Western Standard - The Pipeline - Episode 1 - Kenney Goes to Ottawa

00:00:00.000 Welcome to The Western Standard's The Pipeline. My name is Paul Holmes and I'm the digital editor

00:00:15.040 with Western Standard and joining me today is Derek Fildebrandt, publisher of The Western

00:00:20.400 Standard. Derek, how are you? I'm cold. You're cold. And that's because you're coming from Calgary, 0.98

00:00:27.360 Alberta, and I'm coming from the beautiful and balmy Victoria, British Columbia. Both west,

00:00:32.080 but a little different. Yeah, don't rub it in. Fair enough. So, of course, this being our very first

00:00:41.600 official episode of The Pipeline, I think we should probably start with an overview of

00:00:47.920 the Western Standard and the relaunch thereof, which has been an amazing success. Why don't you tell

00:00:54.400 the audience on YouTube for the very first time a little bit about where we're at and how we got

00:01:01.200 there? Well, about a month out from the federal election, I was looking at the math and without

00:01:10.560 patting my own back too much, I thought the result would be almost exactly what we got. And I had a

00:01:17.520 feeling that the growing sentiment in the West, in particular, the West outside of Victoria would

00:01:27.440 react very negatively to this. And my feelings didn't change. My feelings around Western issues

00:01:35.600 are more structural in nature, don't really depend on what party of politicians in power at any given

00:01:39.840 time. But I looked at the media landscape and the political landscape. And I thought there would be,

00:01:46.880 there was a huge vacuum for an independent media source focused on Western issues that isn't owned

00:01:56.000 or serving interests in Central Canada or the United States, but that is owned and operated

00:02:03.280 and staffed purely in Western Canada, focusing on Western issues that would provide both credible news

00:02:13.840 on the news side of what we're doing. That wouldn't be into some, maybe some of the flakier stuff you

00:02:19.360 see from independent media sites out there. But that would also couple it with a strong opinion side.

00:02:25.040 So we recruited a great team of strong opinion columnists. We also built a good news team as well.

00:02:30.960 And so in our short early time here, we've had fantastic success in building a new Western

00:02:39.440 standard just on the legacy of the old Western standard that I hope is doing it proud. And we

00:02:46.480 just closed out our first full month of November with a hair under 800,000 readers, which, when you

00:02:53.520 take bounce rates into account, would, by our math, make us the third largest or third most read online

00:03:00.880 news site in Western Canada. So for our first month, I'm pretty happy with that.

00:03:05.120 Yeah, it's not bad.

00:03:06.160 It's not bad.

00:03:07.280 So, you know, we're chugging along. We're full steam ahead here. I'm not going to stop until we

00:03:16.880 can buy the Toronto Star, which at current stock prices should be in about a month or two.

00:03:21.200 But yeah, we've had a tremendous success here providing an independent media voice for Western

00:03:29.280 Canada, not supported by any government subsidies. We refuse to take it. But supported by members

00:03:36.640 of the Western standard can go on to the membership section of westernstandardonline.com, become a

00:03:41.280 regular monthly contributor, because if you want to see this kind of thing, people have to pay to

00:03:48.480 pay to help keep it going. But I want to thank everybody who's done it so far.

00:03:54.720 Awesome. And for those who don't know the the old Western standard, their story, of course,

00:04:01.600 they were a print magazine. They kind of formed from the ashes of the previous Western report. I guess

00:04:09.200 some of the same staff started the Western standard. And, and then the became very famous with the

00:04:17.280 publication of the Muhammad cartoons. And I guess shortly, not too much long thereafter, 0.81

00:04:25.520 they just, they, they, they stopped printing the magazine. And of course, the industry was in a

00:04:30.560 crazy amount of turmoil at the time. But any, any background or any sort of high points that you

00:04:36.800 want to highlight, you know, around the old Western standard and maybe some parallels with what you're

00:04:41.760 trying to put together? Well, it was a different beast there. They were trying to do print and

00:04:47.040 they maybe didn't know, I don't think they knew it when they started it, but they were starting a print

00:04:51.280 publication exactly the time that print was dying. Yeah. I don't believe print will ever completely die,

00:04:57.440 but it certainly is not, you know, the print industry is a shell of its former self. They were coming in just

00:05:03.440 as things were moving to online and they, they didn't hop on the online train fast enough.

00:05:07.680 Uh, I never truly understood why they folded until, uh, until I took ownership of the Western standard.

00:05:14.800 And, uh, I actually think they could have continued to make a go of it, but, uh, for, for one reason or

00:05:19.840 another, they decided to call it a day. But, uh, I, I remember very fondly, uh, you know, I, I would eat

00:05:25.840 ramen noodles a couple days a month in the university, just so I could afford my Western standard subscription.

