On this episode of Triggered, host Corey Morgan kicks off the new week with a special guest, Bacchus Berua from the Fraser Institute. They talk about Canada's crumbling health care system and how we can fix it. They also talk about International Cat Day and why you should be thankful for your cat.
00:00:30.000Good morning. It's Monday, August 8th, 2022. Welcome to Triggered. I'm Corey Morgan. Yes,
00:00:42.340we're beginning another week. I think these weeks get kind of, the work week gets a little
00:00:46.060longer as the summer goes on. You know, you're just enjoying those weekends so much in the good
00:00:50.080weather. It's hard to get back into your seat for that other five days, but we're kicking off
00:00:54.380another week. We'll get through it. We'll survive and we'll bitch about it. That's part of the fun
00:00:59.680of having live shows and the ability to speak up. So it's good to see you guys in the comment
00:01:04.620scroll. I got a DS from Toronto and others. This being a live show, I like to remind everybody,
00:01:11.820use those comments, guys. Let's get back and forth. Let's be interactive. That's what it's
00:01:15.740about. Send questions my way, have discussions with each other, send questions for my guests.
00:01:20.340I won't necessarily read them all out loud, you know, or pass them on to the guests, but I do see
00:01:25.160them all and it makes it worth doing these live productions versus canned recorded ones which
00:01:30.660there are so many out there already so uh again though i always got to remind you i've seen some
00:01:34.960pretty big scraps break out now and then just keep it somewhat civil we can get upset but we don't
00:01:39.540have to be terribly rude there's good polite ways to be rude if that sounds odd it is possible
00:01:45.260all right a couple of daily observances to get through and let's see what's going on here it is
00:01:50.180this one's I like, and I understand this so well. It's sneak some zucchini onto your neighbor's
00:01:55.300porch night. And this sounds absurd, but if you've ever done gardening, you'll understand there's
00:02:01.560something that happens with zucchini. I'm a terrible gardener. I mean, every few years,
00:02:04.540Jane and I try, we plant some stuff. We get some stuff. One thing though, you wash the zucchini and
00:02:09.380it gets bigger and bigger. It eats up half of your garden with these giant leaves, but still doesn't
00:02:12.720seem like much is coming along. And then all of a sudden, one day you lift the leaves and you got
00:02:16.160all these giant bloody zucchinis everywhere. I mean, these things are just huge. You can only
00:02:19.820eat so much zucchini and it only keeps so well. So you take a bag, you bag it up, you sneak out in
00:02:24.880the night, you dump it on your neighbor's doorstep. Don't want to waste it, right? Hey, it's a nice
00:02:29.660neighborly thing to do. And well, if somebody's creeping around, you know, leaving something on
00:02:33.860your doorstep, you could do worse than a bag of zucchini. So if you've got a spare zucchini,
00:02:38.500this is the time to go out, choose carefully on your porches. I live in a rural area now. I think
00:02:42.460it might not be good sneaking around on people's porches at night. I could get myself in trouble,
00:02:46.740but all the same, this is the time to get rid of your spare zucchini. All right, it's also
00:02:50.440International Cat Day, so I don't know what you do to observe this one, because you know your cat
00:02:56.720really doesn't care, but all the same, observe your cat, appreciate your cat, pet your cat.
00:03:03.200We got Makachuk and his semi-famous cat that makes its appearances when I interview him,
00:03:08.160or he's even used for some of his basis for choosing candidates and leadership debates.
00:03:15.380Today's the day to celebrate those cats, though. Those of you who do love cats, this is the day for it. I don't know. Buy it some extra catnip and watch it bounce off the walls a little.
00:03:23.980Okay, getting on to the guest today. I got Bacchus Berua. He's from the Fraser Institute. He's their healthcare chair, I guess, or whatnot in there.
00:03:35.100He's written a lot of articles and studies about it. We're seeing so much in the news right now with health centers closing, hospitals reducing hours.
00:03:42.100I mean, it's crazy. We don't, we don't, we don't manage to just get injured and sick in nine to
00:03:47.140five hours, but our health facilities can't keep up with the realities and it's across the country.
00:03:51.260So we'll discuss healthcare reform and some of those things, what could be done if we ever find
00:03:55.600the will to do it. And Franco Teresano is going to pop on. They wrote a column, him and Chris Sims
00:04:01.080did with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, talking about how Pierre Paulyev or I guess any
00:04:05.160conservative leader could really do a lot of good with direct democracy. And I'm talking about
00:04:09.960citizens initiated referenda and of course recall there's always a lot of talk about it but very
00:04:15.060rarely when we'll actually get functional uh legislation for those things so we'll talk a bit
00:04:20.420about that see if maybe we can coax those candidates to embrace some of that stuff for real
00:04:24.900and uh yeah susan's saying the only time rural folk lock their doors so they don't get a backseat
00:04:30.120full of zucchinis yeah those those things i mean they tell you they're like an invasive weed
00:04:34.040and i mean i like zucchini but there's limits somebody else says zucchini bread yeah that's
00:04:38.200good, but you can still only eat and preserve so much. All right, let's see what's got me going.
