Western Standard - March 30, 2021

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00:03:00.000 Thank you.

00:03:30.000 Thank you.

00:04:00.000 a very good tuesday evening to you all my name is dave naylor i'm the news editor of the western

00:04:25.520 standard and i'm honored tonight to kick off a very special edition of danielle smith uncensored

00:04:33.520 she'll be interviewing tonight for two hours pastor james coates uh who as you all know has

00:04:39.440 gained worldwide attention for refusing to bend to government covet regulations and having to suffer

00:04:48.400 through uh a month in in jail a couple of paper a couple of housekeeping things we need to get rid

00:04:55.840 of uh the western standard uh does not accept a penny of federal government media bailout money

00:05:04.080 uh we uh we get by on uh to a large degree with memberships uh so please if you like what you see

00:05:11.440 please join up and help us out and we currently have a 15-day free trial period so sign up for

00:05:21.320 that if you like what you see continue your support as always our show is sponsored by

00:05:29.080 Kyron's Way now Kyron is a sort of or sorry penny that Kyron's Way is a certified natural

00:05:36.760 nature therapist. Nutriist, excuse me. She's a heart math intervention practitioner and basically

00:05:46.340 takes your stress of today's society and helps you deal with it in a non-drug-free way.

00:05:54.700 She's a lovely lady and, you know, I can guarantee she'll be able to help you out. So

00:06:01.460 So please visit her and support one of our sponsors.

00:06:08.900 So, Danielle, that's enough from me.

00:06:11.920 You and Pastor James, as he likes to be called, have enough to talk about.

00:06:16.600 So if anybody wants to comment, and I expect there will be some, please do so.

00:06:23.100 Keep it short and snappy and vulgarity-free.

00:06:26.600 And I'll moderate them and try and get up as many as we can.

00:06:29.920 If you have questions that you would like Danielle to ask Pastor James, put them in the comment section, and I've arranged a back channel to send them to Danielle.

00:06:41.160 So with that, Danielle, all yours.

00:06:44.660 You got it.

00:06:45.160 Thanks so much for that, Dave.

00:06:46.280 And I can see we've already got a ton of comments coming in, but Dave's going to help me sift through those as we go on in our conversation.

00:06:52.860 Let me just frame this out for you a little bit, because I think Pastor James and I came to a lot of the same conclusions at the same time.

00:07:02.820 And his way of demonstrating his resistance to government orders came, as you saw, my way of demonstrating my resistance came from me leaving media.

00:07:13.060 And I had announced in January I was leaving media, a lot because I felt that there was suppression of information.

00:07:19.620 I was very frustrated by that.

00:07:20.980 It's part of the reason we've done this uncensored series.

00:07:24.080 But there really was a last straw.

00:07:26.080 And you'll recall what happened in that final week that I was on the air.

00:07:30.460 February 14th was the date of Pastor James's final sermon before turning himself into the

00:07:37.260 RCMP, which I believe he did on February the 17th.

00:07:40.860 And it was February the 19th that I had the premier on the show saying, what in the world

00:07:45.700 are you doing?

00:07:46.560 And faced off an awful lot of resistance.

00:07:49.620 to releasing the pastor. And so I've been watching his case for some time. I had a regular listener,

00:07:54.800 Angela, who's a parishioner of Pastor James, goes to that church. So she was telling me what was

00:08:00.760 going on in the lead up to it. And I could barely believe it. I think the world could barely believe

00:08:04.220 it. And to have hardened criminals released from remand because they were facing COVID overcrowding

00:08:12.460 and to have pastor james stay incarcerated was baffling so we were fortunate to watch that he

00:08:19.580 did get released last week we're going to find out about that but um and we're also going to

00:08:23.500 talk a little more about religious freedom i mean i've always been a big supporter of religious

00:08:27.660 freedom as you know but what does religious freedom actually mean is it religious freedom

00:08:32.620 to do what the government tells you to do or something more than that so we're going to talk

00:08:36.460 about that tonight so without further ado let me introduce pastor james coates pastor james thanks

00:08:41.580 so much for being with us this evening thank you for having me i want to yeah well i want to go

00:08:46.780 back to that i'm going to have to deal with it in chunks because i think people are really

00:08:51.020 interested in knowing if you're okay after the experience of of five weeks and in reman and so

00:08:57.420 let's begin where i just left off there with what happened on uh on february the 17th

00:09:04.300 because i i gather that you weren't expecting that they were going to to detain you so so tell us

00:09:10.940 Tell us how that all went down. Well, it was the 16th, as I recall. And that was a Tuesday.

00:09:18.020 And I went to the RCMP office, turned myself in, was told that. I mean, ultimately, that the call would be in the hands of the justice of the peace.

00:09:29.000 And so I was I was told that. I mean, they can't be too specific, but but it was implied that I'd probably be able to go home that day.

00:09:40.060 Obviously, I'm not putting a lot of stock in that because I do understand that it's the justice of the peace is going to decide.

00:09:47.060 But but I was there. I was in a cell. I spent the day in a cell and and was brought before a justice of the peace for a second time because the first time was adjourned.

00:09:57.380 um later in the afternoon or evening i'd lost track of time by that point and um you know there

00:10:04.500 was um the the record of of our um non-compliance with regard to the health orders that was brought

00:10:12.180 before the justice of the peace and uh he um made his decision put together the paperwork sent to

00:10:19.460 the drcmp i didn't know for sure what i was going to be faced with at that point in time but i i

00:10:25.860 my lawyers have been good and in terms of priming my pump and having me aware of what could be

00:10:31.780 i knew that i wouldn't be able to agree to a condition and the way that the um the paperwork

00:10:38.020 came to me it was either agree or uh you can't be released and so at that point in time um i had to

00:10:44.340 indicate that i couldn't agree to that condition uh by agree by agreeing to that condition i was

00:10:48.980 essentially uh bowing the knee to caesar i was i'd be saying that jesus christ isn't the head of his

00:10:54.420 church i would be giving up my um my call as a pastor to shepherd the flock and so i i could not

00:11:01.700 do that and and that meant that i was going to be held in custody so let's let me just make sure i

00:11:07.300 understand what that condition was because if i understand that they wanted you to agree that you

00:11:12.020 were going to go away and follow all of the health orders otherwise you you wouldn't preach am i am

00:11:18.820 i summarizing that right is that what they were asking you to to sign as an undertaking yeah

00:11:22.980 everything has always been about compliance so ahs or or the rcmp and in this case the justice of the

00:11:29.140 peace um have been trying to get us to comply with the health orders and to do that would

00:11:34.500 fundamentally alter the way that we gather and would prevent us from allowing the word of god to

00:11:41.300 shape and and determine how we gather as a local church and so the condition simply precluded me

00:11:48.980 from stepping foot on our property unless we were in full compliance with the public health orders.

00:11:56.580 Now that's incredibly difficult because I'm a pastor of a congregation of a few hundred people

00:12:02.980 and so part of the compliance component doesn't even have anything to do with me. I can't guarantee

00:12:10.980 that everyone's going to be six feet apart the entire time they're together and I'm certainly

00:12:15.860 not going to force people to wear masks against their own will and conscience so i mean even what

00:12:22.020 they're requiring me to do goes well beyond what i humanly could anyway and so i just i knew i

00:12:29.060 couldn't agree to that i wasn't going to force people to wear masks i wasn't going to micromanage

00:12:33.060 behavior and so you had to be six feet apart and uh and so i knew that i couldn't fulfill that

00:12:38.660 condition well this is the thing that's surprising to me because there are many people who aren't

00:12:43.060 following many different parts of the health orders but they're not getting incarcerated

00:12:47.620 there there's lots of people who are taking a fine and then going and fighting the fine and

00:12:52.900 it seems it seems like overkill that they decided to incarcerate you rather than just give you a

00:12:58.100 fine did they explain why they took that route well i think i think there were just many attempts

00:13:04.420 to try and utilize tools that would that would compel us to comply because that's what ahs is

00:13:11.060 after they're after compliance and given the fact that we had stood as tall as we did the sermon

00:13:17.700 that I preached on December 20th certainly drew attention we had plenty of complaints coming in

00:13:22.660 from the community around us and and then even our public statement up the ante as well I'm sure

00:13:29.700 because we began to address the narrative that we're unloving to our community that we're not

00:13:36.020 thinking about our neighbors that we're that we're being selfish and self-centered and what we're

00:13:40.420 doing and so i just think we stood the tallest and and they they employed the tools that were

00:13:47.060 available to them to get us to comply the last one was the undertaking and i i think that that was

00:13:52.740 an ill-advised tool that they utilized against me and um and not only did it require me to go

00:14:00.500 to jail for five weeks i believe it backfired significantly oh i i think you're totally right

00:14:06.740 now i thought the sermon that got you in trouble was february 14th you told me earlier it was

00:14:11.700 december 20th so i listened to that uh before our interview today so i do want to talk to you about

00:14:16.580 the content of both of those and why you came to the conclusion that you did but i again i want to

00:14:21.460 make sure that everyone knows that you weren't harmed while you were in there i mean there's

00:14:25.460 always a being being subjected the way you were to uh the heavy hand of of government is going to

00:14:32.900 to be traumatizing no matter who you are. But what happened in the five weeks you were in there?

00:14:38.880 Because I think when I spoke with your wife, Erin, she had mentioned that because you were

00:14:43.100 taken into the facility, you had to go into a COVID quarantine for two weeks. And so what was

00:14:49.620 that like? And then you would have been released to the general population, which actually gives

00:14:53.660 me a bit more anxiety thinking about it because there's some bad dudes in there. So let's begin

00:14:57.760 with the first two weeks that you were in there. How did that go down?

00:15:01.000 Yeah, the first two weeks, I mean, they were challenging because I was in quarantine.

00:15:04.740 It wasn't quite solitary.

00:15:06.240 That gives it a bit of an inaccurate picture.

00:15:09.360 I was on a normal pod.

00:15:10.740 It's just that it was highly controlled because it was a quarantine pod.

00:15:14.600 And so I was in my cell for basically 23 hours and 30 minutes a day, unless there was a visit from a chaplain or something like that.

00:15:23.100 I was out for 15 minutes at a time.

00:15:25.960 There was one day that I think I spent like 23 hours straight in my cell.

00:15:30.320 before I'd had a 50-minute break to get out and call my wife or have a shower, whatever the case

00:15:35.180 is. And so, you know, that was a bit challenging. Now, at the same time, it gave me some protection,

00:15:41.780 excuse me, to be able to learn the culture that I was in and learn how things work. And so,

00:15:49.560 you know, I was certainly in my cell a lot and initially only being allowed out by myself

00:15:54.900 because i was under what they call an administrative watch and uh and so you know it was an adjustment

00:16:01.620 for sure uh learning the ropes um i think by the end of the quarantine i actually was looking

00:16:07.140 forward to being in general public uh because i'd be able to interact with the guys and and i wanted

00:16:12.980 to be able to have some human interaction by that point there was obviously some nervousness to your

00:16:17.460 point and not knowing exactly what to expect and and uh and not knowing how volatile things would

00:16:23.380 be but but in that first two weeks the way the guards related to me as well as

00:16:28.760 some of the guys that I did interact with it was positive and so I thought

00:16:32.680 well if that carries on things will go well in GP tell me a bit about what what

00:16:37.480 is the call I mean so many of us have never had that experience what what is

00:16:41.500 the culture of remand what did you have what did you find in those two weeks

00:16:44.560 what were you learning well you've got to learn just how the whole system works

00:16:50.260 as far as food is concerned and and and you know your your door just unlocks and then it locks and

00:16:56.420 you got to kind of figure out okay why is it unlocking right now and and and and why is it

00:17:00.820 locking right now and and so it's a it's a challenge to kind of figure out the schedule of

00:17:06.260 things um there's obviously a certain culture as far as what you say what you don't say there's

00:17:12.100 certain words you don't use certain words you avoid and and and do so at all costs they're

00:17:17.540 they're words that wouldn't normally be an issue outside uh and would be very benign but there's

00:17:23.300 certain names you know you don't call an inmate when you're when you're in remand um you're

00:17:29.300 learning just the the interaction with the guards you're you're just trying to get a handle on

00:17:34.500 everything i think um it's even difficult to put my finger on i had the chaplains that were coming

00:17:40.340 to me and and trying to get me up to speed on everything and and and help me understand what

00:17:44.980 what I was stepping into. But it's a bit of a blur to me in some respects. I haven't had enough time

00:17:50.380 to really digest everything to be able to thoughtfully articulate just exactly what I

00:17:57.620 experienced. So when you went into what you're calling general public, what was that experience

00:18:03.700 like? Because I think, I mean, you were in there because of a violation, an alleged violation of a

