Whatever Podcast

00:00:00.000 Welcome to a debate edition of the Whatever Podcast.

00:00:23.340 We're coming to you live from Santa Barbara, California.

00:00:25.920 I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas.

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00:01:04.120 Without further ado, I'm going to introduce our two debaters.

00:01:07.680 I'm joined today by Jim Bob.

00:01:09.440 He's a political commentator and political cartoonist for the Washington Examiner.

00:01:16.100 Also joining us today is Kyla, or as she goes online, not so erudite.

00:01:24.320 She has an undergraduate degree in psychology and a graduate diploma in psychometrics.

00:01:30.000 She's a content creator, streamer, and political commentator.

00:01:33.960 Thank you both for joining me today.

00:01:35.280 The topic of today's debate is feminism, and we've kind of spontaneously possibly added a few other prompts to...

00:01:44.200 You will each have up to a five-minute opening statement.

00:01:47.820 The rest of the show will be open conversation with a few breaks for audience messages.

00:01:52.920 At the end, you will each have up to a five-minute closing statement.

00:01:57.140 And Jim Bob, we're going to have you do your opening statement first.

00:02:00.060 Sure.

00:02:00.560 Go ahead.

00:02:00.880 All right.

00:02:01.860 Well, feminism, at least broadly stated, is the advocacy of equality of sexes.

00:02:09.260 Definitionally, that would be a movement away from a society that has men in power.

00:02:15.160 I would call that patriarchy.

00:02:17.160 Men holding the power, and women are largely excluded from those positions.

00:02:22.300 I see an immediate contradiction.

00:02:25.040 It would be up to my opponent tonight to redefine feminism to maybe get away from this contradiction.

00:02:30.620 But if feminism is some type of movement away from male power or a patriarchy, then any form of feminism that I can point to, or I think my opponent can point to, relies on that same power.

00:02:46.300 So, for example, if we go back to even the 18th Amendment before they had voting, they appealed to men, right?

00:02:53.340 When the 19th Amendment came along, they were actually still appealing to men.

00:02:58.420 So, the question is, well, is that a movement toward feminism, or is it just affirming the power that men actually have and sort of asking, like a parent, can they have a larger allowance this week?

00:03:11.120 I think it's the latter.

00:03:13.280 The funny thing about feminism is that while it's rooted in this sentiment that the patriarchy is this authoritative, oppressive regime, if we look back maybe around the 80s and onward, the voting patterns, ironically, from women are highly tilted toward expanding authoritative government power, which is kind of a funny irony.

00:03:35.920 The sentiment, again, is men oppress, we've got to break the oppressive patterns of society, and yet all of their voting patterns actually points to the opposite, expanding government authority, which another irony is that that government authority is mostly men.

00:03:52.300 The feminist screeches about liberty and autonomy, then votes for more government intrusion.

00:03:58.540 Now, while we have heard plenty from Andrew Wilson on the Force Doctrine, it is definitely an undefeated argument.

00:04:05.740 Even if you got a guerrilla to deliver the argument in sign language, it would still be better than any feminist argument I've ever heard.

00:04:13.980 However, we won't beat that horse to death, but I do want to include it in the debate.

00:04:18.700 I also want to include that feminism largely defined today, the metrics for feminism, the metrics for liberty, the metrics for well-being, is often placed on just mere maybe economic liberalism or some sort of outcome-based system that's measuring materialism, some type of wealth, some type of mobility economically.

00:04:46.940 And it's rooted in consumerism, which is kind of funny because the movement that feminism made throughout the last couple hundred years coincided with a predominantly male-run industrious part of society.

00:05:06.240 The industrialists, maybe they looked at the women and said, huh, that's a whole other taxable income right there.

00:05:15.260 They're just sitting ducks, right, safe in their home, raising the children.

00:05:19.120 We've got to get them out of there.

00:05:20.100 Let's get them in the workplace.

00:05:21.920 Let's get them with debt.

00:05:23.080 And lo and behold, many years later, women, I think now the percent is about 75%.

00:05:29.560 Women hold 75% of the consumer debt now.

00:05:33.940 So, you know, my opponent might define feminism as a good thing because it produces well-being.

00:05:40.940 I would argue even with the debt, holding debt, even the stress of debt as a man holding debt, the kind of stress that could put on you, I don't think that would add too much to your well-being.

00:05:52.320 There's other metrics you could look at to argue that the well-being is actually not great with the pursuit of pure materialism.

00:05:59.420 So if my opponent tonight offers a metric for the good rooted only in material outcomes, consumer outcomes, purchasing power, this type of thing,

00:06:12.760 I would just point out that the goodness of a society cannot be reduced and should not be reduced to strict materialism.

00:06:20.960 Let's see what else.

00:06:22.320 The other question is what's the payoff?

00:06:26.040 So when we advocate the basic feminist talking point is liberate the woman from this terrible home situation that they're in.

00:06:36.980 They're a slave to their man.

00:06:38.740 They're a slave to their husband.

00:06:39.900 They're a slave to their children.

00:06:41.620 I don't see many alternatives.

00:06:42.980 The alternative that I've seen in the last 30 years is mostly being a slave to more of a stranger of a man who's a CEO and your home becomes the office.

00:06:55.500 And I'm not sure what the tradeoff is because what happens with feminists is they basically forfeit their fertile years.

00:07:03.140 And then, you know, 20 years later, they wake up, they're 44, they have wine-stained teeth, they have seven cats, and they're wondering where all the men are.

00:07:11.780 Where are all the good men?

00:07:12.860 Well, I'll tell you where the good men are.

00:07:14.240 They're already married, and they're married to women who rejected feminism.

00:07:17.820 And lucky for them, they have children, they have a legacy, they have something bigger to live into than strict material wants and desires.

00:07:26.780 So, with that said, I just want to point out one more time the contradiction that's in feminism, and I don't know if my opponent will be able to get out of this.

00:07:37.120 If feminism is merely the advocacy of equality of sexes, but it depends on a structure that is demonstrable, it demonstrates inequality of the sexes, that is the society we live in.

00:07:51.760 So, in a weird roundabout way, any concept or application of feminism appeals to patriarchy.

00:07:59.580 So, in a rhetorical sense, feminism is still patriarchal.

00:08:04.360 It can't avoid it.

00:08:05.940 Patriarchy is a natural description of reality.

00:08:09.580 To argue for feminism is to argue with reality, and I think the way feminists generally argue, the way they generally live,

00:08:18.280 seems to be consistent with a constant rejection of reality.

00:08:23.500 Okay.

00:08:24.100 Kyla, what about you for your opening statement?

00:08:26.180 Awesome.

00:08:26.640 So, I'm super appreciative.

00:08:29.080 Jim and I talked beforehand just to make sure that for the viewers, we gave them a slightly different conversation,

00:08:33.860 because I know this is like feminism, too, for people who watched the previous debate.

00:08:38.160 So, maybe what I'll try to do in my intro is maybe outline where my feminism maybe differs from others,

00:08:47.460 and we can kind of get into that and kind of break down basically what I would view as like good feminism versus bad feminists.

00:08:56.200 So, feminism to me is a construct and an idea.

00:08:59.640 And so, within the idea, there is people.

00:09:03.180 There are feminists, and some of them are great, like Simone de Beauvoir.

00:09:06.880 Love her.

00:09:09.200 And Dietschy is an incredible writer.

00:09:11.160 And there are bad feminists, just like any movement and any idea.

00:09:15.220 The idea, to me, of feminism, I think it started out as this idea of equality for sexes,

00:09:20.140 and I think that that was important for the first initial waves.

00:09:22.460 I don't think feminists are being super honest with themselves if they say that that's what it's for now,

00:09:28.360 because I think we've achieved a lot of equality.

00:09:30.540 Women, by and large, have the same access to opportunities as men.

00:09:34.440 There are a couple of, like, soft cultural limits that I would agree to.

00:09:38.080 There's some certain cultural patriarchal elements that I think might still inhibit women a little bit.

00:09:42.940 But, by and large, women can go to school.

00:09:44.800 They can get a job.

00:09:45.640 They can apply for any job that a man can.

00:09:47.700 They essentially have all the same freedoms of opportunities that men do, which is awesome.

00:09:53.760 I think what feminism is doing now and should be focused on is essentially what I label feminism as,

00:10:00.220 which is a empowerment of women and a promotion of femininity.

00:10:07.980 And maybe for this conversation, we can focus specifically, at least for me, on the promotion of femininity,

00:10:13.800 because I think that that's the area that needs the most work.

00:10:16.320 I think third-wave feminism did a really good job at stretching the boundaries of what it meant to be a woman.

00:10:23.280 I think it opened up a lot of more masculine traditional roles for women that women couldn't really occupy before.

00:10:31.260 But I don't think that feminism's done a very good job of building its own table.

00:10:36.020 And that's what a lot of fourth-wave feminists kind of advocate for, is this kind of building of a new table and a promotion of femininity that isn't reliant on just, like, engaging in hyper-masculous structures.

00:10:51.560 Feminism that I don't stand by.

00:10:53.480 There's a lot of feminists, for example, that basically dismiss all male-related issues.

00:10:58.620 They think Passandria doesn't matter.

00:10:59.700 I reject those feminists.

00:11:02.620 We don't agree.

00:11:04.120 There are certain kind of dorkenites, for example, who, I would say just, Missandria feels like not even enough to describe the level of hatred she has for men.

00:11:15.700 I am not a dorkenite.

00:11:16.980 I don't apply to her ideas.

00:11:19.020 And, like, Gloria Steinem, she's a classical third-wave kind of lib feminist.

00:11:24.660 She's very fixated on just, like, women getting into careers, and that's kind of it.

00:11:28.920 She's, yeah, very fixated on women in careers.

00:11:32.380 And I don't care about that other than if women want to go into careers that they can.

00:11:37.560 So that would be my form of feminism.

00:11:39.540 I know that I didn't address a lot of your opening statement, but I did write it down.

00:11:42.560 So if you want to go back to anything, we totally can.

00:11:44.560 But, yeah, I think the feminism that focuses on promotion of femininity would be the most good for women now.

00:11:52.080 Okay.

00:11:52.480 So you said empowerment and femininity.

00:11:55.520 So let's do empowerment first.

00:11:57.660 Could you define empowerment from your perspective?

00:12:02.780 Yeah.

00:12:03.000 So for me, empowerment of women would be, like, removing obstacles for opportunity.

00:12:08.280 Okay.

00:12:08.620 So from your feminist view of empowerment plus femininity, would you say it's empowering for women to stay home and be mothers?

00:12:18.960 It can be if that's what they choose, yeah.

00:12:20.940 Okay.

00:12:21.540 And so if it's empowering for women to choose and they're choosing based on their femininity,

00:12:27.900 if it actually produced a large disparity where women actually found positions in society that were maybe lower in power,

00:12:38.100 administrative, helping, teaching, mothering, if that was the outcome of pure choice,

00:12:44.080 you wouldn't declare that there's some inequality or injustice between the disparity of men in power and women in lower positions.

00:12:54.180 I think you bring up a really good point.

00:12:55.360 In more egalitarian societies, we actually often see women trending towards more femme traditional roles.

00:13:01.440 Like, women tend to want to be nurses and teachers more often.

00:13:03.800 You see this in, like, Scandinavian countries.

00:13:05.740 And I will say, for the caveat, some people dispute that evidence.

00:13:09.260 The evidence, when I look at it, seems pretty robust.

00:13:11.720 So, yeah, I think women will often still trend towards some of those traditional gender roles, which I'm totally for.

00:13:17.060 I just want to make sure that they're choosing it and that the women who wouldn't be choosing that have the opportunity to choose something else.

00:13:23.340 Okay, and then is there any reason, from your view, choosing to be a mother at home and a wife,

00:13:29.180 is there any reason you could see that that's actually more empowering than an alternative?

00:13:34.200 For instance, let me give you a strict example.

00:13:36.460 Sure.

00:13:36.640 If a woman that you knew and loved, for instance, relative or friend, said,

00:13:42.680 you know what, I'm really drawn to being a mother.

00:13:45.100 I really am drawn to the traditional structure of life.

00:13:47.880 I could just really see myself raising, like, five kids.

00:13:52.960 But there's this other impulse of me that wants to just start an OnlyFans.

00:13:57.500 I don't know what it is about it.

00:13:59.300 Like, from a feminist view that you're defending today, is it either or is fine?

00:14:04.920 Or is one better for her and better for society?

00:14:07.720 I think that's a good question.

00:14:08.580 So when I think about, like, what's the best choice for somebody, I break it into three things.

00:14:13.980 Which is, the choices you make should be something that your past self, your present self, and your future self will consent to and like.

00:14:20.500 Right?

00:14:20.780 And so I think when you're posing this question, the OnlyFans option has a lot of potential acute short-term gain.

00:14:27.480 A fuckload of money, obviously.

00:14:29.540 But the important question is, will your future self consent to that and like it?

00:14:34.840 And I think that's a really big question.

00:14:36.100 And I think the answer for some women is yes.

00:14:38.520 I have met, like, Ayla Girl is a good example of somebody who I think has said yes to the OnlyFans sex work thing.

00:14:43.700 And it seems to genuinely bring a lot of fruit to her life.

00:14:47.660 But I think for, like, a lot of women that kind of get romanticized into sex work, they forget about their future selves because they think their future selves will be grateful for all the money.

00:14:57.620 When in reality, most women that do OnlyFans don't make that much money.

00:15:01.020 And also, you have to deal with the fact that your sex and body is public error.

00:15:05.620 Okay.

00:15:06.060 From the answer, it sounds like the lens you're using to determine your answer is purely individualistic.

00:15:14.340 It's decently individualistic.

00:15:15.840 Okay.

00:15:16.080 I would agree with that.

00:15:16.520 So, if it is mostly individualistic, and if your position, in this debate anyway, is you're taking the affirmative that feminism is good for society, which is beyond individualistic, right?

00:15:30.080 So, now you have to add in one more variable when you're coaching your friend here because what they determine they might like or not like in the future may not be tied directly necessarily to what's best for society.

00:15:45.020 I would agree.

00:15:46.020 Yep.

00:15:46.480 I would agree.

00:15:47.340 The caveat to that that I would basically poke is if individualism doesn't lead to a flourishing society, then why is it the case that the most individualistic country, i.e. America, is one of the most predominant countries in the world?

00:15:58.620 And so, I understand what you're saying.

00:16:00.400 There's a certain level of responsibility we should have to our community, essentially.

00:16:04.160 I just think that individualism often seems to somehow, I'm not even sure exactly the process, do this to some degree, which is why we have most individualistic nations being the strongest, most kind of happiest, highest GDP.

00:16:20.620 All the factors of goodness for the state.

00:16:23.980 Well, I mean, if you define good as merely productive, you could definitely do counterarguments of like, let's say Epstein-Neilin got off the ground and it's actually logically and practically possible for you to do horrific things in a society and still produce a high GDP.

00:16:43.560 But the other aspect of what you just said is that individualism, if it produces all of these goods, but what's best for society as a necessity is replacing your population, would you agree that we're not doing good in replacing our population?

00:17:03.100 Yeah.

00:17:03.480 I think birth rates being low is, it's very tied to kind of like liberal financial success and it's harmful.

00:17:12.800 I just don't think it's fundamentally tied.

00:17:14.940 I think actually going to Israel and seeing all these like liberal left-leaning Jewish people having 90,000 babies is a very, it's very interesting.

00:17:24.500 It's a very big counter to the standard liberal of like the more money a country makes, the less.

00:17:29.120 Well, the reason I brought that up is if the next generation of children and the generation after that is a necessity and a necessary component for a good society, regardless of what we agree on good is.

00:17:40.480 If that's necessary, I would argue that every form of feminism that I've seen, which is largely tied to individualism, doesn't actually have a way of advocating for that in a meaningful way.

00:17:52.940 So the philosophy itself is missing what I would call deontology or in simple terms, any duties.

00:18:00.340 So any feminism you don't like that I also don't like, there's no duties, there's no real true duties to say you're a feminist.

00:18:09.640 And even in the version that you're proposing, that's anti those other crazy ones, right?

00:18:14.340 You're against these crazy ones.

00:18:16.040 Even your position, there's no act, there's no real duty for a woman who's a feminist to produce the next generation.

00:18:23.540 And so this is why I measure it up against other cultures or other worldviews, in this case Christianity, has a built in, not that this debate is feminism versus Christianity, I just want to bring it in as a reference.

00:18:37.640 Is the missing element of duties, there's no obligation for you to influence another woman to have a child in a meaningful nudging way, right?

00:18:47.840 You know, like nudging.

00:18:48.720 I'm not talking about force.

00:18:50.040 I'm not talking about punishment for not having-

00:18:51.740 Promotion of it.

00:18:52.340 Yeah, super propagandized, right?

00:18:55.360 It, you would agree that feminism largely from the start until now is not only, I wouldn't say indifferent to family, but actually advocates against it.

00:19:07.120 The one you're arguing for, as I understand it, you're like, no, I've met a lot of feminists who want to have kids.

00:19:13.300 They're not this antinatalist like group.

00:19:16.040 But you'd have to concede that the most part, the propaganda that we see, the dominant narrative is basically anti-family, anti-children, pro-boss babe, go get it girl, sell your body girl, if you got it, flaunt it, this kind of thing, right?

00:19:32.760 And the reason I bring this up is that that kind of narrative, that kind of worldview is purely self-centered and doesn't actually produce what's necessary for a thriving society.

00:19:44.460 So even if I granted you, I don't concede to your metrics of what's good, but even if I granted you the whole thing, right, well-being, happiness, this, everything you could add, right, money, housing, whatever you want to add in there, it's all fairly meaningless if there's not a component that values reproducing society itself as a virtue, even.

00:20:08.920 So feminism itself has no virtues.

00:20:12.500 I wouldn't say feminism has no virtues.

00:20:14.680 It definitely has virtues.

00:20:16.280 I think there's a valid critique which is saying feminism doesn't celebrate motherhood enough.

00:20:22.540 I agree with that.

00:20:23.780 I think it's complicated when you look at antinatalism because antinatalism isn't a purely feminist thing.

00:20:32.160 There's a number of different philosophies and worldviews that are antinatalist, right?

00:20:35.760 And communism would be another example of one that tends to often be very antinatalist.

00:20:40.900 And I think antinatalism is death culty behavior.

00:20:44.540 I think it's very harmful.

00:20:45.260 Can I interrupt you?

00:20:46.120 Sure.

00:20:46.240 I want to ask you, why do you think it is that feminism, I agree there's antinatalists that maybe aren't feminists,

00:20:51.500 but why do you think it is that most feminists and the history of feminism is largely inextricably tied to an antinatalist sentiment?

00:21:01.660 That's a really good question.

00:21:02.400 So this might be where we first differ pretty significantly.

00:21:06.060 I think a large reason for why feminism has been so antinatalist is because the family and the duty of motherhood has been weaponized historically as a chain to enforce women stay home,

00:21:19.760 not be able to work, and not be able to basically choose autonomy.

00:21:22.180 Can I stop you there?

00:21:22.820 Before and during the suffragette movement, do you know that primarily the women who were being challenged to maybe grab their vote,

00:21:33.440 they opposed it willfully, happily, and they weren't under the impression that they were chained to their husband's lazy boy, right?

00:21:45.280 They took a position that, not only won, they didn't want the guarantor position of, let's say, credit.

00:21:54.640 They didn't want to be able to be also drafted and put into dangerous situations.

00:21:59.080 They also had a nice, hearty, moral lens that they all shared.

00:22:06.100 They were sort of like the moral barometers of the time.

00:22:08.380 And so they were actually, I would argue that pre-feminism, especially during that time frame where the, let's face it,

00:22:15.720 the really ugly women who couldn't find husbands were like, we need power, right?

00:22:20.480 They have power.

00:22:21.980 These other women are getting married.

00:22:23.840 All of the married women that you say are chained to their husbands, right?

00:22:27.600 They came out and said, we don't want the vote.

00:22:29.780 The suffragette movement actually stopped, tried to physically stop them from showing up to vote against their own vote.

00:22:38.040 So why is it that the majority of women at that time didn't share the sentiment that they were enslaved?

00:22:44.600 If they were enslaved, wouldn't they be coming out and saying, free us, free us from this terrible atrocity called motherhood?

00:22:52.060 Well, it's a little bit of a misnomer to tie their aversion to getting the vote to them claiming that they're not chained necessarily, right?

00:23:00.460 Their aversion to the vote was specifically because of drafting and some concerns about debt.

00:23:05.640 However, as the suffragette movement started taking off and women realized that black men were going to get the vote,

00:23:10.840 they began flocking towards the suffragette movement and became largely embraced.

