Western Standard - The independence question： Parallels between Quebec and Alberta

00:00:00.000 I'm Derek Fildebrand, publisher of the Western Standard. Today is September 11th,

00:00:16.240 2025. Today I'm joined by Paul St-Pierre Plamondon, better known as PSPP. He is the

00:00:24.880 leader of the Parti Québécois. He took over the leadership of that party when it was down to just

00:00:31.040 three seats and at its lowest level of support ever, but has since grown it to the first place

00:00:37.680 in the polls and is widely considered to be the front-runner to become the next Premier of Quebec.

00:00:44.640 He is in Alberta right now. Just this morning, he was speaking at the University of Calgary,

00:00:51.200 speaking about the challenges of Quebec and where there might be alignment and some commonality with Alberta and the West.

00:00:59.600 His team reached out to us, and I think it's a fantastic opportunity to speak to someone outside of our normal comfort zone,

00:01:06.620 outside of our bubble, getting a different perspective on the kinds of issues we face in the West

00:01:12.840 from someone who leads a party trying to address the similar-ish challenges that they have in Quebec.

00:01:21.200 um oh thank you very much for joining my pleasure um so uh i'll pick up kind of from our pre-camera

00:01:30.700 conversation yeah um you know i i think outside of quebec uh there is a extremely simplistic

00:01:37.840 understanding of the party quebec law and in most provinces the politics are lined up broadly along

00:01:46.480 a left-right spectrum.

00:01:49.740 You know, NDP, liberal, conservative,

00:01:52.500 you know, fit green in there

00:01:53.480 in some provinces, sometimes not.

00:01:55.700 In Quebec, its politics

00:01:57.720 have, at least since the quiet revolution in the 60s

00:01:59.800 been defined along a more

00:02:00.900 nationalist,

00:02:03.060 federalist axis,

00:02:04.700 and there's places to go

00:02:06.760 along that.

00:02:08.700 But it's also still got

00:02:10.360 left-right that does

00:02:12.820 play into it, just not as neatly

00:02:14.820 as in other places.

00:02:16.480 In Alberta, the nationalist-federalist spectrum lines up very neatly on the left-right, because our nationalist movement is not so much based on culture, language, that kind of thing.

00:02:33.880 It's more of an economic and civic nationalist thing.

00:02:36.880 So, I don't know, maybe if you could just start with, you know, where does, how should an English Canadian understand the Parti Québécois?

00:02:45.920 Let's try the, let's give it a shot.

00:02:48.500 I think you're correct.

00:02:50.680 So, the Parti Québécois is a party founded upon a willingness of the population in Quebec for self-determination.

00:03:01.420 So what it is about is democracy and making our own choices, not sending money to Ottawa for them, with only 20% of the seats, for them to decide what we ought to do with that money.

00:03:13.440 It's particular, of course, in the case of Quebec, you're correct to say that the linguistic and cultural aspect of it is important, because if you can't make your own policies and spend your own money where you think it belongs, you will see very important challenges in terms of sustaining, having durability for the French language, the Quebec culture.

00:03:36.140 But it goes also to immigration, the place of the judiciary power that is always, almost always aligned with the Liberal Party of Canada, so will not rule in favor of what would have been the democratic choice of Quebec.

00:03:50.040 So you have several topics where the democratic will of Quebecers is overruled by a federal government that tends to abuse its powers by spending in fields that should be, the fields of the provinces.

00:04:05.300 In terms of right and left, Quebec in general tend to be centrist. So you'll see, if you compare to France, England, United States, elsewhere, there is radical left and there is radical right, but the behavior in general is more towards the center.

00:04:25.480 Parti Québécois has had periods where it was quite to the left, other periods that were qualified as more to the right of the center, but it's always close to the center.

00:04:36.880 You can say that.

00:04:38.500 And as for the current Parti Québécois, it will be now five years this fall that I'm the leader of the Parti Québécois.

00:04:44.300 I think you could say we're anti-radical left social democrats, which is…

00:04:52.400 You don't say moderate left?

00:04:53.620 Yeah, you could say moderate left, and sometimes we're right. So it's very difficult to read from a more standard left-right spectrum because of many factors. But one model that I think would be comparable is a few Scandinavian countries who came to the conclusion that radical left ideas had a catastrophic impact on their social peace and on their services and so on.

00:05:19.820 And yet they are pursuing the idea that it should be a free, a market-based, free market society where the richer will contribute to a safety net, to services that are available to everyone.

00:05:33.400 So that's what I would call social democracy, not the same than socialist, because socialist is not believing in free market.

00:05:40.380 And yet a very strong criticism from my part of the direction Canada took under Trudeau, not only the abuse of power, but the ideology, the counterproductive ideology during that period.

00:05:56.680 And it's still on. I think under Carney, it's still the same people and the same ideas, I think.

00:06:01.460 so nationalism is broadly speaking uh on the right sorry within the western civilization

00:06:12.380 generally associated with the right um but i mean for lack of a better term

00:06:18.800 sub-national nationalism uh is more often than not associated with the left but not always uh

00:06:27.540 You know, if we look at, say, the Scottish National Party, it's a left party.

00:06:32.300 Yeah.

00:06:34.220 You know, in Catalonia, you know, the independence and autonomous movements in Catalonia associated with the left.

00:06:44.160 And then in Quebec, imperfectly, but I think it's broadly associated a bit with the left.

