00:06:51.200And that's the spirit that we need to call upon.
00:06:53.240And over the next few episodes, we're going to actually be talking about that directly.
00:06:56.620So given that we've recognized this sort of cultural difference,
00:07:00.880how, in your experience and with your contacts sort of all over the country,
00:07:04.660what do you think the rest of the country is thinking about this moment with Alberta?
00:07:09.820I think one of the things about Canada is that the provinces,
00:07:14.000the different cities actually don't spend that much time thinking about each other and that's
00:07:20.540one of the biggest problems right is like so when you say well what does Halifax think about
00:07:24.320Alberta generally they don't right and neither does Montreal and neither does Toronto and neither
00:07:31.340does Vancouver they're just like we're working we're focused on our problems and sometimes quite
00:07:36.000very tiny problems like everybody's really focused on bike lanes like everybody's everybody's having
00:07:41.960the same conversation about bike lanes and it's like hey maybe if we talked together we could
00:07:46.660come up with some solutions but in any case I think um this is a little bit of a wake-up call
00:07:52.160to a lot of people across the country of like what what's happening what what is this but I
00:07:57.840think the biggest reaction from most places that I've seen is just they're kind of flummoxed like
00:08:03.880we don't know what this we don't know what your problem is so we haven't taken the opportunity to
00:08:08.500really explain ourselves very well is what I'm hearing but also I think also
00:08:13.360Alberta is like you guys don't think about us and it's like everyone's like
00:08:16.240yeah likewise you don't know what it's like to be Newfoundland and we don't we
00:08:23.680don't yeah and so I think that's that's the context of the problem you know it's
00:08:28.940very similar to a lot of the discussion with the US is like well what do they
00:08:31.720think about us they don't you know they so most Americans aren't spending a lot
00:08:36.280time thinking about how are canadians reacting to this or when they are it's new that's a new piece
00:08:42.600i think the reaction i've seen in toronto is uh not infrequently especially late is uh yeah we
00:08:48.760understand there's some problems and it's like you're big boys figure it out you solve it so
00:08:53.080you solve the problem it's not our problem to solve i got to face the 401 here and i got a
00:08:57.880full day of doing that yeah so you need to solve your own problem and that's what we haven't done
00:09:02.600yet well i think especially for ontario coming at a time when ontario is facing very significant
00:09:08.360problems of their own and they're just like can we just not do this right now can we just
00:09:15.400worry about manufacturing and lake ontario can we just well i think if i can refine that a little
00:09:22.200bit it's not that can we not do this right now it's more like can you handle it like you know
00:09:26.680like tell us what you want but you need to tell us because we're you know don't expect us to put it
00:09:31.800on a silver plate for you and i think that's kind of the mistake that we've been making you find it
00:09:36.440in the words ottawa doesn't treat us properly but i think you're also pointing to a difference here
00:09:41.640right on when we talk about ontario we sort of conflate ottawa and toronto that's right and no
00:09:48.440and we don't talk about rural ontario at all we don't care um which again is part of that problem
00:09:54.040so when you're saying like ottawa doesn't do this yeah they they maybe they don't when we're using
00:09:58.680Ottawa as meaning the federal government but when you're saying how does Ontario feel about this
00:10:03.720what you're kind of asking is what is the general sentiment in Ontario and the general sentiment on
00:10:10.360Ontario is not the sentiment of the federal government it's correct those are two different
00:10:16.360groups of people um in in many ways because the other part of it is that they Ontario also has
00:10:25.160problems with the federal government. Quebec also has problems with the
00:10:28.640federal government. We're all part of a country where the provinces and the
00:10:33.140federal government are not of one mind. Absolutely. So that's, there's two pieces
00:10:39.800of that question that are getting smushed together. Well, and we need to
00:10:44.040sort that out. There's a couple of things that I wanted to comment on. First of
00:10:47.240us, there's a couple years back there was a survey and the survey question was
00:10:51.560which province other than your own is most friendly to your province and um which is kind
00:10:56.920of an interesting question but was what was fascinating in nine of i guess eight of the
00:11:03.000other provinces outside of alberta alberta was always number one or number two as the most
00:11:08.280friendly province so other provinces perceived alberta to be friendly to them exactly okay
00:11:13.000in the first spot or the second spot you know saskatchewan we were number one british columbia
00:11:18.120we were number one. Ontario, we were number one. The only one that was different was Quebec. And
00:11:24.760Quebec, we were the bottom of the list. And what I concluded from that is Ottawa really reflects
00:11:30.240Quebec more than it does Ontario, which is interesting. That was the first story I wanted
00:11:35.040to tell. The second story I wanted to tell is that in discussions of all this stuff, I was
00:11:39.920talking to a friend of mine who was from New Brunswick, and she was telling me about aquaculture.
