Western Standard - July 28, 2023


Reducing barriers to affordable housing.


Episode Stats

Length

16 minutes

Words per Minute

204.01543

Word Count

3,333

Sentence Count

192

Misogynist Sentences

1


Summary

In this episode of the podcast, we sit down with Councillor Shane Stewart to discuss the lack of housing in Alberta. We talk about why we need to do more, how to get more houses built, and how to keep up with demand.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 So thanks for joining us today, Shane.
00:00:01.860 Thanks for having me, Corey.
00:00:03.780 I really appreciate it.
00:00:05.500 I can't remember exactly what the tweet was.
00:00:07.820 It was something that got you quite stirred up a little while back with housing
00:00:11.420 because, I mean, people are pointing fingers all over the place,
00:00:14.960 but they won't address the real issues of why we can't get enough housing built
00:00:18.880 to keep up with demand.
00:00:19.800 Can you kind of expand to start this off?
00:00:22.520 Well, yeah, I think what really ticked me off on the original tweet that I'd made
00:00:26.640 was just the Housing and Affordability Task Force.
00:00:30.620 And I guess why it frustrated me, Corey, is that, you know,
00:00:33.420 here we had a bunch of city experts and other experts get together,
00:00:37.320 but the only expert missing from around the table was the housing
00:00:41.460 and development industry and what we could do to support the goal.
00:00:47.960 Yeah, well, I mean, it just, well, again, looking,
00:00:51.420 we're just going to frustrate ourselves when we try to look for common sense
00:00:53.840 in the realm of government and committees and task forces.
00:00:56.580 But all the same, we should still call it out when, boy, you know,
00:00:59.540 if it was a medical thing, they would have doctors involved in it.
00:01:02.260 If it was an energy thing, presumably they would have energy producers
00:01:05.700 at least contributing.
00:01:07.360 If you're looking to build more houses,
00:01:08.980 why don't you have the developers and home builders giving some input on it?
00:01:12.580 Well, it just seemed to be common sense in my mind,
00:01:15.380 and I think in yours as well and a lot of people's.
00:01:17.700 But, you know, when I look at the task force,
00:01:19.820 I guess where the biggest frustration came in is it was really addressing the social issue
00:01:24.920 and subsidized housing more than it was, you know, affordable market housing
00:01:30.080 and trying to get through the boom that we're going through in Alberta right now,
00:01:34.220 being such a popular province to move to.
00:01:37.260 Well, that's it.
00:01:38.000 We've got a great interprovincial and immigration coming into Alberta.
00:01:42.780 I mean, there's a great future.
00:01:44.160 It's a great place to move, but we aren't keeping up with that demand.
00:01:47.400 And these task forces, as you said, they talk about subsidized housing,
00:01:50.980 things like that, but often they dodge.
00:01:52.280 The reality is we need supply.
00:01:53.840 It doesn't matter how much you subsidize.
00:01:55.560 If there are not enough houses, you've got a problem.
00:01:58.900 Yes.
00:01:59.340 Well, and that's what we're experiencing right now.
00:02:01.300 I mean, not only do we have, you know, supply chain issues,
00:02:04.080 we're still managing a bit of that.
00:02:05.900 You know, we're dealing with labor issues as well.
00:02:08.680 You know, the quick estimate off the top of my head would be that in this province,
00:02:13.000 we need about 90,000 to 100,000 homes built, and we have the capacity for about 36,000 in total.
00:02:21.260 You know, that's a far cry from where we need to be to handle the onslaught that we're dealing with.
00:02:26.400 And, you know, we're welcome that.
00:02:27.620 You know, we're obviously happy to have it, I should say,
00:02:30.340 but, you know, not at the expense of people not being able to take their homes
00:02:34.960 or not being able to afford their homes.
00:02:36.780 And that all comes down to supply.
00:02:39.820 So there's two hindrances.
00:02:41.540 You know, we've talked about that when you've been on the show before.
00:02:44.660 I'll start with the one that was regulatory.
00:02:46.900 Now, I mean, again, when you get discussions with people,
00:02:49.180 oh, well, we've got to regulate to keep homes safe and have a standard
00:02:52.620 or a certain environmental standard.
