00:23:44.260of which I've been a member for more than a decade
00:23:46.900at a time when I believe that Canadian democracy
00:23:51.420and Canadian opportunity is being usurped.
00:23:54.160Okay, let's talk about you getting kicked out of caucus
00:23:56.760because you made reference to it in January 2021.
00:23:59.880one um people will know that i was very critical about the the government approach as well but i
00:24:06.760felt a lot of it was being driven from ontario that we had eight conservative premiers or allied
00:24:12.360with conservative policies and they didn't do anything different than what some of the democrat
00:24:16.760governors were doing in the states and i never quite understood why but i really felt like it
00:24:20.440was the ontario government taking the the strident position that they did kind of set the stage for
00:24:25.800all of the others have to follow and so i know what i was reading that gave me an alternative
00:24:30.280perspective but i'm curious to know why it is you decided to bring craig's with uh with your
00:24:34.680premier the time doug ford what happened a lot led up to to what made to my decision to publicly
00:24:42.520oppose my own government uncovered response but the catalyst was the second lockdown in in december
00:24:50.840of january of 2020 going into january 2021 where i realized beyond any shadow of a doubt
00:25:00.280that the toll the the collateral harm of lockdown has become unbearable in that we now started
00:25:10.680understanding or anybody who would take interest or or had a working cell phone would understand
00:25:17.080the kind of toll that the lockdown had on our health and mental health and so i authored
00:25:23.480a letter to the premier after exhausting all options i have been fighting against
00:25:28.760our covert response since probably may 2020 and perhaps in a follow-up question i'll get to
00:25:34.280explain what changed what turned my mind on covet covet is a very serious infection it can be very
00:25:40.360risky to certain folks specifically in older demographics those in congregate settings that
00:25:45.720approach end of life uh and for some reason it has a weird deviation to those with metabolic
00:25:51.720conditions but that doesn't mean that we should be locking down healthy populations and potentially
00:25:57.880making them sick and so there was a doctor from princess margaret hospital one of canada's leading
00:26:03.640cancer hospitals that warned that we have a tsunami of cancers coming because we are missing
00:26:10.600cancer diagnoses. The province of Ontario, by that time, has missed, in the first year of COVID
00:26:17.820response, missed approximately a million cancer diagnoses in comparison to the years prior.
00:26:24.540Ontario, for instance, in the first year, missed more than 300,000 surgeries.
00:26:31.320The Canadian Medical Association already came out, I believe, about half a year ago and said that
00:26:35.800more than four thousand canadians already passed away from the delay in in surgeries and just two
00:26:41.880days ago in post media there was a story about alberta that the access deaths among alberta's
00:26:47.880youths is just astronomical and those are not covet deaths those are uh addiction uh overdose
00:26:57.080mental health and and other types of deaths that were brought about by covet response and so
00:27:02.280So in January, and I would say that what I heard from parents who told me about their kid being depressed or being estranged from them or not eating or overeating, and I couldn't bear with it anymore.
00:27:18.140And I realized towards the middle of January that Doug Ford was not going to come around.
00:27:26.080I also heard from public health and I asked them, well, you're going to vaccinate your way out of this.
00:27:32.440But Moderna already said on this on January 12th, 2021, that its shot is only good for a year.
00:27:39.140So what's going to happen after the efficacy wanes? And public health didn't have an answer.
00:27:43.640And so that's when I decided that I wasn't going to be part of it anymore.
00:27:46.960And all I wanted to do is get a conversation started because there was no conversation.
00:27:50.780And so I set out the facts, I referenced my work and I said, can we please reconsider? And the proposal is let's factor the toll of COVID response into our public policy and perhaps reconsider.
00:28:03.780And what I proposed was that we beef up protection in long term care homes and congregate settings and that we focus on building up our health care capacity.