00:18:11.000 health order. I'm sure there's some people in there for unpaid parking or speeding fines, but

00:18:16.820 there's some bad people in there, isn't there? Well, I mean, you know, I presume so. I mean,

00:18:24.040 I didn't ask everybody why they were in there. There were a couple of guys that I got to know,

00:18:28.080 and I could ask them why they were in there. And one gentleman shared with me, it was

00:18:32.120 attempted murder. But they're at remand, so they're not convicted as yet. They're in process

00:18:39.220 and and going through the court system um but you know the guys were were actually quite quite good

00:18:46.740 to me now you need to understand that in a cell there are four radio stations one is ched so um

00:18:52.880 a lot of guys are listening to ched and and ched as you know uh runs a news recap every 30 minutes

00:18:59.540 on the the hour and half hour and and as you can imagine i was in that loop quite often so

00:19:05.320 so everyone knew of me uh they didn't necessarily know right away who i was but that's one thing

00:19:10.840 about the culture at remand is word spread quickly and so uh guys knew who i was before i'd met them

00:19:18.040 and and guys were coming to my door and knocking on my door wanting to speak with me wanting to

00:19:23.200 share their their their difficulties with me i was able to share the gospel with them talking to them

00:19:28.520 through the door i'd be locked in maybe on the other side and we would be having a conversation

00:19:33.140 together about the lord uh so i was able to do that um i had you know one gentleman i recall

00:19:39.780 he uh he he was told that i was the the pastor and he was looking at me going like no no he's

00:19:44.900 not the guy really he's the guy no and and i said yeah i'm the guy he's like man you're like a

00:19:49.700 celebrity you know and and guys were asking me to sign their bibles and and sign books and and do

00:19:55.940 stuff like that so you know the guys were were very good to me did that did that surprise you

00:20:02.180 Because I guess I might have thought that because you had taken such a public position, because you're Christian, I thought there's all kinds of reasons why they, because you hadn't been in that environment before, I guess I would have thought there might have been all kinds of reasons why you might have been targeted.

00:20:19.340 You know, I wasn't totally sure.

00:20:21.820 I mean, it was just kind of putting your foot in and checking the temperature of the water and going step by step and learning as I went.

00:20:28.440 And the more guys I interacted with, the more the more positive things were.

00:20:33.180 I think in that context, they're trying to figure out if you're the real deal or are you a fraud.

00:20:38.440 And so I think they're kind of watching you closely and want to want to see if you truly are who you say you are.

00:20:43.500 And I think over time, by God's grace, I was able to win their hearts and they knew that I was the real deal.

00:20:50.980 And so I think I had the respect and they were they were gracious to show that respect to me.

00:20:58.440 often. That's an amazing story. Now Erin expressed concern about a couple things. She said number one

00:21:05.340 you're very active and very healthy. She was worried about your diet and whether you were

00:21:09.200 staying healthy physically. Did that get resolved? Did you sort that out? The health part was the

00:21:14.500 hard part. So initially in quarantine all I had was canteen rather sorry all I had was the food

00:21:19.440 they were providing. No canteen and and really the food they provide is not suffice to fuel

00:21:26.240 the body and so I had to get through the first week without canteen and then I got canteen and

00:21:33.800 then it was a matter of you're not eating the best food to supplement the lack of calories that

00:21:39.380 you're taking in each day and so after a couple of weeks of not eating as well as I could have been

00:21:46.020 I did have a health episode where I woke up dizzy one morning and just I couldn't get out of bed

00:21:53.200 that day. And that happens from time to time. And normally, in normal life now, I can manage that

00:21:59.200 and avoid that. But in this case, I wasn't able to. So I, by the time I left, I think I figured out

00:22:06.460 how to utilize the canteen to be able to eat well, get the calories I need, but not put myself in

00:22:13.460 jeopardy. But it takes some time and I'm gluten free, for example. So there's those kinds of

00:22:18.900 issues that i have to navigate and uh and so i i think i got it in the end but it was a challenge

00:22:24.580 for sure and maybe one of the biggest difficulties that i had because obviously you know if you can't

00:22:28.980 eat well and get enough food and what you are eating is making you um you know unable to get

00:22:34.260 out of bed in the morning that that's that's uh that's a challenge no kidding the other thing

00:22:38.580 erin mentioned was just that you're you love intellectual challenge and gosh i mean i uh my

00:22:45.380 husband was just giving me the gears because he said you're constantly on

00:22:48.340 your phone i don't imagine that you're able to

00:22:50.260 to zip through and pass the time on your iphone while you were in there but 23

00:22:54.180 hours straight in your cell in those early days without a break

00:22:57.780 how did you keep from going stir crazy that's a great question

00:23:01.380 um you know i i i found out again that i like doing word searches

00:23:06.420 so um they were gracious enough to give me some word searches

00:23:09.460 and uh and so that helped obviously i spent time in the word and prayer that

00:23:12.820 was significant uh my mind is incredibly active so i probably killed a lot of time just meditating

00:23:19.140 and thinking on uh all the matters that i was uh that i was facing at that point in time um

00:23:25.940 so yeah i mean it was a challenge but and it's a bit of a blur i mean when you look at it five

00:23:30.180 weeks went by fast in another sense the the first day seems like a long time ago and uh and so um

00:23:38.660 it was a challenge staying active i was able to to do some exercises in my cell to to to keep

00:23:45.060 the heart beating a little bit and and that was good um and then you know initially in quarantine

00:23:51.300 i was on my own for most of that then i went to gp was given a cell mate and and so we kind of

00:23:56.820 kept each other uh stimulated a little bit with our conversations and discussions and stuff like

00:24:01.460 that how did that relationship go with your cell mate yeah it was good we took a little bit to to

00:24:06.900 really gel but he took a liking to me early on and uh and even before we were cellmates so it

00:24:12.180 was sort of providential that that the lord marked him out to be my cellmate and uh and so we uh we

00:24:19.220 had a decent thing going on he's called me since he's been in the remand or since i've left rather

00:24:24.100 and uh we'll probably keep in touch he he calls me his pastor now and uh and so we we had we had

00:24:32.260 a pretty good thing. He liked when I read the Bible to him. I would sing hymns from time to

00:24:36.920 time. And he loved when I sung those songs. And so he was good. He was a good guy. He looked out

00:24:43.280 for me. And I think he may have done some things just to make sure that everybody was going to

00:24:50.300 take care of me a little bit. And so he was an ally for sure. That's amazing. Let's talk a bit

00:24:55.920 about the guards. I mean, I feel badly for the corrections officers because there are a lot of

00:25:00.760 people who made decisions that put you in that environment and now they're the ones having to

00:25:05.640 manage the situation and manage their relationship with you how did you find the guards interacted

00:25:10.440 with you yeah the guards were pretty good i mean i think they were very respectful

00:25:15.480 often expressed support for what i was doing um they uh they were kind to me for the most part

00:25:21.800 and and so i look uh fondly on a number of my interactions with the uh the guards there was

00:25:27.880 There's one guard, for example, that I had in the quarantine, and he ended up coming

00:25:31.220 into my pod on GP, and I saw him behind the desk and actually called down to the guards

00:25:37.080 and just said, hey, can you put the gentleman that's behind you on the intercom?

00:25:41.780 And so he and I had a bit of a chat and reconnected that way.

00:25:44.560 He was a very supportive guy.

00:25:46.880 So, yeah, they were overall very good to me and kind to me, and I didn't get to interact

00:25:53.920 a great deal with them one-on-one for any length of time.

00:25:57.180 so i didn't have really solid conversations with them about the lord for example as i would have

00:26:02.540 liked there's a bit of a distance that's kept between guards and and inmates but but for the

00:26:07.340 most part i think they were on their best behavior because i was there let's um let's talk about how

00:26:13.340 you're feeling about the system i mean i don't even i can't but did you ever have an experience

00:26:17.900 that was anything like that it's so surreal i mean i don't know if there's any time that you've been

00:26:23.020 doing ministry around the world where you face such such conditions as you did over these past

00:26:27.580 five weeks but have you have you been able to process that i mean it's it's it's it's unlike

00:26:35.580 anything i've ever experienced in one sense now i i think it's helpful to indicate for context

00:26:40.780 sake that i did grow up in scarborough ontario and so and i i wasn't saved until i was 23 years

00:26:46.380 old. So I acquired a healthy degree of street sense just from my first 23 years on this green

00:26:56.340 earth. So I didn't feel like I was completely ill-equipped to be able to interact with a wide

00:27:01.680 variety of individuals that I would in prison. And there is a wide spectrum of character in prison.

00:27:08.140 You've got older men, younger men. You've got guys that are maybe in gangs, other guys that

00:27:12.540 that that wouldn't be in gangs and so there's there's a wide variety of of um of guys in in

00:27:20.220 in prison and and i was able to interact with with all of them and relate to each one um in a way

00:27:26.700 that was uh i think helpful and so uh yeah i mean it's a it's a world like i've never been a part

00:27:33.800 of in one sense but but there's it's it's also just um it's just the world but in a a different

00:27:41.400 context and so i i've grown up in this world i live in this world and so it's not it's not

00:27:45.960 totally alien but yeah there are certainly elements that are different for sure well i

00:27:49.800 think we're all grateful but the experience as bad as it was was so relatively positive so let's

00:27:56.440 let's not talk about how you're feeling towards government because you mentioned that ched was

00:28:01.640 playing on the radio i was so mad at jason kenny that day i just i couldn't believe when dr dina

00:28:07.880 hinshaw was asked about it in her update and i played a portion of what she said and essentially

00:28:13.880 she was saying well you know don't blame the health care system this isn't ahs this is the

00:28:18.520 decision of the rcmp who chose to enforce it and it's the decision of the court who chose to put

00:28:24.360 him in this behind bars and i suppose it's the decision of the prosecutor to choose to put it

00:28:29.400 forward and i just thought wow is that ever a dodge the only reason any of this is happening

00:28:34.760 was because of dr dina hinchas health orders which were approved by premier jason kenney and

00:28:39.960 i couldn't believe that they were sort of blaming everybody else along the path for what had happened

00:28:44.280 to you so so tell me how how you're perceiving it how you're perceiving it now first of all i think

00:28:49.320 you you told me that you actually heard me giving giving the premier the gears that day i wonder how

00:28:55.000 how did that how did you feel about that i felt fantastic i mean i i chet had announced that he

00:29:00.760 was going to be on with you and and so i was sure to catch that part of your show and uh and was

00:29:05.480 just greatly encouraged that somebody would press him the way that that you did and so i was uh

00:29:11.240 encouraged i was grateful um i was looking forward to connecting with you once lord willing i got out

00:29:18.440 so i could share that with you and and obviously i have and uh so yeah it was it was encouraging

00:29:24.520 uh for that to take place as it relates to like whether jason kenny could have brought about my

00:29:29.400 release or not and to what extent dina hinshaw was involved in my incarceration i mean that's all

00:29:34.360 outside of my sphere of expertise um so i i i think i understand that ahs is the one that

00:29:41.080 does the enforcement that they are enforcing dina hinshaw's health orders that the rcmp

00:29:46.920 is leveraged by ahs to bring about enforcement and so i think there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen

00:29:52.680 to what extent each cook is involved i i don't really know that's that's beyond my pay grade

00:29:58.120 i guess the thing i'm trying to to sort through here is that there's always discretion everywhere

00:30:03.560 along the the line of enforcement there's discretion for officers to choose whether

00:30:09.160 they're going to up to pursue a charge there's discretion for the court to determine whether

00:30:14.920 they're going to keep you behind bars there's discretion for a prosecutor to determine whether

00:30:19.960 they have a reasonable chance of conviction and i'm just trying to figure out why everyone was

00:30:24.840 so intent on throwing the book at you do you have some insights as to as to why that would be well i

00:30:29.960 think when it comes down to it um going the route of the undertaking no one believed that if i was

00:30:36.200 faced with a condition that was either release or comply that i would say i can't comply so again i

00:30:43.960 think i think their goal was to bring about compliance that that didn't bring about compliance

00:30:50.760 and and ultimately backfired and i don't know that they've used that approach on any other

00:30:56.200 pastor since then and i'm not sure they will at least for now and so i think they were just trying

00:31:01.400 to utilize a measure they could to get me to comply with the health orders and that was the

00:31:07.160 approach they took and it just it backfired immensely and so all they want is compliance

00:31:12.920 if we would just comply everything would be well and and we just can't comply with their health

00:31:18.200 orders because their health orders alter our corporate gathering to such an extent that it's

00:31:23.240 no longer the corporate gathering and so if we were in compliance with alberta health services

00:31:28.440 this past year we would be a year into not having a corporate gathering where we as a local church

00:31:33.960 come together as one body and worship the lord jesus christ and we just can't do that well and

