Western Standard - The best premier Alberta never had

00:00:00.000 there are a few people who didn't become premier who are more consequential in the politics of

00:00:24.000 alberta than ted morton ted morton has just written his autobiography ted morton is with

00:00:31.120 us tonight welcome ted thank you nigel i'm happy to be here with you well great to have you ted

00:00:38.160 and it's a tremendous record of public service uh look let's just do a quick fact check for

00:00:44.800 people who were still in grade school when you were in politics uh we're all getting older so

00:00:54.640 ted morton was uh i think everybody knows you're a university of calgary professor

00:01:00.000 and that you're part of the famous calgary school of politics which informed prime minister harper

00:01:07.440 you also signed the firewall letter and i'm going to ask you to explain that because that was

00:01:12.720 25 years ago or nearly uh you also did a stint uh for policy for the reform party back in 2001

00:01:21.200 in ottawa yes you i mean it's a great thing to have on your resume you become a sort of

00:01:26.560 a scholar practitioner it's you know it also cured me of ever wanting to go to ottawa

00:01:34.480 okay people want me to go as an mp and i said no if i'm going to get into politics it's going

00:01:39.360 going to be in Edmonton. And you were elected a senator-in-waiting, so that could have so easily

00:01:44.940 gone wrong for you, couldn't it? You never got appointed, but... Maybe, thankfully, but I shouldn't

00:01:50.480 say that, but yeah, okay. Yeah, no, no, we want to elect our senators here. But I think even more 0.58

00:01:57.200 important for the purposes of this discussion, for 10 years you were in the bear pit of Alberta

00:02:02.900 of politics you held three top flight ministries energy environment i i guess they call it

00:02:11.940 sustainable resource development but it was the ministry of hunting and shooting and fishing

00:02:16.500 uh and uh and of property rights and then of course you were minister of finance

00:02:21.540 and you made a very serious run at uh becoming premier of the province

00:02:28.480 want to come back to that too but federally and provincially ted you've seen it all from the

00:02:34.660 inside i and i have the scars to prove it and you've got some funny stories i see as well but

00:02:44.460 well i've known you for nearly 25 years ted and i i think it was actually danielle smith who

00:02:49.260 introduced introduced us back in the corridor of the calgary herald editorial board but you

00:02:55.020 always struck me as somebody a little bit in the in the stephen harper mold who wanted not so much

00:03:00.780 to be something as to do something and that little resume that we've just been over is a record

00:03:07.180 of doing things maybe they weren't always as successful as you intended but you were there

00:03:12.540 because you wanted to see change and change in in the conservative mold and this is actually

00:03:21.740 here's a pre-release uh copy i need a strong and free it's uh that's the book and i guess it's

00:03:30.500 going to be available in bookstores throughout alberta next next wednesday two days time

00:03:36.340 september 25th yes september the 25th and uh i'm not even going to tell you what the price is

00:03:43.780 because at the prices offered it's a bargain for the information on the lore that's contained in

00:03:48.580 here. But here's the thing. It's a different sort of political memoir, Ted. What you so often get

00:03:56.180 is somebody's quest for self-gratification, a little malice, perhaps, and some self-exculpatory

00:04:03.360 paragraphs. And this book is not like that at all. It's more of a history of a mission by a lot

00:04:11.280 of people. Like when you go through the index, it takes a while, and you suddenly see, I know these

00:04:16.080 people this person and this person this person everybody who has had anything to do with the

00:04:20.940 grand canadian march or the grand alberta march the alberta march yes the alberta march is probably

00:04:26.840 going to see themselves or somebody they know very well in the index and then of course like

00:04:31.380 everybody will look to see whether they're in it and so forth now here's the thing uh when you

00:04:36.420 became an activist ted when all this started what was driving you was it senate reform

00:04:43.160 well in the beginning yes i've been at a deeper level i was uh i became aware in the first decade

00:04:53.240 that i was teaching at the universities that's the 1980s of alberta's history and the imbalance

00:05:00.520 between western canada and central canada the uh not just the recent imbalance but you know going

00:05:08.860 right back to confederation 1905 that uh all the other provinces got their natural resources

00:05:16.140 crown resources upon becoming provinces alberta saskatchewan manitoba did not that took a

00:05:23.020 25-year battle to just to get that equality and uh and the senate reform again with my american

