Western Standard - Harper lambastes Trudeau on COVID, economy, China

00:00:00.000 I'm just fascinated by this notion that is just everywhere now the so-called woke notion that

00:00:12.960 America is a fundamentally racist country and yet what I see is all these supposedly

00:00:17.440 repressed races trying desperately to become Americans welcome to the American 0.99

00:00:30.280 Optimist I'm Joe Lonsdale we're excited to have our friend and mentor Prime Minister Stephen

00:00:35.140 Harper the 22nd Prime Minister of Canada we're on number 23 right now but you were

00:00:39.580 prime minister for about a decade almost a decade February 2006 to November 2015

00:00:46.600 awesome well welcome to Texas thanks for joining us I'm always glad to be in Texas and be fully

00:00:51.040 vaccinated and and living in the land of the free well you know I want to start by talking a little

00:00:57.740 bit about recoveries because you know Canada was famous under your watch for having probably the

00:01:02.400 best recovery from the recession in 2008 you guys did an amazing job with you and finance minister

00:01:07.280 Flaherty worked with you on that at the time and others what are what are some of the lessons we

00:01:11.520 can learn right now as we're trying to recover from what's going on well look I think it's first it's

00:01:15.840 important to say and I can be very critical of governments in Canada the US anywhere else I think

00:01:21.200 it's important to understand first of all Joe that this crisis really has been unique and very different

00:01:26.120 and more complicated than the time before you know this is a combination pandemic and and economic

00:01:35.120 crisis the solutions for one often being contrary to the solutions for the other but look now that

00:01:41.520 our populations are increasingly vaccinated the focus should be on economic recovery and I think

00:01:49.320 it's actually pretty straightforward but it's the opposite of what governments are doing the solution

00:01:55.620 is to you know run strong market-oriented economic policy and allow the private sector which has been

00:02:05.540 reasonably sustained through this to recover instead what has happened I think it's fascinating study you

00:02:11.620 know in in 08 09 all of us who were in office did so-called economic stimulus and your country and most

00:02:21.540 countries the extraordinary monetary policy my country didn't for obvious reasons because obviously the

00:02:26.260 crisis was not as deep yeah but after that we'd done that what we considered extraordinary policy then it was

00:02:32.180 how do we get back to kind of a normally functioning economy this time you have this fascinating thing

00:02:37.860 where the intervention has been you know in global economic terms it's actually been about 10 times the

00:02:44.320 size 10 times more government spending 10 times more government spending wow than what it was well I'll give you

00:02:49.480 statistics in Canada in Canada and you know we thought I had run a large deficit back in 2009

00:02:57.340 um in Canada last year the fiscal year just completed the deficit of the federal government

00:03:06.080 will be 30 percent higher than my entire last budget if I had not raised a dime in revenue

00:03:11.180 in 2015 my my um my budget balance would have been substantially lower than it actually is that's how

00:03:18.380 much spending governments have done Canada is a bit of an outlier but U.S. is a bit of an outlier too so

00:03:23.720 the levels of spending and intervention is this partially because the parties in charge are just

00:03:28.520 bigger spenders as well or is it more is it is it a good reaction to what's going on but it's it's not

00:03:33.420 a good reaction it's been overkill a lot of spending was necessary but first of all it's it's had a

00:03:38.480 different purpose remember the spending back in 08 09 was to quote stimulate the economy we had a free

00:03:45.200 fall the financial system economic activity was freezing or plummeting yep this time the purpose of the

00:03:51.420 spending has been to sustain incomes without stimulating the economy so you want to help

00:03:55.360 people people could stop working and not work and and we've done that as I say at a scale that's far

00:04:02.460 greater because it's it's you know it's cost far more money to keep people not working and factories

00:04:07.800 not opening etc on an ongoing basis I've seen there's 9.3 million open jobs right now that people

00:04:12.000 aren't filling which is a record exactly and so you have this extraordinary level now you have this

00:04:17.340 extraordinary mentality I think it's extraordinary where governments are saying look this extraordinary

00:04:21.420 economic policy macroeconomic policy has saved us from a complete crash during the pandemic so why

00:04:28.620 can't we just do this forever this is the modern monetary theory modern monetary theory but even even 0.97

00:04:34.380 uh it's even a revival of kind of the ultra keynesianism of the night it seems like a stupid version of 0.77

00:04:41.100 keynesianism it's going to take it to an extreme basically it is all of this you know look this is 0.78

00:04:45.240 not all new I tell people for those of us now who have the gray hair and remember this is all

00:04:50.240 the 19 sort of late 60s 1970s over again just at a pace that is incredibly faster and going to lead to

00:04:57.700 bad consequences much more quickly what what are some of the consequences the first and obvious one is

00:05:02.500 inflation um and by the way um you know I just saw the consumer inflation here hit five percent and

