The Cory Morgan Show： A Climate Crisis and the future of Alberta
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Summary
In this episode of The Cory Morgan Show, I talk to Kevin Lacey from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation about the recent Equalization Referendum, municipal elections across the province, and the future of Alberta's energy sector.
Transcript
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Welcome to the Cory Morgan Show. First one now, post-equalization referendum, municipal
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elections across the province, Senate election, all that good stuff. I'm going to be talking to
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Kevin Lacey from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. He's the Alberta Director. He's going to come on
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a little bit and talk about their campaign on the equalization referendum and how things look with
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our new governments in Edmonton and Calgary and throughout the province. To start with,
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We've got a great membership with the Western Standard.
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James has been getting better and better equipment
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And we've got to thank those who've taken out those memberships
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used to be going to get delivered to your doorstep.
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And if you're following us on our social media channels,
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all those things they say on the social media giants.
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The Western Standard is filling that void for you,
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and you can see how Dave and Derek and I all discuss that.
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I want to speak on Alberta's oil field, our energy sector,
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that has an opportunity being lost as we speak.
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And now that we've got the double blow of two anti-energy mayors
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it's already been tough to draw investment into Calgary and Edmonton,
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You have to remember, he was the federal energy minister
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replacement, you know, Jody Gondek, she was the one that in the head wanted to replace him.
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She won it decisively. The voters came out on us. But the very first thing, very first interview,
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Jody Gondek gets out and does, says she wants to declare a climate emergency. That is job one. You
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know, a whole month of campaigning, we never heard about that. But now it's job one to declare a
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climate emergency. And she says, we've got to move past oil and gas. Okay. So she's right into
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of virtue signaling bullshit right off the bat.
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Calgary's downtown, we've probably heard about it before,
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Oh, there's some energy things and other factors coming in.
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Gondek is the one that NCI has passed the torch to,
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probably another 20% of that downtown is actually empty.
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It's just that it's being held by long-term leases,
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I never have to share an elevator with anybody around here.
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The other 50%, the bulk of them are still energy companies.
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she's helping them make up their mind a lot more clearly.
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shut down their coal and nuclear generating capacity,
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this is what it leads to. And what's it led to? Massive spikes in the price of coal, oil,
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and natural gas, which in some ways can be good for Alberta because we have all of those things.
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But guess what? We can't get it to market. And we can't get investors to come in and invest and
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develop it because they don't know if they're going to be shut down at any given time or taxed
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to death by some lunatic like Gondek. But Gondek does have a plan. Oh, she wants to fix downtown.
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And if you haven't been downtown lately, I tell you, it's something. It really is. I think every
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Calgarian really, I think they should have come down to have a look before they voted in the
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election. But there's still time to get down there and have a look at just how bad it's getting down
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here. And she says she's going to partner with the arts community and the creative community to fix
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up the downtown. Oh, that's wonderful. That's what we need more hipsters. They're going to pay the
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bills. They're going to fill those office towers with art galleries. And people are going to come
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down here and move down here. And look at all the creative stuff that they're going to be drawn to
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come and see. These hipster artists can go down the streets and make dioramas and wind chimes out
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of the discarded syringes. They're laying on the sidewalks. They can finger paint with the human
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feces that's in the alleys. There's some things that are keeping downtown empty and Gondek won't
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talk about them. It's a dystopian nightmare right now. It's overrun with addicts. It's a mess. It
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smells of human discharge down there. And she thinks that the arts community is going to fix
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this? Hey, we want to welcome every injection of creative ideas. I mean, the oil companies aren't
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going to fill all these buildings up again. We do know that. But they're going to fill the bulk of
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it. They always have, or at least they could. But if you're not going to look to that, you're not
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going to look to the asset you already have, you're done. We can only have so many coffee shops,
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craft breweries, and little antique shops to sell typewriters to hipsters to sit in the coffee shop
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and pretend to write something for a blog that nobody reads. Gondek is not going to recharge
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downtown, and we've got to give her a reality check on this. The world is passing us by. We
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could be paying off our debt. We could be employing all our Albertans. You talk about economic
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diversity. The best way to do that, you want to bring in more business. It's not public art that
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brings them in. It's affordability and tax rates. I mean, standard living is important too when
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you're going to bring a head office in. And the standard living is not good when you've got to
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walk down meth land to get to your office. You got to clean that up. You got to keep the tax rates
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low. And we do have a great skilled workforce. We got the mountains on our doorstep. We got all
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these offices here, we do have opportunity. Alberta used to have what was called the Alberta
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Advantage, but that wasn't just oil and gas. What it was was a business-friendly climate. We were
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saying, hey, take your investment here, bring your employees here, and they're going to make a great
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life for themselves. They're going to be prosperous, and we're going to do okay, and it worked,
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and it worked, and we were far more diversified from oil and gas now than we were 20, 30 years ago
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because other companies came in, but the oil and gas provided an anchor, a stable revenue source,
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It's bad enough that the prime minister doesn't.