00:31:39.400 this is the interesting part and again i want to understand why your interpretation of scripture

00:31:44.520 is different than other pastors who who have acquiesced who have

00:31:48.760 who have changed their the way they meet to fall into alignment with

00:31:52.920 with the different rules in in each province so i want to get to that but

00:31:56.520 you if you waited them out for five weeks

00:32:00.040 can you shed some light and i don't want to do anything that might harm your

00:32:02.760 case because you you are ultimately going to be

00:32:05.240 going to to trial in may as i understand it

00:32:08.680 but they're they they backed down on the charges to the point where you

00:32:13.720 didn't have to sign that undertaking because i saw you up behind the pulpit on

00:32:17.160 on sunday so that said to me that you're allowed to be there and they didn't

00:32:20.760 race up to arrest you then so how did all of that come together

00:32:24.680 and we know that your lawyer james kitchen justice center for constitutional

00:32:27.800 freedoms has been doing a lot of work on your behalf what what do you think

00:32:30.520 happened there well i think you know um a lawyer was

00:32:36.360 added to my case and and he was pretty um committed to trying to get me out of

00:32:40.440 jail and and so he went to the crown and just sought to see if there was any way that um the

00:32:47.640 crown would be willing to adjust the condition in order to allow me to be released and and propose

00:32:54.040 at that point in time that there be um a dropping of the condition down to a basic keep the peace

00:33:01.000 which is just standard for for anyone who is uh released on bail and uh i actually wouldn't have

00:33:07.400 taken that anyway because keep the peace as you know means keep the law and at present the the

00:33:13.480 legal system is functioning as though uh what dina hinshaw is doing and her health orders are law

00:33:18.920 and therefore if i was to to be released on that condition and then host a gathering i'd be in

00:33:24.440 violation of my my bail condition and that opens up a huge can of worms beyond uh what i've i was

00:33:30.280 already in the midst of and so that didn't appeal to me at all and uh and ultimately it's hard to

00:33:35.400 know exactly how it all went from there but the crown came back with an offer that just recognized

00:33:40.200 in my estimation they understood my conviction i think they were they were realizing um that i i

00:33:47.160 wasn't just making a public statement that this was not just some sort of political revolutionary

00:33:53.240 act on my behalf that i was truly um on principle and conviction before the lord jesus christ and so

00:34:00.280 So they made an offer that allowed me to plead guilty to something that I did while at the same time allowing me to do so without being repentant.

00:34:07.860 And I can say it that way because obviously the charge still on the table in some senses is for me because I want to contest the legitimacy of these laws.

00:34:19.740 And so by virtue of holding that charge over my head, it gives me an opportunity to go to bat, go to war through my legal team with the legitimacy of these laws.

00:34:32.760 And so so, yeah, I mean, I don't know if that helps to kind of what the crown did is they gave me an offer that that that it almost checked off every possible box that would remove the condition and allow me to come out and do what I've always been doing.

00:34:49.200 And so, you know, I guess I could have been some sort of, you know, dug my heels in and waited out the crown and maybe they would have dropped all the charges.

00:34:59.360 But but that just wasn't why I was there.

00:35:01.380 I was there because they were trying to prevent me from shepherding the flock at Grace Life Church.

00:35:06.920 That's my responsibility before Christ.

00:35:09.520 And so to to dig my heels in and try and, you know, get them to drop all the charges was shifting what it was all about for me.

00:35:16.620 And so I said, well, you know what, I did breach the condition in that undertaking. I never agreed to the condition. I never told them I would comply with that condition. In fact, I told them I couldn't comply with that condition. And so I didn't violate my word and my integrity, but I did violate the undertaking itself.

00:35:33.500 and and we would have tested that as well in terms of uh testing the legitimacy of that that approach

00:35:39.440 with me in my trial but in the end um you know i i just i i i pled guilty to what i did and you

00:35:47.240 you were prepared though to stay there until your trial and in may were you well i have to be honest

00:35:52.820 i while i was in there i i wasn't sure i was ever going to get out i mean i i had to be i had to be

00:35:59.980 okay with the possibility that I might never get out of jail and um and so I just I yeah I mean I

00:36:08.040 was prepared to be there until May um I that's not because it was easy there were moments when

00:36:15.120 it was difficult for sure but but at the end of the day when you're when you're functioning on

00:36:21.200 the basis of a conviction that you have from God it's it's it's what it's what carries you through

00:36:29.480 all of those moments of difficulty and weakness so um yeah let's talk then what led up to the

00:36:35.440 december 20th sermon that you gave so there's a few things we'll have to go back to because

00:36:40.240 you you did honor the health orders like all of us did back in march april when it was really

00:36:46.540 unclear what this disease was going to do who was going to affect how harmful it was going to be

00:36:52.260 so what what changed for you so why and i think maybe that's some something that the authorities

00:36:57.680 don't understand it was well you're willing to do this back in march april what's the big deal now

00:37:02.080 that we're telling you to do it again in november tell us what changed in your view well i mean we

00:37:07.360 complied initially reluctantly um you know obviously we we were ignorant with respect

00:37:13.840 to the virus we didn't we didn't know how severe it was the government was projecting to be

00:37:18.080 incredibly severe uh we we didn't have a good handle on the law um how our country works how

00:37:26.800 our legal system works. And then two, we had some areas of our theology that hadn't ever really been

00:37:33.880 tested, and we had to refine them. Like, for example, what is our response to government?

00:37:38.000 We're commanded in Romans 13 to be subject to government. We know there's a limit on that,

00:37:43.300 because we know there's a point when we obey God, not man. And so when is that? And does this

00:37:50.420 circumstance call for civil disobedience, where we obey God, not man. And so, you know, it was a

00:37:57.160 challenge to work through all those issues. And so we initially comply, we're initially

00:38:01.600 complying with the health orders and capacity limits that are in place. And then over time,

00:38:09.800 as the data rolls in, and as we wrestle through the scriptures and what they teach on this

00:38:15.000 on this matter. And as the public health emergency that was declared came to an end,

00:38:21.440 we believed it was time to open up, that we had sufficient reason theologically and also

00:38:26.800 medically and scientifically to open our doors and not refuse our people from coming to worship.

00:38:32.840 I'd love to know what you were looking at as your sources to come to that conclusion, because

00:38:38.440 I was looking at all kinds of videos to come to that conclusion myself. I thought the data was

00:38:44.240 very clear that those who are most at risk for those over the age of 70 with pre-existing

00:38:48.720 conditions those under the age of 40 very small risk children um actually can withstand

00:38:54.960 covid better better than they can influenza there seemed to me to be a lot of information out there

00:38:59.920 to come to that conclusion but our politicians don't seem to be able to access it because they're

00:39:04.160 not coming to the same conclusion so what is it that you were that you were looking at that that

00:39:08.560 caused you to to sort of rethink what we were being told well i think on the one hand

00:39:14.240 all you have to do is look at these statistics that are on alberta health i mean the average

00:39:19.840 age of those who are dying is about 82 years old and and let's just be honest covet 19 is real um

00:39:27.520 it has obviously at least contributed to the loss of life among those who have have have died related

00:39:35.440 to covet 19 and i'm not talking about those who have died as a result of lockdown measures i mean

00:39:40.640 those who with comorbidities contracted the virus and and that it was either that they died from

00:39:46.000 their comorbidities or or from the virus itself whether it was with covid or from covid we know

00:39:51.360 that there are those who have died but the the actual number itself though though every death

00:39:56.560 is significant and though i wouldn't want to minimize the loss of life in any way shape or form

00:40:01.360 we do live in a fallen world and death is a reality and and it's always been a reality it

00:40:05.920 was a reality in 2019 and 2018 and every year prior to that and and so when you look at the

00:40:11.920 statistics in terms of number of cases against the total population of alberta the the the the

00:40:19.360 number of people that die and have died in light of the number of people who have supposedly

00:40:23.840 contracted the virus i think you just look at the stats that are on alberta health and

00:40:27.440 you realize that this is not nearly as severe as the government has made it out to be and um

00:40:33.440 And, you know, in my December 20th sermon, I went through some of these statistics and pointed out at that time that there were 841 COVID-related deaths.

00:40:46.720 And that was in 10 months.

00:40:49.140 And that's just not, you know, obviously every life matters, but statistically that's not significant enough to warrant fundamentally altering the way that we live.

00:40:59.440 and um and so you know with with with statistics like that you just come to realize that this is

00:41:06.320 overblown and then you go okay well so why is it then that they're doing this well it's because

00:41:10.140 they want to protect the health care system well even that is a huge if you know that the health

00:41:14.700 care system could or might be stressed and and so we're going to mortgage everything else we're

00:41:21.520 going to mortgage every other sphere of life just so we can hopefully avoid not stressing our our

00:41:29.060 health care system and I think even that's misguided that's not the right

00:41:33.080 approach to an emergency and yeah so let's then talk about how you brought

00:41:38.900 your parishioners along with you on that because by December 20th that you I

00:41:44.480 think you had already had quite a bit interaction with the with AHS and I I'm

00:41:48.380 wondering how you kind of introduced this to your parishioners that it really

00:41:52.060 was their choice whether they came in person or whether they decided to come

00:41:57.140 virtually aaron told us that you have a section of the of the church that's cordoned off in case

00:42:01.700 people want to sit behind plexiglass like you're you're trying to accommodate everybody's needs

00:42:07.780 but i'm wondering how that came through and in how you communicated that to to the people who

00:42:12.740 go to your church well on the in the first place i i was preaching i preached on romans 13 back in

00:42:21.140 um may or june i preached on another passage that's important in the discussion is on in

00:42:28.180 hebrews 10. um so there was some preaching that went into it there was internal messaging that

00:42:33.220 we were giving to our people as we answered questions and and and shared with them here's

00:42:38.420 our plan here's what we're doing then questions would come back to us we would write um answers

00:42:43.140 to those questions to make sure that we were helping people understand where we were coming

00:42:47.460 from with relate with regard to government uh the medicine the science all of these issues so we

00:42:52.900 just we just shepherded our people and and um informed them and equipped them and and left it

00:42:59.300 in their hands as capable intelligent adults to make their own decision and assess their own

00:43:05.860 risk level and and just over time as we gathered and this is really important for people to

00:43:10.820 understand we have met for nearly 40 sundays in a row and and we we i forget exactly what the

00:43:19.620 number is but we're we're somewhere 35 40 sundays and we haven't had a single covet case touch our

00:43:25.140 gathering our sunday gathering so so people over time you know initially you are a little bit

00:43:32.020 nervous and and you've just been bombarded by mainstream media who touts cases and deaths

00:43:38.740 all the time and and and so initially there might have been some reluctance but over time

00:43:44.420 our people are going okay it's okay it's safe you know we can gather can you talk can you can you

00:43:50.900 shed some light because i know that there are those you did have um some covid positive individuals

00:43:58.980 who had gone to a church service but if i'm under and that was last summer but if i'm

00:44:03.220 understanding it they tested positive but they didn't spread they didn't get it at the church

00:44:06.980 and they didn't spread it to anyone at the church is that correct yeah so there there are two sundays

00:44:11.940 where we had an individual who was at our gathering and then tested positive after the fact

00:44:18.100 and uh and so that suggests that they were at our gathering with with covet 19 with the infection

00:44:25.220 and and and there were tests that took place as a result of that we did our own internal contact

00:44:30.420 tracing there were people that went and got tested and we determined that there was no

00:44:34.980 transmission of the virus now at that time we we took out of an abundance of cost a caution we

00:44:41.220 shut down our services all ministries for two weeks and and just ensured that we weren't in

00:44:46.740 this perpetual spreading of the virus and and and once we had had had ensured that that was the case

00:44:52.660 we opened back up again and then carried on and i should say this i mean even now we have modified

00:44:59.700 the way that we're doing ministry you know the the hill that we believe we need to die on is sunday

00:45:05.540 but we have modified the way we're doing youth ministry women's ministry uh we're not we're

00:45:10.580 doing we're doing our bible studies now in our our facility so people can be you know socially

00:45:15.940 distanced and everything else so it's not like we're just blowing through every single stop sign

00:45:20.820 that's being raised it's just that we can't comply with sunday sunday is essential sun sunday is

00:45:26.580 critical it's critical to the the spiritual health and well-being of our of our people

00:45:31.780 and and so we we just can't we can't compromise on sundays now i know you gave an hour sermon on

00:45:39.220 this and so i'm going to see if you can compress your theology around the importance of meeting as

00:45:45.960 a corporate body i think is the term that you're using and and because i think people who uh may

00:45:53.160 not be church goers might not understand how you're interpreting scripture and why you feel

00:45:59.380 so strongly about this because i'll give you an example like i i have a restaurant with my husband

