Western Standard - Independence Debate with Derek Fildebrandt and Duane Bratt [FULL VIDEO]

00:00:00.000 Thank you for coming. I would like to start off by introducing our esteemed moderator Donna 0.98

00:00:14.220 Kennedy-Glann. She is a National Post columnist, former cabinet minister, and I got to know her as

00:00:19.520 a member of the Fair Deal panel, which was an interesting experience and it's an absolute

00:00:25.520 genesis into what we have here today. So please give a round of applause for Donna Kennedy-Glans.

00:00:38.960 Good evening, everyone. I'm glad you're here. I can't believe you came out.

00:00:43.540 It's 29 degrees outside in Calgary and it's Stampede. Way to be here. Way to be citizens.

00:00:49.880 I'm really, really grateful you're here. All of you.

00:00:55.520 As Josh said, I've worn a lot of hats, but the hat that probably helps the most for this

00:01:03.620 role as moderator for tonight's debate is my role as a mother of three sons.

00:01:10.420 I'm going to keep this civil, and I'm going to rely on you to help me do that.

00:01:16.400 This is a really important debate.

00:01:19.380 Now some of you will come in this room, you know where you're going to vote in November,

00:01:25.020 have decided one way or another and maybe nothing you're going to hear tonight is going to change

00:01:30.780 your mind but it may help you talk to people you care about and and break down some of those

00:01:38.700 barriers between the silos that's why i'm here tonight and there are other people in this room

00:01:44.460 who haven't decided let's respect that they want to hear the arguments and i am going to push these

00:01:53.020 two gentlemen they know what they're talking about they're credible but i'm going to push them

00:02:00.300 hard to be honest this is not a time for you know all hat no cowboy no cows this is real

00:02:08.860 this is real this is a really big deal coming up in october this is probably the biggest issue

00:02:14.700 we have faced as a province ever and i think it's really important and i'm really grateful as i said

00:02:21.340 that you're here that you care and that you want to listen to everybody's point of view

00:02:36.060 so i want to explain to you how the debate's going to roll out

00:02:40.300 i'm going to toss a question to one of the debaters he'll have three minutes to make his case

00:02:46.300 his opponent will have three minutes to counter and then the first debater will have an opportunity 0.99

00:02:53.980 to sum up for one minute and leah here got volunteered to be our flag bearer so she's

00:03:00.700 got a yellow flag and a red flag as we time out here i also want to talk a little bit about

00:03:09.980 emotions i've been at debates like this where things are controversial people have different

00:03:16.540 views and and frankly you all seem really pleasant um and i'm grateful for that but that's not always

00:03:25.980 the case in some rooms and just because we want this to be an opportunity for people to be able

00:03:32.620 to listen and hear and think maybe talk to their neighbors a little bit i am going to be ferocious

00:03:41.020 i'm going to do the mama bear thing if somebody tries to turn this into a spectacle

00:03:47.820 i'm going to boot them out of the room okay is that fair

00:03:51.900 okay let's get going i want to introduce our two debaters brave men who've stepped up

00:04:07.180 derek phildebrandt who is going to be on my right but your left which is very interesting to me

00:04:12.460 Derek has been self-described as the mosquito in the tent that they just can't quite kill.

00:04:25.600 I think that's probably the most apt description of Derek Fildebrandt that I know of.

00:04:33.080 He's former wild rose in UCP. He's done many, many things, and I'm going to let each of the

00:04:38.880 debaters introduce themselves and explain why they are here tonight. But Derek, I'll let you

00:04:44.720 take the podium here. And our other debater is Duane Bratt, a Mount Royal University political

00:04:54.240 scientist, who many of you will have seen on TV, on CTV, on CBC, on Western Standard. He's

00:05:02.400 ubiquitous. He's always got something important to say because he's been watching Alberta politics

00:05:08.240 for a very long time. He also has been teaching lacrosse players and students

00:05:13.940 at Mount Royal University how to play clean and tough, and tonight he's going

00:05:19.220 to be making the case for staying in the Canada game. Dwayne.

00:05:24.520 Good show of civility, boys.

00:05:34.360 Good start.

00:05:38.400 I'm going to open up the shoot here.

00:05:41.720 I kind of got a little stampede jargon for Derek.

00:05:46.600 Give him three minutes to explain himself, besides the mosquito thing,

00:05:51.240 and explain why he was so highly motivated

00:05:54.960 that he came and found Dwayne and I

00:05:57.080 and wanted to host this discussion.

00:06:00.540 Over to you.

00:06:01.720 Donna, and thank you, Dwayne, for agreeing to debate me tonight,

00:06:04.920 especially in a room that I think is disproportionately

00:06:06.960 a bit Western standard, the brave of you.

00:06:08.860 I appreciate it.

00:06:12.180 Alberta has given Ottawa a net $322 billion more in revenue

00:06:19.200 than has received back since 2007.

00:06:22.220 Alberta has six times Nova Scotia's population,

00:06:25.420 but only three and a half times as many MPs

00:06:28.340 and half as many senators.

00:06:30.780 Alberta votes overwhelmingly Conservative,

00:06:32.860 but four out of five of our senators are Liberals.

00:06:35.920 Most of them are on the radical left,

00:06:37.380 and one even pushes transitioning little children. 0.94

00:06:41.340 Well, meaning Federalist Conservative politicians 1.00

00:06:43.340 tell us that we just need to vote for them

00:06:45.460 to make everything okay.

00:06:47.560 But we have done that for the last 28 elections in a row since 1935.

00:06:54.760 We have said the West wants in, but on the occasion that we do get in,

00:06:59.080 the changes that we get are relatively small and quickly reversed by the next Liberal government.

00:07:05.480 Conservatives may promise a pipeline, but they will never promise to reform the Constitution

00:07:10.440 to give the West fair representation or to end equalization.

00:07:14.520 They cannot because they need to win votes in the east to form government.

00:07:20.280 I fight for independence not because I dislike Canada. On the contrary, I love Canada. I grew

00:07:28.680 up in small army and air force towns across Canada and had dreams of being a captain in

00:07:32.760 the Royal Canadian Navy. But our Canada is gone. It has been replaced by a post-national economic

00:07:41.000 redistribution zone. That Canada is terminally ill and it shows no signs that it is willing to save

00:07:48.200 itself. That Canada is crippled with shame and guilt and only rouses itself to fly the maple leaf

00:07:57.080 when the bad orange man says mean things. That Canada tore down its monuments to Sir John A.

00:08:03.320 Macdonald and Queen Victoria. That Canada spits on the heroes that conquered and settled a harsh

00:08:10.920 and hostile wilderness and made it into one of the greatest and freest nations on earth.

