Western Standard - Wil Jimmy and Robyn Lore talk about Neestanan

00:00:00.000 I'm joined in studio with Robin Lohr and Will Jimmy of Nistanan. I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing

00:00:05.520 that correctly. So this is an Indigenous-led group and it's working towards expanding, I guess,

00:00:10.480 the utility corridor or exportability to Hudson's Bay. Have I got that correctly, essentially,

00:00:15.760 in a nutshell? Yes, you do. Okay. So Nistanan, for those, and I don't speak Cree, but Nistanan,

00:00:22.160 for those that don't, means all of us in Cree or in some parts of Cree-speaking world, us too.

00:00:30.960 Well, and what's interesting right off the bat with that is that clearly it's a partnership

00:00:35.840 initiative. It's not talking about negotiating an agreement with First Nations on the way through,

00:00:41.440 it's partnering with First Nations and actually getting together on that. I mean, it's surprising

00:00:46.080 it kind of took this long and this many fights with infrastructure projects, but working together is

00:00:51.280 the way, probably a better way to get things done, I would say. I think it's, the whole concept is

00:00:55.520 not new. It was talked about back in the 70s, even the 60s by the Indigenous leadership at the time.

00:01:02.240 But I think what has happened is that, you know, the will and the expertise and the willingness to

00:01:08.800 step forward and pick up the ball and run with it wasn't there. And I think over the years, the

00:01:13.840 transformation of Indigenous leadership has created the opportunity for us as First Nations

00:01:21.200 or Indigenous people to pick up that ball and run with it and become a part of the Canadian economy.

00:01:27.760 Yeah, well, and it's the active nature of it that's good. I mean, it's not just, okay,

00:01:31.840 we've come to an agreement, here's your monthly royalty and we'll carry on. I mean, it's participation,

00:01:36.000 it's being within the agreement, I think that would lead to a more productive relationship,

00:01:39.920 theoretically. Sure, I would say for the economy and for the Indigenous participation,

00:01:46.000 it's transformational. So I guess getting on to what this particular project is. So I mean,

00:01:53.520 we've had a lot of bottlenecks with getting a lot of products to coastal waters. I mean,

00:01:57.760 energy has been the prime one, but this is talking about a lot of products actually, besides just

00:02:02.240 energy products, but can you kind of lay out what's being proposed, like the route to get to the coast on

00:02:08.480 this? Well, we're, you know, we're product agnostic and the University of Calgary School of Public

00:02:15.520 Policy has got some really good work on this and saying Canada needs more multimodal transportation

00:02:22.000 systems. So the vision is a Indigenous owned corridor. Inside that can go all sorts of things,

00:02:31.600 be it power lines, fiber optics, rail lines, pipelines, etc. Yeah, all of those things. So would this be

00:02:39.920 going in and supplementing the existing rail line that's already going to Churchill or is this a

00:02:44.480 whole new corridor you're talking about? The corridor in itself would be something new that would be

00:02:52.240 developed from Northern Alberta through Northern Saskatchewan, Northern Manitoba into the Hudson Bay.

00:02:57.520 The rail line itself has been there for a hundred years. It was known as the Hudson Bay rail line at

00:03:03.200 one point. Now it's the One North Rail Line, which is owned 100% by the nations and the municipalities

00:03:12.000 in Northern Manitoba. Okay, so this would be a whole new line potentially going to? Well, it would be a

00:03:18.560 collaboration with that. Okay. With that and we're not interested in going to a lot of effort to replace

00:03:27.040 something that already exists. That's what I'm kind of wondering. So I mean, we've heard that this line

00:03:31.200 it's a tough one to maintain. It's covering a lot of skeg and soft areas, permafrost, things like that,

00:03:38.240 and it needs some upgrading, I imagine. Yes, it does. The line from the part to Amory, Manitoba,

00:03:44.880 I think would suffice with some maintenance on it upgrades. The line that goes from Amory up to

00:03:52.880 Churchill is the one that's Muskegee and the ground conditions are not favorable to hauling heavy

00:03:58.240 loads on the rail line. Okay. So that different line has more ability to... Yeah. The Canadian

00:04:06.320 government and the Manitoba government have put forward $147 million to improve all of that.

