Pastor Steve Richardson speaks out on a recent article written in a local newspaper about defamatory remarks made by a pastor about a group of pastors who continue to meet publicly even as the church is under lockdown.
00:00:00.000had there's a historical precedent for that it's when when men start to do unlawful things
00:00:06.000um in the name of um well it was my duty i was told to that's frightening
00:00:30.000nadine mulwood correspondent for the western standard joined this morning by
00:00:36.560pastor steve richardson from tillensburg ontario and uh he is a pastor with faith presbyterian
00:00:46.400church you grew up as a missionary kid pastor uh richardson that's right that's right yeah i spent
00:00:53.440a few years as a kid in africa with my parents and then we came back to canada my dad is currently
00:00:59.280serving as a as a pastor but i have have a ministry certainly in the in the genealogy my grandfather
00:01:05.840was also a missionary um many years ago fantastic now you reached out to me because you felt that it
00:01:14.640was necessary to talk about um an article that was published in one of the alberta papers here
00:01:22.160nonetheless um corbella had written defiant alberta pastors defame and blasphemy jesus with their
00:01:30.480actions now not everybody likes to be on camera and are usually shy away why did you feel it was
00:01:37.040necessary to speak up well first of all we we are at a point now where i mean uh there is no secret we
00:01:44.160are open publicly and um the police are aware of that on our side of things but also uh as a as a pastor
00:01:51.200seen uh fellow pastors get attacked by the community by the authorities and then to top it all off by
00:01:57.840their own colleagues by fellow churchmen uh felt someone had to say something wow and why do you think
00:02:05.280that uh colleagues in particular are lashing out at these pastors who are defying the covid restrictions
00:02:15.600and still continuing to meet um some of them now in secret well i think i think they're embarrassed by
00:02:22.640them um and i and i can't speak for what's in the hearts of these men but i i think some of them i
00:02:28.320think their consciences are stricken i think they feel guilty that they're not doing the same and so
00:02:32.800the safe the easiest thing to do is to attack now of course i don't know uh matheson myself i don't know
00:02:38.720his own particular reasons but the comments he made were uh from a pastor i found rather shocking
00:02:46.960i want to go into that article a little bit and address some of the comments that were made
00:02:53.040so you know he pastor matheson actually was stated as having say i think it gives christianity a bad name
00:03:01.840um from what i'm seeing in particular today there's almost two different camps even forming
00:03:09.520inside of the christian movement there are those kind of more institutional church um
00:03:17.520teachings and then there's more the evangelistic kind of getting back to the bible teaching are you
00:03:24.400seeing that is is you know what is christianity today yeah it's interesting because uh i'm
00:03:31.360presbyterian tim is baptist uh james is baptist uh arthur i'm not sure uh arthur's connections but um
00:03:39.760it is interesting that you've gotten men from a variety of different denominations who would have
00:03:44.720differences but we are in agreement on certain things and and um i found that some of the the churches
00:03:52.480that have remained open typically are are churches that take the bible very seriously but i i certainly
00:03:58.640do see that kind of a divide as you say um in in christendom there has been something of a divide
00:04:04.240all along um but we're seeing it obviously very clearly now uh with the the lockdown measures and
00:04:09.280then um the churches that are choosing to stay open in spite of those lockdowns yeah and so let's talk
00:04:17.120about that because you know in inside of this um how exactly would remaining open and serving your
00:04:26.080community give christianity a bad name well in one sense i understand where he's coming from because
00:04:35.280i i know when we did it um here as our church stayed open as a community became aware uh there was
00:04:41.040a lot of pushback a lot of anger in the community and um and i think if you were to to survey the
00:04:47.680the communities where tim and james are you would find a lot of people who are quite livid about what
00:04:52.880he's doing but ray matheson's uh observation um is one that uh it betrays from my from my understanding
00:05:04.480it betrays a misunderstanding of christianity christianity has never been um popular when
00:05:11.360with the world and so i mean jesus said as they hated me they will hate you so we're going to be
00:05:17.280like jesus we're told very clearly that we're going to be we're going to suffer persecution um jesus
00:05:22.960wasn't all that popular so the idea that christianity is in kind of a popularity contest is just a gross
00:05:30.000misunderstanding of the bible and of christianity itself um but i would say certainly yes i
00:05:35.200understand where he's coming from there there are a lot of people who are unhappy with what james and
00:05:39.840tim and myself and others are doing now ray matheson pastor matheson actually came out and said that
00:05:47.920you know we should honor the police and you know the government officials um and and he did make some