00:05:30.960 And, uh, I think I had about six months left on my subscription when it folded. And so I felt I needed

00:05:37.120 at least six months more Western standard. So I figured why not just start it again?

00:05:41.600 Did they give you your money back?

00:05:43.200 They did not give me my money back, but I own it now. So I suppose it's.

00:05:46.160 All right. Well, that's, uh, that's the best of karma, right?

00:05:51.040 Right on. Okay. So, uh, so we're going to cover the, the weekly national, um, affairs,

00:05:59.040 and we're going to start with some of the, uh, topics, the idea of this show,

00:06:03.440 for those who are tuning in for the first time, the idea is that we're going to cover

00:06:06.720 obviously Western focused, but national, uh, topics. And the big highlight this week,

00:06:12.720 of course, is the fair deal, uh, panel with, um, Jason Kenney and, uh, his trip to Ottawa

00:06:19.920 and, uh, some of the topics around that. So, uh, where do we want to start there? Do you want

00:06:24.960 to start with the, um, his trip to Ottawa and the outcomes there?

00:06:29.200 Well, maybe we'll start with the panel itself in the tierings in Alberta,

00:06:32.400 and then maybe we'll talk about, uh, Mr. Kenney's trip to Ottawa.

00:06:35.920 You were there for the panel last night.

00:06:39.120 Yeah. Yeah. So it's, uh, this fair deal panel was struck, uh, roughly a month ago,

00:06:45.040 uh, by premier, uh, JC Kenney. It gave it a mandate to examine a number of issues on Alberta,

00:06:51.200 asserting its own jurisdiction under areas that has control of under the constitution,

00:06:56.000 but does not currently exercise. And, uh, this panel's got a number of eminent people on it who

00:07:02.240 have, uh, started out on the fair deal panel roadshow across Alberta. It's gone through Edmonton

00:07:08.640 and Red Deer so far. I'm not sure if it's hit any others, but those are the two I'm aware of. It hit

00:07:13.440 Calgary last night and, uh, we were on the ground. It was, it was an interesting experience. It, um,

00:07:21.360 there was a, there was a group, it's hard to say how many, because it was a large room, mostly full.

00:07:28.480 And, uh, there was a group, uh, organized by some unions to show up and have, you know, kind of wave

00:07:34.880 the flag a bit. And, uh, but the room was overwhelmingly dominated by, uh, people who,

00:07:43.200 uh, to one degree or another, were all just competing to demonstrate how the degree to

00:07:47.200 which they're pissed off and want a fair deal. Um, you know, so the, the union guys would come up

00:07:54.080 and they would, they would say this, they had this bizarre thing. They would come and, uh, you know,

00:07:59.360 for people who regularly decry nationalism, they would stand up there and declare themselves patriots.

00:08:04.880 And, uh, say, I'm a Canadian patriot. How they are you? Uh, this entire exercise isn't just a bad

00:08:09.840 idea. Uh, the ideas you're considering aren't just a bad idea. The, the exercise here is unpatriotic.

00:08:14.960 Um, Alberta doing what Quebec has done is anti-Canadian, but I've never heard any of these

00:08:20.160 people. And I recognize some of them. I haven't heard a single one of them ever mentioned about

00:08:24.000 how it's unpatriotic for Quebecers to rule in their own house, but it is unpatriotic for Albertans to do so.

00:08:31.600 And, uh, so these people seem to think the entire thing is been struck to ferment independence,

00:08:37.840 which is a bizarre idea. The, uh, I think

00:08:41.120 Isn't it kind of the opposite? Isn't the whole idea to try to try to affirm a better place within

00:08:47.600 Confederation so that the independence, the waning Wexit movement, uh, doesn't sort of gain ground and

00:08:53.760 and gain strength? That's exactly as I see it. I mean, uh, these people are

00:09:00.400 they're essentially just touching a completely different side of the elephant here. They, they,

00:09:06.000 they seem to think any discussion of Alberta, uh, getting a better deal in Confederation is somehow

00:09:12.000 Alberta trying to leave Confederation. What they don't understand is there is a critical mass in

00:09:17.680 Alberta right now that is open to independence. Uh, there's not a clear majority ready to vote

00:09:22.960 tomorrow for independence, but there is a, I think there's a clear majority who are open to the idea.

00:09:27.920 Uh, quite a few are, I think ready to vote for it, but I think, uh, them added to the middle group,

00:09:35.920 the reformers, I'll call them. Uh, there's a clear majority in Alberta that if they cannot

00:09:42.000 achieve a place of, uh, of what they view as fairness in Alberta are ready to move towards independence.

00:09:47.280 And I think Jason Kenney is terrified of this, uh, from a purely political and partisan perspective.

00:09:53.600 Uh, he would be the direct loser of that because these people would be coming straight from the 1.00

00:09:58.720 base of the United Conservative Party, uh, who are, who voted for him to go and fight Ottawa,

00:10:04.720 get this fair deal. And if they don't get it, uh, there's going to be some hell to pay.

