Paul St-Pierre Plamondon, leader of the Parti Quebecois, joins us to talk about the challenges of Quebec, and why there might be some commonality between his party and the other major parties in the West.
00:02:16.480In Alberta, the nationalist-federalist spectrum lines up very neatly on the left-right, because our nationalist movement is not so much based on culture, language, that kind of thing.
00:02:33.880It's more of an economic and civic nationalist thing.
00:02:36.880So, I don't know, maybe if you could just start with, you know, where does, how should an English Canadian understand the Parti Québécois?
00:02:50.680So, the Parti Québécois is a party founded upon a willingness of the population in Quebec for self-determination.
00:03:01.420So what it is about is democracy and making our own choices, not sending money to Ottawa for them, with only 20% of the seats, for them to decide what we ought to do with that money.
00:03:13.440It's particular, of course, in the case of Quebec, you're correct to say that the linguistic and cultural aspect of it is important, because if you can't make your own policies and spend your own money where you think it belongs, you will see very important challenges in terms of sustaining, having durability for the French language, the Quebec culture.
00:03:36.140But it goes also to immigration, the place of the judiciary power that is always, almost always aligned with the Liberal Party of Canada, so will not rule in favor of what would have been the democratic choice of Quebec.
00:03:50.040So you have several topics where the democratic will of Quebecers is overruled by a federal government that tends to abuse its powers by spending in fields that should be, the fields of the provinces.
00:04:05.300In terms of right and left, Quebec in general tend to be centrist. So you'll see, if you compare to France, England, United States, elsewhere, there is radical left and there is radical right, but the behavior in general is more towards the center.
00:04:25.480Parti Québécois has had periods where it was quite to the left, other periods that were qualified as more to the right of the center, but it's always close to the center.
00:04:53.620Yeah, you could say moderate left, and sometimes we're right. So it's very difficult to read from a more standard left-right spectrum because of many factors. But one model that I think would be comparable is a few Scandinavian countries who came to the conclusion that radical left ideas had a catastrophic impact on their social peace and on their services and so on.
00:05:19.820And yet they are pursuing the idea that it should be a free, a market-based, free market society where the richer will contribute to a safety net, to services that are available to everyone.
00:05:33.400So that's what I would call social democracy, not the same than socialist, because socialist is not believing in free market.
00:05:40.380And yet a very strong criticism from my part of the direction Canada took under Trudeau, not only the abuse of power, but the ideology, the counterproductive ideology during that period.
00:05:56.680And it's still on. I think under Carney, it's still the same people and the same ideas, I think.
00:06:01.460so nationalism is broadly speaking uh on the right sorry within the western civilization
00:06:12.380generally associated with the right um but i mean for lack of a better term
00:06:18.800sub-national nationalism uh is more often than not associated with the left but not always uh
00:06:27.540You know, if we look at, say, the Scottish National Party, it's a left party.
00:06:34.220You know, in Catalonia, you know, the independence and autonomous movements in Catalonia associated with the left.
00:06:44.160And then in Quebec, imperfectly, but I think it's broadly associated a bit with the left.
00:06:51.180Alberta is different where it's it's almost uniform like among United Conservative Party supporters in Alberta, 66 percent support independence, 33 percent are opposed.
00:07:02.600But then among NDP supporters, it's 99 percent are federalists, which which from Quebec's perspective is incomprehensible.
00:07:11.320Because if your pretension is that you should have funding for services to the population and that safety net could be better, why would you send a substantial part of your income tax to a government that just duplicates or is wasting your money, giving you very few services in return?
00:09:49.460And here's what's going to happen if Alberta continues in the sovereignty association model or at least discourse.
00:10:00.280That discourse will be met in Ottawa with it's giving Ottawa power to respond by saying, oh, you think we'll collaborate?
00:10:08.440You think it will go well. It's going to be terrible. And then the fear takes all the place because you're dependent on the interpretation of a regime that feels threatened or that feels there might be losing powers.
00:10:26.660So they will not help you. So I think I've never discussed, I work with people very close to René Lévesque that were very close to René Lévesque. I never understood why they came to that idea of sovereignty that means that you're not really independent.
00:10:46.620But when I mean independent, I mean a country with 100% of their capacity from a financial standpoint, from a law standpoint, and from a standpoint of foreign relations.
00:10:58.020Now, once you're a country and you have those foreign relations, nothing is preventing you from making a deal or inventing a framework with another independent province that say, I think we should work on this together.
00:11:11.480The difference in that model is that you respect the democracy and the legitimacy of both those parliaments, whereas the current model is an illegitimate government that will tell you, based on not much, because oftentimes they're ultra-virus of their own constitution, they will tell you how it should be done and your voice will not be heard, which is pretty much anti-democratic.
00:11:38.120So I think independence, it's important to have that word or that name
00:11:42.560because it's with independence that you have foreign relations.
00:11:46.680And once you have foreign relations, you can set a deal based on your own will,
00:11:51.960based on self-determination, democratic self-determination.
00:11:54.940It's very different from the current model.
00:11:57.260And I don't see Canada stopping ever the abuse of powers
00:12:02.380that we've seen over and over, over so many decades.
00:12:05.160it. Human nature never leaves power on the table. They might make a deal with you and be nice with
00:12:13.240you right now if they see that Alberta's independence project is getting serious.
00:12:19.240They might give you a few presents and give you a break for a while. But once your autonomous
00:12:24.600government will be out and will be replaced by a more Federalist government, it will start again.
00:12:29.640That's the history of the Parti Québécois. The irony with our party is that it's when the Parti Québécois is in power that we make the most gains from the federal government.
00:12:40.680So people are just it's working, but it's not because as soon as you're out of power, the overall picture is that we've been in decline in terms of invasion of the federal in our fields of competence, but also decline of the French language, decline of our culture.
00:12:59.460in our many aspects that are important for us.
00:13:03.680So if, I don't know if you've announced the wording
00:13:57.220They were not. So they lied during the referendum of 94. They lied on several things, but they lied on the idea that they will recognize the result. They said that during the campaign. But we know for a fact from declarations afterwards, one of Jean Chrétien, that they were not going to recognize it. And so abuse of power doesn't stop overnight. And I'm not naive about it. But to answer your question, yes, it's about independence. And the question will be very to the point.
00:14:27.220Okay, well, since we opened the Clarity Act can of worms, I guess we'll go down a little bit.
00:14:34.140You know, I think the only two places in Canada as it's currently constituted, where there's any kind of number of people who have actually really looked into it is in Quebec and Alberta, because we're the ones who would have to deal with it.
00:14:51.960um you know i i've i generally thought the first two points of the clarity act are reasonable a
00:14:57.740clear question clear majority okay i mean that's pretty hard to disagree with but it's after that
00:15:02.640where it just says but even the clear majority it's just yeah that could get hazy i generally
00:15:07.820say it's it's written abuse of power all over it because i mean what's democracy if it's not to win
00:15:13.500or to lose in power with 35 of the vote sometimes and he and he gets almost all the power so what's
00:15:47.140And I feel like it's by design to just bog us down in negotiations and they can make unreasonable demands of Alberta and say, well, you know, we're just not agreeing to it.
00:16:01.600And that leads to two possible outcomes at that point, which is either we just give up on it and accept status quo, despite what people have voted for, or the magic word, a unilateral declaration of independence.
00:16:18.700Is that something you're prepared to do in the event where you enter into negotiations, which would be reasonable, but those negotiations are maybe not in good faith?
00:16:27.460would a government, after a successful referendum on independence
00:19:16.360So legitimacy, I think, is really important in understanding what's coming, whether it comes from Alberta or it comes from Quebec.
00:19:24.300Because otherwise, you see it from other governments in the world.
00:19:26.900Like, there's no end to being in bad faith using legal instruments that you've created yourself to protect yourself and protect your power.
00:19:34.880I mean, democracy is much more about popular legitimacy than a power that tries to hold on to what they have.
00:19:44.500I'm going to get into the finance side of independence, et cetera, in a bit.
00:19:53.880You've said that Alberta's independence or, more broadly speaking, nationalist movement, because we have a spectrum as well.
00:20:01.000We've got hardline autonomists who want to still fly the Maple Leaf, but want as little control from Ottawa as possible to people who are full independents.
00:21:08.980I think Calgary is one of the very few other, Quebec City and Calgary have a real and unique sense of culture.
00:21:16.920I think Calgary is losing it very quickly.
