Western Standard - How an American from Wyoming became the best premier Alberta never had

00:00:00.000 There are few people who didn't become Premier who are more consequential in the politics of

00:00:24.000 Alberta than Ted Morton. Ted Morton has just written his autobiography. Ted Morton is with us tonight.

00:00:32.000 Welcome Ted. Thank you Nigel. I'm happy to be here with you. Great to have you Ted. It's a tremendous

00:00:39.840 record of public service. Let's just do a quick fact check for people who were still in grade

00:00:47.840 school when you were in politics. We're all getting older so Ted Morton was. I think everybody

00:00:57.680 knows you're a University of Calgary professor and that you're part of the famous Calgary School of

00:01:02.960 Politics which informed Prime Minister Harper. You also signed the firewall letter and I'm going to

00:01:10.480 ask you to explain that because that was 25 years ago or nearly. You also did a stint for

00:01:17.680 policy for the Reform Party back in 2001. In Ottawa yes. I mean it's a great thing to

00:01:24.240 have on your resume. You become a sort of a scholar practitioner. It also cured me of ever wanting to

00:01:31.760 go to Ottawa. A lot of people wanted me to go as an MP and I said no. If I'm going to get into politics

00:01:39.120 it's going to be in Edmonton. And you were elected a senator-in-waiting so that could have so easily

00:01:44.880 gone wrong for you couldn't it? You never got appointed but. Maybe thankfully but I shouldn't

00:01:50.480 say that but yeah okay. Yeah no no we want to elect our senators here. But I think even more important

00:01:57.600 for the purposes of this discussion for 10 years you were in the bear pit of Alberta politics.

00:02:04.400 You held three top flight ministries energy, environment, I guess they call it sustainable resource

00:02:12.960 development but it was the ministry of hunting and shooting and fishing and of property rights. And

00:02:20.080 then of course you were a minister of finance. And you made a very serious run at becoming premier of

00:02:27.840 the province. I want to come back to that too. But federally and provincially Ted you've seen it all

00:02:34.320 from the inside. And I have the scars to prove it. And you've got some funny stories I see as well.

00:02:44.160 But I've known you for nearly 25 years Ted and I think it was actually Danielle Smith who introduced

00:02:49.760 us back in the corridor of the Calgary Herald editorial board. But you always struck me as

00:02:55.840 somebody a little bit in the Stephen Harper mould who wanted not so much to be something as to do

00:03:03.040 something. And that little resume that we've just been over is a record of doing things. Maybe they

00:03:08.400 weren't always as successful as you intended but you were there because you wanted to see change and

00:03:16.320 change in in the conservative mould. And this is actually here's a pre-release copy. I need to

00:03:26.160 strong and free. That's the book. And I guess it's going to be available in bookstores throughout

00:03:32.480 Alberta next next Wednesday. Two days time. September 25th yes. September the 25th. And I'm not even going

00:03:42.560 to tell you what the price is because the price is offered its bargain for the information on the

00:03:47.440 law that's contained in here. But here's the thing. It's a different sort of political memoir Ted.

00:03:53.360 What you so often get is somebody's quest for self-gratification, a little malice perhaps and

00:04:01.680 some self-exculpatory paragraphs. And this book is not like that at all. It's more of a history

00:04:09.840 of a mission by a lot of people. Like when you go through the index it takes a while and you suddenly

00:04:15.120 see I know these people. This person and this person and this person. Everybody who has had anything to do

00:04:20.480 with the Grand Canadian March or the Grand Alberta March. The Alberta March yes. The Alberta March is

00:04:26.480 probably going to see themselves or somebody they know very well in the index. And then of course like

00:04:31.280 everybody they'll look to see whether they're in it and so forth. Now here's the thing. When you

00:04:36.400 became an activist Ted, when all this started, what was driving you? Was it Senate reform?

