Mark Milke of the Aristotle Foundation how the right has to stop acting like the left
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Summary
In this episode, I sit down with the founder of the Aristotle Institute for Public Policy, Mark Cuban, to talk about the need to stop being so much like the left, and how to be more like the right.
Transcript
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Hey Mark, how you doing? I am great, Corey. Thanks for having me on.
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Yeah, I appreciate it. And you're with the Aristotle Institute Foundation these days.
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I am. So we hope to launch publicly later this year, maybe early 2023. We're going to deal with
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issues like reason, democracy, civilization, all quite weighty, but we'll break them down
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over time. And even some of the issues you just talked about, like crime in cities.
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This is, I think, an increasingly, it's increasingly evidence that crime in cities
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is eroding, say, the civilization that we have in cities, right? Someone can't walk your dog and,
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you know, in a park without tripping over needles, that sort of thing. So there's a lot to go after
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these days, I think. And we're going to do that at the Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy.
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Great. Well, lots to look forward to. And I see in the meantime, you're still sharing a lot of
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thoughts while you've released books, of course, a number of them over the years. But the one that
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caught my eye this time around, though, was that that recent one. And this is one I'm sure you got
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some hot feedback on, but fair enough. And you called a spade a spade, I think,
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and just saying that some of the people on the right should really stop acting like the left.
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Well, the genius of the last 500 years and, you know, Western civilization anyway,
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has been that, you know, we stop worshiping leaders. The divine right of kings is pretty old now.
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Nobody takes it seriously. And we don't act like the left, a small C conservatives. We don't worship
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leaders for their own sake and say, only if we get the right leader, then all will be well.
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It's nice to have the right leader has some good ideas, but you don't want to rely on that. And
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the lesson of the last 500 years in Western society, and increasingly around the world,
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is that institutions matter. So you need the rule of law, you need courts to be independent,
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so on and so forth. You need to be careful about your rhetoric. Well, historically, the left has been
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revolutionary. They believe in dear leader from Lenin to Mao to Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. The left has
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made these mistakes, really shredding institutions, believing in leaders, using extreme rhetoric,
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calling Mitt Romney a fascist or a Nazi, I mean, about 10 years ago, mild mannered Mormon, Mitt Romney.
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So the left has often made these mistakes. And there's really no way to sort of help society,
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you know, correct its errors and move ahead with good policy. So but increasingly, I'm also seeing
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this on the right. So that's why I wrote the column for the Financial Post. I'm seeing evidence of some
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of this behavior on what, you know, broadly can be construed as the right, you know, people who think of
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themselves as conservatives or libertarians or what have you. Yeah, and you brought up some examples.
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I mean, I guess some of it's the hyperbole, the extreme polarization. As you said, you know,
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when we're calling other leaders, as frustrating as it might be, calling Trudeau a fascist is still,
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you know, too far. Or a communist. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't think highly of Trudeau,
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and there's many, many things he can be critiqued for. I think there's a strong streak of authoritarianism
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within him that's of concern. But when you sort of lose your case when you reach to the very
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extremes to try and describe somebody. Well, it's word inflation. I mean, if everybody's a fascist or a
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Nazi or a communist, then what does that mean when you encounter a real Nazi, fascist or communist,
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right? So let's get to some clear examples. I think there's been dear leader worship ever since
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Donald Trump came onto the scene, at least in politics, since 2016. And, you know, I think it's
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abhorrent what happened on January the 6th, so 2021. And I think that showed who Donald Trump was.
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Nonetheless, even before that, I think there was evidence that here was a fellow who didn't really
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respect American institutions set up by Thomas Jefferson and others, two and a half centuries
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ago, or almost two and a half centuries ago. And so one has to be careful not to take sides,
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take your own side, so to speak, at face value, and the language these days. So again, look,
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I think the Emergencies Act was a gross overreaction. It was a violation of civil rights and by the current
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federal government. There's no question about shutting the bank accounts and using the Emergencies
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Act to deal with blockades at the border, the trucker blockades at the border was a vast
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overreaction. And I don't agree with the blockades at the border. I didn't in February. I don't now.