00:10:09.120 Well, there's, there's a legacy issue as well, right? I mean, Jason Kenney doesn't want to go

00:10:13.760 down in history as the, um, as the premier that allowed Canada to break up, right? I mean, who wants

00:10:20.400 that on your resume, right? Yeah. I mean, these guys are going around saying, oh, he's a closet

00:10:24.880 separatist trying to become the president of Alberta. Look, I, I think I know him better than

00:10:32.560 most people who are not in his inner circle at least. And, uh, the man is a staunch federalist.

00:10:38.880 He, I think he's Canadian first, Alberta second. Um, not to say that he's not going to stand up for

00:10:44.320 Alberta, but he, he is very much a Canadian federalist and, uh, the same people, you know,

00:10:50.720 the, the domestic left, I would call them in Alberta. Uh, they do exist. And, um, none of these

00:10:58.480 people have ever said there's anything wrong with, uh, with Quebec standing up for itself.

00:11:04.560 Um, in fact, they almost facilitate Quebec independence if they wanted to, like the NDP

00:11:08.400 regularly talk about watering down the clarity act, make it even easier for them to leave.

00:11:12.640 But if, uh, if Albertans talk about simply doing what we're allowed to under the constitution,

00:11:17.600 respecting our jurisdiction, we're called traitors. So this is all not to stoke independence. This is

00:11:23.280 to throw a wet blanket on it. And depending on what comes out of it, it might work. It might not.

00:11:29.200 If, uh, if, if this panel comes out and says, uh, we're going to demand a triple E Senate,

00:11:35.920 we're going to demand constitutional amendments on free trade and market access,

00:11:41.840 we're going to demand constitutional amendments to, uh, outlaw equalization. Um, and then an

00:11:48.960 Alberta on its own unilaterally withdraws from a bunch of areas of federal control, like police,

00:11:53.920 pensions, et cetera. It might be enough to, uh, to keep things in check here. But, uh,

00:12:01.760 I suspect though, that, uh, Jason Kenney knows he can't get a win from Ottawa on most of these things.

00:12:06.800 And so he's going to, uh, he has been lowering the bar regularly here so that he could try to declare

00:12:12.480 a win. And I, I, I don't think a few, a token win is going to, uh, to pacify Albertans who are

00:12:21.200 demanding a feast at the expense of Ottawa right now. So help, help this British Columbian understand

00:12:27.200 a little bit better. The, um, you know, from, from my perspective, uh, Alberta, affirming,

00:12:34.320 affirming itself and taking the constitutional powers that it's already, that have already been given to

00:12:41.040 it, um, as an entity. Uh, I don't, I don't see, I can't imagine anybody on this side of the coast,

00:12:48.880 uh, this side of Alberta caring, thinking that's a problem, right? We have seen a lot of people

00:12:55.520 ridicule the whole idea of Wexit or Albexit or whatever, whatever you want to call it. Um, the,

00:13:02.240 the separatist movement. And, uh, and I've seen people, you know, crassly do, do so not understanding,

00:13:08.320 obviously some of the frustration. Um, so how much of it is just political where the NDP is not in power

00:13:15.760 in Alberta. The conservatives are trying to, uh, to do this, to try to repair this problem. And so

00:13:23.280 they're just, uh, knee jerk, uh, going against what the conservatives are doing because it's politically

00:13:29.920 they're their opponent. Well, as someone who's been an opposition in LA, I could tell you the instinct

00:13:35.840 is to oppose. Sure. But, uh, there is, it's, I don't think the NDP is opposing just because

00:13:42.080 they're the opposition here. I think they, uh, there is a long ideological tradition in what

00:13:47.440 they're doing in Alberta. Uh, the left has always been outnumbered. Uh, the NDP are the only nominally

00:13:55.840 left-wing party ever elected in Alberta. I mean, we had Allison Redford and, uh, and Jim Prentice who

00:14:02.400 were ideologically moderate center left, but they were technically Tories. Um, but the left can't win

00:14:09.040 elections in Alberta. And so it has from the very beginning of Alberta, the left has always favored

00:14:15.520 greater federal control in Alberta because it's, for them, it's a way to achieve more ideological

00:14:21.520 victories than they would have if Alberta controlled more of its own destiny. If Alberta is simply

00:14:28.800 running its own way, it's going to be a vastly more conservative or libertarian, uh, political

00:14:36.080 environment than it would be if it's sharing more powers with Ottawa, because Ottawa's center of

00:14:41.520 gravity, regardless of who's in power is going to be always to the left of where Alberta is. And so,

00:14:49.360 and so the, uh, and so our, our NDP friends here, uh, or liberals before them have always been in favor