00:06:51.180 Alberta is different where it's it's almost uniform like among United Conservative Party supporters in Alberta, 66 percent support independence, 33 percent are opposed.

00:07:02.600 But then among NDP supporters, it's 99 percent are federalists, which which from Quebec's perspective is incomprehensible.

00:07:11.320 Because if your pretension is that you should have funding for services to the population and that safety net could be better, why would you send a substantial part of your income tax to a government that just duplicates or is wasting your money, giving you very few services in return?

00:07:35.700 Why would you do that?

00:07:37.340 So, yeah, I don't understand that.

00:07:43.160 I agree, but I think from their perspective, think of the left in Alberta the way we would think of Anglophones in Quebec.

00:07:53.260 They're a minority, and they rely on the national government to protect them.

00:07:57.400 That if Alberta was its own country, the left would be permanently shut out of power and would have overall less influence.

00:08:05.280 That they use Ottawa to counter the Alberta government.

00:08:08.920 I think that's from their perspective.

00:08:11.460 I don't think it's a valid argument, but it's for them to decide.

00:08:15.720 I'm trying to speak on their behalf, which is obviously subpar.

00:08:19.580 um all right so you've said you're committed if you form at the party quebecois under your

00:08:25.320 leadership forms government you're holding a third referendum on sovereignty um i think you've

00:08:30.760 been pretty unambiguous about it it's not uh as lucian bouchard said not waiting for winning

00:08:36.320 conditions it's we're gonna do it yeah um but what sovereignty or independence means is

00:08:45.320 sometimes

00:08:47.680 ambiguous. The first

00:08:49.600 two referendum questions were

00:08:50.960 criticized for being ambiguous, not very

00:08:53.560 clear-cut. In Alberta,

00:08:56.920 if I can give myself a little credit, the Western Standard

00:08:59.540 I think has imported a lot

00:09:01.520 of the language around independence

00:09:03.360 and sovereignty from Quebec.

00:09:06.760 When we say

00:09:07.540 independence in Alberta, we mean

00:09:09.660 a republic

00:09:11.300 of Alberta, or I guess

00:09:13.500 technically could be another constitutionarchy but it would be a a separate independent country

00:09:17.820 completely on its own severed uh from all direct state ties from canada yeah um it's exactly the

00:09:27.080 same right now for the party now danielle smith has also talked about sovereignty within canada

00:09:32.840 um with more independence but not the term independent but when you say sovereignty are

00:09:38.900 Are you talking about some kind of sovereignty association or is it like, no, there's a Republic of Quebec and it is its own country?

00:09:47.340 I say independence.

00:09:48.700 That's it.

00:09:49.460 And here's what's going to happen if Alberta continues in the sovereignty association model or at least discourse.

00:10:00.280 That discourse will be met in Ottawa with it's giving Ottawa power to respond by saying, oh, you think we'll collaborate?

00:10:08.440 You think it will go well. It's going to be terrible. And then the fear takes all the place because you're dependent on the interpretation of a regime that feels threatened or that feels there might be losing powers.

00:10:26.660 So they will not help you. So I think I've never discussed, I work with people very close to René Lévesque that were very close to René Lévesque. I never understood why they came to that idea of sovereignty that means that you're not really independent.

00:10:46.620 But when I mean independent, I mean a country with 100% of their capacity from a financial standpoint, from a law standpoint, and from a standpoint of foreign relations.

00:10:58.020 Now, once you're a country and you have those foreign relations, nothing is preventing you from making a deal or inventing a framework with another independent province that say, I think we should work on this together.

00:11:10.340 We have a common interest.

00:11:11.480 The difference in that model is that you respect the democracy and the legitimacy of both those parliaments, whereas the current model is an illegitimate government that will tell you, based on not much, because oftentimes they're ultra-virus of their own constitution, they will tell you how it should be done and your voice will not be heard, which is pretty much anti-democratic.

00:11:38.120 So I think independence, it's important to have that word or that name

00:11:42.560 because it's with independence that you have foreign relations.

00:11:46.680 And once you have foreign relations, you can set a deal based on your own will,

00:11:51.960 based on self-determination, democratic self-determination.

00:11:54.940 It's very different from the current model.

00:11:57.260 And I don't see Canada stopping ever the abuse of powers

00:12:02.380 that we've seen over and over, over so many decades.

00:12:05.160 it. Human nature never leaves power on the table. They might make a deal with you and be nice with

00:12:13.240 you right now if they see that Alberta's independence project is getting serious.

00:12:19.240 They might give you a few presents and give you a break for a while. But once your autonomous

00:12:24.600 government will be out and will be replaced by a more Federalist government, it will start again.

00:12:29.640 That's the history of the Parti Québécois. The irony with our party is that it's when the Parti Québécois is in power that we make the most gains from the federal government.

00:12:40.680 So people are just it's working, but it's not because as soon as you're out of power, the overall picture is that we've been in decline in terms of invasion of the federal in our fields of competence, but also decline of the French language, decline of our culture.

00:12:59.460 in our many aspects that are important for us.

00:13:03.680 So if, I don't know if you've announced the wording

00:13:07.660 of what your question would be,

00:13:08.820 but I mean, so you're saying that the third referendum

00:13:12.780 is going to have a clear question.

00:13:14.860 It's something along the lines of,

00:13:17.520 should Alberta become an independent country?

00:13:19.740 That's it.

00:13:20.140 Like, that's it.

