Western Standard - Mark Milke of the Aristotle Foundation how the right has to stop acting like the left

00:00:00.000 Hey Mark, how you doing? I am great, Corey. Thanks for having me on.

00:00:03.600 Yeah, I appreciate it. And you're with the Aristotle Institute Foundation these days.

00:00:08.320 I am. So we hope to launch publicly later this year, maybe early 2023. We're going to deal with

00:00:13.680 issues like reason, democracy, civilization, all quite weighty, but we'll break them down

00:00:18.080 over time. And even some of the issues you just talked about, like crime in cities.

00:00:22.800 This is, I think, an increasingly, it's increasingly evidence that crime in cities

00:00:28.080 is eroding, say, the civilization that we have in cities, right? Someone can't walk your dog and,

00:00:32.720 you know, in a park without tripping over needles, that sort of thing. So there's a lot to go after

00:00:36.880 these days, I think. And we're going to do that at the Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy.

00:00:41.280 Great. Well, lots to look forward to. And I see in the meantime, you're still sharing a lot of

00:00:45.360 thoughts while you've released books, of course, a number of them over the years. But the one that

00:00:49.280 caught my eye this time around, though, was that that recent one. And this is one I'm sure you got

00:00:53.200 some hot feedback on, but fair enough. And you called a spade a spade, I think,

00:00:58.160 and just saying that some of the people on the right should really stop acting like the left.

00:01:02.800 Well, the genius of the last 500 years and, you know, Western civilization anyway,

00:01:07.280 has been that, you know, we stop worshiping leaders. The divine right of kings is pretty old now.

00:01:13.200 Nobody takes it seriously. And we don't act like the left, a small C conservatives. We don't worship 1.00

00:01:20.080 leaders for their own sake and say, only if we get the right leader, then all will be well.

00:01:24.160 It's nice to have the right leader has some good ideas, but you don't want to rely on that. And

00:01:28.320 the lesson of the last 500 years in Western society, and increasingly around the world,

00:01:32.880 is that institutions matter. So you need the rule of law, you need courts to be independent,

00:01:38.640 so on and so forth. You need to be careful about your rhetoric. Well, historically, the left has been

00:01:44.400 revolutionary. They believe in dear leader from Lenin to Mao to Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. The left has

00:01:52.320 made these mistakes, really shredding institutions, believing in leaders, using extreme rhetoric,

00:01:58.240 calling Mitt Romney a fascist or a Nazi, I mean, about 10 years ago, mild mannered Mormon, Mitt Romney.

00:02:04.640 So the left has often made these mistakes. And there's really no way to sort of help society,

00:02:09.600 you know, correct its errors and move ahead with good policy. So but increasingly, I'm also seeing

00:02:15.440 this on the right. So that's why I wrote the column for the Financial Post. I'm seeing evidence of some

00:02:20.400 of this behavior on what, you know, broadly can be construed as the right, you know, people who think of

00:02:25.120 themselves as conservatives or libertarians or what have you. Yeah, and you brought up some examples.

00:02:31.360 I mean, I guess some of it's the hyperbole, the extreme polarization. As you said, you know,

00:02:36.480 when we're calling other leaders, as frustrating as it might be, calling Trudeau a fascist is still,

00:02:43.040 you know, too far. Or a communist. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't think highly of Trudeau,

00:02:48.480 and there's many, many things he can be critiqued for. I think there's a strong streak of authoritarianism

00:02:52.960 within him that's of concern. But when you sort of lose your case when you reach to the very

00:02:59.120 extremes to try and describe somebody. Well, it's word inflation. I mean, if everybody's a fascist or a

00:03:04.880 Nazi or a communist, then what does that mean when you encounter a real Nazi, fascist or communist,

00:03:09.760 right? So let's get to some clear examples. I think there's been dear leader worship ever since

00:03:14.560 Donald Trump came onto the scene, at least in politics, since 2016. And, you know, I think it's

00:03:20.320 abhorrent what happened on January the 6th, so 2021. And I think that showed who Donald Trump was.