00:05:10.420 that's with all kinds of changes to keep the number down of course all kinds of statistical

00:05:14.200 changes to try and keep the number down but that's only consumer inflation my own view is that we've

00:05:19.680 had inflation for some time now it's been asset inflation it's bubbles bubbles in everything and now

00:05:26.260 you're getting consumer inflation and what happens joe let's say we've been through this movie before

00:05:31.240 what happens is at some point this requires interest rate hikes yep and as soon as you have

00:05:37.320 interest rate hikes you have you have impacts on investment and you have more importantly all of

00:05:46.540 a sudden all this quote affordable government spending is not so affordable um so you know I

00:05:52.440 think I think significant we're kind of boxing it we're kind of boxing ourselves in because you

00:05:55.640 have to raise rates but you can't raise rates at some point and it gets to be a mess

00:05:59.080 yeah this is look this is bad economic policy bad macroeconomic policy on an enormous scale

00:06:05.300 yeah that's a challenge I want to also ask about Canada and the outbreak because a lot of people

00:06:09.980 at the beginning of the pandemic they lauded Canada to handle it a little better uh but now

00:06:13.980 it seems pretty clear that Canada is pretty far behind the U.S. in how it's handling all of this

00:06:17.360 look I always said that um I always cautioned anyone who was saying that a certain country or a certain

00:06:23.660 government had it right and others had it wrong the truth is all in fairness all governments were

00:06:29.620 feeling their way they didn't really know how to manage this and I said wait until this is all over

00:06:35.440 and we say what see what the cumulative impact is on terms of both the virus on the one hand and the

00:06:40.880 economy and the other and that has still hasn't played out totally you know I I was just writing

00:06:46.200 to some clients this week that you know everybody I would say everybody a lot of people have lauded

00:06:51.700 China's success to date in in containing the virus and keeping its economy growing but actually you 0.99

00:06:58.740 now have the Chinese population is now one of the least naturally immunized through infections in

00:07:05.700 the world and one of the least effectively vaccinated populations in the world and actually now

00:07:10.080 the extraordinary level of social and economic control they've had to implement to contain the

00:07:15.360 virus beyond what the communist party normally does they now have is now their only option going

00:07:20.800 forward whereas in a country like this where infection rates have actually been high and

00:07:25.880 vaccination rates are now reasonably high so we're done now yeah U.S. is increasingly done whereas

00:07:31.680 China might have another couple years of this in fact U.S. is one of the few countries that's getting

00:07:36.000 close to this being really over so time will tell um I'm so Canada you know Canada contained the virus

00:07:43.060 early on um but now there's more pain later because you still have to well there's pain later because we

00:07:48.120 were so slow in the vaccination effort what is that indicative of larger problems why were they so slow

00:07:52.140 in vaccination um look I tend not to comment too much on my successor government I'll just say that

00:07:58.560 um um you know people in the opposition and people in the drug industry have explained why

00:08:06.440 Canada was so slow in the vaccination all I'll say is when we were in government we never had any

00:08:11.640 trouble problem making sure we had vaccinations vaccines well in advance and getting them distributed so it's

00:08:17.200 just a matter of competent execution is it a matter also working well with business or is that is that

00:08:22.220 yeah to some degree and the drug industry will say there's poor relations between the federal government

00:08:26.740 and the drug industry have have not helped well let's let's focus on something optimistic about

00:08:31.020 Canada under your leadership there was tremendous growth in small businesses in innovation centers you

00:08:36.800 guys did a lot with Vancouver Waterloo became these kind of roaring powerhouses right I've hired

00:08:41.260 hundreds of people out of those schools and actually we've built started building businesses there as well

00:08:45.020 in Canada uh is is like what does Canada need to do to continue this and to continue becoming strong

00:08:49.720 in innovation so look we'll get a second into the kind of micro things we did but uh you know I think

00:08:55.000 the macro things are really important just creating a good environment for business with low and stable tax

00:09:00.540 rates and um you know and a culture that encourages business and views profit as a good thing under normal

00:09:07.760 circumstances yeah that all helps a special advantage we had in Canada through all that period was our

00:09:14.760 immigration policies especially our our far easier ability in the United States to bring in skilled

00:09:21.120 technical uh people and that's I think still a bit of advantage for Canada that was an advantage

00:09:26.860 them and and did encourage some business to come to Canada we'd also taken another uh number of measures

00:09:33.460 as a government in the venture capital space to try and encourage that ecosystem which was very weak in

00:09:38.100 Canada when we took office so look these are the things you need um you need to continue um um you

00:09:46.520 know I'd also say that Canada even in some of our our bigger schools even on some of our more successful

00:09:53.040 schools in terms of IT people there's a lot more we could be doing we could be trying to scale up

00:09:58.140 those programs a lot more they could be a lot bigger a lot more yeah that makes sense and and and