00:08:16.360 That Canada lured its flag in self-flagellating shame for months to atone for a genocide

00:08:22.760 that it well knew was a hoax. That Canada rejected its liberty for censorship and the false illusion

00:08:30.200 of safety. That Canada opened the floodgates to third world mass migration that is destroying 1.00

00:08:36.520 the inheritance passed on to us by our ancestors. That Canada tells you that you're racist if you

00:08:43.080 oppose it. That Canada puts tampons in the men's room of a military base that used to be the home

00:08:49.640 of one of the most feared armies in the world. That Canada used emergency war powers to violently

00:08:55.480 and unconstitutionally crush a peaceful protest of flag-waving Canadians that were sick of having 0.52

00:09:01.000 their freedoms crushed on the altar of COVID hysteria. That Canada was ashamed of the Canadian

00:09:06.520 flag until we raised Alberta's blue shield in defiance. Alberta and perhaps Saskatchewan is

00:09:13.800 the last bastion of real Canadian patriots. Patriots proud of our past and unwilling to

00:09:20.040 surrender our future. We are trying to save a part of Canada by declaring that our portion of it is

00:09:27.240 proud of its inheritance and is willing to fight to hand it to our posterity stronger than we found it

00:09:45.640 okay duane over to you so why are we here tonight there's always been a separatist sentiment in

00:09:54.040 Alberta since it became a province in 1905. In fact I would argue it has spiked much larger

00:10:01.320 in past years. 1981 at the height of Pierre Trudeau's national energy program or in 2019

00:10:08.440 with the re-election of Justin Trudeau after the Alberta Liberals lost every seat that they had in

00:10:14.040 the province and had the lowest voter turnout they ever did in its history. So why are we having a

00:10:20.440 referendum in 2026 i'd make the case that there's two reasons one is the election of mark carney

00:10:27.400 in april of 2025 separatism has a large partisan element and in fact if you listen to derek's

00:10:34.920 opening statement there was a large partisan element to that and so therefore when liberals

00:10:40.600 are in office in ottawa there is more separatist sentiment in alberta but the second is daniel

00:10:48.040 Smith. We've always had premiers fighting Ottawa, whether that was William Eberhardt, Ernest Manning,

00:10:54.720 Peter Lougheed, Don Getty, Ralph Klein, Rachel Notley, Jason Kenney, but they were all fierce

00:11:02.680 Canadians. None of them were sympathetic to separatism, unlike Daniel Smith. The UCP is not

00:11:11.740 a separatist party but there are separatists within the ucp at the national executive at the

00:11:18.220 constituency association level at the caucus level and amongst many of its supporters so the reason

00:11:25.100 we're having this referendum is about internal party unity and a potential threat to smith's

00:11:31.820 leadership and willing to risk national unity in the process now i am not going to change many

00:11:39.420 minds tonight. But what I hope to do is make the case for why Alberta needs to remain in Canada

00:11:45.640 and identify the myths and risks of Alberta Separatism. I am a very proud Canadian. I'm also

00:11:54.280 a very proud Albertan. In fact, I often joke that the next reporter from Toronto that doesn't

00:11:59.900 understand time zones may push me to the separatist corner. But like a majority of Albertans,

00:12:07.620 I do not want to have to choose my identity.

00:12:10.940 I do not want to have to choose between being a Canadian and being an Albertan because I am both.

00:12:19.400 Thank you.

00:12:25.740 No shrinking violets here tonight.

00:12:28.480 Good.

00:12:29.600 Okay, we're going to start with one question to Duane, and he will have to defend it.

00:12:35.320 And then it will flip over to Derek to rebut, and then we'll close again with Dwayne.

00:12:43.860 So first question, Dwayne.

00:12:46.380 Support for separation and for triggering a binding independence referendum in October may have cooled somewhat in the polls,

00:12:54.260 although this crowd may not agree with that.

00:12:55.940 Yet this entire conversation and all the stay versus leave campaigning has put Alberta independence firmly on the national map.

00:13:06.740 Other provinces are now watching.

00:13:09.380 My question to you, regardless of the outcome of the October 19th referendum in Alberta,

00:13:15.720 if we don't meaningfully change how confederation works, the threat to Canadian unity will only grow bigger.

00:13:25.940 Do you agree or disagree?

00:13:28.740 So I often hear this, that this is between separatism and status quo.

00:13:33.380 That somehow Alberta is the same place in Canada in 2026 as we were in 1905.

00:13:42.340 There has been substantial change in the country since that time period.

00:13:48.060 So yes, we can talk about the grievance of not having natural resource rights in 1905.

00:13:53.880 That was changed in 1930.

00:13:55.940 we can talk about the role that Peter Lougheed played working with Pierre Trudeau,

00:14:02.900 impatriating the Constitution for 1982, including reinforcing the role of natural resources in the

00:14:11.380 Constitution and supporting a notwithstanding clause currently being used by the provincial

00:14:18.180 government. Those are just constitutional changes. You hear about the Senate, okay,

00:14:23.860 And there has been lots of reforms around the Senate.

00:14:28.180 Just on the appointment process, Mark Carney reversed the partisan ban that Justin Trudeau put in around the appointment of Senate.

00:14:38.040 We have had Senate elections, sometimes honoured, sometimes not in this province.

00:14:43.260 We actually are going to have a referendum on abolishing the Senate.

00:14:47.080 That is not status quo. That shows changes from 1905.

00:14:51.540 You look at the economic standing, the political standing of Alberta.

00:14:58.660 It is not from where we were in 1905.

00:15:01.240 Alberta would have gone bankrupt in the Great Depression were it not for federal assistance.

00:15:07.900 Likewise, the oil sands greatly benefited in the mid-1970s from money from both Ottawa and the Ontario government.

00:15:18.720 from a tax regime change that was made in the mid-1990s under the Khrushchev liberal government

00:15:25.040 working with Ralph Klein that furthered the development of the oil sands, or economic oil

00:15:33.980 policies, right? Just look at some of the changes that have been done by Mark Carney in the last

00:15:40.920 year. Look at the one, two, three MOUs that Carney has signed with the current government.

00:15:47.720 Now, you may laugh at that, and you're probably thinking there's no way in hell that pipeline will ever be built.

00:15:54.740 That was the same comment that people made about Trans Mountain.

00:15:59.000 Now, Trans Mountain went over budget, but Trans Mountain is now making money, serious money, for both Ottawa and the Alberta government.

00:16:09.280 So, this idea that the choice is separatism or status quo is a false choice because nothing is status quo.

00:16:19.440 Thank you. Over to you, Derek.

00:16:24.260 Thank you, Duane.

00:16:27.160 All of the constitutional changes that you mentioned, Duane, were pre-1982.

00:16:34.320 It's funny how we call it repatriation of the Constitution.

00:16:37.440 It was patriation, but it's an odd term, I guess, used in our political history.

00:16:41.380 But 1982, and we had the Constitution Act, and we got the Charter and whatnot,

00:16:45.620 when Peter Lougheed fought to further entrench and clarify provincial ownership over natural resource rights in the Constitution for the provinces.

00:16:56.840 Since then, however, without any changes to the Constitution through the proper amending formula, courts have begun to erode those rights.

00:17:05.620 That's why the primarily liberal appointed Supreme Court of Canada allowed federal intrusion into how we develop our natural resources in Alberta.

00:17:17.080 That's why the federal government is constitutionally allowed, as the Supreme Court decides at least, to impose a carbon tax.

00:17:24.100 That is a court decision because the Liberals tend to appoint the majority of our Supreme Court justices because they're in power more than the Conservatives.

00:17:31.540 those rights are being eroded regularly and they're going to continue to be eroded

00:17:36.800 senators well we've talked about there's been changes to the senate the biggest change in the

00:17:43.400 history of canada constitutionally to senate appointments was imposing a retirement age was

00:17:48.540 it 65 or 75 yeah so because some people were were serving until they were 100 and as senile as joe

00:17:56.500 Biden. So we used to have a Senate full of Joe Biden's. So I admit a little bit of improvement

00:18:02.880 there. They retire at 65. That is the only substantial constitutional change. Alberta has

00:18:08.880 six Senate seats. Nova Scotia has, I believe, 10. New Brunswick has 10. Each of those provinces

00:18:18.060 are six and five times less population than Alberta individually, because Alberta was the

00:18:26.320 Alberta and Saskatchewan were the only two provinces that did not negotiate their way into

00:18:30.640 Canada as independent crown or semi-independent crown colonies first. They were created by the

00:18:35.280 federal government over the objections of the colonial legislature of the Northwest Territories

00:18:39.240 at the time. We wanted to have Buffalo and instead we got divided in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

00:18:45.920 We are, Professor Bratt talked about the referendum we're having on abolishing the Senate

