Western Standard - May 28, 2026


MP Garnett Genuis warns Canada’s MAiD system has ‘gone too far’

Topics
aid coercion instances
Mentioned
Tamara Jensen Trudeau Bill C-63 Garnett Janis Arnold Beerson Viktor Frankl James McLean Carter
＂He has fueled a lot of resentment from people who can't work,＂ Poilievre on Guilbeault's Net-Zero A mission to preserve Canada's Cold War air force history

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27 minutes

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156.47

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4,349

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187

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Private Member's Bill C-260, proposed by Conservative MP Garnett Genius, would prevent federal government bureaucrats from speaking to patients without their consent on facilitated assisted death (MAID), a controversial issue that has been debated in Canada for years.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
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Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
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00:00:00.000 if a member of the public is having that conversation there's a position of authority
00:00:03.600 or trust and the person is not seeking information about uh about facilitated death and the person
00:00:09.760 proactively says well instead of this help you're seeking how about you try death instead and at no
00:00:18.080 point along the way has the government the elected government asked the question has this gone too
00:00:24.000 far. They're always asking the question, how can we go further?
00:00:32.900 I'm Willie Tamten for the Western Standard here in Ottawa on Parliament Hill to speak
00:00:36.460 with Member of Parliament Garnett Genius on his private member's bill, C-260, the Care
00:00:41.540 Not Origin Act, which would criminalize federal government bureaucrats from speaking to patients
00:00:45.900 without their solicitation on MAID. MAID, also known as government-funded or publicly-funded
00:00:51.360 euthanasia, has expanded since it's introduced a few years ago under the Trudeau regime.
00:00:56.760 And today, we're going to be speaking to him on a number of issues related to his private
00:01:01.120 member's bill and made overall.
00:01:03.100 Here's what you have to say.
00:01:04.480 Thank you for your time today.
00:01:05.540 My pleasure.
00:01:06.160 Great to be here.
00:01:06.680 So what specifically would your Care Not Coercion Bill change in the law? 0.58
00:01:11.280 So my bill introduces a new criminal offense that says a person cannot raise maid with
00:01:19.360 a member of the public under certain very specific conditions.
00:01:23.520 It is to prevent specifically bureaucrats, people in positions of authority,
00:01:28.560 from raising euthanasia or facilitated death with those who are not seeking information about it.
00:01:34.900 So if a veteran calls Veterans Affairs Canada, it could be a conversation with CRA,
00:01:39.940 with a parole officer, with social worker.
00:01:42.500 If a member of the public is having that conversation, there's a position of authority or trust
00:01:46.900 and the person is not seeking information about facilitated death.
00:01:52.160 And the person proactively says, well, instead of this help you're seeking,
00:01:56.780 how about you try death instead?
00:02:00.680 That would not be allowed as a result of this bill.
00:02:03.080 And it responds to cases where this has happened.
00:02:05.060 It does not apply to doctors and nurses.
00:02:06.860 It doesn't apply in a case where the patient has asked for information about something.
00:02:12.020 It only applies if those conditions are met.
00:02:14.820 position of authority or trust, not a doctor or nurse, and the patient has not asked for
00:02:20.880 information about it. I think in principle, everybody should actually be able to agree
00:02:25.340 that these instances of aid coercion involving people that are, for the most part, outside
00:02:32.860 of the medical system, involving misuse of that position of trust, most people would,
00:02:38.840 I think, agree that that shouldn't happen. And yet it continues to happen. We continue
00:02:41.860 to hear stories. And it impacts people who are seeking public services that they're entitled to
00:02:48.100 that feel this pressure in those contexts. Why dial it back, though, in terms of
00:02:53.760 exempting nurses and doctors if the patient itself is not requesting that service?
00:02:58.260 Yeah, that's a great question. Simple answer. I am doing the math in this parliament. I'm looking
00:03:05.380 at the fact that it's a liberal majority government right now, unfortunately, not a
00:03:11.260 majority that people voted for, incidentally. But I have to look at Parliament as it is.