00:14:56.800 of more, more federal control here because not, not because they're necessarily more patriotic, but because

00:15:02.240 it, uh, ensures better ideological outcomes for them. I see. So, so institutionally, uh, it's set up

00:15:09.360 better for, for them politically. Yeah. And, and, you know, in other provinces where the center of gravity

00:15:16.000 is not, uh, to the right of Ottawa, the center of gravity is to the left of Ottawa, uh, leftist parties

00:15:23.440 favor more decentralization. In Quebec, the left favors a lot of decentralization in many respects,

00:15:29.920 uh, because Quebec can do that on their own or in, um, you know, there's been cases in the nineties

00:15:37.600 where, uh, where you had NDP governments in British Columbia, maybe you could speak about this, but

00:15:41.680 governments in British Columbia that fought like hell with the federal government because, uh, when the

00:15:46.960 Kretchen government was balancing budgets and whatnot, they actually kind of moved into the moderate center

00:15:50.640 right. And yet the BC government wouldn't want to assert a lot more control over its own destiny,

00:15:56.000 even though it was the NDP in charge there. Maybe, maybe you can speak about the British Columbia

00:16:00.800 experience. Oh, I, I still have, uh, trauma and counseling about the British Columbia experience.

00:16:08.640 I graduated high school when the NDP was in power, uh, during the period where they, uh, they went

00:16:15.200 through three or four leaders all back to back with scandals and chaos. I have to say, ironically,

00:16:22.000 and I'm a, I'm, you know, as you know, pretty conservative guy, a bit of a bit of a stranger

00:16:28.160 in my, uh, my own house here in British Columbia, but, uh, um, I'm shocked at some of the things that

00:16:34.880 the, uh, provincial government, the NDP provincial government has done here in the province, including

00:16:40.800 balanced budgets, which, you know, if you'd asked me when they got elected, would there be balanced

00:16:45.920 budgets for the next few years? I would have said absolutely no way that's going to happen. So,

00:16:50.720 so they're, they've maybe learned the lesson from the past and recognize that

00:16:55.440 if they have a hope of staying in power, they, they can't just, you know, do what they did in

00:16:59.200 the nineties and go on wild, wild spending sprees. But yeah, a lot of these central versus decentralized

00:17:07.680 the decisions are ideologically informed. Although I do think in Western Canada, there is just a natural

00:17:12.880 in Western Canada and in Quebec, there is a knee jerk, uh, default position towards decentralization,

00:17:18.160 but in Alberta, it has a very strong ideological strain because as I said, if Alberta is left to

00:17:23.360 its own devices, it will almost always come to a more, uh, conservative outcome than if it has to

00:17:29.280 share power with Ottawa. And Ontario is the center, so it doesn't matter. And then Atlantic Canada-

00:17:34.480 Ontario doesn't care because it controls the federal government anyway.

00:17:36.400 Yeah. And Atlantic Canada, they just, they just, they just want things to go nicely.

00:17:45.280 Yeah. Everyone favors, uh, living at home when your parents are rich.

00:17:49.040 That's right. All right. Uh, so, uh, Fair Deal panel, was there any, um, specific policy

00:17:57.600 items that you think are worth highlighting? Some of the things that kind of stood out?

00:18:00.960 Uh, I mean, the biggest cheers in that crowd, uh, were very clearly for people who stood up and were

00:18:11.520 whole hog sovereignty. That, that got the biggest cheers. That being said, uh, and you know, there

00:18:17.840 were quite a few, I think, independent supporters in that room. That being said, uh, many people who

00:18:23.840 were not yet on that independence train, I think were cheering for them as a way of just expressing

00:18:30.320 frustration. Um, you know, they would not, I wouldn't be, I don't think they'd be, many of

00:18:34.320 those would not be considered solventists right now. Right. But, uh, I'd say the dominant vein

00:18:39.280 of thought in that room, uh, if I was to take the aggregate, if that was possible, the aggregate thought

00:18:45.840 was, uh, the Fair Deal panel better get a fair deal fast. And if Alberta can't get a fair deal, 1.00

00:18:51.840 then those people who are in the federalist reformist camp, uh, have said pretty clearly that

00:18:57.920 they're prepared to support independence. If that rubber ever meets the road, we won't know,

00:19:02.960 but, uh, this will involve Alberta unilaterally doing many of the things that it can without 0.97

00:19:07.680 permission from Ottawa. That is RCMP, uh, withdrawing from the RCMP, withdrawing from the Canada Revenue

00:19:12.480 Agency, withdrawing from the Canada Pension Plan, all, a lot of these things, but it's also going to

00:19:17.360 require Ottawa to reciprocate on Senate reform, on equalization, on market access. And, uh, I mean,

00:19:24.960 maybe we can turn towards that now, but I don't think Ottawa is going to bite.

