Western Standard - Pastor Steve Richardson on Christian civil disobedience

00:00:00.000 had there's a historical precedent for that it's when when men start to do unlawful things

00:00:06.000 um in the name of um well it was my duty i was told to that's frightening

00:00:30.000 nadine mulwood correspondent for the western standard joined this morning by

00:00:36.560 pastor steve richardson from tillensburg ontario and uh he is a pastor with faith presbyterian

00:00:46.400 church you grew up as a missionary kid pastor uh richardson that's right that's right yeah i spent

00:00:53.440 a few years as a kid in africa with my parents and then we came back to canada my dad is currently

00:00:59.280 serving as a as a pastor but i have have a ministry certainly in the in the genealogy my grandfather

00:01:05.840 was also a missionary um many years ago fantastic now you reached out to me because you felt that it

00:01:14.640 was necessary to talk about um an article that was published in one of the alberta papers here

00:01:22.160 nonetheless um corbella had written defiant alberta pastors defame and blasphemy jesus with their

00:01:30.480 actions now not everybody likes to be on camera and are usually shy away why did you feel it was

00:01:37.040 necessary to speak up well first of all we we are at a point now where i mean uh there is no secret we

00:01:44.160 are open publicly and um the police are aware of that on our side of things but also uh as a as a pastor

00:01:51.200 seen uh fellow pastors get attacked by the community by the authorities and then to top it all off by

00:01:57.840 their own colleagues by fellow churchmen uh felt someone had to say something wow and why do you think

00:02:05.280 that uh colleagues in particular are lashing out at these pastors who are defying the covid restrictions

00:02:15.600 and still continuing to meet um some of them now in secret well i think i think they're embarrassed by

00:02:22.640 them um and i and i can't speak for what's in the hearts of these men but i i think some of them i

00:02:28.320 think their consciences are stricken i think they feel guilty that they're not doing the same and so

00:02:32.800 the safe the easiest thing to do is to attack now of course i don't know uh matheson myself i don't know

00:02:38.720 his own particular reasons but the comments he made were uh from a pastor i found rather shocking

00:02:46.960 i want to go into that article a little bit and address some of the comments that were made

00:02:53.040 so you know he pastor matheson actually was stated as having say i think it gives christianity a bad name

00:03:01.840 um from what i'm seeing in particular today there's almost two different camps even forming

00:03:09.520 inside of the christian movement there are those kind of more institutional church um

00:03:17.520 teachings and then there's more the evangelistic kind of getting back to the bible teaching are you

00:03:24.400 seeing that is is you know what is christianity today yeah it's interesting because uh i'm

00:03:31.360 presbyterian tim is baptist uh james is baptist uh arthur i'm not sure uh arthur's connections but um

00:03:39.760 it is interesting that you've gotten men from a variety of different denominations who would have

00:03:44.720 differences but we are in agreement on certain things and and um i found that some of the the churches

00:03:52.480 that have remained open typically are are churches that take the bible very seriously but i i certainly

00:03:58.640 do see that kind of a divide as you say um in in christendom there has been something of a divide

00:04:04.240 all along um but we're seeing it obviously very clearly now uh with the the lockdown measures and

00:04:09.280 then um the churches that are choosing to stay open in spite of those lockdowns yeah and so let's talk

00:04:17.120 about that because you know in inside of this um how exactly would remaining open and serving your

00:04:26.080 community give christianity a bad name well in one sense i understand where he's coming from because

00:04:35.280 i i know when we did it um here as our church stayed open as a community became aware uh there was

00:04:41.040 a lot of pushback a lot of anger in the community and um and i think if you were to to survey the

00:04:47.680 the communities where tim and james are you would find a lot of people who are quite livid about what

00:04:52.880 he's doing but ray matheson's uh observation um is one that uh it betrays from my from my understanding

00:05:04.480 it betrays a misunderstanding of christianity christianity has never been um popular when

00:05:11.360 with the world and so i mean jesus said as they hated me they will hate you so we're going to be

00:05:17.280 like jesus we're told very clearly that we're going to be we're going to suffer persecution um jesus

00:05:22.960 wasn't all that popular so the idea that christianity is in kind of a popularity contest is just a gross

00:05:30.000 misunderstanding of the bible and of christianity itself um but i would say certainly yes i

00:05:35.200 understand where he's coming from there there are a lot of people who are unhappy with what james and

00:05:39.840 tim and myself and others are doing now ray matheson pastor matheson actually came out and said that

00:05:47.920 you know we should honor the police and you know the government officials um and and he did make some

00:05:56.560 quotes you know from the bible um or what his perception of that is do you want to address

00:06:03.200 that a little bit because i i look at this and i i i think that right now what i'm seeing you know god's

00:06:08.960 law and government's law are not necessarily i don't think they've ever been aligned no that's right i mean

00:06:17.280 the reality is is they're they're usually at odds and and right now we're seeing that very plainly um

00:06:23.760 what's odd and more from my perspective is that christians aren't seeing that that the church

00:06:28.240 isn't recognizing that on the whole um but the comments about the police honoring the police i

00:06:33.920 would say first of all that uh christians have typically been some of the strongest supporters

00:06:38.720 of the police uh we teach our kids from the beginning i mean this is pretty commonplace we teach

00:06:43.520 our kids to respect the police as a kid i grew up uh i'd see the uniform and i felt safe we've never had

00:06:50.560 an issue with the police uh when there were calls for the police to be defunded it was uh churches were

00:06:55.680 among the voices saying uh support the police um but when police start illegally arresting uh pastors

00:07:02.800 for carrying out their ministerial duties then uh for uh where is the honor in that there is no honor in

00:07:09.040 that so um so it makes little sense to me to say well we need to honor these men when these men are

00:07:15.120 are are carrying out orders that are unlawful um and it's it's frightening to me that we are basically

00:07:23.920 saying well as long as they have orders it's okay we we have there's a historical precedent for that

00:07:29.680 uh it's when when men start to do unlawful things um in the name of um well it was my duty i was told

00:07:37.120 to that's frightening i would agree and when in this article in particular it seems that pastor

00:07:46.560 matheson really got up uh i guess took offense to the fact that that arthur now arthur is a different

00:07:52.720 kind of pastor you know and and it's amazing that we lump um james coats and arthur poloski together

00:08:00.160 a little bit because the two of them have taken very very different approaches one i would compare

00:08:05.680 almost to saint peter another saint paul you know the lamb and the lion and pastor coats is very much

00:08:12.560 a lamb he you know turned himself in he uh you know spent 35 jail days in jail and no charges have

00:08:22.480 been laid against him i mean this is significant because when now you do bring in the law um and it

00:08:29.920 has been found that he was unlawfully detained and unlawfully obstructed um in doing his duties you know

00:08:38.960 this is a little different from arthur poloski who's more outspoken you know he is from poland he's

00:08:44.320 seen this firsthand and the outcome you know so to to compare the two on equal footing is a little bit

00:08:53.520 i think unfair but absolutely i mean there's no question their approach is different and and my

00:09:00.560 approach is probably more like uh going to be more like uh tim or a james i i'm sympathetic with the way

00:09:06.480 they've done things but at the same time um i'm really hesitant to criticize an arthur when um uh

00:09:14.640 he's being treated the way he has and he has the the background that he does so i'm i'm thankful that

00:09:20.240 guys like him are sounding the alarm we need someone to say something yeah it's a different approach but

00:09:26.400 you know it the intent is the same and that's to bring attention to you know the unlawfulness and to

00:09:32.400 what's actually happening and you know the potential outcomes of where this all leads right yeah

00:09:39.760 so you know i also want to bring up you know in the article it talked about you know how christ was

00:09:46.320 this gentle you know he didn't you know yell and scream and persecute his or torn his tormentors i

00:09:52.960 think was the the term that they used um and he approached this with love and grace but the

00:09:59.680 government is coming at this purely from a perspective of fear and force um how do you

00:10:06.160 find the balance yeah well on one hand first of all i'd say nothing by the about the conduct of james

00:10:13.360 or tim from what i've seen has been anything but gracious and loving um but then i would add that

00:10:19.840 there is another side of jesus that uh the that the pastor is ignoring so on one hand he was uh tender

00:10:28.880 hearted and kind there's no question of that but as he dealt with religious leaders who are hypocrites

00:10:34.240 he used words like a brood of vipers um he uh he's he's the the story that we're all familiar with we

00:10:41.680 should all be familiar with is the one where jesus goes into the temple and he's so angry that he fashions

00:10:47.520 a whip and then he uses the whip to overturn tables and chase out uh those who are selling merchandise in

00:10:53.760 his house and uh so this is a very different understanding very different picture of jesus

00:10:59.280 than the one that matheson has painted um he he he is one who is holy he is he is kind he is merciful

00:11:06.880 um but he is angry with the wicked every day

00:11:11.280 yeah and and so i want to bring up because they actually talk about he says blasphemy

00:11:17.600 i think this is a word that has just been hijacked a little bit um as to its true meaning um because

00:11:26.080 you know false teaching that's blasphemy idol tree that's blasphemy you know but for some people

00:11:33.600 and forgive me but you know they go oh my god and they say oh that's blasphemy but is that truly

00:11:40.240 what it was intended i mean what what's your definition of of blasphemy yeah so blasphemy on

00:11:48.080 its very basic uh uh understanding if you take it in the most simple form it is taking god's name in

00:11:55.200 vain and so anytime somebody uses that his name irreverently lightly that is that is blasphemy and

00:12:02.640 of course goes beyond that we're called to reverence god his name his word and his works and when men are

00:12:08.560 irreverent um then that is that is by extension blasphemy when a minister of the gospel is carrying 0.89

00:12:16.560 out his god-given duties and calling his people to worship in obedience to god's commands um that is

00:12:22.640 the furthest thing from blasphemy just because the world doesn't like it um it's astonishing to me that

00:12:28.160 a christian could suggest that because people are upset by it that therefore it must be blasphemy

00:12:33.280 because it's because the community is is not thrilled and the media is not thrilled and the

00:12:38.800 government's not thrilled therefore that's blasphemy that's just completely upside down

00:12:43.520 all that matters from a christian perspective is what does god think uh if we have his approval that's

00:12:49.280 all that matters and so there's there was a point made in the article and that's something else that

00:12:54.960 probably worth touching on but uh the idea that um uh the principles of scripture are are not being

00:13:01.440 opposed by these regulations is utterly staggering in my mind that that that a minister of the gospel

00:13:09.040 could say that they're they're not uh uh imposing upon um biblical principles is is uh incredible to me

00:13:19.360 well one of the stories that i i always shared with my daughter and with people was um you know how

00:13:26.560 significant uh christ put an emphasis on those who stopped others from coming to him and he did that

00:13:35.680 with the children don't don't stop the little children right let the little children come to me

00:13:40.960 when you know you have the adults going no no no no you know keep them away and and he was adamant that

00:13:47.440 you know this was the ultimate sin was to stop people from from coming to him and i i see a little bit of

00:13:55.520 that story in what's unfolding um right now in front of us because you know you've got people now who

00:14:03.680 are pastors and and it seems that the church is dividing um somewhat over this issue and who's right

00:14:12.560 and who's wrong um it's kind of irrelevant but how do you how do you make an impact and and how do you

00:14:22.160 resolve some of these these issues when you know because it back in the time you know when you looked

00:14:27.920 at the jewish faith you know they rejected christ as as the messiah and you know he did lash out quite 0.60

00:14:35.040 harshly in instances against their leaders he didn't mince words yeah jesus was was certainly very uh plain

00:14:44.000 speaking he spoke the truth um i i think that when when you have um there's an imbalanced view right now so

00:14:50.240 the the view is okay though here's the world's definition of what love is and since these men are

00:14:56.400 not meeting or fitting that definition therefore they're not being loving therefore they're not being

00:15:01.760 christ-like but as we look at and you just touched on this in the life of jesus uh he certainly was well

00:15:08.000 aware of diseases and um as you read through the gospels you find that the people were allowed access to jesus all the time

00:15:16.240 uh and they they they pressed in upon him they were allowed to touch him and his whole ministry was one where

00:15:24.080 apart from seasons where he went away to be alone in prayer was one where where the people had access to him

00:15:30.080 and so in the church uh we've always functioned that way for centuries the church has functioned in such a way

00:15:36.400 that people have access to the church we we there's there's sometimes a little bit of upset and the part of some when the church does something called excommunication when we

00:15:46.240 remove people from the membership over church discipline issues uh what's interesting about

00:15:52.080 what's happening now is that we have almost this mass excommunication we have all these people who are not

00:15:56.880 allowed to come to worship who long to be in the worship who long to be uh sitting in a sense at the feet

00:16:01.760 of jesus and they're not allowed to be um not because jesus said they can't but because uh the premier

00:16:09.040 of this province or the other robin said they can yeah there's been an interesting meme that's gone

00:16:14.160 around and it highlights you know what jesus would be doing in a time like this and what it said you

00:16:19.520 know he wouldn't probably be wearing a mask he wouldn't probably be you know hiding at home um he'd be

00:16:26.000 out amongst his people and uh i've i've had i like to read the comments because it's not the memes that

00:16:33.120 interest me it's the comments and where people are at in their psychology and around this and so many

00:16:38.480 people are so fearful um that i don't think they're necessarily thinking clearly but in your opinion

00:16:44.720 what would jesus be doing right now in this time would he be double masking and staying at home and

00:16:50.880 abiding by the rote rules or you know would he be out practicing his his ministry well satan is the father of

00:16:58.480 lies and jesus is one of pure truth he would not live by lies and and so there's no question in my

00:17:09.200 mind that he would not wear a mask um and because the mask is a is a symbol of a lie um and and certainly

00:17:18.000 he would be among the people absolutely there's all kinds of one another commandments in the new

00:17:21.840 testament that many christians cannot fulfill right now because they're listening to the government

00:17:27.200 but if they would take up their bibles and just simply act on their bibles they would find that

00:17:30.960 they they do have to be among the community they have to get out there there needs to be fellowship

00:17:36.240 together there needs to be prayer together worship together and so on so yeah i'm i have no doubt in

00:17:42.080 my mind that if he were here um he wouldn't be very popular yeah it it seems to be the trend this uh

00:17:49.920 dispopulated um you know mother theresa um you know and people think well you know covid but i mean

00:17:57.360 at the time of christ there were lepers there were all sorts of diseases and we didn't have treatments 0.95

00:18:02.480 um at that time for those diseases so they were you know i think a lot more scary in some regards and

00:18:09.440 the fact that you know they they were not treatable um and they were you know very deadly in a number of

00:18:16.400 different respects whether you were excommunicated from your family and sent to live you know in

00:18:21.600 isolation or in a leper community or and then you have mother theresa who you know lived among the sick 1.00

00:18:28.800 and you know against a variety of different illnesses and diseases so where where do you think all this

00:18:36.960 ends because we're seeing a lot of christian persecution and you know here in alberta in

00:18:42.320 in particular we've had mosques that are operating and we haven't seen anybody speak out or and i don't

00:18:50.480 and please forgive me like i think every religion has the right to practice um their faith um this is

00:18:58.720 not about picking and choosing but it seems that the government has cited that you know one can operate

00:19:05.840 without harassment but another can't yeah it's troubling isn't it i i don't know i mean it it ends

00:19:13.120 when people say enough it ends when people stop complying um i talk to people sometimes who are against

00:19:19.040 masking um but they they put the mask on um in order to make it easier to when they go shopping

00:19:27.600 if we don't like masks we want masks to go away we all need you to stop wearing them

00:19:32.160 um the the challenge has been that there's been too few voices speaking up too few that are willing

00:19:38.080 to sort of go to the wall like it's like a james coats or a tim stevens uh even in the church if all

00:19:43.520 the churches would open half the churches would open uh this would go away pretty quickly uh but but as

00:19:50.000 long as people are willing to comply we're we're going to i think see things uh not get better but worse

00:19:55.520 and it is a bit troubling isn't it to see to think what what is the long-term impact going to be not

00:20:00.880 just upon uh churches but upon the the entire economy it just it's um we're living in a in a

00:20:09.200 troubling time mm-hmm and you know uh matheson quoted actually saint paul's letter uh to the romans

00:20:17.520 and he wrote everyone must submit to the governing authorities and uh you know but then he was also

00:20:25.760 quoted in here as as saying that the church must also rebel against authorities and he points out

00:20:32.480 martin luther king jr and william wilberforce and references the civil rights movement what

00:20:38.480 i truly see happening today is somewhat of a civil rights movement but yet he's you know saying that

00:20:46.400 it's okay for martin luther king because i think maybe he can look back in history and see as opposed to

00:20:52.640 looking at the warning signs of where this leads if we don't necessarily take a stand now what will

00:20:59.440 it look like in two months six months two years from now absolutely yeah there's no as hindsight

00:21:07.280 is 2020 it's so much easier to look back and say well this was this was wrong and this is what ought

00:21:12.320 to have been but just to be men who know the times and you can look at this current situation and and

00:21:17.600 and analyze it accurately it's it is uh but there's a great deal of deception we've been exposed to

00:21:23.040 uh a media that is continually uh hammering home certain messages and and uh a certain point people

00:21:29.840 get sucked into all of that but romans 13 even romans 13 it's fascinating to me how that has been used by

00:21:38.080 uh so many today um the the text itself qualifies that submission that first of all the minute the minister

00:21:46.400 the magistrate the the government the authority is supposed to be a terror to evil and a rewarder of

00:21:55.120 good so if you can show me that it is evil to gather for worship then um you've got me with romans 13 but

00:22:02.160 romans 13 is clear even in its context and then of course the apostle paul who wrote that then has spent

00:22:09.360 uh time in multiple prisons and was eventually executed for non-compliance for disobedience to

00:22:16.240 the civil authorities so clearly the apostle did not understand that to mean that uh whenever

00:22:22.720 the government asks us nicely we have to obey and the idea that's floating around that because they're

00:22:28.480 not going after christians because they're say they're christians uh that therefore it's not

00:22:33.440 persecution uh is is uh is also uh i think a wild idea uh i think about daniel in the in the old

00:22:40.960 testament a man who was supposed to stop uh just for a season he was he was not to pray to his god

00:22:47.920 and of course daniel went ahead and did it anyway when we tell our children the story of daniel in

00:22:52.560 the lion's den and how god honored him and protected him and then what do we do when the government says

00:22:56.560 well just for a little while uh which has become not a little while but for a little while we want you

00:23:01.280 to stop uh gathering for worship we say okay no problem um and and the reality is whether it's in a

00:23:08.640 church building or in a barn or on a field the church must gather that isn't there is no church

00:23:15.280 if if it is not gathered and i think that's the key it's uh you know he talks about big buildings and

00:23:22.400 we can do this online but you know community is not shared virtually community is shared you know um

00:23:31.040 person to person face to face for the most part and we're seeing such an impact on you know mental

00:23:36.720 health not only in our children but in in people you know grown adults as well um depression and

00:23:44.160 and mental health issues and that's right suicides and i mean this is a part that the church really

00:23:50.400 plays a big role absolutely unity i we've grossly underestimate the impact of of the church upon the

00:23:58.000 health of the nation for sure and um you know we as we discussed ourselves as a church what do we do

00:24:04.320 we're uh we knew we had to gather now we could have chosen to to meet somewhere other than the

00:24:09.760 church building so no one not james tim archer as far as i know uh or here in ontario jacob myself and

00:24:17.120 others none of us are saying it's about the building we're saying it's about gathering the

00:24:21.520 problem of course is that it's just as illegal for us to meet in someone's home as it is to meet in the

00:24:26.080 church building and if we meet in someone's home who gets charged the host so if we want to

00:24:32.960 protect our people and gather the safest place to do it for the people is the church building

00:24:38.400 and that's some of those things are just not being recognized uh by men like mathis and i they're they're

00:24:44.240 not uh um taking the time i don't think to consider uh what it is we're trying to do when we meet in a

00:24:51.440 church building yeah this is not just about defiance this is about honoring you know your role as a pastor

00:24:57.920 and and the role of of christianity and you know the god's law that's right that's right absolutely

00:25:06.320 so if you had a message you wanted to deliver um to christians everywhere what would that message be

00:25:14.080 well we've got to gather uh we have to to to gather um we have the the clear biblical command god has told

00:25:21.280 us the very first and great commandment is to love him with all our heart soul mind and strength and we

00:25:25.600 can't do that if we don't gather for worship and um there's a lot of fear out there fear of the

00:25:33.680 disease fear of the government fear of the community um but but jesus has told us very clearly that we're

00:25:41.120 to take up our cross and as christians we make our boast in the cross of jesus christ where he

00:25:50.160 lay down his life in our place to bear our sins so so that we could be forgiven so that we could be

00:25:57.040 saved so this this is this is the the the son of god uh who enters the world in order to take our place

00:26:06.640 as our substitute bearing our sins to save us and um we are called in response to live lives that are worthy of

00:26:16.400 that high calling and to imitate him by taking up our cross and sometimes our logic is like peter's

00:26:21.840 we you know there's an episode in the gospel of matthew where he uh jesus is talking about his upcoming death

00:26:28.320 and peter loves his master he loves jesus and he doesn't want him to die and so he rebukes him and jesus

00:26:34.160 says get thee behind me satan and he rebukes him because and he says you're savoring the things not of god but of man

00:26:41.120 but of man and this is what the church is doing today in this nation they're savoring the things

00:26:48.080 of man not of god christ is worthy and and so his people must gather to worship him

00:26:55.760 what a beautiful place to end the interview so thank you pastor richardson for taking the time to

00:27:01.840 share your views and your thoughts and um i wish you luck and and i hope that uh i know you've been

00:27:08.320 fined and uh have been charged as well in ontario um you don't come across as a an irrational you know

00:27:16.400 highly erratic man you know it's uh you just seem passionate about you know continuing to do the work

00:27:24.640 that you were called to do and um i hope that the message is is being heard that you know for for the

00:27:31.360 sake of all the pastors especially here in alberta i believe alberta is the only uh province and

00:27:38.160 the i i think canada is the only country that is actually imprisoned uh pastors oh yeah through

00:27:44.320 all of this we're well it seems like we're well ahead of of uh many other nations in that regard but

00:27:51.600 yeah no christ is is worthy fantastic well thank you so much for joining us nadine welwood for the

00:27:57.840 the western standard um thank you for watching thanks

Western Standard - May 23, 2021

Pastor Steve Richardson on Christian civil disobedience

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