00:18:50.920 coming out. Now every functional federation in the democratic world has a functioning upper

00:18:56.080 House of some kind. The U.K. Senate, the U.S. Senate, the German Bundestag, etc. But remember,

00:19:03.700 we had a referendum on equalization in the Constitution in 2021. Anyone remember what

00:19:08.800 happened there? Nothing. That is why I reluctantly support the independent side, because whenever we

00:19:16.140 try to change something in good faith and good natured, you know what happens? Nothing. There

00:19:22.280 is unfortunately only two choices it is the status quo or it is independence all right

00:19:37.000 duane you get a closer on this one one minute yeah so i'm going to focus on two of the points

00:19:42.120 one is around the senate we hear a lot about how the senate is unrepresentative and that is true

00:19:48.360 it's not even representation by population but in some cases new brunswick nova scotia it's the

00:19:54.360 opposite of that but is breaking up the country worth it for a um a house of parliament with very

00:20:03.800 little power power that it defers because it is unelected to the house of comments uh and on the

00:20:11.000 supreme court okay this idea that because the supreme court has been appointed largely by

00:20:17.000 liberals it always operates on behalf of the federal government not when it comes

00:20:22.440 down to internal trade barriers where they often come down in favor of the

00:20:26.420 provinces as in the case of the Maurice case the poor man from New Brunswick who

00:20:32.000 brought who was charged with smuggling for bringing beer from Quebec and the

00:20:37.820 Supreme Court upheld that which is provincial rights likewise the effort

00:20:43.100 at creating a national securities regulator was blocked by the supreme court okay on behalf of

00:20:50.220 the provinces so there has been lots of change this is not status quo do you do you want to

00:20:58.300 quickly respond eric i just i am i'm going to grant this latitude here okay because they're

00:21:03.820 still civil but if that ends this latitude ends too okay yeah just uh very briefly uh the senate

00:21:11.180 doesn't normally exercise its power because traditionally the Senate more often than not

00:21:16.300 has had C counts a majority in the Senate that aligned with the governing party that is clearly

00:21:21.020 not the case we had a lot a ton of liberal uh Trudeau appointed senators before the last election

00:21:25.740 when it looked like the conservatives were going to win a stonking majority stating that they were

00:21:29.820 prepared to block the agenda uh in the late 1990s the reason Canada has no abortion law whatsoever

00:21:35.740 is the Senate asserted its power and blocked a bill duly passed by the House of Commons it's a

00:21:40.460 rarer example and just on the last point about internal trade i don't want a supreme court that

00:21:46.860 sides more with the feds or more with the provinces i want a supreme court that sides

00:21:50.860 with the constitution and internal free trade is where you should don't sign with the provinces

00:21:55.900 that was a bad decision that it's illegal to trade beer across provinces that's good

00:22:00.700 do you want to counter no okay question two derek you're gonna like this one

00:22:10.460 you are. The heart of Alberta's frustration is unfairness. I saw that firsthand on the Fair Deal 1.00

00:22:17.240 panel. We saw it during the trucker convoy. The grievances have been building for decades and now

00:22:23.080 they're fueling a pro-independence campaign. But let's be honest here. How is an independence

00:22:32.060 referendum fair to the many Albertans who want to remain Canadian and say they would leave the

00:22:37.300 province if we go solo? How is it fair to the First Nations who object? A yes vote

00:22:44.200 means carving out federal parks, military assets, Indigenous reserves, unworkable

00:22:50.200 partitions. And how is Alberta going it alone fair to the rest of Canada? So my

00:22:56.920 question to you Derek, voting to move forward with an independence referendum

00:23:02.080 is inevitably polarizing for Albertans and will cause more harm than pursuing greater sovereignty

00:23:09.380 within Canada, as Quebec has done. Do you agree or disagree? Well, it wouldn't surprise you that I

00:23:17.060 disagree with the entirety of the question and statement, the premise of it. But I think there

00:23:24.160 are fair points in it that I think deserve fair attention. First, would it be divisive? Absolutely.

00:23:31.700 Every time we engage in democratic exercises, it is divisive.

00:23:36.400 We like one party over another, we like one candidate over another.

00:23:39.140 We're having a referendum on any issue.

00:23:41.340 There's going to be a winning side and there's going to be a losing side,

00:23:44.300 particularly in such an existential question as this.

00:23:48.320 This will be more divisive than, say, an equalization referendum.

00:23:51.480 That is a very fair point.

00:23:53.380 And people's feelings are going to get hurt.

00:23:55.740 If the polls are believed, my feelings will get hurt.

00:23:58.480 But we're trying to change hearts and minds on that.

00:24:01.180 the winning side is always going to have to be gracious in in victory and the losing side is

00:24:06.380 going to have to be um forgiving in defeat uh first nations uh i believe it is much less uniform

00:24:16.540 than legacy media would have us believe it is not uniform i know many people indigenous people who

00:24:23.580 are on the independent side but i'm under no illusions that as a whole they have our back

00:24:29.900 They are a minority that, if polling is to be believed, are disproportionately on the federalist

00:24:35.260 side. I find that odd, not that I can presume to speak for them, but the Indian Act has treated

00:24:41.740 our Indigenous people terribly. Why wouldn't this be an excellent opportunity to rectify that,

00:24:48.060 to bring them into the community of Alberta, treat them as equals? But they have signed

00:24:54.620 treaties and treaties good treaties bad treaties must be respected but just as the Dominion of

00:25:01.100 Canada inherited the treaties from the crown colonies of the United Province of Upper and

00:25:05.660 Lower Canada Nova Scotia New Brunswick and eventually other crown colonies that pre-existed

00:25:10.460 Canada and came into the Dominion an independent Alberta as a republic or as a constitutional

00:25:15.660 monarchy would be obliged by law and honour to respect every one of those treaties and it would

00:25:22.940 be up to our Indigenous people to decide if they want to renegotiate them or not.

00:25:28.540 To the rest of Canada, I say if you're worried about this being unfair,

00:25:35.740 I hear you, but there's a simple way to address it. I'm not implacably an independent supporter.

00:25:43.340 I can be one back. Treat Alberta as an equal member of the family. Open up the constitution.

00:25:52.120 Treat us like everyone else in the family and give us a seat at the table. 0.88

00:25:56.620 Let the West in.

00:25:59.240 It's because I don't believe that the West is ever going to truly be in

00:26:03.180 that I am supporting the position I am in.

00:26:05.580 So if the rest of Canada feels slighted by it, I understand that.

00:26:09.140 But there's a clear answer if you don't want to feel that way.

00:26:13.500 Let's come to the table. Let's talk.