00:13:20.840 Yeah.

00:13:21.720 Okay.

00:13:22.800 Well, I should address the first part of the Clarity Act.

00:13:27.300 No, it will not.

00:13:29.460 It will not because the federal government has not done the Clarity Act

00:13:34.360 and has not tried to get the judicial power.

00:13:37.680 I know I'm getting a can of worms as soon as I said that.

00:13:39.800 They've not done all that because they worry about fairness.

00:13:42.720 They worry about keeping their power, their regime.

00:13:47.040 So I do not expect them to stop at this.

00:13:51.440 They'll find something else to say at the end that they don't recognize it

00:13:56.080 and that it doesn't work.

00:13:57.220 They were not. So they lied during the referendum of 94. They lied on several things, but they lied on the idea that they will recognize the result. They said that during the campaign. But we know for a fact from declarations afterwards, one of Jean Chrétien, that they were not going to recognize it. And so abuse of power doesn't stop overnight. And I'm not naive about it. But to answer your question, yes, it's about independence. And the question will be very to the point.

00:14:27.220 Okay, well, since we opened the Clarity Act can of worms, I guess we'll go down a little bit.

00:14:34.140 You know, I think the only two places in Canada as it's currently constituted, where there's any kind of number of people who have actually really looked into it is in Quebec and Alberta, because we're the ones who would have to deal with it.

00:14:51.960 um you know i i've i generally thought the first two points of the clarity act are reasonable a

00:14:57.740 clear question clear majority okay i mean that's pretty hard to disagree with but it's after that

00:15:02.640 where it just says but even the clear majority it's just yeah that could get hazy i generally

00:15:07.820 say it's it's written abuse of power all over it because i mean what's democracy if it's not to win

00:15:13.500 or to lose in power with 35 of the vote sometimes and he and he gets almost all the power so what's

00:15:18.940 a clear majority. There are defensive

00:15:20.980 mechanisms to keep power.

00:15:22.700 The big problematic area to me

00:15:24.780 is where I've seen is that, okay,

00:15:26.940 say Alberta or Quebec

00:15:28.320 had a clear question and a clear majority. Let's just

00:15:30.960 say it was 80%.

00:15:32.680 Overwhelming. No one's going to get that, but

00:15:34.900 let's just say that.

00:15:37.280 But then, all

00:15:38.920 it does is oblige Ottawa to negotiate.

00:15:42.080 And you would need unanimity

00:15:43.220 of all the other provinces and Ottawa

00:15:45.180 together. And at that point,

00:15:47.140 And I feel like it's by design to just bog us down in negotiations and they can make unreasonable demands of Alberta and say, well, you know, we're just not agreeing to it.

00:16:01.600 And that leads to two possible outcomes at that point, which is either we just give up on it and accept status quo, despite what people have voted for, or the magic word, a unilateral declaration of independence.

00:16:17.740 Of course.

00:16:18.700 Is that something you're prepared to do in the event where you enter into negotiations, which would be reasonable, but those negotiations are maybe not in good faith?

00:16:27.460 would a government, after a successful referendum on independence

00:16:31.620 and negotiations breaking down,

00:16:33.660 is a unilateral declaration of independence

00:16:36.040 something you would be prepared to make?

00:16:41.140 The whole question here is legitimacy

00:16:43.660 of a government that controls or nominates the judicial power

00:16:49.680 and that will not let it happen

00:16:52.940 and will find any reason or excuse

00:16:55.520 not to recognize the legitimacy of that change and that change is currently being discussed in

00:17:00.640 alberta and quebec and might be discussed elsewhere depending on how where this leads i don't find

00:17:09.200 myself obliged by a regime that i don't find legitimate my only loyalty is towards my people

00:17:20.720 who elected me the rest for me is a foreign regime out of a colonial mentality and framework

00:17:28.720 and so when i refused to give a note to the king of england people told me oh the constitution

00:17:35.600 won't let you i was just i don't care i mean what legitimacy for that constitution if quebec

00:17:42.960 never agreed to it it's clearly the out the spin-off of the colonial regime and the willingness

00:17:50.560 to make francophones a minority in in that new ensemble why should i accept to lie and give my

00:17:59.600 loyalty to a foreign king just because you tell me a constitution that is illegitimate tells me so 0.63

00:18:05.360 so i didn't decide to to put a knee down and and to make that oath i just continued and i said this

00:18:11.680 is not legit legitimate so legitimacy in democracy is much more important than um

00:18:21.920 legal documents that actually were never consented upon by the different members of that ensembles

00:18:31.360 so that's that's where declaring the independence of quebec if i have a majority of my people

00:18:36.720 supporting me, is not only what I'm going to do, it's my devoir, it's my obligation.

00:18:44.860 Because I know that there's no future.

00:18:47.860 The policies of Canada are working against Quebec's interests in so many ways.

00:18:52.340 There's no future for French-speaking with a Quebec culture. 1.00

00:18:56.660 That kind of Quebec will not exist in 100 years if I don't do anything. 0.99

00:19:00.080 And financially speaking, I don't want charity from any other province.

00:19:05.400 And I don't feel it's normal to send almost half of my tax income to a government that duplicates or wastes the money I've gained.

00:19:15.240 I disagree with that.

00:19:16.360 So legitimacy, I think, is really important in understanding what's coming, whether it comes from Alberta or it comes from Quebec.

00:19:24.300 Because otherwise, you see it from other governments in the world.

