Western Standard - December 02, 2025


THE PIPELINE: Did Danielle’s demands work?


Episode Stats

Length

47 minutes

Words per Minute

188.87738

Word Count

8,939

Sentence Count

733

Misogynist Sentences

16

Hate Speech Sentences

11


Summary

The OG Pipeline crew talks abortion, the recall against Alberta's UCP MLAs, and much, much more. Plus, a new documentary explores the controversial topic of late-term abortions in Canada. Thanks to our sponsor, The OG Pipeline!


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Good day. Today is November 26, 2025. I'm Derek Fildebrandt,
00:00:29.040 publisher of the Western Standard, and you're watching The Pipeline. I'm here with the OG
00:00:33.780 Pipeline crew, former Western Standard opinion editor, Nigel Hannaford.
00:00:39.080 I would be late. Good to be here.
00:00:41.200 And Western Standard senior Alberta columnist, Corey Morgan.
00:00:44.100 Always a pleasure.
00:00:45.780 All right. Well, we're going to get into one topic that no one likes to talk about because
00:00:50.940 everyone gets angry. We'll probably maybe even get angry with each other on this show here.
00:00:56.040 Uh, we're talking about late term abortions in Canada. We're told it's exceptionally rare
00:01:01.820 and only in medically necessary, uh, situations. Um, a new documentary out would seem to show,
00:01:10.860 I think fairly definitively, that that is very much not the case. Um, so we're going to be
00:01:15.940 talking about a very, about the touchiest subject you could find in Canada, almost anywhere really,
00:01:22.400 but, uh, we're going to, we're going to talk about late term abortions. Um, the total recall
00:01:29.040 against, uh, Alberta UCP MLAs continues. I think we're up to what, six or eight or so
00:01:35.700 somewhere around there. Uh, 14 now. 14 who have bad approved petitions?
00:01:40.220 I believe so, yeah. Okay. But I mean, it's just an application form. It's really-
00:01:43.680 Yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean much yet. But, uh, efforts to recall essentially the whole, uh,
00:01:48.500 enough UCP MLAs to collapse the government for an election, I guess. Be careful what
00:01:52.780 you wish for, guys. I'm not sure you want an election right now. But, uh, some people
00:01:57.680 are saying that that process is being abused. We need to change the recall legislation.
00:02:03.520 Hmm. I'm not, I'm not so sure. You want recall, you got to accept it when it's used against
00:02:08.680 you too. But we'll get into it. But first, did Daniel Smith's demands of Mark Carney's federal
00:02:14.960 liberal government work? Um, she, uh, the premier laid down a series of nine demands. I think it may
00:02:24.040 have been earlier in the summer, maybe even the spring. It was some time ago. She laid down
00:02:28.380 these demands. Um, and this is all in the background of the looming, likely-ish, uh, Alberta
00:02:36.560 referendum on independence coming, saying, look, if you, uh, it was kind of an or else. And she
00:02:41.140 didn't say what the or else was, but it was more or else. I'm not going to be doing much
00:02:46.440 on the, uh, stay side of the referendum. Uh, I think it was kind of the implication. Not
00:02:51.760 sure if that's fair or not. But, uh, she laid out these demands. They were not all about
00:02:57.380 oil and gas development and pipelines, but I'd say the bulk of them were. There were some
00:03:02.520 items on equalization. Surprise! There hasn't been a peep on equalization. Nothing will ever
00:03:08.140 seem to change there. Um, but there does, knock on wood, appear to be some movement on the natural
00:03:15.280 resource development side of things. Tomorrow, Thursday, Daniel Smith and Mark Carney are
00:03:20.460 appearing at the Chamber of Commerce, where they're going to sign or present a memorandum of
00:03:25.820 understanding. MOUs actually don't really mean anything. They're just kind of, it's an agreement
00:03:30.160 to an agreement. Uh, I was a bureaucrat for one year of my life and we signed an MOU. I was like,
00:03:35.820 oh my God, this is a big deal. It was on internal free trade in Canada. Guess what? Nothing came of
00:03:40.380 it. We spent years on it to get an MOU and nothing came. So, uh, but, you know, so it's about exceptions
00:03:48.240 from the emissions caps, uh, exceptions from the, uh, Northwest coast tanker ban, um, the things like
00:03:58.340 that that would make a pipeline feasible. Um, but David EB is saying, wait a minute, you can't treat
00:04:07.480 me like an Albertan. I get to have some say in this. And so he, he, he's squawking that, uh, he
00:04:12.480 hasn't been consulted and given his permission. Uh, some of the BC native bands are saying something
00:04:18.320 similar. Um, I don't know. Do we have much to cheer about yet?
00:04:23.680 I don't think so. Uh, you know, I, I would actually love to be cheering about this, but
00:04:28.460 here in Alberta, we spend so much time thinking about it from our point of view that we don't
00:04:34.420 always think about how the federal government is seeing it and how Mr. Carney in particular
00:04:40.100 is seeing it. No, I mean, what does, yeah, we've got nine demands. What does, what does Mr.
00:04:46.460 Carney have that he wants to, to get done? He wants the problem to go away. He wants actually
00:04:53.540 the appearance of a settlement. He's just come back from a meeting in Brazil where everybody was
00:05:00.680 talking about how to, uh, how, how to take the carbon out of the climate. And now he's got to come
00:05:07.720 back and he's expected to do work out something with the premier of Alberta who wants to develop
00:05:13.080 more oil. So what he's doing is building a situation where it looks like he's agreeing, but he's got an
00:05:21.900 escape route. He won't have to go through with it. I am very pessimistic about, uh, this, this, uh,
00:05:27.920 particular, uh, I mean, I hope I'm wrong, but I actually don't see any good coming out of this.
00:05:34.320 He has, apart from a constituency that's interested in climate change, he himself has made it very clear
00:05:41.820 how he sees the climate change. He wants to, he wants to get less carbon emitted. He's come up with
00:05:51.040 this crazy idea that in order to produce oil in the West, you must dairy an equivalent amount of
00:06:00.280 carbon dioxide to what it took to, to make the oil, nothing like that in the East where they're
00:06:04.660 importing it. And now you just mentioned the condition that BC has to agree. And the indigenous
00:06:13.520 peoples there have to agree. There is his escape route. They will not agree. Thanks Danielle. It
00:06:19.560 was great talking, but we're not, we're not doing anything because BC doesn't agree. Well, wait a
00:06:24.280 minute. You intruded in our space, provincially intrude on theirs. Well, you're out.
00:06:29.620 Well, bring the bowl of water. Wash my hands of it. Yeah. Well, Corey, none of this requires