00:26:14.780 over to you duane so let's break down this idea of fairness um and i heard the comparison made

00:26:27.560 between a referendum and a regular general election they are not the same in a general

00:26:32.480 election you fight it's temporary you have another election four years later you move on

00:26:38.460 that's not with a separation referendum. If that goes where the Canada side wins that does not

00:26:47.580 prevent a subsequent referendum as we saw in Quebec. But if the separatists win then the

00:26:54.560 story's over. It's irreversible. That is not fair. If you first you don't secede try and try again

00:27:03.560 is not a model of fairness. On the treatment of Alberta, there was a book that came out by Donald

00:27:09.520 Savoie, a very prominent political scientist out of the University of Moncton, where he walked

00:27:15.140 through how every region of Canada feels that they're a victim. Obviously, Quebec feels that

00:27:22.540 they're a victim. Indigenous people feel that they're a victim. Atlantic Canada, we hear about,

00:27:27.640 oh, look how many extra seats PEI has in the House of Commons. Yeah, that's why PEI runs the

00:27:33.100 country right they feel victims obviously western canada feels victims bc there's something about

00:27:38.520 the rocky mountains they feel entirely ignored by the rest of the country and then the rebuttal

00:27:42.860 would be well what about ontario they obviously can't feel that they're the victims they actually

00:27:47.200 do towards the united states because of the legacy of the loyalists and the american revolution

00:27:52.000 so every part of canada part of the great canadian trait is we're all victims um miss candy glance

00:28:01.220 mentioned at the beginning that she's a mom of three kids i'm sure each one of her boys believes

00:28:05.540 that mom liked the other ones better right that's part of the process um and then there was reference

00:28:14.420 to getting rid of the indian act jean chretchen when he was indian affairs minister in the late

00:28:19.300 1960s tried to do that and he was strongly imposed by the indigenous people because that was viewed

00:28:26.740 as assimilation and that would violate the treaty rights that had been ignored up to that point

00:28:32.900 treaty rights that they signed in good faith in the 17th and 18th and 19th century right and so

00:28:40.660 i think that's an issue that has been largely ignored in this debate except by the courts

00:28:47.140 so that's just a bit of my rebuttal thank you you've got one minute derek to respond

00:28:52.580 your analogy that you know everyone have done his children sons probably thinks that mom loves them

00:29:01.260 the most is perhaps apt I I can see how the Canadian family feels that way sometimes but

00:29:06.260 in this case one kid has had to drop out of school and work to support all the others that

00:29:11.660 That kid deserves a little more love.

00:29:21.900 Duane is right in principle about a referendum

00:29:25.900 being more definitive and being more irreversible

00:29:30.340 than a regular election, except for this referendum.

00:29:34.160 This is a referendum to hold a referendum.

00:29:36.640 This is a referendum to decide not to declare independence,

00:29:41.040 to declare if Alberta wishes to go down the road of independence that starts a process of negotiations

00:29:46.720 this allows everyone to see the facts what is our share of the debt going to be that we have to take

00:29:51.520 how are we going to deal with assets and liabilities like national parks military hardware

00:29:55.440 they can keep most of that we'll get our own but this is a referendum to have a referendum

00:29:59.280 and start the process thank you

00:30:02.080 all this talk of my three sons reminds me that this is being live streamed and so all my sons

00:30:15.320 are watching I love you all but but it is being live streamed so if you have friends at home that

00:30:24.080 you think should be listening in please let them know it's Western Standard is live streaming and

00:30:29.080 and CTV is here as well.

00:30:31.000 So there are ways to track this.

00:30:34.180 My third question is to Duane, and it's about numbers.

00:30:39.020 I'm married to a number cruncher

00:30:40.700 who happens to be in the room.

00:30:42.880 Economists and accountants have been busy crunching

00:30:45.600 the numbers on staying in Confederation

00:30:47.760 versus going independent.

00:30:49.440 We've talked about equalization, federal rules

00:30:52.460 on transition costs, and the price of running a new country.

00:30:57.400 Pro-independence voices talk about windfalls

00:31:00.780 and some even say the numbers don't matter.

00:31:03.560 Independence is worth any cost.

00:31:06.440 On the other side of the equation,

00:31:08.060 big city mayors and chambers of commerce

00:31:10.400 are warning us that uncertainty drives away investment

00:31:14.400 and shrinks Alberta's economy.

00:31:17.260 My question to you, Duane,

00:31:19.380 the argument has been put forward by separatists

00:31:22.700 that continuing as a province within Canada

00:31:26.200 costs alberta too much do you agree or disagree i disagree i mean albertans are the richest people

00:31:35.320 in the country and if that is a way that we have been victimized by the rest of the country

00:31:42.040 i would like to be victimized a bit more on the issue of cost we simply don't know you're going

00:31:50.200 to see contrasting documents we saw a document that came from state free alberta that outlined

00:31:57.720 it would be a minimal adjustment cost but reading through that there were huge misrepresentations

00:32:03.560 some double counting the math just didn't add up likewise the premier has said it would cost

00:32:11.400 400 billion dollars in adjustment costs but no numbers backing that up now the school of public

00:32:18.920 policy has been asked to do a more full scale analysis but it can only be temporary because

00:32:26.920 ultimately we don't know what we do know is comparisons we know the impact that brexit has

00:32:33.560 had on britain economically and the drop in gdp that occurred there um and that was breaking up

00:32:41.720 a trade agreement not a country and we saw what happened in quebec with the movement of people

00:32:51.000 and dollars and companies there's a reason that the bank of montreal is now based in toronto

00:32:56.920 toronto was the great winner of this referendum debate long series of debates in quebec so

00:33:03.880 there is going to be a cost um and even quebec when they produce their documents jacques perizol

00:33:11.720 was an economist he acknowledged the uh the economic hit that quebec would take but there

00:33:19.000 it was about identity it was about language it was about culture it was about history it was

00:33:24.440 about tradition when i hear the arguments about alberta separation including by mr phil the brand

00:33:30.680 the focus is on money are albertans willing to pay an economic cost for separation i don't think so

00:33:40.040 so we do know that there'll be a cost and it could be ongoing cost not just a temporary cost

00:33:46.120 but we don't know what those numbers are thank you derek your response to that

00:33:53.640 uh duane you talked about uh the uncertainty that came with the quebec uh quebec's two

00:34:02.840 referenda on on independence or sovereignty association whatever they were calling it at

00:34:07.000 the time uh and the flight of capital that took place the evidence i mean this is pointed up by

00:34:14.040 the state federalists very often but the evidence shows that capital and people fled quebec not

00:34:20.840 because it was seeking to be an independent polity but because they feared what that independent

00:34:26.600 polity would be it would be a anti-english speaking ethno state run by socialists who

00:34:36.360 would be explicitly anti-business that has been the mo of most quebec governments since the quiet

00:34:43.800 revolution. No one wants to be in a place run like that, independent or subnational.

00:34:50.600 I have a hard time imagining some oilman in Texas looking about where to put his map 1.00

00:34:56.360 and he sees this thing, this funny little shape, some kind of redneck Switzerland with the lowest 0.99

00:35:01.560 taxes north of the 49th parallel with the freest enterprise, open approvals to drill new wells and 0.69

00:35:09.160 dig new oil sands mines. That is not going to drive away capital unless we're going to ban

00:35:14.840 every other language from existing here and start taxing people to death the way it was proposed to 0.98

00:35:20.520 take place in Quebec. In 2024, the last year for which we have the full final numbers, Alberta paid

00:35:30.040 $77 billion into Ottawa. We got 53 back in net transfers and spending in Alberta. That was a

00:35:38.280 $25 billion loss in one year that works out to $12,727 per household. Who would like to buy a

00:35:49.720 boat this year? Who would like to buy a boat every year? It's Alberta. Alberta has the fourth

00:35:57.080 largest energy reserve on the planet and it is trapped when I talk to American people, Americans

00:36:03.400 in the energy industry they are flabbergasted that we do this to ourselves our per capita gdp

00:36:10.840 as an independent country assuming we did not improve our per capita gdp which i i absolutely

00:36:16.680 believe we would but even if we just stayed where we are we would be ranked eighth richest country

00:36:22.360 in the world we'd be in a club with lichtenstein and switzerland two landlocked countries

00:36:26.920 i would have you and canada would drop from 16th to 18th um but this is not just about the money

00:36:34.680 as duane said and sometimes our side has made this too much about the money it's not actually

00:36:38.840 about that anymore it's about having a place that is still recognizably ours when our children

00:36:45.640 inherit this place and we pass from it and we can see what's happening right now in canada

00:36:50.840 and we know that canada's already gone we have to save alberta before it's too late

00:36:56.920 Okay, back to Duane here for a minute.

