HUDSON： When the right thing to do is to speak up
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
176.09663
Summary
In this episode of the podcast, I sit down with the author of How Do We Fulfill Together Across Difference: A Guide to Civility and Civility in the 21st Century, Nigel Barker, to discuss his new book, How do we flourish across difference? and how do we coexist peacefully and joyfully even when we disagree?
Transcript
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So you've written this book. What is the gist of the book? How is it going to help?
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So the book is about this question of how do we flourish together across difference? How do we do
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life? How do we coexist peacefully and joyfully, even when we disagree? And part of my story is
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that I worked in government. I was in Washington, D.C. And again, you and I, Nigel, we met when I
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was in Ottawa in the prime minister's office, so privileged to have served at both capitals.
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But when I was in Washington, I saw these two extremes. I saw on one hand the people with
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sharp elbows. They were hostile. They were aggressive. They were willing to do and say
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anything to get ahead. And I knew how to operate around those people. I just avoided them.
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On the other hand, I saw this other contingent of people. They were polished. They were poised. They
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were suave, well-dressed, had the right manners. And yet, these are the people that would
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flatter me one second and then stab me in the back the next when I no longer serve their
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purposes. And this, this, at first, I thought these were two poles, two polar opposites. And
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then I realized instead that they were two sides of the same coin. They were both, the both modes
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don't fail to see people as worthy of respect in and of themselves, and instead see people
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as means to their selfish ends and, and use people and cast them aside when they're no longer,
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no longer useful. This experience helped clarify for me, this essential distinction between civility
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and politeness. As I learned in government, people can be polite and yet be ruthless and cruel. They
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could have the right manners, the right things, but have malice in their hearts towards others.
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Again, an expression of, of the self-love that is in all of our natures as human beings. And what I
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began to realize is that civility, politeness is, is just etiquette, it's technique, it's manners,
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whereas civility is a disposition of the heart that sees the other as worthy of respect. And sometimes
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respecting someone requires telling a hard truth, telling someone that you think they're wrong,
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engaging in a robust debate. And too often today, there are two, there are two contingents. Some
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people claim they long for this era of gentility and more civil, civility and politeness, this golden
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era. And another contingent says, no, we are, uh, the stakes are too high, civility and politeness. They
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have, you know, kept people in positions of powerlessness, powerless, powerless. They're, they're a tool of the
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patriarchy. And both these contingents don't miss that, um, they conflate these two ideas of civility
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and politeness. And they, uh, failing to meaningfully distinguish them, distinguish these ideas as I
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think that they should. They don't, they're not giving us a tool. We need to distinguish these ideas so
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that we can better understand what we want more of in a society and what we want less of. What we need
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more of is honest conversation and robust debate, which is the lifeline of democracy.
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