00:23:15.120 And so while I would agree that the early suffragettes were some of the most dislikable women on the planet,

00:23:20.440 that doesn't change the fact that as time goes on, it very quickly becomes a deeply subsumed belief that increasingly most women across North America desired.

00:23:32.300 Okay. And I put it in my opening, the increase of women voting, the sentiment is more power, challenging the man, equalizing the power, offsetting the disparity of power.

00:23:44.600 Do you find it a bit ironic that every, that predominantly what women vote for enhances the power of man, essentially?

00:23:54.160 Because you're talking about big government, essentially, like it increases like welfare state.

00:23:57.840 I just think it's disanalogous to compare these two things.

00:24:00.200 I don't, I don't think that like social safety networks, for example, is in any way.

00:24:06.000 What about gun laws?

00:24:06.500 Yeah, I would agree that gun laws are, are more controlling.

00:24:10.880 The issue is that regulation, the reason that people like desire regulation is not necessarily in, in, in confluence or in, um, sorry, I'm getting tired.

00:24:21.980 Sorry, I'm losing my words.

00:24:23.040 It's, it's not, uh, in dissonance with wanting freedom, right?

00:24:27.460 There's this idea, it's actually popular within the church that to have true freedom, you need some level of like structure and like systems around you.

00:24:34.060 And so most liberals who are pro institutions and pro welfare states are also very pro freedom.

00:24:41.640 These two things aren't inherently disanalogous.

00:24:43.280 Do you, do you think that there's something about the nature or ontology of women, females, uh, that they're drawn to voting for more safe things, uh, against liberty, against, um, basically like here's a way of putting it rhetorically.

00:24:59.400 When women vote largely, they're voting for basically a daycare center.

00:25:05.040 They're like, they're, they're, they want society because it's their nature to, to basically look like a safe room where no one gets hurt because they see the world as kind of their, their children.

00:25:15.040 And that's actually a good trait.

00:25:16.660 It's just that it's misdirected.

00:25:18.180 This is why the, the question of the nature of men and women, uh, which we'll get into gender roles, uh, in society, that the nature of men and women actually directs and informs where they end up in the world, in society.

00:25:31.680 And so I think the feminist movement is some type of reaction that, um, tries to compensate for some perception of like, uh, inequality, but then overcompensates and throws women into situations where they really, they wouldn't end up if, if the choice was there anyway, for the most part.

00:25:50.720 Yeah. But the key part of the key element is the choice, right? Like choice and free will and ability to self-determine is like one of the most fundamental, it's one of the most fundamental things to our faith as well is this idea of free will and salvation.

00:26:05.880 Can a blind person use their free will to get the pilot job?

00:26:10.120 No.

00:26:10.600 Okay. So there are limitations, right?

00:26:12.400 Yeah, of course there's biological limitations.

00:26:14.220 So that's what I'm talking about. It's not the will.

00:26:15.980 If I could just answer you just a little bit at length, cause you said a number of things. So to respond to your like care orientation and voting, I would agree that in general, women tend to vote left and seem to be very care oriented. I just think that that's a good thing about society. I think a society that takes care of people who can't take care of themselves very well is good, right? I believe in social safety networks. I think that they're valuable to society. And I think the fact that women brought that into our policies is good.

00:26:41.900 While I'd also grant you that there are elements of major overstep. For example, gun laws. I'm not actually opposed to gun laws. I just think what happens with gun laws, for example, is the people that advocate them have no sophistication in gun technology.

00:26:56.240 Okay. So, well, yeah, women, generally speaking, don't have knowledge of how to operate a gun or have the strength to even operate a gun for the most part. And they're voting for gun laws and they don't know anything about guns. So that's what I'm pointing to is that their nature is actually towards safety, but they're actually asking men to basically legislate the safety and enforce the safety.

00:27:21.720 Well, they're asking authority.

00:27:23.160 Is men.

00:27:23.600 Again, if feminism is a thing, right, that you're arguing for, definitionally, like I talked, I asked you before the debate, is there a correction going on? So if feminism exists, it starts with the assumption that there's some sort of inequality, something that needs to be corrected, or even lightly that there's a disparity of power in the balance, right? A balance of power.

00:27:48.340 Can I ask you a question?

00:27:49.280 Yeah.

00:27:49.380 Let's go back. In the 1920s, could women own land?

00:27:52.640 I don't think so.

00:27:53.280 Could they go to school of their own free choice?

00:27:57.700 I'm not sure about that one.

00:27:58.940 I know that some of them could work.

00:28:01.500 There's a myth that they couldn't work.

00:28:03.240 I'm not sure what year.

00:28:05.160 But leading, you know, as time goes on, they didn't even get credit cards until 1970.

00:28:10.280 Sure.

00:28:10.680 I guess maybe a follow-up question to that would be, you probably don't think it's good that women can work or have land.

00:28:17.920 I don't want to put words in your mouth.

00:28:18.940 Is that correct?

00:28:19.320 I don't even think it's good that all men necessarily should vote.

00:28:25.720 Because land and voting, all these things were tied together back then.

00:28:29.820 And so the land question is, should women have land?

00:28:34.140 Well, if you bought the land, what do you have land for?

00:28:36.640 It's like you're not going to be the one defending it, ultimately.

00:28:39.620 It's going to be a man defending it.

00:28:40.820 So it's going to be fiat defending it, right?

00:28:42.920 And I don't...

00:28:43.940 Wait, what do you mean by that?

00:28:44.860 Well, what I mean by that is this idea where what you're talking about the enforcement arm, and we've talked about this before.

00:28:50.100 I think it's a very silly idea to basically steal the valor of a small select group of young, able-bodied men with a penchant for violence who are willing to enact order as saying that this is like men doing this thing.

00:29:04.180 Because it's like, well, sort of, but it's specifically, it's the same men that you're relying on.

00:29:09.520 Wait a second.

00:29:09.540 Do you get any of your feminist policy passed without the young, strapping group of men with a penchant for violence?

00:29:16.240 Yes.

00:29:16.700 No, you don't.

00:29:17.280 Yes.

00:29:17.660 No, you don't.

00:29:18.160 Yeah, most policy isn't passed through violence.

00:29:20.420 No, it's enforced with violence.

00:29:22.780 All policy is enforced with violence.

00:29:25.080 So, hold on, hold on.

00:29:26.860 If you pass a policy in a law...

00:29:29.200 Men don't get to steal valor from other men.

00:29:30.900 Hold on a second.

00:29:31.960 There's no valor.

00:29:32.760 We're not talking about valor.

00:29:33.600 The point is that there's a difference between a group of men and a group of women.

00:29:38.000 We're not saying that because a group of men hold this position of power that these other men get some type of privilege, right?

00:29:45.820 We're saying that men collectively, descriptively, that you're trying to say, oh, a penchant for violence, as if that's a bad thing.

00:29:54.140 No, it's not a bad thing at all.

00:29:55.300 So, it's like...

00:29:56.240 Hold on, just to be clear.

00:29:57.180 I don't think that's a bad thing.

00:29:58.140 Well, it sounded like a pejorative.

00:30:00.660 No, that would only be because if you think that I think violence is inherently evil, which I don't.

00:30:05.380 I like cops and soldiers.

00:30:06.600 So, you agree that if a woman had the money to buy land, you would agree that she couldn't actually defend it from intruders?

00:30:14.280 Well, with guns, she probably decently could.

00:30:16.980 But the reality is that the man would be able to defend it pretty similarly, especially with guns, right?

00:30:21.080 Okay, here's my question.

00:30:22.580 If the land-owning situation is a microcosm of society, does the man, in your view of feminism, have an obligation to defend anything?

00:30:33.680 If he owns...

00:30:34.680 Is he the landowner?

00:30:35.460 Any man.

00:30:35.700 Any man in society.

00:30:36.980 Whether it's at the land level or just a stranger walking down the street?

00:30:42.060 This is a really good clarifying question.

00:30:43.280 Most men don't have the obligation.

00:30:44.740 The men that do are the individuals who join the enforcement arm as authority.

00:30:48.580 That's actually not true.

00:30:49.820 Well, typically the police are required to respond.

00:30:52.260 Well, no, respond to a crime.

00:30:54.000 The police actually have no obligation in the U.S. to defend your property or your body.

00:30:58.440 Well, they do to an extent, right?

00:31:00.820 They don't.

00:31:01.480 Well, most cops don't intervene because it's hard to call the cops as things are going through.

00:31:04.720 No, it's a Supreme Court case, Colorado.

00:31:07.240 There's another one.

00:31:08.840 It's the whole protect and serve thing.

00:31:11.380 This is like people conflate this.

00:31:13.460 They think the cops are legally bound or somehow obligated to protect you and your property.

00:31:20.240 They're actually not.

00:31:21.120 Their job is to respond to a violation of law or something else.

00:31:25.340 So the violation could be someone hurt you.

00:31:28.760 The violation could be someone stole something.

00:31:30.980 But as far as defending it, the obligation is for you and your family to defend your life and others.

00:31:37.960 And so this is why I asked you a question.

00:31:39.620 Just to be clear, though, this is really muddy, right?

00:31:41.260 Because depending on the state that you're in, your ability to defend your land is actually very criminally questionable.

00:31:46.760 Because in some states, you can't really defend your land, right?

00:31:49.500 And so this idea that you're saying, like, cops don't have to defend you.

00:31:51.800 And why is that?

00:31:52.580 Well, hold on.

00:31:53.160 Hold on.

00:31:53.520 Just let me finish my thoughts, right?

00:31:54.840 In the case of cops, you're right.

00:31:56.840 You can't call them beforehand.

00:31:59.120 Well, actually, you can a lot of the time.

00:32:00.440 A lot of times, say you have a trespasser, you don't even have to defend your land.

00:32:03.900 You can oftentimes call the cops as long as you have a sign up, and they can show up and kick you off the land.

00:32:08.040 That's when they show up.

00:32:08.740 That would be the cop protecting your land, not you protecting your land.

00:32:11.580 That's if they show up.

00:32:13.420 Well, they usually do.

00:32:14.920 No, no, no.

00:32:16.040 Look, any time there's an...

00:32:17.520 Do you know how many self-defense instances are reported in the U.S. alone?

00:32:21.000 Oh, I'm sure super high, which is why there's less protections.

00:32:23.260 Yeah, I'm not opposed to self-defense, though.

00:32:25.140 Okay, hold on a second.

00:32:25.780 No, but you are opposed to self-defense.

00:32:27.480 No, I'm not.

00:32:27.920 Well, why is it that if you're defending feminism, and that includes females voting,

00:32:33.040 and females vote with patterns that lead to people's inability to use their own weapon?

00:32:38.920 Is that a good thing?

00:32:40.660 You're just creating like this...

00:32:41.660 No, no, no, I want to ask you a question.

00:32:43.000 Is it a good thing if the government passes legislation where a man or a woman has constrained

00:32:50.760 ability to defend themselves?

00:32:53.440 You would have to give me the exact specific policy.

00:32:55.000 Is it generally a good thing for society to restrict one's capability of using a gun in

00:33:02.340 their pocket as self-defense?

00:33:05.000 Again, I actually can't give you a super clear...

00:33:08.080 There are going to be instances where I think using a gun for self-defense is bad.

00:33:11.300 I don't like Florida's stand-your-ground policy, but there are also instances where you should

00:33:15.900 be able to, obviously.

00:33:17.060 If there's over a million, and that's only the ones that are reported, uses per year of

00:33:22.360 self-defense with a gun in the U.S., if that person wasn't allowed to use their gun in those

00:33:30.080 instances, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

00:33:32.380 That would be, for most of those cases, a bad thing.

00:33:34.960 If women voting results progressively in those instances not being able to occur because of

00:33:43.420 restrictive gun laws, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

00:33:46.060 This is just too reductive to say...

00:33:47.760 It's not.

00:33:48.300 It's not reductive because the stats show it.

00:33:50.720 Women vote in favor, tilted highly, to higher constraint of liberty, and especially regarding

00:34:00.000 guns.

00:34:00.340 They're like, ick, gun, scary.

00:34:02.220 Yeah, but so do black men at a higher level and black women, and older generations, especially

00:34:07.120 this last election, also tend to vote in this direction.

00:34:09.340 So when you're reducing these voting things, which are very multifaceted and complicated...

00:34:12.620 Well, no, no, no.

00:34:13.220 The disparity...

00:34:13.820 Hold on.

00:34:14.180 If you could just let me finish my thoughts.

00:34:15.260 No, the disparity with men and men is not the same as women, though.

00:34:18.260 If you don't mind, just let me finish my thoughts.

00:34:19.960 What you're doing, though, is you're taking these extremely complicated, multifaceted policy

00:34:25.060 things, and you're reducing it down to man versus woman, when that's not really the lens

00:34:29.100 by which you should be analyzing things like self-defense law.

00:34:32.020 Why not?

00:34:33.440 Because it's not helpful in any way.

00:34:35.560 Why are you saying it's multifaceted if I can demonstrate statistically that women collectively

00:34:40.720 voting, vote toward gun legislation and other things that restrict your ability to defend

00:34:47.500 yourself?

00:34:48.100 And men, even if you found men that didn't, the disparity between men and women is astounding

00:34:55.140 as far as those laws.

00:34:56.220 Sure, but that would then be presupposing that the women voting that way are specifically

00:34:59.920 because they want to reduce your self-defense things.

00:35:02.180 No, it's their nature.

00:35:03.820 I'm not blaming them for...

00:35:05.020 Their nature is to reduce self-defense?

00:35:06.100 No, no, no, their nature is to vote and act in defense, in nurturing, in protection kind

00:35:15.440 of thing.

00:35:15.760 Sure, but most women would actually probably be, like, most feminists, for example, I think

00:35:19.160 the gun is, like, the greatest feminist equalizer ever, right?

00:35:22.000 A lot of feminists are very pro-self-defense for pretty obvious reasons.

00:35:26.040 Yeah, but that doesn't deal with the fact that when women vote, even if I granted you

00:35:32.520 those awesome women...

00:35:33.620 But they're not voting for self-defense.

00:35:34.660 They're typically going to be voting for things like abortion policy and, like, welfare state.

00:35:38.300 Why is it that they vote in favor of policies that restrict your ability for self-defense,

00:35:43.680 then?

00:35:43.840 They don't vote in favor of policies that restrict your self-defense.

00:35:46.400 They typically vote for Democrat politicians who embody their values more at a broad caretaking

00:35:52.560 level.

00:35:52.720 Okay, so got it.

00:35:53.880 So women vote not based on particular things that they look into, but a general feeling

00:35:58.820 of the person who's talking embodies their value.

00:36:01.560 That's even a worse argument for females.

00:36:03.040 I don't know why you're strongmaning me like that.

00:36:04.660 What is it they're discerning from the...

00:36:07.060 What's an embodiment?

00:36:09.140 Well, when you look at a politician and you're deciding to vote for them, most people are,

00:36:14.220 like, one to three main things that they vote for.

00:36:16.720 It's usually for women, some level of women's rights, economy, and housing crisis, especially

00:36:21.760 in the last election, right?

00:36:23.220 And so when they're looking at a politician that they're deciding on, those are typically

00:36:27.000 the top three things that they're deciding to vote for.

00:36:29.040 They're not like going down the line and being like, man, does this person let me do self-defense

00:36:33.200 or not?

00:36:33.440 In fact, a lot of women will rail against Democrats when they try to do self-defense.

00:36:36.520 I know, but this is really bizarre because the narrative from women is that men are dangerous

00:36:40.440 and they, you know, you got to watch out for men.

00:36:43.500 And I agree, men are dangerous.

00:36:44.940 You should watch out for men.

00:36:45.980 But the thing is, it's bizarre to have a narrative that primarily is women need to be protected,

00:36:53.500 men are dangerous, we got to look at this assault stuff, people are essayed all the time, and

00:36:59.020 then to prioritize voting based on what?

00:37:03.040 Like, if the outcome of voting is that not only you as a woman can't legally use a gun,

00:37:09.380 but also men can't use a gun to even protect you properly, what are they prioritizing above

00:37:15.900 that?

00:37:16.720 Things like housing crisis and economy.

00:37:19.700 That's what women voted for a lot more than this?

00:37:21.400 I thought feminism sorted that out.

00:37:25.180 What?

00:37:25.620 When has feminism had much more sophisticated economic policy?

00:37:30.420 Your argument for feminism being good is based on the economy.

00:37:36.320 Yeah, but that's not the same thing as women voting for the, like, using feminism as an

00:37:41.800 economic analysis system.

00:37:42.840 Okay, let's do it this way.

00:37:43.620 What do you think, from your view of feminism, is the most important issue given that you

00:37:49.360 have a vote?

00:37:50.980 The most, the single most, like, the top, the top of the top.

00:37:55.220 Sorry, can you say that again?

00:37:56.340 What's the most important thing from your feminist view?

00:37:59.700 Not the one, not the way...

00:38:01.100 I don't, feminism is not the main thing that makes me vote.

00:38:03.060 It's usually economic policy and foreign policy.

00:38:05.340 I vote for foreign policy mostly.

00:38:07.220 Foreign policy?

00:38:08.060 Yeah, I care a lot about foreign policy.

00:38:09.680 Okay.

00:38:09.940 Yeah, like sovereignty.

00:38:11.540 I care a lot about sovereignty.

00:38:13.160 Okay, so if there was something to vote for for feminists, you're going to say, vote

00:38:19.120 based on foreign policy?

00:38:20.840 I would be most, for most women, I would say probably feminism shouldn't be your number

00:38:25.420 one priority.

00:38:26.100 I think, like, the housing crisis and the wealth disparity is a much bigger issue than, like,

00:38:29.680 cultural patriarchy.

00:38:30.520 And I think you've got, like, you're being a gender opportunist.

00:38:33.800 You're fixating on the wrong thing.

00:38:34.940 I think feminists voting for, like, purely feminist stuff isn't even that common.

00:38:39.960 Again, most women in this election voted for housing, economy, and then after that was

00:38:47.300 abortion rights.

00:38:48.140 Okay, so I guess I'm going to ask you, is there a correct feminist view?

00:38:53.520 No.

00:38:54.480 Feminism is, like, a constant moving concept that's developing through conversation, like

00:39:00.280 most philosophical concepts.

00:39:01.260 So if concepts, there's no correct concept for feminism, meaning that means that there's

00:39:08.340 no correct application for feminism.

00:39:10.880 There's no, when you say correct, I guess I'm answering it, and, like, there isn't a perfectly

00:39:14.920 fixed idea of what feminism is, because feminism is fundamentally a dialogue, like most philosophies,

00:39:21.460 right?

00:39:21.560 Okay, but dialogues don't make societies run.

00:39:25.460 So, like, I obviously think my version of feminism is the best version of feminism, but

00:39:31.100 that doesn't mean it, like, ontologically is.

00:39:32.140 Is there any standard that determines your version of feminism is the best or the correct

00:39:38.020 one?

00:39:38.320 I think it's the most consistent.

00:39:40.600 I think it leads to the highest level of, like, opportunity and flourishing for both,

00:39:44.780 like, men and women, but mostly for women.

00:39:47.000 Okay.

00:39:47.440 Yeah.

00:39:47.640 The thing is, if you say it's just a concept, like, premise one is, feminism is just a concept.

00:39:54.400 Premise two, it's a dialogue.

00:39:57.060 Like, the follow of those two, right, if it's just a concept and just a dialogue, then when

00:40:02.780 we ask what the application is, that means, like, let's, like, use an analogy.

00:40:06.340 Um, I design a car that's just a concept in the computer, and then I go, okay, it's a

00:40:13.580 concept, but it can be turned into reality.

00:40:16.380 And so, what I'm asking you is, what is your concept of feminism, and how is it accurately

00:40:24.440 or appropriately applied to society?

00:40:27.340 Because if it's just a concept, just concepts, do we agree, concepts themselves don't make

00:40:33.260 reality function, right?

00:40:34.460 Yeah, I, no, I totally disagree with that.

00:40:36.740 I think, like, social normative concepts are, like, the backbone by which zeitgeists emerge.

00:40:41.680 Like, I think the way that we view the world is rooted in concepts.

00:40:45.220 Does a concept act on matter?

00:40:47.820 Uh, through people, sort of, yeah.

00:40:49.980 Like, by, like, it depends on what you mean by act on matter, right?

00:40:53.420 Like, me sitting here talking about feminism, am I acting on matter?

00:40:56.860 Okay, look, are you a concept, or are you a material body?

00:41:00.800 I'm a person.

00:41:01.580 Okay, are you a material body?

00:41:02.920 Yes.

00:41:03.240 Okay, so concepts, do concepts knock over cups?