00:04:15.360 Okay. So that's a work in progress. So the kind of products that would go on that I imagine things,

00:04:20.880 I mean, we've had a lot of supply chain issues. I think the more means you have to move product in

00:04:24.960 and out, it's going to be better for the nation as a whole. But I think initially agriculturally

00:04:29.600 or fertilizer, things like that would be prime type of... Oh, go ahead.

00:04:34.320 Well, potash is front and center. It's a simple thing to move. And Canada has half of the world's

00:04:41.760 potash reserves. It's a very necessary fertilizer to grow food. And Belarus and Russia are the other

00:04:50.800 two big producers, and they're mostly off the market. So it's a problem for the world. We think

00:04:58.000 that that could be exported out of the Hudson's Bay through the indigenous ownership pretty expediently. 0.91

00:05:05.520 Okay. And likewise, I mean, I imagine, as you said, you're agnostic with it. Anything could go,

00:05:09.920 but there's things you could see along the lines, like forest products, for example,

00:05:14.000 that could be a potentially good area. It's an inert product. You don't have an environmental hazard in

00:05:18.160 moving that. It can be stored at a port for seasonal reasons, but also help the communities

00:05:25.280 that are developing their forestry industries where they are along the right-of-way would be it.

00:05:29.440 Well, we were meeting with Lac La Ronge's business group last week. They're a big forestry operator in

00:05:37.760 northern Saskatchewan. And your points are correct. In exporting stuff to the US, we end up with

00:05:45.280 tariff and royalty issues and protests about subsidization of the Canadian business. That's

00:05:53.440 not a problem heading to Europe. And again, Hudson's Bay is close to Europe.

00:05:58.400 So speaking of Hudson's Bay though, you do have a limited shipping window when you're in there. It's

00:06:03.760 not like some of the other deep water ports on the east and west coasts. How much time is it viable to

00:06:08.640 to bring product in there? Well, you know, when you compare Churchill, the port of Churchill,

00:06:15.680 as it sits today, it's in fresh water and it freezes solid in the winter months. Probably six

00:06:22.400 to seven months, it's frozen. So you've got five months of shipping time. We looked at the port of

00:06:28.640 Port Nelson, which is south of Churchill, and that's located in salt water on the Hudson Bay.

00:06:34.400 And although there's ice in the wintertime, but it's more like slush, a meter of slushy ice. And

00:06:40.400 that's why we kind of thought, well, maybe we should, you know, investigate the option of putting a port

00:06:47.600 in Port Nelson, where the original site was 100 years ago, prior to moving north to Churchill.

00:06:54.720 I'll just expand on that. We're not inventing anything here. The Russians do 1.00

00:06:59.600 all of this in way tougher conditions. I think it is important to have a year round shipping port there.

00:07:07.440 So that's a work in progress and discussion with the existing port at Churchill and the owners and

00:07:18.160 who are, as Will said, are mostly indigenous. And so we're not, this isn't a them and us program. This is

00:07:25.760 the collaboration. Yeah. And then what about for bringing product in? You know, that's another aspect.

00:07:32.000 I mean, I could imagine you could be bringing import products into this port for distribution.

00:07:37.120 I mean, Winnipeg is a good transportation hub for intermodal transport, things like that.

00:07:42.560 Are you looking at overseas partnerships, that sort of thing? We haven't been looking at overseas

00:07:46.720 partnerships as of yet, but what we've looked at is actually having a container port as well, as part of

00:07:52.480 phase one and along with potash. That way we can get the containers in there, ship them and rail them

00:08:00.480 into Winnipeg where they have the transportation hub. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, just it would be quite

00:08:06.640 an economic boon. I mean, when we're bringing product now, right into the center of the nation,

00:08:10.000 geographically, rather than to our east and west coasts and still having to ship inwards. Likewise,

00:08:15.120 I imagine there's potential to ship downwards into the Midwest and the United States.

