Wil Jimmy and Robyn Lore talk about Neestanan
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Summary
In this episode, we talk with Robin Lohr and Will Jimmy of Nishnapai Nation about the One North Rail Project, a partnership between First Nations and the Canadian government to expand export access to Hudson's Bay.
Transcript
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I'm joined in studio with Robin Lohr and Will Jimmy of Nistanan. I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing
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that correctly. So this is an Indigenous-led group and it's working towards expanding, I guess,
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the utility corridor or exportability to Hudson's Bay. Have I got that correctly, essentially,
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in a nutshell? Yes, you do. Okay. So Nistanan, for those, and I don't speak Cree, but Nistanan,
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for those that don't, means all of us in Cree or in some parts of Cree-speaking world, us too.
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Well, and what's interesting right off the bat with that is that clearly it's a partnership
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initiative. It's not talking about negotiating an agreement with First Nations on the way through,
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it's partnering with First Nations and actually getting together on that. I mean, it's surprising
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it kind of took this long and this many fights with infrastructure projects, but working together is
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the way, probably a better way to get things done, I would say. I think it's, the whole concept is
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not new. It was talked about back in the 70s, even the 60s by the Indigenous leadership at the time.
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But I think what has happened is that, you know, the will and the expertise and the willingness to
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step forward and pick up the ball and run with it wasn't there. And I think over the years, the
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transformation of Indigenous leadership has created the opportunity for us as First Nations
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or Indigenous people to pick up that ball and run with it and become a part of the Canadian economy.
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Yeah, well, and it's the active nature of it that's good. I mean, it's not just, okay,
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we've come to an agreement, here's your monthly royalty and we'll carry on. I mean, it's participation,
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it's being within the agreement, I think that would lead to a more productive relationship,
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theoretically. Sure, I would say for the economy and for the Indigenous participation,
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it's transformational. So I guess getting on to what this particular project is. So I mean,
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we've had a lot of bottlenecks with getting a lot of products to coastal waters. I mean,
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energy has been the prime one, but this is talking about a lot of products actually, besides just
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energy products, but can you kind of lay out what's being proposed, like the route to get to the coast on
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this? Well, we're, you know, we're product agnostic and the University of Calgary School of Public
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Policy has got some really good work on this and saying Canada needs more multimodal transportation
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systems. So the vision is a Indigenous owned corridor. Inside that can go all sorts of things,
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be it power lines, fiber optics, rail lines, pipelines, etc. Yeah, all of those things. So would this be
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going in and supplementing the existing rail line that's already going to Churchill or is this a
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whole new corridor you're talking about? The corridor in itself would be something new that would be
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developed from Northern Alberta through Northern Saskatchewan, Northern Manitoba into the Hudson Bay.
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The rail line itself has been there for a hundred years. It was known as the Hudson Bay rail line at
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one point. Now it's the One North Rail Line, which is owned 100% by the nations and the municipalities
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in Northern Manitoba. Okay, so this would be a whole new line potentially going to? Well, it would be a
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collaboration with that. Okay. With that and we're not interested in going to a lot of effort to replace
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something that already exists. That's what I'm kind of wondering. So I mean, we've heard that this line
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it's a tough one to maintain. It's covering a lot of skeg and soft areas, permafrost, things like that,
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and it needs some upgrading, I imagine. Yes, it does. The line from the part to Amory, Manitoba,
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I think would suffice with some maintenance on it upgrades. The line that goes from Amory up to
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Churchill is the one that's Muskegee and the ground conditions are not favorable to hauling heavy
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loads on the rail line. Okay. So that different line has more ability to... Yeah. The Canadian
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government and the Manitoba government have put forward $147 million to improve all of that.
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Okay. So that's a work in progress. So the kind of products that would go on that I imagine things,
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I mean, we've had a lot of supply chain issues. I think the more means you have to move product in
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and out, it's going to be better for the nation as a whole. But I think initially agriculturally
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or fertilizer, things like that would be prime type of... Oh, go ahead.
