One on one with Jay Hill, interim leader of the Maverick Party
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Summary
Jay Hill, interim leader of the Maverick Party, joins me to talk about his party's campaign strategy and what it means to be a regionalist political party in Canada. We also talk about the challenges the party has faced in the lead-up to election day, and how they plan to address them.
Transcript
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Okay. I'm joined today by the leader, interim leader of the Maverick Party, Jay Hill. Thank
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you. You've been on my show before, but not during election time. I know these are busy
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times for everybody right now, especially in this final week. So I'll start with something easy. Just
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how's the campaign been going? I think pretty well. I mean, our biggest challenge, and we've
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known that right from the beginning, Corey, is exposure. I mean, we're a party that's,
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we're about two days away from our first anniversary. So we're very much still in our
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infancy. And so that's been a huge challenge for us, especially during these COVID restrictions,
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when we don't know from one day or one week to the next, whether we can hold these small town hall
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meetings or not. So as I say, our biggest challenge has been exposure, but as the name gets out there,
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and as people are paying more attention, as we get nearer to the actual election day,
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hopefully people are considering Maverick as an alternative.
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Yeah. Well, and you're the old school reformers. I was a young reformer at the time. I'm not young
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anymore. But, and you're modeling this in much of the old way of the reform of the West once in
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a dedicated Western party. But you did make it clear, it's not a secessionist party. This is,
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I guess, regionalist perhaps might be the best term for it?
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Well, I think that we, at least in the initial stages of the development of Maverick,
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what we're looking for is to emulate, to some extent, the Block Quebec law.
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Their strategy in the House of Commons, as you know, Corey, is very simple. And they are very
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outspoken about it, that if legislation or a motion before the House is deemed to be good for Quebec,
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they speak in favor of it, and they vote in favor of it. And so really, what we would like to see,
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at least in the initial stages of the growth of Maverick, is to elect a few MPs and send down to
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Ottawa and operate very much in that same way. Only, obviously, if legislation is deemed to be
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good for Western Canada, in the best interest of Westerners, they would support it.
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Yeah, well, and I've watched all of the debates, it was a torturous thing, though there's
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some things to be found and taken from them. I mean, one thing I've heard from other people with
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Yves-Francois Blanchet was, at least, as much as he might be maddening with how he is,
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he's unapologetic. He says, I'm here for Quebec, I speak for Quebec, and he basically said in the
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English campaign, I don't really care about the rest of this, I'm just here for Quebec.
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Unfortunately, it's just the nature of our country, though, if our regions want to stand up for
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ourselves, that's kind of the attitude we have to start taking.
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Well, and that's the big difference. You mentioned my history with reform and then Canadian Alliance,
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and obviously, eventually, serving as a cabinet minister with Stephen Harper in the Conservative
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government. And I guess what I've been saying as I've been traveling around Western Canada during
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this campaign, is that I'm a slow learner. And it's taken me quite some time, most of my life,
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in fact, to learn that the system does not work in the best interest of the West. And so what we've
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tried to do is design a political party now to, as they say, basically copy the model that the
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blockadec law has been using in the House of Commons, that we recognize that all the national
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parties, and I would include the PPC in this, once you run nationally, from coast to coast to coast
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in Canada, and that's the old reform model of the West wants in, the minute you do that, you have to
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appeal to where the most votes are. And then you water down your message to appease where the majority
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of the seats and votes are in Central Canada. We're not doing that, we're going to continue to
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we're going to start from running in the West, and we're going to stay running in the West so that
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we can properly and accurately reflect the best interests of the West.
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Well, that's good. I wanted to clarify that, because I remember that from the 90s, actually,
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I think it was Bruce Stubbs who was running the Guardians United Against Reform's demise,
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and then all of the messiness as the Canadian Alliance got formed, and eventually we just seemed
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to come full circle. Now we're back at the start of the circle again, but have we learned
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from the last exercise? Like, we're not going to repeat that, it's been very clear on that.
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Well, I certainly hope so, Corey, that certainly that's my intent in launching this a little over
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a year ago with Wexit Canada, and only because that party had already applied for eligibility under
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the Elections Canada rules. And then we immediately started to morph it into what became the Maverick
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Party Party, as they say, about a year ago. And our intention is not to repeat the mistakes of the past,
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where we go down to Central Canada, where we end up, you know, splitting the vote down there,
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electing Liberal governments by default, as we did with Jean Chrétien in the 90s. We don't want to see that happen again.