00:11:45.240so not agriculture but aquaculture and she said that there is an incredible it's like the potential
00:11:52.380that oil has for Alberta aquaculture has for New Brunswick but the problem is is that's a federal
00:11:58.440jurisdiction and you know you so you have to go to Ottawa to get anything done and Ottawa is just
00:12:04.280no the word we're the department of fisheries we're not the department of aquaculture and so
00:12:08.620they just can't get anything and they're incredibly frustrated with that division of labor so the
00:12:13.840The simple reality is that in our own sort of way, right across the country, we have these problems that we're not addressing very well.
00:12:23.420And as you said, we all have our micro view of our relationship with Ottawa, and it turns out we have a lot of commonality, but only in Alberta are we saying we can fix this somehow.
00:12:34.520Well, I mean, Alberta's not the first and not the only province to have a separatist movement.
00:12:40.840Yeah. And I think the other thing is there's also a lot of challenges between provinces. So at one point in my career, I was the editor of the Atlantic Chamber Journal, which is the magazine for the Atlantic provinces chambers of commerce. And the really big discussion then was the trade barriers between Atlantic provinces. Well, that is still the biggest topic of discussion. And it does a long time ago. We won't have to get into exactly how long ago it was, but it was quite a while ago that I was doing that job.
00:13:08.120so again those kinds of you know there's there is we're not alone in seeing these problems
00:13:15.400um we're not alone in trying to address these problems um the question is is this the right
00:13:21.720way to address these problems well if i may that was the uh an example of that was the como case
00:13:27.960uh where uh the guy from new brunswick uh went across the line into quebec but i think he
00:13:34.120He bought nine cases of beer and I think three 36s or 326s, sorry, and brought it back.
00:13:42.000They got caught, you know, police pulled him over, gave him a $294 ticket.
00:13:46.560And he took it all the way up to the Supreme Court.
00:13:48.960And it was supported by the Free Trade Association, people saying, you know, we need to have free trade.
00:14:03.280ontario enjoying everyone said no we can't have free trade in this country can't we can't allow
00:14:07.920people to take beer across provincial lines and it always comes down to booze doesn't it
00:14:15.680i have some okanagan wine in my trunk just go the speed limit wait let's not get pulled over
00:14:22.240i you know but there are a lot of things like that and i think that kind of question of like
00:14:27.920again that jurisdiction part of the reason that booze is the problem is because that
00:14:31.280has provincial jurisdiction and there's and there's tax money associated with it so you can't
00:14:35.680take it across the border because then you didn't pay taxes on it and that's often what it is at the
00:14:39.840end of the day well unfortunately it's vested interest yeah and that's that's the fundamental
00:14:44.640problem and that's why here on a nation of people what we've been saying is there's certain problems
00:14:48.800in this country the politicians just can't fix and so we the people need to step up and fix those
00:14:54.640problems because you know they're they they they sign documents that say we're going to do free
00:14:59.520trade that you know they do all this stuff you know we have the new west free trade agreement
00:15:03.680but you know there's still resistance because of the bureaucracy because of vested interest
00:15:08.400and that's where we say because of lobbying like i think that's one of the challenges too is that
00:15:12.800often it's not that politicians can't do it it's that they won't do it there's not enough political
00:15:16.640capital to do the thing that they know is right and that they know that people want but that
00:15:22.000sometimes industry doesn't want and they don't take the risk yeah because that person with a
00:15:26.960vested interest is going to go put a bunch of money into digging up dirt on me or whatever
00:15:31.360so they don't take the political risk and that's part of why politicians can't deliver what we
00:15:36.800really need in this country and that's we argue that's why we the you know we as the people of