00:19:28.720 Well, a lot of those things have been talked about for decades, you know, Senate reform is a

00:19:33.440 fantastic example, right? It's been bandied about, I mean, the, the liberals now what they nominally,

00:19:39.840 um, place nonpartisan people in, in, uh, the Senate. And that's, you know, that's considered to be

00:19:47.520 their resolution for the Senate. Um, I, I can't see a world where we have any, uh, a triple E 1.00

00:19:54.400 Senate, if you will, in the classic, um, Preston Manning, um, uh, form, uh, without,

00:20:00.480 without opening up the constitution and all of the chaos that that, that is involved.

00:20:04.480 It would clearly require constitutional reform and no party, even one as bold as say the PPC

00:20:10.880 is not prepared to open the constitution because I mean, if you open the constitution and you look

00:20:15.360 in that little box, you'll see Brian Mulgreens still crying in a corner. It is very dangerous.

00:20:21.280 Yeah. But, uh, I'll, I'll tell you there, all of these solutions we're talking about repealing

00:20:26.960 bills, C48 bill C, uh, 69, uh, equalization rebates, that bullshit term, all of these things,

00:20:36.400 these are bandaid solutions and one-off. They're not going to fix the structural problems in this

00:20:40.560 country unless there is constitutional reform. Yeah. It's necessary, but there is no way in hell

00:20:47.040 we're ever going to get constitutional reform, but I think it's worth trying before we go whole

00:20:52.400 hog sovereignty. So do you think that, um, if they were able to deal with some of the, you know, 1.00

00:20:59.920 quote, low hanging fruit, uh, some of the, you know, some of the bills that you mentioned, uh,

00:21:05.040 you know, perhaps, uh, the Alberta pension plan, some of, you know, the Alberta provincial police versus

00:21:10.720 the RCP, if some of those things were to, uh, take shape, you know, relatively quickly, uh,

00:21:17.280 would that be sufficient? Do you think amongst, amongst the moderate sovereignists, if you will,

00:21:22.960 um, to, to quell them a little bit and, and perhaps, you know, make them a little more patient to

00:21:29.760 maybe a longer process of, uh, constitutional reform? I, I, the problem with the constitution is,

00:21:36.000 you know, Alberta thinks it just needs to go this way. And there's a very strong voices in Canada

00:21:40.720 that think it needs to go exactly the opposite way. And it terrifies me actually to think that

00:21:45.360 we open up the constitution and we end up with something far worse, right? Well, I'd say if we

00:21:49.760 open up the constitution, we get something worse. It'd be very clear that the only option is independence

00:21:53.440 at that time. Well, I suppose. Yeah. Anyway, do you, do you think that there's an appetite in Alberta

00:21:59.440 amongst, uh, amongst, not obviously amongst the hardcore, but amongst, um,

00:22:03.840 the dispossessed, uh, masses, if you will, that, uh, some of these things happen?

00:22:09.200 Yeah. So Jason Kenney has built his provincial political career, building a case against Ottawa,

00:22:15.440 and he built a very good case. And I think a legitimate one, it made a PC leader,

00:22:19.360 it made a UCP leader, and it's made a premium. I think he's a, he's terrified right now though,

00:22:25.440 that this fire that he's been fanning is out of control and it could come back to burn him

00:22:30.400 unless he gets it under control and finds a way to satisfy that fire. And so what, you know,

00:22:36.640 we'll take, for example, the issue around this equalization referendum everybody's heard about,

00:22:41.040 uh, when he ran for UCP leadership, he said, there's going to be a referendum on equalization,

00:22:46.640 period. And, um, uh, in Alberta, and he gave the, he gave the least, he didn't put a date on it,

00:22:56.000 but he gave a very clear impression. This was going to be very soon after a provincial election. We're

00:23:00.240 going to get this done. And he said, um, here's how Ottawa, Ottawa has to meet a number of conditions

00:23:06.800 to avoid this. They have to completely overhaul equalization. We need Trans Mountain built. We

00:23:13.520 need Energy East built. We need, uh, Bill 69, uh, repealed and, uh, or rewritten and Bill C 48

00:23:23.440 repealed or rewritten. Fast forward. And sorry, Derek, can I just interject just for the audience?

00:23:30.240 Uh, can you give us a synopsis? Oh, sorry. Yeah. Those are essentially the anti-pipeline bill and the,

00:23:36.400 uh, tanker ban moratorium bill. So as time went on, I get into the election, started watering things down a

00:23:45.760 bit. Now we're at the point where, uh, the premier has effectively more or less taken equalization off

00:23:54.080 the table and replaced it with what he's dubbed an equalization rebate, the so-called fiscal

00:23:59.120 stabilization, uh, fund, right? This is not an equalization rebate. It's not designed to be one.