00:06:37.780 intrusion actually on provincial jurisdiction, uh, interprovincial trade of this kind, the
00:06:43.340 infrastructure crossing provincial and national boundaries or international boundaries is strict
00:06:47.960 federal jurisdiction. The Supreme court ruled on that. That was, you know, one of the rare times
00:06:53.120 where the Supreme courts actually made a sensible, it's written in black and white in the British
00:06:57.880 North America act that assigns the powers one way or another. So it's, it's pretty clear that
00:07:02.540 that's, that's federal jurisdiction. Uh, the court ruled the David E.B. and the BC and D.P. have no
00:07:07.300 standing, whatever, constitutional standing, whatever to interfere. Uh, but I mean, we haven't seen the
00:07:14.840 MOU yet, so I, I don't want to prejudge it. I just think as Albertans, we've, uh, you know, we've,
00:07:21.500 we've played the Charlie Brown football enough by now that maybe we're overly cynical. I don't know.
00:07:27.880 Are we overly cynical here? Or like, is he going to be, are BC natives and the BC government,
00:07:34.540 um, which one of those seniors soon will, who knows, but, uh, are, are, are they going to,
00:07:40.700 you expect they'll actually be given a real veto of some kind or it's just, you know, the MOU
00:07:45.580 will require some basic duty to consult, which would, that's fine. I actually think that's,
00:07:51.300 that's, that's appropriate. Uh, I don't know. Am I overly cynical?
00:07:55.180 Well, part of it is, uh, you're not overly cynical and, uh, part of it, as I was saying
00:07:58.860 to Nigel earlier, and I, I've got limited what I could say, but a little bird told me
00:08:02.160 there is nothing in the MOU that does give a veto to the First Nations or the province
00:08:08.160 of BC, nor should it, because it's not constitutional, as you pointed out, both with First Nations
00:08:12.360 and BC. So Carney has to be a prime minister and he doesn't seem to be willing to. This is
00:08:18.840 fully in his hands. He, he says it's getting done or it's not. And what's missing in all of
00:08:24.500 this, I think are not enough discussion. Maybe that'll pop over the MOU. Where's the private
00:08:28.020 proponent? That's the excuse they like using too. There's no private proponent. Well, none of them
00:08:31.060 are going to, unless they can get through. So they need to see something with the prime minister
00:08:38.480 saying this pipe is going to reach the coast, not this pipe. If we meet this giant long list
00:08:44.900 of conditions, well, nobody's going to pull their wallet out there. No, he's got to be saying,
00:08:48.420 I support this and I'm going to facilitate it. And we can't say that, oh, we'll need 10,
00:08:53.380 20 years of consultation either, because it's been done already. The Northern Gateway,
00:08:58.340 Enbridge already spent, what, a hundred and some million or some, they've done the consultation.
00:09:04.100 I know it expired, but you know what? The mountains are in the same place. The rivers are
00:09:07.220 in the same spot. If anything, pipelines have gotten even better. We have to fast track this or it's not
00:09:13.780 happening. So it's going to be interesting as you say, leading into an AGM for Premier Smith to get
00:09:18.420 out and try and tell the members she has accomplished something. And there has been progress
00:09:25.460 because they're as cynical as we are for the most part. And they want to see her either standing up
00:09:30.660 for Alberta or actually having an agreement that says this pipe is going to go not, oh, we've got
00:09:35.700 another MOU. We're going to talk about it for 10 more years while it dies on the vote.
00:09:39.700 Corey, to your point, the Western Standard has today published the following comment by Mr. Carney
00:09:46.340 in the House of Commons. Word for words, the memorandum of understanding that we're negotiating
00:09:51.940 with Alberta creates the necessary conditions, but not sufficient conditions because we believe in
00:09:59.220 cooperative federalism. We believe the government of BC has to agree. We believe that First Nations,
00:10:05.940 right holders in this country have to agree and support all stakeholders. So they're already, he
00:10:12.260 has laid down conditions under which he says, well, I did my best.
00:10:15.700 And there's already First Nations saying that they're never going to support it under any
00:10:19.460 circumstances. That's where we got to get, we got to define that difference between consultation and
00:10:23.060 consent. We aren't obligated to get consent. And obviously they're saying they're never going to give
00:10:27.060 it. So at this point, it's either tell them to go get stuffed. We're doing this or just give up.
00:10:31.620 That's the two options they got.
00:10:32.740 So I don't know how much of this is Carney saying one thing. I'm not sure if that was
00:10:36.500 in response to an MVP question or conservative question. I think it was conservatives were
00:10:39.940 putting him against the wall.
00:10:40.820 Yeah. So I have a hard time believing that Danielle Smith is going to be willing to stand
00:10:47.540 next to Mark Carney at a press conference and put her name to something that would give BC and
00:10:54.820 native groups in BC a veto one day before the opening of the UCP convention where she's going to face the
00:11:01.860 most hardcore folks in the right who are, I mean, we've been around these folks, they eat leaders
00:11:08.980 for brunch. So, you know, when she goes into there, she likes to flex her Alberta first bona fides.
00:11:15.300 So I'm hesitant to think that she's going to do this one day before facing that kind of crowd.
00:11:23.460 Well, from what I've heard, like I said, that's not in the MOU. So that perhaps tomorrow, it might
00:11:29.140 be an interesting conference because if that comes to the opportunity where she might have to put him
00:11:32.420 on the spot there and say, well, just to clarify, this is not giving a veto to such and such and make
00:11:38.900 him answer it there, because he was absent from question period on this today anyway. So that would
00:11:44.020 be a whole different question. Now, if it was a sabotage, I mean, we really want to see provincial
00:11:47.220 federal relations go bad, you know, during a conference where they're supposed to be holding
00:11:50.580 hands and smiling. But I mean, if she's being undercut before this thing's even signed, perhaps
00:11:56.020 the premier will have a good enough cause to put him to the question while they're standing in front
00:12:00.100 of the cameras. Yeah, I mean, it is. I mean, the United Conservative Party very much inherited
00:12:09.380 from the Wild Rose, the kind of Alberta first strain of DNA in that party's blood. Actually,
00:12:18.580 in many ways, I think the UCP is more Alberta first than the Wild Rose was. I think that's just