00:28:13.780capacity. If it's short, then let's focus on increasing our capacity and largely allow people
00:28:20.780to get back to normal to restore normalcy. Unfortunately, I was removed from caucus an
00:28:25.060hour and a half after the letter was published. But I have no regrets. I stood up for my
00:28:31.040constituents and I'd do it again, maybe earlier if I had to. You know what I like about what you're
00:28:35.940saying is you're obviously very widely read. You've identified the same issues that many of the
00:28:41.600listeners of this program have identified and uh what was interesting to me is i think it was
00:28:47.200tagged as misinformation that was putting public health at risk and i wonder if you've got some
00:28:52.160thoughts now about what was going on there because if i was able to read and find the information
00:28:58.240that you've just described and you were able to read and find the information that you've just
00:29:01.760described why is it that the chief decision makers were not able to process information
00:29:06.480the same way do you have some observations on on what's going on why that happened maybe they were
00:29:12.160unwilling to process it or decided to be willful blind to the information or decided that irrespective
00:29:20.240of such information their public policy direction would be different um doug ford was quoted quite
00:29:28.560often saying that he agreed with mpp roman babber on on the collateral harm of lockdowns um there
00:29:36.720was no question especially uh in in late 2021 when uh we went for our fourth or fifth or however
00:29:44.880whichever number that was that lockdowns are very very harmful it's just it's regretful that
00:29:50.960we weren't unable or or many people especially those in decision-making positions were
00:29:58.560scared to articulate an opinion and and that's really the catalyst to all of this and and this
00:30:05.800is I think why I'm here because it's I'm not the media and some of my opponents are trying to say
00:30:13.200oh Roman's running against COVID and lockdowns and that's behind us well first of all with respect
00:30:19.260that's not fair because almost 20 percent of Canadians are being treated as a second class
00:30:24.020citizens. The fallout from COVID is remarkable. Our kids have regressed. I spoke to a grade three
00:30:31.360teacher who told me that her kids read at a grade one level. We have excess mortality, obviously,
00:30:39.100that's not by COVID on the rise. We have a small business, if you're even allowed to talk about
00:30:44.060business anymore. According to the CFIB, an average small business accumulated an average
00:30:50.100of 180 000 of covert related debt people were wiped out or had to remortgage or sell their home
00:30:57.300and certainly all that is staying but but even beyond that beyond the fact that this is not over
00:31:02.420in the acute situation still ongoing by way of the segregation and the unprecedented discrimination
00:31:07.060that we're seeing in our country it's it's what led up to covet it's it's the covet response and
00:31:13.860the failure of all systems that were designed to prevent this erosion of democracy or to enable us
00:31:21.060to express ourselves that have failed it's all the checks and balances that would act against this
00:31:27.140this type of public policy error that that have failed and and and that is a greater conversation
00:31:34.260would you mind telling me what what you would do because i often get asked the question just
00:31:38.100for my opinion of whether i think we're going to go back into lockdowns and restrictions again
00:31:43.860and the thing that concerns me is that so many of our politicians still seem to think that
00:31:49.620lockdowns work still and still seem to think that those jurisdictions that didn't have lockdowns
00:31:55.220have worse outcomes uh we still haven't increased our hospital capacity which makes me believe that
00:32:01.380if we get into another and they're still not making therapeutics available widely um and so
00:32:06.820it makes me believe that if we get into the same situation in the fall with a new surge in
00:32:11.460respiratory viruses whether it's SARS-CoV-2 variant or some other uh some other virus that
00:32:18.340we're going to see them default to the same kinds of of processes and the same kind of shutdowns
00:32:23.460again and i i don't know if if that's a legitimate fear and worry how do you see it and how do we
00:32:28.980avoid that well if lockdowns worked so well then why were we still back in lockdown and and it i
00:32:38.740mean it would be amusing if it wasn't so tragic when they said that lockdown is working we need
00:32:44.820to stay in lockdown or lockdown is not working we need more lockdown um you know look i don't think
00:32:54.980that we're going to have another lockdown i think that the political appetite for that is gone and
00:33:00.740the popularity is gone in fact in ontario's election right now doug is running away from
00:33:05.380lockdown away from masks um away from even mandates it's a whole new duck ford um but i'll
00:33:13.860i'll leave that be for now look uh i i'd like to articulate this for the benefit of your viewers