00:05:30.380 background coming from a small state wyoming in the u.s i saw how the u.s senate protected

00:05:37.260 the smaller states to defend their interest and something that didn't happen here in canada so

00:05:43.900 the senate reform the reform party that was my entree i guess into alberta politics so ted

00:05:52.360 why did it matter to you you came from the united states you could have gone back there if you

00:05:58.840 like that system but you decided you wanted to change alberta why i think like uh thousands or

00:06:06.800 tens of thousands of other people that have come to alberta from other places i fell in love with

00:06:11.760 it uh we have the mountains the foothills the prairies uh incredibly beautiful province

00:06:20.080 a wonderful culture too i think it's uh very much a meritocracy uh certainly the alberta

00:06:26.960 the calgary i grew up in people didn't care you know where you were from what church you belong

00:06:33.440 to or no church or what if you could if you were hard working uh honest and committed they wanted

00:06:40.320 you on the team so i think that has been part of alberta's success uh part of the success in an

00:06:47.440 abstract way i guess for liberal democracies everywhere i wanted to i want to keep that

00:06:53.520 uh and i could see in many respects it's very much under attack even then and even more so now

00:06:59.840 So we have something very good here in Alberta, and it's worth fighting to defend it.

00:07:06.220 Well, I 100 percent agree with you on that.

00:07:11.080 What did we actually achieve in terms of Senate reform?

00:07:17.660 Zero.

00:07:19.540 The Senate reform thing, in theory, it makes sense.

00:07:23.940 It's not just the United States.

00:07:25.460 I've been to Australia.

00:07:26.280 i've actually spoken to the australian senate uh why canada wants what what us or at least western

00:07:34.120 canada wants what australia has it's a way for the less populated regions to articulate and defend

00:07:41.800 their interest in a legitimate way so in theory it all other federal mature federal states have

00:07:49.400 have a second chamber a senate or something like the senate to allow for that and to create the

00:07:55.640 the balance. We don't. And we've paid a price for it, both nationally, but particularly

00:08:01.580 provincially. But it's not going to happen now. The Supreme Court, when Stephen Harper was

00:08:11.280 prime minister, of course, he brought in some draft legislation to create voluntary, non-mandatory

00:08:17.780 elections for other provinces like Alberta has. Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional.

00:08:23.180 In my opinion, I've written about this, a very, very weak, and frankly, I think I better be careful what I say, a very weak opinion.

00:08:33.460 And then also in the mid-90s, the Croatian government passed something called the Regional Veto Act, which says the federal government won't approve any constitutional amendments unless all the provinces, or at least, well, specifically if Quebec doesn't approve it, Ottawa won't.

00:08:50.680 So Senate reform is dead. And I would, in theory, it's a great idea. It would address our issues, but it's not going to happen in my lifetime or your lifetime. I think abolishing the Senate would be a much more fruitful way to approach things.

00:09:07.500 And I think part of our plan was more Alberta in Ottawa or less Ottawa in Alberta.

00:09:16.460 And the more Alberta in Ottawa, that was Senate reform, and it hasn't worked.

00:09:20.700 I don't think it's going to work anytime soon.

00:09:22.860 So the alternative is less Ottawa in Alberta, and that's what the firewall is about.

00:09:28.680 And I think that's what Daniel Smith's Sovereignty Act is about.

00:09:32.480 Well, you wrote in the firewall letter that a referendum in Alberta on a clear question, such as on equalization, could lead to meaningful negotiation.

00:09:46.860 Now, we had a referendum.

00:09:49.700 And we got a clear majority on a clear question.

00:09:52.080 I thought it was clear.

00:09:54.920 Nothing happened.

00:09:57.440 No.

00:09:58.380 And so you could say it was a waste of time.

00:10:00.460 I don't think it was.