00:04:43.120 Well, in the beginning, yes. At a deeper level, I became aware in the first decade that I was

00:04:54.160 teaching at the university. So that's the 1980s of Alberta's history and the imbalance between

00:05:01.520 Western Canada and Central Canada. Not just the recent imbalance, but you know, going right back to

00:05:09.600 the confederation 1905 that all the other provinces got their natural resources, crown resources upon

00:05:17.520 becoming provinces. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba did not. That took a 25-year battle to just to get

00:05:25.600 that equality. And the Senate reform, again, with my American background and coming from a small state,

00:05:33.040 Wyoming in the U.S., I saw how the U.S. Senate protected the smaller states to defend their

00:05:40.320 interest and something that didn't happen here in Canada. So the Senate reform, the reform party,

00:05:46.160 that was my entree, I guess, into Alberta politics. So, Ted, why did it matter to you? You came from the

00:05:56.160 United States. You could have gone back there if you like that system, but you decided you wanted to

00:06:01.360 change Alberta. Why? I think like thousands or tens of thousands of other people that have come to

00:06:09.120 Alberta from other places, I fell in love with it. We have the mountains, the foothills, the prairies,

00:06:16.960 incredibly beautiful province, a wonderful culture too. I think it's very much a meritocracy.

00:06:25.360 Certainly the Alberta, the Calgary I grew up in, people didn't care, you know, where you were from.

00:06:31.920 What church you belong to or no church or what, if you could, if you were hard working, honest and

00:06:38.720 committed, they wanted you on the team. So I think that has been part of Alberta's success. Part of the

00:06:46.080 success in an abstract way, I guess, for liberal democracies everywhere. I wanted to, I want to keep

00:06:52.880 that. And I could see in many respects, it's very much under attack, even then and even more so now.

00:06:59.920 So it's, we have something very good here in Alberta and it's worth fighting to defend it.

00:07:05.520 Well, I 100% agree with you on that. What did we actually achieve in terms of Senate reform?

00:07:15.760 Zero. The Senate reform thing, in theory, it makes sense. It's not just the United States,

00:07:25.360 I've been to Australia, I've actually spoken to the Australian Senate, why Canada wants what,

00:07:31.040 what us, or at least Western Canada wants, what Australia has. It's a way for the less populated 1.00

00:07:39.360 regions to articulate and defend their interest in a legitimate way.

00:07:44.000 So in theory, all other federal, mature federal states have a second chamber, a Senate or something

00:07:52.320 like a Senate to allow for that and to create the balance. We don't. And we've paid a price for it,

00:08:00.000 both nationally, but particularly provincially. But it's not going to happen now. The Supreme Court,

00:08:07.760 when Stephen Harper was Prime Minister, of course, he brought in some draft legislation to create

00:08:15.520 voluntary, non-mandatory elections for other provinces like Alberta has. The Supreme Court

00:08:21.840 declared it unconstitutional. In my opinion, I've written about this, a very, very weak, and frankly,

00:08:28.560 I think, I better be careful what I say, a very weak opinion. And then also, in the mid-90s,

00:08:36.000 the Chrétien government passed something called the Regional Veto Act, which says the federal

00:08:41.680 government won't approve any constitutional amendments unless all the provinces, or at least,

00:08:47.440 well, specifically, if Quebec doesn't approve it, Ottawa won't. So Senate reform is dead. And I would,

00:08:54.720 in theory, it's a great idea, it would address our issues, but it's not going to happen

00:08:58.640 in my lifetime or your lifetime. I think provincial abolishing the Senate would be a much more fruitful

00:09:04.960 way to approach things. And I think, you know, part of our plan was more Alberta in Ottawa or less

00:09:14.960 Ottawa in Alberta. And the more Alberta in Ottawa, that was Senate reform, and it hasn't worked. I don't

00:09:20.880 think it's going to work anytime soon. So the alternative is less Ottawa in Alberta. And that's

00:09:27.360 what the firewall is about. And I think that's what Daniel Smith's Sovereignty Act is about.

00:09:32.480 Well, you wrote in the firewall letter that a referendum in Alberta on a clear question,

00:09:40.720 such as on equalization, could lead to meaningful negotiation. Now, we had a referendum.

00:09:48.720 And we got a clear majority on a clear question. I thought it was clear. Nothing happened.