00:21:19.080But I've come to understand Quebec's need to preserve what it has.
00:21:24.680Sometimes that irks us in terms of how it flows out of its borders.
00:21:27.620And from our perspective, some dull standards, but I've I've come to very much understand the struggle you're having and why you do it.
00:21:36.460But, you know, our our nationalist or independence movement is less cultural, more focused on economics and fiscal issues.
00:21:47.080So when we fight about equalization, and a large part of the bone we pick is with Quebec, how does even, because we're picking a bone that's largely in terms of, you know, we don't, we'll get into the numbers a bit, we don't want to be seen as subsidizing Quebec, we're angry at Quebec for opposing pipeline construction to get our products to market.
00:22:09.580How does us picking fights on fronts that are largely with Quebec benefit Quebec's nationalist movement?
00:22:17.080Well, I think one of the reasons why I'm in Calgary today is that I was kind of tired
00:22:27.020of a non-conversation that pertains to whether Alberta would make the same choices than Quebec
00:22:35.080and vice versa and financial disputes that are all the consequences of a system that
00:22:43.800You didn't agree upon, and I didn't agree upon.
00:22:46.840So from my standpoint, I don't want Alberta's money.
00:22:52.400I think that if Quebec stop sending 90 billions a year to Ottawa for little services
00:23:01.060and a lot of dysfunctionality, a government that always contradicts our own government
00:24:03.640Yeah. I have a wonderful document. I might find it right now. So this is the finances of an independent Quebec. You have six economists from different universities in Quebec who oversaw the works. Basically, what that says is that if you limit your analysis to equalization...
00:24:33.640the way the federal government works is that it takes a lot of money out of our pockets and then
00:24:39.080it just spends it spends much more than what equalization payment is overall yeah but we
00:24:45.000have to talk about total net uh so you have to look at investment direct investment in the economy
00:24:51.960you have to look at how the government the federal government government investor does not invest in
00:24:58.040assets in infrastructure because it's very unequal depending uh and you have to look at
00:25:04.920how much there's obvious duplication and obvious waste because if you're in a
00:25:11.720scenario where alberta is independent and quebec is independent
00:25:16.120you will not be spending for two ministers of health and you'll not be spending for doing two
00:25:22.920times the same thing and arguing about it because you disagree you'll you won't have that anymore
00:25:26.920I agree with that. So with very, very conservative and prudent standards, we come to the conclusion that then even though we wouldn't get equalization payments, other factors such as direct investment in the economy, other factors such as stopping this duplication in this waste and other factors such as having our own monetary strategy, our own international commerce strategy would make us more rich.
00:25:55.480because the truth about equalization payments is that it hinders our economy, our entrepreneurship.
00:26:02.200The Canadian dollar is also very much related to oil and gas, which has an impact on our exports.
00:26:09.900So overall, to say that Quebec, at the level of wealth and productivity we have,
00:26:15.200couldn't stand alone as a country is just undefendable.
00:26:19.100So, obviously, we will find a way, but it will be our strategy, our way, and we will not need foreign money.
00:26:28.960And I don't want to, but we will not take the contempt that goes with it, too, because the public discourse on those.
00:26:48.540And then afterwards, we can sit down and say, okay, so now we decide for ourselves, we're responsible for ourselves, but are there fields or things that we really want to work together on a common framework because it just makes sense?
00:27:28.800I really learned to talk to Albertans.
00:27:30.480But it's a huge debate in Quebec because it's about freedom of research.
00:27:36.980And sometimes I would even say a false knowledge that is forced by the federal government who has all sorts of requirements for money that is ours.
00:27:47.040They take it in our pocket and instead of sending it back, so for health care, we ask for $6 billion based on historical contributions of the federal and the health care systems.
00:27:57.080But they're so busy starting new programs and inventing things, they don't have any more money for fundamentals such as health care.
00:28:06.740So are we better off just keeping all the money in Quebec and just managing it?
00:28:10.880And if we make mistakes with it, our responsibility, are we better off in that system?
00:28:16.020obviously yes so so is that available in english i'd like to uh it was published in the official
00:28:23.680language of but um uh figures are figures so yeah so but you know if you guys were able to send me
00:28:31.880digital version i could run it through like google translate i think we can do something
00:28:34.780because calculations are calculations yeah i i'd be uh i've been in politics and i was the
00:28:40.980finance critic you can make a calculation say anything one thing i want to say to those listening
00:28:45.480to us who are interested in the independent the possibility of the independence of alberta
00:28:50.440bear in mind that when you're going to make calculations and obviously you're going to
00:28:54.840come to the conclusion that if you stop sending money into ottawa and you keep it here and you
00:28:59.240make choices more aligned with your commercial strategy or industrial strategy you'll be richer
00:29:04.200that will be the conclusion what the agents of the regime because i call them like that
00:29:09.080so you'll have agents of the federal regime everywhere in society that will say it's never
00:29:14.600going to work and you should fear your freedom you should fear your self-determination it's going to
00:29:19.320be a disaster what they'll say is oh all the variables are not certain so you say that this
00:29:26.520and that variable is like that but you have no certainty but the trap here is what certainty had
00:29:33.720justin trudeau in power in terms of economics for the past 10 years what certainty mark harney has
00:29:39.960i mean we had zero growth during 10 years based on really an ideological drift from immigration
00:29:48.600and commerce and economic strategies i mean just so people understand sound calculations
00:29:57.480will be met by the regime with arguments on uncertainty of variables the truth is variables
00:30:04.600are always uncertain what counts is the fundamentals is the reasoning sound are the
00:30:11.400fundamentals solid and then of course things happen and things change in terms of context
00:30:16.840but if your fundamentals make sense obviously uh there are so many countries in the world
00:30:22.920obviously countries get along and they make their own choice so i'm getting a better understanding
00:30:28.820of what you're saying um that yes quebec quebec is a maybe a net recipient of federal dollars
00:30:37.300but auto was just so inefficient and duplicative that independence even without a net influx of
00:30:44.560federal dollars you'd still be ahead um slightly ahead that's what the figures say slightly slightly
00:30:50.400better off but but then you would have total autonomy to do it as you see film room strategy
00:30:54.960Yeah. And, you know, you would have, I guess to kind of come back to what I was saying earlier, you know, more autonomy or total independence to protect your culture, your way of life, language, etc.
00:31:08.040when i'm having discussions about alberta independence versus quebec independence
00:31:14.560with people um i i use it's an imperfect analogy but i you know they're very different kinds of
00:31:23.220nationalism as i've said one alberta's is a tends to be more civic nationalism although
00:31:28.200defending our culture is becoming an issue as mass migration becomes a huge issue that's actually
00:31:33.200becoming an issue here now um where it wasn't really previously um but you know i i've i've
00:31:40.140said that uh you know uh quebec for quebec nationalists um or people who might be in the
00:31:47.760middle on that um you know their heart tells them independence but their brain tells them
00:31:53.000canada because because of the because of equalization things like that you've made and
00:31:57.140you've made your point on it yeah but i think it's the opposite but but i've said their brain
00:32:00.980will keep to the conclusion that we should be
00:32:02.860a country, and then fear will come into
00:33:28.220This was not healthy. What I want to say is that you are maybe entering a new phase where you are now in Quebec's position, where you would like something else than the liberals in power, and then you realize it's not going to happen, even in extreme circumstances.
00:33:49.200That's Quebec's situation with the Bloc Québécois for decades.
00:33:53.320If we express what we want at the federal level, oftentimes, vast majority of times, the answer will be Bloc Québécois.
00:34:03.660That Bloc Québécois cannot rule, cannot be in power.
00:34:07.840It can basically act as a defensive mechanism.
00:34:14.220against uh abuses of powers and there are so many so they they do their best but it's not
00:34:20.860sustainable it's not something you want forever so the block of the court was meant to be a very
00:34:25.900short-term mechanism so i i i'm not from alberta so i don't want to but i imagine that after trudeau
00:34:35.980trudeau's government i mean if you end up that there's no alternative there's no rotation
00:34:42.540It might trigger questions that we have for a long time, thinking if we cannot have, if we don't have any probabilities or reasonable rotation of what we think cures what we dislike with, for instance, the Trudeau government, people will start asking themselves, okay, so what are the other options?
00:35:08.080because we're pretty not heard, we're pretty much out of the system.
00:35:14.240And it's the case as well with judiciary power.
00:35:17.460So the more the judiciary power takes power over democratic choices of parliaments,
00:35:24.000if those judges are almost all aligned with the Liberal Party of Canada
00:35:27.920in terms of way of thinking and ideology,
00:35:30.640those questions exist in Quebec for decades.
00:35:33.100they might become more present and relevant in alberta given what i've just mentioned
00:35:39.360as a political development in ottawa um
00:35:43.480i'm trying we're limited on time so i'm trying to figure out which one i want to get it uh your
00:35:51.120staff is going to get angry for me i go too far over uh so maybe i'll just you could be a short
00:35:55.340real short one on this um certain areas uh part of my family comes from bavaria in germany yeah
00:36:01.800And Bavaria has a different title that it calls itself.
00:36:06.440It's not just a lander, a state in Germany.
00:36:09.060It calls itself a free state, Freistadt.
00:36:11.280I know you want independence, but as an interim step,
00:36:13.940I've talked about Alberta should stop.
00:36:15.680One thing I've really admired is Quebec,
00:36:18.140especially Quebec national politicians,
00:42:04.220Yeah, but if failing independence, if independence is not successful, is there a kind of grand bargain from your perspective that you think you could make that would make the Quebec nation happy and content within Canada that would work for you?
00:42:23.380to the question what does quebec want the answer is clear crystal clear quebec wants
00:42:31.960self-determination democratic self-determination why because it's the only model that gives
00:42:38.380a future to our specificity linguistic and cultural other financial reasons have
00:42:44.740joined the reasons, but basically that's it. So, I mean, the only reason why
00:42:52.740federal prime ministers engaged into such complicated negotiations and talks
00:43:01.820was that they felt there was a direct threat to their power and their regime. They didn't do that
00:43:10.060in good faith because they just like to improve the life of Quebecers or Albertans.
00:43:15.820So it might happen that as Quebec's sovereignty movement, independence movement, grows in strength
00:43:22.780and probably Alberta's same movement grows in strength, you'll find federal politicians
00:43:31.100nervous saying, okay, let's renegotiate in good faith. I think we've been through that
00:43:37.500And anything under self-determination in terms of our laws, our finances, and international relations
00:43:44.060will not work for Quebec because it will not work for our linguistic, cultural, and financial specificity.
00:43:53.200However, once it's done, so once Quebec declares independence,
00:44:00.020I think if Alberta declares independence, Quebec will follow, same here, vice versa.
00:44:05.860If Quebec goes, I think Alberta will say, okay, I'm also independent.
00:44:11.080In which case, we will talk to each other about what framework would be useful on a number of topics.
00:44:19.880But without the federal trying to grab money and grab power and defend their privileges, without them, without interference and constant abuse of power since 1867, a constitution that we never voted or agreed upon.
00:44:35.100It's in direct link. It's really about the colonial regime for Quebec. So I think it's the other way around. You become independent and a bit like Norway and Sweden or Slovakia and Czech Republic or in many, like, of course, in the following days, I will not be wanting to negotiate with the federal.
00:48:10.920And that's why when you're asking me about how the federal will react in terms of Clarity Act and so on, there's been so many instances where the federal cheated and was dishonest.
00:48:22.920So I don't expect anything else. And yes, some form of collaboration on the fundamentals would be useful. And I think that's why I'm here.
00:48:35.040I'm just your self-determination in Alberta is yours to determine.
00:48:41.880And if you feel you have a common identity and common interests that are worth becoming a country, good for you.
00:48:49.440And it's not for me to have a judgment on it.
00:48:52.260But if I can be useful to democracy or if we can be useful to our both our interests, economic interests in the short term and so on,
00:49:01.780And why not talk instead of being in that weird equalization and federal framework where nobody agrees because the interests are just not compatible and the abuse of power is so constant, it creates frustration.
00:49:16.480So I think in a way, the reason I'm here is exactly that. So we can talk at least and see what positive could come in the next decades, given the decade we just experimented under the liberals, federal liberals.
00:49:31.780Well, I think it's been a fascinating conversation. I think this is the kind of conversation, the whole dynamic of it is not something that Quebecers, Albertans, Westerners or Canadians broadly are very used to. So I really appreciate you coming in.
00:49:47.080And I salute all of those who listened and I might be back. So there'll be other opportunities to think about this.
00:49:55.800Our invitation is open. We'd love to have you back. Thank you very much.