00:10:02.480 the clear majority on a clear question those aren't my words those are the words from the

00:10:06.700 supreme court of canada and that was their answer to quebec the quebec secession reference and

00:10:12.540 of course when when it's quebec that's knocking on the door and asking surprise surprise the

00:10:18.740 justices are much more pay much closer attention to keeping everybody happy so they said with

00:10:25.820 respect to a referendum to secede to for quebec to leave that if there was a clear majority on a

00:10:31.880 clear question, constitutional question, then there was a duty to negotiate. So that's the

00:10:37.920 Supreme Court that said that. That's now a constitutional precedent. And why wasn't,

00:10:44.240 in the Constitution, it didn't say just for Quebec. It said in general terms,

00:10:50.380 it applies to everybody. So did the liberals ignore it? Of course they ignored it. But it's

00:10:55.420 worth, it's a way of mobilizing public support and raising public awareness of the double

00:11:01.560 standard the hypocrisy certainly of the liberal party federal liberal party but also i'm afraid

00:11:07.320 to say the supreme court where there's one one standard or one rule for quebec and then a a

00:11:13.480 different set of rules for for the rest of us and i think well said i think it didn't result in yet

00:11:20.440 in changes in equalization i think it raised awareness consciousness and it's a fight worth

00:11:25.640 fighting we're still losing close to 20 billion dollars a year in net transfers out of province

00:11:32.280 to ottawa and most of it goes to quebec yes well i think that's one of those realities like the

00:11:39.000 legality of the income tax act that you're going to have a very refined discussion and probably

00:11:44.360 win the argument but in the end the system rolls along and they just can't afford to lose the money

00:11:49.880 so they find a way um that's my opinion not yours of course but here's the uh before we leave the

00:11:59.080 senate we've just had two alberta appointments and you said five minutes ago that abolition of

00:12:05.400 the senate might be a step forward and i look at the two recent appointments and i have to agree

00:12:11.560 have to agree seriously um what was there a message there well not only could almost no

00:12:21.800 albertans tell you who our senators are but i can tell you that in the caucus in the government up

00:12:29.240 in up in edmonton uh no caucus members or even cabinet ministers could tell you who could name

00:12:36.680 more than at the most one or two senators when we would go to ottawa you didn't if we had a real

00:12:43.000 senate you'd go to ottawa and spend time with your senators because that would be the forum in which

00:12:47.480 the smaller less populated provinces could articulate defend our interest but the senate

00:12:53.720 is meaningless it's just a uh a retirement home for uh well one of the the two most recent

00:12:59.880 appointees from Alberta. Nobody has, except you and I, maybe 20 or 30, don't even know who they

00:13:08.540 are. One's, you know, I'll be careful what I say, a very generous donor to the Liberal Party of

00:13:14.940 Canada. Surprise, surprise. And the other is a big crusader for LGBTQ rights. So, and he, I think

00:13:22.440 he's only 50 something. So he'll be crusading against parents' rights, parents' rights that

00:13:28.920 enshrined in the United Nations Declaration of Rights, the right of parents to choose the education

00:13:35.280 and be informed about the education of their parents. That would be our other senator for the

00:13:39.420 next 25 years. So, yeah, let's abolish it. I see. Well, the case for abolition makes itself. 0.91

00:13:47.260 Exactly. Okay. Before we leave the idea of the Senate,

00:13:54.920 The fact is that it is in being.

00:13:58.420 They do have some power, maybe not as much as they think they have,

00:14:02.680 but they do have influence.

00:14:06.860 Legally, constitutionally, they do.

00:14:11.480 Yeah, they do.

00:14:12.800 Now, one of the little-known facts is that when you were running for the Senate,

00:14:17.220 you had a volunteer working with you, a University of Calgary student,

00:14:21.680 who is today the leader of the official opposition, Pierre Poilier, he could very well be Canada's

00:14:31.520 next prime minister. So, for him...

00:14:33.520 Let's hope he is.

00:14:34.960 Let's hope he is, yes, of course. But for him, the Senate is going to be an issue. I

00:14:40.880 think something like 85 senators out of, what is it, 108 have been, 103 have been appointed

00:14:47.920 by the present prime minister admittedly they market themselves as independence

00:14:55.280 but they all get don't buy that i don't buy it either they all get the emails and they all

00:15:01.680 think the same way but otherwise they wouldn't have been appointed so what advice would you

00:15:09.520 What would you give Mr. Poilier, if he were to ask for it, on how to stick-handle important

00:15:18.160 legislation through the Senate?