00:09:57.680 No. And so you could say it was a waste of time. I don't think it was. The clear majority on a clear

00:10:03.840 question. Those aren't my words. Those are the words from the Supreme Court of Canada. And that was

00:10:08.480 their answer to Quebec, the Quebec secession reference. And of course, when it's Quebec that's

00:10:15.840 knocking on the door and asking, surprise, surprise, the justices pay much closer attention to keeping

00:10:23.840 everybody happy. So they said, with respect to a referendum to secede, for Quebec to leave,

00:10:30.160 that if there was a clear majority on a clear question, constitutional question,

00:10:34.320 then there was a duty to negotiate. So that's the Supreme Court that said that. That's now a

00:10:40.080 constitutional precedent. And in the Constitution, it didn't say just for Quebec. It said,

00:10:48.960 it said in general terms, it applies to everybody. So did the liberals ignore it? Of course they

00:10:54.160 ignored it. But it's worth, it's a way of mobilizing public support and raising public awareness of the

00:11:01.200 double standard, the hypocrisy, certainly of the liberal party, federal liberal party, but also,

00:11:06.800 I'm afraid to say the Supreme Court, where there's one standard or one rule for Quebec,

00:11:12.240 and then a different set of rules for the rest of us. And it didn't result in yet in changes in

00:11:21.280 equalization. I think it raised awareness, consciousness, and it's a fight worth fighting.

00:11:26.560 We're still losing close to $20 billion a year in net transfers out of province to Ottawa,

00:11:32.960 and most of it goes to Quebec. Yes. Well, I think that's one of those realities,

00:11:38.640 like the legality of the Income Tax Act, that you can have a very refined discussion and probably

00:11:44.320 win the argument, but in the end, the system rolls along and they just can't afford to lose the money,

00:11:49.840 so they find a way. That's my opinion, not yours, of course. But here's the, before we leave the

00:11:59.120 Senate, we've just had two Alberta appointments. And you said five minutes ago that abolition of the

00:12:05.680 Senate might be a step forward. And I look at the two recent appointments and I have to agree.

00:12:11.360 I have to agree, exactly. Was there a message there?

00:12:18.800 Well, not only could almost no Albertans tell you who our senators are, but I can tell you

00:12:26.400 that in the caucus, in the government up in Edmonton, no caucus members or even cabinet ministers

00:12:35.040 could tell you who could name more than at the most, one or two senators. When we would go to Ottawa,

00:12:41.200 you didn't, if we had a real Senate, you'd go to Ottawa and spend time with your senators,

00:12:45.760 because that would be the forum in which the smaller, less populated provinces could articulate

00:12:50.640 and defend our interest. But the Senate is meaningless. It's just a retirement home for, 0.67

00:12:58.000 well, one of the two most recent appointees from Alberta. Nobody has, except you and I,

00:13:05.520 maybe 20 or 30, don't even know who they are. One's, you know, I'll be careful what I say,

00:13:12.080 a very generous donor to the Liberal Party of Canada, surprise, surprise. And the other is a big

00:13:17.840 crusader for LGBTQ rights. So, and he, I think he's only 50 something. So he'll be crusading against 1.00

00:13:26.480 parents' rights, parents' rights that are enshrined in, you know, the United Nations Declaration of

00:13:32.960 Rights, the right of parents to choose the education and be informed about the education of their

00:13:37.040 parents. That'll be our other senator for the next 25 years. So yeah, let's abolish it. 0.98

00:13:42.000 I see. Well, the case for abolition makes itself.

00:13:49.760 Okay. Before we leave the idea of the Senate, the fact is that it is in being. They do have

00:13:59.440 some power, maybe not as much as they think they have, but they do have influence.

00:14:04.720 And legally, legally, constitutionally, they do.

00:14:10.560 Yeah, they do. Now, one of the little known facts is that when you were running for the Senate,

00:14:17.280 you had a volunteer working with you, a University of Calgary student, who is today the leader of the

00:14:23.920 official opposition, Pierre Folliver-Polyave. He could very well be Canada's next prime minister. So,

00:14:33.040 for him... Let's hope he is.

00:14:35.520 Let's hope he is, yes, of course. But for him, the Senate is going to be an issue. I think

00:14:41.440 something like 85 senators out of, what is it, 108 have been, 103 have been appointed by the present

00:14:48.640 prime minister. Admittedly, they market themselves as independents, but they all get...

00:14:56.400 Don't buy that.

00:14:58.400 I don't buy it either. They all get the emails and they all

00:15:00.880 think the same way, but otherwise, they wouldn't have been appointed. So,

00:15:07.440 what advice would you give Mr. Polyave, if he were to ask for it,

00:15:15.040 on how to stick handle important legislation through the Senate?