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I mean, those of us on the right who are, you know, we could be considered smallest and conservative,
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and I don't mean this in a partisan sense. I mean, those again, who kind of hew to conservative ideals,
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you know, open markets, open trade, the rule of law, the importance of institutions, the importance of
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civil society, of little platoons, as Edmund Burke called them, you can't cheer on truckers at the
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border, shutting down trade and commerce, just because they're on your side and talking about
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freedom. If you also don't like it when indigenous folk do this, when environmentalists do this to
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pipelines, when other act of the shutdown city cores. So I think it helps to be consistent,
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but I'm seeing increasingly on the right, some even think tank leaders will refer to the prime
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minister, again, as a communist or Nazi or Premier Kenney is that in Alberta. That is,
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that's inflationary language is the best way to put it. And it's not helpful. It's also not
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accurate. Look, again, I have huge concerns. I think the Emergencies Act was a hammer to deal with,
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you know, trade issues or border issues, border closure issues that obviously could have been
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dealt with and were dealt with through legislation at Coutts. So I think there's been a vast overreaction
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on all sides. And it doesn't help small C conservatives then to just throw away their, what, their brains or
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their tact or their prudence and join in kind of the, the crusade of overreacting or using hyped
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up language. I just don't think that helps. Well, yeah. And I understand frustration, but
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you know, it pushes some people too. I had some, you know, Twitter is always where I like to sink
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into the lower depths of debate, but there's some good points. And there was an incident recently
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with a restaurant where the owner had posed, I guess, Justin Trudeau was doing some sort of PR thing
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there and he had pictures with Trudeau and he was swarmed at the restaurant was swarmed on social
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media. They took his Google reviews all the way down to, you know, one 0.5 or something. And,
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and, and people went after that business. And I just, that I thought I said on Twitter,
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this is ugly to behold guys. This isn't the right way to deal with it. You got a problem with Trudeau,
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fine, but lay off a business owner who had a prime minister visiting. And of course they were all
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saying, well, look what happened with Polyev when he went to steam whistle. Okay. But two wrongs don't make
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a right. And that's kind of what the mentality some people are taking on. And that's just making it,
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as I said, two wrongs. We're not benefiting at all when we go that route.
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No. And again, I think it shreds the ability to have what a reasonable debate or, you know,
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respond appropriately. And again, you know, we don't like it, you know, those of us who again,
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are, you know, we'd be considered on the right. And I think those are, you know, very wide general
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terms, but let's go with it. You know, and I did in my column for the sake of, you know, some,
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some context, those on the right who don't like, like it when some, some businesses is boycotted
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because what they, they say something on Twitter, you know, or, or they host a prime minister,
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like, you know, former prime minister, Stephen Harper or something. Nobody likes it when, when
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that happens to our side. So yes, I don't, I don't think it's helpful to do it to the other side.
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I mean, like there are egregious instances where you may decide not to work with business. I mean,
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maybe if they're in, you know, engaged in slavery in some third world country, okay,
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let's boycott that business. But I mean, to, to, to, to jump on the bandwagon, or like you mentioned
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on Twitter to, to attack a restaurant. I mean, this is nuts. I mean, let me give you an example
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from New York that happened, I think it was about a year and a half ago, where some restaurant
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that, I don't know, failed to properly do something on some, I think it was a Black Lives Matter
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issue or something, or no, it was some, a couple of patrons who happened to be black showed up at a New
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York restaurant. And I can't remember if they were, they were asked to put on like proper attire or
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something. It was more, you know, upper-class restaurant or whatever it was, or maybe they
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refused seating because they didn't book in advance. I can't remember what it was, but it
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turned into a causal lever for BLM and the poor restaurant owner who was just trying to enforce
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some standards or, you know, book reservations in advance or whatever it was. I don't remember all
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these details. Got attacked on Twitter. Same thing as you just mentioned. I mean, it was a vast
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overreaction. It was unfair to the restaurant owner, but all of a sudden people are becoming targets.
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It's a bit of a revolutionary sentiment, actually. And again, on the conservative side, we used to
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believe that reform mattered, that you take a gradualistic approach to change. It's the Edmund
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Burke approach. You don't overthrow your monarchy in 1789 like the French do. We don't do this in
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English-speaking countries. You know, we modify things over time. And I think that's a much better
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approach. I mean, Canada was founded on a reaction to the revolution in 1776 in the United States.