00:10:02.760 discussing business uh we talk a lot about some of the issues with China and you know during this

00:10:07.620 crisis obviously there's a lot of problems with supply chains who knows what you can get from

00:10:11.000 China and India uh you know on on my side what you're getting yeah or what you're getting you

00:10:15.420 know on my side you know we've spent over a billion dollars at 8bc building biomanufacturing in the

00:10:19.080 U.S. in Canada recently just because you know we're worried about where we can get things from

00:10:22.840 otherwise it's a valuable expertise to have here like is I mean I guess more bluntly is globalization

00:10:27.240 over are we still are we still gonna be working with the whole rest of the world how do we think about

00:10:30.860 these challenges well I don't think global globalization is over you know Joe I wrote a

00:10:34.800 book on this right here right now and and the book was essentially talking about the problems of

00:10:39.000 globalization and some aspects of post-cold-war market policy and how we had to adjust them and

00:10:44.980 I wasn't suggesting it was over I was just suggesting it had to be a lot smarter you know for example and

00:10:50.600 this is the obvious one when we're talking about medical supply chains surely it always made sense even

00:11:00.320 in the era of globalization even in the coming era to make sure that critical security and its

00:11:06.740 supply chains are not in the hands of of countries that are not necessarily friendly to your national

00:11:11.120 security yes um I mean this is well they are because Taiwan produces so much that we use for

00:11:16.180 these some of these things well Taiwan yes but obviously which is not China but then not mainland

00:11:20.660 China but we saw this in a whole range of things you know for instance Canada United States depending on

00:11:24.820 Russia to launch satellites and who thought of this kind of stuff yeah um you know all the kind of

00:11:31.080 at the end of the cold war kind of all common sense on economic interaction related national security just

00:11:37.780 went out the window and we just assumed everybody easier easier as a friend or is going to be a friend

00:11:42.600 in short order so we can trust them with anything and and obviously so that that has to change but I think

00:11:49.620 so I think going forward there are two things that have to be done as I say one there has to be a

00:11:56.180 realistic assessment about you know who are countries who are not friendly or dependable on

00:12:02.720 on security matters and in those areas making sure not just that your supply chains are not dependent

00:12:10.180 on those but make sure there is redundancy in terms of sources of supply I don't think it's just a matter

00:12:15.320 of bringing it and bringing it you know on shore sometimes you have multiple other countries you can work with

00:12:20.980 yeah or I don't think it's necessary in the government's interest to create even within the country a monopoly

00:12:26.060 supply chain you still want redundancy and you still want options but let's make sure those options are

00:12:31.360 certainly not as a minimum exclusively in countries that are not dependable yeah yeah

00:12:36.520 that makes sense is is is Taiwan something you're at all worried about the next 10 or 20 years

00:12:40.940 like should if we keep something in Taiwan that's critical should we also have a backup because China

00:12:45.420 could so easily blockade Taiwan or how do well look when I say I'm worried about Taiwan be clear

00:12:49.200 I'm not worried about the Taiwanese no of course you're worried about China China doing something

00:12:53.500 yeah I'm worried about I think there's growing worries in national security circles that in a much

00:12:59.140 sooner time frame than people once thought that China may try to actually forcefully take my my view

00:13:06.100 on this is that you know Sun Tzu said never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake

00:13:10.060 and I feel like China would be interrupting North American regimes that are quite broken right now and

00:13:15.160 therefore they that it would actually make the regimes look quite bad in North America and so

00:13:18.920 therefore they're going to wait to do this what do you think of that um I'm look I'm not betting on

00:13:24.800 it happening in the next two years but whereas 10 years ago I would have said the chances of that

00:13:30.540 happening were zero I no longer think that's the case but you know it wasn't very long ago I would

00:13:35.520 have told you that it was not in the interests of the People's Republic of China to end to

00:13:40.960 completely end Hong Kong's autonomy yeah and unique the unique system and so and and by the way that

00:13:48.360 wasn't quite the same thing as a seizure because it technically was part of China but under international

00:13:54.180 treaty and law China had an obligation to treat Hong Kong as an autonomous region with a completely

00:14:02.200 different system of government and they flagrantly violated that commitment if you were in charge

00:14:06.720 when they had done that would there have been more repercussions um I would have hoped there'd be more

00:14:12.800 repercussions look I have to qualify that Joe because as Prime Minister of Canada I couldn't have led

00:14:16.720 repercussions you would have had to work with your allies certainly I would have urged our allies to

00:14:21.380 respond more forcefully to that I think one of the responses that could have been considered was

00:14:27.260 you know if you do not restore your obligations or or stop stop the transformation of Hong Kong

00:14:35.340 then we will recognize Taiwan as a separate entity and and you were part of the G7 for over a decade