00:12:23.540 the Overton window of shit. Well, it's just that the issues are more prescient now, too,
00:12:27.220 than they had been at that time. Yeah. So I mean, the politics, it's always good politics
00:12:34.020 for the Alberta UCP premier to be fighting like hell against the federal liberal prime minister.
00:12:39.380 That's that's good politics. So for her to not play that card and stand next to him at a podium
00:12:46.180 the day before convention leads me to think in all probability, I mean, maybe she's lost her marbles
00:12:51.700 and gone soft. But in all probability, I would bet that she's got a fair degree of faith in it,
00:12:59.220 because I she doesn't like, you know, that there's going to be some people on the harder
00:13:05.300 independence, sovereignty, right side of the party who are critics, and they're going to just take
00:13:10.980 a picture of her standing at a podium. And that's a bad meme. That's a bad meme. So if she's going to
00:13:16.180 give them that, she's probably got to have a fair degree of certainty that no, this is a real thing.
00:13:22.420 Well, I think it's going to go one way or the other. There can be a mushy middle on this.
00:13:26.740 She has to be standing at that podium to have something that can be taken to the bank. Like
00:13:31.460 this is an agreement, and she has to have the prime minister very strongly saying this is going to get
00:13:35.300 done. Or if it's some mushy, we're just signing this again, and we're going to tread water for months,
00:13:40.340 as you said, well, then something has made her addled because she understands that nobody going
00:13:44.580 into an AGM wants a mushy middle position, or if it blows up tomorrow, that goes well going into an AGM
00:13:52.420 as well, because then you give the fire and brimstone speech saying, we tried, we did everything we could.
00:13:57.620 I took my time the day before this to try and come out and do this. And he torpedoed us before we could
00:14:01.940 even get it rolling. I guess we have to look at other alternatives as Albertans to get our resources to
00:14:06.580 market. But a middle is not going to look good. Yeah. And you know, this is in the context of a
00:14:12.980 probable referendum some point next year on independence. And thank you for all your hard
00:14:19.220 work on that, Thomas Nkazic. I appreciate you volunteering your time and your Winnebago or
00:14:26.500 whatever, driving around Alberta, getting signatures so that we can have a vote on independence. It was very
00:14:31.060 generous of the cause. He is forward thinking sometimes.
00:14:36.580 God, you just can't make this shit up sometimes.
00:14:39.380 Yeah. He was probably buzzing from the hairspray and wasn't thinking clearly.
00:14:42.820 Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyway, we're, you know, there's a probable referendum on independence coming.
00:14:50.020 I mean, if there is tangible, like you got a shovel in the ground somewhere, I mean, it's no pipeline
00:14:57.300 is going to get be done and pumping by that time. I'd be honest, that's not reasonable.
00:15:00.500 But if you had a shovel in the ground by the time people vote, uh, I think it would make it
00:15:07.380 damn near impossible for the independent side to win that. And I, and I think it is sad that
00:15:11.700 the whole independence argument gets reduced through just pipelines. It is a hell of a lot
00:15:16.580 more than pipe. In fact, it should maybe be at the bottom of the top five list at this point. I'd say
00:15:24.820 controlling our simple borders might be at the top. If we can't control the Canadian border,
00:15:28.980 then let's at least control the Alberta border. Um, a lot of things, but, uh, I think in terms of
00:15:36.340 the discussion, I mean, the independent side always had the much bigger hill to climb to have any chance
00:15:41.380 of winning. If, if there's real progress and it's like, yeah, no, we're actually building this.
00:15:46.180 There's crews out there right now. There's pictures, there's video of guys digging holes
00:15:50.340 and laying pipe. I, I, I think that kills the chance of winning an independence vote.
00:15:55.780 It would indicate that other things can get done as well. I mean, that's one symbol. So we're saying,
00:15:59.380 well, if it could be negotiated to get a pipeline through, then maybe it's possible to negotiate on
00:16:04.180 immigration or negotiate on, uh, equalization or some of those other areas. So it will be a big
00:16:10.100 symbolic win that would undercut the independence movement, uh, strongly, but they got to move fast.
00:16:14.740 You know, people are impatient. That's the bottom line. They don't want to see it. I mean,
00:16:18.180 Kearney loves his hockey analogies. Well, it looks to us like he's ragging the puck and we're not,
00:16:23.780 people don't have time for it anymore. You get something going or quit playing us.
00:16:27.380 Well, people in Alberta don't have any time for it anymore. Maybe this plays really well
00:16:32.580 back in central Canada.
00:16:33.700 Oh, very bossy.
00:16:35.620 He's taking the cousins to Alberta and he's going to lay about the Alberta government.
00:16:40.340 Tell them exactly where they stand. That's good. That won't play well in Alberta,
00:16:44.900 but that could be Chris to his mill in Ontario, Quebec.
00:16:47.860 Yeah. We can't always look at it for our lenses.
00:16:49.860 Well, that's the thing we get. It's very easy to forget what might be in it for him.
00:16:54.740 Yeah. Cause where does some of his MPs are getting pretty upset with the possibility.
00:16:58.180 Some of the BC ones who are kind of doctrinaire on this stuff.
00:17:01.700 All right. Well, speaking of laying into the Alberta government, um,
00:17:04.580 let's talk about the recall campaign. We've gotten into this before. So this is coming out of the
00:17:12.580 Alberta UCP government, uh, legislating an end to the teacher strike, uh, sending them back to work.
00:17:20.820 They still legislated them a sweetheart deal. I mean, it was a great frigging deal that they got for
00:17:25.140 themselves. I thought the UCP should have legislated them back to work with a pay cut.
00:17:28.500 Um, like not even more charter schools to be transferred. As you said, I liked that.
00:17:34.100 Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I don't think they actually should have legislated them back to work. I think
00:17:37.060 they just should have said every day, convert a public school into a charter school until the
00:17:40.420 union begs for an end to the strike. Um, walk them out essentially, I'd say, uh, that's not what
00:17:46.340 happened. Anyway, the ATA was legislated back to work. They lost their shit. They went, uh, they got
00:17:51.540 very, very angry. The notwithstanding clause was used. So it's just bulletproof from a legal challenge