00:15:42.160the country that demand and want free trade we have to we have to put it in our in our constitution
00:15:48.880legitimately and we have to have an enforcement and that's uh we talked about uh enforcement
00:15:53.600guilds if you will and one of them was free trade so and and you know frankly i think it's
00:15:58.560it's got to have we have to have a system where people can enforce it because the politicians
00:16:02.800just won't and it's not their fault it's there's just a natural motivation to not do it well we
00:16:10.080certainly have inter-provincial trade barriers and we've been talking a lot about that especially
00:16:13.600with what is happening out of the us now that's at looking at everything at a national scale but
00:16:18.160really for like 20 years now you've been deep dive in calgary yes so in the circles that you run in
00:16:23.840just to bring it back home a little bit in the circles that you run in um what's their sense of
00:16:29.600like what what are they saying about the separation referendum about the separatists what are you
00:16:33.600hearing i mean i think it's there's a couple things that are really interesting is in the
00:16:38.480circles that i run in people don't really want to talk about it too much it seems like a people are
00:16:44.800seemed very hesitant to raise it um and i think that's for a number of reasons one is
00:16:52.320there's no movement for status quo right like you're not like i'm like i'm pro nothing right
00:16:59.760so it's there's hard to get passionate about that um and so then there was a really big lag
00:17:05.680in the discussion where people the people who wanted to talk about it were the people who
00:17:09.040wanted change which makes sense um and i think a lot of that sentiment is outside of the city i
00:17:17.280don't think a lot of it is inside the city and i think then by the time people were willing to
00:17:24.240talk about it there was so much emotion tied to it that it was it became hard to have discussion so
00:17:30.240again it was like we don't talk about this in polite company kind of feeling so i i would say i
00:17:34.960In the communities that I travel in, there's not a lot of discussion about this and people seem quite hesitant until they think that they know what you think, but they don't want to say anything until they already know what you think, which makes it hard to have a conversation.
00:17:55.660I mean, I think there's other things that are less like that, but I think, again, it's touchy and it's hard.
00:18:04.460And I think part of the reason that it's hard is that there's a lot of people who are like, I just don't want to get this.
00:18:10.480I don't want this either side of it to get in the way of getting things done.
00:18:16.200I don't want the discussion, no matter what my opinion is, I don't want this to be a barrier to a continued relationship with a person or a company or a politician.
00:18:29.020I just don't want to, no matter what, I don't want my opinion of this to ruin my relationship and my ability to get business done.
00:18:38.460And so would you say they're experiencing it as more of an irritant than a question that really needs to be answered or just like it's hard to tell?
00:18:46.640I mean, we're asking you what other people think.
00:18:48.380You're asking me what other people think.
00:18:49.680And my basic answer is no one wants to see what they think.
00:18:53.980The other part of it is I think that I would say yes, that for a lot of the people that I deal with, their main thing is this seems like a distraction.
00:19:05.380This is getting in the way of conversations we need to have.
00:19:09.300We're having this conversation instead.
00:19:11.580And this wasn't on my agenda of conversations to have.
00:19:15.260If I can jump in, there's just some statistics on it.
00:19:18.040that back in January of 26, and this was, I believe it was Abacus,
00:19:24.14029% of Albertans said that they were either definitely going to vote to leave
00:27:01.440We know what, you know, that's a phrase that resonates so much that you don't have to say,
00:27:07.020well, what do you mean by Western alienation?
00:27:08.180Everybody knows what you're talking about. And so I don't think there's any I don't think there's a lot of chance that Western alienation goes away on either sense in the sense that I don't think that alienation is going to stop no matter what comes out of this referendum.
