Whatever Podcast - 1v1 DEBATE： Andrew Wilson vs. Marxist Anti-Trump Feminist

00:00:00.000 Welcome to the special debate edition of the whatever podcast coming to you live from Santa

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00:02:03.220 Very much appreciate it. All right, guys. So without further ado, I'm going to introduce our two

00:02:09.460 debaters. I'm joined today by Andrew Wilson. He's the host of The Crucible. He's a political

00:02:15.440 commentator. Also joining us today is Miss Kenzie. As she goes online, she is a Marxist feminist

00:02:23.360 debater. We have a few topics and prompts for today. But first, you will each have a five-minute

00:02:30.660 opening statement. And then the rest of the show will just be open conversation with, there are going

00:02:37.080 to be some prompt changes and breaks for messages from the audience. Now, we're going to do a coin

00:02:43.440 flip to determine who gets to pick whether they go first or second for the opener, if you can pull

00:02:48.760 that up. So, Kenzie, you get to call it heads or tails? Heads. Okay, tails. So, Andrew, do you want

00:02:58.440 to go first or second for the opener? I'll go second. Second. Okay. Kenzie, why don't you go ahead

00:03:04.240 and go first with your opening statement? So are we still doing like the statement in terms

00:03:10.680 of like what our worldview is? Generalized opening statements. And then I think we can incorporate

00:03:16.180 the worldview into the opening statement. Okay. Yeah. My name is Miss Kenzie. I'm a TikTok feminist

00:03:22.240 Marxist debater. My opening statement is essentially a feminist and Marxist critique on certain oppressive

00:03:29.900 systems that we see not only globally, but specifically in the United States, how they negatively

00:03:35.200 affect women, relationships, society as a whole, and the philosophy into which how we should organize

00:03:44.940 as a society into what our ultimate goal is. Okay. Andrew, what about you?

00:03:53.080 Yeah. So that was a really quick opening statement. Do you want more time or anything else? Okay. Go

00:03:59.600 ahead, Andrew. No, I'm ready to discuss stuff. All right. Well, my name is Andrew Wilson and you

00:04:05.260 could call me a Christian populist. You might refer to that as like Christian nationalist, maybe,

00:04:09.180 though I do prefer the term populist. Um, my overall viewpoint is based around objective morality,

00:04:18.320 things like this, things that aren't, we're not really on topic, I guess, for the purpose of this

00:04:21.960 debate. Um, I'm against Marxism, definitely against feminism, against all waves of feminism. So I'm not

00:04:28.660 one of these people who thought second wave, third wave, fourth wave, or perhaps we're in fifth wave.

00:04:33.100 Now it's not decided. I don't think any of them are good. And, uh, the reason that I don't,

00:04:38.140 I'll incorporate in my arguments, a mixture of forced doctrine, the understanding of the dynamics

00:04:42.340 between men and women, the historical perspective. My, I have a criticism against yours, uh, because

00:04:48.400 you're basing your worldview on standpoint theory essentially. And, uh, I'm going to critique that

00:04:54.240 as well. So overall, um, that's kind of what my worldview is. If you wanted to dive in a little

00:05:01.800 deeper, uh, into that, I would say, uh, right-wing conservative from your perspective,

00:05:07.600 likely bordering on authoritarianism. Um, so I am definitely here to oppress your views.

00:05:16.840 Definitely here to oppress your views. Cruel and unfair treatment, huh? That's right. Definitely here

00:05:20.820 to oppress your views. So, uh, that's kind of my worldview. So with that, I'm actually happy to just

00:05:26.080 kind of dive right into the debate. I think one thing we were, we were going to do first before we

00:05:31.400 get into the open portion of the conversation was just defining a few terms and clearing those up.

00:05:38.080 So because we are discussing feminism, I think just let's jumping off point here, uh, I guess define

00:05:44.760 what that is. Kenzie, do you have a definition for what feminism is? Uh, yeah, the movement to end

00:05:50.060 sexist oppression and sexism. Okay. All right. And how would you define sexism?

00:05:55.440 Uh, biases towards, uh, one specific gender or sex. Okay. Gotcha. And then you also mentioned

00:06:02.680 the term oppression. How do you define oppression? Uh, cruel or cruel and unfair treatment.

00:06:08.260 Mm. Okay. Got it. Andrew, do you agree with these definitions or would you like to give your own?

00:06:13.260 Yeah. So to me, when I say feminism, I mean a movement towards egalitarianism,

00:06:17.440 which is trying to dismantle, dismantle patriarchal systems. Okay. So that's what I'm referencing when I

00:06:23.020 say that. Does that sound reasonable to you? Sure. Okay. So we can kind of agree then to that

00:06:30.780 definition of feminism and then, uh, oppression. Would you just consider that basic power dynamics?

00:06:41.800 Um, yeah, I mean, obviously like cruel or unfair treatment can be through laws, can be through certain,

00:06:46.720 uh, means of production. What view are you viewing for, uh, the accounting of things like,

00:06:53.020 like cruelty, like utilitarian or something like that? I mean, I, I don't like to subscribe

00:06:58.200 necessarily to one position. Uh, it depends, but, uh, utilitarian and, and deontological positions.

00:07:04.960 You have a mixture of them? Yeah. Okay. So like maybe threshold. Sure. Okay. Like threshold

00:07:10.280 deontology, something like that. Okay. I mean, it would, it would depend on the, the topic.

00:07:17.120 Gotcha. Okay. So cruel and unusual punishment.

00:07:23.020 All right. I think we got, I think we got a lot of the semantics. If you don't mind,

00:07:28.260 if we have to stop from time to time to clear up semantics, one thing I really hate is equivocation.

00:07:33.080 The idea that we speak past each other cause we're talking about two different things.

00:07:36.800 Sure. So no, I think it's important to communicate the concept you're trying to convey. Yeah. Yeah. So

00:07:41.480 kind of to start with, I guess, um, I can kind of open up to get this thing moving. So I want to start

00:07:47.900 with the idea of how feminism and Marxism aren't contrary to each other. So I've read a lot of

00:07:54.860 Marxist feminist literature, especially from Dubois. Um, and they do actually seem to be a contradiction.

00:08:02.720 So through the first wave feminism to modernity, uh, you have single-handedly feminism has single-handedly

00:08:10.120 put more women in the hands of rich industrialists than any other single movement, which has ever

00:08:14.480 existed. Rich capitalist industrialists are now basically in charge of women. Uh, women are part

00:08:21.760 of the market workforce. Now they never were as part of the market workforce. They have now accrued

00:08:26.720 almost as much debt in 100 years as men, which is incredible. I mean, it's absolutely incredible.

00:08:31.980 There's only a few, um, one of the, I mean, the, one of the big ones is student loans, but I mean,

00:08:36.980 they're almost on point with everything else. There's very, very few, um, market indicators where they

00:08:42.680 hold significantly less debt than men do. Uh, from my understanding, the only place where women do

00:08:48.080 hold more debt is student loans. Men, men hold more in credit cards and it's true. Well, credit

00:08:53.500 cards, it could be that we don't know because we get it from the credit card reporting agency, but it's

00:08:58.720 like, it's like a 2% margin. So maybe, maybe they hold less, maybe they hold, I'm not sure, but it's

00:09:05.520 not significant. Like none of these thresholds I look at look very significant to me. So what I'm trying

00:09:11.920 to figure out is Marxism, and maybe we can clear up the semantic here too, but Marxism is looking

00:09:18.620 for a stateless society where, yeah, where capitalism is gone, right? So if capitalism is gone,

00:09:25.320 how is feeding millions upon millions of women to the capitalist machine via feminism, a good idea

00:09:33.880 for Marxism? That's just, it makes no sense to me. Well, I mean, if we're talking about first wave

00:09:38.420 feminism, I don't like to necessarily define feminism, um, based on its wave because I think

00:09:43.500 it ignores certain sex within feminism that are outside of that as well as kind of puts it in a

00:09:47.880 Western purview. Uh, but I, I will say obviously there are different, uh, modes of feminism that

00:09:55.120 we've seen in place throughout history. And I would just say this was liberal feminism,

00:09:58.620 which obviously is towards the movement of, uh, upward mobility within capitalism.

00:10:04.320 Yeah. But why would you support that? I wouldn't, I would, I would be against liberal feminism.

00:10:09.740 Then how are you, then how are you a feminist? Well, what kind of feminist are you?

00:10:13.400 Um, Marxist intersectional feminist. Okay. Yeah. Marxist intersectional, but

00:10:16.880 Right. You did rely on first wave, second wave, third wave, fourth wave feminism.

00:10:22.500 Yeah. So there is progression obviously over time. Um, I'm sure you have, uh, I know I've heard you say

00:10:29.120 that with your Christian populism, your plan is 300 years. So obviously there's going to be different

00:10:33.520 steps that you take over time. I think when it comes to, uh, if we're going to talk about liberal

00:10:38.600 feminism and women entering the market, when it comes to economic work is that one of the ways

00:10:44.580 we see that women have faced oppression or marginalization, um, or subjugation, whatever

00:10:49.840 term you want to use, uh, is obviously patriarchy's construction of dependency on men. So, but they

00:10:56.720 were more liberated. So men held the debt, not women. So I would argue immediately, sorry,

00:11:03.520 Oh yeah, no problem. Uh, I would argue immediately that because women now hold so much debt, they're

00:11:09.900 less liberated than they ever have been, at least in this nation. So, um, I would point you to things

00:11:15.900 like before they had the right to vote, the 19th amendment, they were able to pass the 18th

00:11:20.720 amendment. That was literally due to the women's temperance movement and they did not have the

00:11:25.780 right to vote at that time, but they had so much moral political power, uh, that they were

00:11:30.540 able to pass that. So they, they definitely had political power and they had no debt.

00:11:35.160 I don't see how this is. I don't think a lot of people had debt during that time.

00:11:38.960 Yeah. Men had a lot of debt. Men, I mean, they had all the debt. They had all the debt. Um,

00:11:44.500 all of it, like one to 2% maybe for women. Sure. So I, I mean, if we're talking about like,

00:11:50.020 do I think debt is a good thing? No, that would be a critique against capitalism. The critique that

00:11:54.740 with feminism in that specific, uh, instance that you've given is that the only way to get access

00:12:05.100 to, uh, the material goods of life is, is obviously through money. And so when women are able to

00:12:11.660 participate in the market, then they are dependent on men, um, in order to get, to get housing, to get

00:12:18.380 food, to get shelter, so on and so forth. Or, um, you know, they're paid very low wages.

00:12:25.280 And so I think expanding that market then creates more individual opportunities to where you don't

00:12:30.100 have to get married, uh, to where you can have more autonomy in your choice. Yeah, but this is

00:12:34.600 really a weird, this is a very odd position that I don't think stacks up very well. So if the,

00:12:40.480 if the idea is women need to be able to gain more materialism, that is in conflict with Marxism,

00:12:48.060 which is saying that under capitalism that, yeah, but we live in capitalism. Sure. And we did then.

00:12:53.940 Um, I, I understand that. So, so the thing is, it's like, it seems very contradictory to me to say,

00:12:59.540 well, okay, access to materialism. Hold on. Sorry, sorry, sorry. What's, what's going on?

00:13:05.340 Okay. I apologize. No problem. We have a new, no problem. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

00:13:13.300 It just, it, so it's, it's just really bizarre to me when you say women need to be able to access

00:13:18.020 materialism in order to be less oppressed when now women are, they have, by the way, I mean, they,

00:13:25.880 their student loan debt alone is insane. Um, they're, they're now under the yoke of capitalism

00:13:31.380 more significantly than they ever have been because of this accruement of debt. So it seems

00:13:35.760 like you're just feeding them into the system while calling it liberation when rich industrialists

00:13:40.860 owned them then and own them now. So, I mean, it's a more intersectional look at that. Like,

00:13:45.180 I do agree with you that capitalism in itself and like the concept of debt is oppressive. So yes,

00:13:50.720 you are correct when, when you say that assessment, but if we're looking at the intersection, what's

00:13:55.660 the alternative under capitalism for women to be dependent on access to the basic materials?

00:14:01.100 That seems far and away to me to be a way better system if you wanted to actually institute Marxism.

00:14:06.760 So I'll explain why. If it were to use the accelerationist argument, which it sounds like you're trying

00:14:12.800 to do move into accelerationism, um, that what we would just have fascism. Like that's, that's what

00:14:19.240 we usually end up with. I'm sorry. Right wing authoritarianism. Well, I know what you mean by

00:14:23.040 fascism. Can you repeat your point though? Yeah. So if the idea is women need to be moved into

00:14:28.460 the, the rich industrialist market for some reason, because it's more liberating for them to have more

00:14:33.660 materialism, which it seems to be completely the opposite because you're more opportunity for what

00:14:39.180 though, to ingratiate more materialism. Uh, no, I would even just say like the standard means of

00:14:44.800 living. Materialism. I, I don't know, like, well, we need housing, right? Is that materialism? Yeah.

00:14:52.620 Well, yeah, it is like depending on the size of the house. And I mean, so when you say housing,

00:14:58.340 what does that encompass? Like a commie block, like a stone commie block where it's like little tiny.

00:15:04.140 I think we can agree like on what basic necessities humans need in order to function within society.

00:15:10.760 And I would say housing would be definitely. Sure. But how big? Um, I, I think it would depend

00:15:16.960 obviously based on need. Right. So if it's, if it's moving off of need, right. I could, I would say

00:15:23.200 that people need very little space. Okay. Right. Sure. So if this is the case though, introducing women

00:15:29.360 into the capitalist market, right, where now rich industrialists own their labor, which they do

00:15:36.120 in order to give them the right to vote about stuff that's kind of meaningless ultimately towards,

00:15:42.260 towards themselves. What was the point of that for Marxism? That's, it's totally counterintuitive.

00:15:48.820 I'm not saying it's a, it's a movement towards Marxism. I'm saying that that's obviously like a liberal

00:15:54.160 feminist movement, which is upward mobility within capitalism so that you can have access to.

00:15:59.840 So you don't support feminism? I don't support liberal feminism. But that's the only type of

00:16:04.400 feminism we've, we've had here. Um, in terms of certain movements? Sure. I guess it would depend

00:16:10.360 on how you classify certain, uh, movements. But when we're talking about like capitalist critique,

00:16:15.580 those who think that women would find, uh, liberation, um, having the same access to capitalist

00:16:22.700 opportunities as men is, is a liberal feminist idea. But which, well, I don't understand then.

00:16:29.200 So do you support Western feminism or not? Um, I, I don't, if, if you want to label it as that

00:16:36.720 Western feminism. Like, well, okay. So the only feminism that I can point to is either the feminism

00:16:43.740 here, or we can talk about communist feminism, but that was liberalized as well. I disagree. I think

00:16:48.940 we can see like, uh, when the Black Panthers, um, in the sixties and seventies, that's where womanism

00:16:54.940 was born out of, which is also Marxist theory. Yeah, sure. But it was also part of a feminist

00:17:00.940 movement. Right. The sexual liberation was a big part of what was going on in the sixties with Black

00:17:06.360 Panther and female liberation too. So I'm just curious though, first wave feminism, you agree,

00:17:12.460 essentially fed all women into this massive capitalist machine, whereas they did not have

00:17:18.540 to participate in it before. Uh, again, like I, I think that's a really exclusionary idea of first

00:17:25.140 wave feminism because there were also like, uh, feminists who were abolitionists. There were also,

00:17:30.440 uh, feminists who were poor, who wanted, uh, more rights for the working class and those were kind of

00:17:35.400 ignored. So I think if you want to label, uh, first wave feminism as essentially the suffragette

00:17:42.280 movement, um, and the means to enter capitalist, uh, I don't think that's all encompassing of

00:17:49.240 feminism. First wave feminism is definitely responsible for millions upon millions upon

00:17:56.380 millions of women entering into the workforce under rich capitalists, industrialists, single

00:18:01.380 handedly responsible for that. Okay. What else would there, what else would it be that would be

00:18:06.620 responsible for that? Well, I think that's obviously what's at the forefront, but there are other

00:18:11.760 sex of feminism that we're dealing with abolition. We're dealing with, with, they were never,

00:18:16.880 they never had any political power. Okay. I mean, we had the, uh, 1912 Lawrence textile

00:18:23.480 strike, which was about working conditions. Yeah. But feminists have always moved towards

00:18:27.480 working, but this is the problem again, working conditions for what? To capitalism? To work at

00:18:32.960 capitalist plants? I guess I'm not sure like what, what your overarching question is. My overarching

00:18:37.500 point is why would you support first, if you don't support first wave feminism, because it fed millions

00:18:43.120 upon millions of women into the pocket in the pocket of rich industrialists, which it did, and you

00:18:50.020 agree it did. And the second wave did and the third wave, and now even the fourth wave, none of these

00:18:55.860 feminist waves are anti-capitalist. No, I agree. So you don't support any of that though, right? If we're going to

00:19:02.880 have a critique of capitalism, I think we can have ways that we can see how women can be more

00:19:09.620 liberated. I'm not critiquing capitalism. I'm critiquing the view of feminism. Right. But

00:19:14.000 obviously if we're going to talk about capitalism, that those are intertwined. So if we're not going

00:19:18.240 to abolish the system, how can women participate within capitalism that would give them opportunity

00:19:23.820 or more liberation? I agree with you. Liberation is not possible under capitalism. Well, I would argue

00:19:29.360 then that if this is the case, you're looking for more liberation, I would say that they're more

00:19:34.100 liberated when they can't accrue debt. And they couldn't accrue debt. Only the man could accrue

00:19:39.060 debt. And only the man who was married could accrue debt. Well, if you hold that philosophy, then are

00:19:42.960 men oppressed? Yes. Okay. Yes, men are very oppressed. Okay, then I guess we don't disagree. So I got to ask,

00:19:49.820 I got to ask, I wouldn't say for the same reasons you would, but the question becomes,

00:19:54.940 is it the case that you think that women are more or less oppressed by capitalism now than they were

00:20:01.760 when they were dependent on their husbands? Um, well, obviously capitalism has taken different form.

00:20:09.320 So it would depend on essentially what metric we're evaluating. They have more access to education,

00:20:14.960 which I would see would be less oppressive. Obviously the stressors of wealth. It's more oppressive.

00:20:20.480 Education's oppressive. Yeah, it's way more oppressive to women. To be educated?

00:20:23.600 What, what's the number, what's the only type of debt women have that outnumbers men?

00:20:27.480 I get it. That's just because of capitalism.

00:20:29.240 What's the only type? It's student loans. We already agree.

00:20:32.060 So, so the idea of the education, right? Which is mostly the, it's not like it's,

00:20:38.760 most of these are STEM degrees. They're not.

00:20:40.240 I mean, if education were free, would you say that they're being oppressed?

00:20:43.360 Education is free up until college age.

00:20:45.720 I know. I'm just asking, are we talking about the idea of education itself or the fact that

00:20:50.460 it's so expensive? No, we're talking about liberation from oppression. And so what I'm

00:20:55.520 arguing to you is that. Correct. So when you say education is oppressive,

00:20:58.520 is that because under capitalism of the cost that obviously debt is burdensome or just a woman being

00:21:05.380 educated is oppressive? No, I would say that the accruements of student debt, mostly being in the

00:21:13.100 hands of women has done more to oppress them than if they had not gone to college in the first place.

00:21:18.640 Then if that, if that had been barred from them. But that's not my question.

00:21:22.380 What? Okay. But what's your question then?

00:21:24.620 My question is you're not saying education is oppressive. You're saying either going into debt

00:21:29.740 or the society making a profit off education obviously puts burdens on the person who's

00:21:36.580 taking loans out. Yes.

00:21:38.080 We don't disagree with that. Yes. I don't disagree.

00:21:39.940 But why are we selecting for that then? What do you mean?

00:21:42.300 Well, I mean, you say that women need to be educated. Institutions are going to require

00:21:46.680 capital in order to educate. So, right. So if, again, we're going to, um, education has definitely

00:21:55.280 benefited women in terms of having the equal access to capitalism, to, to certain aspects

00:22:03.800 of society, uh, that would give them more opportunity and, uh, more identity. It has literally led them

00:22:10.960 to being pawns in capitalism. Yep. Just like men. Yeah. So the thing is, it's like, how is that,

00:22:17.260 but how is that less of, or more or less oppressive? It's way more oppressive. So I, this is what I

00:22:23.340 don't get. I would say choice and individuality is like, so if we're talking about certain social

00:22:27.100 ideas, let's walk through it logically. Right. So we start with women can accrue no debt. Only their

00:22:32.600 husbands can accrue debt. That's it. Only the husbands were able to accrue debt, but then they're

00:22:37.960 educated, correct? No, they can still be educated. How? They would go to school. Where? Well, they

00:22:45.120 had public school was available. By the way, women have always done better in public school. And then

00:22:48.840 college was also available to them. Most of your feminist, first wave feminist leaders went to

00:22:52.760 school. They went to college. Right. But college was also free then. No, it wasn't free. Yeah, it was.

00:22:57.740 Where? In the United States. Where? Like what specific college? I think, uh, Berkeley was free up

00:23:04.000 until the sixties. Until, uh, okay. So when you're talking about college fees,

00:23:09.660 it's important to understand that if it is the case that you want everybody to do a thing,

00:23:14.820 you're going to have to have a lot of that thing for them to be able to do it. So when you're talking

00:23:18.400 about education specifically, it used to be about rewarding the best and brightest. It is not about

00:23:22.520 rewarding the best and brightest now. There's lots and lots and lots of people who go and get a college

00:23:26.460 degree and it's the equivalent of like a 10th grade education, 9th grade education. Okay. So if

00:23:32.000 that's the case, right, all we're doing really is just lowering the standard anyway, right? Lowering

00:23:37.100 the standard and then telling women that they need to go and use their birthing years in college,

00:23:41.140 which makes no sense to me. It's very silly. You take the reproductive years, you say, go spend the

00:23:46.420 reproductive years in school so that you can be part of this capitalist machine. That's very strange

00:23:52.560 to me that that's your advocation as a Marxist feminist. Um, I mean, obviously if we're talking

00:23:57.980 about the ideal situation, then women would have access to education without having to go into debt.

00:24:05.080 That's not, well, okay. How? What do you mean how? Yeah. How, so we should pay for, for everybody's

00:24:12.560 college? Well, obviously if we're going to live under a capitalist society, like this at the center

00:24:18.400 of that is going to be profit. So I just think that's an ineffective way to organize society

00:24:26.920 because then it's obviously putting profit over people. So now we've, this is circular now. So we

00:24:32.160 start with capitalism's bad, liberate women so they can participate in capitalism. Capitalism's bad,

00:24:38.760 liberate women so that they can become part of the capitalist machine. No. So if we're going to talk

00:24:42.660 about how women can have more opportunity and individuality over cap in capitalism, that's one

00:24:48.080 argument. And then talking about how women can be fully liberated from the constraints of capitalism

00:24:54.800 is a different argument. Well, okay. Let's talk, if you want to dice them up, I'm willing to like

00:25:01.060 dice arguments up as small as you want to make them or as large as you want to make them. So we can go as

00:25:05.360 granular as you want. Well, I'm just saying it's two different lanes and it seems you can be combining it

00:25:09.940 as one. Okay. But what's the goal of Marxism? Stateless society, right? Yeah. How is, I still

00:25:16.280 understand how throwing women into the big capitalist machine as a form of liberation helps get us to

00:25:23.800 that. It doesn't. Then why would you say, I still, then I still am confused why you support those

00:25:29.340 things. Um, I mean, I don't support necessarily like what you're specifically saying. If, if I had my,

00:25:35.980 like how do we transition from capitalism to communism is, is a different, uh, argument than

00:25:43.660 how can women, uh, suffer less oppression under capitalism. Yeah. But if you don't agree with

00:25:48.840 those things and first wave feminism was about liberation to participate in capitalism, then you

00:25:54.120 don't support first wave feminism. I, again, I don't like classifying feminism in terms of those waves

00:25:59.080 because it just reduces it down to the singular idea where there are multiple sex of ideas. So yes,

00:26:04.420 if you want me to say, I don't agree. Okay. What are the prominent ideas then? Sure. Yeah. The

00:26:08.720 prominent ideas were definitely, I don't agree. Yeah. So then, so then I don't know that you're a

00:26:14.360 feminist at all, just a Marxist. Well, I mean, have you heard of TERFs? Yeah. Uh, would you say that's

00:26:20.620 a form of feminism? It's very traditional form of feminism. Yeah. I'm not a TERF. So does that mean

00:26:24.800 I'm not a feminist? I, I feel this is like no true Scotsman fallacy. No. I, well, I have to say

00:26:30.880 there are prominent sex of feminism, right? Yeah. You have radical feminism, liberal feminism,

00:26:37.900 intersectional Marx, Marxist. Yeah. So I'm saying there are certain. But all of them are basing it

00:26:42.280 around the liberation of women. Just the different ideas around the basis of liberation of women.

00:26:48.360 Just like there's capitalism. Yeah. Which I'm sure we could define and say there's different functions

00:26:52.180 of capitalism. Yeah. So first wave feminism definitely wanted to liberate women so that they

00:26:57.360 could have their own assets and go to work. Correct. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about

00:27:02.020 that. I, I, I mean, go to work like women have always worked, especially poor and, uh, women of

00:27:09.240 color. So I think like going to work is kind of, uh, maybe like a white centered notion. Uh, I, I will

00:27:15.480 acknowledge that I think in the early 1900s, we had about 20% of women in the workforce. And then by

00:27:21.120 like 1950, I think it was close to 50. Um, especially at the post-World War II people who

00:27:27.140 were staying in the workforce. Sure. Exactly. But the thing is, it depends on who you're counting as

00:27:31.040 well. Definitely first wave feminism was responsible for this. So the thing is, is I, I guess

00:27:36.500 when you're talking about Marxist feminism specifically, you would have to kind of hate

00:27:42.220 first wave feminism because it did work. In a lot of notions I do, because I do think it ignored the

00:27:47.000 material conditions of, uh, poor women, women of color. So yeah, I don't disagree. Okay. Just I'm

00:27:52.960 sure you, you support capitalism, right? Do you like social democracy? Uh, well, I'm not sure that

00:27:59.040 that's contingent on capitalism. That is a capitalist, uh, mode, just like a laissez-faire, uh, free market

00:28:05.840 would be. There's different ways that capitalism can be structured and you can agree with one. Yeah,

00:28:10.000 but capitalism is an economic system. It's not as much of a political theory as Marxism. I'm just

00:28:15.320 showing how an idea can have different theory behind it. Yeah. I'm not, but I'm not disputing

00:28:19.860 that. I'm talking about the prominence of the ideas. Sure. I guess if I must not have understood,

00:28:25.020 no, I don't agree with some of the, um, modes that, uh, liberal feminism or first wave feminism,

00:28:32.080 as you've called it, have used. So then wouldn't you agree with me then that it actually would have

00:28:36.780 been more liberating for women to not have participated in first wave feminism, but instead relied on their

00:28:43.780 husbands, wouldn't that have actually been more liberating than sacrificing them to the

00:28:48.120 sacrificial lamb of capitalism? Which is worse. I don't know. Um, I, I, there, there's just so

00:28:59.080 many metrics that you can evaluate. Um, well, this is the metric we're evaluating. So the metric we're

00:29:04.820 evaluating is my argument is if women are dependent on their husbands and accrue no debt, only the husband

00:29:10.740 can accrue debt, but women can still own assets, which they could, and they can still own property,

00:29:15.140 which they could, even if they were married. Right. But you're forcing a woman to link arms

00:29:19.000 with a man. So if she's single, does she have access to these things? If she's a lesbian, does she have

00:29:24.040 these things? I think they still, yes, of course. How would you have these things? How would they not

00:29:29.480 have them? They were able to own property, even unmarried. Um, that's always been the history of the

00:29:35.080 United States. Right. But obviously then you would need to be in the workforce, correct? Cause you

00:29:38.680 need to purchase it. No, you wouldn't need to purchase it. Oftentimes your, your father would

00:29:42.960 give it to you. Oh, so just through again, like generational wealth, which, which by the way,

00:29:48.780 first wave feminism destroyed a lot of that too, a lot of cross generational wealth, but women can own

00:29:54.160 property. Sure. Um, I mean, I, I would say like, what, why would I have to pick one? Uh, because your

00:30:03.660 choice is either you go to work, right? You're, you either want equality or you don't want equality.

00:30:10.060 So if the idea is I want equality and that's why I think it would be more beneficial for women not

00:30:14.620 to be dependent on men and to have more liberty. Then to work within the capitalist system?

00:30:20.860 Uh, yes. Why? Because they would have more control, uh, autonomy and identity.

00:30:27.320 They don't seem to have more control over either of the, or any of those things. Example,

00:30:31.840 uh, the identity of woman now in modernity is in question, period. What do you mean?

00:30:38.260 What is a woman? Oh, we're going there now. Well, you just said women would have more identity

00:30:43.720 because. Yeah. Identity in terms of if you're going to be dependent on, um, a husband, then your,

00:30:51.760 your labor, uh, is predetermined for you. Your identity in terms of being a wife and mother is

00:30:57.640 predetermined for you. Yeah. But the beneficiaries of that is that your recruitment of debt,

00:31:01.840 is also non-existent. And so you can never be a slave to capitalism.

00:31:05.120 It's not really non-existent because your husband has it as well. So, I mean, there is still

00:31:08.180 capitalistic threat. You were not ever responsible for your husband's debt.

00:31:11.680 I'm, but you still suffer the outcomes if it doesn't work out. Right. Yeah. But you suffer

00:31:16.960 the outcomes of that now. Right. But you would have more control and autonomy, right? You know,

00:31:21.320 it's either like you're the captain of your own seeking ship or you're, you're just kind of a

00:31:25.500 passenger on the Titanic. Like you use these words, these kinds of buzzwords, right? Uh,

00:31:29.960 you say they have more autonomy. How do women have more autonomy?

00:31:33.240 Self-determination through choice. What choices? Which ones? Uh, essentially how they want to

00:31:40.360 experience their life. Do they want to get married? Do they want to have children?

00:31:43.240 They had the option to do that before they didn't have to get married. Most of the time,

00:31:47.080 women who didn't get married stayed at home with their parents. By the way, right now,

00:31:50.400 most women who don't get married, they often stay at home with their parents. Not a lot has changed in

00:31:55.320 that department. I mean, uh, I, I haven't read any statistics that women who don't get married

00:31:59.480 just stay home with their parents. Yes. It's often the case that women who do not get married

00:32:04.680 stay at home with their parents. Uh, yeah, it's often true with men too. And it was often true

00:32:09.720 with men then. I think single women home purchases are starting to outpace men. It's true. Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:14.560 But it is often the case. So it seems that they're getting their own, they're getting their own house.

00:32:17.880 Sometimes, sometimes, but you got to remember now children are staying at home with their parents

00:32:24.020 longer than, longer than ever. Sure. So obviously like the conditions that comes to capitalism now

00:32:28.880 is different than it was, you know, in the 1900s. Yeah. So I mean, the thing is, is that I don't see

00:32:33.760 how women actually have any more of these things. I don't see how they have any more autonomy.

00:32:37.720 I don't see how they have any more actual choice. It just seems like an illusion of choice.

00:32:44.040 Um, I would agree with you. There is some oppression within that choice,

00:32:47.620 but I do think the choice is more. Okay. And it's worth it to have this limited

00:32:52.500 amount of autonomy in order to grind yourself in a capitalist system. Like if you were to ask

00:32:56.980 the average woman, if you were to go back in time, hypothetically, and you were to sit down

00:33:02.160 with first wave feminist, okay. Uh, who couldn't seem to get first wave feminism passed any other

00:33:08.960 way than an amendment because women were voting it down all over the place. The question becomes,

00:33:13.640 if you ask them, if we fast forwarded this to a 100 years, I just want to let you know that your

00:33:19.740 children will be living at home with you until they're 25. Uh, you will be, you will have access

00:33:24.920 to college, but you'll have crushing debt and chances are your marriage is going to fail.

00:33:29.780 Chances are really good that your marriage is going to fail over 50% perhaps that your marriage

00:33:34.420 is going to fail. Um, but you'll have a little tiny bit more autonomy, but I won't even be able

00:33:40.560 to exactly tell you how you have more of it. Do you think that they would go for that deal?

00:33:45.000 Or if you said, hang on, or if you said to them, if you don't do this, your husbands will accrue all

00:33:50.940 debt. You'll never have to worry about it again. And you can still make moral claims and they'll be

00:33:55.600 super effective just like the temperance movement was because now you're not political pawns.

00:34:01.000 Um, I mean, I think you're kind of constructing the options in a way that would be beneficial to,

00:34:10.020 to a specific narrative. Um, I think I have cleared how you have autonomy. Like would you

00:34:16.440 want men to be dependent on women in and have women be the predominant mode of production under

00:34:21.400 capitalism? I don't think it's possible. But would you want that? Well, I couldn't want a thing. I

00:34:26.240 don't think it's possible. Why? Because it's not possible. Well, I mean, why is it not possible?

00:34:31.560 It's not possible because women are not capable of doing the same types of things that men are

00:34:35.260 capable of doing. Such as? Inside of society enforcement. Enforcement? Mm-hmm. So like police

00:34:41.440 and? Not military. Military? Mm-hmm. Military, policing, special services. I don't think men really are

00:34:49.020 capable of that. I mean, that men have gone and fought global wars time and time again and won.

00:34:55.140 Yeah. And what outcomes do they have? They win the war.

00:34:58.240 Uh, they, they suffer severe PSD. They have a hard time integrating into society. I mean,

00:35:04.640 that doesn't seem like a natural condition for, for men to, to be subjected to. There can be

00:35:09.460 symptoms of violence, but remember not everybody gets PTSD, even combat veterans. A lot of them don't

00:35:15.300 have PTSD. Some get PTSD. Right. But not only that, that's a coping mechanism. It's going to be

00:35:20.540 individualistic. Men are definitely capable of extreme. But it is an outcome of being exposed to

00:35:25.980 extreme violence. For some people. I could say that about, about women. Yeah, you can,

00:35:30.220 but the problem when it comes down to enforcement is that women can't do enforcement. What do you

00:35:34.100 mean? So I'll give you the, um, the easy hypothetical. Okay. If all men tomorrow decide that women in

00:35:41.820 the United States are slaves, are women in the United States slaves? Um, no. No. No. Why wouldn't

00:35:51.560 they be? I think it would be a, I mean, how could, how could women, how could women stop it?

00:35:57.360 I mean, it would just depend essentially on, um, like access to resources. Yeah. Men have the

00:36:04.100 access to all the resources because they made you slaves. Well, you're like, that's how women could

00:36:10.440 like stop it. It would just be a fight over resources. How come women can't stop it in Islamic

00:36:15.740 nations? And when they just go, okay, you're all slaves. Well, obviously in Islamic nations,

00:36:20.120 they don't have access to specific resources. Nobody has access to resources. If men don't,

00:36:26.040 don't allow access to those resources, nobody, because men have a monopoly on force. That's

00:36:31.320 feminist theory. Feminists understand that even Marxist feminists know this, that men have a

00:36:35.960 monopoly on force. So in other words, if men collectively. Under patriarchy, I agree. No,

00:36:40.680 under any artarchy, they're going to need to have men as their monopoly on force. I'll give you an

00:36:45.780 example. If tomorrow, uh, men decided to enslave all women, all women would be enslaved. However,

00:36:52.660 if tomorrow all women decided to enslave all men, they do not have the force doctrine and requisite

00:36:58.380 necessary to do so. They could not do it. They just couldn't do it. Within, within any context.

00:37:04.120 No. So if women had access to all the drones, if women had access to all the water supply, if women

00:37:11.060 had access, sorry, if women had access to, I mean, women can have the capacity to repair. I don't

00:37:16.940 understand. Like they, okay. So here's what I would say. Let's, let's do this experiment this way.

00:37:24.100 If women had access to all of the firearms on earth that exist, okay. And every weapon which exists

00:37:31.220 and they have access to all of that, they still don't have the requisite brute force that would

00:37:36.060 be necessary to keep men under control. They just wouldn't, they wouldn't be possible to do long

00:37:41.800 term. What do you mean by, what do you mean like by brute force that they just won't be able to pull

00:37:47.160 the trigger? No, that men are much, much, much stronger. And that guns, guns are only an equalizer

00:37:52.100 until men take your guns. Right. And obviously they would have to get close enough, but I mean,

00:37:56.200 I don't care how strong you are. If you don't have water and food, what are you going to do?

00:37:59.480 Simple then. Do you think that if you, if you were the head of a prison, would you rather have

00:38:04.240 all male or all female guards? If you were dealing with dangerous prisoners, even if both had access

00:38:09.700 to guns? Um, I mean, I guess it would depend what the, what the goal is. I think keep the prisoners

00:38:16.980 who are dangerous under control. I mean, I think women can make really great police officers because

00:38:21.800 they are less likely to use excessive force. They're more likely to deescalate where men are more likely

00:38:28.340 to escalate, more likely to get disarmed, more likely to get beaten up, more likely to accidentally

00:38:33.560 shoot a suspect. They're more likely to do all sorts of things to the contrary as well.

00:38:37.720 But there's also way fewer females who are in the police force because it can't meet the minimum

00:38:42.880 requirements, which are necessary to be a cop. They can't meet the necessary minimum physical

00:38:48.540 requirements. Same thing in the military. They can't meet the necessary minimum physical requirements

00:38:52.460 to be in the infantry. Most women can't do it. So men have a monopoly on force. And because of force

00:38:57.660 doctrine, this ends up coming down to this idea. If it is the case, you say that women can do anything

00:39:04.840 that men can do. I counter this by saying they cannot, they cannot do enforcement. This is uniquely

00:39:09.980 a male thing. There are some women who can be introduced, who can meet these standards, but on

00:39:15.080 average they can't. Well, I think the, you know, if, um, we're like to kind of bring it to an analogy,

00:39:21.340 um, you know, if the, the fence is six feet tall and most women are five, eight, then yeah,

00:39:28.800 of course they're not going to be able to meet that standard. So is the standard just specific to

00:39:33.420 certain male criteria that, well, it would be the criteria of you need to handle a male.

00:39:39.840 So if you're a female police officer, you need to be able to handle a male, right?

00:39:42.980 Um, yeah, but obviously like you have tools to aid in that. That's what I'm saying. Like,

00:39:50.020 just because women aren't meeting these criteria, it doesn't mean that. Do you have to get close

00:39:52.520 to a male when you're a police officer is a female in order to put like handcuffs on them,

00:39:56.480 stuff like that? Yeah. But you have like pepper spray and stun guns. Yeah. And routinely women

00:40:01.220 get disarmed and they're routinely overpowered by suspects. Routinely happens often. And men often

00:40:09.060 use excessive force and then they're sued. Yeah. And then people die. When you say men use excessive

00:40:14.480 force, you're just demonstrating my point that men have a monopoly on force. Yes. Maybe it's

00:40:19.420 excessive, but they're capable of using it. No, no, no. They're just better at using force

00:40:25.020 because they're much stronger. They're much stronger. They have much denser bones. So they're

00:40:28.720 much more capable. I mean, I don't disagree with that. The average male is, is stronger. Sure.

00:40:33.900 Well, significantly stronger. It's not, uh, it's not an insignificant amount between

00:40:38.700 the average male and average female. Now I want this point to drive home because

00:40:41.900 it's often stated like, oh yeah, there's a small marginal difference. No, it's a significant

00:40:46.920 difference. 60, 70% in many cases. Okay. Much, much, much stronger. This being the case,

00:40:53.360 men have the complete monopoly on force doctrine because they're much, much, much stronger. Just

00:40:59.060 raw brute force, which if you reduce, or if you reduce rights, you reduce society, reduce

00:41:05.700 everything to its raw principle, it's going to be brute force. I want to make you do thing.

00:41:11.920 I always have this. I mean, I don't like agree because with violence, there can definitely come

00:41:16.820 consequences that are not desirable, um, in terms of the outcome. Like if men wanted women to be

00:41:24.020 slaves, you know, who determines if the species goes on? Men. Women? No, men, if you were slaves.

00:41:31.520 How? The same way they did in Rome. They impregnated their slaves.

00:41:37.360 Well, I mean, but women could just commit suicide. Yeah. Why didn't they in Rome?

00:41:41.880 Well, that, wouldn't that just be, um, black swan fallacy just because there's that one example

00:41:46.180 where they did. Oh no, no, no, no. I think to a specific degree. Yeah. We'll give you every

00:41:49.280 example. They didn't do it under Genghis Khan. They didn't do it in Rome. Yeah. It would just be,

00:41:52.380 again, a black swan fallacy. So, but I mean, that's not a black swan fallacy by the way,

00:41:56.620 but that. How would it not be? You, we just haven't seen it. So therefore it can't, it can't

00:42:01.060 happen. Okay. So first of all, what I'm saying is I'm pointing to a historic standard and saying

00:42:06.180 the historic standard. And I asked you a question, I didn't make a propositional statement. So that's

00:42:11.200 why it can't be fallacious. But I would say that ultimately it does come down to women. If she

00:42:17.080 doesn't want to sustain pregnancy and is a slave, she does obviously have the opportunity to kill

00:42:21.180 herself. Yes. But you can't, you can't have society continue. I will say that. So I'll grant this.

00:42:26.900 It is logically possible that all women who are enslaved can off themselves, not disputing that.

00:42:32.540 Right. However, it's also logically possible they do not, right? Sure. Okay. Which one do you

00:42:36.940 think is more likely then? I mean, it would depend on, it would depend on so many different conditions.

00:42:41.880 Okay. Well then that's fair. So give me a single condition in which the female slaves of all of

00:42:47.460 history have ever collectively off themselves in order to prevent their own slavery.

00:42:51.620 Well, it wouldn't be to prevent their own slavery. It would be essentially to, to stop

00:42:56.280 the, um, you know, the next generation. And even if you do have. That would be preventing

00:43:00.480 slavery. Sure. And even if you do have women who, um, are enslaved, um. Can you give me an

00:43:06.240 example of a single? No, I can't. Because there's, there isn't, there isn't any, there's no

00:43:10.100 example. But I'm sure you wouldn't say that that's moral. Moral. That's what men ought to

00:43:14.700 do. Well, I believe in objective morality. I can, I'll make ought claims based on an unchanging

00:43:21.840 standard, but you're a moral relativist. You, you can't be like, you can't do that. It's

00:43:26.260 relative. It's totally relative. So is one set of morals of more value than another set

00:43:32.700 of morals? Um, I think morale, like there are moral facts, if that's what you're asking

00:43:37.940 me. No, that's not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you if one set of moral particulars

00:43:42.560 has more value than another set of moral particulars. Um, I'm not sure how to answer.

00:43:50.300 Well, I would just need to know if, so, okay. For instance, we have a one society over here

00:43:56.800 that murders women and a society over here that does not murder women. Okay. Okay. Can

00:44:02.060 you point to something objective that makes the society murdering women? There's, there's

00:44:06.640 some like moral claim that you can make, which is objective for why that's wrong. Well, I

00:44:11.900 mean murder by definition is wrong. No, why, why would it, it's the unjustified. Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:20.680 Yeah. Unjustified doesn't mean immoral. Well, it means wrong. If it's not just, then it's

00:44:26.780 unjust, which would be wrong. Okay. We'll rephrase that. They set the conditionals for something

00:44:32.140 you would consider to be murder and say it isn't. It's the justified killing of this group

00:44:38.100 of people here. You consider it murder. What makes their moral facts wrong? Um, I mean,

00:44:45.260 obviously it would depend on, on reason and context. So you can, with reason and context

00:44:52.420 determine which moral facts are correct? Um, I think you can have certain observations when

00:44:58.800 it comes to the outcomes. Um, I mean, that would be consequentialism. I think there can be

00:45:05.100 moral facts, moral facts in terms of there are things that are always wrong, regardless

00:45:08.880 of context. Like? Uh, like rape. Why would that always be wrong? Uh, well, rape would always

00:45:19.260 be wrong. Grape. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, that was right. Yeah. Uh, grape would always be wrong

00:45:23.580 because it would, uh, because of the harm that it causes. Yeah. Why is harm wrong? Uh, because

00:45:29.340 harm is, I mean, again, I would say, uh, harm by definition is wrong, uh, because it is an

00:45:37.000 undesirable outcome within our subjective experience. Okay. So are all undesirable outcomes

00:45:41.940 immoral? No. Okay. Well then that, then you just contradicted your position. Um, sure.

00:45:52.480 So then you can't point to a set of particulars, which are, I think then again, that would be kind

00:45:58.460 of, um, you know, based on obviously the scale of harm. I think if there's a certain degree

00:46:05.420 of harm. It wouldn't matter. It's a, if, if it is the case that nothing, which is against

00:46:10.460 your subjective experience that you consider harmful, uh, is bad except by your own experience,

00:46:16.820 then you've just reached back to relativism. Like, yeah, you're never going to get past relativism.

00:46:22.260 So I don't really know how you can make the claim that this is worse than that, but if you

00:46:26.720 do, right, I'm just willing to grant that you have a principle and we'll adhere to the principle for

00:46:30.980 the purpose of the debate. So we don't bog it down with relativism versus non-relativism. Okay.

00:46:35.600 We'll kind of just give you the out there because there's no reason to, to stay on it. But back to

00:46:40.080 this idea of, of, um, let's see, right before that, when we were, we were diving into force and

00:46:49.880 force doctrine. Yeah. So I would say that might makes, not saying right, I'm not going to make the

00:46:55.280 claim that it makes right, but it does make. And so I think that force doctrine is the necessary

00:47:00.660 requisite for rights. It's the necessary requisite to have a nation. It's the necessary requisite to

00:47:05.700 have anything. It's force. Um, I, I disagree because we could, um, obviously agree on rights

00:47:11.480 and have a, uh, cooperative nature. I agree. We could agree on rights. And then if somebody violates

00:47:17.980 rights, what do we use? Um, I, I mean, I would be more towards restorative justice, uh, as well

00:47:27.500 as obviously centering the harm that the victim causes, but those require force. Um, I, I can

00:47:36.180 agree to some extent, but I don't think necessarily if rights can do, if rights violations happen,

00:47:41.260 that what the punishment or what the outcomes is, is what one would deem justice. I would say

00:47:46.740 the conditions to which society is to prevent harm would be the ultimate goal. That would require

00:47:54.600 force. How? Because if somebody violates any of your principles or any of your rights,

00:48:01.860 how, how do you get them to not do that? Well, obviously, I think rights violations happen for

00:48:09.200 specific reasons within society. Like if, if you were to say, if I were, you were to say that you

00:48:14.720 violated my rights by coming in my house and stealing all my stuff, then, um, if we're in

00:48:20.060 a society of capitalism to where people are subjected to, to poverty and need access to

00:48:24.820 material goods. Okay. Let's say we have communism. Communism can't exist without force. It's impossible.

00:48:31.480 Well, that, but that's again, like an example of how we would prevent rights violations,

00:48:37.620 because I would say like, if the right is violated, did you really have it to begin with?

00:48:42.300 Yeah. But you're baking into your hypothetical here. Oh, you violated my right. And now we have

00:48:48.100 done, and you did it based on some conditional of, um, some externality that drove you to this.

00:48:56.220 Sure. Right. Forget that. Right. They just fucking want to, they just want to.

00:49:02.880 I think that's just a lazy presupposition that people just want to do things.

00:49:08.080 Yeah. To just want to cause harm. Psychopaths don't exist. So it's your past, narcissists,

00:49:13.880 these people don't exist or they do exist. But again, we're talking about what conditions they

00:49:18.500 exist under and those are very rare. Okay. I'll even grant that it's rare. Yeah. I'll even grant

00:49:23.620 that it's rare. Can you, but I don't think people are born psychopaths or sociopaths. Again,

00:49:27.760 I would say those are environmental conditions. Okay. Like what? Nourishment?

00:49:32.920 Nourishment? Uh, well, no, your brain is a, is a social organ. And so it responds to your

00:49:38.940 environment. I think they did a study where they analyzed, I forget how many, uh, serial killers

00:49:44.700 brains, but, um, or serial and alivers, uh, but they all had a severe damage to the orbital

00:49:51.660 region. Um, well, I'd like to take a look at the, the data there, but it was, it was there

00:49:58.600 a meta-analysis done on it? Um, I can't remember if it was a meta-analysis. I want

00:50:02.960 to say it was, but I can't remember. Okay. Well, in any case, it doesn't really

00:50:06.780 matter. Ultimately, all, it doesn't matter what society you live in, it's going to, there's

00:50:11.460 going to be a prerequisite requirement for a force, no matter what. It doesn't matter

00:50:15.700 how, like, could you even give me a society in which that would not be the case?

00:50:19.300 Um, I mean, it's hard to conceptualize in terms of, I think if we had a society based

00:50:27.660 on technology, um, what do you mean by force? Are we just talking about like, if you, if

00:50:33.040 you have a society in which people have any sort of, uh, if you have any sort of laws or

00:50:38.240 you have any sort of rights at all, then the only thing, yeah, the only thing which would

00:50:46.600 create a prevention of the violation of said thing by a person would be the requirement

00:50:52.680 of force. So if I want. I mean, I don't know how force prevents rights violations necessarily

00:50:59.100 in. It's the only thing that prevents rights violations. Well, if you're saying men have

00:51:04.160 a monopoly on force and that's instilled within patriarchy, then why do rights violations

00:51:07.740 occur? Well, no, that doesn't even follow. It would just follow that men are the only ones

00:51:12.780 who could stop rights violations. I mean, at least in mass. Um, okay. Yeah. That's, that's

00:51:21.780 the only thing that would follow from that. It's like men are the ones in mass who would

00:51:25.220 stop rights violations, which is, which is what exactly what happens right now. They are

00:51:29.720 the ones in mass who stop rights violations. Um, I, I think when we, when we talk about that

00:51:35.480 too, like obviously, um, the entity that is in control of forces also can commit rights

00:51:42.840 violations. Sure. So, um, don't disagree at all. Okay. Totally agree. So I, I don't think

00:51:49.740 that the way to society and essentially to establish rights is necessarily through force.

00:51:55.540 The only way it can be, well, what happens if you violate somebody's right then? Um, I mean,

00:52:02.480 what do you mean what happens? Well, how do you stop them from doing that? Well, they

00:52:07.260 already did it. What do you mean? How do you stop them? Well, okay. So I want to take over

00:52:11.980 your country, right? Are you, are you just going to let me walk in and do that or? Well, I mean,

00:52:16.700 why? And, and again, like, do you really have like the modes of production and the materials?

00:52:22.000 Because I feel like it. I just don't think people wake up and just say, I feel like doing

00:52:25.900 this. Do you feel like rapists wake up and feel like graping? Wake up and feel like

00:52:31.440 graping. Uh, like they say today is the day. No, no, no, no. So again, I'm trying to, I'm

00:52:41.000 trying, I'm actually really confused now. I think there are instances. Sure. Where grape

00:52:45.720 can be premeditated. If we didn't enforce our laws, are you saying people would break them more

00:52:50.300 or less? If we didn't enforce our laws? Would people break them more or less? I think it would

00:52:54.940 depend on the law. Any law. I mean, do you murder, do you not murder or I'm sorry, do you not

00:53:00.620 murder because it's illegal? There's probably a lot of people that I'd like to say if it

00:53:05.400 looks legal. I'm just asking. Murder's fine, by the way. Oh, okay. So like, um, I, you and

00:53:11.080 I would have a, do you not murder because it's illegal? You and I would have a distinction,

00:53:15.040 um, in what we would consider murder to be, right? You and I would have a distinction in

00:53:21.180 that. What do you mean? So like, well, I thought we agreed it's unjust killing. Yeah. But what

00:53:25.760 we consider justified to be would be different. Okay. So that would be where we would have

00:53:30.080 a semantic distinction there. Right. So, uh, for instance, if somebody was, so hang on,

00:53:35.460 I'll explain. So like, someone is stealing property. Are you entitled to kill them?

00:53:41.240 Um, I mean, per the law, sure. No, but do you think morally? Oh, morally? Yeah. Um,

00:53:48.480 like somebody's taken off with your TV. Oh no. Yeah. See, I think dead. Right. So you see,

00:53:53.180 we have a distinction in justification. Sure. So you think that that's, that's

00:53:57.180 murder. I think, ah, no, it's not. So to answer your question. Yeah. If the law

00:54:01.760 wasn't there to say you can't shoot him if he's stealing your TV. So you would

00:54:05.140 shoot someone who was stealing your TV. Yeah. In the face. In the face. Multiple

00:54:10.680 times. Multiple times. Yes. Yes. That's a, well, the newsy, it's a crazy way, place

00:54:15.640 to plant your flag. Yeah. Or, you know, whatever was convenient. Yeah. What, what's

00:54:21.180 wrong with that? Um, I, I would say that the loss of their life certainly outweighs

00:54:31.780 your, your TV. Uh, well, I mean, if the TV didn't like outweigh their ability to run,

00:54:38.280 I probably would have missed. Right. But the thing is, is you know what else would have

00:54:41.480 prevented this? Them not stealing my TV. That's true. Is the, is the context here? This

00:54:47.280 is a home invasion. Yeah. Like it's in your house. Yeah. Well, no, I think, I think

00:54:51.740 you can, I think you have the ability to defend your property. Yeah. And that your

00:54:56.240 property, your property, anything that's within the domain of on your physical

00:55:00.920 property, right. Meaning property you own. I consider that all to be the French word

00:55:05.540 curtilage and anything within the viewpoint of curtilage is a violation of your

00:55:11.500 actual property and therefore rights violation. You have every right to put that person down

00:55:17.220 so that you don't encourage additional people to do it. So in many ways, I think you're defending,

00:55:23.300 you're defending, uh, not just yourself, but everybody around you. If more people took that

00:55:29.620 stance. Um, I think we would, I think like the better solution would be to recognize why

00:55:35.400 someone's stealing your TV. Okay. Yeah. So, but how does that prevent them from doing it? So like,

00:55:42.440 okay, we're, we're investigating it now, by the way, we've been investigating why people steal shit

00:55:46.880 for about a hundred years. And you know what? We haven't really prevented people from stealing

00:55:52.000 shit, but I'll just grant you that we could scarcity though. I'll just grant you that we could

00:55:57.580 we know, no people steal even when there's no scarcity. Bernie made off, took off with how many

00:56:02.280 people's pensions. There was no scarcity. Well, I think capitalism creates scarcity, even when

00:56:06.220 there's abundance that, you know, it's never enough. That sounds like a cope. So like Bernie

00:56:10.420 made off who had everything just needed more. Uh, yeah. Like how many rich people have clearly

00:56:16.660 enough money to, uh, live the rest of their life, not have to work, but still work. Yeah. And how many

00:56:21.800 women, right. Who are living middle-class lifestyles steal for fun. They literally will steal things

00:56:27.960 for fun. Cause it gives them a thrill. Sure. You know, and it's like, so there, there could

00:56:32.880 just be the example of greed and the example of, I want to do this thing. Cause I really like doing

00:56:37.440 it. And it's like, I think there's a specific reason behind certain psychological, uh, habits

00:56:42.860 or, um, impulses, if you will. Sure. But you can't cure the human condition. You can't, how do you know

00:56:48.360 that's the human condition though? Because we've been dealing with greed and we've been dealing with

00:56:53.320 these problems, at least in the 20th, 21st century with the marching of science. Um, we have not been

00:57:00.000 able to just increase people's material, uh, positions in life and then crime suddenly goes

00:57:06.160 away. That element will always be there. Now I think you can reduce it. Yeah. Not saying you can't

00:57:11.440 reduce it. Like people in abject poverty, do you commit crime more? Not saying that that's not the

00:57:15.940 case. Sure. What I am saying though, is that in the interim time where you're trying to solve it,

00:57:20.100 it doesn't change the fact this guy has my TV. I never said it did. Yeah. And so I see that as

00:57:27.480 completely justified in blowing his face right off. I disagree. Yeah. But why though? I, again,

00:57:33.460 I would say the life has more, more value than the TV. Okay. Let's see if you actually believe that.

00:57:39.280 Okay. This would necessarily entail that his life had more value than any of your property.

00:57:45.300 What do you mean? Well, I mean, you're not going to put a number on his life, right? His life's worth

00:57:52.640 more than all the money in the world, isn't it? Um, it's a man? Woman. Oh, then yes. Yeah. Fair

00:58:03.800 enough. So this chick who wants to steal my TV, why can't she steal my house? How would you steal

00:58:09.880 someone's house? You squat. Squatters? Yeah. And now you've stolen my house and you've put me and my

00:58:17.420 family on the street. Can I blow you away then? Um, can you, or should you? Yeah. Ought you morally

00:58:26.940 be able to then? Uh, I, I would say that housing, because obviously it affects the, um, outcomes of

00:58:33.200 your family's wellbeing or their own survival would be, would be justified. Your position here is

00:58:37.040 inconsistent. You just said that property, property itself. It's not, it's not the property itself.

00:58:41.800 If you had another house to go to, go to that house. So, so wait, so if I had two properties,

00:58:47.580 they could chase me out of one of them because I had someplace else to go. I don't think you should

00:58:52.560 kill them, but I can kill them if they're chasing me out of the one place I have to go.

00:58:57.700 Well, I, I, I would say, um, if that's, is that the only solution? I mean, or you could call law

00:59:04.700 enforcement and then they potentially kill them trying to arrest them or whatever. I'm just asking you if

00:59:09.020 that's, is that the only solution? Well, I mean, right now I think that the only, well,

00:59:14.000 it's just in your hypothetical. I mean, Oh, and within the confines hypothetical. No,

00:59:17.720 you can have different solutions. Right. Um, then, then obviously I would opt for different

00:59:22.560 solutions. I mean, why would they want your house? Uh, who knows? They squat in people's houses

00:59:27.740 all the time. Cause they don't have houses. No, I think a lot of times housing. I think a lot of times

00:59:31.720 people do have access to housing. They don't want to work and they squat inside of people's houses

00:59:37.100 because it's free. Um, again, I, I just think that's like a capitalist assessment of human

00:59:43.600 behavior, um, as somehow being human nature. Yeah. But this doesn't really answer my question

00:59:51.060 about why it is that I can't kill them for taking my TV. It's mine. I agree. Yeah. Well,

00:59:58.800 I can't. So if you take my shit, I can't, because it's taking away from my kids, right? If you take

01:00:04.540 my TV, I have to replace it, right? Sure. That's going to cost me money. Sure. That

01:00:10.300 necessarily takes food and resource away from my children. Right. Um, yeah, sure. Yeah. So

01:00:16.480 then necessarily what you're actually doing when you steal my TV is you're, I think it

01:00:21.340 would just be to, you're depending on the degree. Yeah. You're, well, you're taking things

01:00:24.940 from my children. Right. And so the thing is, is my, I mean, potentially sure. Not potentially

01:00:29.700 if I have to replace the TV and after replace the TV with my money, that's going to necessarily

01:00:34.460 be less. Well, I mean, who knows? Maybe instead of, you know, buying beer that week, you buy

01:00:37.800 the TV. Okay. So, so, um, let's say your budget is set in such a way where you only have X amount

01:00:46.620 of money per week, like most American families. Sure. Yeah. So then, then you're still taking

01:00:51.880 money away from my kids, right? I mean, if you decide to replace the TV, I don't know, I, if

01:00:58.000 I couldn't, if it were between food for my child and a TV, I would probably do food for

01:01:01.880 my child. Yeah, sure. But the thing is, is now you have to allocate funds away from your

01:01:06.720 children. So any dollar you take, any dollar you take from me, regardless of what I normally

01:01:12.340 would have spent it on is taking money away from my kids necessarily. Possibly. Sure.

01:01:16.060 Yeah. So the thing is, is like, if you take from my kids, I kill you. Problem is, it seems

01:01:21.960 reasonable to me. It's within the confines of reason, logically stacks up. I don't think so.

01:01:27.060 I think that would just be depending on degree.

01:01:32.080 Why does it depend on the degree? If you don't steal shit, you don't get shot. It's simple.

01:01:36.720 Like what's the degree? I mean, what, what if, uh, what if they were stealing food? What would

01:01:42.140 that be an issue for you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a person has a right to defend their

01:01:47.720 food. Um, I mean, would you find it more justified if someone is like, would you steal food to feed

01:01:54.080 your children? Possibly. But do I think a person is not justified in doing something about that?

01:02:01.980 I think they are. I'm not saying they're not justified in doing something about that. I'm

01:02:07.060 saying like, obviously the reaction to, to what would be justified or not. Can I see myself doing

01:02:12.460 a bad thing on behalf of my children? Yeah. Sure. But that doesn't mean that I, within the confines

01:02:18.960 of reason, don't understand that a person can't do something about that. It's like, you can't say,

01:02:23.440 well, I'm not saying that, you know, you, you can do nothing. I think you could try and take the TV

01:02:27.600 back and, you know, punch them in the face. Well, that's dangerous. Sure. They could punch you back.

01:02:31.840 Yeah. So we're shooting them. They could shoot at you back.

01:02:34.300 Hmm. Usually if you shoot at somebody, I don't know how you can say my situation's dangerous,

01:02:39.120 but yours isn't. If somebody's running with your TV and you're shooting at them,

01:02:42.760 I don't think they're going to be shooting back. They're very skilled. They're going to hold the

01:02:47.960 TV like this and grab the gun. I mean, they're thin. Yeah. You can use one arm and, you know,

01:02:52.780 you don't think that's like moderately deranged. I don't think it's moderately deranged. You don't

01:02:56.280 think so? You don't think that TVs require two hands for men to carry them? Um, no. I mean,

01:03:01.780 I guess it depends how big the TV is. Like your living room TV. It's going to, you're going to take

01:03:07.140 I mean, my living room TV is big, but like my bedroom TV is small. Also, by the way,

01:03:10.060 it's just less dangerous in general. If you, if you fire the first shot, um, chances are pretty

01:03:15.840 good that that's the end of the confrontation. I mean, if you hit them, yeah. No, you don't

01:03:20.580 have to hit them. Just fire the shot even. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. Even that usually is enough

01:03:24.780 to end the confrontation. So anyway, I guess we've stayed on forced doctrine for a while.

01:03:29.700 Yeah. Did you want to cross examine me on this? Um, I, I guess it, I, I am curious in terms of

01:03:37.760 if you see, so you don't make this as a moral claim. It's just kind of a descriptive, descriptive

01:03:44.200 claim. So do you think men should do these things? Like which things, um, that they should use force

01:03:51.960 as an authority against women? Well, sometimes in some cases, sure. Like if a woman's committing a

01:03:59.400 crime, something like that, I think men are totally justified in using force. I think if a woman attacks

01:04:03.580 a man, he's totally justified in using force. I'm talking as like a societal. Yeah. But these

01:04:09.320 are societal prescriptions. If a, if a woman attacks a man, yeah, he's perfectly, it's perfectly

01:04:14.400 acceptable for him to. Sure. So, but there are instances where you say he, you know, like

01:04:18.520 if, um, like would you condone wife beating? Well, no, but I wouldn't condone husband beating.

01:04:25.620 So sure. But you're saying that, you know, men's authority is through force. This is how,

01:04:30.500 why we should have patriarchy. Enforcement. Not, so that's the requisite. But enforcement

01:04:36.820 is. Yeah, it is force. Yes. Yeah. But that doesn't mean. So authority is through force. Remember

01:04:40.620 my claim is that might makes, not that it makes right. Okay. But that it. So it's not a moral

01:04:46.900 ought. No, it's not. It's just a descriptive. So do you think that men should work to cooperate

01:04:52.540 with women in society? Um, no, I think women should cooperate with men in society because

01:05:00.060 they depend on, yeah, I'll explain. I think that women depend on men for the use of force

01:05:06.800 doctrine for their own protection. So I think, I mean, I think under patriarchy, sure. No,

01:05:11.420 I think under matriarchy, they still depend on men for force. Well, you said protection,

01:05:18.540 right? Yeah. Force. Yeah. What are you protecting them from? Uh, well, you could be protecting them

01:05:25.080 from other men generally. Right. So, um, I think under patriarchy, male provide per, uh,

01:05:31.700 male violence is pervasive. Under matriarchy, male violence is still pervasive. Why? Why is having a

01:05:38.320 female leader going to make male provide male violence no longer pervasive? That's bizarre.

01:05:44.300 Like there's a difference between saying I have a society that's just filled a hundred percent with

01:05:49.860 women. That would be a claim, but you're not saying that you're talking about a matriarchy

01:05:54.060 versus a patriarchy. Right. But I think when it comes to patriarchy, obviously we're talking about

01:05:58.600 male supremacy and domination and a form of domination is through violence. Yeah. Yeah. I agree

01:06:03.580 with all of that. So, so I, obviously if that's not a tenant of matriarchy, then I don't think male

01:06:09.620 violence would be pervasive because it's not used as a form of authority. Are there still going to be men

01:06:13.060 there? Yeah. What's going to make them less violent? Well, obviously because it's not used

01:06:18.560 as a form of authority. It's like, but I just got to telling you that wherever men are and women are,

01:06:26.320 women will depend on men for the use of force period. That's my claim, regardless of where they

01:06:32.640 are. So it doesn't matter if you have a queen, like, and it doesn't even matter if you put women

01:06:37.580 as the CEOs of everything. I mean, are we assuming that like just authority in general is force?

01:06:45.020 No. Authority in general isn't force, but in order to have rights or laws or governance of any kind

01:06:52.000 requires force. I mean, I don't disagree with that. Yeah. So that's going to require men. So

01:06:56.760 women are dependent upon men for force period. So I think that under a system of law, sure.

01:07:01.500 Under a system, under any system of governance, there's no system of governance in which women are

01:07:06.800 not dependent on men for force. None. You don't think that can be replaced with technology? Nope.

01:07:11.700 How? Men can destroy the technology. That's what force doctrine is. I mean, men may be in groups too,

01:07:18.080 but couldn't I say that about women? No, because you're still going to have to compete with a male

01:07:22.180 group. So your only options here are either of this. Like, let's say, let's even say you reduce the

01:07:27.580 male population down to 5%. You're just like, yay, it's all women now and it's 5% men or something

01:07:33.780 like this. You still would have a hard time controlling them. We know this because there

01:07:38.000 have been war tornations where like 80% of the men have died and they're still in charge because

01:07:42.720 that monopoly on force. It's not because women don't have access to guns. They have access to

01:07:48.160 guns, but they're less good with them. Guns require physical strength. Technology requires physical

01:07:51.820 strength. Like tanks, it requires physical strength to load one. Okay. I mean, our, but

01:07:57.140 when we're talking about cooperation, like co-means with, so I don't, what's the delineation between

01:08:02.280 you saying women should cooperate with men rather than men should cooperate with women? Because men

01:08:07.600 have the option that women don't have if utilizing force to make you cooperate. Well, then that's not

01:08:12.280 cooperating. Yeah. Well, it is. Well, hang on, but it is, it is still cooperation. So the idea here is

01:08:20.180 just this. Is it the case that men should cooperate with women? I guess if they choose to,

01:08:27.140 well, that's what cooperation is. Yeah. I would just say if they choose to,

01:08:31.540 I wouldn't say that they should. I mean, they make the, they're going to be the ones who make

01:08:35.620 the rules because they have the force.

01:08:40.280 But that's not cooperation. Well, it can be cooperation.

01:08:44.780 No, co-means with. Yeah. It is with. So it's doing it together. Are you saying that if somebody's

01:08:49.980 in a position of authority necessarily, that's not a cooperation? Like, do you not cooperate with your

01:08:54.580 children? Um, I mean, I do cooperate with my children, but that's not an authority. You're not

01:09:03.260 an authority? An authority in what sense? You're in charge. In charge of certain things? Sure. You're

01:09:09.740 in charge of everything. What do you mean I'm in charge of everything? I don't, I don't tell him

01:09:13.120 like what he needs to play. Can little Johnny tell you he's not going to the doctor today, mom?

01:09:17.760 Can he tell you he's not going to school? I mean, if he's sick. Sure. Can he tell you he's not going to

01:09:20.920 school? Again, if he's sick, that's a possibility. Okay. But, or, you know, I don't want to go to

01:09:25.100 school. You think he's lying. He's like, mom, I'm sick. You think he's lying. Is Johnny going to

01:09:29.740 school? Most likely. Yeah. So that's not cooperative. That's me using my authority. When he goes and gets

01:09:35.040 in the car and he's quiet, when you take him to school and you drop him off, that is cooperation.

01:09:43.020 I see what you mean in that sense. Maybe there's a word, a better word that I'm trying to think of

01:09:47.660 where it's more working together and negotiating, where there is no necessary authority, like a

01:09:52.540 partnership. Yeah. But why should men have a partnership when they have the monopoly on force?

01:09:58.480 I don't see why they need to have a partnership with women. Why, why would you want to subjugate

01:10:03.960 women? It's not subjugation any more than it is with your children. So I think it's a privileged

01:10:08.280 position that they get because they have the use of force. If they can be drafted and women can't,

01:10:12.320 they get extra rights. Well, again, I, I don't think that, um, like war in, in the draft can always

01:10:21.920 be like a necessary condition of the human existence. Okay. Give me a single hundred year

01:10:26.920 span in which there wasn't massive war. Um, the Iroquois lived in, lived in peace for 600 years.

01:10:32.760 No, the Iroquois fought plenty, especially within the Iroquois. I mean, um, there is a period of time,

01:10:39.360 but there was also a period of treaty and peace. The Iroquois can, well, are you talking about the

01:10:43.720 Iroquois confederacy? No, the, the indigenous tribe, the Iroquois. Yeah, I know they had a

01:10:48.620 confederacy though. Okay. Yeah. So the confederacy meaning like in the United States, but under like

01:10:53.600 a loose, loose doctrine of law, the Iroquois confederacy. My understanding is that the Iroquois

01:10:57.760 fought endlessly along with most Native American tribes. Uh, no, there was a period of, I would have to

01:11:03.860 look up the source, a period of, of 600 years of peace. No, I don't think war is in continuous state.

01:11:09.360 Of, uh, mankind. War is just fighting over, uh, resources. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And mankind's

01:11:17.760 always fighting over resources. Well, yeah, because, um, of either scarcity or manufactured

01:11:23.360 scarcity. Well, I mean, scarcity can simply happen, um, naturally, right? Sure. I mean, I mean,

01:11:31.980 yeah, are we talking about like, so if you have, yeah. So if you just have natural, natural scarcity,

01:11:36.600 which happens all the time, you're going to have conflict and the enforcers in that conflict

01:11:40.840 are going to be men. Men are going to be the defenders of your country, your nation, your

01:11:44.000 household. Right, but when it comes to like natural

01:11:45.080 scarcity, um, then obviously if you're in like communal groups, then that scarcity can

01:11:50.860 be overcome where there's abundance. Not always. Depends on what it is. Like, how are you going

01:11:55.540 to communally in a group do anything about a food shortage? There's no food. Other communities.

01:12:00.420 Yeah. If you have access to them. Right. And I, I would say like in today's society, we

01:12:05.800 absolutely do. Yeah, that's true. In today's society, we do have global trade, things like

01:12:10.900 this. You can assist people with various things when war hasn't gone away at all. Not even

01:12:15.400 a little bit. Well, in the 20th, 21st century, there's been more warfare than ever. Yeah.