00:05:56.560quotes you know from the bible um or what his perception of that is do you want to address
00:06:03.200that a little bit because i i look at this and i i i think that right now what i'm seeing you know god's
00:06:08.960law and government's law are not necessarily i don't think they've ever been aligned no that's right i mean
00:06:17.280the reality is is they're they're usually at odds and and right now we're seeing that very plainly um
00:06:23.760what's odd and more from my perspective is that christians aren't seeing that that the church
00:06:28.240isn't recognizing that on the whole um but the comments about the police honoring the police i
00:06:33.920would say first of all that uh christians have typically been some of the strongest supporters
00:06:38.720of the police uh we teach our kids from the beginning i mean this is pretty commonplace we teach
00:06:43.520our kids to respect the police as a kid i grew up uh i'd see the uniform and i felt safe we've never had
00:06:50.560an issue with the police uh when there were calls for the police to be defunded it was uh churches were
00:06:55.680among the voices saying uh support the police um but when police start illegally arresting uh pastors
00:07:02.800for carrying out their ministerial duties then uh for uh where is the honor in that there is no honor in
00:07:09.040that so um so it makes little sense to me to say well we need to honor these men when these men are
00:07:15.120are are carrying out orders that are unlawful um and it's it's frightening to me that we are basically
00:07:23.920saying well as long as they have orders it's okay we we have there's a historical precedent for that
00:07:29.680uh it's when when men start to do unlawful things um in the name of um well it was my duty i was told
00:07:37.120to that's frightening i would agree and when in this article in particular it seems that pastor
00:07:46.560matheson really got up uh i guess took offense to the fact that that arthur now arthur is a different
00:07:52.720kind of pastor you know and and it's amazing that we lump um james coats and arthur poloski together
00:08:00.160a little bit because the two of them have taken very very different approaches one i would compare
00:08:05.680almost to saint peter another saint paul you know the lamb and the lion and pastor coats is very much
00:08:12.560a lamb he you know turned himself in he uh you know spent 35 jail days in jail and no charges have
00:08:22.480been laid against him i mean this is significant because when now you do bring in the law um and it
00:08:29.920has been found that he was unlawfully detained and unlawfully obstructed um in doing his duties you know
00:08:38.960this is a little different from arthur poloski who's more outspoken you know he is from poland he's
00:08:44.320seen this firsthand and the outcome you know so to to compare the two on equal footing is a little bit
00:08:53.520i think unfair but absolutely i mean there's no question their approach is different and and my
00:09:00.560approach is probably more like uh going to be more like uh tim or a james i i'm sympathetic with the way
00:09:06.480they've done things but at the same time um i'm really hesitant to criticize an arthur when um uh
00:09:14.640he's being treated the way he has and he has the the background that he does so i'm i'm thankful that
00:09:20.240guys like him are sounding the alarm we need someone to say something yeah it's a different approach but
00:09:26.400you know it the intent is the same and that's to bring attention to you know the unlawfulness and to
00:09:32.400what's actually happening and you know the potential outcomes of where this all leads right yeah
00:09:39.760so you know i also want to bring up you know in the article it talked about you know how christ was
00:09:46.320this gentle you know he didn't you know yell and scream and persecute his or torn his tormentors i
00:09:52.960think was the the term that they used um and he approached this with love and grace but the
00:09:59.680government is coming at this purely from a perspective of fear and force um how do you
00:10:06.160find the balance yeah well on one hand first of all i'd say nothing by the about the conduct of james
00:10:13.360or tim from what i've seen has been anything but gracious and loving um but then i would add that
00:10:19.840there is another side of jesus that uh the that the pastor is ignoring so on one hand he was uh tender
00:10:28.880hearted and kind there's no question of that but as he dealt with religious leaders who are hypocrites
00:10:34.240he used words like a brood of vipers um he uh he's he's the the story that we're all familiar with we
00:10:41.680should all be familiar with is the one where jesus goes into the temple and he's so angry that he fashions
00:10:47.520a whip and then he uses the whip to overturn tables and chase out uh those who are selling merchandise in
00:10:53.760his house and uh so this is a very different understanding very different picture of jesus
00:10:59.280than the one that matheson has painted um he he he is one who is holy he is he is kind he is merciful
00:11:06.880um but he is angry with the wicked every day
00:11:11.280yeah and and so i want to bring up because they actually talk about he says blasphemy
00:11:17.600i think this is a word that has just been hijacked a little bit um as to its true meaning um because
00:11:26.080you know false teaching that's blasphemy idol tree that's blasphemy you know but for some people
00:11:33.600and forgive me but you know they go oh my god and they say oh that's blasphemy but is that truly
00:11:40.240what it was intended i mean what what's your definition of of blasphemy yeah so blasphemy on
00:11:48.080its very basic uh uh understanding if you take it in the most simple form it is taking god's name in
00:11:55.200vain and so anytime somebody uses that his name irreverently lightly that is that is blasphemy and
00:12:02.640of course goes beyond that we're called to reverence god his name his word and his works and when men are
00:12:08.560irreverent um then that is that is by extension blasphemy when a minister of the gospel is carrying
00:12:16.560out his god-given duties and calling his people to worship in obedience to god's commands um that is
00:12:22.640the furthest thing from blasphemy just because the world doesn't like it um it's astonishing to me that
00:12:28.160a christian could suggest that because people are upset by it that therefore it must be blasphemy
00:12:33.280because it's because the community is is not thrilled and the media is not thrilled and the
00:12:38.800government's not thrilled therefore that's blasphemy that's just completely upside down
00:12:43.520all that matters from a christian perspective is what does god think uh if we have his approval that's
00:12:49.280all that matters and so there's there was a point made in the article and that's something else that
00:12:54.960probably worth touching on but uh the idea that um uh the principles of scripture are are not being
00:13:01.440opposed by these regulations is utterly staggering in my mind that that that a minister of the gospel
00:13:09.040could say that they're they're not uh uh imposing upon um biblical principles is is uh incredible to me
00:13:19.360well one of the stories that i i always shared with my daughter and with people was um you know how
00:13:26.560significant uh christ put an emphasis on those who stopped others from coming to him and he did that
00:13:35.680with the children don't don't stop the little children right let the little children come to me
00:13:40.960when you know you have the adults going no no no no you know keep them away and and he was adamant that
00:13:47.440you know this was the ultimate sin was to stop people from from coming to him and i i see a little bit of
00:13:55.520that story in what's unfolding um right now in front of us because you know you've got people now who
00:14:03.680are pastors and and it seems that the church is dividing um somewhat over this issue and who's right
00:14:12.560and who's wrong um it's kind of irrelevant but how do you how do you make an impact and and how do you
00:14:22.160resolve some of these these issues when you know because it back in the time you know when you looked
00:14:27.920at the jewish faith you know they rejected christ as as the messiah and you know he did lash out quite
00:14:35.040harshly in instances against their leaders he didn't mince words yeah jesus was was certainly very uh plain
00:14:44.000speaking he spoke the truth um i i think that when when you have um there's an imbalanced view right now so
00:14:50.240the the view is okay though here's the world's definition of what love is and since these men are
00:14:56.400not meeting or fitting that definition therefore they're not being loving therefore they're not being
00:15:01.760christ-like but as we look at and you just touched on this in the life of jesus uh he certainly was well
00:15:08.000aware of diseases and um as you read through the gospels you find that the people were allowed access to jesus all the time
00:15:16.240uh and they they they pressed in upon him they were allowed to touch him and his whole ministry was one where
00:15:24.080apart from seasons where he went away to be alone in prayer was one where where the people had access to him
00:15:30.080and so in the church uh we've always functioned that way for centuries the church has functioned in such a way
00:15:36.400that people have access to the church we we there's there's sometimes a little bit of upset and the part of some when the church does something called excommunication when we
00:15:46.240remove people from the membership over church discipline issues uh what's interesting about
00:15:52.080what's happening now is that we have almost this mass excommunication we have all these people who are not
00:15:56.880allowed to come to worship who long to be in the worship who long to be uh sitting in a sense at the feet
00:16:01.760of jesus and they're not allowed to be um not because jesus said they can't but because uh the premier
00:16:09.040of this province or the other robin said they can yeah there's been an interesting meme that's gone
00:16:14.160around and it highlights you know what jesus would be doing in a time like this and what it said you
00:16:19.520know he wouldn't probably be wearing a mask he wouldn't probably be you know hiding at home um he'd be
00:16:26.000out amongst his people and uh i've i've had i like to read the comments because it's not the memes that
00:16:33.120interest me it's the comments and where people are at in their psychology and around this and so many
00:16:38.480people are so fearful um that i don't think they're necessarily thinking clearly but in your opinion
00:16:44.720what would jesus be doing right now in this time would he be double masking and staying at home and
00:16:50.880abiding by the rote rules or you know would he be out practicing his his ministry well satan is the father of