00:03:15.620 I have to look at the reality that my own views are not necessarily shared by a majority in
00:03:22.720 Parliament. So yeah, in an ideal world, I would like to establish the principle that
00:03:28.420 facilitated death is never brought up by anyone other than the person themselves.
00:03:36.160 I will say the conduct of doctors and nurses can be regulated through provincial colleges.
00:03:42.160 So we've seen action in Alberta, Bill 18.
00:03:45.320 Bill 18 is an excellent bill, and it includes those kinds of restrictions on the conduct of doctors and nurses.
00:03:53.920 So the exemption does not come from sort of a determination of the ideal.
00:03:57.680 It's just my practical assessment of what is most likely to pass in this parliament.
00:04:03.160 And you think you'll have local support on that?
00:04:05.240 I think we have written a bill that has the best chance of passing in this parliament while still moving in a positive direction.
00:04:12.420 That's what you always try to do, right?
00:04:14.040 You don't want to have a bill that does nothing.
00:04:17.620 And you don't want to have a bill that in the process of trying to do everything can't succeed.
00:04:23.420 You want to find something in the middle that still pushes the envelope but has a good chance of success.
00:04:29.720 I'm not certain that the government will support it, mind you.
00:04:33.620 The initial indications at the first hour of debate were a little bit more negative from the government,
00:04:39.220 which is why I think it's very important for people to contact their MPs.
00:04:43.900 And look, if we are able to pass the bill at second reading, it goes to committee for further study.
00:04:48.560 That provides a venue for people that have been affected by this kind of coercion to speak and make their case.
00:04:53.900 And probably many of those people will make the case for even further strengthening the bill and removing some of these exceptions.
00:04:59.200 But it will be up to those people to make that case and up to the committee to decide at that point.
00:05:04.160 The first step is second reading where we vote on the bill in principle.
00:05:08.240 And there's a lot of room to negotiate over specific provisions after that.
00:05:12.140 But we have to get it passed at that vote at second reading before it goes to the kind of further study and working out the wording stage at committee.
00:05:22.520 What's up to the timing then?
00:05:23.760 So you have a March 2027 deadline for the expansion of MAID.
00:05:29.200 Of course, it's a program that's been around years long and it's expanded ever since.
00:05:34.120 What's the timing behind or the strategy in terms of why you're bringing this bill now?
00:05:39.940 Yeah, so we have two bills before Parliament that deal with facilitated death in different ways.
00:05:45.220 So one is Tamara Janssen's bill, C218.
00:05:48.500 And that's a great bill.
00:05:50.180 It's an excellent bill.
00:05:51.200 I'm strongly supportive of it.
00:05:52.540 And that really reflects what has been a multi-year conversation going on about this issue of facilitated death for mental illness.
00:06:03.920 And the timeline on that one is critical because right now, the way the legislation works,
00:06:10.060 in March, provisions prohibiting facilitated death in the case of mental illness will automatically sunset,
00:06:18.160 which means it's a very strange legislative mechanism that was put in the bill previously.
00:06:22.540 but essentially you'd have the automatic legalization of MAID in the case of mental illness in March,
00:06:28.820 unless there's some legislative action.
00:06:30.380 So Tamara's bill, C-218, tries to address that.
00:06:33.800 And that bill, again, is the continuation of a long-running conversation.
00:06:38.040 It was tabled first, and it will probably be dealt with first.
00:06:41.140 My bill is about introducing a new concept into the conversation
00:06:46.560 around recognizing and combating coercion in the case of facilitated death.
00:06:53.340 So they both relate to facilitated death, but they are different concepts.
00:06:58.200 And of course, they're related in the sense that, I mean, imagine the toxic combination
00:07:02.900 of having coercion and facilitated death based on mental illness, where someone who is facing
00:07:12.300 a mental illness, seeking public services, would have a person in a position of authority
00:07:16.820 suggesting out of the blue facilitated death, that kind of a suggestion would really negatively
00:07:22.260 impact someone dealing with mental health challenges likely. So we have these two separate
00:07:26.000 bills. Tamara's bill will likely move forward first, and my bill will follow at some point.
00:07:36.140 Timelines are not exactly certain, but that's kind of the way we expect it to unfold.