00:27:28.560the feeling that we're no one is paying attention to the needs of this province but i also don't
00:27:34.800think that it will stop the movement to address western alienation from within this province
00:27:41.360so i i'm not as concerned as you about that element that this tars everyone with one you know
00:27:47.600we all get tired of the same kind of thing i think that i think that it hopefully indicates
00:27:57.760there are significant challenges here and you can't work through those challenges if you just
00:28:06.080say well i'm taking my ball and i'm going home right what did you say earlier about divorce
00:28:10.640yeah well i mean i didn't want that for supper let's have a divorce yeah like i mean i think
00:28:15.600that's around the question of like you know there are harms of asking the question right you know
00:28:22.720this idea that well there's no harm asking there is often and this is not the only case but this is
00:28:27.600a case of there is a harm of asking there is a harm of asking and my analogy which is not a
00:28:32.960perfect analogy is if you don't want to get a divorce don't float it right like that's doesn't
00:28:39.360help the situation now you tell me yeah yeah yeah um but i think that question too of like
00:28:47.680if we've we're at this point we have asked the question we are asked we are in the process of
00:28:52.480asking the question where do we go from here we don't have the answer yet but we have a sense of
00:28:57.600what the answer is probably going to be from this side what's how does that come across to the other
00:29:06.560partners in this marriage right and and i i actually like what you said earlier about this
00:29:12.080is the wrong question so we're not asking the question about how do we fix the relationship
00:29:17.520between alberta and in fact all of the provinces and the federal government instead of asking that
00:29:23.520question we're asking the very hard question about we want to leave and and so uh and and
00:29:29.840in this national nation of people podcast we're going to be talking about strategically what is
00:29:35.280the right question and how do we transition from this i'm out of here i'm talking up my bag and
00:29:41.040going yeah you know going home somewhere else to let's work it out how do we how do we actually get
00:29:47.200there and well and and is there agreement on what the problems are because i'm not sure i don't know
00:29:54.000if there is agreement within alberta on what are the primary problems are they socks on the floor
00:29:59.600like are they small problems or are they big fundamental problems is it i didn't like dinner
00:30:04.960or is it i fundamentally feel like there is a lack of respect those are different types
00:30:10.400of problem in the relationship and i'm not sure that there is agreement within alberta of what
00:30:18.160are the problems let alone what are the solutions i think that you were right when you said that
00:30:22.800in alberta we make the mistake of of taking the the uh the attitude of the ottawa elite particularly
00:30:30.560the liberal party and then trans trans you know transmuting that all over the country and saying
00:30:35.600that's how everybody and as evidenced by the survey that i talked about that's not what's
00:30:39.680happening that albertans are actually well respected right across the country and so it's
00:30:44.560amazing that you know people in new brunswick view us as i think we were number two in the in the
00:30:50.720friendly provinces you know that's amazing and it's because there's so many people from there
00:30:55.040getting jobs here and well they're getting jobs here and they do business here like alberta gets
00:31:01.040stuff done and we get stuff done with all sorts of people um and that's great let's not lose that in
00:31:09.440a discussion about what are the very real challenges facing this province and business
00:31:15.040here and the relationships and that's part of us asking the audience to think strategically
00:31:20.480because right now as we said you know that the proponents they're not necessarily thinking of
00:31:25.040the long term they're just thinking of there's a there's a there's a there's a finish line there
00:31:28.480we got to get across that finish line yeah and so we as the citizens we need to think for ourselves
00:31:33.920and think strategically and say okay what are the problems and maybe start having those discussions
00:31:38.320instead of just saying, I don't want to talk to that person, you know, just to say, what are the
00:31:42.260problems and how would we actually do that? And we've had a number of episodes where we actually
00:31:45.980talk about like the transfer payments. We actually talk about solutions and they're not that far
00:31:52.280away. You know, we talk about unemployment insurance. Well, if we, as an example, if we
00:31:57.720were to vote against the constitution and restarted that, well, we can take, we have the full right
00:32:04.760The Supreme Court decided it. That's a provincial jurisdiction. We gave it up, and then the 82 Constitution, we take it back, and that's $5 billion that will come back to Alberta.