00:19:26.900 Like, there's no end to being in bad faith using legal instruments that you've created yourself to protect yourself and protect your power.

00:19:34.880 I mean, democracy is much more about popular legitimacy than a power that tries to hold on to what they have.

00:19:44.500 I'm going to get into the finance side of independence, et cetera, in a bit.

00:19:50.040 But that's interesting.

00:19:53.880 You've said that Alberta's independence or, more broadly speaking, nationalist movement, because we have a spectrum as well.

00:20:01.000 We've got hardline autonomists who want to still fly the Maple Leaf, but want as little control from Ottawa as possible to people who are full independents.

00:20:09.840 We have a spectrum like yourselves.

00:20:13.740 But you've said that Alberta's independence or nationalist movement benefits Quebec's independence movement.

00:20:24.060 But a lot of our independence movement is on different sets of issues as yours.

00:20:30.180 which is perfectly normal yeah i mean quebec's is um you know i grew up with a pretty unfavorable

00:20:39.300 view of quebec and that's really changed over the years um as i've come to understand alberta

00:20:44.420 struggle and also as i've come to quebec you know when i visit quebec city i get such a different

00:20:50.580 feeling there than almost any anglo city it's it's a place where you can feel the history in

00:20:57.620 In the air, in the architecture, there is an old people with a culture worth preserving there.

00:21:05.040 You can feel it.

00:21:05.840 And I'm somewhat envious of it.

00:21:08.980 I think Calgary is one of the very few other, Quebec City and Calgary have a real and unique sense of culture.

00:21:16.920 I think Calgary is losing it very quickly.

00:21:19.080 But I've come to understand Quebec's need to preserve what it has.

00:21:24.680 Sometimes that irks us in terms of how it flows out of its borders.

00:21:27.620 And from our perspective, some dull standards, but I've I've come to very much understand the struggle you're having and why you do it.

00:21:36.460 But, you know, our our nationalist or independence movement is less cultural, more focused on economics and fiscal issues.

00:21:47.080 So when we fight about equalization, and a large part of the bone we pick is with Quebec, how does even, because we're picking a bone that's largely in terms of, you know, we don't, we'll get into the numbers a bit, we don't want to be seen as subsidizing Quebec, we're angry at Quebec for opposing pipeline construction to get our products to market.

00:22:09.580 How does us picking fights on fronts that are largely with Quebec benefit Quebec's nationalist movement?

00:22:17.080 Well, I think one of the reasons why I'm in Calgary today is that I was kind of tired

00:22:27.020 of a non-conversation that pertains to whether Alberta would make the same choices than Quebec

00:22:35.080 and vice versa and financial disputes that are all the consequences of a system that

00:22:43.800 You didn't agree upon, and I didn't agree upon.

00:22:46.840 So from my standpoint, I don't want Alberta's money.

00:22:52.400 I think that if Quebec stop sending 90 billions a year to Ottawa for little services

00:23:01.060 and a lot of dysfunctionality, a government that always contradicts our own government

00:23:08.220 and always very

00:23:09.900 too often for me

00:23:11.280 a lot of waste, a lot of mismanagement

00:23:14.260 if we get rid of that

00:23:16.080 I mean I don't want equalization

00:23:17.940 payments, it's not good for our economy because

00:23:20.160 getting money

00:23:21.760 is the worst strategy in terms of

00:23:24.180 entrepreneurship and

00:23:25.480 growth and economic value

00:23:28.440 but you have said, I don't know the

00:23:30.200 exact words because I can't read

00:23:32.200 or speak French

00:23:32.740 so correct me if I'm wrong but I

00:23:36.080 I believe you've said that Quebec isn't reliant on equalization from Alberta,

00:23:40.740 but Alberta's contributed $67 billion to equalization since 1957.

00:23:45.740 Quebec is, at least in gross terms, not per capita, but gross terms,

00:23:48.780 the largest recipient.

00:23:52.060 So I want to try and make sense with what you've said.

00:23:53.880 You said we don't want equalization.

00:23:55.620 What you're saying, Quebec, is not reliant on equalization.

00:24:00.940 I see those two as incongruent.

00:24:03.640 Yeah. I have a wonderful document. I might find it right now. So this is the finances of an independent Quebec. You have six economists from different universities in Quebec who oversaw the works. Basically, what that says is that if you limit your analysis to equalization...

00:24:33.640 the way the federal government works is that it takes a lot of money out of our pockets and then

00:24:39.080 it just spends it spends much more than what equalization payment is overall yeah but we

00:24:45.000 have to talk about total net uh so you have to look at investment direct investment in the economy

00:24:51.960 you have to look at how the government the federal government government investor does not invest in

00:24:58.040 assets in infrastructure because it's very unequal depending uh and you have to look at

00:25:04.920 how much there's obvious duplication and obvious waste because if you're in a

00:25:11.720 scenario where alberta is independent and quebec is independent

00:25:16.120 you will not be spending for two ministers of health and you'll not be spending for doing two

00:25:22.920 times the same thing and arguing about it because you disagree you'll you won't have that anymore

00:25:26.920 I agree with that. So with very, very conservative and prudent standards, we come to the conclusion that then even though we wouldn't get equalization payments, other factors such as direct investment in the economy, other factors such as stopping this duplication in this waste and other factors such as having our own monetary strategy, our own international commerce strategy would make us more rich.

00:25:55.480 because the truth about equalization payments is that it hinders our economy, our entrepreneurship.

00:26:02.200 The Canadian dollar is also very much related to oil and gas, which has an impact on our exports.

00:26:09.900 So overall, to say that Quebec, at the level of wealth and productivity we have,

00:26:15.200 couldn't stand alone as a country is just undefendable.

00:26:19.100 So, obviously, we will find a way, but it will be our strategy, our way, and we will not need foreign money.

00:26:28.960 And I don't want to, but we will not take the contempt that goes with it, too, because the public discourse on those.

00:26:36.320 There is contempt.

00:26:36.960 It's just pure contempt.

00:26:39.140 So, is it good for us?

00:26:40.560 No.

00:26:41.860 So, I'll be glad that all this stopped, and you'll be glad.

00:26:45.700 And then afterwards.

00:26:47.160 Now we're talking Turkey.

00:26:48.360 Yeah.

00:26:48.540 And then afterwards, we can sit down and say, okay, so now we decide for ourselves, we're responsible for ourselves, but are there fields or things that we really want to work together on a common framework because it just makes sense?

00:27:03.920 Yeah.

00:27:04.120 And then you'll get something that is effective and useful.

00:27:06.860 But the current federal government is just raising taxes, and they were not doing this before the First World War.

00:27:14.480 They didn't need, but it's a source of power.

00:27:17.040 You just raise taxes and then you use that money as power saying, hey, you want something for your new university?

00:27:23.340 Here's my requirement.

00:27:24.540 You're going to have to do this.

00:27:25.440 You need DEI everywhere.

00:27:27.380 You want something for your...

00:27:28.800 I really learned to talk to Albertans.

00:27:30.480 But it's a huge debate in Quebec because it's about freedom of research.

00:27:36.980 And sometimes I would even say a false knowledge that is forced by the federal government who has all sorts of requirements for money that is ours.

00:27:47.040 They take it in our pocket and instead of sending it back, so for health care, we ask for $6 billion based on historical contributions of the federal and the health care systems.

00:27:57.080 But they're so busy starting new programs and inventing things, they don't have any more money for fundamentals such as health care.

00:28:06.740 So are we better off just keeping all the money in Quebec and just managing it?

00:28:10.880 And if we make mistakes with it, our responsibility, are we better off in that system?

00:28:16.020 obviously yes so so is that available in english i'd like to uh it was published in the official

00:28:23.680 language of but um uh figures are figures so yeah so but you know if you guys were able to send me

00:28:31.880 digital version i could run it through like google translate i think we can do something

00:28:34.780 because calculations are calculations yeah i i'd be uh i've been in politics and i was the

00:28:40.980 finance critic you can make a calculation say anything one thing i want to say to those listening

00:28:45.480 to us who are interested in the independent the possibility of the independence of alberta

00:28:50.440 bear in mind that when you're going to make calculations and obviously you're going to

00:28:54.840 come to the conclusion that if you stop sending money into ottawa and you keep it here and you

00:28:59.240 make choices more aligned with your commercial strategy or industrial strategy you'll be richer

00:29:04.200 that will be the conclusion what the agents of the regime because i call them like that

00:29:09.080 so you'll have agents of the federal regime everywhere in society that will say it's never

00:29:14.600 going to work and you should fear your freedom you should fear your self-determination it's going to

00:29:19.320 be a disaster what they'll say is oh all the variables are not certain so you say that this

00:29:26.520 and that variable is like that but you have no certainty but the trap here is what certainty had

00:29:33.720 justin trudeau in power in terms of economics for the past 10 years what certainty mark harney has

00:29:39.960 i mean we had zero growth during 10 years based on really an ideological drift from immigration

00:29:48.600 and commerce and economic strategies i mean just so people understand sound calculations

00:29:57.480 will be met by the regime with arguments on uncertainty of variables the truth is variables

00:30:04.600 are always uncertain what counts is the fundamentals is the reasoning sound are the

00:30:11.400 fundamentals solid and then of course things happen and things change in terms of context

00:30:16.840 but if your fundamentals make sense obviously uh there are so many countries in the world

00:30:22.920 obviously countries get along and they make their own choice so i'm getting a better understanding

00:30:28.820 of what you're saying um that yes quebec quebec is a maybe a net recipient of federal dollars

00:30:37.300 but auto was just so inefficient and duplicative that independence even without a net influx of

00:30:44.560 federal dollars you'd still be ahead um slightly ahead that's what the figures say slightly slightly

00:30:50.400 better off but but then you would have total autonomy to do it as you see film room strategy

00:30:54.960 Yeah. And, you know, you would have, I guess to kind of come back to what I was saying earlier, you know, more autonomy or total independence to protect your culture, your way of life, language, etc.

00:31:08.040 when i'm having discussions about alberta independence versus quebec independence

00:31:14.560 with people um i i use it's an imperfect analogy but i you know they're very different kinds of

00:31:23.220 nationalism as i've said one alberta's is a tends to be more civic nationalism although

00:31:28.200 defending our culture is becoming an issue as mass migration becomes a huge issue that's actually

00:31:33.200 becoming an issue here now um where it wasn't really previously um but you know i i've i've

00:31:40.140 said that uh you know uh quebec for quebec nationalists um or people who might be in the

00:31:47.760 middle on that um you know their heart tells them independence but their brain tells them

00:31:53.000 canada because because of the because of equalization things like that you've made and

00:31:57.140 you've made your point on it yeah but i think it's the opposite but but i've said their brain

00:32:00.980 will keep to the conclusion that we should be

00:32:02.860 a country, and then fear will come into

00:32:04.860 play. So I

00:32:06.840 would place it rather that way.