00:46:04.480 we see 300 people a week through the restaurant we're shopping at costco we're shopping at no

00:46:10.300 frills we're around literally hundreds of people in those environments but i still avoid crowds i

00:46:16.360 i don't go to to large social gatherings and so every one of us has our own little way of of

00:46:23.400 making our lives normal and every one of us has our own lines that we're prepared to stay behind

00:46:29.000 but for those who don't understand why this was such an important line for you

00:46:33.880 maybe you can tell us why why was sunday a hill to die on well i think the impression that people

00:46:39.080 have is that um a service is an incredibly passive endeavor that it's a a spectator sport and so

00:46:48.840 basically you can just divide your gathering up into as many services as possible and it's just

00:46:54.520 a matter of cycling people in and cycling them out it's like going to a hockey game and and you come

00:46:59.560 to the game and you watch the game and you leave and that's just not the corporate gathering that

00:47:03.800 the corporate gathering isn't even just the structured part of the service so it's it's not

00:47:08.920 even just what happens during the service itself that the gathering is is what takes place prior

00:47:14.520 to the service during the service and after the service and so there are elements of the service

00:47:19.960 that that certainly require a heavy workload on on me and other pastors as we preach the word

00:47:26.680 the music team as they lead us in song but there is a a fellowship component of one another ring

00:47:32.520 that also feeds into that and so when you look at the essential elements of a corporate gathering

00:47:38.280 the the preaching of the word the reading of scripture prayer fellowship the ordinances when

00:47:43.720 you look at the actual health orders that are in place they preclude us from being able to

00:47:48.680 carry out those essential elements we can't practice the one another's with masks on where

00:47:54.120 we can't see facial expression we can't practice the one another's well we stand six feet apart

00:47:59.640 with a mask on and we can't even hear the other person speak uh it's it's we the service is an

00:48:06.800 active one another ring it's relational it's not just come and go we're not that kind of a church

00:48:13.700 and i think that might touch on why other churches can comply because i think it's possible their

00:48:21.740 churches aren't functioning quite like a true church is supposed to and so people just come

00:48:27.540 and the sermon's over and the song is sun and boom the place is empty that's not the case with

00:48:33.280 our church our church is there for hours after the service talking to one another serving one

00:48:38.860 another loving one another and so we just have a true vibrant fellowship and there's no way that

00:48:47.360 we can comply with the health orders and um and fulfill those aspects and so you have to ask the

00:48:53.280 next question. Okay, well, is COVID-19 severe enough to warrant us fundamentally altering

00:48:59.320 everything? I mean, if we do things the way that we've always done them, are people going to die?

00:49:04.760 And the answer that we've proven is no. The only person that has died at Grace Life Church is a

00:49:10.420 gentleman who died because he couldn't get the health care he needed. He died sooner than he

00:49:15.580 would have because he could not get the radiation treatment he needed for cancer. And so that's not

00:49:21.020 say that we won't have covid deaths it's not to say that we won't lose a life to covid um we're

00:49:26.860 not immune from the virus but but it's a risk that we're willing to assume just like we're

00:49:32.460 we're willing to get into our car and drive and there are risks associated with that i i was told

00:49:37.660 at one point in time you are more likely to die from a gunshot in calgary than you are to die

00:49:43.580 from covet 19. there are risks in life and and and you have to decide whether or not you're willing

00:49:49.980 to assume those risks and we are adults and need to make those calls on our own we don't need the

00:49:55.580 government to dictate to us how to make real life adult decisions can you talk about singing i think

00:50:02.380 when you're talking about how your church conducts itself i remember having a lovely old dear who

00:50:07.180 came in she was so excited to be going back to church but at their church they hummed that was

00:50:12.940 the way that they stayed within dina hinshaw's health orders and i know that you feel very

00:50:18.060 strongly about singing as part of the worship service on Sunday. Can you explain why?

00:50:24.860 Well, because it's in the Scriptures. I mean, we're to be filled with the Spirit. The evidence

00:50:28.940 that we're filled with the Spirit is that we sing, admonishing one another, teaching one another

00:50:34.060 with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. It's almost a command, if it's not exegetically a

00:50:40.700 command, that singing is the byproduct of being filled with the Spirit. God is worthy of worship.

00:50:47.100 singing is is is the way that we express praise to god i just think it is unbelievable that the

00:50:54.460 government would have the audacity to tell christians who worship the lord jesus christ

00:51:00.860 that they can't sing unbelievable so tell me what your service would what do you think it is that

00:51:08.380 ahs wants you to do so i need to understand when you came on their radar because the impression

00:51:15.340 they've given the public through the various speeches that they've given or the press

00:51:18.380 conferences and statements they've given is that they tried and tried and tried and tried and tried

00:51:22.380 and tried kept working with you kept trying to get you into compliance and it just didn't work

00:51:25.980 what is it that they wanted you to do well they just want us to comply i mean i don't know that

00:51:31.900 um there was a lot of working with us i i they came in told us what we're supposed to be doing

00:51:37.900 we're saying yeah we can't do that and we're at a bit of a stalemate i don't there hasn't been any

00:51:43.500 kind of a uh a discussion i mean we're not willing to get together with ahs and have a negotiation

00:51:49.500 and and sort of come to a mutual agreement about what it is that we can do and can't do that's not

00:51:54.300 their place we we would be um entering into what i would call pastoral malpractice to go to ahs and

00:52:01.820 begin to negotiate with them the terms of worship only jesus gets to dictate the terms of worship

00:52:08.140 and so um so yeah have they worked with us i wouldn't say it was working with us i mean they

00:52:14.460 they they are intensely legalistic with their with their health orders and they want us to comply

00:52:19.500 with those health orders and and we can't do that and be faithful to christ and so that has us where

00:52:24.140 we are today so let me just help help me understand where we're at with the current health orders

00:52:30.220 because they keep changing and i know that retail is now i think gone up to 25 capacity that they're

00:52:35.820 allowed did you follow suit i mean under the health orders are you allowed to have 25 capacity

00:52:41.420 is it only 15 is that one of the things they would expect of you well i gotta be honest and

00:52:46.300 and i i i just want to be honest like i don't pay a ton of attention to the health orders

00:52:50.860 you know if if we're i think we're at 15 right now and and if we went up to 50 it would make

00:52:56.220 no difference like we're gonna do what we believe we're called to do so whether it's 15 or zero

00:53:03.020 percent or 75 it really makes no difference to us uh the the the terms of worship the essential

00:53:10.380 elements of the gathering are non-negotiable for us and so to me you know it's interesting to listen

00:53:16.220 to uh what they what they provide in their updates and what changes they make but at the end of the

00:53:21.260 day it doesn't shape what we do or why we do it so um how big is your congregation how many people

00:53:27.660 can you seat in your capacity that's a great question i think we're trying to figure that out

00:53:32.540 uh prior to um my imprisonment we were trying to tamp down the the number of visitors that were

00:53:41.500 coming to our church we didn't want all of edmonton coming to grace life church we couldn't

00:53:45.820 accommodate that and so we were we were prioritizing uh our own congregation and trying to limit the

00:53:52.860 number of members uh visitors rather that were coming to our church and then when i ended up

00:53:57.100 imprisoned uh you know that kind of went out the window and and all of edmonton was all of a sudden

00:54:02.220 at our church again or for the first time so you know our our i don't even know exactly what our

00:54:07.420 fire capacity is um it's six something and uh and and and we're having on sundays right now we're

00:54:15.100 having to turn people away because we're reaching that now at that point someone's going to say well

00:54:20.220 so james why are you complying with the the uh the fire code and and not with the health orders well

00:54:26.860 there's a fundamental difference the the the fire code is a civil issue it's not it's not infringing

00:54:33.260 on the terms of worship it's a it's a civil matter that that governs the safety of of a of a facility

00:54:41.580 with respect to fire and so it's it's not it's not infringing on the headship and lordship of

00:54:47.660 christ over his church and and so that's that's why that's different it's not the same thing

00:54:53.580 so let me tell you what your critics would say they would say

00:54:57.580 that the the gatherings in and of themselves

00:55:01.260 create a risk especially to the vulnerable

00:55:04.620 in your in your congregation and would that not be

00:55:08.060 equivalent to abiding by the fire code you want to abide by the

00:55:11.820 some of those same health orders while we're in the middle of what they're

00:55:14.700 describing as a crisis well so um if we're a person or two over

00:55:20.780 the fire code i'm sure you know the safety factor isn't that significant but but that aside um we've

00:55:27.580 been meeting for nearly 40 sundays and and it's it's evident apparent that no one's at risk and

00:55:35.580 and and if they are at risk that's a risk that they are willing to take why why am i on the hook

00:55:41.580 for the decision of someone else who's willing to be at our church i mean that's that's a whole

00:55:47.340 thing in and of itself there are people who are informed and intelligent and bright and they want

00:55:53.460 to be at church why am i responsible to tell them not to and furthermore how can i as their pastor

00:55:59.160 do that how can i tell them that they're not permitted to worship i can't do that um let me

00:56:05.840 ask you do you mind if i ask you to sort of elaborate on that a bit because i think there's

00:56:10.260 an expectation that um you you would talk to your more senior congregants and you would know their

00:56:17.700 health status probably because of various interactions that you have with them and and

00:56:21.720 you might want to give them the advice maybe you should stay home until this is all over

00:56:25.640 do you not see that as part of your role well i think what i would do is is work with them and so

00:56:31.820 there were there were situations where we would have um individuals who who could have comorbidities

00:56:38.200 And they would say that they're not feeling totally comfortable or whatever the case is.

00:56:43.260 I remember one woman, she came and was coming and I was a bit surprised that she was there and was certainly concerned for her and her well-being.

00:56:52.380 And so I would interact with her and just let her know that I totally understand if she would prefer to live stream.

00:57:00.060 And so we love our people that way.

00:57:01.500 We don't force them to be there.

00:57:03.480 And so I might give my suggestion that, hey, why don't you stay back for a little bit right now? I don't necessarily recall doing that because I don't recall the conversations developing that way. But I've always been very sensitive to folks that want to be at home and live stream.

00:57:20.040 And so I'm not compelling people to come. I'm just opening my doors and letting them decide. And even back to the original question about safety, I think that question is entirely assuming the narrative that's being spun by the mainstream media and our government, that people are actually unsafe, that COVID-19 is this legitimate threat.

00:57:47.980 i would say unequivocally the lockdown measures are the greatest threat to alberta albertans

00:57:53.980 it's it's not the virus it's the cure that is the problem um and so i just think the the entire

00:58:01.980 premise of the question is is rooted in the echo chamber of the mainstream media and the government

00:58:08.380 and and and that people look i don't feel safe in this society i don't feel safe when i go into

00:58:16.300 costco and everyone's wearing a mask i don't feel safe knowing that everyone is staying at home

00:58:22.700 right now i feel safer when someone takes their mask their mask off and speaks to me face to face

00:58:28.460 when i'm at a restaurant and the server has a mask on his face i don't feel safe i want to see him

00:58:34.940 smile i want to interact with him and engage with him uh or her like i i i don't feel safe in this

00:58:42.300 society right now and and so those that that don't feel safe are those who have just basically taken

00:58:50.060 the the narrative of the mainstream media and have drunk the kool-aid and and i can i can say that

00:58:56.380 because i'm a pastor of a church it's been meeting for nearly 40 weeks and it's safe we're happy

00:59:03.820 we're healthy and and so we're showing we're showing albertans that that they don't need to

00:59:11.020 be afraid now i'm not saying throw caution to the wind i'm not saying don't be responsible i'm just

00:59:17.260 saying that that we can meet and and and and and that the the the the alberta that's being created

00:59:27.500 right now is far more unsafe than anything covet 19 has brought upon us you know it's interesting

00:59:33.100 even as i asked you the question i'm sort of thinking through i had a 98 year old customer

00:59:37.820 who was there with his you know 75 year old son and to even think that i would presume to tell

00:59:44.460 them do you think it's safe for you to be out here i mean i think there's sort of this expectation

00:59:48.540 that you would take that role but no one's asking the retail clerk at costco or the restaurant

00:59:53.180 server to have that same kind of paternalistic attitude towards uh towards the people who come

00:59:58.380 to to receive service there what um what do you think the attitude is of of your parishioners

01:00:03.740 Like, did you see over time that they became more and more comfortable wanting to attend service face to face?

01:00:11.320 Because I don't know that that's happening everywhere, because it does seem like the majority, maybe virtually all churches.

01:00:17.880 I don't know if any other churches in the crosshairs the way you are, but it seems like virtually every other church is operating within those rules.

01:00:24.680 And maybe that's an indication of the comfort level of the congregation being low.