00:24:04.880 It has nothing to do with equalization. All provinces are eligible for it. If they get equalization or not,

00:24:10.480 he's talking about reforming that with some retroactive payments. So Alberta sends more than 20

00:24:15.120 billion dollars a year, net more to Ottawa than we get back. Yeah. Thanks for that.

00:24:20.560 Yeah. Pure theory. Well, actually the British Columbia is a, is a net contributor. Oh, I know.

00:24:25.440 Not by a large amount, but it's a net contributor. So, uh, you don't have to thank us. Quebec. No.

00:24:30.000 Yeah. So, um, we send boat, we send trains, we send pipelines of money every year and we're not even

00:24:38.880 going to try and fix that anymore. Now we're just going to settle for one and a half to two and a half

00:24:43.600 billion dollar one time payment from Ottawa to make us go away. There's no talk of energy East anymore.

00:24:50.240 There's no talk of repealing bill C 69 or C 48. They're talking about just being nicer about the

00:24:54.960 application of the regulations around it. All of these conditions have been dropped. Uh,

00:24:59.840 equalization has just been replaced with this rebate business and, uh, TMX I think is actually going to get

00:25:07.200 built. So I said, using my crystal ball here, what I fear is happening is he is moving the goalposts

00:25:15.360 back because he knows there's just no way Ottawa is ever, even under the Tories, there was no way we

00:25:20.000 were going to get any of these. Most of these things we would repeal the two, uh, anti pipeline and tanker

00:25:24.480 bills, but that would be it. Yeah. So he's moving the goalposts so that he'll be able to say,

00:25:30.480 uh, I won on equalization. No, he won't. He will have gotten a one time cash payout. Sure. Um,

00:25:38.160 and then we'll got TMX, but no energy East, no anything else. Right. And there'll be no more

00:25:44.080 pipelines ever built again under current legislation in Canada. So he wants to, I think, be able to

00:25:48.960 declare victory. Say I stood up to Ottawa and I got us a fair deal. It's not perfect. It's not

00:25:52.880 everything we want, but it's good enough. And then he's hoping that that will calm people down

00:25:57.840 among hardcore partisans who tend to believe anything their party says probably will. Right.

00:26:03.680 But I don't think it's going to put enough of a wet blanket on the fire that he has been

00:26:10.320 fanning for three years straight. Do you think that there, there's a case to be made about

00:26:15.360 incrementalism? You know, I mean, he is a, he is a Harper, um, you know, a prodigy. Right. And so,

00:26:24.560 uh, you know, Harper was always big on incremental, you know, we make some small changes and this is

00:26:30.160 the beginning, you know, reelect me, continue to, you know, um, put me in and I'll continue to make

00:26:35.760 those incremental changes. Um, or do you think there's just hard stops on some of those things?

00:26:40.160 Well, with all respect to Harper, his incrementalism failed miserably.

00:26:45.200 He had a decade in power. We ran the biggest deficits in the history of the country so we

00:26:50.400 could maintain the confidence in a minority parliament in this incrementalism. Uh, we ended

00:26:54.480 up owning some bloody car companies costing us a boatload of money. Um, we ended up with a smaller

00:27:01.280 military than we did when he took power. Um, and, uh, and he was still according to the left, by the way,

00:27:09.920 you know, the most extreme right wing. Yeah. Yeah. He's still portrayed as Genghis Khan. He does all

00:27:15.360 of these things. I couldn't vote for him by, by his last election because I, I only ever voted for

00:27:22.720 Stephen Harper because I believed there was a hidden agenda. There was no hidden agenda. And as soon as

00:27:28.400 I figured that out, I said, I'm out. I can't vote for this shit anymore. It's, it's interesting though, 1.00

00:27:32.720 right? Because you and I had huge amounts of trouble with, with Harper in the, in the end because,

00:27:39.840 you know, because he wasn't being conservative enough. Yet there was still these extremely loud

00:27:45.440 voices in Canada that, um, you know, he was just, he was just the most awful right wing.

00:27:50.960 They'll do that. They did it against Scheer. So frustrating.

00:27:53.760 Yeah. Who's owned by the dairy lobby and who campaigned on keeping the CBC and equalization,

00:27:58.960 all these things. They'll say that no matter what. So you may as well actually just stand by your

00:28:02.320 principles from time to time, but no Harper's incrementalism approach didn't get very much done

00:28:08.000 in office. In fact, we went backwards on many issues. Sure. Uh, we went incrementally in the

00:28:12.000 wrong direction. And then the few things we did get, we're done done in the first six months of

00:28:16.480 the Trudeau government anyway. So we got nothing right at the entire thing. So isn't it different

00:28:22.640 in Alberta though? Because, because Alberta is historically very, very rarely, uh, voted for anything

00:28:29.840 other than the conservative in name only perhaps, but conservative option on the, on the ballot.

00:28:35.040 And, and so there's a lower risk around the incrementalism.