00:32:08.980 I'm speaking very generally

00:32:10.900 and imperfectly,

00:32:13.080 but I've said that Quebecers,

00:32:15.020 because it's more of a cultural

00:32:16.620 nationalism, their hearts

00:32:18.540 are in it,

00:32:20.440 their hearts are in it,

00:32:22.780 but their brains, and this might be the fear

00:32:24.740 part, their brains say,

00:32:26.560 ah, it's uncertain,

00:32:28.480 we're going to lose equalization, etc. So their brains say,

00:32:30.660 you know, and in Alberta, it's the opposite. We broadly understand that we are massively

00:32:36.720 subsidizing the rest of Canada, that our brains say we would be significantly under our office

00:32:41.040 as an independent country, but our hearts, well, we're English-speaking Canadians. Our hearts are

00:32:48.120 in Canada, but our brains are independent, so that, you know, these are opposite.

00:32:52.980 They are, because in Quebec, the federal government is not there. It's very strange.

00:32:58.220 our government is in Quebec City

00:33:01.080 it's the National Assembly

00:33:02.360 and the space for what happens

00:33:04.940 in the House of Commons in Ottawa

00:33:06.440 and the news cycle

00:33:07.680 it's totally absent

00:33:10.300 it's not there because

00:33:11.700 we don't feel it's our government

00:33:13.740 and sometimes you hear Quebecers talking about

00:33:16.000 money that the government

00:33:18.300 the federal government sends

00:33:19.660 it's as if it's foreign money

00:33:21.700 we've been paying taxes

00:33:24.420 we just agreed that

00:33:28.220 This was not healthy. What I want to say is that you are maybe entering a new phase where you are now in Quebec's position, where you would like something else than the liberals in power, and then you realize it's not going to happen, even in extreme circumstances.

00:33:49.200 That's Quebec's situation with the Bloc Québécois for decades.

00:33:53.320 If we express what we want at the federal level, oftentimes, vast majority of times, the answer will be Bloc Québécois.

00:34:03.660 That Bloc Québécois cannot rule, cannot be in power.

00:34:07.840 It can basically act as a defensive mechanism.

00:34:12.220 Many of us are envious of the Bloc. 0.75

00:34:14.220 against uh abuses of powers and there are so many so they they do their best but it's not

00:34:20.860 sustainable it's not something you want forever so the block of the court was meant to be a very

00:34:25.900 short-term mechanism so i i i'm not from alberta so i don't want to but i imagine that after trudeau

00:34:35.980 trudeau's government i mean if you end up that there's no alternative there's no rotation

00:34:42.540 It might trigger questions that we have for a long time, thinking if we cannot have, if we don't have any probabilities or reasonable rotation of what we think cures what we dislike with, for instance, the Trudeau government, people will start asking themselves, okay, so what are the other options?

00:35:08.080 because we're pretty not heard, we're pretty much out of the system.

00:35:14.240 And it's the case as well with judiciary power.

00:35:17.460 So the more the judiciary power takes power over democratic choices of parliaments,

00:35:24.000 if those judges are almost all aligned with the Liberal Party of Canada

00:35:27.920 in terms of way of thinking and ideology,

00:35:30.640 those questions exist in Quebec for decades.

00:35:33.100 they might become more present and relevant in alberta given what i've just mentioned

00:35:39.360 as a political development in ottawa um

00:35:43.480 i'm trying we're limited on time so i'm trying to figure out which one i want to get it uh your

00:35:51.120 staff is going to get angry for me i go too far over uh so maybe i'll just you could be a short

00:35:55.340 real short one on this um certain areas uh part of my family comes from bavaria in germany yeah

00:36:01.800 And Bavaria has a different title that it calls itself.

00:36:06.440 It's not just a lander, a state in Germany.

00:36:09.060 It calls itself a free state, Freistadt.

00:36:11.280 I know you want independence, but as an interim step,

00:36:13.940 I've talked about Alberta should stop.

00:36:15.680 One thing I've really admired is Quebec,

00:36:18.140 especially Quebec national politicians,

00:36:20.280 they never call Quebec a province.

00:36:22.280 That's something I've picked up in the link.

00:36:24.020 But you know what province means?

00:36:26.240 Conquered land.

00:36:27.560 Yeah, well, Provence, which was conquered by the Roman Republic.

00:36:31.060 provincia yeah exactly so it's it's a conquered land so of course we're not i don't consent to

00:36:35.780 a conquered land i'm kind of letting slip in our style guide here i've picked this up i've taken

00:36:40.180 a lot of the quebec language and i don't refer to alberta and saskatchewan as provinces as much

00:36:44.340 as i can in our own pages here um but sometimes the language gets different because they're they

00:36:49.860 are provinces so i've i've thought that alberta and saskatchewan should unilaterally even you know

00:36:56.420 know without changing the constitution at least call themselves a free state if the same powers

00:37:01.400 of a province is changing what Quebec calls itself the symbolism matters and the Quebec

00:37:06.720 nationalist movement is decades ahead of Alberta would you as an interim step you know do something

00:37:12.280 like call Quebec a free state or something like that just it's a title change the problem we have

00:37:19.100 right now is that at the pace things are going the way the federal policies are oriented and the