00:37:05.920 So Mr. Fildebrand said that the reason that there were people and money leaving Quebec

00:37:11.640 was not due to referendums, but the fear that an independent Quebec would discriminate against

00:37:18.760 minorities, in this case the English minority.

00:37:23.260 Rewind the live stream back to Mr. Felderbrand's opening statement, where he seemed to strongly attack immigration.

00:37:31.440 I'm looking around this room. I don't see a whole lot of non-white Albertans in here, right?

00:37:39.060 So when we talk about, no, seriously, here, when you hear about mass immigration as a reason to leave Canada

00:37:50.100 and you are first generation, second generation, third generation immigrant to Alberta,

00:37:55.980 what do you think you're hearing?

00:37:58.200 Likewise, the comment that Alberta is a conservative place.

00:38:02.540 What if you don't vote conservative, which in the last election was well over 40%?

00:38:08.580 Are we being told that we're not welcome here?

00:38:12.060 That's the same thing as the English community felt in Quebec

00:38:16.100 and quite frankly, the Alophone community in Quebec felt.

00:38:20.100 So, I'm going to make an observation here that, you know, there is a lot of talk about

00:38:30.640 numbers out there.

00:38:32.960 It's on every radio station, it's in every report, but this discussion, as I mentioned

00:38:38.340 at the very beginning, is very emotional.

00:38:42.020 And we don't really have great skills in talking about emotional issues.

00:38:45.860 I'm that's a gross generalization many of you probably do but part of the

00:38:50.660 questions I'm asking tonight are geared to that kind of a conversation because

00:38:56.600 we can argue about numbers forever but that's not going to solve the problem

00:39:03.920 us us figuring out a pathway forward so I did this intentionally not to be mean

00:39:10.180 but I really think that this is the part of the conversation that we need to get

00:39:15.300 better at okay so my fourth question they get my rebuttal right I got one

00:39:21.640 minute no that was Dwayne's question oh do you have something else you want to

00:39:27.000 say of course actually I'm gonna give you another question because you're

00:39:33.340 gonna like this one too this one's to Derek governing a brand new sovereign

00:39:41.280 country isn't a simple endeavor. What'll it be? Constitutional monarchy, a republic or something

00:39:48.660 invented on the fly? How would immigration rules be decided? You've already talked about that.

00:39:55.200 Rebuilding trust with Canada, the world and even our own citizens will be a steep climb 0.91

00:40:00.580 and add in Indigenous rights and the Trump factor. Trump's potential willingness to recognize 0.67

00:40:07.840 alberta's unilateral declaration of independence and all that chatter about joining the united

00:40:13.760 states my question to you governance of a truly independent alberta would be extremely challenging

00:40:22.880 and very risky without canada agree or disagree i would agree with the first premise uh the first

00:40:32.960 half of the premise of your question the second half no the first half I agree with that it would

00:40:41.920 be difficult it would not be easy there's ways to address it but I do not believe we could not do

00:40:48.880 it without the rest of Canada we have learned from Canada's great history how to govern ourselves

00:40:55.840 as a province we've had prime ministers even we know how to do this just as the Dominion of Canada

00:41:02.560 knew how to govern itself because it had training wheels on as the crown colonies of the united

00:41:07.680 province of upper and lower canada nova scotia new brunswick later on prince of rhode island

00:41:12.160 british columbia and everyone else from there canada learned from the great british empire

00:41:18.640 and our westminster traditions how to do these things we know these things we're ready to take

00:41:25.440 the training wheels off we're ready to run we know how to do this how what what this looks like these

00:41:31.280 are tough questions and they're fair for the other side to ask. Are we a republic? Are we a

00:41:36.420 constitutional monarchy? If Alberta pursues independence, we would have to have a constitutional

00:41:42.580 convention of some kind. I think it should be separate from the legislature itself. The legislature

00:41:46.860 will be too self-interested. You don't let the politicians write their own rules as much as you 0.70

00:41:51.900 can. And so we should elect a separate constitutional convention the way the Americans did after the

00:41:56.620 American Revolution, replacing the Articles of Confederation. And we would have to address these

00:42:01.760 very real, very tough questions. I'm partial, actually, to a constitutional monarchy. In fact,

00:42:07.940 we could even keep the same monarchy. When Canada became the Dominion of Canada. Okay,

00:42:14.180 I don't like Charles either, but we'll get past them. When the Dominion of Canada was created,

00:42:19.780 uh we didn't become somehow separate actually from britain we grew we evolved we could still

00:42:27.960 actually if we wished retain the same head of state in our constitutional monarchy i know there's a

00:42:32.780 lot of republic of alberta shirts here so i'm not picking a fight with you don't worry um but

00:42:38.240 republic is also an option um but canada grew from these separate colonies into the dominion of

00:42:44.760 canada and we had the statute of westminster i believe in the 1930s and then the final

00:42:49.180 patriation of the constitution with the constitution act 1982 that was a slow evolution of things

00:42:55.740 there was no worry that canadians weren't really ready to do it we've been alberta since 1905

00:43:02.460 over a hundred years we're ready to run i'm gonna turn this over to duane but i i do have to point

00:43:13.420 out and i want you to think about this derek is you didn't respond to the trump factor and i think

00:43:17.660 you need to okay okay so duane yeah so the this is a very important question what would an independent

00:43:26.940 alberta look like and we didn't get much of an answer because they simply don't know so you want

00:43:34.140 to vote to separate and you can't even figure out if you're going to be a constitutional monarch or

00:43:42.220 a republic and mr felderbrand mentioned look at the evolution of canada we started with

00:43:47.420 responsible government in the 1840s and then confederation in 1867 and the statute of west

00:43:53.660 minster and the patriation of the constitution in 1982 so i guess the answer is let's separate

00:44:00.700 and we'll figure it out within the next hundred years i don't think that's a very good answer

00:44:06.220 this is an important question what would the constitution look like would it be the same as

00:44:10.540 as what the Canadian constitution,

00:44:12.020 maybe throw in a clause protecting guns.

00:44:16.160 Yeah, that's a little bit like,

00:44:17.700 you know, would we have section one, right,

00:44:20.680 about a, that limits can be restricted

00:44:25.260 in a demonstrable country?

00:44:29.080 We'll have to see.

00:44:30.020 So these are important questions.

00:44:31.860 I didn't hear an answer.

00:44:32.860 Are we gonna have an upper chamber?

00:44:35.000 What will the electoral system be like?

00:44:37.900 Will this just be conservative rule?

00:44:40.540 I don't know.

00:44:42.020 Mr. Philibrand doesn't know.

00:44:43.680 Everyone in this room doesn't know.

00:44:45.560 You may have ideas, but we don't know.

00:44:50.440 Okay, back to Derek.

00:44:54.620 So just quickly to break Dwayne's part, then I'll come to you.

00:44:58.020 The United States, we're at 250 years of American independence.

00:45:01.080 But when they declared independence, they didn't know.

00:45:04.300 They thought of making George Washington king.

00:45:09.300 They could have had a parliament.

00:45:11.300 They could have had a king. 0.66

00:45:12.300 They could have had a king and a parliament,

00:45:14.300 or they had the divided system as they did.

00:45:16.300 But they'd achieved independence first.

00:45:19.300 Hopefully, I think a bit tougher than it would be for us, 0.87

00:45:21.300 I like to think.

00:45:22.300 But then they had a constitutional convention

00:45:24.300 and they allowed people in a proper democratic process

00:45:28.300 to decide.