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Well, potash is front and center. It's a simple thing to move. And Canada has half of the world's
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potash reserves. It's a very necessary fertilizer to grow food. And Belarus and Russia are the other
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two big producers, and they're mostly off the market. So it's a problem for the world. We think
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that that could be exported out of the Hudson's Bay through the indigenous ownership pretty expediently.
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Okay. And likewise, I mean, I imagine, as you said, you're agnostic with it. Anything could go,
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but there's things you could see along the lines, like forest products, for example,
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that could be a potentially good area. It's an inert product. You don't have an environmental hazard in
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moving that. It can be stored at a port for seasonal reasons, but also help the communities
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that are developing their forestry industries where they are along the right-of-way would be it.
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Well, we were meeting with Lac La Ronge's business group last week. They're a big forestry operator in
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northern Saskatchewan. And your points are correct. In exporting stuff to the US, we end up with
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tariff and royalty issues and protests about subsidization of the Canadian business. That's
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not a problem heading to Europe. And again, Hudson's Bay is close to Europe.
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So speaking of Hudson's Bay though, you do have a limited shipping window when you're in there. It's
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not like some of the other deep water ports on the east and west coasts. How much time is it viable to
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to bring product in there? Well, you know, when you compare Churchill, the port of Churchill,
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as it sits today, it's in fresh water and it freezes solid in the winter months. Probably six
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to seven months, it's frozen. So you've got five months of shipping time. We looked at the port of
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Port Nelson, which is south of Churchill, and that's located in salt water on the Hudson Bay.
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And although there's ice in the wintertime, but it's more like slush, a meter of slushy ice. And
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that's why we kind of thought, well, maybe we should, you know, investigate the option of putting a port
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in Port Nelson, where the original site was 100 years ago, prior to moving north to Churchill.
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I'll just expand on that. We're not inventing anything here. The Russians do
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all of this in way tougher conditions. I think it is important to have a year round shipping port there.
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So that's a work in progress and discussion with the existing port at Churchill and the owners and
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who are, as Will said, are mostly indigenous. And so we're not, this isn't a them and us program. This is
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the collaboration. Yeah. And then what about for bringing product in? You know, that's another aspect.
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I mean, I could imagine you could be bringing import products into this port for distribution.
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I mean, Winnipeg is a good transportation hub for intermodal transport, things like that.
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Are you looking at overseas partnerships, that sort of thing? We haven't been looking at overseas
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partnerships as of yet, but what we've looked at is actually having a container port as well, as part of
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phase one and along with potash. That way we can get the containers in there, ship them and rail them
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into Winnipeg where they have the transportation hub. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, just it would be quite
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an economic boon. I mean, when we're bringing product now, right into the center of the nation,
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geographically, rather than to our east and west coasts and still having to ship inwards. Likewise,
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I imagine there's potential to ship downwards into the Midwest and the United States.
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Yeah. I mean, the opportunities, there's a bit of a build it and they will come
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opportunity here. Containers are how a lot of things get moved. A center port, which is a Winnipeg
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promoted phenomena that needs a deep water port, a tidewater port, and this could be a great marriage
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with it to service the middle of North America. Winnipeg's the geographical center of North America.
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And you mentioned deep water. So that is a good, it can sustain some larger ships and things such
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as that. Like I spent a few years working up in Inuvik, for example, in Tuktaak, their ports, but
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due to the nature of the Delta and the ice, it's just an appropriate area for heavy shipping.
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Sure. You know, liken it to the Gulf Coast of the US. We would need to do some dredging, we think.
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That's an engineering work in progress. Dredging is why the original port, as Will mentioned,
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was moved to Churchill from Port Nelson. Dredging was a big problem in 1920. Not a big deal in 2022.
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Yeah, so we've got better ability to dredge silt builds up and it causes issues. But are there
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environmental challenges then with that? I mean, you know, looking at some of the areas where you
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could get pushback from some groups or people saying if you're disrupting things along the coast,
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is that I imagine there's mitigation plans? Yeah, you know, what we've done is actually get
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the two nations that are right on the on the coast involved, and they've been spearheading the whole
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environmental and social impact studies. Because it's the backyard. And they've taken the ball and
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they've hired their own, they've got two scientists that are actually from their nation that are
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working and one is a professor in the university, the other one works for an organization in Winnipeg.