00:41:08.820 Are you familiar with Plato?

00:41:10.440 I'm not really...

00:41:10.840 I'm just asking you a question.

00:41:11.820 Does a concept knock over a cup?

00:41:14.600 Um, it depends on what you mean by, sort of.

00:41:17.800 No, my hand does, but, like, the idea...

00:41:19.640 Can you knock over a cup with a concept?

00:41:21.780 No, it's immaterial.

00:41:22.340 It's immaterial.

00:41:23.260 Gotcha.

00:41:23.480 So, if concepts immaterial, um, concepts being that they can't knock over a cup, a concept

00:41:29.680 can't actually build society.

00:41:31.880 I, I'm sorry, what's, what's democracy?

00:41:35.740 Like, concepts...

00:41:36.860 Democracy is force.

00:41:38.320 No, it's not.

00:41:39.040 Yes, it is.

00:41:39.740 Democracy started as a, as a political philosophy, right?

00:41:42.800 Like, like, I don't know, I don't, I don't know what you'd do with philosophy if you think

00:41:46.640 that concepts don't emerge and affect reality.

00:41:49.160 I didn't say concepts don't have a relation to reality.

00:41:52.960 I'm making a distinction because you said feminism is just a concept.

00:41:57.060 If it's just a concept...

00:41:58.360 It's a concept, it's a dialogue, it's an action.

00:42:00.240 If it's, if it, well, that's what I'm trying to ask you.

00:42:02.280 What is the action of feminism?

00:42:04.460 Sure, just, just to be clear, because I don't know why you're making all these, like, weird

00:42:07.500 distinctions.

00:42:08.260 A lot of times what happens, and the way that I think that how people create, and this is

00:42:12.520 honestly, like, platonic forms at this point, is we, like, understand the concept of a thing.

00:42:16.940 So, maybe the concept of the thing that you care about is women are being unfair to men,

00:42:22.360 and that's a concept just in your mind.

00:42:23.840 But what happens when you hold that belief is that it shapes how you view the world,

00:42:28.880 it shapes what information that you take in to reinforce that, and it shapes how you

00:42:32.420 act upon that world.

00:42:33.460 We agree that concepts inform action, but concepts are not actual things that do anything.

00:42:38.920 So, that's why I'm asking you, if feminism is just a concept, what's this bridge between

00:42:45.040 the concept and its application?

00:42:47.060 Like, for instance, what does it look like for you to apply feminism in your ideal...

00:42:52.540 Okay, so you just want policies?

00:42:53.840 Anything, yeah, anything.

00:42:54.900 What does a family look like?

00:42:57.680 Probably in North America, by and large, nuclear seems to be the best structure.

00:43:02.340 I would prefer more intergenerational than what we have.

00:43:04.900 I think intergenerational homes tend to be better, but I would also be open to, like,

00:43:09.200 more commune-style living, like, village families.

00:43:12.960 Okay, so a family unit, are you saying a mother?

00:43:16.540 Is it best for a mother, a father?

00:43:19.260 By and large, or at least two parents that, like, occupy those types of roles.

00:43:22.420 Okay, so basically a traditional-looking, reflective of a traditional family.

00:43:27.680 So, that's good for society?

00:43:29.180 By and large, yeah.

00:43:29.900 And you're saying, from your view, that's feminist?

00:43:32.600 I wouldn't say that that's feminist.

00:43:34.500 I would just say that that's, like, what's good for society.

00:43:36.700 Okay, but if...

00:43:37.440 Not everything has to be feminism, right?

00:43:39.040 Okay, so if that's good for society, is that counter-feminism?

00:43:42.180 So, can I actually ask you a question, just to see if you understand me?

00:43:46.200 How, on my list of, like, top five ideas and things that I care most about, where do you

00:43:52.000 think feminism falls?

00:43:53.180 Like, do you think feminism is, like, number one?

00:43:55.200 Just take a guess.

00:43:56.220 Three.

00:43:57.140 Three?

00:43:58.220 It's not even on my top five.

00:43:59.660 I think it's, like, not that important.

00:44:01.240 I'll debate with you on it, because I'm interested in it.

00:44:03.200 Feminism's not that important for society.

00:44:05.240 No, because I think it's done most of what it needed to do.

00:44:07.620 There's little elements left, for sure.

00:44:09.060 What did it do, it convinced a bunch of chicks to kill their babies, or to delete their babies?

00:44:14.180 Well, some of it did that, right?

00:44:15.760 A lot of it did that.

00:44:16.780 Yeah, abortion, obviously, which is, like, a tragedy, but it also did things like let

00:44:21.160 women have access to the workplace, allow them to access education, allow them to self-determine,

00:44:25.580 allow them to own land, allow them to have paying power, allow them to have leverage

00:44:29.300 for society, allow them to have the vote.

00:44:31.460 You have to let me finish my thoughts.

00:44:32.720 It's a prattle.

00:44:33.460 Hold on a second.

00:44:34.160 You can't call everything that I say prattle because you want to interrupt.

00:44:36.840 I didn't see the word prattle once this whole time.

00:44:38.660 You literally just said prattle.

00:44:40.100 I just said it.

00:44:40.600 Yep.

00:44:40.860 You said every time.

00:44:41.860 I didn't do it every time.

00:44:43.080 That's a plural.

00:44:43.720 Sorry, you're right.

00:44:44.160 I'm having flashbacks from our last debate and Jay's debate.

00:44:46.900 Sorry to interrupt you.

00:44:47.620 I just want to, because I don't want to forget what you're saying, is that it's actually

00:44:51.900 not true that feminism produce working women.

00:44:55.400 Women could work before largely what you think feminism is.

00:44:58.480 Yes?

00:44:59.260 No?

00:44:59.620 Hold on.

00:45:00.180 Hold on.

00:45:00.400 Hold on.

00:45:00.600 This is a major myth, audience.

00:45:02.280 I want you to know this.

00:45:03.680 The feminist always comes in with this story that feminism saved the woman from the home

00:45:08.800 and then they're allowed to work.

00:45:10.400 That wasn't actually the case.

00:45:11.900 Women could work.

00:45:13.100 It just happened to be the case that traditional values were the norm and rightly so that women

00:45:18.720 valued in their society and in their home the position of the mother as one of the most

00:45:23.880 important, still today, one of the most important roles to play for women in society.

00:45:30.180 They just held that belief.

00:45:31.880 They weren't chained, not working.

00:45:33.860 They could work.

00:45:34.720 They just chose the value correctly to stay at home, that the best thing for society and

00:45:39.960 their family is to raise good children, to be present with their children, to organize

00:45:45.860 the house, to make the house a small type of organized government, if you will.

00:45:51.100 And this is what happened.

00:45:52.520 Feminism came in and smeared what motherhood is.

00:45:56.100 It smeared what the role in the family is.

00:45:58.580 It basically poisoned the well and said, that's icky.

00:46:02.280 You want liberation.

00:46:04.100 You want freedom.

00:46:05.360 And guess what it resulted in?

00:46:06.780 More debt for women, more sexually transmitted diseases for women, higher body counts for women,

00:46:13.900 and ultimately, the thing that they...

00:46:16.640 What do you think the biggest leverage is for women?

00:46:19.480 What is your biggest leverage point?

00:46:22.520 In society.

00:46:23.060 If men's leverage is force, brute force, aggression, what do you think women's leverage is?

00:46:29.460 Probably sex.

00:46:30.540 Sex.

00:46:31.500 Can I go back to your narrative, though?

00:46:32.800 Can I respond?

00:46:33.720 One more.

00:46:34.100 I promise.

00:46:34.660 I promise.

00:46:35.160 I'll let you respond.

00:46:35.780 Okay.

00:46:36.180 Sex, though.

00:46:36.900 Largely, I know you take a very particular unorthodox feminist view, but largely, if we're generally

00:46:45.180 arguing against feminism, has feminism perverted and sold women's leverage, which is their sex,

00:46:53.240 and convinced them to completely make it for free, as if that's liberation?

00:46:57.620 I would not fully.

00:46:59.500 The sexual revolution, I think, is kind of shit, but I would not fully agree with that

00:47:02.980 statement.

00:47:03.300 Is it empowering for women to collect body counts?

00:47:08.600 No.

00:47:09.200 Can I go back to actually responding to your entire thing?

00:47:11.560 Sure.

00:47:11.640 No, I don't think this idea of collecting body counts is good.

00:47:14.320 The issue is that most women don't think collecting body counts is good.

00:47:18.740 I think it's a very niche.

00:47:20.140 Yes, you deal with a lot of OnlyFans models, but that's obviously not the average woman.

00:47:23.980 You are dealing with a high selection bias.

00:47:25.360 So, just to go back to this narrativizing that you did.

00:47:27.720 So, women work.

00:47:29.620 You said women were able to work.

00:47:31.560 They just chose to be in the home.

00:47:32.920 Well, actually, women always worked.

00:47:34.860 They just did farm labor and also domestic.

00:47:38.660 The main thing is that they never received any ability to convert that work into anything

00:47:44.140 leverageable within society, like money or ownership.

00:47:46.760 Why would that happen?

00:47:49.340 Because being able to have money and able to liberate some level of autonomy is one of

00:47:54.700 the foundations to be able to make a choice.

00:47:56.460 For example, if a woman is in an abusive relationship with a husband who is harming her and her children,

00:48:01.440 back in the 1910s, when her farm labor would never translate to any goods and to anything

00:48:06.160 that she can claim as her own, she can never leave that situation.

00:48:08.880 Okay, okay, stay there, stay there.

00:48:10.360 In this situation, let's say she was liberated and she was working.

00:48:14.620 Do you know who's going to abuse the kids then?

00:48:16.820 The man is still abusing the kids.

00:48:18.020 No, the people who are watching the kids because the mother's not home watching the kids.

00:48:22.160 So, it's like, you're like, you set up this hypothetical where if the woman could work,

00:48:27.960 then she can set up this sort of like dowry, escape dowry, right?

00:48:31.940 You're missing my point.

00:48:32.660 But no, hold on, hold on, the thing is, if the woman's out in the workforce, she's not

00:48:36.940 at home getting abused.

00:48:38.200 Jim, you have to engage with my points, right?

00:48:40.320 You have to engage with what I'm saying.

00:48:41.640 That's literally what you said.

00:48:42.520 That's not what I said, and if you keep erecting strawmans of me, then we can't talk.

00:48:46.280 What did you say then?

00:48:47.360 What I said is that what happens when, back in the 1910s era, is that they were working,

00:48:52.740 women have always been working through all of history, just as hard as men, just doing

00:48:56.620 more domestic, agrarian-style jobs.

00:49:00.600 The main thing-

00:49:01.260 Just as hard as men?

00:49:02.060 A lot of times, they're working all day, taking care of the children, and then also

00:49:05.860 milking the animals, helping plow, doing willow work.

00:49:09.280 Just as hard as men?

00:49:10.380 Yeah, I would just say it's different work.

00:49:12.040 Men are in the mines, but that doesn't mean-

00:49:14.000 Oh, just as hard, though.

00:49:15.540 It's more physically destructive on the body, but in converse, women are-

00:49:20.420 Just as risky?

00:49:21.720 I didn't say just as risky.

00:49:22.700 I'm just asking.

00:49:23.460 No, it's not just as risky.

00:49:24.660 Yeah.

00:49:26.680 I don't know why you keep doing these.

00:49:27.740 Well, I'm talking about, well, what's the risk and reward?

00:49:29.980 But I'm asking you to just engage with me.

00:49:32.260 Like, just talk to me.

00:49:33.120 Talk to me about my ideas.

00:49:34.040 I understand.

00:49:34.800 I'm trying to summarize what you're saying.

00:49:36.520 You're saying, back in the day, women are working on the land, and sweating, and taking

00:49:40.500 care of the kids, and cooking, and all these things.

00:49:42.540 But what's the problem with it?

00:49:44.060 Yeah, well, what is the problem with it?

00:49:45.500 Well, I said that.

00:49:46.460 Do you not remember?

00:49:46.920 You said the problem is, in the instance where they're beaten, they, what?

00:49:51.740 What's the alternative?

00:49:52.920 I don't understand.

00:49:53.900 Okay.

00:49:54.340 So, the beaten was an example of why it's really important to have something like purchasing

00:49:58.040 power.

00:49:58.500 It's really important to have some level of ownership of, like, goods, so that you can,

00:50:02.000 like, exchange and move and, like, autonomize within the world.

00:50:05.160 Like, the exchange of goods and basic economics is, like, one of the most fundamental things that

00:50:10.280 bring, like, peace and freedom globally.

00:50:12.220 It's very, very important to be able to own goods, to be able to exchange those goods for

00:50:16.600 other goods, and to have some level of choice as a result of that.

00:50:19.520 Okay, I understand.

00:50:19.940 And women would work and be barred access to ownership of these things.

00:50:24.320 That sounds like you're arguing for a norm based on an exception.

00:50:27.820 Nope.

00:50:28.260 Yeah, you are.

00:50:28.840 If you're assuming that there's enough women in that scenario who are going to be in a

00:50:33.980 situation that justifies that they have some sort of escape plan, your entire foundational

00:50:39.660 argument is this, women should have purchasing power and be able to have money to do things

00:50:45.640 in the event they have to leave their husband or their family, whereas you're basically presenting

00:50:51.220 one scenario and making a rule based on one potential scenario where a woman needs an escape

00:50:57.480 route.

00:50:57.820 Well, it's a decently common scenario.

00:51:00.400 That's one of the reasons why it's important for women to have rights.

00:51:03.000 Another one, if we connect it to the vote.

00:51:04.840 One of the reasons why it's so important to give the society the ability to vote is

00:51:09.580 because it transfers your autonomy and authority to an elected individual, and that individual

00:51:16.980 makes choices, ideally on your behest.

00:51:19.620 And as a woman, until you have the right to vote, you don't have any ability to have a

00:51:24.660 say in what policy societies have over you.

00:51:26.860 Guess what?

00:51:27.100 You don't have a say.

00:51:27.900 Historically.

00:51:28.440 You don't have a say.

00:51:29.100 Of course you do.

00:51:29.760 No, you don't.

00:51:30.280 Unless you just don't believe in democracy.

00:51:31.380 I will tell you right now why you don't have a say.

00:51:33.440 Oh, can you let me?

00:51:34.360 I'll tell you what.

00:51:34.880 Hold on.

00:51:35.100 Jim, you don't let me finish on my thoughts.

00:51:36.380 No, you said a lot there.

00:51:37.140 One at a time.

00:51:37.820 No, one at a time.

00:51:38.860 Jim, you interrupted me as I was talking.

00:51:40.240 Let's say 40 words per 40 words, okay?

00:51:43.500 Okay, let's do one, because then I'll forget what you said, and then I won't be able to

00:51:46.560 respond to you.

00:51:47.640 Okay, so you just said women need voting because they need to be able to influence policy and

00:51:55.700 have a say in the society, right?

00:51:57.800 That's one of the values of voting, yeah.

00:51:59.440 Okay, so women have a say in the society, but women aren't obligated to uphold and to

00:52:06.460 defend the policies with force.

00:52:09.780 Nobody is obligated to.

00:52:11.160 Got it.

00:52:11.760 So nobody is obligated.

00:52:13.500 So you're arguing for women to be able to vote from the allowance of men.

00:52:20.980 Men permit you to vote.

00:52:22.940 Nope.

00:52:23.420 Yes, they do.

00:52:24.360 Not really.

00:52:24.900 No, a small group of able, but, well, first of all, again, you're going down the enforcement

00:52:29.800 arm.

00:52:30.240 Are you a police officer or military?

00:52:31.820 No.

00:52:32.380 So you are reliant on the same men that I am.

00:52:34.540 That's right.

00:52:34.920 They're men.

00:52:35.880 That doesn't matter.

00:52:36.740 They're not a class.

00:52:37.040 Yes, it does matter.

00:52:37.580 You don't get to steal the valor of them.

00:52:38.520 They're not women.

00:52:39.520 You don't get to turn to women as a man who's not in any of these enforcement arms.

00:52:42.580 Why am I, how am I taking valor?

00:52:43.860 I'm the one giving you the rights.

00:52:44.520 That's not true.

00:52:45.200 How am I taking valor?

00:52:46.000 Because what you're doing is you're looking at policemen and soldiers who are doing a

00:52:49.980 duty to their nation by protecting people's rights.

00:52:51.660 Well, no, you said it's not a duty.

00:52:53.880 Well, once they sign up.

00:52:54.960 You contradicted yourself.

00:52:56.000 I'm not.

00:52:56.360 It's not a contradiction.

00:52:57.520 Look.

00:52:57.680 When, hold on, do not interrupt me this time.

00:52:59.600 When men or women join the police force, they take a whole bunch of promises and solidarities.

00:53:04.160 Right.

00:53:04.280 Just like when a doctor joins the doctor force.

00:53:07.520 They have to take a whole bunch, like the Hippocrat is, hold on, oath.

00:53:11.000 And so the idea of duty, yes, once you enroll in a job voluntarily and agree to both the

00:53:16.680 responsibilities and the benefits and the power and the wage that is conferred by that,

00:53:20.760 now you have duties.

00:53:21.960 Police officers have a duty to enforce the law.

00:53:25.280 What?

00:53:25.760 When you vote, what's your duty?

00:53:27.360 After you vote.

00:53:28.220 To be an informed voter.

00:53:29.740 You're, you're, okay, cool.

00:53:31.480 So Hak Tua, who's not an informed voter, could vote because she's a woman, right?

00:53:34.940 Yep.

00:53:35.320 Okay.

00:53:35.620 You just said she has a duty to be an informed voter.

00:53:37.900 Yeah, but that doesn't mean that like you would take away.

00:53:40.120 Well, hold on.

00:53:41.000 If you, if, is there any consequence to not fulfilling your duty in your worldview?

00:53:45.900 Uh, like not being an informed citizen?

00:53:48.640 Yeah, Hak Tua votes.

00:53:49.660 Yeah, you get a situation where the politicians increasingly don't represent you and then you

00:53:53.900 bitch and whine about how bad the politicians are, but they're bad because you're never actually

00:53:57.680 voting for who you want.

00:53:58.500 Okay.

00:53:58.880 Yeah.

00:53:59.080 Look, would you agree that the act of voting for men collectively, the act of voting is

00:54:06.880 an agreement that they're not going to rebel?

00:54:10.300 No.

00:54:10.960 You don't, you don't agree with that?

00:54:12.400 Uh, just for men?

00:54:14.400 Well, no, I'm saying men first.

00:54:15.780 I'm saying when, when a bunch of men vote and they say, I'm going to vote, they're basically,

00:54:21.200 they're, they're signing something and checking something off that might become policy and

00:54:26.520 they're outsourcing the force.

00:54:29.180 In my case, I'm not the force, right?

00:54:30.740 When I vote, I outsource the force, right?

00:54:33.240 Stolen valor, right?

00:54:34.460 To police.

00:54:35.180 Got it.

00:54:35.500 No, police and the, and the military and everyone else, right?

00:54:37.740 Sure.

00:54:37.920 When I outsource the force by voting, I'm basically agreeing with other men in my position that

00:54:45.720 we're not going to take up arms and rebel.

00:54:48.440 We're not going to start a civil war.

00:54:49.900 It's an agreement.

00:54:51.060 Correct?

00:54:51.900 Uh, this is like not the, that is the basis for voting representation, right?

00:54:57.660 If you don't have representation and you're, you're, you're basically representatives don't

00:55:02.360 represent you and, and they get all wonky, right?

00:55:04.880 That's why there's a militia.

00:55:06.300 That's why men can take up arms and actually have a revolutionary fight, right?

00:55:10.580 This is historical, right?

00:55:12.880 The problem.

00:55:13.720 Yes.

00:55:14.200 Okay.

00:55:14.580 Hold on.

00:55:15.140 No, the whole, I get to respond now.

00:55:17.100 40 for 40, right?

00:55:18.100 The issue that you're doing here is you're, again, you're creating this like simplified narrative

00:55:22.160 to work to like your argument when things are not that simple.

00:55:25.040 It is that simple.

00:55:26.460 It is that simple.

00:55:27.220 The, when you vote, all you're saying is that I'm willing to participate to be a citizen

00:55:31.840 in whatever that looks like.

00:55:33.060 I'm also, got you.

00:55:33.560 But participating as a citizen is an agreement to not rebel, right?

00:55:37.600 Uh, I suppose more like not to break the rules.

00:55:40.660 It's not about not rebelling.

00:55:41.880 No, not just, no, not just breaking the rules, taking over the government with force with other

00:55:45.620 men.

00:55:46.220 It's an agreement, right?

00:55:48.160 Sure.

