Prof Frances Widdowson on cancel culture & the threats to post secondary education
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Summary
In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Kelly Whittowson, a professor of philosophy at Mount Royal University, to discuss identity politics in the university and how it affects our ability to think critically and critically free of censorship.
Transcript
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Okay. Hello, Professor Whittowson. Welcome back to the show. I appreciate you coming on to talk
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to us today. Thanks for having me on. Great. And I did have you on before, I think it was last year
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at some point. What we had spoken of, maybe just to give a recap, because not all of our audience
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members might be familiar with the history of it, but you had been instructing for some time at
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Mount Royal University, and basically they violated the principles of tenure and you got
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removed from there. Can you kind of give a little background on what happened there?
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Yes. So I originally, up until 2020, was just asking questions about various, what is considered
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to be woke areas, which is identity politics that has become totalitarian in the university.
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This was disliked by a whole bunch of people. And then with the George Floyd killing and
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Wendy Mesley's being kicked out of the CBC, or she wasn't fired, but she was pretty much removed from
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things for mentioning the title of Pierre Valier's book, White Niggers of America. I defended her and
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then a mob went after me, about 40 professors. And because of Mount Royal's changing of its policies
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around social media, which you didn't let anyone know about, they basically used that change in policy
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policy to have me removed from Mount Royal University.
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Yeah. And I mean, it's to not even be able to speak to these things, because for example, I mean,
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the Wendy Mesley example you're speaking of is an interesting one, because this is a very progressive
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person. This was a person who's been well established at the CBC for a long time, a long career,
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very much a progressive, certainly no indications of racism. But she'd mentioned a book by title, which has,
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yeah, it's an offensive word, I can't stand that word. But it was, it's context, you're mentioning
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the title of a book in preparation for a show. And that was all it took to completely destroy a career
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that spanned decades, because context doesn't matter anymore.
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Yeah. And the fact that no one defended her, and the fact that I defended her, and then got
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basically taken out for defending her, just shows you the madness that is happening, especially at a
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university where referring to book titles is something that we have to do. And I myself have
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done research on Quebec nationalism, and have used that book title. So what am I supposed to do? I'm
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not supposed to be referring to that book title, I just don't understand where all this is going. So
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that's the kind of self censorship and fear that is permeating throughout universities that we need to
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push back on push back hard right now, before they start to put people in jail for putting forward
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ideas that are considered to be quote, unquote, incorrect.
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Well, that's it. And universities, I mean, they traditionally they reformed, I mean, it was supposed
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to be a place where you're going to have critical discourse, you're going to have discussion, people
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don't have to agree, a professor might truly be haywire, and offensive and off the rails. Oh, well,
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that's the way it goes. Debate it, move on. Don't, don't go to that professor's courses. That's what
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you've got to protect it. I mean, it was considered extreme for professors to talk about racial
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integration in schools in the American in the United States back in the 40s and 50s, they were
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risking their careers by coming out in favor of it. Thankfully, there were protections, so they
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could push for that, and we got better. But now, we've got a group think mentality, and it's chilling
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any kind of discourse. Yes, and there's just a report that came out of the United States now,
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and they're finding that professors are censoring more now than they were during the McCarthy era. So
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things are really going off the rails, and it's not just Mount Royal University, you know, people might
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want to focus on that, but that's really not the situation. We have problems all across the country,
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and it is due to the fact that the academic character of universities and the acceptance of
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the idea that you should be able to discuss all ideas at a university has now been completely
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usurped by this idea that if you say something that is hurtful to a member of a particular group,
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that should not be allowed because that's somehow making the university unsafe for those groups and
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is excluding them from the university, when in fact it's actually excluding them from the university to
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not enable them to become part of the conversation to try to determine many of the serious problems that
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are facing indigenous people, for example, or trans activists or whatever the group might happen to
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be that's being protected. Well, yeah, so getting to the more recent incident, you were invited by
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another professor, Professor of Philosophy. Again, this is talking about an area of academia where you
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should be expanding thought and discussing things that you were there invited to speak and word got out of
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it and a haywire mob essentially shut you down. Yeah, that was quite a shocker. I'm used to
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these incidents happening and often they're quite comical. And then to have to step out of the elevator
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and to see this large public space just filled to the rafters with hundreds of people brandishing signs,
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you know, saying, you know, no place for hate that they're in racism, free speech is not hate speech, all
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these sorts of things, which, you know, okay, students like to blow off steam, we understand that it's often a, you
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know, a big part of universities, but that's not really the problem. It's not really the students that I think are the
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problem here. The problem is the administrators and the faculty, there are serious problems now with the
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faculty not thinking that ideas can be discussed. A number of professors at the University of Lethbridge
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actively supported the students. The history, history professor held a talk at the exact same time
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that my talk was going to be given right from the beginning. And as well, the faculty association,
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that is something that people should really take an interest in because it's the faculty associations
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that defend professors' academic freedom and freedom of expression. This faculty association,
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which is just horrendous, the University of Lethbridge Faculty Association expressed concern about
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hurtful speech on my part and the need to protect students and faculty from my speech.