00:08:18.720 Yeah. I mean, the opportunities, there's a bit of a build it and they will come

00:08:26.080 opportunity here. Containers are how a lot of things get moved. A center port, which is a Winnipeg

00:08:35.600 promoted phenomena that needs a deep water port, a tidewater port, and this could be a great marriage

00:08:43.440 with it to service the middle of North America. Winnipeg's the geographical center of North America.

00:08:50.720 And you mentioned deep water. So that is a good, it can sustain some larger ships and things such

00:08:56.160 as that. Like I spent a few years working up in Inuvik, for example, in Tuktaak, their ports, but

00:09:00.560 due to the nature of the Delta and the ice, it's just an appropriate area for heavy shipping.

00:09:04.880 Sure. You know, liken it to the Gulf Coast of the US. We would need to do some dredging, we think.

00:09:12.720 That's an engineering work in progress. Dredging is why the original port, as Will mentioned,

00:09:20.880 was moved to Churchill from Port Nelson. Dredging was a big problem in 1920. Not a big deal in 2022.

00:09:31.680 Yeah, so we've got better ability to dredge silt builds up and it causes issues. But are there

00:09:36.800 environmental challenges then with that? I mean, you know, looking at some of the areas where you

00:09:41.520 could get pushback from some groups or people saying if you're disrupting things along the coast,

00:09:46.000 is that I imagine there's mitigation plans? Yeah, you know, what we've done is actually get

00:09:52.560 the two nations that are right on the on the coast involved, and they've been spearheading the whole

00:09:58.880 environmental and social impact studies. Because it's the backyard. And they've taken the ball and

00:10:07.200 they've hired their own, they've got two scientists that are actually from their nation that are

00:10:14.640 working and one is a professor in the university, the other one works for an organization in Winnipeg.

00:10:20.240 And they're from the communities, they've got their doctorate degrees, one in environmental science,

00:10:24.240 the other one in the social impact studies. So they're going to take the ball and roll, run with

00:10:30.320 it. And what better way to have successful endeavor with the young people leading the charge? Because

00:10:38.800 it's the backyard, they know the trap lines, etc. And they know the movement of the wildlife as well.

00:10:45.440 Yeah, I mean, they're gonna know what's going on. And they're the most impacted. So it's good to,

00:10:49.680 you know, seeing that working ahead of that, rather than working after the fact, and then getting into

00:10:53.040 a fight. And I think, yeah, I think that's going to, to alleviate a lot of unnecessary setbacks,

00:11:01.040 that like pushbacks, etc. So the another area with challenges sounds interesting with the federal

00:11:07.520 government, as you said, has already put a lot of money into upgrading the line. So I mean, they did,

00:11:11.040 they're certainly receptive to some degree of expanding the capacity then, or they wouldn't have gone in.

00:11:15.600 Is there already communications with other levels of government? I mean, that's always one of the

00:11:18.880 areas you can kind of get tied up in red tape. And even with the best of intentions, things can

00:11:23.280 get hung up for a long time. Can I quote you on you could get tied up in red tape?

00:11:30.880 Corey, we've built a good relationship with the government of Manitoba in this process,

00:11:39.360 and are in regular contact with them, less so with Saskatchewan and Alberta. But we are in contact

00:11:48.320 with members of cabinet in both governments. It's, it's something that's got to be done. This being

00:11:55.360 an indigenous driven and indigenous owned project, it's a, they have powers under the Constitution and

00:12:03.680 under their treaties, that a typical industry player doesn't.