00:45:30.300 To Donna's question, I didn't mean to dodge it actually,

00:45:33.300 I just kind of forgot about that part. With Trump and a unilateral declaration of independence,

00:45:39.300 I know, geez, this is probably a whole question on its own right here. Ultimately, we should

00:45:44.180 attempt to follow the process set down of the Clarity Act. But the Clarity Act is set down

00:45:49.780 intended to fail. I do not believe at the end of the day, we would have good faith negotiations

00:45:54.100 with Ottawa and get unanimity of Ottawa and the 10 provinces or nine others. At the end of the day,

00:45:59.940 we would have to seek international recognition from foreign governments,

00:46:03.300 and I believe that the first customer's door we show up with would be the United States.

00:46:10.020 I'm going to turn this back over to Duane to respond.

00:46:14.660 Before I talk about the threat from the United States, Mr. Fulibrand mentioned how the US

00:46:21.620 declared independence, fought a war, and then developed their constitution after. That was

00:46:27.060 the second attempt right is that something that we want to go through especially given the

00:46:32.420 communication and transportation changes that exist in the 21st century that didn't exist in

00:46:38.180 the 18th century do we want to leave screw it up and then try again and especially given that

00:46:45.700 the people that the u.s was leaving were an ocean away and the people that alberta would be leaving

00:46:51.940 are right next door to us so i don't think that's a fair and equal representation on the threat from

00:46:58.340 the united states and this is a problem and i'm not saying that this is mr fildebrand's problem

00:47:04.260 but we don't have a united federalist position we don't have a united separatist position but there

00:47:09.700 are separatists who want to join the united states who say that this is step one of a two-step

00:47:16.340 process and even if you think not five million people surrounded by 35 million

00:47:23.840 surrounded by another 350 million that largely trades with that American

00:47:30.140 Empire the movement is going to occur right and so you may not like it when it

00:47:36.680 happens but that is what is going to draw in and I do think that between now

00:47:41.400 and October 19th I'm gonna wake up one morning and Donald Trump will put out

00:47:46.040 some sort of tweet that says we don't want canada as a 51st state we only want alberta and what's

00:47:53.640 going to be the reaction in this province some will cheer that i think the vast majority will

00:47:59.320 be horrified so i'm gonna i'm going to exercise my latitude here to keep this one going one more

00:48:06.760 time back to derek and that will be the closure one minute thank you so there is a very small

00:48:13.560 number who want to become a US state. I'm not one of them and I don't imagine most

00:48:17.720 independent supporters are. I don't want to trade one distant imperial capital for another.

00:48:28.200 List of countries that unilaterally declared their independence and then held constitutional

00:48:33.400 conventions to decide their own constitutional structure. Poland, Yugoslavia and then subsequent

00:48:40.600 states succeeding Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and a country

00:48:49.160 that I imagine federalists are fairly uniform in supporting the independence of right now which

00:48:53.800 declared its own independence and then decided its constitutional structure, Ukraine. They all did it.

00:49:03.400 If Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia can do it, I'm pretty sure Alberta which is larger than France

00:49:10.120 nearly twice the size of Norway and Japan, twice the size of Germany, and three times the size of

00:49:14.520 the UK, and would have the eighth largest economy on the planet. I'm pretty sure we can figure it out, too.

00:49:27.960 I think somewhere in there we touched on something we agreed on, so that was good.

00:49:32.200 My next question is to Duane. It's fair to say that Albertans are watching the

00:49:39.340 Kearney government's next moves on the energy MOU as a litmus test of trust.

00:49:45.400 There's been progress for sure. Premier Smith has been very clear. She wants the

00:49:51.020 expanded TMX West Coast pipeline on the national project list by October.

00:49:57.160 However, this isn't clear sailing. Recent Fraser Institute study warns that the energy MOU's carbon tax and carbon capture conditions make Alberta's oil and gas uncompetitive.

00:50:10.240 My question to you, Duane, Albertans ballot box decision this October will be heavily influenced by whether and how a new West Coast oil pipeline actually moves forward. Do you agree or disagree?

00:50:25.320 I think that's a major part of it, but I would hope that the fate of the country does not rest on one pipeline.

00:50:33.020 But I do think it's important.

00:50:34.740 So let's look at what Prime Minister Carney has done.

00:50:38.840 On day one of becoming Prime Minister, even before the April 2025 election, he removed the consumer-based carbon tax.

00:50:46.340 Now, yes, he did. He did.

00:50:49.480 And who instituted a consumer-based carbon tax in Alberta?

00:50:56.880 It was the Alberta government.

00:50:58.100 Who introduced the industrial carbon tax in Alberta?

00:51:02.520 It was the provincial government.

00:51:05.200 So Kearney removes what had become a major irritant, not just in Alberta, but across the rest of the country.

00:51:12.940 And he has then the first bill was Bill C-5, which said any project in the national interest would supersede a whole series of environmental regulations.

00:51:25.800 So let's see what Kearney comes with now that the MOUs have been signed, now that the pipeline submission to the major projects office has occurred.

00:51:36.900 So I think Mark Carney has made significant strides in dealing with some of these perceived anti-energy policies.

00:51:46.780 And I would argue against Mr. Poliav, who says, well, just do it.

00:51:52.620 Just do it. Forget about regulations.

00:51:55.440 Forget about Indigenous consultation.

00:51:57.800 Just do it. It is so easy. 1.00

00:51:59.560 It is not easy to do these things.

00:52:02.780 and it would not be easy in an independent Alberta if you accept the rule of law. If you don't accept

00:52:10.600 the rule of law, then it's really easy to do things. Hence the comparison that you often hear

00:52:15.840 with the Trans-Canadian Railroad of the 19th century. There's no way that we would be able

00:52:24.900 to build a project like today, nor do we want to. The amount of people that were killed,

00:52:30.240 that were displaced in building that it's simply intolerable today so I think the government the

00:52:36.580 current federal government has made an outreach the provincial government has made an outreach

00:52:42.240 and they are working together I think in some cases for different reasons I think Mark Carney's

00:52:48.780 major motivation is to diversify trade away from the United States in the case of some of that in

00:52:57.180 next question okay he's on a roll i hate to interrupt you yeah i'm gonna turn it over to

00:53:02.380 derek here yeah mark carney is admittedly at least somewhat of an improvement on trudem

00:53:11.980 i'm i'm flying to munich in a few days and uh in german we have a word back

00:53:18.060 which translates roughly as a punchable face the new prime minister does not have a punchable face

00:53:23.340 that is an improvement. But Mark Carney has a career-long history as being a radical opponent

00:53:35.660 of anything to do with oil and gas. He advised Justin Trudeau on these things. Now, it is possible

00:53:41.980 he has seen the Lord on the road to Damascus and is genuinely on our side. I don't know the question.

00:53:49.980 people do change their stripes and opinions on things over time for instance i used to be a

00:53:54.700 federalist so it is possible but one way or another the conditions that have been attached

00:54:03.420 in this mou for a new west coast pipeline are exorbitant now will it still make money at the

00:54:09.180 end of the day possible but it will mean a lot less than if we were living under any kind of

00:54:15.660 rational regime that had wealth buried beneath its feet and would dig it up and sell it for as

00:54:22.220 much money as possible as fast as possible but i actually do agree with uh duane on a point here

00:54:28.700 that the fate of the country should not rest on a single pipeline but we probably disagree about why

00:54:36.300 i we could build 10 pipelines but until alberta is treated with respect until we have equal

00:54:43.260 democratic representation in the Senate and House of Commons until our freedoms are respected and

00:54:49.260 we can't be arrested for waving a Canadian flag on Parliament Hill, disagreeing with the government.

00:54:55.100 No, it's not about a pipeline anymore. It's about a hell of a lot more.