00:04:43.700I want to talk about an Alberta provincial police force. So, I mean, last week I interviewed Kevin
00:04:48.160Halwa of the National Police Federation on their initiative opposing the formation of a provincial
00:04:52.420police force in Alberta. He made some good points, but for the most part, I felt they were pretty
00:04:56.560weak. I mean, he is with a police union and it's focused on the interest of the union rather than
00:05:01.180the public. And I don't fault them for that. That's just what their job is and that's what
00:05:03.840they're about, but it does make me question their motivations. Although I did point out some reports
00:05:08.820claiming, you know, the formation of a provincial police force would come at a high cost. And
00:05:12.440this is true. I mean, everything from new branding to training facilities, to cars, to
00:05:17.860office facilities, I mean, it all has to be created or transferred and it's going to cost
00:05:21.880a lot of money. That cost will be worth it though. I mean, to begin with, the RCMP don't come free to
00:05:28.040the province. They're not some kind of gift, you know, from Ottawa. They're a contracted force
00:05:32.460and Alberta taxpayers have to pay for it.
00:12:51.080We're just spreading across this country to give you good, independent news coverage.
00:12:55.600And the reason we're doing it, guys, is because of you, because you've been subscribing.
00:12:59.900That's how we bypass government control.
00:13:01.940That's how we don't deal with tax-funded media that has to dance to the tune of the federal government is through paying for our media directly.
00:14:07.360We won't dedicate a nickel towards them.
00:14:08.900If the feds want to send them here, they can, but on their dime.
00:14:11.260And I know it still comes out of our pocket in the end anyways, but it would be a much, much smaller presence with a much, much more limited mandate and area that they're going into.
00:18:33.240But, you know, of course, they only report on the scary stuff, not on the positive stuff.
00:18:37.960So reefs are sensitive, absolutely, you know, and there's things to do to try and preserve them.
00:18:44.280But they're obviously not nearly as much at risk as, of course, the climate alarmists like us to be.
00:18:52.480And that's what I get sick of, the fear, fear, fear.
00:18:54.700You know, CTV, speaking of legacy media, if we're going to talk, you know, and pat our own backs here at the Western Standard and the independent abilities we have.
00:19:03.240CTV, man, they've just gone brutally bad.
00:19:06.880I mean, I still tune into them on the weekends and the evenings just to see what's up on the headlines.
00:19:11.780Eventually, we'll get big enough that maybe I'll have the Western Standard Channel on my regular TV and I'll be able to watch that at night.
00:19:18.420But they are just right up there with the CBC, with their alarmism, fear, fear, fear, everything, COVID, monkeypox, global warming, you name it.
00:19:33.240We won't do that. We're just going to report on facts. So I'd like to remind everybody. So the next time you hear somebody saying the reefs are all going away, actually, no, no, they aren't. Yet another alarmist prediction that didn't happen. Al Gore gets a Nobel Peace Prize for lying, saying our polar bears are all going to be drowning by now. Well, aside from that, you know, we've also got the coral reefs are not all vanishing on us, contrary to what some people would claim.
00:20:28.000when it talks about media, because you are always accountable to who pay yours to your bills. You
00:20:33.380know, you dance with the one who brung you to a degree. So as long as we're independent, we have
00:20:38.160to answer to you. Maybe we'll have ups and downs. Maybe we'll piss off our subscribers and lose
00:20:41.600some subscribers at some point. So far, it's been a good growth. We're obviously providing what
00:20:45.520people are looking for. But if we stop providing that, our ratings will sink. We'll have to
00:20:51.200contract, and we'll figure out where to go from there and improve it. When it is, yeah, Jay was
00:20:58.080saying, no, Justin paid for it. I mean, yeah, I know, yeah, kind of what you're getting there.
00:21:01.720And so, I mean, it allows that proper evolution of what you guys want to see is what we're going
00:21:07.860to learn to provide, or we'll get, you know, off to the wayside because we won't be able to sustain.
00:21:13.720But it's artificially rigged. And this happens with every business when it gets subsidized.
00:21:17.680It no longer reflects the needs of the market. It reflects what the government wants. And the
00:21:23.240government's interests are rarely the same as our interests, unfortunately. So we get left by the
00:21:29.940wayside. And with media, it gets very scary because, I mean, again, we've got to get our
00:21:34.880information from somewhere. Not everybody's out on the streets to find out what's happening in
00:21:39.260person and firsthand. And it's got to spread out. So, I mean, we've got a good trend though.
00:21:46.780We know that's why the government's terrified. It is working well right now because, you know,
00:21:52.820we got independent outlets like us or Rebel or Epoch Times or True North. I mean, they're out
00:21:57.780there and we're getting the news to people despite what the government thinks. But then we see the
00:22:02.720government response is Bill C-11, C-18, they want to control information. But the fact that they're
00:22:08.840trying so hard as well lets us know we're over the target, guys. The government's scared. They
00:22:14.740can't control things. So they're trying to find new ways to do it. But we'll keep finding new
00:22:18.360ways to get to you. And independent media is going to be the way we're going to do it.