00:32:14.880You know, put that into health care. That's something that people can actually get and feel and benefit from.
00:32:19.680And just because I want to, you know, show all the angles of the conversation that we're having, I think from the viewpoint of the people that want to separate right now, that it's that they have been sort of raising their hand, being like, hey, we have a problem.
00:32:36.760Hey, we have a problem. And it's been like ignored by the federal government, by Ottawa, certainly over the last 10 years or so.
00:32:45.460So I do think that a lot of people out there might be feeling like they've done a lot to express what their concerns are.
00:32:53.040But what seems apparent to me is just in the day-to-day-ness of most people's lives, we actually haven't done that job very well even with our neighbours.
00:33:03.180And maybe in Calgary proper, where we've brought everyone on board to define what is the problem and why is it so important that we deal with it right now and in this way.
00:33:14.740I mean, I think that most people in the day-to-day running of their lives, I don't think this is a controversial statement, don't think about the Constitution at all.
00:33:29.240Some people don't even know we have a Constitution.
00:33:31.260And so I think that kind of question of, like, what are people actually worried about in their day-to-day lives, it is not transfer payments.
00:33:43.700It is right. There is a very particular time in their life where they might be worried about that. And, you know, they're usually at that time more focused on like, how do I pay my mortgage? Then what is the administrative setup of the AI payments? Right. So again, it's I think the vast majority of people are just like, just make it easier for me to do things.
00:34:07.960i want politicians and bureaucrats to make my life easy i want it to be easy to get my garbage picked
00:34:16.120up i want it to be easy to send my kids to school i want it to be easy to go to the hospital i want
00:34:21.560it to be easy to get my passport you guys figure it out but if i may though the our our sort of
00:34:30.360back of our mind thinking isn't balanced either so you know for example we have over our history
00:34:37.080had some significant successes in changing the, you know,
00:34:40.860changing the political structure, the constitutional structure, call it that.
00:34:44.740And the two that I think of as number one, in 1931,
00:34:48.040we actually got resources, which we did not have
00:34:51.000when we were first, the Resource Transfer Act in 1931.
00:34:56.460You know, we didn't have that in 1905 when it became.
00:34:59.440The one that I was involved with directly was the crow rates.
00:35:02.620that there were preferential rates that basically pushed us to to take our agricultural products and
00:35:10.400ship them in raw form to southern Ontario get processed and then shipped back so we got the
00:35:14.900Kellogg's cornflakes back from our own corn next door I mean it was crazy but we got that fixed
00:35:20.700and there's been a whole bunch of other things now we argue in on this show that that kind of
00:35:24.900stopped because of the 82 constitution but we did have successes and we could have more successes
00:35:30.960if we weren't if we didn't have this legal binding thing that we didn't even agree to
00:35:35.600and so that's probably yeah and just in case uh just so that we also make sure we cover everything
00:35:42.500yes that we were looking to cover as far as statistics go because there's lots of reasons
00:35:46.420why yeah you know we got here and uh you know it is important i think to think to think about what
00:35:51.260our neighbors care about especially at a time when you're trying to win votes are there any
00:35:55.340more statistics you want to go over today randy well i think to your point that you know people
00:36:00.260view it from a very personal perspective and the the um you know 44 percent um of households feel
00:36:07.640that if we were to separate their household economics would be worse and that then so they
00:36:13.020they that's that's a big negative thing um you know they also look at uh at the risk factor going
00:36:19.600up uh you know they there's one incredible statistic that i found that uh actually frankly
00:36:26.660scared me a little bit and the question that was asked was uh in an independent alberta uh would
00:36:33.220the u.s compel alberta to join uh to join the united states and this so this is basically the
00:36:41.060fear and 73 percent felt that the united states would use political means to force us to join them
00:36:48.50077 percent said they would use economic means and which I found astonishing 57 percent of people
00:36:58.080believed that they would use military means and I mean I think that's part of the question right
00:37:04.420is is the idea that if Alberta was independent would it become part of the U.S. and and there