00:16:58.480lies and jesus is one of pure truth he would not live by lies and and so there's no question in my
00:17:09.200mind that he would not wear a mask um and because the mask is a is a symbol of a lie um and and certainly
00:17:18.000he would be among the people absolutely there's all kinds of one another commandments in the new
00:17:21.840testament that many christians cannot fulfill right now because they're listening to the government
00:17:27.200but if they would take up their bibles and just simply act on their bibles they would find that
00:17:30.960they they do have to be among the community they have to get out there there needs to be fellowship
00:17:36.240together there needs to be prayer together worship together and so on so yeah i'm i have no doubt in
00:17:42.080my mind that if he were here um he wouldn't be very popular yeah it it seems to be the trend this uh
00:17:49.920dispopulated um you know mother theresa um you know and people think well you know covid but i mean
00:17:57.360at the time of christ there were lepers there were all sorts of diseases and we didn't have treatments
00:18:02.480um at that time for those diseases so they were you know i think a lot more scary in some regards and
00:18:09.440the fact that you know they they were not treatable um and they were you know very deadly in a number of
00:18:16.400different respects whether you were excommunicated from your family and sent to live you know in
00:18:21.600isolation or in a leper community or and then you have mother theresa who you know lived among the sick
00:18:28.800and you know against a variety of different illnesses and diseases so where where do you think all this
00:18:36.960ends because we're seeing a lot of christian persecution and you know here in alberta in
00:18:42.320in particular we've had mosques that are operating and we haven't seen anybody speak out or and i don't
00:18:50.480and please forgive me like i think every religion has the right to practice um their faith um this is
00:18:58.720not about picking and choosing but it seems that the government has cited that you know one can operate
00:19:05.840without harassment but another can't yeah it's troubling isn't it i i don't know i mean it it ends
00:19:13.120when people say enough it ends when people stop complying um i talk to people sometimes who are against
00:19:19.040masking um but they they put the mask on um in order to make it easier to when they go shopping
00:19:27.600if we don't like masks we want masks to go away we all need you to stop wearing them
00:19:32.160um the the challenge has been that there's been too few voices speaking up too few that are willing
00:19:38.080to sort of go to the wall like it's like a james coats or a tim stevens uh even in the church if all
00:19:43.520the churches would open half the churches would open uh this would go away pretty quickly uh but but as
00:19:50.000long as people are willing to comply we're we're going to i think see things uh not get better but worse
00:19:55.520and it is a bit troubling isn't it to see to think what what is the long-term impact going to be not
00:20:00.880just upon uh churches but upon the the entire economy it just it's um we're living in a in a
00:20:09.200troubling time mm-hmm and you know uh matheson quoted actually saint paul's letter uh to the romans
00:20:17.520and he wrote everyone must submit to the governing authorities and uh you know but then he was also
00:20:25.760quoted in here as as saying that the church must also rebel against authorities and he points out
00:20:32.480martin luther king jr and william wilberforce and references the civil rights movement what
00:20:38.480i truly see happening today is somewhat of a civil rights movement but yet he's you know saying that
00:20:46.400it's okay for martin luther king because i think maybe he can look back in history and see as opposed to
00:20:52.640looking at the warning signs of where this leads if we don't necessarily take a stand now what will
00:20:59.440it look like in two months six months two years from now absolutely yeah there's no as hindsight
00:21:07.280is 2020 it's so much easier to look back and say well this was this was wrong and this is what ought
00:21:12.320to have been but just to be men who know the times and you can look at this current situation and and
00:21:17.600and analyze it accurately it's it is uh but there's a great deal of deception we've been exposed to
00:21:23.040uh a media that is continually uh hammering home certain messages and and uh a certain point people
00:21:29.840get sucked into all of that but romans 13 even romans 13 it's fascinating to me how that has been used by
00:21:38.080uh so many today um the the text itself qualifies that submission that first of all the minute the minister
00:21:46.400the magistrate the the government the authority is supposed to be a terror to evil and a rewarder of
00:21:55.120good so if you can show me that it is evil to gather for worship then um you've got me with romans 13 but
00:22:02.160romans 13 is clear even in its context and then of course the apostle paul who wrote that then has spent
00:22:09.360uh time in multiple prisons and was eventually executed for non-compliance for disobedience to
00:22:16.240the civil authorities so clearly the apostle did not understand that to mean that uh whenever
00:22:22.720the government asks us nicely we have to obey and the idea that's floating around that because they're
00:22:28.480not going after christians because they're say they're christians uh that therefore it's not
00:22:33.440persecution uh is is uh is also uh i think a wild idea uh i think about daniel in the in the old
00:22:40.960testament a man who was supposed to stop uh just for a season he was he was not to pray to his god
00:22:47.920and of course daniel went ahead and did it anyway when we tell our children the story of daniel in
00:22:52.560the lion's den and how god honored him and protected him and then what do we do when the government says
00:22:56.560well just for a little while uh which has become not a little while but for a little while we want you
00:23:01.280to stop uh gathering for worship we say okay no problem um and and the reality is whether it's in a
00:23:08.640church building or in a barn or on a field the church must gather that isn't there is no church
00:23:15.280if if it is not gathered and i think that's the key it's uh you know he talks about big buildings and
00:23:22.400we can do this online but you know community is not shared virtually community is shared you know um
00:23:31.040person to person face to face for the most part and we're seeing such an impact on you know mental
00:23:36.720health not only in our children but in in people you know grown adults as well um depression and
00:23:44.160and mental health issues and that's right suicides and i mean this is a part that the church really
00:23:50.400plays a big role absolutely unity i we've grossly underestimate the impact of of the church upon the
00:23:58.000health of the nation for sure and um you know we as we discussed ourselves as a church what do we do
00:24:04.320we're uh we knew we had to gather now we could have chosen to to meet somewhere other than the
00:24:09.760church building so no one not james tim archer as far as i know uh or here in ontario jacob myself and
00:24:17.120others none of us are saying it's about the building we're saying it's about gathering the
00:24:21.520problem of course is that it's just as illegal for us to meet in someone's home as it is to meet in the
00:24:26.080church building and if we meet in someone's home who gets charged the host so if we want to
00:24:32.960protect our people and gather the safest place to do it for the people is the church building
00:24:38.400and that's some of those things are just not being recognized uh by men like mathis and i they're they're
00:24:44.240not uh um taking the time i don't think to consider uh what it is we're trying to do when we meet in a
00:24:51.440church building yeah this is not just about defiance this is about honoring you know your role as a pastor
00:24:57.920and and the role of of christianity and you know the god's law that's right that's right absolutely
00:25:06.320so if you had a message you wanted to deliver um to christians everywhere what would that message be
00:25:14.080well we've got to gather uh we have to to to gather um we have the the clear biblical command god has told
00:25:21.280us the very first and great commandment is to love him with all our heart soul mind and strength and we
00:25:25.600can't do that if we don't gather for worship and um there's a lot of fear out there fear of the
00:25:33.680disease fear of the government fear of the community um but but jesus has told us very clearly that we're
00:25:41.120to take up our cross and as christians we make our boast in the cross of jesus christ where he
00:25:50.160lay down his life in our place to bear our sins so so that we could be forgiven so that we could be
00:25:57.040saved so this this is this is the the the son of god uh who enters the world in order to take our place
00:26:06.640as our substitute bearing our sins to save us and um we are called in response to live lives that are worthy of
00:26:16.400that high calling and to imitate him by taking up our cross and sometimes our logic is like peter's
00:26:21.840we you know there's an episode in the gospel of matthew where he uh jesus is talking about his upcoming death
00:26:28.320and peter loves his master he loves jesus and he doesn't want him to die and so he rebukes him and jesus
00:26:34.160says get thee behind me satan and he rebukes him because and he says you're savoring the things not of god but of man
00:26:41.120but of man and this is what the church is doing today in this nation they're savoring the things
00:26:48.080of man not of god christ is worthy and and so his people must gather to worship him
00:26:55.760what a beautiful place to end the interview so thank you pastor richardson for taking the time to
00:27:01.840share your views and your thoughts and um i wish you luck and and i hope that uh i know you've been
00:27:08.320fined and uh have been charged as well in ontario um you don't come across as a an irrational you know
00:27:16.400highly erratic man you know it's uh you just seem passionate about you know continuing to do the work
00:27:24.640that you were called to do and um i hope that the message is is being heard that you know for for the
00:27:31.360sake of all the pastors especially here in alberta i believe alberta is the only uh province and
00:27:38.160the i i think canada is the only country that is actually imprisoned uh pastors oh yeah through
00:27:44.320all of this we're well it seems like we're well ahead of of uh many other nations in that regard but
00:27:51.600yeah no christ is is worthy fantastic well thank you so much for joining us nadine welwood for the
00:27:57.840the western standard um thank you for watching thanks