00:15:20.360 Well, if the Liberal dominated, if Justin Trudeau's Liberal Senate tries to block policies

00:15:28.620 elected by a United Conservative, or excuse me, Conservative Party of Canada, majority

00:15:36.020 government led by Pierre, if they try and block the democratic mandate of the Canadian election,

00:15:44.740 that's a constitutional crisis. And the fault, all the positive is on the side of an elected,

00:15:52.980 new elected majority government, and it cannot be blocked by a bunch of appointed,

00:15:57.860 unelected, unaccountable senators sitting over there in their couple hundred thousand

00:16:03.220 dollar a year sinecures where they do whatever they can talk all day but they do virtually all

00:16:09.700 of a sudden they're getting all of a sudden again it goes back to the double standard and uh they

00:16:14.740 try it you know did they ever stop anything from trudeau and the liberals of course not

00:16:19.540 so it's the double standard and it would be a crisis and uh but i think uh i think uh pierre

00:16:26.580 or probably ever is up to up to handling that well i i certainly believe he is but it he has

00:16:34.820 shown a remarkable political acumen um in the book you talk about what you call the unlikely marriage

00:16:44.900 of rural conservatives and calgary conservatives to form the for the 40-year pc dynasty

00:16:51.620 you could make the argument and i think you do it's there that the marriage is back together

00:17:00.540 in the united conservative party under danielle smith but it seems less dependable now especially

00:17:08.680 after covid do you think that there i mean without i think danielle is doing a wonderful job

00:17:16.740 But if there was some other person in there, they would face the same party structure.

00:17:26.580 Is there anyone else who can keep these factions of the party marching in lockstep?

00:17:36.180 Well, all parties, and particularly all majority governments, are coalitions of different interests,

00:17:42.620 different geographic interests, different economic interests, different social interests.

00:17:47.440 So party unity is always a challenge. Alberta has historically, I think, been unique in the

00:17:54.180 last couple of decades where conservative governments were, well, certainly the 40

00:17:59.580 lost count was a 44 year dynasty where we the conservatives were able to win majorities both

00:18:06.400 in the cities and in rural. So that was the coalition that I'm talking about.

00:18:11.740 But there are obviously tensions in that coalition. COVID brought them out. Let's knock on wood that we don't have any, don't have another COVID type experience again. I think any premier, any conservative premier would have been hard pressed by the COVID because given the nature of our coalition, all parties are coalitions, the libertarians thought that Jason Kenney did way too much, way too many restrictions.

00:18:41.120 But of course, lots of people in the middle of the moderates thought he didn't do enough, you know, too much or not enough.

00:18:46.540 It was he got crucified on that issue. And I'm not sure. I don't think I would have done much better.

00:18:56.060 So I don't I hopefully something like that won't happen again.

00:18:59.880 But I think I would hope that the members of the caucus and the members of the UCP now realize that.

00:19:09.860 We can have big arguments inside the party and let's have those arguments because these are important issues and neither side.

00:19:16.380 Nobody has a monopoly on the right answer.

00:19:19.100 But what we don't need is two conservative parties again and dividing the conservative vote.

00:19:25.180 that's a recipe for electing, as we've seen, NDP or liberal governments.

00:19:30.220 And so let's have the arguments.

00:19:32.360 They can be strenuous arguments, but let's treat each other with respect

00:19:37.760 and accept that whoever wins the argument, whatever the issue is this year,

00:19:43.960 it's open for the other side to win next year or the year after.

00:19:46.600 But let's not get back into dividing the conservative vote with two different parties again.

00:19:53.400 And that was one of my big criteria, something that led me in not deciding to go to the wild

00:20:02.420 rose after I lost the BC leadership party, because I thought two parties is a guaranteed 0.98

00:20:07.600 recipe for liberals and indies. 1.00

00:20:10.220 And that's, of course, what happened.

00:20:12.160 So, yes, Ted, I mean, since you brought up your own run at the leadership, it invites

00:20:17.860 me to comment that the system we have of choosing leaders where there are three and because number

00:20:26.180 one isn't far enough ahead of number two you end up with number three seems to still be the the

00:20:33.220 party mechanism for choosing a leader um i do you feel that that's to me that looks like how they

00:20:43.540 lost in 2015. There are some other issues. But the fact that we had the wrong leader

00:20:53.720 in 2015, perhaps, was a big part of losing government. Or am I just misinterpreting the

00:21:01.240 landscape? What do you say? Well, I think by 2015, the conservatives were destined to

00:21:10.100 defeat. It had been the discrediting of the party over both certainly in terms of fiscal

00:21:20.500 management, but also in terms of social policy that the rural urban coalition had come completely

00:21:25.780 apart at the Wild Rose. You know, Prentice came in and tried to put things back together. But again,

00:21:32.340 And Prentiss, like the predecessors, like Redford, like Stelmack, the PC Party never endorsed or accepted the Western alienation issue, the firewall agenda, the fair deal, the demand for a better deal, a fair deal from Ottawa.