00:07:40.380 Well, we can talk about Tamara's bill later on in terms of the mental health expansion,
00:07:44.400 but I want to revisit the notion of the Liberal government's stance on these matters
00:07:50.520 because, as you know, we're in a minority position.
00:07:52.540 We need Liberal MPs to step up and vote if you want to get anything passed.
00:07:56.740 And looking back just about a week and a half ago,
00:07:59.960 one of your colleagues from Alberta, Arnold Pearson, was at the National March for Life rally,
00:08:05.760 and he spoke in good detail about his belief
00:08:09.580 that the Liberal government is promoting a culture of death.
00:08:14.960 Of course, he is referring to the issue of abortion
00:08:17.420 and another other range of social issues, along with MAID as well.
00:08:22.280 Specifically referring to MAID as perhaps a guiding light
00:08:24.740 of something that even surprised them.
00:08:27.120 So do you share that view?
00:08:30.080 Look, I'm with the Conservative Party.
00:08:32.920 I think what we're offering is on every front, on economic issues as well as on cultural issues and on protecting human dignity, is much superior to what the liberals offer.
00:08:44.720 I think the legacy of the Trudeau government and the continuing legacy of the Kearney government on issues of facilitated death, for example, is very, very bad.
00:08:57.980 um i'm uh i'm also doing my best to be uh constructive in the context of this parliament
00:09:06.040 and um and and all members of our party are trying to do that trying to say okay
00:09:12.340 even in the midst of large areas of disagreement can we find areas where where some common ground
00:09:19.660 is possible um i didn't i didn't put everything that i believe about facilitated death into one
00:09:25.840 bill i tried to put forward a bill that would get some support within the liberal caucus now we'll
00:09:33.380 see if it does i don't know um i would i would rather we're in a situation where we had a
00:09:39.480 conservative government i think we could we could uh um get more done for canadians on a broad
00:09:45.540 spectrum of things um but i think i think it's possible to say both that the legacy of the
00:09:53.440 government on these issues has been very negative and also to say we're going to try to do the best
00:09:58.200 we can in the context where we are. So anything or a bill or anything perhaps that can come out
00:10:03.200 from a future amendment or a future bill on its own, we just discussed off camera briefly,
00:10:07.940 the National Post reported a case where Dr. James McLean evaluated someone for MAID
00:10:16.520 and its importance location. So of course that's off-site from the traditional medical
00:10:23.000 environment uh anything are you looking towards in terms you know addressing in terms of the
00:10:27.720 environment of where that process happens not just the person involved but the environment itself
00:10:34.040 yeah it's a good question and i think let's just put it in the context of the larger issue of the
00:10:38.800 assessment that's supposed to happen um because when facilitated death was legalized and i i've
00:10:46.040 been in problems since 2015 so i've been here all the way through the process um the framework they
00:10:52.160 established was any two doctors signing off constitutes approval. There was no consideration
00:10:59.140 of kind of the nature of the examination that the doctors had to undertake to come to those
00:11:04.540 conclusions or how many doctors could assess them before you found two who agreed. Because there's
00:11:10.400 a big difference between, you know, person met with one doctor, the doctor agreed they met the
00:11:16.000 criteria, then they met with another doctor and that doctor agreed they met the criteria. There's
00:11:19.320 There's a big difference between that and someone who consults dozens of doctors, all
00:11:23.920 of whom says no, and then they find two people representative of much more fringe opinion
00:11:31.180 who agree to sign off because there's a spectrum of opinion within the medical profession.
00:11:35.600 There are a small number of people who have a real kind of extreme activist mentality
00:11:40.760 on this.
00:11:41.880 So if you have cases of people from out of province or people who aren't even examining
00:11:46.840 a patient, checking off that someone's met the criteria, I don't think that is really
00:11:54.020 consistent with what a lot of people would expect, which is that you have kind of an
00:11:58.200 objective evaluation.
00:11:59.940 So frameworks were proposed at the time where you might have a sort of quasi-legal assessment
00:12:12.220 process where an individual or a panel would review the case and that they would provide
00:12:18.040 a feedback that you couldn't just alter by shopping around to other individuals.