00:03:27.360 Nonetheless, even before that, I think there was evidence that here was a fellow who didn't really

00:03:31.680 respect American institutions set up by Thomas Jefferson and others, two and a half centuries

00:03:37.440 ago, or almost two and a half centuries ago. And so one has to be careful not to take sides,

00:03:43.280 take your own side, so to speak, at face value, and the language these days. So again, look,

00:03:49.120 I think the Emergencies Act was a gross overreaction. It was a violation of civil rights and by the current

00:03:57.120 federal government. There's no question about shutting the bank accounts and using the Emergencies

00:04:01.360 Act to deal with blockades at the border, the trucker blockades at the border was a vast

00:04:05.440 overreaction. And I don't agree with the blockades at the border. I didn't in February. I don't now.

00:04:10.880 I mean, those of us on the right who are, you know, we could be considered smallest and conservative,

00:04:14.800 and I don't mean this in a partisan sense. I mean, those again, who kind of hew to conservative ideals,

00:04:19.520 you know, open markets, open trade, the rule of law, the importance of institutions, the importance of

00:04:23.920 civil society, of little platoons, as Edmund Burke called them, you can't cheer on truckers at the

00:04:29.280 border, shutting down trade and commerce, just because they're on your side and talking about

00:04:34.320 freedom. If you also don't like it when indigenous folk do this, when environmentalists do this to

00:04:39.920 pipelines, when other act of the shutdown city cores. So I think it helps to be consistent,

00:04:45.200 but I'm seeing increasingly on the right, some even think tank leaders will refer to the prime

00:04:50.000 minister, again, as a communist or Nazi or Premier Kenney is that in Alberta. That is,

00:04:56.000 that's inflationary language is the best way to put it. And it's not helpful. It's also not

00:05:00.320 accurate. Look, again, I have huge concerns. I think the Emergencies Act was a hammer to deal with,

00:05:06.400 you know, trade issues or border issues, border closure issues that obviously could have been

00:05:11.440 dealt with and were dealt with through legislation at Coutts. So I think there's been a vast overreaction

00:05:16.800 on all sides. And it doesn't help small C conservatives then to just throw away their, what, their brains or 0.89

00:05:22.160 their tact or their prudence and join in kind of the, the crusade of overreacting or using hyped

00:05:29.040 up language. I just don't think that helps. Well, yeah. And I understand frustration, but

00:05:33.440 you know, it pushes some people too. I had some, you know, Twitter is always where I like to sink

00:05:37.200 into the lower depths of debate, but there's some good points. And there was an incident recently

00:05:41.680 with a restaurant where the owner had posed, I guess, Justin Trudeau was doing some sort of PR thing

00:05:45.920 there and he had pictures with Trudeau and he was swarmed at the restaurant was swarmed on social

00:05:50.080 media. They took his Google reviews all the way down to, you know, one 0.5 or something. And,

00:05:55.200 and, and people went after that business. And I just, that I thought I said on Twitter,

00:06:00.000 this is ugly to behold guys. This isn't the right way to deal with it. You got a problem with Trudeau,

00:06:03.680 fine, but lay off a business owner who had a prime minister visiting. And of course they were all

00:06:07.440 saying, well, look what happened with Polyev when he went to steam whistle. Okay. But two wrongs don't make

00:06:11.920 a right. And that's kind of what the mentality some people are taking on. And that's just making it,

00:06:16.400 as I said, two wrongs. We're not benefiting at all when we go that route.

00:06:20.320 No. And again, I think it shreds the ability to have what a reasonable debate or, you know,

00:06:24.960 respond appropriately. And again, you know, we don't like it, you know, those of us who again,

00:06:30.080 are, you know, we'd be considered on the right. And I think those are, you know, very wide general

00:06:33.200 terms, but let's go with it. You know, and I did in my column for the sake of, you know, some,

00:06:38.240 some context, those on the right who don't like, like it when some, some businesses is boycotted

00:06:44.880 because what they, they say something on Twitter, you know, or, or they host a prime minister,

00:06:49.440 like, you know, former prime minister, Stephen Harper or something. Nobody likes it when, when

00:06:53.280 that happens to our side. So yes, I don't, I don't think it's helpful to do it to the other side.

00:06:58.080 I mean, like there are egregious instances where you may decide not to work with business. I mean,

00:07:03.600 maybe if they're in, you know, engaged in slavery in some third world country, okay,

00:07:07.680 let's boycott that business. But I mean, to, to, to, to jump on the bandwagon, or like you mentioned

00:07:13.840 on Twitter to, to attack a restaurant. I mean, this is nuts. I mean, let me give you an example

00:07:18.800 from New York that happened, I think it was about a year and a half ago, where some restaurant

00:07:25.040 that, I don't know, failed to properly do something on some, I think it was a Black Lives Matter

00:07:29.840 issue or something, or no, it was some, a couple of patrons who happened to be black showed up at a New

00:07:34.400 York restaurant. And I can't remember if they were, they were asked to put on like proper attire or

00:07:38.320 something. It was more, you know, upper-class restaurant or whatever it was, or maybe they

00:07:42.720 refused seating because they didn't book in advance. I can't remember what it was, but it

00:07:45.600 turned into a causal lever for BLM and the poor restaurant owner who was just trying to enforce

00:07:50.160 some standards or, you know, book reservations in advance or whatever it was. I don't remember all

00:07:53.840 these details. Got attacked on Twitter. Same thing as you just mentioned. I mean, it was a vast

00:07:58.080 overreaction. It was unfair to the restaurant owner, but all of a sudden people are becoming targets.

00:08:02.560 It's a bit of a revolutionary sentiment, actually. And again, on the conservative side, we used to

00:08:06.800 believe that reform mattered, that you take a gradualistic approach to change. It's the Edmund

00:08:13.200 Burke approach. You don't overthrow your monarchy in 1789 like the French do. We don't do this in 1.00

00:08:17.840 English-speaking countries. You know, we modify things over time. And I think that's a much better 0.72

00:08:22.560 approach. I mean, Canada was founded on a reaction to the revolution in 1776 in the United States.

00:08:28.880 We have plenty of people who said, we don't really appreciate being chased up by, you know,

00:08:32.560 and tarred and feathered in New York and Boston and who ended up as refugees in what we now call 0.94

00:08:36.800 Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada. I mean, so the history of Canada is a little more, I don't

00:08:41.600 want to use the word moderate. That's a, you know, that's a ridiculous word. It doesn't mean anything 0.95

00:08:45.520 these days, but a more measured, prudent approach to changing society. So yeah, I think we've got some

00:08:52.080 problems here. And it's not like we have to ignore the issue of freedom. That was the second column you

00:08:56.240 referred to in the national post that I wrote. We do have a strong history of freedom in this

00:09:00.160 country. And I do have concerns, massive concerns that it's being eroded. The emergencies act was

00:09:05.120 evidence of that. But then let's think smartly how to push back on this kind of stuff. And that's one

00:09:10.240 of the reasons I'm setting up a think tank and others are helping me and others do this is because

00:09:14.800 I think there's ways to push back and we should push back. But let's not imitate the most egregious,

00:09:19.680 extreme measures of the left. I just think that's that's a recipe for disaster. And in fact,

00:09:25.280 you know, it saves the left from smashing into a brick wall on some of these issues that they should

00:09:30.160 be held to account for. Yeah, well, and as you pointed out in that second piece, I want to talk

00:09:35.040 briefly about that, you know, you're pointing out we have a history of freedom, we as a people have a

00:09:39.360 respect and, you know, an enjoyment of it. And it is threatened, there's no doubt about that. It's been

00:09:44.240 infringed upon. So we should be concerned and pushing back. But, you know, kind of tying these

00:09:50.320 two together, just because it's an important issue doesn't mean you have to pull out all the stops. I

00:09:54.240 mean, in your first piece, you did point out, despite some of the hyperbole, we do have democratic

00:09:58.640 mechanisms to change government, even if it feels frustrating, even if it feels like it's not working

00:10:02.640 at times. Another area where I got into it with a lot of people was when protesters were showing up

00:10:08.080 outside of the mayor's house in Calgary at her private residence. I said, no, I mean,

00:10:12.240 and I'm on Gondek's case all the time. I have no fan of hers. But leave her home alone. And then

00:10:17.760 others are saying, well, the difference infringing on my freedom, I have every right. Look, you are

00:10:21.440 not doing your cause any favors when you go out and do stuff like that any more than when the left

00:10:26.720 goes in. You lose the ability to argue that nobody should show up at your place if you

00:10:30.560 err at some point in the future, or someone argues you err at some point in the future. And again,

00:10:34.720 if you're going to pick the pick at the mayor's home, then you can't really complain about Supreme

00:10:38.400 Court justices being picketed in the United States or here one day or other

00:10:41.680 politicians. Again, this is a very dangerous road to tread. On the freedom issue, again,

00:10:46.560 look, I have great concerns about the erosion of freedom in Canada, which is why I wrote the second

00:10:51.280 column. And so in the first column in the Financial Post, I picked on the right, said stop acting like

00:10:56.320 the left. In the second column, I said, for those of you who are more liberal, progressive, woke,

00:11:00.640 left wing, whatever you want to call yourselves, who argue, you know, freedom is just a dog whistle.

00:11:05.520 It doesn't have a tradition in Canada. Wrong. It does. We were one of the first countries in the world,

00:11:10.240 pre-confederation to abolish slavery. Governor James Cinco worked towards that end starting in 1791. It

00:11:16.480 was practically abolished by 1820 before the British Empire even abolished it long before the Americans

00:11:21.680 abolished slavery. We have a tradition of freedom from John Diefenbaker, the Bill of Rights that he

00:11:26.560 in Parliament passed in 1960, which was an important milestone. And he restored the right to vote to

00:11:32.080 indigenous Canadians. That was important. Pierre Trudeau, who normally I would disagree with almost

00:11:37.760 everything, especially economically. Pierre Trudeau, for all his faults, understood that civil rights,

00:11:43.680 rights belong to individuals first. They are not dispensed to you by government. That's an important

00:11:48.640 thing to remind his son of these days and others on the left or progressives or woke. We do have a

00:11:54.480 tradition of freedom. Rights begin with the individual. And Pierre Trudeau was no fan of identity politics.

00:12:00.000 He hated nationalism in Quebec. He didn't like the idea that a small collective, you know,

00:12:04.960 like Quebec nationalists or a large collective like Quebec nationalists in Quebec grew over a

00:12:09.200 small collective English speakers. He hated that. He was in favor of individual rights.

00:12:14.080 And he was eloquent in his defense of individual freedom, although I would disagree with him on some

00:12:18.880 other issues. So we have a tradition of freedom in this country, whether it's James Cinco,

00:12:24.560 whether it's Wilfred Lorre, who I mentioned in my column, or even Pierre Trudeau on some issues.

00:12:29.040 That needs to be remembered as well. But I would urge my colleagues, so to speak, in the think tank

00:12:35.120 world or in journalism and elsewhere, not to use hyperbole. Again, if everybody's a Nazi or a communist

00:12:40.160 or a fascist, then nobody's paying attention when a real version of that comes along.

00:12:49.040 We'll be able to call it out when we can. I'm not sure if you're getting me clearly. I think we're

00:12:52.720 having a few connection issues here, but we're hearing you all right. Well, I think I've lost you again.

00:13:10.080 Okay. I'm sorry. I'm just having a few connection issues. So before I let you go, where can we keep

00:13:15.600 up with you? You've got the Aristotle Foundation on the go and you publish elsewhere. Where can people

00:13:20.880 see more of your articles and such, Mark? AristotleFoundation.org, MarkMilke.com,

00:13:26.960 VictimCult.com. So those will all do it, but AristotleFoundation.com or .ca and MarkMilke.com.

00:13:35.120 Those will get you to where you need to go. Excellent. Well, thanks for coming in to talk to

00:13:39.440 us today, Mark. They're always good discussions to keep people thinking, even if we don't always

00:13:43.360 all agree on them. So I hope we can talk again soon down the road. Thank you, Corey.

00:13:50.880 Thank you.

Western Standard - August 06, 2022

Mark Milke of the Aristotle Foundation how the right has to stop acting like the left

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