00:55:48.560 Great.

00:55:48.820 That's all I needed from you.

00:55:49.580 Sure.

00:55:49.860 So when men collectively vote and they say, I'm forfeiting my, my ability to get collectivized

00:55:56.180 with other men, hold on a second, dude, hold on a second, you can vote and then be dissatisfied

00:56:01.580 with the government and rebelling, you're not forfeiting it.

00:56:03.740 That's right.

00:56:04.180 Hold on.

00:56:04.400 Why are you saying this?

00:56:05.120 No, because you can do that at any time.

00:56:07.660 Men can do that at any time.

00:56:08.760 Look, hold on a second.

00:56:09.740 Hold on a second.

00:56:10.360 If I vote and I feel disenfranchised or lied to, I could still do two things, right?

00:56:16.220 I could either rebel or I could vote again the next time, right?

00:56:21.640 There's two choices.

00:56:23.060 Every, I'm saying every time you vote, you're choosing not to do violence.

00:56:26.380 I'm not saying you can't do violence the next time around.

00:56:28.340 I'm saying in that instance, you're choosing to vote instead of violence, right?

00:56:32.660 Uh, yes.

00:56:34.140 Great.

00:56:34.600 Again, hold on.

00:56:35.380 Hold on.

00:56:35.700 Hold on.

00:56:36.000 Hold on.

00:56:36.180 Let me run the argument.

00:56:37.560 40 for 40.

00:56:38.240 I can't because all you're doing is building this like really silly narrative.

00:56:42.540 I am building a strong argument against you and you're trying to stop it.

00:56:44.620 You're trying to block it.

00:56:45.300 Well, this is the issue, right?

00:56:46.520 We get to like dialogue means we both get to talk.

00:56:49.000 A line of argument, you need to accept it.

00:56:51.060 If I don't get to respond to anything and you just keep like prattling, I'm like, I guess

00:56:55.460 I can leave and you can talk to my chair.

00:56:57.620 Now try to stall.

00:56:58.340 Go ahead.

00:56:58.700 Do you want to talk to my chair or do you want to talk to me?

00:57:00.480 Try to stall the line of argument.

00:57:02.100 Okay.

00:57:02.380 The issue is that when you're simplifying this to like voting is just an agreement not to rebel

00:57:06.780 is a massive reduction of what voting is.

00:57:09.580 It doesn't make it not true.

00:57:11.140 It, it, it, what it actually does is it, it bakes a half truth into something to build

00:57:15.380 What's the true part?

00:57:16.140 The true part is that to some degree you're conferring your authority as an individual

00:57:19.840 to the, to like the broader society.

00:57:22.140 Yeah, that's right.

00:57:22.620 But the issue is that it's not like every single time you're saying I'm not doing violence.

00:57:26.360 Uh, no, every time you vote, whether you know it or not, you're making an agreement that

00:57:31.160 you're not going to rebel and you're actually trusting that the government with its force

00:57:35.380 and its processes and its legislative branch and, and all of that is going to do its thing

00:57:39.940 in favor of your vote.

00:57:41.720 When it doesn't, you either vote again or you throw a fit.

00:57:45.280 And sometimes that starts a war, right?

00:57:47.420 That's happened.

00:57:47.960 That happens in history.

00:57:48.820 The reason I'm asking you to accept this premise is because if it's the case, even

00:57:54.500 from a reduced view, that men, when they vote forfeit their collective potential to overthrow

00:58:02.240 the government or even try, I'm asking you, what do women forfeit when they vote?

00:58:07.760 The same thing.

00:58:08.480 No, they don't.

00:58:09.340 Yes, they do.

00:58:09.860 Women can't overthrow a government.

00:58:11.520 Of course they can.

00:58:12.240 No, they can't.

00:58:12.860 Tell me one time a woman, a collection of women overthrew a collection of men ever.

00:58:16.980 That, that is not.

00:58:17.840 Ever.

00:58:18.160 Hold on, you're just, you're, you're making a false dichotomy.

00:58:20.440 You said it.

00:58:20.960 You're making a false dichotomy.

00:58:21.320 No, you said it.

00:58:21.980 If you're going to engage in fallacies, I'm done.

00:58:22.980 Okay, so you're going to say, make a claim and then I'm going to ask you to justify it

00:58:25.680 and you can't.

00:58:26.180 You're making a false dichotomy.

00:58:27.260 Tell me one time, collection of women overthrew a collection of men.

00:58:31.280 False dichotomy.

00:58:31.560 False dichotomy.

00:58:32.000 I can't engage with it.

00:58:32.580 What do you mean a false dichotomy?

00:58:33.400 You're making it sound like I am saying that women are overthrowing men and that it's the

00:58:37.660 zero-sum game between the sexes when in reality, when it comes to civil war, especially

00:58:41.720 with guns as the great equalizer, civil war means the participation typically of men and

00:58:46.080 women.

00:58:46.640 It's oftentimes women in support roles like doing aid, but they can also participate in

00:58:50.500 the front lines if they so close them.

00:58:51.280 Do you need them as support roles or can you have men as support roles?

00:58:53.780 It's usually going to be better to have women in support roles because you want-

00:58:56.080 Yes, you do.

00:58:57.460 No, you don't.

00:58:57.900 This is why women are always used as nurses because men are better at the front line and

00:59:01.000 so it's better to have the support roles filled by women.

00:59:03.000 Cool.

00:59:03.340 This is obviously true.

00:59:04.480 Cool.

00:59:04.960 Can a bunch of nurses overthrow the government?

00:59:08.380 No.

00:59:08.740 Yeah, if they all collectivized, sure, theoretically.

00:59:11.040 Of course they could.

00:59:11.740 Of course a bunch of nurses could theoretically-

00:59:12.960 A bunch of nurses can collectivize and take over a bunch of military expert men.

00:59:18.400 You heard it here.

00:59:19.240 That's how delusional feminism is.

00:59:20.740 Okay, again, false dichotomy.

00:59:21.720 This is not what I said.

00:59:22.500 Can a collection of women-

00:59:24.280 Can a collection of people overthrow the government?

00:59:26.880 No, no, women.

00:59:28.080 Yes.

00:59:28.760 Can a collection of pure women who are nurses overthrow a collection of men?

00:59:33.540 Again, are we doing a zero-sum game where you're saying-

00:59:35.660 Can you answer the question?

00:59:37.120 It's-

00:59:38.200 Can 100 women who are nurses overthrow 100 men who are not nurses?

00:59:43.760 This is like 100 men versus gorilla at this point.

00:59:46.100 No, in a bare fist fight to fist fight, women are weaker than men.

00:59:50.360 Great, great.

00:59:50.620 This is retarded, Jim Bob.

00:59:51.900 Great, so if they're weak-

00:59:52.460 Because this isn't how the world works.

00:59:53.700 Yes, it is.

00:59:54.120 When it comes to civil war-

00:59:55.220 No, it's exactly how it works.

00:59:56.420 Every major historical event is always a combination of effort from everyone.

01:00:00.860 It's not equal.

01:00:02.260 I'm sorry?

01:00:03.300 The reality is that everyone is participating when it comes to civil war.

01:00:06.740 Oh, really?

01:00:07.220 Yes, because if the man-

01:00:07.520 Is that why men are drafted?

01:00:08.880 Yes.

01:00:09.260 No, because if the man-

01:00:10.520 Are women drafted?

01:00:12.040 What the fuck are you talking about?

01:00:13.240 Nobody is drafted anymore.

01:00:14.920 The draft still exists.

01:00:16.500 Not really.

01:00:17.040 Yes, it does.

01:00:17.580 Not really.

01:00:18.200 The draft still exists.

01:00:19.560 No, it's not active.

01:00:20.320 No, there's no basic-

01:00:22.420 No, you can absolutely just elect out of the draft at any time.

01:00:24.940 No, you have to sign up.

01:00:26.560 You still have to sign up, first of all.

01:00:27.760 And women don't.

01:00:28.460 So, the fact of the matter is, there's never a time in human history that you can point

01:00:33.580 to where solely a collection of women took over a collection of men, whereas-

01:00:38.880 Of course not.

01:00:39.460 That's not what I'm advocating for.

01:00:41.080 Hold on.

01:00:41.360 Jim Bob, I'm not holding on when all you're doing is making a straw map.

01:00:44.520 Is there a time in history where a group of men collectively took over a group of men?

01:00:49.560 Yeah.

01:00:50.160 Cool.

01:00:50.500 What's the symmetry breaker between the two?

01:00:52.780 This is a non-point.

01:00:54.580 What is the symmetry breaker?

01:00:56.000 You're acting like gender is this zero-sum game, and it's just not.

01:00:59.280 This isn't how history has worked ever.

01:01:00.740 Yes, it is.

01:01:01.260 All of history is based on force.

01:01:02.780 All of it.

01:01:04.360 All of it.

01:01:05.180 Do you think that when the military men go off, that women just have no role in any

01:01:10.080 of their morale?

01:01:10.600 Things nobody said for 500, Alex.

01:01:12.980 Wow.

01:01:13.780 That's amazing.

01:01:14.520 Okay.

01:01:15.280 No.

01:01:15.980 I didn't say that.

01:01:16.880 I'm asking you, this is why I asked you, if men collectively, being that men can collectively

01:01:22.340 take over other men, because it's happened in the past and it'll happen in the future,

01:01:26.180 when we vote, we forfeit, we're basically agreeing.

01:01:29.520 We're not going to collectivize and take up our AR-15s and take the government, or try

01:01:33.780 to even, right?

01:01:34.860 Cause a ruckus.

01:01:36.040 If that's a trade-off that men have, I'm asking you, what are women forfeiting?

01:01:41.680 You say the same thing.

01:01:42.640 No, it's not the same thing because women can't collectively do the same thing.

01:01:46.640 So, what is your leverage?

01:01:49.060 The issue is, again, you're making this a zero-sum game, where you're acting like men

01:01:53.940 and women are these separate classes that are working independent.

01:01:56.920 They are.

01:01:57.240 Unless you're a feminist like me, they can't.

01:02:00.120 Men and women are separate classes, like in Demonstrator right now.

01:02:03.200 They're separate classes.

01:02:04.820 Would you agree that this city we're in is largely dependent on men doing all of the

01:02:11.400 service needs and all the brute strength work, sewage, plumbing, fixing roads, what makes

01:02:18.380 this society actually function, would you largely agree that it's mostly men?

01:02:23.560 No.

01:02:24.180 No?

01:02:24.680 Okay, cool.

01:02:25.400 If you want to say, well, hold on, Jim Bob.

01:02:28.120 When you said, do you think it's men that make society function?

01:02:31.300 And I would say, of course not.

01:02:32.720 Of course, this is why this gender zero-sum game is so toxic.

01:02:37.240 The reality, yes.

01:02:38.300 Is that another concept that has no basis in reality?

01:02:40.320 It's the same shit that feminists who are being gender opportunists are doing, which

01:02:43.360 is where they're trying to act like if men are doing, good one, if men are doing something

01:02:48.860 and women are doing something, it must be a zero-sum game and they're just taking from

01:02:52.960 each other.

01:02:53.640 When the reality of all of history, this is what you were saying, the reality of all of

01:02:58.040 history is it is a collection of people working together, fulfilling different roles to make

01:03:03.100 society work.

01:03:03.740 The other feminist, Oliver, that I debated, kept saying, no.

01:03:06.380 You have to let me finish my statement.

01:03:06.980 No, I won't.

01:03:07.500 I don't need to let you finish.

01:03:08.760 Oliver said the same thing.

01:03:09.920 When I distinguish the class between men and women, their ontology, their nature, and how

01:03:14.020 they are different, historically different, what they do in society is different, the

01:03:18.040 roles they play in society are different, the roles they play in war are different.

01:03:21.260 When I point this out, Oliver and Kyla, is that your name?

01:03:25.960 Kyla?

01:03:26.520 Do you want me to respond at this point?

01:03:27.820 I don't even know.

01:03:28.460 They make it ambiguous.

01:03:30.900 What do they say?

01:03:31.760 People.

01:03:33.040 Society.

01:03:34.100 No.

01:03:35.060 That's not actually how it works.

01:03:37.100 The leverage that men have right now, right?

01:03:39.980 They could just take over towns if they wanted to.

01:03:42.940 Women can't.

01:03:44.120 The leverage that men have right now.

01:03:46.040 It's not you.

01:03:46.820 If they didn't show up to fix-

01:03:49.100 It's not Brian.

01:03:49.980 I don't care.

01:03:50.700 I said men.

01:03:51.520 This is what I'm calling stolen valor, right?

01:03:55.240 This idea that young, able-bodied men with a penchant for violence can do a thing, like

01:04:00.600 violently overtake a city.

01:04:02.800 Yeah.

01:04:03.280 Can I join in?

01:04:04.400 You could, but you're not going to.

01:04:06.260 You don't know that?

01:04:07.400 All of the rights, all of the values that you care about-

01:04:08.960 What are you talking about?

01:04:09.340 You're not going to be necessarily joining the Civil War.

01:04:11.360 This is not an argument.

01:04:12.520 Do you think old, disabled men-

01:04:13.320 This is not a counter.

01:04:14.080 Are suddenly just not people in part of this either?

01:04:16.000 This is not a counter.

01:04:16.840 This is why-

01:04:17.480 Yes, it is.

01:04:18.060 No, it's not.

01:04:18.640 When you're treating men as a class-

01:04:19.860 How would you feel if you ate breakfast this morning?

01:04:22.060 All your-

01:04:22.640 What?

01:04:23.380 How would you feel if you didn't eat breakfast this morning?

01:04:26.480 Oh, God.

01:04:28.500 Uh, I'd be hungry.

01:04:29.800 Okay, cool.

01:04:30.420 So, you're capable.

01:04:31.540 So, the counter-argument that Brian or myself won't or probably won't-

01:04:38.180 That's just-

01:04:38.540 You're just making shit up.

01:04:39.320 You're not-

01:04:39.720 I'm not.

01:04:40.200 You're not a police officer.

01:04:41.360 You're not in the military.

01:04:42.320 Brian is not in the military.

01:04:43.480 What?

01:04:43.600 Brian's not a police officer.

01:04:44.360 I'm not talking about that.

01:04:45.160 Yes, you are, because you're talking about violent, penchant men willing to do it.

01:04:48.880 And that's not you.

01:04:49.440 Are you not listening?

01:04:50.100 That's not you.

01:04:51.140 And you don't get to steal their valor.

01:04:52.220 Are you not listening?

01:04:52.540 I moved it off of the violence, and I moved it into the working sector.

01:04:58.320 Okay?

01:04:59.060 Okay.

01:04:59.500 Hold on.

01:05:01.120 Underwater welding, tunnel building, road laying, erecting massive buildings with air conditioning

01:05:08.640 so Kyla can go, you know, go number two in a nice environment.

01:05:13.720 This kind of stuff.

01:05:15.020 The leverage for men is still actually right there present.

01:05:18.260 If they stopped working, do you think a collection of women could take up all of those hard labor

01:05:23.120 jobs and maintain society?

01:05:24.640 No.

01:05:25.020 I've never advocated for that.

01:05:26.100 So they have leverage.

01:05:27.220 Do you want, can I respond at any point or do you want to just keep going on?

01:05:29.220 So they have leverage that women don't have.

01:05:30.080 Well, women have tons of leverage because they're the ones having your children.

01:05:32.940 They're not.

01:05:33.480 They're killing off their children because of feminism.

01:05:35.200 They are having your children.

01:05:36.100 You obviously need women to have children.

01:05:38.240 Not feminists.

01:05:38.940 You obviously, Jim, do you really?

01:05:40.560 I need non-feminists.

01:05:42.020 Jim, you gotta engage with me here.

01:05:43.580 Do you need women to have children?

01:05:45.040 Yes.

01:05:45.500 Okay, great.

01:05:46.200 So women are the ones raising your children.

01:05:48.140 They're having your children.

01:05:49.100 They're taking care of all of like the nursing.

01:05:50.840 They're taking care of the elderly.

01:05:52.260 They're doing the dominant amount of volunteer work.

01:05:53.600 Yeah, the Christian traditional ones are.

01:05:55.080 Like feeding the poor for free.

01:05:57.200 They're doing the dominant work.

01:05:58.080 Are they feminists?

01:05:59.640 Some of them.

01:06:00.500 No.

01:06:01.060 The ones having most of the children are feminists.

01:06:02.900 Get out of here.

01:06:03.840 What?

01:06:04.160 That's what?

01:06:04.980 Is the debate about feminism?

01:06:07.100 Jim, Bob.

01:06:07.700 Is the debate about feminism?

01:06:09.280 You're now, now watch.

01:06:11.220 She conceded before that the best thing for the family is a traditional looking family,

01:06:15.300 right?

01:06:15.460 That's more reflective of a Christian view, Christian praxis.

01:06:18.520 Not a feminist one.

01:06:19.360 That's anti-feminist.

01:06:20.360 When I asked her, should feminism push against that traditional family value?

01:06:25.380 She moved over to another topic.

01:06:26.980 Now when I ask her about the roles in upkeeping society, right?

01:06:30.680 Whether or not they're equal between men and women, she concedes that they're not, right?

01:06:34.220 But then she points to duties, right?

01:06:36.360 I agree.

01:06:37.360 Duties?

01:06:37.860 Hold on.

01:06:38.180 These are not duties.

01:06:39.180 Yes.

01:06:39.480 Oh, so it's not?

01:06:40.300 Okay, cool.

01:06:40.900 Working the sewer is not a duty.

01:06:42.080 It's not a duty.

01:06:42.700 Okay.

01:06:42.820 No, it's not a duty, but it is a job that some people unfortunately elect into, right?

01:06:46.300 So how do you-

01:06:47.040 Having a, being a mom is not a duty.

01:06:48.940 It's a good thing to do, though.

01:06:50.080 How do you advocate for rights, whether it's men or women, and not advocate for the duty

01:06:55.080 to defend those rights?

01:06:56.960 You don't.

01:06:57.560 I've never disentangled these two things.

01:06:59.120 What?

01:07:01.220 What?

01:07:01.860 I want, listen, I want human rights.

01:07:04.800 I want women, women's rights.

01:07:06.120 But there's, we have a duty-

01:07:07.900 Jim, breathe.

01:07:08.420 You gotta let me respond.

01:07:09.340 Do we have a duty to give people rights?

01:07:11.220 You gotta let me respond, Jim.

01:07:12.040 Do we have a duty to give women rights?

01:07:15.040 You-

01:07:15.560 From your view.

01:07:16.120 You personally don't, no.

01:07:17.320 Does anyone have a duty to grant you rights?

01:07:21.360 What do you mean by that?

01:07:23.560 Rights are a set of behaviors that are permitted.

01:07:26.640 No.

01:07:27.240 Yes, they are.

01:07:27.900 Rights are not behaviors that are permitted.

01:07:29.440 Really?

01:07:29.980 No, they're prerequisite behavior that we think that everyone should have access to.

01:07:33.600 Rights are-

01:07:33.900 What?

01:07:34.020 They're permitted.

01:07:36.620 Can you use force to not permit a behavior?

01:07:39.640 Yes.

01:07:40.280 Give me one right that the government couldn't actually prohibit.

01:07:45.520 Faith.

01:07:46.760 Faith?

01:07:47.280 You have a right to believe in something in your head?

01:07:49.260 You have a right, yeah, you have a right, freedom of religion.

01:07:52.060 Okay, cool.

01:07:52.120 The government, no matter what, can't take your ability to believe in God.

01:07:54.600 To think, yeah, to think.

01:07:55.740 Great.

01:07:56.200 That's one thing that you call a right.

01:07:58.300 I would say that's more of a duty or an internal working.

01:08:00.740 What does duty mean to you then?

01:08:02.500 An obligation.

01:08:03.060 Well, this is the thing, you're unironically equivocating, because duty started as specific

01:08:08.940 things that you must do.

01:08:10.400 Because believe in God a woman's right?

01:08:13.340 It's religion.

01:08:14.400 It has nothing to do with it.

01:08:15.460 Look, look, you're coming to the table specifically with feminism, so you're pointing to rights

01:08:20.000 specific to females that maybe men have and women don't.

01:08:23.400 So when I'm asking you the question, should women, let's say voting, is that a right?

01:08:27.960 Jim Bob, Jim Bob, breathe.

01:08:28.560 Is voting a right?

01:08:30.320 Yes.

01:08:30.820 Okay.

01:08:31.120 Can men take away your vote?

01:08:34.240 Yes.

01:08:34.660 Okay, so they can take away your right.

01:08:35.860 But again, it's not men, it's the enforcement arm.

01:08:37.920 Can the enforcement arm...