00:37:26.020 impact it has in quebec the specificity of quebec from a linguistic and cultural

00:37:32.260 point of view will not last for very long a bit like what happened to francophones in

00:37:38.180 every other province we're losing it in english canada even okay so then you understand that

00:37:44.460 in the history of the party québécois and you have that with the ceq that is the current

00:37:49.120 government in quebec you'll have a tendency to say what can we do that is symbolic but we know

00:37:57.360 it's not going to change much but at least we have our own party at that point you know we'll say oh

00:38:02.160 we did that so we'll change unilaterally a part of the canadian constitution to say we're a nation

00:38:12.880 and then we'll say it's a historic moment and it's great it's awesome so let's say we start

00:38:17.200 calling ourselves free states if we're not free and and we haven't achieved any change in a system

00:38:26.080 that abuses powers over what should be ruled and decided by our respective parliaments

00:38:34.400 what good do we get i mean what's so i don't oppose it of course i will not never be against

00:38:40.320 initiatives that show that we're not a province in the sense of the latin word but i'm somewhere

00:38:47.840 else at this point because i don't think there's any future for french speaking quebec if we don't

00:38:54.720 get out of canada as soon as possible so given that analysis or diagnosis i've made don't expect

00:39:03.680 the government of the party quebecois to do things only do some things only because it looks good or

00:39:09.680 feels good and i'm afraid that sometimes in symbolics we're not going forward you can be

00:39:16.640 declining very very fast while making symbolics that feel good and i think that's a good

00:39:22.640 resume of what the ceq has done it's huge decline under the ceq in all respects housing french

00:39:29.680 language culture but they've done things like they have they have done things that probably were in

00:39:35.600 good faith but the impact of those things are not proportional to the level of challenge under

00:39:42.240 trudeau's government under the liberals and i don't see things changing under carney it's the

00:39:46.880 same people the same mentality of them deciding instead of us on fundamental things for our

00:39:53.920 cultural and linguistic sustainability so uh i'm just gonna fit one last question in before

00:39:59.840 your staff member goes and pulls the plug at our microphones here um but she's not she's not very

00:40:04.720 she's very she's friendly she's not she's she seems nice um you know as i've said albert and

00:40:12.420 quebec both want decentralization and more power at home but we tend to want different kinds quebec

00:40:19.440 more cultural uh alberta more physical but we we do to some extent we both yeah and things are

00:40:25.200 changing i mean yeah i increasingly want more here uh immigration is not just a physical issue now

00:40:31.720 it is very much a social issue and um uh so you know we've talked about where so building those

00:40:38.120 alliances i find has pretty you know the the two big decentralized provinces to use a dirty word 0.99

00:40:44.440 um but we've wanted different kinds and in large measure that is why mitch like and especially

00:40:50.280 charlatan accords failed um you know quebec and alberta were the two leading areas of canada

00:40:56.440 that voted down charlottetown but we voted it down for very different reasons uh albertans

00:41:02.920 and westerners broadly voted it down uh because it was seen as uh creating asymmetrical federalism

00:41:10.680 giving special deals to quebec and there was also some first nations issues in it there was

00:41:14.920 you know it was a huge huge agreement um and but we voted it down for one set of reasons

00:41:20.040 seeing it being seen as overly appeasing quebec quebecers voted it down at least as i perceive it

00:41:25.960 as it didn't go far enough in defending Quebec's culture and autonomy.

00:41:32.400 I know you prefer independence.

00:41:35.340 I prefer independence.

00:41:37.960 But, I mean, you've tried twice, didn't work.

00:41:41.000 We haven't even had a shot at it, and even then we'd have a...

00:41:43.780 It's a long shot for us to achieve it.

00:41:46.580 Failing independence.

00:41:47.660 Is there some kind of grand bargain, call it Charlottetown 2, that could...

00:42:01.660 Poor us.

00:42:04.220 Yeah, but if failing independence, if independence is not successful, is there a kind of grand bargain from your perspective that you think you could make that would make the Quebec nation happy and content within Canada that would work for you?

00:42:23.380 to the question what does quebec want the answer is clear crystal clear quebec wants

00:42:31.960 self-determination democratic self-determination why because it's the only model that gives

00:42:38.380 a future to our specificity linguistic and cultural other financial reasons have

00:42:44.740 joined the reasons, but basically that's it. So, I mean, the only reason why

00:42:52.740 federal prime ministers engaged into such complicated negotiations and talks

00:43:01.820 was that they felt there was a direct threat to their power and their regime. They didn't do that

00:43:10.060 in good faith because they just like to improve the life of Quebecers or Albertans.

00:43:15.820 So it might happen that as Quebec's sovereignty movement, independence movement, grows in strength

00:43:22.780 and probably Alberta's same movement grows in strength, you'll find federal politicians

00:43:31.100 nervous saying, okay, let's renegotiate in good faith. I think we've been through that

00:43:37.500 And anything under self-determination in terms of our laws, our finances, and international relations

00:43:44.060 will not work for Quebec because it will not work for our linguistic, cultural, and financial specificity.

00:43:53.200 However, once it's done, so once Quebec declares independence,

00:44:00.020 I think if Alberta declares independence, Quebec will follow, same here, vice versa.

00:44:05.860 If Quebec goes, I think Alberta will say, okay, I'm also independent.

00:44:11.080 In which case, we will talk to each other about what framework would be useful on a number of topics.