00:12:06.960 Well, I was going to come to that in a sense, I mean, that kind of transcends,

00:12:10.960 it's like a whole other order of government or level of it. I mean, it doesn't give complete impunity to

00:12:15.200 push a project through. But it certainly gives a different type of leverage when speaking with the

00:12:20.720 federal government or speaking in, in, I mean, you're going to cross a number of jurisdictions

00:12:25.120 if this sort of project comes along. So all, all true. It's the vision is across the prairies

00:12:32.400 and the northern prairies. So that'll be virtually all crown land, current crown land that will be

00:12:40.320 transformed to indigenous land through treaty land entitlements and other existing mechanisms with

00:12:46.800 between governments and the indigenous people. So if you did do a corridor, a full corridor with

00:12:54.400 a number of utilities, then I mean, how wide would you be looking for a right of way? Like, you know,

00:12:59.280 a pipeline right of way can range anywhere from 50 meters to 150. You know, I guess if you have

00:13:06.000 overhead power, if you have pipes, if you have rail, is it a wide footprint?

00:13:10.480 Well, we, this one will be measured in kilometers, not meters. Okay.

00:13:15.200 So it'll be one, two or three kilometers depending on, on, on the part. It's got a, it a number of

00:13:22.320 things, you know, one of them being a large direct current power line. Currently, Manitoba Hydro is

00:13:30.800 selling power to the US at less than two cents a kilowatt hour. You can finance that existing line into

00:13:38.320 Alberta, if you could get permission to build it, which indigenous groups think they can. 0.91

00:13:46.160 with the difference, with that spread in the power.

00:13:48.080 Which again, I mean, you know, if I don't want to get too far into the weeds on the whole thing

00:13:53.360 of renewable energy and so on, but hydro generated power is, is a green type of energy. It's emissions

00:13:58.960 free, and it would fit with a lot of net zero plans. If you can bring that sort of generation,

00:14:03.520 then out to the west and into Alberta and other areas where you wouldn't have to.

00:14:08.080 Well, and as one of the Manitoba cabinet ministers said that water is going down the Nelson river,

00:14:13.360 whether we turn it into electricity for use and, and it's green use.

00:14:18.800 Yeah. I mean, it's not like the water vanishes when you put a hydroelectric down,

00:14:21.600 you're going to hold it up for a bit, make some juice and the water can carry on where it was going.

00:14:25.280 Yeah.

00:14:26.080 That's great. So at what stage is, is, is your group at at this point? You know, is it a fundraising,

00:14:32.080 consultation? I imagine there's a number of irons you got in the fire with this.

00:14:36.400 Yeah. What, what we're doing now, we thought it was very important to actually engage the

00:14:40.640 communities along the potential corridor, just so that we avoid unnecessary setbacks. And, you know,

00:14:47.680 the last year and a half or so, we've been visiting the communities, making presentation, consulting with

00:14:53.600 them and, uh, basically, uh, getting their, uh, their support in, uh, in this endeavor. And, uh,

00:15:00.560 it has gone successfully to date, uh, all along the road, we've, uh, we've had, uh, no setbacks in

00:15:06.720 terms of pushback. A lot of good questions, mind you, but, uh, at the end of the day, you know,

00:15:11.520 a lot of nations that we've spoken to thus far have, uh, expressed their support on a project like this.

00:15:17.200 And it's still a bit high level, but what sort of timeline are you looking at then at this point

00:15:22.000 where you think perhaps product could actually be moving or even construction, I guess, moving on,

00:15:25.920 on this, this right away? Well, the, you know, the, the world need for this type of project

00:15:31.680 in Canada is yesterday, or as you know, as one of the professors that looked at it said, well,

00:15:37.920 we needed this 25 years ago. All of that's true, but we didn't build it 25 years ago. So the question

00:15:45.440 is how soon can we move it through? And to background to some of your questions,

00:15:51.600 uh, the largest, uh, time consuming thing here is the regulatory process and the consultation process.

00:16:02.480 We've focused on the consultation process because it's indigenous owned and we want not just a chief

00:16:10.480 and council to think this is a good idea. We want the community, the grassroots people, which represents

00:16:17.760 the nation to, uh, buy into this and to give their approval. And, and we've, we've gotten those, uh,

00:16:25.040 those supports. Uh, it seems to be, uh, uh, a long, a long, uh, it would appear to be a long process,

00:16:32.320 but I think it's the right process. Yeah. Well, you can get ahold of it if you don't do it correctly.