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Obviously, we believe that the West has not had proper representation, and it certainly isn't going
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to under Errol too long. Yeah, well, it's an interesting role that I mean, I like the pizza
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Parliament model in some ways, you can at least get a lot of different voices for such a regionally
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diverse country. And they still can't be functional if you accept that. But what Jagmeet's saying in the NDP,
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they know they're never going to form government. So they model themselves, though, to be influential
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for their ideology and just get that corner and be able to do so. But I just like to compare that,
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say, I mean, ideologically quite different than Maverick. But you could still hold a corner and
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represent that and be cooperative in Parliament and get the job done.
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Exactly. And, you know, the advantage that I have as the interim leader of Maverick is that I do have
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this wealth of experience having spent 17 years in the House of Commons. And the majority of those
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years in caucus officer positions where part of the job description is to negotiate with the other
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parties and build relationships where you can try to get things done for Canadians. So I have that
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background to bring to the table as we try to launch and grow this new political party.
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So in some sense, you've mentioned that, though, you are the interim leader. And that's something
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that some people have wondered, like, I know with short timelines, it's difficult,
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you certainly can't deal with that during an election. But is there going to be then an AGM,
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a leadership race, that sort of thing pretty soon, shortly after the election?
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Well, unlike the PPC, we did have our first convention, it was a virtual convention out of
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necessity, in early August, here in Calgary. And we had our delegates, members that became delegates
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paid the fee, support and confirm our governing council, our constitution, our platform such as it
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is, considering that we're only a year old, our twin track mission statement, all of that was confirmed
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already at a convention on the 7th of August. So we move on from there. And specifically about
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my interim leadership and the leadership race that hopefully will come in the near future, what
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we've seen is that we've had a tremendous representation during this election campaign
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by a lot of people that are considerably younger than myself, Corey. And so what I'm looking for is
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six or eight potentially candidates that will at least consider running for the leadership of the party.
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Once we get through this campaign, perhaps through the winter, we get things normalized or as normalized
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as they're going to be as far as the growth of Maverick, then we can look forward to a leadership
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Yeah, well, and then leadership races can be very valuable party building exercises. They can also
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tear a party to pieces if they aren't done right. It's a dangerous thing. But as Prime Minister Trudeau
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threatened, if he doesn't get a majority, chances are there's going to be another election within less
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than two years. So people know, I mean, the doldrums between elections can be really difficult for new parties.
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I think we won elections all the time. But having an opportunity with one pending again would be
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Exactly. Yeah, if it was four years, I think that, you know, a lot of people become discouraged
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and potentially would at least walk away in the interim and refocus on their personal lives and
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and trying to pay the bills and put food on the table as they should always anyway. You know, so I guess
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we'll see where it goes. Hopefully people will stay engaged and especially as you say, all the polls
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are currently indicating it's going to be a minority either in O'Toole or Trudeau minority government.
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Probably if it's a Liberal minority, it'll last a bit longer, a Conservative minority a little bit
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shorter, just depending on the balance and what kind of deals can be cut to support and gain the
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Yeah, the Liberals are much more inclined to cut a deal with the NDP than the Conservatives would.
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Yeah. But, you know, there have to be some times. The public, I don't think, would be very thrilled
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with the confidence about hitting them six months after all of this. Something I'm certain you must
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be hearing a lot of though, and that's something every alternative party cures about and we certainly
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suffered under is a cure being worse than the disease scenario, vote splitting. You're drawing from
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a traditional Conservative base. People are worried that that would lead to potentially getting
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Liberal members in seats that they typically wouldn't. How can you address that?
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Well, we've developed a strategy and fortunately for Maverick, we've been able to do that because
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we are in our infancy and we only intend to run in the West anyway. There's 104 seats in the four
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Western provinces. We identified early on that there was about 44 seats where we could safely run
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and the people in those ridings could be assured that there's only one of two outcomes. Either they
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re-elect largely their incumbent Conservative MP or they elect a Maverick member of Parliament.
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And because we believe very strongly in running against the strongest held Conservatives in Western
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Canada. So that's our sort of our 29 candidates that we have running with the exception of one out on the
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island of British Columbia, what I refer to as Fantasy Island, out there on the left coast. We have, the
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other 28 are running in very strong Conservatives ridings where they win by such wide margins,
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Corey, that there's no way in which a Liberal or an NDP or Green or PPC, any of the national parties
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in opposition to the Conservatives could come up the middle, as they say, and win those ridings.