00:44:19.880 But without the federal trying to grab money and grab power and defend their privileges, without them, without interference and constant abuse of power since 1867, a constitution that we never voted or agreed upon.

00:44:35.100 It's in direct link. It's really about the colonial regime for Quebec. So I think it's the other way around. You become independent and a bit like Norway and Sweden or Slovakia and Czech Republic or in many, like, of course, in the following days, I will not be wanting to negotiate with the federal.

00:45:00.120 I will want to negotiate

00:45:02.620 with other provinces who think actually

00:45:04.580 mostly the same thing as I do

00:45:06.460 about how it should work. It doesn't mean we

00:45:08.580 agree on our priorities

00:45:10.100 but we agree that a

00:45:12.620 framework that would respect our respective

00:45:14.740 would show

00:45:16.600 respect to our respective parliaments

00:45:18.660 is much better than abuse of

00:45:20.700 power based on an old and

00:45:22.640 dysfunctional constitution.

00:45:25.140 And you have to add

00:45:26.720 to that that we were

00:45:27.780 during the patriation of the

00:45:30.120 1982 constitution, but we're totally out of it. It's just the end of the contempt is a better

00:45:38.660 start for a new framework than trying to deal with people who have been abusing their powers,

00:45:46.040 begging them to stop abusing their powers. And take the immigration situation. So Justin Trudeau

00:45:52.160 out of the blue, but not out of the blue. You had a group called the Century Initiative on Bay

00:45:57.460 street, they decided that we need to be 100 million Canadians based on whatever fluke economics.

00:46:05.240 They don't consult anyone. They just start doing this by saying, hey, come to Roxham.

00:46:11.060 And they changed the criteria at the airport. They really sabotaged our immigration system

00:46:17.360 that was working well. They were warned by provinces. They were warned by their own public

00:46:22.960 servants you will create the worst housing crisis we've seen in decades don't do it and they did it 0.97

00:46:29.020 anyway so why would i negotiate with these people why would i give them legitimacy they're abusing

00:46:37.340 their power and they're toxic for the public good in quebec and i think many albertans are starting

00:46:43.840 to think the same in regards of their conception of public good in alberta so i'd rather have

00:46:50.700 independence and then we make a deal and we talk because i expect collaboration to be ongoing on

00:46:56.620 so many things simply we're used to it and there are so many things we can work and that's why i'm

00:47:02.620 here so just to say by the way the door is open we have many things to talk about um but going

00:47:10.480 through a new charlotte town or a new meech lake i just don't see where it could lead that is

00:47:15.720 positive i just don't see it okay well i'm just gonna sneak one last one because it's really quick

00:47:21.240 you've you've convinced me on a lot of things so when you have that third referendum on

00:47:26.180 independence yeah are you gonna let albertans vote in it oh i don't care well you know that

00:47:31.960 the federal government cheated on the second referendum by bringing in people that were not

00:47:36.220 from quebec in order them to vote in a result that was so close yeah so so among the things

00:47:42.220 that maybe people listening to us in Alberta don't know.

00:47:46.280 I mean, they arrested members of the Parti Québécois.

00:47:49.260 They've stolen the list of members.

00:47:51.980 They cheated during the patriation of the Constitution.

00:47:55.880 They cheated during the referendums.

00:47:57.540 I mean, at some point, yes, there could be some kind of solidarity

00:48:03.960 or some common understanding of the fact that serving genuine democracy

00:48:09.420 is serving public good.

00:48:10.920 And that's why when you're asking me about how the federal will react in terms of Clarity Act and so on, there's been so many instances where the federal cheated and was dishonest.

00:48:22.920 So I don't expect anything else. And yes, some form of collaboration on the fundamentals would be useful. And I think that's why I'm here.

00:48:35.040 I'm just your self-determination in Alberta is yours to determine.

00:48:40.260 It's yours to decide.

00:48:41.880 And if you feel you have a common identity and common interests that are worth becoming a country, good for you.

00:48:49.440 And it's not for me to have a judgment on it.

00:48:52.260 But if I can be useful to democracy or if we can be useful to our both our interests, economic interests in the short term and so on,

00:49:01.780 And why not talk instead of being in that weird equalization and federal framework where nobody agrees because the interests are just not compatible and the abuse of power is so constant, it creates frustration.

00:49:16.480 So I think in a way, the reason I'm here is exactly that. So we can talk at least and see what positive could come in the next decades, given the decade we just experimented under the liberals, federal liberals.

00:49:31.780 Well, I think it's been a fascinating conversation. I think this is the kind of conversation, the whole dynamic of it is not something that Quebecers, Albertans, Westerners or Canadians broadly are very used to. So I really appreciate you coming in.

00:49:47.080 And I salute all of those who listened and I might be back. So there'll be other opportunities to think about this.

00:49:55.800 Our invitation is open. We'd love to have you back. Thank you very much.

00:49:59.420 My pleasure.

00:50:00.180 Thank you.

00:50:01.940 All right.

00:50:02.640 That's Paul St. Pierre Plomondon,

00:50:07.580 leader of the Parti Québécois,

00:50:09.640 sharing his thoughts.

00:50:12.500 Thank you very much for joining us.

00:50:13.940 Remember, if you're not yet a member of the Western Standard,

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00:50:29.660 We'll see you next time.

Western Standard - September 12, 2025

The independence question： Parallels between Quebec and Alberta

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