00:17:56.420 because the Supreme Court's made some bizarre rulings in the last years where, uh, apparently
00:18:04.100 individual rights are also now union rights. They, unions have the same rights as individuals. So, um,
00:18:12.340 they lost their mind and they decided to, uh, initiate recall campaigns against Alberta UCP MLAs.
00:18:19.140 Some of them seem pretty dumb. They're going after MLAs who had massive margins of victory. I guess
00:18:25.460 Daniel Smith had a big margin of victory in Brooks Medicine Hat, but she's the premier. She's very
00:18:29.380 symbolic. So they may as well take a shot at that. I guess, um, you know, they're going after other
00:18:34.820 ones who have big margins of victory, like up in Grand Prairie. Uh, and then other ones. Now,
00:18:40.020 the one that I think is probably their smartest to go after. Sorry, Demetrius is the education minister.
00:18:44.660 He's symbolic. He's the education minister. They hate him. And Calgary Bowl had an extremely,
00:18:48.900 uh, his constituency in Calgary Bowl had a very, very narrow margin of victory for him.
00:18:54.740 So strategically or tactically, that that's a, that's maybe a smarter one, but they're going
00:18:58.580 after all sorts of others. Angela Pitt, she had a pretty big margin of victory. Um,
00:19:03.700 but they're going after them very clearly based on government policy. And a lot in the UCP are
00:19:10.820 stating that, well, that's not fair game. Um, we need to change the rules around here. Now,
00:19:15.780 some of it, I think is more legitimate complaints. Like, uh, the legislation says that the people who
00:19:21.540 are canvassing for signatures have to live in the constituency. I actually don't think that should
00:19:25.940 be a rule necessarily because constituencies, as I could tell my experience, get gerrymandered.
00:19:31.620 I strongly differ on that part. Yeah, it is. Okay. But, but, or, or maybe they have to at least
00:19:36.500 be in an adjacent one because, because constituencies, particularly urban ones, I mean,
00:19:41.700 you live on one side of a street, you're in one constituency, you live on the other side of the street,
00:19:45.780 you're in another. And it's just some, some dink sitting in a commission somewhere appointed by
00:19:50.420 political parties who drew that. Sometimes. Well, I know it. I live 800 meters from a UCP
00:19:56.580 member and I have an NDP member for mine. I'm half a mile out of the border and they gerrymandered it
00:20:01.220 actually because they wanted an NDP rural seat. So they made that one. It frustrates me, but I still
00:20:06.580 think when it comes to overturning an MLA, it should only be the people living under that constituency.
00:20:11.460 In an election, you're allowed to campaign in any constituency you want. In fact, people come
00:20:14.820 from other provinces, even other countries in campaign. Yeah. So, you know, if you're allowed
00:20:18.420 to go and volunteer to elect someone in a different riding, we do it in general elections and by
00:20:22.820 elections, I think you should be allowed to do it for recall too. And you know, let's remember a lot
00:20:27.060 of people who are against what's happening with recall here right now. Uh, we were all gearing up to
00:20:33.060 recall Jason Kenney, but from the right. Yeah. Uh, but that was province wide. That was, uh, no, but to
00:20:39.300 recall him in his own seat. He was going to probably end up getting recalled if, if potential until, uh,
00:20:43.700 essentially the party recalled him by forcing a leadership review of him. They recalled him at the
00:20:48.180 leadership level, but he was good to otherwise probably get recalled at the MLA level.
00:20:53.460 So I guess there's two points. One is the rules are you have to live in the ride. I don't think it's a good
00:20:58.980 rule, but that is the rule. And that appears very much to be aggressively violated by the organizers
00:21:03.780 here. Um, I think the UCB have got a point there, even if I think it's a bad part of the law where I
00:21:10.500 think they don't have a point is they're saying, well, you're just disagreeing with us on government
00:21:14.020 policy. You have to have a very specific reason, some kind of misconduct to recall someone.
00:21:21.060 I don't think so. Again, you've got, you know, what's, what's, what's a big deal for someone might
00:21:28.500 not be like Bev Oda. People got pissed off at $28 glass of orange juice. I mean, this part was
00:21:34.180 15, 16, sorry. With inflation, it's 28 years. Um, $16 glass of orange juice. That is not a serious
00:21:40.420 thing, but it blew up into a serious thing. So then is a judge going to sit there and say, well,
00:21:44.660 this is worthy of recall. And this is not, um, broken promises. Sometimes promises are legitimately
00:21:51.780 broken. You made a promise. He got in. Turns out the facts on the ground are different, or the
00:21:55.780 government's got no money. Hey, we don't actually have money for this anymore. Are we really going
00:22:00.180 to let, uh, have a court decide if someone, if a politician broke his promise or if this scandal
00:22:06.340 is serious or non-serious? I think the UCP are kind of grasping at straws on this thing saying that,
00:22:11.860 well, you have to have a better reason that you disagree with the government policy.
00:22:14.740 They pulled the trigger on the government's own policy. It's the sort of thing I've done in the past.
00:22:17.940 Uh, my NDP nomination run when they left it wide open for anybody to register
00:22:21.780 policies against it. And be on there. And then it's amazing. They changed their policies within
00:22:25.460 two weeks and suddenly I disappeared as an NDP nomination candidate. Let's make sure we pull up
00:22:30.020 a picture from, uh, Corey's nomination there. He's a reference and I ran hard. Yeah. You ran for
00:22:35.060 the nomination. It was a bath can ask us. Yes. Yes. You had the, pardon the language,
00:22:39.060 you had the pussy hat and everything. Yeah. It was probably dressed in NDP wear for the time.
00:22:43.220 Yeah. And then they shut down my campaign. Uh, but that's using their, their policies against them.
00:22:47.540 That's what they're doing with the recall. Uh, as annoying as it may be, it's fair
00:22:50.980 game. It is. And I don't think as long as those rules are followed, that they're going to succeed
00:22:55.300 in many, if any of them, as you said, Highwood, they're going after RJ Sigurdsson. They've never
00:23:01.060 had under 70% support for the UCP there. I would not want to be a door knocker going to the door
00:23:06.420 saying, Hey, will you sign this petition with your name address? Cause that's the thing people got to
00:23:10.420 realize, but right now, all they're doing is putting in a form and a fee. Anybody can do that.
00:23:14.900 Yeah. That takes 20 minutes. Yeah. Uh, the news is reporting it as if there's this wave.