00:55:06.700 I'm going to turn this over to Dwayne, but I have to observe that these two guys are

00:55:10.780 anticipating the next question so expect more on this so the the comment that we

00:55:17.800 can't judge Mark Carney on his actions the regulatory actions the legislative

00:55:23.500 actions the MOU actions instead we have to judge Mark Carney on speeches and

00:55:28.660 books that he wrote five or six years ago that is quite different that is

00:55:32.300 quite interesting that we can't judge actions we have to judge words from the

00:55:36.600 past. I'm going with the actions. And you may imply that the previous Prime Minister had a

00:55:42.800 punchable face. That the previous Prime Minister had a punchable face. I don't know if either of

00:55:52.100 us want to get into a boxing ring with Justin Trudeau. He's pretty good at that. And for those

00:55:57.860 talking about the obstacles to the the pipeline okay would building a pipeline to the west coast

00:56:07.300 be easier or harder as an independent country do you believe that you could force indigenous people

00:56:14.660 force the bc government force environmentalists to allow alberta to build a pipeline as opposed

00:56:21.220 to the role that the federal government played not just on this one but on the trans mountain

00:56:25.860 pipeline as well okay thank you that punchable face line really triggered people didn't it

00:56:36.180 hmm um i've got one more question it's almost seven o'clock we'd like you to be able to return

00:56:45.860 to your families return to stampede return to that beautiful weather outside so i'm going to wrap it

00:56:50.660 up here with one more question and it's going to Derek and it's kind of a

00:56:55.880 continuation of the last one because the guys plowed right into it. Mark Carney

00:57:00.860 and the Liberals have were here just before Stampede flipping pancakes of

00:57:04.740 course and making announcements about oil pipelines to the West Coast but they

00:57:12.100 warned that Alberta's flirtation with separation is dangerous. Federal

00:57:18.320 Conservatives are also campaigning to keep Alberta in Canada. My question to

00:57:24.680 you Derek, beyond pipelines the federal government and federal players of all

00:57:30.020 persuasion still need and can take concrete steps to lower the temperature

00:57:36.860 and reduce the risk of a yes vote in October. Do you agree or disagree? I agree

00:57:44.120 and I genuinely want them to do it I just don't have a very I'm not very hopeful

00:57:51.620 that they will they can't let us go the Liberals need our money and the

00:57:58.400 Conservatives need our votes at the end of the day

00:58:04.880 so but there are things that can be done I've spelled out some of it here in

00:58:11.740 In fact, some, not all, some of the questions that will be asked Albertans in a referendum

00:58:18.120 alongside independence October 19th are of that nature, allowing more provincial appointments,

00:58:25.620 not just, this is unlike Quebec's asks constitutionally, Alberta's asks are for everyone. It's not

00:58:31.360 about special treatment, it's about treating us all the same. That's fundamentally what

00:58:34.560 it's about. It's about changing judicial appointments to give the provinces more power over our

00:58:38.800 own upper courts in our own provinces it talks about the senate i think it's the wrong answer

00:58:43.200 i actually think we need a reformed senate it can be on the american the australian or the german

00:58:48.640 models any one of those are a wild improvement over the medieval system that we have here

00:58:57.600 it talks about market access strengthening our freedoms that would be a gigantic start a gigantic

00:59:04.720 start and i'd be willing to if if albertans voted for all of those and the rest of the country took

00:59:12.880 us up in good faith on that i'd be willing to uh you know change my name to ottawa i i i will

00:59:20.880 change sides and i will campaign on the federalist side if they took us up on it but they never will

00:59:26.000 we had the reform party for the west wants in we have we had our equalization referendum in 2021

00:59:32.880 and it was crickets there is just no prospect of this happening and I for one am not going to be

00:59:38.640 bought off with potentially one pipeline and I'm not going to be bought off anymore as well by

00:59:46.000 well-meaning conservatives who are willing to treat us perhaps with a bit more respect

00:59:51.520 and and act like we deserve to have a seat at the table but won't do anything that'll cost

00:59:56.720 them a vote out east it's time that we took our own side in this debate

01:00:08.160 okay duane so on the going back to the issue of the senate we did have senate reform we brought

01:00:16.240 in a triple e senate due to the work of dawn getty and burt brown it went to a referendum

01:00:22.320 as part of the charlottetown accord it was defeated including by people in alberta so there

01:00:28.640 we are with the situation i already talked about a lot of different other reforms that have been

01:00:33.280 done to the senate on the house of commons yes alberta is slightly underrepresented in the house

01:00:39.520 of commons based on population yeah three seats three seats uh so if you say we need to have

01:00:47.520 alberta have an additional three seats fair enough then would you also support ontario having an

01:00:53.600 extra 14 seats because they are the most disproportionately underserved in the house

01:00:59.440 of commons based on population and if you're upset with pei having those four seats which

01:01:07.200 as i mentioned before means that they govern confederation are you as upset with the rural

01:01:13.280 urban divide in this country both federally and provincially where rural ridings have less people

01:01:19.440 in them than urban writings i think for good reason but you can't say it's good reason for

01:01:25.760 rural folks in alberta but not in pei so these are manageable uh items these are not deal breakers

01:01:34.560 having a uh an unequal weak senate it's not good but it's not worth breaking up the country

01:01:43.040 it is not worth breaking up the country for an additional three house of common seats and i've

01:01:49.040 done the math you can see and how it looks and on the federal government and on the leader of the

01:01:56.240 official opposition both of them have to speak before canada you cannot want to be prime minister

01:02:02.560 of canada and support separatism that seems obvious but what is the carny approach i've

01:02:09.760 I've outlined the Kearney approach.

01:02:11.340 The Polyam approach is simple. 0.99

01:02:13.400 Vote for the Conservatives, okay? 0.72

01:02:15.900 And if your argument is, well, there's so many other things,

01:02:19.720 but as long as a Conservative is in Ottawa, it's no big deal.

01:02:23.580 I have numerous books on my bookshelf around separation.

01:02:28.760 I don't have Cori's.

01:02:29.900 I'm going to have to get that before I leave and have it signed nicely to me.

01:02:34.360 But one of the books is a history of separation in Alberta,

01:02:38.920 and one of the lines is separation is at a low ebb right now because the Harper

01:02:45.140 government was in office at that time but he goes on to say but if the

01:02:49.060 liberals ever return separation will rise and I can just imagine what he

01:02:54.100 would have written if it was a liberal led by a Trudeau so those would just be

01:02:59.740 my comments on that. Thank you and over to you Derek. So Duane pointed to the

01:03:09.940 Charlottetown Accord which followed the Meach Lake Accord and Albertans did vote

01:03:14.480 against it in fact the national campaign in that referendum was led by Albertans

01:03:18.580 by Preston Manning on one side and then actually by Quebec Sovereignists and

01:03:22.000 Lucien Bouchard and Perizot on the other and we the reason Westerners voted

01:03:27.740 against it overwhelmingly was yes it gave a it gave actually a two e-senate because it got rid

01:03:34.000 of the effective it it gave equal representation and elected but it took away most of the senate's

01:03:38.500 powers to check the lower house it had special racial categories for electing senators it wasn't

01:03:45.340 just provinces anymore it was going to have racial categories the charlatan accord had a whole suite

01:03:50.700 of special status for quebec and i'm actually i've i've changed my mind on quebec on a lot of things

01:03:56.040 I actually do understand them on their need to protect their culture and a lot of these things.

01:04:00.700 I started to feel like that in Alberta once in a while.

01:04:02.660 But Albertans had good reason for voting against the Charlottetown Accord.

01:04:08.320 But the Charlottetown Accord did not come about because Alberta wanted to be treated with respect.

01:04:13.760 It came about because they wanted to keep Quebec in Canada.

01:04:18.300 Okay, there we have it.