00:21:52.140 And, you know, by 2015, we've been fighting for that federally for over 20 years, back into the 90s, 25 years.

00:22:03.360 And federally, Albertans were voting overwhelmingly for that.

00:22:07.880 And you still had a PC party led by someone and led by three people in a row.

00:22:13.460 after I didn't win in 2006,

00:22:18.560 Stelmack, Redford, and then Prentice,

00:22:20.260 who didn't embrace the need for change and reform.

00:22:23.940 So I understand why people voted Wild Rose.

00:22:28.960 In fact, if you go on the internet long enough,

00:22:34.180 even on my Facebook page,

00:22:35.580 I think there's a picture of me

00:22:36.940 supporting a couple of Wild Rose candidates in Calgary

00:22:40.060 who had helped me in Northeast Calgary,

00:22:42.800 had helped me back in the one of the leadership races so the the pc party basically destroyed

00:22:50.000 itself by failing to embrace the issues that preston manning the reform party and all of us

00:22:56.800 have worked with preston the reform party argued for and we're winning big majorities across the

00:23:02.480 province for two decades the pc party and the people we kept well because of the screwed up

00:23:08.640 leadership selection process, we kept selecting leaders who were the least conservative of any

00:23:16.180 of the candidates. Would you go so far as to say that towards the end, the party wasn't really

00:23:21.600 conservative in any recognizable way? Well, I think Redford would have been a

00:23:27.240 liberal in any other province. I mean, the fact of the matter was, after the Lougheed years,

00:23:36.680 If you wanted to be in government, if you wanted to be in government and have be part of a majority government, you had to put on the Tory, the Tory blue.

00:23:46.380 And and so one of the things I discovered very quickly when I went up when I was elected in 2004 and went up to the caucus was that it was filled with lots of people who were elected as conservatives, but who, in fact, were not particularly conservative at all.

00:24:02.320 But if you wanted to be on the dance floor in Alberta, you had to put on the Tory blue silks.

00:24:07.300 That was particularly true of, I would say, a lot of the people from a lot of the PC MLAs from the Edmonton area.

00:24:17.120 And, of course, for reasons of self-interest, they became strong lobbyists for policies.

00:24:22.660 And this worked very well for Stelmeck that were not very conservative because that's how they were going to get reelected up in Edmonton.

00:24:29.620 So there was a problem.

00:24:31.960 Ted, we're going to be out of time here quite quickly,

00:24:35.140 but I want to bring you back to where we began

00:24:38.080 about the sort of the march of the generations

00:24:41.200 in pursuit of this conservative cause.

00:24:45.080 And the left has its own long march through the institutions.

00:24:48.340 I mean, you've probably taught that, the political science.

00:24:52.140 And it's in the appendix.

00:24:54.200 There are a couple of appendices to the book,

00:24:56.200 and the second appendix addresses that issue very specifically.

00:24:59.460 Okay, well then, so we have, and you are a large part of, our own Conservative in Alberta march from somewhere to somewhere.

00:25:12.900 What was the journey?

00:25:15.260 Who were the players?

00:25:17.260 What satisfaction do you take from seeing Mr. Poliev in Ottawa, Danielle Smith, Premier of Alberta,

00:25:29.460 What does the next generation do?

00:25:31.880 Just, you know, just talk about it.

00:25:34.020 Well, I dedicate the book to Preston Manning.

00:25:37.860 And I say very explicitly in the dedication right in the front of the book

00:25:43.340 that without Preston Manning, there would have been, you know,

00:25:48.320 no Stephen Harper, no Jason Kenney, no Danielle Smith, no Pierre Poirier.