00:28:39.360 Uh, well, provincially, I mean, they're making some pretty bold changes in, I think a positive

00:28:45.360 direction, at least in some cases and in other cases, they're, they're pretty tepid. Uh, but when

00:28:49.840 it comes to the Alberta or the Western question about Alberta getting a fair deal on Saskatchewan,

00:28:54.480 getting a fair deal, I don't think incrementalism is really the way to go. I think you've got the

00:29:00.320 energy right now. You've got public support for it. I think it's very clear that we need to put

00:29:09.120 forward a whole package of reforms, of constitutional reforms. So forget this equalization referendum

00:29:15.840 two years from now, let's hold a referendum in six months from now on a whole package of

00:29:19.680 constitutional demands for Senate reform, for market access, for, uh, outlawing equalization,

00:29:26.160 these things. And we send it to Ottawa and the other provinces. And if we can get that deal,

00:29:31.120 then frankly, I mean, even those who are supportive of independence, most of them will

00:29:36.800 acknowledge that we could probably live with this, even if it's not great, even if we're outvoted off and

00:29:41.120 we should be protected enough within a federation. But if, as I would expect, uh, Ottawa rejects it,

00:29:47.440 Quebec rejects it. And then I think Alberta would be wise then to hold a second vote on independence.

00:29:54.080 And at that time, I think, uh, people will be off the fence about believing reform is possible,

00:30:00.160 which is why I, I, which is all comes down to why I don't think, uh, Jason Kenney's equalization

00:30:05.440 referendum is ever going to get help. Cause we're going to hold, if we hold that referendum,

00:30:09.440 we're going to vote, vote 80 to 85% for it. We're going to send it to Ottawa almost unanimously.

00:30:15.040 And Ottawa is going to tell us to pound sand. And then Albertans are going to be left with two

00:30:20.880 options. And Jason Kenney does not like those two options, surrendering or independence. Right.

00:30:25.920 He wants to be somewhere in between that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Hmm. Wow. Quite the dynamics.

00:30:31.680 And, uh, of course, Jason Kenney, uh, went to Ottawa, had a nice sit down meeting with our illustrious

00:30:39.360 prime minister, Justin Trudeau, um, who, you know, is just making us look remarkable on the world stage.

00:30:46.000 Um, we should all be proud. Justin Trudeau's, um, legacy in Canada. I'm, I'm kidding, by the way,

00:30:53.440 if you're, that's the concern he looked on your face. He has left a black mark.

00:30:57.200 Oh, oh, wow.

00:31:01.680 Um, so we'll talk about the prime minister another time because, uh, uh, it's going to be very hard to

00:31:07.520 play devil's advocate in that one. Uh, but yeah, so, um, so sat down with, with, uh, nothing in

00:31:14.800 particular, lots of platitudes, um, you know, friendly handshakes, uh, you know, is this going

00:31:21.040 anywhere? What are, what are your thoughts? Uh, well, it was pretty different. Uh, uh, Rick Bell's

00:31:27.520 column in the Calgary sun today, uh, opened with, and I saw Rick Bell at the fair deal panel last night.

00:31:32.960 He, he was kind of beside himself. He can't believe that he thinks this is a different Jason than,

00:31:37.280 uh, than he knows. And, um, you know, it's a long way from, uh, Jason Kenney comparing,

00:31:43.760 uh, Trudeau to the intellectual depth of a finger bowl to what he said yesterday, which is, uh, I think

00:31:52.240 that they just, I forget the exact word, but it was essentially, it was cordial and they had a

00:31:56.160 conversation and the prime minister said, he's listening. You know, it wasn't that, you know,

00:32:00.400 Rachel Notley fawning like a fangirl over him. I mean, it was nothing, nothing so disgusting as that.

00:32:06.080 Right. But it was, uh, a very different change of tone. And, uh, and I think feeds very much into

00:32:14.880 what I've been arguing here, which is that Jason Kenney is trying to move the goal posts,

00:32:22.320 make us drop some of these demands that he's been talking about for three years and, uh, try to bring

00:32:29.680 the temperature down because it is, it is so hot right now, at least in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

00:32:36.000 And if he can't get these things that he's been talking about, and he, I think he must know in

00:32:41.920 his heart, there's no way to get, there's no way to get nine tenths of them. And, uh, and so he,

00:32:47.040 so he's got to manage expectations downwards right now. And that means, uh, if not being warm with the

00:32:54.480 federal government, at least being cordial and cooperative rather than confrontation.

00:32:58.560 And push back a little bit on that. I mean, isn't that, isn't that kind of, I mean, you can't,

00:33:03.200 you can't go into a meeting, um, diplomatically with, with the prime minister and, you know, 0.88

00:33:09.120 have the knife ready to stab into his back. You have to, you have to come with, with some, um,

00:33:16.160 you know, some, I don't know what the word diplomacy, right? It's probably the best word.