01:08:40.060 Well, this is an important distinction.

01:08:41.280 Unbelievable.

01:08:41.560 No, this is a fundamental distinction, because every single time you say men...

01:08:45.140 Can the enforcement arm be made up of rabbits?

01:08:46.980 Well, every single time...

01:08:47.900 Can the enforcement arm be made up of rabbits?

01:08:49.940 Do you think...

01:08:50.580 So say, for example, you've got a society, and the entire enforcement arm is made up of

01:08:55.580 a slave caste.

01:08:56.460 Maybe it's a society where it's all black people.

01:08:59.360 Does that mean black people run the society?

01:09:02.320 Why can only black people be slaves?

01:09:04.460 This is a weird world in Narnia, where only black people...

01:09:07.320 That's weird.

01:09:08.520 It's not weird.

01:09:09.440 That's weird.

01:09:09.840 It's not weird, Jim Bob, to reference black people being slaves.

01:09:13.200 That's like one of the most standard historical things.

01:09:15.100 It doesn't mean it's good.

01:09:16.600 Nice try, though.

01:09:17.420 Well, if they serve as the enforcement arm, it might be good.

01:09:19.920 Okay, so if, say, we have a world, and white people have all of the control, they're

01:09:24.100 in the governance, but the entire enforcement arm is a slave caste of black people, would

01:09:28.860 you say, then, that black people run society in that society?

01:09:32.160 I would say black people have a chance, and they actually demonstrate...

01:09:35.200 Hold on, that's not what I asked you.

01:09:36.360 Do black people run the society?

01:09:37.900 Not currently, but they could actually fight it.

01:09:39.900 So in this world, do black people run society?

01:09:42.640 No, but they could fight and actually run it.

01:09:44.760 But couldn't the white people just fight and...

01:09:46.340 Yeah, that's white and black.

01:09:47.340 We're talking about men and women.

01:09:48.320 Duh.

01:09:49.120 Okay, so you realize...

01:09:51.120 Talking about men versus men?

01:09:52.400 You proved my point?

01:09:53.380 If you swap out the blacks and they're women slaves, guess what?

01:09:56.620 Can the women actually change the nature of the world?

01:09:59.640 No, but the group of black men could.

01:10:01.820 They couldn't?

01:10:02.380 Yeah, they...

01:10:03.100 Oh, you're going to fight a bunch of men?

01:10:04.560 No, they get to sexually select who they're going to be with.

01:10:06.800 They get to decide who has progeny.

01:10:07.940 That's not true.

01:10:08.780 Women don't get to select who they have sex with.

01:10:09.940 No, not in a slave situation.

01:10:12.060 What are you talking about?

01:10:12.880 We're not talking about the slave situation anymore.

01:10:14.660 You just brought up a slave situation.

01:10:15.840 Yeah, and then you moved on beyond that to go back to the...

01:10:18.580 No, I didn't.

01:10:18.620 Yes, because we were talking about blacks and whites, and then you moved on to men at a broader category.

01:10:22.900 But I kept the slave situation, replaced the black slaves with women, right?

01:10:29.040 In your example, you said, who's running the show?

01:10:33.520 Well, the one who has the most force.

01:10:36.020 That's who's running the show.

01:10:37.160 Hold on a second.

01:10:38.040 Black people.

01:10:38.560 Hold on a second.

01:10:39.660 In a scenario where there's an oppressor, a strong arm, and a group of men who are the weak arm,

01:10:45.880 the winner is the one with the most force, correct?

01:10:49.440 So the black people, right, in this scenario...

01:10:52.160 Or the best tactics.

01:10:53.060 ...can take over with force.

01:10:55.160 Well, actually, that's a really good point, right?

01:10:56.160 When you look at, for example, wars, it's not always just the one that has the best force that wins.

01:11:00.480 Israel and the Six-Day War is a really good example of a country that was positioned against all of the Arab nations.

01:11:07.120 They technically had less force, but they had superior mind, and so they won, right?

01:11:12.520 So this idea that it's just blunt force that wins out in these things is the most...

01:11:16.760 That is what you are saying.

01:11:18.280 Look, look.

01:11:18.560 You just said, Jim Bob, pause.

01:11:20.340 You just said, between these two arms, whichever one has more force wins.

01:11:24.700 Let me just fix this for you.

01:11:26.240 That's not entirely true.

01:11:26.620 Let me just fix this for you.

01:11:27.540 It's actually who's most tactical.

01:11:28.940 Can I fix this for you?

01:11:29.980 If there's two groups of...

01:11:33.360 Two military groups, and they're both equally smart,

01:11:38.140 if the one who's smart, just as smart as the other, has superior force,

01:11:42.220 who's going to likely win?

01:11:43.360 Yeah, sure.

01:11:43.700 In the case where tactics are identical...

01:11:45.380 So force is the actual decider.

01:11:47.340 No, because in...

01:11:48.080 You just agreed.

01:11:49.100 No, no.

01:11:49.420 You just agreed.

01:11:50.200 Give me an actual real-life example where force is perfectly equated.

01:11:53.660 What do you mean perfectly equated?

01:11:54.820 You're saying if tactics was perfectly equated, then force wins.

01:12:00.260 Give me a situation...

01:12:02.320 The power is never perfectly equated in boxing.

01:12:04.400 You just said, give me a potential example where it's equated,

01:12:08.400 and then the more powerful one wins over the tactics.

01:12:11.660 No, typically in boxing, it's oftentimes like most of the greatest boxers,

01:12:15.700 a lot of times are people who are incredibly talented and tactical.

01:12:18.780 The point...

01:12:19.000 Like Mike Tyson wasn't just good because he punched really hard.

01:12:21.840 He was also really good because he had good weave,

01:12:23.740 he had good footwork, and he also had powerful punch.

01:12:25.220 Could he win it without the power?

01:12:27.740 Yeah.

01:12:28.280 I think Floyd Mayweather is a good example of somebody

01:12:30.320 who doesn't have a super strong punch.

01:12:32.580 In boxing...

01:12:33.380 Hold on.

01:12:33.940 You didn't let me finish.

01:12:34.940 Floyd Mayweather is a great example of somebody

01:12:36.600 who doesn't have a high level of force.

01:12:38.060 They're not the strongest guy out there,

01:12:39.280 but they have incredible footwork, and they're insanely fast,

01:12:42.140 and so he still wins all of his fights.

01:12:44.300 One thing really quick here, guys.

01:12:45.760 We've got to take a brief break for little chats to come through.

01:12:49.840 If you want your chat to be read, we're doing Streamlabs,

01:12:53.260 streamlabs.com slash whatever.

01:12:54.900 We're going to do $99 and up for those.

01:12:57.320 We have Intel Wilde here.

01:12:59.320 Thank you, Intel.

01:13:00.100 Appreciate it.

01:13:00.800 Intel Wilde donating...

01:13:02.220 Oh, it's your friend.

01:13:03.820 W Jim Bob.

01:13:05.620 Duh-duh-duh-duh-duhls in the chat.

01:13:07.560 And not so bright, stop showing us your armpits.

01:13:10.980 Gross.

01:13:11.740 Okay, this guy...

01:13:12.520 Okay.

01:13:12.960 Do you know the armpit meme about me?

01:13:14.480 No.

01:13:15.160 So I have a neck injury, so when I was streaming,

01:13:17.240 I would often go like this,

01:13:18.260 because it relieves pressure in my neck.

01:13:19.680 I see.

01:13:20.100 Which means Intel Wilde probably watches me.

01:13:22.780 He's a fan.

01:13:23.200 Because it's a niche meme about me.

01:13:26.040 Wow.

01:13:26.800 There you go.

01:13:27.460 There you go.

01:13:27.960 We discovered it.

01:13:29.360 And you made like 300 bucks from him tonight, so...

01:13:31.100 Something like that.

01:13:32.020 He's a Kyla enjoyer.

01:13:34.120 Okay, we have Chef Dill Pickles.

01:13:37.460 Thank you, man.

01:13:37.900 Chef Dill Pickles donated $100.

01:13:41.140 Erudite, you said that women should have barriers removed

01:13:44.160 to allow them to choose what they want.

01:13:46.680 Tell me, do you think we should have listened

01:13:49.100 when the majority of women said they didn't want suffrage?

01:13:53.300 You want to respond to that one?

01:13:55.640 Yeah, probably then.

01:13:56.760 We shouldn't have been forcing women to have the vote.

01:13:58.760 They should have won it through persuasion.

01:14:00.460 I think the suffragettes were kind of shitty.

01:14:02.560 I just think that we inevitably would have resulted

01:14:05.180 in a situation where women have the vote.

01:14:06.600 All right.

01:14:07.300 And then we have Giovanni.

01:14:09.180 He's back also.

01:14:11.100 Giovanni, thank you, man.

01:14:12.080 Appreciate it.

01:14:12.980 Giovanni Jade, you donated $100.

01:14:16.160 Can Christianity knock over a cup?

01:14:18.560 No.

01:14:19.220 Then Christianity can't build a society.

01:14:22.040 Two gay sophists in a row.

01:14:24.260 This woman sucks and you dodged the substance

01:14:26.520 of the convo this hard.

01:14:28.740 Gay and cringe.

01:14:29.500 Wow.

01:14:29.900 Yeah.

01:14:30.300 Okay.

01:14:30.920 Giovanni is a hater.

01:14:32.040 He's an equal opportunist hater.

01:14:33.420 Yeah, that's actually false.

01:14:35.180 Christianity actually has applied duties.

01:14:37.660 The worldview of Christianity, dumbass,

01:14:40.660 is actually expressed in matter.

01:14:43.420 In fact, without the matter binding it

01:14:46.280 to the philosophy and the worldview and the praxis,

01:14:48.760 it doesn't exist.

01:14:49.960 But that's why I'm pointing, Giovanni, you retard,

01:14:52.820 is that feminism doesn't actually have a praxis

01:14:56.280 that's correct and Christianity does.

01:14:58.960 Correct, but that doesn't mean

01:15:00.220 that it doesn't have praxis.

01:15:01.400 It doesn't have anything.

01:15:02.760 Of course it does.

01:15:03.600 It's a woman having the vote.

01:15:05.620 You mean patriarchy.

01:15:07.900 Platonic floor.

01:15:08.740 Your praxis is patriarchy.

01:15:10.540 They're just shadows on a wall.

01:15:11.360 Yeah, yeah.

01:15:11.920 Your praxis is literally patriarchy.

01:15:14.380 Okay.

01:15:15.100 Feminist praxis is patriarchy.

01:15:17.480 The shadows on the wall.

01:15:19.000 I won't look at them.

01:15:19.820 They're not real.

01:15:20.560 Oh.

01:15:21.660 Okay.

01:15:22.100 It's a platonic joke.

01:15:23.240 Oh, got it.

01:15:23.780 Okay.

01:15:24.360 We've got Brian S. here.

01:15:25.780 Thanks for the big $200 soup chat.

01:15:28.160 Women were always able to vote in banking.

01:15:30.800 How else did widows maintain their inheritance?

01:15:34.040 As to voting, they were subject to the same limitations as men.

01:15:37.220 The metric wasn't your sex,

01:15:38.680 but whether one owns property or not,

01:15:41.060 men or women who didn't own property

01:15:42.920 weren't allowed to vote.

01:15:44.900 And who could buy property?

01:15:46.520 Not women.

01:15:49.460 Word.

01:15:50.400 Thank you, Brian S., for your big $200 soup chat.

01:15:52.900 You're a legend.

01:15:53.440 Guys, W's in the chat for Brian S.

01:15:54.840 That was a very generous soup chat from him.

01:15:58.380 Reminder, guys, if you want to get a message in,

01:16:00.220 we recommend doing so through Streamlabs.

01:16:03.300 Streamlabs.com slash whatever.

01:16:04.760 YouTube takes a 30% cut.

01:16:06.780 And then if you're using an Apple device

01:16:09.240 and using a YouTube app,

01:16:10.800 Apple takes 30.

01:16:11.840 YouTube takes 30.

01:16:12.740 So if you had sent that as a iOS,

01:16:18.000 less YouTube app, super chat,

01:16:21.780 YouTube would have taken 100,

01:16:23.360 or YouTube and Apple would have taken $102 total

01:16:26.620 of that $200,

01:16:27.880 leaving us with a paltry 98.

01:16:30.520 Also, you can support through Venmo and Cash App.

01:16:33.440 100% of your contribution will go towards us

01:16:35.700 without any of these platforms taking their cut.

01:16:37.440 Also, if you're enjoying the stream so far,

01:16:38.640 like the video, guys.

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01:16:40.740 twitch.tv slash whatever.

01:16:42.100 Drop us a follow and a prime sub.

01:16:44.500 Let's just get right back into it.

01:16:46.500 Let me see.

01:16:46.940 Oh, Chef, it's below the threshold,

01:16:49.240 but I'll read it super quick.

01:16:51.300 He writes, why not?

01:16:53.160 It's below the threshold, but why not?

01:16:54.640 He says continued.

01:16:55.540 A freebie.

01:16:56.860 You know what?

01:16:57.500 If we drop it to 69, I'll pull it back up then.

01:16:59.500 How about that?

01:17:00.280 We'll pull it back up then.

01:17:02.340 Okay, I think you guys were talking about...

01:17:04.020 Do I get to respond to that one?

01:17:05.840 If you want to, sure.

01:17:07.000 Why not?

01:17:07.240 I just got to say,

01:17:08.180 if your best insult on me

01:17:09.380 is using my own self-created meme

01:17:11.520 of not-so-erudite,

01:17:13.240 do better, okay?

01:17:15.080 There's better low-hanging fruit you could reach.

01:17:16.760 Wait, why did you choose that name?

01:17:18.220 Because it's funny.

01:17:19.420 Oh.

01:17:19.940 Yeah.

01:17:20.740 Also, for the...

01:17:22.020 I forgot if we announced this

01:17:24.100 at the beginning of the stream.

01:17:25.180 If we hit our super chat goal,

01:17:27.060 we need 50 yellow super chats.

01:17:28.600 We're at 16 of 50.

01:17:30.700 Kyla will wear a MAGA hat.

01:17:34.980 Really?

01:17:35.220 So that's cool.

01:17:37.500 If we have about an hour and a half left on that.

01:17:39.740 And maybe do an ahi gao with it

01:17:41.300 if Brian will give me 50 bucks of it.

01:17:43.920 You want Jim Bob to do that?

01:17:45.080 What is that?

01:17:45.380 No, no, no.

01:17:45.660 I'll do it.

01:17:46.240 Oh, you should...

01:17:46.820 It's a...

01:17:47.660 It's that face.

01:17:48.500 That girl right there.

01:17:49.540 Oh, that.

01:17:50.500 Yeah.

01:17:51.900 That thing.

01:17:53.520 But you have to give me 50 of it.

01:17:55.080 50 bucks.

01:17:55.700 Wait, what?

01:17:56.520 Sorry.

01:17:56.960 I'll do the ahi gao

01:17:57.700 if you give me 50 bucks from the pool.

01:18:00.660 Wait, for the goal?

01:18:02.120 Yeah.

01:18:02.400 To do the goal?

01:18:03.260 Yeah.

01:18:03.480 I don't know if the viewers want to see that.

01:18:06.000 Yes, they do.

01:18:06.680 Intel Wild for sure wants to see that.

01:18:08.520 Maybe Intel.

01:18:09.540 Intel might.

01:18:10.280 Anyways, back to the discussion at hand.

01:18:13.100 Do you guys want to just pick up where you left off?

01:18:14.840 You guys were talking about...

01:18:16.040 I was...

01:18:16.640 I wanted to...

01:18:17.300 Tactics and Floyd Mayer.

01:18:18.080 I wanted to go back to...

01:18:20.160 Wait, hold on.

01:18:21.260 Favorite boxer.

01:18:22.160 Actually, if you don't like boxing,

01:18:23.960 favorite MMA fighter.

01:18:25.020 Well, Mike Tyson's my favorite boxer.

01:18:28.160 MMA, I'm not...

01:18:29.320 I don't follow anymore.

01:18:30.120 I used to...

01:18:30.760 Do you guys want to arm wrestle right now?

01:18:33.080 I would lose.

01:18:34.120 Oh, okay.

01:18:34.520 Yeah, I'm not like the type of woman

01:18:35.840 who's like,

01:18:36.300 testosterone's not real.

01:18:38.340 I realize it's real.

01:18:39.580 All right.

01:18:39.920 Sorry, go ahead.

01:18:40.920 I wanted to point to this.

01:18:44.120 I think it's an issue with your worldview

01:18:46.220 is that I know that your worldview

01:18:48.000 isn't solely feminist, right?

01:18:50.160 But if you're arguing for a feminist view,

01:18:53.500 do you agree that you would need to borrow

01:18:55.660 from another view to apply feminism?

01:18:57.780 At least, like, from an ethical position.

01:19:00.620 I know Jay pressed you on your ethics

01:19:02.000 and your epistemology.

01:19:03.800 I'm not going to go into that.

01:19:05.400 But the reason I'm asking is,

01:19:07.200 if you held a view that says,

01:19:09.200 feminism is good and this is how I'm measuring it,

01:19:12.420 and you think women should have rights, let's say,

01:19:16.540 I'm not sure how you could make the argument

01:19:18.960 that we ought to give women rights

01:19:21.220 if you don't simultaneously argue

01:19:23.180 that men ought to give them to you.

01:19:25.600 Because, again, it's conflating men

01:19:28.900 with the enforcement arm.

01:19:30.440 Well, if men collectively,

01:19:32.780 whatever you want to call the enforcement arm, right?

01:19:34.760 The enforcement arm.

01:19:35.580 Yeah.

01:19:35.860 So it's just, what,

01:19:36.740 is an abstract collection of men mostly?

01:19:40.000 Dominantly men, but there are women in it too.

01:19:41.760 And the most important thing

01:19:43.140 is that the enforcement arm is given legitimacy

01:19:45.260 from the ruling class.

01:19:47.040 I understand.

01:19:47.760 Okay.

01:19:48.080 Which can be men and women.

01:19:48.920 So do you agree that there's an enforcement arm?

01:19:51.640 Let's say the enforcement arm in this scenario

01:19:53.680 is 96% men and 4% women.

01:19:57.840 I would just,

01:19:58.540 the issue is that the enforcement arm

01:20:00.360 doesn't get to do wanton violence

01:20:02.100 because it's a bunch of men that can do violence.

01:20:03.840 Well, they could.

01:20:04.980 No.

01:20:05.540 Yes, they could.

01:20:05.960 Then they would be a rebel group and they would be...

01:20:07.380 They could be a rebel group.

01:20:09.200 Yeah, but that's not what either of us are talking about.

01:20:10.720 That's called a rebellion.

01:20:11.760 Yeah, but nobody,

01:20:12.900 neither of us are talking about rebel groups right now.

01:20:14.740 We're talking about what the enforcement arm is.

01:20:15.680 We are actually because...

01:20:17.120 What legitimizes an enforcement arm.

01:20:18.780 We are because if that enforcement arm,

01:20:20.560 that's mostly men,

01:20:21.280 decided you don't get the vote,

01:20:23.400 what leverage do you have?

01:20:25.220 Please, pretty please?

01:20:26.900 That's it?

01:20:27.480 The enforcement arm doesn't ever get to decide that.

01:20:29.980 In our society, it doesn't.

01:20:31.360 Who gets to decide that is the government.

01:20:33.380 If they don't...

01:20:34.220 It's the government.

01:20:35.100 If the government decides X

01:20:36.680 and the enforcement arm says we're not enforcing that,

01:20:39.480 is there any decision on X?

01:20:40.860 So do you think that Trump is let...

01:20:42.400 Answer the question!

01:20:43.020 Hold on.

01:20:43.300 I'm answering your question with a question.

01:20:44.740 That's stupid!

01:20:45.260 It's not stupid.

01:20:46.340 Have you never engaged with Socratic method?

01:20:48.040 No.

01:20:48.440 That's not how it works.

01:20:49.460 It is.

01:20:50.080 The Socratic method is asking each other questions

01:20:52.060 in exchange.

01:20:52.700 Look, just answer the question.

01:20:53.940 Unless you want to just be like...

01:20:54.860 Why do I have to answer your question

01:20:56.420 if you don't answer mine?

01:20:57.120 I've answered all of your questions.

01:20:58.380 If someone passes a law,

01:21:00.360 the ruling class passes a law over here.

01:21:03.340 Like Trump.

01:21:03.880 If they pass a law

01:21:05.180 and the enforcement arm doesn't enforce it,

01:21:08.000 is there any power in this?

01:21:11.100 No.

01:21:11.780 No, but...

01:21:12.360 Cool!