00:25:54.240 Evra. This has been, he started the march, excuse me, he restarted the march that you can trace

00:26:05.360 back. Lougheed did his bit, another Manning before Lougheed. Alberta premiers, we've had a series of

00:26:14.260 very wonderful premiers, but everything they've gotten from Ottawa, they fought for. As I said

00:26:18.920 before, the beneficiaries of the status quo don't give up their privileges voluntarily.

00:26:23.540 You got to push, you got to take. And the newest version of that was started by Preston and the Reform Party in the 80s and 90s. And certainly my attempt to seek the leadership of the PC party in 2006 was an attempt to bring that movement into the PC party inside of Alberta.

00:26:47.100 But I failed. But I think the work that I did and and again, Preston, myself, you can't have leaders without followers.

00:26:58.360 You can't have leaders without supporters. And part of the reason I wrote this book was to send a message to everybody that helped me and work for me and supported me.

00:27:06.820 We lost the leadership race and we didn't achieve what we wanted to as early as we did, but we set the foundation and did a lot of the training for the success enjoyed more recently by Kenny Smith and Paulie Everett.

00:27:23.480 So I think the last sentence of the last chapter says something like, we want a fair deal.

00:27:34.260 We want a strong and prosperous Canada, but a fair deal for Alberta.

00:27:38.600 And the next chapter is going to be written by the next generation of leaders.

00:27:42.200 So part of my reason for writing the book was, one, tell people that our generation, what we did mattered and helped.

00:27:50.480 but also send a message to all the people we just named that keep on marching.

00:27:57.360 Remember, that was the slogan of Alberta's first senator-elect to be appointed.

00:28:05.360 Ted, it's a great story, and it's a story that shouldn't be lost.

00:28:10.960 You, I think, were explicit about that, and it was one of the reasons why you wrote the book,

00:28:16.300 so that we have a record that is both a testimony

00:28:20.660 and also an encouragement going forward to other young conservatives.

00:28:25.480 So, look, Ted, it's been great to have you on the program.

00:28:28.340 Thank you so much for taking the time.

00:28:30.640 You have a book launch event on the 20th?

00:28:34.620 26th.

00:28:35.900 Yeah, there's still room.

00:28:37.740 I think if you go online, you can find an online way to register.

00:28:41.880 And I think they're taking a Ted Morton book or something.

00:28:45.640 What would people type in?

00:28:49.420 Ted Morton, Book Launch, Strong and Free, something like that.

00:28:53.840 That'll get there.

00:28:55.020 Good.

00:28:55.980 I think we have over 100 people already have RSVP'd, and we'd like to get it up to 150, 200 people.

00:29:03.720 Preston's going to be there.

00:29:04.760 Preston's going to speak.

00:29:06.060 I'll speak.

00:29:07.040 And I think there'll be a lot of familiar faces.

00:29:10.500 It'll be a little bit of a celebration.

00:29:14.060 I think it will.

00:29:14.920 it's going to be quite a week between the your event the ted byfield event which of course the

00:29:19.320 western standard is pleased to support and also um let's not forget the justice center having their

00:29:26.520 george jonas awards on friday conservatives getting together over food and drink what

00:29:33.960 thank you for inviting me nigel thank you for being on the program ted it's been a great pleasure

00:29:39.800 or the Western Standard, I'm Nigel Hannaford.

00:29:56.520 If the name Ted Byfield brings back fond memories,

00:29:59.740 well, we've got a party coming up for you guys.

00:30:01.720 On September 25th, Toasting Ted is what it's called.

00:30:04.500 It's going to honour a great conservative

00:30:06.160 who published Alberta Report News magazine.

00:30:08.500 It's going to be bagpipes, singing, live auction stakes, speeches by Premier Smith, Preston Manning, Stephen Harper, quite a lineup.

00:30:15.380 The Western Standard is the final incarnation or the latest incarnation of Alberta Report that Ted Byfield founded.

00:30:22.180 And I mean, he was a great Albertan.

00:30:24.080 He really made his mark on this province and this evening of celebration for him is really going to be outstanding.

00:30:28.720 You get there, toastingted.ca, that's the website.

00:30:31.920 You can get your tickets.

00:30:32.820 This one's going to sell out.

00:30:33.820 I mean, again, if you want to see Smith, Manning, Harper, all in one spot, one night, be sure to get there.

Western Standard - September 24, 2024

The best premier Alberta never had

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript