Western Standard - May 15, 2022


OPINION： For this writer—let's put the cards on the table—abortion is wrong


Episode Stats

Length

16 minutes

Words per Minute

177.08864

Word Count

2,899

Sentence Count

149

Hate Speech Sentences

1


Summary

In this episode, I sit down with the author of a recent column on abortion and discuss his thoughts on the abortion debate. We talk about the importance of having a conversation about abortion, and how we can learn to talk about it again.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 I guess maybe I'll kind of get you to summarize and, you know, part of it ties in with your
00:00:04.720 personal views and also you're something of a communication specialist and you're talking about
00:00:08.940 the importance of communication, I guess, in a sense, and on this particular issue and the
00:00:13.480 ability for it. Can you kind of summarize what your column was about?
00:00:18.360 Yeah. So the last one was just basically about the importance of us learning how to talk again.
00:00:25.220 You know, it seems I grew up in, I guess we're all saying this these days, a very different kind
00:00:33.500 of Canada, one that seemed a lot grittier and a lot more eclectic in a way, at least as far as
00:00:43.980 the public conversation went. And, you know, certainly on this issue, and I'm sure we could
00:00:50.980 talk about a whole bunch of others. You know, it seems like there's, there's, there's one
00:00:55.960 narrative that's, that's allowed and, and arguably that, you know, we're losing the, the ability to
00:01:03.680 have difficult conversations. You know, I, I teach in university and, and man, you know, the, the
00:01:13.960 amount of kind of trigger warnings and so on that you have to give on, on any sort of difficult or
00:01:20.020 uncomfortable topic, um, at least on one side of the spectrum, you know, um, uh, I'm, I'm Christian,
00:01:28.060 uh, and, and even, right. Even when I say that, I'm kind of like, yikes, right? Because, because
00:01:34.540 you're used to, to having to, um, sort of give, give trigger warnings for one side and not so much
00:01:40.360 to get it. But, um, anyway, you know, on the, the sort of conversation imperative, you know, arguably
00:01:48.520 in the public sphere, we're only as, our, our democracy is only as healthy as our conversation
00:01:54.060 is. And, um, you know, lots of people have said this, I quoted Juergen Habermas, um, but, uh, uh,
00:02:02.160 you know, when we lose that ability to have a dialogue and when the dialogue is especially co-opted
00:02:10.000 by, um, people with political, uh, with, with, uh, economic agendas, what have you, you know,
00:02:18.100 as like Habermas are saying, we're, we're cooked, um, if, if we, if we can't do it. So I, I, rather
00:02:24.700 than trying to dive into the, the abortion debate, um, I was trying to hit it at a bit of a different
00:02:31.200 angle, just to say, this should be on our minds, um, whatever side you're on and talk
00:02:37.200 about it. And equally concerning to the issue is the fact that we can't talk about it. So
00:02:43.900 maybe we should try going there first.
00:02:45.700 Well, that's just it. And, and I mean, it's, it's, you know, as opposed to the issue itself,
00:02:50.200 I mean, that's a fodder for a whole other shows with people, but the, the ability to communicate
00:02:55.260 on it and differ on it, but still respect the other person's right to do it. I I'm very libertarian.
00:03:00.640 I am not a man of faith. I would rather the things just be left alone and unregulated,
00:03:06.780 but I never for a second want anybody not to have the ability to argue against that,
00:03:12.640 to be able to say comfortably, I don't agree with you. My faith says this, uh, you know,
00:03:19.760 my bill and we've gone away from that. We have, we get canceled, we get shut down and it's not
00:03:24.320 healthy. And, and if it starts on something as, as, as divisive and it's, you know, hard as abortion,
00:03:28.900 that was easy because a lot of people don't just don't even want to talk about it, but it will
00:03:32.860 extend to other issues. And, and we can never say that the case is closed. We can't.
00:03:37.040 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I, I'm with you and I voiced this at the top of the column that,
00:03:42.640 you know, on, on, on, I, I have pretty strong beliefs, uh, about abortion and, um, you know,
00:03:51.540 that for me, I ultimately there's, there's not a lot of wiggle room, but I, as, as, you know,
00:03:57.780 a person of faith and with knowing many people of faith, I'm also on the outs with a lot of them
00:04:03.380 because I don't believe in coercion either. Um, so, you know, the VAX mandate is, is the,
00:04:09.860 is the obvious example, but, but there's others. So, so while I think this is wrong, I also think
00:04:16.520 it's wrong for me to force someone to do something or to not do something. Ultimately that, that puts me
00:04:23.140 largely in a pacifist camp too, which is another taboo in, in a lot of parts of that, um, subculture,
00:04:29.760 I guess. So, so yeah, you know, I, and, and this is the thing I, I, you know, I think that a lot of,
00:04:36.580 there's actually a lot of wiggle room and, and I'm going to write about this some more hopefully
00:04:42.480 coming up, but, you know, when, when the narrative gets so shrunk, um, that, you know, you can only
00:04:51.120 kind of say this, uh, and not all this other stuff that you have questions about, um, you know, like,
00:04:57.720 is it, is it abortion at one month? Is it abortion at like one week prior to birth, right? Like if
00:05:03.480 you're on one side or the other, you almost can't even go there. Um, and, and I think we probably
00:05:08.840 could find a lot of commonality if we could actually go there, right? If we could actually
00:05:14.480 ask, ask the questions that, that get sort of pushed aside in the effort of, of streamlining
00:05:21.080 the, um, the narrative. Yeah. Well, and I mean, there's a mental attitude and I think it's gotten
00:05:28.940 worse, you know, with social media and divided discourse and very polarized this and this, and
00:05:34.280 it's, it's, I'm right. You're wrong. You're right. I'm wrong. And we've forgotten that, that
00:05:39.680 basic idea of, I can very strenuously disagree with you, but fully support your right to be
00:05:47.900 wrong. And we've lost that where you're wrong. Thus, you shouldn't even be able to say that.
00:05:53.280 And that's a big problem. And that's happening a lot. And it's not a left, right thing. It
00:05:57.240 happens with people when they get too heated up on either side of an issue, they try to shut
00:06:01.260 up the other side rather than, uh, debate them. And it's, it's getting worse.
00:06:05.120 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, I teach communications and I, and I can't help
00:06:12.680 but thinking that, that, that those who, you know, want to control the airwaves, um, are, are, are the
00:06:20.120 leaders of this kind of, this kind of assault upon, you know, nuance and complexity and, and, um, you
00:06:27.080 know, the more common sense questions that, that bug all of us.
00:06:30.980 Yeah. So did, uh, the, the March for life event was, uh, you know, it's an annual one.
00:06:36.320 It's a big one. Uh, did you attend that in Ottawa this year?
00:06:40.280 Yeah, I did. I did. Um, and, uh, you know, that, that was, that, that was a really
00:06:47.000 interesting, um, I mean, how do you encapsulate it? It was a really interesting case in point where,
00:06:53.480 you know, it, it, it, it seemed like, um, there was one side that, uh, this is the Planned
00:07:01.140 Parenthood side that was very, um, uh, it was very clear, uh, you know, the points they were
00:07:09.020 making, they were trying to shut down the speakers, my body, my choice. And, and, and it
00:07:13.440 was, it was, it was definitely much more, um, angry than, than some of the leading media
00:07:21.840 outlets would, would have you believe. Um, you know, and then on the other hand, you, you
00:07:26.880 have people that are, you know, quite eclectic. I, I was really surprised that actually like
00:07:33.200 every age, uh, every size, largely Catholic. I, I, um, I, I, I would guess, um, and I'm
00:07:40.740 not, um, but that was fine. Um, yeah, you know, that, that side, it just didn't seem as angry,
00:07:53.580 I guess.
00:07:55.080 Yeah. Well, and, and again, it takes two sides. I mean, avoiding the anger and the, the extremes
00:08:00.260 can come from either side. I, I, I, you know, there, there's a lot of attacks personally,
00:08:04.280 or even physically at some of the protests from counter protesters at the same time that there's
00:08:08.460 been some, some crazed extreme, uh, anti-abortion activists who've, you know, shot doctors in past
00:08:13.180 years and things like that. But those are the outliers, you know, if, if we could stick to the
00:08:18.260 middle with most people, uh, I, I mean, the issue is clearly never going to be settled, but that also
00:08:24.000 means then we're going to have to keep an ongoing discourse moving on it.
00:08:27.480 Yeah, I think so. Um, and, and, you know, that there were, uh, there were signs of that,
00:08:36.980 uh, yesterday. Um, you know, there were people who would, who would try to walk up to the sort
00:08:42.800 of counter protest and, you know, engage and, and, and that sort of thing. Um, there was a lot
00:08:49.220 of talk, uh, of, of people, um, recognizing the motives that this, this one woman, it was,
00:08:57.240 it was very interesting. She, you know, she had had abortion 25 years ago and, um, she had
00:09:03.460 felt guilty about it and so on. But, you know, in, in her, in her statement, she was, she's
00:09:08.220 like pointed over and she said, you know, um, pro-choice people do this out of love too.
00:09:16.820 And love for freedom, love for their own bodies and, and actually love for children. And I actually,
00:09:23.220 it was kind of looking around wondering, you know, how that would fly. Um, but it, you know,
00:09:28.220 it, it seemed fine. Here was a woman who had, who had lived, lived the issue, uh, in a way.
00:09:36.220 And, and I, you know, that kind of, you know, olive branch, uh, reaching, even if, you know,
00:09:42.220 I mean, even if it's tough and even if you're going to make your own peers raise an eyebrow,
00:09:49.220 um, I, I think it's still, it's still great, uh, for the conversation, you know, we all do
00:09:55.220 things because we think we're doing good and right. Um, and, um, good recognize that kind of stuff.
00:10:02.220 Yeah. Well, and as I was saying earlier, you know, the right to protest, the right to express,
00:10:07.220 whether it's this or anything else, it's always under threat. There's people saying we've,
00:10:10.220 we've got to crack down on it and we've got to understand it and particularly progressives.
00:10:14.220 I mean, a lot of advancements from progressive causes came, they started from unpopular protests.
00:10:19.220 They were the ones on the streets. They were the ones protesting against the Vietnam war.
00:10:23.220 They were the ones protesting for civil rights for minorities in the United States
00:10:26.220 and getting cracked down on by the state. Don't, you know, we got to remember that you've
00:10:31.220 still got to allow views that you feel are unpopular to get out and express themselves as well.
00:10:35.220 And I think that's getting forgotten by a lot of people.
00:10:38.220 Maybe I'll ask you, I mean, apart from media all the time, where do you think that's coming from?
00:10:44.220 That push to shut down legal protests?
00:10:50.220 I think it's coming from people, and this is just pure theory on my part, and it goes through the media.
00:10:56.220 It goes, but it's really stemming at the government's level of such an ideological confidence that you are right,
00:11:02.220 that you're absolutely right, and that the ends justify the means.
00:11:06.220 They even know that they're doing something wrong, but they feel it's so important to get their cause through,
00:11:12.220 get their goals accomplished that it's a secondary thing to step on the right of free expression
00:11:19.220 because in the longer run, it will be better for everybody.
00:11:22.220 I think it's a delusional point of view, but I do think, and maybe it's an unconscious point of view with some of them,
00:11:28.220 but that's my theory as to why we're seeing such a push.
00:11:31.220 This particular liberal government is more ideologically driven, I think, that we've seen probably in our lifetimes.
00:11:38.220 And when you're driven by ideology rather than fact, then you start to do things such as set aside rights in order to accomplish your goals.
00:11:46.220 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:11:49.220 You know, any mediator will tell you, and I said this in my column, that, you know, when you come into a conflict context,
00:11:58.220 if you come in on your moral high horse, you're cooked.
00:12:01.220 It's not until you recognize that, you know, whether the person across from you is a parent,
00:12:09.220 or whether, in this case, the person across from you is Canadian.
00:12:12.220 And, you know, my family's lived here for 200 years, like, I have something invested in this, but so do you.
00:12:17.220 And until you can accept those commonalities, all the moralizing is going to be up to anyone.
00:12:26.220 Yeah, and the threats come from a lot of directions.
00:12:28.220 Again, I still think it stems from the government, but you mentioned media, and we've got a problem going on there.
00:12:33.220 But we've got a government that's very intent on making the media beholden to the government.
00:12:37.220 And it's through internet controls, it's through subsidies, it's through a number of levels.
00:12:41.220 And media outlets, again, whether unconsciously or even consciously, they might say, I'm not going to cover that because we just don't want to shake the tree where our money's coming from.
00:12:48.220 Or we don't want to run that column because it's just going where we know it's going to upset the people who determine whether we're official media or not.
00:12:57.220 Or social media platforms might say, again, we're going to cut off that discourse over there because it's inappropriate.
00:13:04.220 And again, I think a lot of principal media members, even if they're progressive ones, would like to see open debate, but they're scared to now.
00:13:13.220 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:13:16.220 Yeah, I mean, you lose your lunch, right?
00:13:23.220 Yeah, and I, you know, apart from, maybe from all of us, there's an interesting independent media landscape in Canada.
00:13:32.220 And, you know, apart from all of us just kind of voting with our feet, you know, it's going to be a difficult one to fix.
00:13:42.220 Yeah, well, we're growing and we're trying, we're getting it out there.
00:13:45.220 And that's why I appreciate, you know, you coming on talking to me today and the column you wrote.
00:13:48.220 And you said you have another one coming up pretty soon?
00:13:51.220 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I wrote on yesterday, largely because, you know, it was a different view from where I sat.
00:14:02.220 And so we did a little narrative thing.
00:14:04.220 It was a very interesting day.
00:14:07.220 And again, I'm not a Catholic.
00:14:09.220 And, you know, when you see young people quietly, very, you know, quietly and solemnly voicing their concerns.
00:14:19.220 And I'm a father of teenagers and, you know, somebody who was quite moving.
00:14:24.220 So, yeah, I wrote a little bit on it.
00:14:26.220 Yeah.
00:14:27.220 Well, I'm looking forward to that.
00:14:28.220 And actually it just brought me to another thought and an anecdote, but getting back into the mid to late 90s.
00:14:33.220 And I got to admit, I grew up in the eighties, I was somewhat intolerant, particularly with people in the LGBTQ community.
00:14:39.220 And I had a girlfriend at the time who actually took me out to a couple of pride events in Calgary.
00:14:43.220 And they were pretty small back in those days, but actually it really, it was good for me.
00:14:49.220 I mean, this was an event of free expression with me getting around people outside of my regular comfort zone, getting to know people.
00:14:56.220 And it forced me to reevaluate my thought.
00:14:59.220 And if they've not, you know, and again, speaking of that, you know, 30 years before that, they would have been arrested for holding a pride parade.
00:15:06.220 We're not for events like that.
00:15:07.220 People like me wouldn't have been able to interact and broaden my thought.
00:15:11.220 So when we shut down things like March for Life and that again, we're not having anything productive.
00:15:15.220 This is not going to help.
00:15:18.220 Yeah, I agree.
00:15:19.220 I agree.
00:15:20.220 And I love that you mentioned that the personal side of it, you know, the same thing with the LGBT stuff.
00:15:25.220 You know, it wasn't until I had friends that were wrestling profoundly with this.
00:15:34.220 These are my best friends.
00:15:36.220 And you don't have a choice to sort of slough it off as a political issue or, you know, and when you have that personal, to me, that's where it's at.
00:15:45.220 And we can't let anyone get into that space between us.
00:15:50.220 I often say to my students that conversation is all we have.
00:15:54.220 And so we need to fight to keep that ground.
00:15:58.220 Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:59.220 Well, again, I appreciate you coming in.
00:16:01.220 I'm looking forward to your column on what you observed at the event the other day and other columns to come in the future.
00:16:06.220 All we can do is keep working on it.
00:16:09.220 And again, well, we're not backing down over here.
00:16:12.220 So thanks again for coming on to talk to me today, Trevor.
00:16:15.220 And I hope we get to talk like this again soon.
00:16:17.220 Absolutely.
00:16:18.220 Yeah.
00:16:19.220 Good seeing you, Corey.
00:16:20.220 Thank you.
00:16:21.220 Thank you.