00:33:21.220uh in may 2020 so it's okay not to understand what we're dealing with because yes it was a new virus
00:33:29.140and and it came from china and we saw remarkable pictures and and we saw the the princess cruise
00:33:36.340whatever that was and and so folks were rightfully afraid and um we weren't sure what we're dealing
00:33:45.460with and and this urgent need arose to to keep the population safe and and that narrative was
00:33:55.300fortified by the popular narrative of the day the political correctness of the day and and that
00:34:01.380political correctness was fortified by cancelled culture so even asking basic questions as to
00:34:07.140whether any of this makes sense uh was not permissible but in may 2020 the landscape has
00:34:14.180changed two things happened for me at least public health came in and told me that more than 80 of
00:34:21.380those that passed away were in a long-term care home so the response is this is tragic and
00:34:26.980unacceptable so please go out and protect long-term care homes beef up nurses beef up psws so you can
00:34:35.380affect good infection protocol and control but largely we know that regretfully the average
00:34:42.180lifespan in a long-term care home is 14 months that is not to say that we should give up on on
00:34:48.100these lives it should mean that we protect them but everybody else why don't you leave the rest
00:34:52.740of us alone and the response was well no because the wider transmission is in the community the
00:34:58.580greater the transmission is in long-term care homes which is just utter nonsense all it takes
00:35:04.500is one agency employee to bring covet from one home to another and god forbid half the residents
00:35:10.820would pass away and the second thing that happened and this is very very important i hope for viewers
00:35:16.180to appreciate in may we started getting all sorts of serological studies that suggested to us what
00:35:22.740percent of the population actually shows traces of antibodies to the virus in other words we started
00:35:29.940appreciating that the infectiousness the trans transmissibility of the virus is significantly
00:35:36.500greater than we thought there was a study out of princeton that thought i think it was princeton
00:35:41.540the thought that it was 50 times higher potentially in the united states but generally around the
00:35:46.420world we saw studies at about 20 times higher so for every person that was tested positive for
00:35:51.380covet and of course the testing was arbitrary and sporadic and different from place to place
00:35:57.220there was another 20 to 50 people outside the testing center that are walking around with
00:36:01.540covet and that to me was wonderful news because it meant that all the metrics that we're worried about
00:36:08.260are actually 20 to 50 percent lower the the fatality rate is significantly lower than we
00:36:15.060initially thought and for some reason well i know why but and i suppose i'll speculate in a minute
00:36:22.100instead of acknowledging good coven news there was a complete prohibition on good coven news
00:36:28.420we did not reassess the risk of the virus given what we've learned about the virus
00:36:33.700in late spring 2020 nor did we fail to properly acknowledge that children are essentially
00:36:40.260statistically thankfully are not at risk that also failed to happen and and and that's and that's
00:36:48.340that was a turning point for me at the end of may because the government would not retreat
00:36:54.500on the narrative that was that developed in response to covet in the first couple months
00:37:00.900that narrative was perpetuated for the 12 to 15 months subsequent to that you're right and you
00:37:08.500sound like you're quite influenced by the great barrington declaration authors and jay
00:37:12.420bhattacharya was that one of the things that was influential on you
00:37:18.580i felt that the communications exercise that was implemented with the uh great barrington
00:37:23.860declaration did did not go well um it was um it was it was a little bit complex uh it should have
00:37:33.460been simplified but sure the the general the the prevalent thesis which is protect vulnerable
00:37:41.220populations and and let everyone else be of course makes sense okay okay you were going to speculate
00:37:50.260on why it is that what you observed was not adopted in general policy. But I'll add one
00:37:55.800more to the list because you said you lived in Israel for a time. And that was instructive to
00:38:01.260me because Israel had been ahead of the rest of the world on doing vaccination. And we already0.67
00:38:06.520began to see in July of 2021, so you were already out of caucus at this time. But by July of 2021,
00:38:13.180it was pretty clear that the number of hospitalizations and deaths of those who'd
00:38:17.520been double vaccinated was getting higher and higher and that the efficacy of the Pfizer
00:38:24.060vaccination was wearing off. And yet the politicians still went ahead with vaccine passports in
00:38:30.640September, months later. And I'm wondering how you were processing that information at the time.