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And they're from the communities, they've got their doctorate degrees, one in environmental science,
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the other one in the social impact studies. So they're going to take the ball and roll, run with
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it. And what better way to have successful endeavor with the young people leading the charge? Because
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it's the backyard, they know the trap lines, etc. And they know the movement of the wildlife as well.
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Yeah, I mean, they're gonna know what's going on. And they're the most impacted. So it's good to,
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you know, seeing that working ahead of that, rather than working after the fact, and then getting into
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a fight. And I think, yeah, I think that's going to, to alleviate a lot of unnecessary setbacks,
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that like pushbacks, etc. So the another area with challenges sounds interesting with the federal
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government, as you said, has already put a lot of money into upgrading the line. So I mean, they did,
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they're certainly receptive to some degree of expanding the capacity then, or they wouldn't have gone in.
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Is there already communications with other levels of government? I mean, that's always one of the
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areas you can kind of get tied up in red tape. And even with the best of intentions, things can
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get hung up for a long time. Can I quote you on you could get tied up in red tape?
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Corey, we've built a good relationship with the government of Manitoba in this process,
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and are in regular contact with them, less so with Saskatchewan and Alberta. But we are in contact
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with members of cabinet in both governments. It's, it's something that's got to be done. This being
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an indigenous driven and indigenous owned project, it's a, they have powers under the Constitution and
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under their treaties, that a typical industry player doesn't.
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Well, I was going to come to that in a sense, I mean, that kind of transcends,
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it's like a whole other order of government or level of it. I mean, it doesn't give complete impunity to
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push a project through. But it certainly gives a different type of leverage when speaking with the
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federal government or speaking in, in, I mean, you're going to cross a number of jurisdictions
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if this sort of project comes along. So all, all true. It's the vision is across the prairies
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and the northern prairies. So that'll be virtually all crown land, current crown land that will be
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transformed to indigenous land through treaty land entitlements and other existing mechanisms with
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between governments and the indigenous people. So if you did do a corridor, a full corridor with
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a number of utilities, then I mean, how wide would you be looking for a right of way? Like, you know,
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a pipeline right of way can range anywhere from 50 meters to 150. You know, I guess if you have
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overhead power, if you have pipes, if you have rail, is it a wide footprint?
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Well, we, this one will be measured in kilometers, not meters. Okay.
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So it'll be one, two or three kilometers depending on, on, on the part. It's got a, it a number of
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things, you know, one of them being a large direct current power line. Currently, Manitoba Hydro is
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selling power to the US at less than two cents a kilowatt hour. You can finance that existing line into
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Alberta, if you could get permission to build it, which indigenous groups think they can.
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with the difference, with that spread in the power.
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Which again, I mean, you know, if I don't want to get too far into the weeds on the whole thing
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of renewable energy and so on, but hydro generated power is, is a green type of energy. It's emissions
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free, and it would fit with a lot of net zero plans. If you can bring that sort of generation,
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then out to the west and into Alberta and other areas where you wouldn't have to.
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Well, and as one of the Manitoba cabinet ministers said that water is going down the Nelson river,
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whether we turn it into electricity for use and, and it's green use.
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Yeah. I mean, it's not like the water vanishes when you put a hydroelectric down,
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you're going to hold it up for a bit, make some juice and the water can carry on where it was going.
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That's great. So at what stage is, is, is your group at at this point? You know, is it a fundraising,
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consultation? I imagine there's a number of irons you got in the fire with this.
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Yeah. What, what we're doing now, we thought it was very important to actually engage the
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communities along the potential corridor, just so that we avoid unnecessary setbacks. And, you know,
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the last year and a half or so, we've been visiting the communities, making presentation, consulting with
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them and, uh, basically, uh, getting their, uh, their support in, uh, in this endeavor. And, uh,
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it has gone successfully to date, uh, all along the road, we've, uh, we've had, uh, no setbacks in
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terms of pushback. A lot of good questions, mind you, but, uh, at the end of the day, you know,
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a lot of nations that we've spoken to thus far have, uh, expressed their support on a project like this.
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And it's still a bit high level, but what sort of timeline are you looking at then at this point
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where you think perhaps product could actually be moving or even construction, I guess, moving on,
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on this, this right away? Well, the, you know, the, the world need for this type of project
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in Canada is yesterday, or as you know, as one of the professors that looked at it said, well,
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we needed this 25 years ago. All of that's true, but we didn't build it 25 years ago. So the question
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is how soon can we move it through? And to background to some of your questions,
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uh, the largest, uh, time consuming thing here is the regulatory process and the consultation process.
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We've focused on the consultation process because it's indigenous owned and we want not just a chief
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and council to think this is a good idea. We want the community, the grassroots people, which represents
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the nation to, uh, buy into this and to give their approval. And, and we've, we've gotten those, uh,
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those supports. Uh, it seems to be, uh, uh, a long, a long, uh, it would appear to be a long process,
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but I think it's the right process. Yeah. Well, you can get ahold of it if you don't do it correctly.
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I think if in Calgary, for example, with the ring road, I mean, they, they often, they got approval from
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the chief and council, but when they put it to the people on the ground, they said, no,
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we don't like this. Exactly. And they rejected it. Exactly. And years were lost. If they started
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at the bottom and work your way up, that road could have been done a long time ago. So, you know,
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it's good to see more proactive approach with something like this because if people don't feel
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they've been spoken with and respected that they're not going to cooperate later on. Yeah. And I think
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that's, that's where all the, uh, setbacks with other projects have, have arisen is that, uh, the grassroots
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people weren't, uh, weren't properly consulted and as a result, uh, were, you know, uh, uh, felt that
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they were, they were being wronged. But I think with our process, we're going to, to the grassroots
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people explaining to them, listening to their concerns and agreeing with their concerns and, uh,
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putting our minds together and saying, yeah, but we can do it in this fashion where it's, uh, mitigates
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and minimizes the impacts. Well, it sounds like a very exciting initiative. If it, you know,
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it's presuming it can come together. I really, you know, like where it's going. Where can people,
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uh, I mean, I appreciate you coming in to speak to us. If there's more you'd like to add and where
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can people find more information about this? Well, uh, there's a website, uh, vistanan.ca,
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uh, and, uh, it's put together by us amateurs. So don't be too,
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I've looked at it. It's got some good videos and things, of course, to it. So I just like to,
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you know, be able to remind people while they're at it, is this where they can find some more if
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it's, uh, caught interest. We can only cover so much in the show and perhaps they'd have things
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they'd want to send your way for, you know, feedback or whatnot. Yeah. And we'd welcome that.
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Yeah. We, we think it's the right thing to do at a whole bunch of levels. Uh, it's interesting,
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uh, talking to international groups that are potential partners and, and funders.
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Uh, there's a real doubt out there internationally that Canada could actually ever approve a big
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project. Well, that, that is a concern. I mean, we, we've tried a number of large capital, uh,
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projects and they've been kind of stopped in their tracks and it does make investors get a little shy
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with things, but the, uh, indigenous elements always been a large part of that. So if, if you're
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partnering with the indigenous communities, then I, I imagine a lot of that could be rectified.
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Yeah. Well, yeah. And, and more than partnering, they're, they're owners.
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Yes. Yeah. And, and, and I think that the big difference is, uh, not just partnering with them,
00:19:02.720
but they're, uh, you know, we, we as indigenous people are leading and taking the ball and running
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with this, uh, big infrastructure project. Well, excellent. Well, thank you both very much for,
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for coming in today. It's just really sounds like a great initiative. I hope to see more progress on it.
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Maybe we'll check in again, uh, down the road a little and see, see how it's coming along.
00:19:22.320
Yes. Love to. Thanks for your interest. All right. Thanks. We'll talk again soon, guys.
00:19:30.160
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