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So no, this municipal election went poorly for Calgary
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And we're going to find out in the long run here.
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They're all a bunch of union lackeys for the most part,
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I mean, there might be some common sense hiding among them
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because we've got some real big challenges coming up.
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You know, COVID-19 has thrown everything for a loop.
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and it's going to be a long four years under Mayor Gondek.
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the Alberta Director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
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He'll be a little friendlier than me on the subject,
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though I imagine his conclusions have got to be pretty similar.
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Nobody with a little bit of fiscal common sense
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can look at this picture right now and think it's a good outcome.
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You've gotten your rest after a couple of days of interpreting and digging
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and miring through what electoral data we have at this point or don't have after the big
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Alberta municipal elections. So thanks for coming in to lend your interpretations here.
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No, thanks for having me. I still have some signs to pick up though yet too, so it's not all over
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yet. Yes. Well, you guys, I guess I'll start with that. You campaigned very hard. We had a number
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of advocates, you know, speaking out a referendum on equalization. This was something pretty unique
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for Albertans. Perhaps you could speak to what you felt was the outcome. Was it what you were
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hoping to see? Yeah, it was. Look, our organization for the last 25 years has been campaigning for
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changing this equalization formula. And so when the referendum came up, we really thought after,
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you know, mouthing off about the equalization program for so many years, it was time to put
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our money where our mouths were and really jump in with both feet. And as a result, we ran a full
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campaign with signs and voter contact and advertising and all that to try to persuade
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voters to vote yes. And the reason why we did that is because the federal government does not
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listen to Alberta. And to kind of expect that if we were going to keep doing the things we were
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doing, then we were probably going to keep getting what we were getting. And we needed at least a 50
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percent vote on this equalization referendum to try to make a real difference and to try to force
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the federal government to listen to Alberta no matter who's in the premier's chair. And so that's
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why I think the results were actually positive. I think we are going to see a majority of Albertans
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who've gone to the polls, who have voted for constitutional, that they believe equalization
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should be removed from the constitution. This is the most significant vote on the constitution
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in English Canada since the Charlottetown Accord. And I think as a result now, the federal government
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has a duty to hear Alberta out. And as we head into negotiations on equalization in 2024,
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they'll finally have to listen to what Alberta says rather than try to sweep it under the rug
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yeah well and people have to or they should like understand and take this poll seriously like this
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isn't like even a pollster running something or a media outlet or an internet poll I mean I could
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run a Twitter poll and probably get 10,000 people vote yes to shaving Justin's head or something
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like that this this went out to Albertans hundreds of thousands of voters took part in it
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this is now a serious outcome that people can go to Ottawa and say we have a mandate to change the
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status quo. And one of the things I'll say, too, is that the question was serious. And I know I
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certainly heard from a lot of our supporters, and Corey, I'm sure you heard it from a lot of
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your listeners as well, that were concerned with opening up the Constitution. But the fact that
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the question had so much gravity to it, I think adds to the fact that this was a serious exercise
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by the government in order to try to bring about change.