00:02:55.020 But sometimes, I mean, there's just too much.
00:02:58.360 Where can we reduce some regulations to make it easier for you guys to keep up and keep building?
00:03:02.940 Well, I mean, obviously, you know, simple economics, supply and demand.
00:03:08.380 I mean, we're quelling the supply based on an ideology that is just kind of foreign to me.
00:03:15.340 And, you know, to drop that red tape associated with that ideology would be the first best place to start.
00:03:22.580 You know, we've taken what I like to say is a relatively simple concept of building a house
00:03:27.520 and building an energy-efficient home, and we've turned it into something just completely complex
00:03:32.960 to the point where it takes anywhere, you know, depending on the company.
00:03:37.780 I mean, it could take anywhere from 60 to 150 days longer just to build.
00:03:43.460 I mean, that just seems ridiculous for, you know, when you're trying to supply housing to people
00:03:47.900 and in an affordable fashion.
00:03:50.460 Well, yeah, and that was something we talked about before.
00:03:52.300 I think it was something along the lines of seven years from concept to construction,
00:03:56.160 assuming every hoop has been jumped through, every license has been found,
00:04:00.700 and every application has been approved.
00:04:02.620 Anywhere along the way, that could get shut down.
00:04:05.120 I mean, there's millions and millions of dollars spent before you're even seeing a foundation
00:04:08.820 starting to be poured, and that all comes down to the cost of the house in the end.
00:04:13.120 Well, sure it does, and, you know, it's the end user that bears the cost.
00:04:17.040 You know, there's this perception that it's the developer, the builder, that's absorbing it.
00:04:21.520 Well, you can't absorb it at the end of the day when you're used to, you know, purchasing land
00:04:26.060 and you're in the ground within a couple of years.
00:04:28.860 Seven years is a tremendously long time, and that just seems to be the norm,
00:04:32.580 and it's getting longer, it seems, every day.
00:04:35.980 You know, so everybody's trying their hardest, and, you know, you just kind of long for the days
00:04:39.820 when you had a strong partnership with planning and the City of Calgary,
00:04:44.260 and that just seems to have imploded over the last 12 years.
00:04:48.460 So I see one of the commenters saying when we say homes doing apartments or houses or both,
00:04:54.280 I mean, I imagine when I say home, I mean both.
00:04:56.660 I mean, it's all somewhere where somebody can be housed, and then there's demand for each.
00:05:01.720 Are condos facing the same sort of hindrances in trying to get zoned and built as houses are?
00:05:07.960 Sure they are.
00:05:08.920 You know, and I think that's, you know, it's one of the many challenges because, of course,
00:05:12.080 it takes longer to build, but you can put a tremendous amount of units out there
00:05:16.360 when you look at some of the high-rises in downtown Calgary,
00:05:19.320 but when you look at a lot of the four- and five-storey apartment buildings out in New Suburbia.
00:05:25.860 You know, it takes at least a couple of years just to get the approvals in place,
00:05:30.580 and by then you may have missed the market, but in this case you could probably build it now,
00:05:35.020 when people will just generally come, but, you know, why such a holdup when, you know,
00:05:40.500 you've taken care of everything that's written in black and white, you know,
00:05:45.060 why are we dealing with, you know, a file manager who wants to put their own personal touch on it?
00:05:49.540 I'm just kind of baffled by all of that.
00:05:52.260 Yeah, well, so that was an interesting comment, and then Don Sharp was a commenter as well,
00:05:56.400 saying, you know, what's the best way to streamline some of these issues with the paperwork,
00:05:59.380 inspection, and regulation, you know, delays?
00:06:02.320 So you're saying sometimes it is a person just kind of wants to make their own little unique footprint,
00:06:07.480 I guess, on a project?
00:06:09.020 You know, in some cases, Corey, that's what's happening.
00:06:11.600 In some cases, you need parks to agree with roads, to agree with the fire department on certain things,
00:06:17.740 and you can understand that they, you know, they want to dot their I's and cross their T's, rather.
00:06:23.360 But, you know, I mean, ultimately what we're trying to do is we're trying to provide housing,
00:06:27.980 and the longer it takes, the more expensive it gets,
00:06:30.560 because every day costs you more and more and more.
00:06:34.940 That's it.
00:06:35.500 I mean, we could just, you know, flick a switch and bring more labor in overnight,
00:06:38.600 or there's a lot of challenges.
00:06:40.080 We still have a lot of long game.
00:06:41.220 But some of these regulatory things, we should be able to, if the will was there,
00:06:44.940 be able to change those pretty quickly.
00:06:47.120 But you mentioned ideology as well, and it's not unique to Calgary.
00:06:50.760 There seems to be a lot of municipal governments that have a fixation on urban density
00:06:55.400 and fighting outward growth of the cities, and that, you know, makes things problematic as well.
00:07:01.400 I mean, inner city infills are beautiful, but they aren't cheap,
00:07:04.060 and we need stuff a little faster and a little wider if we're really going to meet that need.
00:07:09.500 Well, and that's really it, Corey.
00:07:11.240 That's the challenge with the ideology is that, you know, it maybe works in theory,
00:07:15.920 but, you know, this isn't Europe.
00:07:18.540 You know, we're not building up as much as we are building out.
00:07:22.480 And when you take a look at a lot of the new suburban subdivisions, quite honestly,
00:07:26.880 they're more dense than even some of the inner city neighborhoods.
00:07:31.580 So, I mean, you've seen a tremendous shift over the last short while driven by the consumer.
00:07:37.240 And, I mean, really, isn't that what we're doing it for?
00:07:39.740 We're trying to build homes for people, and we're trying to allow them the choice
00:07:43.760 rather than pigeonholing them inside an ideology.
00:07:47.360 Because if they don't build here in Calgary, if, you know, a smaller center like Airdrie or Okotoks or Chestermere
00:07:53.920 are prepared to accept that, then they go there.
00:07:57.760 Which actually leads to less density and all those things that they were ideologically opposed to in the first place.
00:08:03.260 I mean, they're trying to save the world and reduce emissions.
00:08:05.260 Well, we have people commuting a longer distance to get to work
00:08:08.000 because they've been ironically driven out of the city environment for affordability reasons.
00:08:12.620 Sure, they do.
00:08:14.280 And that's ultimately what you're going to start to see happen, I think, is, you know,
00:08:18.420 if the city of Calgary is going to be more of a challenge, you know,
00:08:22.560 a lot of these smaller centers are prepared to take that tax base,
00:08:25.600 and they'll still be working in Calgary.
00:08:27.900 And you're not going to see the taxes from them.
00:08:30.220 Well, we're seeing that in Calgary, for example, with the industrial, for sure.
00:08:33.500 If you go north of the city into the Rocky View, holy cow, are they putting up warehouses
00:08:37.180 and light manufacturing and all sorts of things?
00:08:39.600 And it's no coincidence that it's just north of the city line.
00:08:43.860 The city's not winning when they're trying these battles.
00:08:46.740 No, they're not.
00:08:47.560 And they're losing out on about another 1,000 acres of that, too.
00:08:51.620 So, I mean, again, it gets back to the solutions.
00:08:53.960 As you said, I mean, we've got multiple levels of government.
00:08:56.060 That's part of the problem, too.
00:08:57.240 And they aren't necessarily getting along.
00:08:59.220 I think the federal government, I saw some signaling.
00:09:01.440 I mean, they're trying the carrot approach with some of the municipal governments saying
00:09:04.580 they'd have transfers if municipal governments could come up with ways to expand their housing
00:09:08.920 supply.
00:09:09.660 But if you aren't directing that money directly, it could, of course, just fall into that
00:09:13.700 municipal pot, and they still could hinder outward growth of housing, I guess.
00:09:18.440 Well, that's exactly what you're seeing happening, Corey.
00:09:21.100 And I think that's, again, kind of circling back to the housing affordability task force.
00:09:26.780 Rather, you know, the focus has been on, you know, social or subsidized housing, because
00:09:33.060 now we've created a problem.
00:09:35.300 We've created, you know, a pricing problem and an affordability problem.
00:09:39.880 You know, and that seems to be where a lot of that's getting directed.
00:09:43.080 And, you know, good on them for taking on that issue.
00:09:46.000 But, you know, the biggest challenge past that is, you know, we're already constrained
00:09:50.060 with labor.
00:09:50.660 So how are you going to build it?
00:09:52.040 You've come up with this great plan, but how are you going to build it more importantly?
00:09:56.780 Yeah, I mean, subsidized, socialized housing, and then when you pour money into that, when
00:10:01.840 you have the labor crunch, well, then you're actually just going to put the prices of things
00:10:05.620 up even higher because you're pulling the labor and supplies into another area.
00:10:09.960 It turns into a self-feeding monster.
00:10:12.540 Another issue we've got, and it's not just the people at the level of needing subsidized
00:10:16.580 or socialized housing, but people are in, if they've recently bought into an existing
00:10:20.660 home and they came in tightly on the financing, the interest rates have been going up.
00:10:26.480 And suddenly they're finding themselves very, very crunched right now and making that mortgage
00:10:29.720 payment.
00:10:30.680 And that's the new challenge that we have.
00:10:34.120 And we faced that last month where we had 10 homeowners who couldn't take their homes
00:10:38.140 because they no longer qualified with the increase in the rates.
00:10:42.780 And, of course, now they're re-qualifying under the CMHC stress test, rather.
00:10:48.660 And that just adds another two and a half, two and three quarter points onto what they
00:10:53.840 have to qualify for.
00:10:55.000 So they no longer qualify for a home.
00:10:56.940 So they were that close to achieving their dream.
00:11:00.420 And now that's gone for now.
00:11:03.220 And it's got to be heartbreaking.
00:11:04.700 I mean, we know now it is so hard to get into the housing market and getting going, saving
00:11:09.560 that money, getting the good credit, tightening the belts.
00:11:12.400 And then, as you said, getting that close and suddenly, and I'm sorry, it might take
00:11:16.820 you a couple more years, if ever, because the cost has just shot up yet again.
00:11:21.180 Yes.
00:11:21.700 Yes.
00:11:22.040 So, I mean, you know, eliminating that stress test would be the first best thing.
00:11:25.500 And I know that I have a number of people who would argue with me on that.
00:11:29.000 But I just don't think that's a qualification that really needs to be in place anymore.
00:11:32.900 I think, you know, if the federal government follows through on their promise that they're
00:11:36.920 not going to continually jack up rates, which they seem to have failed at to this point,
00:11:41.800 you know, then we wouldn't have these same issues.
00:11:44.900 You know, it also works both ways.
00:11:46.760 When you continually increase rates, I mean, that just puts fear in people, fear that they're
00:11:51.420 never going to be able to get in.
00:11:52.540 They're never going to be able to achieve that dream.
00:11:54.280 And that's creating, you know, that mass rush as well.
00:11:57.820 Well, yeah, you might reevaluate your decision as well.
00:12:00.280 I mean, oh, wow, I'm qualified now, but we're here.
00:12:02.540 We're one paycheck away from bankruptcy.
00:12:04.200 If we go, if we dive in right now, maybe we'll wait and they'll hold back.
00:12:08.600 But I mean, it doesn't get easier for waiting, unfortunately.
00:12:12.440 So have you, has your industry or India's industry associations at least been reaching out to
00:12:18.220 the government saying, hey, hey, you know, talk to us, we can work on this.
00:12:21.740 Like, has there been an effort to try and at least get them to realize that they're missing
00:12:25.380 out on an important perspective?
00:12:26.540 There are literally daily and weekly conversations with every level of government possible.
00:12:34.160 You know, the HBAs, the home building associations rather, across the entire country, even at
00:12:38.800 the federal level, have spent a lot of time with their counterparts in government having
00:12:43.460 these discussions on how to make things more affordable.
00:12:46.420 Now, whether or not they take the recommendations, I mean, that's totally up to the minister and
00:12:51.620 their departments.
00:12:52.220 Well, if they didn't invite your input in the first place, it doesn't sound like they're
00:12:57.060 eager to hear it, unfortunately.
00:12:59.600 I think they're eager to hear it.
00:13:01.680 But I guess where the challenge comes in, Corey, is that it should have been right up
00:13:05.920 front with the strategy.
00:13:07.200 It shouldn't be, you know, here, we've come with a strategy.
00:13:10.100 Now you guys figure out how to make it work.
00:13:12.380 Yeah.
00:13:12.600 And that's where I really get frustrated is we should have been involved right up front.
00:13:16.200 And it's disappointing that we weren't.
00:13:17.660 So just to kind of finish up, I mean, one of the big hindrances, and I don't know if
00:13:22.240 you have an answer for it, is our labor shortage, though.
00:13:24.620 I mean, if we streamline things, we get them faster.
00:13:26.860 We got some new areas zoned for it.
00:13:28.880 Fantastic.
00:13:29.680 Ready to go.
00:13:30.940 What can we do, though, to get more boots on the ground to help build these?
00:13:34.700 I mean, that's a real bottleneck, no matter what the regulations are.
00:13:37.520 Well, that's really going to come down to your immigration policies and the kind of
00:13:42.120 people that you're bringing in and the skill set that they have.
00:13:44.980 I mean, we know where we have the gaps, you know, when our industry is prepared to share
00:13:49.000 that information, and they have with their provincial and federal counterparts.
00:13:52.980 But, you know, it's getting the attention of the immigration ministers and ensuring that,
00:14:00.240 you know, we are working towards bringing this skill set into Canada and across the country.
00:14:05.600 Yeah, which is a much bigger and complicated, you know, discussion.
00:14:11.060 But, I mean, targeting skilled immigrants, whether from carpenters to even just labor.
00:14:17.900 But, I mean, it's important.
00:14:19.240 I mean, that's one of the things where we can fulfill one of the things.
00:14:21.040 We're bringing the immigrants in, and they're helping build the homes that they're going to
00:14:23.420 need when they get here.
00:14:24.820 Exactly.
00:14:25.380 And, I mean, that's an immediate solution.
00:14:27.360 And a long-term solution is you do have to get young kids and what have you in the trades.
00:14:32.640 What you're seeing or what you're experiencing now is you are experiencing retirements.
00:14:38.320 You know, you've got trades that are longer in the tooth, and they're 65, 70 years old,
00:14:43.500 and they're saying, that's enough.
00:14:44.800 I'm calling it a day.
00:14:45.700 It's time to enjoy my golden years.
00:14:48.120 So, you do need kids in the trades.
00:14:50.380 And, to be honest, I couldn't think of any generation that has a greater opportunity for
00:14:56.920 a career than they do now in the trades.
00:14:59.520 Oh, very good point.
00:15:01.640 I mean, it would take a couple to a few years to get those kids through those programs.
00:15:05.220 But, boy, it would pay off for them and us when we get that big influx of trained people
00:15:09.620 in the market.
00:15:10.860 You bet.
00:15:11.140 Well, we'll just have to keep reaching out, keep pressuring government.
00:15:15.800 I mean, there's been a recent cabinet shuffle.
00:15:17.200 Maybe they're receptive to some new ideas in there and listening.
00:15:22.080 Because, I mean, it's as frustrated as we get with the Liberal government.
00:15:25.160 I'm sure they would love, though, to have this housing problem off their back.
00:15:29.280 So, I mean, they've got to be somewhat receptive to some good thoughts now and then.
00:15:33.200 With any luck, a hope and a prayer.
00:15:35.260 Hope and a prayer.
00:15:36.160 Well, we'll keep the discussions going.
00:15:37.680 Thanks for calling them out online and coming on the show to discuss that with us, though.
00:15:41.760 Because, you know, a lot of people kind of scratch their heads.
00:15:43.920 Well, we need them.
00:15:44.680 Why aren't we getting the houses?
00:15:45.900 Well, you know, there's a lot of reasons.
00:15:47.960 And there's some solutions if the government would start considering them.
00:15:51.420 So, I appreciate that.
00:15:52.960 Where can people see you online and where you're speaking and such, Shane?
00:15:57.260 Oh, pretty simple.
00:15:58.380 Just at Shane Wenzel.
00:15:59.500 Just go on any platform.
00:16:00.720 You're going to find me there.
00:16:02.540 All right.
00:16:03.140 Well, thanks again for coming on, Shane.
00:16:05.220 It's always a good conversation when you come on.
00:16:08.160 And one of these days, we'll get it all solved.
00:16:10.700 I can only hope, Corey.
00:16:13.100 Thanks again.
00:16:14.100 And take care.
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