00:15:20.400 Well, if the Liberal dominated, if Justin Trudeau's Liberal Senate tries to block

00:15:28.000 policies elected by a United Conservative, or excuse me, Conservative Party of Canada,

00:15:35.520 majority government, led by Pierre, if they try and block the democratic mandate of the Canadian election,

00:15:44.800 that's a constitutional crisis. And the fault, all the positive is on the side of an elected,

00:15:53.040 new elected majority government, and it cannot be blocked by a bunch of appointed, unelected,

00:15:58.560 unaccountable senators sitting over there in their couple hundred thousand dollar a year

00:16:03.840 Senate cures where they do whatever. They can talk all day, but they do virtually... All of a sudden,

00:16:10.080 they get all of a sudden... Again, it goes back to the double standard. And if they try... Did they ever

00:16:16.640 stop anything from Trudeau and the Liberals? Of course not. So, it's the double standard,

00:16:21.280 and it would be a crisis. But I think Pierre Plyave is up to handling that.

00:16:29.280 Well, I certainly believe he is, but he has shown a remarkable political acumen.

00:16:36.640 In the book, you talk about what you call the unlikely marriage of rural conservatives and

00:16:46.720 Calgary conservatives to form the 40-year PC dynasty.

00:16:54.400 You could make the argument, and I think you do, it's there, that the marriage is back together in

00:17:00.800 the United Conservative Party under Danielle Smith. But it seems less dependable now, especially after

00:17:09.360 COVID. Do you think that there... I mean, without... I think Danielle is doing a wonderful job. But if

00:17:18.720 the... There was some other person in there, they would face the same party structure.

00:17:25.520 Is there anyone else who can keep these factions of the party marching in lockstep?

00:17:36.080 Well, all parties, and particularly all majority governments, are coalitions of different interests,

00:17:43.040 different geographic interests, different economic interests, different social interests. So party unity is

00:17:49.120 always a challenge. Alberta has historically, I think, been unique in the last couple of decades,

00:17:55.680 where conservative governments were... Well, certainly it was a 40... I lost count, it was a 44-year dynasty,

00:18:02.800 where we, the conservatives, were able to win majorities, both in the cities and in rural. So

00:18:09.680 that was the coalition that I'm talking about. But there are obviously tensions in that coalition.

00:18:14.640 COVID brought them out. Let's knock on wood that we don't have any... We don't have another

00:18:20.400 COVID-type experience again. I think any premier, any conservative premier would have been hard-pressed

00:18:26.960 by the COVID, because given the nature of our coalition, as all parties are coalitions, the libertarians

00:18:33.680 thought that Jason Kenney did way too much, way too many restrictions. But of course, lots of people in the

00:18:42.800 middle of the moderates thought he didn't do enough, too much or not enough. It was... He got crucified

00:18:49.200 on that issue. And I'm not sure... I don't think I would have done much better. So I don't... Hopefully,

00:18:58.320 something like that won't happen again. But I think... I would hope that the members of the caucus and the

00:19:05.280 members of the UCP now realize that we can have big arguments inside the party. And let's have those

00:19:13.120 arguments, because these are important issues. And neither side, nobody has a monopoly on the right

00:19:18.480 answer. But what we don't need is two conservative parties again, and dividing the conservative vote.

00:19:25.520 That's a recipe for electing, as we've seen, NDP or Liberal governments. And so, let's have the

00:19:31.840 arguments. They can be strenuous arguments. But let's treat each other with respect and accept that

00:19:39.920 whoever wins the argument, whatever the issue is this year, it's open for the other side to win next

00:19:45.600 year or the year after. But let's not get back into dividing the conservative vote with two different

00:19:52.800 parties again. That was one of my big criteria, something that led me in not deciding to, you know,

00:20:01.680 go to the wild rose after I lost the BC leadership party. Because I thought two parties is a guaranteed

00:20:07.680 recipe for Liberals and Indies. And that's, of course, what happened.