01:04:19.600 Before we do summary statements here, I'm going to give each of the debaters a chance

01:04:26.000 to have two to three minutes to finish up their arguments, but I want to ask one question

01:04:33.920 that's been niggling, and I'm going to give each of you 30 seconds to answer this, and

01:04:37.480 this is, they haven't been primed for this, they'll never hire me, they're not, am I being 0.93

01:04:42.760 paid no duh oh I'm getting a beer after one of the questions I have in my mind

01:04:51.460 is there anything that Prime Minister Mark Carney could realistically do in

01:04:57.100 the next few months that would actually cause you to change your mind I mean I'm

01:05:06.160 going to start with you, Derek. Yeah. Yes, call a constitutional convention. Bring all the provinces

01:05:15.760 together. Let's bring it all together. Let's sit down as a family of provinces, as a country that

01:05:23.100 used to, it's always been messy. I'm not going to romanticize the past, but we had our shit together 0.99

01:05:28.280 once upon a time. And if Mark Carney can do that, I still don't believe he'll succeed, but I think 0.94

01:05:35.300 we would owe it to ourselves and fellow Canadians, because we still are Canadians, even if we

01:05:41.100 identify, some of us identify most as Albertans, we would owe it to ourselves and our fellow

01:05:45.600 Canadians to sit down in good faith and see if we could hash this out. I don't believe it would

01:05:51.340 come anywhere, but I think we'd owe it to ourselves, our children, and those who came before us to sit

01:05:56.480 down and do it. Thank you. Duane. So a couple things. One is Mark Carney has met much more

01:06:06.700 regularly with the premiers than the previous prime minister did on issues around U.S. trade,

01:06:12.920 on major projects, and has been working quite nicely with those premiers, including both Daniel

01:06:20.720 Smith Scott Moe and Doug Ford all conservatives now I can just imagine if Mark Carney announced

01:06:28.640 that he was going to institute constitutional change bringing in a convention bringing in

01:06:33.680 all the premiers what the reaction would be what about affordability what about trade

01:06:40.160 what about pipelines why are we spending our time on the constitution and so the people that are

01:06:45.760 chairing a constitutional convention today would be opposing a constitutional change probably the

01:06:53.000 same day. Thank you. It's a tough question. It's one you might want to ask yourself too. I'm just

01:06:59.300 putting it out there. Okay, we're going to do summaries here. Last word. I'm going to start

01:07:05.120 with you, Derek. Oh, I have the first opening one. So what? No, I get to decide. Okay, you're in

01:07:09.820 charge we agreed needs to do oh yes mom okay uh well first of all i want to thank uh donna for

01:07:19.260 be doing a great job as a moderator tonight and duane this uh i wanted a roughly split room but

01:07:26.140 uh i i think duane has showed some courage here uh tonight we don't agree on the time of day

01:07:31.900 generally but uh there were other people who were invited to be uh to be my opponent tonight

01:07:36.780 and Dwayne took it up with a room that is, I think, predominantly Western Standard, so thank you.

01:07:48.620 Ottawa plunders Alberta's wealth to buy votes in other parts of Canada.

01:07:52.940 We know this, but that is not why we support sovereignty. Ottawa has spent a decade moving

01:07:58.780 heaven and earth to stop Alberta from becoming as prosperous as she could be. We all know this,

01:08:05.020 but still that is not why we support sovereignty we must chart our own course because the Canada

01:08:12.140 that once was has resigned itself to decline and destruction I have always believed and continue

01:08:19.020 to believe that a reformed and resurgent Canada is the best path forward for Alberta and the West

01:08:25.820 real change to things like market access equalization representation in the House of

01:08:30.700 Commons in the Senate, protecting our liberties, these all require reopening the Constitution.

01:08:36.780 Quebec holds a veto over any reforms and will never agree to receiving less money

01:08:41.980 and would come with a grab bag of its own demands for special treatment. The Atlantic provinces

01:08:47.180 likewise will never agree to end equalization or their over-representation in both Houses of

01:08:52.140 Parliament. Who here remembers the referendum on ending equalization in 2021? Show of hands.

01:09:01.580 Now, who here remembers the response from Ottawa and the other provinces?

01:09:07.900 No, you don't. There was none. It was silence. Deafening silence. Canada will not take up the

01:09:17.420 call that the West wants in. And to those who stand against independence, I ask you,

01:09:23.740 What is your proposal? What will you do to fix this country beyond negotiate with Liberals

01:09:31.020 and vote for Conservatives? Is it more of the same? Do we continue down the path of national

01:09:37.420 destruction? Albertans, Albertans, we're not going to vote our way out from this under the federal

01:09:47.580 system that is why we have but two options left we accept going down with the ship or we take our

01:09:55.740 destiny into our own hands and we declare independence over to you duane so just on

01:10:13.500 equalization i can't believe it's at the end of the debate and we barely touched on equalization

01:10:18.540 it wasn't just that the federal government and the other provinces didn't respond neither did

01:10:22.300 the alberta government and quite frankly you don't even need a referendum for the alberta government

01:10:28.460 to put equalization on the agenda and the current government hasn't done that the last government

01:10:35.020 didn't do that whether that is removing it from the constitution or adjusting the formula and if

01:10:41.820 If you don't like the idea of equalization and you don't like relatively equal schools

01:10:48.800 and healthcare systems across the country, which is what equalization is, then you might

01:10:54.280 not like equalization in the province of Alberta that does the same thing.

01:11:00.620 The onus is not on me to show why we need to stay in Canada.

01:11:06.900 The onus, given the risk, is on Mr. Fildebrand to convince you why you need to go.

01:11:13.440 Now, I will acknowledge it's a lot more fun to be a separatist.

01:11:18.100 As we saw in the Quebec referendums, as we saw in the Brexit referendum,

01:11:22.280 you get your videos, you get your memes, you have your fun rallies, you get your emotion.

01:11:28.580 No matter what the issue or question is, the answer is always separation.

01:11:33.300 and you can promise a utopia and very different types of utopia but there are consequences to

01:11:40.300 these false promises as we have seen in brexit canada is great because of alberta alberta is

01:11:49.760 great because of canada canada is one of the longest democracies in the world we have been

01:11:57.280 a democracy since 1867 that it's longer than germany longer than japan longer than france

01:12:04.720 longer than italy we are a peaceful country we are economically prosperous people country

01:12:13.040 there's 195 countries we're in the top 15 just on gdp and per capita income and on wealth that

01:12:21.120 is pretty good we have personal freedoms we live in a great country now for the separatists in the

01:12:32.640 room everything good about alberta is due to the hard work and ingenuity solely of albertans

01:12:39.520 everything bad is due to ottawa and other provinces but you can't disentangle them

01:12:47.280 you can't say well mobility rights and educational mobility have strengthened alberta

01:12:54.960 but those don't count what we need to focus on is the things that we don't like

01:12:59.840 as opposed to the things that have benefited us okay

01:13:10.080 well folks that is it for the evening and i think we should have a round of applause for both of

01:13:15.760 of these debaters.

01:13:27.400 And before you get up and leave, I just want to tell you that I'm grateful for the civility

01:13:34.060 in this room tonight.

01:13:37.000 This is what we need to take out into the rest of Alberta and the rest of the country.

01:13:41.920 This is emotional.

01:13:43.340 There's nothing more emotional.

01:13:44.960 three boys I talked about, those sons, they all live in Alberta. So do my

01:13:48.380 grandkids. This matters to every one of us. That's why I'm here. We have to figure

01:13:55.460 out a way to talk about these issues and make decisions because this is incredibly

01:14:01.160 polarizing and we're all Albertans. So we need to figure this out and your being

01:14:08.080 here is a step in the right direction. So thank you.

01:14:14.960 Thank you.

Western Standard - July 21, 2026

Independence Debate with Derek Fildebrandt and Duane Bratt [FULL VIDEO]

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript