Retired paramedic Don Sharpe on Alberta's EMS crisis
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Summary
Corey and Don discuss the problem of ambulance wait times in the emergency room and hallway waiting rooms, and how to fix it. Don has been a paramedic for over 30 years and has dedicated his life to solving the problem.
Transcript
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Thanks for joining me today, Don. Good to see you again.
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Corey, it's a pleasure. We've worked together before on other projects, and it's good to be
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here to talk to you about this. Yes. Well, and this is certainly one you're, you know,
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professionally inclined towards. You've put a lifetime into this. Maybe, you know, in a nutshell,
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if you just want to start on what your initiative has been lately. I mean, people know there's a
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crisis, but you're working towards a solution. So, you know, we'll work onto that. I've already set
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up the problem. Right. So you're correct. I'm here appearing after I've retired. And part of me
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is chagrined a little bit about that. I would have liked to have spoken up more when I
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was working for HS, but I was really working hard inside the machine to try to solve these problems.
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Starting in 2012, I started researching and writing papers, making suggestions,
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trying to make improvements to what I thought were the problems.
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Hallway waits in the hospital, big crisis, and we're not helping. Paramedics waiting in the
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hospital hallways are not helping solve the problem. We're a simple band-aid solution. It's not working.
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Flexing ambulances from the rural communities into the city to cover a city problem. You hear
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AHS all the time say, well, we've had a 30% increase in call volume. Well, wait a sec. Look
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at the stats. That 30% increase in call volume is in the urban centers. That's not in the rural
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communities. So is it fair to take the rural ambulances, literally all of them, and bring
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them out of those rural communities where they take care of their own friends and neighbors
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and move them to the city to solve a problem just because AHS can't solve it? I disagree with all
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of these. And a lot of the work I did is publicly available. You simply have to research my name and
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hallway waits or end hallway waiting and you'll find it, so. Well, that's a very large component of it. I
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wrote on that in past columns. I went just to check for myself. I pulled outside of the rocky view,
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and there's a big, you know, area with the garages for the, and that was packed with ambulances. And
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there are six more sitting in an outside parking lot. So these are all a whole bunch of specialized,
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expensive machines. I assume they had personnel that went with them. Oh yeah. And they're all
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sitting in a hospital instead of being out and about and theoretically bringing people in.
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Yes, desperately wrong. I mean, it not only creates delays for patients waiting for care
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in the community, but it creates a moral injury for the paramedics who are in the hallway knowing
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that they're literally being held hostage by the healthcare system, not able to treat the guy who's
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trapped in a vehicle upside down, or the guy who fell off his roof, or the construction worker who's
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in a basement and can't get out. I mean, you know, it puts a burden on the other emergency services too.
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Fire departments end up staying on scene longer waiting for us. Police officers transporting our
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patients that are critically ill, and they wait and they wait and they wait on scene until finally
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they say, you know, we can't wait any longer. We got to get this guy to the hospital. There's just
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been so many occasions, so many occurrences. It's really been frustrating. And it seems like no matter
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how many times we tell them this isn't working, they don't seem to be able to solve those basic issues
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and fix what's wrong. Oh, and we've said for quite a while, you know, the language was somebody's
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going to die eventually. I mean, it's at the point people have died now. I mean, some of them are,
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you can never say 100%, but it's looking very likely. In the circumstance, one that really caught
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a lot of people's attention was last summer with that elderly woman who was attacked by the dogs.
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She was only nine minutes from the largest hospital in Alberta. And she bled out waiting over 40 minutes to
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to get ambulance service to get her back to that hospital, very possibly could have had her life saved.
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And how many ambulances were sitting stuck in hallways while this poor woman died? Well, I think
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there was actually a news report on that. I think there were 18 ambulances that were stuck in the
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hallway when that incident occurred. We're waiting for the report to come out and find out exactly who
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phoned and said what and what ambulance was sent when. But again, you know, we talk about in these
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community meetings and in these town halls, we talk about people needing to have a plan B.
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They need to have an auction phone 911 certainly, but don't then turn your brain off and wait an hour
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before you put something in a private vehicle and go. This particular case of this poor woman who was
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chewed up by these dogs, you know, she sat in that hall or in that alley, I think for 30 or 35 minutes.
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Now, if somebody had put her immediately into a vehicle and driven her to the hospital,
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would she have survived? I don't know. But she wasn't given the chance.
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Having sitting with her in the alley for 35 minutes robbed her of that chance to survive.
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And there've been multiple cases and some of them were talked about in the documentary.
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That long response for that young man who was traumatically injured and the police ended up
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taking a very tragic call. How do you fix that?
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And when you start tapping into other emergency services as they want to help and save a life,
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the police are taking people in the hospital. Firefighters are transported people to hospital.
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But meanwhile, their specialized skills now are lacking. You might have a crime in progress.
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There's no police officers available because they're taking people to the hospital or a building
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is burning down, but the fire truck is busy transporting somebody to the hospital.
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Like this is a chain reaction that's making us unsafe on many levels.
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Right. And a lot of these other emergency services, our sister brother services have been
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tasked with this and they've tried to find solutions. Police officers get stuck in the hallway,
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with patients too. And I've seen police officers listening and I say, what's going on? They say,
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well, there's a car chase guy with a gun right outside the hospital here. And I go,
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you can, can't you go? And he, well, no, I got to look after this patient here with a psychiatric
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emergency. And I'll say, well, I'll take them. No, I can't do that. They have to stay. I mean,
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it's, they've actually tried to get out of this hallway waiting thing as well. There are peace officers in
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the hospital who could take over care of these patients. But again, the hospital is not interested
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in solving this problem. If it creates more work for them, they're happy to keep using other
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emergency services to bandaid this problem. And it's, I'm finished as part of the machine trying
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to fix it from inside. We're going at it from another direction now.
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Yeah. So getting to that other direction, well, I mean, in some assets, you want to see it fixed,
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but the other thing is reminding people, we still have our civic duty to each other. I mean, don't,
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you know, I think it's been trained, trained into it for so long that everything is the state's
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responsibility. If my neighbor gets hurt, I need to call whatever authority and deal with it. Or if my
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neighbor is being robbed and need to call the police, I don't dare intervene with the mugger.
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And we've lost that community and it's wrong. I mean, use some common sense. If the ambulance can
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get there fast, great. But in the meantime, see what you can do. I mean, you know, there's so many
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times now, like I said, don't turn your brain off, call 911. But let's say your, your wife or your
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husband has a, your grandfather has a stroke, obvious left-sided facial droop, weakness, slurred
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speech. That's a time dependent medical emergency that doesn't need pre-hospital care. Paramedics are going
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to arrive and treat him very gently. And if he gets suddenly worse, they're going to be able,
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but if he remains at home for longer than an hour with those stroke system symptoms and the window
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closes, it makes it very likely he could have permanent deficits. So if you recognize a call
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or a problem, a medical problem, and you understand that, you know what, he doesn't need a paramedic,
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let's get him in a car, have a pre-plan, have neighbors that you've talked to and said,
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you know, if something happens at my house, I can't get an ambulance. Can you come over and
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give me a hand and get granddad into the car? Phone him, get him into a vehicle, drive him to
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the hospital. It actually will make a difference to the outcome of that patient. So that's what we're
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telling people now in these community meetings. And Prentice the other night was a great example.
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Yeah. Well, and just some rudimentary common sense training. A person doesn't need to be a
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paramedic to know some of the basics. If it's a bleeder, get some pressure on it if you can.
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Yeah. You know, things such as that. AEDs are becoming quite commonplace and they have nice,
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simple instructions to guide you through. I mean, if a person's having a cardiac event,
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maybe you could do something again while waiting, but don't just stand there.
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Boy, I wish it would get here sooner. Yeah. So we're recommending in these town
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hall meetings and these community association meetings, get trained, form a local citizen action
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group. And we've got 18 of them now in Southern Alberta, groups of citizens in these different
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towns who understand a little better now what the problem really is. I mean, they've always wondered,
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they heard about, you know, these long response times and there's not an ambulance in town.
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They couldn't figure out why. Well, we spend hours talking about that and discussing why,
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and we connect them with other people who understand it. And they bring in guest speakers
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and they align themselves with first aid training organizations that come in and train everybody
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in first aid and CPR. So the people are now better informed and better able to make those decisions
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when, when a medical emergency occurs. Of course, there's going to be times where you can't move
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somebody. You've got to have a paramedic attend. Wouldn't it be nice if you could be certain they'd
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be there in those situations, but time and again, we're finding they're not. Well, with some of that
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confidence, maybe some people will be less inclined to call 911 in situations where perhaps it didn't
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warrant that. Yeah. You know, if your kid fell off the monkey bars and broke their arm, I'm using that
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example because I remember a niece that happened with once with an ex of mine and it was horrible
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looking. It was frightening and her arm was all crooked, but she's a young kid and she was in
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pain, but you know, we drove her to the hospital. She was fine. It didn't need an ambulance. Right.
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But now the first thing is to call 911. Well, hang on. Maybe, you know, I'm so old that I remember back
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in the late eighties, early nineties, when the motto for EMS was don't guess, don't guess, call EMS.
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And now we're telling people, you know, maybe take a few minutes and just try and figure out if you
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really do need an ambulance. Studies show, and I've done a lot of research and training in dispatch.
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So I understand how dispatch works. Studies show that people in a critical medical emergency still
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spend one or two minutes running around trying to solve the problem themselves. Grandpa chokes at the
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dinner table. Grandpa, are you okay? Are you okay? Can you breathe? Hey, somebody, come here. Grandpa's
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you might end up on the floor two minutes later before somebody actually says, we got to call an
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ambulance. Well, that's a situation where you're probably going to need some professional help.
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Wouldn't it be nice if it was available? So yes, I agree. Let's take a look at these minor situations.
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You've talked to any paramedic, you know, and say, what is the silliest call? What's the biggest
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waste of time you ever drove across the city for? They'll have 10 stories of people who called for
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completely inappropriate things. It's difficult. Again, with confidence and judgment is the main
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thing. I mean, we don't, we also don't want people, Hey, you know, you're 55 years old and
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you've got a heavy duty chest pain coming on your arms numb. You'll be fine. Call somebody to help out.
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Of course. But, uh, you know, again, if you've had a little bit of training time to think about,
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or even a preplan in your head, maybe you're more prepared to ration that through and raise it.
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No, this is really an emergency. I better call somebody. Again, I talk to so many people every day
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who say, I had no idea it was this bad. And you know, cause you've written about this problem for
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years, you, and I've tried to speak about it and, and get it on the radar. Uh, but again,
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everybody's afraid to talk about it, uh, who works in AHS and other people who even have an experience,
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a bad experience with EMS. They just want to forget it ever happened. Well, it's personal.
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They don't want to continue. They don't want to make, you know, cause it sounds like maybe they
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made a mistake and look at that dog bite call. It's still got people who are concerned being told,
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well, maybe it didn't sound, you know, worried enough. Scream and panic enough on the phone.
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That's not her job. You know, that's the dispatcher's job.
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Yeah. So part of your approach is twofold. You know, it's, it's letting people know,
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Hey, you can take care of yourselves, but at the same time, you also want to advocate because
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we've got something that's broken and something has come up a couple of times. Somebody also brought
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up the friends of Medicare and pointing out anybody who dares challenge the status quo,
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you are going to get the unions. You're going to get the AHS established, but they're going to come down
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and they're going to say, Oh, you want to ruin healthcare. You want to tear down our universality.
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We've heard all the usual arguments against it, but how can we push back? How can we get our
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politicians the courage to say, yes, we have to change the system. It's not working.
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Okay. So recognizing that healthcare starts in your community and reading relevant news articles,
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Sean Watley produced a really good article a couple of weeks ago. He talked about healthcare is not a
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right. It's an obligation. And I encourage everybody to find that article by Sean and read
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about, change your perspective about what healthcare is and recognize that your family,
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your loved ones, their access to healthcare is up to you. I wouldn't go to a hospital right now.
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I wouldn't. And I tell my friends, don't go without an advocate.
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Make sure you have somebody there who can walk you through it. But for the most part,
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we just try to inform people. We're not trying to blame anybody. Although believe me,
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you know, the blame belongs on the big machine, right? That refuses to change and lies. They don't
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tell the truth. And we've caught them in lies time and again. So find out what the truth is. Understand
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that in a lot of cases, it's up to you. Rely on your friends and neighbors and let's get these citizen
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action groups together and try to make a difference. That's my goal. Yeah. And that was a striking
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point in the documentary where the fellow from AHS saying, no, we don't discipline anybody
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for speaking up, you know, if they've seen concerns and they have problems within the system. And then
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should they cut right over to a paramedic and showed, no, he's been repeatedly disciplined
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for daring. So, I mean, they just lied ball-faced to Kathy Lee during the documentary.
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Yeah. I mean, in the paramedic community, that's an open secret that they're just not dealing with
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this at all. And there's, again, they have some more things coming down the pike. I got a call
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this morning from a paramedic. He said, they're planning to do a city-wide pick, which means
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they're going to allow paramedics to pick any ambulance they want, but there's not going to be
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any double medic cards. They're going to have an experienced medic with somebody who's less
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experienced. And I can see the point of that, but what they're also going to do is they're going to
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break up some really good partnerships. There's groups of paramedics out there, you know,
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partners who've been partners for a long time. They work well together. They do good work.
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And the fact that the system is so bad right now, we have so many people off on physical and mental
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health leave. The idea that you're going to break up working partnerships in order to spread out
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resources even thinner than they already are, that's not the answer. Breaking up these partnerships,
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single medic trucks is not the answer. They just refuse to deal with the real problems, which is hallway
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weights, flexing, massive flexing. Ambulances, your ambulance, where you live down there in the
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Pritis area, they frequently get in their truck at shift change and start driving. And if they're not
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doing calls, they're moving to cover from one area to the other. And they'll do that for 12 hours.
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In Calgary. In Pritis. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, yeah. And we talked about solutions at that community
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meeting the other night. Yeah. And, and there was FOIPs done by a paramedic showing the information
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and Pritis was striking because we have our own little ambulance. We have a, well, a little,
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it's an ambulance. It's the only stock one that we're in our little community that still has a lot
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of people there and needs and services. And over 1500 calls in a year of that ambulance to Calgary.
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Yeah. And not a single one in Pritis last year. There was one the year before. I don't want to go
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into that. Right. So an ambulance that does 1500 calls in total everywhere, but in its own backyard.
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Yeah. Pritis, I think is probably the most abused ambulance in Alberta. Maybe I pissed somebody.
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I said blame goes around. Right. But there were crews that used to love to work in Pritis. And now
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the reason Pritis was out of service on Monday night, I heard one of the medics quit, literally said,
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I can't do this anymore on this truck. It's too much. Yeah. And I got that message from you and
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I whipped up there and had a look, you know, cause it's a nice big building and it's all lit. And sure
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enough, you know, I took a picture, but it didn't really explain a lot, but you can see the two fire
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trucks and here's this, this ambulance sitting there, dark, nobody in the building, uh, no personal
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vehicles outside. So it's not even serving Calgary at this point. I mean, it's just wasted. And as you said,
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there's part of the other problem with these partnerships, they can't form, they can't develop
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if we have such a high turnover in an area like Pritis, that's rural. You need to know your way
00:16:00.800
around. It's a different skill set in a rural area as well. You need to get somebody from downtown
00:16:05.360
Calgary, driving around in the dark in the middle of the night when they signed up to work in Calgary.
00:16:10.000
Yeah. There's different local challenges. Interesting comment at that meeting. You
00:16:13.680
remember the one person who attended suggested Casey, I think I said, what's the business case for
00:16:19.120
having an ambulance for this few number of calls? I said, that's a really good point. Because right now,
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AHS doesn't offer an option other than an ambulance with two paramedics that are owned literally by the
00:16:30.640
central government that they'll, they have to go wherever they're told. But just imagine for if
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you had an ambulance with one paramedic in it, that was an AHS paramedic and you had a corps of
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volunteers who worked at normal jobs in, lived in Pritis and each signed up to do shifts to drive the
00:16:48.560
ambulance and be a partner and they could get some medical training. They'd have a class for a license so
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they could drive the ambulance and they'd be excited to go. That would immediately cut your
00:16:56.160
wages in half. Not only that, but it would also keep your ambulance in your community because
00:17:00.480
there's no way those volunteers would put up with being sent to Calgary for 12 hours. It's a brilliant
00:17:07.040
idea. It would keep your truck there. And that's how I started. Don't forget that I walked into the
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ambulance station in High River 40 years ago and said, Hey, I hear you need some help. And they said,
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yeah, if you had a class four, you could start tonight. And I said, well,
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and there's people who will do it. Like the volunteer force for the firefighters is huge in
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Pritis. There's a whole bunch of, they enjoy it and they're trained and they, and they, it's a social
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thing and they like contributing to the community and getting out and dedicating some time. Likewise,
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with a paramedic, if that opportunity is there, I got to admit, you know what? I've got a class four,
00:17:35.680
I could update some first aid credentials. I'm home a lot in evenings. I could say, yeah,
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this many hours a week. You know what? If you get a call, I could drive that while you.
00:17:43.040
And when you mentioned fire, there's a striking difference in the teamwork and the camaraderie
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and the leadership and the sense of belonging that fire services have that EMS no longer has.
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Every paramedic I talked to feels disconnected. They're, they never see their supervisor. They're
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run off their feet. They feel like they don't get any support. And let's face it, our leadership,
00:18:05.120
we saw a graphic example of that in that documentary. It's abysmal.
00:18:08.480
Yeah. Well, and it doesn't matter what trade you're in. If you're demoralized,
00:18:13.600
If you, you know, and, and the, the burnout, the PTSD, the, the frustration,
00:18:18.400
we're suffering from this. And, uh, you know, it's just drives me nuts. I've been writing about
00:18:23.120
this for years. And, you know, we see this, the great thing with instant traffic,
00:18:26.320
I can see which columns hit it out of the park and which don't. And, and EMS wants to do okay.
00:18:31.600
You know, but people pay attention. This should be grabbing your eye. You know, your, your elderly
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aunt could die because of this. You might, when you fall down putting up Christmas lights like this,
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these are warning signals, folks. I mean, it's going to get worse.
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And it really is a metaphor for a lot of other things that are wrong in our society.
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This is people taking care of each other. This is an ambulance service that literally 15 years ago
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was a premier ambulance service. We were in the top 5% in North America. We held great conferences,
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our advanced life support teams would compete in other, uh, countries and they would do very well.
00:19:06.480
We, uh, we were the top trained, top motivated, top managed, uh, ambulance service, I think,
00:19:12.400
in the whole country. And now 15 years later, look where we are. We have a giant central control
00:19:17.200
that manages everything. Uh, long response times, patients unable to get to care. It's, it's really
00:19:24.400
frustrating, but it can be fixed. Yeah. Well, and speaking of also workarounds and things,
00:19:28.080
it's funny with the timing and Maryland, one of our commenters there, Wilton says,
00:19:30.880
high level had a volunteer ambulance service for many years. And just recently high level has
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come up with something. That's a workaround. It sucks that they have to do a workaround,
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but at least it's a working one. And it's brilliant. Yeah. So explain that.
00:19:43.440
I mean, we've heard of a lot of Airdrie, Vulcan, uh, even Calgary, fire trucks, fire crews show up and
00:19:50.080
say, jeepers, this guy's really sick. We got to go to the hospital. They'll phone a doctor. They'll say,
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we can't wait. This doctor online will say, go take them to the hospital and fire truck.
00:19:58.880
What high level did is they bought a vehicle, a mobile rescue unit. Let's call it that an MRU.
00:20:06.400
Can't call it an ambulance because in Alberta, it's illegal to call it an ambulance unless it's
00:20:10.960
licensed by the, but they put fire rescue on the side of this ambulance looking vehicle. And now they
00:20:16.400
drive that to medical calls. They use it as a base to, you know, somebody who's lying in a ditch,
00:20:20.880
they'll pick them up and they'll put them in this fire rescue unit on the cot, on the stretcher
00:20:26.000
to keep them warm. And then let's face it. If the ambulance isn't coming, they'll phone the doctor
00:20:30.000
and say, look, this guy's sick. We got to go. And they will take him to the hospital. I think a lot
00:20:34.960
of ambulance or a lot of fire services are going to mimic that. They're going to start driving these
00:20:40.080
fire rescue mobile response units to these medical calls. Well, that's a great looking truck that one,
00:20:46.960
too. I mean, it's a tough thing. High level has special challenges. I mean, they could be running
00:20:50.960
out to Zama or Assumption or Fort Vermilion. And I've worked a lot up there. And I mean, there's some
00:20:56.160
people working in high risk environments, some strong weather conditions and isolated areas. So
00:21:02.400
you need some, some pretty well-trained people to get out there. A lot of those industrial sites
00:21:06.080
that take care of their people, they actually have better service in some of the small towns in
00:21:09.440
Southern Alberta. And again, we've talked, you've seen in the news, Vulcan. It's not Claire's home.
00:21:16.960
It's Coldale. Coldale has made it public that they want their ambulance service back. They want control
00:21:23.680
of their ambulance service in their community. Just to remind everybody, we had all that. It
00:21:28.400
wasn't, what, 2009 was it when the Stelbach government said, okay, that's it. We're going to
00:21:32.640
centralize this under AHS. Before that, all the communities had their own and maintained their own.
00:21:36.960
I mean, this, it was a solution looking for a problem and they created it. And to be fair,
00:21:41.040
a lot of those small communities wanted AHS to take over, figuring they'd get better funding and
00:21:46.400
get better trained staff. A lot of those smaller communities had mom and pop ambulance services.