00:37:10.860are varying views on yes or no but also is that good or is that bad and I think part of the question
00:37:15.860is well so if alberta becomes part of the u.s does it become texas or does it become puerto rico or
00:37:21.620does it become venezuela exactly and those are three very different outcomes don't forget cuba
00:37:28.500yeah well they're not yet part of us like venice that okay you you technically are your own but
00:37:35.380we're gonna control your oil right right so there are there are different views on what that might
00:37:42.660what that would be most likely to look like and that that is that now we're operating in the space
00:37:48.740of fear and conjecture not within the spaces of facts right you're so a lot of these statistics
00:37:55.860are yes they're just statistics on what do people feel right and that's a changing that's a changing
00:38:04.820space but that's but that's risk oh absolutely and that fear and that belief changes what you
00:38:11.140think is the best path forward exactly and i so i'm proposing that the external increase in risk
00:38:17.940through you know how the united states has changed they're a different approach i mean
00:38:21.940we were talking about a moment ago that uh you know in in trump's uh uh speech at the united
00:38:27.220nations now i know he throws out statistics that don't make any sense but he said that he controls
00:38:32.10060 of the world's oil and if you do if you run the numbers that's basically well he's invaded it
00:38:39.540you know took over venezuela actually took 65 billion barrels uh he is 100 years yeah exactly
00:38:47.460so they should be able to get rid of all that uh you know he started bombing iran which is
00:38:52.420i think iran is number three in terms of total reserves he's got a cushy relationship with
00:38:57.620saudi arabia they're number two and guess who's number four and so in his 60 he's including us
00:39:05.140already in his mind well and iran and there's a few yeah there's a few pieces there that aren't
00:39:10.500so again i think all of these things are the context of this discussion in alberta
00:39:16.740um and the question is how do they change how people view but also and then what and then what
00:39:25.300um that's really to me and to a lot of people that i talk to
00:39:30.020they're less focused on october 19th and they're more focused on october 20th what happens after
00:39:39.340this notwithstanding that it may take a long time to count these votes because we don't have enough
00:39:43.000people counting but um you know what happens next is really i think where a lot of people are
00:39:49.480focused and that's all in a context that there is a solid majority of people that recognize that
00:39:57.260there is a problem and and and inherently in that point is that we're asking the wrong question
00:40:03.460so that's what we're actually going to be talking about on our next episode of a nation of people
00:40:08.620and i look forward to it and thank you so much kata for your time today and for being willing to
00:40:14.040sort of cross the the the polarization spheres to have conversations with people that might have
00:40:20.240different views like it's just so um courageous and open-hearted of you to come here and and and
00:40:25.300you know, share what your experience of Calgary is in the middle and the majority of people.
00:40:30.320I think that that's a two-way street, right? That kind of idea of like, I do not have a background
00:40:35.800in constitutional law. I don't understand a lot of the context, but I think that that area of
00:40:46.060feeling and this is just such a beautiful province and such a fantastic city and wonderful people do
00:40:55.120our best when we are optimistic about the future and i hope that whatever comes out whatever happens
00:41:00.640on october 20th we maintain that optimism about our ability to fix problems so we've had this
00:41:06.400conversation today here at nation of people so that you don't have to do that at home
00:41:10.240so you can just have you'll sit side by side in the car and just talk about other things
00:41:15.760thank you again thank you very much alberta's strong activist voices can be catalysts for0.58
00:41:22.320change. Rather than choosing a hill to die upon, maybe there's an opportunity here to think
00:41:27.960strategically. This province has historically found middle ground solutions that unify Albertans and
00:41:34.400also fix problems. So what is a middle ground solution? And what is the dead fish, the change
00:41:41.220of topic that we can throw on the table that sort of stops all of the back and forth and gets
00:41:46.720everybody to focus? What's the reward? How can we unify Alberta to fix Canada?
00:41:52.320that is the topic for the next episode join us at a nation of people for a proposed action plan
00:41:58.160and be prepared to share it with your friends