00:23:19.140 Well, then there's a vote on if there will be a bioactive. Yeah. So this is a long process. So
00:23:25.300 you have to get signatures from 60% of the people who voted in the last election within a timeframe.
00:23:30.500 You can't flood it with outside help and rest assured there will be a lot of UCP supporters
00:23:35.620 who will want to see a couple of violations. Cause that'll give them an excuse to say this is
00:23:39.220 invalid and thrown out. Uh, as you said, cover bow is maybe the closest they could come to it.
00:23:44.100 But even then that's a tough task. I mean, not everybody's eager to see a
00:23:47.220 by-election or whatnot. Even some who don't like the, the MLA, they might say, well, I'll still
00:23:51.860 hang on till, uh, the next election. Like I like recall and referendum legislation. I like using
00:23:57.220 Switzerland as a model, but something that's different there is the citizens take it very
00:24:00.740 seriously. So if somebody shows up with a frivolous campaign at their door and says,
00:24:04.500 will you sign this? They'll say, no, I'm not interested. Not that Canadian politeness.
00:24:08.020 So I'll just sign. No, it just, I don't like this. I won't sign. So it's incumbent,
00:24:13.460 I think on the same time for that culture to develop here. Like they haven't had initiative.
00:24:17.380 We haven't had recall, no, any practical way. Pretty much now they're putting it to the test.
00:24:21.700 And you know, it really wants people, if people get the idea that this is a serious
00:24:27.220 effort by the opposition to defrone the government, not just take out an MLA who has been an idiot,
00:24:36.340 then the tide is going to turn against this recall. Now that's the thing. They have to get that message
00:24:42.020 out because otherwise people are saying, oh, whatever, you know.
00:24:46.180 Yeah. Like different stuff. But the complaint is saying, like the UCP is talking about
00:24:51.460 changing some of the rules. They haven't said definitively. Yeah.
00:24:55.060 I'm not sure how you can, because it comes pretty subjective when you're getting into
00:24:58.500 what he is or isn't. It really should be. I've been disagreeing.
00:25:01.380 I think on a communications front, you can say that these guys are being frivolous or wrong.
00:25:05.220 Just don't change the rules. Like the example I use is, is Dara Hetherington. I keep bringing her up.
00:25:09.380 And for those who remember, you might not have been in Alberta at the time yet. She was a city
00:25:13.300 councillor in Lethbridge who went very much off the rails, a fake kidnapping story, took off to Las
00:25:18.660 Vegas, very bizarre, but they couldn't get rid of her. She, she still had that seat on council and as
00:25:24.500 loopy as she'd been and so on, she potentially could have been stuck in there for years because
00:25:29.700 you just have no mechanism to have somebody, even though they've proven themselves just to,
00:25:34.900 you know, she needed treatment, not a seat. You know, I mean, just, it's a mental health thing.
00:25:39.860 Oh no. Are you sure it's left? I thought it was in Edmonton.
00:25:42.180 It was left bridge.
00:25:43.060 It was an Edmonton councillor who would do that.
00:25:44.340 Well, you're thinking of, uh, uh, uh, Tucker Gomberg. And that poor fellow ended up committing
00:25:49.300 suicide jumping off Confederation Bridge. He wanted to flood the Edmonton city streets to build,
00:25:52.980 uh, so people could skate to work.
00:25:54.740 I've heard worse ideas for Edmonton.
00:25:56.820 Yeah. But he was a city councillor, but similar sorts of things. You see, when they are so clearly,
00:26:00.580 though, something has happened or whatever, or they've done something where they just are no
00:26:03.620 longer fit, we don't have a mechanism to remove them. But theoretically, it should just only be
00:26:08.500 when it gets that bad before you really start doing it. But how do you put, how do you put
00:26:14.020 gates to make sure that doesn't help me?
00:26:15.380 That's the problem. And I'm not saying this is the UCP's plan. It's not as far as we know, but
00:26:20.020 you know, some prominent voices within it are saying, you know, and some of the MLAs being subject to
00:26:24.020 this are saying, well, no, the rules should say like, there has to be clear misconduct. Well,
00:26:28.420 that means that's going to become a legal case. And yeah, misconduct's a different thing too.
00:26:33.460 Yeah. Okay. So like Sean Chu, the Calgary city councillor, uh, was in some pretty hot water,
00:26:38.260 but he was never charged and convicted with a crime. He did some things which were questionable
00:26:43.780 a long time ago and voters deserve to render their decision. Uh, but he kind of, the way with
00:26:50.500 advanced voting, he still got elected, couldn't be recalled. Okay. But is it always criminal behavior?
00:26:56.660 Like not many are going to be, I think criminal makes it more clear. They'll often just resign
00:27:01.300 its race anyways, but, uh, it's, it's those, but also what, like, what if it's, um, you know,
00:27:06.100 a politician refuses to hand over their gun to the cops. Okay. Well that's criminal technically,
00:27:12.740 but so, okay. Like it just gets way too subjective. You have recall or you don't have recall. And the
00:27:20.500 general rule of thumb is you're going to agree with the reason what it's a politician you don't want,
00:27:24.500 don't like, and you want to recall. And you're going to disagree with it when it's a politician
00:27:27.620 you do like, who's on your side. Well, if the person's principled, they wouldn't. I mean,
00:27:30.820 I wouldn't want to see one against Nietzsche because it would just be a waste of paper,
00:27:34.020 a waste of pounding the street. I'd love to see Nietzsche gone. I've got no use for the man.
00:27:37.220 But I wouldn't sign the petition. He was popularly elected in, in Edmonton Strathcona. Nobody
00:27:42.500 other than NDP is ever going to win that seat. Quit wasting time. Let's get on the bigger issues.
00:27:47.700 But yeah, well, it's interesting to see what's going to happen because if they come out and
00:27:50.820 shoot down their own legislation, it will undercut the ECP. It'll look bad. It would
00:27:55.300 look bad if they did. I think they could, you know, there's some tweaking on the administrative
00:27:59.940 side. I actually think you should not have to live specifically in it in the constituency because
00:28:04.980 the boundaries are so often arbitrary. You're on one side of the street or you're on the other.
00:28:08.500 I think maybe they should say you have to live in it or in an adjacent riding to it. So like
00:28:12.340 you're living in the general area. So even a gerrymandered riding, people who are naturally a part
00:28:17.620 of that area can still participate. I think that... But can't vote.
00:28:21.140 Well, no, no. Only people in that riding can vote and sign a petition to recall, but they could go
00:28:26.020 into there and, you know, carry... Up on jurors and carry petitions.
00:28:29.700 Yeah, because we allow it for elections. Why would we not allow it for this? That's...
00:28:32.900 Well, maybe we shouldn't allow it for elections. But with elections, it's a party and it's a
00:28:35.780 provincial-wide thing, which is a little different. I mean, we know exactly what will happen if you
00:28:40.020 open it up. But you got to buy elections.
00:28:41.620 You got to buy elections. You got to buy elections. Yeah.
00:28:42.980 People come in from around the country to go for a bargain. And that's what will happen with these
00:28:47.700 if we open it right up. So old Gil and his gang of union hacks are just going to flood into a
00:28:51.780 constituency and pound every door a hundred times over. People will sign just to get these union nuts
00:28:56.340 to stop harassing them. Well, that's what people were going to do against J.C. Kenney. But from the
00:28:59.460 right, get rid of them. They shouldn't have done that either on the local level. Get rid of them as
00:29:03.860 a leader. But as far as an MLA goes, I think that's up to the constituents. Yeah. Well, in this case,
00:29:08.340 the conservatives have a fairly thin majority. So actually, if you got just a few, boom, all of a
00:29:13.940 sudden, the government's lost its majority. And at that point, you're not going to get
00:29:17.060 by-alarm. The premier just calls an election. Yeah. Which is what would happen.
00:29:20.580 That's what would happen. And I mean, you never know what's going to happen. But based on the polls,
00:29:25.540 I don't think it's going to be... You'll be a careful what you wish for
00:29:29.460 circumstances like Fabio and his referendum petition. Thanks again, John. Thanks for that. Thanks for
00:29:36.260 calling an early election. Because I tell you, there's a lot of people in the ECP who would
00:29:40.820 like to call an early election right now. Renew their mandate. They're strong in the polls.
00:29:44.740 They got money in the bank. They're ready for an election. But it looks bad to call an early
00:29:49.780 election, especially when you've got a fixed election date. Daniel Smith remembers what happened
00:29:52.900 to Jim Prentiss. Yeah. I mean, this would give them all the excuse that they need. That'd be a pretty
00:29:58.020 good one. Okay. Oh, geez. Okay. We're going to talk about this one. Late-term abortions.
00:30:10.580 So I think what's called Right Now, it's a kind of student pro-life group came out to put out
00:30:18.180 a documentary around late-term abortions. And then what's the term? Live birth abortions,
00:30:26.580 which is about the most horrific form it can take. I mean, we're told late-term... Canada is
00:30:36.260 pretty much the only country, if not the only country on the planet that has no legislative
00:30:40.980 framework of any kind around abortion. It's just kind of a black hole. It's a legislative hole. It's
00:30:46.580 not technically legal. It's not technically illegal. It's just there. It's floating in space. And
00:30:54.420 we're told that late-term abortions do not happen on an elective basis. It's just not a thing.
00:31:03.380 They're extremely rare. And they're for medically necessary purposes. And if that was the case,
00:31:10.340 where if a woman is going to die, I mean, of course, we should not have two people die.
00:31:16.660 But it's a terrible situation. But yeah, of course, I think most people would agree with that.
00:31:25.140 But that is not actually what is happening here. So this group, they put out their documentary,
00:31:31.940 and they went around to a number of abortion clinics, Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal, I think.
00:31:36.180 And it was a woman. She went in, over 20 weeks pregnant, says, I want an abortion. I'm like,
00:31:44.660 okay. Like, no problem. Casual. No, okay. She says, any restrictions? I'm like, no. I mean,
00:31:51.940 she's like, do I have to be at risk or anything? Or just like, I just want to end it. And she's
00:31:56.820 obviously got an undercover camera here. And they're just, like, blase. Like, this is just a
00:32:05.780 normal administrative thing. No, like, are you? They didn't even say, are you sure? Have you
00:32:11.300 thought about this? It's just, yeah, okay. Step right up. Don't be shy. When they've got some
00:32:18.180 damning numbers. Um, uh, so these late-term abortion, uh, abortions, uh, was it? See,
00:32:28.100 all of the, yeah, the KN Institute for Health Information says, uh, it's normally over a
00:32:33.380 thousand a year. Um, normally this, I think last year was down a bit, but it was normally well over
00:32:39.380 a thousand. There were a, not including Quebec, I guess Quebec's got different numbers. There were
00:32:44.020 123 live birth abortions, and that is where they attempt to kill the fetus inside the womb.
00:32:52.580 Um, and then they go to remove it. The child's removed, and it's still alive. And then they kill
00:32:59.060 it outside the womb, normally with a do not resuscitate. Uh, 28 of those were born alive and
00:33:06.180 viable in Alberta alone and allowed to die. I hate this topic, but like, uh, I watched this
00:33:13.700 thing. It's the ultimate third braille in Canadian politics. Uh, if you, you can't watch this and,
00:33:19.860 and, and, and read this and not think we've got to do something, Nigel.
00:33:24.820 Yes. Well, first of all, let's dispose of a couple of things. One is there is no credibility
00:33:32.180 issue here. When I first arrived in Alberta 25 years ago, the Alberta report, our distinguished
00:33:38.420 ancestor had just published a story about live births at, at the, uh, general hospital.
00:33:49.540 They had a nurse who spoke to them. They had names, they had everything. And this particular
00:33:54.580 nurse explained how, when babies were born alive after an abortion, they just put them on the slab
00:34:01.380 and let them die. And there was scandal and outrage. And in the end, they told the nurses,
00:34:07.700 just shut up and do your job. And that's, that, that was the government approach. Um,
00:34:15.060 but it happens when it, it really does happen. It's not as rare as we were told.
00:34:20.180 And it's been going on for 25 years that I can speak to, and I'm sure it was going on before that.
00:34:24.740 And then in our, in the Western standard, a few days ago, Richard Durr, who is, uh, you know,
00:34:32.580 he's a pro-life activist. He's definitely going to do it like Alberta. Yeah. Pro-life Alberta. Yeah.
00:34:36.900 I mean, this is not an entirely impartial source. Nevertheless, in a letter from Alberta's health
00:34:43.140 minister, Adriana Lagrange, he quotes this line, please know that there is no evidence of live birth
00:34:50.500 abortions in Alberta. I mean, that's just not true. We had, uh, 28. This is from the, if I'm not