00:16:36.720 I think if in Calgary, for example, with the ring road, I mean, they, they often, they got approval from

00:16:40.720 the chief and council, but when they put it to the people on the ground, they said, no,

00:16:43.760 we don't like this. Exactly. And they rejected it. Exactly. And years were lost. If they started

00:16:47.920 at the bottom and work your way up, that road could have been done a long time ago. So, you know,

00:16:53.200 it's good to see more proactive approach with something like this because if people don't feel

00:16:57.760 they've been spoken with and respected that they're not going to cooperate later on. Yeah. And I think

00:17:02.480 that's, that's where all the, uh, setbacks with other projects have, have arisen is that, uh, the grassroots

00:17:08.800 people weren't, uh, weren't properly consulted and as a result, uh, were, you know, uh, uh, felt that

00:17:16.240 they were, they were being wronged. But I think with our process, we're going to, to the grassroots

00:17:20.800 people explaining to them, listening to their concerns and agreeing with their concerns and, uh,

00:17:27.120 putting our minds together and saying, yeah, but we can do it in this fashion where it's, uh, mitigates

00:17:32.480 and minimizes the impacts. Well, it sounds like a very exciting initiative. If it, you know,

00:17:38.720 it's presuming it can come together. I really, you know, like where it's going. Where can people,

00:17:41.840 uh, I mean, I appreciate you coming in to speak to us. If there's more you'd like to add and where

00:17:45.200 can people find more information about this? Well, uh, there's a website, uh, vistanan.ca,

00:17:52.400 uh, and, uh, it's put together by us amateurs. So don't be too,

00:17:57.680 I've looked at it. It's got some good videos and things, of course, to it. So I just like to,

00:18:02.800 you know, be able to remind people while they're at it, is this where they can find some more if

00:18:06.480 it's, uh, caught interest. We can only cover so much in the show and perhaps they'd have things

00:18:10.320 they'd want to send your way for, you know, feedback or whatnot. Yeah. And we'd welcome that.

00:18:15.680 Yeah. We, we think it's the right thing to do at a whole bunch of levels. Uh, it's interesting,

00:18:21.280 uh, talking to international groups that are potential partners and, and funders.

00:18:26.000 Uh, there's a real doubt out there internationally that Canada could actually ever approve a big

00:18:32.000 project. Well, that, that is a concern. I mean, we, we've tried a number of large capital, uh,

00:18:37.520 projects and they've been kind of stopped in their tracks and it does make investors get a little shy

00:18:41.840 with things, but the, uh, indigenous elements always been a large part of that. So if, if you're

00:18:47.280 partnering with the indigenous communities, then I, I imagine a lot of that could be rectified.

00:18:51.680 Yeah. Well, yeah. And, and more than partnering, they're, they're owners.

00:18:56.640 Yes. Yeah. And, and, and I think that the big difference is, uh, not just partnering with them,

00:19:02.720 but they're, uh, you know, we, we as indigenous people are leading and taking the ball and running

00:19:08.960 with this, uh, big infrastructure project. Well, excellent. Well, thank you both very much for,

00:19:14.160 for coming in today. It's just really sounds like a great initiative. I hope to see more progress on it.

00:19:19.120 Maybe we'll check in again, uh, down the road a little and see, see how it's coming along.

00:19:22.320 Yes. Love to. Thanks for your interest. All right. Thanks. We'll talk again soon, guys.

00:19:25.760 Okay. Thank you.

00:19:30.160 The current Lethbridge feed grain prices are as follows. Catch barley is unchanged at $4.55.

00:19:35.440 Feed wheat remains at $4.78 and corn is down $4 at $465 per ton. In the milling wheat markets,

00:19:43.280 December Minneapolis futures are down eight and three quarter cents at $9.29 per bushel,

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Western Standard - November 10, 2022

Wil Jimmy and Robyn Lore talk about Neestanan

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