01:12:19.160 Because of manufactured scarcity. I agree. No, it's not always because of manufactured

01:12:23.020 scarcity. Uh, yeah. It would be dependence theory. Okay. So why did we fight, go to war with

01:12:28.660 Germany? Which time? That was over scarcity the second time? World War II? Yeah. Um, I

01:12:35.240 mean, obviously the rise of fascism. So what was the scarcity? Um, well, within that one,

01:12:41.600 I would say obviously it was, uh, like authoritarian regimes trying to enact land. What was the scarcity

01:12:47.400 now? From who? From Germany. Germany was trying to, uh. How did that affect us? I mean, it didn't,

01:12:55.380 but obviously we wanted to stop imperialism only for Germany. So it didn't have anything

01:12:58.660 to do with scarcity for us, did it? I mean, eventually down the line, it was America's

01:13:03.240 concern that Germany or Russia would become a superpower and then start to, to come take

01:13:08.180 our land. That's what. Wait, what? So there was no scarcity for us and we still got involved

01:13:15.140 in the war. It's not always about scarcity of resources. I mean, I, I do think it is somewhat

01:13:20.000 of a basis because isn't that, isn't that where regimes are about or about power or authority

01:13:25.880 over your land and your people? Yeah. Your land and your people. And acquiring, and acquiring

01:13:29.860 resources. Yeah. What did that have to do with us? We didn't have to get involved in that

01:13:33.620 war. I know you're, you're absolutely right. We didn't. Yeah. So, but we didn't get involved

01:13:37.760 in it. It wasn't even packaged as like resource problems, nothing. So what resources were we

01:13:44.000 without? I'm saying that's like the crux of war. It wasn't the crux of that war. I mean,

01:13:51.800 weren't, we were intervening in order to stop, uh, the imperialism from Germany to other countries.

01:13:59.420 How does that, well, here's the thing. Even if we had let it go, wouldn't we have benefited

01:14:03.540 from that? I mean, it's hard to say. Yeah. But I'm just saying like that had nothing to do

01:14:07.740 with scarcity. I don't think that the propensity for human war and violence is always about scarcity

01:14:12.120 and resource. I think that that's Marxist nonsense. What would it be about? Oh, it could

01:14:16.340 be about all sorts of different things. It could be about, um, an idea of conquest, right?

01:14:22.600 What do you mean by conquest? I want to take over everything cause I want to. Well, isn't,

01:14:25.940 isn't land a resource? Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's, what's the scarcity? You have

01:14:30.000 plenty of land. You just want more anyway. Yes. But how does that come down to scarcity?

01:14:36.320 Cause you're saying the motivation is I don't have enough of it. It's essentially acquisition

01:14:40.280 of resources. And if you have more resources, then you're less likely to have scarcity.

01:14:47.560 Okay. So you agree with me that Kings are the ones who send their people to war.

01:14:53.420 Yeah. Do Kings have a lack of resources?

01:14:59.140 Um, I mean, not with, within like their own personal experience, but within their kingdom.

01:15:03.640 Yeah. Isn't that what led to, um, the fall of Rome was essentially too much global expansion.

01:15:08.800 And then, uh, because they didn't have the resources in order to sustain their civilization.

01:15:14.620 No. Well, I mean, maybe there's a small part there, but it was Christianity basically is

01:15:20.440 what destroyed Rome. So that's what, that's what basically took out Rome. You know, when

01:15:26.520 it's all said and done was Christianity is the idea of no more unification of religious

01:15:30.620 paganism. But, uh, I guess that's neither here nor there, but you could, that's another thing

01:15:35.580 you could be fighting over just religion. What's the scarcity there? Um, Oh, sure.

01:15:43.980 I don't like, you know, Christian says, I don't like Muslims. Muslims say I don't like

01:15:47.440 Christians. Sure. Sure. Where's the scarcity? Um, I mean, obviously that's not a scarcity of

01:15:53.440 resources. So sure. I can concede that there could be other motivations. Yeah. So, and any,

01:15:58.720 I would say that would be the main motivation though. Okay. And so then within any motivation,

01:16:02.720 men are going to be the operators of forced doctrine. They're going to be the ones fighting

01:16:06.860 the war, right? Okay. Yeah. So if they're, if that's the case, they're going to necessarily

01:16:10.720 need authority to do that. It's a necessary condition. It's a necessary condition with the

01:16:18.020 authority. This is my argument for why patriarchy is a necessary condition. I mean, we, we can art,

01:16:26.660 we can agree that, you know, the men that are fighting are not the men making decisions,

01:16:31.040 right? No, they very much are often making decisions. Yes. Really? You think that like

01:16:36.800 presidents like Eisenhower are going to war? Yeah. Grant went to war. Eisenhower went to war. I mean,

01:16:43.580 the list of presidents that went to war is insane and the pipeline between general and president is

01:16:48.720 also insane. So yeah, definitely a lot of presidents. I mean, sure. I would sure there are

01:16:54.920 examples, but ultimately I think there, there are obviously like a class of people making decisions

01:16:59.880 and then enacting that through a proxy of military. What gives the president the most amount of power

01:17:03.800 though, is he's the commander in chief of the United States armed forces. That's what gives him

01:17:07.600 his primary proxy of power. That's what gives all men their primary proxy of power is the authority

01:17:13.160 over force. So the thing is, I don't disagree with that. The difference is, is men can always change

01:17:19.000 the conditionals for leadership and women can't. So necessarily under patriarchy. Absolutely.

01:17:24.740 Sure. How could they do it under matriarchy? How? I mean, what, what's the ultimate goal here

01:17:29.660 for, for society to be made? I mean, are you asking from my view or are you asking from your view?

01:17:39.460 From your view. Oh, for, for my view, it's simple. Just the, the spreading and propensity

01:17:43.520 for Christian ethics in society. Why? Because I think people live better lives that way.

01:17:48.140 What do you mean by better lives? Oh, I would say things I, we'd probably have some agreement here,

01:17:52.780 right? Healthy children, healthy families, well-adjusted, uh, lack of general degeneracy

01:17:58.380 in societies, things like that. Sure. Um, so can you, can you give me a little bit more specifics?

01:18:04.320 I mean, that was pretty specific. Like what? Uh, would you say like access to medical care?

01:18:09.400 Yeah. I think you need general access to medical care. Yeah. Access to housing.

01:18:13.420 Yeah. In order to be healthy. Yeah. Access to education. Sure.

01:18:16.880 Um, so I mean, then we agree that the desired outcome of society would be human flourishing.

01:18:27.840 Yeah. But we have a very, very different idea of what human flourishing is.

01:18:32.880 Okay. Well, what, what is that for you? So when you just talk about base things,

01:18:37.480 yeah, I can agree with you that, uh, human beings generally speaking need to be educated

01:18:41.640 to have housing, things like this. Right. But these are basic needs. Sure. Right. When you,

01:18:46.560 but what about when you're talking about a hierarchy of needs, what happens when we get past the basic

01:18:50.640 needs? What happens to civilization then? What do you mean? Well, okay. So let's say we all have

01:18:56.280 houses. Most of us do. We have someplace to live. Almost nobody in the United States is starving.

01:19:01.860 Almost nobody. Well, uh, I mean, uh, starving and food scarcity, I think are two different things.

01:19:07.540 I'm one in seven families rely on food banks. Are they starving in terms of starving to death

01:19:13.680 in terms of starving at all? Um, I, I guess I just don't know how I would

01:19:19.260 like relate starving. Yeah. So they're relying on a food bank. It's the difference between that

01:19:24.680 being relying on the state for food. So the food is the, the, basically the alleviation of the ability

01:19:30.560 for you to eat, right. Or not eat. Yeah. So obviously if we're going to talk about then like access to

01:19:36.040 food, um, like it would be nutritious, calorie dense food. Well, I mean, uh, yes, but also not

01:19:43.920 pre-packaged process shit, right? Yeah. Um, maybe calorie dense wasn't the right word. Um,

01:19:48.720 I meant nutritious dense, uh, yeah. Whatever the nutritional standard is, we would agree. Sure.

01:19:55.020 But no, people still experience food scarcity. Like kids go to, go to school hungry.

01:20:00.140 No, every, every kid who would possibly be hungry at school has access to a school lunch program.

01:20:06.800 Um, I mean, depending on, uh, where you live, I know where I live, school lunch is free, but,

01:20:11.180 but not in other States. There's no, there's no place I'm aware of where you're, if you are under

01:20:15.580 the poverty line, school lunch isn't served to you for free. But if you are above the poverty line,

01:20:20.440 then you don't have access to school lunch. Uh, yeah, probably not. Do you agree with that then?

01:20:26.800 Yeah. I think that that's fine. Okay. Yeah. I don't think that, uh, so that would just be a

01:20:32.080 misallocation of parental resources. So you just misallocating resources. They're your resources.

01:20:39.220 You can allocate them correctly or incorrectly. I don't see why the state needs to allocate them for

01:20:44.220 you. Well, if we're going to talk about then kind of like the dynamics of capitalism, I do think we

01:20:49.360 need to acknowledge that obviously capitalism needs to create a poor class in order to exploit

01:20:53.820 their labor. So, I mean, if you're poor and you only have X amount of dollars. So does communism.

01:20:59.700 What do you mean? Well, so do you agree with me when it comes to class that there's a such thing as

01:21:04.220 social class? Um, I guess it would mean, I guess it would need to know what you define as social class.

01:21:10.920 Academics versus laborers? Sure. Like prestige? Sure. Yeah. So, I mean,

01:21:15.200 is it going to be still in the communist society, laborers to do most of the work?

01:21:20.300 Yes, but they would have access to the, they would own the means of production to where essentially

01:21:25.580 they would have access to the materials in order to execute the labor. Yeah. Whereas the capitalist

01:21:30.280 has access to that. So they're able to steal the surplus value. Yeah. But then you would have

01:21:33.960 academics still who would have prestigious positions of being able to determine where the

01:21:39.460 things, which they now have the means of production need to go. And so those people necessarily

01:21:44.000 end up with authority. There's no way around it. I mean, I don't think, uh, like authority

01:21:49.060 and class are necessarily intertwined. Let's find out. Let's find out. Let me test this real

01:21:56.980 quick before I let you move on. I just wanted to go back to the original. Yeah, we will. But I just

01:22:00.940 real quick, this whole table is communism, let's say. Okay. And, uh, within the confines of this whole

01:22:06.980 table, every little individual industry, the workers own the means of production. Okay. Okay.

01:22:13.180 They're all producing it all. Who gets to decide where it goes? Um, well, that would be the

01:22:18.080 proletariat. The proletariat decides where it goes. Yeah. How? Uh, through democracy, through

01:22:24.180 voting. Okay. So government. Um, well, again, it would depend on what you mean by government.

01:22:31.240 It would just be people in a governing body who make decisions on behalf of this democratically,

01:22:35.420 they're democratically elected. Sure. I just want to make the delineation that it wouldn't be

01:22:38.780 considered a state. Okay. But it's a government. Sure. Yeah. And so necessarily the people in the

01:22:44.900 government who are making the decision on where these resources go, those people are necessarily

01:22:49.040 going to have to be imbued with authority. Okay. Yeah. So if that is the case, you're always going

01:22:53.520 to end up with a class society because the people who have authority are always going to have prestige.

01:23:00.020 Um, well, but it's, it's the working people that have the authority.

01:23:03.780 No. Yeah. That's what the proletariat is. They don't get to determine where their resources get

01:23:09.020 allocated. Somebody has to determine that whoever determines where the allocation of the resources

01:23:14.180 go, they're the ones who are going to have authority. That would be the community. The community would

01:23:17.580 have the authority. So what if the community votes then to keep all of the resources for themselves

01:23:22.480 and not share them with anybody? Okay. They don't have to share them? Um, correct. I mean,

01:23:29.540 obviously then that sounds an awful lot like capitalism. How would that be capitalism?

01:23:34.420 Well, I mean, what's the difference right now between a company who has a bunch of employees

01:23:39.240 and they all make a whole bunch of products and they sell all those products and they keep

01:23:43.460 all the money for themselves. What's the difference between that and a group of people who own the

01:23:48.220 means of production, the company, they own the company and they sell a bunch of products keeping

01:23:53.640 their own product, not, not the capitalist workers. What do you mean? Workers keep their product

01:23:59.160 now money. No, they don't. They keep a paycheck, right? No, the product is, um, so if I'm a worker

01:24:05.520 and my labor makes a thousand dollars worth of profit, uh, the capitalist pays me my hourly wage,

01:24:12.700 which could be, let's just say for the day, a hundred bucks. And then he keeps the 900.

01:24:16.320 But in, um, you know, that, that's like an example within capitalists, but within communists,

01:24:21.360 like the workers own the means of production, which means there's no capitalist who owns the factory,

01:24:25.620 who owns the materials. How do these people who work in these factories allocate the resources

01:24:30.780 amongst each other? Amongst each other? Well, you can have, uh, democratically elected leaders,

01:24:36.740 or you can, uh, have votes. So these democratically elected leaders could democratically say these

01:24:43.660 people over here do more work than me. They get more money. Well, I mean, under communism,

01:24:47.700 ideally it would be, uh, moneyless, but I think it would just be determined. Like if you work for a

01:24:53.620 thousand, if you work and produce a thousand dollars, you get a thousand dollars.

01:24:56.740 So if your production makes a thousand dollars, you get a thousand dollars. Can you spend that

01:25:01.840 thousand dollars on getting a bigger house than somebody else? Well, again, if we're talking

01:25:05.760 about like true communists, it's, it's moneyless. So this kind of example, um, isn't really relative.

01:25:13.220 Yeah, but I'm just, I'm failing to see a single example you're giving me where I can't be like,

01:25:18.180 well, it sounds like we could have class off of this immediately.

01:25:20.840 Well, I think class and prestige or kinship are different concepts.

01:25:27.160 Yeah. I'm not disagreeing, but I'm talking right now about class. So it just sounds to me like if

01:25:32.100 you have more resources, you would be set in a class above other people who don't have as much

01:25:35.780 resources. That's, that would be class, right? Well, no, cause you would have access to the means

01:25:40.340 of productions of resources. Yeah. Well, you'd have access to the means of production, at least where

01:25:46.820 you work for resources. Right. And I mean, you could go to a, like, but you still need fruit

01:25:51.520 and you still need bananas, right? You still need steak. You need all of these things. You need,

01:25:55.960 you need lumber. So somebody's going to have to decide where all that shit goes, right? So that

01:26:01.280 everybody gets it. So then it would be, yeah, the community or, and I think you can do that through

01:26:05.240 reason, through practicality. Well, you can't have, like, you couldn't have 300 million people voting

01:26:10.120 on where each individual piece of lumber. Well, it would be like individual, uh, sex of

01:26:14.500 community. So obviously like, let's just say for example, like Brazil is exporting coffee

01:26:19.000 and they have a really bad coffee season. Yeah. Then, you know, maybe exports don't go to

01:26:24.400 countries that are farther distance, just ones that are closer because there's only so much

01:26:28.940 amount that someone can get. And then, so yeah, maybe someone. That makes no sense. What do you mean?

01:26:35.820 Well, you're still going to have central people in a central authority who would have to determine

01:26:40.720 where, cause when you think about resources, like just look around this room, there's cameras and

01:26:46.620 monitors and plates and cups. And I mean, it's an enormous amount of resources just looking around

01:26:52.020 that all need to be allocated all over the place in equity. I mean, depending, it doesn't necessarily

01:26:57.620 need to be equity based on someone's need, based on necessity. Well, everybody needs plates.

01:27:02.380 Sure. Yes. I mean, you have to, so I don't, I don't necessarily say there would be one factory

01:27:07.960 in Texas that would produce all the plates within the country. You can have multiple industries based

01:27:12.640 in certain communities. But somebody is going to have to determine where all the plates in the

01:27:16.440 country go. How many, how many does Houston get? Well, the community can determine. How,

01:27:21.440 how do you determine that? How would, how would the community? Based on need. So then they're

01:27:26.200 going to vote on each individual shipment going to every node of the United States? Well, again,

01:27:31.900 I don't know like why we're just saying that one place makes plates. Well, that was your example.

01:27:37.960 No, I said there can be sex of. Oh, I agree. There could be, that's even worse. That just makes

01:27:41.920 the problem even more complex. How? Well, now we got, there's already plates going to Houston. They

01:27:46.900 don't need them. What do we do with our plates? We send them over here to this guy. Yeah. Wherever

01:27:50.640 there's need. I mean, I don't know why we produce something that we don't need. Somebody's going to make

01:27:54.180 the determination of the need. Okay. That's the point. I don't necessarily think that that's. So there's going to be,

01:27:59.060 there's going to be what are called middlemen, middlemen who are going to make a determination

01:28:02.840 on where resources are allocated. Sure. Do I think there are going to be people who do

01:28:05.000 administrative duties? Sure. Is that what we're saying? Yeah. Those people are always going to

01:28:07.280 have a higher prestige than the laborers. I don't think that's class. That's definitely class.

01:28:12.780 It's not class. Then why are they? Making, making decisions is not class.

01:28:17.040 If you have authority. Authority is not class. No? No. Oh, okay. So then, um, who do,

01:28:24.520 would you say that you have the same amount of class hierarchy as the president? Um, no. Why?

01:28:32.840 Well, that's not class though. Like me and the president, those aren't class determinations.

01:28:37.360 Yes, they are. Those are authority determinations. They are class determinations. When you're talking

01:28:40.400 about class. Then why did you just say that you don't have the same class hierarchy as him?

01:28:44.720 Um, I, I'm sorry if I misspoke. I just want to make sure that we're understanding the delineation

01:28:51.640 between class. So, um, yes, I do think there is a ruling class and then there is a working class.

01:28:59.680 So in the hierarchy, where is the president to you? Um, it's a good question. Um, I mean,

01:29:10.640 I would say the president is essentially a part of the state, which is kind of, uh, an authoritative

01:29:16.120 arm of the ruling class. So he's higher in the hierarchy than you? Uh, yeah, he's an authoritative

01:29:22.600 arm. Sure. Yeah. So can you give me examples of people who have authority who aren't higher

01:29:27.540 in the hierarchy than you? Of people who have authority? What do you mean? A person who is

01:29:33.820 in a position of authority over, and at least as far as a government body goes, who aren't

01:29:39.060 in a higher hierarchy than you? They're not higher than you are. I mean, I guess it would

01:29:43.700 depend on what sex, sex we're talking about. Any, like any sect, if they have authority necessarily,

01:29:51.520 they're going to be higher. What I'm saying is when it comes to authority, it's not necessarily

01:29:56.300 central to the idea of class. Um, like obviously the ruling class, like, do you, do you think

01:30:02.780 that people who own property have like what you would call legal authority over people who don't

01:30:11.260 have property? No, no, no. So you would have legal authority on your property. Sure. I, but right. But

01:30:18.140 I would say that having property or having capital gives you a specific type of authority that's

01:30:24.580 different than say a structural, um, presidential authority. It still gives you authority. My whole

01:30:30.660 point is authority. So if I have vast, vast amounts of property that people live on, right. You would

01:30:37.220 definitely put me higher in a class hierarchy than the people who lived on my property likely.

01:30:42.800 So, and that's because I have authority. Right. But authority is not just necessarily like

01:30:47.220 decision-making positions. It can also be, um, access to certain resources or, um, or capital.

01:30:58.120 Yeah, sure. But my point is that authority itself also seems to be a big position for hierarchy for

01:31:08.740 being up in the hierarchy. So what I'm saying, I guess my ultimate argument just to reduce it very

01:31:12.660 quickly, because I feel like we're circling, it's just this, that necessarily because men have the

01:31:18.600 monopoly on force, they will always be appealed to for forced doctrine by women. Since that's the case,

01:31:24.320 you're going to have to have necessary authority imbued in them. And because of that, you're never

01:31:28.580 going to actually have a classless society because whoever's imbued with the doctrine of force is

01:31:34.600 going to be the one who's essentially in charge of people. And that's just the way it is descriptively.

01:31:41.020 I mean, do you think that men within this society who hold high authority are necessarily the

01:31:46.900 strongest? No. No. So like authority isn't directly derived from, from force. Yes, it is.

01:31:54.200 Here's why. Because you can change the condition of who holds authority with force and men uniquely

01:31:58.980 can do that and women can't. So while it's true, you could have, let's say a woman who's in charge

01:32:03.380 of a group of men. Like, let's say you're a second lieutenant in the United States military.

01:32:07.420 You're in charge of a group of guys, right? Men can literally change the conditionals anytime they

01:32:15.040 want to of their government and women cannot. So men can always collect their eyes to change

01:32:21.020 conditionals. I'm sorry. So we're talking about a lieutenant in the military and now we're talking

01:32:26.660 about government conditionals? Well, I was giving you an example of where a woman could have some

01:32:30.920 kind of authority over men, right? Sure. In terms of ranking, sure. Yeah, yeah, sure. But only that

01:32:37.120 it's because men are not challenging that authority that she's able to keep it. Men uniquely can do that

01:32:42.080 and women cannot. That's why. So I'm sorry. Are you saying that the army can challenge her authority?

01:32:50.660 No, the president can remove her like in a second, right? Okay. Yeah. So I'm sorry. What's your point?

01:32:56.700 Well, I'm just saying that if men don't like the conditionals that they have,

01:33:00.360 they can overthrow the nation they're in. Well, if men are in that position though, correct?

01:33:05.740 Men are always in that position to be in the position of overthrow. Are you talking like the

01:33:10.160 president? No, I'm talking about just general. Okay. Maybe we're talking past each other. Let's back up.

01:33:16.260 Inside of any nation institution. Okay. In this case, would you say a country? Okay. Um, I don't know.

01:33:23.560 I guess it would depend on what you would consider a country, but

01:33:26.240 I think you and I wouldn't disagree. The United States is a country, right?

01:33:30.620 Sure. Okay.

01:33:32.400 If the men in the United States wanted to overthrow the right, rightfully elected government of the

01:33:36.400 United States, they could. Women could not.

01:33:40.020 Like citizens? Yeah.

01:33:43.280 And the only thing that would defend... I don't know about that.

01:33:45.760 The only thing that could defend the United States from that would be men again.

01:33:48.900 So it would be men on the defense and men on the offense, but women have never historically

01:33:53.460 overthrown any government with violence ever once.

01:33:58.280 Again, like, do you think that... I don't think men, citizens could overthrow the United States

01:34:05.120 government. Maybe not. Just because of...

01:34:06.720 That's because men would be there with guns to stop them.

01:34:08.800 Well, I think that's because of, again, like tools.

01:34:12.720 Yeah, sure. But what I'm saying is that...

01:34:13.840 I mean, do you think if women had all the nukes that we wouldn't win?

01:34:17.480 No, you wouldn't win.

01:34:18.860 Why?

01:34:19.340 Well, who would you nuke? Yourself?

01:34:21.180 No, the men.

01:34:22.260 Where?

01:34:22.500 In your hypothetical.

01:34:23.540 Yeah, where are you going to nuke the men at? That you don't have to go, right? So men

01:34:26.620 are everywhere. So the thing is, is that women are everywhere, too.

01:34:29.720 Well, women are everywhere.

01:34:30.160 I agree, but men have the ability to enslave women, and women don't have the ability to

01:34:33.760 enslave men. Men have the ability to take themselves out of any governmental situation

01:34:38.640 they want via force, and women don't have that. They never have had that. They've never

01:34:43.200 been able to do it once. There's never been a violent government overthrow done by

01:34:47.220 women ever, not even once, because there's men. That's the problem, right? They'd have

01:34:52.980 to face off with men, and only men can uniquely do that. So men are always in a position of

01:34:56.820 patriarchy because you have to appeal to them for authority.

01:34:59.740 I don't think that that is necessarily the case, because then, too, when you are going

01:35:11.200 to enact violence against a group, like, you do have to expect that violence will be enacted

01:35:16.760 against you.

01:35:17.560 Agreed.

01:35:17.820 And so I think there does need to be some kind of evaluation on why you're enacting the

01:35:24.840 violence.

01:35:25.700 Sure. But that's, the problem is, is like, let's say we come to an agreement of why men

01:35:32.460 are enacting violence, right? The Chinese are enacting violence against their women because

01:35:36.880 of, I don't know, some cultural taboo from a thousand years ago.

01:35:40.280 I'm just wondering why men, like, what is your philosophy around men enslaving women?

01:35:44.480 Well, I think I've already covered this. I think they ought not enslave anybody, but

01:35:49.760 not just women. They also ought not enslave men.

01:35:53.020 Sure.

01:35:53.380 Yeah, it has nothing to do with the condition of women. However, they're the only ones capable

01:35:57.000 of...

01:35:57.020 So would men, like, not have a duty to abuse that authority?

01:36:00.040 Well, how is it abusive? How are they abusing that authority? By simply, well, like, when you're

01:36:06.300 talking about abuse, if men voted and women couldn't, but men fought the wars and women didn't,

01:36:11.740 how's that abuse?

01:36:14.480 Well, I, again, I think we're going back to, like, a system that is in current place for,

01:36:21.640 like, unnecessary reasons. Like, essentially, we're talking about how societies interact today

01:36:30.420 under non-cooperative or non-cohesive goals.

01:36:37.640 Okay. What's the argument, though?

01:36:42.540 For...

01:36:42.640 Well, for why it is that if men are fighting the wars, they're necessarily in a position

01:36:51.080 of privilege where they can make the determination.

01:36:53.320 I mean, I don't... Like, women can fight against... Alongside men. I don't think this is...

01:37:00.400 They can't. They literally cannot fight alongside men.

01:37:04.880 They have. Like, in the Civil War, women were sneaking in to the military.

01:37:08.980 Women were not fighting. Yes, they were.

01:37:09.820 Do you want... Would you like to get a death count on how many women died in combat in

01:37:12.720 the Civil War versus men?

01:37:13.680 Well, they weren't allowed to enlist in the Civil War.

01:37:15.920 They're allowed right now.

01:37:16.740 So, they snuck in.

01:37:17.960 They're allowed right now?

01:37:18.660 And they fought on... Next to their husbands, and they died.

01:37:21.700 Would you like a list of how many women right now are in the combat infantry capable of going

01:37:26.340 to the front lines in comparison to men? Do you want to know how many that is?

01:37:29.300 Sure.

01:37:30.060 Okay. Well, let's start with this. Special Forces. How many female Navy SEALs do you think

01:37:34.840 there are?

01:37:37.280 None.

01:37:38.720 How many?

01:37:39.580 None.

01:37:40.140 That's really weird. Are they... I'm sorry. Are they barred from being Navy SEALs?

01:37:44.740 No.

01:37:45.660 Oh, that's... And they are trying to become Navy SEALs.

01:37:51.000 I think there have been women who...

01:37:53.960 A lot of them.

01:37:54.260 I mean, how many Navy SEALs are there?

01:37:56.140 I don't know. But how many... I mean, let's say there's...

01:37:58.720 I think that's a... It's important delineation to make, too, because I'm sure you would argue

01:38:02.280 a majority of men don't meet that requirement.

01:38:04.300 Sure.

01:38:05.160 So, how many men are meeting that requirement? Again, it's...

01:38:07.520 But all the ones who are are men.

01:38:09.920 Well, you know, again, but again, it's saying the fence is six feet tall. You have to be able

01:38:15.160 to see over the fence, and you know that...

01:38:16.700 So, you want them to lower the standards of physical strength for Navy SEALs?

01:38:20.900 Well, again, like, if we're talking about the certain systems that are in place, I don't

01:38:25.600 think, like... There are countries that exist without Navy SEALs. There are countries that

01:38:30.180 exist without...

01:38:31.060 What country exists without special forces? There's no country that exists without special

01:38:36.500 forces. Not one.

01:38:37.460 Not to the degree that we have here. I mean, are you saying all countries have a Navy, a

01:38:42.300 military, and an Air Force?

01:38:43.580 There's no country I'm aware of that doesn't have a military. None.

01:38:46.420 Well, again, I delineated between Air Force, Navy...

01:38:49.940 That's just branches of military.

01:38:51.560 Right.

01:38:52.160 Yeah. So what? Like, no, I think if you live in the middle of the desert, you don't have

01:38:55.220 a Navy.

01:38:55.660 But obviously...

01:38:56.460 Yeah, if you live in the desert, you don't have a Navy.

01:38:57.960 Sure.

01:38:58.260 But then you still have a military. That's the point.

01:38:59.880 Sure. But again, like, to what degree do you, like... How large does this need to be? I

01:39:05.760 don't think it necessarily needs to be always a necessary condition of a society.

01:39:12.400 Yeah, it does need to be a necessary condition of a society, because you have to have force in

01:39:16.980 order to run a society. You have to. There's no way around it. But back to this,

01:39:21.880 you kind of obfuscated, almost got away with it. But how many females Navy SEALs are there?

01:39:27.220 There's zero. They're not barred from doing it.

01:39:29.260 Right.

01:39:29.560 So what's the barrier for them?

01:39:31.580 I mean, obviously, physical capacity.

01:39:33.060 Yeah, they can't meet the physical capacity.

01:39:35.080 And so the thing is, hang on, we can break this down going beyond that, beyond the Navy SEALs.

01:39:39.280 You just start with the Special Forces. Let's move over into other types of Special Forces.

01:39:44.040 How many female Green Berets?

01:39:45.300 Oh, I have no idea.

01:39:47.020 How many do you think?

01:39:47.740 Um, I don't know.

01:39:50.800 Okay, well, Green Berets, Special Forces, I don't think there's any of those either.

01:39:54.100 Okay.

01:39:54.520 Okay. But if you get into combat infantry, right, women who are capable of being in combat in the

01:40:01.920 infantry, would you say that that is on par with men or less than?

01:40:06.860 Probably less than.

01:40:08.080 Significantly less?

01:40:08.740 Yeah. I don't think women are steered towards armed forces.

01:40:12.260 Now, let me ask you a question.

01:40:13.500 Sure.

01:40:13.680 Let's pretend for a second that you are a general.

01:40:16.240 And you should be able to think like a general, right?

01:40:18.520 Because women aren't incapable of that or anything.

01:40:21.780 So the enemy, right, the enemy really likes to grape women like that.

01:40:28.660 They really like that, right?

01:40:30.360 And you have men and women who can fight in the front lines, right?

01:40:34.000 So you draft men and you draft women.

01:40:35.600 Do you think that the enemy would try to demoralize you by graping your women?

01:40:39.780 Yes.

01:40:40.420 Yeah.

01:40:41.420 Would it work?

01:40:43.600 Demoralize women?

01:40:44.480 No, to demoralize men and women.

01:40:46.760 Wouldn't it demoralize the men if the enemy was graping female soldiers and they could like hear them?

01:40:52.060 I think that would demoralize anyone, sure.

01:40:54.320 Yeah, but it would really demoralize the men, right?

01:40:58.200 What, I, what, what's?

01:41:01.160 Because they can't do anything to stop it.

01:41:03.020 Okay.

01:41:03.360 And they want to stop it, right?

01:41:05.600 I would think anyone would want to stop it, right?

01:41:07.660 Yeah, sure.

01:41:08.280 But when you're talking about your fighting force, right, do you think that the enemy is going to grape the men?

01:41:14.080 I mean, if there's no women, sure.

01:41:15.940 They don't.

01:41:16.780 That's what happens in prison.

01:41:18.460 Yeah, sure.

01:41:19.260 It happens in prison, not usually in infantry combat.

01:41:22.660 Well, I mean, because there's no, like, we're just giving an example.

01:41:25.600 Like, when there's no women, men grape men.

01:41:28.380 Yeah, but that's, first of all, that does happen in prison.

01:41:31.500 It's not common.

01:41:32.740 But let me ask you this.

01:41:34.220 Would it be more common in prisons?

01:41:35.780 I think it's pretty common.

01:41:36.080 Would it be more common in prison for there to be grape if they were co-ed?

01:41:40.380 Um, I mean, grape happens a lot in prison, being sex segregated.

01:41:46.860 Yeah.

01:41:47.240 Would it happen more if it wasn't sex segregated?

01:41:50.060 Like, if there was a lot of women around very violent inmates, do you think that they would get grape, there would be more grape or less grape?

01:41:58.380 Um, I think the women, yeah, they would grape women.

01:42:01.100 There would be a lot more grape, right?

01:42:04.120 I mean, there's opportunity.

01:42:06.040 They're smaller, easier to do.

01:42:08.040 Sure.

01:42:08.900 But I don't think grape is necessarily, like, just an act of physical strength.

01:42:14.280 Yeah, maybe not.

01:42:14.940 There needs to be motivation.

01:42:15.880 Like, I'm commanding you to grape the enemy because it demoralizes them.

01:42:20.540 Sure.

01:42:21.040 Yeah.

01:42:21.360 So, I mean, don't you think that that takes away from the effectiveness of women in combat in general?

01:42:27.020 Um, I mean, not necessarily.

01:42:32.480 What?

01:42:34.780 So, you're saying because women are present and there's an opportunity for the...

01:42:39.100 No, in combat, they're present.

01:42:40.560 Right, women are present in combat.

01:42:41.700 You agree that people get captured in combat all the time.

01:42:44.760 Right.

01:42:45.160 So, so let's just, I'm sorry, let me just understand this hypothetical here.

01:42:49.200 So, there's hypothetical one where the entire infantry is men.

01:42:52.700 Yeah.

01:42:53.300 And there's hypothetical two where...

01:42:55.020 Where it's mixed.

01:42:55.640 It's mixed.

01:42:56.940 And what, what's, there are different outcomes?

01:43:01.800 Yes.

01:43:02.860 Very different outcomes.

01:43:04.180 Why are the ones with men having a different...

01:43:10.160 Because they're not getting graped by the enemy.

01:43:13.340 They're getting captured by the enemy, but they're not getting graped.

01:43:16.220 Well, wouldn't that be demoralizing?

01:43:17.340 Not as demoralizing as sending your own soldiers back pregnant with the enemy's enemy, or enemy's baby inside of their womb.

01:43:23.120 That seems way more demoralizing to me.

01:43:25.080 Okay.

01:43:26.160 Wouldn't that, doesn't that seem way more demoralizing to you?

01:43:28.500 Um, I mean, definitely more horrific.

01:43:30.660 Like, for one thing, finding soldiers who would just, like, have gay sodomizing sex with men would not be easy to do.

01:43:37.320 But finding soldiers who would be willing to grape the enemy's women doesn't seem like that would be very difficult to find.

01:43:43.700 Okay.

01:43:44.540 Would you agree with that?

01:43:45.720 Sure.

01:43:46.300 Yeah.

01:43:46.520 So, yeah, it would be very demoralizing, wouldn't it?

01:43:50.580 Yeah.

01:43:50.980 Yeah.

01:43:51.280 So, it's probably not a good idea to have women on the front line combat because of that reason, right?

01:43:57.920 Um, I mean, I guess that's just kind of assuming that that is, like, essentially what's always going to happen.

01:44:06.260 Do you think that our enemies are not going to grape our women?

01:44:09.760 Um, I guess, I guess it would depend.

01:44:13.860 I mean, if we're talking on front lines, like, hand-to-hand combat, um, yeah.

01:44:18.980 They haven't seen women, they're fighting a war, they haven't seen women in, like, two years.

01:44:23.740 What do you think they're going to do when they capture enemy women?

01:44:26.860 I mean, that happens with civilians.

01:44:29.040 Yeah.

01:44:29.600 What does?

01:44:30.740 That they haven't seen women in two years?

01:44:32.260 No, that, you know, they grape civilians as well.

01:44:36.480 Sure.

01:44:37.440 Yeah.

01:44:38.120 I agree.

01:44:38.980 Yeah.

01:44:39.180 That's why usually when armies pull back, they pull their civilian population back with them.

01:44:42.580 Mm-hmm.

01:44:43.240 So what?

01:44:44.520 Because they don't want to get their female population graped by the enemy.

01:44:48.340 Okay.

01:44:48.780 That's why they do that.

01:44:49.560 Like, okay.

01:44:50.720 So, yes, I do recognize that.

01:44:52.380 Obviously, there's going to be a different outcome in war for women than there is for men.

01:44:55.800 They're going to get graped.

01:44:56.380 Because of gender.

01:44:57.100 Sure.

01:44:57.260 Yeah, they're going to get graped, and then they're going to get pregnant.

01:44:59.080 That's going to be really demoralizing.

01:45:02.160 Right?

01:45:02.780 I don't disagree.

01:45:04.300 But I don't know if that's like a...

01:45:05.980 Well, I'll just ask you this.

01:45:07.040 If you're in charge of your nation's security, and the enemy is brutal, and they're horrible,

01:45:12.520 and you need to win this war by any means necessary, would you order your men to grape the enemy's women?

01:45:20.340 No.

01:45:20.700 Even if you needed to win?

01:45:23.040 What if they were going to grape your women?

01:45:25.360 And you needed to demoralize them?

01:45:27.060 Would you do it?

01:45:27.800 No.

01:45:28.900 See, you're not even equipped to make these decisions.

01:45:32.300 Not even equipped to make these decisions.

01:45:34.140 To justify grape?

01:45:35.340 No.

01:45:36.780 So, just to make sure that I got this right, the enemy will justify that, though.

01:45:43.520 Right?

01:45:45.300 Yes.

01:45:45.820 I don't know if they'll justify that, but...

01:45:47.340 But they'll do it.

01:45:48.080 I mean, depending, sure.

01:45:48.640 And you just won't do it.

01:45:51.360 No.

01:45:52.360 So then, it seems to me like having women in the military under your command probably wouldn't be a very good idea,

01:45:58.980 because they're going to get graped.

01:46:00.000 I don't know how commanding my soldiers to grape their women would prevent the women in my military from getting graped.

01:46:07.520 Well, I'm just explaining to you.

01:46:09.300 I'm not telling you that you're making an immoral decision.

01:46:12.840 You're not.

01:46:14.000 Right?

01:46:14.360 What I'm telling you is that, under your view, even if you're in command, you still would acknowledge that the enemy is going to grape your soldiers.

01:46:20.780 Yes.

01:46:23.260 You know, just like I would acknowledge that the enemy could kill my soldiers.

01:46:26.920 They're going to kill your soldiers, for sure.

01:46:28.280 Yeah.

01:46:28.700 But they're also going to grape your female soldiers.

01:46:30.760 Mm-hmm.

01:46:31.020 So, do you think they have an advantage if their military is mostly men and yours is co-ed in infantry combat?

01:46:39.480 Again, I think it would depend on other factors, you know, like access to resources, strategy.

01:46:44.160 You have access to the same resources, roughly.

01:46:46.260 That's not, that's just an equalizer.

01:46:48.520 Like, that's not actual real combat or, like, the real structure of it.

01:46:53.880 What do you mean?

01:46:54.240 I mean, like I've said before, what good is brute force strength if you don't have water and food?

01:47:01.480 No, I mean, you have access to roughly the same amount of resources, you and the enemy.

01:47:06.320 Right.

01:47:07.420 You're just equalizing it.

01:47:08.780 That's my whole point.

01:47:10.480 Yeah.

01:47:11.040 I'm talking about water and food.

01:47:12.380 But that's not real life.

01:47:13.620 Yeah.

01:47:14.240 It's real life that most of the time when professional militaries are fighting with each other, they have water and food.

01:47:20.120 What do you mean?

01:47:20.720 It's not.

01:47:21.420 That can be a real hurdle for a lot of military.

01:47:23.620 It can be.

01:47:24.240 Military militaries is making sure that they still have access to water and food.

01:47:27.060 But it is the case that most of the time professional militaries have access to water and food.

01:47:31.700 Most of the time.

01:47:32.260 It would depend on the conditions.

01:47:34.180 Yeah, sure.

01:47:34.700 It depends on the conditions.

01:47:35.780 But you have significant advantages to having all-male soldiers, right?

01:47:39.140 That is an important tenant.

01:47:41.240 Sure.

01:47:41.600 It's not just brute force strength.

01:47:43.020 It is strategy.

01:47:43.560 It's mostly brute force strength.

01:47:45.040 It's access to resources.

01:47:46.780 And who do you think has the ability to have longevity in conditions which are extremely hot,

01:47:52.940 extremely cold, that fluctuate all the time, that require a sense of physical readiness?

01:48:00.500 Which sex do you think?

01:48:01.620 I mean, men.

01:48:02.040 Yeah, men.

01:48:02.560 Yeah.

01:48:02.700 So, wouldn't you be advantaged if you didn't waste resources on training females for physical combat when you could instead train males for that?

01:48:13.320 Yeah, in some sense.

01:48:15.020 So then, again, why the hell do you want women in combat in the military?

01:48:20.380 Gary, it's silly.

01:48:22.200 I mean, if they have the capacity to perform, I mean, obviously, we're already looking at there is going to be kind of a filter for men in general.

01:48:31.940 But, I mean, you're right in terms of if we're looking for the elite within this specific one area, then that is going to be men.

01:48:39.500 Yeah, so then if you have access to men, you're going to be spending X amount of money on soldiers.

01:48:44.820 Why would you sink the same amount of money into a female for combat if you could sink that money into a man for combat?

01:48:50.880 Well, I mean, we've already established that within this kind of level of infantry that...

01:48:56.000 It should be men.

01:48:57.040 It's going to be men.

01:48:58.100 Just because of the...

01:48:59.540 Yes, it's going to be men and it should be men because they're going to be better at it, right?

01:49:04.100 Sure.

01:49:04.640 Okay, then what privilege do they get?

01:49:07.940 What privilege does who get?

01:49:09.500 Do these men get because women aren't able to do these jobs?

01:49:13.600 What privileges should these men get?

01:49:17.260 In terms of...

01:49:19.020 Like, rights that they get there?

01:49:21.060 These specific men?

01:49:23.200 Well, just men in general.

01:49:24.440 All men can be drafted.

01:49:25.180 Wait, why would all men...

01:49:26.420 Because all men can be drafted and sent into combat.

01:49:29.020 Well, again, going from special infantry to draft is very different.

01:49:34.360 No, it's not.

01:49:34.960 Yes, it is.

01:49:35.460 Okay, well, let's take a look at the Ukraine.

01:49:37.100 I mean, do you think...

01:49:37.940 In the Ukraine right now, men can be drafted up until age 65.

01:49:40.360 They're not being drafted.

01:49:41.260 They are being drafted up until age 65.

01:49:43.120 They're not.

01:49:44.080 They are.

01:49:44.700 The last draft that happened was in the 70s.

01:49:47.140 In the Ukraine?

01:49:48.700 Yes.

01:49:49.180 A man has not been drafted since the 70s.

01:49:51.560 Oh, we're talking about the Ukraine government.

01:49:53.560 Yes.

01:49:54.100 Oh, I'm sorry.

01:49:54.600 I thought we were talking about the United States.

01:49:55.860 Yes.

01:49:56.580 I said in the Ukraine.

01:49:58.100 Okay.

01:49:58.540 In the Ukraine, men can be drafted up to 65.

01:50:00.280 Well, I disagree with the draft.

01:50:02.120 Okay.

01:50:02.620 Got it.

01:50:03.280 That's great you disagree with it.

01:50:04.860 Mm-hmm.

01:50:05.540 But the only people right now who can be drafted are who?

01:50:08.780 Men.

01:50:09.200 And the reasons that we just went over previously determines that the reason that we want to draft men

01:50:13.800 is for these exact reasons.

01:50:15.920 Because they're stronger.

01:50:16.960 They're better in combat.

01:50:18.280 These are the positions we would need them in.

01:50:19.940 And because these are the positions we need them in, women are excluded from those roles.

01:50:24.640 Well, again, going from special infantry to just military bodies, obviously more is just going to be better.

01:50:31.480 Why?

01:50:32.200 More takes way more resources.

01:50:34.260 More is not better.

01:50:34.900 Yeah, but numbers is also another strategy that wins war.

01:50:39.560 If you have more soldiers than the other team.

01:50:43.120 Yeah, sure.

01:50:44.160 That can be helpful.

01:50:45.160 But it's more helpful to have a very well-trained, very combat-ready military.

01:50:49.580 If you're drafting, they're not going to be well-trained.

01:50:52.320 Yeah, we've won wars with draftees.

01:50:54.460 They were plenty well-trained.

01:50:56.360 So the thing is, it's like, that's incorrect.

01:50:58.400 But being trained and being well-trained are two different things.

01:51:00.640 I guess.

01:51:01.140 You had specialists too, but the point is they were very much trained and they very much kicked the shit out of half the world.

01:51:06.040 So that was with draftees.

01:51:07.720 Okay.

01:51:08.300 So the thing is, is we've already established that men are far better in these roles than women.

01:51:12.860 Men ought to be in these roles and not women.

01:51:15.340 This is by your own logic.

01:51:17.060 So what privileges should men get considering they can be drafted into these roles and women cannot be?

01:51:22.320 I mean, if we're going on a society based on like, this is always going to be the outcome and this is a necessity, I don't think necessarily there would.

01:51:34.820 I'm not against sending men to go to war against their will.

01:51:39.100 You are against it or not?

01:51:44.180 I am against sending men to go to war against their will.

01:51:47.520 Oh, I thought you said not.

01:51:49.040 Oh, maybe I misspoke.

01:51:49.880 I'm sorry.

01:51:50.340 Yeah.

01:51:50.540 But just to clarify for the audience, you mean you are against it?

01:51:56.100 Yes.

01:51:56.440 I would want them to elect to go.

01:52:00.180 And so what happens if nobody goes like they didn't want to in the Ukraine?

01:52:04.380 Does Russia take the Ukraine over?

01:52:06.460 Does Russia take over Ukraine?

01:52:08.380 I mean, I think it would, again, depend on other resources available.

01:52:13.600 If there are other militaries, if there are other...

01:52:15.640 There's no other militaries that aren't going to step in?

01:52:18.000 Then, yeah, that would happen.

01:52:19.180 But, I mean, again, forcing men to go.

01:52:21.820 I mean, you can't force them to fight.

01:52:23.940 Yes, you can force men to fight.

01:52:25.840 How?

01:52:26.400 The same way they did under communism.

01:52:28.340 They say, run at that machine gun nest, and if you turn around, we will kill you.

01:52:32.560 And that's exactly what they did.

01:52:35.280 Oh, I mean, then...

01:52:37.840 What they did was they lined up thousands of Soviet soldiers, and they handed them a rifle.

01:52:43.820 They said, if you die, the guy behind you, pick up the rifle, reload, and continue to go.

01:52:47.820 Sure, sure.

01:52:48.440 And if they turned around and came back, if they ran away, men with machine guns were waiting for them and mowed them all down.

01:52:54.240 Okay.

01:52:55.200 So, yeah, you can definitely force men to fight.

01:52:57.100 I mean, that's been done time and time again.

01:52:59.080 If you ran away in World War II, you were a traitor and you were shot.

01:53:03.380 That's forcing you to fight.

01:53:05.280 If you run away from combat, you get shot.

01:53:06.740 Right.

01:53:07.140 I'm saying, obviously, if they don't fight, they die.

01:53:10.540 Like, that's clear.

01:53:12.040 But, like, if they think they're going to die already...

01:53:18.020 I'm confused.

01:53:20.760 You know, going to war, they're like, I'm pretty much going to die already, so I'm just going to try and escape so I can avoid that.

01:53:25.660 And if they kill me, oh, then the outcome's the same.

01:53:27.800 Well, that's not what happens.

01:53:28.700 I guess my issue...

01:53:30.480 You're compelled and pressed into service.

01:53:32.520 Like, you can't do anything.

01:53:33.760 If you don't sign up for the draft as a man in the United States, you're not supposed to be able to vote.

01:53:40.040 I know.

01:53:40.920 So, then how come if women don't sign up for the draft, they get to vote?

01:53:44.300 That's bullshit.

01:53:45.500 Well, again, I'm against the draft.

01:53:47.980 Yeah, I got it.

01:53:49.040 So, then just nobody defends the nation.

01:53:51.240 Well, I think, obviously, within America, we have a huge society that's very big on militarism, which is why no one has been drafted.

01:53:59.520 Nobody's been drafted because we haven't fought a professional war where we had hundreds of thousands of body bags being sent home.

01:54:04.300 That's why nobody's been drafted.

01:54:06.060 Well, sure.

01:54:06.500 But also, I would say people are joining more than they were back then.

01:54:11.700 No.

01:54:12.280 I think that the rates per population...

01:54:14.380 Remember, at the time, I think there was only 150 million people.

01:54:17.840 It was like half the people at the time than there is now.

01:54:20.760 So, no, I think proportionally, plenty of people were joining the military.

01:54:23.980 I don't know if it's at the same rates because you had different benefits for it, but plenty of people were joining the military.

01:54:29.740 Okay.

01:54:30.300 The thing is, though, is that we just haven't had a war where hundreds of thousands of people die.

01:54:34.680 You have to replace your soldiers, right?

01:54:37.240 Sure.

01:54:37.680 Do you think people are going to be more or less likely to join if people are dying in mass?

01:54:43.380 Oh, they'll be less likely to join.

01:54:44.360 Yeah, they'll be less likely.

01:54:45.280 So, then, what do you do?

01:54:46.680 You compel service.

01:54:49.020 Like, what else can you do other than compel service?

01:54:53.560 I mean, not go to war.

01:54:56.980 Yeah, but you can't...

01:54:58.860 Why do you think you can decide those things?

01:55:01.280 Like, you can't make the decision.

01:55:02.700 Because, like, I think there is motivation, obviously, between countries who are engaging in war and the reasons behind those.

01:55:10.880 Yeah, but you can't solve those reasons.

01:55:12.980 Like, I'm not disagreeing with you that under, like, the idea of patriarchy, that there is going to be some dependence on men.

01:55:19.980 Because, obviously, I would think that still...

01:55:22.180 Under the idea of matriarchy, too.

01:55:23.900 No, I don't think that male violence would be pervasive.

01:55:27.780 I mean, when do you think patriarchy...

01:55:29.580 How can...

01:55:30.180 One second.

01:55:31.000 Okay, go ahead.

01:55:31.540 When do you think patriarchy originated?

01:55:33.720 I think it's always been the case.

01:55:35.400 Yeah, I would say patriarchy originated, depending, again, on what aspect, you know, what country we're looking at or what region, would be between, like, 8,000 B.C. and 5,000 B.C.

01:55:48.540 And when do you think...

01:55:49.600 What do you think our oldest written record is?

01:55:54.240 I believe it's Egyptian scribes, which I think is 5,000.

01:55:58.400 5,000.

01:56:01.560 Yeah, isn't that when...

01:56:03.520 The Sumerian?

01:56:04.920 Yes.

01:56:05.560 And isn't that when they worship female gods?

01:56:07.280 No.

01:56:08.060 Anu was a male god.

01:56:09.920 No, it was a female god.

01:56:11.200 No, Anu was a male god.

01:56:12.620 Promise.

01:56:13.860 No.

01:56:15.540 She was the good mother.

01:56:17.280 That's not Eshu.

01:56:18.120 Eshu.

01:56:18.800 It's Anu.

01:56:19.780 I'm pretty confident Anu was a male god.

01:56:24.280 I-N-A-N-N-A?

01:56:25.400 Yeah, like Anunnaki that comes from the god, the male god Anu?

01:56:28.920 Like the exaltation of Ananu?

01:56:31.480 No, it's just Anu, I think, Anu.

01:56:33.480 Yeah, the exaltation...

01:56:34.220 It means god.

01:56:34.700 It just means god.

01:56:35.760 Well, the exaltation of Ananu is thought to be the first poem, and that's a female god.

01:56:41.540 What do you mean, El?

01:56:42.320 El is another god.

01:56:43.680 In fact, I mean, if you're talking...

01:56:45.060 Okay, what about...

01:56:45.780 In fact, I actually have a list here of Egyptian gods.

01:56:49.380 Well...

01:56:49.620 I'm sorry, pre-3,500-year gods.

01:56:51.600 Let me give you the list real quick.

01:56:53.120 Sure.

01:56:54.100 Just because I brought it with me.

01:56:55.200 Hang on real quick, Brian, before you get into the super chats.

01:56:57.560 Oh, no.

01:56:58.080 While he's looking that up, you brought up the term patriarchy.

01:57:01.280 Can you just define the term for the audience?

01:57:05.600 Yeah, male supremacy, domination, and dependency.

01:57:09.060 Okay.

01:57:09.560 Male supremacy, domination, and what was the last one?

01:57:14.640 Dependency.

01:57:15.060 Yeah, I was right.

01:57:15.880 Okay.

01:57:16.000 Anu, Mesopotamia, Sumeria, 5,000 B.C., king of the gods.

01:57:20.060 Ennil, Mesopotamia, Sumerian.

01:57:22.040 Enki, Mesopotamia.

01:57:24.980 Peta, pre-dynastic Egyptian, 6,000 B.C.

01:57:30.280 Pre-Shupati, El.

01:57:32.040 I said El.

01:57:32.920 Pre-Canaan.

01:57:33.880 Pre-Leventeen, 3,900 B.C.

01:57:36.200 I mean, the list goes on and on and on and on of male gods.

01:57:41.100 All right.

01:57:41.300 I'm not saying there are male gods, but wasn't that all before?

01:57:43.780 It's all before your time frame of 3,500 years ago, yeah?

01:57:59.420 No, I said between, Patriarch was established between 8,000 B.C. and 5,000 B.C., so that

01:58:06.140 would be post-patriarchy.

01:58:07.280 Okay.

01:58:07.700 And now look up when the Epic of Gilgamesh happened.

01:58:11.700 Okay.

01:58:12.140 Because what I'm trying to determine is where you're getting your evidence that patriarchy

01:58:16.220 happened 8,000 years ago.

01:58:19.660 When do you think our oldest written manuscript comes from?

01:58:23.120 Well, I don't think, like, obviously there's going to be a difference between how we establish

01:58:28.340 culture in prehistoric times versus historic times.

01:58:31.520 And obviously historic would be defined as written.

01:58:33.960 Yeah, so when we're talking about things which are written, what written accounts are there

01:58:38.580 of non-patriarchal societies?

01:58:42.220 What?

01:58:42.760 The Amazons are a myth?

01:58:46.380 Here, one second.

01:58:47.500 Go ahead.

01:58:47.740 I think it's Egyptian, the, can I know how to spell it?

01:58:52.160 Uh, you can do your thing now if I can look this up.

01:59:09.160 And if you, if you need us to look anything up on our end, we'd be happy to.

01:59:12.720 Are you looking for, like, a list of languages by the first written account?

01:59:15.680 I'm looking for something really specific, and I can't remember how it's spelled.

01:59:20.060 Because we have Egyptian, Sumerian, Akkadian.

01:59:23.800 She's looking for Egyptian matriarchies.

01:59:27.580 Oh, okay.

01:59:28.300 Mm-hmm.

01:59:29.740 Is that what you're looking for?

01:59:30.840 Because we can...

01:59:31.460 Um, there's a specific, uh, written scripture that talked about, um, like, if you are married

01:59:37.740 to your wife, like, adorn her, uh, submit to her.

01:59:42.620 Is it an Egyptian text?

01:59:43.760 Yes.

01:59:44.420 Okay.

01:59:46.500 Yeah, but that, that could, that could be based around mutual submission as well, which

01:59:51.320 still wouldn't be matriarchy.

01:59:54.220 Um, I, I mean, if you want me to read the whole thing, I can.

01:59:57.480 Are you, what is it called?

01:59:58.680 Are you referencing the Narm, Narmor Palette?

02:00:02.120 No.

02:00:02.620 Apologies if I'm saying that wrong.

02:00:06.640 Narmor Palette.

02:00:11.700 Um, if you want to do your thing, Brian, just give me a second.

02:00:13.620 Yeah, sure.

02:00:13.760 Um, guys, if just a reminder here, if you want, uh, we have a hundred dollar reads.

02:00:19.020 If you want to get, ask a question to, uh, either of the panelists.

02:00:23.480 Also, if you want a hundred percent of your contribution, then we can do reads via Venmo

02:00:28.080 and Cash App too.

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02:00:48.180 It's a quick, free, easy way to support the show every single month.

02:00:52.800 Also, we have, uh, let's see here.

02:00:55.940 We have a goal on the YouTube side.

02:00:58.640 I, I changed it.

02:01:00.000 It's, uh, so you have, we have about another two hours left for the goal.

02:01:05.620 If you want to reach it, uh, pineapple pizza party, which is Andrew Wilson's favorite, uh,

02:01:11.680 pizza flavor.

02:01:12.860 And we'll also do a roast session, a roast segment, uh, at the end of the show, if we

02:01:20.020 hit that goal.

02:01:21.740 So send it in guys, send it in.

02:01:24.080 Andrew's, uh, dying to have some pineapple pizza guys.

02:01:26.780 So, you know, it's his, you know, you gotta have at least one.

02:01:30.240 Not eating pineapple pizza.

02:01:31.480 Andrew, I will, I will use force doctrine.

02:01:34.660 I will use, I'm going to force it.

02:01:37.900 Uh, just kidding.

02:01:39.480 Joke, joking, joking.

02:01:40.780 Um, so yeah, we got the Egyptians.

02:01:43.660 It's, uh, Maxim's, uh, Fatah Hoteb.

02:01:47.360 Do you want us to pull it up or you're just, you just want to reference what it is?

02:01:51.300 Um, I mean, it's thought to be, uh, one second.

02:01:54.960 Sure.

02:01:57.800 Really quick while you're still working on that.

02:01:59.460 Yeah, we have Ogle with, uh, gifted 50 memberships.

02:02:02.580 Hey, Ogle, uh, thank you so much, man.

02:02:05.000 Really appreciate your, uh, your get 50 gifted whatever memberships.

02:02:09.540 Thank you so much, man.

02:02:10.320 Thank you.

02:02:10.660 Thank you.

02:02:11.780 Sorry.

02:02:12.180 Go ahead.

02:02:12.540 Uh, it's a book more than 5,000 years old and possibly the oldest book in the world.

02:02:15.760 Um, and, and essentially talks about worshiping, uh, if you are wise, stay home, love your wife,

02:02:21.980 don't argue with her, feed her, adorn her, massage her.

02:02:25.380 Okay.

02:02:26.180 That doesn't say submit to her.

02:02:27.880 Uh, I mean, I don't have the full, uh, section right here.

02:02:31.660 Mm-hmm.

02:02:32.880 Um.

02:02:33.400 And what is the evidence that this is a matriarchal society?

02:02:37.940 Uh, uh, well, obviously the written text.

02:02:39.920 Um, and then, like I said before, the exaltation of Enya-nya, um, that's thought to be one of

02:02:47.980 the oldest poems, which is, uh, reflecting the Sumerian goddess.

02:02:51.360 Do you agree that Christianity is patriarchal?

02:02:53.860 Yes.

02:02:54.420 Okay.

02:02:54.960 Is it true in, uh, Christianity that we elevate and venerate the Virgin Mary?

02:03:02.360 Um, I don't know what you mean by venerate.

02:03:04.700 We venerate.

02:03:05.740 We say prayers.

02:03:07.260 We...

02:03:07.580 I mean, sure.

02:03:08.400 Yeah, we venerate.

02:03:08.920 I don't know.

02:03:09.380 We venerate, we venerate the Virgin Mary, right?

02:03:11.160 Okay.

02:03:11.560 Yeah.

02:03:11.800 So the thing is, is that even if it is the case that there's female goddesses, just like

02:03:15.660 there were in other pagan traditions, that doesn't mean that that's a matriarchal society.

02:03:21.320 Well, how would you define a matriarchal society?

02:03:23.120 Women are in charge.

02:03:25.420 I would say it would be...

02:03:26.100 Rule of the father is patriarchy.

02:03:28.880 Well, um, so I, I would say prior to, um, 8,000 BC, we lived in more egalitarian society,

02:03:36.640 um, leaning more towards matriarchy because of paternity uncertainty, um, as well as essentially

02:03:45.100 just the relationship within tribes in order to, uh, guarantee...

02:03:48.420 How does paternity uncertainty assist with your point that these are matriarchal societies?

02:03:53.060 Um, well, I said egalitarians who essentially were men and women built society together.

02:03:58.740 I would say they would lead towards matriarchy because obviously at that time, survival of,

02:04:04.560 uh, tribes is most important and obviously having children that survive and the care,

02:04:09.900 caregiving and nurturing of children, uh, would have been fulfilled by the role of women.

02:04:14.660 Yeah, well, what, what makes you think that women had a choice in that?

02:04:18.720 I'm not saying that they did.

02:04:19.920 Yeah, so then it's not matriarchal then.

02:04:22.660 Um, it, it absolutely...

02:04:25.880 What, what, I, I said egalitarian several times.

02:04:28.080 It's not even egalitarian.

02:04:28.880 It's essentially, uh, men and women working together to build society.

02:04:32.020 If women don't have a choice, do you think that that's them working with men?

02:04:35.420 What do you mean having a choice?

02:04:36.860 Like, why, if man goes bonk on head and you get graped, how is that a choice?

02:04:42.060 How's that equality and egalitarianism?

02:04:44.880 Well, um, I, I don't know why you're just assuming.

02:04:50.180 I, I would say that, like, the, the idea of rape, or I'm sorry, of grape became, uh,

02:04:54.800 into existence, like, with agriculture.

02:04:57.140 What?

02:04:58.180 What do you, so you think that men weren't graping before then?

02:05:02.380 No, I don't.

02:05:03.360 Oh, and you're facing, what's your evidence for that?

02:05:05.660 I don't think they understood men's role when it came to how children, how women became

02:05:10.920 pregnant and how children were created.

02:05:12.620 What did that have to do with them just being horny?

02:05:14.600 That, well, I, I don't think men grape because they're horny.

02:05:19.560 Why not?

02:05:20.380 What do you mean?

02:05:20.920 So, wait a second.

02:05:21.840 Let me get this right.

02:05:22.500 Because rape is an act of humiliation and...

02:05:24.440 So, primitive, primitive man, right?

02:05:27.760 Um, you agree with me that homo sapiens have been around for about 100,000 years?

02:05:32.080 I think it's 300,000.

02:05:33.480 At least 100,000.

02:05:34.460 Yeah.

02:05:34.820 Okay, but we didn't come in, so we actually operated the same way we are right now.

02:05:39.180 We have the same brains, same physicality, basically same everything.

02:05:43.400 Differences in height, differences in smaller things like that.

02:05:46.440 Sure.

02:05:46.800 But we have the same capacity.

02:05:48.460 So, do you say within that 100,000 years, this, let's just say, for the sake of argument,

02:05:54.140 but you know what, we'll do the 300,000.

02:05:56.700 Within this 300,000 years, only 10,000 years ago, men figured out the technology of grape?

02:06:01.760 Uh, yeah.

02:06:04.680 I don't think, like, if you don't know that sex creates children, then your whole theory

02:06:11.960 is that men are graping so that children can come into existence.

02:06:15.540 That's not my theory.

02:06:16.460 That's your theory.

02:06:17.120 Hold on.

02:06:17.520 I think men...

02:06:18.020 That's not my theory.

02:06:18.480 Hide it in the sources.

02:06:21.400 Go to the stream yard.

02:06:22.920 Click the eyeball.

02:06:24.020 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

02:06:25.760 Stay in OBS.

02:06:27.240 Look at the sources tab.

02:06:29.600 Just hide stream yard.

02:06:31.900 Just hide it.

02:06:32.720 I apologize.

02:06:33.420 We had a technical difficulty.

02:06:36.080 You guys continue.

02:06:36.740 Yeah, I think that men grap because they're horny, too.

02:06:39.760 I disagree.

02:06:40.340 One sec, guys.

02:06:41.280 Oh, oh, you disagree.

02:06:43.680 Hold on.

02:06:44.460 Can you hide it here, too?

02:06:45.760 Sorry.

02:06:50.800 Yeah, so let's find...

02:06:51.940 Let's test that and see if you actually do disagree.

02:06:55.380 Does every single time you have sex with a woman require consent?

02:06:59.360 Well, I would say sex implicitly, by definition, would be consensual.

02:07:03.820 If it's not, then it's grape.

02:07:06.620 So then every instance of sex would require consent?

02:07:08.880 Correct.

02:07:09.140 Okay, so if a husband wakes up in the morning and he has a boner and he leans over and starts

02:07:13.820 banging his wife while she's asleep, is he graping her?

02:07:16.500 Yes.

02:07:17.420 He is.

02:07:19.100 Why is he doing that?

02:07:21.220 Because he's horny?

02:07:22.200 I think because he assumes he has consent.

02:07:24.880 Yeah, so he's horny.

02:07:26.500 So therefore, if it is the case that he's still graping her, even if he assumes he has consent

02:07:31.720 and does not, that he's graping her because he's horny, right?

02:07:35.240 No, I don't think that he thinks he's graping her.

02:07:37.820 Doesn't, but that has nothing to do with the fact of the matter.

02:07:41.840 You said that men do not grap.

02:07:43.360 Well, the motivation, the motivation behind grape is not that they're horny.

02:07:47.200 That's definitely his motivation behind that grape.

02:07:49.960 No, because he doesn't think he's graping her.

02:07:52.020 Why would it matter whether he thinks he's doing that or not?

02:07:54.500 That determines the motivation, right?

02:07:56.660 You're saying that men have to think that they're doing the act in order for them to be motivated

02:08:01.540 to do the act?

02:08:02.780 No, not at all.

02:08:03.520 I'm not saying that men don't commit grape unknowingly.

02:08:11.340 Okay, so this guy is graping his wife, which, by the way, means that I've graped my wife

02:08:17.420 I don't know how many times.

02:08:18.540 That's a weird thing to admit.

02:08:21.360 No, I'm fine with it.

02:08:23.200 You're fine saying that you've graped your wife?

02:08:24.760 Yeah, if you think that me rolling over in the morning and she's asleep and waking her up

02:08:29.680 with sex, it's great.

02:08:30.880 Well, I mean, she's unconscious?

02:08:33.120 She's asleep, for sure.

02:08:34.380 That's unconscious, right?

02:08:35.540 Sure.

02:08:37.120 Yeah.

02:08:37.720 If she had too much to drink and passed out?

02:08:40.940 Yeah, we've done that, too, when we're both drunk, yeah.

02:08:43.080 Well, I mean, where she passed out.

02:08:44.620 Yeah.

02:08:45.100 She's also graped me by this metric, too.

02:08:46.820 She's woken me up with sex.

02:08:48.480 I didn't consent.

02:08:49.440 I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying here.

02:08:51.540 Are you saying that you've graped your wife while she's been passed out?

02:08:55.340 I'm saying, well, my wife has been sleeping.

02:08:57.320 I've woken her up with sex.

02:08:58.900 Mm-hmm.

02:08:59.620 Many times.

02:09:00.660 And vice versa.

02:09:02.360 So, did we grape each other?

02:09:04.560 By definition, yeah.

02:09:05.780 Yeah.

02:09:06.120 So, we're both.

02:09:07.360 She grapes me sometimes.

02:09:09.200 I grape her sometimes.

02:09:10.240 I think force penetration is still grape.

02:09:13.320 A little grape here.

02:09:14.320 A little grape there.

02:09:15.040 She grapes a little.

02:09:16.000 I grape a little.

02:09:16.860 That's weird.

02:09:17.520 We all do a little bit of graphing.

02:09:19.140 Why?

02:09:20.180 Totally not weird, by the way.

02:09:21.920 I mean, would you continue?

02:09:26.640 What's that?

02:09:27.220 Would you continue if she didn't wake up?

02:09:30.520 I don't know.

02:09:32.360 Half the time, I'm drunk, right?

02:09:35.140 So, you don't know if you would continue?

02:09:38.520 No, I don't think I would continue if she didn't wake up.

02:09:40.440 Why?

02:09:41.400 I don't know.

02:09:41.700 It's less fun.

02:09:44.860 It's right.

02:09:45.700 So, obviously, you want your partner to be conscious.

02:09:49.900 Enthusiastic.

02:09:50.320 Yeah, but she wasn't conscious when we started.

02:09:52.960 I understand that.

02:09:54.080 Yeah, so, a little grape there.

02:09:55.440 A little grape here.

02:09:56.660 Then why not just wake her up?

02:10:00.220 Why do I need?

02:10:01.200 I am waking her up.

02:10:02.700 With my penis.

02:10:03.660 Why not just wake her up before penetration?

02:10:05.900 With my penis.

02:10:06.720 This is crazy.

02:10:07.940 Why is that crazy?

02:10:09.400 Do you know how common it is that men and women wake each other up?

02:10:12.740 Like a man will be woke up by his girlfriend?

02:10:14.280 I don't care how common it is.

02:10:15.760 Yeah.

02:10:16.200 What does that have to do with anything?

02:10:17.360 What makes it crazy?

02:10:20.900 Because they're unconscious.

02:10:22.480 So?

02:10:23.820 Do you know what implied consent is?

02:10:27.280 I do know what implied consent is.

02:10:29.440 There's an implied consent when you get married.

02:10:31.840 It's implied that you're consenting to sex.

02:10:34.660 I don't think it's necessarily implied.

02:10:36.880 Then you have to bite the bullet that my wife has raped me any number of times.

02:10:39.840 I've told you.

02:10:40.660 I already agree with you.

02:10:41.640 And you think that that's rational?

02:10:43.320 That it's rational?

02:10:44.380 To say what?

02:10:45.100 Do you think that I'm emotionally scarred because my wife rapes me?

02:10:47.880 Or grapes me?

02:10:48.480 Oh, no.

02:10:48.800 No.

02:10:49.260 But is she emotionally scarred by me raping her?

02:10:52.080 I mean, I don't know.

02:10:53.060 Probably not.

02:10:53.660 So then rape can just be a neutral act where it doesn't harm anybody?

02:10:58.100 I mean, I definitely do think it can harm in certain capacities.

02:11:02.180 Sure.

02:11:02.440 Even if you're not consciously aware of it.

02:11:03.840 Yeah, but it's not harming anybody here, right?

02:11:05.840 So, hang on.

02:11:06.600 Grape can be morally neutral.

02:11:08.120 I just want to make sure we're clear.

02:11:09.200 No.

02:11:09.220 What would make it morally bad?

02:11:10.880 Demonstrate the harm.

02:11:12.040 Who's being harmed?

02:11:14.420 Well, I think in some capacity, it would be the same harm that would come of someone

02:11:20.420 engaging with someone who is like dead.

02:11:26.000 What?

02:11:26.080 I think the psychological aspect of wanting to-

02:11:30.680 Demonstrate it.

02:11:31.520 Demonstrate that there's harm.

02:11:32.680 One second.

02:11:33.000 Okay.

02:11:33.720 I think the psychological aspect of wanting to engage in intercourse with someone who is

02:11:38.120 unconscious is highly harmful.

02:11:43.260 Demonstrate it.

02:11:44.080 Demonstrate what?

02:11:44.900 How?

02:11:45.480 How?

02:11:46.120 So, if my wife-

02:11:46.920 You just got done saying, if my wife wakes me up-

02:11:49.320 It's classified as what is like paraphilic.

02:11:51.080 Help me out with this.

02:11:52.220 I'm totally asleep.

02:11:53.760 Okay?

02:11:54.020 Completely asleep and I wake up and my wife is giving me a blow job.

02:11:57.900 I wake up to that.

02:11:59.280 Okay?

02:12:00.460 What's the harm?

02:12:01.840 How have I been harmed?

02:12:03.240 Tell me how this possibly is harmful to me.

02:12:06.980 I'm not saying it could be harmful to you.

02:12:09.480 So, then grape is morally neutral sometimes.

02:12:13.500 No, I don't think it's morally neutral.

02:12:15.620 Like, I don't think like necessarily-

02:12:16.940 Then what's the immoral part here?

02:12:18.360 I don't think harm necessarily has to come to the victim in order for it to be-

02:12:21.760 Then what would make this morally bad?

02:12:25.060 What makes it morally bad?

02:12:25.960 I told you the psychology of wanting to engage in intercourse with someone who is unconscious.

02:12:33.740 Okay.

02:12:34.240 Why is it-

02:12:35.080 You haven't explained how that's harmful or how that's bad.

02:12:38.080 Wait, one second.

02:12:38.680 Would you engage with your wife if she were dead?

02:12:42.680 No, of course not.

02:12:43.760 Why?

02:12:44.020 Because her soul has left her body.

02:12:46.060 She's not a person anymore.

02:12:47.600 Her soul has left her body.

02:12:49.340 She's not a human being anymore.

02:12:51.320 She's-

02:12:51.580 It would be like fucking dirt.

02:12:53.120 Can you give me like the secular position?

02:12:56.940 Why do I need to give you any other position than that?

02:12:59.100 How is it?

02:12:59.300 I think it's-

02:13:00.320 You need to give me from your position instead of obfuscating what actually makes it immoral.

02:13:05.460 I'm trying to give it an analogy.

02:13:07.220 Yeah, well, can you just tell me this?

02:13:08.960 What makes it immoral for my wife to wake me up with a blowjob?

02:13:12.300 What makes that immoral?

02:13:14.340 By the way, have you ever woken your ex-husband?

02:13:17.220 Do you ever wake him up like that?

02:13:18.660 No.

02:13:19.680 Never?

02:13:20.420 Never happened once?

02:13:22.260 Not that I-

02:13:23.140 No.

02:13:23.800 No?

02:13:25.020 All right.

02:13:27.680 But you realize this is very common, right?

02:13:32.680 Sure, yes.

02:13:33.740 And so just people are just commonly graping each other?

02:13:37.260 Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of instances where grape happens, where people don't think they are graping someone.

02:13:42.700 So-

02:13:43.080 That's a part of like miscommunication theory.

02:13:45.720 Okay, great.

02:13:46.480 I just want to make sure I get the correct, or the answer to this question correct.

02:13:52.240 What is the actual harm?

02:13:54.280 And demonstrate it for me logically, please.

02:13:58.480 Or the immorality.

02:13:59.920 Why is it immoral for my wife to do that to me?

02:14:02.600 Um, well, I mean, obviously, if we're talking about consent, I think the basis for that is the Fry's model, which is freely given, reversible, informed, enthusiastic, and specific.

02:14:20.020 And so, obviously, it doesn't meet certain aspects of those criteria.

02:14:23.840 Why is that immoral, though?

02:14:25.220 I mean, we're-

02:14:25.720 I like it.

02:14:26.400 I like it when she does that.

02:14:28.800 What is immoral about her doing that?

02:14:31.140 I want her to do that.

02:14:33.280 I'm not conscious at the time.

02:14:34.580 That's true.

02:14:35.640 But I'm very fucking enthusiastic that I want to wake up that way.

02:14:39.760 Very enthusiastic about it.

02:14:46.740 Again, I think pleasuring someone who is unconscious is psychologically concerning.

02:14:54.200 I'm sorry about your mind state of concern.

02:14:57.320 That's very Karen-ish of you, but can you tell me why it's immoral?

02:14:59.660 It's sort of a Karen-ish of you.

02:15:00.880 It's very Karen-ish.

02:15:01.360 Your concern's very Karen-ish, but why is it immoral?

02:15:04.380 Um, I would place it under, like, a paraphilic sexual behavior.

02:15:08.900 So, all of the men out there whose wives have woken them up with sex, all of those women are pedophilic-

02:15:16.740 or, I'm sorry.

02:15:18.080 Paraphilic.

02:15:18.820 Paraphilic.

02:15:20.560 Um, I think the act at sex is-

02:15:21.640 They want to have sex with dead?

02:15:22.980 They want to have sex with dead people?

02:15:24.820 Well, I mean, paraphilic is just defined as, like, atypical sexual preferences.

02:15:29.540 And, yeah, to, like, want to have sex with someone who's-

02:15:33.180 You were saying it was necrophilic.

02:15:34.140 Well, necrophilia falls under paraphilic.

02:15:35.980 Okay, so-

02:15:36.520 So does, like, pedophiles.

02:15:37.800 So does necrophilia.

02:15:40.020 So you think that there's tons and tons of women out there who are necrophiles?

02:15:42.540 Well, obviously, like, pedophiles and, uh, like, necrophilia are two different things.

02:15:46.900 Paraphilic just means atypical sexual desires.

02:15:50.720 Like, I would classify kink under that.

02:15:52.980 Do you agree with me that tons and tons and tons of women likely wake their man up with

02:15:56.440 some sort of sexual favor?

02:15:57.100 I already did.

02:15:57.780 Yeah, yeah.

02:15:58.260 So then-

02:15:58.540 Like, ask and answer.

02:15:59.320 So then, is that, they're kind of necrophiles?

02:16:02.660 That's not what I'm saying.

02:16:04.800 Well, I don't understand what you're saying.

02:16:06.960 It can't be, by the way, that doesn't make any sense.

02:16:09.120 It can't be uncommon if it's common.

02:16:12.540 Um, well, it's, if we're talking about, like, the, um, experience of, like, atypical sexual

02:16:20.000 behaviors, then, yes, engaging with someone who is unconscious is an atypical.

02:16:26.380 It's not atypical if you're saying it's common.

02:16:28.860 That would be typical.

02:16:30.980 I mean, in terms of, like, a common occurrence, sure.

02:16:34.020 But in terms of, like, a common outcome of intercourse, it's not.

02:16:39.320 Yes, it is.

02:16:40.080 You, you, I'm sorry.

02:16:41.100 I think it's very typical.

02:16:42.220 Like, you, you commonly start intercourse unconscious?

02:16:45.600 That's not what I said.

02:16:46.380 I said it's very typical to do it, though.

02:16:51.220 So, like, I don't typically, uh, eat gourmet caviar.

02:16:56.380 But you would agree with me that it is typical that people do eat gourmet.

02:17:00.680 It's like a typical behavior.

02:17:01.820 You wouldn't say it's atypical to eat gourmet caviar, would you?

02:17:05.020 Again, just because something is common doesn't mean it's typical.

02:17:08.460 What does typical mean?

02:17:09.940 So, I, I think, like, we could talk about frequency of things.

02:17:13.920 Well, let's just make sure we get this right.

02:17:15.200 What does typical mean?

02:17:15.980 I am trying to.

02:17:16.460 I just want to make sure I know what typical means.

02:17:17.660 Sure.

02:17:17.940 One second.

02:17:18.660 I think we can talk about things happening in common frequency.

02:17:22.720 Okay.

02:17:23.080 Um, but in terms of how often things happen outside of that frequency is going to make

02:17:29.180 it, like, so 1% of 4 million is going to be a large number.

02:17:33.780 So, we could say it's common.

02:17:35.400 But in terms of looking at it in a percentage, it's only 1%, so it's atypical.

02:17:40.180 Okay, so I don't understand how, when we're talking about behavior, um, I would say it's

02:17:49.480 atypical.

02:17:49.880 What is it?

02:17:50.440 Okay, then what threshold does it need to meet to become atypical or for behavior, like

02:17:55.100 percentage-wise?

02:17:56.160 I, I don't know.

02:17:57.860 So, then how do you even know what's atypical?

02:18:00.180 I would just say the classification.

02:18:03.640 Uh, do, do you think most people, when they have sex, are, are doing so unconscious?

02:18:07.780 So, like, with an unconscious person?

02:18:09.240 That's not what I said.

02:18:10.160 No.

02:18:10.440 So, so that, that's my, my threshold.

02:18:13.660 Okay, well then, do you think that most people have sex missionary style or doggy style?

02:18:20.800 Most of the time.

02:18:21.720 I have no idea.

02:18:22.700 Well, if you had to guess.

02:18:25.740 Because would that make doggy style atypical?

02:18:29.160 Um, well, no, because again, we're talking about percentages.

02:18:32.160 Right, so then I would need to know what is the percentage before it becomes atypical.

02:18:36.460 Um, I...

02:18:38.640 Don't know.

02:18:39.080 I don't know.

02:18:39.580 Yeah, so then you can't really make the claim it's atypical.

02:18:42.920 Well, then how can we make the claim that anything is atypical?

02:18:45.200 Good, good question.

02:18:46.040 I didn't make the claim it's atypical.

02:18:47.380 I said it's typical.

02:18:47.940 So, you don't, you don't think, like, para, paraphilic sex desires exist?

02:18:52.920 Yeah, I think that we can definitely make claims to that.

02:18:55.460 Yeah.

02:18:55.800 Yeah.

02:18:56.220 Sure.

02:18:56.760 Okay.

02:18:57.260 Sure, but when I, I guess the delineation here we're talking about is just typical versus

02:19:00.960 not typical.

02:19:01.720 I think that it's, if, if you're talking about what is common, I think it's super common

02:19:06.940 that this happens all the time.

02:19:08.580 In terms of volume or in terms of percentage?

02:19:12.620 Um, both.

02:19:14.960 Yeah.

02:19:15.660 I think it's very common.

02:19:17.640 So, you think this is like 50% of sexual interactions?

02:19:21.900 No, no, but I think that 50% of people have had this sexual interaction.

02:19:25.940 But I'm asking in terms of, if we, if we were to classify all sexual interactions, what would

02:19:32.120 this be a common where people start off intercourse with one partner unconscious?

02:19:38.960 No, no, no.

02:19:40.320 It's not, it's not going to be something, it's not going to be, but that doesn't make it not

02:19:44.860 common.

02:19:46.160 You know what I mean?

02:19:47.100 Like, I feel like we're quibbling now.

02:19:49.280 Like we're saying the same thing.

02:19:51.180 I hope we are.

02:19:51.920 But maybe we can semantically, maybe we can semantically get here.

02:19:55.160 I mean, why, why would, okay, we, yeah, we already, we are, you already answered.

02:19:59.980 Because I'm horny.

02:20:01.080 That's why I do it.

02:20:02.140 Well, um.

02:20:03.940 And I enjoy it.

02:20:05.200 I enjoy graping her.

02:20:06.620 I enjoy it.

02:20:07.660 Having sex with someone unconscious?

02:20:09.360 My wife, yeah.

02:20:10.780 Yeah, I like waking her up that way.

02:20:13.140 But you said if she didn't wake up, you would stop.

02:20:15.320 I know, she does sometimes.

02:20:16.540 She's like, ah.

02:20:18.140 I don't.

02:20:18.680 She's like, ah.

02:20:20.200 And I'm like, yeah, that's right.

02:20:21.740 And she's like, okay.

02:20:24.140 I know.

02:20:24.540 Yeah.

02:20:25.160 She's like, ah.

02:20:26.260 Like, she can't believe this is happening.

02:20:28.100 I've really shocked her.

02:20:29.300 And then she just kind of, she's okay with it.

02:20:33.220 Is that wild?

02:20:35.740 Um.

02:20:36.420 Am I graping her?

02:20:37.680 I, I, I think without having some form of, like, express consent, then yeah.

02:20:43.200 Yeah.

02:20:44.300 Damn, I do this all the time.

02:20:46.600 Like, constantly.

02:20:49.540 Constantly?

02:20:50.180 Yeah, it happens all the time.

02:20:51.040 Constantly is crazy.

02:20:52.200 Yeah.

02:20:52.520 Like, anytime I wake up with a boner, if she's not awake, she's definitely getting woke up

02:20:58.400 that way.

02:20:59.140 Well, why, I, I'm curious.

02:21:00.780 Why don't you just wake her up?

02:21:02.560 I am waking her up with my penis.

02:21:04.460 I'm asking before.

02:21:05.380 I'm asking what, what is the purpose of waking her up with your penis rather than just like

02:21:09.380 jolting her?

02:21:09.980 Because I think it's hilarious and it feels great.

02:21:13.040 You get the same outcome whether you wake her up, if you wake her up.

02:21:17.120 It's like a big surprise for her, you know?

02:21:19.000 Surprise!

02:21:19.280 Surprise!

02:21:21.600 A surprise if it's wanted.

02:21:24.500 I just assume it's wanted.

02:21:27.260 So you just assume consent?

02:21:29.220 From my wife?

02:21:30.020 Yes.

02:21:30.900 Absolutely.

02:21:31.740 And by the way, I'm just going to tell you, right?

02:21:34.440 I completely stand behind this.

02:21:36.640 This is not trolling.

02:21:37.720 I don't think you are trolling.

02:21:39.100 I, I'm never, I would never suggest that you are trolling.

02:21:41.020 I 100% stand behind this and I think it's not a big deal at all.

02:21:45.520 Okay.

02:21:46.000 Like not even a little bit.

02:21:47.600 And I actually haven't heard you demonstrate because you said it's not harmful to her and

02:21:52.340 it's not harmful to you.

02:21:53.840 I actually haven't heard you demonstrate why this is even bad.

02:21:57.540 They just kind of just think so.

02:21:59.540 I mean, sure.

02:22:00.920 I, I definitely think it's really icky that someone wants to have sex with someone who's

02:22:04.460 unconscious.

02:22:04.880 Is it a moral?

02:22:05.620 Like, um, I think having, like, would you have sex with her?

02:22:08.980 If she were in a coma?

02:22:10.240 No.

02:22:11.480 So, so what, what is the delineation here?

02:22:15.520 Well, I just would get the ick.

02:22:17.300 I'm just, no.

02:22:18.100 I'd be like, eh.

02:22:18.780 No, really.

02:22:19.360 Like from your.

02:22:20.080 What if she has asthma?

02:22:21.700 She does have asthma.

02:22:22.640 Oh, okay.

02:22:23.140 Yeah.

02:22:23.400 Yeah.

02:22:23.540 Just checking.

02:22:24.400 What does that have to do with it?

02:22:25.920 That could like stun her into like a, you know, like she can't breathe.

02:22:30.700 Yeah.

02:22:30.840 I don't know.

02:22:31.180 Rachel has, uh, asthma right now.

02:22:33.760 Yeah.

02:22:34.540 Yeah.

02:22:36.180 Nevermind.

02:22:37.000 I'm sorry.

02:22:37.520 What is, am I missing something?

02:22:38.660 Everyone's asthma have to do with it.

02:22:39.440 But here's the thing.

02:22:40.260 I will say this.

02:22:41.240 Okay.

02:22:43.880 I'm actually okay with my wife, like having sex with me if I was in a coma.

02:22:47.860 I'd be fine with that.

02:22:49.460 That's crazy.

02:22:51.340 I don't, why, what's crazy about it?

02:22:54.000 Why should she deprive herself because I'm in a coma?

02:22:56.160 Um, I think when we're talking about like sexual experience, um, consent is definitely the foundation

02:23:04.320 in terms of you're not only considering your experience, but you're also considering your

02:23:08.940 partners.

02:23:09.440 No, I'm just considering mine.

02:23:13.000 Like, I just want to have a good time.

02:23:15.980 So I wake her up with my penis.

02:23:17.800 Yeah.

02:23:18.160 I think it's, um, very harmful to not consider your partner's experience when engaging, uh,

02:23:26.900 in, in intercourse.

02:23:27.920 Cause it is, it is a mutual experience.

02:23:30.300 Why does she, you think she does that to me then?

02:23:32.160 Does what?

02:23:32.580 Do you think she just doesn't respect me very much that she would wake me up like that?

02:23:36.460 Like I just wake up and she's literally writing me.

02:23:39.560 Don't you think that's horrible?

02:23:40.340 What, what if she like, you woke up with her, like using your, her teeth?

02:23:46.040 What do you mean?

02:23:46.880 Huh?

02:23:48.480 Oh, that's what do you mean?

02:23:50.600 Um, I, I really don't want to talk about the sex life you have with your wife.

02:23:54.720 Can we, can we make it maybe less about you?

02:23:57.540 No, this is super easy for us to get down to this crazy ass idea you have.

02:24:03.400 What, that you should want consent from your partner?

02:24:05.800 Yeah, so like, here, I'll give you an example.

02:24:07.620 Um, I'm drunk and a woman's drunk.

02:24:10.340 Are we graping each other?

02:24:11.900 Yes.

02:24:13.300 I mean, I think, I think it would be, no, I, I mean, do you think, uh, like children engaging

02:24:20.920 would be graping each other?

02:24:22.820 No.

02:24:23.360 Oh, yeah.

02:24:24.000 See, I, I think I just have a higher standard for consent when it comes to.

02:24:27.020 No, no, wait, you said children?

02:24:28.680 Yeah.

02:24:29.060 Yeah, yeah.

02:24:29.440 That would be, well, that wouldn't be grape.

02:24:31.700 That would be something different because it is true that they can't consent, right?

02:24:36.720 But they both kind of can't consent together.

02:24:40.340 So they don't, I don't think they understand the ramifications of what they're doing.

02:24:43.580 I think if you're drunk, you do.

02:24:45.880 I don't think that drunk, being drunk is your pass.

02:24:47.700 Wait, but I just, I just put your logic into a different scenario.

02:24:50.000 So we can.

02:24:50.620 It's not the same logic.

02:24:51.800 How is it not?

02:24:52.500 Because in one, you don't understand the other one you do.

02:24:54.480 Like one, you don't have the capacity for it.

02:24:55.820 I mean, again, it depends how drunk you are.

02:24:57.540 You might not have the capacity.

02:24:58.420 Okay, then if I get drunk and murder somebody, not my fault.

02:25:05.180 I mean, people have gotten off for murdering people in their sleep.

02:25:11.120 Yeah, so I didn't consent to murder, right?

02:25:13.500 So therefore, I, like, no big deal.

02:25:16.620 I mean, you didn't consent.

02:25:17.960 I don't know what that has to do with anything in terms of the rights violation.

02:25:22.000 If you grape when you're drunk, are you responsible for that?

02:25:26.640 Yes.

02:25:27.180 So I don't understand then.

02:25:28.680 I'm very, now I'm actually really confused.

02:25:30.840 So you can be held responsible for the actions that you take when you're drunk.

02:25:35.480 Of course.

02:25:37.120 Okay.

02:25:37.660 Yeah, like even if you're blacked out and you get in your car and you drive and you kill someone.

02:25:41.020 Yeah.

02:25:41.420 Okay.

02:25:41.840 So then why can't two people consent when they're drunk?

02:25:46.900 Consent meaning to agree?

02:25:48.100 Because obviously it doesn't meet the criteria of being informed.

02:25:51.040 Okay.

02:25:51.400 So I don't understand.

02:25:53.000 Then why wouldn't it be attempted murder instead of murder if you killed someone when you're drunk?

02:25:57.140 Well, because you did kill them, right?

02:25:57.660 I mean, I guess if you tried and you failed, it would be attempted murder.

02:26:00.660 Okay.

02:26:00.960 So let me ask you this.

02:26:01.900 Okay.

02:26:02.680 Even though that makes no sense.

02:26:03.940 I'll just let it go.

02:26:05.120 How does that make no sense?

02:26:06.340 I'll explain.

02:26:06.900 Okay.

02:26:07.620 So let's say two people grape each other.

02:26:12.060 Why aren't both of them brought up on charges for grape?

02:26:14.860 Well, most people who grape aren't brought up on charges.

02:26:16.820 Yeah, I know.

02:26:17.440 But that's not my question.

02:26:18.240 My question is, if two people get drunk and have sex, they're raping each other, shouldn't both of them be charged with a crime?

02:26:26.980 I mean, in theory, yes.

02:26:29.820 So do you think that we should mobilize law enforcement to enforce that?

02:26:32.720 I mean, I think, again, it's, what do you mean immobilize law enforcement?

02:26:38.220 Well, it's not okay for me to grape somebody or them to grape me, right?

02:26:42.140 Right.

02:26:42.560 Why would it make it okay for us to grape each other at the same time?

02:26:45.700 I'm not saying it's okay.

02:26:46.700 Okay, great.

02:26:47.280 Then it should fall under the crime of grape.

02:26:49.460 Do you think if, like, I go out with my best friend and then I wake up in bed with them naked and, you know, we assume that we had sex, that that isn't harmful to...

02:26:59.460 Sure.

02:26:59.740 If it's something that you didn't want to do?

02:27:02.340 Sure.

02:27:02.740 I think it's harmful to you.

02:27:03.620 Okay.

02:27:04.020 Yeah.

02:27:05.020 So then people who get drunk and have sex should go to jail.

02:27:10.700 I mean, I think if, yeah.

02:27:14.860 Yeah.

02:27:15.020 You, in terms of going to jail, I think it's going to be really hard to establish.

02:27:21.080 Establish what?

02:27:21.860 You want grape is to go to jail, right?

02:27:24.120 Yes or no?

02:27:24.600 Um, well, I, I don't think that, like, prison is necessarily an effective way to, to solve rights violations.

02:27:33.040 Where do you want grape is to go?

02:27:36.460 Uh, well, I, I, I'm for a reformative justice, so I'm against police in prisons.

02:27:42.300 Are we talking about, like, what my ideal would be or within this current society?

02:27:46.200 Within this current society, where should they go?

02:27:48.220 Um, within that aspect of two people got drunk and had sex with each other?

02:27:55.100 So, are, is there...

02:27:58.120 No, that's not what I asked.

02:27:59.180 I asked, where should, where should, where should grapists go when they grape?

02:28:04.760 Should they go to prison or not?

02:28:06.460 Um, I think they should go to some kind of, uh, mental health facility or, um, should have some kind of duty to, uh, essentially address the harm that they've committed within society.

02:28:26.600 I'm more on focusing...

02:28:27.880 Well, are you going to isolate them in this mental health facility behind bars?

02:28:31.440 I think it depends.

02:28:31.980 It depends.

02:28:33.020 Sure.

02:28:33.300 If they're graped, are you going to put them behind bars while they're getting help so that they're not part of society?

02:28:40.020 It depends, yeah.

02:28:40.360 It depends.

02:28:41.440 On what?

02:28:42.500 On, obviously, the context of the crime.

02:28:45.240 It's grape.

02:28:46.140 That's the context.

02:28:47.480 You have grape somebody.

02:28:50.360 Sure, but...

02:28:51.140 Are you saying that some, some grapes are more morally bad than other grapes?

02:28:54.500 I'm saying that they have different, uh, treatments.

02:28:56.960 Okay, so, if a man grapes a girl, right?

02:29:03.560 Mm-hmm.

02:29:03.900 She can't consent.

02:29:04.820 She doesn't consent.

02:29:05.680 I mean, you say girl, you're talking child?

02:29:07.860 No, a woman.

02:29:09.620 Sorry.

02:29:10.180 Okay.

02:29:10.600 Yeah, so he grapes a woman.

02:29:13.160 He should go to jail, right?

02:29:16.180 Um, well, I, no, I, I believe in restorative justice.

02:29:20.620 Yeah, okay, wherever this guy goes, you want to keep him there while he gets this done, because he's not going to consent to go to it, right?

02:29:29.200 Again, it would depend on, on context.

02:29:33.120 Okay, um, so he's at a party with a girl, she's drunk, and he's not, he has sex with her.

02:29:40.680 Did he grape her?

02:29:43.520 Uh, yes.

02:29:44.040 She's drunk, he's not.

02:29:44.960 Okay, yes, he graped her.

02:29:46.860 What should happen to that guy?

02:29:50.620 Um, like, what, what would my sentence be?

02:29:53.200 Yeah.

02:29:54.660 Um, that, uh, essentially, if we're talking about restorative justice, that he is educated on the harm that he, um, committed, um, and that he receives mental professional help in terms of understanding his actions.

02:30:11.060 So, does he go someplace for this to happen that he's not allowed to leave until it's all done?

02:30:17.800 I mean, in that context, um, yeah, it could be for a short duration of time, sure.

02:30:23.880 And is that place going to have, like, bars and guards and things like that, in order to keep him there?

02:30:28.800 Um, maybe not bars, but maybe, um, you know, like, doors that lock, sure.

02:30:33.640 Okay, and then he gets out, and he goes, and he does it again.

02:30:37.320 What happens then?

02:30:38.520 Where should he go then?

02:30:40.300 Um, he would go back to the facility.

02:30:42.120 And then he does it again?

02:30:43.180 A long-term care facility, yeah.

02:30:44.420 Oh, long-term now.

02:30:45.460 Yeah.

02:30:45.620 Okay, and would that place have bars and guards so he couldn't leave?

02:30:50.280 Um, and again, not, not bars and guards, but, yeah, doors that lock, attendants.

02:30:55.420 So, what happens if he escapes?

02:30:58.520 Like, he doesn't want to do it, and he leaves.

02:31:00.760 And he leaves.

02:31:01.460 Mm-hmm.

02:31:01.880 Then he would be brought back.

02:31:04.820 And so, it's likely that most people would want to leave.

02:31:09.720 They don't want to be there, right?

02:31:11.660 Sure.

02:31:12.060 Yeah, so then, wouldn't you do something to keep them in, like, bars and guards?

02:31:19.240 I mean, I'm answering the same, you're asking the same question, and I'm answering it.

02:31:22.740 Well, because I, okay, so it's like this.

02:31:25.080 They go to a mental health facility.

02:31:26.880 Mm-hmm.

02:31:27.020 The reason I'm asking, but now it feels like I have to pry it out, so I'll just spell it out, right?

02:31:30.840 They escape, they go, they do the same crime, you're going to take them back to the same facility, they escape, they do the same crime, you're going to take them back to the same facility.

02:31:37.720 The difficulty with your example is that you're making a lot of presuppositions.

02:31:44.000 Yeah.

02:31:44.200 Is that if, you know, someone commits this act, that they have a high likelihood of recidivism.

02:31:56.080 They do have a high rate of recidivism.

02:31:58.140 I don't think so.

02:31:59.680 Yeah, because they don't even think that they see it as a problem.

02:32:02.620 Like, I don't think that two people who get drunk and have sex even see it as an issue.

02:32:06.180 Well, then why are they filing a police report?

02:32:09.160 They're not.

02:32:10.080 But here's the thing.

02:32:11.440 Do they need to file a police report for me to file a police report somebody who's been graved?

02:32:14.800 No.

02:32:16.200 I can file that report, right?

02:32:17.580 How would you file that report?

02:32:19.000 Like, if some chick got graped behind a dumpster and didn't want to come forward, I can still call the police and file a report saying I witnessed a grave.

02:32:26.500 Sure.

02:32:27.080 Yeah.

02:32:27.600 So, I mean, you can do the same thing with two drunk people.

02:32:30.920 Right.

02:32:31.400 Hey, officer.

02:32:32.540 But, again, you're.

02:32:32.960 She was drunk and he was drunk and they fucked.

02:32:34.760 See, and this is kind of the issue that I have when we talk about rape and, like, sexual violence is that there seems to be, like, this notion that the judicial system or legislation can solve for these things and solve for these outcomes.

02:32:50.520 And I just don't think that they can.

02:32:53.500 Well, yeah.

02:32:54.100 So, I think it has to be more of a proactive measure.

02:32:57.420 I don't even think people agree with you, though.

02:32:58.240 Rather than a reactive measure.

02:32:59.760 I don't even think they agree with you on this, that this is grape.

02:33:02.800 I don't think that.

02:33:03.640 So, for instance, I don't think that two people who get drunk and have sex are graping each other.

02:33:08.240 I think that that defies what we mean by grape.

02:33:11.920 I mean, I think there's a level of degree.

02:33:13.800 Like, you would say if someone is blacked out drunk and someone else is sober.

02:33:18.820 Yeah.

02:33:18.940 I think that when we're talking about grape, we're talking about forcing yourself on somebody who doesn't want it.

02:33:24.460 It's a violation.

02:33:26.060 They're taunting.

02:33:26.580 Like, I could even give you examples.

02:33:28.340 Bill Burr famously had the bit where he was like, no, it doesn't always mean no.

02:33:32.260 And the feminist says, yes, it does.

02:33:33.860 And he's like, no, it doesn't.

02:33:35.500 Because you can have things like, no, no, stop.

02:33:38.300 No.

02:33:39.380 No.

02:33:40.000 And they're completely teasing.

02:33:42.100 And you laugh because it's true.

02:33:44.060 Right?

02:33:44.340 It doesn't actually always mean no.

02:33:46.200 I mean, I'm not laughing because I think it's funny.

02:33:47.220 Yeah, but it doesn't always mean no.

02:33:49.100 No doesn't actually always mean no.

02:33:51.640 Do you think that that gives, like, young men the impression that when they hear no, that it's like a negotiation opportunity?

02:33:58.920 I think sometimes it is.

02:34:00.400 It's pretty obvious.

02:34:01.480 Why?

02:34:03.180 Like, it's super obvious to me that, like.

02:34:05.180 You want to talk someone into having sex with you?

02:34:07.520 Yeah.

02:34:07.860 No, no, no.

02:34:08.540 And I'm sorry.

02:34:09.420 I just want to let you know, like, I need a bathroom break soon.

02:34:12.100 Yeah, yeah.

02:34:12.360 I'll have a smoke, too.

02:34:13.500 We'll do that.

02:34:13.860 We'll do that.

02:34:14.580 Sure.

02:34:15.180 But just to finish this point.

02:34:16.520 No, I just wanted to.

02:34:17.800 So very, very simple.

02:34:19.780 I think that when, like, I might be playing with my wife or messing around with my wife, for instance, and say something like this.

02:34:29.580 Like, maybe she goes, stop, don't, stop, stop, and then go, and then she doesn't really want me to stop, though, right?

02:34:39.120 It's a big, like, there's body language and chemistry that comes with the human experience.

02:34:44.940 Sure.

02:34:45.420 Sure.

02:34:45.640 Obviously, you're in, like, a committed and established relationship.

02:34:49.800 Sure.

02:34:50.940 So no doesn't always mean no.

02:34:52.300 I think that, like, if we're, like, obviously consent CNC.

02:35:03.560 Yeah, I think that's different.

02:35:07.820 Well, that's another context, though, right?

02:35:10.380 Yeah, it is.

02:35:11.200 But I think that no doesn't always mean no, and that it is context dependent.

02:35:15.980 And I think that the idea that two drunk people having sex are graping each other, and it's just okay because one grape cancels out the grape.

02:35:25.240 It seems like if both of them are graping each other, it's a contradiction in terms of like a paradox.

02:35:29.420 The paradox is grape is, from your view, can't consent.

02:35:36.920 And yet, if they're both enthusiastically graping each other, they seem to be enthusiastically consenting.

02:35:45.480 So, like, how do two people mutually grape, but they're not consenting?

02:35:48.980 Obviously, you're under the influence.

02:35:50.560 So?

02:35:51.160 So what?

02:35:51.800 That obviously affects aspects of judgment, you know, just like your capacity for brain development.

02:36:00.480 Yeah, but you're both under the same effect.

02:36:04.160 Right.

02:36:04.700 I never said you weren't.

02:36:06.060 Like, willingly.

02:36:08.060 Like, I don't know about you, but you do agree that it's very common for people married, unmarried, everywhere in between to have sex.

02:36:14.400 Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think people are drunk all the time.

02:36:15.580 Yeah, and they have sex when they're drunk.

02:36:17.400 But, I mean, I'm sure you yourself would have a line, right?

02:36:21.060 Yeah, there would be a line, sure.

02:36:23.420 And where is that line?

02:36:26.620 You mean of when I wouldn't?

02:36:28.420 Like, if a chick was passed out or something crazy?

02:36:31.160 So, if she were, like, falling down, slurring her words, couldn't hold, like, her phone, still fair game.

02:36:38.640 No, I think that's a little much for me.

02:36:40.860 But, that might be a little much for me, right?

02:36:46.460 I don't think that I could say that some guy graved her because she was really drunk.

02:36:51.380 And she said yes.

02:36:52.980 Like, I don't know how I could say that.

02:36:54.480 She doesn't even have the motor skills to hold a phone, but.

02:36:56.940 Well, now you're changing it to, like, semi.

02:36:59.440 I didn't.

02:36:59.780 That's exactly what I described.

02:37:01.140 Well, that's semi-conscious at that point.

02:37:03.300 Right.

02:37:03.620 That's exactly what I described.

02:37:05.000 Yeah.

02:37:05.140 You know, she's dropping her phone.

02:37:06.260 She's slurring.

02:37:06.960 So, that's semi-conscious at that point.

02:37:08.600 So, semi-conscious is not okay.

02:37:11.260 Yeah.

02:37:11.500 She's basically half out of the bag.

02:37:13.640 Yeah.

02:37:13.980 Like, she's gone.

02:37:14.940 And, obviously, this is going to be arbitrary.

02:37:17.120 If you're that faded, sure.

02:37:18.800 Right?

02:37:19.260 Yeah.

02:37:20.100 If the guy is that drunk and she's that drunk.

02:37:22.440 I mean, again, like, what are we classifying as, like, drunk, I guess?

02:37:26.760 Whatever you just said.

02:37:27.840 Motor skills, gone, whatever.

02:37:29.700 You're both that smashed.

02:37:31.100 And then you go home and you bang each other from your view.

02:37:32.940 You're graping each other.

02:37:34.020 Yeah.

02:37:34.440 That seems way more absurd to me.

02:37:36.300 I don't know why.

02:37:37.320 I don't know why you, like, can't think that you can engage in and sort of.

02:37:44.600 Because it infers that there's grape that's morally neutral.

02:37:47.640 And I think that grape would always necessarily have to be bad for me to classify it as grape.

02:37:53.980 I don't think that just because two people, like, are not of the capacity to give informed and enthusiastic consent, that makes it morally neutral.

02:38:05.500 Well, you have to tell me what makes it morally bad then.

02:38:09.580 Because you still have not done that.

02:38:11.320 You just kind of keep on reverting to descriptors without giving me the actual, this is actually bad, this kind of grape, because of, because of.

02:38:22.760 Because of.

02:38:23.800 What?

02:38:25.160 Because of what?

02:38:26.520 What actually makes it, like, if both parties wake up in the morning and they look over and go, who are you?

02:38:32.660 And I don't know.

02:38:33.500 The other one's like, I don't know either.

02:38:34.900 But we definitely had sex last night.

02:38:37.260 And neither of them care.

02:38:39.120 Right?

02:38:40.200 Like, what's the problem here?

02:38:41.880 Who's been, who's actually been violent?

02:38:43.820 Like, how could that be a morally bad thing?

02:38:46.480 That you wake up next to a stranger and you can't remember you had sex, but yet you don't care?

02:38:51.980 No, no, no.

02:38:52.640 That definitely had to be grape on both parties.

02:38:56.360 Right?

02:38:56.800 Had to be.

02:38:57.500 I, I think the harm is, again, the fact that you would engage in intercourse with someone of, of that capacity.

02:39:06.420 Both of you are in that capacity.

02:39:08.120 I know.

02:39:08.640 But again, that, that this is like an experience that is desired.

02:39:13.520 Is, is the male more culpable in this situation?

02:39:17.960 No.

02:39:18.520 If they're both equally drunk, is the male more culpable?

02:39:22.980 Um, I don't know why he would be.

02:39:24.980 Yeah, I don't either.

02:39:25.880 Sure.

02:39:26.060 That wouldn't even logically follow.

02:39:27.140 But this, but this doesn't still, you just gave me a descriptor.

02:39:30.340 You still didn't tell me actually why it's bad.

02:39:33.260 Like, why is it actually bad?

02:39:35.100 I, I did.

02:39:35.820 I think, um, essentially like your, your psychological understanding of how you engage in sex, um, can be bad and harmful.

02:39:44.300 Like, sure, maybe in this one instance, you didn't hurt someone, but in another instance, that could very well be the case.

02:39:51.180 That could be for anything, literally anything.

02:39:54.420 Like what?

02:39:54.960 Like just, you pick up a chick and you have sex and your dick is too big.

02:39:58.960 This case didn't hurt anybody.

02:40:00.900 The next case it could hurt anybody.

02:40:03.020 That doesn't have to do with consent though.

02:40:04.800 Yeah.

02:40:04.960 But the point is, is like, you can put that standard to almost anything.

02:40:08.620 You can put the standard of like, uh, well, in this case it didn't do anything, but next time it could possibly do something.

02:40:15.180 It also could possibly not ever do anything.

02:40:18.380 Um, so like that just seems so silly to me.

02:40:21.500 And not only that, that really still doesn't answer to my question.

02:40:25.020 So let me, let's try it in an easier way.

02:40:26.860 Okay.

02:40:27.260 And then can we take, yeah, yeah.

02:40:28.460 Drunk.

02:40:28.840 So drunk guy, right?

02:40:30.240 He's drunk, but he's not like lost all fine motor skills, but he's drunk.

02:40:34.060 Okay.

02:40:34.500 She's drunk.

02:40:35.320 Same thing.

02:40:35.980 Hasn't lost all fine motor skills, but she's definitely drunk.

02:40:38.740 Okay.

02:40:39.140 They go home and they have sex.

02:40:41.580 Now they both graped each other still by your standard.

02:40:44.640 Okay.

02:40:45.000 Both of them did.

02:40:45.780 We agree on that.

02:40:46.740 Okay.

02:40:47.160 Okay.

02:40:47.680 Do we agree on that?

02:40:48.720 They did grape each other.

02:40:50.080 Okay.

02:40:51.140 I mean, I guess it, yeah, sure.

02:40:53.020 So they wake up in the morning.

02:40:54.380 They remember all of it.

02:40:55.800 Okay.

02:40:56.440 Which drunk people often remember what they did the night before.

02:40:59.140 That's not uncommon at all.

02:41:00.360 They remember all of it.

02:41:01.660 And the guy leans over and says, see you later, honey.

02:41:04.340 I'm heading off to work and gives her a kiss.

02:41:05.960 She goes, okay, baby, that was a lot of fun last night.

02:41:07.980 And he, away you go.

02:41:08.740 Now, what is actually the harm that happened there?

02:41:13.020 What is actually immoral about that?

02:41:17.560 I'm sorry.

02:41:18.300 Is this a couple?

02:41:19.240 Yeah.

02:41:23.000 I think the harm is that, again, it's kind of like about the experience that you had with

02:41:31.760 your partner when it comes to engaging in sex.

02:41:34.140 They loved it.

02:41:34.720 You don't really know in terms of your partner's capacity to consent.

02:41:41.440 Yeah, but they both loved it.

02:41:42.940 They both claimed to you, this was great.

02:41:45.380 We had a great time.

02:41:46.420 It was fantastic.

02:41:47.040 And then I would say they weren't drunk.

02:41:48.660 They were drunk, for sure.

02:41:50.340 Like, are we just going beyond the legal limit?

02:41:52.780 Way beyond the legal limit.

02:41:53.780 Yeah, and they just remembered what happened the night before, as drunk people most often do.

02:42:00.860 What would be the harm?

02:42:02.300 I mean, again, I think the specific instance of the experience is the harm.

02:42:10.300 Like, so let me, maybe I can give you another analogy, because maybe I'm not understanding

02:42:14.620 what you want.

02:42:15.600 In terms of, like, things that are, like, kinks, like BDSM, I think there are people who

02:42:21.060 really do like engaging in that kind of act when the act in itself is, like, harming or

02:42:29.540 hurting your partner.

02:42:31.020 And maybe your partner can like that, and you can like that.

02:42:33.480 But I think there's an issue when hurting someone makes you feel good.

02:42:38.700 Who got hurt?

02:42:42.260 Well, again, in terms of, like, even if your partner likes it, you are physically hurting

02:42:48.460 them in that capacity, correct?

02:42:49.840 How?

02:42:49.860 You haven't demonstrated that they're being hurt by it in any capacity.

02:42:53.140 I'm saying with the example of BDSM.

02:42:54.980 Well, I'm saying in this example.

02:42:56.880 You're inflicting physical pain, even though they like it.

02:42:58.840 Yeah, in the example of BDSM, sure.

02:43:00.040 Even though they like it.

02:43:00.780 I'll concede to any of the examples in BDSM that you're harming them, hurting them, whatever,

02:43:05.860 even if they say they like it, sure.

02:43:07.720 Tie that into this, though.

02:43:09.400 How is it that this would actually be demonstrably harmful or in some way not okay?

02:43:16.060 Because the experience that you're having with your partner is incapacitated.

02:43:22.820 But you both wanted to be incapacitated.

02:43:25.780 That's irrelevant.

02:43:26.760 And you're not, by the way, you're not incapacitated.

02:43:30.460 You are.

02:43:31.300 Like, can you sign contracts drunk?

02:43:34.280 Well, legally, no.

02:43:35.960 Why?

02:43:37.120 Well, because there could be a threshold there where you're so far beyond it that you're

02:43:40.920 incapable of signing something.

02:43:42.700 Why?

02:43:44.160 Well, yeah.

02:43:44.640 Why are you incapable?

02:43:45.700 I agree with you on that.

02:43:46.820 But why are you incapable?

02:43:47.700 Because your mental cognitive ability is completely impaired.

02:43:52.200 Right.

02:43:52.440 So you're having sex with someone who has, to where not only you have a mental cognitive

02:43:59.020 impairment, and they have a mental cognitive impairment.

02:44:01.940 Sure.

02:44:02.180 And the psychology of enjoying that.

02:44:06.320 So retards shouldn't be able to have sex?

02:44:07.800 Oh, my God.

02:44:08.740 No, I mean, honestly, retards shouldn't be allowed to have sex?

02:44:11.580 Of course.

02:44:12.780 But again-

02:44:13.440 Of course what?

02:44:13.960 I don't think comparing people who have-

02:44:17.340 But they have a limited cognitive ability.

02:44:19.860 Not to the same-

02:44:21.120 To compare people with, like, limited mental ability to drunk people is ridiculous.

02:44:27.720 That's what your argument is.

02:44:29.240 Limited cognitive ability.

02:44:30.580 No.

02:44:30.600 Oh, yes.

02:44:32.840 Yes.

02:44:34.200 Limited cognitive ability.

02:44:36.200 Limited cognitive ability.

02:44:37.700 It-

02:44:38.280 Those are differentiated.

02:44:39.720 Like-

02:44:40.120 How?

02:44:41.000 Someone who has disabilities is not equal to someone who is drunk.

02:44:44.980 I didn't say disability.

02:44:46.020 I said they're retarded.

02:44:47.820 That would be a disability.

02:44:48.920 Yeah, yeah.

02:44:49.240 I'm not talking about, like, in a wheelchair.

02:44:51.820 I'm saying they have a mental cognitive disability.

02:44:54.560 Right.

02:44:54.700 Kind of like they're drunk.

02:44:55.840 But they're not drunk.

02:44:57.280 But they still don't have great motor skills, things like that.

02:45:00.180 Yeah, again, I'm saying that if we're talking about a spectrum, then, like, drunk is on this side.

02:45:05.500 And, like, limited mental cognition, again, would be a spectrum in terms of someone, do they have the capacity to consent?

02:45:15.640 Someone who has a mental disability to where, like, they have the age of someone who's, like, 9 or 10, then yes, that would absolutely be an issue.

02:45:27.220 They're not allowed to have sex with other people who have the same mental capacity?

02:45:30.180 No, I would say that would be an issue.

02:45:33.220 As adults?

02:45:34.120 Yeah.

02:45:34.640 Even if they want to?

02:45:37.560 Yeah, I mean, if they have the mental cognition of a 9-year-old, would you want 9-year-olds to have sex?

02:45:41.420 Okay, so how about they just have a mental capacity?

02:45:43.740 I'm so sorry.

02:45:44.040 Can we?

02:45:44.300 Yeah, yeah.

02:45:44.780 Yeah, we'll take a brief.

02:45:47.800 We'll do an intermission.

02:45:49.340 If you guys want to, you want to take smoke, you want to use the bathroom.

02:45:52.360 Yes, I'm sorry.

02:45:53.340 I will.

02:45:53.740 No problem.

02:45:54.480 No problem at all.

02:45:55.320 Yes.

02:45:55.940 Go for it.

02:45:56.720 We've still got plenty of debate left.

02:45:57.540 I'm sorry?

02:45:58.200 We've still got plenty of debate left.

02:45:59.880 Yeah, go for it.

02:46:00.460 Well, we've got more to do.

02:46:02.700 Okay.

02:46:03.320 Take a little bathroom break.

02:46:04.480 I'll talk to the –

02:46:05.700 All right.

02:46:05.940 I'll talk.

02:46:06.840 You guys have a smoke.

02:46:09.740 All right, guys, really quick, if you guys are enjoying the stream, if you can, kindly like the video, guys.

02:46:17.040 We'd very much – oh, damn.

02:46:18.860 Look, guys, I got sunburned instantly.

02:46:20.540 That's crazy.

02:46:21.580 Guys, like the video.

02:46:22.680 Also, we're going to – once they're back – you don't have to pull this up.

02:46:27.120 Once they're back, we are going to do – I was sunburned.

02:46:33.480 No, I'm not.

02:46:34.020 Well, we have a couple of reads that we need to get through.

02:46:36.940 Let me do a couple of shout-outs really quick.

02:46:38.840 One sec while I get that pulled up.

02:46:40.700 Also, if you want your contribution to go 100% to the Whatever Podcast and not have YouTube, and YouTube takes 30%, Streamlabs takes typically 3% to 4%, you can do it through WhateverPod on Venmo and Cash App.

02:46:53.900 Now, let me get this pulled up here real quick.

02:46:56.120 I want to thank CycleRider for the 10 gifted subs over there on Twitch.

02:47:01.240 And then we have Josh Brooks who gifted us 20 memberships.

02:47:05.580 Thank you so much, man.

02:47:07.740 If you guys are just tuning in, Andrew went for a quick smoke break.

02:47:11.900 We're doing the bathroom break, but we're going to get into some other topics.

02:47:14.940 We're going to hit – we're going to finish up on feminism.

02:47:17.700 We might hit a bit of Trump stuff, maybe some other topics too.

02:47:21.300 Can you pull up Twitch for me?

02:47:22.900 Guys, go to twitch.tv slash whatever and drop us a follow and a Prime sub if you have one.

02:47:31.080 If you have Amazon Prime, it's a quick, free, easy way to support the show every single month.

02:47:34.920 And CycleRider, thank you again for the 10 gifted subs.

02:47:37.960 Also, guys, Andrew, you guys know Andrew's favorite flavor of pizza is pineapple.

02:47:43.760 If you go to YouTube, in the chats portion, we have a goal.

02:47:49.260 And we're 12 of 50, so we need, what, 38 more super chats that are 10 and up.

02:47:55.660 And we're going to do a pineapple pizza party, and then we're going to do a roast session if we hit the goal threshold.

02:48:01.540 38 more super chats at the $10 and up, or it's $9.99, $9.99 and up.

02:48:08.740 We'll do the pineapple pizza party and the roast session.

02:48:12.220 Also, while we do this, just pull up the, here, I'll do it really quick.

02:48:18.680 If you guys are enjoying the stream and you want to become a master debater like Andrew, you can go to debateuniversity.com.

02:48:26.900 That's debateuniversity.com.

02:48:29.340 It's a video course that Andrew offers, and it'll teach you how to think and speak and debate, master debate, just like Andrew Wilson.

02:48:40.280 That's debateuniversity.com.

02:48:42.440 I believe there's still, it's on discount right now.

02:48:44.980 There's a discount for the program, so you can check it out there.

02:48:47.960 Also, guys, check out our, we've got a Discord, discord.gg slash whatever.

02:48:54.600 So be sure to check that out.

02:48:56.440 We post a bunch of behind the scenes and whatnot.

02:49:00.000 Let me talk to you guys a bit about our schedule for the rest of the week.

02:49:03.960 So tomorrow we have our dating talk.

02:49:05.420 Andrew will be here for the dating talk.

02:49:07.220 And then we have a debate scheduled for Monday, a debate scheduled for Tuesday, and a debate scheduled for Wednesday.

02:49:13.580 All of those with Andrew Wilson.

02:49:15.780 One of those is going to be a 2v2.

02:49:17.480 So it's going to be me and Andrew, and then it's going to be, well, 2v2.

02:49:20.740 And then I'm trying to think what else we have on the schedule.

02:49:23.040 It should be around the same time between, typically our start time is anticipated to be probably around 4 p.m. Pacific time for those debates that are scheduled Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

02:49:34.840 So be sure to tune into those.

02:49:37.140 We have, I'm going to read a couple chats here.

02:49:40.300 Josh Brooks.

02:49:41.800 Okay, Josh, that's an interesting one.

02:49:44.120 Thank you for that.

02:49:45.900 Let's see.

02:49:46.680 We have Josh Brooks here for Andrew's Pineapples.

02:49:50.060 Thank you, Josh Brooks, for the super chat.

02:49:54.240 Appreciate it.

02:49:54.720 We have Fifi.

02:49:55.480 Thank you for the super chat.

02:49:57.340 I do appreciate it.

02:49:58.580 Thank you very much.

02:49:59.860 And then we have Spyro.

02:50:02.160 Thank you for that.

02:50:03.720 Appreciate the super chat there.

02:50:06.240 I'm going to leave this one up because I don't know if you guys know this.

02:50:10.260 It's over here.

02:50:11.480 I don't know if you guys know this.

02:50:12.940 The green screen is butchering.

02:50:16.560 Do you want a, what's it called?

02:50:20.060 Energy drink?

02:50:23.760 Yeah, do you want an energy drink?

02:50:25.180 No, no, me.

02:50:25.780 Okay.

02:50:26.940 Okay, sure.

02:50:28.720 John, we have like a green screen issue going on here.

02:50:31.540 So after the show, Blake, leave this one so I can try to fix it.

02:50:35.960 Not sure what's going on.

02:50:37.660 Bitrage, Andrew never falters.

02:50:39.460 On point, prepared AF.

02:50:40.840 Thank you, Bitpoint, for that.

02:50:42.660 Do appreciate your super chat.

02:50:44.560 Andrew is about to walk up here in just a moment.

02:50:48.400 He just had a Marlboro Red cigarette.

02:50:57.720 Welcome back, Kenzie.

02:50:59.760 So, Kenzie, you do, I'll just, you do like Twitch, or not Twitch, TikTok debates.

02:51:06.900 Yes.

02:51:07.160 Good times, good times.

02:51:10.280 You were going to do like, I think you stopped at two videos on this, a Whatever Podcast Companion.

02:51:19.220 Yeah.

02:51:19.740 Well, that microphone came out of nowhere.

02:51:22.540 Do you remember what it was?

02:51:23.860 What happened to the Whatever Podcast Companion?

02:51:27.200 You stopped at two episodes.

02:51:28.620 I know.

02:51:29.020 A little disappointed.

02:51:29.680 Well, sometimes, you want to pour it, and then we'll just put it off the table.

02:51:35.160 Sometimes my execution isn't great.

02:51:38.840 I did a, I used to do a reaction to, do you know what live action is?

02:51:48.060 Live action, the anti-

02:51:50.740 Yeah, the anti-abortion.

02:51:52.440 Yeah.

02:51:52.660 Yeah, I used to do a series on them, and it felt like I was just kind of reacting to the same things over and over.

02:51:58.120 You had to find something more novel, like a Whatever Podcast.

02:52:02.640 Okay.

02:52:03.020 I mean, the honest answer to your question is just consistency.

02:52:06.860 Okay.

02:52:07.740 Well, now that we have you both back here, we do have some chats coming through.

02:52:11.600 I just want to just very quickly point out, though, that you did contradict yourself when you said that disabled people should be allowed, and then went, they shouldn't be allowed.

02:52:18.560 I said it depends on, like, obviously the capacity.

02:52:22.660 Like, yeah, if you have the mental age of a nine-year-old, then no.

02:52:26.140 But if you have the mental age of an 18-year-old, right, but you just are impaired to the fact that you are always kind of just in the same capacity as a drunk person at 40, and both of you-

02:52:38.140 I don't think that those, I think that those are false equivalences.

02:52:40.480 What's the false equivalence?

02:52:41.680 It's the impairment, right?

02:52:42.940 The impairment's what matters.

02:52:43.940 Well, no, because I think that, like, being drunk is a different impairment than maybe having, like, mental limitations.

02:52:51.740 But it is the impairment itself that's the problem.

02:52:55.140 Again, it's, you know, when we're talking about people who have mental limitations, it can be in certain aspects of, like, understanding concepts and cognition, not necessarily, like, the same that you are when you're drunk.

02:53:09.080 Can you just do with me one solid?

02:53:12.240 And this is kind of a parody, right?

02:53:13.980 A little bit.

02:53:14.760 This is a little-

02:53:15.860 A parody? We're there?

02:53:16.520 I just had a-

02:53:17.300 I just had one-

02:53:17.880 This is like a tiny bit of trolling.

02:53:19.720 This is, right?

02:53:20.920 How exciting.

02:53:21.660 Can you just look at the camera and tell every woman out there who's ever been woken up by their husband with sex that their husband's a grapist?

02:53:28.540 If your husband is having sex with you while you're unconscious, your husband is a grapist.

02:53:35.120 Including if he just wakes you up with his penis, right?

02:53:36.920 He is having sex with you unconscious.

02:53:38.820 Yeah. So they're a grapist, right?

02:53:40.200 Mm-hmm.

02:53:40.580 Okay.

02:53:42.080 I also just-

02:53:42.900 Brian, have you ever-

02:53:43.580 Huh?

02:53:44.080 Have you-

02:53:44.640 Have you ever woke a woman up with sex?

02:53:46.620 I'm a virgin.

02:53:47.360 Brian?

02:53:47.840 Have you ever done this?

02:53:48.780 Brian?

02:53:49.100 I'm a virgin.

02:53:50.040 Hey, over there.

02:53:51.360 What is a virgin?

02:53:52.020 I'm a virgin.

02:53:52.420 What about you, bro?

02:53:53.100 Have you ever done it even once?

02:53:54.620 Have you ever woke a chick up with sex, bro?

02:53:56.920 He-

02:53:57.320 He-

02:53:57.760 You're a grapist there?

02:54:01.000 Grapist here?

02:54:01.580 Grape-

02:54:01.860 Just a grapist there?

02:54:02.860 Well, hold on.

02:54:03.480 I'm a virgin.

02:54:04.280 He just said he's a virgin.

02:54:05.080 Well, he's a virgin.

02:54:05.880 Yeah.

02:54:06.220 Yeah.

02:54:07.240 And wait, one-

02:54:08.420 Did this also apply to women, too, just as a point of clarification?

02:54:12.060 Like if his wife, Rachel, wakes him up with-

02:54:14.380 Yeah, she already said.

02:54:15.380 My wife's a grapist.

02:54:16.420 His wife is a grapist?

02:54:17.580 Yes.

02:54:18.180 If you are-

02:54:19.460 Rachel is a-

02:54:21.120 Okay.

02:54:22.120 If you are having sex with someone who is unconscious, then yes, you do not have expressed consent.

02:54:27.400 Wait, question, though.

02:54:28.280 If they give you permission beforehand?

02:54:33.720 They can't because they're impaired.

02:54:35.300 They can't retract it, right?

02:54:36.920 That's the world view.

02:54:37.620 Well, wait.

02:54:37.780 When you're sleeping, you're not impaired.

02:54:39.240 But I do think there is issues when it comes to, like, reversible.

02:54:42.580 Like, do you-

02:54:43.140 Let me ask you.

02:54:44.380 Do you think that it's immoral to have sex with someone in a coma?

02:54:49.300 Yes.

02:54:49.840 Why?

02:54:50.060 Because of violation of Christian ethics.

02:54:54.580 So that's just it, just because God says so.

02:54:57.400 Isn't that enough of a standard?

02:54:59.660 Well, no, because I want to know, like, what's the-

02:55:02.460 So if God said, don't wake your wife up with sex, then to you, it'd be like-

02:55:06.240 That would change the nature of God.

02:55:07.460 Done.

02:55:07.940 For God to change his mind.

02:55:09.920 Where does God say in the Bible, wake your wife up with sex?

02:55:13.480 Well, it's not implicit.

02:55:14.720 It doesn't need to be implicit.

02:55:17.000 So the thing is, though, is that you can find this in Paul, where he tells couples not to deprive each other.

02:55:23.740 And that couples should not deprive each other.

02:55:26.140 And so you would say-

02:55:27.160 So do you think your wife has an obligation to sleep with you?

02:55:29.260 I think we both have an obligation to sleep with each other.

02:55:31.560 And if she doesn't want to?

02:55:33.420 Including if I don't want to, yes.

02:55:36.180 So I'm asking, if she doesn't want to, then-

02:55:38.940 Yes, I think she has an obligation.

02:55:40.360 I have an obligation, same way.

02:55:41.420 Do you think you can rape your wife?

02:55:43.560 I'm sorry, grape your wife.

02:55:44.940 I think that there is instances where you can, yes.

02:55:47.840 And what would those instances be?

02:55:48.960 Generally speaking, violence, holding them down, doing things like this.

02:55:52.660 I think that things like that would be considered in the category of grape.

02:55:55.940 But isn't she not upholding her duty?

02:55:58.500 That's true.

02:55:59.080 She can violate her duty, but that doesn't give you a right to hold her down and grape her.

02:56:02.840 Okay.

02:56:03.300 So I'm glad we agree that marital grape is the thing.

02:56:05.680 That's a relief.

02:56:07.320 Nobody would ever dispute that who has reason.

02:56:09.820 I've talked to a lot of Christians who don't think marital grape is real.

02:56:14.700 Oh.

02:56:15.200 Okay.

02:56:15.800 All right.

02:56:16.600 So we have, thank you, Spira, for the soup chat.

02:56:19.140 Really quick, before we get into some of the reads.

02:56:21.920 Really?

02:56:22.820 Wait.

02:56:23.380 Yeah, I think I have one clip posted on my TikTok.

02:56:27.940 Like, what if they want to do, well, it doesn't matter.

02:56:33.060 All right.

02:56:33.500 Anyway.

02:56:33.920 No, please finish your thought.

02:56:36.120 Well, like, I mean, what if they want to, like, you know, like, I don't know, sodomize

02:56:42.980 or with, like, an object or something like that, they would have to concede then that

02:56:46.860 this would be against a violation of Christian ethics.

02:56:51.820 Well, I mean, they just think that if you're married, then you have signed a contract.

02:56:57.660 I think there is implied consent with marriage, yes.

02:56:59.720 I, uh, that you've signed a contract that, you know, your body is your partner's in all

02:57:06.560 instances under all circumstances.

02:57:07.940 I think there's implied consent there, but not in all circumstances.

02:57:10.740 I mean, I, I do agree that there in, um, can be implied consent, um, in terms of like

02:57:18.300 some acts, sure.

02:57:20.160 Yeah.

02:57:20.560 I agree.

02:57:22.140 Okay.

02:57:22.760 Uh, really quick.

02:57:23.680 So I just want to shout a couple people out here.

02:57:25.840 We can, uh, all right.

02:57:27.240 So Anna, thank you for the 10 on Venmo, MC Rocker, thank you for the 12 on Cash App.

02:57:32.080 AJ, thank you for the one on Cash App.

02:57:34.760 And George, thank you for the 10 on Cash App.

02:57:36.520 Guys, if you want 100% of your contribution to go towards us, you can do it through either

02:57:41.160 Venmo, Cash App, that's whatever pod.

02:57:42.680 Now we have a message coming through here.

02:57:45.380 We have about four of them.

02:57:47.440 We have Lucas.

02:57:49.260 Lucas, what's up, man?

02:57:51.240 Uh, did she just claim that, uh, homo sapiens realized having sex

02:57:57.160 results in having children only 10,000 years ago?

02:57:59.540 So how did homo sapiens have babies for the 290, 100,000 million preceding years?

02:58:06.940 290,000 preceding years.

02:58:08.440 No, it wasn't right.

02:58:08.900 Proceeding years.

02:58:09.520 Did the stories, uh, did the storks bring them?

02:58:13.420 Um, I'm just saying that men didn't understand their contribution within sex.

02:58:18.380 I think they did.

02:58:20.160 Okay.

02:58:20.540 I think that there's, uh, there's a lot.

02:58:22.380 They just thought that women just magically became pregnant, even in like Australian,

02:58:26.540 uh, uh, I always have a hard time pronouncing it.

02:58:28.940 I think some tribes did.

02:58:30.120 And I think that there's good evidence that, uh, that other people, uh, even up to, if you're,

02:58:35.140 if you have the evolutionary mindset, um, there's no reason for us to assume that human beings

02:58:41.100 didn't understand that, um, if I'm not having sex with woman, woman not getting pregnant,

02:58:48.620 I think that that's a very simple correlate to make.

02:58:52.520 So I do need to move it on to the next one, but we have Brooks here.

02:58:56.340 He says, uh, based squad, moist mafia, crucible crew, W Andrew and Rachel, W coom tunes, W host,

02:59:04.060 Brian and whatever, W Kiki, the show will live in notoriety forever.

02:59:08.180 The positive form of notoriety naturally.

02:59:11.480 Hey, uh, Brooks, Josh, I think that's from Josh Brooks.

02:59:14.420 Thank you so much for your message there via stream labs.

02:59:16.840 Uh, can you hide the super, the, this part?

02:59:21.300 So it's not blocking.

02:59:22.620 She definitely being a bedroom, Karen, a lot of people, myself included have experienced

02:59:27.380 both sides of these actions.

02:59:28.860 Just say you're boring and can't understand having fun in the bedroom and move on.

02:59:33.880 Do you want to respond to that?

02:59:36.760 Um, sure.

02:59:38.060 I, again, I, I don't know why wanting my partner to be a full cognition and be conscious

02:59:43.480 is me being a Karen.

02:59:44.900 No, I mean, you don't really care about that too much though, right?

02:59:47.480 Like if he has two beers, he's not fully cognitive at that point.

02:59:52.380 He's not drunk.

02:59:53.220 He's not fully cognitive though.

02:59:55.700 He's, he's not drunk.

02:59:57.080 But he's not fully cognitive.

02:59:58.840 And you just said, I want him to be fully cognitive.

03:00:01.480 If he, if he like has, um, like a buzz, not, not even a buzz, um, but that's not fully

03:00:12.640 cognitive or, or like a standard of cognition for sure.

03:00:17.740 I mean, I think you can be buzzed and fully cognitive.

03:00:23.740 I, yeah, I mean, I maybe, I don't know.

03:00:27.340 I don't think so.

03:00:28.000 I think that that's going to lower cognition by some degree, no matter what.

03:00:32.880 Prove it.

03:00:33.700 Is that what I said?

03:00:34.660 Yeah.

03:00:34.900 I think, I think we can demonstrate that if you have a buzz, it's going to, to some degree

03:00:39.840 lower cognition.

03:00:40.840 No, I think it can amplify cognition.

03:00:42.520 Like have, do you, do you bowl?

03:00:45.180 Yeah, I've bowl.

03:00:45.820 Yeah.

03:00:46.100 Uh, I bowl so good when, when I'm a little buzz.

03:00:49.300 Yeah.

03:00:49.400 But it could be because lowering your cognition is helpful for some external reasons.

03:00:54.660 Like, um, I think I have heightened cognition.

03:00:57.160 I can just see the pins better.

03:00:59.000 Maybe, or it's possible that you have just less inhibitions, right?

03:01:02.960 Or, uh, less prohibitive prohibitions that you give your body when you're bowling.

03:01:07.860 Or it could be that you trick yourself because your cognition is a little lowered into thinking

03:01:11.660 that you have these skills, you don't have it.

03:01:13.360 And so you perform better.

03:01:14.740 I just tricked myself.

03:01:15.700 Yeah.

03:01:16.160 So you perform better.

03:01:17.380 Yeah.

03:01:17.980 All right.

03:01:18.420 We have two more chats here coming in.

03:01:20.440 We have Lucas.

03:01:22.280 All right.

03:01:23.540 Let me venture a guess.

03:01:24.480 She's got a degree in gender studies or psychology.

03:01:27.360 I can't think of a more virulent mind virus strand than what spews out of a white chick.

03:01:33.120 And if you want to read along there, they pop up on the screen, uh, of a white chick,

03:01:37.920 liberal feminist.

03:01:38.700 Just thank God for MAGA.

03:01:41.520 Um, do you want to, he says she's, or he asks if you have a degree in gender studies

03:01:45.140 or psychology.

03:01:45.880 I do not.

03:01:46.660 Okay.

03:01:47.300 And I'm not a liberal.

03:01:48.780 Not a liberal.

03:01:49.580 Oh, okay.

03:01:50.640 Uh, you're, how do you describe yourself?

03:01:52.320 Marxist.

03:01:52.840 Leftist.

03:01:53.340 Leftist.

03:01:53.720 Okay.

03:01:54.260 Got it.

03:01:54.820 We have a message from Spyro.

03:01:56.560 Is it Spiro or Spyro?

03:01:57.980 It's Spiro.

03:01:58.860 Spiro.

03:01:59.440 Do you know these people?

03:02:00.560 I know.

03:02:01.000 I know that one.

03:02:01.780 That guy.

03:02:02.280 The name's familiar.

03:02:03.240 He says, I will demonstrate dual grapism.

03:02:06.460 A burrito cannot speak.

03:02:07.800 So it cannot consent to Brian.

03:02:10.360 A burrito cannot speak.

03:02:11.900 So it cannot ask for Brian's consent.

03:02:14.600 Don't matter though.

03:02:15.480 Brian likes it both ways.

03:02:17.060 Wow.

03:02:17.600 That is first off.

03:02:19.060 They really do.

03:02:19.600 I had a burrito bowl today just to get one thing.

03:02:23.540 Did it consent?

03:02:24.400 Is that a?

03:02:25.380 It wasn't a burrito.

03:02:27.480 It was a bowl.

03:02:28.020 Is that an inside joke I don't know of?

03:02:29.260 Yeah.

03:02:29.520 Yeah.

03:02:29.780 They joke about my burrito consumption among other things.

03:02:34.220 Burritos are amazing.

03:02:35.080 I'm a, I'm a fan.

03:02:36.440 Um, okay.

03:02:36.940 So we have, uh, let's see here.

03:02:39.020 We got this, uh, this lady thinks theft, grape, our crimes arising from capitalism and controlled

03:02:46.220 scarcity.

03:02:46.700 Does she realize that these are mentioned in the 10 commandments long before capitalism

03:02:52.220 ever existed?

03:02:53.040 That's from graffito tag.

03:02:54.500 Thank you.

03:02:54.780 Graffito tagged for that one.

03:02:56.200 Do you want to respond to, I don't know when I ever made the claim that like grape is a

03:03:00.320 result of capitalism.

03:03:02.140 Um, I think that capitalism creates certain conditions.

03:03:05.560 And so obviously when people don't have access to material possessions, um, then theft

03:03:11.540 is going to occur.

03:03:12.440 Okay.

03:03:13.120 All right.

03:03:13.400 Now we have, uh, really quick before we just jump back into it, we have a couple of super

03:03:18.420 chats guys.

03:03:18.920 We're 30 super chats.

03:03:20.540 We're 20 of 50, 30 super chats away from our pineapple pizza party and the roast session.

03:03:26.540 So if you don't hit that, we don't have to, I'll probably do it.

03:03:30.600 No, I'm kidding.

03:03:31.220 We, I think we should hit it guys.

03:03:32.760 Well, you got to hit it.

03:03:33.600 We got an hour and 15 minutes about an hour and 13 minutes.

03:03:36.780 If you want to hit the pizza party, definitely got to hit the pizza party.

03:03:40.180 Andrew, Andrew detests, detests pineapple on his pizza.

03:03:45.240 So he will, if we hit the threshold, we, he'll have one slice.

03:03:49.420 He makes you eat it.

03:03:50.400 No, I'm not.

03:03:50.760 I'm forced doctrine.

03:03:54.220 Wow.

03:03:54.840 I guess we're going to see forced doctrine in real life.

03:03:57.800 We have a super chat here from Ichimo.

03:04:00.640 Thank you for the super chat.

03:04:01.700 Ichimo.

03:04:01.960 Is she stupid?

03:04:03.720 Didn't she just concede?

03:04:05.600 They agreed to the delineation was holding them down.

03:04:07.900 So by that logic, Andrew isn't grape in his example with Rachel.

03:04:11.920 Do you want to respond to this?

03:04:13.340 I don't think a tenant of grape is that you need to be holding someone down.

03:04:16.620 Is that what they're saying?

03:04:20.080 Yeah, she was, she was just saying that she was happy that at least I had a delineation

03:04:24.220 that there could be marital rape.

03:04:25.840 Right.

03:04:26.860 Okay.

03:04:27.680 All right.

03:04:28.220 That's it for the supers.

03:04:29.060 Why don't we jump into our next topic?

03:04:30.960 Like now we kind of veered off into a couple of different paths.

03:04:35.000 Do you guys feel as if we have thoroughly covered feminism?

03:04:40.360 I'm fine.

03:04:40.700 Moving on to the next topic.

03:04:41.640 Because we could talk more about feminism.

03:04:44.660 I'm good.

03:04:45.080 Are you sure?

03:04:45.660 Is there anything you, anything on feminism you want to talk about?

03:04:49.720 I mean, what, what else is on your list?

03:04:51.620 I could give some prompts.

03:04:52.660 I mean, one of the prompts that you had included was the wage gap, for example.

03:04:56.740 Okay.

03:04:57.000 Uh, if perhaps we can do a short segment on wage gap and then get into some of the, I

03:05:02.300 guess the more different, maybe we can save that because that's just, there's just going

03:05:06.600 to be a disagreement on the empirics.

03:05:08.160 So maybe we can save that one.

03:05:10.240 Can I, what?

03:05:11.240 Um, okay.

03:05:12.340 Yeah.

03:05:13.260 Did we, uh, okay.

03:05:14.280 So while we do, we have, uh, your prompt abortion free and legal all nine months.

03:05:22.760 Yeah.

03:05:23.200 Legal with that legal.

03:05:25.020 Sorry.

03:05:25.360 You don't want to.

03:05:26.120 I do.

03:05:26.380 Oh yeah.

03:05:26.760 Okay.

03:05:26.980 Um, so abortion free and legal all nine months legal without restriction.

03:05:32.380 So does this mean, uh, up until, is there any point where?

03:05:38.960 Yeah.

03:05:39.380 So I think it's important to define the term abortion, which would be deliberate termination

03:05:42.860 of pregnancy.

03:05:43.440 Okay.

03:05:43.780 I think in some cases there can obviously be, uh, terminations of pregnancy that don't result

03:05:48.660 in the death of the fetus.

03:05:50.360 Um, and I would opt for that, uh, post 24 weeks.

03:05:53.860 Oh, so it's a bait question.

03:05:58.280 What a disingenuous bait question.

03:06:00.440 I don't think it's disingenuous.

03:06:01.400 So let me make sure that I steel man this properly.

03:06:04.060 I just want to steel man it.

03:06:04.900 I guess it's your turn.

03:06:05.520 Go ahead.

03:06:05.820 I just want to steel man it.

03:06:06.600 Sure.

03:06:06.960 So it is the case that you're against all abortions after 24 weeks if they end the life of the

03:06:16.180 child.

03:06:17.280 Uh, no, I think in the case, obviously to preserve the life of the pregnant person as

03:06:22.440 well as in severe fetal abnormality would be my exceptions.

03:06:25.240 Okay.

03:06:25.600 So you have exceptions to it, but generally, so the vast, vast majority of abortions would

03:06:30.360 be immoral after 24 weeks.

03:06:32.840 Um, again, I, I don't think abortion just means lethal outcome.

03:06:36.100 If we are talking about lethal outcome, I, I just don't see the practicality in it.

03:06:41.660 Yeah, I get it.

03:06:42.860 So you're, you're saying that after, um, the 24 week mark, if you're going to have an abortion

03:06:50.900 because you, whatever arbitrary reason you come up with that and you want it to end up

03:06:56.200 in the termination of the child and the child inside you, you're not allowed to do that.

03:06:59.960 That, that would be, um, that would be murder.

03:07:02.780 I would classify.

03:07:03.360 Yeah.

03:07:03.540 So then that's, it's just a bait question.

03:07:05.100 So you don't actually think that there should be on.

03:07:07.340 So you're just making a semantic distinction.

03:07:09.260 And you're, you're saying this works on Tik TOK all the time too, right?

03:07:13.220 Just for you, the audience.

03:07:14.720 Yeah, go ahead.

03:07:15.200 I will, uh, give you, um, some credence there that I do think that often that, that phrasing

03:07:22.640 of free and legal nine months can be very baiting because of how people view the term abortion.

03:07:28.100 Um, which is why I've also included, uh, without restriction.

03:07:33.540 And now on my prompts, I just do pro abortion.

03:07:36.540 Yeah.

03:07:36.700 Right.

03:07:36.940 Because you do want restrictions.

03:07:40.040 Uh, no.

03:07:41.240 Yeah.

03:07:41.540 Right.

03:07:41.900 But only because the semantic distinction is something other than what people associate

03:07:46.680 with abortion.

03:07:47.400 Like Colorado doesn't have any legislation regarding abortion.

03:07:50.380 And that's what I want.

03:07:51.300 I don't want legislation regarding abortion.

03:07:54.740 None.

03:07:55.760 Colorado has none.

03:07:56.560 So Canada doesn't have any, I believe Washington is another state.

03:07:59.860 So what happens in Colorado if you do terminate the pregnancy at eight months?

03:08:07.820 Uh, then it would just result in a live birth, either a hysterotomy abortion, which is similar

03:08:12.240 to a cesarean or an induction abortion.

03:08:14.320 Six months?

03:08:15.960 Uh, 30 weeks.

03:08:16.920 Same thing.

03:08:17.320 Again, it would depend specifically on the con.

03:08:21.260 Like, uh, obviously, um, I had a friend, uh, when we were in our twenties, um, like I told

03:08:27.580 you earlier, I live in Montana and any kind of abortion past 24 weeks is illegal.

03:08:31.560 So she had to travel to Colorado, uh, because her son had a severe fetal abnormality and he

03:08:36.620 would not, uh, survive birth.

03:08:38.280 Yeah, I get that.

03:08:39.400 But if they, there is no problems with the pregnancy, right?

03:08:43.740 And there's no direct harm or threat to the mother's lively or the mother's health.

03:08:49.520 What happens if you want to terminate the pregnancy at six months?

03:08:52.600 Then it would just result in an induction or a cesarean.

03:08:56.560 But at six months that could easily lead to the child's death.

03:09:00.680 It could just like birth could, you know, premature birth could.

03:09:04.600 So wouldn't you want there to be legislation against that?

03:09:06.940 Uh, no.

03:09:08.960 Yeah.

03:09:09.140 But the chances are significantly higher.

03:09:11.800 Can you tell me like, cause, cause this is always kind of where I get really frustrated

03:09:16.480 with people who are pro-life is kind of explaining to me the landscape of someone who has waited

03:09:22.160 30 weeks and then wants an abortion, you know, no longer to be pregnant for any reason.

03:09:29.340 Yeah.

03:09:30.960 Okay.

03:09:31.420 What's the question?

03:09:32.680 Can you explain the landscape?

03:09:34.040 Cause I feel like a lot of pro-lifers just kind of assume that there are people out there

03:09:37.920 who are like 30 weeks, just wake up, like not feeling the pregnancy anymore.

03:09:43.220 Might as well just go get it taken care of.

03:09:46.320 If you don't think there's a problem there, then why would you be adverse to legislation?

03:09:51.120 Just enforcing that you can't do acts.

03:09:53.500 Because legislation creates complications within a very complex medical condition, uh, which

03:10:01.060 we can see, uh, in, uh, primarily in Texas, especially in Idaho to where, you know, how

03:10:08.700 sick do you need to be?

03:10:10.240 How much in harm's way do you need to be before you can actually get access to an abortion or

03:10:16.240 to, to some kind of termination of pregnancy?

03:10:18.620 Okay.

03:10:20.540 But legislation can also offer clarity, right?

03:10:23.160 It doesn't.

03:10:24.560 Yeah.

03:10:24.800 Yeah.

03:10:25.040 It can't offer clarity.

03:10:26.100 It doesn't.

03:10:27.440 Yeah.

03:10:27.640 It can't, or it does not.

03:10:29.900 Descriptive or prescriptive?

03:10:30.520 It can't.

03:10:30.840 I, I, I don't see any, uh, effective legislation.

03:10:34.820 Why do we, then why do we have laws against murder?

03:10:38.120 I, again, I, I think there can be instances or certain contexts where it can be specific.

03:10:44.180 If you want me to relate that to abortion, like specifically, if we look at Texas, Texas

03:10:50.020 has, uh, regulations regarding exceptions for life of the mother, as well as health of

03:10:55.520 the mother.

03:10:56.120 But this has created complications because, uh, the Texas legislature won't give specifics

03:11:02.160 or even conditions, which would qualify under the, one second, under the exception, they

03:11:08.140 were sued and asked to do so.

03:11:10.860 And the Supreme court said they didn't have to.

03:11:12.480 Yeah.

03:11:12.720 Right.

03:11:13.020 So clarity is your issue, but you agree with me.

03:11:15.300 It's not clarity.

03:11:16.060 No.

03:11:16.440 Cause again, I, I just think pregnancy is so nuanced and it's so complex that legislation

03:11:22.160 cannot effectively do it.

03:11:23.680 If we want to talk about like, um, murder is also vastly complex, extremely nuanced.

03:11:31.040 The justifications vary from literally municipality to municipality.

03:11:35.660 Sure.

03:11:35.820 Um, but again, I, I think the ultimate authority and autonomy is with someone who is, uh, a medical

03:11:43.000 professional and understands the health history of their patient, as well as their, the, the

03:11:48.540 own patient's testimony of what's happening.

03:11:50.600 Well, it's not going to be up to them.

03:11:51.980 It's going to be up to the person actually having the abortion, right?

03:11:55.640 Uh, what do you mean?

03:11:56.960 What, what?

03:11:57.440 Well, it's not up to the medical, the medical professional is not making a prescription.

03:12:00.500 They're just executing the procedure in some capacities.

03:12:04.600 They are making prescriptions in terms of this is what you're, you know, these are where

03:12:09.740 your vitals at.

03:12:10.780 This is what they can, this can lead to.

03:12:12.820 These are the outcomes that they want to prevent.

03:12:15.420 Those are descriptors.

03:12:15.960 This is what we're going to do.

03:12:16.840 Those are descriptive, not prescriptive.

03:12:18.660 Okay.

03:12:19.020 In terms of like what you ought to do.

03:12:21.600 Okay.

03:12:22.180 I'm sorry.

03:12:22.560 What's your question?

03:12:23.700 So what you ought to do is going to be determined by the autonomy of the mother.

03:12:28.580 Um, not, not necessarily.

03:12:30.500 Then what's it going to be determined by?

03:12:32.520 Um, I mean, I, I would say like the pragmatics of the situation.

03:12:36.760 So who gets to make that decision?

03:12:38.980 I think it can be a cohesive, uh, discussion, but, uh, the doctor would have some authority

03:12:45.140 just like the doctor has authority in terms of, you know, I go in and I want my leg, uh,

03:12:52.480 amputated.

03:12:53.180 There's going to be, um, can specific context to where the doctor's not going to do it.

03:12:58.640 Um, I don't, I don't disagree with that in a manner prescribed by law, but you're saying

03:13:03.140 you don't want, I don't think that is prescribed by law.

03:13:04.780 Um, yeah, but it, yeah, it is.

03:13:06.800 You can't just cut off a person's foot cause they want you to.

03:13:09.660 That would be against the Hippocratic oath.

03:13:11.400 Well, that Hippocratic oath and law are two different things.

03:13:13.860 No, that is law.

03:13:14.800 If you make an oath, that is law and it is legally binding.

03:13:18.240 Yes, it is.

03:13:19.000 No.

03:13:19.160 Are we talking about like civil law or are we talking about legislating?

03:13:22.500 Yeah, it's civil law.

03:13:24.400 Civil law.

03:13:26.720 Um, and by the way, there are actually specificities too within the medical market of doctor discretion,

03:13:34.720 um, not being like, they can't, for instance, say, no, we're not going to treat you for the

03:13:41.620 symptoms that you're complaining about.

03:13:42.840 They still have to treat you.

03:13:44.160 Right.

03:13:44.560 And I'm sure that there's all sorts of different, some aspects of true, I'm not even disputing

03:13:48.920 that, but in this case, you're asking for no legislation, no, no legislation, no state

03:13:54.600 legislation, no federal legislation.

03:13:56.960 Yeah.

03:13:57.260 Correct.

03:13:57.760 Yeah.

03:13:57.880 Right.

03:13:58.080 So if you're saying no federal legislation, no state legislation, then the doctor can obviously,

03:14:03.240 you can obviously have a doctor who's just like, I'll just do whatever the person's asking

03:14:07.400 me to do.

03:14:07.880 Well, that's not happening.

03:14:08.800 Well, yeah, cause it's legislated.

03:14:10.580 It's not.

03:14:11.140 I gave you the example.

03:14:12.160 Yeah.

03:14:12.400 You know, I'm curious about this.

03:14:13.860 Can you pull it up, Ryan?

03:14:14.640 I gave you the example of Colorado.

03:14:15.380 Does Colorado have any abortion law whatsoever?

03:14:19.420 Can you pull that up for me?

03:14:20.320 Yeah.

03:14:20.520 Blake, can you, uh, find us something?

03:14:23.260 Canada as well.

03:14:24.280 Um, I'm pretty sure Washington too.

03:14:27.260 No abortion law?

03:14:28.740 No abortion law.

03:14:29.640 And, um, they actually had a lower abortion rate, um, up until, I want to say 2023.

03:14:36.340 So it says here, Colorado, at least from the AI, one of the most abortion friendly states

03:14:41.220 in the United States.

03:14:42.200 It's, it's, uh, legal in Colorado, all stages of pregnancy, constitutional protection in

03:14:47.760 2022, Colorado voters approved prop 79, enshrined the right to abortion state constitution.

03:14:52.460 So there's legislation on abortion.

03:14:54.760 That's incorrect.

03:14:57.720 I think, I mean, so there's definitely legislation in Colorado.

03:15:01.220 Colorado, what is there in Canada?

03:15:03.640 Um, I mean, constitute like constitutional protections.

03:15:08.460 Yeah.

03:15:08.940 That would definitely be the law of the land would be the constitution.

03:15:13.960 Um, maybe I can be more specific than in terms of legislation against abortion.

03:15:18.180 Because we did just read.

03:15:21.880 So you want legislation for abortion?

03:15:23.740 One second.

03:15:24.340 We did just read that the first line was abortion is legal.

03:15:28.040 Yeah.

03:15:28.740 Yeah.

03:15:28.980 So, yes.

03:15:30.760 But it's legal because it's enshrined in the law.

03:15:32.780 Because it's constitutionally protected.

03:15:34.440 Yeah.

03:15:34.820 Right.

03:15:35.160 So I, I would be against legislative in terms of like making laws against it.

03:15:40.040 If, I'm sorry if I wasn't specific on that.

03:15:42.180 Okay.

03:15:42.600 So it's just laws against it.

03:15:44.780 Correct.

03:15:45.060 Okay.

03:15:45.680 So what if the termination of the abortion, or if the doctor was willing to perform the

03:15:51.780 abortion in, uh, such a way where it terminated the fetus, even at eight months?

03:15:57.940 Okay.

03:15:58.880 Would you be for a law against that?

03:16:01.620 No.

03:16:03.120 No.

03:16:03.800 No.

03:16:04.360 Would that be murder?

03:16:05.460 Yes.

03:16:07.320 But no punishment?

03:16:09.700 Correct.

03:16:10.380 How is that morally consistent?

03:16:11.940 That's like the most monstrous thing I've ever heard.

03:16:13.660 So I think this is where like a utilitarian position would come into is that, um, I, when

03:16:22.520 we look at abortion post 21 weeks, even in states that have, um, all legal protections

03:16:27.920 towards abortion, um, it's 1% of abortions.

03:16:31.820 And then when we look at that 1% even further, it's prior to 28 weeks.

03:16:36.720 So post 28 weeks, I think a lot of pro-lifers just kind of make like up these ideas that people

03:16:43.100 want to come in and just have lethal terminations for no reason.

03:16:45.980 This is all descriptive.

03:16:47.160 You're just talking.

03:16:48.600 Yeah.

03:16:48.720 If I can finish.

03:16:49.880 Yeah.

03:16:50.000 But this is descriptive.

03:16:51.040 I'm asking about prescriptive.

03:16:53.160 Right.

03:16:53.520 So I'm, I'm getting there.

03:16:54.960 So, um, what I'm saying is that this is a non-existent, uh, at worst and rare event

03:17:03.920 at best.

03:17:04.940 And in terms of the deaths of fetuses within this criteria, that is going to be less than

03:17:12.080 the deaths of pregnant people who are denied abortions, who are medically necessary.

03:17:16.540 And so which one would I rather have?

03:17:19.200 I would rather have more people live, which would be the pregnant people.

03:17:24.160 Okay.

03:17:24.800 So, um, I'm still really confused here, but maybe you can give me some clarity.

03:17:28.920 Sure.

03:17:29.540 Some clarity.

03:17:30.220 You are aware that in, uh, Russia, abortion was also legal under first wave feminism going

03:17:39.200 into communism, right?

03:17:40.840 What time period?

03:17:41.940 Uh, would you like the exact dates?

03:17:43.820 Yeah.

03:17:44.260 Yeah.

03:17:44.540 So I think that this was, um, roughly, hang on, let me pull it up.

03:17:52.500 I got it in my notes here.

03:17:54.020 Um, USSR was the first country to make abortion fully legal up to term and paid for in state

03:18:03.180 hospitals.

03:18:03.780 Within 10 years of implementing that policy, they had three abortions for everyone, live

03:18:07.480 birth, and they had to outlaw abortion again.

03:18:09.600 Again, what time frame?

03:18:11.180 Um, I'm trying to pull the dates up here.

03:18:14.400 Yeah.

03:18:16.140 Hang on.

03:18:16.800 Hang on.

03:18:24.020 I didn't write the date down for that.

03:18:29.120 I'm, I'm just wondering, uh, essentially against like the conditions.

03:18:33.540 It's like around, uh, 1920, 1920.

03:18:36.720 Yeah.

03:18:36.960 Later restricted the band in 36 because of this problem.

03:18:41.420 So it was 1920 through 36, right around roughly the same exact time as what other amendment

03:18:47.580 was 1920.

03:18:48.600 Do you know?

03:18:49.800 Um, amendment in the United States, 1920, the right to vote.

03:18:53.020 Yeah.

03:18:53.340 Yeah.

03:18:53.640 So, so right around.

03:18:54.840 Are you saying that's correlated?

03:18:56.240 No, no, no.

03:18:56.580 I just think it's interesting that the right to vote and feminism, because in the twenties,

03:19:01.920 it was roaring and same thing in Russia, but they had three abortions for everyone, live

03:19:06.060 birth.

03:19:06.360 They had outlawed, literally had outlawed.

03:19:08.540 They didn't re, uh, reignite it.

03:19:10.380 That was a time where Russia was a pretty war-torn country, wasn't it?

03:19:14.220 Because Stalin was overthrowing the, uh, monarch regime and the Bolsheviks.

03:19:19.420 Yeah.

03:19:19.640 They need, they definitely needed to have human beings.

03:19:21.820 They, they knew that, but that was the problem is, is that if you have three to one and the

03:19:26.080 live births, you can't sustain the nation.

03:19:28.320 So when they reintroduced it in 56, it looks like that's the time period that they, they

03:19:32.960 re-legalized it was in 56, had significant regulations on it to prevent that from happening.

03:19:38.600 So hang on.

03:19:39.260 So I'm just saying, the reason I bring this up is because you claim, well, descriptively,

03:19:43.380 this isn't happening now.

03:19:44.840 Okay.

03:19:45.600 But descriptively it was happening when it was allowed without laws against it.

03:19:50.800 So I have actual evidence.

03:19:52.820 So again, like I, obviously this can be conditional outcomes, uh, depending on certain things.

03:19:58.860 Do you think that the sooner you have an abortion, the better?

03:20:02.380 I mean, I don't see how, um, like from my specific worldview, from the secular worldview,

03:20:10.680 because I always think abortion's wrong.

03:20:12.780 Oh, okay.

03:20:13.400 Yeah.

03:20:13.540 Um, so that, that, that would be one of my argumentations is that if you were having,

03:20:19.140 um, essentially a society to where medical access wasn't available, um, or it was at

03:20:24.720 a high cost, then this could delay, uh, obviously your opportunity to get an abortion, which may

03:20:29.820 cause it in later stages of pregnancy.

03:20:32.820 Yeah, that's rare.

03:20:34.120 What do you mean?

03:20:35.620 That in later stages of pregnancy, you're going to have abortions, right?

03:20:38.720 Isn't that what you said?

03:20:39.500 Um, I, it is rare because access is available.

03:20:42.900 So I'm saying if it's happening later in pregnancy, it's most likely because there are times where

03:20:47.900 access is not available.

03:20:50.240 Yeah.

03:20:50.760 Okay.

03:20:51.040 So from, but from your view, you're, you're just saying like, cause you don't see a distinction,

03:20:56.100 right?

03:20:56.800 You just think life begins in some arbitrary point, like 24 weeks or something tied in

03:21:01.040 with consciousness or something silly, right?

03:21:03.380 Something silly.

03:21:04.740 Um, well, it is silly cause you can't define consciousness.

03:21:07.300 It's not a definable thing.

03:21:08.740 I mean, do you think you have a subjective experience?

03:21:11.760 Sure.

03:21:11.800 But that's not defining, that's not defining consciousness.

03:21:15.080 What is that subjective experience?

03:21:16.600 I don't, I have no idea.

03:21:18.220 Do you?

03:21:19.300 What's it made of?

03:21:20.380 I think it's made of a lot of different components of things, but the fact that you recognize that

03:21:24.040 it exists.

03:21:24.920 Doesn't define what it is.

03:21:27.020 And what, what do you mean?

03:21:28.400 What kind of definition do you want?

03:21:29.700 Well, tell me what consciousness is.

03:21:31.460 The ability to have experiences.

03:21:33.220 Yeah.

03:21:33.420 So, um, are you saying that you have no experiences when you're unconscious?

03:21:40.640 Um, well, I think there's other aspects of experience that not just only go into terms of...

03:21:45.720 So you are having experiences, even when you're unconscious?

03:21:48.000 Uh, well, I don't think consciousness and being conscious are necessarily the same thing.

03:21:53.840 They're not?

03:21:56.260 Uh, no.

03:21:57.080 Like, I, I wouldn't say that, um, like someone who is sleeping doesn't have consciousness, even

03:22:05.600 you know, but you don't believe that, you don't believe that, um, when you're sleeping, you're

03:22:10.400 completely unconscious.

03:22:11.640 I'm sorry?

03:22:12.400 What?

03:22:12.540 You said earlier, you don't believe when you're sleeping, you're completely unconscious.

03:22:18.060 When we're talking about grape.

03:22:20.900 You're completely unconscious?

03:22:22.200 Yeah.

03:22:22.360 You said you didn't believe that you're completely unconscious when you sleep.

03:22:26.180 You are unconscious.

03:22:27.420 That, that was my main tenant is that you're having sex with someone who's unconscious.

03:22:30.640 Okay.

03:22:30.900 So then if you're not unconscious, if you are unconscious when you're asleep, are you experiencing

03:22:36.000 things when you sleep?

03:22:37.360 Yes.

03:22:37.760 You can still experience stimuli.

03:22:39.400 Then how could you be unconscious?

03:22:41.160 Because of other qualia, uh, qualia, sensation, emotions.

03:22:45.660 I mean, your ability to dream.

03:22:48.240 If consciousness then is defined as one who has...

03:22:52.080 Do you think babies?

03:22:52.180 Hang on.

03:22:52.700 I'm sorry.

03:22:52.920 If consciousness is, is expressed as one who has experiences.

03:22:56.900 I...

03:22:57.300 Hang on.

03:22:57.700 I'm sorry.

03:22:58.200 Can we, can we get back to...

03:22:59.120 No, no, we can't.

03:22:59.720 I just want to make sure...

03:23:00.980 Well, I feel like we pivoted from...

03:23:01.800 No, we really didn't pivot.

03:23:03.160 You pivoted it here.

03:23:04.340 No, no.

03:23:04.920 You said arbitrarily at 24 weeks.

03:23:06.700 That's a different subject than what we were talking about.

03:23:09.080 Yeah, but I just want to...

03:23:10.300 We can table that, but I want to get back to the 20...

03:23:11.140 Can we just finish this real quick?

03:23:12.300 It'll only take one second.

03:23:13.440 I'm fine.

03:23:14.940 Consciousness one who has experiences is conscious.

03:23:19.920 If you're having experience when you're unconscious, then you can't be unconscious, then you must have

03:23:25.240 consciousness even when you're unconscious, right?

03:23:29.720 Um, yes, there, there are aspects that you can have consciousness when you are unconscious.

03:23:34.640 I don't think that those are sentiments.

03:23:34.980 So are you actually unconscious?

03:23:37.260 Yes, because I think unconscious and consciousness are different.

03:23:40.720 What?

03:23:41.100 What's different?

03:23:42.060 I have no consciousness or I do?

03:23:43.740 What, what is, what is being conscious to you?

03:23:46.140 I don't, well, it's not a thing, again, that's definable, really.

03:23:49.720 I'm just, in terms of, so you, when your wife is sleeping, that's as good as she's awake?

03:23:56.260 What do you mean?

03:23:58.720 In terms of conscious and unconscious?

03:24:01.720 Yeah, I think that she still has consciousness.

03:24:04.400 When she's sleeping?

03:24:05.380 Yes.

03:24:05.900 Even though she's unconscious?

03:24:07.380 Right.

03:24:07.980 Well, no, she's not, no, no, she's not, I don't think she's unconscious.

03:24:11.080 I think she's knocked out.

03:24:12.600 What's the difference?

03:24:13.540 Well, this is the thing about consciousness.

03:24:15.360 Like I said, it's not definable.

03:24:17.060 I think Therefore I Am is the best we can come up with.

03:24:19.680 But we agree.

03:24:21.040 On what?

03:24:21.680 That when you're sleeping, you're still have consciousness.

03:24:26.140 I agree with that.

03:24:27.020 Even though you're not conscious.

03:24:27.680 From your worldview, yeah, from my worldview, that makes sense.

03:24:30.840 From your worldview, that makes no sense.

03:24:32.020 Why does that make sense from your worldview?

03:24:33.440 Because you're the one who's making the determination as to when life begins.

03:24:37.380 It's 24 weeks because of consciousness.

03:24:39.260 What do we mean by life?

03:24:41.040 Consciousness.

03:24:42.160 What do you mean by life?

03:24:43.840 I'm doing an internal critique.

03:24:45.460 Then you can do your internal critique.

03:24:46.500 It does, because we do, like, obviously there's different, there's different terms when we

03:24:53.180 talk about, like, the mode of life.

03:24:54.980 Like, I'm sure you would recognize that cellular division and metabolic life is very different

03:24:59.880 than someone having a subjective experience.

03:25:01.980 Yeah, I agree it's human life.

03:25:03.760 You agree it's human life.

03:25:05.420 Yes.

03:25:06.060 Great.

03:25:06.480 There's no disagreement there.

03:25:07.800 Right.

03:25:08.000 What I'm saying, that's before 24 weeks.

03:25:09.940 But it is different than someone having a conscious experience.

03:25:13.880 To you.

03:25:14.240 Or a subjective experience.

03:25:15.380 Yeah, to you.

03:25:15.960 Why is that not different for you?

03:25:17.620 Because for you, that's the thing you value, not the life itself.

03:25:21.980 Well, yeah, without a subjective experience, there's no society, right?

03:25:25.080 Right.

03:25:25.580 But the problem is, is that you can't demonstrate there's no subjective experience before 24 weeks.

03:25:30.700 So that's one.

03:25:33.020 And two, even if you could say there's no subjective experience before 24 weeks, consciousness

03:25:38.920 itself is the one thing that human beings really don't understand very well.

03:25:43.700 Okay.

03:25:43.960 We just really don't understand it at all.

03:25:46.300 So it's not easy to define.

03:25:48.480 We don't know why we have it.

03:25:49.560 It makes no real sense.

03:25:50.900 Right.

03:25:51.400 It's a thing not well understood.

03:25:53.120 So the reason I point out that it's arbitrary is because it's kind of impossible to prove

03:25:59.060 that there's no subjective experience before 24 weeks in a fetus.

03:26:02.280 It's just like impossible to prove that.

03:26:05.580 I mean, I agree.

03:26:06.660 I guess it's in kind of the, I classify it as like the same as like puberty.

03:26:12.040 Like obviously there are certain metrics that you hit when you have reached puberty, but

03:26:17.340 when does someone like go through puberty or experience puberty or how long does puberty

03:26:21.000 take is going to be different.

03:26:22.140 So sure.

03:26:23.380 It's an arbitrary metric.

03:26:24.680 Yeah.

03:26:24.820 I don't disagree.

03:26:26.000 Yeah.

03:26:26.180 So that was my whole point.

03:26:27.240 It's like you came up with a 24 week arbitrary metric.

03:26:30.020 Um, I think in some instance, like there, there are going to be some instances where

03:26:36.780 yes, things are arbitrary.

03:26:37.660 It's just, you just have to draw a line somewhere.

03:26:39.820 Okay.

03:26:40.220 So, so we'll, we'll table that.

03:26:41.820 We know it's arbitrary.

03:26:42.820 I'm glad that we got the semantics taken care of so that we understand.

03:26:45.380 No, I'm sorry.

03:26:46.020 And then it didn't seem like we agreed.

03:26:48.160 I'm glad we do.

03:26:48.880 And then moving forward.

03:26:49.980 Well, we kind of do, but moving forward from there.

03:26:52.540 Right.

03:26:53.380 I would still like to know why it is on the legislation end.

03:26:56.740 Uh, and then we can just move the topic because there's a bunch of them I want to get to and

03:27:00.560 we only have so much time, but I just want to know when it comes, when it comes to legislation,

03:27:05.460 they did not legislate there and it did actually descriptively lead to an increase in the number

03:27:11.600 of abortions that happened.

03:27:12.680 There was no regulation on it and it was the three to one against live births.

03:27:15.660 That's obviously very unhealthy for everybody.

03:27:17.600 That's not good.

03:27:18.820 Right.

03:27:19.540 So I have the descriptive claim that that already happened when there was no legislation.

03:27:24.280 Um, what, what would be your demonstration here?

03:27:26.740 I don't think you've established like a causal that it, well, without abortions,

03:27:32.400 there wouldn't have been abortions.

03:27:33.400 Yeah.

03:27:33.660 That's pretty causal.

03:27:35.400 Well, in terms of like, what is the reason that people are terminating pregnant?

03:27:40.160 So, so let me put it.

03:27:41.420 Who cares why they're determined?

03:27:42.680 I think that really, um, is a huge assessment that we have to make in terms of, uh, if we

03:27:50.060 want abortion to reduce.

03:27:51.020 So if you and I are on the same goal that we want to reduce abortions.

03:27:55.080 And then having legislation against abortion, we does that.

03:27:58.620 Uh, no, I, I would just say it just, uh, limits access to safe abortions.

03:28:03.340 If we're going to actually pragmatically reduce abortion, I would say that we would want to

03:28:07.900 prevent unwanted pregnancy, which would be through comprehensive sex health education,

03:28:12.080 which would be through long acting reversible contraceptives.

03:28:15.360 Um, so that would be one way to prevent it.

03:28:17.920 If we're going to, when people get pregnant, give them more options to where they want to,

03:28:23.320 or feel like they have the capability to take care of another child, that would be thing like

03:28:28.480 access to healthcare, access to, uh, paid parental leave, access to subsidized daycare.

03:28:35.620 Those things would actually meaningful, meaningfully reduce abortion.

03:28:40.400 Um, just with legislation, huh?

03:28:42.600 So with legislation, it doesn't, it does.

03:28:45.580 And you actually conceded to this in the first statement you made.

03:28:49.180 So here's what you said.

03:28:50.480 You said it limits your access to safe abortions.

03:28:54.080 Do you, do you think that if abortions are unsafe, more or less people will have them?

03:28:58.060 Um, if abortions are unsafe, more or less people will have them, um, more or less women will

03:29:05.480 have them if they're unsafe.

03:29:08.960 I think I, I don't, it's hard to gauge if it would be more or less, cause I think someone

03:29:17.780 who has an abortion, I would say less women would have an abortion.

03:29:24.420 Less.

03:29:25.040 Yeah.

03:29:25.240 Yeah.

03:29:25.380 So then necessarily legislating against abortions equals less abortions.

03:29:31.920 Um, it just equals.

03:29:34.220 Less abortions.

03:29:36.200 In some aspects, yes.

03:29:38.400 And in others, no.

03:29:40.060 No, in all aspects.

03:29:41.160 Yes.

03:29:41.760 Because if there's one less abortion than there was yesterday and there would ordinarily have

03:29:47.560 been one more abortion today that, that, um, would not have happened had you not legislated

03:29:52.500 yesterday, then there is less abortion.

03:29:55.100 Okay.

03:29:55.800 Correct?

03:29:56.480 Sure.

03:29:57.260 Yeah.

03:29:57.520 So then legislating does.

03:29:58.800 I mean, it would, it would really depend cause I think like obviously in Texas, um, there

03:30:03.960 has been restrictions on abortion and we just see people flee to other states.

03:30:08.080 Where abortion's legal.

03:30:09.080 And then also in Texas as well, I would argue that like with the heartbeat bill when it was

03:30:14.540 six weeks because people had such a short window to decide if they could get, would want an abortion

03:30:20.320 or have a child that they erred on the side of caution and had an abortion.

03:30:24.300 Yeah.

03:30:24.640 But so the legislation in fact increased abortions because of people would have had more time.

03:30:28.700 But what if there was no heartbeat bill and it was just decided to, to actually carry the

03:30:34.400 child to term?

03:30:35.160 Um, well, here's my reputation of both those arguments.

03:30:37.480 The first is all that that would do is signify to me that you put legislation at conception,

03:30:43.640 uh, and don't give people an opportunity.

03:30:46.160 Well, you're not pregnant at conception.

03:30:47.300 Yeah.

03:30:49.040 You could still make the legislation at conception.

03:30:51.720 So if, so, so then would IUDs be illegal?

03:30:54.820 Well, no, just the conception of the pregnancy, whatever that is, right?

03:30:57.780 Whatever you want to term that.

03:30:58.820 Conception is different from.

03:31:00.020 Okay, fine.

03:31:00.640 Whatever the semantic distinction is.

03:31:02.120 I'm just saying.

03:31:02.500 It's not a semantic distinction.

03:31:04.420 Okay.

03:31:05.240 Were you confused about what I said?

03:31:07.500 Yes.

03:31:08.080 Okay.

03:31:08.820 When does a woman get pregnant?

03:31:10.660 Implantation.

03:31:11.320 Okay.

03:31:11.820 So whenever that is, whenever a woman gets pregnant, maybe I misspoke.

03:31:14.940 Whenever a woman gets pregnant.

03:31:16.500 Okay.

03:31:17.300 You could just legislate right then and there.

03:31:19.940 That's when life begins.

03:31:20.780 You're not allowed to have an abortion.

03:31:21.740 So you can legislate against abortion effectively before the six week marker.

03:31:24.900 You could just say, nope, not allowed, period.

03:31:27.780 Okay.

03:31:28.340 Right.

03:31:29.160 So that would, uh, significantly limit those.

03:31:31.960 Because you say people are just panicking because they have a narrower window.

03:31:34.840 I'm saying take the window out and then they won't panic.

03:31:37.080 You just can't do it.

03:31:38.280 So then you say, well, they flee to other states where abortion is legal.

03:31:42.000 Okay.

03:31:42.540 Fair enough.

03:31:43.100 So then if you made abortion illegal in those states, abortion would drastically reduce

03:31:46.980 well, necessarily.

03:31:48.960 Sure.

03:31:50.000 Yeah.

03:31:50.260 So in both cases, it seems like we can greatly reduce abortion regardless of making it criminal.

03:31:56.700 In fact, it's going to reduce.

03:31:58.920 I would say that having a more pragmatic approach, uh, would be number one, more effective because

03:32:04.740 we would see better outcomes.

03:32:06.560 Um, and again, you, you just really lose me on, uh, regulating a woman's autonomy.

03:32:13.460 I think if we're going to give anyone the choice to determine, uh, family planning, to determine, uh, health risks, to determine, um, mental health, then, then it would be the person who's, who's carrying the pregnancy.

03:32:26.940 I literally made the argument earlier that you care about the woman's autonomy.

03:32:30.660 And you said, no, the doctor also, he has the authority and say, wait, wait, that, that was a, that was a different delineation.

03:32:37.820 We're talking about in terms of the procedure that you're having of which is an abortion.

03:32:41.600 There's no different, there's different abortion procedures.

03:32:43.960 So I thought that's what we were talking about because obviously if we're, if you're in the third termination or I'm sorry, in the third trimester, there are different methods that you can, um, enact in order to terminate the pregnancy.

03:32:55.600 So when it came to that method, yes, obviously the doctor can have the authority on that.

03:33:00.260 But when it came to the decision, yes, that, that is the patient.

03:33:04.300 Yeah.

03:33:04.800 Why shouldn't, why shouldn't we be allowed to limit women's autonomy?

03:33:08.240 Just like we limit men's autonomy by sending them off to war.

03:33:11.540 Um, I just don't see the justification for it.

03:33:13.520 I don't see the justification for sending men off to war, but it is necessary.

03:33:16.500 We agree on that.

03:33:16.880 But it is necessary.

03:33:19.060 Uh, I, I disagree.

03:33:20.440 I don't think it's necessary.

03:33:21.660 You don't?

03:33:22.300 No.

03:33:22.680 Okay.

03:33:23.280 Got it.

03:33:23.720 So then if your nation was invaded and men didn't want to fight, your nation gets taken over.

03:33:27.200 That's that, right?

03:33:30.100 Yeah.

03:33:31.500 So basically there's no duty for men to in any way fight in a compelled way.

03:33:36.080 I mean, having a duty is different than, than being forced to, um, to do something.

03:33:41.360 Yes, absolutely.

03:33:42.240 Okay.

03:33:42.860 I, I would think if, if this is central to your society and, and, um, then yeah, people

03:33:47.780 would step up and want to do it.

03:33:49.740 If they don't.

03:33:52.940 Because they're scared.

03:33:55.300 Okay.

03:33:55.940 Yeah.

03:33:56.280 They're scared.

03:33:56.800 I mean, they're scared, right?

03:33:58.060 But I mean, you do realize that many, many, many nations, they have compelled service.

03:34:03.660 I think again, like when we, when we go back to this idea of like engaging in war, I think

03:34:08.180 we need to have a critique on society in general.

03:34:12.880 Um, well, we don't even need to do that.

03:34:15.220 I'll just grant for you.

03:34:16.000 I think we do.

03:34:16.800 Well, I'm granting it for you.

03:34:17.960 I'm just going to grant for you.

03:34:19.240 Okay.

03:34:19.900 You're right.

03:34:20.800 There should be no compelled service.

03:34:22.560 That still doesn't actually answer though.

03:34:24.460 Why autonomy is the thing in which we should, we should not limit autonomy for people.

03:34:28.640 Why not?

03:34:28.940 I think there can be instances where we limit autonomy.

03:34:32.120 Um, but I just don't see a reason for, for abortion.

03:34:36.300 Well, I think you do.

03:34:37.900 You've already expressed multiple times that there would be.

03:34:40.720 How is it ethical to force someone to sustain pregnancy?

03:34:43.260 After six months?

03:34:44.760 Yeah.

03:34:45.860 So what if it's going to kill the baby?

03:34:49.660 Okay.

03:34:50.580 I don't think that they have an obligation to give their, uh, for them to have their body

03:34:56.920 used as life support.

03:34:57.880 So then at nine months they can kill their baby?

03:35:01.320 Again, we would just terminate the connection.

03:35:04.660 So they, their labor would just be induced.

03:35:08.160 You do.

03:35:08.920 Yeah.

03:35:09.140 The purpose of abortion is centered around pregnancy.

03:35:11.880 Yeah.

03:35:12.140 So if you want pregnancy to end, there's a lot of different ways we can do that.

03:35:15.640 And obviously there's no necessity in killing the fetus once you're.

03:35:24.140 What do you mean?

03:35:24.800 Um, like for instance, you, you claim that the mom has bodily autonomy, right?

03:35:30.180 And that shouldn't be violated.

03:35:32.500 And the bodily autonomy is that the baby needs to use her body.

03:35:37.160 Right.

03:35:37.560 So what happens if the baby is born and the mom doesn't want to feed the baby?

03:35:42.300 Well, um, so, sure.

03:35:45.340 Sure.

03:35:46.020 So I think, uh, we need to decide what our individual responsibilities and what societal

03:35:50.580 responsibilities.

03:35:51.780 It's about autonomy.

03:35:52.560 I thought it, I haven't even finished.

03:35:55.020 So when we talk about, uh, societal responsibilities, obviously if a parent, um, doesn't want to

03:36:02.360 take care of their child, then they would become a word of the state and then the state would

03:36:06.940 take on those responsibilities of caring for the child.

03:36:09.500 I don't understand.

03:36:10.320 Why can't the mom just choose to not feed the baby until the baby expires?

03:36:15.300 What do you mean?

03:36:16.400 Is she taking on the parental role?

03:36:19.300 Yeah.

03:36:19.460 Well, she had the baby.

03:36:21.260 Okay.

03:36:21.660 She had it.

03:36:22.560 Okay.

03:36:22.960 Let's say she had it at her prom.

03:36:24.700 She was like, she had it at her prom.

03:36:26.300 Yeah.

03:36:26.320 She was outside.

03:36:27.040 She had a prom night dumpster baby as family guy would, would reference it.

03:36:31.200 Okay.

03:36:31.740 She had a prom night dumpster baby.

03:36:34.280 And so anyway, she has the baby.

03:36:36.340 Okay.

03:36:36.780 This is important.

03:36:37.480 It's actually an important distinction.

03:36:38.700 So anyway, she has the baby and then she just, she doesn't want to feed it.

03:36:43.680 She just doesn't want to because it's her body and it's her autonomy.

03:36:46.660 So she just lets it die.

03:36:49.540 So, um, if we are, once the baby is born, um, as a society, uh, obviously the care for

03:36:59.860 the child needs to be determined.

03:37:01.820 Yeah.

03:37:02.340 So at that point, um, the mother can either claim the parental responsibility and which

03:37:08.220 comes with all the obligations of obviously feeding the child, or, um, if they don't claim

03:37:13.100 it, then obviously that baby would be awarded the state.

03:37:15.460 So now the mother is in possession of a baby that's not hers.

03:37:21.000 So I think in order to avoid kidnapping charges or harms towards a ward of the state, she has,

03:37:27.780 she, she needs to turn it over to the state.

03:37:29.720 So she has a duty to turn the baby over to the state without correct, because she's in

03:37:33.740 possession of a ward of the state.

03:37:35.640 So it's essentially, uh, almost a kidnapping charge.

03:37:38.820 Okay.

03:37:39.440 So I want to make sure I get this right.

03:37:41.380 So the mother, if she says this baby is mine, then she has the obligation to breastfeed it,

03:37:47.120 right?

03:37:47.320 Um, I mean, I, I wouldn't, I would say, uh, breastfeeding would be a reasonable obligation,

03:37:55.320 but why, why is there not formula?

03:37:57.680 Well, because formula is extremely unhealthy for babies.

03:38:01.880 Well, I mean, formula is what has, um, like save the lives of, of babies.

03:38:08.820 Yes.

03:38:09.120 When there's no, you know, their mom's breast milk around.

03:38:11.760 Sure.

03:38:12.180 Right.

03:38:12.480 A lot of women don't have the capacity to breastfeed.

03:38:14.440 No, most of them have the capacity to breastfeed.

03:38:16.000 They don't.

03:38:16.580 They do.

03:38:16.980 A lot of women struggle with breastfeeding.

03:38:18.640 A lot.

03:38:19.000 Yes.

03:38:19.340 You can even make that claim.

03:38:20.480 Cause I would say a lot is like 1% of women would be a lot.

03:38:23.860 Do you think that if a mother chooses not to breastfeed that she's harming her child?

03:38:28.560 Well, no.

03:38:29.080 Well, yeah.

03:38:29.900 But what I'm looking at is.

03:38:31.400 Do you think that's to the degree of neglect?

03:38:34.820 Um, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that it's neglectful.

03:38:38.280 There could be reasons for it, including ignorance.

03:38:40.860 There could be just like ignorance.

03:38:42.040 Should she retain, uh, custody?

03:38:45.500 Even if she doesn't under most cases, probably.

03:38:47.800 Yes.

03:38:48.080 Because she's feeding the baby.

03:38:49.320 Yeah.

03:38:49.460 But I think that the, it, I think that there should be a state mandatory propaganda campaign

03:38:54.460 that mothers should breastfeed their children.

03:38:55.860 Yes.

03:38:57.000 Should she receive legal consequences if she chooses not to?

03:38:59.840 If she had the capacity to do so and decided to give the kid poison instead.

03:39:04.720 Yeah.

03:39:04.980 Probably.

03:39:05.200 Well, I'm not, not.

03:39:06.220 So when you say poison, you mean formula.

03:39:08.640 Yeah.

03:39:08.980 Okay.

03:39:09.520 In comparison to the breast milk, it's poison.

03:39:10.980 Okay.

03:39:11.520 So when.

03:39:12.920 Like you get most of your immune system from your mother's breast milk.

03:39:15.300 Sure.

03:39:15.480 Sure.

03:39:15.800 Um, when, when the child is born, you acknowledge that breast milk has not come in.

03:39:22.780 Uh, no.

03:39:26.200 No.

03:39:27.360 Okay.

03:39:27.780 So breast milk hasn't necessarily come in once the child is born.

03:39:32.080 Um, and if you don't.

03:39:33.220 Yeah.

03:39:33.400 Most of the time breast milk has been there before the child's born.

03:39:36.800 Uh, no.

03:39:37.640 Yeah.

03:39:38.120 There's, uh, I believe it's called colostrum, which is not the same as breast milk.

03:39:42.740 It's more like a clear liquid.

03:39:43.640 How do you think babies used to eat?

03:39:46.260 Well, one second, because this is the process that I had to go through when I gave birth.

03:39:50.280 Like I breastfed for eight months and it took, um, I think at least 36 hours before my breast

03:39:56.360 milk came in after birth.

03:39:58.740 And so when you have that choice, when, when parents make that decision.

03:40:02.540 You mean after the colostrum?

03:40:04.300 Correct.

03:40:05.000 Yeah.

03:40:06.880 So how do, how do babies eat?

03:40:11.240 One, one second.

03:40:11.980 So if you don't, uh, essentially start engaging in nursing, then, then you don't know your capacity

03:40:19.740 for lactation.

03:40:20.820 So I'm asking if once birth happens and the doctor's like, are you going to breastfeed

03:40:25.820 or wish you get formula?

03:40:27.040 Yeah.

03:40:27.860 Is there some kind of legal obligation for you that the mother tries to breastfeed?

03:40:32.820 I don't understand that.

03:40:33.940 What are you asking me?

03:40:35.500 After birth.

03:40:36.440 Yeah.

03:40:36.880 Do you think women should be forced to attempt to nurse?

03:40:40.180 I think that there should be nursing as soon as it's possible to nurse.

03:40:43.860 Well, that's, that's a yes or a no.

03:40:45.220 Do you think women should be forced to nurse post birth?

03:40:47.860 Maybe not.

03:40:49.020 Okay.

03:40:49.580 So, so then how would, how would you ever.

03:40:51.220 Because it would need to be within the confines of reason.

03:40:53.160 Well, how, how would you ever then like say that someone can have legal consequence for

03:40:57.980 not nursing after birth?

03:41:00.940 Okay.

03:41:01.420 So I see what you're saying now.

03:41:03.280 Let me get this right.

03:41:05.200 There is a thing, a small gap or a small possible window where you can't breastfeed after baby

03:41:11.560 born.

03:41:13.240 Right.

03:41:14.340 You can't breastfeed.

03:41:15.600 Can't.

03:41:16.560 You can nurse, but it's not, um, fully breast milk.

03:41:21.660 Yeah.

03:41:22.180 Okay.

03:41:22.440 So you can breastfeed.

03:41:24.220 You can nurse, but again, it's not fully breast milk.

03:41:28.180 It's not the complete nutritional breakdown.

03:41:30.720 Is the baby getting, is the baby eating?

03:41:33.060 Um, not in the complete way that breast milk does because that, that, that is something

03:41:38.900 that, that is something that you do monitor with your doctor because they want to make

03:41:43.000 sure.

03:41:43.340 Okay.

03:41:43.660 So I see we're speaking past each other.

03:41:45.560 So let's back up.

03:41:47.360 When you put your nipple in the baby's mouth, is the baby getting food?

03:41:50.980 It depends.

03:41:52.980 Most of the time.

03:41:55.000 Um, in adequate amounts, that's debatable, but some, and how early do they usually start

03:42:01.060 getting an adequate amount within?

03:42:02.640 It depends.

03:42:03.760 Um, again, it's, I had my son quite a while ago.

03:42:06.280 Um, I want to say mine came in around 36 weeks or I'm sorry, 36 hours, but three days, um,

03:42:13.220 it was a day and a half, day and a half.

03:42:14.740 Yeah.

03:42:14.940 But again, I, I think other, it's just, you know, when, what, when does puberty occur?

03:42:19.900 It just depends.

03:42:20.880 So hang on.

03:42:21.200 So let's back up.

03:42:22.300 So milk, your full breast milk comes in within a day.

03:42:28.900 Um, yeah, it could be a couple of days.

03:42:30.540 It could be a day.

03:42:31.220 Sure.

03:42:31.400 I was just reading the reason I said three days is because it said, it said three to five

03:42:35.200 when I was looking up on the colostrum, right?

03:42:36.920 Yeah.

03:42:37.060 But it's, it can be as early as 12 hours, maybe.

03:42:39.760 Yeah.

03:42:40.400 And I, um, I think even some of my friends have had breast milk before birth.

03:42:43.360 Yeah.

03:42:43.480 I don't, I don't see any problem with feeding the baby that.

03:42:45.780 Yeah.

03:42:46.380 That seems fine.

03:42:47.740 So I'm just, but if you don't, um, begin nursing, then you would essentially inhibit that

03:42:55.460 process to where you, you just never produce breast milk.

03:43:00.220 So you should start doing that.

03:43:01.560 So I'm asking you, should mothers be forced to nurse post-birth, even though we don't know

03:43:08.700 their capacity to breastfeed.

03:43:10.960 Yes.

03:43:11.940 So you think women should be forced to breastfeed?

03:43:13.880 Yeah.

03:43:15.240 All right.

03:43:16.440 The problem with that is what?

03:43:19.440 You have accepted responsibility for the baby, right?

03:43:22.520 By your worldview?

03:43:24.180 Yes.

03:43:24.740 But obviously if there are other.

03:43:25.420 So then you have an obligation to feed the baby.

03:43:27.180 So then, yeah.

03:43:28.640 And obviously you, there are other means which you can feed the baby.

03:43:32.200 Poisonous means.

03:43:33.440 There are still other means.

03:43:35.160 So feed, do you think that feeding kids poison is a good idea?

03:43:38.500 I think kids that are fed is best.

03:43:41.420 Absolutely.

03:43:42.320 So do you just like, you would, would you give the baby like straight fucking chocolate?

03:43:47.060 Because it's in.

03:43:47.720 Of course not.

03:43:48.360 Why?

03:43:49.540 Because, um, breast milk and formula require are essentially the only liquids at that point

03:43:56.120 where an infant can get their full nutritional profile.

03:43:58.880 You're not getting your full nutritional profile though.

03:44:01.660 I mean, you, you are.

03:44:04.600 Otherwise you would die.

03:44:05.900 You're not.

03:44:06.960 No, you, you wouldn't necessarily mean you die, but it would inhibit the development of

03:44:10.960 your brain.

03:44:11.620 It would inhibit the development of the brain.

03:44:13.080 I'm not interested in having a discussion between formula and, and breast.

03:44:16.920 Well, which one do you think is better for the baby?

03:44:18.680 I think fed is best, but, um, I opted for.

03:44:22.320 That's not what I asked.

03:44:23.180 What a cop out.

03:44:24.260 Which one is better for the baby?

03:44:26.140 I opted to breastfeed.

03:44:27.440 Why?

03:44:29.720 Because it was cheaper.

03:44:32.100 Because, and you thought it was better for the baby, right?

03:44:33.960 Yes.

03:44:34.420 Yeah.

03:44:34.740 So then the thing is, it's like, why couldn't I compel you to do that?

03:44:38.260 Or shouldn't I be able to?

03:44:39.280 I think it should be like, obviously the person's will.

03:44:43.660 I think will should be considered.

03:44:44.400 Yeah.

03:44:44.440 But now you're in charge of somebody else.

03:44:46.540 Like if I fed my kid chocolate every single day as his only source of nutrition, wouldn't

03:44:51.620 you advocate that the state came in and took that kid from me?

03:44:55.920 Um, if you fed them chocolate every day?

03:44:58.240 No, that's all I fed them.

03:45:00.500 Is chocolate?

03:45:01.160 Mm-hmm.

03:45:02.620 Um, I mean, if, if they were starving, yeah.

03:45:07.700 Yeah.

03:45:07.960 So depriving.

03:45:08.740 I mean, I guess, I guess at what degree are we deciding that parents have their children

03:45:12.360 or parents have their children taken away based on their diet?

03:45:15.200 We don't always know what's optimal, but in this case we do.

03:45:18.300 Wouldn't that be arbitrary?

03:45:18.840 In this case, we do actually know what's optimal.

03:45:20.920 Wouldn't that be arbitrary?

03:45:22.560 In, in the one case, sure.

03:45:24.300 Okay.

03:45:24.700 But in this case, no, we actually do know what's optimal here.

03:45:28.120 So I, I think if we're talking about like what we would want to happen, um, I, I agree

03:45:35.880 with you that like breast milk is great and it's the optimal choice.

03:45:39.240 I don't think someone should be forced to do so.

03:45:41.300 Why not?

03:45:42.440 Seems like good idea to force them to.

03:45:43.880 If you're going to take possession of your child, I don't see any problem with them telling

03:45:48.220 you that, Hey, because it's your body.

03:45:50.460 So, I mean, so I think obviously then the other alternative, would you have an issue if

03:45:56.400 they pump?

03:45:57.400 No.

03:45:57.940 And then, and then breast milk.

03:45:58.940 But that's the same thing.

03:46:00.060 Breast milk.

03:46:01.340 Okay.

03:46:01.840 Yeah.

03:46:02.620 That's the most optimal thing to give them.

03:46:04.060 Right.

03:46:04.420 I, I think again, this would just relate down to autonomy because obviously everyone's conditions

03:46:08.580 are different.

03:46:09.460 Yeah.

03:46:09.580 But in this case you have a dependent.

03:46:10.700 More, I think more women would breastfeed if we had more social safety nets when it

03:46:16.260 comes to women giving birth.

03:46:18.200 Yeah.

03:46:18.640 But I also think they would breastfeed if they say you need to breastfeed this child.

03:46:23.320 You must.

03:46:24.120 I think it's just an, an unreasonable.

03:46:26.640 So what, what if your child, I think it's the most reasonable.

03:46:29.280 What if your child needed blood?

03:46:31.440 Would you be obligated?

03:46:33.360 Would you want legal laws that parents are forced to give them their blood?

03:46:37.760 Yeah.

03:46:38.840 And the problem with this in society would be what?

03:46:41.580 What about kidney?

03:46:42.980 No.

03:46:43.700 So where, where are you, why are you drawing the line there?

03:46:45.760 Draw the same place that you would on the idea that if it's going to kill you.

03:46:50.780 A kidney, getting rid of your kidney wouldn't kill you.

03:46:52.640 Oh yeah.

03:46:53.040 It's going to lead to your demise much faster.

03:46:55.120 It wouldn't kill you though.

03:46:56.380 Yes.

03:46:56.800 It would.

03:46:57.200 That's killing you.

03:46:58.240 It's not.

03:46:59.100 You can survive with one kidney.

03:47:00.760 For, yes.

03:47:01.280 For less time than you can survive with two.

03:47:03.140 It doesn't kill you.

03:47:03.920 That's killing you.

03:47:04.800 I mean, you could say the same thing about blood.

03:47:06.420 Okay.

03:47:06.780 So just to make sure that this is correct.

03:47:08.480 Then would you do bone marrow?

03:47:09.320 If I said I'm going to take off 10 years of your life, I'm not killing you.

03:47:12.220 No, you're not directly killing me.

03:47:14.980 Oh, okay.

03:47:15.580 You are limiting my life expectancy.

03:47:17.160 Sure.

03:47:17.720 So if I took your life down to tomorrow, I'm not killing you.

03:47:22.860 Um, if you took my life down to tomorrow, what are you doing?

03:47:26.360 Or 10 minutes.

03:47:29.200 That's not killing you.

03:47:30.900 If I could just like.

03:47:32.200 Again, again.

03:47:33.300 So if we're talking about like direct cause, obviously things have chain link reactions.

03:47:38.380 So are you just saying like you do anything, you're responsible for

03:47:42.000 any link in the chain or are we talking about what.

03:47:45.220 I'm saying that your duties to your children need to comport with reason.

03:47:48.100 And so I think that you can make at least a strong enough case.

03:47:51.280 If there's an alternative food source, I don't think.

03:47:53.280 Hang on.

03:47:53.560 Hang on.

03:47:53.780 I think that you could make a strong enough case that if no other blood was present,

03:47:57.560 uh, to give from donors, that a parent had a duty and obligation to give their blood.

03:48:03.340 I could say.

03:48:03.780 To a child.

03:48:04.140 Hang on.

03:48:04.760 To a child.

03:48:05.700 And that would comport with reason just fine.

03:48:07.800 Whereas it could, it may not comport to reason to say that this could have dire effects on

03:48:13.580 your health, giving them a kidney that might, that's a whole different situation.

03:48:19.040 I mean, I, I don't think it is because you, you would even say like, um, pregnancy can come

03:48:24.860 with severe health complications that can, can reduce your life expectancy.

03:48:29.440 Yeah.

03:48:29.840 Sure.

03:48:30.340 So then I don't have to do that.

03:48:32.060 No, no.

03:48:32.820 You still have to do that.

03:48:33.980 Yeah.

03:48:34.080 And then that's inconsistent.

03:48:35.560 What's the inconsistency?

03:48:36.640 You just said, I don't have to give the kidney because that comes with health complications.

03:48:39.400 Because no, it's not because it comes with health complications.

03:48:43.280 It's because this particular complication demonstrated to always shorten life.

03:48:47.140 Pregnancy is not.

03:48:48.460 In fact, pregnancy has been demonstrated to elongate life.

03:48:51.620 If there's one instance where someone gives a kidney and it doesn't demonstrate a shorter

03:48:55.860 life expectancy, then it's okay.

03:48:57.660 How could you demonstrate that?

03:48:59.500 I don't know.

03:48:59.900 How are you demonstrating that?

03:49:00.920 It always does.

03:49:01.880 Yeah.

03:49:02.240 The only way that we're demonstrating that.

03:49:04.880 Aren't these just typical outcomes?

03:49:06.660 Well, we can just compare people who give kidneys to people who don't give kidneys and

03:49:10.140 then you can just correlate the lifespan.

03:49:11.980 Simple.

03:49:13.120 But that doesn't mean always.

03:49:15.100 Yeah.

03:49:15.320 It's almost always the case.

03:49:17.100 But it doesn't mean always.

03:49:18.420 There could be some exception just like in pregnancy.

03:49:20.620 So the same thing could apply with a kidney.

03:49:23.040 Here's the thing though.

03:49:23.580 If there's a single exception to something, that doesn't mean we wouldn't legislate based

03:49:27.140 on the general rule.

03:49:28.280 But then your standard isn't.

03:49:29.160 Because you have an exception biologically to anything.

03:49:30.940 Because your standard isn't consistent then.

03:49:32.680 The standard's still consistent.

03:49:33.700 I think if you and I are going to establish what a parental obligation is or responsibility,

03:49:39.620 it's just going to be arbitrary.

03:49:41.980 Yeah, but okay.

03:49:42.740 To what severe degree does a parent need to experience in order for that not to be a duty?

03:49:48.600 If you make the case of arbitration, then you can say everything's arbitrary.

03:49:51.640 The age of consent's arbitrary, right?

03:49:53.680 There are a lot of things that are.

03:49:55.040 Is the age of consent arbitrary?

03:49:56.400 What do you mean?

03:49:57.220 Is the age of consent?

03:49:58.280 I don't want to pivot.

03:49:59.000 Can you answer my question?

03:50:00.360 No, I've been very...

03:50:00.920 I'm checking you for your consistency on arbitrariness.

03:50:03.360 No, I'm checking you for being your consistency.

03:50:05.000 And I'm happy to answer, but when you say...

03:50:06.600 Why do I have to go first?

03:50:07.740 When you say a thing is...

03:50:08.880 Because we're talking about what's arbitrary.

03:50:11.060 So if you say a thing is arbitrary...

03:50:12.100 Yes, this is an arbitrary scale.

03:50:13.060 Almost everything is arbitrary.

03:50:15.080 We already agreed that essentially establishing when consciousness occurred is arbitrary.

03:50:19.300 Yeah, but I'm talking now...

03:50:20.300 Yes.

03:50:20.460 I'm saying, is the age of consent arbitrary?

03:50:23.120 In terms of what?

03:50:24.540 In terms of there's no...

03:50:25.940 If the age of consent is 16, no, that's not arbitrary.

03:50:29.140 It's obviously 16.

03:50:30.000 How did you come up with it being 16?

03:50:33.460 I mean, that would depend on the reasoning.

03:50:36.140 So it's arbitrary.

03:50:39.040 In some cases, sure.

03:50:40.600 But if it is the case, and I grant to you, that, hey, no, it's not arbitrary because

03:50:45.360 you're 16, then no, it's not arbitrary that you don't have to give a kidney, but you do

03:50:48.340 have to give blood.

03:50:49.460 That's not arbitrary now.

03:50:50.740 It is.

03:50:51.160 How are you, like, selecting at what degree the parent has to experience in order for that...

03:50:57.500 How are you selecting the age of consent?

03:51:00.200 I think we can obviously have markers when it comes to the age of consent.

03:51:03.460 So we can have delineations between harm factors where we can comport them to reason

03:51:08.000 when it comes to giving blood or kidneys.

03:51:09.760 Simple.

03:51:10.600 Do you think parents have an obligation to, like, experience torture in order to keep

03:51:16.820 their children alive?

03:51:18.680 I think that you could make the case that a father or mother should have some duty towards

03:51:24.080 trying to experience...

03:51:25.120 Or not trying to experience it, but that they may need to suffer in order to keep their kid

03:51:31.280 alive.

03:51:31.620 Yeah.

03:51:32.780 I don't disagree, but I'm asking, is that, like, a legal expectation that we will torture

03:51:37.920 you to keep your child alive?

03:51:39.420 No, that's a moral expectation.

03:51:40.600 So, obviously, but you do want to have laws that would require parents to be tortured

03:51:50.980 to keep their children alive.

03:51:52.480 What's the torture?

03:51:53.840 I mean, forced pregnancy is torture.

03:51:56.080 How is that torture?

03:51:57.060 Well, I mean, it's classified as torture by the U.N.

03:52:02.200 I would say it would just meet a specific threshold of suffering.

03:52:07.160 Okay, well, then, I would say that it's torturing the baby.

03:52:12.740 How?

03:52:13.500 So, like, because you're going to kill it.

03:52:15.420 I would say that that's a form of torture.

03:52:17.540 Or I could even say it's mental torture on the mother to terminate the pregnancy.

03:52:21.360 You could have long-term side effects on her mental health.

03:52:24.160 That only depends on how wanted the pregnancy is.

03:52:26.920 And, again, if you don't, like, have the capacity to experience, I don't know how you can experience

03:52:30.680 torture.

03:52:30.900 Yeah, but not only that, you know what's really weird about this argument specifically is,

03:52:34.600 like, do you have an obligation to be tortured on behalf of your children, right?

03:52:40.860 It's, like, well, let's look at this.

03:52:42.740 Let's examine it.

03:52:44.000 On the one side, I do want to say, yes, I think you do.

03:52:47.220 And I think you even agree that to some degree we do.

03:52:50.180 But for some reason, you're, like, unless it's inside my stomach, which is really weird.

03:52:54.640 What do you mean?

03:52:55.480 Well, you just got done saying that you think to some degree parents need to be able to

03:53:00.380 experience suffering for their children.

03:53:02.140 That they will experience suffering.

03:53:04.020 Do I think they should be forced to?

03:53:05.640 No.

03:53:06.280 Never?

03:53:06.540 I can't think of an instance.

03:53:11.420 Like, oh, I don't know.

03:53:13.760 Your kid, for instance, has autism or something like this, right?

03:53:18.600 You still need to take care of that kid, give him special treatment, things like that.

03:53:21.740 That definitely causes suffering.

03:53:25.140 Not to the same degree that I would say violations towards your bodily autonomy would be.

03:53:30.440 That is violations towards your bodily autonomy.

03:53:32.040 And, again, I wouldn't force, one second, and I disagree with that.

03:53:34.960 I wouldn't force, if a parent can't meet the needs of the child, then I think that would

03:53:44.040 be a societal responsibility.

03:53:45.640 So then you just shift the burden.

03:53:48.100 Yeah.

03:53:48.360 I don't want to force parents to be parents.

03:53:50.920 I want that to be done willingly because that's the best outcome for the child.

03:53:54.800 So if nobody gave blood, let's say, hypothetically, just nobody gave blood, right?

03:53:59.460 Do you think that the parent has the obligation to give their kid blood if they're in an accident?

03:54:02.300 I think they should, but I don't think that it should be legally enforced.

03:54:06.200 So then the kid just dies if the parent doesn't want to?

03:54:08.900 Yeah.

03:54:09.360 Yeah.

03:54:10.760 I don't know.

03:54:11.340 That sounds like a way shittier society to me.

03:54:13.360 I don't know.

03:54:14.100 Do you think, like, if the child is starving, that, like, the parent has an obligation to

03:54:18.840 cut off parts of their skin to feed their child?

03:54:21.060 I think that if you were crash-landed somewhere, like on a desert island or something like that,

03:54:25.540 there's a moral obligation to do so, yeah.

03:54:28.380 We're talking legal.

03:54:29.960 Yeah.

03:54:30.480 I can't make a legal prescription there for something that very, very clearly...

03:54:35.380 Would be, like, outside of society?

03:54:37.100 So you think that parents should be...

03:54:41.060 They should...

03:54:41.740 They should what?

03:54:42.980 Cut off parts of their skin to feed their child.

03:54:44.960 If they absolutely had no other way to feed that child, I think they have a moral obligation to do so.

03:54:50.380 Okay.

03:54:51.300 Moral.

03:54:52.200 You agree, right?

03:54:53.140 Um, I, again, I think it has to...

03:54:57.340 Would you cut off pieces of your skin to feed your child in a plane wreck?

03:55:00.600 Yes.

03:55:01.020 Yeah, okay, then.

03:55:01.740 That's the end of that.

03:55:02.480 I mean, that's what I would do.

03:55:04.020 Yeah, because you think it's moral.

03:55:05.600 But again, that's my will.

03:55:06.400 Because you think it's moral.

03:55:08.440 It's, like, the most moral thing you could do, right?

03:55:10.500 Um, sure.

03:55:12.720 But again, I don't think that my, like, moral desires would necessarily be imposed on other people.

03:55:22.780 Like, I've had an abortion as well.

03:55:26.360 So you wouldn't say that a woman who wouldn't do that for their kid was a bad person?

03:55:31.480 I would say someone who does that is a good person for sure.

03:55:34.320 So somebody who didn't do that was probably not a good person?

03:55:36.720 I don't think if you're not a good person, it doesn't mean you're a bad person.

03:55:40.840 Yeah, that's not what I asked, though.

03:55:43.160 Are they a bad person?

03:55:44.280 No.

03:55:44.700 No.

03:55:45.180 Okay.

03:55:45.780 Do you think, like, if you are walking down a path and you see someone drowning, you have an obligation to save them?

03:55:52.520 Yeah.

03:55:54.620 Do you think that you should be legally criminalized?

03:55:57.320 I think in some cases you are legally criminalized.

03:56:00.460 If, if, so what if you can't swim?

03:56:02.580 Well, there's states, for instance, where there's a law where there's a felony in progress or a misdemeanor in progress and you don't report, you go to jail.

03:56:09.080 Sure.

03:56:09.440 I can, you know, I think that's very, but obviously it's, it's not though.

03:56:14.600 Cause obviously it comes down to like, what, um, is reasonable expectation.

03:56:19.600 Is it a reasonable expectation that you make a phone call?

03:56:22.020 Sure.

03:56:22.420 Yeah.

03:56:22.580 So I think it's a reasonable expectation that you jump in freezing water when you can't, when you can't swim?

03:56:26.740 Now you're loading it though.

03:56:27.960 Now you're loading it.

03:56:28.580 Okay, fine.

03:56:29.420 Warm bath water when you can't swim?

03:56:30.620 So let me ask you this.

03:56:31.580 Let's reverse it.

03:56:32.760 Okay.

03:56:33.120 Now the kid is drowning in a puddle.

03:56:37.120 Should, should you face some sort of criminal charges if you don't go over and just roll them out of the puddle?

03:56:42.280 Yeah.

03:56:42.780 Again, I think that.

03:56:43.820 Then what are you even talking about?

03:56:46.280 What do you mean?

03:56:46.900 So yes, I think that there, you can have moral obligations with thresholds.

03:56:51.060 Sure.

03:56:51.300 I don't disagree.

03:56:52.180 Yeah.

03:56:52.300 But that was my point with kidneys and blood.

03:56:54.520 You can have moral obligations with thresholds.

03:56:56.400 Yes.

03:56:56.520 I think you should be able to force people to give blood and you should be, then what's the delineation?

03:57:01.960 I don't know how pregnancy.

03:57:02.760 You're engaging in a fallacy right now.

03:57:04.380 So what's the fallacy?

03:57:05.200 Yeah.

03:57:05.420 So the, I don't remember what this one's called, but the specific fallacy that you're engaging in is because you say this thing, you can't, you don't have a delineating point between thing A and thing B.

03:57:16.300 That means there is not one.

03:57:17.820 There is.

03:57:18.500 You don't need to be able to point out what it is.

03:57:20.340 You can clearly see that a kidney is different than blood.

03:57:22.920 We both know this.

03:57:23.800 The procedure for a kidney is different than blood.

03:57:25.660 Sure.

03:57:25.960 I think it's totally acceptable that even if you can't identify whatever the exact threshold is, maybe doctors can't, I don't know, um, that I can't say that there's not a moral odds.

03:57:36.120 But then wouldn't we just be, then wouldn't the threshold just be arbitrary?

03:57:38.460 Well, wouldn't that be the case with the puddle in the ocean?

03:57:41.860 I, I agree.

03:57:42.920 Yeah.

03:57:43.200 But then why would you save the one in the puddle, but not the ocean?

03:57:45.500 Because again, of, of threshold.

03:57:47.180 Well, then what's the problem here?

03:57:48.460 We're both saying the same thing.

03:57:49.520 Yeah.

03:57:50.020 So do you think that, um, giving kidney is less invasive than pregnancy?

03:57:54.460 Pregnancy?

03:57:56.720 Yes.

03:57:58.000 Yeah.

03:57:58.280 Oh, wait.

03:57:58.820 Giving the kidney is less invasive?

03:58:00.160 Yes.

03:58:00.400 No, I think it's more invasive.

03:58:01.440 Really?

03:58:01.900 Yeah.

03:58:02.600 Than pregnancy?

03:58:03.560 Yeah.

03:58:03.760 You stuck, stuck with that your whole life.

03:58:05.340 The pregnancy you have for a few months, nine months.

03:58:08.000 Well, I mean, obviously depending on the health outcomes of your pregnancy, you can have health issues for the rest of your life.

03:58:12.540 Yes.

03:58:13.000 That's true.

03:58:13.440 And I would say the risk is greater.

03:58:14.400 No, it's not greater for most women than giving the kidney would be.

03:58:18.120 No, it's not.

03:58:18.840 I disagree.

03:58:19.760 Based on what?

03:58:21.020 Based on health outcomes.

03:58:22.640 Okay.

03:58:22.880 Well, how many, okay.

03:58:24.760 Based, you think that people who give a kidney, right, are more or less likely to die than the average woman who has a pregnancy?

03:58:31.560 Really?

03:58:32.120 I mean, we're not even talking about death.

03:58:33.560 We can talk about health outcomes.

03:58:34.880 Yeah.

03:58:35.020 Health outcomes are way worse for people who have one kidney.

03:58:37.280 You can't drink ever again.

03:58:38.620 You have to be super careful.

03:58:40.100 You have to take enzymes.

03:58:41.160 You have to take various things that make sure that the kidney is compatible with your body.

03:58:46.140 And you have to take that stuff for years.

03:58:47.800 Like, no, the health outcomes for people who give a kidney, way worse than the average woman who's pregnant, for sure.

03:58:54.220 Like, I wouldn't even put them in the same universe.

03:58:56.220 I think the complexities of pregnancy, it's not a fair assessment to say.

03:59:00.380 Because obviously every pregnancy is going to be different.

03:59:03.420 And then obviously, like, the health of the mother is going to be different as well, which can add core morbidities.

03:59:10.180 Yeah, but that's the same thing with kidneys.

03:59:13.880 Sure.

03:59:14.240 Same thing.

03:59:14.980 But except that kidneys, again, yeah, you're going to have to take...

03:59:19.020 I just think the line would be drawn in terms of parental obligation is you don't have to use your body as life support.

03:59:26.340 Yeah, I get it.

03:59:27.540 I'm willing...

03:59:28.240 And then I would say...

03:59:28.740 I'm actually willing to move to the next topic for the sake of time only because of this.

03:59:32.260 Okay.

03:59:33.180 I was willing to engage in this, right?

03:59:35.460 But your position basically was just a bait position.

03:59:38.360 It's not a bait position.

03:59:39.160 It is a bait position.

03:59:40.220 Okay, fine.

03:59:40.620 Well, you believe it's murder to kill a person seven months.

03:59:44.580 Yes.

03:59:44.940 You just don't care about enforcing that.

03:59:47.360 Well, I just don't see the necessity in it.

03:59:50.840 Of enforcing it.

03:59:51.880 No, the necessity of a lethal termination.

03:59:55.060 Yeah, no, but if a doctor did lethally terminate a fetus at seven months and there is no law governing it, he didn't do anything wrong, right?

04:00:00.820 But I think he did something wrong, but I still would be opposed against the law because it would cause more harm.

04:00:07.440 So you're just opposed to murdering babies?

04:00:10.380 Like that's the...

04:00:11.820 You're opposed to legislating against murdering babies?

04:00:14.120 I mean, not within...

04:00:19.440 I'm opposed to legislation that would cause a lot more death of pregnant people.

04:00:27.540 Yeah, right.

04:00:28.000 So, but you're opposed to legislation of murdering babies.

04:00:31.180 So my position would be that it's essentially a harm reduction.

04:00:35.880 Got it.

04:00:36.960 So I just want to make sure, though, you don't want any legislation in regards to doctors who kill babies?

04:00:43.460 Correct.

04:00:44.200 Okay.

04:00:44.700 Correct.

04:00:46.120 You wanted to move it on?

04:00:47.820 Yeah.

04:00:48.460 By the way, we did hit our 50 of 50 goal.

04:00:52.740 Really?

04:00:53.580 Yep.

04:00:54.200 So we have...

04:00:56.080 There's like 10,000 people watching right now.

04:00:57.860 Oh, wow.

04:00:58.340 We have pineapple pizza on the way.

04:01:00.700 We will do a roast session a little bit later.

04:01:02.600 We have three chats that are going to come through.

04:01:04.300 Here we have Ogle, who writes...

04:01:06.300 Oh, it comes in as a TTS thing.

04:01:08.520 Ogle, I'm just called Glue.net donated $200.

04:01:11.460 Reminder, there is virtue in conceding points when they're made, even if it goes against your ism.

04:01:17.720 Sometimes.

04:01:19.440 Ogle, really appreciate the TTS message.

04:01:22.280 Thank you.

04:01:23.020 We have Not Sure coming in here in just a moment.

04:01:27.740 He says,

04:01:29.220 OMG, is that the guy who played Beef Supreme?

04:01:33.440 Tell me.

04:01:34.300 Okay, thank you.

04:01:35.440 Oh, wait, it hasn't even popped up yet.

04:01:37.040 There it is.

04:01:37.880 Not Sure.

04:01:38.520 Thank you.

04:01:39.040 Not Sure.

04:01:40.440 Are you Beef Supreme or is he talking to me?

04:01:42.920 I don't know.

04:01:44.120 Who are you talking to?

04:01:45.820 But that's some idiocracy right there that he's referencing.

04:01:48.980 And we have...

04:01:50.180 He sends a follow-up message.

04:01:53.000 It's going to take just a moment to come in.

04:01:55.760 We have Not Sure again.

04:01:57.380 Not Sure donated $199.99.

04:02:02.840 Bro, are you Beef Supreme?

04:02:05.240 All women should bow to your greatness.

04:02:08.000 You should have received 10 Emmys.

04:02:09.800 That's the movie reference again.

04:02:12.860 Of Idiocracy.

04:02:13.980 Okay.

04:02:14.280 Well, thank you.

04:02:14.880 Not Sure, guys.

04:02:15.680 If you want, we're doing $100 reads.

04:02:19.480 Also, if you want 100% of your contribution to go to the show, you can do that.

04:02:23.080 Whatever pod, Venmo, and Cash App.

04:02:24.460 Guys, like the video.

04:02:25.640 Also, if you're watching on Twitch, that's twitch.tv slash whatever.

04:02:29.300 Can we get that pulled up?

04:02:30.060 All right, guys.

04:02:33.700 Twitch.tv slash whatever.

04:02:35.200 Drop us a follow and a Prime sub.

04:02:37.820 If you have one, if you have Amazon Prime, you can link it to your Twitch.

04:02:40.520 It's a quick, free, easy way to support the show every single month.

04:02:43.580 Guys, we're almost at 100,000 followers.

04:02:47.060 I don't know if we're going to be able to do it tonight's show.

04:02:48.940 But if you guys can, drop us a follow.

04:02:50.780 Get us to 100,000 followers over there on Twitch.

04:02:54.280 We're 1,000 away.

04:02:56.640 Guys, like the video if you want.

04:02:58.240 And like I said, once the pizza comes, we'll drop the – we'll do a TTS portion.

04:03:05.860 And then if there's anything else to get to for the debate, we'll do that.

04:03:09.860 Andrew, what did you want to get into for –

04:03:11.760 What are the other topics?

04:03:13.440 Well, there's gender wage gap.

04:03:14.920 But it sounded like there were specifically other things that –

04:03:17.620 Yeah, what are the other ones?

04:03:18.800 Sure.

04:03:19.820 There's gender wage gap and anti-purity culture.

04:03:25.720 Yeah, we'll probably actually agree on the anti-purity.

04:03:28.240 Purity culture.

04:03:29.480 Really?

04:03:30.320 Yeah.

04:03:30.860 You're anti-purity culture?

04:03:32.280 Well, it depends on how it's defined.

04:03:34.700 How would you define it?

04:03:38.020 Prescribing virginity and less sexual –

04:03:43.300 essentially sexual encounters before marriage as pure and virtuous.

04:03:49.080 Oh, well then, no, we would disagree.

04:03:51.320 How do you define it?

04:03:52.440 So for me, purity culture would be like absurd things like you have to wear a burqa, right?

04:03:59.460 Yeah, I mean, definitely prescriptions towards purity.

04:04:02.000 I mean, but that's really circular.

04:04:03.960 Yeah, well, it's a circular position unless you have specificity, right?

04:04:08.440 So we'll start with this idea of why do you think prescribing virginity is bad?

04:04:14.420 Well, I don't think virginity is real.

04:04:16.480 Well, what do you mean?

04:04:21.800 I just don't think it's something that you can quantify.

04:04:26.400 Yeah, no dicks in your vagina.

04:04:28.540 It's quantified as virgin.

04:04:29.500 So if I just have sex with women, I'm a virgin?

04:04:35.800 No.

04:04:36.840 Why?

04:04:38.120 There's no dicks?

04:04:39.220 Yeah, yeah.

04:04:39.780 So you would still be a virgin to a man, right?

04:04:44.500 At least from that perspective.

04:04:46.520 From my perspective, I would –

04:04:48.180 You define virginity as no dicks.

04:04:49.500 Yeah, yeah.

04:04:49.900 I was being facetious, obviously.

04:04:52.320 So I'm a virgin and not a virgin.

04:04:54.340 Yeah, if you have sex with somebody, you're not a virgin.

04:04:57.540 Well, what is sex?

04:04:58.340 It would be the art of intercourse.

04:05:01.540 I don't think women can really have sex with each other.

04:05:04.260 It's just mutual masturbation.

04:05:07.080 That's it.

04:05:07.900 So are we just defining sex as penetration?

04:05:10.320 Yeah.

04:05:11.560 Yeah, so I just think –

04:05:12.680 Or blowjobs.

04:05:13.340 I think blowjobs do.

04:05:14.340 Really?

04:05:14.660 Blowjobs count?

04:05:15.380 Mm-hmm.

04:05:16.800 As a form of like sodomite sex?

04:05:19.180 So if I give a blowjob, am I a virgin?

04:05:23.220 Well, your mouth's not a virgin.

04:05:24.880 I'm just –

04:05:25.820 I mean, this seems really inconsistent.

04:05:27.460 I'm just –

04:05:29.140 Yeah, so when we're talking about virginity, I don't think that there's anything that's

04:05:34.120 really confusing.

04:05:34.940 So women can masturbate each other.

04:05:37.060 Men can masturbate with women, right?

04:05:39.880 But we're talking about virginity itself.

04:05:41.900 And by the way, all of those things are bad, right?

04:05:44.560 All of them are bad.

04:05:45.720 So if you gave –

04:05:45.920 I agree with that.

04:05:46.680 Yeah, okay.

04:05:47.340 Well, so I'm just talking about purity culture would say all those things are bad.

04:05:50.680 Uh-huh.

04:05:50.960 Right?

04:05:51.520 So when you – but when you're talking about virginity, it's like, yeah, it's pretty

04:05:53.980 simple.

04:05:54.700 Like no dick – no D in the V and you maintain the virginity.

04:05:58.640 Um, is this like a medical or like a body standard?

04:06:05.080 No.

04:06:05.300 Or so this is just an experience thing?

04:06:08.340 Yeah.

04:06:08.620 How far does it have to go in?

04:06:11.120 I mean, if it goes in at all.

04:06:14.140 So just the tip.

04:06:15.520 Yeah.

04:06:15.820 You're not a virgin anymore.

04:06:17.580 So the reason that I think this is –

04:06:18.860 It gets touched?

04:06:20.080 It gets touched.

04:06:20.880 It's over.

04:06:21.840 So my vulva touches –

04:06:23.480 No, no, I'm talking –

04:06:24.360 The vulva touches my –

04:06:25.520 It's penetrative sex, yes.

04:06:26.780 It's penetrative sex.

04:06:27.560 So the reason that I think that this concept is just not like a functional definition is

04:06:34.120 because sexual experience is very complex.

04:06:36.520 Sure.

04:06:37.220 And I think it's absolutely silly to say that me having just sex with women and being

04:06:43.320 a lesbian somehow puts me in a condition that's any less –

04:06:47.160 Why is that silly?

04:06:48.020 That's any less than if I were to have sex with a man.

04:06:50.180 Why is that silly?

04:06:52.160 Because, like, what is the delineation here?

04:06:54.860 That you're masturbating.

04:06:55.740 I mean, if she –

04:06:56.760 If they, like, have vaginal –

04:06:57.660 Is there a penis involved?

04:06:59.940 I mean, if there's a dildo, does that count?

04:07:02.100 Like, if then, like, I use a dildo on myself, does that count?

04:07:05.900 If she's holding it, does it count?

04:07:06.780 That would be called what?

04:07:08.300 Masturbation.

04:07:08.920 Right.

04:07:09.220 So I'm wondering, like, what are we measuring here?

04:07:12.780 We're measuring your purity when it comes to how many dicks you've had in your vagina.

04:07:18.220 Like, human dicks?

04:07:19.700 Yes.

04:07:20.200 Why?

04:07:20.580 Because that's the metric for virginity.

04:07:24.360 Yeah.

04:07:24.740 So I just think it's – obviously, again, I don't think it's a good working definition

04:07:30.180 because it reduces sexual experience down to not only a heteronormative narrative, but also that sexual experience can be done in a multitude of ways to where I would say that what meaningful difference is it that you're crossing this threshold?

04:07:51.580 That there's a male penis inside your vagina.

04:07:53.660 What does that do?

04:07:54.800 It removes your virginity.

04:07:57.280 What?

04:07:58.120 That's circular.

04:07:59.300 Like, you're not –

04:08:00.320 Wait.

04:08:01.080 Virginity is just having a penis inside you, removing your virginity.

04:08:04.020 Like, what –

04:08:04.240 Okay.

04:08:04.560 I'm sorry.

04:08:05.100 What –

04:08:05.580 Why –

04:08:05.780 Let me make sure I get this right.

04:08:07.580 Can you have sex without a person?

04:08:10.000 Uh, no.

04:08:13.020 Well, I don't know.

04:08:13.860 You can masturbate.

04:08:14.660 Well, now, wait a second.

04:08:16.520 Wait a second.

04:08:17.660 You can't have sex without another person there?

04:08:20.240 Are we counting masturbation as sex?

04:08:21.320 Well, what counts as sex with another person then?

04:08:23.620 Kissing?

04:08:24.800 Um, I would say – I mean, again, when we talk about intercourse, I think it's really

04:08:29.940 hard to have, like, these clear lines.

04:08:31.540 Kissing sex?

04:08:32.400 No.

04:08:33.080 What's not sex about it?

04:08:34.000 I would say oral, um, oral, vaginal.

04:08:37.000 What's not sex about that stuff?

04:08:38.340 This seems like you have the inconsistent – you have the inconsistent position.

04:08:41.740 Why isn't kissing sex?

04:08:44.200 Um, why isn't kissing intercourse?

04:08:48.180 Yeah.

04:08:48.300 Because I would say intercourse –

04:08:49.200 No, sex.

04:08:50.380 Well, what's the difference between sex and intercourse?

04:08:52.000 Well, intercourse, I think something enters, right?

04:08:54.620 Okay.

04:08:55.220 Yeah, so, like, if you can have lesbian sex, nothing enters, right?

04:08:59.620 Well, you can have something enter, too.

04:09:01.340 Is lesbian sex sex?

04:09:03.200 Yeah, of course.

04:09:03.660 Okay, so then there's a difference between sex and intercourse?

04:09:06.180 Sure.

04:09:06.700 Okay, so then –

04:09:07.480 I use those interchangeably, so I'm fine with that delineation.

04:09:10.140 So then why isn't kissing sex?

04:09:12.500 Um, I would say the use of, uh, essentially the inclusion of genitals would be, would be

04:09:18.800 sex.

04:09:20.500 What?

04:09:21.140 Why?

04:09:22.000 Um, because, like, you can, like, kiss your mom, and I wouldn't say that that's, like,

04:09:28.600 sex.

04:09:28.620 So if you lick a guy's balls, did you have sex with him?

04:09:31.480 Just once?

04:09:32.300 I think that's definitely a sexual experience.

04:09:34.080 Did you have sex with him, though?

04:09:36.160 Um, yes, I did.

04:09:38.600 Oh, okay.

04:09:39.140 Yes.

04:09:39.220 So licking balls is –

04:09:40.120 Licking balls is doing the deed.

04:09:42.020 That's sex?

04:09:42.480 Yep.

04:09:43.040 Okay, gotcha.

04:09:44.120 What about licking his feet?

04:09:46.020 Oh, no.

04:09:46.660 Gross.

04:09:46.760 How come that's not sex?

04:09:48.700 Um, I think that can be a sexual act, for sure.

04:09:51.240 Just like licking the balls?

04:09:52.860 Yeah.

04:09:53.940 So –

04:09:54.580 It sounds like you have an arbitrary metric, and mine's way more specific.

04:09:57.800 I think, uh, when you and I are talking about sexual experience, I think you're proving

04:10:01.040 my point, it, that sexual experience can be very variety, uh, variety and nuance.

04:10:06.360 So the idea, though, of intercourse, thing enters, right?

04:10:10.680 We're talking about virginity, right?

04:10:13.100 So if –

04:10:13.800 I think that there's men, too, inside of the kind of religious focal who would say that

04:10:18.780 if you gave a blowjob, you're not a virgin.

04:10:20.480 I'm fine with that, too.

04:10:22.020 Yeah, and I think that – and that's kind of one of the issues that I have with it

04:10:26.300 is to – you know, I think one of the most common questions that teenagers ask, like,

04:10:31.240 I've done X, am I still a virgin?

04:10:33.360 And it's because you have this notion that when you do a specific sex act, somehow you're

04:10:39.040 a different person than the person you were prior to the sex act.

04:10:43.620 Yeah, something definitely changed.

04:10:45.360 What?

04:10:45.740 You had sex.

04:10:46.460 Well, what – I'm talking about, like, character or who you are as a person because – and

04:10:53.420 this is where I think a lot of –

04:10:54.300 That's not why – but that's not why people select based on virginity.

04:10:58.760 I think this is a prescription of purity culture, is that somehow you are tainted, you are less

04:11:05.100 than, you are impure, that your character, that your value as a person has lessened because

04:11:11.460 you've had this experience.

04:11:12.640 No, I think it's just based around preference.

04:11:14.540 So I just think that the idea is very simple.

04:11:16.400 I'm saying that's what purity culture implies, that if you've had sex, you're less pure.

04:11:22.040 Yeah.

04:11:22.960 I think that this is based around the preference that men have of women having less sexual partners.

04:11:28.840 I think it's not an innate preference.

04:11:31.460 It's a societal one.

04:11:33.260 No, it's innate, and I'll demonstrate why it's innate.

04:11:36.860 Do you want me – I can demonstrate it.

04:11:38.360 So do you agree with me that paternity tests were not always a thing?

04:11:43.100 In fact, they were very recent.

04:11:44.720 Yes.

04:11:45.080 So how to minisure paternity before there was paternity tests?

04:11:48.860 Well, someone not being polyamorous.

04:11:51.920 So only having sex with them?

04:11:53.880 Well, you can not be a virgin and still be monogamous.

04:11:57.840 Sure.

04:11:58.240 But one way that you can assure that your offspring is going to be yours is to only be the only

04:12:03.360 person that woman's ever slept with.

04:12:04.880 How do you determine that?

04:12:05.980 Well, they used to have hymen checkers, things like this.

04:12:08.260 That's not an effective determinant of virginity.

04:12:11.080 You can lose your hymen writing your back.

04:12:13.600 That's true.

04:12:14.600 That's true.

04:12:15.140 But it is a pretty effective metric.

04:12:18.380 I –

04:12:18.820 No.

04:12:19.380 Considering technology – yes, considering technology, it is.

04:12:21.800 No, it's not.

04:12:22.560 Yes, it is.

04:12:23.220 Hymen tests are very ineffective.

04:12:25.980 When there's no other test, what other test is there?

04:12:29.680 That's my point.

04:12:30.280 There is no test.

04:12:30.780 Yeah, right.

04:12:31.300 So then –

04:12:31.920 Yeah, so hymen tests are not a good litmus.

04:12:34.000 Calm down.

04:12:34.860 I'm not –

04:12:35.280 If it is the case, if it is the case, though, that that's what's there, right, and the

04:12:40.020 only way that you can determine whether or not a child is yours if the woman is sleeping

04:12:43.560 with you, of course, it would follow that you would be revolted by women who slept with

04:12:48.700 a lot of men.

04:12:49.420 But you can't determine that if the hymen is there or not.

04:12:52.780 Why would that – listen, first of all, yes, that's a good indication they're not

04:12:57.160 a virgin if the hymen's not there.

04:13:00.360 No.

04:13:00.760 Like I said, you can lose your – your hymen can break, like horseback riding.

04:13:06.420 Sure, but it's not common.

04:13:07.460 Falling on a fence.

04:13:08.580 Not common.

04:13:08.800 It is common.

04:13:09.320 No, it's much more common that the hymen breaks how?

04:13:11.460 How do most hymens get broke?

04:13:13.840 I have no idea.

04:13:14.740 With a dick.

04:13:15.480 How do you measure that?

04:13:17.060 Are you –

04:13:17.520 We could look at – do you want me to look it up right now?

04:13:19.040 Sure, yeah, I would love something.

04:13:27.940 Just put, most common way hymen breaks.

04:13:30.100 What did you get?

04:13:44.100 The most common way is sexual intercourse, followed by tampons.

04:13:49.260 Okay.

04:13:50.100 Which makes sense to me.

04:13:52.040 How – tell me the methodology.

04:13:54.740 Just people reporting.

04:13:55.900 What has been done shows there's no scientific way to tell from the inspection of your hymen

04:13:59.060 whether you did or did not have intercourse.

04:14:00.960 That was not what was said.

04:14:02.320 What was said is that the most common way a hymen gets broken is with a penis.

04:14:07.060 Again, it says that based on a lot of research, shows there's no scientific way to tell from

04:14:14.040 the inspection of your hymen whether you did or did not have intercourse.

04:14:17.960 And that is your position, right?

04:14:20.040 No.

04:14:20.220 Okay, what's the most common way for a hymen to break?

04:14:23.720 Again, are you saying that the hymen is a scientific way to tell if you've had sex or not?

04:14:30.340 Only if there's no other scientific way available.

04:14:32.700 It would be the only scientific way.

04:14:34.160 It's not a scientific, like, method.

04:14:39.180 And there is no other way.

04:14:40.440 That's my whole point.

04:14:41.100 Well, yes, it is a scientific method, whether you think it's good or not.

04:14:45.160 It's not a scientific method.

04:14:47.000 Yes, it would be a scientific method.

04:14:48.960 It's not.

04:14:49.140 Okay, so tell me this.

04:14:50.220 How would you make a determination, right, if the only thing available to you was to

04:14:55.080 check a hymen, that was the only thing that was available to you?

04:14:58.560 Again, it's not a good criteria.

04:15:00.480 If you were a man, right, that's the only way to check for chastity or virginity, and

04:15:05.520 women were told and trained not to break their hymen to say, hey.

04:15:09.260 How are you trained not to break your hymen?

04:15:10.420 By doing activities that would break them.

04:15:13.140 That is just absolutely ridiculous.

04:15:14.980 But happened.

04:15:16.600 I don't care if it happened.

04:15:18.480 Yeah, that's nice.

04:15:19.960 It's not an effective way to determine if someone has had intercourse or not.

04:15:23.720 I think that if there's no other way around, it's the most effective way.

04:15:27.400 It doesn't mean it's effective, though.

04:15:29.140 It's just the most effective, which is my statement.

04:15:31.300 It doesn't mean it's effective, though.

04:15:32.140 Just the most effective, though.

04:15:33.480 We agree.

04:15:34.700 Yeah, so great.

04:15:35.520 So then it's the most effective way.

04:15:37.300 It's not effective.

04:15:37.600 So if it's the most effective way, but when there's no other way, and...

04:15:43.420 The reason that it's not effective is because there is no medical condition of virginity.

04:15:50.800 Nobody's saying it's a medical condition.

04:15:52.760 Or physical condition, even.

04:15:54.240 Well, I would argue that...

04:15:57.760 There's no physical assessment that you can do to determine if someone is virgin or not.

04:16:00.880 Yeah, I think virginity is conceptual.

04:16:03.520 Sure.

04:16:04.640 Yeah.

04:16:05.320 But I think that you can still have signs for a concept.

04:16:08.360 Like, I think...

04:16:09.560 Again, it's not effective.

04:16:11.700 Like, obviously, the hymen can be absent and someone be a virgin, and the hymen can be present and have intercourse.

04:16:16.480 I'm not disputing that.

04:16:17.400 Okay, great.

04:16:17.880 Yeah, but that was never in dispute.

04:16:20.160 What's in dispute is how you could tell about...

04:16:23.120 Hang on, hang on.

04:16:23.840 Sure.

04:16:24.060 About why it is that a man would want to select for women who have low body counts, and the reason they'd want to select for them is because...

04:16:29.900 Well, now we're going into body count, which is different than virginity.

04:16:32.680 No, it's not.

04:16:33.360 Yes, it absolutely is.

04:16:34.520 No, you can't have bodies and be a virgin.

04:16:37.920 Well, body count is different than virginity.

04:16:41.700 Like, count is just a running count where, like, virginity is technically zero.

04:16:44.880 But there's a way to determine zero count would be a virgin.

04:16:47.880 That's what we mean by virginity, zero body count.

04:16:50.300 And again, like, this is where I just think it's ineffective because sexual experience is an important thing when analyzing.

04:16:56.780 I don't...

04:16:57.700 When it comes to men wanting to...

04:16:59.560 Okay, let me just figure this out real quick.

04:17:01.200 One second.

04:17:02.140 Go ahead.

04:17:02.460 When it comes to men having this preference of guaranteed paternity, I don't think that this is an innate preference.

04:17:12.300 Why?

04:17:12.700 Uh, because of, essentially, how different mating strategies worked in different tribes.

04:17:19.960 Okay.

04:17:20.500 How did they work?

04:17:21.980 Uh, there were poly...

04:17:24.680 Obviously, polyamorous.

04:17:26.000 I mean, even in Rome, in more modern-day patriarchy, like, they had, like, wedding orgies.

04:17:32.900 Mm-hmm.

04:17:33.480 Um, yeah.

04:17:34.360 Yeah.

04:17:34.780 So, I think it was just in terms of, uh, making sure that, you know, children were born so that the, um, you know, community could survive.

04:17:46.040 Well, let's, let's test this out.

04:17:47.640 I just want to ask you a quick question.

04:17:49.040 Okay.

04:17:49.240 If your son came to you and said, Mom, I have this woman who's only been with one man, and I have another woman who's been with 250 men, okay?

04:18:01.400 I'm trying to figure out which one I want to be with for the long term, right?

04:18:05.840 Which one would you tell him you would think would be the most monogamous?

04:18:12.200 Um, I don't think you can determine monogamy based on body count.

04:18:16.280 Well, that's not what I asked you.

04:18:17.700 Um, I, I wouldn't have an answer.

04:18:19.600 So, if, if one had only, now, what if one had never slept with anybody, and the other one had slept with 200?

04:18:25.420 Which one?

04:18:26.260 I wouldn't have an answer.

04:18:27.540 You wouldn't have an answer?

04:18:28.360 Yeah, I mean, um, even, even if I look at my own relationship, um, whatever you consider to be a body count, mine was higher than my ex's, and he's the one that cheated.

04:18:37.060 So, I don't think that that determines your faithfulness, your monogamy.

04:18:43.560 I think that there are women who've had sex with hundreds of men who could be monogamous to one man, whereas a virgin could cheat on him.

04:18:50.880 Sure, okay.

04:18:51.340 I totally, I totally concede that there's outliers to everything.

04:18:54.580 We're just talking about likelihoods.

04:18:56.740 I don't think that, I mean, I could even argue that because you have less sexual experience, you would be more inclined to stray.

04:19:04.460 If you become bored, the relationship becomes stale.

04:19:06.420 So, I don't think that that is the ultimate reason why people cheat.

04:19:11.200 Do you trust Pew Research?

04:19:13.620 Um, I think Pew Research is a good source, yeah.

04:19:15.580 So, according to Pew Research, women who get married as virgins are far less likely to cheat than women who don't.

04:19:20.940 Yeah, I think there's a correlation versus...

04:19:22.700 Up to, well, actually, it gets higher by everyone.

04:19:26.420 The metric gets higher for one.

04:19:27.740 Is this the same study when it comes to, um, I'm sorry, is this cheating?

04:19:33.420 It's not a study.

04:19:34.920 These aren't studies.

04:19:36.220 So, were these surveys?

04:19:37.320 Yeah.

04:19:37.880 And so, I'm sorry, explain.

04:19:41.680 Yeah, yeah, so it's just that the correlate there seems to be that virgins cheat way less.

04:19:48.220 Right, I think obviously we can, and I don't, um, like, obviously correlation is not causation.

04:19:54.680 And so when we talk about causation...

04:19:56.400 But all causation are correlates.

04:19:58.520 Sure, but again, you would need to establish, uh, causation.

04:20:01.740 I could say that women who have, like, what you would deem lower body counts, um, would

04:20:06.920 more than likely be religious.

04:20:08.760 I won't even dispute this.

04:20:10.020 So, if we, if you and I agree that correlation is not causation, but all causation is correlation,

04:20:15.460 then we're just looking for strong correlates.

04:20:17.680 And that's what we're going to make a determination.

04:20:19.860 You would need to determine cause.

04:20:21.180 Well, but cause is still going to be...

04:20:23.140 And again, I think it's really...

04:20:23.800 Aren't all causes correlates?

04:20:25.400 Uh, one second.

04:20:26.040 I, I think it's really silly to say that relationships fail or people cheat because of necessarily

04:20:33.940 their past experience.

04:20:35.640 I'm not even saying that.

04:20:36.820 Okay.

04:20:37.440 So, what, what is your overarching point?

04:20:38.740 I'm explaining, I'm explaining it to you.

04:20:40.600 So, if it is the case that we're just looking for strong correlates, this seems to be a really

04:20:44.320 strong correlate.

04:20:45.300 Okay.

04:20:45.540 That if you're a virgin, uh, you're going to cheat way less.

04:20:48.920 Now, you can make the claim, well, have we determined that that's the cause?

04:20:52.360 Well, I think that, I think even if you haven't, let's just say that there's some other correlations

04:20:57.680 there.

04:20:57.860 Like, I don't know, maybe virgins, like, um, they don't cheat for some other reason than

04:21:02.800 they haven't been with a bunch of guys.

04:21:04.580 Like, uh, they're just virgins are more likely to be Burnett's.

04:21:08.160 Let's just say.

04:21:09.080 They're more likely to what?

04:21:10.220 Be like Burnett's.

04:21:11.140 I don't know.

04:21:11.880 Like, I can't think of what...

04:21:13.280 Yeah, I think, I think Burnett's cheat less.

04:21:14.560 Yeah, I can't think what the correlate would be that would be more strong than less sexual

04:21:20.160 experience leads to less cheating.

04:21:22.140 If virgins are cheating way less, I can't think of a single...

04:21:24.520 But, you are technically correct that correlation is not causation.

04:21:29.020 We need to establish causation.

04:21:30.760 But from a reasoning standpoint, if you're a man, right?

04:21:33.860 Can you tell me the, uh, Pew Research studies just so I can pull it up?

04:21:36.600 From a reasoning standpoint, I'll link it to you, actually.

04:21:37.860 Great, thank you.

04:21:38.340 From a mystery, send me over that study, or the Pew Research data.

04:21:43.300 So, anyway...

04:21:43.520 If you just tell me the title.

04:21:44.880 Yeah, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'll give it to you.

04:21:47.380 Right?

04:21:47.700 I've brought it up in debates and sourced it multiple times.

04:21:49.960 I'll get it to you.

04:21:50.580 No, no, I'm...

04:21:51.260 But, anyway, so on the idea...

04:21:52.480 I'll say you won't.

04:21:53.200 Yeah, on the idea of virgins, let's just assume for a second, right, that we don't have

04:21:58.940 a causation.

04:21:59.540 It's just a really strong correlate.

04:22:01.060 Me, as a rational man, why wouldn't I take that into consideration when doing mate selection?

04:22:07.220 Like, I don't want to get divorced, right?

04:22:10.420 I mean, if you do want to enter into marriage, I think that's the obvious goal.

04:22:14.120 Sure.

04:22:14.900 So then, it seems like anything that would reduce me getting a divorce, like having a

04:22:19.940 woman who's much more religious, that's going to reduce the chance of divorce.

04:22:23.280 It's also going to demonstrate to me that...

04:22:25.440 I think there can be other goals, though.

04:22:26.680 Well, it's also going to demonstrate to me, if she's not having sex, that...

04:22:30.060 Would you rather be unhappily married or happily divorced?

04:22:36.760 Well, from my religious standpoint...

04:22:39.360 Well, from my preference or my religious standpoint?

04:22:41.680 Either.

04:22:42.140 Yeah, from my preference, I'd rather be happily divorced, preference-wise.

04:22:45.320 Yeah.

04:22:45.460 But I still think you have an obligation to stay married, even if you're unhappy, because

04:22:50.000 unhappiness in marriage can be short-term, even if it's only a couple of years.

04:22:54.580 So I still think there's an obligation, especially for kids, to stay together.

04:22:57.680 So anyway...

04:22:57.960 I mean, I don't necessarily disagree.

04:22:59.140 Yeah.

04:22:59.420 So that aside, we'll leave that for a second.

04:23:01.920 If I look for correlates of things, right, that strongly correlate, that are going to reduce

04:23:07.460 the chances of divorce for me.

04:23:09.400 In this case, a woman cheating is going to greatly increase the chances we get divorced.

04:23:13.900 That's just true.

04:23:15.140 Why?

04:23:16.400 Because if you cheat on me, I'm going to divorce you.

04:23:19.080 So, but you just said you have a duty.

04:23:22.360 Yes, but there's threshold breakers for the duty.

04:23:24.720 Okay.

04:23:25.160 Why is that a threshold breaker?

04:23:27.180 Because this would violate the very thing which kept me in the marriage to begin with,

04:23:31.280 which is the religious obligation towards it.

04:23:33.180 I see.

04:23:33.400 Um, would the degree of, what are we counting as cheating?

04:23:38.220 Is that intercourse?

04:23:39.520 No.

04:23:40.080 Okay.

04:23:40.460 If you just like, even the, I have an emotional connection with X for me would be cheating.

04:23:46.360 Oh, really?

04:23:46.980 Mm-hmm.

04:23:47.260 So if your wife said, I have emotional feelings for this guy, um, even if she didn't want them,

04:23:53.560 but she just still felt it.

04:23:54.560 Well, that's different.

04:23:55.560 If, well, it depends on the severity.

04:23:57.520 Like, um, I'm in love with Chad.

04:24:00.940 I don't want to be in love with Chad, but I am.

04:24:03.520 That's it.

04:24:03.960 You're done.

04:24:05.640 That's over.

04:24:07.420 So.

04:24:08.040 Go be in love with Chad when we're not married.

04:24:10.220 I'm sorry.

04:24:11.180 So if your wife developed emotional feelings for someone.

04:24:15.080 Yeah.

04:24:15.300 But didn't act on them.

04:24:16.560 Yeah.

04:24:16.840 That's still done.

04:24:17.900 Yeah.

04:24:18.220 Okay.

04:24:18.800 Yeah.

04:24:19.160 So I would consider that to be.

04:24:20.300 Do you think you have control over that?

04:24:22.320 I think, do I think I have control?

04:24:24.600 I'm sorry.

04:24:25.280 Do you think someone has control over that, of developing emotional feelings for someone else?

04:24:29.700 Sure.

04:24:30.280 You have tons of control.

04:24:31.500 For instance, you can put yourself in positions where you don't engage with men who aren't

04:24:34.560 your husband and then you can't develop those feelings.

04:24:37.580 Very simple.

04:24:38.420 Wow.

04:24:39.540 Am I wrong?

04:24:41.060 Um, I mean, you could never talk to anyone ever.

04:24:44.440 No, you could talk to people.

04:24:45.840 Well, I mean, people, you don't just meet a person and go, Oh my God, I'm in love.

04:24:51.000 That doesn't, that's not how that works.

04:24:52.200 I think things happen over, over an elongated period of time.

04:24:55.000 I agree.

04:24:55.580 Yeah.

04:24:55.820 So I think, yeah, you have tons of control over that.

04:24:58.220 So, but that aside, back to the idea of virginity, if, if it is true that virgins cheat less,

04:25:05.120 and that seems to be what the Pew Research poll says.

04:25:07.120 And if you have less than nine, right, it continuously decreases.

04:25:12.060 And then I don't remember what the number was before it basically flatlines out.

04:25:16.320 I feel like you're talking about the Institute of Family Studies, which actually said that

04:25:19.860 women with two to nine, uh, I believe two to nine partners had less divorce rates than

04:25:24.460 women with zero to two.

04:25:26.000 Well, no, that was two to, that was two to four.

04:25:28.260 I think.

04:25:28.820 I believe it was two to nine.

04:25:29.700 No.

04:25:30.000 Because I've cited that several times.

04:25:31.420 I think it was two to four, but we can check.

04:25:33.220 Yeah.

04:25:33.560 I'll have Brian pull it up when he gets back.

04:25:34.880 But still, it is the higher, uh, two to nine.

04:25:37.760 Well, let's just.

04:25:38.540 Than virgins and.

04:25:40.000 Yeah.

04:25:40.380 But if I wanted to make.

04:25:41.400 And people who have low, like low body.

04:25:42.500 But let's just grant it.

04:25:43.600 Let's just even grant the, the research for family studies.

04:25:46.760 And we'll just say like the two to nine, right.

04:25:48.620 Have a less divorce rate than even the virgin.

04:25:50.840 Yeah.

04:25:51.200 Right.

04:25:51.900 Um, fine.

04:25:53.520 Like, so if I wasn't.

04:25:55.580 Obviously not a cause.

04:25:56.260 Yeah.

04:25:56.400 If I wasn't revolted, well, there could be other contributing correlates or confounding

04:26:02.180 factors.

04:26:02.940 Yeah.

04:26:03.180 But the thing is, is that if I'm not revolted, so you agree with me that relationships revolve

04:26:07.100 around attraction.

04:26:09.380 Um, I guess it depends on what you mean by attraction.

04:26:12.320 Can you have sex with men you're not attracted to?

04:26:14.100 I mean, I can't.

04:26:14.660 No.

04:26:14.720 Yeah.

04:26:14.900 Right.

04:26:15.300 So no, neither can most people.

04:26:16.640 They don't want to have sex with people they're not attracted to.

04:26:18.920 So if you're a person, are we just talking about physical attraction?

04:26:21.820 Yeah.

04:26:22.660 Okay.

04:26:23.100 Yeah.

04:26:23.300 So if you're not physically attracted to a woman because she's not a virgin.

04:26:26.380 I mean, I think that's chain.

04:26:27.960 Like, um, there have been men that I haven't been like physically attracted to.

04:26:32.220 And then I get to know them and they become attractive.

04:26:34.340 So then you become attracted to them.

04:26:35.820 Right.

04:26:36.160 But I just want to say it's like not necessarily based on a physical basis, but because of who

04:26:40.780 they are as a person.

04:26:41.580 But you are attracted to them physically or you wouldn't sleep with them.

04:26:43.800 Right.

04:26:43.940 Yeah.

04:26:44.480 Okay.

04:26:44.780 Great.

04:26:45.080 Or emotionally, if you will.

04:26:46.320 Um, okay, whatever it is.

04:26:47.460 But so for men, physical attraction, and they don't want to sleep with women that they

04:26:50.640 don't find physically attractive.

04:26:51.940 If they find this to be revolting to them, right?

04:26:55.040 That there have been with other men, they find they, they can't maintain some type of

04:27:00.700 attracted level to the other person.

04:27:03.100 Um, then what's wrong with them selecting for a virgin?

04:27:05.580 Um, I would wonder why this is a criteria because the only-

04:27:12.400 Because you're not attracted to you if you're not a virgin.

04:27:14.400 Well, but like, why is that a quality?

04:27:19.020 I think when we talk about attractiveness, um, sure, I think there can be, um, metrics that

04:27:26.420 don't necessarily have reason.

04:27:28.280 Like, for some reason, I like brunettes more than blondes.

04:27:30.420 I don't know why.

04:27:31.840 Um, but when it comes to specific behaviors, um, I, I think that's more of like a philosophical

04:27:39.400 stance than just like this innate, you know, I'm attracted to you because of X degree.

04:27:45.380 I mean, do you think you can help, you think you can help what you find attractive?

04:27:50.400 What, what if I don't disclose though?

04:27:52.860 And then you do.

04:27:54.180 Yeah.

04:27:54.520 So let's just say hypothetically that, um, you know, a beautiful man's attracted to me

04:28:01.660 and like everything is there.

04:28:02.940 The, the personality, the compatibility, you know, is, is he really not attracted to me?

04:28:08.600 Yeah.

04:28:08.700 What if he disclosed to you that he molested children?

04:28:10.500 Would you still be attracted to him?

04:28:12.680 Um, I think there would still obviously be some feelings.

04:28:15.380 It's for that person.

04:28:16.240 Like I just don't be attracted to him.

04:28:17.500 I wouldn't stay with him.

04:28:18.440 Would you still be attracted to him?

04:28:19.720 Or do you think you could decrease, that would decrease the attraction level?

04:28:22.320 I mean, I would definitely be repulsed.

04:28:23.700 Yeah.

04:28:24.080 Yeah.

04:28:24.460 That's my whole point.

04:28:25.100 But I don't think that.

04:28:26.400 So then all that matters is, is that even if it's revealed to you later and now you,

04:28:30.760 you, so basically.

04:28:31.660 So I guess there would be like efficacy or, um, some form of validity.

04:28:37.040 Cause I think like women engaging in consensual relationships is very different than someone

04:28:42.900 who is engaging, um, like griping children.

04:28:47.260 But that's not in dispute.

04:28:48.700 It's just if this piece of information, pertinent information was revealed to you that was not

04:28:52.760 before, could that deviate your attractiveness?

04:28:55.540 Right, but what's reasonable, I guess is what I'm asking.

04:28:57.360 I think it's totally reasonable if somebody releases to you that they have slept with 50

04:29:01.480 men that you could be repulsed by that.

04:29:03.940 Why is that not reasonable?

04:29:05.180 Why, why, why would it be reasonable?

04:29:06.920 Because you don't want to envision men having sex with your woman.

04:29:10.000 So, so it is a property thing then.

04:29:12.100 Well, it's not just a property thing.

04:29:13.500 Or like an ownership thing.

04:29:13.720 It's a revulsion thing.

04:29:14.980 I don't know.

04:29:15.500 That just seems kind of insecure.

04:29:17.160 Oh, well then it's kind of insecure that you won't date a guy based on his past relationship

04:29:20.200 molesting children.

04:29:20.980 I don't think that's insecurity at all.

04:29:23.200 Like, is that, because him, like him molesting children, um, is obviously a heinous act.

04:29:30.100 But he's reformed now.

04:29:31.060 He's not doing it anymore.

04:29:32.440 It's obviously a heinous act where like someone else engaging in a consensual relationship

04:29:37.360 is not.

04:29:38.640 Why would I have an issue that they've had a past partner?

04:29:41.820 Because all that really matters is what deviates your attractiveness.

04:29:45.480 So for you, it deviates the attractiveness for this person because they did X activity

04:29:50.380 is the same thing here.

04:29:52.500 No, I, I don't think that that is a, um, fair equivalence.

04:29:56.640 Well, it's 100% of fair equivalence.

04:29:59.480 We're just talking about your attractiveness to X person.

04:30:03.160 And without attractiveness, there can be no sex.

04:30:06.820 There's no relationship.

04:30:07.440 But I think we, we have to talk about like essentially what, um, when we look at like

04:30:14.700 societal qualifiers, I think like there are obviously, uh, reasonable expectations when

04:30:19.940 it comes to a partner.

04:30:20.900 I, I just don't know why someone would be repulsed by consensual sex acts.

04:30:26.240 Why is that?

04:30:27.220 I don't understand.

04:30:28.700 I feel like you're just kind of saying like men are conditioned into patriarchy to value

04:30:32.960 virginity because they view it.

04:30:34.400 You're not making an argument.

04:30:35.400 Like you're not making an argument right now.

04:30:37.600 Can men not be attracted to women based on the fact that they have a higher body count?

04:30:42.360 And if the answer is yes, and attraction and retraction requires is required for there

04:30:49.020 to be sex in a relationship to begin with, then I need an argument for why it is men can't

04:30:54.340 be attracted to only virgins.

04:30:56.340 I need to know that.

04:30:57.300 What is the argument against that?

04:30:58.380 You would, are you attracted to an experience?

04:31:00.940 You're attracted to the fact that they've had less men they've slept with.

04:31:05.020 That's an attractive quality to you.

04:31:06.680 How is that attractive?

04:31:08.200 Because it is.

04:31:09.200 It's attractive to you.

04:31:10.160 I don't think it is because it is.

04:31:11.700 Do you think you can help attraction?

04:31:14.280 Um, I, I think that attraction can come from aspects of social conditioning.

04:31:18.580 Sure.

04:31:19.260 So you could personally help right now who you're attracted to.

04:31:21.760 Um, I mean, in some capacity, I think there are, uh, levels of conditioning when it comes

04:31:30.280 to society that tell us like what are okay criteria and what are not okay.

04:31:34.320 So can gay men do that?

04:31:35.900 What do you mean?

04:31:36.440 Can they determine that they're not attracted to men?

04:31:39.820 Uh, I mean, that's different.

04:31:41.600 Now we're talking about.

04:31:42.240 Now it's different.

04:31:43.020 Yeah.

04:31:43.180 Now we're talking about like sexual identity versus like.

04:31:47.480 No, we're still talking about what we're talking about that we find attractive.

04:31:51.760 Do you think gay men can suddenly just will themselves to not be attracted to other gay

04:31:57.180 men?

04:31:57.940 Of course not.

04:31:58.720 Oh, okay.

04:31:59.260 Well then how come sexual identity is very different than what we would consider preferences.

04:32:04.520 Do you think if I like find brunettes attractive that like I don't find blondes attractive?

04:32:10.500 Well, wait a second.

04:32:12.380 I I'm, I'm super confused.

04:32:13.860 I also don't think that you could only find blondes attractive and not find brunettes attractive.

04:32:18.800 So you can definitely only find blondes attractive.

04:32:22.120 So I think that when we talk about social prescriptions to say that men have this social

04:32:30.620 prescription to want virgins to me is just.

04:32:34.540 No, that's not, I didn't say anything about social prescription for, for men to have this

04:32:38.220 philosophy or preference of wanting virgins to be, um, again, is just essentially like misogynistic

04:32:46.340 conditioning.

04:32:47.120 Yeah.

04:32:47.260 Yeah.

04:32:47.360 That's an assertion, right?

04:32:49.380 You're not actually making an argument.

04:32:51.260 So I need an argument for why it was that men couldn't be attracted to women who have

04:32:56.960 not slept with any other men.

04:32:58.280 And that's the preference for attractiveness.

04:33:00.620 I mean, it's information that only the person can give you.

04:33:07.020 That's right.

04:33:07.380 So if I say I am a virgin and that's a not fact true, then.

04:33:15.860 Yeah.

04:33:16.040 But now we're back to the same issue with the guy who reveals that he diddled kids.

04:33:19.860 If he tells you he didn't diddle kids, you find him amazing.

04:33:23.040 The second he reveals to you that he did, you find that way less attractive.

04:33:26.280 I guess we're like, I feel like the false comparison here is like you're comparing an

04:33:30.240 immoral act to a non-immoral.

04:33:32.000 Well, that's a matter of perspective.

04:33:33.180 I could say that from my perspective, for the Christian perspective, it's an immoral

04:33:36.820 act to have sex outside of marriage.

04:33:38.580 So the less you do that immoral act, the more attractive I find you.

04:33:43.660 Yeah.

04:33:44.600 So this is just perspective when you're talking about the moral aspect.

04:33:48.680 And by the way, because...

04:33:50.520 I mean, I think consent being a main basis would be a really good foundation when determining

04:33:57.980 like evaluating attractiveness based on sexual history.

04:34:03.180 Wait, say that.

04:34:05.220 I'm sorry.

04:34:06.600 When we...

04:34:07.460 When we're talking about sexual history, I just don't know why consensual mutual acts

04:34:20.260 can be like that.

04:34:23.340 That's not immoral.

04:34:24.340 Engaging with someone consensually is not an immoral action.

04:34:28.460 From your view.

04:34:29.000 But from the view of the Christian, it is.

04:34:33.660 So if you were a Christian and your preference was to have a Christian woman...

04:34:37.980 Right.

04:34:38.120 But why does Christianity prescribe that?

04:34:41.120 What?

04:34:43.060 Who cares?

04:34:44.040 We're just talking about your...

04:34:45.040 I do think...

04:34:45.660 Well, I mean, obviously that's a patriarchal...

04:34:46.760 Why would that matter when it comes to your preference for attractiveness?

04:34:50.440 Because obviously it's a patriarchal prescription in order to maintain like male supremacy.

04:34:56.540 So is it...

04:34:57.760 With the Christian purview, is it equal?

04:35:00.300 Well, I think that religion is the only thing which can account for things like purity, good,

04:35:06.940 bad.

04:35:07.560 They're the only thing that can give accounts for those things anyway.

04:35:10.260 So I...

04:35:11.100 I disagree with them.

04:35:12.140 Okay.

04:35:12.760 Well, then let's take something that's super simple if you disagree with that.

04:35:17.380 Justice.

04:35:18.980 Account for justice from a secular worldview.

04:35:21.060 Like it's just as...

04:35:22.000 Well, so it's just as just for me if somebody were to murder my daughter for me to murder

04:35:26.880 theirs.

04:35:27.780 That's just as just.

04:35:29.900 Why isn't it?

04:35:31.380 You did it wrong to me.

04:35:32.520 I did it wrong back to you.

04:35:33.960 Right?

04:35:34.440 You got exactly what you deserve back.

04:35:36.280 That seems very just.

04:35:37.600 And yet we don't do that.

04:35:39.180 Again, I think just isn't necessarily like what is right in terms of punishment because

04:35:45.820 like obviously you killing the person's daughter doesn't bring your daughter back.

04:35:51.440 So what does that have to do with justice?

04:35:54.000 If the idea is...

04:35:54.700 I think that would be the justice is where your daughter was never killed.

04:35:57.820 Yeah.

04:35:58.000 But so you're accounting for it just through preference.

04:36:00.920 So that's fine.

04:36:02.160 You can account...

04:36:02.580 No, I'm just saying that justice and kind of like retribution...

04:36:08.180 Or punishment is just not...

04:36:12.440 The etymology of the word justice, if I remember correctly, is to set to right.

04:36:18.560 That is the idea of justice.

04:36:19.920 To set to right.

04:36:21.140 Okay.

04:36:21.460 Or to bring order.

04:36:22.560 Something like this.

04:36:23.400 Now don't quote me on that.

04:36:24.360 I could be wrong about it.

04:36:25.300 But I think that that's the etymology.

04:36:27.100 It's like just setting it right.

04:36:28.600 You can literally make that anything you want to be just.

04:36:32.880 Right?

04:36:33.120 Anything that you did.

04:36:34.020 If someone's punished, I don't think that's like to set to right.

04:36:38.160 Punishing somebody?

04:36:39.400 Correct.

04:36:40.100 So jails?

04:36:41.560 Bad?

04:36:42.780 I mean, I don't think that that's necessarily like justice in itself, especially within our

04:36:50.120 system.

04:36:50.400 We don't give like victims any access.

04:36:53.400 Yeah.

04:36:53.620 In our system.

04:36:54.380 To healing and to health.

04:36:55.020 So justice is just perspective.

04:36:56.520 It can't be accounted for outside of your preference.

04:36:58.280 So the thing is, it's like since none of these.

04:37:00.220 Well, I would say justice would either be preventing the action from occurring in the

04:37:04.220 future.

04:37:04.440 You would say.

04:37:05.420 Stopping.

04:37:06.000 Me.

04:37:06.500 This is me saying again.

04:37:08.020 Okay.

04:37:08.960 No, you.

04:37:09.640 You're saying.

04:37:10.380 Yes.

04:37:11.580 So.

04:37:12.060 I'm defining the concept correct.

04:37:13.560 Yeah.

04:37:13.780 From your, from whose perspective though?

04:37:16.360 From mine.

04:37:17.120 So it's accounted for by your preference.

04:37:19.380 My preference for what?

04:37:20.740 To whatever justice is.

04:37:21.860 Okay.

04:37:22.580 Right?

04:37:24.460 You're accounting for it through your preference, right?

04:37:26.160 Um, sure.

04:37:28.660 Like I guess understanding of concept, but, um, I think we can obviously see that like

04:37:33.040 within harm reduction.

04:37:35.040 Like harm reduction itself is just accounting for through your preference.

04:37:38.380 Again, do you want harm reduced?

04:37:40.660 Like my preference could be that I want harm maximized.

04:37:43.540 You can't account for why mine is bad and yours is good other than because you want harm

04:37:47.800 reduced.

04:37:48.240 It's all accounted for through your preference.

04:37:49.580 Well, I think harm reduced, like when we look at harm and suffering, like that is a physiological

04:37:54.380 experience that, um, our bodies do have negative outcomes for.

04:38:00.060 And if we're both going to agree that our subjective experience is essentially what, what our life

04:38:06.440 is, then, um, the thing of life that we have value would need to be of, of the best quality

04:38:13.520 to where we have experiences, um, that are desired.

04:38:19.020 Yeah, but you can have experiences that are desired that you would still be against, even

04:38:25.260 if they cause no harm because you don't have a consistent principle.

04:38:28.300 Like here, I'll give you a great example.

04:38:30.320 Two brothers want to have sex with each other and they're consenting adults.

04:38:34.840 This is wrong due to what?

04:38:38.500 Um, if there's no power dynamic, I mean, I, I don't have a claim against incest.

04:38:43.860 Really?

04:38:44.660 Yeah.

04:38:45.300 Oh.

04:38:45.840 Other than it's just icky, but no.

04:38:47.980 It's just, it's yucky.

04:38:49.200 What about necrophilia?

04:38:51.380 So, necrophilia, I do think, um, is obviously what we talked about, like a paraphilic, which

04:38:57.480 I would say in terms of someone's sexual, uh, psychology, um, is, is harmful to them in

04:39:07.000 itself because it has the criteria that you're, um, engaging with someone who's unconscious.

04:39:12.760 You're not engaging with someone at all.

04:39:14.400 Well, right.

04:39:16.080 But, uh, an entity that is unconscious.

04:39:18.580 If you're not engaging with an entity at all, you're not engaging with anything, right?

04:39:23.340 From your view, there's no soul, right?

04:39:26.400 Right.

04:39:26.580 So then what are you engaging with, with a dead body?

04:39:31.100 I mean, obviously you're, you're having like, there, there is still, um, remnants of a person

04:39:37.400 there, even though personhood is present.

04:39:39.320 There's no person there.

04:39:41.040 Personhood isn't present.

04:39:42.100 Correct.

04:39:42.660 There's nothing there.

04:39:43.880 It's just nothing.

04:39:45.580 Right.

04:39:46.140 I know.

04:39:46.860 Just, just flesh.

04:39:47.360 I know, but just, uh, again, it's similar to someone if they were unconscious, right?

04:39:53.060 No.

04:39:55.300 Unconscious.

04:39:55.900 Do you agree?

04:39:56.360 That's still a person dead.

04:39:58.220 You agree.

04:39:58.940 It's not a person.

04:39:59.780 Correct.

04:40:00.360 So then no, it's not, but I mean, in terms of the, the experience that you have as the

04:40:04.500 assailant.

04:40:05.920 Yeah.

04:40:06.320 Not the experience.

04:40:06.900 What if your experience is that you fucking love this and it's great.

04:40:10.300 I think that's, even if there is pleasure from it, it still is harmful for you.

04:40:15.540 Prove it.

04:40:16.400 What's the harm?

04:40:17.340 Prove it.

04:40:18.280 How do you, how do you demonstrate that's harmful?

04:40:20.060 The person tells you it's not harming me.

04:40:22.080 Um, again, when, when it, like the psychology, it's kind of similar.

04:40:26.200 Like people always say like serial killers are really happy, like unaliving and murdering

04:40:30.000 people.

04:40:30.940 Um, but I do think there is harm because kind of the concept of like harm is done to you.

04:40:36.880 Harm is done to me.

04:40:39.380 Fucking, I'm going to, dude, that's, it's, it's over for you, Brian.

04:40:43.280 There's no way.

04:40:43.740 I think there are, are psychological profiles of someone's sexual identity that even if

04:40:47.800 they like it is still harmful to them.

04:40:50.060 It is detrimental.

04:40:50.900 Yeah.

04:40:51.000 But you can't prove that.

04:40:52.000 You just like, it's just made up.

04:40:53.620 Right.

04:40:54.080 So a person says, if a person's telling you I'm not harmed by this and I absolutely adore

04:40:59.140 it.

04:40:59.380 Right.

04:40:59.780 You can't demonstrate that they're harmed by it.

04:41:02.600 I mean, there are specific ways I think you can through like, I mean, you can't like

04:41:08.380 test for it.

04:41:09.640 Sure.

04:41:09.840 As it's happening because of certain brain chemical reactions not being monitored.

04:41:14.480 But I think, uh, thank you.

04:41:16.060 I think you would agree like to someone, um, who is like cutting themselves, even though

04:41:21.520 they're happy about it and they love it.

04:41:23.120 But they're still harming themselves by your definition.

04:41:28.340 Um, actually I'll just grant it.

04:41:30.560 And by your definition, sure.

04:41:32.720 We can literally see that there's cuts on the arm.

04:41:35.520 So I'm saying that what is going on in the brain, you can't see.

04:41:39.060 So then how do you know it's true that it's actually harming them?

04:41:41.900 Um, you don't, right?

04:41:46.000 Like you don't actually know that.

04:41:48.040 I, I do.

04:41:48.980 Cause I think we can measure again, like when we see aspects of suffering, how that changes

04:41:53.700 your brain and, uh, how trauma changes your brain.

04:41:56.720 These are physiological occurrences that change your brain, which, which are harmful and negative.

04:42:02.180 You can't demonstrate that a person who tells you they're happy as can be banging a dead

04:42:07.020 body.

04:42:07.460 I mean, I can't like, that's not possible to demonstrate that people who suffer or have

04:42:13.760 severe trauma have different, um, brain structures.

04:42:17.520 They're not suffering and have no trauma.

04:42:19.800 They love doing this.

04:42:20.860 It's their favorite.

04:42:22.160 Maybe if they're not conscious of it.

04:42:24.000 No, they're conscious of it.

04:42:25.040 They just really like it.

04:42:27.260 Um, again, I, I think you can see differences in brain structures when it comes to certain psychological

04:42:33.260 outcomes, even if the conscious is saying this is enjoyable.

04:42:36.220 So are you saying that there's not a single human being on planet earth?

04:42:38.960 Who's a man who's had sex with a dead body and continuously does this, who doesn't just

04:42:45.520 do it because they enjoy it?

04:42:48.900 Um, who does it be like that?

04:42:51.160 That's not my claim though.

04:42:52.820 Then what's the harm to him from his perspective?

04:42:55.960 I'm telling you that there are brain, like it changes certain brain structures that are

04:43:00.280 harmful to him, even if he's not aware of it.

04:43:02.360 Which ones?

04:43:03.300 I don't know on that one.

04:43:04.260 Cause they're, it's just, it's totally made up.

04:43:06.920 You can't, you can't look at the brain that way and be like, oh, you've 20 dead bodies.

04:43:12.420 And this thing, this thing over here is now twisted.

04:43:15.540 That's not how that works.

04:43:16.620 Sure.

04:43:16.800 Sure.

04:43:17.020 Like, obviously I can't say like, you know, this brain, this region of your brain is where

04:43:21.620 you did necrophilia.

04:43:22.480 So really the harm principle is where you did, um, like incest.

04:43:25.760 So you're just doing the same thing, right?

04:43:27.940 You're saying, I think that it's harmful because I think it's harmful.

04:43:31.660 I can't really demonstrate it.

04:43:33.000 I just think it is anyway.

04:43:35.760 I, I think like psychology and sure.

04:43:38.860 I acknowledge like, I'm not, um, you know, like a neurologist or like a brain scientist.

04:43:44.420 But, um, yes, I do think there is, uh, certain things that we can see in the outcomes of like

04:43:50.980 how the brain mouths and transforms and responds to its environment that would, we could measure.

04:43:55.320 And that would happen with every single man who engaged in that activity.

04:43:59.000 Yes.

04:43:59.640 Okay.

04:43:59.880 So then would you say that this is the case with women who have many, many sexual partners

04:44:05.400 that their amount of trauma would increase?

04:44:07.740 Um, again, I think it would depend, um, on the experience itself.

04:44:12.700 Like, obviously I think someone, um, who has been graped several times is going to have

04:44:19.700 a different sexual experience.

04:44:21.820 Um, you know, maybe having however many bodies you want to, uh, let's just say for the sake

04:44:27.120 of the argument, 10 bodies, but every single one of them graped her, there's going to be

04:44:32.000 a different psychological profile than someone who has engaged in 10 consensual relationships.

04:44:37.220 I see.

04:44:38.060 Do you think that a person who has engaged in multiple relationships is going to have more

04:44:41.820 baggage than a person who hasn't?

04:44:44.000 I think it depends.

04:44:45.080 Just generally, on average.

04:44:46.900 I, I see, it's hard to, to give that generalization because I think it depends on the quality of

04:44:51.380 the relationship.

04:44:52.980 Okay.

04:44:53.440 Or the experience of the relationship.

04:44:54.780 Do I think if someone might have had like two or three really toxic romantic relationships,

04:45:00.200 they might have more baggage than someone who might have like four or five one night

04:45:03.900 stands because they don't have.

04:45:06.760 But all of them are going to have more baggage than a person who had no relationships.

04:45:09.540 Um, who's had no relationships or no sex?

04:45:13.000 No relationships.

04:45:15.380 Um, I mean, I don't know.

04:45:16.980 I think incels have a lot of baggage and a lot of them are virgins.

04:45:20.060 No, no, no.

04:45:20.480 Not relationship based baggage.

04:45:23.220 Uh, what, what do you mean by that?

04:45:25.020 Like for instance, if, if you're in a relationship with a man for, I don't know, five years or something

04:45:30.620 like this and it ends in complete, like, it's just a fucking disaster, right?

04:45:36.080 It's going to create trauma for you, right?

04:45:37.700 Yeah.

04:45:38.120 Okay.

04:45:38.880 I would prefer not to deal with that trauma.

04:45:41.280 And I, I would say that women who experience that trauma would not experience that trauma

04:45:46.820 if they weren't in that relationship.

04:45:48.600 So the idea here is same thing with sex, right?

04:45:51.260 Is that the more sexual partners you have, more chance for trauma.

04:45:54.100 So I think it depends kind of, again, on a lot of multitude of different things.

04:46:01.400 Like, um, I mean, here, I'll give you an example.

04:46:04.680 I would say I had more trauma from, uh, the disillusion of my marriage than I did from,

04:46:10.520 um, all other casual relationships combined.

04:46:13.540 Yeah.

04:46:13.700 That makes sense to me.

04:46:14.880 Totally.

04:46:15.600 So being with a divorcee would, that would be trauma, right?

04:46:19.000 That they would have more baggage just on average than someone who wasn't a divorcee.

04:46:22.820 I would have like a divorcee has more baggage.

04:46:27.600 Yeah.

04:46:27.860 Probably has more baggage than someone who's not been divorced.

04:46:30.500 Um, I mean, sure.

04:46:31.420 I can grant that more.

04:46:32.180 Yeah.

04:46:32.360 So then, so now we're starting to whittle down sexual selection.

04:46:36.320 So if we're just talking about trauma or are we talking about things like this, I would

04:46:40.600 say that, for instance, is it okay for a man to have a preference not to have been, not

04:46:44.100 to be with a woman who was graped because he doesn't want to deal with her baggage?

04:46:48.580 Um, I wouldn't necessarily place the preference on being graped, but essentially like their

04:46:55.460 emotional state and kind of where they are within their capacity.

04:47:00.500 Um, yeah.

04:47:02.760 Yeah.

04:47:03.080 So that would be fine.

04:47:03.780 It would just depend on, again, it's not the criteria of have they been graped or not.

04:47:09.240 Um, it's kind of where they are within, you know, that experience.

04:47:14.200 Was it 10 years ago and they've really healed from that?

04:47:17.020 Was it yesterday?

04:47:18.420 And, you know, they're having a nervous breakdown.

04:47:20.740 Again, that would just be context dependent.

04:47:22.940 Yeah.

04:47:23.040 But that baggage exists due to the fact that there was a grave.

04:47:26.020 And you would agree with me that.

04:47:27.500 I mean, I think that baggage can morph itself in different formats.

04:47:30.140 Agreed.

04:47:30.880 But in this case, it came from that.

04:47:33.320 So in other words, I guess I'm getting at this.

04:47:34.640 I guess I just don't think you should make assumptions on that and evaluate the person.

04:47:37.740 Maybe not.

04:47:38.380 But do you agree with me that grape is traumatizing for women?

04:47:41.260 Yes.

04:47:41.800 I think it's traumatizing for anyone.

04:47:43.260 Sure.

04:47:43.620 I guess not you, but.

04:47:44.500 Do you think, do you think that since it's traumatizing for women, that men should probably

04:47:49.100 look at it as a red flag if they don't want to deal with.

04:47:51.960 What do you mean a red flag?

04:47:52.960 Trauma.

04:47:53.680 They don't want to deal with a woman's trauma.

04:47:55.000 Um, I mean, it can certainly be like a, I'm trying to think, you know, like a point, like

04:48:03.060 something you note, but I think you should be evaluating, um, the person that you're with

04:48:08.480 based on their behavior and your interaction with them, not necessarily predetermined,

04:48:13.320 um, facts.

04:48:16.320 All predetermined facts or just some?

04:48:18.020 I mean, they're, you're going to go back, I'm sure, to the child molester.

04:48:21.240 Well, I'm just, I'm just pointing out like the consistency aspect here.

04:48:24.400 It seems like it's perfectly acceptable for men to have preferences where they say, I rule

04:48:30.540 you out because I just don't want to deal with this ever.

04:48:32.900 And I mean, like, sure, I'm not going to like force someone to be like, oh no.

04:48:38.240 But I mean, it sounds legitimate.

04:48:39.760 Date person X.

04:48:40.240 What's like, what's illegitimate about a man saying, I want a virgin because I feel revolted

04:48:45.120 when a woman's not one.

04:48:46.840 I think he needs to unpack why he feels revolted.

04:48:49.780 Okay.

04:48:50.140 So he unpacks it and he discovers why, but he still is.

04:48:52.820 Well, what's the, what's the reason?

04:48:54.700 I don't know.

04:48:55.200 But whatever it is, he still, he knows what it is, but he can't just shut it off.

04:48:58.960 Like, well, maybe then he doesn't need to, I mean, so.

04:49:03.660 So what's wrong with that?

04:49:04.800 Do you support like large age gaps?

04:49:07.700 Sure.

04:49:08.660 Is there any criteria?

04:49:10.000 Not really.

04:49:12.920 No.

04:49:13.180 So you're fine with a 45 year old dating an 18 year old?

04:49:15.940 Yeah.

04:49:16.320 Okay.

04:49:18.920 You know, we can come back to the age, we can come back to the age gap.

04:49:22.480 Well, I want to finish this, like, we're all right there.

04:49:25.240 Andrew, the pineapple pizza.

04:49:27.380 I'm not eating it.

04:49:28.820 Andrew.

04:49:29.480 I told you I wasn't going to eat it.

04:49:30.900 I'll literally throw up, bro.

04:49:32.540 I can't do it.

04:49:34.040 There's, it's so gross to me.

04:49:35.360 It's like, it's so gross.

04:49:38.960 Will you eat a singular pineapple?

04:49:41.260 You won't even, do you like, you don't like pineapple?

04:49:43.200 Dude, it makes me sick.

04:49:44.140 Literally.

04:49:44.600 Like you won't eat pineapple on its own.

04:49:46.300 Is it just pineapple or is it?

04:49:46.460 No.

04:49:46.980 Pineapple juice?

04:49:47.720 Nope.

04:49:49.060 Nothing.

04:49:49.420 Are you allergic to it?

04:49:50.540 No, it just makes me like feel sick.

04:49:53.520 Are you feeling a bit uncomfortable that it's even that close to you?

04:49:56.180 I don't care if it's close to you.

04:49:57.100 Like skin contact's okay.

04:49:58.520 Yeah.

04:49:58.700 But ingesting pineapple is a no-go.

04:50:02.120 Don't you have like a food you really hate?

04:50:04.120 Sure.

04:50:04.720 That's that for me.

04:50:05.600 What is it?

04:50:06.680 Well, I have an actual allergy to something.

04:50:08.680 Oh, yeah.

04:50:09.420 Well, but what's a food you hate though?

04:50:15.040 Shit, that's a hard one.

04:50:19.260 Horseradish.

04:50:20.040 Oh, delicious.

04:50:20.960 Or sauerkraut.

04:50:22.500 That's okay.

04:50:23.280 I'm not a, I don't like sauerkraut.

04:50:24.540 I hate sauerkraut.

04:50:25.420 I don't like sauerkraut.

04:50:26.160 But that's all, that's because cabbage, gross.

04:50:29.140 Do you want to eat some of your pizza or are you guys?

04:50:32.120 I mean, I'm fine.

04:50:33.320 But if you're forcing.

04:50:34.820 I'm the only one who's going to be eating.

04:50:36.180 If you're forcing people to eat.

04:50:38.660 I'm just eat.

04:50:39.620 I'm just alone here eating a pineapple pizza.

04:50:41.300 Well, it's a good time.

04:50:42.400 Let her eat a piece of pineapple pizza and I'll have a smoke.

04:50:44.560 We'll finish this thing.

04:50:46.660 Yeah.

04:50:46.840 You guys want to.

04:50:47.440 I mean, I'm not hungry.

04:50:48.760 So that's why.

04:50:49.340 But you want to do bathroom break.

04:50:50.540 Andrew needs a smoke.

04:50:51.520 Maybe that was right.

04:50:51.960 And then we'll go for what?

04:50:52.840 Another 30 minutes.

04:50:54.020 I already forgot.

04:50:54.400 But before you guys get up, I do want to let a couple chats come through really quick

04:51:00.360 here.

04:51:00.920 So we have.

04:51:01.800 He looks pissed at you.

04:51:03.400 We look really mad at him.

04:51:04.400 I promise you, that's not working.

04:51:06.740 Myron wants to collab.

04:51:08.560 He already reached out to you and maybe the master debater as well.

04:51:12.880 Would love to see you all together.

04:51:15.160 Oh slash.

04:51:16.260 Yeah.

04:51:16.520 Well, Andrew, you've been on their show a couple of times.

04:51:19.340 So hold on.

04:51:20.500 We got some other chats coming.

04:51:21.800 Daddy, thank you.

04:51:22.760 Oh my God.

04:51:23.220 I can't believe I said that.

04:51:25.160 Thank you for the.

04:51:26.360 Oh my God.

04:51:27.200 That's ridiculous.

04:51:28.080 Okay.

04:51:28.980 We have Lucas here.

04:51:31.000 Lucas donated $100.

04:51:33.720 For the love of God with these gender studies, nebulous talking points three.

04:51:37.980 What virginity is defined as.

04:51:40.340 How ABT no hymen, no diamond.

04:51:43.220 If it's good enough for kings, it's good enough for me.

04:51:46.600 Wait, sorry.

04:51:47.040 Just repeat it.

04:51:47.760 Just I don't know if they heard.

04:51:48.940 No hymen, no diamond is crazy.

04:51:51.280 Oh, okay.

04:51:52.940 All right.

04:51:53.280 No hymen, no diamond.

04:51:54.300 It's crazy.

04:51:55.520 Why is it crazy?

04:51:56.640 Just for Lucas?

04:51:57.840 Because he's curious.

04:51:59.860 Um, I mean, I, I think when we, again, I, I just don't know why men fetishize someone

04:52:07.560 who has little sexual experience.

04:52:11.660 Why, why would it be a problem even if they did?

04:52:13.960 Uh, cause I think when we're talking about like someone who's making decisions, um, or

04:52:21.400 someone who's well balanced, um, and well-rounded that obviously with more experience, you make

04:52:26.520 better decisions.

04:52:27.260 Well, this assumes that the person has more sexual experience than the person has none.

04:52:32.120 Like, well, you can, I, I don't understand.

04:52:34.860 Why can't you fetishize a woman having no sexual experience and have no sexual experience

04:52:39.900 yourself?

04:52:41.340 Ah, that's bad.

04:52:42.560 Um, I, again, I, I think when you are centering the fact that she doesn't have sexual experience,

04:52:51.900 then that is, um, because you see, you have more opportunity to manipulate, to coerce, to, um, to abuse.

04:53:03.840 Oh, I see.

04:53:04.700 So then, um, I just gotta, gotta quickly ask, if the roles are reversed, if, um, if a woman

04:53:13.100 selects on a man based on the fact that he hasn't gone out and slept with a bunch of women.

04:53:17.320 Um, so let's say that there's a man in town and he's, well, you know, he's pretty well

04:53:22.400 known for being a ladies' man.

04:53:24.180 You know, the women all like him a lot and he bangs a lot of them.

04:53:27.480 Um, and this woman doesn't really like that.

04:53:30.040 She thinks that that's kind of ick.

04:53:32.040 Uh, you think that she, she really shouldn't find it very icky, right?

04:53:37.520 Um, should she find it icky that he slept with a lot of women?

04:53:40.860 Yeah.

04:53:42.880 I mean, okay.

04:53:47.320 Does she, I don't, I don't think, no, I, I don't think that, um, this idea that like

04:53:53.480 having multiple conceptual relationships means that you're icky.

04:53:57.020 Oh, I see.

04:53:57.740 So let me just want to make sure I got it clear.

04:54:00.420 If you went to a town and there was a guy in the town had a reputation for fucking a lot

04:54:05.320 of women, like he just did this a lot.

04:54:08.140 Um, you wouldn't make any preconceived judgments about him maybe being a playboy, maybe being

04:54:14.480 a player.

04:54:14.820 I guess what you mean by a playboy or a player.

04:54:16.880 You know, like, uh, he doesn't like to commit.

04:54:19.720 He likes to play the field.

04:54:21.080 He likes to have a lot of sex.

04:54:22.600 Why am I making this assessment?

04:54:23.320 He likes to maybe lie to get into women's pants.

04:54:25.600 You know, like preconceived notions, which would come with a guy who normally has sex

04:54:29.040 with a lot of women.

04:54:29.640 Why am I making this assessment?

04:54:31.720 Because you are a pattern recognition machine and notate that.

04:54:36.040 I mean, am I engaging with him?

04:54:37.000 Well, I'm just going to ask you flat out.

04:54:38.640 Do you, do you, have you ever known guys like that?

04:54:40.640 Yeah.

04:54:40.820 Oh, okay.

04:54:41.700 And the types of guys that you know who are like that, aren't they generally players?

04:54:46.600 Um, and so again, just so I understand the criteria that you mean by player, are they

04:54:52.020 just someone who is interested in casual sex?

04:54:54.120 Or are you also adding that criteria that they use the means of manipulation in order to

04:54:59.040 gain access to sex?

04:54:59.660 All of the above.

04:55:00.860 They like all of that.

04:55:02.640 Um, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily place the criteria that he uses the means of manipulation,

04:55:07.960 but could I say he has an interest in casual sex?

04:55:11.140 Sure.

04:55:11.980 You wouldn't ever associate any negative characteristics with him though, just because he had slept with

04:55:17.040 a lot of women?

04:55:17.700 Sure.

04:55:18.640 Correct.

04:55:19.180 Never?

04:55:19.380 Um, no, as long as I'm aware that they're consensual.

04:55:24.420 Would it give you the ick?

04:55:26.340 Um, no.

04:55:27.860 No?

04:55:28.340 No.

04:55:28.700 Could you foresee that there's other women who it would give them the ick?

04:55:32.060 Sure.

04:55:32.720 Then why can't it give the ick to the man?

04:55:35.520 Give the ick to the man?

04:55:36.760 Well, again, I think this is just kind of like, um, certain social purviews that we see

04:55:42.100 within society to where somehow having, um, multiple consensual relationships is dirty

04:55:47.960 or gross and kind of the, you know, I just think the women shouldn't have the ick in

04:55:54.520 impurity culture.

04:55:55.740 Okay.

04:55:55.820 So you think that women shouldn't have the ick?

04:55:57.180 I think it's, yeah, the reverse of purity culture.

04:55:58.860 Right.

04:55:59.120 Right.

04:55:59.380 So when, so it just depends on what your goals are in terms of.

04:56:03.720 So then virgins should give men who've had a lot of sexual partners a chance.

04:56:08.920 Yeah.

04:56:09.320 I don't think you shouldn't, you shouldn't base your decision-making based on their body.

04:56:13.880 I agree.

04:56:14.520 We don't have anything to argue about.

04:56:15.680 If a woman has no body count and a man has a really, really high body count, she should

04:56:22.720 not make any preconceived judgments about him and should date him.

04:56:25.540 And she'd not assume for a second that that man just wants to take her virginity.

04:56:31.800 She should not assume that.

04:56:33.560 Okay.

04:56:34.320 Right.

04:56:36.080 Um, no, I don't think she should assume that.

04:56:38.160 Okay, good.

04:56:39.020 No.

04:56:40.020 Then I think we're on the same page here.

04:56:41.080 Okay.

04:56:41.920 All right.

04:56:42.320 I'll let some, wow, a shocker.

04:56:43.540 Let some other, uh, chats.

04:56:45.420 I saw you kind of eyeballing the pizza.

04:56:47.460 I mean, you should.

04:56:47.860 I'm really not hungry.

04:56:48.700 Can I have another drink though?

04:56:50.040 We, uh, we can get you another drink.

04:56:53.380 Uh, once Andrew's back, we'll get to the rest of the chats here.

04:56:57.320 I, I won't let any come through unless everybody is at the table.

04:57:02.740 Uh, Blake is going to get you a, uh, another drink.

04:57:07.800 If you can pass him the other one.

04:57:09.160 Oh, thank you.

04:57:09.220 Appreciate you.

04:57:10.120 Rock it.

04:57:11.100 Rock it.

04:57:11.640 So do you, you just don't like pineapple pizza or what's up?

04:57:14.180 No, I've actually, um, debated on TikTok if pineapple should go on pizza and I was pro.

04:57:18.520 Oh, you're, you're the pro pineapple on pizza.

04:57:21.120 Okay.

04:57:21.540 I don't think you should have social prescription on what you, or like any kind of prescription

04:57:25.660 on what you put on pizza.

04:57:26.700 Got it.

04:57:27.560 Okay.

04:57:28.120 Is it, you just don't like, you don't want to eat it right now?

04:57:31.280 I'm just not hungry.

04:57:32.220 You're not hungry.

04:57:32.360 I don't know what you want me to tell you.

04:57:34.120 Okay.

04:57:34.400 You know, that's, that's fair.

04:57:36.260 If I took a bite, would it make you happier?

04:57:39.100 Uh, it would actually.

04:57:40.600 Why?

04:57:41.420 Whoa.

04:57:42.620 Get your mind out of the gutter.

04:57:44.000 I feel like you're.

04:57:44.820 I'm not in the gutter whatsoever.

04:57:45.680 I get your mind out of the gutter.

04:57:47.140 I don't know.

04:57:47.440 You're trying to say like, I want to see you eat a pizza, like in a sexual way.

04:57:51.580 That's not what I'm saying.

04:57:52.080 I'm not making it sexual at all.

04:57:53.300 Are you, are you flirting?

04:57:53.920 Like, what do you, what's going on here?

04:57:55.220 I'll stop it.

04:57:56.240 Look, you're like trying to put, say, say I'm wanting you to watch you eat a pizza.

04:58:01.360 I'm just, I'm not into that.

04:58:02.840 All you had to say is, I don't like to eat alone.

04:58:05.460 Look, if you want.

04:58:06.400 If that's the reason, that's fine.

04:58:07.920 Look, if you want to deal with dudes who like watching you eat food, I'm, look, I don't

04:58:12.720 kink shame.

04:58:13.420 I'm not a kink shamer.

04:58:14.280 I'm just saying, if like, if that's what you want, I'm just, I was more just, I got

04:58:19.680 you pizza.

04:58:20.480 I don't want to watch you eat it.

04:58:22.360 I just, I, you know, I thought it would be a kind gesture.

04:58:26.160 I understand.

04:58:26.760 It would be a kind gesture.

04:58:28.140 That's all you had to say.

04:58:30.180 Good talk.

04:58:30.820 Uh, so guys, uh, I don't know if we're going to do the 16th.

04:58:34.900 I mean, because nobody else is eating.

04:58:36.780 I was eating awkwardly there.

04:58:38.760 Uh, but those, those that did come through, we're going to pull them up.

04:58:43.460 What, why would, what's the thing we were doing if we were all eating?

04:58:46.780 Huh?

04:58:47.560 What are we not doing anymore?

04:58:48.480 Oh, so, well, we were going to do like a pizza roast session while y'all were eating

04:58:54.800 your pizza, but you're not hungry.

04:58:58.500 Andrew doesn't want to have pineapple.

04:59:00.040 You've had him on the show so many times.

04:59:02.220 Yeah.

04:59:03.380 And, yeah.

04:59:04.360 And you don't know that he wouldn't eat it?

04:59:08.140 Well, you know, this was like a punishment for Andrew, the pineapple pizza.

04:59:13.600 Uh, he actually, we, he agreed, he agreed off screen to, that he, he, he told me he

04:59:24.020 was like, Brian, we'll do it.

04:59:25.380 We can, fine, we'll do it.

04:59:26.680 Can I, can I tie this last thing off real quick before we get to the super chats?

04:59:30.140 Cause we're like right there.

04:59:31.140 Sure.

04:59:31.420 Right.

04:59:31.860 Okay.

04:59:32.180 Absolutely.

04:59:32.620 So I just, when you left, we had agreed on something.

04:59:35.620 What?

04:59:36.600 Well, yeah, we agreed, but I just want to tie it off with the agreement.

04:59:39.100 Okay.

04:59:39.420 That's why I wanted the agreement.

04:59:41.520 Okay.

04:59:42.500 Are we to assume then that you have a high body count?

04:59:46.220 Are we?

04:59:47.020 Well, it, it doesn't matter.

04:59:48.380 So you should tell us what it is.

04:59:50.260 I have, if it doesn't matter, why would I tell you?

04:59:52.740 Well, because it doesn't matter.

04:59:54.140 No, I, I would think if it mattered, I would tell you.

04:59:57.080 Well, if it doesn't matter, why wouldn't you?

04:59:59.160 Because it doesn't matter.

05:00:00.540 If I would answer any question that you wanted, that didn't matter to me.

05:00:04.860 Uh, no.

05:00:05.260 Like when you go to court and like.

05:00:07.340 Are you in court?

05:00:07.880 When someone's, well, I'm just giving you another example.

05:00:09.840 When someone's asked a question and they're like irrelevant, you know, it doesn't matter.

05:00:13.060 They don't answer.

05:00:15.020 Erroneous.

05:00:15.600 Oh.

05:00:16.300 Erroneous.

05:00:16.740 Yeah.

05:00:17.080 So.

05:00:17.260 So no, I, I don't disclose.

05:00:18.760 You don't, you don't.

05:00:19.540 So it does matter?

05:00:20.620 No, it doesn't.

05:00:21.720 That's why I don't disclose.

05:00:22.780 You don't disclose because of the reputation maybe that comes along with it?

05:00:25.840 No.

05:00:26.640 It has nothing to do with reputation.

05:00:28.080 Then if you're not concerned about reputational damage and it doesn't matter, why not just disclose?

05:00:32.300 If it doesn't matter, why would I?

05:00:33.720 I have no motivation.

05:00:34.900 I mean, I'm sorry, you can keep asking me 10 ways from Sunday, I'm not going to disclose.

05:00:39.280 I'll just ask you this.

05:00:40.120 What's your favorite color?

05:00:42.660 Um, that's a good question.

05:00:44.800 I would say like wine colored, kind of like a purplish pink or a pinkish purple.

05:00:50.700 Did that matter?

05:00:52.520 Yeah.

05:00:52.760 I think what my favorite color is matters, especially if you're like picking out, um,

05:00:58.460 a shirt for me.

05:00:59.280 Did that matter in the context of the debate?

05:01:01.860 I don't know.

05:01:03.040 No, it doesn't matter, right?

05:01:04.440 Okay.

05:01:05.200 So, uh, okay, here's one.

05:01:08.240 Um, do you prefer water in a cup or do you prefer, I don't know, water in a wine glass?

05:01:16.840 Are you getting me water?

05:01:18.100 Sure.

05:01:18.860 Okay.

05:01:19.300 Then I prefer it in a wine glass.

05:01:20.780 I don't have a wine glass.

05:01:22.260 Oh, then I guess it doesn't matter.

05:01:23.800 Oh, okay.

05:01:24.540 So you just want it in a cup?

05:01:27.400 Uh, sure.

05:01:28.360 Okay.

05:01:28.740 If that's what you got.

05:01:29.380 In a cup.

05:01:30.260 So then the preference doesn't really matter?

05:01:33.760 Uh, no.

05:01:34.620 No.

05:01:35.000 Okay, great.

05:01:35.520 Because you're only in a cup.

05:01:36.040 So if you're willing to disclose preferences that don't matter, why not disclose this one?

05:01:39.500 It doesn't matter.

05:01:40.640 It, what reason do I have to?

05:01:42.840 Because it doesn't matter.

05:01:44.440 I would think that would be the reason I don't disclose.

05:01:47.580 That would be the reason you should disclose.

05:01:49.420 No, I think if it mattered, I would disclose, right?

05:01:53.040 Don't you disclose material information?

05:01:55.440 I think it would, if it didn't matter, you would have no trouble disclosing something that

05:02:00.200 didn't matter to you.

05:02:01.080 If I were going to have sex with someone and I had an STD, do you think I should disclose?

05:02:05.460 Yeah.

05:02:06.040 Because it matters?

05:02:07.520 Yeah, sure.

05:02:08.120 Yeah.

05:02:08.660 Yeah.

05:02:08.900 But if somebody asked you if you had an STD, would you say no?

05:02:11.200 If you didn't, even though having sex with him, it wouldn't matter?

05:02:15.040 What?

05:02:15.740 Like, if you didn't have an STD and you had sex with someone, you're not going to ever

05:02:19.640 transmit them in an STD, right?

05:02:21.340 So it doesn't matter.

05:02:23.180 So wouldn't you just disclose to a person you didn't have STDs?

05:02:25.780 Wait, that does matter.

05:02:26.980 Because obviously if I don't disclose, they think that I do.

05:02:30.600 Right.

05:02:31.540 So it matters to them.

05:02:32.820 So then in this case, it does matter for the purpose of something then?

05:02:35.800 It matters to them, right?

05:02:37.120 Yeah.

05:02:37.240 This matters to me.

05:02:38.580 Okay.

05:02:39.140 Well.

05:02:39.480 So disclose it.

05:02:40.560 I'm not.

05:02:41.400 Well.

05:02:41.680 It doesn't matter.

05:02:42.500 Because it doesn't matter?

05:02:43.520 Mm-hmm.

05:02:44.280 I thought you said you only can disclose if it does matter.

05:02:47.440 Yeah.

05:02:47.760 If it mattered, I would.

05:02:48.760 But it doesn't.

05:02:49.500 But it does matter.

05:02:50.260 I want to know.

05:02:50.960 It matters.

05:02:51.340 Well, it matters to you.

05:02:52.240 For the purpose of this conversation, it matters.

05:02:54.700 But I don't think that matters that you think it matters.

05:02:58.360 But you think it matters that the guy for the STD?

05:03:01.040 Well, if I didn't disclose, you know, he's like, do you have an STD?

05:03:05.020 And I'm like, that doesn't matter.

05:03:07.000 What are we doing?

05:03:07.820 Do you want to have sex?

05:03:08.500 It's really strange to me that this thing that just means nothing to you is also a thing

05:03:13.880 that you refuse to disclose.

05:03:15.820 Yeah.

05:03:16.160 That's really weird.

05:03:17.220 It doesn't matter.

05:03:18.280 Why would I disclose?

05:03:19.640 Because it doesn't matter to you.

05:03:22.100 Exactly.

05:03:22.660 So why should it matter to disclose it?

05:03:24.440 That's super weird.

05:03:25.460 It makes no sense.

05:03:26.080 I don't think it's super weird at all.

05:03:27.500 Okay.

05:03:27.960 Well, then.

05:03:28.460 It's just irrelevant.

05:03:29.640 Let me just follow up with this last thing.

05:03:33.760 So can you tell, right, that there is, or do you agree with me that there is reputational

05:03:41.480 damage that comes with women who have a high body count?

05:03:44.580 Yeah.

05:03:45.100 Yeah.

05:03:45.500 You agree with that, right?

05:03:47.220 So does it stand to reason from my perspective that I would think that you weren't disclosing

05:03:52.360 that because it was really high and it would cause you reputational damage?

05:03:58.200 I mean, sure.

05:03:59.240 That could be a possible explanation.

05:04:01.240 I mean, that's a likely one, right?

05:04:04.100 No, I disagree.

05:04:05.300 Well, isn't it more likely than somebody saying it doesn't matter, but I'm not going to tell

05:04:08.840 you anyway?

05:04:11.580 Doesn't that seem like it's a more likely explanation than...

05:04:14.500 No.

05:04:15.200 I won't tell you based on the principle of it doesn't matter.

05:04:18.720 So therefore, I won't, even though it doesn't matter to me at all.

05:04:22.240 I just don't.

05:04:23.180 So I guess when we're talking about why you want the disclosure, why is that?

05:04:28.420 Because I want to see if you're consistent.

05:04:32.080 Well, so this is just for the purposes of the debate?

05:04:35.080 Yeah, that's why it matters.

05:04:36.580 I'm checking your consistency and it's not very consistent.

05:04:39.960 So you're giving me...

05:04:40.720 I mean, I don't think your body count...

05:04:42.440 What are you evaluating with my body count?

05:04:43.640 Well, you're just giving me...

05:04:44.620 You're giving me reason to believe that you're lying to me that...

05:04:47.940 What am I lying about?

05:04:48.820 I'll explain.

05:04:49.540 You're giving me reason to believe that based on the fact that you think that having a high

05:04:53.540 body count causes women reputational damage, that if you really thought that this didn't

05:04:58.240 matter, right, I'd know for sure that you wouldn't be getting any reputational damage by expressing

05:05:04.700 it if you had a very low body count.

05:05:06.520 However, if you did have a very...

05:05:07.900 What do you...

05:05:08.200 Hang on.

05:05:08.800 If you did have a very high body count, you think that that would cause you reputational

05:05:12.540 damage by your own admission.

05:05:14.000 So which is more likely?

05:05:15.260 It seems more likely that you do have one.

05:05:17.040 Sure.

05:05:17.260 But then you would be like implying that I care.

05:05:19.900 The only reason I'm implying that you care is because you won't say it.

05:05:23.820 No.

05:05:24.480 Yeah.

05:05:24.620 That seems to be the implication.

05:05:26.540 I disagree.

05:05:27.680 Well, but the likelihood, the likelihood from my perspective...

05:05:31.180 I mean, you tell me.

05:05:31.660 What is my body count?

05:05:33.220 I have no idea.

05:05:34.100 Yeah.

05:05:34.340 How would I know unless you told me?

05:05:35.860 Exactly.

05:05:36.900 Yeah, I wouldn't know.

05:05:37.860 So wouldn't...

05:05:38.660 I assume it's high.

05:05:39.460 If I just wanted to protect my reputation, wouldn't I just lie and just be like, you know

05:05:44.020 what?

05:05:44.200 You're right.

05:05:44.820 You could, but it is the age of the internet where somebody could say, no, that's not true.

05:05:48.360 I slept with her and another guy's like, and I slept with her too.

05:05:50.620 I mean, you're really putting stock into the fact that my possible previous partners are

05:05:57.780 watching.

05:05:59.000 Well, all it would take is the wrong answer from low to high.

05:06:01.540 I wouldn't say if I were protecting my reputation, I would just lie.

05:06:05.300 So the fact that I'm not disclosing doesn't say that reputation would be my concern.

05:06:09.860 You can get caught in a lie.

05:06:11.460 You can't get caught in a non-disclosure.

05:06:12.000 I think it would be very unlikely for me to be caught.

05:06:15.600 Giving a false body count?

05:06:16.740 But yeah, absolutely.

05:06:18.680 Because I could just be like, they're lying.

05:06:20.160 Okay.

05:06:20.520 Well...

05:06:20.820 Of course he's going to try and say, oh, she's lying.

05:06:22.840 It's low.

05:06:23.440 I don't know that guy.

05:06:24.460 Well, you have children, right?

05:06:25.960 Child.

05:06:26.680 A child.

05:06:27.340 Yes.

05:06:27.680 So at least one.

05:06:29.860 Right?

05:06:30.400 Are we sure?

05:06:31.200 So we know...

05:06:31.880 Immaculate conception or maybe artificial insemination.

05:06:35.060 Right.

05:06:35.300 So we know at least one.

05:06:37.940 Great.

05:06:38.540 Are you okay with admitting that it's at least one?

05:06:40.480 Um...

05:06:41.600 I mean, what does it matter?

05:06:43.320 I mean, clearly, I think you can deduce that.

05:06:45.420 Yeah, right.

05:06:45.900 We can deduce it.

05:06:46.780 Yep.

05:06:47.120 So we can use logic.

05:06:48.660 At least one.

05:06:49.140 So we can use logic to deduce the truth of matter.

05:06:51.480 And if it is the case that it doesn't matter, but you're unwilling to disclose...

05:06:56.720 I...

05:06:57.260 Again, I don't think it supports that it's just a reputation thing, because then I could

05:07:01.220 just lie and be like, you know what?

05:07:02.500 You're right, Andrew.

05:07:02.920 Yeah, but you can get caught in lies.

05:07:03.980 It's two.

05:07:04.440 And that damages your reputation, too.

05:07:06.160 I don't...

05:07:06.440 I could just continue to lie and be like, that guy's lying.

05:07:09.680 He never slept with me.

05:07:10.940 Yes, and then other people could bring proofs, right?

05:07:13.980 I...

05:07:14.460 What?

05:07:15.700 I don't know.

05:07:16.560 Whatever there are.

05:07:17.600 What proof is there?

05:07:18.800 How do I...

05:07:19.220 How would I know?

05:07:19.820 How...

05:07:20.260 Yeah, I don't think there's...

05:07:21.360 I have no idea.

05:07:22.160 It's just very...

05:07:22.640 It's a very strange standard to say...

05:07:24.040 I think it'd be weird.

05:07:24.820 A thing doesn't matter, but I do know that it causes reputational damage if it is high,

05:07:28.740 and I refuse to disclose it, even though it doesn't matter.

05:07:30.600 Correct, yeah.

05:07:30.800 I mean, again, like I said, I think I've told you if I was worried about reputational damage,

05:07:36.360 I would just concede to you and lie.

05:07:37.640 Do you think it stands to reason that if a man wants to know your body count, it's because

05:07:43.640 they think that you have a bad reputation of sleeping with a lot of different men?

05:07:51.000 No, I think there can be multiple reasons that someone would want to know your body count.

05:07:54.800 I think, obviously, like you've indicated, a lot of social prescriptions come with a high

05:08:01.140 body count, but I also think, excuse me, I also think if you've been with someone a long

05:08:08.760 time, it can just be out of curiosity.

05:08:11.140 Sure.

05:08:11.920 Yeah.

05:08:12.580 And do you think that the stigma associated with reputational damage, a man might want

05:08:17.520 to avoid a woman like that so that they don't end up being associated with that woman's

05:08:21.620 bad reputation?

05:08:24.040 Yeah, sure.

05:08:24.840 I don't know.

05:08:25.280 So then it seems like it's a perfectly valid preference to want women who have low body

05:08:28.840 counts.

05:08:29.500 I think it's weird that men kind of evaluate the quality of their partner.

05:08:34.860 Oh, no.

05:08:35.200 Women also evaluate women based on how many sex partners they've had.

05:08:39.080 So when you're, I know you're married.

05:08:42.540 What do you look, you're a virgin.

05:08:44.980 Yeah.

05:08:45.440 Yeah.

05:08:45.680 Virgin.

05:08:46.080 Do you want a romantic relationship?

05:08:49.960 Do I want a romantic?

05:08:52.220 Yes.

05:08:52.940 Yeah.

05:08:53.720 Yeah.

05:08:54.280 Would you want that long term?

05:08:56.720 Long term?

05:08:57.360 Yes.

05:08:58.780 Yes.

05:08:59.620 What would you want from a partner?

05:09:02.720 Virgin.

05:09:04.060 Is that it?

05:09:05.360 Is there any other qualities you would want for a long term partner?

05:09:09.640 No, virgin, like she can be like obese and stuff, but like virgin.

05:09:14.720 Okay.

05:09:14.940 Why don't, why are you dragging me into this?

05:09:17.020 Why are you dragging me into this?

05:09:18.240 I'm just, I'm just, I'm just moderating.

05:09:19.300 That's not fair.

05:09:20.160 You're the closest.

05:09:20.420 It's not fair.

05:09:21.020 It's not fair.

05:09:21.680 He's married.

05:09:22.620 So obviously it doesn't, you know, there's not necessarily an assessment of looking for

05:09:28.180 your next potential partner.

05:09:29.280 Yeah.

05:09:29.740 But, so my point.

05:09:32.240 But let's say my, my, my wife died tomorrow.

05:09:34.660 Okay.

05:09:34.980 Right.

05:09:35.220 What would you want in a partner?

05:09:37.540 I would definitely want a woman with a low body count.

05:09:39.520 Okay.

05:09:39.900 Is there anything else?

05:09:42.280 Oh yeah, sure.

05:09:43.360 All the, uh, like all the normal things that, uh, people would look for.

05:09:47.700 Well, when it was loyal, she was very kind to me.

05:09:50.100 She was kind to children.

05:09:51.240 She was kind to the elderly.

05:09:52.640 So kind.

05:09:53.800 Yeah.

05:09:54.200 Kindness matters to me.

05:09:55.760 Right.

05:09:56.180 But I'm just saying you said kind three different ways.

05:09:58.000 So I got it.

05:09:58.520 Loyal, kind.

05:09:59.220 Loyal, kind.

05:10:01.380 Um, somebody wasn't in, uh, uh, didn't, uh, or wasn't prone to nagging.

05:10:06.520 That would be a big one for me.

05:10:08.400 Prone to nagging.

05:10:09.280 Mm-hmm.

05:10:09.760 Okay.

05:10:10.640 Oh, wait.

05:10:11.140 I'm sorry.

05:10:12.320 I did think of one other thing that I, I do look for is large labia.

05:10:17.100 No knees.

05:10:18.240 Large labia.

05:10:19.000 I, big labia.

05:10:19.940 Uh, so is that, uh, uh, labia minor or labia?

05:10:24.960 Both can be large.

05:10:26.320 Both can be large.

05:10:26.880 Yeah.

05:10:26.960 So out, outies, like the wizard sleeve.

05:10:29.260 I'm, I know this, I actually do prefer large labia.

05:10:34.820 Are your only conditions like based on their appearance?

05:10:38.320 No, there's other conditions.

05:10:39.440 Like she has to bow to me.

05:10:42.120 Not.

05:10:42.780 Okay.

05:10:43.080 You're done.

05:10:43.580 No, literally.

05:10:44.360 No, literally.

05:10:44.980 So anyway, these are, these are like.

05:10:46.180 Not figuratively.

05:10:46.600 These are like standard qualities that I think are pretty shared across.

05:10:51.400 Sure.

05:10:51.640 So, I mean, we just named two though.

05:10:52.900 Loyal kind.

05:10:53.980 Um, you said no nagging.

05:10:55.260 Yeah.

05:10:55.420 No nagging.

05:10:56.360 Do you can.

05:10:56.960 Make my life easier.

05:10:58.280 Do you, uh, view like communication as nagging or.

05:11:02.420 Yeah.

05:11:03.620 You think being communicative with your partner.

05:11:05.760 Yeah.

05:11:05.940 She needs to understand what my needs are.

05:11:09.840 Okay.

05:11:10.420 Yeah.

05:11:10.740 That, um, okay.

05:11:12.040 I guess I'm not sure what nagging is.

05:11:13.520 So yeah, I think we.

05:11:14.760 You don't know what nagging is really?

05:11:17.540 Um.

05:11:18.040 Wasn't I just nagging you to give me your body count?

05:11:19.900 Oh yeah.

05:11:20.240 You definitely were.

05:11:21.220 So, so then we do know what nagging is.

05:11:23.820 I guess I'm trying to understand nagging to what your degree.

05:11:26.900 Like if she asked you, will you take the garbage out?

05:11:28.760 And you're like, yeah, I will.

05:11:29.840 And then you don't.

05:11:31.040 Yeah.

05:11:31.160 Shit like that.

05:11:32.060 Yeah.

05:11:32.440 I don't want to, I don't want nagging.

05:11:33.680 No nagging.

05:11:34.500 Yeah.

05:11:34.760 I got it.

05:11:35.520 We can come right back to it, but there's a couple, there's so many messages coming through

05:11:39.140 that.

05:11:39.500 Like basically done.

05:11:40.520 And then we're just done.

05:11:43.500 Let me let two come in.

05:11:44.900 Okay.

05:11:45.140 And then we'll do the rest just because I don't want them to fall off.

05:11:47.580 Okay.

05:11:48.240 Because Streamlabs does that.

05:11:50.960 Daddy's models donated $100.

05:11:52.760 He sent it in kind of twice, I guess.

05:11:54.800 Myron messaged you to do a podcast together.

05:11:57.360 Pretty sure he spoke to the master debater about it as well.

05:12:01.460 That collab is what we've been waiting for.

05:12:04.680 BTW, Karen, good luck.

05:12:06.820 You've lost horribly.

05:12:07.800 Now you got me the first time on your username.

05:12:10.300 I'm not going to refer to you.

05:12:11.420 I'm going to call you D model.

05:12:14.700 Still bad.

05:12:16.220 Model, thank you for the message.

05:12:18.500 I do appreciate it.

05:12:19.700 Thank you.

05:12:19.940 Oh, got Lucas coming in.

05:12:21.140 Lucas donated $100.

05:12:23.500 Woman.

05:12:23.760 You know nothing, ABT, the scientific research doc.

05:12:27.100 There is not one study out there, and there are many that does not indicate a strong and

05:12:31.580 I mean really strong male preference towards female chastity.

05:12:35.620 Oh.

05:12:36.980 Do you want to respond to?

05:12:38.080 I'm sorry.

05:12:38.620 What does it say?

05:12:39.700 Women, you know nothing about the scientific research.

05:12:41.740 There is not one study out there that does not indicate a strong preference.

05:12:45.700 And I mean really strong male preference towards female chastity.

05:12:48.420 I think that would just be culture dependent.

05:12:52.020 And why is it a cross culture?

05:12:54.740 Why is what a cross culture?

05:12:56.160 The fact that men value youth and chastity.

05:13:00.800 Are you referring to like the evolutionary psychology reference?

05:13:04.760 I'm just referring to the demonstration of basically everywhere this is asked by pollsters and by various researchers.

05:13:15.000 If you prefer women of X age, most men choose around the same ages for women that they find the most attractive.

05:13:22.400 Yeah.

05:13:22.580 And the same thing for men looking for chastity that seems to be across the board they seem to prefer.

05:13:29.740 What is the age?

05:13:30.900 What?

05:13:31.380 What is the age most men choose?

05:13:33.160 Is this regardless of their age?

05:13:35.460 Yeah.

05:13:36.180 What is the age?

05:13:36.880 I think it's like 18 to 26 or 24.

05:13:40.040 Okay.

05:13:40.440 Yeah.

05:13:41.240 They prefer it.

05:13:42.440 And do women have that similar?

05:13:44.180 No.

05:13:44.600 No.

05:13:45.220 No.

05:13:45.740 They tend to want men around their same age.

05:13:50.440 Right?

05:13:51.020 And find them like same attractive.

05:13:52.580 So I think there would be a hard argument to say that this is just an innate determination and not some form of social conditioning.

05:13:59.320 Across all cultures.

05:14:00.660 Correct.

05:14:03.160 That's truly baffling to me.

05:14:05.100 Like these cultures that have very little to do with each other still have preference towards chastity.

05:14:12.160 What would you base that on as far as social conditioning?

05:14:15.580 I mean, I just, again, we don't know what cultures, number one, that they are evaluating.

05:14:20.460 But I also think that there's like the global idea that paternity is really important.

05:14:26.580 Where previous to like patriarchal constructions, when it was more egalitarian, you know, not knowing paternity wasn't necessarily a big deal.

05:14:37.140 Because I could even argue that in terms of community survival, that not knowing paternity could be a beneficial.

05:14:44.240 Because then men that are engaged with women, now they have an investment in obviously the offspring living and surviving.

05:14:51.140 And she would have more access to resources from those different men.

05:14:54.900 This seems like it would be offset very quickly by just saying a man's primary edict and objective evolutionarily would be to pass on his genetics.

05:15:03.500 And he would need to know that his genetics were actually passed on, not another man's in his stead.

05:15:08.280 So...

05:15:08.720 I don't necessarily think that that's like just an innate thing.

05:15:11.540 That's the primary edict of all living organisms is to pass on their genetics.

05:15:16.320 No, to pass on their genetics.

05:15:17.380 I think it's also survival.

05:15:18.820 No, the primary edict is to pass on your genetics.

05:15:21.020 If passing on your genetics is it, then...

05:15:22.320 That's the primary urge and drive.

05:15:24.880 Then what's the point of marriage or relationships?

05:15:28.360 Well, okay, you can have factors past this that human beings value.

05:15:33.040 But the primary edict from an evolutionary standpoint, the prime directive...

05:15:38.320 Then I would see men wanting not relationships at all, just be engaging with multiple women.

05:15:46.540 A lot of them do.

05:15:48.040 And then having no investment.

05:15:49.600 A lot of them do that.

05:15:50.520 Do you think men should have investment in child rearing?

05:15:54.160 Yes, but this does not contend with my question before you change it.

05:15:58.140 Right?

05:15:58.620 It's not the primary edict of the evolutionary dictate to pass your genetics on.

05:16:03.040 No, I would say survival.

05:16:05.420 Well, what's the point, purpose of survival?

05:16:09.480 What's the point of survival?

05:16:11.740 That your community continues.

05:16:13.780 Yeah, it continues through what?

05:16:16.240 Passing on your genetics.

05:16:18.280 Right, but even if you don't pass on your genetics, your community can still continue.

05:16:22.560 It's not going to continue without people passing on their genetics or living organisms passing on their genetics.

05:16:27.260 Right, but not all people need to pass on their genetics.

05:16:30.100 Yes, but all people do need to have the drive to pass on their genetics.

05:16:35.560 Again, you can have the drive, but even if you haven't completed it.

05:16:39.980 Yeah, but you still have the drive to complete it.

05:16:42.140 Even when you have completed it.

05:16:44.080 You still have the drive to continue to complete it.

05:16:45.980 Right.

05:16:46.280 So, again, I don't see why paternity would need to be certain.

05:16:50.680 The whole point of you getting horny and a man getting horny is to pass on their genetics.

05:16:55.960 Otherwise, there would be no reason to get horny.

05:16:57.720 Well, then if he's done that, then why wouldn't...

05:17:00.800 He can continue to do it.

05:17:03.180 I understand that.

05:17:03.540 So, he wants to continue to pass his genetics on over and over and over again.

05:17:06.900 One vessel can accommodate this.

05:17:09.380 It doesn't need...

05:17:09.960 It doesn't take 50 vessels.

05:17:12.000 I agree, but obviously, even if you pass on your genetics and then the children don't survive and your community doesn't survive, then you haven't achieved the goal.

05:17:19.820 Yeah, maybe not, but that doesn't mean that your primary edict is not to do that.

05:17:23.900 But, again, I don't think that...

05:17:26.900 You're just descriptively saying, but what if it doesn't happen?

05:17:29.340 And I'm like, yeah, then it doesn't happen.

05:17:30.840 But still the motivation, the primary edict is to pass on genetics.

05:17:34.500 But obviously, too, it's also for the society to continue.

05:17:38.340 The only way it continues is by passing on genetics.

05:17:40.940 I agree.

05:17:42.380 But obviously, if a woman is sleeping with multiple men and then there are children, all of those men could have a potential investment in that child's survival.

05:17:52.640 No, they have no way to verify they've passed on their genetics.

05:17:55.240 I know, but they would have the potential investment in...

05:17:58.160 Yeah, listen.

05:17:59.720 So, Brian here, his ultimate drive, let's say, is to pass on his genetics and mine.

05:18:04.720 Okay?

05:18:05.560 So, let's say that Brian...

05:18:07.320 Wait, I want to pass yours on?

05:18:08.800 Yeah.

05:18:09.100 Well, I want to pass mine on.

05:18:10.600 He wants to pass this on, right?

05:18:11.780 Okay.

05:18:12.220 So, he ends up with some chick with one of his friends and they bang her.

05:18:16.080 Okay?

05:18:16.800 I'm sorry.

05:18:17.380 He ends up with...

05:18:18.700 With some chick with one of his friends.

05:18:20.540 Him and one of his friends bang the same chick.

05:18:21.900 So, there's a third guy.

05:18:22.760 Okay.

05:18:23.200 Not a third guy.

05:18:23.820 A second guy.

05:18:24.360 Why can't I bang his chick?

05:18:25.000 Well, you're there too.

05:18:25.720 Why does she have to bang my chick?

05:18:27.500 I'm not there.

05:18:28.280 Listen, I'm drawing a comparison.

05:18:29.900 Okay.

05:18:30.200 I'm sorry.

05:18:31.120 I'm with one woman.

05:18:32.700 He has screwed one woman and this other guy has screwed one woman, right?

05:18:36.640 I'm just with one woman.

05:18:37.920 One woman's with me.

05:18:39.000 I'm assured my genetics are passed on.

05:18:41.460 They are not assured their genetics are passed on.

05:18:43.860 I mean, you're not assured...

05:18:45.020 Hang on.

05:18:45.040 They're not assured their genetics are passed on.

05:18:47.340 If the primary edicts pass your genetics on, it's not to, oh, I don't share with another

05:18:52.120 guy and hope your genetics get passed on.

05:18:53.880 That's not how that works.

05:18:54.540 Well, I mean, obviously, if your child dies, then your genes are not passed on.

05:18:58.700 Then you try to have another child because it's your primary edict.

05:19:01.160 I mean, I think ultimately primary edicts would be for survival of yourself, but no, I don't

05:19:10.880 think necessarily there's an edict of legacy, if that's what you're talking about.

05:19:15.320 Literally, every living organism's primary goal from an evolutionary standpoint has to

05:19:20.540 be to pass on their genetic material.

05:19:24.160 Otherwise, survival of the fittest doesn't work.

05:19:25.840 You can't be the fittest species if you can't reproduce.

05:19:29.440 Well, also, but if you can't survive based on certain conditions.

05:19:33.400 But you can't survive because you can't reproduce.

05:19:36.660 I agree that reproduction is an aspect of it.

05:19:40.160 But even if you do reproduce, it doesn't mean that there'll be the necessary conditions

05:19:44.680 for your genes to continue if your genes don't survive.

05:19:48.940 Yeah, but that's a descriptor, right?

05:19:51.240 That's not a descriptor which contends with the primary edict being reproduction.

05:19:54.920 It does, because when evaluating a mate, it not only comes into, obviously, their capacity

05:19:59.520 for fertility, but their capacity to care for the young.

05:20:02.460 We aren't just, like, we are social creatures.

05:20:05.920 And so there are social aspects that come into the aspects of mating.

05:20:10.360 And I would argue, too, that prior to other civilizations, that this was a common method,

05:20:17.140 that women had multiple partners, so that multiple children could be half, so that the

05:20:22.620 community and society could continue.

05:20:24.480 There are pagan tribes where this happened.

05:20:27.120 I agree, right?

05:20:28.320 But for the most part, it didn't.

05:20:29.940 There are some...

05:20:30.980 I would disagree with that.

05:20:32.160 Nope, there's...

05:20:32.640 Well, look, that's ahistorical.

05:20:34.800 I think your position...

05:20:35.860 I'm okay right now.

05:20:36.580 I think your position's ahistorical.

05:20:38.020 No, it's not.

05:20:38.920 It's ahistorical to say...

05:20:40.520 Men may have had multiple women.

05:20:42.460 Women did not generally have multiple men.

05:20:44.260 They were not in a position to have multiple men.

05:20:45.960 And from what time period are we discussing?

05:20:48.300 I mean, this all of human history.

05:20:49.980 I mean, no, I would say for 50,000, 25,000 years, no, there were more polyamorous relationships.

05:20:58.200 Not between...

05:20:58.500 Yes, between men and multiple women, not women and multiple men.

05:21:02.080 Well, that's polygymy.

05:21:02.860 I'm talking about polygymess.

05:21:04.540 No.

05:21:04.740 Where women have as much multiple partners.

05:21:06.400 That's nonsense.

05:21:07.580 Brothers would marry sisters.

05:21:09.060 They would switch partners, so on and so forth.

05:21:11.280 I mean, I even told you about the example is Rome, where they would have wedding night orgies

05:21:15.400 just to assume that their family line is continuing.

05:21:17.740 When it came to Rome, men were in the position of authority over wives, right?

05:21:22.960 And they generally married virgins.

05:21:25.160 They would have sex, that's true, with women who are not virgins, and even with men.

05:21:30.220 It was a common...

05:21:30.740 But there was still very much...

05:21:33.100 It was a traditional practice that also there would be multiple men, even.

05:21:37.640 That doesn't guarantee your paternal line.

05:21:40.080 Yeah, that's just masturbation.

05:21:42.480 No, I'm not saying with each other.

05:21:43.880 Oh, okay.

05:21:44.360 I'm saying with the wife.

05:21:45.640 Like, there would be wedding night orgies.

05:21:47.520 Yes.

05:21:48.280 No.

05:21:48.880 That's ahistorical, too.

05:21:50.060 It's not ahistorical.

05:21:50.860 Romans didn't tell people to come over and fuck their wives.

05:21:53.860 That's very much ahistorical.

05:21:55.460 I mean, I can give you a source if you are.

05:21:56.420 It's super rare that that happened.

05:21:58.320 What are you talking about?

05:21:59.120 I know.

05:21:59.500 Especially in the Roman Empire.

05:22:00.880 So, it's insane.

05:22:01.960 No, they didn't.

05:22:02.720 That's totally ahistorical.

05:22:04.260 I'd be happy to give you the source once you give me the period.

05:22:06.800 You can give me the source.

05:22:08.320 I'm telling you, it's totally ahistorical that women had multiple men.

05:22:16.140 Yes, men had multiple women.

05:22:18.020 That's true.

05:22:18.720 But it's ahistorical.

05:22:19.600 You know why, too?

05:22:20.760 Women can only get pregnant by one guy at a time.

05:22:23.760 Men, on the other hand, they can impregnate a hundred women as many times as they...

05:22:28.620 You know what I mean?

05:22:29.260 Men, we have to determine the fact of survivalship.

05:22:32.440 Like, if a man impregnates a hundred women and...

05:22:36.440 So, he's passing his genes on?

05:22:37.640 You know, these hundred women don't have community or support when it comes to resources and caring

05:22:44.840 for the child, then the children are going to die.

05:22:48.020 And then what?

05:22:49.360 Yeah, but this is baked into the pie.

05:22:51.460 That would be a lesson for monogamy, right?

05:22:54.760 No, I think that's a lesson in community.

05:22:56.260 Is it ensuring the most amount of resources possible by having one man responsible for

05:23:00.400 the child?

05:23:01.820 No.

05:23:02.400 Obviously, you would ensure more aspects, more resources if multiple men were responsible

05:23:07.760 for the child.

05:23:08.160 If they could reinforce, like, oh, I have an uncle.

05:23:10.600 That's helpful.

05:23:11.400 They're somewhat responsible for my child, I guess.

05:23:14.280 They're part of my family.

05:23:15.220 But having one man who gathers resources specifically for that child and that woman seems like a

05:23:20.540 way more effective dating or strategy.

05:23:22.680 Yeah.

05:23:22.840 It would be, no, communal gathering and communal ownership would be the most effective strategy.

05:23:27.860 You can have communal gathering, communal ownership where every man still owns the child

05:23:32.320 and is the primary caregiver for that child who's his.

05:23:35.480 I agree.

05:23:36.800 I agree.

05:23:37.360 And that would be a way better system.

05:23:38.860 You can also have men who are potentially, are invested in, obviously, the children growing

05:23:45.100 and the community surviving.

05:23:47.920 Okay.

05:23:48.500 There's no need for paternity certainty.

05:23:50.040 Which thing makes more sense?

05:23:51.900 We have a community, but I'm responsible for my offspring.

05:23:55.600 If paternity certainty was such, like, a valuable thing, why is it not easily detected?

05:24:05.180 Like, you know, when it comes to maternity, oh, excuse me, obviously, we always know who

05:24:10.180 the mother is.

05:24:10.960 But you don't always know who the father is.

05:24:12.300 Correct.

05:24:13.240 So, it doesn't really matter.

05:24:15.180 Yeah.

05:24:15.420 So, that, like, completely blows your own point out.

05:24:17.920 Makes no sense.

05:24:18.500 I don't think so.

05:24:18.900 You're not actually assured yourself paternity.

05:24:21.800 Correct.

05:24:22.260 Neither are men.

05:24:24.300 Correct.

05:24:24.700 Yeah.

05:24:25.140 So, the only thing you know is that it came from you.

05:24:27.840 So, then community.

05:24:28.640 Mm-hmm.

05:24:29.020 Community resources.

05:24:30.440 And, obviously, having multiple people invest in the outcome of the offspring would be the

05:24:37.420 most successful method.

05:24:38.660 Multiple people will still invest in the outcome of the offspring just by being family to the

05:24:42.720 offspring, even if they are not directly responsible for the offspring, meaning they

05:24:46.740 did not reproduce the offspring.

05:24:48.760 Okay.

05:24:49.000 So, you have uncles and aunts and brothers and sisters and cousins and whatever.

05:24:53.580 I mean, there are a lot of indigenous tribes that had the same philosophy.

05:24:56.440 Yeah, right.

05:24:56.940 That, you know, the children belong to everybody.

05:24:59.160 Men don't...

05:24:59.400 Men don't...

05:24:59.440 Men don't...

05:24:59.460 Men don't want to share their women.

05:25:02.320 I mean...

05:25:02.640 I mean...

05:25:02.960 Again, it depends on the culture.

05:25:04.300 There were many indigenous tribes who children belong to everybody.

05:25:08.440 I forget...

05:25:08.840 Even Native American tribes didn't operate this way.

05:25:11.200 I forget...

05:25:11.480 There are Native American tribes who did operate this way.

05:25:13.900 Some, but it's rare.

05:25:15.060 And by the way, looking at an example of where polygamy could happen, it's still an A...

05:25:20.880 It's completely an ahistoric standard to say that because polygamy did happen, that it

05:25:27.020 was common across all cultures.

05:25:29.040 It was not.

05:25:30.160 Yeah.

05:25:30.460 It was not the case.

05:25:31.480 It was.

05:25:31.960 No, it wasn't.

05:25:32.760 I mean, what time period are you talking about?

05:25:34.220 I guess you're talking about all of human history.

05:25:35.820 Yes, all of human history.

05:25:36.980 I mean, I don't know how we can go back and forth saying one's ahistorical, you're ahistorical,

05:25:41.400 you're ahistorical.

05:25:42.120 Like, it would have essentially just come down to sources.

05:25:44.680 Yeah.

05:25:44.920 We would just have to prove our sources.

05:25:46.480 Yeah.

05:25:46.980 Yeah.

05:25:47.460 So in this case, you're going to come up with sources that give us direct evidence that

05:25:51.020 25,000 years ago, women were mostly polygamous?

05:25:54.620 Really?

05:25:56.300 Yeah.

05:25:56.800 That paternity, that male paternity was not at the center of society, that it didn't matter

05:26:04.800 because the children were communal.

05:26:07.560 So it was matrilineal?

05:26:10.240 Yes.

05:26:10.780 Instead of patrilineal?

05:26:11.880 Correct.

05:26:12.120 Yeah, it's totally ahistorical.

05:26:13.460 Okay.

05:26:13.760 I'm fine with that.

05:26:14.940 Okay.

05:26:16.400 Okay.

05:26:18.440 Shoot.

05:26:18.960 A couple fell off here, so I'm going to have to find another way to pull these up, but I'm

05:26:23.760 going to let some of the chats come through.

05:26:27.640 Moonlight donated $100.

05:26:29.560 Hi, Rachel and Andrew, THX, for letting me know details about her sex life.

05:26:35.700 Been wandering for years, and it's finally being addressed.

05:26:39.300 I can now rest easy, but I don't think he'll ever fall asleep around Yarl.

05:26:45.600 Yo, Moonlight, thank you very much, man.

05:26:48.800 Appreciate the message.

05:26:51.860 We have a bunch more coming through, so I'm going to let them come through.

05:26:56.300 Remember, man, donated $69.

05:27:02.140 I swear, after listening to this, I think she justifies skillfully an eight-month app.

05:27:08.080 Maybe her app.

05:27:09.600 Hey, if moms eat the placenta, did she make ours into a stew or a drink for Bloody Mary?

05:27:19.760 We have some more.

05:27:21.440 You guys can respond to these, by the way.

05:27:22.860 We have Justin Martens.

05:27:24.000 Thank you, man.

05:27:24.360 Justin Martens donated $69.

05:27:27.580 Andrew's obfuscating from the pizza by engaging in the debate.

05:27:31.420 If you don't eat the pizza, you lose.

05:27:34.200 I'll take the L.

05:27:39.340 Shoot, I don't, yeah, unfortunately some fell off.

05:27:42.640 I'm going to see if I can get them back, though.

05:27:44.900 One moment, guys.

05:27:46.440 We have, they'll be red regardless, but they might not pop up on screen.

05:27:50.200 Four underscore-eyed underscore-clown underscore-goblin donated $69.

05:27:56.760 Everything she says slave master style privileges her gender.

05:28:01.120 Telling you you're not allowed to be grossed out by promiscuity, but it's okay to get the icky for guy so much as smiles at you wrong.

05:28:09.420 I mean, I never made that claim.

05:28:11.240 Okay, we have, let's see here.

05:28:15.340 We have membered coming in again.

05:28:17.740 Oh.

05:28:18.840 Should we get a crystal?

05:28:19.480 Membered, man donated $69.

05:28:22.180 Blake, can you give us a crystal, please?

05:28:25.080 Just the crystals over there.

05:28:26.680 The crystals was quite the controversy before the podcast started.

05:28:30.300 Give her the crystals, please.

05:28:33.480 Just place them on the table right, right.

05:28:35.940 Just place them right there.

05:28:37.340 Thank you.

05:28:38.620 Yep.

05:28:40.640 Okay.

05:28:43.180 What are we doing?

05:28:45.080 I'm not sure, really.

05:28:46.420 Okay.

05:28:47.480 He did bring up crystals, though.

05:28:49.320 He did.

05:28:50.040 It was quite the controversy.

05:28:50.860 Which one is your favorite?

05:28:52.280 The green one?

05:28:54.240 I mean, it would just be.

05:28:55.080 You have to be gentle.

05:28:55.820 You have to be really gentle with the crystals.

05:28:57.760 Oh, sorry.

05:28:58.180 You were a bit, that was a bit much.

05:28:59.920 It would just be color preference.

05:29:01.280 Oh, okay.

05:29:01.560 I would like the green one.

05:29:02.560 Okay, cool.

05:29:04.420 All right.

05:29:05.000 Thank you, Birdman.

05:29:06.480 We have Lucas coming in here.

05:29:07.960 Thank you, man.

05:29:08.920 Lucas donated $100.

05:29:11.360 We do know what cultures were studied.

05:29:14.280 From tribes in the Amazon to tribes in Papua New Guinea.

05:29:18.140 Also, it's not just survival dot.

05:29:20.580 It's both natural selection, survival, and sexual selection, reproduction.

05:29:27.700 Okay.

05:29:29.300 Nice.

05:29:30.220 Nice.

05:29:31.140 All right.

05:29:31.700 We got a few more coming in.

05:29:33.420 There's just usually a bit of a pause.

05:29:35.800 We have Lulu Lou, and then, oh, Flynn thinks I gifted tier one.

05:29:42.120 Lulu Lou donated $69.

05:29:44.760 This girl has an inability to concede.

05:29:47.720 Every time you get close to cornering her with logic, she starts to ask you to define

05:29:52.560 terms as a distraction technique, lol.

05:29:55.440 When she can't argue, she detracts.

05:29:58.120 I mean, I think there's things I've conceded.

05:30:01.400 Yeah.

05:30:01.880 Okay.

05:30:02.080 But she also, like, there's only so much you can do when people bite these kinds of bullets.

05:30:08.500 You're just like, okay.

05:30:09.540 Oh.

05:30:09.780 I don't know where you go with that.

05:30:12.000 Graffito tagged men evolved to spread genes, maximizing offspring.

05:30:16.060 Women seek long-term support to ensure child survival.

05:30:19.020 Marriage balances this, giving men paternity, certainty, and women stability for raising kids.

05:30:23.900 Makes sense.

05:30:25.400 That's a way better strategy, or seems like a way better survival strategy.

05:30:29.340 One sec here.

05:30:30.300 I mean, do you think, if we're talking just that marriage is essentially what determines,

05:30:36.900 obviously, then that fraction would be separated from the community.

05:30:40.600 Why?

05:30:42.360 Because that's the foundation, right?

05:30:46.040 Yeah.

05:30:46.340 Why would they be separated from the community?

05:30:48.920 Well, because that's, what else do you need?

05:30:51.880 Well, I mean, you still need support.

05:30:54.340 Yeah, exactly.

05:30:55.100 So it wouldn't be marriage that would determine the...

05:30:57.720 He didn't say marriage.

05:30:58.540 He said monogamy.

05:30:59.080 They did, and they said marriage.

05:31:00.300 I thought he said monogamy.

05:31:02.220 What did he say?

05:31:03.660 I'm not sure, to be honest.

05:31:04.940 Yeah, I mean, that evolved to marriage, yeah.

05:31:06.880 But I thought he said monogamy.

05:31:08.900 Maybe I'm wrong.

05:31:09.840 But in any case, it doesn't matter.

05:31:12.060 His point is correct.

05:31:13.460 It makes way more sense for a woman, for a resource perspective, to have a man who specifically

05:31:19.440 guards her and that offspring, if he's always unsure of the offspring, what's his incentive

05:31:23.520 to guard her?

05:31:24.420 We don't look for protection from one individual.

05:31:26.540 We look for protection from community.

05:31:29.240 Yeah.

05:31:29.540 Okay.

05:31:29.980 So the thing is, is you get that community through this single person giving you this

05:31:38.020 offspring.

05:31:38.900 I disagree.

05:31:39.840 I think there are a lot of communities where even children are viewed as not even necessarily

05:31:46.640 just the mother's children, but other women within that community are also just as responsible

05:31:50.820 for instilling values and raising the children.

05:31:52.940 Well, help me out here.

05:31:53.700 Do you think it would be better than if women could just like communally had sex with men

05:31:59.040 and men were not assured of paternity?

05:32:03.100 I mean, yeah, that's definitely a possible outcome.

05:32:05.420 I don't like to necessarily give a sexual or sexual or relationship prescriptions.

05:32:11.460 I think everyone has...

05:32:12.900 Do you think it would be better though?

05:32:14.400 Better in what metric?

05:32:15.680 If men were not able to determine paternity and women just had sex with whatever men that

05:32:23.540 they wanted to, but they couldn't assure paternity.

05:32:26.000 Do you think that's better?

05:32:27.700 A better outcome than knowing who the father is in terms of survival?

05:32:32.720 Sure.

05:32:33.200 So, then you should prescribe that for women, right?

05:32:38.560 Yeah.

05:32:39.280 Yeah, I do think when we...

05:32:41.620 So, you want women to be whores, basically.

05:32:44.640 Again, I think, like, I don't agree with the term that you used.

05:32:50.540 Well, you want them to fuck a bunch of men so that they're not assured of paternity?

05:32:53.720 No, I even said that that's not my position.

05:32:59.440 No, you just said it was your position.

05:33:01.780 No, I think when we talk about, like, the idea of family and community, it doesn't have

05:33:06.140 to be this nuclear aspect with certain people who are biologically related wearing the domineering

05:33:12.520 hats.

05:33:13.180 I think we can look at it through more of a communal.

05:33:15.920 I forget what country it is.

05:33:17.540 I can look it up if you want.

05:33:19.340 There was one woman who had nine children and she ended up giving two to one of her infertile

05:33:23.900 friends.

05:33:24.980 And they asked, like, are you upset with that?

05:33:27.600 Are your children upset with that?

05:33:28.620 And they're like, no, we both love the children.

05:33:30.800 That's anecdotal though.

05:33:32.500 It's just an example though of, like, how community.

05:33:35.140 But if you say it's a better survival mechanism for women to do this, so you would prescribe

05:33:39.440 that women do do this, you can't actually tell them not to be sluts because, and here's

05:33:43.860 why.

05:33:44.300 I would say that if we look at certain reproductive strategies in terms of society, that female

05:33:50.240 bonding leads to really great outcomes of less infanticide and longer child lifespan or

05:33:59.860 more success for child lifespan.

05:34:01.220 Yeah.

05:34:01.560 But for a man not to be assured of paternity, the woman would have to be sleeping with multiple

05:34:06.760 men.

05:34:08.520 Okay.

05:34:09.480 I mean, or he could just assume that.

05:34:11.140 So then it's actually a bad survival strategy for women or better survival strategy for women.

05:34:16.160 Right.

05:34:16.820 I, from your perspective for the woman, I don't know why we can't have like, um, if people

05:34:22.920 want to be in monogamous relationships, I don't think that's not what we're talking about,

05:34:27.160 about whether or not you think that men and women can be in any type of relationship.

05:34:31.300 We're asking about better, worse, as far as outcomes go.

05:34:34.780 And so if it's a better outcome, I would think you would prescribe the better outcome.

05:34:39.540 If it's a better survival strategy for women to sleep with multiple men and not, then the

05:34:46.000 man not be assured of the paternity of the child as the better survival outcome for the

05:34:49.640 woman, then why wouldn't you prescribe that for women?

05:34:51.760 You would, right?

05:34:53.580 Um, uh, yeah, I, I do think that would yield, um, better outcomes.

05:34:58.680 If we were less, uh, nuclear and more communal, essentially individualistic and more communal.

05:35:04.580 So then you're prescribing that women sleeping with multiple men and then hiding the paternity

05:35:11.060 of, I mean, it's not necessarily hiding.

05:35:13.460 Well, yeah, you just don't know.

05:35:14.660 Right.

05:35:14.980 So you can't lie about what you don't know.

05:35:17.080 Right.

05:35:17.460 And obviously, um, I think, uh, when it comes to like partnership, um, people do find, uh,

05:35:25.760 love and instability, uh, with, with multiple people.

05:35:31.240 And do you think that a man who like, I don't know, for instance, me, I adore my kids.

05:35:37.320 Like I love them to death.

05:35:39.220 Um, wouldn't that take that away from me?

05:35:42.160 Because now I would not even be sure if they were mine.

05:35:45.440 I mean, uh, forgive me.

05:35:48.100 They're, they're not yours.

05:35:48.860 Are they?

05:35:49.300 No, they are mine.

05:35:51.040 Biologically.

05:35:51.540 Yeah.

05:35:51.740 I have biological children.

05:35:53.440 Yes.

05:35:54.140 Um, so I'm sorry.

05:35:55.960 You were misinformed, weren't you?

05:35:58.260 By trolls.

05:35:59.160 But anyway, go ahead.

05:36:00.300 No, I'm sorry.

05:36:01.040 Yes, I have stepchildren and biological children.

05:36:02.560 So do you feel that your stepchildren aren't your children?

05:36:05.100 No, I still love them and adore them.

05:36:07.560 So I'm sorry, they're not your children or they are?

05:36:10.020 They are, but there's still a different relationship.

05:36:12.040 Okay, so I mean, you're.

05:36:12.520 There's a different relationship.

05:36:14.220 You're doing it yourself.

05:36:15.180 I mean.

05:36:15.320 No, I'm not.

05:36:15.880 I just told you there's a.

05:36:17.040 You are participating in the child rearing.

05:36:17.820 Will you stop?

05:36:18.360 Of children that aren't yours.

05:36:19.080 This is incorrect.

05:36:20.260 Like biologically.

05:36:20.760 Yeah, no, that's incorrect.

05:36:22.460 So there's a distinction in biological versus stepchildren.

05:36:27.440 Yes, there is a distinction there.

05:36:29.860 I mean, for you, sure.

05:36:32.280 Yeah, for everybody.

05:36:34.560 There, I mean, we wouldn't even have a classification if there was no distinction.

05:36:37.540 Doesn't mean I don't love them.

05:36:39.200 Um, so are you just talking a distinction in terms of biological distinction or are you

05:36:43.320 talking about how you love and care for them?

05:36:45.040 Yeah, I'm glad that I know who each child's father is or is not, including, uh, my offspring.

05:36:52.220 Yeah.

05:36:52.420 I, I'm wondering though, do you love and care for your stepchildren?

05:36:56.100 Yes, of course.

05:36:56.500 Different than your children.

05:36:57.060 Oh, okay.

05:36:57.800 Yes, of course I love and don't know.

05:36:59.820 You didn't finish answering the question before I was saying yes.

05:37:01.940 I know I never made a distinction in how I treated them.

05:37:04.980 Okay.

05:37:05.300 But you can't make a distinction in your heart for who you adore or don't adore, right?

05:37:10.180 So, yeah.

05:37:11.020 So, for instance, wouldn't you agree that if you were raising, um, like, I don't know,

05:37:17.060 a child that you, you came in contact with, with by the time they were six or seven, for

05:37:21.340 instance, right, that it's going to be a different form of relationship than the child

05:37:24.620 that came out of your womb?

05:37:26.200 Uh, yeah, but if I, I think that just necessarily has to do with timing and not, um, the fact

05:37:32.780 that I'm biologically related to them.

05:37:35.300 Um, well, but if you were biologically related to them, the timing would be fine, right?

05:37:42.000 Uh, no, I think I would have the same, like, let's, let's just say, for example, um, that,

05:37:46.320 you know, I, I gave birth and then for whatever reason, you know, the child was raised by someone

05:37:50.540 else and I got them back at six or seven.

05:37:52.080 I would say that the experience would be very similar if I got a child that was not biologically.

05:37:56.500 It's similar, but it's not the same.

05:37:58.440 I, I think it would be the same.

05:37:59.960 I don't think I could tell.

05:38:00.840 You just said that it wouldn't be the same and now you're saying it would be the same.

05:38:04.040 What do you mean?

05:38:04.640 I'm talking about, um, a biological child that I raised from birth versus a child that

05:38:11.560 I raised from the age of six.

05:38:13.280 Yeah.

05:38:13.460 It's not the biological component that makes it different.

05:38:15.900 It's the time in which I entered their life.

05:38:19.240 Yeah.

05:38:19.680 Okay.

05:38:19.960 So, and then if they're biologically were yours, you would have entered their life from

05:38:23.780 the beginning, right?

05:38:24.800 But I just gave a hypothetical to where if I, let's say I did give birth and then for whatever

05:38:29.360 reason I was separated from that child's and then that child came back at six or seven,

05:38:33.440 I don't see any meaningful delineation.

05:38:35.180 How do you know?

05:38:36.480 Like you can't, you can't know that.

05:38:38.040 I, I, and again, we can go based on anecdotes, you know, cause you gave anecdotes for your own.

05:38:42.500 Like you can't know that.

05:38:43.420 And the thing is, is like, yes, I agree.

05:38:46.000 I agree that you can love your stepchildren and should love your stepchildren.

05:38:49.560 But I also understand that there is, um, this delineation between children that are biologically

05:38:57.200 yours and ones that are not.

05:38:58.720 I get that.

05:38:59.720 Sure.

05:38:59.880 I would say that can also be just like a cultural, um, distinction because of the culture that

05:39:06.500 you've grown up with.

05:39:07.300 And it was so much emphasis on biological relation that that's why you, you have these different

05:39:12.700 feelings.

05:39:13.200 So you don't think that men care to know who their offspring even are?

05:39:16.820 Um, I mean, again, I, I think that would be based on the individual.

05:39:22.660 Like I, I know this is an anecdote, but I used to joke with my ex cause, um, our son

05:39:28.320 was conceived on our honeymoon, uh, when we were in Miami that, you know, the father was

05:39:33.700 a native to Miami.

05:39:35.680 Um, and I mean, even to this day, he's like, it doesn't matter at this point.

05:39:39.720 That kid is mine.

05:39:42.120 Repeat that.

05:39:42.900 You were on your honeymoon when our son was conceived.

05:39:45.440 Yeah.

05:39:45.740 So I used to joke that the child wasn't his.

05:39:49.340 Oh, okay.

05:39:49.840 And then at one.

05:39:50.400 I see.

05:39:50.520 I thought you were saying the child wasn't.

05:39:52.460 No.

05:39:53.880 Um.

05:39:54.360 And would your husband want to know?

05:39:56.360 I mean, he says that he, he says he doesn't care.

05:39:59.580 I mean, it's clearly.

05:40:00.900 Is he, is he your ex-husband?

05:40:02.040 Yes.

05:40:02.460 Oh, okay.

05:40:02.920 Yeah.

05:40:03.060 He probably cared.

05:40:04.620 He probably cared.

05:40:05.700 I mean, it's pretty clear.

05:40:06.460 His son is his.

05:40:07.360 Okay.

05:40:08.240 Uh, would you, if you, um.

05:40:11.320 I mean, I'm sorry.

05:40:12.400 Um.

05:40:12.760 Well, I just, I just want to ask this last question.

05:40:15.220 Then you can ask whatever you want.

05:40:16.180 Okay.

05:40:16.300 If it was the case that, um, that technology was sophisticated enough.

05:40:24.560 Mm-hmm.

05:40:24.940 Right?

05:40:25.580 That you could be pregnant.

05:40:27.440 Right?

05:40:27.900 The entire time your womb could be utilized in some way.

05:40:30.240 I don't know.

05:40:30.640 Whatever bizarre scientific way.

05:40:32.880 So like nine months.

05:40:34.360 Yeah.

05:40:34.540 Nine months.

05:40:35.060 Nine months in the womb.

05:40:35.580 Nine months.

05:40:35.960 Right.

05:40:36.280 And you can have the child.

05:40:37.860 Right.

05:40:39.020 But you were never assured paternity.

05:40:41.440 Maternity?

05:40:41.980 Yeah.

05:40:42.340 You weren't assured that.

05:40:43.560 So you, you were just assigned a child.

05:40:45.080 You never knew if it was yours or not yours.

05:40:46.940 Would you want to know?

05:40:49.220 Um.

05:40:50.760 I mean, it's hard to say.

05:40:52.040 Uh.

05:40:54.140 Again, I, I can kind of relate my, um, my social conditioning.

05:41:00.480 Um.

05:41:01.620 I don't know.

05:41:02.280 I've considered selling my eggs.

05:41:03.520 So does it really, would it really bother me to know that there's a child that I'm biologically

05:41:07.700 related to out there?

05:41:08.640 Not really.

05:41:10.340 Um.

05:41:11.020 Would I, if I decide to become a parent, is it necessarily a determinant that I'm biologically

05:41:16.480 related?

05:41:17.060 No.

05:41:18.560 So would it be better than ultimately following this logic for everybody who had a child to

05:41:23.600 just communally put them up and they be given out to the best parents?

05:41:27.960 Um, I think in some, no, I, I don't think it needs to be a hierarchy like that.

05:41:33.240 I think that, uh, the community can all have equal investment in children is what I'm saying.

05:41:38.640 Yeah.

05:41:38.740 But this is a huge community.

05:41:39.900 It's a 300 million person community.

05:41:41.380 Sure.

05:41:41.540 I mean, again, I'm not necessarily just, uh, you know, when we talk about communities,

05:41:47.160 like obviously I'm an American, but I don't have community with people in New York.

05:41:50.800 You have community with obviously you're a close inner circle.

05:41:54.780 And I think with like capitalism and patriarchy and kind of this idea of nuclear family, it's

05:42:00.260 really, um, hyper-focused individualism and taken it from community, which is why the nuclear

05:42:07.760 family is so popular in these, um, prescriptions of, you know, mom, dad, and child.

05:42:14.200 It's not multi-generational.

05:42:16.000 It's not extended family.

05:42:18.120 Do you think most women would care?

05:42:20.900 Um, that that's really irrelevant.

05:42:22.500 Cause I, I could just say again, it's because of these social purviews.

05:42:26.300 Do you think it's because of social purviews or because women want it really?

05:42:29.720 Yeah.

05:42:30.240 So you think that if there, if there was a different social purview, women would not care

05:42:34.120 to know if it was their actual offspring?

05:42:36.300 I don't think that we just have like necessarily these innate senses when it comes to preferences.

05:42:40.660 Our brain is a, is a social organ and so it responds to our environment.

05:42:46.540 And I think if we had maybe, um, you know, different structures, then yeah, like, like

05:42:53.100 just, we can talk about the food that you eat.

05:42:56.120 Um, obviously your preferences on food that you like are depending on your culture.

05:43:01.380 I mean, I, I hate, um, Vegemite where a lot of Australians like it because that's their

05:43:09.100 culture and it's something that they were, um, you know, something that they were a part

05:43:13.700 of through a long line.

05:43:16.020 Does that mean that they were born liking Vegemite?

05:43:18.480 Well, I mean, from an evolutionary model, yes.

05:43:21.700 Right.

05:43:22.200 It's everything, everything up to the point.

05:43:24.020 The first Vegemite sandwich was made was every, every fraction of evolution, which led

05:43:31.060 to the point that that sandwich was made.

05:43:32.580 So everything was selected for up until the point of that sandwich.

05:43:36.140 Uh, again, I think it's just based on like, you know, if I were born in Australia, I would

05:43:40.880 have more likely.

05:43:41.560 Then everything in Australia was selected for, for the greatest amount of survival based on

05:43:45.260 evolution.

05:43:45.660 Uh, uh, again, again, I, I don't think you're born with these innate things.

05:43:50.700 Like even, um, then what is natural selection?

05:43:55.520 It's like, it's selecting out traits that are bad traits, right?

05:43:59.300 Sure.

05:44:00.140 So that's for survival, but traits aren't necessarily like women have children with poor partners

05:44:07.120 all the time.

05:44:08.120 That's true.

05:44:08.820 So, I mean, it doesn't, it's not this innate thing.

05:44:12.500 That would make evidence for innate, uh, for, for like the idea of survival, like the, the

05:44:19.080 bad boy, things like this, that would actually make the case for that better for selection

05:44:23.960 against modernity.

05:44:25.240 Right.

05:44:25.580 So like women make poor mate selection when it comes to, uh, he's a big buff Chad, but

05:44:30.660 he's an asshole.

05:44:31.620 Right.

05:44:32.200 Um, no, I, I could say that my selection failed me, which I would think would be the prescriptions

05:44:38.200 that you would assign.

05:44:40.060 Yeah.

05:44:40.480 So what?

05:44:41.260 Okay.

05:44:41.820 When you, when you're talking about women making bad choices, when it comes to men, they're

05:44:46.220 often making choices based around the fact that they think this guy's a good protector.

05:44:50.180 These are all things that move into that.

05:44:51.760 Right.

05:44:52.520 And they're innate.

05:44:53.340 I don't know if I've ever evaluated a man on his ability to protect me.

05:44:56.480 You wouldn't need to.

05:44:57.580 It's innate.

05:44:59.540 Uh, then no.

05:45:01.060 So, so you're saying women who marry abusers, it's their fault.

05:45:03.600 Well, I'm saying that there has to be some kind of conditionals inside of women for why

05:45:08.340 they're attracted to fucking jerks and they seem to be really attracted to jerks.

05:45:13.520 So you're saying that women innately know an abuser.

05:45:18.420 What do you mean an abuser?

05:45:19.840 What's an abuser?

05:45:21.180 Uh, physically, physically violent.

05:45:23.980 Yeah.

05:45:24.240 Yeah.

05:45:24.360 I don't think that they're selecting for physical violence towards them, but a man who's capable

05:45:28.000 of physical violence towards other men.

05:45:30.060 Well, I mean, you said that women want protectors.

05:45:33.840 And that we can identify protectors, but obviously the, the, well, you would identify, uh, that

05:45:39.880 most assault women are the quote unquote protectors.

05:45:42.380 That's bullshit.

05:45:44.220 It's absolutely not.

05:45:45.240 Yeah.

05:45:45.440 Why, what makes them protectors if they're assaulting women?

05:45:48.880 Well, that's the role that they were supposed to, like when we look at, um, who the protectors

05:45:54.060 are, it's supposed to be male family members and partners.

05:45:57.020 And these are the most likely people to assault women.

05:46:00.400 Oh, okay.

05:46:01.100 So what?

05:46:01.640 So how, how does a woman delineate between this is a protector and an abuser?

05:46:06.420 They would just use whatever the phenotypical expressions were that they innately thought

05:46:10.280 led to a good outcome for reproduction.

05:46:13.000 That would be the evolutionary view.

05:46:14.940 So the phenotypical expression of like, he's well chiseled.

05:46:18.320 He looks good.

05:46:18.820 I just want to make sure I understand.

05:46:20.520 So when women get married and then experienced domestic violence, they knew he was an abuser

05:46:25.980 before I already told you, no, multiple times, then, then, then evolutionary fail.

05:46:31.660 It takes nothing away from my point.

05:46:34.260 So.

05:46:35.820 Well, no evolution.

05:46:37.120 So evolution right now would lead to modernity.

05:46:40.900 You agree with that, right?

05:46:42.180 Every point of selection selected out traits, which did, did not lead to modernity.

05:46:47.240 Okay.

05:46:48.020 You agree that that's true?

05:46:49.180 Sure.

05:46:49.680 Okay.

05:46:49.980 So there could be holdover traits that women have and men have when it comes to the idea

05:46:56.820 of mate selection.

05:46:57.680 You agree that that's true too, right?

05:46:59.220 They just haven't been selected out of the gene pool yet.

05:47:01.060 Um, I guess we would need to like identify what these traits are just that there could

05:47:16.420 be traits, which are holdovers from like, well, 10,000 years ago, cause evolution is

05:47:22.240 a really slow process over an elongated period of time.

05:47:25.040 10,000 years ago, this was a really useful trait.

05:47:27.540 Now it's not a really useful trait and it hasn't been selected out yet due to technology.

05:47:32.500 You can agree that there's probably plenty of holdover traits like that.

05:47:35.620 Sure.

05:47:36.120 Okay.

05:47:36.400 So one of them would be a phenotypical expression towards an aggressive male, right?

05:47:40.860 This person would be capable of protecting you or capable of advanced violence, things

05:47:45.400 like this.

05:47:45.820 Doesn't mean that you assume that they're going to beat you up.

05:47:48.620 I don't know where you keep coming up with that, but, uh, the, just the idea that based

05:47:52.700 on whatever the perceived attractive phenotypical expressions are, oh, women like really tall

05:47:57.200 men.

05:47:57.640 Why?

05:47:59.020 I mean, that's cross-cultural.

05:48:00.500 They seem to be attracted to men who are taller than them.

05:48:02.460 Why?

05:48:03.600 Well, I think on average men are taller than women.

05:48:05.880 Yeah.

05:48:06.100 But why do they want men to be taller than them?

05:48:09.500 I would just say that would be gender affirming.

05:48:13.720 Even though it's cross-cultural?

05:48:15.600 Yeah.

05:48:15.960 Okay.

05:48:16.840 So is everything, is there any innate characteristics human beings have from an evolutionary standpoint?

05:48:23.560 I mean, you, you would have to establish to me what would be human nature and what, so

05:48:28.420 I do think, and again, like, are you arguing bioessentialism?

05:48:33.060 Well, from an evolutionary standpoint, yeah, it is, it is essentialism.

05:48:36.380 Yeah.

05:48:36.400 I mean, even evolutionary psychology doesn't argue bioessentialism, but, uh, bio, uh, biological

05:48:42.280 influence.

05:48:43.120 What is biological essentialism?

05:48:45.180 Essentially that behaviors and traits are predetermined.

05:48:49.360 No, I think evolution always argues from a sense of predeterminism has to.

05:48:54.380 No, because you're, uh, like, I'm sure you've heard of epigenetic effects.

05:48:58.680 Sure.

05:48:59.000 There's also bio-social models, but no, even, uh, evolutionary psychology does not argue for

05:49:05.000 bioessentialism, but bio-influence.

05:49:07.180 So what?

05:49:07.600 So what I'm arguing to you, what I'm arguing to you right now is that you're going to have

05:49:12.820 traits, which have been selected for, right?

05:49:15.700 Like hands.

05:49:17.200 You have hands?

05:49:18.460 I do have hands.

05:49:19.300 Yeah.

05:49:19.700 Yeah.

05:49:19.720 Or that, was that selected for?

05:49:21.720 What do you mean?

05:49:22.140 Was that selected for?

05:49:23.120 Meaning through, am I, am I with my partner?

05:49:24.580 Through the course, through the course of natural selection, right?

05:49:28.380 Meaning this species dies, this species doesn't die, right?

05:49:32.300 Through that, through that, uh, theory of natural selection, eventually we came to you

05:49:36.980 have hands, right?

05:49:39.320 That is a trait you were born with.

05:49:41.280 You do have hands.

05:49:42.140 Sure.

05:49:42.740 Adaptation.

05:49:43.300 Yeah.

05:49:43.660 Like you don't have fins?

05:49:44.840 I don't have fins.

05:49:45.780 No.

05:49:45.940 Okay.

05:49:46.220 So you have hands because of all of the traits selected out that weren't your hands.

05:49:50.660 Okay.

05:49:51.100 So then there, there has to be some type of essentialism to that, right?

05:49:55.720 Um, I mean, I guess you're, you're talking about, uh, like certain biological features,

05:50:03.020 but we're, we're also talking about behaviors, right?

05:50:05.740 And yeah, I don't see why you wouldn't have innate traits that were geared towards survival

05:50:10.720 and behavior.

05:50:11.160 Well, then I would just ask you to prove like how you would prove the nature of human behavior,

05:50:16.460 the nature of it, or just traits that human beings seem to be driving towards.

05:50:23.420 Yeah.

05:50:23.900 How do you know that these aren't culturally driven traits that these are just innate by

05:50:28.220 taking other cultures and seeing if cultures that don't have, I mean, obviously there's

05:50:32.380 always by taking other cultures that don't have contact with each other, uh, or didn't

05:50:37.560 have contact with each other, but we see the same types of trends.

05:50:40.460 But we're all those, uh, cultures or all those communities within the same certain time

05:50:44.780 period.

05:50:45.620 No, you can do a cross time period.

05:50:47.180 I mean, I, I don't think that that study was done through a cross.

05:50:50.560 I didn't say there was a study.

05:50:51.720 You asked how that could be done.

05:50:53.240 And then I told you, I don't think, um, like obviously the conditions that one community

05:50:57.900 is subjected to in a pre, uh, pre-industrialized, uh, community is going to be different than

05:51:03.880 one that is industrialized and has different resources.

05:51:07.840 So it's hard to say like what the nature would be without accounting for the environmental

05:51:12.680 influence and the strategies that come along with it.

05:51:15.660 Which is why we would take a look at different cultures over different time periods.

05:51:19.080 And then if we found that there was, oh, I don't know, something that they all kind of

05:51:23.040 did based on the specific sex that they had, we would be able to make better determinations

05:51:28.820 of things, which were innate.

05:51:29.880 Do you have something you're referencing?

05:51:31.600 Yeah.

05:51:31.760 There's all sorts of studies on this.

05:51:33.120 Okay.

05:51:33.380 I would love that.

05:51:33.800 Yeah.

05:51:34.240 Anthropological studies when it comes to, uh, evo psych, which is now a big deal.

05:51:38.580 And I'm not an evolutionary guy.

05:51:40.040 I don't even believe in evolution, but I can still make the, I can still make the argument

05:51:44.120 from the evolutionary side of your worldview.

05:51:46.560 There should be, you shouldn't have any problem with the fact that human beings evolve with

05:51:50.920 traits.

05:51:51.120 Do you think women are more empathetic than men?

05:51:53.120 No.

05:51:53.640 No.

05:51:53.940 Okay.

05:51:54.360 Never have.

05:51:55.140 Okay.

05:51:55.380 Let's, uh, let a couple of chats come through just cause they're kind of piling up here.

05:52:00.980 Okay.

05:52:01.380 Uh, two of them appear to have fallen off, so I won't be able to show it on screen, but

05:52:08.320 I will, uh, read them from my computer cause I can still access it that way.

05:52:14.100 But really quick before we do guys, if you're enjoying the stream, kindly like the video,

05:52:18.640 if you're watching on Twitch, guys, go to twitch.tv slash whatever, drop us a follow on the

05:52:23.940 prime sub.

05:52:24.420 If you have one, if you have Amazon prime, you can link it to your Twitch quick for easy

05:52:28.540 way to support the show.

05:52:29.540 Every single month, crazy.

05:52:30.360 Thank you for the gifted five subs.

05:52:32.400 I do very much appreciate it guys.

05:52:34.340 Like the video.

05:52:35.280 If you're enjoying the show, also Venmo cash app at whatever pod, if you want a hundred

05:52:38.580 percent of your contribution to go towards us.

05:52:41.120 Also TTS is $69 and up.

05:52:44.960 That'll be for the roast session.

05:52:46.480 I'm going to let these, uh, shoot.

05:52:48.380 Okay.

05:52:48.860 That's not good.

05:52:49.740 All right.

05:52:50.740 I skipped one.

05:52:51.840 Bluff is donated $70.

05:52:53.460 I think it's...

05:52:54.460 In the words of the blessed Virgin Mary, come again.

05:52:59.940 Huh.

05:53:05.980 Thank you, Bluff Fest, for your, uh, TTS.

05:53:10.600 Appreciate it.

05:53:12.420 Thank you.

05:53:13.500 Uh, we have Lucas.

05:53:15.860 Lucas donated $100.

05:53:19.600 Initially, I thought it was just an act that you were dimwitted, illiterate, and ahistorical.

05:53:24.660 But now I just realized that it's no act.

05:53:28.140 Please tell me you're not a teacher.

05:53:30.300 I am not a teacher.

05:53:31.180 You should, you should have been insubordinate, though, or maybe not insubordinate, but he,

05:53:40.560 he told you to, he told you to do something and you did it.

05:53:43.520 That's kind of like the patriarchy a little bit.

05:53:45.400 You should have been like, I'm not answering that.

05:53:47.260 I mean...

05:53:47.940 Because feminism.

05:53:48.920 Okay.

05:53:49.860 Yeah.

05:53:50.960 Well, don't let me dictate what feminism is to you.

05:53:53.460 I, I don't think that's...

05:53:54.460 Graffito Tagged donated $69.

05:53:56.400 Yes.

05:53:57.160 Men evolved to spread genes, maximizing offspring.

05:54:01.220 Women seek long-term support to ensure child survival.

05:54:03.480 I feel this is the same comment we've already had.

05:54:05.880 Marriage balance is this, giving men paternity certainty and women stability for raising kids.

05:54:10.640 Yes.

05:54:11.140 Yeah, because he says marriage.

05:54:12.960 Yeah, not monogamy, right?

05:54:14.260 My bad.

05:54:15.080 Uh, okay, so we have, thank you, Graffito Tagged.

05:54:18.180 We got Gambit here.

05:54:19.240 Thank you.

05:54:19.740 Graffito Tagged donated $69.

05:54:20.920 Is she really arguing that B-sturds were more likely to be embraced by the community rather

05:54:26.940 than be shamed?

05:54:28.380 Why would a man provide resources to a child that was not biologically his?

05:54:37.360 That's for you, I think.

05:54:39.020 Um, I mean, again, community, uh, survival.

05:54:43.140 You, you obviously get benefits for your, from your community, and you would want your community

05:54:47.480 to continue.

05:54:49.060 Okay.

05:54:50.920 Bluff is donated $100.

05:54:54.480 This woman has five sons and has called them all Andrew.

05:54:58.380 She simply tells them all apart from each other by using their surnames so as to not

05:55:03.160 complicate things.

05:55:06.700 Do you have five children?

05:55:08.280 I do not.

05:55:08.900 Oh, I don't know.

05:55:09.540 She has one.

05:55:10.660 Okay.

05:55:11.180 Bluff.

05:55:12.140 Bluff asked, thank you for the message.

05:55:13.660 I do appreciate it.

05:55:14.880 And we have, uh, two more coming in.

05:55:18.700 We have Christopher Murphy.

05:55:20.800 Thank you, man.

05:55:21.840 Christopher Murphy donated $69.

05:55:24.020 I'm from Las Cruces, New Mexico, and I can tell you are drier than the dessert.

05:55:35.200 Desert.

05:55:36.320 I think.

05:55:36.980 Like deadpan?

05:55:37.840 Does he mean deadpan?

05:55:38.920 You know, you're very dry.

05:55:39.760 Well, he did say desert.

05:55:40.300 I mean, if you are going to burn, make sure, make sure you don't make typos.

05:55:43.800 Yeah.

05:55:44.420 Oh, like a, like a cupcake.

05:55:46.460 He's that kind of dessert.

05:55:47.780 Well, yeah, dessert is.

05:55:48.460 Dessert.

05:55:49.160 There's two S's.

05:55:50.020 Not desert.

05:55:50.420 Wow.

05:55:51.740 He fucked up.

05:55:53.140 Just a little advice.

05:55:54.380 Just a little advice.

05:55:54.960 I've done it myself.

05:55:55.740 It really sucks when you have a good burn and you make a typo or.

05:55:58.200 So here are the two that unfortunately aren't going to come up normally, sometimes Streamlabs

05:56:03.540 bugs.

05:56:04.340 We have Corny, Corny Peters, 432.

05:56:08.660 I apologize very much that it's not coming up as it normally would.

05:56:11.780 Streamlabs bugged out.

05:56:13.400 You're either acting for your fans and realizing that you're getting cooked by Andrew or you're

05:56:18.140 full of shit and your husband's going to divorce you after he sees this debate, unless

05:56:23.320 he's a simp.

05:56:24.720 That already happened, I think.

05:56:26.520 Right?

05:56:27.360 We, we are already divorced.

05:56:28.680 Already divorced.

05:56:29.320 Okay.

05:56:29.740 All right.

05:56:30.480 And then Moonlight says, hi, Rachel and Andrew.

05:56:33.440 Thanks for letting me know details about your.

05:56:36.260 You read that one.

05:56:37.020 Oh, it did?

05:56:38.120 Okay.

05:56:38.600 So I might've.

05:56:39.480 Oh, I missed.

05:56:40.260 Excuse me.

05:56:40.760 I missed Lucas's.

05:56:42.340 Lucas.

05:56:42.620 I apologize.

05:56:44.200 Streamlabs got bugs.

05:56:45.360 Men are hardwired for a hundred thousand years towards a subconscious revulsion against

05:56:49.840 female promiscuity.

05:56:51.260 This is settled stock.

05:56:53.400 Excuse me.

05:56:54.000 Studied by Dr.

05:56:55.360 Bus across 37 cultures.

05:56:58.360 Stop with the social constructionist bullshit.

05:57:01.980 Do you want to respond to Lucas?

05:57:03.920 Um, I mean, in some of the, uh, sources, like it does reference Dr. Buss.

05:57:13.400 And again, he's not arguing, uh, bio essentialism, but just bio influence.

05:57:18.480 And again, when, when, when obviously he's evaluating cultures, these are going to be cultures with historic record.

05:57:25.800 And a lot of the cultures that I'm talking about might not have written historical record, but how do you know?

05:57:31.480 I mean, I'm going to delineate it from, from artifacts, um, from fossils.

05:57:36.360 Yeah.

05:57:36.860 Artifacts and fossils aren't going to be able to demonstrate that.

05:57:40.440 That how, how could an artifact or fossil absent a record?

05:57:45.500 I mean, if you find pottery where, um, like there are female figurines intermitted as, as goddesses and they're pictured with multiple males.

05:57:55.140 That doesn't prove shit.

05:57:56.920 With children.

05:57:57.740 That literally doesn't prove anything.

05:57:59.460 It's just a pot that has some, you have no context for it.

05:58:03.680 I mean, I, how else can we determine how society happens without some kind of men and women working together to build society?

05:58:13.360 And then the limitation of knowing how specific biological functions work.

05:58:19.180 I think that all of that comports to exactly what he's saying when it comes to the idea of monogamy and not sharing women.

05:58:28.420 Yeah.

05:58:29.000 I think, um, monogamy was originated, um, when we came back when essentially like agriculture and property became valuable.

05:58:41.740 Yeah.

05:58:41.840 I agree in modernity, right?

05:58:44.060 Well, no, it existed long before that, by the way, like in medieval Europe and due to religion and due to Judaism and due to post what?

05:58:52.900 Post property and agriculture.

05:58:54.840 Yeah.

05:58:55.040 Well, I thought you were, I think, I thought you were referencing industrial revolution.

05:58:58.680 Sorry.

05:58:59.300 No.

05:58:59.660 Okay.

05:59:00.160 So agriculture, just agriculture in general.

05:59:02.820 Yeah.

05:59:03.000 The domestication of animals.

05:59:04.880 Uh, we don't even know when that happened.

05:59:06.580 I mean, it, it, again, it depends on what culture, but yeah, that that's roughly about 8,000.

05:59:13.520 We don't know that.

05:59:14.380 We don't know when agriculture happened.

05:59:16.640 Like we just talking about the ability of humanity to grow a plant.

05:59:22.520 Um, I mean, to create crops.

05:59:24.340 Yeah.

05:59:24.820 Like obviously there's a difference between hunter gatherer societies and, excuse me, moving to agriculture.

05:59:30.340 Yeah.

05:59:30.400 But animal husbandry could be, you know, 50,000 years old.

05:59:34.140 They have no idea how old animal husbandry is.

05:59:36.900 Uh, we, we do have theory on it.

05:59:39.120 Theory.

05:59:39.820 Yeah.

05:59:40.060 It's exactly what it is.

05:59:41.400 Theory.

05:59:41.960 Yeah.

05:59:42.240 Gravity is theory.

05:59:43.520 No, that's different.

05:59:45.100 So there's a force effect.

05:59:46.500 We can at least see that we call gravity.

05:59:48.140 That's not theoretical.

05:59:49.500 Right.

05:59:50.560 Right.

05:59:51.040 But you still can't see gravity.

05:59:52.480 Yeah.

05:59:52.780 Right.

05:59:53.100 But we can't really make the determination of animal husbandry.

05:59:56.940 We can make the determination of modern animal husbandry.

06:00:00.220 Like when that became a mainstream may stay based on literature, but I mean, we don't,

06:00:06.000 we don't really know.

06:00:06.860 We don't really know when like people started growing plants.

06:00:10.420 How would you even determine that?

06:00:13.080 Um, I mean, I don't know the methodological like process of how we would determine that,

06:00:17.000 but there, um, obviously are like pleicine and nicene epochs where, where we have evidence

06:00:23.440 on what is occurring within that, within that time period.

06:00:27.440 Yeah.

06:00:28.040 But I mean, it's not, so like this guy, he points out, he says every culture, which is

06:00:34.440 studied cross-culturally, which is what I came up with on the fly.

06:00:37.740 Right.

06:00:38.180 And just to, to demonstrate how you could demonstrate this, but he said the same thing.

06:00:42.240 But what cultures?

06:00:42.980 He's like, there's 37 different cultures that we looked at.

06:00:45.640 Men are hardwired to spread their genes and women not to.

06:00:49.480 What's the methodology?

06:00:50.040 Is it during a certain time period?

06:00:52.380 He said it was across multiple time periods.

06:00:54.620 I don't think he said that.

06:00:55.220 And multiple cultures.

06:00:56.420 I think he just said multiple cultures.

06:00:57.800 I don't think he mentioned anything about time periods.

06:00:59.240 Didn't you say that this guy, Dr. Buss is as an, I don't know who he is, right?

06:01:02.940 But didn't you just, I think it's Dr. David Buss.

06:01:04.780 Yeah.

06:01:04.880 Didn't you just get done saying that he's referenced in a lot of these early anthropological

06:01:08.660 studies?

06:01:09.220 No, he's, he's referenced in evolutionary psychology.

06:01:11.960 Oh, evolutionary psychology.

06:01:13.440 Okay.

06:01:13.800 So anthropological studies you think actually demonstrate to you that men were not hardwired

06:01:19.380 to spread their genes?

06:01:21.260 Um, not through like the mechanism of monogamy.

06:01:23.980 No, I didn't say through monogamy, just wired to spread their genes.

06:01:27.680 Um, I mean, I, I think primates are like engage in sex.

06:01:35.000 Sure.

06:01:36.120 So men are wired to spread their genes and, and, and, and primate culture.

06:01:39.620 What do women do?

06:01:40.400 Do you think women don't like have a desire to have sex?

06:01:43.960 No, I do.

06:01:44.520 But his point was to say that women select for a single man.

06:01:50.020 So they want a single man there for the purpose of protection and things like this.

06:01:54.740 Not men, women.

06:01:55.720 Well, again, community can offer you protection.

06:01:58.160 That's not what he's saying.

06:01:59.020 Claiming the studies say.

06:02:00.740 Well, I mean, if you want to talk about the study, we can.

06:02:04.000 Yeah.

06:02:04.280 I mean, I'd like it linked at least.

06:02:06.180 Okay.

06:02:06.600 But yeah, I, I, I've never heard of such a thing.

06:02:10.680 I don't think that there are societies filled to the brim with, uh, women goddesses who are

06:02:15.840 basically having sex with, uh, whoever, whatever man they wanted to.

06:02:19.880 Like that wasn't the case.

06:02:22.320 Um, okay.

06:02:23.120 Yeah.

06:02:23.640 I don't think it was the case.

06:02:26.680 Basically.

06:02:27.300 From, from my reading there were, um, just before there was written history, right?

06:02:32.560 I mean, there, there is some evidence, but, uh, of like female goddesses prior to, to patriarchal

06:02:39.360 ones and that they essentially represent, uh, represented the good mother, uh, fertility,

06:02:44.460 sexuality, and war.

06:02:47.500 Yeah.

06:02:48.140 Okay.

06:02:48.740 But we're, we're not talking about that about goddesses.

06:02:52.160 We're talking about women having big sex festivals where the men aren't interested in the paternity

06:02:57.840 because they want to share based on the community.

06:03:01.040 Um, well, yeah, like, uh, again, I, I don't know why it's so far fetched to say that there

06:03:07.180 were civilizations, um, that, you know, thought that didn't understand the contributions, um,

06:03:15.420 that men had towards, uh, reproduction or that didn't understand that just even a single

06:03:21.500 encounter could lead to pregnancy.

06:03:24.120 Uh, I, I would even say from.

06:03:26.500 Um, yeah, that has nothing to do, even if they didn't understand the mechanism, even

06:03:30.080 a lot of semen would create the, the maximum outcome of pregnancy.

06:03:35.340 And so multiple men would be invested in, in fulfilling that need.

06:03:39.780 Do you think the ancient world didn't, didn't know that, that the penis going in the vagina

06:03:44.120 led to a child?

06:03:45.280 Because that's a historical too.

06:03:46.660 I mean, I obviously think there's a certain, um, yeah, I mean, I, I think there are certain

06:03:52.840 civilizations, uh.

06:03:54.960 Not the major ones, major civilizations knew it, at least the ones we got record of.

06:03:59.940 Okay.

06:04:00.420 Well, I mean, if you have some kind of evidence that talks about, uh, prehistoric cultures,

06:04:05.720 I'd love to see it.

06:04:07.160 Well, okay.

06:04:07.960 Again, the major cultures we have evidence of.

06:04:11.940 I'm happy to give you my sources.

06:04:13.440 You can give me your sources.

06:04:14.540 You're going to give me.

06:04:14.880 I think we're kind of beating a dead horse.

06:04:16.320 Yeah.

06:04:16.380 Okay.

06:04:16.720 Well, I mean, I just don't understand.

06:04:18.040 I have prehistorical non written sources that demonstrate that men didn't know this,

06:04:23.740 but in the written record, they did know this.

06:04:25.900 It's really weird to me.

06:04:27.880 It's just like conjecture.

06:04:29.120 All right.

06:04:31.000 Uh, so here's what we're going to do.

06:04:32.680 There's like one or two other super quick things we're going to do.

06:04:36.040 I'm going to let some chats come through and Lucas donated $69.

06:04:40.820 I literally told you that the 37 culture study included secluded tribes in the Amazon and

06:04:47.240 Papua New Guinea.

06:04:48.720 And before you dismiss Dr. Buss, know that he is the most by far cited scientist in this

06:04:54.580 area.

06:04:56.780 Response or?

06:04:58.200 I don't have anything.

06:04:59.020 Okay.

06:04:59.720 Uh, thank you, Lucas, for the message.

06:05:02.440 I apologize that your message from like an hour ish ago, uh, fell off.

06:05:06.960 We have Blahfest.

06:05:08.000 Blahfest donated $70.

06:05:12.380 Andrew, just because you can't actually see her point doesn't mean she might not theoretically

06:05:17.420 have won.

06:05:18.120 That's true.

06:05:19.400 She might theoretically have won just because I can't see it.

06:05:22.660 All right.

06:05:23.180 We have, uh, Lucas again coming in.

06:05:28.320 Blahfest.

06:05:28.900 Really good to see you, man.

06:05:30.060 Thank you so much for your stream labs message.

06:05:32.400 If you guys want to get one in stream labs.com slash whatever.

06:05:35.320 Lucas donated $69.

06:05:36.800 Yes, dopey dot his multiple studies included in access for mating preferences across time

06:05:43.340 slash history dot to your damn homework before you perpetually keep spouting off that you

06:05:48.480 disagree.

06:05:49.560 You've lost any credibility.

06:05:54.100 I don't have anything.

06:05:55.640 Okay.

06:05:56.120 Uh, I do have a quick question for you.

06:05:58.240 We won't linger on it for too long.

06:06:00.000 I, I think anyways, uh, would you rather cross paths with a bear or random man or random bear

06:06:07.380 in the woods?

06:06:10.980 Um, I mean, I live in Montana, so I have come across paths of, um, with, with bears.

06:06:20.300 Uh, I, I, I think it would be context dependent for me.

06:06:23.160 I would be really nervous being alone with a man.

06:06:25.960 Well, here's here.

06:06:26.840 How about this context?

06:06:28.440 So you randomly spawn in the woods and then you have two buttons that also randomly spawn.

06:06:33.960 You can press the one that spawns a random man or you press the one that spawns a random

06:06:38.500 bear.

06:06:38.980 It would be a random adult man from the United States or a random adult bear, uh, of any

06:06:46.220 bear species in the United States.

06:06:48.980 Okay.

06:06:49.280 Bear.

06:06:50.140 Bear.

06:06:50.540 Okay.

06:06:52.500 Okay.

06:06:52.980 Uh, there is a follow-up question from double agent donated $20 double agent question for

06:07:00.440 the feminist.

06:07:01.520 Would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or in alone in a public bathroom with

06:07:06.100 a mentally ill man pretending to be a woman?

06:07:09.420 I assume they're, they're asking me if I would rather be alone with a cis man or a trans

06:07:13.700 woman, uh, alone in the woods with a man or alone in a public bathroom with a trans

06:07:22.580 woman.

06:07:24.100 Is that what they're asking?

06:07:25.620 I believe that's what they're asking.

06:07:27.620 Yes.

06:07:27.940 Oh, I'd rather be in the bathroom with a trans woman.

06:07:30.940 Okay.

06:07:31.900 We have two here.

06:07:35.260 Edwin Brater donated $20 and 69 cents.

06:07:39.060 I've watching this whole debate and I never heard her stance on anything.

06:07:43.340 It always changes and just depends on something.

06:07:47.380 She never argued anything and stuck with it.

06:07:50.300 Classic Andrew W.

06:07:51.980 Love you.

06:07:52.700 It's true.

06:07:53.060 It's like a tube of toothpaste.

06:07:54.280 Squeeze here, moves there, squeeze there, moves here.

06:07:56.280 I mean, I do think morality can be very context dependent.

06:07:59.080 Like we've talked about and like the aspects of killing, like is killing wrong?

06:08:02.900 Obviously there's going to be instances where it's justified and not justified.

06:08:07.060 By the way, guys, we did lower the TTS.

06:08:09.260 It's a $20 TTS.

06:08:10.620 We'll do the roast session.

06:08:11.540 Now we'll do a roast session and then we'll get this all ramped up.

06:08:15.580 We have 51st state.

06:08:16.980 The 51st state donated $20.

06:08:20.200 I'm just happy to see a Canadian stand up for traditional values.

06:08:23.480 Oh, you're Canadian?

06:08:24.740 Oh.

06:08:25.060 Good on you, Andrew.

06:08:27.020 Hmm.

06:08:28.100 Now I do.

06:08:28.940 You heard that from the same place you heard.

06:08:30.420 I didn't have any biological kids.

06:08:32.140 Hmm.

06:08:33.000 Andrew, for you're going to be on.

06:08:35.120 I think both of you actually are going to be on our dating talk panel tomorrow.

06:08:38.920 Yeah, I'll be here.

06:08:39.560 You'll be here?

06:08:40.200 Yeah.

06:08:40.360 Uh, Andrew, if somebody donates an Ethereum, one ETH.

06:08:47.640 I'm not eating a fucking pineapple, bro.

06:08:48.640 Will you eat a slice of pineapple pizza?

06:08:50.800 I'm not eating pineapple ever.

06:08:51.460 I hate it.

06:08:52.380 What about a singular slice of pineapple?

06:08:54.940 It doesn't have to be pineapple pizza.

06:08:56.380 Dude.

06:08:57.020 Are you upset your consent isn't being respected?

06:08:59.700 It's so gross.

06:09:00.500 What?

06:09:00.860 You know, Andrew, no doesn't always mean no.

06:09:02.960 What?

06:09:04.940 Look, it's a negotiation.

06:09:06.540 It's, I'm not forcing, I'm not forcing him.

06:09:13.580 I'm just like negotiating the, the terms.

06:09:16.380 Coercing?

06:09:17.440 Negotiating?

06:09:17.920 What?

06:09:18.180 How much is an Ethereum worth?

06:09:20.200 Like, 2000, I think?

06:09:24.640 2000?

06:09:25.120 No, I ain't doing it for an Ethereum.

06:09:26.580 You're not doing it?

06:09:27.440 No.

06:09:29.700 It's going to be.

06:09:30.080 What about the champagne pop?

06:09:30.980 I'll do three, three Ethereum.

06:09:33.180 Three, three ETH.

06:09:33.580 $2,000?

06:09:35.060 I ain't doing it for $2,000.

06:09:36.720 Damn.

06:09:37.380 To me, of course, though.

06:09:39.920 The Ethereum.

06:09:41.440 Well, the reason it has to be three is because, you know, I want half of it.

06:09:46.600 That's how you negotiate.

06:09:49.560 That's fair.

06:09:50.260 That's fair.

06:09:51.340 All right.

06:09:51.700 We'll split it.

06:09:54.360 Okay.

06:09:54.960 All right.

06:09:55.380 We have some more coming through.

06:09:56.840 Let's see.

06:09:58.460 I'm going to take the Ethereum and then stiff them.

06:10:01.880 Leave me out of it.

06:10:02.820 They're in the woods.

06:10:04.320 Oh, boy.

06:10:06.760 Thank you, Bear in the Woods.

06:10:08.380 I appreciate it.

06:10:09.220 Is that a common commenter?

06:10:11.420 Bear in the Woods?

06:10:12.220 Yeah.

06:10:12.860 No, I think it's...

06:10:14.080 No.

06:10:14.560 I don't know who that is.

06:10:16.000 You've never seen it before?

06:10:16.900 No, I haven't seen it.

06:10:17.720 Do either of you believe in aliens?

06:10:19.720 I don't.

06:10:20.600 I...

06:10:21.060 I mean, I wouldn't discount the existence.

06:10:24.680 What the?

06:10:25.480 It runs into Fermi's paradox.

06:10:27.240 I just...

06:10:27.680 I don't think...

06:10:28.280 I don't think so.

06:10:29.640 Yeah.

06:10:30.880 Do you guys think Mark Zuckerberg is an alien, maybe?

06:10:34.740 I've read...

06:10:35.660 Like a reptile?

06:10:36.120 He's one of the lizard people.

06:10:37.700 I don't know.

06:10:38.360 That's actually true, though.

06:10:39.420 What's wrong with your head donated $20?

06:10:43.440 Saying women using formula is just as good as breastfeeding is insanity.

06:10:48.420 A mother's breast milk is formulated specifically for their baby and changes during growth spurts

06:10:54.440 and illnesses, day slash night.

06:10:56.940 Oh.

06:10:57.700 Yeah, she knows.

06:10:58.420 She breastfed.

06:10:59.380 I mean, I did say...

06:11:00.100 She wasn't going to feed with no formula.

06:11:02.500 I did say breastfeeding is optimal.

06:11:05.020 Did this one from Lucas come through?

06:11:06.880 I'm pretty sure it did.

06:11:08.480 Did this come through?

06:11:09.480 Lucas donated $69.

06:11:11.640 Yeah?

06:11:11.820 Yes.

06:11:12.120 Okay.

06:11:13.000 We have Gambit here who is about to come in with a message.

06:11:17.820 Guys, if you want $20 TTS, that's streamlabs.com slash whatever.

06:11:23.120 Streamlabs.

06:11:24.440 Did you hear the feedback?

06:11:30.640 Is that...

06:11:31.040 Maybe that's just...

06:11:31.680 Anyways.

06:11:32.600 Gambit.

06:11:33.240 Gambit 90.

06:11:33.940 Gambit 90.

06:11:34.600 Where's Gambit 20?

06:11:35.980 Not surprised she's divorced.

06:11:37.920 Uh-oh.

06:11:38.220 Is she aware of the statistics regarding children growing up in a single mother home versus two

06:11:43.620 parents versus single father?

06:11:46.140 Quick response to this, if you'd like.

06:11:48.380 I mean, I wouldn't necessarily constitute myself as a single mother.

06:11:52.080 Um, his dad is very, is very much involved and we have joint custody, equal joint custody.

06:11:57.240 Um, I mean, if we're also going to talk about like the outcomes of children, there is a meta

06:12:01.960 analysis that discusses same sex relationships have, uh, equal or better outcomes as heterosexual

06:12:08.180 parents.

06:12:09.380 I think we just need to look at, um, like what kind of community the single mother has, what

06:12:15.280 kind of access she has to, to money, so on and so forth.

06:12:18.600 Got it.

06:12:19.940 Okay.

06:12:20.260 And then, uh, Blake, can I have you pull this up?

06:12:23.440 I think it'd be better to just do, uh, pull up the video because we're going to react to

06:12:28.080 one of your videos about the whatever podcast.

06:12:30.900 Oh, right.

06:12:31.420 Uh, it'd better to do it now than on the dating talk panel, I think.

06:12:37.780 You got to stay for this.

06:12:39.000 I'm going to have a smoke while you get into it.

06:12:40.920 Oh, is this where you shame...

06:12:41.600 Have you seen it?

06:12:42.220 Is this where...

06:12:42.600 Here, we'll, we'll wait.

06:12:44.520 I've seen it.

06:12:45.360 No, I know, but we'll, uh, we'll wait until...

06:12:46.760 That's where you shame the sex worker, right?

06:12:49.680 Shame?

06:12:50.340 Yeah.

06:12:50.820 You call her a degenerate.

06:12:53.800 We'll get into it in just a moment.

06:12:55.380 Well, here, we'll wait for Andrew to get back, but, uh, let me see if there's anything else

06:13:02.000 really quick that we can do.

06:13:02.940 Guys, if you want 100% of your contribution to Goat Swords the Show, Venmo, Cash App,

06:13:07.200 WhateverPod, like the video, please.

06:13:09.860 Like the video.

06:13:11.160 If you have enjoyed the stream, Andrew will be right back.

06:13:14.240 He just went to get a quick, do a quick smoke.

06:13:18.300 Twitch.tv slash whatever.

06:13:19.540 Guys, check if you can follow the stream if you have a follow available.

06:13:23.140 If you're watching over there on YouTube, we've got almost like, what, 9,000, 8,000 people

06:13:27.040 watching, something like that.

06:13:28.600 So if you guys can, if you have a Twitch account and you're not yet following us, open up another

06:13:32.320 tab really quick.

06:13:33.420 Go to Twitch.tv slash whatever.

06:13:35.560 Drop us a follow.

06:13:36.340 So we're, we're so, we're less than a thousand away from a hundred thousand followers.

06:13:42.280 So if you can, we'd really appreciate the support on there.

06:13:44.900 Also check if you have a prime sub, you can do this.

06:13:47.360 If you're watching this back and you're listening, we don't need to be live, excuse me.

06:13:51.240 We don't need to be live for you to drop a prime sub.

06:13:54.600 So if you have Amazon prime, you can link it to your Twitch.

06:13:57.140 It's a quick, free, easy way to support the show every month.

06:13:59.940 Yo, Tegan, thank you for the follow.

06:14:01.760 Dirty, thank you for the follow.

06:14:03.740 Chugot, thank you for the follow.

06:14:05.120 Landon, thank you for the follow.

06:14:07.520 Crazy Ace, crazy Ace, thank you for the gifted subs.

06:14:11.700 Smokeable, thank you for the prime.

06:14:12.900 Oki, thank you for the prime.

06:14:14.160 Real deal.

06:14:14.840 Polo, thank you for the tier one.

06:14:15.840 Really appreciate it, man.

06:14:17.220 All right.

06:14:17.800 And then I'm trying to see what we have here.

06:14:19.940 You know what?

06:14:20.780 Guys, if you want, discord.gg slash whatever, check it out.

06:14:24.500 We got a great community over there.

06:14:26.020 And also debateuniversity.com.

06:14:29.220 Andrew has a program called Verbal Combat.

06:14:33.380 And if you want to learn how to become a master debater like Andrew, you can check it out.

06:14:37.720 That's debateuniversity.com.

06:14:40.600 Reminder, we're doing a $20 roast session, $20 TTS for the last few minutes here of the stream.

06:14:47.600 So if you want, get those in.

06:14:49.780 I'm going to let some of these come through.

06:14:52.440 Let me see what we have here.

06:14:53.640 One sec, guys.

06:14:57.420 Oh, okay.

06:14:58.920 Stifler.

06:14:59.720 Stifler donated $19.99.

06:15:02.280 For us?

06:15:04.340 Stifler, ask the panel to rate their looks on a scale from 1 to 10, excluding 7.

06:15:10.020 Do you want to start?

06:15:11.660 Do us the honors?

06:15:12.680 Yeah, 1.

06:15:14.200 1.

06:15:14.660 Okay, cool.

06:15:15.240 I give myself a 5.

06:15:17.460 I give myself a 5.

06:15:18.580 Andrew tends to give himself a 10, so I don't know if there's any debate there on that.

06:15:24.860 We have, come on, wait, what the heck?

06:15:28.400 Oh, we got this one.

06:15:30.140 This one's for you, I think, maybe.

06:15:33.260 Come on in here, all safe.

06:15:36.200 Whoops, I'm naked.

06:15:40.280 Cool.

06:15:41.360 Thank you, dude in the ladies' bathroom, for the message.

06:15:44.680 Appreciate it.

06:15:45.180 Ryan, is that he donated $20?

06:15:47.800 Let this debate be evidence that Andrew does, in fact, match energy.

06:15:52.040 If they're civil with him, he's civil back.

06:15:55.700 Fuck the haters.

06:15:57.240 Ryan, maybe I missed it, but why did you cut Tuesday shows?

06:16:02.220 Tuesday, so, I mean, pretty much, a couple reasons.

06:16:07.800 A couple reasons, primarily just in terms of the longevity.

06:16:13.500 Longevity?

06:16:14.080 Is that a word?

06:16:14.860 I thought you did offer Tuesdays.

06:16:16.220 Longevity is a word.

06:16:17.860 Yes.

06:16:18.300 Well, I thought I mispronounced it.

06:16:19.820 Longevity, I don't know.

06:16:23.280 If I were to continue doing two shows a week of the dating talk, I'd probably, this would

06:16:27.620 be the last year of doing the show, and then I'd be done with it.

06:16:31.300 I think I can continue the show indefinitely if I do it just once a week, so I know some

06:16:38.220 of you looked forward to the two shows a week, but I just thought, hey, you know, one show

06:16:42.240 a week's a little more feasible, so that's why the decision was made.

06:16:46.500 And not to rule out that it couldn't, we could return to doing Tuesday shows two shows a

06:16:53.140 week, too.

06:16:53.740 You're going to eat it?

06:16:54.720 Pour him in.

06:16:55.380 Oh, wait, what?

06:16:56.120 Pour him in.

06:16:56.660 Pour him in.

06:16:57.480 Pour him in.

06:16:58.180 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

06:16:58.760 I did agree that I would fucking do it.

06:17:00.620 I'm not going to break my word.

06:17:01.600 All right.

06:17:02.460 Did he?

06:17:02.960 I did.

06:17:03.500 I agreed to you.

06:17:04.160 I would do it.

06:17:05.020 Here, let me hide this.

06:17:06.800 After they pour it in, though.

06:17:08.140 They have to pour it in.

06:17:08.740 They have to pour it in.

06:17:09.240 How much do they have to pour in?

06:17:10.740 I want to see $1,000 of pour it in.

06:17:12.680 $20.

06:17:13.120 Oh, no.

06:17:13.600 $20 chats just roasting the shit out of Brian.

06:17:15.940 Hey!

06:17:16.940 Roast the shit out of Brian.

06:17:17.920 Out of me?

06:17:19.040 Yeah.

06:17:19.340 That's...

06:17:19.740 Damn.

06:17:20.440 Dude, if I got to suffer, you got to suffer.

06:17:22.960 Wait, hold on.

06:17:23.580 I'm going to let these come in, though.

06:17:25.540 Wait, what?

06:17:26.040 Did I...

06:17:26.260 Oh, I paused it.

06:17:26.920 That's why.

06:17:28.400 JJ gave donated $20.

06:17:30.800 Put this in the YouTube by mistake.

06:17:33.600 We're at in Montana cause.

06:17:35.200 I bet you, you stay in Bozeman or Missoula.

06:17:37.480 We don't claim you.

06:17:38.520 Number 406, hashtag NativePride.

06:17:44.000 Graffito tagged donated $20.

06:17:46.560 If you don't eat the pineapple pizza, you lose...

06:17:49.140 I've been sufficiently social shamed in taking a bite of this pineapple pizza.

06:17:53.120 You don't have to.

06:17:55.040 I don't have to.

06:17:56.160 Yep.

06:17:57.080 But now I'm kind of hungry.

06:17:58.060 Is this...

06:17:58.880 Before, I have a question.

06:18:00.900 Sure.

06:18:01.040 The only reason you're getting this is because mystery bailed.

06:18:05.960 Andrew checks in the mail.

06:18:07.700 I like this approach, Brixen.

06:18:10.480 Keep up the good work.

06:18:11.920 Brixen.

06:18:12.860 That's my nickname.

06:18:14.400 Oh.

06:18:15.480 DDD 314 donated $20.

06:18:19.380 Strong men have created such a great, safe, and free country that it has created bored,

06:18:24.080 useless women like this who contributes nothing but destruction.

06:18:27.940 If world was in peril, these ideals would cease.

06:18:31.040 Roast Brian.

06:18:31.600 We shouldn't use love kits because a love kit is not effective in determining between actual

06:18:50.760 love and other causes of penetrative trauma like accidentally grabbing the wrong size gingerly

06:18:56.120 in the dark.

06:18:58.400 I'm not sure.

06:18:59.280 What is the love kit?

06:19:00.560 I don't know.

06:19:01.440 Okay.

06:19:01.900 Great.

06:19:02.420 I'm not alone in that.

06:19:05.960 All right.

06:19:07.300 Let's see here.

06:19:09.300 Sorry, guys.

06:19:09.900 One second.

06:19:10.280 While I get these pulled up.

06:19:11.600 Are you, what are you looking for, Blake?

06:19:17.520 I've asked guests before, but perhaps she may know.

06:19:21.020 Does liberalism cause mental illness or is it the other way around?

06:19:24.760 On top of the.

06:19:25.800 I mean, I've said before I'm not a liberal.

06:19:29.980 Oh.

06:19:33.380 Leftist.

06:19:34.600 Leftist, yes.

06:19:35.340 I guess it depends on how we're defining liberalism.

06:19:39.760 I don't know why there's this delay.

06:19:42.900 Andrew, thoughts on the upcoming release of Red Dead Redemption 3?

06:19:47.020 I haven't seen a release date on that.

06:19:49.640 Yo, Chris, thank you so much for the, uh, I don't know what is going on.

06:19:55.300 Eight inches and thick donated $20.

06:19:57.360 Eight inches.

06:19:57.760 When you have a society full of Andrews, you get a first world country.

06:20:01.940 When you have a society full of feminists, you get population collapse, inflation, mental

06:20:07.720 health crisis, et cetera.

06:20:13.480 Pizza sauce donated $20.

06:20:15.740 Thank you, pizza.

06:20:16.440 As a conservative myself with traditional values, Andrew Wilson is the absolute worst

06:20:22.040 debater there is on all these platforms.

06:20:24.980 He is an embarrassment.

06:20:26.460 Okay.

06:20:27.680 Olivia donated $20.

06:20:29.180 I'm sorry, Jess, my hate and insecurities got the best of me just like high school did.

06:20:37.460 Who is Jess?

06:20:39.460 I'm not sure.

06:20:40.760 Okay.

06:20:45.580 No donated $20.

06:20:47.980 Brian, what's your burrito body count?

06:20:50.300 I've had probably a thousand burritos my entire life.

06:20:59.180 Otis Driftwood donated $30.

06:21:00.300 Oh, Otis.

06:21:01.260 Good to see you, man.

06:21:02.420 Thank you.

06:21:02.860 Is that Canadian pineapple, Brian, you damn syrup lover?

06:21:06.520 Eat it.

06:21:07.100 It is.

06:21:08.120 Eat it.

06:21:08.740 It's Hawaiian style pizza.

06:21:11.180 Hawaiian style pizza.

06:21:15.560 There's a weird delay on the Hawaiian doing that.

06:21:17.860 If anyone wants to know the definition of catfishing, check the thumbnail for this video and then check

06:21:23.860 the people in the studio.

06:21:25.420 I promise I'm only talking about Andrew.

06:21:28.100 Brian, show us that dumpy.

06:21:29.840 Whoa.

06:21:30.640 That's crazy.

06:21:31.720 I mean, my picture that you took was already edited and it seemed like you edited it more.

06:21:37.940 I appreciate that you didn't do me dirty, though.

06:21:39.740 We used generative fill in Adobe Photoshop, boosted the exposure, boosted the highlights, boosted

06:21:48.840 the mid-tones.

06:21:50.060 I think my eyelashes, too.

06:21:51.520 We helped out a little bit.

06:21:53.480 Nothing crazy, though.

06:21:54.720 All right.

06:21:57.160 Edwin Nunders Incorporated in $80, $20.69.

06:22:01.740 Andrew, pineapple on pizza puts hair on your arms.

06:22:05.940 Eat a couple.

06:22:06.600 JK, that stuff is disgusting.

06:22:10.080 I had to switch to Marlboro Black 100s due to price so that way I can super chat and TTS

06:22:15.820 to support you.

06:22:17.840 Edwin, thank you so much, man.

06:22:19.040 Lulu donated $20.

06:22:20.960 Feminist arguments all boil down to don't hurt a girl's feelings.

06:22:26.140 Their reality and logic are based around not hurting a girl's feelings.

06:22:31.100 Lulu, thank you for that.

06:22:34.000 Rachel Wilson donated $20.

06:22:36.600 If you're an ex-Marxist feminist, why did you get married?

06:22:40.600 Isn't that an oppressive institution?

06:22:43.120 You want to respond to that real quick?

06:22:44.720 I mean, at the time I got married, I definitely wasn't a Marxist feminist.

06:22:48.720 At that time, I would say I was more liberal, and I wouldn't even have identified as feminist.

06:22:54.000 All right.

06:22:55.300 We've got Graffito.

06:22:58.980 Graffito tagged donated $20.

06:23:00.980 Brian, just got to say, you really pulled out all the stops moderating today.

06:23:07.040 He worked the eerie heart.

06:23:09.820 Is the sarcasm coming through on this?

06:23:12.360 Keep up the hard work, man.

06:23:14.180 It is appreciated.

06:23:15.320 I mean, look.

06:23:16.500 Everyone was...

06:23:17.740 It was a pretty respectful debate.

06:23:20.320 There wasn't much interruption for the most part.

06:23:23.400 You guys let each other talk.

06:23:24.760 What else is there to really do besides sit here and eat pizza?

06:23:29.140 While you guys talked about necrophilia and...

06:23:33.540 Have you had to moderate debates a lot?

06:23:37.100 Yeah, he's moderated a few.

06:23:38.160 I've moderated, but it's better to just leave it open.

06:23:41.540 You want me to...

06:23:41.940 No, I mean, have you had to step in a lot?

06:23:45.780 Are there debates where it's been pretty bad?

06:23:48.620 I mean, when I'm moderating or hosting the dating talk panels, yes.

06:23:52.660 But when it's just two people talking and they're conducting themselves in good faith,

06:23:57.740 I'd pretty much just sit there most of the time.

06:24:01.960 I don't want to be like these debates on CNN or the presidential debates

06:24:07.460 where they're just changing the topic every three minutes.

06:24:10.280 I'd like to let you guys just open convo, let it be fleshed out.

06:24:14.260 I was just curious if there had been really heated debates where you needed to step in.

06:24:17.120 Not 1v1 debates where I had...

06:24:19.980 No, no.

06:24:20.800 But perhaps in the future, who knows what the cards hold.

06:24:24.880 Elias donated $20.

06:24:26.300 Is this woman for real?

06:24:29.000 Men should be hunky-dory raising children that aren't theirs.

06:24:32.620 Benefit to the community?

06:24:34.440 So any random guy is eligible to join and claim resources?

06:24:38.800 So what community is there?

06:24:42.000 Shniko zero for donated $20.

06:24:45.180 Fine.

06:24:46.120 For the pineapple pizza.

06:24:48.120 Andrew, your man milkers are almost as big as Brian's dumpling.

06:24:51.980 Shave your arms.

06:24:53.640 What the?

06:24:54.180 How much a bench?

06:24:55.860 Love you boys.

06:24:56.740 Are you benching, Andrew?

06:24:58.320 Are you benching?

06:24:59.040 A little bit.

06:24:59.600 Vader underscore sent by donated $20.

06:25:02.300 Vader, thank you.

06:25:03.060 If it wasn't for patriarchy, we wouldn't have the two greatest media of all time.

06:25:07.480 Ah.

06:25:08.140 Anime.

06:25:08.540 Anime.

06:25:09.760 Not one step back.

06:25:11.580 God bless.

06:25:12.380 Is anime from the patriarchy or?

06:25:17.640 Andrew killed it effortlessly.

06:25:19.700 Brian, is this your aunt or where did you find this woman?

06:25:23.240 She is really annoying and lame and ill-equipped to debate my retarded cousin, let alone Andrew

06:25:28.100 Wilson.

06:25:30.460 Noah donated $20.

06:25:32.280 Thank you.

06:25:32.540 Thank you, Noah.

06:25:32.780 Andrew stopped being a pussy and eat a pizza like a man.

06:25:36.320 Blew up the EUU.

06:25:38.360 Ah.

06:25:38.800 Thank you, Noah.

06:25:40.920 Appreciate it.

06:25:42.340 We have a few more coming through here.

06:25:44.720 Five-dillionaire bachelor coming in.

06:25:47.360 Can I go to the bathroom?

06:25:48.840 No.

06:25:49.440 No.

06:25:50.160 No.

06:25:50.440 I think we're about to read.

06:25:51.580 Four-dillionaire underscore bachelor donated $20.

06:25:55.020 Since we're gaslighting men into accepting biological cuckery, I suppose this airhead was happily

06:26:01.360 married to a guy who gave another woman and her children all his money.

06:26:05.260 Jess Gerald donated $20.

06:26:09.940 So, to summarize, she's Marxist, but not really.

06:26:14.740 She's feminist, but not really.

06:26:17.220 And every woman who woke me up with lip love is a predatory savage.

06:26:21.600 What was this?

06:26:22.980 Where are the feminist champions?

06:26:26.460 Pindav donated $20.

06:26:28.900 Brian, do a non-dating show for a second one during the week.

06:26:32.740 Something less stressful to book.

06:26:35.740 Shake it up.

06:26:36.720 Yeah.

06:26:37.440 Whatever Wednesday.

06:26:39.700 Whatever Wednesday.

06:26:40.700 Maybe that'll be the thing.

06:26:41.700 Gambit 90 donated $20.

06:26:43.960 The only truth she spoke tonight was her rating of one.

06:26:47.820 I should sue for that thumbnail.

06:26:50.080 Straight fraud catfishing us with that photo of her.

06:26:53.000 First off, how dare you.

06:26:57.380 Double agent donated $19.99.

06:27:00.560 Are you really a feminist, or is that just your excuse for still being alone at 40?

06:27:06.080 You're not 40, right?

06:27:07.540 I am not 40, no.

06:27:08.820 You're 36?

06:27:11.060 I'm 38.

06:27:11.660 38.

06:27:13.040 That's not 40.

06:27:14.560 Please.

06:27:15.800 We...

06:27:16.800 Whoa.

06:27:18.060 That cup came out of nowhere.

06:27:19.940 Guys, be accurate.

06:27:21.520 Be precise.

06:27:22.180 Don't be...

06:27:23.920 Two years is a...

06:27:24.920 That's a big...

06:27:25.820 It doesn't bother you.

06:27:26.700 That's a lot of time.

06:27:27.780 Okay.

06:27:28.600 Here, let's do the video reaction.

06:27:30.840 Are you able to hold it for five, ten minutes, or do you really got it?

06:27:35.040 I mean, yeah, but I do want to go soon.

06:27:38.300 To the bathroom?

06:27:39.100 No, I'm tired.

06:27:40.180 Oh, yeah.

06:27:40.500 We're, like, going to wrap up.

06:27:41.760 I just...

06:27:42.740 But do you want to use the bathroom first, or...

06:27:45.240 No, you can go ahead.

06:27:45.600 Here, go full screen, please.

06:27:48.320 All right.

06:27:48.960 Go ahead and...

06:27:49.800 Make this conversation less boring.

06:27:51.620 Go ahead.

06:27:52.520 I'm waiting.

06:27:53.320 How often do you think about the Roman Empire, Brian?

06:27:55.840 Is that your best effort?

06:27:57.360 Sure.

06:27:57.920 In any case, you're not particularly adding to the conversation.

06:28:00.500 You've been disrespectful this entire time.

06:28:02.460 You're entitled.

06:28:03.200 You're rude.

06:28:03.680 You have TikTok brain.

06:28:04.760 You cannot stay focused.

06:28:06.060 We've only been live for an hour and a half or so.

06:28:08.720 I'm going to ask you to leave.

06:28:09.820 Okay.

06:28:10.140 So get up.

06:28:10.840 Get the fuck out.

06:28:12.360 Hmm.

06:28:13.560 What-ass podcast, bitch?

06:28:14.640 You fucking do OnlyFans.

06:28:15.720 You fucking degenerate.

06:28:16.740 Ugh!

06:28:17.280 As if!

06:28:18.140 Ugh.

06:28:18.440 Hello, and welcome to my series, As If, your feminist companion product to the Whatever

06:28:23.340 Podcast.

06:28:23.720 As someone who has been debating feminism on TikTok for two years now, I can see there's

06:28:29.820 a very unique setup when it comes to men holding spaces centered around anti-feminist, red pill,

06:28:37.060 incel, or heavily religious themes.

06:28:39.480 There are many men who hold these spaces so that they can have access to abused women.

06:28:45.220 I think we can all agree on the setup of the Whatever Podcast employees.

06:28:48.280 They'll have the host, some red pillars, maybe some conservative talking heads, and then maybe

06:28:53.020 some religious figures.

06:28:54.400 And these are all against OF and Instagram models.

06:28:57.380 The only time they have women outside of that context is if they're conservative, like Candace

06:29:02.080 Owens or Lila Rose.

06:29:03.780 And obviously they have this structure because their arguments will go unchallenged or be poorly

06:29:08.420 challenged.

06:29:09.460 And I'm not saying Instagram or OF models aren't competent, smart people.

06:29:13.620 If you don't have the experience, if you don't know the arguments, and if you don't have

06:29:18.040 the information, you're just not going to do well.

06:29:20.980 The only exception they have to this rule is Farah Kalitti.

06:29:23.980 And our girl brings a smoke.

06:29:26.200 I honestly don't care about the context of the video that I'm stitching because Brian's

06:29:29.780 statements made it irrelevant.

06:29:31.340 He actually made a moral claim by saying because she's an OF model, she's a degenerate.

06:29:35.760 Did I say that?

06:29:36.340 No, I said degenerate.

06:29:38.820 I didn't say because she's an OF model.

06:29:40.360 Oh yeah, that's true.

06:29:41.300 He just said you do a OF fucking degenerate.

06:29:44.620 That implies.

06:29:45.540 And if you're an Instagram model or a sex worker, these men consider you to be on the

06:29:50.560 bottom rung of the social hierarchy.

06:29:52.820 However, if you're on this podcast, it's obvious to see that you've actually claimed

06:29:57.040 some level of notoriety or economic success.

06:29:59.620 And within the red pillar, there is a special type of anger because not only do they view

06:30:05.220 themselves as the oppressed gender, but now they see what they view as the most degenerate

06:30:10.300 social class of women, even achieving high economic success, which obviously they think

06:30:15.580 is undeserving.

06:30:16.360 And I think why so many men are interested in this content is because it not only allows

06:30:21.140 them to cosplay masculinity, but essentially to correct an injustice within their own mind.

06:30:26.640 And I think traditional masculinity is very much centered around male supremacy.

06:30:30.620 So they've manufactured this system where it's very unlikely that they are going to lose

06:30:35.100 as a way to prop up a facade of intellectual superiority.

06:30:39.340 And on top of that, they get to humiliate and degrade the undeserving privileged class

06:30:44.580 of women in a way they view that is very justified.

06:30:47.880 And as someone who has been in spaces like this with men like this, not only do they justify

06:30:53.920 the behavior, the biggest red flag is that they enjoy it.

06:31:00.200 Okay.

06:31:01.420 A couple of questions there.

06:31:03.260 Sure.

06:31:04.140 I think I stepped away when you specifically referenced this term abuse.

06:31:08.880 Yeah.

06:31:09.340 So the clip that, which, and by the way, you said you didn't care about the context at

06:31:14.620 all.

06:31:15.220 So context doesn't matter to you.

06:31:17.040 So she could have just like stabbed a family member and I call her a degenerate and I'm in

06:31:21.640 the wrong.

06:31:22.740 When I was referencing the system of abuse, I wasn't talking about that specific instance,

06:31:27.780 but how the podcast is structured.

06:31:30.280 You were reacting to the clip and saying that that was abusive.

06:31:34.860 Intrigue of the, no, of the overall strategy that the, that the podcast employs.

06:31:40.700 Sure.

06:31:40.980 So that clip in specific is not abusive or abuse.

06:31:45.660 No, I wasn't referencing that clip as abusive.

06:31:48.360 The specific aspect.

06:31:50.220 What is abusive about the show?

06:31:51.840 I, when we talk about when men hold red pillar spaces, is this a red pill space, red pill

06:31:59.400 in cell manosphere, which one of the, okay.

06:32:01.760 Which one of those am I?

06:32:03.120 Um, I, I would say red pill.

06:32:05.800 What, how do you define red pill?

06:32:08.220 Uh, that women are the privileged gender in society.

06:32:11.000 That's red pill.

06:32:12.140 That's what red pill philosophy is, is that women are the privileged gender.

06:32:15.440 Women are the privileged gender.

06:32:17.820 Right.

06:32:18.880 Yeah.

06:32:19.120 Okay.

06:32:19.240 I'll grant that.

06:32:20.160 I would dispute that though.

06:32:21.740 That, that women are the privileged gender or that's what red pill is.

06:32:26.340 What would you consider red pill?

06:32:27.580 Red pill is just a series of descriptors that are trying to identify the distinction between

06:32:33.080 the way women and men act.

06:32:34.500 Um, so what is abusive about the show?

06:32:42.360 Um, I think, uh, when you have a panel to discuss certain issues and then, um, kind of

06:32:51.820 try to humiliate them based on their career choices or based on certain aspects of moral

06:32:59.320 prescriptions, that that is, is a form of, uh, harm, abuse.

06:33:04.500 Um, is, is anytime you disagree with somebody, is that always you humiliating them?

06:33:10.300 No.

06:33:10.740 So what would be like an example of humiliation?

06:33:13.000 I mean, I think calling, um, uh, essentially when you have these spaces to discuss certain

06:33:24.260 aspects and then, um, essentially categorize someone as, um, a degenerate, um, that.

06:33:33.260 You said you didn't have a problem with the clip.

06:33:35.580 I, I mean, that specific space, I, I think misogyny is a form of abuse.

06:33:40.580 And so when you're holding a space to be misogynistic and experience hostility, um, towards women,

06:33:49.340 that, that, that is the main purpose of it.

06:33:51.340 Can we define misogyny first?

06:33:53.660 Yeah.

06:33:54.020 Uh, misogyny is the, uh, hostility towards women and girls for stepping outside of their

06:33:59.420 patriarchal prescribed gender.

06:34:01.100 So what if they don't step out of their patriarchal prescribed structure, but you just hate women,

06:34:09.100 but they're like falling into the patriarchal, uh, expectation of women, but you still hate

06:34:14.820 women.

06:34:15.280 That would not be misogyny.

06:34:16.940 I think it would be hard to quantify like how someone hates women.

06:34:20.960 I hate women.

06:34:22.000 I hate, just saying I hate.

06:34:23.480 Do you have to hate all women?

06:34:25.440 Um, let's say they do.

06:34:26.680 Wait, I have a question for you.

06:34:29.200 What if like a leftist male hated like conservative women who were pick me's and who were like

06:34:35.580 adhering to patriarchal expectations of women?

06:34:38.900 Would that be misogyny?

06:34:40.620 Um, no, the only exception I would give is if, if they wish them aspects of patriarchal

06:34:46.400 violence.

06:34:46.740 So if like a leftist creator, what is, wait, what is patriarchal violence?

06:34:51.480 Um, like rape, great.

06:34:53.740 That couldn't occur under a matriarchy.

06:34:55.700 No, that could also occur between two women.

06:34:57.600 Yeah.

06:34:57.780 Couldn't.

06:34:58.420 Um, well, grape is a, a form of men to assert domination over women.

06:35:04.700 Unless it's women doing it to women.

06:35:06.460 Right.

06:35:06.800 But we, I'm sure we, we both agree that, that rape is a gender based crime.

06:35:11.020 Let's try to use grape.

06:35:11.600 I'm sorry.

06:35:12.060 Grape is a gender based crime.

06:35:13.180 No, I don't agree that that's a gender based crime.

06:35:15.460 Um, I mean, we, we even discussed earlier, like within the military, that women are going

06:35:19.780 to be more likely to experience grave.

06:35:22.000 Yeah.

06:35:22.520 But that's a different claim than it's gender based.

06:35:25.540 Gender based means it affects like pregnancy is gender based.

06:35:30.080 That's a gender based thing.

06:35:31.680 That would be a gender based claim because women and girls are more disproportionately likely

06:35:35.840 to experience it.

06:35:36.680 That's literally the definition of it.

06:35:38.780 So when you say gender based, it just means more of.

06:35:41.140 Um, uh, essentially it happens to someone because they are a specific gender or it disproportionately

06:35:47.460 happens to a specific gender.

06:35:49.260 Okay.

06:35:49.660 So by that definition, uh, yeah, I'll say that.

06:35:53.780 Well, no, actually I won't even grant that.

06:35:56.560 So even by that definition, no, I don't believe that.

06:35:58.860 But I don't want to delineate because I do want to go soon.

06:36:00.660 Yeah.

06:36:00.960 We'll keep it focused.

06:36:01.340 So I just want to, I am keeping it focused.

06:36:03.780 I just wanted to clarify, I do think if a leftist creator wished grape upon a conservative

06:36:08.920 woman, that would count as a misogyny because it is a form of patriarchal gender based violence.

06:36:14.660 Okay.

06:36:15.780 So misogyny is not just hatred of women.

06:36:20.160 There's other qualifiers.

06:36:21.940 I think the hatred of women is just a, not really a good working definition because it

06:36:27.120 centers the perspective of the person rather than centers the experience of women and girls.

06:36:33.120 And then I think we need to see that it also acts as a policing force to police women and

06:36:39.180 girls behavior to conform to a specific gender prescription.

06:36:42.940 Okay.

06:36:43.280 So we're using a lot of buzzwords here.

06:36:45.840 We're talking about oppression, abuse, humiliation, uh, degrading.

06:36:50.220 These are things that you allege, uh, I do or Andrew does.

06:36:54.660 I think the space in general is a misogynistic space.

06:36:57.980 Yeah.

06:36:58.300 It's a misogynist.

06:36:59.360 Okay.

06:36:59.580 So what is an example of, uh, something done or said that was misogynistic on this podcast?

06:37:06.460 I mean, I, I, I mean, what, do you want me to pull up tape and point to it?

06:37:09.940 Just, I mean, just one thing.

06:37:12.640 Um, I mean, do you, would you say that originally you did have, uh, like OF girls and, and Instagram

06:37:19.600 models?

06:37:21.220 What do you mean originally?

06:37:22.700 I mean, I don't know if that's your guidelines now, but guidelines, I mean, so who you're

06:37:27.880 looking for as, um, dating show, you know, a part of your show, like who, are you saying

06:37:34.020 you can only be misogynistic towards OF girls?

06:37:37.020 No, not at all.

06:37:37.640 So I don't understand your question as it pertains to my question demographic when you're

06:37:42.080 having guests on, how would that pertain to misogyny?

06:37:44.520 When a woman who doesn't do OF can be victim of misogyny?

06:37:49.400 Why does it?

06:37:49.820 Right.

06:37:49.980 Because obviously OF and women who engage in sex work under patriarchy are seen as undesirable.

06:37:56.080 So having that specific clientele is meant to shame and humiliate them for, for being

06:38:01.000 on OF or so on and so forth.

06:38:03.240 Yeah.

06:38:03.400 So I'll answer the question of all the guests we've ever had.

06:38:05.860 The representation of women who do OF, it's about 15%.

06:38:10.020 So some shows there's more, some shows there's, there's none.

06:38:14.000 And we still do have OF girls who come on the show.

06:38:17.300 I think it's actually decreased a little bit.

06:38:19.600 There was perhaps a period where the representation of OF models on the show, models, was higher,

06:38:26.960 but now it's maybe a bit lower, but they still come on the show.

06:38:30.620 And then we have normal girls who come on the show.

06:38:32.260 We have women in college.

06:38:33.560 We have women who are professionals, women in the hair, excuse me, healthcare field.

06:38:38.480 So we have all kinds of different women who come on the show.

06:38:41.800 I don't think you've really answered my question though.

06:38:45.740 What did I not answer?

06:38:47.600 So you were asking me, well, what are the kinds of women you bring on the show?

06:38:51.260 I've just answered it.

06:38:52.060 Yeah, I asked for specific demographics.

06:38:53.240 And I do think-

06:38:54.080 So how is the show misogynistic?

06:38:56.320 Can you give me one example?

06:38:57.600 Well, that is one example.

06:39:00.020 Simply by virtue of bringing only fans, some OnlyFans girls on the show.

06:39:03.420 I'm meant to essentially shame and demonize sex work and saying that, you know, you're a degenerate,

06:39:09.720 you're a low class because this is how you engage.

06:39:13.840 I categorically reject your presumption there that that's the reason we bring them on the show,

06:39:21.840 to humiliate or degrade them.

06:39:24.080 Okay.

06:39:25.160 So your premise is flawed.

06:39:28.260 What happened-

06:39:28.660 Brian doesn't, he doesn't actually think that they're necessarily degenerates or things like that because they do sex work.

06:39:35.360 That's me.

06:39:37.140 I mean, I think it was definitely implied by his statement.

06:39:40.580 Which statement?

06:39:41.560 You degenerate, you do OF.

06:39:43.060 Yeah, but I mean, they were trading insults, right?

06:39:45.560 Like you don't always mean what you say when you're trading insults.

06:39:48.080 To say just kidding is kind of my point.

06:39:51.800 Well, I mean, here's the other, I mean, there's, this is why context matters.

06:39:57.620 The girl was, I suppose there were other factors that led me to make perhaps assumptions about that specific girl.

06:40:06.340 Well, she appeared to have possibly been on some kind of drugs, possibly, blasted in, you know, tattoos, had a weirdo,

06:40:19.360 I don't know if this pertains to her being a degenerate, had a weirdo boyfriend who was like acting really weird.

06:40:25.720 Probably doesn't pertain to degeneracy really, but yeah.

06:40:29.960 Well, that was the specific context that you gave.

06:40:32.240 Yeah, so she had just gotten done trolling the show.

06:40:36.220 She came on in bad faith.

06:40:37.840 She wasn't paying attention.

06:40:39.340 She was being rude to me.

06:40:40.920 I was extremely patient with her.

06:40:42.820 I'd reached a point in the show where I was like, hey, I'm not dealing with this girl anymore.

06:40:47.440 I gave her plenty of chances.

06:40:49.060 She intentionally came on in bad faith and to troll the show.

06:40:52.500 I was in the process of kicking her off.

06:40:54.400 As I kicked her off in a bit of an abrasive way, although I think it was warranted,

06:40:59.360 she says something along the lines of, good luck with your dead-ass podcast, bro.

06:41:03.760 And then that's when I say, dead-ass podcast, who the hell, the implication, who the hell are you?

06:41:09.700 You do OnlyFans, you fucking degenerate.

06:41:12.440 So I think in the situation where somebody has been insulting towards you,

06:41:17.700 you might just be like, look, just take it on the chin.

06:41:20.400 You just, you know, don't sink down to their level.

06:41:22.380 Well, sometimes you're going to feel compelled to insult somebody back when they've just insulted you.

06:41:29.040 So I think context does matter.

06:41:30.800 Perhaps you think it doesn't.

06:41:32.440 I mean, sure.

06:41:33.000 If you would have been like, you know, said something different, like, great, you know,

06:41:36.960 fuck off, asshole.

06:41:37.700 Have a great day.

06:41:38.480 Fuck off, idiot.

06:41:39.380 Yeah.

06:41:39.820 You know, something like that.

06:41:41.340 But degenerate is...

06:41:42.780 Well, and the degenerate was attached to the OnlyFans label.

06:41:48.360 And so it's not her behavior towards you.

06:41:50.240 It's not her regression.

06:41:51.280 It's just the fact that she's an OnlyFans model.

06:41:54.600 That makes her a degenerate.

06:41:55.800 I mean, isn't the basis of, like, insulting somebody...

06:41:58.460 Like, you might...

06:41:59.940 Isn't insulting somebody, the idea there is...

06:42:03.680 And I try to avoid it as much as I can.

06:42:05.600 The idea is to put in a dig that hurts them.

06:42:09.420 Like, that's the point of an insult.

06:42:10.560 Okay.

06:42:11.000 It's to say something that will be hurtful to them.

06:42:13.640 And so I could...

06:42:15.180 Like, couldn't you say the same thing about, like, if you were to make a commentary about

06:42:20.140 somebody's physical appearance?

06:42:21.320 Like, oftentimes, that's how people will insult somebody, is by saying something about their

06:42:25.160 physical appearance.

06:42:25.880 Okay.

06:42:26.940 Okay.

06:42:28.000 I'm sorry.

06:42:28.740 Is there a question?

06:42:29.940 Yeah.

06:42:30.260 So it's like, you're saying I'm making some sort of, like, moral...

06:42:34.680 I don't understand your objection to the...

06:42:37.140 Yeah, that the fact that she's an OnlyFans model is what makes her a degenerate, not

06:42:40.020 her behavior towards you.

06:42:41.080 Yeah, it's a component of it.

06:42:42.100 Not her trolling, not anything else, just this only one component.

06:42:46.500 Yeah.

06:42:46.720 I mean, I could have used all kinds of other words.

06:42:48.460 I could have called her a whore.

06:42:49.740 I could have called her a prostitute.

06:42:51.700 I could have used all other kinds of words.

06:42:53.660 I think degenerate was actually a pretty tame word.

06:42:57.480 It's not the word that, necessarily, that you're using.

06:43:00.000 It's in what the label is applied.

06:43:02.100 If you would have been like, oh, you're on drugs, you fucking degenerate, then I would

06:43:06.480 have said, like, oh, he's calling her a degenerate because she's a drug user.

06:43:09.500 But you said you're a degenerate because you're an OnlyFans model.

06:43:12.960 So in what scenario can one call somebody a degenerate?

06:43:17.860 Like, what if there's evidence of them being a degenerate?

06:43:20.600 I mean, I don't think being a sex worker innately makes you a degenerate.

06:43:24.180 What makes somebody a degenerate?

06:43:26.520 From her view, nothing.

06:43:28.140 I mean, I guess, I don't know.

06:43:30.100 Do you want me to look up what degenerate means?

06:43:31.400 But if it means without morals.

06:43:33.380 Without morals?

06:43:33.920 If the insult is originating from me, wouldn't...

06:43:36.900 So, I'm sorry.

06:43:37.200 Wait, hold on, hold on.

06:43:37.640 Why were you calling her a degenerate?

06:43:38.840 Hold on, hold on.

06:43:39.420 If the insult originates from me, wouldn't it be my worldview that would instruct the insult

06:43:48.380 that I opt to use in the situation?

06:43:50.960 Like, I get that you don't think that, like, letting 10 dudes bang you in a day is degenerate.

06:43:56.740 But, like, maybe I do.

06:43:58.000 So, like, wouldn't it just be my preference to say, yeah, she's a fucking degenerate.

06:44:03.180 So, are you agreeing that sex workers are degenerates?

06:44:07.160 I suppose it would depend.

06:44:08.900 You'd have to give me, like, what does she do?

06:44:12.460 Because sex work is this nebulous term that is, like, it can mean anywhere from a woman who

06:44:17.820 is a prostitute...

06:44:18.000 Well, her only fans.

06:44:19.680 Hold on, let me finish.

06:44:21.120 A woman who's a prostitute who sleeps with 10 different men a day to a woman who takes

06:44:26.080 lingerie photos.

06:44:28.000 So, are all sex workers degenerates?

06:44:31.700 I don't know.

06:44:32.800 Maybe, maybe not.

06:44:34.540 Andrew might say, yes, all of them are degenerates.

06:44:37.520 I'm sure he would, but again...

06:44:38.540 I might say, like, a woman who takes, like, lingerie...

06:44:41.660 Like, who's, like, in, like, traditional calendar lingerie model.

06:44:46.600 Is she a degenerate?

06:44:47.900 What does her being an only fans model have to do with you calling her a degenerate?

06:44:52.540 Uh, well, I didn't have a great opportunity to review her only fans work, but, like, I

06:44:58.460 looked at her Twitter beforehand, and I've, luckily, it hasn't been burned into the back

06:45:03.500 of my retina.

06:45:04.440 But there were some degenerate things, for example, on her Twitter.

06:45:07.800 She was sticking certain objects that I don't think belong in certain holes.

06:45:12.600 It honestly doesn't matter anyway.

06:45:14.280 It doesn't...

06:45:14.800 Because the point is, the point is just to say that he can think that she's a degenerate,

06:45:20.140 and probably does think she's a degenerate, probably thinks sex work is degenerate.

06:45:24.080 But that doesn't prove that he brought her on the show to shame her for being a degenerate.

06:45:27.340 But that's the problem.

06:45:29.440 I mean, that's the whole problem.

06:45:30.260 I mean, I would think that if you do have this common demographic within your panel, and

06:45:37.200 when, you know, there is conflict that arises, that that's what you highlight in terms of,

06:45:42.100 oh, you're just this, you degenerate, that that can be a reasonable strategy, even if it's

06:45:46.700 only 15%.

06:45:47.960 I mean, didn't you have this debate with RC that this is his issue with the whatever podcast

06:45:53.200 is that it features sex work models?

06:45:56.440 Yeah, and his channel does too.

06:45:58.840 So the thing...

06:45:59.740 Right, so then if we agree that you do feature sex work models in OnlyFans, that is a common

06:46:05.560 demographic that comes on your panel.

06:46:09.200 It doesn't mean it's coming on for the purpose of you doing anything to them because, or to

06:46:14.960 start a conflict where you call them a degenerate.

06:46:17.260 Well, I mean, in that aspect, it did.

06:46:19.260 And that was the context behind the insult.

06:46:22.660 You know, again, it wasn't any other behavior.

06:46:24.680 That doesn't show the purpose.

06:46:25.980 You are an OnlyFans.

06:46:26.860 That doesn't show the purpose of them coming on, though, is for that to happen.

06:46:31.040 That's the problem you have.

06:46:32.420 Like, you can say, Brian, you think they're a degenerate, and I'm sussing out that your

06:46:36.840 motivation is that you only bring these degenerates on so that you can call them degenerates.

06:46:41.760 Okay, that's fair, but it doesn't...

06:46:42.980 We'll even show hate and hostility towards them.

06:46:44.920 Yeah, but that doesn't actually prove the intent that he was bringing these women on so that

06:46:49.580 he can somehow do something bad to them.

06:46:51.840 I mean, I don't have, like, a computer with all clips where I can give you examples.

06:46:56.520 Even if you did, though.

06:46:57.740 Like, let's say you had, let's say 50 or...

06:47:00.520 Fuck, let's say 75%.

06:47:02.400 You got in a fight with 75% of them and called 75% of them, and you got pissed at them, degenerates.

06:47:08.260 And that still wouldn't prove that you brought them on specifically to call them degenerates.

06:47:14.020 Like, that doesn't follow.

06:47:15.900 I mean, obviously, this is one example, but if I had clips of other examples of showing

06:47:20.080 hate or hostility, especially within these contexts...

06:47:24.280 Isn't hostility just like they don't like it, or it doesn't make them feel good, and they

06:47:29.560 would feel hostility?

06:47:30.920 I mean, hostility can be aggression, it can be change in tone, it can be yelling, it can

06:47:36.840 be talking over people, it can be steamrolling, I mean, it can be a multitude of things.

06:47:45.700 So, what's interesting to me, though, if we've had, I think, I don't recall the exact

06:47:52.260 numbers, but I think I said it was, like, 15% of all the panelists have done OF.

06:47:58.900 I think that puts the number at, like, 150 to maybe 200 OF girls have been on the show.

06:48:04.020 So, I think I've maybe called...

06:48:07.380 That might be the only girl of the perhaps 200 OF models who we've had on the show, who

06:48:14.660 I've called degenerate.

06:48:16.180 So, you're saying this one instance...

06:48:17.500 Do you take men off the street?

06:48:21.020 No.

06:48:21.720 What do you mean?

06:48:22.540 The majority...

06:48:23.140 Wait, wait, wait.

06:48:23.700 Hold on, hold on.

06:48:24.140 Okay, sorry.

06:48:24.500 The majority of our guests are pre-booked, and they have typically weeks or months to

06:48:30.240 prepare to come on the show.

06:48:32.200 We don't make...

06:48:33.660 We don't just try to get people off the street.

06:48:36.280 Like, people reach out to us, predominantly, of all the guests that we have on, reach out

06:48:42.100 to us to be on the show.

06:48:43.520 Sure.

06:48:43.740 So, when you are getting people on the show, who are the male counterparts?

06:48:51.400 What do you mean?

06:48:52.520 Like, Chase, Justin Waller, who's...

06:48:56.300 How long...

06:48:56.840 What they...

06:48:58.000 Justin Waller was, like, on the show a year and a half ago or something.

06:49:00.620 I mean, how old is that video?

06:49:02.500 It's mostly just three people.

06:49:04.040 He wasn't even in that video.

06:49:05.300 Yeah, it would be...

06:49:05.960 No, I mean, how old is my video?

06:49:07.360 A year and a half.

06:49:09.480 Oh, okay.

06:49:09.840 So, it can be around that time as well.

06:49:11.960 Yeah, so, you're looking at...

06:49:14.000 So, why are there...

06:49:15.120 Justin Waller came on the show two times.

06:49:16.940 Right, so, why are there women that are off the street?

06:49:19.080 Just kind of random women, whether they're college, whether they're OF, whether they're

06:49:23.040 Instagram models.

06:49:24.060 But when it comes to the male panelists, they're hand-selected.

06:49:28.840 You know, they just aren't random college guys.

06:49:30.160 How does that pertain at all?

06:49:33.660 Because I think when you're having these subject matter experts within certain aspects,

06:49:38.580 obviously, like Andrew, he's had a lot of experience when it comes to...

06:49:41.300 Andrew is not a subject matter expert on dating.

06:49:45.580 Not at all.

06:49:46.760 He doesn't study it.

06:49:48.800 I mean, you do have subject matter expertise, right?

06:49:51.220 I mean, he's married, but I don't know if that makes him a...

06:49:53.880 Yeah, not on dating.

06:49:54.300 I don't know if that makes...

06:49:54.960 He's been...

06:49:55.540 In fact...

06:49:55.840 I've been out of the dating market for like half my wife.

06:49:58.920 You've been married for what, 20 or like...

06:50:01.060 Well, I've been with Rachel for 20, I think, or something.

06:50:03.500 I mean, but...

06:50:03.860 Andrew wasn't even dating when there were dating apps.

06:50:06.340 Again, like, I don't know what you want me to do when I can't reference like specific

06:50:10.120 clips that I don't have.

06:50:11.180 Well, you can't...

06:50:12.020 Well, so...

06:50:12.640 I mean, I explain things and you're like, that was a year and a half ago.

06:50:15.100 This is me.

06:50:15.140 Justin Haller is not a...

06:50:16.800 What is he a subject matter expert of?

06:50:19.500 Um...

06:50:20.100 I mean, like, capitalism and economic success.

06:50:24.360 He's not a subject expert.

06:50:26.680 Yeah, that's not a subject matter expert.

06:50:28.480 So he's just a random guy?

06:50:30.060 Are you a subject matter expert in Marxism?

06:50:33.080 No.

06:50:33.440 How come?

06:50:33.800 I wouldn't say that.

06:50:34.380 How come you're not?

06:50:36.180 What makes you not that?

06:50:38.340 Um, I definitely think that's what my platform is based on.

06:50:42.180 So I would say more of a subject matter expert than like the average person, sure.

06:50:46.240 Well, then that's all Waller would be.

06:50:48.120 Right.

06:50:48.580 So why did Waller come on?

06:50:50.980 Because he wanted to probably engage with these various individuals about their various

06:50:56.120 worldviews.

06:50:56.820 The same reason that most people...

06:50:58.280 So he's a random guy, just like the women are random.

06:51:00.580 Why do you take random callers?

06:51:02.660 I mean, all my callers are random.

06:51:04.160 Well, I don't understand.

06:51:05.160 If all your callers are random, is it because you just want to humiliate people who aren't

06:51:08.100 subject matter experts like yourself?

06:51:09.720 Oh.

06:51:10.060 Uh, no.

06:51:11.260 Oh, no?

06:51:11.980 You have different motivations than that?

06:51:13.760 That's really weird.

06:51:14.620 I mean, it really...

06:51:15.800 Like, you're not random, are you?

06:51:17.920 No, this is actually...

06:51:19.040 Hold on, Andrew.

06:51:19.500 We've talked about this before.

06:51:21.100 This is actually a fantastic argument.

06:51:23.120 This is a criticism...

06:51:24.120 No, I kick.

06:51:24.960 Well, this is a...

06:51:26.120 This is a criticism.

06:51:27.640 He kicks people off, too.

06:51:29.020 You kick people off?

06:51:30.220 Rarely, though.

06:51:30.540 He tells people to be quiet?

06:51:31.700 You mute them.

06:51:32.340 Well, this is a criticism, like, and I think maybe Dean and Parker have forwarded this.

06:51:37.960 Like, oh, why do you bring on these...

06:51:40.460 Forwarded to you?

06:51:41.740 Huh?

06:51:42.420 You said Dean and Parker forwarded this?

06:51:44.200 No, no, no.

06:51:44.840 They, like, put the argument forward.

06:51:46.620 Yeah, they forwarded this.

06:51:47.840 Oh, man.

06:51:48.480 And why do you want to bring on these girls who are just ill-prepared and da-da-da?

06:51:54.040 You host...

06:51:55.140 If I'm correct, you host TikTok Lives, correct?

06:51:59.360 Yeah.

06:51:59.620 So that's like...

06:52:00.880 And secondly...

06:52:02.360 Thirdly, I don't even know where we're at.

06:52:04.200 Firstly, that's just random people scrolling on their phone.

06:52:07.620 I suspect the IQ of people on TikTok, no offense, is probably lower than the IQ of our average

06:52:15.400 guest.

06:52:15.920 Like, look, TikTok's like...

06:52:17.620 So basically what you have, you have a guy who's never seen your content before.

06:52:21.080 Okay.

06:52:21.400 And you put in these prompts, and Andrew called you out on this during the show.

06:52:26.700 You forward these positions.

06:52:28.300 I don't know if it's...

06:52:30.620 Bait.

06:52:31.800 Modern Bailey, but you're like, oh, abortion should be legal for the entire term, and then

06:52:36.980 you're going to, like, capture these people who are like, whoa.

06:52:39.500 So she's okay with people who want to get an abortion, like, five minutes before...

06:52:43.760 And then it gives a completely proprietary definition.

06:52:45.100 And then you totally, like, change your position.

06:52:47.920 But so these...

06:52:48.340 Well, I do...

06:52:48.560 Hold on, hold on, hold on.

06:52:49.300 Okay.

06:52:49.660 So these people that you...

06:52:51.920 And you do...

06:52:52.480 How often do you do the TikTok debates?

06:52:54.140 Multiple times a week?

06:52:54.920 I mean, it depends.

06:52:55.920 Okay.

06:52:56.200 So you do TikTok debates.

06:52:57.660 These people are going in 100% blind.

06:53:00.580 They're just on their phone scrolling.

06:53:02.280 They happen to happen on your TikTok Live through the algorithm.

06:53:05.880 They're like, oh, let me do a request.

06:53:07.880 And it's some, like, completely unprepared person who probably, like, never debates.

06:53:13.060 Or he just has, like, vague, you know, political beliefs.

06:53:17.160 And maybe he voted for Trump.

06:53:18.360 And he's, like, some grandpa or some shit.

06:53:21.180 And you've, like, have...

06:53:23.080 You have all your information in front.

06:53:25.360 You have everything.

06:53:26.680 And instantly they get thrown in.

06:53:29.260 All the girls who come on our show have weeks or months to prepare.

06:53:33.480 They often ask to be on the show.

06:53:35.840 They have opportunity to practice their debate skills.

06:53:39.980 They have opportunity to review, for weeks or months, past episodes.

06:53:45.720 So how are you saying that I'm somehow, you know, doing this unfair thing with my platform

06:53:51.040 where they have to come in studio and they have an abundance of time to prepare,

06:53:57.900 whereas you're just, like, you're just picking people who are popping up in the algorithm.

06:54:02.840 Sure.

06:54:04.000 They have way less of the people you engage with have far less time to prepare.

06:54:08.640 And less debate experience.

06:54:09.820 Not subject matter experts.

06:54:11.900 And you have proprietary definitions for everything you put up there, like abortion.

06:54:15.200 In fact, almost every definition you have for everything we've discussed today,

06:54:18.760 which is why we spent more time on semantics and defining things than anything else,

06:54:22.420 is because every definition you gave is proprietary.

06:54:25.820 None of them are, like, your definition of feminism, proprietary.

06:54:29.440 Misogyny, proprietary.

06:54:31.500 Well, I mean...

06:54:32.080 Like, just everything is a proprietary definition.

06:54:34.260 Well, my definition of feminism is from bell hooks,

06:54:36.820 and my definition of misogyny is from Kate Mann.

06:54:40.600 So, obviously...

06:54:41.720 But these are not the definitions which you'd find in the commons.

06:54:45.640 Like, misogyny would just be hate women.

06:54:48.080 Right.

06:54:48.460 The dictionary is descriptive, not prescriptive.

06:54:50.700 So, obviously, I'm not making descriptive definitions.

06:54:53.120 Yeah, they're just proprietary.

06:54:54.800 They're proprietary.

06:54:55.680 Well, yeah.

06:54:57.200 Like, how do you define fascism?

06:54:59.040 I'm sure that a lot of political scholars have different definitions of fascism

06:55:03.000 because they're talking about how they're trying to convey the subject.

06:55:06.620 Yeah, but when you're talking about abortion, people think termination of the fetus.

06:55:10.380 So, if I can finish, when it comes to the abortion topic,

06:55:14.860 I've run a different variety of backgrounds,

06:55:18.060 which I'm sure you've seen.

06:55:19.080 Legal without restriction.

06:55:20.800 Abortion, legal, and free online months.

06:55:22.640 Now I'm in pro-abortion because there were aspects of the prompt

06:55:27.220 that I was sick of explaining.

06:55:29.360 So, one of the aspects of TikTok is just finding good prompts

06:55:34.360 to communicate what your position is effectively.

06:55:39.180 Yeah, but the second you said...

06:55:40.240 And I don't use the abortion-free and legal nine months anymore.

06:55:42.860 Yeah, but you say abortion is the liberation of a pregnancy.

06:55:46.620 When you say that...

06:55:47.560 I never said that.

06:55:48.500 Deliberate termination.

06:55:51.780 Sorry.

06:55:53.040 Nine-month...

06:55:53.780 Yeah, yeah, sorry.

06:55:54.820 Deliberate termination of a pregnancy.

06:55:56.700 Yeah.

06:55:56.920 So, the thing is, is like, that is super proprietary.

06:56:00.520 When people are thinking...

06:56:01.300 Would you like me to use the medical definition from Harvard?

06:56:03.220 When people are thinking of abortion, right,

06:56:06.220 they're thinking that you're saying it's okay to terminate the baby up to nine months.

06:56:09.820 That's what they're thinking.

06:56:10.860 Sure.

06:56:11.080 I don't discount that, which is why when they come up and, you know,

06:56:15.120 we discuss that, I'm not like, oh, you fucking idiot.

06:56:17.480 Like, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

06:56:19.040 Oh, right.

06:56:19.380 But I'm just saying it's bait.

06:56:20.400 I tell them, this is how...

06:56:21.660 Well, and I've told you that I have changed my prompt.

06:56:24.660 Sure.

06:56:24.960 Because there are certain heavy lifting things that I don't want to do.

06:56:27.740 Like, there's conversations I want to have,

06:56:29.640 and I don't want to spend my time correcting certain assumptions.

06:56:34.900 So, I have changed my background.

06:56:37.060 I don't use that anymore.

06:56:37.980 Okay.

06:56:38.380 Here, we'll come right back to it.

06:56:39.860 And again, I just want to...

06:56:40.900 Let's wrap up.

06:56:42.120 Hold on.

06:56:42.460 Hold on.

06:56:42.860 We're almost done.

06:56:43.380 I just want to say I'm ready to go.

06:56:45.940 Okay.

06:56:46.380 Hold on.

06:56:47.780 I need to let a couple come through, though, before they fall off.

06:56:50.720 If Andrew eats the pizza,

06:56:52.300 then next up is a pineapple and sour cream-filled burrito for Brian on Sunday.

06:56:56.940 What the heck?

06:56:57.360 He won't care.

06:56:58.740 What the heck?

06:56:59.580 That's crazy.

06:57:01.720 One sec.

06:57:02.480 Mr. Cooper89 donated $25.

06:57:06.080 Karl Marx was a notorious slob who sat around and wrote philosophy,

06:57:10.500 refusing to work while his children died from poverty-related illnesses.

06:57:15.400 Archetype for these more than gay fathers.

06:57:16.680 You've got to watch.

06:57:17.000 You've got to read.

06:57:17.620 You've got to see where they're going.

06:57:19.040 It's for you.

06:57:19.660 Edwin Lunders Corbrater donated $20.69.

06:57:23.520 I watched one of Brian's first YouTube videos.

06:57:26.920 I do believe the Virgin claim law.

06:57:29.380 Can we get an actual debate for Andy?

06:57:31.480 Someone like Nick Fuentes or Charlie Kirk or Andrew Tate.

06:57:36.060 Much love, Brian and Andy.

06:57:38.440 Thank you, man.

06:57:39.060 Appreciate it.

06:57:39.620 Ricks, $93 donated $20.

06:57:42.060 Oh, yeah.

06:57:42.340 You have any in it, Andrew?

06:57:43.620 And you've got to eat it for the griff.

06:57:44.960 They haven't sent in $1,000 yet.

06:57:47.140 Give me a break.

06:57:48.300 Ricks, thank you for that.

06:57:49.340 There's a couple more coming through.

06:57:54.740 Repeal the 19TH donated $20.

06:57:58.040 Thank you.

06:57:58.360 Sex workers are at the top of the useless index for society.

06:58:02.460 Right below that are Marxists, communists, socialists, and feminazis.

06:58:07.160 What was just said in the three-minute waste is retarded and brain-rotting.

06:58:11.980 Okay.

06:58:12.640 Double agent donated $19.99.

06:58:16.580 You must face so many struggles as a middle-class white woman.

06:58:20.540 There will never be a female president of the U.S. because you simply refused to just make

06:58:25.960 sandwiches and nurture.

06:58:28.500 Rachel Wilson donated $20.

06:58:31.520 I am a woman and I demonize sex work.

06:58:34.800 I support patriarchy and I think feminism is extremely harmful to women.

06:58:39.620 Is that misogynistic?

06:58:41.660 Is that misogynistic?

06:58:42.820 Yes.

06:58:43.320 That's, again, why I said the definition is to center the experience because women can

06:58:47.740 also be a sexualist.

06:58:47.780 Say what's left of your dignity.

06:58:49.520 You don't come off as intelligent, which is what you're trying to do, clearly.

06:58:53.420 You simply come off as ignorant.

06:58:55.680 You're 38.

06:58:57.000 For God's sake.

06:58:58.460 You lost badly.

06:59:01.340 Raven Bones donated $20.

06:59:04.020 Andrew is right.

06:59:05.260 Any OF model is a degenerate.

06:59:07.780 Get that out of my society.

06:59:09.360 It contributes nothing.

06:59:11.580 I blame men for allowing them to think it is okay by being weak and giving them money.

06:59:17.940 Prometheus donated $30.

06:59:20.240 Brian and Andrew do not represent the words misogyny as they invite women.

06:59:25.020 You're using it as an ad hominem.

06:59:28.120 Thank you, Prometheus.

06:59:29.420 Appreciate it.

06:59:29.920 We have two more coming in.

06:59:31.780 Appreciate it, guys.

06:59:32.640 Thank you, Raven.

06:59:33.220 Thank you, Cup.

06:59:34.060 Of underscore Joe donated $20.

06:59:36.640 Shout out to the feminist.

06:59:38.040 You're a good reason for why females shouldn't go to college.

06:59:42.280 You can't change the definition of words to suit your meaning, but the hubris of the modern ovary is forever lacking.

06:59:50.160 Lendl Taylor donated $20.

06:59:52.760 Andrew, how do you feel about apostate prophet joining the Orthodox Church?

06:59:58.140 Brian, are all those donations from Beat in Cheeks and Grid One, a.k.a. the divisive content purse jockeys, super chill?

07:00:06.280 Uh, I mean, the donations for, I don't even think, I don't know if we saw Grid One or Cheeks tonight, but they're definitely regular patrons.

07:00:16.580 Um, one question for you.

07:00:17.820 Do you think, like, defraud, do you think defrauding people is degenerate?

07:00:20.720 Um, how are we defining degenerate?

07:00:25.700 Without morals.

07:00:28.500 Is it immoral?

07:00:29.900 I mean...

07:00:30.600 To defraud people?

07:00:32.280 In what, like...

07:00:34.340 Just fraud.

07:00:35.220 In any context?

07:00:35.840 Just fraud?

07:00:36.500 Fraud.

07:00:37.440 Is that wrong?

07:00:38.320 Um, well, I mean, fraud is wrong, sure.

07:00:42.740 Okay, like, the majority of...

07:00:44.020 The majority of OnlyFans creators are employing something called typers and chatters.

07:00:49.380 So they're representing to their predominantly male audience.

07:00:53.560 By the way, this is me typing, this is me chatting with you.

07:00:56.860 This is a representation.

07:00:58.720 There's this term in marketing or in the legal world, false advertising.

07:01:03.220 These women are false advertising.

07:01:04.520 They're saying, uh, essentially, purchase this product and you get to talk to me.

07:01:09.980 Spend this money, you get to talk to me.

07:01:12.020 In the reality, they're employing either a management company or they have, like, a typer,

07:01:16.020 typically in, like, a third world country.

07:01:17.800 Uh, you know, it's typically a man who's going to be typing on behalf of the woman and sexting

07:01:22.920 with these men.

07:01:23.720 I think if you're representing and you're saying, hey, I'm, uh, I'm the one who you're going

07:01:29.160 to be talking to.

07:01:30.200 They are making a representation, a false representation.

07:01:32.980 That's fraud.

07:01:35.340 Point blank, period.

07:01:36.440 They're defrauding.

07:01:37.820 I think it's, uh, civil fraud and criminal fraud.

07:01:40.480 They are defrauding the, and if they're not doing it, then it wouldn't technically be fraud.

07:01:44.860 But the majority of these women have a management company.

07:01:47.740 They have typers.

07:01:48.440 They have chatters.

07:01:49.240 They have somebody else, typically a man sending messages and they're saying it's me,

07:01:54.000 but it's actually not.

07:01:55.340 That's fraud.

07:01:56.260 That's degenerate.

07:01:57.180 That's right.

07:02:02.980 I mean, uh, sure.

07:02:05.320 That, that's definitely an aspect of capitalism that I would agree with.

07:02:08.980 Do you think it's wrong?

07:02:10.240 Oh, okay.

07:02:10.580 You do think it's wrong.

07:02:11.460 Yeah.

07:02:11.660 I don't think there's a lot of ethical consumption under capitalism.

07:02:14.300 Okay.

07:02:14.580 But you just, you just granted that.

07:02:17.360 So when we, when we talk about.

07:02:19.220 That fraud would be degenerate.

07:02:20.160 So I think I was justified then to call her degenerate.

07:02:22.140 Well, I, I, again, just because she's like, is she engaging in this specific practice

07:02:26.620 of saying like, pay me and I'll chat with you.

07:02:30.120 So I, I, again, like, I, I think you're really being dishonest, dishonest.

07:02:33.740 How would it be dishonest?

07:02:34.820 Women admit to it.

07:02:35.740 About you demonizing sex work.

07:02:37.600 You're trying to massage it to make it seem that you were demonizing other aspects rather

07:02:41.740 than actually demonizing sex work.

07:02:43.500 This is, this is actually my go-to, my, my go-to.

07:02:46.080 Hold on.

07:02:46.560 Hold on.

07:02:46.820 Hold on.

07:02:47.080 Do you criticize the sex buyer?

07:02:47.480 You're not going to dictate what my own position is.

07:02:49.840 Well, you're kind of steamrolling me.

07:02:50.940 I'm not steamrolling you.

07:02:52.040 Let me respond to you.

07:02:53.300 No, I've been quite, I've been moderate.

07:02:54.820 I've been quite the whole show.

07:02:56.360 You guys have been talking a lot.

07:02:57.580 Well, I mean, within this specific, I, within this specific sense of that.

07:02:58.880 Well, at least allow me to respond to that.

07:03:00.540 So this idea that this is like some sort of, I'm, I'm now forwarding this position about

07:03:06.060 these women defrauding men, like that I'm trying to massage it.

07:03:10.660 Yeah, you're trying to massage your statement.

07:03:12.160 Hold on.

07:03:12.820 And what you were referencing.

07:03:14.300 Actually, I mean, Andrew can, can vouch for me on this.

07:03:17.100 When I have criticisms of OnlyFans, it's never like, oh, you post naked photos, you're doing

07:03:24.460 porn, porn bad.

07:03:25.960 I typically defer to this precise argument of, hold on.

07:03:30.560 I defer to this position of, you are, you are defrauding these men by having typers,

07:03:37.500 chatters and doing false misrepresentation.

07:03:40.760 Is that not the case, Andrew?

07:03:42.120 Whenever OF, I'm not like, oh, they're, they're, they're immoral because, because they're posting

07:03:47.620 nude photos.

07:03:48.380 No, it's like, I actually have not heard that.

07:03:50.420 No.

07:03:51.480 That, well, I haven't heard Brian demonize women because they do sex work.

07:03:54.700 Because they post like nude photos.

07:03:57.560 It's, it's like my attack on it tends to be, that's usually me.

07:04:01.400 That's Andrew.

07:04:02.700 That's me.

07:04:03.260 I mean, I don't know how you can say that's not the, the statement that you said.

07:04:07.040 You're a degenerate.

07:04:08.020 You do OF, you're a degenerate.

07:04:09.800 But if the majority of OF creators are engaged in defrauding their audience and you granted

07:04:14.920 that fraud is degenerate, you are defrauding your OF audience, you degenerate, then I would

07:04:22.600 probably give you more leeway.

07:04:23.620 Why do I need to add that qualifier?

07:04:25.540 Because that's what I'm saying.

07:04:27.060 You're trying to massage the context to make it seem to fit a different narrative.

07:04:30.160 If within my own worldview and within my experience, wouldn't I be the perfect person to know this?

07:04:35.320 I have women admitting to me on the show multiple times.

07:04:38.820 Yes, I have a typer.

07:04:39.720 Yes, I have a chatter.

07:04:40.520 They tell me after the show.

07:04:41.760 They have management companies.

07:04:43.440 I have men who run.

07:04:44.340 Bro, you just have a proprietary definition of degeneracy.

07:04:48.280 That's it.

07:04:48.920 That's like done.

07:04:51.180 She has proprietary definitions for all kinds of shit.

07:04:53.360 You can have a proprietary definition.

07:04:55.020 I mean, like when you say proprietary, do you just mean prescriptive?

07:04:57.960 No, proprietary meaning it's a definition unto me.

07:05:01.520 It means so you're not using...

07:05:03.700 What's the difference between proprietary and prescriptive?

07:05:07.040 Well, it depends.

07:05:08.560 Like a prescriptive claim?

07:05:09.960 A prescriptive definition.

07:05:11.940 Oh, a prescriptive definition.

07:05:13.500 Yeah, so it would be a prescriptive definition, but it'd also be...

07:05:17.480 Here, I'll give you an exact definition so that it's not...

07:05:20.180 Of the difference between proprietary and prescriptive?

07:05:23.100 Yeah.

07:05:23.500 Okay.

07:05:23.900 Yeah, so that we have a delineation.

07:05:26.200 I'll just make sure we get it right.

07:05:27.760 Really quick, while he's doing that, can you pull up the video again?

07:05:30.280 Because I just wanted to check the...

07:05:32.560 I really do want to be done.

07:05:33.240 Pull up the video tab.

07:05:34.180 Yeah, five, ten minutes.

07:05:35.580 Pull it up really quick.

07:05:36.200 You said that five, ten minutes ago.

07:05:37.620 I was wrong.

07:05:39.180 Pull it up really quick.

07:05:40.180 Pull up the video tab.

07:05:40.740 We have been going seven hours.

07:05:44.820 You're in the window.

07:05:45.640 Tap.

07:05:45.840 Video tab, please.

07:05:46.720 Can you skip forward to the abuse part?

07:05:49.060 I just wanted to make sure I'm quoting it correctly.

07:05:51.160 Skip forward.

07:05:51.760 In any case, you're not particularly...

07:05:53.220 Can you...

07:05:53.680 Yeah, so...

07:05:54.880 Blake, can you skip forward?

07:05:56.820 Proprietary in this case.

07:06:00.720 Like, scroll, though?

07:06:02.180 Can you just scroll?

07:06:04.080 No, can you scroll forward?

07:06:06.200 Like, more, like, in the video...

07:06:08.180 Yeah, yeah.

07:06:09.300 I'm looking for the...

07:06:10.340 Here, I need to hide this.

07:06:11.440 We have to hide...

07:06:12.360 The only reason they have women outside of that context is if they're conservative,

07:06:15.480 like Candace Owens or Lila Rose.

07:06:17.800 And obviously they have this structure because their arguments will go unchallenged...

07:06:21.280 The abuse part?

07:06:23.520 I don't know where that is, though.

07:06:24.820 You can see there's a very unique setup when it comes to men centered around anti-feminist

07:06:29.840 or heavily...

07:06:30.720 There are many...

07:06:31.600 Yeah, I think you should go to the beginning.

07:06:34.140 Okay.

07:06:34.420 I think I've said...

07:06:35.340 Abuse women.

07:06:36.460 Right.

07:06:36.840 And I also said that I've been in these spaces as well on TikTok and that there is similar

07:06:43.220 setups when it comes to this.

07:06:45.280 A lot of men will hold anti-feminist, highly conservative, red pill spaces to enact misogyny

07:06:51.800 against the women that they're...

07:06:52.820 You hold anti-male spaces to enact misogyny upon the men that come into your TikTok.

07:06:59.040 What anti-male space am I holding?

07:07:00.640 You host TikTok lives and you specifically seek out to debate men who disagree with your

07:07:06.520 politics and worldview.

07:07:08.000 No, not men.

07:07:08.820 Women as well.

07:07:09.680 It just depends who requests.

07:07:11.040 Okay, fine.

07:07:12.160 And who mostly comes on, though.

07:07:13.060 And we've debated against men, too.

07:07:15.420 Because obviously men would hold the...

07:07:17.720 Okay, and mostly women come on here.

07:07:19.460 So we're...

07:07:20.120 Is it a mirror?

07:07:20.620 I mean, I don't see you having men come on who don't hold the...

07:07:24.220 Me and Andrew did a 2v2 debate against one guy who...

07:07:28.320 When was that?

07:07:29.640 It was more recent than the Justin Waller appearance, but it was, what, six months ago,

07:07:34.080 something like that?

07:07:34.760 Something like that.

07:07:35.220 Summertime.

07:07:35.540 How old is this video?

07:07:36.420 Huh?

07:07:36.720 How old is my video?

07:07:37.460 Like two years.

07:07:38.720 Or a year and a half.

07:07:39.820 No, not how long it is.

07:07:41.440 How old is it?

07:07:42.720 I think it's...

07:07:43.300 It doesn't matter.

07:07:43.840 Don't worry about it.

07:07:44.260 I think it's a year and a half.

07:07:44.620 Well, it does.

07:07:45.640 Because obviously...

07:07:46.240 I'm saying that to Blake.

07:07:47.380 Oh.

07:07:48.320 Obviously, that 2v2 is after I made this video.

07:07:51.620 Right.

07:07:51.920 But now you're not, like, changing your position.

07:07:56.140 I'm now referencing that into words that have came out of your mouth within the past

07:08:01.540 10 minutes.

07:08:02.000 I'm saying this is my position at this time based on the content that I had viewed.

07:08:04.860 Again, if you want me to be specific, I can give specific clips, but I'm not prepared

07:08:09.900 to.

07:08:10.260 I don't know what you want.

07:08:11.440 You don't even need to give the clip.

07:08:13.020 Just tell me something that I have said that is misogynistic or abusive.

07:08:18.800 I think saying you're a degenerate because you're an OnlyFans is misogynistic, an OnlyFans

07:08:23.280 model.

07:08:24.180 It's misogynistic.

07:08:25.800 Yes, you are shaming a sex worker.

07:08:27.120 So if I said that to a male OnlyFans model, would it be misandrist?

07:08:32.860 Or would it still be misogynistic?

07:08:34.840 Obviously, her gender is going to be at the center of the misogyny because a sex worker

07:08:40.020 is acting outside of the patriarchal prescription of their gender, which is to be virginal, to

07:08:47.980 be virtuous, not to sleep with men, so on and so forth.

07:08:51.200 Well, I think male sex workers could be degenerate too.

07:08:54.280 So would that be misogynistic or misandrist?

07:08:57.500 It would.

07:08:57.840 Or neither?

07:08:58.540 It would be neither.

07:08:59.500 It wouldn't be misandrist.

07:09:00.500 Yeah, because that's not a social prescription of masculinity or of men under patriarchy.

07:09:04.340 What if it's under, like, a Christian worldview?

07:09:07.780 I don't hold a Christian worldview, so I can't tell you that.

07:09:10.080 Okay, so it's just...

07:09:11.360 You have to understand that everything that's come out of this view has been the definition

07:09:16.740 only applies to the next proprietary definition.

07:09:19.160 Proprietary meaning it's you own the definition.

07:09:21.380 Again, I haven't heard the difference between proprietary and prescriptive.

07:09:24.840 But I really do want to go.

07:09:27.340 I just want to tell you what it is.

07:09:28.680 I don't want to, like, make it seem like I'm trying to run, but this hasn't gone on seven

07:09:32.480 hours.

07:09:32.960 Yeah, but proprietary, in this case...

07:09:37.300 Like, I'm sure you want me to be here willingly and enthusiastically, and I'm not.

07:09:41.240 How about this?

07:09:41.940 If I give you a hard out in five minutes, can you stay another five minutes?

07:09:47.700 Like, it's 11.05?

07:09:50.220 How about 11.11?

07:09:52.180 Lucky number.

07:09:53.480 That's six minutes, five minutes.

07:09:55.120 I'm done.

07:09:56.960 Is, like, rage quit done?

07:09:59.380 Again, like, I've been saying, I want to be done for a while now.

07:10:04.120 Well, I mean, we were going to react to the video.

07:10:05.180 And it keeps pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing.

07:10:07.120 But there's going to be an expectation, just to let you know, our dating talk panels go

07:10:10.160 longer than this.

07:10:11.440 So there is an expectation.

07:10:12.400 What expectation did you give me when we discussed it over DMs for this specific discussion?

07:10:16.960 I'd have to review the email.

07:10:18.380 I don't recall exactly.

07:10:19.660 It was three hours.

07:10:20.280 Yeah, it was going to be shorter, but to be fair, look, you brought up the, you guys

07:10:24.780 started talking about necrophilia.

07:10:26.120 You started talking about some crazy shit, bro.

07:10:29.060 You know, again, maybe this is the failure of moderation for not moving topics or having

07:10:33.160 a different structure when it comes to the debate.

07:10:36.780 But I think I've been a very willing and considerate and participant panelist.

07:10:43.240 And now that I'm done after seven hours.

07:10:45.880 I'm not forcing you to be here.

07:10:48.040 I'm asking if you can stay for four minutes.

07:10:50.640 Oh, you're going to rage quit when I wanted to go 20 minutes ago?

07:10:52.520 Okay, fine.

07:10:52.940 I was wrong for saying you were rage quitting.

07:10:54.680 I'm asking if you can stay for an additional four minutes.

07:10:57.520 That's it.

07:10:58.180 And it's a hard out.

07:11:00.000 11-11.

07:11:00.860 It's 11-06.

07:11:01.800 I'm keeping track here.

07:11:02.920 Fine.

07:11:03.340 Four minutes.

07:11:04.380 And then, okay.

07:11:05.460 So when I say proprietary, I just mean personal.

07:11:08.120 It's your personal definition of a thing.

07:11:10.920 It's not.

07:11:11.560 I told you where I got them from.

07:11:13.560 And were their definitions proprietary?

07:11:15.220 So, again, it doesn't tell me what the difference between a prescriptive definition and a proprietary.

07:11:21.540 What's a prescriptive definition?

07:11:22.820 So a prescriptive definition is how the word ought to be used.

07:11:26.660 The difference between a descriptive and a prescriptive is it describes how people often use it in language.

07:11:32.820 And then.

07:11:33.220 So it's the same as prescriptive or descriptive in philosophy.

07:11:37.700 Prescriptive being what you ought to do.

07:11:39.860 Descriptive being just the descriptor of how a thing is.

07:11:42.600 So, okay.

07:11:43.560 So if it's a prescriptive definition for odds.

07:11:45.560 Prescriptive definition.

07:11:46.420 Yeah.

07:11:46.600 In the commons, there's going to be a different way in which abortion is used than the proprietary definition.

07:11:51.960 And I think there is validity in having different prescriptive definitions to explain a concept.

07:11:58.260 While the majority of abortions do end in the death of the fetus, I think that a lot of people have centered it then that that is the goal of the abortion.

07:12:06.420 That's not my criticism.

07:12:07.260 Rather than.

07:12:07.740 My criticism is just that everything that you utilize is a definition which feeds a definition which feeds a definition which renders these concepts true.

07:12:19.900 Just definitionally true.

07:12:21.580 But it doesn't render them actually true.

07:12:23.260 Like your definition of misogyny.

07:12:25.620 Your definition of misogyny is essentially only a way to demonize men.

07:12:31.380 So you say, well, my definition of misogyny is anything which upholds the patriarchy, right?

07:12:38.660 Basically?

07:12:39.880 No.

07:12:40.580 Okay.

07:12:40.840 What is your definition of misogyny?

07:12:42.300 The hate or hostility towards women and girls for stepping outside of their patriarchal prescribed gender role.

07:12:47.520 Okay, so you add the word patriarchy in there.

07:12:51.040 So any type of hatred for you for stepping outside of whatever patriarchal gender roles you have.

07:12:57.520 Well, gender is a patriarchal prescription.

07:12:59.900 Yeah, right.

07:13:00.180 Because how we have conceptualized masculinity and femininity.

07:13:03.320 Well, I'm just showing you how you use the things to make them definitionally true.

07:13:07.020 That's not my definition.

07:13:08.020 Yeah, okay.

07:13:08.420 Well, then they're using it to make it definitionally true.

07:13:10.900 And you're then using it also to make it definitionally true, even if it's not true.

07:13:14.980 What definitionally true?

07:13:16.200 So the idea of patriarchy is not anywhere in any commons version of misogyny I can find anywhere.

07:13:23.640 Okay.

07:13:24.420 So when people are talking about misogyny, they don't mean, oh, you're not conforming to whatever this nebulous patriarchy wants you to do.

07:13:32.500 They're thinking that you hate women.

07:13:34.060 That's what they think.

07:13:35.000 Sure.

07:13:35.380 So you use this to say, see, you're actually, because you believe in things like patriarchy, you're definitionally a misogynist.

07:13:45.740 No, you're fucking not definitionally a misogynist.

07:13:47.920 You're only definitionally a misogynist under your proprietary definitions.

07:13:51.880 That's my problem with Marxists in general.

07:13:53.640 Every time I debate with them.

07:13:54.600 This is not a Marxist definition.

07:13:55.460 Every time I debate with Marxists, they use proprietary definitions that feed proprietary definitions to make them definitionally right.

07:14:02.780 I don't know why you think this is a Marxist definition.

07:14:04.940 I've told you it's from a feminist theorist, Kate Mann.

07:14:08.040 And is Kate Mann a Marxist?

07:14:09.320 I don't think so.

07:14:10.220 Okay.

07:14:10.620 Well, I don't know her.

07:14:11.480 What I'm saying is that this is a common trend.

07:14:13.040 She's rated one of the top 10 feminist thinkers.

07:14:14.700 Okay.

07:14:14.940 Well, this is.

07:14:15.660 And there's arguments to why this definition would be, would work better functionally.

07:14:20.420 Why?

07:14:20.760 I think when we categorize the hate, misogyny is the hatred of women, how can you determine outside of a man saying, I hate women, that he hates women?

07:14:31.400 Because he can just essentially say like, oh, well, I love my mother.

07:14:35.320 Oh, well, I love my sister.

07:14:36.360 So, of course, I don't hate women.

07:14:38.000 So, I'm not being a misogynist.

07:14:39.440 Yeah.

07:14:39.860 What's wrong with that?

07:14:40.520 But when we're, because then.

07:14:42.040 Because then you can't classify anybody as a misogynist.

07:14:45.720 The definition is meaningless.

07:14:46.460 No, it's still not meaningless.

07:14:47.880 It absolutely is.

07:14:48.580 No, you can say, you can say that a person hates all women, they're a misogynist.

07:14:53.260 Or you can make another determining.

07:14:54.860 Then all women is absolutely ridiculous.

07:14:56.500 Or you can, why?

07:14:57.280 That that's.

07:14:57.880 Why?

07:14:58.460 Because you want it to be?

07:14:59.420 To hate every single woman?

07:15:00.500 Like, what man would ever meet that standard?

07:15:02.440 Is it okay to.

07:15:03.120 So, then no one's a misogynist?

07:15:04.600 Well, first of all, there are men who meet the standard of hating all women.

07:15:07.840 Who?

07:15:08.720 The men who hate all women.

07:15:10.220 Well, where are they?

07:15:11.040 Men who have described themselves as, I hate women.

07:15:14.860 I hate women does not mean I hate all women.

07:15:16.980 Okay.

07:15:17.200 But when they say, I hate all women, do you take them at their word?

07:15:20.600 I have not met one man who says, I hate all women.

07:15:23.620 It seems to me like you just want to, you could actually describe it in different ways too.

07:15:27.260 You can say, you hate most women.

07:15:30.800 Or you hate a significant portion of the population of women.

07:15:33.620 Does that now not make you a misogynist?

07:15:35.040 Yeah, you can do, you can do that, right?

07:15:36.980 You can do it in any different way.

07:15:38.440 But what you're trying to do.

07:15:39.240 Does that now not make you a misogynist?

07:15:40.900 You're only trying to expand the definition of what makes a person a misogynist.

07:15:46.920 I'm trying to make it functional because it does address different concepts when we're talking about misogyny and patriarchy.

07:15:53.400 Obviously, under patriarchy, it's going to have the prescription of supporting male domination and supremacy, which is going to have women as subservient or as secondary.

07:16:03.620 And so there's going to be specific constructions around that.

07:16:07.240 And when women don't adhere to it, they receive hate and hostility.

07:16:10.960 So it is acting as a policing arm of the patriarchy.

07:16:15.200 How can you prove that they're receiving hate and hostility just because they're women?

07:16:19.580 Like if I hated a guy for those same exact reasons, right?

07:16:24.300 Stepping outside of whatever their patriarchal role is, am I a misogynist then?

07:16:28.200 Well, no, because again, it would be towards girls and women.

07:16:32.480 Oh, right.

07:16:32.920 So what would you call it if you do to a guy?

07:16:35.160 Nothing, right?

07:16:35.740 He's not a misogynist?

07:16:37.860 I mean, technically, that would be the definition of misandry.

07:16:41.340 I mean, if we're saying that they're opposite.

07:16:43.260 Yeah, that they're opposite.

07:16:44.300 That men are not adhering to their patriarchal prescription of gender.

07:16:47.200 So just real quick so that we can wrap this up.

07:16:49.740 I know you want to go and all that.

07:16:50.960 Okay.

07:16:51.200 And it is 12-12.

07:16:52.320 I'll finish it like right now.

07:16:54.260 It's 12-12.

07:16:54.980 It's a hard out.

07:16:56.320 Yeah.

07:16:56.660 Well, I didn't make the agreement.

07:16:57.580 I just want to finish the last point.

07:16:59.240 Last point.

07:16:59.720 I mean, I stayed till.

07:17:01.780 I gave her the hard out.

07:17:02.920 If you want it, you're welcome to take the hard out.

07:17:04.580 Yeah, you can leave.

07:17:04.840 But I would like to just finish this one last thing.

07:17:07.360 I mean, I would like to finish and close.

07:17:09.720 Yeah, close.

07:17:10.580 Should we do?

07:17:11.080 Can we do close?

07:17:11.940 Is that?

07:17:12.240 Yes.

07:17:12.660 I'm fine doing close, but I do want to go home.

07:17:14.600 We'll do this.

07:17:15.900 We can do it tomorrow.

07:17:17.740 So whatever your points are, you want to save it for tomorrow.

07:17:21.660 And you want to close.

07:17:23.020 So I think if I recall, who opened?

07:17:26.300 You opened first?

07:17:27.960 I did.

07:17:28.440 So Andrew, you get to close first, and then you can make it clear.

07:17:32.700 Yeah, yeah.

07:17:33.040 I'll close first.

07:17:33.680 So yeah, it's always the same thing.

07:17:35.340 It's always just expand the definition of the thing.

07:17:37.900 She says it makes it more functional.

07:17:39.300 It's like, no, it doesn't actually make it more functional.

07:17:41.440 You can have tons of different definitions for misogyny that are functional.

07:17:46.160 For instance, I just don't like X thing about her because she's a woman.

07:17:50.500 That would be a perfect example of what you could call misogyny.

07:17:53.380 Because it's a woman, I don't like this trait.

07:17:55.520 That's easily provable and demonstratable.

07:17:58.160 It's because she's a woman.

07:17:59.680 That could be considered misogyny.

07:18:01.200 It's totally functional.

07:18:02.160 There's like a zillion different ways to do this.

07:18:04.100 But what happens with feminists, they constantly take words in the commons, and then what they

07:18:09.460 do is they redefine them in order to expand what their meaning is.

07:18:13.100 And then they make the next definition in order to expand on that meaning as well, to

07:18:17.740 make the first one make sense, et cetera, et cetera.

07:18:19.560 So you spend all your time with them unraveling the semantics in the language before you can

07:18:23.720 even get to a damn argument, which they never have.

07:18:26.500 Because the second you move it outside of their definitions, there is no argument to

07:18:32.060 be had.

07:18:32.540 It's just, it's all definitional based.

07:18:35.000 It's just, based on my proprietary definition of this word, this word uses the loaded context

07:18:40.980 of the word like misogyny, which is very loaded.

07:18:43.700 It's a very loaded context.

07:18:45.340 But people don't think of this word as meaning, well, based on my proprietary definition, it

07:18:52.960 actually means behavior, which doesn't, or moves outside of the accord of what the patriarchy

07:18:57.040 would think your behavior ordinarily should be.

07:18:59.080 Nobody thinks of it that way.

07:19:00.240 They think of it as you hate women, or you hate people based on the fact that, or you hate,

07:19:05.000 yeah, you just hate them based on the fact they're women.

07:19:06.920 That's it.

07:19:07.660 That's what they think misogyny is.

07:19:09.520 So what happens is you take this term, which is loaded in the public domain, and with the

07:19:16.420 hatred towards women, and then you expand it to include all these other things.

07:19:19.680 So you can use the hatred around the room and expand that to more men who don't fall under

07:19:25.660 the idea of hatred of women.

07:19:27.620 And it's a typical bait and switch, and it's very frustrating because they do this with

07:19:33.200 other things, too.

07:19:33.860 They do this with fascist, Nazi.

07:19:36.620 At this point, by the way, you're basically just a Nazi if you're not like, I mean, if you're

07:19:43.040 not like just on your knees worshiping trans LGBTQ women, you're just a Nazi.

07:19:47.820 Like, that's the way they view it, because they've expanded the definition of what that

07:19:51.600 is.

07:19:51.880 So this is just like how it always works, and it's super frustrating, and you can barely

07:19:56.040 get to any points because you can't address the point outside of their definition.

07:20:00.660 So they just make everything definitionally true.

07:20:03.320 It'd be like if I said, well, I think misandry is when you talk back to me.

07:20:08.560 It's like, well, they'd be like, no, it's not.

07:20:12.420 I'd be like, yeah, I think it's just like when you talk back to me, that's misandry.

07:20:16.160 Would that be true?

07:20:17.920 No, right?

07:20:18.920 It wouldn't be true, but I mean, it would be definitionally true if she then talked back

07:20:24.940 to me and I called her a misandrist, right?

07:20:26.660 That would be definitionally true.

07:20:28.120 And this is how all these loaded terms work.

07:20:30.220 So it's super frustrating.

07:20:31.720 All the things that we went over very quickly in the beginning, she never really gave a good

07:20:35.400 account for first, second, third wave feminism, feeding women into the capitalist meat locker,

07:20:40.420 meat grinder, except to say, well, I guess I don't actually agree with those waves.

07:20:46.100 Of feminism, even though I'm a feminist, I'm just on some weird, bizarre fringe end of

07:20:49.920 feminism.

07:20:51.780 We got into the feminist movement and oppression, cruel and unusual punishment.

07:20:58.300 There wasn't a lot of arguments there either.

07:20:59.920 Let's see, what else did we get into here?

07:21:06.540 Oh yeah, we got into debt and it doesn't seem like the idea that women now being in debt

07:21:11.700 in any way, shape or form makes them more liberated than when they depended on their husband.

07:21:16.940 She just kind of says, well, I just think that they are.

07:21:19.680 There's no real good reason that she ever gave for it.

07:21:21.980 Um, and then what else did we cover?

07:21:25.240 A few things, a few other things.

07:21:27.280 I was trying to take notes as I went.

07:21:29.060 Oh yeah.

07:21:29.480 Jail.

07:21:29.860 She doesn't believe in jail.

07:21:31.040 She just believes in rehabilitation.

07:21:33.220 But then when we dive into what rehabilitation is, it's basically jail.

07:21:36.980 They can't leave.

07:21:38.420 Right.

07:21:38.820 And if you do leave, they're going to come get you and take you back.

07:21:41.340 It's like, it's basically jail.

07:21:43.160 So it's just all these crazy ass circles.

07:21:46.080 Um, and then we get, we get to the idea of abortion, the idea of, um, of murder, things

07:21:54.000 like this.

07:21:55.340 And, um, so that was a bait and switch.

07:21:57.780 It's not really all nine months.

07:21:59.220 It's again, a very proprietary definition of abortion designed to bait and switch.

07:22:06.340 And then, um, we, when we got into consent, you know, she thinks that two people are drunk,

07:22:12.020 they're graping each other.

07:22:13.160 If, uh, if a husband wakes up, wakes his wife up with sex, he's a grapist.

07:22:17.800 If she wakes him up with sex, he, she's a grapist.

07:22:20.620 It's like, that shit's fucking crazy.

07:22:22.680 But at least there we got a definition of what it was that we wanted so that we could

07:22:26.700 point out the insanity.

07:22:27.900 So I'm done with that.

07:22:29.560 I'm, that's my closing.

07:22:30.940 I appreciate it.

07:22:32.100 Kenzie.

07:22:32.740 Yeah.

07:22:33.000 So I think when we're talking about specific concepts that we want to convey, it's disingenuous

07:22:38.200 and actually a logical fallacy to just say that, oh, we should define these words

07:22:42.060 as the definition, uh, the dictionary just prescribes because that's how like the commons

07:22:47.200 uses it.

07:22:48.020 If we're having an intellectual discussion and I say something like, well, peanut butter

07:22:52.200 supremacy, and you're like, well, what is peanut butter?

07:22:54.200 And then we agree on the definition.

07:22:56.280 Then essentially I've just effectively communicated my concept to you.

07:23:00.480 We just use words as symbols.

07:23:03.300 And so using abortion in this aspect, like I've talked about before, um, I think a lot

07:23:09.780 of people have the notion that abortion, the purpose of it is to terminate the life of the

07:23:15.100 fetus when that's not true.

07:23:16.660 It is to end pregnancy.

07:23:18.200 And that is an important distinction that I want to make because there are cases, um,

07:23:23.480 where the fetus has already passed and the body has failed to, uh, complete the miscarriage.

07:23:29.000 And so an abortion is necessary, um, where there are health complications and deliberately

07:23:34.800 turning the, the, uh, terminating the pregnancy is necessary.

07:23:37.880 And so when, when, and I, I just can't believe that we have a debate for several hours and

07:23:46.900 even take the time to outline the, how we're conveying certain concepts.

07:23:52.160 And then because the concept is concise, it's disingenuous because it doesn't agree with the

07:23:57.620 dictionary.

07:23:57.940 That just seems so contradictory to me.

07:23:59.740 Um, I think in, in aspects of, of sexual consent, yes, we absolutely want to have a conscious

07:24:07.860 partner.

07:24:08.780 That's just absolutely wild to me that, um, he's more interested in his wife sleeping

07:24:14.220 rather than just waking her up and wanting to engage where, you know, consent is reversible.

07:24:19.280 Um, and there's mutual experience and pleasure.

07:24:21.840 I mean, he even said himself, he's only worried about his own experience, which is very red flag

07:24:25.980 for me.

07:24:27.380 Um, we did talk about the different waves of feminism, which I even said, I didn't like

07:24:32.400 categorizing feminism within that method because then it leaves out specific sex of feminism.

07:24:37.860 When it comes to, uh, abolitionists who were feminists, which were obviously going to be a lot of women

07:24:44.240 of color.

07:24:44.700 And I don't want to whitewash, uh, when it comes to certain ideas of feminism that just

07:24:50.680 because bourgeoisie white women wanted to participate in voting in political power with men, that somehow

07:24:57.980 this encompasses the entire first wave.

07:25:00.280 I think that's marginalization of, of racial groups.

07:25:03.640 And I, I already did disagree with him that I don't like liberal feminism, that we should be looking to,

07:25:09.300 for women to find the means of liberation under capitalism.

07:25:12.440 I think if we give women more choice under oppression, that's better than less choice.

07:25:18.020 And so that's what that would boil down to.

07:25:19.660 But obviously I would like to get rid of this, the oppressive, oppressive system in general.

07:25:23.860 We didn't really talk anything about second, third, or fourth wave feminism.

07:25:27.260 I do want to highlight too, that, um, I think he gave some information that was incorrect.

07:25:32.020 People do live long, healthy lives with just one kidney.

07:25:35.360 So sometimes in these discussions, it's hard to always fact check, which I do want to say

07:25:39.740 to your point.

07:25:40.540 I definitely give people on, um, my live, the space to look up information or to give me what

07:25:47.620 they're reading, uh, because I do want the intellectual challenge.

07:25:50.820 I do want the discourse, um, I do want the knowledge, um, where obviously we're limited

07:25:58.360 within this kind of purview, um, to really ask for sources, which I know can be very boring

07:26:03.500 and take time, but, but that's kind of another delineation I think that's important to make.

07:26:08.440 Um, I mean, the abolition of police in prisons is not a new take.

07:26:13.800 I'm not the first person to have that.

07:26:15.540 And again, I think just to say that jail is just sequestering from society, again, is,

07:26:22.400 is an inaccurate way to represent what prison and what policing actually is.

07:26:28.500 Uh, even prison, especially within America is, um, just a new strategy to continue to enact

07:26:37.460 slavery.

07:26:37.880 And obviously since, uh, people of color are disproportionately affected by the police,

07:26:43.220 it's just a new method to do so.

07:26:45.860 And then prisoners don't have, uh, they're not humanized.

07:26:49.040 They don't have rights.

07:26:49.940 And I do think even when people have committed harm in society that they don't lose their

07:26:54.180 humanity and dignity to where we can just treat them like garbage.

07:26:57.260 And so that's the delineation between prisons.

07:27:00.140 And then obviously having someone who's committed, depending what crime it is, what other strategies

07:27:05.860 we can take for them so that we actually prevent the harm in the future, rather than just punish

07:27:10.520 and release them into a system where, where crime and, and harm is prevalent.

07:27:16.660 Um, I think policing is different, but we didn't really touch on policing, so I won't touch

07:27:20.140 that.

07:27:21.520 Um, yeah.

07:27:24.380 And I, I think that that sums it up.

07:27:28.300 Okay.

07:27:29.420 Rachel Wilson says, I've given Andrew lifelong, irretractable consent lady.

07:27:33.160 It's called marriage.

07:27:33.820 I think it's weird that you think it's weird.

07:27:35.840 I don't know if you want to respond to this, but we can leave it there.

07:27:38.780 No, I don't.

07:27:39.280 Okay.

07:27:39.660 We'll leave it there.

07:27:40.900 Um, I know you have to go, I'm going to let some of the other chats come in.

07:27:45.680 So me and Andrew will continue the stream.

07:27:47.740 I can't end it immediately just cause we have them coming through, but you want your, the

07:27:52.900 heart out.

07:27:53.520 So thank you for coming.

07:27:55.060 Appreciate it.

07:27:55.960 Appreciate it.

07:27:56.500 Kenzie was a very, uh, interesting debate.

07:27:59.220 I think honestly, one of, I think it was, we've had, we've done a lot of these debates.

07:28:02.900 I think Andrew, maybe this is probably one of the better ones in terms of an opponent.

07:28:08.600 Sure.

07:28:09.680 Okay.

07:28:10.660 All right.

07:28:11.500 I don't know.

07:28:12.240 Trying to do a little compliment there at the end, but Kenzie, thank you so much for coming.

07:28:15.700 Do appreciate it.

07:28:16.360 We'll see you, uh, tomorrow.

07:28:17.620 And, uh, please don't report us to the police that we held you hostage there at the end.

07:28:24.340 Uh, thank you, Kenzie.

07:28:25.360 Oh, is he about guys?

07:28:26.540 He's about to eat.

07:28:27.800 Oh my.

07:28:29.180 We missed it.

07:28:30.060 Did we miss it?

07:28:30.700 No, no.

07:28:31.160 Was it good?

07:28:31.740 I snuck it in, bro.

07:28:33.000 Well, see here guys, snuck it in when you couldn't see cause I'm a jerk.

07:28:36.680 This is a, wow.

07:28:38.400 Rude.

07:28:38.720 I waited until Brian couldn't see and snuck it in just to, just to rob him of the pleasure.

07:28:44.500 You, you, wait, wait, where are you going?

07:28:47.960 I'm going to get some water to wash the shit out of my mouth.

07:28:52.080 Uh, guys, I'm going to let a couple of things come through here.

07:28:56.680 Um, let's see here.

07:28:59.700 All right.

07:29:00.920 Stephanie.

07:29:01.820 Thank you, Stephanie, for the membership.

07:29:03.720 Okay.

07:29:04.100 Final call guys.

07:29:04.800 If you want to get the $20 message in, um, the heart out, I'll let the rest of the messages

07:29:09.660 come through.

07:29:10.260 Then we'll get this wrapped up here.

07:29:12.360 So boom, boom.

07:29:14.500 Boom.

07:29:15.100 Boom.

07:29:15.300 $5 in air baccala donated $20.

07:29:18.120 They held mass bunnies sorges.

07:29:20.920 Swimming in spermatosa they were.

07:29:23.240 It was here that communal children were stored alongside the communal spirits.

07:29:28.160 Communal children.

07:29:28.920 Many such cases.

07:29:30.040 Many, many such cases.

07:29:31.500 Thank you.

07:29:33.300 Blathist donated $20.

07:29:35.460 If the world is a sexist patriarchy and there are 3.8 billion women on the planet, why is

07:29:41.520 it still dirty?

07:29:42.660 Wow.

07:29:47.440 Wow.

07:29:48.780 Sick Wolf tab donated $19.99.

07:29:52.760 Can you misogynists please let Kenzie free already?

07:29:56.900 We've listened to you talking about grading your wife, Egyptian gods, the drafts, slur, and

07:30:03.160 more grading of wife for seven hours.

07:30:05.300 We get it.

07:30:06.900 Hail and well met.

07:30:08.140 Oh, it's Law Paladins.

07:30:09.380 Law Paladins donated $200.

07:30:11.320 Good to see you, man.

07:30:12.840 Haven't watched this debate yet.

07:30:14.360 Thank you.

07:30:14.740 But I can summarize.

07:30:16.140 Boys drool and girls drool.

07:30:18.100 That's why I identify as an orc.

07:30:20.680 The red pill men love women too.

07:30:22.840 But I bet this feminist would disagree.

07:30:24.860 Yo, Law Paladins.

07:30:27.060 Thank you so much, man.

07:30:28.240 It's been a minute.

07:30:28.920 I haven't seen you in a while.

07:30:30.840 But guys, can we get...

07:30:31.620 Guys, this is an OG supporter.

07:30:34.160 Can we get some W's in the chat for Law Paladins?

07:30:38.020 Excuse me.

07:30:38.500 Really good to see you, man.

07:30:39.900 Great to see you.

07:30:40.740 Thank you so much.

07:30:41.800 All right, guys.

07:30:42.400 So we're going to get this wrapped up here.

07:30:45.440 Guys, if you enjoyed the stream, you can like the video, please.

07:30:49.600 Also, final call for Twitch.

07:30:51.040 Guys, go to twitch.tv slash whatever.

07:30:52.980 Drop us a quick follow and a prime sub before I send out a raid.

07:30:56.420 Twitch.tv slash whatever.

07:30:58.260 Drop us a follow and a prime sub.

07:31:00.400 Also, guys, debateuniversity.com.

07:31:02.680 I've mentioned it a couple times tonight.

07:31:05.180 Debateuniversity.com.

07:31:06.160 Andrew has a program.

07:31:07.140 Verbal Combat.

07:31:08.040 If you want to become a master debater like the great Mike Caucasian,

07:31:12.060 Andrew Wilson, you need to go to...

07:31:14.160 Excuse me.

07:31:15.520 Debateuniversity.com.

07:31:16.360 You can get the program Verbal Combat.

07:31:19.200 Debateuniversity.com.

07:31:21.440 And we'll do...

07:31:22.200 If any of these come through, I'm going to do a Twitch raid.

07:31:24.500 We're not even going to pull it up.

07:31:26.060 On Twitch...

07:31:27.220 Do you know how to pull up...

07:31:28.620 Is it just the Twitch main camera?

07:31:30.920 No.

07:31:31.340 So it's...

07:31:32.140 You're going to have to go to the stream.

07:31:34.760 You know what?

07:31:35.160 I'm just going to do the raid.

07:31:35.980 Don't even worry about it.

07:31:36.820 Plague just because we're way over time now.

07:31:38.600 So don't even worry about it.

07:31:40.740 So yeah, guys.

07:31:41.560 Please kindly like the video.

07:31:42.900 Those of you watching on Twitch, I'm going to raid Peekaboo IRL.

07:31:48.000 He's playing World of Warcraft Classic Hardcore.

07:31:51.140 He's got a level 60 undead mage.

07:31:53.780 So I'm going to get that sent in just a second.

07:31:56.940 I do want to say thank you, everybody, for tuning in tonight.

07:32:01.240 We will be...

07:32:02.020 We've got a lot planned.

07:32:03.300 If you want to hear the schedule really quick, guys.

07:32:05.180 And tomorrow, dating talk, normal time, Monday, debate, Tuesday, debate, Wednesday, debate.

07:32:12.460 That's going to be at...

07:32:13.780 Let's see here.

07:32:15.280 We're aiming for like 4 p.m.

07:32:17.620 We might go live a little earlier.

07:32:19.740 Might be a little later.

07:32:21.060 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, 4 p.m.

07:32:24.400 Be sure to check it out.

07:32:28.340 Give me one sec here, guys.

07:32:30.820 And thank you to everyone who superchats, donates, and supports the show.

07:32:33.700 Like I said, dating talk tomorrow.

07:32:36.060 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, debates with the great, my Caucasian, Andrew Wilson.

07:32:42.280 Let's get some 07s in the chat, guys.

07:32:44.920 07s in the chat as I get things closed out here.

07:32:48.900 Okay, thank you guys for watching on Twitch.

07:32:50.340 I'm sending the raid right now.

07:32:52.020 Thank you guys for watching on Twitch.

07:32:53.780 Boom.

07:32:55.420 And then that should have gone out.

07:32:57.360 And then I'll do the intro, okay, Blake?

07:33:03.220 But give me one sec here.

07:33:05.100 And guys, can we get a little Ws in the chat for Blake?

07:33:07.800 He's the new recruit.

07:33:09.160 He was handling the 1s and 2s behind the scenes.

07:33:12.720 So W's in the chat for Blake there, new member of the team.

07:33:17.280 And just double-checking we're all good here.

07:33:19.860 Yeah, I think everything looks – you know what, Andrew?

07:33:23.540 One more bite.

07:33:24.180 Come on, bro.

07:33:24.560 No way.

07:33:24.960 Come on.

07:33:25.360 No way.

07:33:25.760 How about this?

07:33:26.900 Take one pineapple.

07:33:28.160 Just pluck it in.

07:33:29.500 Nope.

07:33:30.840 I wanted to punish you back for punishing me with that.

07:33:35.300 And I feel like I did that successfully.

07:33:37.180 By me not getting to see it.

07:33:38.780 By me not getting to see it, yeah.

07:33:40.160 Yeah.

07:33:40.700 It was pretty brutal.

07:33:41.920 It was like right there live and you didn't see it the whole time.

07:33:47.060 I just didn't even see it.

07:33:47.140 I didn't even see it.

07:33:48.080 It's like if you had sex with the world's hottest woman but you don't remember it.

07:33:52.920 It's like, what's the point?

07:33:54.820 It's like bragging rights but it's like you don't even –

07:33:57.720 Well, not only that.

07:33:58.580 You have to go back.

07:33:59.520 You will be able to see it but only the same way the whole audience did,

07:34:02.880 which robs you of the experience if I was there when that happened.

07:34:06.580 Damn.

07:34:08.100 I'm a –

07:34:08.580 You know what, Andrew?

07:34:09.220 I'm pretty happy about that.

07:34:10.320 Yeah, I'm going to be ordering pineapple pizza the next four days.

07:34:14.940 The next four days.

07:34:17.220 And I'm going to get a pineapple, a whole raw pineapple too.

07:34:21.080 All right, guys.

07:34:21.700 I hope you guys have a good night.

07:34:23.180 We will see you guys.

07:34:24.720 Oh, Andrew, he's coming back.

07:34:26.040 He's going to wave goodbye.

07:34:27.140 Take care.

07:34:27.940 Good night, guys.

07:34:28.960 Good night, guys.

07:34:30.240 See you.

07:34:30.600 Good night.

07:34:30.660 Good night.

07:34:30.700 Good night.

07:34:30.720 Good night.

07:34:30.760 Good night.

07:34:30.800 Good night.

07:34:30.860 Good night.

07:34:31.260 Good night.

07:34:31.320 Good night.

07:34:31.340 Good night.

07:34:31.360 Good night.

07:34:31.420 Good night.

07:34:31.480 Good night.

Whatever Podcast - March 16, 2025

1v1 DEBATE： Andrew Wilson vs. Marxist Anti-Trump Feminist ｜ Whatever Debates #11

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