00:34:59.540 mistaken, this is from the Canadian Institute of Health Information. Yes. So that's not some, uh,
00:35:03.780 right-wing pro-life Christian fanatic. Exactly. Um, and I, I don't know whether Ms. Lagrange wrote
00:35:11.380 that herself or whether that was prepared for a signature by, by somebody within the ministry. Um,
00:35:17.300 um, but it is not true. And that is the, one of the difficulties that we have with this whole issue
00:35:25.700 is knowing what to believe because the people who want abortion and like abortion and feel that it's
00:35:31.700 a right for women will certainly deny, deny, deny. Uh, in my earlier incarnation, while I was on the,
00:35:39.860 uh, on an editorial board, I visited an abortion clinic with other members of the editorial board.
00:35:47.220 We sat down with somebody who was performing abortions and I said, doesn't it bother you that
00:35:53.460 they, the, the thing that you are trying to abort is feeling pain? You wouldn't even do that to a puppy.
00:36:01.300 Oh, they don't feel pain. That is just not true. When you see images where the needle goes in,
00:36:10.500 the fetus, the baby is squirming and riddling and trying to get away from it. It is the most horrific
00:36:18.740 thing to say. Of course they feel bloody pain. What do these people believe? So it is incredibly hard
00:36:27.220 to have a sensible conversation about abortion because people will deny what is manifestly obvious. And
00:36:35.060 you have, I mean, I use CIHI statistics all the time when I'm talking about COVID. I have no reason to
00:36:43.460 believe that they are wrong when they say that there were a thousand hundreds to a thousand
00:36:52.340 live births. Yeah. That's not even just late term. That's live abortions where it, where a late term
00:36:57.060 abortion fails and the child is still born. So I, you know, this was something I didn't, I didn't get.
00:37:04.820 I had to, I had to ask the question, if you are attacking a baby inside a womb with the standard
00:37:14.020 vacuum cleaner apparatus that we read about, how does anything survive being sucked into a jet engine?
00:37:21.060 Well, the answer is that in certain circumstances, they don't use that technology.
00:37:26.340 They use the injection and then they hold the baby out with the forceps.
00:37:32.820 This is pretty graphic stuff. And I apologize for people who are put off for it. And by the way,
00:37:40.180 in this tragic situation, this is not an anti-woman rant on my part. So often the people who want the
00:37:48.740 abortion more than the woman is the man who's involved in the case. There's a lot of women who have abortions
00:37:54.660 who don't actually want them, but somebody else does. Anyway, leaving that aside and God bless the people
00:38:01.140 who do it, you know, who regret it. Here we have this, this frightful situation where the baby comes out
00:38:12.420 and they just leave it on the slide. Where is the humanity? I, I, I cannot.
00:38:18.900 Yeah. And people don't like discussing it. It's, it's a squeamish, a challenging area. And a lot of
00:38:26.020 people don't even realize it or know it. We are unregulated as Derek said. I think it's through
00:38:29.620 Morgenthaler in the past where that came about. We just have nothing there, which technically means
00:38:34.180 there's nothing to stop this. And we, you know, countries, most countries have some degree of
00:38:39.620 regulation. They draw a line usually around viability. Yeah. And kind of third trimester.
00:38:44.740 Yeah. And, and we're getting well beyond that when live babies are being delivered and this is
00:38:48.820 really problematic. And we got to quit making that excuse. Look, if you snip the umbilical cord,
00:38:52.900 even a premature one and put it into an incubator and then somebody came along and stabbed it,
00:38:56.740 they will be charged with murder. But if it turns out they're saying, well, I wanted an abortion. Well,
00:39:01.060 then we'll let that same child, same one, die. Now we're playing semantics with a murder is what
00:39:07.060 we're doing. And I know nobody likes to talk about it. I'm a libertarian. I, I do believe, you know,
00:39:12.100 that's a separate discussion on early term, uh, ability to do that. You've been pro-choice for a
00:39:18.900 very long time. I have. But even you think that there's got the alliance. The line has to be somewhere
00:39:22.900 in viability. We, we've got a lot of science to start in other countries we could look at with,
00:39:26.900 with where a line can be drawn. And right now when we have that void, but no politician wants to touch it
00:39:30.740 with a 10 foot pole. Also, because anyone who says there should be a line somewhere,
00:39:34.340 even an extremely generous to the pro-choice side line, they'll say, well, that's just the
00:39:41.060 split-degree slots of banning. You know, it's, it's become so fanatical. There was a great old
00:39:44.420 movie that really didn't do that great, I think, but, uh, it was called Citizen Ruth. If you might
00:39:48.980 remember it from the early nineties, it had Burt Reynolds and a few others, but it kind of showed the
00:39:52.740 insanity of both sides. It was a, a glue huffer who was found pregnant and pro-lifers have gotten old
00:39:58.500 ever. And it turned into a big fight between the crazed pro-life bunches and the crazed pro-choice
00:40:03.380 bunches. And it really did show both sides as being fanatically crazed on each end of it, kind of.
00:40:08.740 And I mean, it's serious business, but I mean, that it really, there's no room for nuance anymore.
00:40:15.540 Back when I was, you know, I'll give it a little personal. When I was 20, I had gotten a girl
00:40:19.460 pregnant. We went to, cause we weren't sure what we wanted to do. And we went down town. It used to be out
00:40:24.820 by the, the Cecil, actually the family planning clinic, but, uh, and by the way, that's my son.
00:40:29.940 We made our choice to keep, but when we chatted about it, we wanted to hear all options. We really
00:40:34.580 did. But that person, that counselor or whatever sat with us, there was only one option in her world.
00:40:39.540 Abort, abort, abort, abort. That's all she was doing was convincing. You guys are too young. You
00:40:44.100 aren't in a condition to deal with this. You really must. And we can set you up and giving it, well, again,
00:40:48.900 what were the other options? What about adoption? What about, you know, supports if we want to raise it
00:40:53.460 ourselves, all of that. We didn't get any of that. That's just one example, but that really did sour
00:40:58.740 me on the advocates for this. We really did want to come in there and hear about all the options on
00:41:03.460 the table. We've got advocates who were married to one end or another. And those advocates are, again,
00:41:11.940 they want no regulation under any circumstance. Uh, I don't want to see it as advocates on someone who
00:41:16.740 want to see it, you know, illegalized from the point of conception. Uh, I would like to see a line
00:41:22.820 drawn somewhere. And I think viability is kind of where we can start. Yeah. Well, yeah.
00:41:29.540 You know, the other thing, Derek, we want to see a few lines drawn around
00:41:33.060 life at the other end, too. Medical assistance and dying.
00:41:36.100 Yeah. I think we've erased lines at both ends.
00:41:39.220 True enough.
00:41:40.100 Yeah. That's a damn good point.
00:41:42.340 Um, I mean, where you draw the line, I mean, there's only one really clear line and that would
00:41:48.020 be the hard pro-life side, which is conception. Okay. I'm not prepared to draw it there. Um,
00:41:54.980 even if you think that is like, and you know, but I actually do think that's probably where life
00:42:00.580 is created.
00:42:01.140 It's a big debate. It's a tough one.
00:42:02.980 Yeah. I mean, that is probably where life is, but I mean, it's probably,
00:42:05.860 it's just not a practical place to draw it. Um, somewhere, you know, towards the end of the
00:42:12.820 first trimester is probably a reasonable place. If it's going to be after that, it's got to be where
00:42:16.660 it's absolutely medically necessary. The woman's life is at risk, that kind of thing. But we just
00:42:23.460 are so fixated ideologically in this country. I mean, look at Europe, these crazy dumb ass
00:42:32.420 liberal Europeans, every single one of them, every single European country has some line somewhere.
00:42:39.060 And, you know, and there's a spectrum about where they are.
00:42:42.180 Ireland, I think, had it too strict at one point and a woman died as a result.
00:42:45.620 That was too far in one way. Um, but very, very liberal countries, France, Germany,
00:42:52.500 Britain, uh, Spain, like all, all these, you know, run by lefty countries, they all don't allow this.
00:43:00.340 This is, this is not cool. Um, and I get the conservatives are terrified. They don't want to
00:43:06.420 touch it. And there are things that actually could be done provincially in the provincial
00:43:09.460 government's response. When I was a provincial politician to federal jurisdiction. Well, yes,
00:43:13.700 on the criminal code it is, the administration of healthcare is provincial. And you could decide
00:43:18.500 not to allow this in, in these most extreme cases, because they are not exceedingly rare.
00:43:24.580 They're not the majority of abortion cases, but they're not rare. And they are brutally violent.
00:43:30.260 I said, you wouldn't do it to a puppy. I wouldn't do it to a gopher. So at least what I do to a gopher is a lot more.
00:43:42.660 Jesus, you do it from a distance with a 22. I mean, here's the reality too. And that's quick. I'm glad
00:43:47.860 that they're bringing it to public attention. And hopefully maybe at least it has some impact on some
00:43:53.380 of the women, young women are making decisions and planning and then maybe see the horrors of
00:43:58.260 what waiting too long might turn into a doctorate. This is ghoulish. That too. This is ghoulish.
00:44:03.300 We also know politically, we've been at it so long, the chances of any politician initiate,
00:44:06.980 they're not going to, no, no one's going to touch this. So all you can do is public information and hope
00:44:11.060 for the best right now. Anyways, unless something dramatically changes. Yeah. Okay. I hated that,
00:44:17.860 but you know what? Uh, so anyway, hats off, probably for Alberta, Richard, uh, and, uh,
00:44:24.420 the right now group. Uh, I I'm not with them on a hundred percent of where they go with these things,
00:44:28.500 but I, I think they've done a real public service bringing this forward in a very
00:44:33.140 tasteful way. This wasn't a bunch of graphic images designed to turn so much stomach. I think
00:44:36.740 they, they made a logical argument actually, and they did journalism here, going out, getting
00:44:41.620 information, video, proving their case. So hats off to them. That was, that was good work.
00:44:46.340 Yeah. The front page of the national post of the weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Good one.
00:44:50.660 Okay. Uh, do I have enough time for mine, but you two get a parting shot. We'll, uh, start with
00:44:57.060 Nigel. Well, yeah, I had something else in mind, but you know, what I would say is that if they did
00:45:02.420 outside the womb to a child, what they do inside the womb to an unborn baby, we wouldn't be having
00:45:07.940 this discussion. It wouldn't be allowed. Yeah. Well, and you know, we don't even, uh, we're not even
00:45:12.020 willing to, when a, when a person murders an obviously pregnant woman, uh, we don't give them
00:45:19.220 two counts of murder in Canada, even though that's very often the intent is it's kind of abortion by
00:45:25.300 execution of the mother. It's a man who doesn't want the child that happens. And we, they still
00:45:30.820 only get one count of murder. Uh, God, we're messed up. Corey, take us through another topic.
00:45:38.500 I'll just go through it. It's healthcare, but not nearly as, as, as rough, but, uh, I, I like that,
00:45:42.580 uh, Premier Smith has released bill 11. I just love the irony that I remember bill 11 when Ralph
00:45:46.740 Klein did it. Yeah. We're looking at healthcare reform and he backed off and he said that was
00:45:50.260 one of his great regrets. Uh, I hope Premier Smith does not because we need healthcare reform
00:45:54.820 terribly. Uh, please, Ms. Smith, stand your ground on this one. Let's get that, uh, private public,
00:46:00.900 uh, ability out there because our system's failing and people can't deny it anymore.
00:46:05.780 All right. Gentlemen, Nigel, Corey, John around the studio. Thank you very much.
00:46:12.900 Thank all of you for joining us today on the pipeline. Remember, if you're not a member,
00:46:17.140 you're freeloading, you cheap bastard. Go to westernsnetter.news right now, click on subscribe,
00:46:22.260 $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year for unlimited access to all Western standard content
00:46:26.580 and get past the paywall blocking you from getting the very best news in the West. Oh,
00:46:32.020 yeah. And one last thing, uh, the United Conservative Party's AGM is this weekend.
00:46:37.700 The Western standard crew is headed north, uh, to cover it all weekend in Edmonton. We are going
00:46:44.820 to be throwing a very large, very loud and boisterous hospitality suite. The Western standard rager,
00:46:52.260 we're calling it, um, free drinks, free food. It's going to be a lot of fun to be right at the
00:46:57.540 convention grounds. So if you're, uh, an Alberta unit conservative party member or visiting from
00:47:02.420 out of province and you go into the convention, uh, come on by and have a drink on us. Thank you
00:47:07.460 very much for joining us today and God bless.