00:33:20.720 Scott Moe did a couple of weeks ago. He went in and met with Trudeau and came out and said,

00:33:25.360 the guy has got no idea. Uh, he doesn't understand where we are. Um, that's not to say premier Moe was

00:33:30.800 right and Kenny was wrong or vice versa. Uh, I, I think. I just, I just wonder, you know, um,

00:33:38.320 you know, you're going to get anywhere, right? I mean, I mean, if you want to, if you want to play ball,

00:33:42.800 you have to at least be cordial. And I, I agree with you. I don't think, I don't think fawning

00:33:46.720 over him or making unnecessary compliments is the way to go either, but at least, at least be, um,

00:33:52.800 kind to their face. I know. I, I, I agree. I mean, if, I mean, when, I mean, Reagan would meet Gorbachev

00:33:59.680 and, and, and I mean, they've got nukes pointed at each other, but they would still be reasonable,

00:34:04.960 diplomatic and, and treat each other as men and equals. And I would expect the premier of Alberta,

00:34:11.360 regardless of our feelings or his feelings about Trudeau to do the same. We, I, I think that's

00:34:16.800 fine. We don't expect him to go in and, uh, you know, flip the couch over and scream. That's not

00:34:22.240 very productive. Or wash his feet, you know, or the, or somewhere, you know, it's going to be

00:34:26.000 somewhere in between, right? Yeah. But, um, but the language was radically different from even

00:34:31.840 previous meetings that he's had with, uh, Justin Trudeau. And I think this is about trying to lower the

00:34:36.880 temperature and, uh, manage expectations downwards because there is no way that, uh, as much as he

00:34:45.680 might try, there is no way that, uh, we are going to get the vast majority of the things that JC

00:34:52.000 campaign, uh, Kenny campaigned on getting from Ottawa. So, so if you're, we talked to already

00:34:57.040 about managing expectations downward and I, I, I can see, I think you're right. I think that's,

00:35:02.080 I think that's just the real politic of it. Right. But, uh, lowering the temperature,

00:35:07.040 I think it's actually probably really sensible. Uh, you know, if you want to get things done and

00:35:12.000 you have to, you have to lower the temperature a little bit and then get into the meat of it.

00:35:15.520 Right. Depends what you're trying to get done. If you're trying to get a couple of small victories

00:35:20.240 and not let this independence movement get out of control, then that is exactly what you want to do.

00:35:25.360 Right. But you know, if you're a bit spicier and you, uh, you want 1.00

00:35:31.920 wholesale reform, the kind of reform that Jason Kenney campaigned on getting, then that temperature

00:35:37.120 needs to be hot. But he, he, he's a smart politician and he recognizes he's not going to be able to get

00:35:42.560 those. Exactly. Yeah. And it's style, right? And I think it's style and it comes back to that

00:35:47.360 incrementalist approach. You know, Jason Kenney is, you know, is not, is not Derek Fildebrand.

00:35:53.600 He's, uh, he's got his, he's, he's got his style and, and, um, uh, I think, I think he's being fairly

00:36:00.080 pragmatic about it. Um, you know, I don't, uh, I don't know how much he really, like you said,

00:36:05.840 I don't know how much realistically he can get done from his agenda. And I think he's smart guy.

00:36:10.320 He knows the same thing. Right. And so, so, you know, lowering the temperature, having constructive

00:36:15.520 talks, maybe ticking a couple of boxes. Um, you know, as, as politics goes, uh, probably a pretty

00:36:21.520 sensible approach at this point. If, if there is something Jason Kenney knows, it's politics and it's,

00:36:27.600 it's this dealing and, uh, you know, the whole, the whole God awful mess of politics. He's,

00:36:33.840 he's very good at that kind of maneuvering. Um, but it is, it is a question that I, I can't tell

00:36:41.520 you for sure if it will be enough. Can he manage those expectations downwards? Because if he can't

00:36:48.000 manage those expectations downwards and people still expect him to deliver what he promised to deliver,

00:36:53.280 um, he then finds himself in a very dangerous situation politically. If this independence

00:37:00.160 movement in Alberta ever got out of, uh, out of the Legion basement and got into, uh, got,

00:37:05.680 got organized in any serious way, which it is not yet. Well, on that note, I think we can wrap up

00:37:11.600 this, uh, official first, the, uh, the pipeline, our weekly national affairs program, Derek Fildebrand,

00:37:18.000 publisher of the Western standard from Calgary. Thank you so much. And, uh, I'm Paul Holmes,

00:37:24.560 the digital editor at the Western standard, uh, coming to you from Victoria, British Columbia,

00:37:29.040 and we will see you next week.

Western Standard - December 12, 2019

The Pipeline - Episode 1 - Kenney Goes to Ottawa

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