00:22:23.180So here's a beauty that shows the attitude of government, the attitude of the world these days,
00:22:28.520hero medallion for everyone. This sounds like a joke story almost, right? Like,
00:22:33.360so yeah, the public health agency, you know, who screwed up so many things
00:22:39.680with COVID mismanagement, and they're giving the pandemic hero medallion to every single employee.
00:22:46.760Look at that, guys. You get a ribbon for participation. You're a hero. Good for you.
00:22:52.900Come on. These are tax dollars at work. These guys are incompetent. Our civil service,
00:22:58.540this is an area where we are in grave, grave trouble as a country, and we need to reform it.
00:23:08.180And that's something that's also came out in the news recently is that the civil services is a lot of the workers aren't coming back to work, which shouldn't be such a shocker, I guess, in some ways.
00:23:27.440I mean, passport renewals, you name it, all these different services are in the toilet.
00:23:31.880But a lot of the area that it seems that which is leading to this problem right now is that a lot of these civil servants aren't eager to come back and do the job in the first place.
00:23:42.580So, OK, I've been talking a little over time.
00:23:44.720I see my guest is in the lobby there and let's bring him in and have a conversation.
00:23:48.500We'll pivot back into some healthcare talk, because I've been kind of rambling on the
00:24:17.700So you made it. Let's talk together. So, I mean, as I kind of said earlier in the show, I mean, we're seeing it right now. It's headlines across the country. Our health care resources just seem to be incapable of keeping up. We've got in Calgary, an urgent care center that's been reducing its hours. One in, you know, north of the city that's shut down for weekends. I believe in the East Coast, we're seeing again, hospitals and such that just don't have the staff or the ability to keep up.
00:24:45.480But still, we aren't hearing discussion on the system.
00:24:51.200You know, we're in a very, very difficult situation right now.
00:24:53.800As you said, you know, there are years closing across the country.
00:24:57.540We have many, you know, physicians who are leaving the system.
00:25:02.820There are situations where nurses are burnt out.
00:25:05.220And, of course, none of it is really their fault.
00:25:07.400They've had an incredibly difficult two years.
00:25:10.340But it is a tough situation right now that should not be taken lightly.
00:25:16.020It's probably, you know, the first reaction would be to kind of put all of the blame or the onus on COVID-19.
00:25:22.340And certainly COVID has pushed the system to its limits and exacerbated a lot of the problems.
00:25:27.400But to really understand what's going on, we actually need to roll back the clock a little bit to 2019 before COVID was there.
00:25:33.900Because then we can start to disentangle what's due to COVID and what's actually due to our system.
00:25:39.460And one of the things that we can do is look at one of our studies, actually quite a few of our studies in 2019 that look at data for Canada compared to other countries in the OECD, specifically countries with universal health care.
00:25:52.580And what we find is that Canada for the longest time is routinely ranked amongst the top spenders, but we aren't seeing value coming out of that spending, at least not to a commensurate level.
00:26:04.220We routinely rank either second highest as a percentage of GDP after adjusting for age
00:26:10.460or eighth highest in terms of per capita.
00:26:13.780Again, that's out of 28 universal health care systems, so really amongst the top.
00:26:18.260But when we look at the numbers for physicians, we were right at the bottom.
00:26:21.740We were ranked 26 out of 28 for physicians.
00:26:24.200We were ranked 14th out of 28 for nurses, and we were ranked 25th out of 26 for beds.
00:26:28.940So even in 2019, this is the picture of the system that was already pushed to the limits
00:26:34.480and we experienced those limits during COVID-19 and it seems like we're starting to fall off
00:26:42.200Yeah, it's unfortunate that, yeah, you know, COVID's kind of exacerbated a problem we already
00:26:47.040knew we had, or at least those of us watching the system knew.