01:21:12.700 So it's the enforcement arm.

01:21:13.760 It's not the enforcement arm

01:21:15.020 unless you're going to tell me

01:21:16.060 that police officers have more power

01:21:17.940 in this country than Trump,

01:21:19.380 which would be crazy.

01:21:20.180 No, it's not just police officers, okay?

01:21:22.000 Of course it's not just police officers, Jim.

01:21:23.800 Then why would you say police officers?

01:21:25.520 Okay, sorry.

01:21:26.220 I should have also added soldiers.

01:21:27.480 Military, Navy SEALs, everything else.

01:21:29.320 So I'm obviously meaning the entire enforcement arm,

01:21:31.400 which is the thing we've been talking about.

01:21:31.740 If they decide to not go to work,

01:21:34.280 does the policy or law have any power?

01:21:36.380 Wait, do you think the enforcement arm

01:21:37.520 is weaker than Trump?

01:21:39.320 What do you mean, Trump as an individual?

01:21:41.120 Yeah, our president.

01:21:41.880 Yeah, the enforcement arm could take over Trump

01:21:43.840 if they wanted to.

01:21:45.240 So the enforcement arm is actually

01:21:46.420 the one in control of our country, not Trump.

01:21:48.440 When it comes down to it,

01:21:49.740 if the enforcement arm decides

01:21:51.320 we're not doing this, right,

01:21:53.040 we're changing our minds,

01:21:54.160 we're dropping...

01:21:54.860 You know, like, for instance,

01:21:56.200 the same principle holds

01:21:57.400 when someone does, like, a boycott

01:22:00.220 or they don't come to work, right?

01:22:02.260 A protest?

01:22:03.380 That has power, right?

01:22:04.540 Leverage?

01:22:05.340 It's like a soft power, yeah.

01:22:06.740 Yeah, yeah.

01:22:07.360 But if the job they're doing

01:22:10.060 is actually enforcement,

01:22:11.420 for instance, if police stop showing up...

01:22:13.680 Police have the power to stop showing up.

01:22:15.400 Do you want to know why...

01:22:16.160 Hold on, dude.

01:22:16.840 Do police have the power and the will

01:22:19.120 to stop showing up to crime scenes?

01:22:22.620 Yeah, but then all of their livelihood

01:22:23.920 would be taken away.

01:22:24.920 I understand, but if they risk that

01:22:26.340 for something good, right,

01:22:27.980 if they thought, well, that's a risk,

01:22:30.540 but if it was an ethical view, right,

01:22:33.220 they could actually do that,

01:22:34.460 and that's leverage, right?

01:22:35.760 The issue is that in reality,

01:22:37.980 the reason why Trump is more powerful,

01:22:40.120 because I'm sure you actually agree with this,

01:22:41.760 than the enforcement arm

01:22:43.080 is because he has, for example,

01:22:44.380 the ability that if the enforcement arm

01:22:46.240 decided to rebel against him,

01:22:47.780 he could immediately cut off

01:22:49.140 all funding to any enforcement arm

01:22:51.100 and immediately strip them

01:22:52.420 of the ability to have arms.

01:22:54.020 He could lock up facilities

01:22:55.160 that they wouldn't otherwise have...

01:22:56.140 Wait, hold on, hold on.

01:22:57.460 Listen to what she's saying.

01:22:58.940 Lock up facilities

01:22:59.900 and take their arms, right?

01:23:01.420 With what?

01:23:02.040 Wait, dot, dot, dot.

01:23:03.360 Drum roll.

01:23:04.080 With what?

01:23:04.800 What do you think banking is?

01:23:05.820 Do you think banking is the enforcement arm?

01:23:07.400 Don't dodge this.

01:23:07.640 You want to focus on the one

01:23:08.800 that works for you,

01:23:09.720 but you don't want to engage

01:23:10.520 with the other one.

01:23:10.700 That's what debating is.

01:23:11.600 Do you think banking...

01:23:12.520 She's dodging right now.

01:23:13.420 ...is the enforcement arm?

01:23:13.700 It's not dodging.

01:23:14.360 Look, you just ran into shit.

01:23:15.740 Sure, I'll just ran you.

01:23:15.860 He would have to lock it up

01:23:16.920 with his private secretary instead.

01:23:19.220 No force.

01:23:20.780 Okay, so if you said

01:23:21.640 a bunch of people

01:23:23.260 rebelled against Trump,

01:23:24.520 the enforcement arm,

01:23:25.900 he can do X, Y, Z,

01:23:27.060 and everything you listed

01:23:27.920 would assume that

01:23:28.980 he also has this other set of people

01:23:31.000 that are a force.

01:23:32.040 Banking would not insist that.

01:23:33.380 What do you mean banking?

01:23:34.320 He could cut off

01:23:34.960 all of their money immediately.

01:23:36.640 Yeah, you can cut off...

01:23:37.580 And ground all their flames.

01:23:38.320 Yeah, you can physically

01:23:40.080 thwart the internet

01:23:43.460 and banking and electronics

01:23:45.040 and all that stuff.

01:23:45.720 So he could cut off

01:23:46.000 their entire ability to live.

01:23:47.500 Yeah, you can do that.

01:23:47.980 Yeah, but the thing is...

01:23:49.060 But that's not force, right?

01:23:49.880 Yeah, but look,

01:23:51.060 do you think my argument

01:23:52.740 is that you can't do

01:23:54.560 different kinds of warfare?

01:23:56.560 No.

01:23:57.060 What I'm saying is that

01:23:58.000 even if he did that,

01:23:59.320 what's going to ultimately

01:24:00.460 decide things over time

01:24:03.500 is going to be a body of people.

01:24:05.100 Over time especially

01:24:05.820 is going to be money.

01:24:07.300 I'm sorry, you're...

01:24:07.820 Money?

01:24:08.300 Yes.

01:24:08.440 Oh, really?

01:24:09.180 So where money is meaningless.

01:24:11.760 Have you ever been to...

01:24:13.380 Have you ever seen a situation

01:24:14.440 where money is literally

01:24:15.720 on the ground everywhere?

01:24:17.340 That's called inflation.

01:24:18.480 That's not related

01:24:19.220 to this situation.

01:24:20.300 So money...

01:24:21.620 You think money

01:24:22.880 is the determining factor?

01:24:24.920 I think money

01:24:25.520 is probably one

01:24:26.300 of the most important

01:24:27.360 systems of leveraging power

01:24:29.320 on the planet, yes.

01:24:30.240 I understand.

01:24:30.900 But if it comes down

01:24:31.820 to money

01:24:32.400 or pure military force,

01:24:35.340 let's say a country

01:24:36.080 is really rich

01:24:36.800 but they don't have a military.

01:24:38.800 And there's another country

01:24:39.600 that's...

01:24:40.440 I'm not presenting these things

01:24:42.300 as mutually exclusive.

01:24:43.160 Well, I'm pointing

01:24:44.120 to the deciding factor

01:24:45.480 that you keep trying

01:24:46.340 to avoid.

01:24:47.280 Every scenario you give...

01:24:48.580 I've already granted you...

01:24:49.520 Ultimately, the deciding factor

01:24:50.560 is muscle.

01:24:51.480 I'm not really understanding.

01:24:52.580 So like I've already granted you

01:24:53.780 that muscle is really important.

01:24:55.080 The enforcement arm

01:24:55.740 is very important.

01:24:56.740 The issue is that

01:24:57.300 I'm trying to say

01:24:57.800 it's a more complicated story

01:24:59.220 than you want people to believe

01:25:00.440 because it doesn't work

01:25:01.320 to your narrative

01:25:01.840 which is that, for example,

01:25:03.020 banking is obviously

01:25:04.320 one of the most powerful

01:25:05.540 things in the world.

01:25:06.180 Is it more powerful than force?

01:25:07.600 In an acute sense,

01:25:08.700 no, of course not.

01:25:09.420 But in long term...

01:25:10.160 Cool, that's how I'm arguing.

01:25:10.420 Well, in a long term,

01:25:11.360 for example,

01:25:12.160 which a war is long term,

01:25:13.600 you can't feed people,

01:25:15.340 you can't do any logistics,

01:25:16.660 you can't do any coordinating.

01:25:18.140 Do you need an enforcement arm

01:25:19.460 in the threat of force

01:25:20.200 to have a bank?

01:25:22.120 Yeah, but these things

01:25:23.120 are intrinsic.

01:25:23.560 Hold on.

01:25:24.120 Like, Jim Bob,

01:25:24.700 none of these

01:25:25.160 are winning to your thing.

01:25:26.020 Yes, they are.

01:25:26.600 You're trying to act

01:25:27.380 like force is like

01:25:28.160 the number one.

01:25:28.880 It's the most important thing.

01:25:30.000 It is the deciding factor.

01:25:31.600 No, it's not.

01:25:32.740 What's another deciding factor

01:25:34.000 if it's not force?

01:25:34.880 Tactics.

01:25:35.520 What?

01:25:36.020 Tactics of what?

01:25:37.200 Of warfare.

01:25:39.660 Warfare is force.

01:25:40.980 Yeah, but it's not just force.

01:25:42.840 Force is violence, right?

01:25:44.080 Force is like going pew, pew.

01:25:45.420 Look, look, look.

01:25:46.220 I already did this.

01:25:46.400 You can't say force

01:25:48.140 is now just all of these other things

01:25:50.240 so that you can like

01:25:51.160 make your argument work.

01:25:52.340 If two bodies of force

01:25:55.180 have equal tactical skills

01:25:56.980 and knowledge

01:25:57.620 and one has superior force,

01:26:01.260 who's going to win

01:26:02.140 between the ones

01:26:02.880 who are equal

01:26:03.640 in tactical knowledge?

01:26:04.580 I already answered that.

01:26:05.360 Can I add on to that?

01:26:06.020 What's the answer

01:26:06.700 for the whole audience?

01:26:07.640 I already said

01:26:08.160 the one with superior force.

01:26:09.160 Cool.

01:26:09.360 Here's the next question.

01:26:10.220 Say they're equal

01:26:11.380 in those ways.

01:26:12.340 One has higher force

01:26:13.500 but the other one

01:26:14.380 has four times

01:26:15.260 the amount of money.

01:26:16.300 Which one wins now?

01:26:17.400 The force.

01:26:18.280 Not necessarily.

01:26:19.180 What do you mean?

01:26:19.600 How does money beat a gun?

01:26:21.680 Because you can hire

01:26:22.520 other additional militia.

01:26:23.260 Isn't it weird,

01:26:24.220 ladies and gentlemen,

01:26:25.120 when I get robbed on the street

01:26:26.380 I can't throw my money

01:26:27.720 at the person

01:26:28.760 to defend from a gun?

01:26:29.380 I'm not saying

01:26:29.840 that money is force.

01:26:30.740 From a gun?

01:26:31.120 I'm not saying

01:26:31.540 that money is force.

01:26:32.260 I'm saying that

01:26:32.700 when you're pretending

01:26:33.540 like this idea

01:26:34.760 of force

01:26:35.360 and the enforcement arm

01:26:36.100 is so simple

01:26:36.600 it's just like

01:26:37.240 muscle makes right.

01:26:38.720 I didn't say right.

01:26:39.940 I said it makes.

01:26:40.680 You are saying.

01:26:41.280 No.

01:26:41.760 Yes.

01:26:42.280 You're doing master morality.

01:26:43.460 Don't lie.

01:26:43.980 You're doing master morality.

01:26:45.320 Yes you are.

01:26:45.760 No I'm not.

01:26:46.340 Stop lying.

01:26:46.980 What is master morality?

01:26:48.020 I don't know

01:26:48.480 but it's not might is right.

01:26:49.580 So you're saying

01:26:50.060 that you're not doing

01:26:50.680 a thing that you have

01:26:51.320 no idea what it is.

01:26:52.240 I never heard the term

01:26:53.680 but if you're saying

01:26:54.260 might is right

01:26:55.000 that's not a gotcha.

01:26:56.000 I'm saying might is

01:26:57.600 this is why

01:26:58.920 it's an important question.

01:27:00.420 If you agree with me

01:27:01.740 that might is

01:27:02.740 it's not right

01:27:03.680 it just is.

01:27:04.460 It could be the case

01:27:05.400 it's right

01:27:05.740 it could be wrong right?

01:27:07.040 If it's a case

01:27:08.140 that we both agree

01:27:08.960 that might just is

01:27:10.320 that's descriptively true.

01:27:10.800 Is it doesn't exist?

01:27:11.940 No.

01:27:12.540 No.

01:27:13.060 It's descriptively

01:27:13.780 the case

01:27:14.300 that force wins.

01:27:16.060 That doesn't say

01:27:17.020 it's right.

01:27:17.720 It wins.

01:27:19.380 Yes?

01:27:20.380 Yeah.

01:27:20.900 In like a one to one.

01:27:21.560 Okay.

01:27:21.920 Again.

01:27:22.400 Stop.

01:27:22.940 No.

01:27:23.280 The world is not

01:27:24.140 Jim Bob.

01:27:24.680 I know it.

01:27:25.440 I know it'll be

01:27:26.020 well hold on.

01:27:26.760 Every time I get

01:27:27.300 one premise out

01:27:28.060 you basically

01:27:29.460 take us to Wally world.

01:27:30.920 Like look

01:27:31.600 just follow

01:27:32.260 follow follow.

01:27:33.660 I have been following

01:27:34.380 the issue Jim Bob.

01:27:35.240 No no no.

01:27:35.720 It's not this simple.

01:27:36.880 That means stop.

01:27:37.200 That means be quiet

01:27:37.820 for a second.

01:27:38.180 I don't have to

01:27:38.520 I don't have to

01:27:39.660 If we agree

01:27:40.680 that force wins

01:27:42.360 no one said it's right

01:27:43.700 if we agree that force wins

01:27:45.200 isn't the next

01:27:46.580 logical question

01:27:47.820 is what philosophy

01:27:49.620 or worldview

01:27:50.260 informs

01:27:51.020 the use of force?

01:27:54.500 If pure force wins

01:27:56.400 is descriptively true

01:27:58.060 concentrate

01:27:59.200 It's not.

01:28:00.220 That's what I'm telling you.

01:28:01.400 Oh it's not now.

01:28:02.260 No because

01:28:02.680 you're now moving

01:28:03.640 to a philosophical system

01:28:05.160 of how you set up

01:28:05.980 for example

01:28:06.480 maybe nation states.

01:28:07.740 We can maybe use force

01:28:08.680 in the state of nation states.

01:28:09.800 The moment that you go to that

01:28:11.000 this idea that just force wins

01:28:12.740 is devoid of

01:28:14.340 any of the complications

01:28:15.560 of reality.

01:28:16.980 Right?

01:28:17.200 The reality is that

01:28:17.940 if you have a super strong force

01:28:19.500 but you don't have logistics

01:28:20.740 you don't have means

01:28:21.500 to feed them

01:28:22.080 you don't have caretakers

01:28:23.160 for them to take care

01:28:23.880 of the wounded

01:28:24.260 you don't have a GDP

01:28:25.240 to be able to fund them

01:28:26.200 and make them strong

01:28:26.940 and have like more

01:28:28.660 ammunition

01:28:29.000 Nobody's disagreeing with that.

01:28:30.400 You are fundamentally

01:28:31.960 eroding these things

01:28:33.540 so that you can just say

01:28:34.880 force really matters.

01:28:35.980 Well no.

01:28:36.400 I've never said that

01:28:37.080 force doesn't matter.

01:28:38.260 I'm saying you're painting

01:28:39.280 a really simplistic picture

01:28:40.440 when this is complicated.

01:28:42.080 I never said those

01:28:42.880 you want to make it complicated

01:28:44.080 so you don't have to deal

01:28:44.960 with the entailments.

01:28:45.900 No.

01:28:46.160 I want to make it complicated

01:28:47.040 because I would love

01:28:47.680 for a discussion

01:28:48.300 to slightly map onto reality.

01:28:50.100 Okay cool.

01:28:50.280 Like just slightly.

01:28:50.880 Alright cool.

01:28:51.340 So if you have two groups

01:28:53.120 of two different armies

01:28:55.380 right fighting out there

01:28:56.460 in the field

01:28:57.000 do you think it's

01:28:58.440 better for one

01:28:59.780 or the other

01:29:00.620 to be able to deal

01:29:02.560 with the harshness

01:29:03.600 of the elements

01:29:04.520 in long periods of time?

01:29:07.340 Is it better to be able to

01:29:09.000 To be in like the heat

01:29:09.800 for a long period of time?

01:29:10.800 Sure yeah.

01:29:11.140 To be carrying a lot of weight

01:29:12.120 for a long period of time?

01:29:12.940 Yeah of course.

01:29:13.500 This is why men are better

01:29:14.200 at the front line.

01:29:14.720 Gotcha.

01:29:15.140 Okay so if that's the case

01:29:16.560 it still comes down

01:29:18.000 to brute force collectively

01:29:19.300 even in the instance

01:29:20.680 where you have to serve

01:29:21.800 Yes it does.

01:29:22.780 No.

01:29:23.120 You have to carry food right?

01:29:24.160 So for example

01:29:24.960 if brute force was sufficient

01:29:26.400 Germany would have

01:29:27.400 a much better time

01:29:28.180 taking over Russia

01:29:28.960 because they were

01:29:29.540 fucking dumpstering.

01:29:31.260 They had way more force

01:29:32.400 on their hand.

01:29:33.020 The problem is that

01:29:33.520 they had a failed

01:29:34.180 logistics system

01:29:35.100 and that they couldn't

01:29:36.060 they had no way

01:29:36.820 of managing the winter

01:29:37.840 particularly because

01:29:39.060 their tanks got stuck

01:29:40.880 in the mud.

01:29:41.180 Which is why logistics

01:29:42.480 and things like nurses

01:29:43.900 all of these things matter.

01:29:45.600 So when you try

01:29:46.280 to reduce the world

01:29:47.360 to force

01:29:48.340 all you're doing

01:29:49.460 is just pretending

01:29:50.280 that the world is simple.

01:29:50.740 No even in that instance

01:29:51.800 did they lose to concepts

01:29:53.460 or did they also lose

01:29:55.060 did they lose to

01:29:55.960 another body of force?

01:29:57.420 What?

01:29:57.920 Did they lose

01:29:59.180 to another body of force?

01:30:00.840 They mostly lost

01:30:01.800 to technology failures

01:30:03.280 and winter.

01:30:04.140 Is that

01:30:04.460 does that

01:30:05.160 technological failures

01:30:06.660 does that require

01:30:07.940 men?

01:30:09.660 No men?

01:30:10.660 No.

01:30:11.280 Okay to avoid

01:30:11.980 Developing a tank

01:30:12.700 does not require men.

01:30:13.740 Oh really?

01:30:14.380 It requires science.

01:30:15.580 Listen guys

01:30:16.260 developing a tank

01:30:18.120 doesn't require men.

01:30:20.460 It requires science.

01:30:21.860 Science is a method

01:30:23.000 what's the scientific method?

01:30:24.500 The scientific method

01:30:25.280 is the process

01:30:25.840 by which you use

01:30:26.380 No what's the method?

01:30:27.780 What?

01:30:28.260 Steps.

01:30:29.040 Yeah I'm going to walk

01:30:29.720 you through it.

01:30:29.780 What's the first step?

01:30:30.960 Do okay

01:30:31.580 I can walk you through it.

01:30:33.200 What's the step?

01:30:34.000 The first step

01:30:34.700 is going to be hypothesis generation.

01:30:36.040 No that's an observation.

01:30:37.080 Wrong.

01:30:38.100 Yes it is.

01:30:38.720 How do you do a hypothesis

01:30:39.740 on something you don't observe

01:30:40.880 dummy?

01:30:42.360 Okay you're talking

01:30:43.180 about basic science.

01:30:44.680 Yeah you can't even tell me

01:30:45.540 what the scientific method is.

01:30:46.720 Science built tanks?

01:30:48.480 No.

01:30:49.280 Engineering built tanks

01:30:50.400 and men had to

01:30:51.320 Do you think engineering

01:30:51.940 is not science?

01:30:52.300 Do you know what a tank's made of?

01:30:54.780 Various things

01:30:55.520 there's like steel bodies

01:30:56.580 Are they heavy?

01:30:59.160 Again

01:30:59.560 Have you ever seen

01:31:00.800 Jim Bob

01:31:01.980 do you think you can

01:31:02.720 hammer in one of the

01:31:03.660 bolts of the

01:31:04.700 Let's just go back

01:31:05.600 Let's just

01:31:06.100 This is hilarious

01:31:06.960 Let's just breathe

01:31:07.520 and go back

01:31:08.080 You guys

01:31:08.640 Engineers

01:31:09.220 Men don't build tanks

01:31:10.520 Science does

01:31:11.680 What are you

01:31:12.780 Neil deGrasse Tyson?