00:14:41.700 what should the G7 be doing with regard to this with regard to make China behave better like how

00:14:46.800 could they work together to actually give us an optimistic solution well that's the key is to work

00:14:50.600 together the key is to work together we we have to you know I I um we're discussing this as you know

00:14:58.700 I a chair group called the IDU you spoke at the Global Federation of Conservative Parties and we're

00:15:03.100 discussing you know what kind of of common approaches could we take to China to incent better behavior

00:15:12.600 and to better protect our own interests I think we all believe that you know unlike the Soviet Union 0.91

00:15:19.440 of the Cold War there are China is not not everything about China is bad and there are opportunities in

00:15:27.280 China so how can we kind of exploit the the better side of the of the Chinese system while minimizing the 0.97

00:15:34.160 risks of the of the the negative side and but look it requires a common approach let me give a practical

00:15:39.740 example of that when you know the Chinese decide to punish Australia cut out it cut its exports put on

00:15:47.260 tariffs etc yeah when you know they ask reasonable questions about the virus um what we should be

00:15:54.900 doing as other Western countries is having a shared rebuttal of that not us all trying to figure out how

00:15:59.320 we get Australia exports taken to us instead because that divide and that divide and conquer behavior is a

00:16:06.460 really serious long-term problem yeah it seems like a really messy silly way to run things that we're just

00:16:10.740 trying to take advantage instead of working together against them yeah so it does look um prior to

00:16:15.520 you know but let's be clear about the environment prior to President Trump there was not an agreed there was

00:16:24.100 not an agreed posture in any Western country that China was actually a long-term threat now it happened

00:16:30.380 to be my view but it was I can tell you it was not really shared so very many people your view only became

00:16:35.600 more common after after Trump was yeah well Trump transformed that view in both parties in the

00:16:41.080 United States but then but Trump transformed the view but he did not actually have a strategy certainly

00:16:45.580 not one involving allies he didn't he wasn't able to work with others to get anything done so now you

00:16:50.460 know the opportunity um is to take you know I think Trump's more accurate read of the challenges

00:16:56.780 of the situation and turn it into a common proactive strategy but you know that does require some

00:17:03.380 toughness I by the way I see evidence the Biden administration is is trying to develop a strategy

00:17:08.180 and working with allies but the real question around the present administration is when pushed

00:17:13.120 will it you know will it have back will show courage yeah I want to talk a little bit more about about

00:17:18.500 America in general we started the show because there's a wave of pessimism swooping across America

00:17:23.640 lately many of us believe that our best days are behind us some people don't even believe America

00:17:27.660 was great to begin with uh they're very skeptical of a lot of the values uh you know what are the ideas and

00:17:33.020 principles behind America's founding mean to you I obviously didn't run America you ran Canada but

00:17:37.100 what what do they mean to you what are they meant to the world like like like is are these principles

00:17:40.640 important for the world well first of all when I when I think about you know as as a prime minister

00:17:45.060 of Canada I don't think of them in terms of America's principle I think of them kind of as the

00:17:48.720 common western and particularly Anglo-American heritage that Canada is a part of yeah but first of all

00:17:54.620 let's let's be clear what the problem is um you know the there are those who have an assessment

00:18:02.440 that you know as you say better days are behind us that the future is not as optimistic and that's

00:18:08.380 you know that's an assessment that one can reasonably or not reasonably have but you said

00:18:12.940 another one that America never those who the America never was very good to begin with that's the real

00:18:18.060 problem Joe the real problem in the west and let me talk about the west more than America although

00:18:22.900 you know this is the flagship country the real problem in the west is not um that our prospects

00:18:29.920 are not good it's elements in our own countries and our societies that do not want us to succeed

00:18:35.540 yeah they do not want to tear down the current system they want to tear down um the modern left

00:18:40.940 um you know well called Marxist often is is is not really socialist it's nihilist its ethics are

00:18:49.800 entirely nihilist and it's all about ripping everything down um I could go into you know all

00:18:56.920 the reasons why I think this is so it doesn't really matter what the explanation for it is it's all bad

00:19:03.120 and it needs to be fought and opposed yep and you know the the the desire we all have to make

00:19:11.200 constant change in our program progress in our societies um should not have as its as its assumption

00:19:18.180 that everything is wrong and terrible and awful quite the contrary it's that um our societies are

00:19:25.240 sufficiently good at their core that this kind of progress is always possible and um you know look

00:19:32.780 Canada the United States obviously speaks specifically in my own country and I I can see lots of things

00:19:37.720 wrong with my own country you can see lots wrong with yours but yet I can tell you travel around

00:19:42.620 the world and there's not there's no other time in history and no other place you'd rather be

00:19:46.580 um you know I say the great contradiction I I was you know I watch American politics um um um you know

00:19:55.080 almost uh in in in great quantities uh the reason I do is I I kind of ignore the politics of my own