01:00:28.660 Why is your congregation so keen to meet?

01:00:31.900 Well, let's be clear.

01:00:32.980 There are other churches in this province that are open and are doing things just as we are.

01:00:37.660 We are not the only ones.

01:00:38.860 And that's another bit of misinformation coming from our government that all the other churches in the province are complying with the health orders.

01:00:49.220 No, that's not the case.

01:00:50.260 Whether it's in Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, Le Crete, Grand Prairie, here in Edmonton, Calgary, there are churches that are open all over the place.

01:00:59.400 And so just to address that, and I probably forgot your question.

01:01:02.840 What was your question again?

01:01:03.440 I was just wondering if you noticed that over time your congregants were feeling more comfortable coming out.

01:01:09.120 Yeah, I think over time, absolutely.

01:01:11.480 I think everyone's wrestling with, you know, what's our response to government in this context?

01:01:17.560 You know, what is the severity level of the virus itself?

01:01:21.200 It's taken time for folks to dot the I's and cross the T's.

01:01:24.560 And as we've continued to meet over time, there's no question that that our gathering has has increased.

01:01:32.660 Even the sermon that I preached on December 20th, that that helped people solidify the theological side of things.

01:01:41.480 And and so our people began to start to come back even more so following that sermon.

01:01:46.700 So it's been it's been over time. It's been teaching. It's been preaching.

01:01:50.800 it's it's just been the the time that's passed with respect to COVID-19 to be able to see it's

01:01:56.740 it's um it's it's true severity level and so yeah over time uh our people have become more and more

01:02:04.040 comfortable for sure do you know what I find so ironic is the the physical meeting is so important

01:02:09.300 to you as the pastor but I bet you have more people now watching you online than you do coming

01:02:14.200 to church isn't that a funny irony yeah it is and and um you know i'm sure a lot of them wish they

01:02:21.380 could be with us in person um uh but yeah i mean it is there's no question the our church has gotten

01:02:28.320 more visibility as a result of this and and that's not been the goal that's not been the aim i'm quite

01:02:33.560 happy to just lead a tranquil and quiet life to care for my flock to fly under the radar um to

01:02:40.640 to love our people and minister the word of God to them. I'm not relishing the, the attention that

01:02:47.000 we're getting. I don't, I don't love this new normal that I'm, I'm entering into. Um, but at

01:02:53.480 the end of the day, we have to be faithful to our Lord and, and he's given us this, this spotlight

01:02:59.560 and all we can do is be faithful. I want to ask you, I, I'm putting you in a bit of a tough

01:03:05.160 position asking this question but there are other pastors that are sort of putting pressure on on

01:03:12.600 on you to sort of toe the line either directly or in public with their statements there are other

01:03:17.640 pastors who say we can make this work and there are other pastors who are doing multiple different

01:03:22.920 services or doing online and i'm i'm trying to to i i know i mean it's sort of it sort of begs

01:03:31.080 the question, if they have found a way to look at Scripture and interpret the way they have,

01:03:37.220 so that they can come to terms with doing their work within the context of the health orders,

01:03:43.900 why can't you? Well, I think, you know, at the end of the day, they're responsible before the Lord.

01:03:51.780 They're going to give an account for their handling of Scripture, their shepherd of the flock.

01:03:57.120 You know, the Bible talks about what they call the Bema Seat of Christ, the judgment seat of Christ.

01:04:02.780 So I am going to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and give him an account for my shepherd care of the flock at Grace Life.

01:04:09.460 When I do that, I'm going to be standing alone. There isn't going to be anybody with me.

01:04:14.420 I'm not going to be able to there's not going to be anyone sharing their opinion at that point in time.

01:04:19.500 There's going to be one judge and one assessment. And I need to live my life with that judgment seat in view.

01:04:25.960 it's it's an assessment and an evaluation of my life and faithfulness and i want to go into that

01:04:31.620 moment with a clear conscience i want to go into that moment believing that i have done what i was

01:04:37.000 called to do and and so they're going to do that and and they need to live their lives with that

01:04:42.400 moment in view and and and they need to go into that moment with a clear conscience and if they

01:04:46.960 can do that doing whatever they're doing that's their that's that's their prerogative i'm not i'm

01:04:51.760 not the judge. But all I can do is be responsible for what I'm doing, be faithful to Christ in

01:04:58.360 accordance with his word. And I'm going to study his word and seek to be careful with his word and

01:05:03.580 its application to our church and body life. And I'm not doing that alone. I'm doing that in the

01:05:09.540 context of a plurality of elders. We're a leadership team. It's not just all on me. I'm

01:05:14.960 not a shock caller. I'm not leading this church on my own. There's at least eight of us that are

01:05:20.940 involved in leadership at this point in time and so um so yeah i you know what like i i don't mind

01:05:27.780 if people disagree with me i'm not i'm not concerned about their um about their opinion

01:05:34.840 on what i'm doing i i i care about the lord jesus christ and what he has to say can you elaborate

01:05:40.700 i don't know if you can tell a story about what is so different about having that face-to-face

01:05:46.920 communication and fellowship that you can't get online or virtually. I suppose my only real

01:05:53.900 context is, as I've described to you, the business that I run, and I also have a cohort of 10 people

01:05:58.720 that are very precious to me, but what is it that is so important to you about the fellowship that

01:06:04.880 you just can't get by calling people on the phone or doing FaceTime with them or just having

01:06:10.460 the the virtual experience well you know what a a helpful way to kind of illustrate that is

01:06:17.360 I was just in jail for five weeks and I was apart from my family for five weeks for from my church

01:06:23.940 for five weeks um I could call my wife on the phone I could speak to my children uh but I

01:06:30.560 couldn't be with them and I think that alone should should should illustrate the difference

01:06:36.280 um i shouldn't even need to say anything more you don't that that seals the deal um yeah so being

01:06:43.740 with uh family friends um communicating spending time together loving one another

01:06:50.540 hugging one another seeing one another um that that that can't be um virtual does not replicate

01:07:00.120 that and uh obviously we we're thankful for technology you and i are doing this right now

01:07:06.120 it might be better to do it in person um but uh but at the end of the day uh virtual and then

01:07:13.540 furthermore from a theological point of view um when it comes to the the the essential elements

01:07:19.660 of the gathering um you can't you can't fellowship and do the one another is virtually not not to the

01:07:25.860 same extent that you would if you're gathering together in person. And anyway, more could be

01:07:33.800 said on that, but I think it's self-evident. Oh, I think you illustrate it well. The other

01:07:38.800 sermon I want you to talk about is February the 14th, because I'm a libertarian. I tend to think

01:07:44.900 that the government that governs best governs least. I don't want government involved in my

01:07:51.700 life but it's interesting because uh when the premier was sort of defending the stance of his

01:07:57.620 government in putting you behind bars he talked about a libertarian speech that you had given

01:08:02.900 and i thought okay i better listen to this and then when i listened to it i thought no this is a

01:08:07.540 real law and order type of speech like you're you're not some kind of anarchist you actually

01:08:14.100 believe in law and order and that even law and order has a scriptural basis and so i wonder if

01:08:19.460 you could just walk us through some of that some of that uh uh discussion so that we understand

01:08:24.880 where the line is drawn where is it that uh you give unto to caesar and give to caesar unto caesar

01:08:32.320 but then there's a point where no sorry caesar you're not welcome here can you can you illustrate

01:08:37.140 that a little bit for us yeah so back in the garden before the fall god commissioned adam and

01:08:44.080 to and and and and therefore all of mankind to exercise dominion over the earth to subdue the

01:08:52.420 earth and um and that would require procreation having families it would require killing the soil

01:09:00.080 uh utilizing everything in the earth to uh to build and and develop all of our technology

01:09:07.000 develops out of that. And so God has given to mankind the responsibility to exercise dominion

01:09:15.160 over the earth. And for mankind to effectively do that, especially now in a fallen world,

01:09:19.120 since Adam and Eve fell into sin, we need government to ensure that that takes place.

01:09:24.200 And the government's fundamental role at that point in time is to ensure that the inalienable

01:09:29.340 rights that are given to us by God to complete our kingdom mandate on the earth, that they protect

01:09:35.260 those rights, the rights to work. I mean, that's an amazing thing. God has given to mankind the

01:09:43.580 right to work. It is a God-given right that he has given to mankind. And the government right

01:09:50.240 now is actually stepping in and saying like, nope, you can't work right now. And not only are

01:09:56.320 you not allowed to work right now, we're going to give you a check. So we're going to print some

01:10:01.680 money and we're going to give you a check so that we offset whatever your losses from not working

01:10:07.120 um that's the government getting into a lane that is not theirs their responsibility is to

01:10:14.200 protect our right to life to protect our right to work to protect our right to worship

01:10:19.040 and uh and so i think that's the issue right now the government is is is stepping out of its lane

01:10:26.860 and and and is trying to balance our civil liberties with with the harms of the lockdowns

01:10:33.140 and and that's just not their responsibility there the government is not supposed to I don't

01:10:38.780 need the government to keep me from a virus I just don't need them to do that I don't want the

01:10:42.960 government to protect me from a virus I mean they can certainly give me information and and and and

01:10:49.460 help me and equip me with whatever they think I need to know so that I can be responsible and

01:10:54.820 intelligent but it's not their responsibility to protect me from a virus so fundamentally we have

01:11:02.660 rights the government is to recognize right now the government is infringing on those liberties

01:11:07.540 and therefore they're not doing their job their job is to protect them and and as a result we are

01:11:14.660 seeing a great harm to human flourishing in our province i wonder if you have a stronger case

01:11:23.780 because you're a church and because religious freedom in particular is articulated in the

01:11:29.060 charter of rights and freedoms i i just watched sadly somebody somebody posted that outlaws

01:11:34.340 has thrown in the towel they were one of the the first businesses in calgary to try to fight the

01:11:39.460 unfair health orders and so but they had ahs pull their their food permit and aglc pull their liquor

01:11:47.060 permit and they had their business license pulled and they just said it was too much administrative

01:11:52.740 hassle too many fronts that they had to fight i wonder if do you feel like you might have a

01:11:58.900 stronger case because we're talking about religious freedom well this is going to be

01:12:05.800 kind of a long-winded response um i want to be very clear that that when it comes to what we're

01:12:11.120 doing as a local church we are simply doing what we're doing in obedience to christ as we seek to

01:12:16.580 be faithful as his people i'm seeking to be faithful as a pastor and a shepherd and so the

01:12:22.040 pillar upon which everything is happening in our lives right now as a church and myself as a pastor

01:12:27.440 is my desire to obey Christ now what happens is this when you when you build that pillar you need

01:12:34.360 to stand up on it and start looking at okay well what about government what about what about

01:12:39.060 neighbor and and is obedience to Christ as it relates to our corporate life as a church is

01:12:46.820 that consistent with loving my neighbor and and loving the government and you

01:12:50.480 realize it is it absolutely these are not at odds with each other and and so

01:12:56.180 so it's on this this pillar of obedience to Christ that I come to realize that

01:13:01.220 I'm loving my neighbor in this regard now stepping into that that that on top

01:13:07.060 of that pillar you start to look at the legal side of it and in in a in accord

01:13:11.060 the charter churches do have rights that that businesses don't and so um there's no question

01:13:19.220 that we have protections under the charter that that businesses don't have and and that in love

01:13:26.580 for neighbor also gives us the impetus to take this stand because you know i remember hearing

01:13:33.620 of a gentleman speaking to one of my lawyers and and and and my lawyer telling him you know

01:13:40.360 at the end of the day businesses don't have the protections that churches have and and so you

01:13:46.780 just don't have the same protections in the charter and and he said well what's the church doing and

01:13:52.540 at that time the answer was effectively nothing and so local churches are have these these rights

01:14:00.620 are built into our charter and they're not utilizing them in in the in the name of obedience

01:14:06.140 to government and in the name of loving neighboring community meanwhile we've got folks like you just

01:14:12.780 mentioned whose businesses are coming to an end because they've been so crippled by the lockdown

01:14:17.660 measures that their whole livelihoods are gone and and so you tell me what it means to love your

01:14:23.340 neighbor at that particular point what what true love is and let me just say this you know right

01:14:28.540 now the narrative is that this is our world war ii that that covet 19 is our generation's world war

01:14:36.620 ii and and and what it looks like to go to war with coven 19 is to go home to go home be by yourself

01:14:44.860 and isolate from everyone around you that is the sacrifice that that that is going to win this war

01:14:52.940 against uh our world war ii now stop for a moment to think about world war ii why did

01:14:59.340 our forefathers go to to the to the battlefield to fight they went to fight and lay down their

01:15:05.420 lives for our freedoms now was it safe for them to go to a foreign land and and die was it healthy