01:31:13.980 What's wrong with you?

01:31:14.780 Do you think that we would

01:31:15.700 have tanks

01:31:16.480 Without men?

01:31:17.300 Without science?

01:31:18.240 Nobody said that

01:31:19.100 Men build tanks

01:31:20.380 You heard it guys

01:31:22.080 Science builds tanks

01:31:24.120 Because you were saying

01:31:25.140 Concepts don't

01:31:26.100 Men build tanks

01:31:27.640 Women don't build tanks

01:31:29.660 Women just can build tanks

01:31:31.480 Oh can they?

01:31:32.400 Yes

01:31:32.720 Really?

01:31:33.240 Yes we have the science

01:31:34.300 and technology for it

01:31:35.280 Oh you have the brute force

01:31:36.260 to carry all of those

01:31:37.340 heavy pieces of equipment?

01:31:38.480 Typically you're going to

01:31:39.060 have like a carrying equipment

01:31:40.440 Yeah you can use like

01:31:41.400 forklifts and all the

01:31:42.360 other shit that they use

01:31:43.220 Do you think that men

01:31:44.180 by themselves are just

01:31:45.260 like brute carrying

01:31:46.380 Still yes they are

01:31:47.620 No

01:31:48.080 Yes they are

01:31:48.740 They're using factories

01:31:49.520 and robotics

01:31:50.360 What are you talking about?

01:31:51.260 They're not pure

01:31:51.900 By the way who manages

01:31:53.160 and builds robotics?

01:31:55.000 Men and women

01:31:55.940 Robots?

01:31:56.400 No mostly men

01:31:57.460 Engineering

01:31:58.480 Metal smithing

01:31:59.420 Machining

01:31:59.920 All of these things

01:32:00.840 Large scale building

01:32:01.620 Yes it's disproportionately

01:32:02.640 like occupied by men

01:32:03.860 Why is that?

01:32:04.640 This is more of the

01:32:05.380 feminist argument

01:32:06.100 at this point

01:32:06.820 It's not

01:32:07.220 It is because like

01:32:08.260 by and large

01:32:09.060 women were barred

01:32:10.400 from education

01:32:10.940 and that like

01:32:11.500 these disciplines

01:32:12.160 didn't reinforce

01:32:12.840 Look look

01:32:13.320 your own army

01:32:14.280 let's say you have

01:32:15.080 your own army right

01:32:15.960 I just can't believe

01:32:16.720 you said that

01:32:17.200 science doesn't

01:32:18.020 build tanks

01:32:18.640 That's the most

01:32:19.340 wild statement

01:32:20.340 I've heard today

01:32:21.000 Engineering is science

01:32:22.680 my friend

01:32:23.100 No science is

01:32:23.660 Yes it is

01:32:24.240 Science is natural dude

01:32:25.500 No it's

01:32:26.420 Yes it is

01:32:26.820 It's study of the

01:32:27.340 natural world

01:32:27.900 Tanks aren't natural

01:32:29.000 dummy

01:32:29.480 Do you

01:32:30.260 I'm sorry

01:32:30.780 Do you think that

01:32:31.460 science didn't

01:32:32.240 contribute to the

01:32:32.980 development of tanks?

01:32:34.180 No I didn't say that

01:32:35.200 I said science itself

01:32:36.820 They're not for the

01:32:36.980 natural world

01:32:37.540 Dummy

01:32:38.420 Can you engineer

01:32:39.920 without science?

01:32:41.180 No

01:32:41.480 Yes you can

01:32:42.240 No

01:32:42.920 Yes you can

01:32:43.700 Not very well

01:32:44.640 I didn't say well

01:32:45.520 If you can engineer

01:32:46.820 without science

01:32:47.540 then it demonstrates

01:32:48.740 that you can do

01:32:49.520 engineering without

01:32:50.260 science

01:32:50.660 The argument isn't

01:32:52.000 The argument isn't

01:32:53.160 whether or not

01:32:53.760 science contributes

01:32:55.000 The question isn't

01:32:57.100 I never said science

01:32:58.300 doesn't contribute

01:32:59.320 to engineering

01:33:00.940 I'm saying science

01:33:02.460 itself as a methodology

01:33:03.620 which you don't even

01:33:04.260 fucking know the method

01:33:05.240 I do

01:33:05.840 You haven't even

01:33:06.780 let me speak

01:33:07.500 You didn't even

01:33:08.000 start with an observation

01:33:08.740 Because a lot of science

01:33:10.260 doesn't start with

01:33:10.840 observation

01:33:11.240 For example

01:33:11.740 basic science

01:33:12.800 just hypothesizes

01:33:14.020 free willy

01:33:14.680 and then it tests it

01:33:15.460 Like what?

01:33:16.880 Basic science

01:33:17.640 for example

01:33:18.060 would be

01:33:18.400 one person

01:33:19.000 was like

01:33:19.320 just pretty sure

01:33:20.160 that our gut biome

01:33:21.080 the ulcers

01:33:22.320 Oh they did that

01:33:23.140 without knowing

01:33:24.180 and observing

01:33:24.680 what a gut biome is?

01:33:25.820 They just imagine

01:33:26.480 a gut biome

01:33:27.100 without observing

01:33:27.720 and knowing

01:33:28.080 what it is?

01:33:28.620 No the main

01:33:29.380 actually thing

01:33:29.960 is that

01:33:30.300 they hadn't

01:33:31.020 been able

01:33:31.360 to observe

01:33:31.860 the bacteria

01:33:32.380 in there

01:33:32.840 but they proposed

01:33:34.060 anyways

01:33:34.460 that it was a bacteria

01:33:35.100 in fact it was

01:33:35.600 viewed as a very

01:33:36.320 very controversial

01:33:36.780 So they knew

01:33:37.160 what bacteria was?

01:33:39.720 Bro

01:33:39.980 Did they know

01:33:40.560 what bacteria was?

01:33:41.820 Yes

01:33:42.160 Cool

01:33:42.560 So they observed

01:33:43.060 bacteria before

01:33:44.100 so they started

01:33:45.360 with an observation

01:33:46.000 to know what bacteria is

01:33:47.300 they know what a gut is

01:33:48.480 that's an observation

01:33:49.300 You can't

01:33:50.260 posit a hypothesis

01:33:51.340 without

01:33:52.060 you can't do it

01:33:53.280 without an observation

01:33:53.880 Jim Bob

01:33:54.380 I'm sorry

01:33:54.780 What's wrong with you?

01:33:55.300 You're out of the depth

01:33:55.840 Do you know

01:33:56.240 No I'm not

01:33:56.780 You don't even know

01:33:57.380 the scientific method

01:33:57.800 Do you know

01:33:58.040 what the difference is

01:33:58.700 between basic

01:33:59.400 and applied science?

01:34:00.540 Yes

01:34:00.840 What's the difference?

01:34:01.980 Well applied science

01:34:03.340 is basically

01:34:04.180 that's what engineering is

01:34:05.200 it's taking the conclusions

01:34:06.540 the regularity

01:34:07.780 the inductive reasoning

01:34:08.860 from the scientific method

01:34:10.060 and applying it

01:34:11.040 into making shit

01:34:11.900 What's basic science?

01:34:13.960 Basic science

01:34:14.560 is natural science

01:34:15.340 What is that?

01:34:16.720 You observe

01:34:17.340 natural phenomenon

01:34:18.120 in the world

01:34:18.560 you have a hypothesis

01:34:19.960 of what's causing

01:34:20.860 the natural phenomenon

01:34:21.760 you introduce

01:34:22.660 an independent variable

01:34:23.780 you remove it

01:34:24.560 you repeat

01:34:25.200 repeat repeat

01:34:25.900 and then you come up

01:34:26.700 with a conclusion

01:34:28.040 which is what produces

01:34:29.280 a scientific theory

01:34:30.100 Okay so you don't

01:34:31.060 understand this

01:34:31.540 So basic

01:34:31.960 What?

01:34:32.480 Tell me one thing

01:34:33.360 I said was wrong

01:34:34.100 dummy

01:34:34.320 Sure I will

01:34:34.860 just breathe

01:34:35.700 Don't do this

01:34:36.320 fucking passive aggressive

01:34:37.220 shit where you

01:34:37.680 don't understand this

01:34:38.840 dummy

01:34:39.140 Tell me what I got wrong

01:34:40.280 You're interrupting me

01:34:40.540 all the time

01:34:40.920 Tell me what I got wrong

01:34:41.840 I will

01:34:42.820 Stop gaslighting me

01:34:43.920 You have to stop

01:34:44.500 You're a professional

01:34:45.260 gaslighter

01:34:46.080 Brian

01:34:46.440 Daddy help me

01:34:48.200 Patriarchy help me

01:34:49.760 I win

01:34:50.380 Look

01:34:51.460 What did I get wrong?

01:34:53.080 I will answer

01:34:53.660 if you breathe

01:34:54.300 If we can

01:34:55.620 let's try to avoid

01:34:56.600 the ad-homs

01:34:58.100 and the

01:34:58.640 Brian insults

01:34:59.820 Okay

01:35:00.040 Go ahead

01:35:00.400 So basic science

01:35:01.940 is typically where

01:35:03.060 a hypothesis

01:35:03.700 can be generated

01:35:04.500 without observation

01:35:06.140 It's something that

01:35:07.080 essentially a scientist

01:35:07.780 theorizes

01:35:08.380 and then

01:35:09.280 they create a hypothesis

01:35:10.280 to test it

01:35:11.060 and then they test it

01:35:11.800 How do you

01:35:12.060 Applied science

01:35:12.800 is using observations

01:35:13.960 from nature

01:35:14.640 or from the world

01:35:15.660 around you

01:35:16.180 and building off

01:35:17.040 of these observations

01:35:17.840 to create a

01:35:18.700 more like targeted

01:35:20.000 hypothesis of what

01:35:20.840 we expect it to become

01:35:21.900 and then testing that out

01:35:23.240 Most science that

01:35:24.240 you're familiar with

01:35:25.060 is part of this

01:35:25.820 applied science branch

01:35:27.180 because basic science

01:35:28.300 is like more like

01:35:29.780 what 1800s philosophers

01:35:31.560 got to do

01:35:32.240 where they just like

01:35:32.800 whimsically

01:35:33.300 were like

01:35:34.100 I wonder if

01:35:34.880 I lick metal

01:35:35.540 if it'll cure cancer

01:35:36.560 and then they tried it

01:35:37.700 right

01:35:37.860 that's what basic science

01:35:38.980 was where you just

01:35:39.540 like try like

01:35:40.080 hocus pocus shit

01:35:41.240 to see if it works

01:35:42.060 whereas applied science

01:35:43.000 is going like

01:35:43.440 well whenever I drop

01:35:44.380 this ball

01:35:44.940 I notice that it hits this

01:35:45.900 and so I'm going to

01:35:46.360 test and see if I drop

01:35:47.240 different things

01:35:47.680 of different weight

01:35:48.220 if it changes

01:35:48.640 the philosophy of dropping

01:35:49.540 And which one of those

01:35:50.360 built a tank?

01:35:52.300 I have no idea

01:35:53.440 the history of science

01:35:54.800 but I'm assuming

01:35:55.640 which part

01:35:57.960 gunpowder

01:35:59.440 I suspect

01:36:00.900 probably wasn't

01:36:02.380 science at all

01:36:02.920 the Chinese did it

01:36:03.840 I have a feeling

01:36:04.640 that they kind of

01:36:05.280 noticed these things

01:36:06.040 like igniting one another

01:36:07.060 maybe it was

01:36:07.960 applied science

01:36:08.820 but for example

01:36:09.720 a lot of medical

01:36:10.560 advancements

01:36:11.180 come from basic science

01:36:12.140 Yeah

01:36:12.360 Do you think you could

01:36:13.240 load a cannonball

01:36:14.260 into a

01:36:16.460 Me personally?

01:36:17.460 Yeah

01:36:17.620 I don't know

01:36:18.240 how to work tanks

01:36:19.180 No I mean

01:36:20.040 just a cannonball

01:36:20.920 into a cannon

01:36:21.600 Oh yeah probably

01:36:23.360 You could load one in?

01:36:24.360 Yeah I think they're

01:36:24.720 about like five pounds

01:36:25.560 Can you pull back

01:36:26.500 the rail of a clock?

01:36:27.800 Uh like the inside

01:36:30.320 gear mechanism?

01:36:31.760 It's a cock a gun

01:36:32.560 Can you do that?

01:36:33.240 Yeah

01:36:33.380 Okay

01:36:33.860 Can you break down a gun?

01:36:36.500 Uh no

01:36:36.840 Clean it?