00:12:21.760 I think between the Carter decisions coming into effect in the passage of legislation,
00:12:28.160 Manitoba had an interim framework that involved this kind of a process.
00:12:32.340 So there's different processes we could have done.
00:12:34.180 The process we have now allows a kind of doctor shopping to take place, which can include
00:12:40.840 can include anything just two doctors signing off so this is where you get and I don't I don't know
00:12:47.400 the specifics of that case yet it's just come out at the time we're recording but if the
00:12:52.320 implication is that there's there's a kind of a public place people sitting down over coffee and
00:12:57.760 then that's supposed to qualify or satisfy the qualification I mean that that seems very bizarre
00:13:02.820 to me but it but it's the the most important reforms we need to look at aren't so much about
00:13:09.020 the place where it's taking place. It's about the fact that you can go to two dozen assessors who
00:13:13.180 say no, and then find a couple more who say yes, and then it's not majority opinion. It's just the
00:13:18.540 fact that you found two people who would sign off. So would you agree with the premise that
00:13:23.100 MADE has expanded faster than its safeguards? Well, I think that there were so many things
00:13:30.340 about the framework that were deeply flawed from the beginning. There's two different
00:13:34.960 predominant attributes of any system of facilitated death.
00:13:39.880 One is the eligibility criteria, who's allowed to get it and for what reason.
00:13:45.740 And then the second is what the structures of approval or assessment are.
00:13:51.920 And I think the biggest issue in Canada is that we have no effective or meaningful processes
00:13:59.060 for verifying that the intention of legislators is actually present in the system.
00:14:06.720 So, I mean, even on the mental health issue, so there have been lots of cases where maybe
00:14:19.480 there's a mental health issue as a contributing factor, but somebody is determined to be
00:14:23.700 potentially facing imminent death as a result of various factors, and therefore they're put
00:14:32.820 into track one. You have what they call track jumping, where someone is in track two. That is
00:14:38.660 that they're not considered terminal, but then they're moved over to another track for reasons
00:14:45.140 that seem arbitrary. But the question is then, what is the enforcement mechanism? What's the
00:14:50.700 oversight mechanism. And nobody's ever been charged in this country for abuses related to
00:14:57.820 facilitated death. So if you have a spectrum of opinion, but you've got some people with very
00:15:05.880 extreme ideas that are pushing the envelope in terms of what the intent of the legislation was
00:15:11.940 or wasn't, and you have no meaningful mechanisms for enforcement and holding people accountable,
00:15:16.060 I think that's a huge problem.
00:15:19.600 And I basically gave this speech at the time back in 2015.
00:15:23.640 I said that we need to have mechanisms to ensure that what is supposed to happen or is not supposed to happen under this legislation is actually happening.
00:15:33.840 And we're way off base from that.
00:15:36.460 So I think there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed within the system.
00:15:40.000 I'm tackling one with Bill C-260, Care Not Coercion Act.
00:15:43.760 that is the the made coercion piece i should mention carenotcoercion.ca is our website so
00:15:50.860 i'm trying to tackle the coercion piece there's the mental health piece i think there's also
00:15:55.340 questions around what the oversight and review mechanisms are as well let's talk about the
00:16:00.460 guiding light that brought you to this care not coercion bill or perhaps one of the examples that
00:16:05.000 you've also mentioned the famous veteran affairs case yeah can you answer some professionals on
00:16:09.120 details of that case in terms of your view and do you believe that it was an isolated incident or
00:16:15.760 what do you sense is out there that we don't know today well sure i want to give um uh give real
00:16:20.380 kudos to blake richards who's been our veterans affairs shadow minister for a long time uh and
00:16:27.260 he's a member of parliament from um the airdrie foothills area with um just an incredible amount
00:16:34.720 of compassion, goodwill. He works with veterans, he works with families dealing with loss and
00:16:41.280 on some of these other really important issues. So in terms of his work on veterans,
00:16:48.240 it was through his investigation and the work of the Veterans Affairs Committee that it's
00:16:53.920 come out that there are many, many cases where a person has called Veterans Affairs Canada
00:16:59.120 asking for assistance things they're entitled to in one case it was a home stair lift
00:17:07.920 and they've had the person on the other end of the line has suggested facilitated death instead
00:17:16.320 in one case there's a a gentleman was asking for help with stuff in his house and
00:17:21.920 and he was offered maid and initially he didn't know what that was he thought they were offering
00:17:26.560 him a maid, someone to actually help clean his house. So you get the bizarre sort of
00:17:32.320 pseudo-language that is invented here. But anyways, there have been many of these cases,
00:17:41.860 and the position of the government has been that this shouldn't happen, and that it was one case
00:17:47.140 worker. But the further work and investigation of the Veterans Affairs Committee just makes that
00:17:54.900 explanation harder and harder to believe there are many veterans in different parts of the country
00:18:03.140 men and women who have reported conversations of this nature caseworkers as i understand the
00:18:11.700 system are usually assigned based on region and you have a caseworker of the same of the same
00:18:20.260 gender. So the diversity of people who have testified to this happening certainly suggests
00:18:26.600 that there are broader systematic issues. But what I've said about my bill, C-260, is that,
00:18:31.420 look, even if you think it's not very many cases, what I'm hearing from veterans is that it's
00:18:35.580 actually a lot of cases. But even if you think it's not very many cases, just pass the bill then.
00:18:41.440 The bill is agnostic on the number of cases. It just tries to prevent any instances of
00:18:47.740 coercion related to facilitated debt.
00:18:50.660 So let's talk about the nature of MAID and how it's seen in Canada and even
00:18:55.960 outside of Canada as well. I mean, if you look at even some media on an
00:19:00.840 international level, whether it be media focused on social issues or just
00:19:04.860 international media overall, BBC has covered the fact that MAID is the leading
00:19:10.000 cause of debt in Canada. And overall, there's a lot of questions in
00:19:15.900 terms of what that is. What do you think is, in a nuanced sense, what do you think is driving,
00:19:21.400 besides of course the expanded eligibility, the inauguration of the program in frankly more
00:19:28.680 recent history, what is the drivers? Like why are so many people opting for MAID?
00:19:36.180 Yeah, I mean the information we have indicates that numbers are continuously going up in this
00:19:45.380 country. Further, you mentioned the international context. Canada has become a real cautionary tale
00:19:51.960 in international debate. Certainly, if you talk to politicians across the spectrum, on the right
00:19:59.380 and on the left in other countries, generally there's a lot of shock about what exists now
00:20:07.080 in Canada. And various international disability rights bodies have really highlighted Canada's
00:20:14.540 failure to uphold the rights of people with disabilities in light of the facilitated death
00:20:19.060 system in particular, track two. It's sad to see what's been happening, the lack of protections,
00:20:25.760 the lack of affirmation of the dignity of all people, the challenges people with disabilities
00:20:32.540 are facing, even trying to access public services and having death posed to them instead. So these
00:20:41.320 are all issues we need to address at a policy level. I mean, I think there are other kind
00:20:51.860 of social challenges that may be contributing to these numbers. I'm a big believer in the
00:20:59.400 ideas of Viktor Frankl, the importance of meaning to human well-being. And I think having
00:21:09.400 a society that affirms the universal dignity of the human person and the meaning of human
00:21:17.760 life, even in the midst of suffering, is very important and it's sometimes lacking.
00:21:26.320 We should not allow ourselves to become Benthamites in believing that life is just about pleasure
00:21:33.220 over pain. The essence of human life is about meaning and purpose. And it is possible, it
00:21:43.360 is very common for people to have meaningful lives in the midst of suffering. So I don't
00:21:50.040 know that we always do a good job of conveying that message.
00:21:54.780 By we mean the government, the liberal classes of all?
00:21:57.940 I mean, there often is this message from elite institutions that human dignity is negotiable
00:22:06.000 or it's dependent on experience, whereas I believe that human dignity is inherent in
00:22:11.240 the human person, that human life has dignity, has meaning, has value, and that people who
00:22:17.860 are in the midst of suffering can identify and find immense meaning in their lives and
00:22:26.000 their ability to contribute to others and the community around them in constructive ways.
00:22:32.560 So I think the discourse around meaning could be developed and enhanced in ways that would
00:22:40.800 provide solace to people who are navigating points of suffering in their life.
00:22:46.800 So I think there's a few different elements of it.
00:22:48.560 But look, the biggest problem with the facilitated death system is that we, at no point along the way has the government, the elected government, asked the question, has this gone too far?
00:23:05.700 They're always asking the question, how can we go further?
00:23:08.980 And the baffling thing to me about this is, like, that's always the direction of questioning.
00:23:14.860 instead of saying like their question is always is there one case of a person who
00:23:21.260 who maybe should have been able to die who wasn't instead of asking the question
00:23:26.880 what are we going to do about these many cases of people that were pressured to die
00:23:31.400 or or or told directly or indirectly that their life wasn't valuable when what they wanted was
00:23:38.360 actually to be able to continue and what they needed to hear was an affirmation of their human
00:23:42.460 Do you think, besides there being drivers that have to do with social and economic factors,
00:23:49.080 now we get this data annually in terms of how many people are opting into MAID and successfully
00:23:53.920 receive the service.
00:23:56.900 Is there anything telling about that number besides the fact that it's increasing?
00:24:01.540 Is this a question of our health care coverage, our economic status, our, I mean, is it almost
00:24:07.720 kind of a report card mechanism that if MAID is up and up and up, then certain inclinations are
00:24:14.860 occurring in society on a parallel basis? Well, I think it raises lots of questions. I think,
00:24:21.480 I mean, you've alluded to this. There have been cases where people who have been seeking other
00:24:26.720 kinds of help and support have pursued MAID or been pressured to pursue MAID because of their
00:24:34.540 inability to access other kinds of services and supports. I think, you know, I think there are
00:24:44.740 a lot of different factors that can be contributing to that number. But like my bill is in a way
00:24:55.860 narrower than that. It's just trying to say that those who are not seeking facilitated death
00:25:03.360 shouldn't have somebody in a position of authority proposing it to them.
00:25:10.620 I think that's something at least we should all be able to agree on.
00:25:15.240 The number could suggest a lot of different things,
00:25:19.260 but at a fundamental level, if we at least could agree in this parliament
00:25:24.740 that people should be able to access unrelated public services without pressure,
00:25:30.060 I think that would go a long way for those people in that situation.
00:25:33.360 Imagine that in April of last year, your party won the election.
00:25:37.760 You formed a government, either yourself or a colleague is the minister of health
00:25:41.640 and control the other responsible ministries.
00:25:45.000 Where would you guys draw the line on MAID?
00:25:47.000 I mean, in terms of protecting the vulnerable, but also respecting freedom and civil liberties.
00:25:52.600 What would be your program?
00:25:53.660 Well, our party has always had and will always have free votes on these kinds of issues of conscience.
00:26:00.860 So I think there would be a wide consensus around some of the problems.
00:26:08.400 There would be some aspects of the system that there would be differences of opinion within our party, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
00:26:18.020 Is that like an East-West divide in terms of the more diverse of PC versus that?
00:26:21.780 I think there's wide variation.
00:26:23.800 I mean, you can, I can't remember off hand, but if you look back over the votes we've had on these issues, there has been diversity of opinion reflected, not just in sort of blocks, like people from here think this, no, it hasn't, you can maybe say in certain cases there are trends, but there's been diversity of perspective on the issue.
00:26:46.400 Now, also, I think perspectives will reflect emerging evidence.
00:26:55.760 And we've seen emerging evidence of some of the significant problems.
00:27:02.900 So, you know, I think what would happen in the case of a conservative government?
00:27:07.680 I mean, I think you can see areas where there is consensus and areas where there's maybe a diversity of perspective.
00:27:13.140 and I think that would then be reflective
00:27:18.260 in votes that would be taken on the issue.
00:27:21.500 But a parliament with a different configuration
00:27:23.360 obviously would have a much stronger chance
00:27:25.620 of passing reforms that would provide
00:27:29.880 more protection for vulnerable people.
00:27:32.120 Well, that's all my questions.
00:27:33.220 Thank you for the time.
00:27:34.040 Well, thank you.
00:27:34.700 Thanks for coming in.
00:27:35.800 Well, there you have it, folks.
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