00:20:11.520 So, yes, Ted, I mean, since you brought up your own run at the leadership, it invites me to comment

00:20:19.120 that the system we have of choosing leaders, where there are three, and because number one isn't far

00:20:27.360 enough ahead of number two, you end up with number three, seems to still be the party mechanism for

00:20:34.320 choosing a leader. Do you feel that that's, to me, that looks like how they lost in 2015. There are some

00:20:46.640 other issues. But the fact that we had the wrong leader in 2015, perhaps, was a big part of losing

00:20:57.920 government. Or am I just misinterpreting the landscape? What do you say?

00:21:02.320 Well, I think by 2015, the conservatives were destined, destined to defeat. It had been

00:21:12.960 the discrediting of the party over both certainly in terms of fiscal management, but also in terms of

00:21:22.000 social policy. The rural urban coalition had come completely apart at the wild rose. You know,

00:21:28.640 Prentice came in and tried to put things back together. But again, Prentice, like the predecessors,

00:21:35.920 like Redford, like Stelmack, the PC party never endorsed or accepted the Western alienation issue,

00:21:45.760 the fair, the firewall agenda, the fair deal, the demand for a better deal, a fair deal from Ottawa.

00:21:52.800 And, you know, by 2015, we've been fighting for that federally for over 20 years, back into the 90s,

00:22:01.760 25 years. And federally, Albertans were voting overwhelmingly for that. And you still had a PC

00:22:09.600 party led by someone and led by three people in a row. After I didn't win in 2006, Stelmack,

00:22:19.040 Redford and then Prentice, who didn't embrace the need for change and reform. So I understand why

00:22:26.240 people voted wild rose. In fact, I, if you go on the internet long enough, even on my Facebook page,

00:22:35.520 I think there's a picture of me supporting a couple wild rose candidates in Calgary who had helped me

00:22:41.280 in east northeast Calgary had helped me back in the one of the leadership races. So the PC party

00:22:49.040 basically destroyed itself by failing to embrace the issues that Preston Manning, the reform party,

00:22:56.240 and all of us that worked with Preston, the reform party argued for, and were winning big majorities

00:23:02.000 across the province for two decades, the PC party, and the people we kept, well, because of the screwed

00:23:08.480 up leadership selection process, we kept selecting leaders who were the least conservative of any of

00:23:16.240 the candidates. So would you go so far as to say that towards the end, the party wasn't really

00:23:21.760 conservative in any recognizable way? Well, I think Redford would have been a, as a liberal in any

00:23:29.680 other province. I mean, the fact of the matter was, after the Lougheed, the Lougheed years, if you wanted

00:23:37.600 to be in government, if you wanted to be in government and have, be part of a majority government,

00:23:42.640 you had to put on the Tory blue. And so one of the things I discovered very quickly when I went up,

00:23:51.520 when I was elected in 2004 and went up to the caucus, was that it was filled with lots of people

00:23:57.200 who were elected as conservatives, but who in fact were not particularly conservative at all.

00:24:02.480 But if you wanted to be on the dance floor in Alberta, you had to put on the Tory blue silks.

00:24:07.280 That was particularly true of, I would say, a lot of the people from a lot of the

00:24:14.240 PC MLAs from the Edmonton area. And of course, for reasons of self-interest, they became strong

00:24:20.480 lobbyists for policies, and this worked very well for Stelmeck, that were not very conservative,

00:24:27.120 because that's how they were going to get reelected up in Edmonton. So there was a problem.

00:24:31.120 Ted, we're going to be out of time here quite quickly, but I want to bring you back to where

00:24:37.440 we began about the sort of the march of the generations in pursuit of this conservative

00:24:43.760 cause. And the left has its own long march through the institutions. I mean, you've probably taught

00:24:49.760 that, the political science. And it's in the appendix. There are a couple of appendices to the book,

00:24:56.480 and the second appendix addresses that issue very specifically.

00:25:00.080 Okay. Well then, so we have, and you are a large part of our own conservative in Alberta,

00:25:08.160 march from somewhere to somewhere. What was the journey? Who were the players?

00:25:16.400 What satisfaction do you take from seeing Mr. Poliev in Ottawa, Danielle Smith, Premier of Alberta?

00:25:29.760 What does the next generation do? Just, you know, just talk about it. Free fire.