01:15:14.700 for them to go to a foreign land and die it just it shocks me that somehow we have totally turned

01:15:21.500 this on its head so that that sacrifice is going home and isolating and that what we're doing

01:15:29.180 in being faithful to christ and also faithful to to our neighbor by by meeting and exercising our

01:15:36.060 civil liberties that that were the ones that are selfish and self-centered i think that is that is

01:15:41.580 entirely backwards and so there's a real sense in which if this is our our world war ii the right

01:15:49.100 response is not to go home the right response is to to exercise your civil liberties and and

01:15:56.380 obviously churches have a huge part to play in that because we have so many protections under

01:16:00.940 the charter you've probably seen uh i don't know maybe you've tuned out social media the same way

01:16:06.860 i have because it can be so hostile and ignorant but i i've seen people take the exact opposite of

01:16:14.460 you a view of of you and um just the rotten things that uh aaron said um kids are saying to your kids

01:16:23.660 this idea that you're you're somehow harming society let's talk about it on a couple levels

01:16:28.860 first are you surprised at how quickly people laid down liberty and how quickly they fell into

01:16:35.900 alignment with government and how how passive they've become because i'm shocked by it personally

01:16:41.500 and I didn't expect that we would see a 180 degree turn on embracing authoritarianism and

01:16:49.820 these kinds of aggressive government actions in such a short period of time. How are you perceiving

01:16:55.420 it? Why do you think that's happened? You know, that's a great question. I think

01:16:59.740 we've just become more and more dependent on the government and the government has gotten bigger

01:17:04.220 and bigger. I think a lot of people see the government as this benevolent friend that is

01:17:10.220 out for their best interests and lack a healthy distrust for government um i'm certainly surprised

01:17:17.900 at the way alberta's responded uh i'm shocked that uh i mean this is sort of the texas of canada

01:17:23.900 right i'm shocked that that we have rolled over the way that we have and um i think you know

01:17:30.940 there's obviously a an authoritarian totalitarian push coming from the left wing i i i'm coming to

01:17:39.420 call it left-wing supremacy you have to be a left-wing thinker or you're a moron you have to

01:17:46.640 be a left-wing thinker or you're a white supremacist you have to be a left-wing thinker or you're a

01:17:52.320 racist i mean so and then you know the big part is too is is it's the minority that's so loud

01:17:58.060 there's a silent majority here in alberta and maybe they're waking up because of you know folks

01:18:03.820 like us and what we're doing. But we need Albertans to stand up and simply peacefully

01:18:10.520 and humbly and graciously practice their civil liberties. I saw a gentleman go into a supermarket

01:18:19.100 without a mask and create this whole thing where he gets arrested. That's not what I'm talking

01:18:23.720 about. I'm not talking about being a jerk. I'm talking about being a good law-abiding citizen

01:18:30.360 and returning to your civil liberties and doing those things that are freely given to you by God

01:18:37.540 to do and allowing our government to realize that we're not persuaded by this narrative.

01:18:44.400 We're not drinking the Kool-Aid on the severity of this virus. This not only seems to me to be

01:18:50.140 a clear government overreach, it is an effort to increase government dependence and ultimately

01:18:56.720 cripple uh the people to make us so financially dependent on the government that they they have

01:19:02.760 all the power in the world to continue to do what they want to do and that's not an alberta that i

01:19:07.100 want to be a part of i'm at a point now where i would have a very difficult time standing for

01:19:12.860 our national anthem i'm not talking about going down on one knee i'm talking about not being able

01:19:17.820 to to sing the true north strong and free this nation is not free and and and we sing in that

01:19:24.560 song um you know god keep our land glorious and free it is not glorious and free that that is a

01:19:30.740 prayer that is being prayed in vain and uh and i i just i'm i'm appalled at the the country that

01:19:37.580 has become and and i would just say this as relates to premier kenny who i voted for by the way that

01:19:43.920 he's not the man that we voted for he's not the conservative man that we asked for that we voted

01:19:49.340 for that he claimed he was and and i don't think the ucp party is going to survive with jason kenny

01:19:55.820 i think i think jason kenny is finished i think i think he either needs to repent and and step

01:20:03.100 in line and be the man that he presented himself to be or or the ucp party needs a new leader

01:20:09.740 because uh i just do not think albertans who voted for him are going to be willing to vote for him

01:20:15.260 again the next time around and uh and we do not want an ndp government well you're now sounding

01:20:22.060 a lot more like a libertarian i have to wonder were you as attuned to these political issues a

01:20:28.060 year ago or i mean i think aaron when i spoke with her she just said you know i had to really

01:20:32.780 she said this that she had to educate herself about what the charter was and she felt like

01:20:37.260 perhaps she could have done more um in the past now she's sort of fully awoken to what our rights

01:20:43.580 are and the threat to go from government that i don't know that she'll ever see the world the same

01:20:48.460 way how what would you have been like a year ago before going through this experience well i think

01:20:54.700 for for quite some time now i would say this when i came out of seminary and got into ministry

01:21:01.020 initially i was like just entirely focused on the word of god and ministering the word of god and

01:21:06.860 and that was my my my focus and i would have uh faithful men come alongside me and say james you've

01:21:12.620 got to be committed to the scriptures and i am that will never change but you need to be able

01:21:17.500 to understand what's happening in the world around you in the culture around you and so um

01:21:22.940 providentially i began to look at economics and and and indulge in that quite a bit and that was

01:21:28.060 a bit of a hobby for me and so i i began to understand how our banking system works and and

01:21:32.860 how our monetary theory is and and all that um and then over time i began to take an interest

01:21:38.060 in american politics and and began to to be plugged in and dialed in on that and so i've

01:21:43.500 been able to see what's happening in the u.s and and and in that country politically and so i think

01:21:49.320 for sure over the last seven years or so i've become more um robustly dialed in on what's

01:21:56.540 happening politically and i think that's contributed to to this time i've been i've been

01:22:01.940 um dialed in this entire time as well to be able to see what's happening and uh and so i think it's

01:22:08.120 just naturally through interest and and and invested time that i've i've i've begun to be

01:22:14.600 able to round things out a little bit that that now at 41 years old i'd be able to uh think

01:22:20.120 intelligently about what's happening um on a national level a political level okay i have a

01:22:26.240 people saying um pastor james for premier so are when you talk about a replacement of political

01:22:33.040 leadership would would you do that would you ever put yourself in a position to run for political

01:22:37.520 leadership or political office uh i'd have to say absolutely not um i have a very clear calling i am

01:22:45.520 completely committed to that calling um there's no question that politics interests me you know

01:22:52.000 I do sometimes have thoughts of, you know, if I wasn't a pastor in ministry, which is a huge if, because I am, you know, what would I do?

01:23:01.660 And politics is one of those things that does interest me.

01:23:04.360 But there's no temptation for me to get involved in politics on that level.

01:23:09.720 I'm committed to the work that I do as a pastor.

01:23:13.040 Well, now, one other thing that Aaron said is that if the premier repented, she'd forgive.

01:23:19.460 and what what would he have to do to win your support back well let me just be honest i mean

01:23:26.520 i i don't have unforgiveness toward premier kenny i mean i i i love i love the man i i love

01:23:32.480 i love all people i i i don't have unforgiveness toward the rcmp um being a hinshaw um so so i'm

01:23:41.820 not i'm not harboring unforgiveness as it relates to premier kenny winning uh my affections

01:23:48.080 politically to be able to warrant me voting for him again uh he would just have to come clean on

01:23:54.520 on what he's done now i'm not anticipating he's going to do that i think you know the cost of

01:24:01.120 him doing that at this point in time is uh massive i i i'm so i you know what like i don't know how

01:24:08.520 he sleeps at night i don't know how dean hinshaw sleeps at night the corner that they've painted

01:24:12.440 themselves into at this point in time the only thing they can do is keep the narrative going

01:24:16.940 uh to come out and say like oops you know what we messed up um that that how could they do that

01:24:23.840 i mean now for me i could go yeah you messed up and and you know we forgive you and thank you for

01:24:31.340 coming clean on that but i'm not most people so you know if if they came clean at that level

01:24:37.400 it would have a huge hugely negative impact i mean we're talking about the stakes are so high

01:24:44.020 livelihoods uh people are committing suicide people are um dying of drug overdoses and

01:24:52.080 addictions like this is massive you know um it's uh it's it's deeply concerning and and so i'll

01:25:00.280 just i'll just at that point in time sympathize with the responsibility that premier kenny has

01:25:05.480 he has a massive responsibility and uh so yeah i mean he just he'd have to be the man we thought

01:25:13.620 was and and i think if he was that man we we'd know it by now and and because he's not that man

01:25:19.540 i i don't think i could vote for him it's it's so frustrating because we're looking at the united

01:25:24.900 states and as you've pointed out we're very heavily influenced by american politics but i've

01:25:29.940 been watching the reopening map that the new york times does and there are now 15 jurisdictions in

01:25:37.060 the u.s where businesses are all all open or mostly open no mask mandates and it sort of perplexes me

01:25:44.980 why we have this barrier here we don't even have one jurisdiction in canada that's prepared to go

01:25:50.100 that route where they are looking at the science bringing forward alternative evidence and we're

01:25:56.340 seeing that even in those jurisdictions where they've released restrictions and barely had any

01:26:00.820 the virus follows the same path as it does anywhere else it just it just strikes me as strange

01:26:06.500 that we haven't seen even one premier break ranks from from this kind of top-down authoritarian

01:26:13.620 type of approach and i i wonder what what you think it's going to take maybe maybe it's not

01:26:18.260 going to be premier kenny i always thought it would be premier kenny first because as you

01:26:21.780 mentioned we're kind of the texas of the north maybe scott moe maybe it's blaine hicks maybe

01:26:26.260 it's somebody else is there is there some other effort that that those of us who want to see a

01:26:30.980 breakthrough that we should be focusing our efforts on if you were to to give some advice

01:26:35.220 about what what we should be doing i think people would value that yeah i mean all i can all i can

01:26:42.100 encourage folks to do is to um is to return to life as normal um you know i'm not a conspiracy

01:26:51.940 theorist and so it's it's difficult to kind of venture into you know prognosticating on what's

01:26:59.140 happening in our country and and globally and everything else but i think it's evident that

01:27:05.860 our prime minister has um a more communistic leaning and so i think he he wants to

01:27:14.100 uh fundamentally alter the way that our country is currently um structured and uh so i think

01:27:22.100 somehow there's a top-down effort to have everyone walk in lockstep just think if if premier kenny

01:27:28.260 was the one province that wasn't locking down and and and just think if in not locking down

01:27:36.060 his numbers were were on a par or or better than the rest of the country that that would make it

01:27:42.020 very difficult to keep the narrative going across the country if Alberta is showing that the

01:27:47.120 lockdowns are unnecessary and so you know to you've got to get a country all kind of singing

01:27:52.360 off the same song sheet the U.S. is different it's a republic so each state has a certain

01:27:57.320 amount of sovereignty and autonomy and so it's more difficult to usher in the kind of government

01:28:03.160 control that the democrats in the u.s want to usher in um so so there just seems to be a push

01:28:11.020 toward globalism in the world which is uh fundamentally an increase in government the

01:28:16.160 size of government and that comes with that government control and and that seems to be

01:28:21.440 what's happening here in canada and uh it's it's sad i just agree i had just hoped that

01:28:26.600 Alberta would be the exception now here we are the we were having this step to

01:28:31.820 reopening so it was at least a breakthrough we got below the benchmark

01:28:37.460 for 300 cases in hospital because that was supposed to be the benchmark to move

01:28:41.820 to step three well now we're back above 300 hospitalizations and I I guess I'm

01:28:47.480 feeling a lot of nervousness I think I'm sensing that in the people who are

01:28:52.160 emailing me that we're just going to see another clamp down again and so if they end up reversing

01:28:58.560 course and going to greater restrictions like do you feel like you're going to be in the in the

01:29:04.400 crosshairs once again of all that i mean i it does strike me that there are a few people who

01:29:09.600 are likely to get the the worst of it and you've made um sort of a public stand you're asking

01:29:15.520 people to make a public stand are what do you what do you think is going to happen in the next week

01:29:19.920 or so well i think i'm already in the crosshairs on um coming ahs enforcement i i think uh it's

01:29:28.880 possible ahs is already um putting together a plan to bring further enforcement against me

01:29:35.600 and uh and i'm sure that this time here on your program is not going to help that so um i i don't

01:29:42.960 know what the ultimate outcome is um obviously the the government to be consistent as cases rise and

01:29:51.520 hospitalizations rise they they have to clamp down that's the that's the that's the playbook so um if

01:29:58.320 they didn't they would be being inconsistent with the way they've handled things to this point in

01:30:02.800 time and uh it's uh it's a shame but um i uh the the the variant of concern now is is what's being

01:30:12.800 leveraged you know we wrote in our our public statement um you know if this pandemic is ever

01:30:19.040 permitted to be over um implying that it may never be permitted to be over uh you know that's just

01:30:25.520 playing out we wrote that back in in in when um december january and here we are looking at wave

01:30:33.840 three and then there'll be wave four and then wave five and then there'll be another virus that comes

01:30:39.340 along until you know we're so crippled that they don't need a virus anymore to to to exercise the

01:30:46.740 kind of control over us they want to exercise and then it'll be too far gone at that point anyway so

01:30:52.140 I just, I don't have any hope that COVID-19 is going away. I don't have any hope that this

01:30:59.280 pandemic is going to end. And that's part of it, going back to the obedience to Christ piece

01:31:05.140 to pastors, for example, how long do you comply? When is your limit? When is your threshold? What

01:31:12.100 do you need? What information do you need to, like, how long are you to go for? And that was

01:31:18.240 huge question for us now had we complied back in june think about how long we'd be complying for

01:31:24.080 and oh just a little bit longer and oh just a little bit longer and it's just christmas

01:31:28.640 next year will be fine i mean i i just have no no hope that this is ever going to end i i don't

01:31:35.040 think the vaccine is going to be the silver bullet they they've already given mixed messaging

01:31:39.680 premier kenny says when the vaccine comes we'll have freedom the i think the chief medical officer

01:31:46.000 of Canada has said that even once the vaccine comes, we'll still have to be committed to the

01:31:51.300 real defense against the virus, social distancing, masks, et cetera, et cetera. So I think they want

01:31:58.180 to do away with mass gatherings. I wonder how they're going to navigate that with professional

01:32:05.360 sports. I mean, that's unlivable. There's no way they're going to be able to keep the NHL

01:32:11.160 and the NBA from having all of their fans.