00:20:01.540 country because I'm too emotional emotional about it so I can be an analyst on U.S. affairs um and so

00:20:09.120 you know I watch um I I watch American politics all the time and I'm I'm uh you know I'm just fascinated

00:20:16.500 by this notion that is just everywhere now the so-called woke notion that America is a fundamentally

00:20:22.560 a racist country and yet what I see is all these supposedly repressed races trying desperately to 1.00

00:20:28.860 become Americans and to join the United States um so you know it's not that there aren't problems

00:20:34.680 uh historical and present that are real but the core of our countries are great and they have great

00:20:41.900 futures and there is no alternative the adolescent egos of the woke university crowd is not an alternative

00:20:49.860 governing philosophy for any society and where is this a liberalism coming from that you say as you

00:20:56.020 this is complicated you call it nihilist but there's also there's this it's new on the left

00:21:00.040 to have this illiberalism right and that's something that we didn't really have that as much or did or

00:21:03.440 do we always have this mass well it's always been on it's always been on the extreme left uh you know

00:21:07.320 but but but it's but it's kind of so it's leaked into the rest of society what the far left and the

00:21:11.100 far right haven't always have in common they're both illiberal yeah they're both illiberal but the but

00:21:15.020 more more of the left seems to have taken but if you look you know go right back to Marx and Engels

00:21:19.900 it's and which i'm actually very knowledgeable i mean it was always illiberal yeah it's always

00:21:26.140 illiberal and and you know anyone who says that you know Marxism was um was was distorted into

00:21:33.220 totalitarianism by the soviets or the chinese whoever is missing you know is missing the whole 0.91

00:21:38.420 you read original Marxism it the totalitarianism is at its root um you know Marx Marx view was that

00:21:47.000 um and you know you hear the same terms thrown around today that his opinions were not opinions

00:21:51.620 they were science and anyone who disagreed with his thoughts on what is happening today or what will

00:21:57.900 happen in the future is not merely wrong on the issue he is going against the fundamental science

00:22:04.120 of humanity so Marx would say you're going against science and he disagreed with me a lot and therefore

00:22:08.120 and therefore because because you're simply arguing against facts you know then then you you get to the

00:22:14.320 kind of soviet mentality that all dissent is essentially a mental illness or something that

00:22:19.180 needs to be re-educated and corrected or banned from social media and this and this has been this has

00:22:23.780 been that that crowds philosophy going back by the way before Marx to Russo and others and it's become

00:22:30.400 now you know since the 60s very large in university movements is this i mean are we at a cultural

00:22:36.380 tipping point this is spread everywhere is this going to continue or reaching a peak like how is this

00:22:40.080 going to play out if uh i i hope it doesn't if it plays out our societies fail so we have to fight

00:22:46.740 it our societies fail yeah so so how do we fight i believe i believe that i believe that you know in

00:22:53.500 in terms of there there is a there is i think uh it's not maybe as stark as it was in the cold war but

00:23:00.260 there is a uh competition of systems right now there's no doubt about it a a more not a not a certain

00:23:08.120 by no means a truly free market kind of american model but a market-oriented american model

00:23:13.160 essentially in spite of all of its non-market aspects essentially driven by private enterprise

00:23:19.440 and private innovation and there is a chinese model which is all about state control and using

00:23:24.840 markets as a tool of state control for economic and political totalitarian society that lets markets

00:23:31.080 work and uses them i'm not sure i'd call it totalitarianism but certainly an authoritarian

00:23:34.820 authoritarian capitalist model yep um and you think that's what would come here if this liberalism

00:23:41.280 wanted i think that is the main challenge that is the main challenge that's the main challenge from

00:23:44.680 china the united states and look what i argue that democracies i i i hope i believe and i kind of

00:23:52.220 believe i must admit i'm getting a bit more pessimistic i kind of believe in hope will triumph

00:23:56.840 i always tell people this is because democratic societies democratic capitalist societies and and i think

00:24:04.000 the two are inseparable by the way um the reason we succeed over time is not because we ever quite

00:24:11.960 get it right in fact our societies are too complicated and pluralistic to ever get it exactly right

00:24:17.540 it's that when we make mistakes they tend to correct over time you know eventually the worst problem

00:24:25.800 there's there's self-correcting mechanisms where authoritarian societies don't have as many

00:24:29.380 self-correcting mechanisms no they have the opposite yeah they double the governments double down on

00:24:32.760 mistakes tyrants yeah authoritarians must double down because the claim to an authoritarian's claim

00:24:39.480 to power is that he is specially gifted and always right as soon as authoritarian says oh that was a real

00:24:44.820 screw-up um that's kind of the end of his of of you know then somebody else says well i'm the guy who

00:24:51.960 will never screw up not you so and you know like mouse mousey dung is the extreme example that just

00:24:58.620 every decade just kept up bigger mistakes than the decade before um and you know dung ultimately

00:25:04.720 corrected that as within the context of that system with with collective leadership and the

00:25:09.460 experiment with markets etc i was told by my mentors that lee kuan yu was a huge influence on

00:25:14.140 lee kuan yu was was yeah lee kuan yu is example lee kuan yu is kind of because he's a bit of a mixed model

00:25:19.680 but but lee kuan obviously in a very different environment lee kuan yu is um um um you know lee

00:25:26.340 kuan yu is a rare exception because as i say almost all dictate all dictatorships for life almost always

00:25:33.480 end in tyranny and stagnation neither of which happened with lee kuan yu ran singapore for 55 years

00:25:39.820 neither of which happened singapore continued its dynamic growth all through his time in office

00:25:44.800 and and you know it's certainly a quasi-authoritarian state but it didn't get worse

00:25:49.340 on that regard in fact it actually got something i think it seems like the lesson from the last

00:25:53.280 several decades is that you have to be uh authoritarian to get past maybe 10 or 12 years

00:25:57.220 in office that seems to be the rule maybe look i guess what i was saying so so this is why i think

00:26:01.620 democracies will prevail but let's be under no illusion we will still only prevail in the end

00:26:07.520 if we make better decisions than they do and right now it is i don't think it's whether it's

00:26:14.080 economics or the virus or anything i don't think you have to be a really deep political analyst to say

00:26:20.220 that generally speaking the chinas have been making better decisions in the last couple of years than

00:26:25.620 democracies yep yep well hopefully will that self-correct and maybe there's natural limits

00:26:31.620 but remember that what's so threatening about what i say is the kind of far woke left is that

00:26:39.920 it's trying to end the democratic system i mean it's not just trying to you know pass big deficits in

00:26:46.680 modern monetary theory and new education systems it's trying to stuff out any opposition to those

00:26:52.860 things its goal is authoritarianism stop you stop freeze freedom of speech freedom of conscience freedom

00:26:58.400 freedom of thought freedom of property but that but that uh that will not succeed because that

00:27:02.700 authoritarianism is so is so obviously inferior and incompetent to the chinese version that it cannot 1.00

00:27:08.840 possibly yeah prevail that incompetence won't prevail i tend to think that china is not going to allow

00:27:12.940 enough creative destruction that will be required by the innovation coming in the next 10 or 20 years

00:27:16.440 and that maybe is an optimistic thing that we'll hopefully be able to be better to deal with

00:27:19.460 in north america yeah i'm look i think there's every reason to believe especially you know i come to this

00:27:24.800 country um look the dynamism of this country the entrepreneurial dynamism in this country is just

00:27:33.460 impossible to ignore no matter how heavy-handed the the role of government becomes or large it becomes

00:27:41.100 this is just such an entrepreneurial culture and so freedom-oriented in terms of personal behavior

00:27:50.180 by the way i happen to think that this largely explains the rise of china the rise of china is not

00:27:56.880 explained by you know that they came up with a genius political system it's that dung siao ping 0.79

00:28:02.800 did sufficient reform to unleash the naturally entrepreneurial nature of of the chinese nation

00:28:08.820 chinese nation after the amer after americans is the most entrepreneurial culture in the world yeah

00:28:14.640 and he managed to they're free enough to be entrepreneurial again with incredible they've

00:28:19.960 accomplished incredible and and are able to work with our systems very well as well of course yeah

00:28:24.020 they've accomplished incredible things under what's still a highly restrictive system so

00:28:28.040 um but look i it's hard for me america has to go a lot farther than it's gone to suppress that

00:28:34.660 side of its culture so that's a big challenge is where america is going to go what lessons can we

00:28:39.420 learn so you you want to you led two minority governments the majority government in 2011

00:28:44.120 and you obviously were working in a somewhat polarized era as well it's probably even more polarized today but

00:28:49.440 like what what what are the lessons we could take from that to work in this well first of all

00:28:53.080 in fairness canada's political culture then and now is far less polarized than in the united states

00:28:59.500 and and the underlying polarization of your political culture in my view is a serious problem i don't

00:29:05.760 really you know how changing changing cultures you know this as an entrepreneur changing cultures is a lot

00:29:12.700 harder than changing policies and especially when you're talking about mass cultures historically rooted

00:29:18.780 at u.s polarization of u.s society has been in my observation growing for at least 30 years well

00:29:25.440 when culture goes wrong with our institutions we create new ones in the tech world right it's harder

00:29:29.600 to do that although could we be creating new institutions around in the within the u.s to help

00:29:33.380 with that are functional versus some of the things we have now look i don't know i just say go back to

00:29:37.020 my canadian example i had a less polarized culture the other thing i had was our system of government