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I think that the faculty association should be taking forward that grievance and fighting hard against
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the university. But of course, they're very unlikely to do so because they are actually responsible for
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the terrible situation that exists at the University of Lethbridge.
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Well, and you know, of all associations, you think an association of academia would understand
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the dangers of appeasing a mob, you know, throwing one to the mob, and it's like the old statement of
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appeasement, where eventually they're going to come for you, your own freedoms, you're going to say
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something, you're going to study something that some group or individual or such is going to say is
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offensive. I don't want to hear it. And you're going to be thrown under the bus. And you set the
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precedent to allow that to happen. Like the danger of this is immense. And what is the point of a
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faculty association if they won't stand up for faculty?
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Well, they said they stand up for some faculty, the faculty that they whose views they agree with,
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and they don't stand up for faculty whose views they don't agree with. And this is totally goes against the
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duty of fair representation. It's a massive failure of the labor relations framework in Alberta. And
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this has really got to be one of the major targets right now and trying to get the faculty
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associations to be to actually uphold their duty of fair representation, and defend all faculty members,
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and accept the idea that it's important to discuss ideas, even if some people get upset by hearing those ideas.
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Because it's not just about freedom of expression, everyone thinks about freedom of expression and your ability to speak your mind.
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It's also about the ability of people to hear. So people have at a university should be able to hear different views,
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evaluate those views, and determine whether those views have merit or not. They shouldn't have
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a group of activists making a predetermined decision about what ideas can and cannot be heard. And that is a
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huge problem now in all universities across the country. Yeah, and the other element you mentioned
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was the faculty and the cowardice on their part. And we've seen that happen in a lot of universities
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in Canada, as well as in Europe, we've seen it in the United States, when there's protests,
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they always use the safety card. Oh, we're not doing it to shut down speech. But it just seems like
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things might not be safe, even for the speaker. So we'll do it on your behalf. Even the speaker says,
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I'm fine. Oh, no, no, no, we better stop. It's just, it's cowardice on their part,
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though. I mean, some of those mobs are pretty aggressive. But I mean, that shouldn't be
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tolerated. Capitulating to threats of violence isn't the way to deal with it, then up security,
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if that's the case, or limited mission for people coming to these events, but faculty
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just much prefers to shut the event down altogether. Well, that was the funny thing about
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the University of Lethbridge, because I've been involved in talks at places like Wilfrid Laurier
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University, where there actually was kind of threats that were being made. And so they blew that up
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into, oh, well, we've got to have all this huge security fencing and all these sorts of things.
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But at the case of the University of Lethbridge, it was made very clear by the protesters that they
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were going to be nonviolent. So that wasn't even part of the calculus that happened with respect to
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the president canceling the talk. He explicitly stated that the talk was being canceled, not because of
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physical safety concerns, but because of psychological safety concerns, and the fact that
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certain students felt that they would be harmed by hearing words with which they disagreed.
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And this did a huge for the president. And then not only that, not only did the friends of the
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president cancel the talk, after I tried to go to the university and make a speech in a public place,
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just because I wanted to push back against being, you know, not being allowed to come on campus to
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give a talk, I didn't want to be to be not be allowed to go there. Then there's this huge crowd
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that shouted me down, what does the president do, he sends out a message the next day congratulating
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the students and faculty members for what they did. You know, what kind of message does that send
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from an academic leader, a supposed academic leader, who is having that attitude that it is acceptable
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for people to, for a small group, a relatively small group of activists, because there were people
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there who wanted to listen to me speak, for them to be able to have that power to shut down views with
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which they disagree. It's just completely shocking.
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Well, and so, I mean, a few years ago, there was a professor, he might still be at the University
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of Lethbridge, it just popped into my head, his name escapes me, but he was an avowed Marxist,
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he used to annoy the heck out of me. I mean, he was very controversial, in my view, and belligerent
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and offensive in his views. He would soft pedal even things such as the actions of Stalin and the
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people he harmed. And I couldn't stand that. But it never occurred to me for a second that he should be
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fired or shut down or kicked out of the university. It's just that we should debate this, this man,
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and lay out why his views are wrong and odious. But the mindset has changed now. And what does it
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take? Or what can it? Well, what can we do? I guess is the question. I mean, it seems we've got a whole
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generation of snowflake students coming up that have been taught that if you have a temper tantrum,
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you don't have to hear anything that might offend your ears. Can we change this tide now, though?
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It's going to be very difficult. And it's kind of funny, because I actually am a socialist myself.
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So I do have a very critical view of capitalism. But it's, you know, people disagree with me,
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and that's fine. And in fact, it's good for people to hear, if you're not a socialist,
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what the socialist position is, so that you can more fully understand it. This is a huge battle now.
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Many of my colleagues say it's over. We're not going to be able to save the university. I have a more
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optimistic type of view myself. I think what is required is serious organization. So we need to
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have organization at the university level, at the national level, and at the international level,
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and somehow work to get all these entities kind of acting together. I am a board member for an
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organization called the Society for Academic Freedom and Scholarship, www.safs.ca.
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And what we want to do in that organization is organize local chapters for each university.
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And that's the kind of on the ground type of organizing work that has to be done,
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so that you can introduce faculty members to other faculty members who want to protect
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the academic character of the university. You can bring the students in who are interested in this.
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You can bring in interested members of the public. So it's not very glamorous work to be doing that,
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but it's really the only hope, I think, is to act in that way. And that's what I'm going to be
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devoting the rest of my life to, I think, is to try to save universities. People don't realize how
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important universities are in terms of being a bulwark against this art, you know, these autocratic
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types of intrusions. If we lose our universities, we are going to have serious problems in terms of
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these sort of totalitarian impulses that we see already that are trying to assert themselves in
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Well, that's it, because the graduates of these universities are going to be moving into senior
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academic positions, senior bureaucratic positions in the country, they're going to be the regulators,
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they're going to be the ones that are managing a lot of aspects of our lives very soon. And we would
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like to think that they have some good, broad and tolerant views. But if they've been instilled with
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such an attitude of entitlement and closed mindedness, as we're seeing right now, we could be seeing a lot of
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Yes. And one of the big areas which really scares me is the legal profession, because we rely on our
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courts to uphold principles such as the rule of law and equality under the law. Wokeism is completely
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opposed to that, and has the idea of this intersectional scale of oppression. And if you are a
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member of an oppressed group, somehow the law should treat you differently than other people. And this
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is starting to infuse itself into the legal profession now. So I'm very, very worried that in not too long
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in the future, we will see these fundamental principles of the legal system being overturned by
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wokeism. And in fact, it's not far off. We had the ward decision, which was successful, upheld freedom of
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expression. But I believe it was five, four was the decision. And that could have just you need one
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more Supreme Court justice, who becomes starts to develop this kind of these kinds of woke ideas,
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totalitarian identity politics. And that decision is going to be overturned. And we aren't going to
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have freedom of expression rights anymore. As well, a very, very important example just happened.
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Leah Gazan, the MP, NDP MP wants to criminalize, saying that the residential schools are not genocidal.
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This is a major area of contention in, amongst historians, amongst many academics, for her to be
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saying that you should, you should criminalize and put in jail, people who have a dissenting position on
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this is just absolutely outrageous. And the fact that it's being accepted, and not there's not a huge
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outpouring of opposition is an indication of how close we are to having complete, you know, autocratic
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types of processes take over our society. Yeah, well, our elected officials, even the ones who have
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trouble with it are afraid of that trap. And that's what it is, is a trap. Because if you speak against it,
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you're saying, Oh, so you're trying to say the residential schools were good, or you, you're,
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of course, the racist word is almost immediately thrown out if somebody questions it. And often,
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they're just too scared to take on that battle. So they let it slide by. But when you have a legal
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precedent that would shut down legally shut down discourse on something that's definitely still
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very much in the investigative point of establishing in history. Boy, that's a river we don't want to cross.
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It's true. And even if you know, it's an it's an idea that's wrong, like, like, you should be entitled
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to be wrong. Because that's how we figure things out. If you don't want to utter something for fear
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that it's, it's wrong, and therefore, it's not going to be allowed, then you will not be able to
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enter into that investigation and see, you know, and it's possible there might be part of it that's
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right, all these kinds of very, very complex kinds of questions that need to be examined openly.
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And without fear, that you're going to be subjected to some kind of punishment,
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just for trying to figure it out. And in the end, well, maybe it's incorrect. But you know,
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still, you've learned something by being corrected, by trying to understand something more fully. So I
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think the universities and what's happening in the universities is permeating into all aspects of
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society. And I am very afraid for the future. You know, it wasn't that long ago where universities
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were functioning properly. And really, it's only been in the last five, 10 years that we've had this
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takeover. And it's on the move, it's not going to stop where it is now, it needs people to really take it
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seriously, and really to fight back against it.
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A couple of commenters, Terry French and Tom Abbott, I see the name, of course, Jordan Peterson
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has come up. And I think of others like Gad Saad, though he hasn't been cancelled, he's been very
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critical of these things. But it's typically once they're outside the institution, that they do that.
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But I mean, there is new platforms being given, I guess, to some outspoken people that are gaining some
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steam and, you know, bringing this into discussion. But do you think, you know, they can make change,
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or are they going to be taking part in this organization of trying for, you know, academia
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I hope so. We have had Jordan Peterson and Gad Saad come and give talks at the Society
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for Academic Freedom and Scholarship. You know, but it's difficult when you become a celebrity,
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because then it's just, it's easier just to go and talk to large crowds, which is very,
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I'm not trying to downplay that, because I think that that's very important. And both Gad Saad and
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Jordan Peterson, I've learned a lot from them. I really enjoy listening to them, we disagree on
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a number of things, obviously, but you know, that's, there's nothing wrong with that. But I admire
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their, their principal defense of academic freedom and freedom of expression. But, you know, unfortunately,
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the I think the, if it's going to be successful, trying to pull our universities back, it's going to be
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doing the hard, unthank, you know, task that is not very glamorous, as I said before, of going into
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each university and trying to find the people there, who support these principles, and then giving them
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some kind of, of organizational support, because that's very, very important for professors, is that
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if you stand up for the university, and you're an individual, you will be taken out, there's no doubt
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about it. And there, these administrators, and you don't have your faculty association to protect you.
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So you need organization, you need serious help with, you know, supporting you, giving you the resources
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that you need to fight back against it. That is the kind of work that has to be done. And I am currently,
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you know, once I get through all my own, you know, difficulties with Mount Royal University,
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I'm really looking forward to working much more in a hands on fashion, at the local university level,
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and trying to tie each of those universities in to the national organization that is in existence. And
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then the very, very good international organizations, I just meant, I mentioned FIRE, which is the foundation
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for individual rights and expression, I think, in the United States, the free speech union,
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in the United Kingdom, there's a number of organizations like this, but the problem is,
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we're all kind of working, sort of separately, when we need to kind of have this sort of networking
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type of approach, where we tie everyone together, so that we can act in a more kind of unified,
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organized fashion, to try to save our universities, which are failing, which are failing terribly. And
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anyone who doesn't think there's a problem is not paying attention to what's happening in universities.
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My case is very, very important. It's going through arbitration, May, June, and I believe November and
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December of this year. And hopefully that case, and with my reinstatement, I'm fighting hard for
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reinstatement back into Mount Royal University. And if I'm not, if I'm not reinstated, universities are
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over, because I have done nothing wrong. And it's just the complete abuse of power by Mount Royal
00:22:59.460
Well, I certainly do hope that your challenge against Mount Royal is successful. And I really want
00:23:04.420
your group to take off. I'll point people as well, you wrote a great extended piece in Sea to
00:23:09.220
Sea journal.ca. It's called into walking woke isms raging ma. And for looking that up, guys,
00:23:16.260
it's letter C number two, letter C, it makes it hard to Google it sometimes journal.ca. But look it
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up. It's well worth a read. And you'll get a lot more background on what's going on with Professor
00:23:25.780
Whitteson. And before I let you go, where else can people find information then on what you're working
00:23:30.820
Yes, so there's a website that's been developed about my case. It's called www.wokeacademy.info.
00:23:39.780
There's an area there about the fought my firing, which has, I believe it's 16 episodes about what
00:23:45.700
went on there. As well, there's information that's posted onto the blog that's happened there. And I
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do a lot of posting now on my Facebook page as well. So there's a lot of information that I post
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on a daily basis on my Facebook page, which gives people a lot of information.
00:24:01.380
Great. Well, thank you again for coming on to talk to us today and for keeping up the fight
00:24:05.940
rather than just kind of giving up and going into retirement like so many do. I can understand the
00:24:09.380
temptation for it. So I hope we can talk again soon and perhaps be talking about a success on one level
00:24:20.020
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