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We have plenty of people who said, we don't really appreciate being chased up by, you know,
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and tarred and feathered in New York and Boston and who ended up as refugees in what we now call
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Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada. I mean, so the history of Canada is a little more, I don't
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want to use the word moderate. That's a, you know, that's a ridiculous word. It doesn't mean anything
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these days, but a more measured, prudent approach to changing society. So yeah, I think we've got some
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problems here. And it's not like we have to ignore the issue of freedom. That was the second column you
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referred to in the national post that I wrote. We do have a strong history of freedom in this
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country. And I do have concerns, massive concerns that it's being eroded. The emergencies act was
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evidence of that. But then let's think smartly how to push back on this kind of stuff. And that's one
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of the reasons I'm setting up a think tank and others are helping me and others do this is because
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I think there's ways to push back and we should push back. But let's not imitate the most egregious,
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extreme measures of the left. I just think that's that's a recipe for disaster. And in fact,
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you know, it saves the left from smashing into a brick wall on some of these issues that they should
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be held to account for. Yeah, well, and as you pointed out in that second piece, I want to talk
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briefly about that, you know, you're pointing out we have a history of freedom, we as a people have a
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respect and, you know, an enjoyment of it. And it is threatened, there's no doubt about that. It's been
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infringed upon. So we should be concerned and pushing back. But, you know, kind of tying these
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two together, just because it's an important issue doesn't mean you have to pull out all the stops. I
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mean, in your first piece, you did point out, despite some of the hyperbole, we do have democratic
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mechanisms to change government, even if it feels frustrating, even if it feels like it's not working
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at times. Another area where I got into it with a lot of people was when protesters were showing up
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outside of the mayor's house in Calgary at her private residence. I said, no, I mean,
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and I'm on Gondek's case all the time. I have no fan of hers. But leave her home alone. And then
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others are saying, well, the difference infringing on my freedom, I have every right. Look, you are
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not doing your cause any favors when you go out and do stuff like that any more than when the left
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goes in. You lose the ability to argue that nobody should show up at your place if you
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err at some point in the future, or someone argues you err at some point in the future. And again,
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if you're going to pick the pick at the mayor's home, then you can't really complain about Supreme
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Court justices being picketed in the United States or here one day or other
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politicians. Again, this is a very dangerous road to tread. On the freedom issue, again,
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look, I have great concerns about the erosion of freedom in Canada, which is why I wrote the second
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column. And so in the first column in the Financial Post, I picked on the right, said stop acting like
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the left. In the second column, I said, for those of you who are more liberal, progressive, woke,
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left wing, whatever you want to call yourselves, who argue, you know, freedom is just a dog whistle.
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It doesn't have a tradition in Canada. Wrong. It does. We were one of the first countries in the world,
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pre-confederation to abolish slavery. Governor James Cinco worked towards that end starting in 1791. It
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was practically abolished by 1820 before the British Empire even abolished it long before the Americans
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abolished slavery. We have a tradition of freedom from John Diefenbaker, the Bill of Rights that he
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in Parliament passed in 1960, which was an important milestone. And he restored the right to vote to
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indigenous Canadians. That was important. Pierre Trudeau, who normally I would disagree with almost
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everything, especially economically. Pierre Trudeau, for all his faults, understood that civil rights,
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rights belong to individuals first. They are not dispensed to you by government. That's an important
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thing to remind his son of these days and others on the left or progressives or woke. We do have a
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tradition of freedom. Rights begin with the individual. And Pierre Trudeau was no fan of identity politics.
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He hated nationalism in Quebec. He didn't like the idea that a small collective, you know,
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like Quebec nationalists or a large collective like Quebec nationalists in Quebec grew over a
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small collective English speakers. He hated that. He was in favor of individual rights.
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And he was eloquent in his defense of individual freedom, although I would disagree with him on some
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other issues. So we have a tradition of freedom in this country, whether it's James Cinco,
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whether it's Wilfred Lorre, who I mentioned in my column, or even Pierre Trudeau on some issues.
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That needs to be remembered as well. But I would urge my colleagues, so to speak, in the think tank
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world or in journalism and elsewhere, not to use hyperbole. Again, if everybody's a Nazi or a communist
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or a fascist, then nobody's paying attention when a real version of that comes along.
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We'll be able to call it out when we can. I'm not sure if you're getting me clearly. I think we're
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having a few connection issues here, but we're hearing you all right. Well, I think I've lost you again.
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Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just having a few connection issues. So before I let you go, where can we keep
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up with you? You've got the Aristotle Foundation on the go and you publish elsewhere. Where can people
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see more of your articles and such, Mark? AristotleFoundation.org, MarkMilke.com,
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VictimCult.com. So those will all do it, but AristotleFoundation.com or .ca and MarkMilke.com.
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Those will get you to where you need to go. Excellent. Well, thanks for coming in to talk to
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us today, Mark. They're always good discussions to keep people thinking, even if we don't always
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all agree on them. So I hope we can talk again soon down the road. Thank you, Corey.