00:29:43.680 um our system of government i i i told barack obama when he our first conversation when he was

00:29:51.340 uh president and i was prime minister and we were talking about challenges and opportunities in front

00:29:56.440 of us i told him he then had a majority in both houses of congress and a super majority in the senate

00:30:02.420 i told him he had less ability to get things done under that those circumstances than i did with a

00:30:08.960 minority in both houses in fact wow i was not only a minority in the lower house i was not even the

00:30:15.000 largest party in the upper house and i still had more ability to get things done why is that

00:30:19.980 it's because in the parliamentary system you not only have the concentration of authority in the lower

00:30:25.100 house but it's a double-edged sword the government either gets to govern or there's an election

00:30:31.700 which means your opponents cannot they cannot adopt the strategy of defeating you regardless of the

00:30:37.760 consequences they have to consider the consequences for themselves whenever they vote things down so

00:30:43.840 i had the option of a combat a combination of tools that a president does not have that makes

00:30:48.880 us more polarized here yeah i had people i had p you know i had obviously ways of getting people to

00:30:53.620 vote for me i had ways of getting deal but i also had ways of push of making other people support

00:30:59.300 me whether they wanted to or not and and the president does not and you use that to rein in a lot of

00:31:03.720 government spending and be very responsible is that something we could do here too though or just

00:31:07.680 with the polarization it's too hard you think yeah i think the pro i think so i think on the kind of

00:31:15.060 the mismanagement especially the mismanagement of your fiscal policy and i really you know i know

00:31:19.640 quote america is a reserve currency but i like i will assure you that not only can great powers go

00:31:24.740 bankrupt they have in history and it's often a reason they cease to be great powers you look at

00:31:29.440 france in the 18th century that's essentially what happened um this is not strictly a problem of a

00:31:36.780 presidency or a political party both political parties in the united states at the national level

00:31:42.620 have been on a trajectory to simply not care about the overall fiscal policy for some time

00:31:49.360 yep the only the only priority if i'm be blunt here the only priority the democratic party has been

00:31:55.360 to maximize government spending regardless of how it is financed yep and the only policy of the

00:32:00.120 republican party has been to minimize taxation regardless of levels of spending yeah and you

00:32:05.600 know and so the agreement has been we'll spend as much as possible and tax as little as you'll

00:32:09.120 compromise tax nothing nobody cares about the deficit because we can apparently borrow without

00:32:13.780 limit do you want a lot of dollars yourself or would you not try to hold too many of those for the

00:32:17.520 next five years um i'm increasingly um i'm increasingly i operate a u.s dollar business

00:32:24.380 because it's global business yeah um but my personal uh accounts i look i still hold u.s dollars

00:32:31.600 because the options aren't great but i do increasingly hold precious metals you want you want to diversify

00:32:36.420 as well yeah i know i'm i'm very concerned about uh the u.s cannot i don't know how long it goes on joe

00:32:42.480 i'm just telling you that the people believe the united states can continue to borrow countless

00:32:46.940 trillions of dollars at zero percent not only do i believe that's not true i believe that's

00:32:51.380 actually coming to an end much quicker than people and what and what turn what turns this around

00:32:55.280 though well i say inflation and sometimes inflation it'll be painful but hopefully we'll learn the

00:33:00.200 lesson inflation inflation interest rates begin to rise interest rates on u.s securities begin to rise

00:33:07.260 now what i think the worry is and i hope will be avoided in the united states may not be avoided in

00:33:13.500 other countries is once those rates rise this is and this is what happened in 0809 in certain

00:33:19.420 european countries is once those rates rise and there's a huge debt stock sometimes then markets

00:33:25.120 panic and rates just go astronomical and suddenly you're in a debt crisis yep i don't think the u.s

00:33:29.780 will hit that wall that quickly but i think other countries could hopefully we'll learn from it

00:33:34.540 i want to ask you one more question sure about the middle east and you've you are you led the

00:33:38.220 help laid the coalition to destroy isis you've been a big supporter of israel you talk a lot

00:33:42.820 obviously you condemn the recent attacks by hamas in israel and you don't like the moral equivalence

00:33:46.460 but people i'm actually chairman of a kind of honorary chairman of organization called the friends

00:33:51.560 of israel initiative which unites is about uh about three dozen of us former high office holders

00:33:57.720 non-jewish who work to defend and promote israel at the international level and you seem like

00:34:03.060 optimistic about the abrahamic accords and what was accomplished with uae and israel and the best

00:34:07.300 story of 2020 you know as we were all locked in our basements i guess the other good story of 2020

00:34:12.140 was how how good video conferencing really because can you imagine like i can tell you 10 years ago

00:34:18.620 doing a video conference as prime minister was like pulling my father-in-law's firm was it was

00:34:23.500 invested in zoom early on so they had a good good year with yeah and and you know say thank god that