00:26:50.680But I mean, so if we're going to look at systemic reform, hopefully some people are ready to
00:26:54.000start, you know, at least poking into it because we turned it into a bit of a sacred cow and
00:26:57.620people don't discuss it but we've got to accept that there's got to be some changes but that
00:27:01.540key word that a lot of people miss is universal i mean that that's the value everybody wants i
00:27:06.580believe in canada they don't want to move away from that they're fearful that we can move into
00:27:10.500a system where they wouldn't be covered any longer but that's not what anybody's proposing at any point
00:27:15.780no and you know one of the things we've done very purposefully in our report is only looking at
00:27:20.180countries with universal healthcare and i think uh it's it's a little uh it's a little sad that
00:27:25.380that the discussion in both canada and the united states tends to focus on each other a lot of the
00:27:30.180time uh you know the united states loves to you know well i'm not saying the united states in
00:27:34.340general but a lot of a lot of defenders of their system seem to uh you know want to reel against
00:27:39.540canada's wait times very specifically and say well that's how all universal healthcare systems look
00:27:43.620and in canada you say he looks out of the board and say oh you know we don't want to import the
00:27:47.300problems that we see in the united states and really we're just putting blinders on ourselves
00:27:51.140I mean, there are countries like Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, France, all of these
00:27:55.780countries have universal healthcare. They're spending about the same as we do, but they have
00:27:59.220remarkably more doctors, they have more nurses, they have more beds. And of course, all of them
00:28:04.500had the same struggles with COVID-19, maybe to some varying degree, but they were starting at
00:28:09.220a very different baseline. I have some interesting numbers when we're looking at wait times for
00:28:14.660elective surgery. This is from the Commonwealth Fund, and it reported that in 2020, 62% of
00:28:20.980canadians were able to get surgery within four months for elective surgery by contrast in
00:28:26.020switzerland 94 percent of patients were able to get treatment within that time frame and in germany
00:28:32.02099 and before even then you know 2020 is again getting into covertary territory but if you look
00:28:38.180at 2016 the numbers were basically almost the same in fact in 2016 zero percent of german patients
00:28:43.620were waiting uh longer than than four weeks um for elective surgery so so these are all countries
00:28:48.740with universal healthcare that don't seem to have the long wait times that we do and in some cases
00:28:54.900are actually spending the same or lower than canada is so the key really is is not about
00:29:00.180spending which is unfortunately what a lot of the not a lot well all the current premiers are
00:29:05.860advocating for with their increased um chd transfers but it's really about what is happening
00:29:10.980to this spending why aren't why is it not translating into more doctors why is it not
00:29:14.980translating into shorter wait times and what can we change in our policies and what's stopping
00:29:20.980us from changing those policies right now yeah well i imagine the answer to the question of
00:29:25.620what's stopping us is the canada health act it needs some changes to allow the flexibility to
00:29:30.100make some policy changes but let's say assuming you know the the government's receptive to opening
00:29:35.460the act uh and changing some of these things what sort of changes could we implement then that that
00:29:40.420would help us move more towards those sorts of outcomes like germany you know in a universal
00:29:44.020system? Well, when we look at the basket of countries that generally perform better than
00:29:49.760Canada, there are three things that they do very differently. The first is their general attitude
00:29:55.180towards the private sector, and that is looking at the private sector as a tool, either as a partner
00:30:01.360to deliver on the universal healthcare promise or as a pressure valve to kind of serve as a way out
00:30:08.240once the public system is overburdened. The second thing that they do differently is that they
00:30:12.400generally expect patients to share in the cost of treatment now this is you know something like
00:30:17.440maybe a three to four hundred dollar deductible it could be ten percent of the cost of treatment
00:30:22.480of course they understand that they need to be limits so that there's never a financial burden
00:30:26.000so there's an annual cap on payments there are exemptions for vulnerable populations and the
00:30:31.120third thing that they do differently is they fund their hospitals based on activity and what that
00:30:34.960does is that ensures that money is actually following the patients with the system in Canada
00:30:39.680because we have this sort of you know for lack of a better word a government monopoly over the
00:30:43.760financing and delivery of care um we have these global budgets which the incentive structure is
00:30:49.600such that patients are treated as a cost to the system because every time a patient comes in
00:30:53.920they're eating into that budget contrast that with activity-based funding and money is following the
00:30:58.400patients the problem is that you know you can't implement any one of these and expect um healthcare
00:31:04.400to be magically fixed it's probably a palette of these options because each of them temper each
00:31:08.720other. The cost-sharing sort of tempers demand, the activity-based funding ensures that supply
00:31:13.200is reacting dynamically. But the thing is right now we're in such a risk-averse environment
00:31:18.400because of the Canada Health Act that you know if provinces even try to do something you know
00:31:24.560the federal government usually is coming down and clamping on them and saying hey you're violating
00:31:29.600the act or you may violate the act and we're going to penalize you for it. And that's very unfortunate
00:31:34.080because one of the most successful experiments was in Saskatchewan with the Saskatchewan
00:31:39.520Surgery Initiative where they partnered with private clinics to deliver third-party
00:31:44.960day surgeries within the public system. They also had a pooled patient referral system where
00:31:50.880you know patients go into a central pool and they're referred to the physician with the shortest
00:31:55.280wait time and they had a number of other changes and that actually resulted in Saskatchewan going
00:31:59.680from a province with one of the longest wait times to one of the shortest by 2014 or 15.