00:25:34.320 Well, I dedicate the book to Preston Manning. And I say very explicitly in the dedication,

00:25:42.400 right in the front of the book, that without Preston Manning, there would have been, you know,

00:25:48.320 no Stephen Harper, no Jason Kenney, no Danielle Smith, no Pierre probably ever. This has been,

00:25:59.040 he started the march, excuse me, he restarted the march that you can trace back. Lougheed did his bit,

00:26:08.000 another Manning before Lougheed, Alberta premiers. We've had a series of very wonderful premiers,

00:26:15.600 but everything they've gotten from Ottawa, they fought for. As I said before, that the beneficiaries

00:26:20.560 of the status quo don't give up their privileges voluntarily. You got to push, you got to take. And

00:26:27.920 the newest version of that was started by Preston and the Reform Party in the 80s and 90s.

00:26:32.560 And certainly my attempt to seek the leadership of the PC Party in 2006 was an attempt to bring that

00:26:43.920 movement into the PC Party inside of Alberta. I failed. But I think the work that I did, and again,

00:26:54.880 Preston, myself, you can't have leaders without followers. You can't have leaders without supporters.

00:27:00.560 And part of the reason I wrote this book was to send a message to everybody that helped me and

00:27:05.360 worked for me and supported me. We lost the leadership race and we didn't achieve what we

00:27:10.480 wanted to as early as we did, but we set the foundation and did a lot of the training for

00:27:17.360 the success enjoyed more recently by Kenny Smith and Paulie Everett. So I think the last sentence of the

00:27:28.080 last chapter says something like, hey, we want a fair deal. We want a strong and prosperous Canada,

00:27:36.800 but a fair deal for Alberta. And the next chapter is going to be written by the next generation of

00:27:41.920 leaders. So part of my reason for writing the book was, one, tell people that our generation, what we

00:27:48.960 did mattered and helped, but also send a message to all the people we just named that keep on marching.

00:27:57.520 Remember, that was the slogan of Alberta's first senator-elect to be appointed.

00:28:05.600 Ted, it's a great story, and it's a story that shouldn't be lost. You, I think,

00:28:12.240 we're explicit about that, and it's one of the reasons why you wrote the book, so that we have

00:28:17.360 a record that is both a testimony and also an encouragement going forward to other young

00:28:23.920 conservatives. So look, Ted, it's been great to have you on the program. Thank you so much for taking

00:28:29.520 the time. You have a book launch event on the 20th?

00:28:34.320 26th. Yeah, there's still room. I think if you go online, you can find an online way to register,

00:28:41.680 and I think they're taking... Ted Morton book or something? What would people type in?

00:28:49.600 Ted Morton book launch, strong and free, something like that.

00:28:53.360 Okay, that'll get there. Good. I think we have over 100 people already have RSVP'd,

00:28:59.760 and we'd like to get it up to 150, 200 people. Preston's going to be there. Preston's going to

00:29:05.360 speak. I'll speak. And I think there'll be a lot of familiar faces. It'll be a little bit of a

00:29:12.880 celebration. I think it will. It's going to be quite a week between your event, the Ted Byfield event,

00:29:18.480 which of course the Western Standard is pleased to support, and also let's not forget the Justice

00:29:25.120 Center having their George Jonas Awards on Friday. Conservatives getting together over food and drink.

00:29:32.320 What could be more? Thank you for inviting me, Nigel. Thank you for being on the program, Ted.

00:29:38.800 It's been a great pleasure. For the Western Standard, I'm Nigel Hannaford.

00:29:55.120 If the name Ted Byfield brings back fond memories, well, we got a party coming up for you guys.

00:30:01.600 On September 25th, Toasting Ted is what it's called. It's going to honor a great conservative

00:30:06.240 who published Alberta Report News Magazine. It's going to be bagpipes, singing, live auction stakes,

00:30:11.760 speeches by Premier Smith, Preston Manning, Stephen Harper, quite a lineup. The Western Standard is the

00:30:16.880 final incarnation or the latest incarnation of Alberta Report that Ted Byfield founded. And I mean,

00:30:22.480 he was a great Albertan. He really made his mark on this province and this evening of celebration

00:30:27.120 for him is really going to be outstanding. You get there, toastingted.ca. That's the website.

00:30:31.840 You can get your tickets. This one's going to sell out. I mean, again, if you want to see Smith,

00:30:35.360 Manning, Harper, all in one spot, one night, be sure to get there.

Western Standard - September 24, 2024

How an American from Wyoming became the best premier Alberta never had

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