01:32:14.300 So how are they going to navigate that?

01:32:15.880 How are they going to have a full stadium at a Blue Jay game

01:32:19.280 and then not allow churches to gather?

01:32:22.220 It's going to be very interesting how they do that.

01:32:25.000 But, yeah, I just have no hope this thing's ever going to come to an end.

01:32:29.220 So let's talk about what this weekend looks like because they –

01:32:33.120 I couldn't believe it.

01:32:34.040 They canceled Christmas, and then, of course,

01:32:35.760 they canceled spring break, and now it's Easter celebration

01:32:40.120 coming up this weekend um so i'm anticipating that part of the reason they didn't move to

01:32:46.200 another staged opening was because that's when you're allowed to see your family so they want

01:32:50.180 to cancel all of our easter dinners does does that change any anything for you what what's

01:32:55.180 going to happen at the church this weekend for you well you know like we're gonna have to um

01:33:00.300 so sunday we're not willing to compromise on um and so we we're gonna be open on sunday

01:33:07.220 um you know we have to wrestle with uh good friday you know at this point in time we're

01:33:13.160 planning to meet um but but good friday is not a day that that it's not a hill that we're

01:33:18.580 necessarily willing to die on so we're gonna have to discuss as a leadership whether uh we're gonna

01:33:23.840 we're gonna gonna open up on uh on friday um as planned but uh you know like sundays are

01:33:32.440 non-negotiable for us and nothing has changed the variant does not change

01:33:36.640 anything so so nothing changes for us clamping down doesn't change anything for

01:33:41.220 us and yeah I don't know if that answers your question but well it does I get I

01:33:48.620 think I'm sort of more putting it out there for our audience to kind of ask

01:33:51.940 themselves what is it you're gonna we're all gonna do if we don't end up with more

01:33:56.860 freedom when you when you talk about going back to live your life normally

01:34:01.420 like as i mentioned i'm still not doing mass gatherings i've been asked to go to speak at a

01:34:05.500 bunch of events i'm not i we do have our restaurant open for now unless they close it down again

01:34:11.180 i do have 10 dear friends in my cohort that i've decided to just start seeing um i feel like my

01:34:17.820 life is pretty normal right now is that is that kind of what you're asking people to consider

01:34:22.540 doing yeah i mean it's hard for me to put myself in everyone's shoes i mean you know like for us

01:34:30.060 for example, as a local church, you know, the one thing that we do that would be different from

01:34:37.160 the person that doesn't attend church is that we meet on Sundays. That's the one thing

01:34:41.200 that we need to do. And that's where for someone that doesn't trust Christ, doesn't know Christ

01:34:49.180 isn't saved, when it comes to complying with the health orders, they don't have any command

01:34:58.460 or compulsion to do anything um that would violate those health orders so they can comply

01:35:03.360 rather easily for us as a church we can't do that because we serve the lord jesus christ so

01:35:08.520 um you know it's hard for me to put myself in other people's shoes to know what they need to

01:35:12.800 be doing or could be doing or should be doing responsibly to to um to exercise their civil

01:35:18.780 liberties um i mean i just don't want people to be afraid and uh so it's hard it's hard for me to

01:35:24.860 i can't um i can't i can't make that call for every person they've got to make that call on

01:35:30.860 their own let's talk about what happened last week because i i know dave naylor was um and

01:35:36.280 western standard wrote what happened i i just wondered after you being released whether they

01:35:41.980 give you a break on your first week out and it doesn't sound like they did i mean we i know that

01:35:48.440 there's a fitness i mentioned this on one of the shows last week there's a gym where essentially

01:35:53.440 AHS and law enforcement is there every single day monitoring how heavy people breathe and writing

01:36:01.180 her tickets preemptively for her saying, sorry, you're not allowed into my establishment. So I

01:36:07.480 think that she's getting tickets because she's not allowing an inspector to inspect her place.

01:36:11.820 And so there are a few people they've made an example of. What happened on Sunday? Did they

01:36:17.440 leave you alone or were they there prepared to do the enforcement again?

01:36:23.440 Yeah, I mean, they did come, although I didn't have any word really of it until right before the service. So right before the service, I was told that the RCMP wanted to come in. And so you can understand how difficult that would be for me.

01:36:40.080 i was in jail for five weeks they didn't come into our facility as i understand that they stayed

01:36:45.440 off our property for those five weeks then the first sunday i'm back i find out literally the

01:36:51.200 moment before i'm gonna speak to my congregation in the welcome that the rcmp wants to come in

01:36:57.200 now that's difficult i mean you know number one it's it's a challenge no matter how you dice it

01:37:04.240 i mean when the rcmp comes in as much as i love the rcmp and respect the rcmp and respect

01:37:09.920 law enforcement and what they do, and we gave them standing ovations, it is a little unnerving

01:37:14.700 to have the RCMP in your service. Now, that gets elevated when you've just come out of jail. And

01:37:22.300 it's elevated even more when they're doing something different than they've done previously.

01:37:28.160 So when the RCMP and AHS aren't coming in for five weeks in a row, and then they all of a sudden

01:37:32.940 decide they're coming in, well, what does that signal to me? I mean, I had to sit through the

01:37:37.780 service on sunday wondering if i was going to be arrested again literally and and so you know our

01:37:44.380 guys were able to keep them out and uh and so we were able to to have that welcome together as a

01:37:52.340 congregation um without the the presence of the rcmp and ahs ahs but um yeah it's it's to the point

01:38:03.040 now where it is disruptive it it affects my ability to carry out my god-given responsibility

01:38:08.980 um and and so while my respect for the rcmp hasn't changed um i i i am um

01:38:19.040 i am growing weary of of this this ongoing battle and and i think about it too like we

01:38:28.260 it's in the court system you know like we this thing's in the court system where there's a

01:38:33.580 dispute that's at play at this time let's let the dispute play itself out uh let let's let this go

01:38:40.540 you know the ahs obviously believes that it has the authority to do what it's doing um we're

01:38:47.260 challenging that and we're subject to christ and his authority and he will ultimately judge

01:38:52.300 every individual in ahs and so i just think it's time to recognize that we're at an impasse

01:38:59.580 um we we need to obey christ and and it's in the court system so so let's let's let the courts

01:39:07.360 resolve this and uh and and allow us to gather um without being hounded by them and harassed by

01:39:18.060 them every single Sunday. Truly, because they could continue harassing you now, I guess, for,

01:39:22.200 gosh, you know, five or six weeks before the court date. Let's talk about what you hope comes out of

01:39:27.740 that court proceeding in Maine. I mean, what if they don't take your side? What's the impact of

01:39:34.160 that? Yeah, I think it'd be difficult. I don't know that I should comment on that at this point

01:39:41.220 in time um obviously uh i don't want to do anything that would would compromise the integrity

01:39:47.860 of of that of that challenge and uh i you know you know as far as the outcome is concerned we

01:39:54.780 would certainly want uh the courts to recognize that the health orders are infringing on our

01:40:03.360 civil liberties to such an extent that it's uh it's it's it's over the top it's it's not it's

01:40:09.680 it's disproportionate to the actual severity of the virus, that it's not even the most effective

01:40:17.880 way to go about trying to mitigate the spread of the virus. I mean, even the health orders

01:40:22.220 themselves, they're not really health orders, they're behavior orders. And so obviously we'd

01:40:29.320 like the courts to support the fact that what's happening right now is an unjustified infringement

01:40:38.920 on our charter rights is there another charge that's come against the church itself does that

01:40:43.800 is that an entirely separate action i'm not even sure i know what that means does that is that we

01:40:49.000 received yeah we received the court summons uh a few weeks ago and and that's to the church as an

01:40:55.720 entity it's not it's not directed at an individual and so um so that's i don't know how it's going to

01:41:03.240 get worked out if it gets added to sort of my uh court hearing or if it's a separate court hearing

01:41:10.440 that's kind of in the hands of my lawyers okay well we'll continue to watch that play out what

01:41:15.640 kind of feedback have you gotten from um from people what what uh what sort of i mean i started

01:41:22.280 by saying there's been the negative comments because there's always always trolls who will

01:41:26.840 find some reason to say nasty things but has has the feedback been on balance more positive than

01:41:33.560 negative well so there's been lots of positive feedback and and let me say that that you know

01:41:40.280 where we stand as a local church um we do have a a community that that um you know is canada wide

01:41:49.960 and and into the u.s and and all of the the men that i could have ever asked to stand with us

01:41:57.320 and support us my seminary for example um the gentleman that pastored me during my seminary

01:42:03.960 time john macarthur um men here in in canada so there's been there's been immense support from

01:42:10.920 um from all of the individuals that i would want support from so we we are not an anomaly

01:42:16.520 uh we we have lots of churches here in canada the us around the world that are supportive of us and

01:42:22.360 just to give you just a an indication um i was receiving uh mail at at the remand and this is

01:42:30.680 just a portion of it i mean this is a just a fraction of it but this was uh here's all the

01:42:37.480 mail or at least some of the mail that i received from the remand there's been um hundreds of emails

01:42:44.840 sent to our office uh account there's uh there's there's mail that i still haven't even gone

01:42:52.800 through um the the support we've had support from germany we had someone from germany write us and

01:42:59.800 are appalled that that this is happening and and so just think about that for a moment that's from

01:43:04.900 germany netherlands uh we've had we've had contact from iran um africa all over the world and uh so

01:43:14.340 the support is is uh overwhelming unbelievable that's the thing that's so shocking to me is that

01:43:21.180 i i think of jason kenney as being our most liberty loving premier and yet we've had some

01:43:27.060 of the worst examples of of of police over enforcement i think of the young guy ocean

01:43:33.500 weisblatt weisblatt who was threatened with tasering when he was out playing ice hockey

01:43:38.580 on an outdoor rink and what's happened to you i don't even know if there's another pastor

01:43:43.000 in the world who's been in prison have you heard of anybody else has been who's experienced what

01:43:48.960 you've experienced not over COVID-19 no I mean pastors have been in prison for sure um and so

01:43:55.500 that's not the first by any stretch even within the context of of our generation worldwide but

01:44:01.200 I don't know of anyone that's been jailed for you know health orders in COVID-19 wild okay let's

01:44:08.660 talk just in the last few minutes that we've got here about the impact on your family so i could

01:44:15.560 not believe how stoic and lovely and forgiving aaron was when i spoke with her um just sort of

01:44:22.660 a picture of calm um maybe she's a little bit different when the camera's not on and you get to

01:44:29.680 to see just how how rattled she might be but how has it how's it been for her when i spoke with her

01:44:34.780 was still really quite early on five weeks is a long time to be without you yeah i mean i think

01:44:40.660 it was tough on her i think um us being apart was difficult for her she um she was without her head

01:44:47.440 without her leader um and uh and and so i think just the the pressure of the time um the volatility

01:44:56.160 of the time the chaos of the time the uh all of the the the media stuff that she did uh was

01:45:04.500 incredibly busy uh so she was exhausted uh but she was fighting for me she was she was um going

01:45:12.200 to bat for me and so um so i think it's it's been hard for her at the same time you know

01:45:17.640 we didn't ask for this obviously but but we're here as slaves of christ jesus says if any man

01:45:25.500 wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me. And so we

01:45:32.200 have been born from above. We have turned away from our sin and looked to Christ for forgiveness.