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Yeah, well, one of those is Banff Airdrie. We've been watching it closely, just because it's an
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interesting exercise to watch with alternative parties. We had Tariqin, a fantastic candidate,
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you guys are running up that way, as well as Nadine. Like this is a strong,
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strong Conservative base area, which is why it's been so targeted. Something that was interesting,
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I watched Derek Sloan's kick off, he parachuted over here. But he was introduced by a few year old
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compatriots there, the old guard reforms, you know, Art was there, Rob Anders, Eric Lowther.
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What's going to happen with Derek Sloan? Do you think he's building a party base out here? Or is
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this going to be a one off? Because he does have some significant, I guess, traditional supporters
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behind him. But it does seem to be kind of an unusual move. Well, unusual to say the least. I mean,
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anybody's guess what was the tipping point of for why Mr. Sloan decided to come out and challenge
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in Alberta, in Western Canada, as opposed to staying where he lives in Ontario and running for
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his own seat there. If you look at what happened with Jody Wilson-Raybould, who just launched her book
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yesterday. I mean, she chose to run in her riding in Vancouver, she ran a very strong campaign in 2019.
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And it's very difficult for an independent like Mr. Sloan to win. But normally, they have their best
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chance where they're best known. So I haven't talked to Mr. Sloan, I don't know why he made that choice
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to come out to Alberta. And as you say, parachute into BAM Peridry. I personally believe that it's
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going to be very, very difficult for him to attract more and more than just a core support in any riding
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other than his own back in Ontario. So we'll just have to see. That's the great thing about democracy,
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that people have the final say. He's got the right to come out and throw it out there.
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Exactly. There's no residency requirements in federal law about running. There's been people
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suggest to me, partly because of Mr. Sloan and his notoriety, that perhaps we should consider such a law
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where you actually have to live in the riding. That's great. You know, I don't have a strong feeling one
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way or the other, Corey, but it's out there now. It's been raised. And perhaps that's something that
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should be considered or debated. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, it's just so little impact typically on the
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parachute. As you said, we don't see very many independents. Lindsay Adda did that a long time
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ago, but he didn't do it by moving. He was already well established in riding before he did.
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Which is sort of the normal thing. Same with a former roommate of mine, Chuck Cadman. He lost the
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conservative nomination until he turned around and ran as an independent and won because he was very
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popular in his constituency. Yeah, but if he'd have bounced out and ran in Saskatchewan, it wasn't
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going to work out. No, not at all. So getting to some policy-wise and some of the pressures that
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we're seeing that on the federal conservative front, that's what a lot of us are frustrated with.
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Aaron O'Toole has very much been bending over backwards to get the central Canadian support. He's
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flip-flopped on the carbon tax. He's flip-flopped on the repealing of the gun law from Trudeau as well.
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It sounds like he's going to give an unqualified check to Quebec for daycare even, but I don't
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recall him offering that for the West. What's the response to how badly watered in my view
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the Conservative Party has been getting at chasing the central votes? Well, I think there's no doubt
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that he's being branded by columnists and commentators like yourself, Corey, quite accurately
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as a red Tory, you know, returning the Conservative Party to its supposed roots under, say, a Joe Clark
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type leader. I think that that's driving a lot of people crazy in Western Canada because they see
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the pandering to central Canada that we've always noticed, but it's much more evident under Mr. O'Toole
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for some of the issues you just said. I mean, I find it very depressing, actually, that all of our
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Conservative members of Parliament in Western Canada, for example, have not said a word about how they feel
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about Jason Kenney's equalization referendum. They haven't indicated to their supporters, to their
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constituents, whether they intend to vote for it, or against it, and why. Something like that is of
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immense importance to Albertans, especially, but also people in Saskatchewan and up in Northern
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British Columbia, in my writing, former writing, and yet the Conservative MPs are silent, and it's
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pretty obvious why they're silent, which is that they know that their leader and their whip, who is
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just a little to the north of us in Van Ferdrie, Mr. Richards, would be very unhappy if they actually
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came out in support of deleting the equalization principle from Canada's constitution. You'll recall
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that Pierre Trudeau, Justin's father, put that, enshrined it in our constitution. So, Mr. Kenney's
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trying to make a statement with the referendum next month, and yet, our Conservative MPs have said nothing
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about it. And so, increasingly, we noticed that about a lot of issues. And, you know, so we're
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not getting accurate representation, and that, at its core, is really what Maverick's all about.
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So, getting on to representation with, of course, the big thing with reform back in our days was
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Triple E, the Senate. We wanted to reform it. We also, and that's something that's getting forgotten,
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and nobody's talking about, we have a Senate election approaching. That's right.
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So, something that Premier Kenney has done, which has been frustrating and unfortunate,
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at least, at the moment, only federally aligned candidates can run in that election. It used to
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be provincial. Will the Maverick Party be fielding a candidate or candidates in this upcoming Senate
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election in the municipal race coming up here soon? Well, we haven't put a name forward yet,
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Corey, but we're certainly open to it. We've been completely focused, as you can imagine,
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very limited resources. And when I say that, both financial and human resources, we don't have the
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thousands of volunteers we'd love to have for this campaign. So, we've been very much focused
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on the federal election, which is, you know, culminates on Monday. So, we'll certainly, it's
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going to be an issue that the new council that was affirmed on August 7th, will be grappling with,
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I'm sure, in the days immediately after this election, is whether to challenge with a Maverick
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candidate in that election, or I would call it a selection, I guess, of a candidate for
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appointment to the Senate. Yeah, well, we've had a long spread out tradition of at least trying,
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and some get in there, and it'd be nice to see more in, you know, from the unfortunately short term
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of Stan Waters, or on to Burt Brown was great in there, and Doug Black just recently stepped aside.
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So, I mean, most of our people say it's a waste of time, and it's due to all, but no, some do get
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through, and I still feel a little better having had some exercise of choice in the matter than
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just being appointed by whoever's in power, whether Conservative or Liberal.
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Exactly, and as we know, a lot of these things when it comes to governing are very slow,
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incremental steps, frustratingly so for many people, but if you're going to, you know, put that
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effort into constitutional change, and the election of Senators, of course, would be a constitutional change
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in our country, I applaud Alberta for being persistent, and the perseverance Alberta has shown
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in keeping putting forward names for Prime Ministers to appoint rather than using some other selection
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process. Yeah, well, we are stubborn, if absolutely nothing else, and I hope we remain so.
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So, I mean, given seats, given things that divide with things, though, is there, I mean, this is
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election time, you can't really consider, but would there be consideration of cooperative talk with
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some of the PPC members after this is over, things like that, because we need to kind of build a unified
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base for reform, to use the old word for it? Well, of course, we are open, the Maverick Party,
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our number one principle of our eight standing principles that anyone can find on our website at
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maverickparty.ca. Our number one principle is that everyone's welcome within the Maverick Party,
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despite, you know, past partisan activities or alignment with other parties, we want anybody
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that believes that the West has always been getting a shafting from Central Canada, treated like a colony,
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that it continues. One of our mainstay industries, our oil and gas industry, has been under attack
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certainly increasingly since Justin Trudeau took over in 2015. So, the last six years have been
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horrendous for our oil and gas industry, our energy industry, and we want to see a turnaround in that.
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So, you know, I guess when I reflect on this, you know, irresponsible, unnecessary and unwanted election,
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and I know you've remarked similarly, Corey. I cannot but think that somehow we're missing a lot of the
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primary issues that Canadians, and in particular Western Canadians, should be seized with. And we
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already talked about equalization, we should be talking about carbon taxes, we should be talking about,
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in the news today, our inflation rate in Canada hit 4.1%, the highest since 2003. And I can't be the only one
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that's noticing the increased cost of groceries when I go to the grocery store. And, you know,
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there are tough times coming for Canadians, and in particular Western Canadians, because so many of
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our federal policies discriminate against Western Canada, discriminate in particular against Alberta
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in our energy industry. And here we sit. And throughout this election campaign, a lot of these things are
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not even being discussed. And that's a deep, deep concern for myself, because the reason why I came out
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of retirement and started this effort with a small group of other people is out of concern for future
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generations. I think you and I are at that age, me more so than you, because you're way younger, but
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but where we can survive, okay, through whatever comes, I think, you know, we're not raising children
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any longer. Yeah, exactly. But our grandchildren, and even the generations that come after them,
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inflation is being driven by rampant, unfettered government spending. And all of the three main
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parties are talking about spending billions, if not hundreds of billions of dollars more. And that's
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only going to fuel inflation, which is then going to fuel interest rates, which is going to infuel
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higher taxes, which is ultimately going to fuel greater poverty. And it's important that Canadians
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consider this during an election campaign. Well, yeah, and then the next thing we see is when they
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realize, oh, my God, the books are a mess. Well, look at Alberta, they got all that oil and gas, you know,
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all of a sudden, we'll be popular, as far as coming in and taking it, not letting us develop it. I mean,
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again, we keep going in circles, and we still will need that voice for standing up for the West,
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even if O'Toole becomes the next Prime Minister. I mean, something I've said before, a lot of times,
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is when the Liberals screw the West, it creates a lot of alienated people. But when the Conservatives
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screw the West, you create separatists, because we expected it out of the Liberals. It's when the
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Conservatives do it to us that we lose it. And if we don't push back against kind of our own preferred
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party, or at least hold a voice of conscience, they will drift to that Central Canadian view every time.
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Yeah. And of course, case in point, history does repeat itself. And back in the reform days,
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of course, it was a majority Conservative government under Brian Mulroney, that fueled Western
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separatism, that fueled alienation that ultimately led to the reform birth and growth of the Reform Party,
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and the West wants in. Well, we've tried that, we tried that, and nobody more so than myself and
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people like Stephen Harper. We've tried that, and it doesn't work. And so we've got to recognize it
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doesn't work and do something different. Well, great. So as the election goes, we've got a few
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days left. Where can people find more information about you guys, find out if they've got a local
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candidate, how to support the candidate, the party, all that good stuff? Well, it's all on our website,
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Corey, at www.maverickparty.ca. It's completely open. It explains our mission statement, our twin
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track approach to either fixing, you know, a fair deal for Western Canada. Within Confederation,
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we put forward five amendments to accomplish that, amendments to Canada's constitution, or track B,
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which is to increasingly build a foundation for independence. And independence could mean
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anything on a broad spectrum. It could mean, you know, basically copying what Quebec has done for
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itself, carve out a nation within a nation for Western provinces. And it could mean all of those
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things that go with that, control of your own immigration, your own pension plan, greater control
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of healthcare administration without interference from the Canada Health Act. And you can go down a long
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list, our own police force. So it could mean a lot of things, different things. And ultimately,
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should they choose in a provincial referendum under the rules of the Clarity Act, it could mean
00:23:47.920
a completely separate sovereign nation. But all of that remains to be seen. It's in the future.
00:23:53.200
In the meantime, I'm certainly holding out hope that people will look to Mavericks in these 29
00:23:59.920
ridings and look to elect a true Western representative. Great. Well, is there going to be an election
00:24:06.240
gathering by any chance actually, or are you guys still planning that? Well, I think that it'll probably be
00:24:11.680
more independent based on the candidates and their campaign teams, rather than some big gathering.
00:24:18.400
Of course, we're very respectful of this whole business with the COVID and, you know, the need to
00:24:25.200
be extremely careful for a lot of people. I just saw something today that shows that the hospitalizations,
00:24:32.240
apparently, I think it was in the Western standard, which is, you know, always right on top of the issues
00:24:38.320
of importance to Western Canada. Now, I think it was in a Western standard article, I was just reading
00:24:43.600
this morning with my morning coffee, that, that apparently vaccinated and unvaccinated people,
00:24:50.640
both 50-50 as far as hospitalization. So that's pretty worrisome for both sides, both those that have
00:24:56.240
made the choice, and we support freedom of choice on this issue, that have either chosen to be vaccinated
00:25:03.280
or not vaccinated, but it doesn't seem to be making any difference right now with this, this variant
00:25:08.560
D that's sort of run away with, with the situation, especially in Alberta right now.
00:25:14.960
They're crazy times. I know that was the stats for the people getting hospitalized, but a lot fewer
00:25:21.360
in general were getting infected who were vaccinated versus not. So there just still seem to be some
00:25:26.560
benefits, just perhaps not as much as we all kind of hoped it would be.
00:25:30.000
But I, I return that, you know, I, it's, it's certainly in our view, and that's why we put
00:25:36.320
freedom even in the slogan, uh, in our name, uh, with the Maverick party is that we do believe that
00:25:42.160
it's a fundamental freedom for people to make those kinds of choices for themselves.
00:25:46.000
Great. Well, thank you very much for coming in. It's always good talking with you. We're looking
00:25:51.040
forward to election night in less than a week from now. And, uh, certainly we'll talk again after then.
00:25:55.760
I certainly hope so, Corey. Thanks for giving me the time on, on your show.