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Sure, and to your point, they could have asked simply a question like,
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do you think Alberta is getting the same money they're putting in as they're getting back?
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But this question had a lot of gravity, and Albertans deserve a lot of credit.
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I know a lot of academics don't think a lot of average Albertans in the way they think,
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and certainly they didn't in the way they framed this referendum.
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But Albertans deserve a lot of credit for thinking through the issue,
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for coming to a consensus and then getting in their car and voting yes to see change.
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Look, Alberta is not going to get changed simply by sending its premier to Ottawa
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The last time there was a significant change in the way the federal,
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the provincial and federal fiscal imbalance was with the Atlantic Accords.
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And the only reason why that was done was Danny Williams, the premier of the day,
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wanted to change the way natural resources were calculated in the equalization formula. So he did
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things like fly the flag upside down. He ran a campaign against Stephen Harper, you know,
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never vote conservative. It takes this kind of pressure in order to bring about change. And
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that's why what really this referendum was all about. It was a political tactic in order to
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bring Justin Trudeau to the table. And the reason the government had to do that was the last time
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the equalization formula expired um in 2018 the federal government didn't do any negotiation
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despite requests by um the provincial governments in alberta of different political stripes
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um so if we didn't do something like this now we're going to keep getting what we're getting
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and so now at least we've handed the premier um a bat which he can use for negotiations and really
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the ball's kind of in his court to kind of take it now and run with it and make sure that the will
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of Albertans and the people that wanted to bring about change, that that is acted upon
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and not just forgotten about in Ottawa. Yeah, well, they've taken our silence as
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consent and they can't do that anymore. We weren't silent. We spoke up, we spoke against it. So
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now it's time to talk. Another aspect I think that was valuable in doing this exercise,
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a lot of defenders of equalization or some academics would say, well, Albertans don't
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understand it. They don't understand how it actually works. They don't realize the program
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is actually not so bad. We've had like now a month-long education program for Albertans,
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or even longer in a sense, to look at it and discuss it. And I don't think people went and
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voted on this in a misinformed manner. Oh, no, quite the opposite. And you're right. I think
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most Albertans understood that the money that they're getting in, that they're putting into
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Ottawa, and then the money that they're getting back isn't the same thing. I mean, to put it in
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perspective. I mean, on a per capita basis, the numbers Albertans put in is about $650 each into
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confederation into Ottawa. And then on the other flip side, Quebec gets back about $1,500. So it's
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a massive disparity that we're talking about. And this has happened at a time, this number has
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grown at a time when the Alberta economy has shrunk. And so I think that it's critical. And
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I think one of the learnings should be from this is that, you know, certainly we can have academics
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and politicians and arguing about these issues, but it really takes average people getting involved
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before you really put your foot down and it really makes a stand. And I think that's one
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of the things as we change our politics a little bit is to try to get away from the elites kind of
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back and forth on on social media and instead get it back into the people because when we trust them
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they they do the right thing and a lot of people took this really really seriously and they deserve
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a lot of credit for both going out and participating in the vote but also learning about it yeah well
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we have another tool in the toolbox now to push back against this and maybe be a catalyst for
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future change. Maybe now I'll move on to the general election and our major cities, Albertans
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in that end, didn't vote for smaller government, it appears for the most part. Edmonton and Calgary
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changed mayors, both of them, but they both seem to be more on a mandate of taxing and spending.
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What's your, I guess, your views on how the election turned out there? I think on that,
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we should have a lot of concern. Often with these votes, there's more things at play than simply
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about policy um so i wouldn't necessarily ascribe uh policy differences to the reasons why certain
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politicians were elected and certainly ones that weren't i mean if you look at the situation in
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edmonton um for example um mr sohi was well ahead for a long time in this race um and i'm not sure
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that it was a policy decision i think it was more of a name recognition um there i think in calgary
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you saw involvement from a lot of third-party groups who paid a lot of money,
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contributed a lot of money to that race to try to make a difference, namely labor unions.
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I think that those types of things do make a difference. So I think before we get too
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pessimistic, I think we need to factor in that there's a lot of other issues at play. But having
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said that, I think that it's incumbent now upon those people and groups like myself at the Canadian
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Taxpayers Federation to push even harder for these ideas, that we can't simply rely
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on conservative views to win the day. It's now a battle each and every day for each and every heart
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and mind. And I hope that this motivates people as we start to look towards the provincial election
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and polling that Western Standard has done should wake everyone up real quick if this municipal
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election didn't. Well, that's it. I mean, there's a lot of campaigning on more spending and more
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taxing, but you know, sometimes you get what was campaigned on, then you get the reality. I mean,
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these are new councils getting forward. It's hard to tell exactly what the flavor is going to be
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until they sit down and start proposing some policies and changes. And hopefully citizens
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can speak up and counsel our councillors to take a responsible approach to governance. I mean,
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in the pandemic right now, everything's just so upside down and turned around. And now with the
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new governments coming in in the cities, we have some possibilities for some really good policies
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or some really bad ones we're going to see very soon. Yeah, and I think maybe it should,
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it will highlight some of the real choices that people have made. I mean, the new mayor of Calgary,
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one of the first things she started talking about was the climate emergency, which I think
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rightfully, if you work in the energy sector, like hundreds of thousands of Albertans do,
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you have a right you should be concerned um and i think the statements like that when we get away
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from municipal issues i mean to me one of the issues we have with our municipal governments is
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they've started talking more about broader issues and forgetting the nuts and bolts which we just
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want to see things work like we want to see the lights the we want to see the the water and the
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streets maintained and the transit systems work um those are the things that have kind of fallen
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by the wayside if you look at edmonton like with the overrun of the of the lrt system um that those
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issues uh have not been dealt with and until they are i think there's going to be a lot of people
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who are going to be demanding a lot of things and i thought it was interesting that yesterday
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a lot of the councillors even those on the left uh on left side of the political equation were
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talking about fiscal responsibility as the budget was coming up because that's something they quote
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unquote said they heard on the doors um so yeah let's i think we'll give this a little bit of time
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to tell um and i think as we especially as we head into the next provincial election a lot of these
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issues are going to be even bigger absolutely we can't give up hope just because if someone someone
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was labeled i believe rory romano balanced the budget and he was ndp in saskatchewan so
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when fiscal reality hits uh no matter what end of the spectrum you're on you you you have to act
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So you've got signs to pick up and a campaign to wrap up. What are you got ahead of you though?
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You're still going to be very busy coming ahead. What's the Alberta end of the Canadian
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Taxpayers Federation going to be doing in the next coming months up to Christmas?
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I think our big thing is we're going to be looking at the provincial budget coming up.
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One of the things the government has not outlined yet is a plan to balance the budget.
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Not sure how you manage your finances when you don't have a plan. I know
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I think most people do for their own household budget,
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yet the government has not aligned one with theirs.
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And I think the second issue, which is going to be really important
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and critically important over the next little bit,
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how are we going to get our labor force working again?
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So today we've been talking about the need to start to roll back
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some of the pandemic supports that have been affecting our labor market in order to get
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people back to work and getting our businesses moving again so we can create jobs and create
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good wealth and make sure that when these policies happen, that the people are out
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and working again and developing a better economy.
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Great. Well, I look forward to seeing your progress and your lobbying. I do appreciate
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the work the Taxpayers Federation does. And thanks for joining me today. Where can people
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We'll find more information on you guys actually.
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and I'm sure we'll be talking again soon, Kevin.