01:45:41.460 We have trusted in his death and resurrection on the cross as a sufficient and only sufficient

01:45:49.000 final payment for our sin uh we have the hope of heaven before us we we know that even if we die

01:45:56.020 in this life and and we anticipate that we will die unless the lord should return first

01:45:59.880 that uh that we we have everlasting life and and we'll live in the new heavens and new earth

01:46:06.160 um so so we we're here to serve the lord and and so he he he laid down his life for us he took the

01:46:15.120 wrath of God on the cross for our sins. And, and so for us to go through some momentary light

01:46:21.340 affliction, uh, is, is, uh, just a joy and, and yes, difficult. Um, but, uh, but he is worthy

01:46:29.880 and, and faithful and, and glorious and good and just. And so we, we, uh, we happily do that.

01:46:40.660 Let's talk about the impact on your kids. Cause you mentioned that you didn't,

01:46:44.520 um uh become devout until 23 your kids are a little bit younger than that

01:46:50.620 how how are they how are they dealing with everything you've gone through

01:46:54.160 yeah they i think they're doing well i mean um our our oldest has uh you know he's he's trusted

01:47:05.020 christ so he knows the lord and and he's he's following after him so he's he's um you know it

01:47:12.040 was hard for him initially but i think you know they understand what's happening right now and

01:47:17.340 and they understand this comes with following christ and and that sometimes you have to suffer

01:47:22.760 in following him and so he understands that my youngest is obviously um processing things a

01:47:29.300 little bit more differently and doesn't quite have the understanding that the the oldest does but um

01:47:35.140 but lord willing his his his understanding will increase and and i think he's just happy to have

01:47:40.440 dad back and uh and hopefully it stays that way so we'll have to play that by ear i guess so is

01:47:46.920 he okay because i think aaron mentioned that kids at school were saying rotten things to him i think

01:47:51.960 one had just said your your dad's actions are going to kill people or something along those

01:47:57.080 lines i don't know how much more negativity the kids have been subjected to you know kids are

01:48:02.760 kids parrot the things that they hear their parents say and so that's why i'm i'm wondering

01:48:07.640 it sounds like you've got a very supportive family life very supportive church community but you can't

01:48:13.000 can't protect everyone from from all the outside influences is uh has has have either your kids

01:48:18.600 faced any more of that you know i i think it's possible the the oldest did get a little bit of

01:48:24.040 pushback from some of his uh classmates but but um has for the most part received a lot of support

01:48:30.920 um and uh and i think won a teacher over in the whole thing too really um and and then as far as

01:48:37.640 my youngest goes it was just one interaction with with uh just a one of his close friends and i think

01:48:44.200 that got worked out so um they they're they're hanging out again and enjoying each other's

01:48:49.720 company and uh so i think i think uh you know it's it's good for for him to be able to experience

01:48:56.280 stuff like that uh that's part of life and and so we don't try and shelter our our boys from that

01:49:02.920 we just want to help shepherd them through it but i think uh that's the only real negative

01:49:07.640 interaction he received and i think i think that that got resolved good so tell us if you had a

01:49:14.520 prediction about how this all plays out what what do you think happens from here i keep going back

01:49:20.200 and forth between feeling like i i was feeling really hopeful actually when i decided to leave

01:49:25.960 media i was thinking okay well it'll be a couple more months the weather will turn we'll be back

01:49:30.840 to the way things were last summer uh life will be near normal and then everyone who wants to

01:49:37.000 have a vaccination will have one and we'll have enough people who have been vaccinated that by

01:49:43.080 september surely we're we're back in the same not no not new normal new normal would be the old

01:49:50.040 normal that's that was what i had hoped but then all of the hysteria and strange strange reporting

01:49:56.280 around variants i think one of the docs i had on last week so we're we nearly have 4 000 variants

01:50:01.640 variants are sort of a natural thing that happens to viruses why we have change in influenza shots

01:50:07.480 every year but if if they're going to take this strange reaction to every

01:50:12.440 variant that crops up I it makes me really nervous that we aren't going to

01:50:16.660 get back to normal so give me give me your your best prediction about how this

01:50:20.800 plays out yeah it's hard to say I mean I think with the summer months coming you

01:50:27.520 would expect that there'd be a lightning of restrictions to some point I don't

01:50:32.420 think i don't think we're going to get the full-blown normal in the summertime so i think

01:50:38.360 there'll still be restrictions on churches and and and that kind of thing um i think that uh

01:50:45.800 i mean my understanding is and and i'm not totally dialed in on this that there were protests in

01:50:52.060 uh ontario quebec uh obviously there have been protests here in alberta so i think like good

01:50:59.440 healthy civil unrest on that level where there's just a an appropriate um protest happening a

01:51:05.840 peaceful protest is is helpful in putting pressure on the government to to demonstrate that the

01:51:12.220 people are not are not buying the narrative and and and it's time to go back to normal

01:51:17.720 so i just i don't know i don't know for me like i just try and survive the week that i'm in

01:51:22.780 um I uh I don't know what is going to happen with me um I I seem to be a marked enemy and

01:51:34.820 and and when I say that I'm not I'm not talking in the spiritual sense although that's true too

01:51:39.940 I think that uh the the government and and AHS see me as like public enemy number one

01:51:48.760 And I don't know if that's true, but it's the way that it feels at times.

01:51:54.200 And so when it comes, I'm just trying to get through the week that I'm in and the day that I'm in,

01:52:00.560 let alone anticipate being on a golf course in the summer, which would be phenomenal, by the way.

01:52:08.120 Well, I'm sure you'll be able to do that because golf courses were one of the first things to open up last year.

01:52:12.260 At least outdoor activities are freeing up a bit.

01:52:15.060 But it makes me weary to think that every time we get into respiratory virus season in October,

01:52:21.700 it's going to be open up, shut down, open up, shut down, and it's going to last until

01:52:26.320 end of spring break. And we're going to have restrictions on our ability to travel. I mean,

01:52:31.080 in the UK, they've made it illegal now to travel for holiday purposes on pain of a $5,000 fine.

01:52:37.240 And so I guess I'm just wondering what happens if we have to weather this through for years.

01:52:45.060 i don't know if we have any precedent on this is there what are you looking to as a way of

01:52:49.700 giving you strength that this turns out to be a long-term battle well it's it's unprecedented to

01:52:56.020 your to your point i mean never have we quarantined the healthy to to mitigate the spread of a virus

01:53:03.140 i mean the these steps are so bizarre um and and out of step by the way with the old testament

01:53:10.580 scriptures the the old testament scriptures have instruction on how to deal with uh these kinds of

01:53:16.020 issues and it's not quarantine the healthy it's quarantine the sick um so i just i just uh

01:53:24.820 yeah i don't i don't know um what what why don't i ask one more thing because i i talk to

01:53:31.460 to people who are involved in in the kind of events that haven't been allowed to open because

01:53:37.460 of mass gatherings and there's almost a sort of an acceptance that oh well you know i guess

01:53:42.980 we'll have to have vaccine passports and you're not going to be allowed to have concerts again

01:53:47.300 or sporting events again until you flash a barcode that shows that that you have had your vaccination

01:53:53.700 i wonder how serious a um a proposal that is and and what would that what would that mean if they

01:54:00.580 if they came up with a rule like that on mass congregations that the only way they're allowed

01:54:06.260 is if you if you have if you have some proof of vaccination yeah i mean we have to cross that

01:54:13.620 bridge when we get there i mean obviously um you know if there was it's just difficult i mean

01:54:20.500 people have their own opinions about vaccines i'm not an anti-vaxxer um so yeah i i don't know i

01:54:27.860 don't know what you do at that point in time it seems to me that that's too much government

01:54:31.620 involvement for the government to be telling you you need a vaccine to go here there and everywhere

01:54:36.020 that that's that's like a level of micromanagement in my life that i think is unhealthy um you know

01:54:43.140 i think the vaccines need to be safe you know this point maybe needs to be raised um you know

01:54:48.580 when when when dina hinshaw talks about the the current vaccines being authorized it's important

01:54:53.380 to know they haven't been approved they've been emergency authorized they haven't been sufficiently

01:54:58.980 tested to uh to be approved and and so like i don't have a ton of confidence in the vaccines

01:55:08.900 and you're not alone on that i mean we were told a week ago that astrazeneca was perfectly safe for

01:55:13.380 all ages and now we've got this provincial committee saying if you're under age 55 don't

01:55:18.180 take it so there's a there is mixed messaging there too it's so common yeah and here's the

01:55:22.100 thing like when i when i think about it i think like wouldn't it just be better to get the virus

01:55:25.700 itself i mean if 99 of the people that get the virus are gonna are gonna fully recover like why

01:55:31.700 get the vaccine like why don't just get the virus you know and i'm not saying like have a covid party

01:55:36.820 or something stupid like that i'm just saying you know i'm quite happy to let my immune system

01:55:42.100 uh fight off what it can and and let it let it rely on its own internal god-given uh ability to

01:55:49.700 do that then then rely on the the artificial approach of a of a vaccine for for a sickness

01:55:56.120 that that's that's not severe enough to warrant that i mean i'm not a flu shot guy if if people

01:56:01.020 are flu shot people and they do that that's fine um but you know i i don't i don't take a flu shot

01:56:07.080 to mitigate the flu so i just don't understand you know why and and that just proves it like

01:56:13.640 you know people are so excited they're getting their vaccine and and now they have freedom and

01:56:17.660 think man like you really have to be buying the mainstream media narrative to be so happy about

01:56:23.020 a vaccine that's going to protect you from a virus that that you could be asymptomatic on anyway and

01:56:29.420 and and not even know you had the virus you you might already be immune you may have already had

01:56:34.780 the virus and and didn't even know it and now you're you're putting a vaccine in your body

01:56:40.780 um and and and and i pray to god that it would not harm anyone um so you know i was initially

01:56:48.540 persuaded by the idea of allowing us our freedoms back with the um increase in vaccination of the

01:56:55.020 population but what i'm hearing you say is you know freedom for freedom's sake like there's

01:57:00.060 there's good enough reasons to take our freedom back and to want our freedom back without being

01:57:04.300 contingent well you said that that was libertarian i mean i'm not even sure if i understand what it

01:57:09.980 it means to be libertarian i i just uh i think the government's too involved in my life and and i

01:57:17.320 don't know if that's libertarian or just biblical i mean i i want to be able to exercise my god-given

01:57:24.460 rights and freedoms so that i can promote human flourishing and be a blessing to my community

01:57:30.940 and right now um the government's involvement in my life is is um and and in the lives of all

01:57:37.520 burdens is precluding that so um i i don't know i don't claim to be a libertarian or

01:57:43.600 or or anything like that i probably need to study it more to understand what it means but um well

01:57:49.440 i love the way i love the way you just naturally talk about freedom i i appreciate that it's so

01:57:54.320 rare these days you have given been so generous with your time tonight i really appreciate it i

01:57:59.200 think we'll i'll probably invite dave naylor back to uh to join us and to to sign off but

01:58:05.520 this has been a conversation with pastor james coates i don't think that we have heard the last

01:58:10.160 of him thank you so much for being generous with your time tonight pastor pastor james thank you

01:58:14.480 for having me take it away thanks daniel what a great show i noticed comments from florida from

01:58:23.440 utah from california from all across canada literally thousands of comments and i apologize

01:58:31.600 if some people thought I was putting up too many.

01:58:37.620 Just a reminder, if you liked what you saw

01:58:41.580 and would like to see more,

01:58:43.620 please go to our Facebook, our membership site,

01:58:47.500 and give us a look-see.

01:58:50.580 And a reminder that tonight's show

01:58:52.440 was sponsored by Kyron's Way,

01:58:54.600 a good local business that deserves your support.

01:58:58.980 So Pastor James, Danielle Smith, thank you very much for an excellent show.

01:59:05.980 Thank you for watching.

01:59:08.420 Stay well, everybody, and we'll see you soon.

01:59:11.560 Good night.

01:59:12.060 Thanks again.

01:59:12.660 Good night, all.

01:59:13.540 Thanks, Danielle.

01:59:14.180 Thanks, guys.

01:59:14.800 You bet.

01:59:15.140 Thank you.

01:59:28.980 You

Western Standard - March 31, 2021

March 30, 2021

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