00:38:35.520And maybe you can give some thoughts on, again, why it is that that didn't get factored into the
00:38:41.560decision-making here? Politics. Politics is the enemy of all that's good in government,
00:38:48.780potentially. Politics gets in the way of everything, where unfortunately politicians
00:38:54.220put themselves first and are unwilling to admit an error. And that's how it started.
00:39:01.960In May 2020, towards the end of the first lockdown, Doug Ford, Jason Kenney, they're all
00:39:09.780hailed as heroes right they enjoyed massive popularity so of course they would want to take
00:39:16.180credit for the fact that they brought cases down not like it's a seasonal virus and we always see
00:39:21.860the same trajectory which doesn't matter which jurisdiction you're in lockdown no lockdown
00:39:27.460come end of may uh life gets back to sort of normal yeah it's seasonal and so and so they
00:39:34.260decided that they're going to own that success and then that meant that they couldn't change
00:39:40.420the narrative because they would have to acknowledge that maybe we didn't handle this
00:39:45.060correctly in spring 2020 and but nobody would fault them for that because nobody knew what we
00:39:51.540were dealing with but instead they had to stick to the very script that they themselves created
00:39:58.500and they were not able to come around in fall 2020 and say you know what we know more about
00:40:04.340the virus now we know who's really at risk we know that there's harm of lockdown maybe we'll
00:40:09.780approach this differently i'm not saying have no mitigation but certainly not locked down healthy
00:40:15.380people and so instead they continued with the same and and then in order to justify what they've done
00:40:24.020they had to add more fear and this was the vicious cycle that the vicious covet cycle
00:40:29.620that was created where you would see that you know there's there's fear being mongered by government
00:40:37.780and by media so folks are afraid so you need to react so you you and you introduce mitigation
00:40:47.140and and measures and and lockdowns etc and then of course we see the harm and some people resist
00:40:52.820so you need to justify it to introduce a little more fear and and then respond to that fear and
00:40:58.820so on and so forth and and by the end of it it became blatantly apparent that they have
00:41:05.860committed to this narrative of fear so much that they did not know how to retreat from it
00:41:10.980they were stuck politically because at the moment when they would say i'm done with this
00:41:16.260people would say but wait a minute why have you been at this for six months for 12 months for 14
00:41:22.900months and they could not live with that and that's just one of the factors that it went into
00:41:27.780the bizarre world that um resulted in such tragic circumstances for so many families and your
00:41:34.500analysis your analysis is very thoughtful and i like the way you talk about it because
00:41:38.980i think one of the issues that we're facing and i've heard this from a number of conservatives
00:41:43.220that they believe that this focus on covid might actually alienate that sort of centrist voter
00:41:50.340because we have to acknowledge that for the last two years people have been fed a lot of fear and
00:41:55.780there is a lot of um counter information that's going to need to get out there so that people can
00:42:00.980put this to your experience into proper context but no one's doing that like no one in the mainstream
00:42:07.460uh political role no one none of our chief medical officers of health none of our our
00:42:11.940political leaders are trying to to make some of the arguments that you are to bring people along
00:42:17.300and so i'm curious to know your thoughts now do you think that that we're going to be able to
00:42:22.180bridge that divide this quickly i feel i feel like when you go into some of the big cities as
00:42:27.460a for instance so people are still scared people are still wearing masks people are still thinking
00:42:33.060that they if they get exposed to koba that they're going to have a very very high likelihood of a
00:42:38.180terrible outcome and i wonder what needs to be done to try to bridge that divide so that we can
00:42:44.020all collectively move past it rather than constantly seeing the ping pong of politics
00:42:49.300come into play when some new variant arises you've got a stream of medical doctors who
00:42:54.740are calling for lockdowns and harsh measures how do we get past that
00:42:58.180well to start we allow for what i believe can cure almost everything that ails our democracy today
00:43:10.120and that's free expression and and i'm sure we'll get into that but fairness in the narrative
00:43:19.620objectivity and and balance in the media the ability of regulated health professionals
00:43:27.700to speak freely instead of being gagged and threatened by their professional colleges
00:44:18.700So I think that many Canadians that genuinely wanted to believe that this public health exercise made sense and thought that we are going to go back to the things that we enjoy doing, as they called it, have realized that, no, there was, in fact, a moving of the goalpost again.