00:32:04.720But ultimately it started to, their wait times started to go up again after that because they
00:32:09.920couldn't do any more reforms because governments, the federal government started to say, hey if you
00:32:14.160try anything now we're going to actually penalize you by building the Canada Health Bank. That's
00:32:20.000not the sort of incentive structure that you want. You want provinces to try the best that they can
00:32:25.840to experiment with different policies to try and see what they can do, because they really have
00:32:30.320the interests of their residents at heart. So, you know, don't stop them, encourage them to try
00:32:35.520things that will result in better or quicker treatment. Yeah, well, it's unfortunate the way
00:32:41.360our country's kind of laid out, I guess, with jurisdiction, the federal government is the
00:32:46.400regulator with the Canada Health Act, they sort of impose the rules, but then they dump it on
00:32:50.240the provinces, okay, but it's up to you guys to deal with everything else, you've got to deliver
00:32:54.000it you've got to set up the infrastructure you've got to recruit the staff and it's just sort of a
00:33:00.000catch-22 as it sits there each can kind of deny responsibility i mean likewise a province can
00:33:04.880also say well it's not my fault it's the the health act and the federal government say well
00:33:08.960it's not our problem it's the province but of course it's the consumers always lose in the end
00:33:13.520you're right you know i mean there's actually a lot that provinces can do within the confines
00:33:17.440of the cha as well some of the things like activity-based funding it says no problem
00:33:21.360And there are provincial legislations that actually sometimes go far beyond the Canada Health Act.
00:33:27.340But I would go back to it because the thing is, ultimately, the Canada Health Act is so vague that it can be interpreted by the federal government of the day to be contributing any aspect of it, particularly with the section about reasonable access.
00:33:39.560So it's just, you know, you don't want a risk averse environment when you're talking about policy.
00:33:44.120You want a policy where you say, look, what we care about is the patient and the system comes secondary.
00:33:49.800Unfortunately, we're in a situation where the system is given priority and the patients come secondary.
00:33:56.260So, I mean, you know, I know this gets you work more into the policy and the alternatives.
00:34:00.780But I mean, I believe, you know, politicians are typically driven by demand from the people they want to get reelected.
00:34:06.360I mean, if we could see more public will, people saying, hey, we want to see some systematic reform, the politicians are going to act on it.
00:34:13.420But that's a really, there's some really entrenched mythologies, I guess, about our current system and a few things that have to be chipped away at before enough people are ready to say, yeah, let's try some different stuff out.
00:34:24.800Yeah, you know, I'm not a political funder at all.
00:34:27.460And, you know, I often am reminded of those New Yorker cartoons where politicians are leading from behind and saying, hey, you know, I see where the crowd's going and let me please lead you there now.
00:34:38.260But I do think that there is a lot of reform coming from the ground up.
00:34:42.160Because the thing is, at the fundamental point, once Canadians have information, once they understand that there are other ways to do it, once they understand what's happening with the system, they start to demand change.
00:34:53.500And you see this happening in a variety of different ways.
00:34:55.600You see it happening, you know, with things like the Camby court case in British Columbia,
00:35:00.160where Dr. Brian Deo, the former head of the Canadian Medical Association,
00:35:04.880is fighting alongside a number of patients to simply get the right to treat them within his
00:35:11.600hospital. And you see it, you've seen it already in Quebec with the 2005 Chevrolet decision. And
00:35:18.560And then you also see it happening at a real, you know, just a normal reactionary level with, you know, Canadians starting to look towards things like virtual care and video appointments, which in many ways really circumvents the entire restrictions of the CHE.
00:35:36.400And you're starting to see, I would say, a lot of defenders of the status quo now starting to clamp down on virtual care and private care, which really had been quite a lot, a huge help during COVID-19.
00:35:51.740But the thing is, I think that that will be a futile fight because the thing is, you can perhaps try and clamp down on these appointments within a doctor and a patient within Canada.
00:36:02.100But there's nothing that's going to stop a patient in Canada trying to get an appointment with a doctor in South Africa, if that's the only way that they're going to get that consultation, unless you build, you know, some sort of a firewall, which would be an entirely different story.
00:36:15.240So, yes, I'm a firm believer in Canadians and their ability to embrace and process information and demand change, because, you know, fundamentally, this is about their healthcare and they are the peers for it.
00:36:27.360Well, that's it. When times get tough enough, well, people suddenly can become more receptive
00:36:32.320to changing anyways. It's unfortunate that it has to go down before it can come up. But
00:36:36.080when you realize you can't get yourself a physician or can't get treatment in a timely manner and,
00:36:41.700you know, you can start looking at things and realize, well, it's not for lack of expenditure.
00:36:45.560I mean, you know, Canadians aren't fools. They'll start pressuring the right way, hopefully. So I
00:36:49.300guess more conversations we can have and showing people like there's, again, it's not that polarized
00:36:53.740thing. There's much more than a Canadian American world out there.
00:36:57.340We could start getting our policymakers examining some more innovative options
00:50:07.720Now, the reason that it was addressed mostly focusing on Polyev is just because that's
00:50:12.660essentially what he said that his campaign is focused around.
00:50:15.600Now, we'll get to that in a second. But Corey, let me just provide a little background. I'm sure most of your watchers and listeners understand what recall and referendum legislation is. But let me just really drive the point home. So recall legislation, it allows people to start a petition if they're angry at a politician. And if they get enough petition signatures, then they can force a by-election to boot that politician in between elections.
00:50:41.940Now, referendum laws, which is typically known as citizens initiative, is very similar. Essentially, if you want to propose a piece of legislation or you want to axe a piece of bad legislation, then you can start a petition drive.
00:50:56.840If you collect enough petitions, then you can force that legislation to be voted on in a referendum across a province, across a city or, of course, across a nation, which is what we're hoping that the next conservative leadership hopeful will bring in if they're elected prime minister is a national recall and referendum legislation that we've been pushing for for like 30 years.
00:51:21.380Yeah, I mean, with those referendums or those legislations as well, I mean, another part of the puzzle, too, though, is to make sure that they bring ones in that are workable.
00:51:30.000You know, that was one of my big disappointments with Premier Kenney, is he promised it.
00:58:22.680I mean, we have seen the carbon tax go up three times during the pandemic.
00:58:26.780We saw the carbon tax go up again April 1st of this year while inflation was already sky high.
00:58:32.040I think there's a case to be made that someone could have launched a citizens initiated referendum to stop those carbon tax hikes.
00:58:40.580At least now we would have been able to put pressure on the government about their carbon tax.
00:58:44.820Because remember, Corey, these politicians have not been honest with us at election time about carbon taxes.
00:58:50.980Remember, before the 2019 election, you had then Environment Minister Catherine McKenna tell voters that the government had no intention to keep raising the carbon tax beyond 11 cents per liter of gas.
00:59:02.220Then following the election, what happened?
00:59:05.180Well, Truro says now that they had a new mandate, well, we're going to keep raising it all the way up to, what is it, 40 cents per liter of gas.
00:59:12.460So I think that this type of legislation would give people a better tool to actually hold their politicians accountable and to actually get important policy issues on the tables all across Canada.
00:59:25.380Yeah, another aspect that needs to be put into the legislations, I think, with these two is not just citizens initiated referenda, but binding citizens initiated referenda. Because if there's not a binding clause for it, then still all it is is a poll. And even if it might be politically dangerous for government to do, they could ignore the outcome of a referenda more easily in that case.
00:59:47.180Yeah, they could for sure. I mean, they didn't Calgary. Remember, that wasn't exactly legally binding. So I totally agree with what you're saying. There needs to be even more strict limits on what politicians can do or not do after referendum. But even if that's not included, it's still better than not being in. Right.
01:00:05.820but Corey one thing I do want to circle back to is kind of where you started the conversation off
01:00:11.520like why is the piece targeting Mr. Polyev of course we want all parties all political leaders
01:00:18.380to run with recall and initiative but the reason we focused on Mr. Polyev in this op-ed is because
01:00:24.600his whole campaign he's been talking about putting people back in charge making a Canada where the
01:00:30.580government is the servant, not the master. He's right when he identifies that there's an
01:00:35.820accountability problem in Ottawa. But we think that one of the key solutions to that then is,
01:00:41.280okay, if you want to show that citizens are the boss, then input recall and referendum laws.
01:00:46.820And so far, we haven't heard him make a firm commitment to this piece of legislation.
01:00:53.020Yeah, well, and you want to, this is the time to get those commitments. I mean,
01:00:56.740And I guess you see why they fear making those commitments.
01:01:00.100It didn't work out very well with Mr. O'Toole on the carbon tax when you guys got his signature on it.
01:01:05.080But it's important times like now when they're running to get them to make a statement on that.
01:01:09.660So I imagine you'll keep putting the question to Mr. Pollyov as long as you can.
01:02:39.560So, for example, in British Columbia, it wasn't a specific policy per se that led to the recall campaign.
01:02:44.720It was when their MLA was caught sending fake letters to the editor, right?
01:02:48.880So the recall tool, I think, would be more for making sure politicians aren't abusing the public purse and, quite frankly, just aren't trying to mislead Canadians and mislead taxpayers.
01:03:01.920Yeah, well, and as you said, the preventative power potentially anyways, maybe some of these guys
01:03:06.240think, okay, well, if I pull this off, I could, you know, have to answer for it. Because a lot
01:03:13.600of what happens too is they pull their stunts, but they just hope that the public forgets by
01:03:17.600the time they get another chance to get to the polls. And the recall is always hopefully at the
01:03:21.440back of their minds saying, you know, I better keep a clean nose here or we're going to be in
01:03:27.280trouble. Hey, and one more thing I need to add, right? We we've seen some success here in Canada
01:03:31.900with recall and initiative. You mentioned the fact that, uh, a lot of this happens in the States
01:03:36.640already, already about half of the States in the U S have either some form of recall or some form
01:03:41.980of initiative legislation. But also, uh, we found that there's about 19 countries, at least that
01:03:46.860we've identified that have some form of, uh, of recall legislation, uh, countries similar to us,
01:03:52.720or at least peers like Japan. You've got Swiss, you've got some Mexican states that also have
01:03:58.240recall. I believe there is some type of recall process in Germany as well, maybe even at the
01:04:03.580local level. But then initiative, the referendum legislation, we've identified 36 different
01:04:08.900countries that have some form of direct democratic process that allows their citizens to influence
01:04:14.900legislation. You've got Italy, where there's something like that. You have New Zealand.
01:04:18.540And of course, the one that everyone knows about is Switzerland.
01:04:22.000So I just want to make clear is that there's so many different examples to choose from where you can strike the right balance federally between more accountability and making sure political chaos doesn't ensue.
01:04:33.240Yeah, we can't pretend that it's unprecedented or there aren't working examples to go from.
01:04:39.520Well, I appreciate that, Franco, and thanks for coming on today.
01:04:43.120Where can people find more information about what you're pushing and encouraging out there in the taxpayers' world?
01:04:48.540Well, hey, head over to taxpayer.com, check out our newsroom, sign some petitions,
01:04:53.180follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And Corey, thanks so much for having me on.
01:04:56.560Always good to have you here, Franco. I'll talk to you later.
01:05:01.420Remember that, guys? Taxpayer.com. That's Franco Terrizano. And yeah, it's not all just the
01:05:05.440economics and numbers and pencil sharpening and all that. When we're talking democracy and
01:05:11.320initiatives such as that, like recall and referenda, they're supportive of that too.
01:05:16.300And, yeah, they were very strongly involved in that Calgary referendum with the Olympics.
01:05:21.000That's one of the few things I'll give Rachel Notley credit for as a premier, because Nenshi had his Olympic dream.
01:05:26.880He wanted his vanity project, no matter how many billions it was going to cost.
01:05:31.040And Notley realized that this was going to turn into a boondoggle, you know, if not just for Calgary, but for herself as a provincial government.
01:05:37.880She says, fine, we will help fund it. But first, we need permission from Calgarians, run a plebiscite in that case or a referendum.
01:14:41.740Yeah, online forums for public services.
01:14:44.260This is what I was talking about earlier.
01:14:45.380You know, have exploded in recent weeks
01:14:46.800with comments about the prospect of returning the office with employees, comparing notes on
01:14:50.580the hybrid work plans each department's planning to adopt. Basically, they don't want to go back
01:14:54.760to work. I mean, God, come on, I've been able to work in my bathrobe and, you know, do what I like
01:15:00.680in my household, I guess, all day. But if the outcomes were good, that's fine. But all of the
01:15:05.360government services are falling behind. We got immigration processes behind by years. We've got
01:15:10.460passports behind by months. These are simple renewals. Obviously, they can't do it from home,
01:15:15.520not efficiently, at least a lot of them. And yeah, one comment by Health Canada manager urging
01:15:20.000employees to return to the office in part to provide employees at a nearby Subway restaurant
01:15:23.500with more hours blew up into a series of sarcastic memes. So that's what the case you try to make to
01:15:30.460get them. Please, please come back because the Subway next door is going broke since you guys
01:15:33.760are all working from home. By God, you guys are idiots. You know, in the real world, what happens?
01:15:39.040Please come back or we're firing you. That's how it works. That's how it's supposed to work.
01:15:44.420please come back or we will give your exceedingly generous pension plan and compensation and extended
01:15:50.980vacation time and all those benefits to somebody else who will appreciate it that's how you deal
01:15:56.380with these guys not by begging them not by saying please please you know get out you know take get
01:16:01.480out of your bathrobe and come in and actually go to work for a change because the subway sandwich
01:16:04.580artist next door might lose his job because you guys have been in the office pathetic
01:16:08.540Okay. Ah, let's see. Well, these challenges will carry on. I'm not sure if Gil's still doing that
01:16:14.300in Alberta, but the battle will still go on in the fact that it even makes news, but masks will not
01:16:19.820be mandatory in Ontario schools this September, the province's education minister said. We'll see.
01:16:25.220We'll see. If it spikes just a little and CTV says the world's on fire, they might rush out there
01:16:29.440because Ford loves to panic and then mask up all those children who would otherwise be allowed to
01:16:34.820smile and laugh with each other in school. It's not over guys. The fact that it even makes news
01:16:40.160shows that it's not over. Uh, here's an odd one. You know, it'd be interesting to see what came
01:16:46.400out of this one. So the Montreal pride parade, that's a huge one. And it was supposed to start,
01:16:51.160you know, yesterday, uh, it was canceled. Like we're talking with hours notice, like a huge
01:16:57.160event, a big affair. And they just said, no, we can't get it together. It's canceled. And I guess
01:17:02.580it was for lack of security, but I mean, it didn't occur to these guys that you got thousands. I,
01:17:07.620I guess, you know, internal disorganization can happen to any group, but holy cow, this is brutal.
01:17:13.800I said they needed a hundred staff to monitor the parade route and they'd never been hired.
01:17:17.300Now I wonder, and this is purely speculation and I could be wrong, but you see a problem we had
01:17:21.400in Alberta is if you remember, Black Lives Matter protesters managed to stop the parades and stop
01:17:28.780pride events in Edmonton, uh, because they had a problem with the police and it was just a lot
01:17:36.200of pushing back and forth between some, some very extreme activists and, and, and it just turned
01:17:41.080into a mess and it ended up shutting down pride events. But I wonder if the fact that, yeah,
01:17:45.160they're saying they needed a hundred security staff to monitor this parade route if, and I don't
01:17:49.340know, but I'm wondering if the Montreal pride ones had also told police to stay away. And if they
01:17:53.640told police to stay away, then yes, they would need private security to deal with it. Cause
01:17:57.580Unfortunately, there's also crazed, you know, anti-LGBTQ extremists who might come to try and disrupt the parade and things like that as well.