00:21:51.440
There were some really Cadillac services like Highwood, High River and District Ambulance. They
00:21:56.640
did terrific work. There were some fire-based services in Lethbridge and Red Deer and Fort McLeod that
00:22:02.160
also did terrific work. So again, some of them saw an opportunity. Don't forget that
00:22:08.240
as soon as Calgary gave up the ambulance service to the province, they stuck several million dollars
00:22:14.080
in operating expenses back into their jeans that they didn't have to spend to prop that ambulance
00:22:19.200
service up every year. Not only that, but then they started charging AHS for the space they were
00:22:25.440
taken up in the local fire stations. Oh yeah. It's a, it's all about money. It's all about power.
00:22:30.720
It's all about control. It always comes to that in the end. So before I let you go,
00:22:34.080
I see you got your card here for your, uh, activism with the end hallway waiting. I don't know if you,
00:22:39.120
you know, I have to, I have to laugh. Uh, and you can show this if you want.
00:22:42.720
Yeah. If you want to hold that up, I could, let's see here folks. Can you see it? It's a postcard
00:22:47.840
size. I guess it's a little small for the camera and hallway meeting.
00:22:51.200
So when I traveled and spoke back in 2016, 2017, I used to hand out this card and it says,
00:22:57.280
end hospital hallway waiting. Paramedics don't belong in hospital hallways. Tell your medical
00:23:01.680
director, tell your professional association and your elected officials, you're a field paramedic,
00:23:06.960
not a hallway nanny. Now I am not saying that patients should just be dropped off
00:23:12.400
at the hospital and we leave. We need a better way of managing those patients in the hospital. And we can
00:23:19.680
talk a lot about access block and some of the problems in the hospital. I tried to help for
00:23:23.600
years. I was a good, good team player, but it became very clear at the end that the hospital's
00:23:29.360
not interested in fixing this problem themselves. They're willing to keep using paramedics to bandaid
00:23:34.480
the solution, which hurts my patients waiting for care in the field. So as far as I'm concerned,
00:23:40.080
hallway waits have to end or at least be managed so that 80 or 90% of the time we should be walking in,
00:23:46.800
leaving our patients there and getting back to work where we belong in the community. That's my thought.
00:23:52.560
Yeah. Okay. Well, before you take off here, so you're doing more stuff, you've got a meeting,
00:23:57.520
I think you said you did one in Cochrane the other night, you got one perhaps coming in
00:24:00.000
Okotoks and where can people find more information on what you've been up to then?
00:24:03.440
Yeah. So if you all over Facebook, at these small town meetings that we've had, they look for a local
00:24:10.320
name like Stetler, EMS Crisis Citizen Action Group, Strathmore Citizen Action Group, Cochrane,
00:24:16.960
Claresholm, Nanton, High River. We've done town hall meetings, we've invited lots of people to come and
00:24:23.360
speak. Lots of citizens have stepped up and they're investigating what they need to do to keep their
00:24:29.600
ambulance in their community. Cochrane collected 3,500 signatures, local townspeople delivered them to
00:24:36.080
the MLA. And I am confident that a lot of what the CMS Advisory Committee is doing right now
00:24:42.480
was spurred by just citizens getting together and saying, we're not going to put up with this
00:24:47.360
anymore. We want our ambulance back. Danielle Smith has come to some of our town hall meetings.
00:24:52.720
She's been prepping for two years for this and I'm very confident that she's going to make some
00:24:56.320
positive changes. Well, I sure hope so. So great. Well, I appreciate you coming in. It's always good to
00:25:01.520
talk to you, Dawn. We could babble forever. We've done that before. So it's great though to see some
00:25:07.120
action. We're seeing it in a time of transition and some changes into Smithson. She's got her other
00:25:10.720
challenges, but she wants to take this on. So hopefully... And we're all willing to help.
00:25:14.160
You know, paramedics, if you just let them go and put them to work, they'll light up.
00:25:18.800
We're very independent people. That's what we want to do. If you wanted easy money,
00:25:22.160
you'd have gone into the oil field. Well, I wouldn't say easy. That's a separate issue.
00:25:25.840
I don't want to knock the oil, but either way, it's certainly a calling, not a...
00:25:28.560
Really good seeing you, Corey. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, Dawn. And
00:25:30.800
anybody else, if you're looking for info, yes, look up Dawn Sharp or look at those
00:25:34.000
Facebook groups or even email me and I'll see if I can hook you up. And hey,
00:25:36.640
if you don't have a group in your area yet, start one up. Let me know. I'll be right out.
00:25:46.240
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