00:34:27.940 happened just in time because otherwise our economies really would have shut down but um so that was one

00:34:34.060 good story but the uh the real the real good geopolitical story of 2020 was um not just the

00:34:40.780 sunni arabs and the israelis coming and and with obviously with the west with president trump the

00:34:47.020 united states coming together in a peace pact but i think the real fantastic story was framing it as

00:34:54.640 the reconciliation of religions taking that stick away from the jihadists and away from much more

00:35:02.640 malevolent actors yep casting the common heritage of judaism christianity and islam as a uniting

00:35:09.900 factor and you know i just at a time when you know i think one of the biggest threats we face in the

00:35:15.540 world besides you know the different chinese model a much more malevolent threat is the theocratic 1.00

00:35:21.220 nuclear weapons seeking regime in iran and the very fact that there could be an alliance not just built

00:35:28.820 around kind of an alliance of convenience enemy of my enemy but also around common principles and

00:35:35.420 purpose i think that was a tremendous story when you were prime minister were you allowed to fly from

00:35:38.980 israel to the uae or do you also did you also have to stop somewhere else i always had to stop

00:35:42.140 somewhere else it's a new thing now you're allowed to go between last year uh in last fall i did a

00:35:46.520 little bit of international travel last year as best i could don't tell it trudeau he doesn't like that

00:35:50.620 no well this was before there was the kind of the outrage about it um no i i i did a business trip to

00:35:57.380 the i've done business in the united arab emirates and i've done business in israel and for the first

00:36:03.320 time in my life i was able to fly to both countries at the same time on the same passport

00:36:08.180 because before you'd use different words before you had to make sure that some didn't see which

00:36:12.460 sticker had what on it i always had the backups yeah so it's it's it's great and it's it's fully

00:36:17.540 embraced like it really is my my friends in the uae are just so bullish on israel right now from the

00:36:22.500 top it's really cool and i do business in both places too so i'm excited to see it it's very

00:36:26.600 exciting well it's not optimistic no thank thank you for your support of israel all over the years

00:36:29.860 as a jew and so much well i think look i tell people it's not just the matter of a jew i uh being

00:36:35.380 a jew i i'm not a jew i supported israel because israel's long-term interests and threats parallel the

00:36:42.940 interests and threats faced by american and canadian society so as an american with western values

00:36:47.380 should be important to us if we if we are not prepared to stand on the front lines with israel

00:36:52.060 against those fundamental threats to free and democratic societies and we are jeopardizing our

00:36:56.540 own long-term interests was a view that i was very clear on in office and to all of our allies and by

00:37:01.420 the way i thought this latest um this latest conflict even though you had the normal you know liberal

00:37:08.540 media trying to you know urge uh urge israel to surrender when it's winning uh the normal the normal

00:37:15.280 line of course um the fact was that there was far more overt support from western governments for

00:37:22.160 israel this time than we'd seen in the past you know i think of my friend sebastian kurz and austria

00:37:26.720 actually flying the israeli flag in support of israel during the conflict with hamas you think it's

00:37:31.120 easier to do that with the abraham of the cords already having happen i think that helps i also think

00:37:35.360 they're even i think you know as europe has not been as friendly to israel as the united states or

00:37:39.440 canada but i think there's increasing with the rise of jihadism in europe there is increasing

00:37:44.780 understanding that you know israel faces threats that are not that that is it is not not only not

00:37:52.340 israel's faults they those threats can easily come to their own shores well that makes sense well it's 0.77

00:37:57.000 like some of the accomplishments released a bright spot in the last year yeah it was a it was a very

00:38:00.660 bright spot and uh you know i say we've got through the pandemic and let's let's just hope that we

00:38:06.580 let's just hope that we come around on economics i i you know joe the way i describe what's happening

00:38:12.680 right now is what a lot of whether it's you know kind of these hyper keynesian or bastardized keynesian

00:38:19.880 fiscal policy guys or the modern monetary theorists they're trying to convince the population

00:38:25.760 that the fundamental principle of economic science is untrue the fundamental principle of economic science

00:38:31.540 is that human desires and wants always outnumber available resources and you have to make choices

00:38:37.660 they're trying to convince everybody you don't have to make choices you can have wealth go to work or not

00:38:43.020 work whenever you feel like it and there will be no implications on your taxation or your standard

00:38:48.680 living or your interest rate or inflation or anything else it's you can just have whatever you want all

00:38:52.900 the time and production doesn't matter and that's false and um so as i say hopefully you know we'll

00:39:00.760 we'll be taught a lesson very quick over time we'll learn the good ideas well thank you very much for

00:39:04.760 thanks for joining us thanks for having me joe

00:39:06.680 you

Western Standard - July 28, 2021

Harper lambastes Trudeau on COVID, economy, China

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