00:52:00.660There were, in fact, a number of items, irrespective of how you judge,
00:52:05.680whether you agree or disagree with Patrick, that I believe that his opinion has evolved on within six months or so.
00:52:14.900And I think that's actually very dangerous for the Conservative Party. You should not be running to the right during the leadership and then pivoting to the left during the general election.
00:52:25.220You lose credibility with the Conservative movement and you open yourself to the attack as a flip-flopper to the Liberals, which is what they've done very successfully to Eran O'Toole.
00:52:37.460And so what I'd say is that's certainly a point of disagreement.
00:52:44.180I think that we need to stick to our principles, to who we are.
00:52:48.780During the debate two days ago, Patrick said that he supported a no-fly zone over Ukraine, which I thought was an astonishing suggestion.
00:52:57.060That means you have to be willing to shoot Russian aircraft, which could have disastrous implication for the stability of our world and for the welfare of our country.
00:53:10.460I am not in favor of potentially getting involved in a military exercise in Europe.
00:53:19.100I think that we have to insist on getting the parties to a ceasefire.
00:53:27.060Well, let's talk a bit more then about national defense if we can, because a lot of these issues are interconnected now.
00:53:32.440And I saw how some of this debate unfolded about what do we do about natural resources and the environment and our defense policy.
00:53:40.160And because of the invasion of Ukraine, I think all of these are now intermingled that part of our defense strategy and our foreign aid strategy is interconnected with our ability to provide secure energy to the world as well.
00:53:55.840And so let's talk first about national defense.
00:53:58.740What should be our approach on policy?
00:54:01.340So first of all, we are significantly below our NATO commitment.
00:54:06.920In order for us to meet our NATO commitment, we need to increase defense spending by 50%.
00:54:25.320And there may be a separate question on Canada's veterans who have essentially become an afterthought under Justin Trudeau by way of housing, by way of mental health supports, something that I deem unacceptable.
00:54:39.120But despite the fact that I'm going to beef up Canada's military, meet our defense spending, I would propose that while I recognize Canada's historic role as a peacekeeper, probably in the last 50 years or so, I think that we have so many challenges at home, starting with Canada's democracy, that leads many nations to actually question our country's credibility.
00:55:05.900And I don't think that we can restore Canada's standing and credibility around the world
00:55:13.340until we restore Canada's democracy and some of the key challenges that are facing us at this time.
00:55:18.380I want to give you a chance. You said you want to talk about veterans. I used to go to a fundraiser
00:55:22.700for Beit Ha'alchem and they supported veterans services in Israel. And it struck me that in
00:55:29.260Israel, they do have an amazing support system for those who've been injured in military action.
00:55:34.140and i i wonder what your what your thoughts are on that
00:55:39.340we we have a backward system when it comes to canada's veterans uh you know we're we're uh
00:55:46.300we're a generation of canadians that that has many veterans among them and those are veterans of the
00:55:51.420afghanistan war and i feel that by by and large they have been neglected and forgotten
00:55:58.700For some reason, they're not even qualified as war service veterans that denies them.
00:56:09.360My understanding is certain benefits, but I want to look into this again.
00:56:14.14025,000 Canadian boys and girls served in Afghanistan under very, very difficult circumstances.