01:18:05.540But something very bizarre happened over there.
01:18:08.140And a very big event has now been put off.
01:18:11.120It'll be interesting to see what comes out of that.
01:18:13.620But when they go woke, go broke, it tends to apply to a lot of things.
01:18:17.200And I suspect there's been some problems going on that led to their end.
01:18:22.560Another story in the Western Standard.
01:18:23.700Angela Pitt, she's the Airdrie East MLA, and she's leaving her role as Rajan Sani's UCP
01:18:29.620chair of the campaign for Rajan Sani, UCP leadership. She says she needs to realign
01:18:36.200with her constituents. That's just the old, almost, you know, leaving to spend more time
01:18:41.140with the family sort of thing. She wants it for some reason or another. I suspect they're realizing
01:18:46.400that Rajan Sani's campaign really isn't going anywhere, and you just don't want to be attached
01:18:51.620to it at the end when she drops off in the first ballot with half a percent of the votes.
01:18:55.940But whatever, we'll see what Ms. Pitt gets on with. But I mean, I'm sure she was probably
01:19:00.200capable of being a chair of that campaign and still speaking to her constituents. But we're
01:19:04.020seeing the race start to solidify, I guess, in some ways, you know, where the people are
01:19:08.540realizing which campaigns are going to actually get somewhere and which won't. Let's see another
01:19:14.740thing in the headlines, and it was just interesting, a buyer cut $49,000 off the price of an East
01:19:20.660York three bedrooms out in Ontario. But I talked to our columnist, Mike Thomas, about that with
01:19:25.980real estate and everything. He's been saying we're expecting a correction in real estate
01:19:30.740to come pretty soon. I mean, it has been superheated in Ontario and BC and some markets
01:19:38.840and everything. And it's just kind of coming back to where it belongs, perhaps. And maybe we're
01:19:44.280seeing that correction start to happen. We just, we want to see a correction. And he corrected me
01:19:49.140on that when we had him on the show, not bubble popping. He doesn't like that term and that's
01:19:53.280fine. If it's fake, if it's really bad and it's a bubble, it will pop and you can have a real
01:19:57.100catastrophe because people lose way too much equity, way too fast, and it really messes the
01:20:02.980market for everything. But maybe that correction is starting to come along. But part of that
01:20:06.520correction is also because we're probably moving towards a recession. I hate using that word,
01:20:12.840but it's true. But I mean, it's almost unavoidable. The government's overspent,
01:20:15.340overspent, overspent. They shut things down. They screwed the supply chains. Interest rates are going
01:20:19.380up. What do you think is going to happen? I'd suggest to anybody, I'm not a financial advisor,
01:20:24.040you know, we got some great ones out there, like with the Integrated Wealth Management and such
01:20:29.440who've been on here before, and I trust them for financial advice. But either way, my little bit
01:20:34.420of advice, I would say though, is looking at what's rumbling on the horizon. Hey, if you can,
01:20:38.900pay down any debt you got, particularly unsecured stuff, as fast as you can. Because the interest
01:20:43.980rates as Neil is saying, the commenter, yeah, they're rising and it's just hurting people and
01:20:47.640they're going to rise more and the economy is going to slow down. So yeah, careful out there
01:20:54.740guys. Okay. And so just that reminder again, tomorrow at rooftop in Calgary, there's going
01:21:00.600to be a debate with the UCP top front runners. Those determined by, I know some people get upset,
01:21:05.520but it was determined by a very large poll, not our online one. And it found that basically far
01:21:11.680and beyond, as far as can be found, Daniel Smith, Brian Jean, and Travis Taves are the three top
01:21:21.980contenders. And it's going to go from 5.30 until about 7. It's downtown. Check it out. Go to the
01:21:27.900Western Standard online. You can see how to get tickets and how to get out to that. We'll all be
01:21:31.620there. And it will be streaming. I've seen some people asking about that. Yes, it will be streaming.
01:21:35.260So you'll be able to catch the whole thing streaming online. But it's nice to get there
01:21:38.700person, meet with us, meet with the candidates and check that stuff out. And tomorrow I'm going
01:21:45.060to have David McClellan on. He founded Social Catfish. This is basically a site that helps
01:21:50.160counter a lot of those scams that have been kind of, well, reeling women in and robbing them and
01:21:55.700ripping them off. And I'm going to talk with Melanie Riston for a little while as well tomorrow
01:22:00.520because she's still keeping, well, those episodes are coming out with her series on freedom fighters
01:22:05.040and COVID treated fighters, it's been doing really well.
01:22:07.440And we'll discuss that a little further and see how it's been going.
01:22:10.400Plus, I'll be ranting and bitching and moaning and doing my usual thing.