01:36:37.380 Uh no

01:36:37.580 Okay

01:36:37.980 That's not a dunk

01:36:39.900 I've never

01:36:40.540 Well no it kind of

01:36:41.700 is a dunk

01:36:42.100 because a part of

01:36:43.900 managing weaponry

01:36:45.200 even not just a tank

01:36:46.560 but even small

01:36:47.420 weapons

01:36:48.000 you have to be able

01:36:49.060 to clean it

01:36:49.780 effectively

01:36:50.900 and you have to

01:36:51.480 be able to

01:36:52.100 you have to be able

01:36:53.000 to use brute strength

01:36:54.220 and be able to

01:36:55.040 hold it firm

01:36:55.760 and so

01:36:56.740 I've never denied

01:36:57.860 that having some

01:36:59.060 like I've never denied

01:37:00.180 that frontline soldiers

01:37:01.200 are better served

01:37:01.900 typically by men

01:37:02.760 or by women

01:37:03.360 who can achieve

01:37:03.920 the same like

01:37:04.500 physical standards

01:37:05.380 that are erected

01:37:05.920 for men

01:37:06.300 Okay

01:37:06.660 What I've actually done

01:37:08.080 is said that

01:37:08.660 science is the concept

01:37:10.080 by which tanks emerged

01:37:11.640 and then labor was used

01:37:12.920 to build these things

01:37:14.040 but to act like it's men

01:37:15.440 is again

01:37:16.260 it's just this reductive narrative

01:37:17.800 of diminishing like

01:37:19.220 how again

01:37:20.300 you just get to steal valor

01:37:21.400 because like men

01:37:22.060 were in these roles

01:37:22.700 but there's a really

01:37:23.360 complicated question

01:37:24.180 of like why were men

01:37:25.140 in these roles

01:37:25.620 and maybe not women

01:37:26.460 and also there's a

01:37:27.480 why is every answer

01:37:28.700 to your philosophy

01:37:29.720 it's complicated

01:37:30.580 because the world

01:37:31.260 is incredibly

01:37:31.980 fucking complicated

01:37:33.140 so do you understand it

01:37:34.420 or it's complicated

01:37:35.560 but you understand

01:37:36.400 I understand elements

01:37:37.420 of it but it seems

01:37:38.080 like I understand

01:37:38.580 maybe more than you

01:37:39.660 well no it sounds

01:37:40.680 like what you're saying

01:37:41.580 is every time

01:37:42.800 I have you cornered

01:37:44.680 you say it's very

01:37:45.440 complicated

01:37:46.140 which is a very

01:37:46.800 common tactic

01:37:47.780 with nonsense machines

01:37:48.960 I don't just say

01:37:49.500 it's complicated

01:37:50.020 I say it's complicated

01:37:50.820 and then I go on

01:37:51.740 to list out the like

01:37:53.000 sequelae and

01:37:53.680 multifactorial elements

01:37:54.920 that make it complicated

01:37:56.100 nobody in this

01:37:57.300 nobody in their

01:37:58.080 right mind

01:37:58.620 would look at the world

01:37:59.880 look at like taxes

01:38:01.400 or debt

01:38:02.340 or banking

01:38:03.360 or central banking

01:38:04.300 nobody should look

01:38:05.320 at these things

01:38:05.760 and be like

01:38:06.020 yeah it's really

01:38:07.160 fucking simple

01:38:07.880 no it's not

01:38:08.940 well in this

01:38:10.000 central banking

01:38:10.840 very complicated

01:38:11.580 well but in this

01:38:12.300 tanks

01:38:12.760 very sophisticated

01:38:14.060 in this debate

01:38:15.060 the simplicity

01:38:16.380 the thing that's

01:38:17.060 being reduced

01:38:17.700 is not complicated

01:38:18.920 it seems to be

01:38:19.680 only complicating

01:38:20.620 for you honestly

01:38:21.880 is that the

01:38:23.120 descriptive element

01:38:24.200 of this debate

01:38:25.000 that's true

01:38:25.720 that holds true

01:38:26.360 that you even

01:38:26.760 agree with

01:38:27.240 is that it's

01:38:27.980 primarily men

01:38:29.040 who are applying

01:38:29.900 force to maintain

01:38:31.140 a society

01:38:31.680 whether it's law

01:38:32.540 or the world

01:38:33.300 itself

01:38:33.700 or erecting

01:38:34.320 buildings

01:38:34.720 and maintaining

01:38:35.220 all this shit

01:38:35.740 yeah I mean

01:38:36.120 I've just agreed

01:38:36.680 with that

01:38:36.960 the issue

01:38:37.360 is that like

01:38:37.840 we then got

01:38:38.780 into which

01:38:39.320 you didn't

01:38:39.800 really allow

01:38:40.200 me to

01:38:40.480 which is like

01:38:40.880 who gives

01:38:41.620 the legitimacy

01:38:42.120 to those like

01:38:43.000 young able-bodied

01:38:44.020 men to enact

01:38:44.820 violence in a

01:38:45.700 legitimate way

01:38:46.520 a group of people

01:38:47.500 who have superior

01:38:48.600 force

01:38:49.160 no

01:38:49.900 no government

01:38:51.060 what

01:38:51.800 that's

01:38:52.340 that's what

01:38:52.860 a government

01:38:53.460 is

01:38:53.920 it's superior

01:38:54.860 force

01:38:55.160 Trump is just

01:38:55.660 stronger than

01:38:56.280 no the body

01:38:57.300 of the government

01:38:58.120 which has an arm

01:38:59.080 the branch

01:38:59.760 of force

01:39:00.640 is the government

01:39:02.400 it's all inclusive

01:39:03.400 it's all one big

01:39:04.240 thing right

01:39:04.660 the military is not

01:39:05.680 part of the government

01:39:06.280 no not necessarily

01:39:07.220 the government

01:39:07.680 rules over the

01:39:08.440 military

01:39:08.820 the military

01:39:10.520 is not an arm

01:39:11.180 of the government

01:39:11.800 when the president

01:39:13.260 is the leader

01:39:14.400 of what

01:39:14.940 yeah he's the leader

01:39:17.460 of it

01:39:17.780 it's underneath him

01:39:19.080 is it a part

01:39:20.120 of his governance

01:39:21.300 yes but that

01:39:22.960 doesn't mean

01:39:23.300 that it is

01:39:23.800 the government

01:39:24.220 right

01:39:24.540 the military

01:39:25.820 is not the

01:39:26.260 government

01:39:26.560 the military

01:39:27.380 is not part

01:39:27.980 of the government

01:39:28.480 that's not

01:39:29.080 what I said

01:39:29.520 I said that

01:39:30.460 it isn't

01:39:30.920 the government

01:39:31.480 right the one

01:39:32.220 that confers

01:39:32.980 the authority

01:39:33.560 to the violent

01:39:34.260 pension

01:39:34.660 is this hand

01:39:35.260 a part of my

01:39:35.700 body

01:39:36.020 yep

01:39:36.640 is it my

01:39:37.280 body

01:39:37.620 no it's

01:39:39.360 your hand

01:39:39.760 and it's

01:39:40.020 part of your

01:39:40.360 body

01:39:40.640 okay so

01:39:41.360 so it's

01:39:42.480 not my

01:39:43.100 body

01:39:43.420 well it is

01:39:44.100 your body

01:39:44.440 and it's

01:39:44.900 your hand

01:39:45.380 right there's

01:39:46.060 like a level

01:39:46.420 of specificity

01:39:47.120 that you can apply

01:39:47.740 to things

01:39:48.220 cool

01:39:48.480 so this

01:39:50.320 isn't my

01:39:50.800 body

01:39:51.160 it is your

01:39:51.860 body

01:39:52.100 it's just

01:39:52.740 also your

01:39:53.300 hand

01:39:53.560 so if

01:39:54.060 this

01:39:54.600 if I'm

01:39:55.180 the government

01:39:55.740 do you think

01:39:56.160 that's analogous

01:39:57.000 to the government

01:39:57.420 yeah if I'm

01:39:58.040 the government

01:39:58.540 and this is

01:39:59.400 the enforcement

01:39:59.980 arm

01:40:00.300 the military

01:40:00.900 is this

01:40:01.840 the government

01:40:02.780 by the same

01:40:04.000 logic

01:40:04.340 I'm sure

01:40:06.820 why are you

01:40:07.180 wincing

01:40:07.520 why are you

01:40:08.000 wincing

01:40:08.340 I'm wincing

01:40:09.280 because again

01:40:09.900 it makes me

01:40:10.940 wonder if you

01:40:11.340 understand your

01:40:11.940 what is wrong

01:40:12.480 with your brain

01:40:13.000 does your gut

01:40:13.520 do you

01:40:13.760 I use your

01:40:14.680 logic

01:40:15.120 what are the

01:40:15.480 three branches

01:40:15.940 of the government

01:40:16.500 legislative

01:40:17.460 uh

01:40:18.220 fucking

01:40:18.820 sorry

01:40:19.940 finish it

01:40:20.600 for me

01:40:20.980 executive

01:40:22.120 executive

01:40:22.760 judicial

01:40:23.320 gotcha

01:40:24.040 yeah none

01:40:24.360 of those

01:40:24.640 are military

01:40:25.140 if you might

01:40:25.620 notice

01:40:25.900 the executive

01:40:26.420 branch

01:40:26.860 needs the

01:40:27.420 military

01:40:27.840 well it's

01:40:28.320 under the

01:40:28.920 executive

01:40:29.240 branch

01:40:29.520 yeah it's

01:40:29.960 part of

01:40:30.320 the

01:40:30.420 it's

01:40:30.720 what are you

01:40:31.000 talking

01:40:31.160 I'm

01:40:31.580 saying

01:40:32.040 if you

01:40:32.440 can't

01:40:32.780 execute

01:40:33.240 a policy

01:40:34.020 there's

01:40:35.580 no executive

01:40:36.180 branch

01:40:36.640 yes so

01:40:37.400 the military

01:40:38.380 is under

01:40:39.140 the president

01:40:39.620 right

01:40:40.080 yeah and the

01:40:41.760 president's

01:40:42.420 what

01:40:42.860 what

01:40:44.360 the leader

01:40:45.240 of the

01:40:45.480 country

01:40:45.720 yeah yeah

01:40:46.320 the military

01:40:47.000 is under

01:40:47.420 him right

01:40:47.720 he gives

01:40:48.600 the military

01:40:48.980 the authority

01:40:49.460 to do the

01:40:50.060 violence

01:40:50.400 he legitimizes

01:40:51.220 it yeah

01:40:51.580 that's what

01:40:52.200 I'm saying

01:40:52.520 that's cool

01:40:53.020 that's in my

01:40:53.980 in favor of

01:40:54.460 my argument

01:40:54.920 uh you know

01:40:56.560 what that

01:40:57.280 that that

01:40:58.500 that body

01:40:59.420 can determine

01:41:00.760 right even if

01:41:01.800 you think it's

01:41:02.280 unjust it can

01:41:03.500 actually determine

01:41:04.420 and take control

01:41:05.640 it could literally

01:41:06.240 tomorrow could

01:41:07.520 take your rights

01:41:08.340 to vote right

01:41:09.100 I don't know why

01:41:09.880 you're talking

01:41:10.280 about the government

01:41:10.820 when you don't

01:41:11.280 even know the

01:41:11.740 three branches

01:41:12.220 look I know

01:41:12.860 you're going to

01:41:13.140 hold on to that

01:41:13.680 forever but

01:41:14.160 this it that's

01:41:14.980 it pales

01:41:15.860 like like what

01:41:17.060 you've said

01:41:17.520 tonight do you

01:41:18.200 know what the

01:41:18.520 legislative role

01:41:19.340 is it doesn't

01:41:20.280 matter it kind

01:41:21.280 of does it

01:41:21.640 doesn't matter

01:41:22.020 no because the

01:41:22.960 argument is

01:41:23.440 feminism this is

01:41:24.280 no this is the

01:41:24.900 same thing well

01:41:25.500 we've obviously

01:41:26.140 moved pretty far

01:41:26.880 away from it this

01:41:27.400 is the same thing

01:41:27.920 when we debated

01:41:28.460 last time and we

01:41:29.300 were talking about

01:41:29.820 what good is the

01:41:30.760 legislative body

01:41:31.700 that passes

01:41:32.420 you're fighting me

01:41:33.320 about concepts

01:41:34.240 I don't know

01:41:35.320 just to be clear

01:41:38.320 it's fine if you

01:41:39.500 don't know these

01:41:40.300 things if the

01:41:40.980 problem is when

01:41:41.580 you weaponize

01:41:42.340 your ignorance

01:41:43.520 about these ideas

01:41:44.940 all you have is

01:41:45.600 gaslighting

01:41:46.140 can you please

01:41:46.400 let me finish

01:41:46.860 all you do is

01:41:47.840 gaslight and

01:41:48.640 gaslight and

01:41:49.140 gaslight that's

01:41:49.840 all you do

01:41:50.180 that's literally

01:41:51.260 your career

01:41:51.800 you're like a

01:41:52.400 tumbler girl right

01:41:53.180 now

01:41:53.440 what good is

01:41:54.940 you're like cutting

01:41:55.400 your wrists and

01:41:55.880 being sad too

01:41:56.660 Kyla focus what

01:41:58.380 good is legislating

01:41:59.760 policy if you can't

01:42:01.280 execute it with

01:42:01.980 force it's no good

01:42:04.000 I am cool this is

01:42:05.760 not the argument

01:42:06.600 you're making

01:42:07.240 part of the is that

01:42:08.680 a part of the

01:42:09.160 government the

01:42:10.300 legislature yes okay

01:42:12.000 cool so if the

01:42:13.200 legislative branch is

01:42:14.280 a part of the

01:42:14.680 government that

01:42:15.520 informs policy and

01:42:17.100 makes policy and

01:42:17.800 passes policy or

01:42:18.620 whatever if it's no

01:42:20.160 good without force

01:42:21.380 right if passing

01:42:23.520 policy that gives

01:42:24.540 you entitlements

01:42:25.280 like voting or

01:42:26.000 anything else you

01:42:26.600 call liberty under

01:42:27.480 under under

01:42:28.300 feminism if the if

01:42:29.720 it's the case that

01:42:30.420 the body of force

01:42:31.360 could literally not

01:42:33.100 enforce it at all

01:42:33.940 yeah okay you're at

01:42:35.860 the mercy just like

01:42:36.780 me of a body of

01:42:38.240 predominantly men

01:42:39.340 therefore rights as

01:42:41.820 you argue them this

01:42:42.960 is this all branched

01:42:44.100 from this very simple

01:42:45.020 argument is that you

01:42:46.400 made an argument that

01:42:47.280 women should have

01:42:48.900 rights I

01:42:51.060 gave you the

01:42:52.380 entailment of that

01:42:53.380 if you say women

01:42:54.920 ought to have

01:42:55.720 rights which is a

01:42:56.720 normative claim about

01:42:58.560 what should happen

01:42:59.880 right you're

01:43:01.560 simultaneously saying

01:43:02.960 given that there's a

01:43:04.940 legislative branch

01:43:05.780 branch that writes

01:43:06.840 that out and does

01:43:07.560 it you're

01:43:08.320 simultaneously saying

01:43:09.560 that people in

01:43:11.400 the in the

01:43:12.000 legislative branch

01:43:12.740 in the enforcement

01:43:13.560 arm ought to

01:43:16.560 defend and uphold

01:43:18.400 that policy right

01:43:19.220 sure I guess cool

01:43:21.800 here's now there's an

01:43:22.740 obligation for men

01:43:23.780 primarily and from

01:43:25.140 your feminist view

01:43:25.900 you cannot produce an

01:43:28.340 obligation no you

01:43:29.440 lost feminism has

01:43:30.200 zero obligations

01:43:31.080 okay again

01:43:32.280 obligations men are

01:43:33.700 not obligated to be

01:43:34.580 police or or

01:43:35.540 soldiers soldiers and

01:43:37.500 police are obligated to

01:43:38.600 be police and

01:43:39.200 soldiers because that's

01:43:39.960 what they agree to

01:43:40.760 right so this this

01:43:41.760 obligation again

01:43:42.640 feminism it doesn't

01:43:44.600 obligate anything but

01:43:45.380 feminism isn't a

01:43:46.360 doctrine of political

01:43:47.480 governance right it

01:43:48.460 doesn't have to

01:43:49.180 obligate things in the

01:43:50.160 way that like a

01:43:50.660 government system does

01:43:51.600 for example the

01:43:52.380 government obligates you

01:43:53.760 as a citizen to listen

01:43:55.180 to the rules of the

01:43:56.180 country right it's

01:43:57.060 important and I know

01:43:57.960 you're gonna be like

01:43:58.420 how do you enforce

01:43:59.460 those rules it's

01:44:00.000 force but after that

01:44:02.180 after we've gotten

01:44:02.940 into that it's really

01:44:04.720 important for you to

01:44:05.240 understand that when

01:44:06.120 you're talking about

01:44:06.900 feminism it's not a

01:44:08.940 political philosophical

01:44:10.080 structure and so when

01:44:11.400 you're asking what the

01:44:12.200 obligations are

01:44:12.960 underneath it it's not

01:44:14.220 purport you're you're

01:44:15.260 basically measuring like

01:44:16.380 a truck when we're

01:44:17.920 talking about rainbows

01:44:18.940 you're gonna be like

01:44:19.320 why does this rainbow

01:44:20.160 work like the truck

01:44:20.980 does how do you put

01:44:23.140 that many words out

01:44:24.460 and say nothing

01:44:25.280 Jim Bob I'm sorry if

01:44:27.100 you didn't understand

01:44:28.140 that that might explain

01:44:29.420 why you don't know

01:44:30.080 three branches of the

01:44:31.060 government do I need

01:44:31.600 crayons just to be

01:44:32.320 clear I was pretty

01:44:33.880 simple in what I just

01:44:34.900 said okay cool so the

01:44:36.100 question is you don't

01:44:36.920 understand what I said

01:44:37.600 just to give it back

01:44:38.320 you agree that under

01:44:40.260 your feminist view that

01:44:41.260 you're you're arguing is

01:44:42.500 better or good for

01:44:43.500 society that there

01:44:44.480 actually are no

01:44:45.240 obligations it's not a

01:44:46.920 governmental system what

01:44:48.540 that's what makes

01:44:49.960 of course it's a

01:44:50.620 governmental system

01:44:51.340 feminism is not a

01:44:52.080 government the moment

01:44:52.580 you say women should

01:44:53.980 have x rights it

01:44:56.260 becomes a governmental

01:44:57.020 system it's part of a

01:44:58.300 gut you're appealing to

01:44:59.000 the government no

01:44:59.640 what do you mean

01:45:00.300 appealing to the

01:45:01.040 government is not the

01:45:02.300 same thing as being a

01:45:03.640 government system it is

01:45:04.800 obvious that feminism

01:45:05.920 is not equatable in any

01:45:07.580 way to like a democracy

01:45:09.040 or monarchy which is how

01:45:10.940 like power gets

01:45:11.840 confirmed I agree I

01:45:13.000 understand that well the

01:45:14.400 issue is that you're

01:45:15.040 pointing at feminism and

01:45:16.140 being like look at it it

01:45:16.920 has no obligations and

01:45:18.080 it's like you're comparing

01:45:19.040 that but you're comparing

01:45:20.040 that it's a world view

01:45:21.220 government system no but

01:45:22.380 world most worldviews don't

01:45:24.040 have obligations necessary

01:45:25.280 to them so what's better

01:45:26.960 for a society a society

01:45:28.460 that has obligations or

01:45:29.640 none none a society that

01:45:32.240 has obligations is

01:45:33.080 obviously better because

01:45:33.860 that's how you make

01:45:34.480 nation states that's how

01:45:35.500 you make society got you

01:45:36.580 so does feminism have

01:45:37.980 obligations again it

01:45:40.260 depends on what you mean by

01:45:41.200 obligations does your view

01:45:42.800 of feminism values no any

01:45:44.640 obligation that means you're

01:45:46.100 compelled to act a certain

01:45:48.400 way you're compelled to do

01:45:49.740 certain duties in the world

01:45:50.800 you're compelled to act no

01:45:53.540 feminism does not have

01:45:54.520 obligations with it it's not a

01:45:55.820 government system I got you

01:45:56.960 premise one a worldview that

01:46:00.800 has obligations and duties is

01:46:02.440 better than one that doesn't

01:46:03.840 hold on let me finish premise

01:46:05.460 two trucks are way better than

01:46:07.120 rainbows oh god she doesn't

01:46:08.960 want this to hit these are

01:46:10.300 these are just analogous stop

01:46:11.600 interrupting well you're

01:46:12.880 stopping stop what's the

01:46:14.540 fallacy the fallacy is that

01:46:16.000 you're being disanalogous what

01:46:17.640 that's not what are you

01:46:18.380 talking about what's this

01:46:19.100 analogous that that you're

01:46:20.380 comparing feminism to a

01:46:21.940 governmental system no it's not

01:46:23.500 a governmental system I didn't

01:46:24.900 say government you did I just

01:46:26.400 because you said it doesn't

01:46:27.320 have a way of enforcing

01:46:28.340 obligations I never said

01:46:29.140 anything but the only thing

01:46:30.380 that can enforce obligations

01:46:31.520 is a level I didn't say

01:46:33.220 enforce obligations with

01:46:35.180 government I didn't say that

01:46:36.340 that didn't come out of my

01:46:37.180 mouth okay okay premise one

01:46:39.360 don't interrupt me premise one

01:46:41.800 a society that has a worldview

01:46:45.300 with obligations and duties is

01:46:47.540 better than one without right

01:46:49.440 feminism doesn't have

01:46:51.140 obligations and duties in its

01:46:53.020 worldview conclusion any

01:46:56.040 worldview that has obligations

01:46:57.880 and duties is better than

01:46:59.880 feminism okay would you like to

01:47:06.080 respond to that yeah it's just

01:47:07.480 it's it's it's none of those

01:47:08.920 premises don't don't meta yelp

01:47:10.780 review just get to the

01:47:11.680 premises uh sure society with

01:47:14.120 obligations is better than a

01:47:15.440 side society without yeah I'm not

01:47:16.900 pro-anarchy feminism does not

01:47:19.000 have obligations in the case of

01:47:20.520 like statehood yeah it doesn't

01:47:21.760 it's not purporting to be a

01:47:22.800 governmental system this is again

01:47:24.260 just a false analogy well no it's

01:47:26.100 not an analogy it's literally a

01:47:27.600 premise with worldviews that you

01:47:29.360 and I both would agree might be

01:47:30.760 good things that don't have

01:47:31.880 necessary obligations that you

01:47:33.220 were compelled to do for

01:47:34.300 example religion that's a

01:47:35.860 contradiction religion is a

01:47:37.180 worldview that has duties and

01:47:38.600 obligations you are not forced to

01:47:40.300 do and nobody talked about

01:47:41.380 force what's wrong with your

01:47:42.880 brain that's what you said no

01:47:44.020 one said force then what is

01:47:45.580 obligations mean if you're not

01:47:46.640 compelled to do it what do you

01:47:47.940 mean it's it's a it's basically

01:47:49.860 like how else are you compelled

01:47:50.900 you say you're a Christian right

01:47:52.060 yeah how else are you compelled

01:47:53.700 are you have do you have an

01:47:54.940 obligation uh as a Christian to

01:47:57.540 what tell me any obligation on

01:47:59.880 your mangled Christian view that's

01:48:02.100 that you hold uh I suppose to uh

01:48:04.860 be honest before God got you do

01:48:07.240 you go to jail if you're not

01:48:08.440 honest before God no but cool now

01:48:10.220 you're changing what obligation

01:48:11.400 what's you I just demonstrated you

01:48:13.620 could hold an obligation without

01:48:14.900 any sort of force and why the fuck

01:48:16.660 were you talking about compelled

01:48:17.820 obligations because we're talking

01:48:18.940 about worldviews right if you as a

01:48:21.640 feminist present feminism against

01:48:24.140 say Christianity tonight and I

01:48:26.660 counter with Christianity that is

01:48:28.320 has tenfold obligations and duties

01:48:30.700 baked into it by the argument that

01:48:32.780 you just agreed to Christianity

01:48:34.820 which is patriarchal is better than

01:48:36.980 feminism it's the end of the

01:48:38.720 debate another false dichotomy you're

01:48:40.400 unironically making it seem like if

01:48:41.800 Christianity exists then feminism

01:48:43.540 can't and it's just like what nobody

01:48:45.540 said that you're just yes you did

01:48:47.200 look how do you not know what a

01:48:48.960 defeater is all I'm doing all I'm

01:48:50.760 doing Jim Bob is I'm walking your own

01:48:52.720 thoughts to their nth conclusion

01:48:54.200 right uh yeah you're not dealing with

01:48:56.100 that I am do I need to do it slower I

01:48:58.140 am the issue is that you have

01:48:59.560 changed so what you're doing is called

01:49:01.600 equivocating you're muddying a

01:49:03.200 definition how so obligations you

01:49:05.220 started by talking about like state

01:49:07.200 obligations things that you were

01:49:08.540 compelled she keeps bringing the

01:49:10.000 state in and I didn't bring the state

01:49:12.000 in the argument you explicitly did

01:49:14.220 because you were talking where is it in

01:49:15.680 my argument we were talking about

01:49:17.140 military where is it in my argument

01:49:18.560 uh do you find it there no sorry sorry

01:49:23.120 are you just using obligations as a

01:49:25.400 different word what like why are you

01:49:28.080 using obligate well just before you

01:49:30.180 were talking about obligations as a

01:49:31.600 compelled thing from governments which

01:49:33.080 the enforcement arm uh-huh right you

01:49:35.140 have a duty to your nation that's an

01:49:36.880 obligation that's awesome you can be

01:49:38.280 compelled to do it now you're talking

01:49:40.320 about obligations but I think what you

01:49:42.560 mean is values I'll do it these are not

01:49:44.580 the same thing hold on a second so when

01:49:46.360 you say obligations do you mean things

01:49:48.380 that you can be forced to do or

01:49:49.820 punished if you don't do I'll give you

01:49:51.580 another one that's actually my

01:49:52.660 question when you are talking about

01:49:54.020 obligations are you talking about

01:49:55.800 things that you if you don't that

01:49:57.360 you ought to do you can no not ought

01:49:59.240 yes I can be forced to do well no I

01:50:01.760 just demonstrated okay then

01:50:03.160 feminism does have obligations of

01:50:04.880 what you ought to do I okay cool yeah

01:50:07.020 so you're making moral claims right

01:50:09.100 well now because remember you went

01:50:11.020 remember you went here with Jay are

01:50:12.260 you sure you want to go there with me

01:50:13.280 of course because I fucking dumpstered

01:50:15.000 Jay on that too what you couldn't

01:50:16.980 tell me you couldn't tell him or the

01:50:18.600 audience or me why from a feminist

01:50:20.780 view we ought to do anything I did

01:50:23.120 multiple times he just didn't accept

01:50:25.080 the premise as a feminist you should

01:50:27.900 so specifically the ought is that we

01:50:29.680 should try to empower women and

01:50:31.860 promote that's an assertion pause

01:50:33.540 pause yes that's the argument that's

01:50:35.780 that's not an argument that's an

01:50:36.740 assertion do you know what an

01:50:37.660 argument is okay buddy premise one we

01:50:40.060 should do the thing in so the evidence

01:50:41.580 for this the evidence for this of why

01:50:43.620 we ought to do this is that it is good

01:50:45.500 for a society it is unavoidable and

01:50:48.040 necessity necessity to maintain a

01:50:51.380 competitive GDP in a global foreign

01:50:53.360 nation it is also a morally good thing

01:50:55.480 to basically uplift your sisters in

01:50:58.600 Christ and I think I got into another

01:51:01.980 one wow so it's a Christian you're

01:51:03.580 using a Christian paradigm or is it

01:51:05.000 mixed you're doing like a sort of like

01:51:06.680 Chipotle mixed burrito theology well

01:51:09.920 there's gonna be like moral claims

01:51:11.620 there's some certain Christian because

01:51:13.000 we share like a similar Christian value

01:51:15.360 obviously we don't hold secular people

01:51:17.260 to Christian moral systems right because

01:51:18.940 they're secular this is obviously true

01:51:20.960 okay so how is feminism Christian then

01:51:24.240 I'm not said that it's Christian

01:51:25.660 necessarily I'm saying as Christians

01:51:27.080 it's a good you just said we should

01:51:28.560 elevate women in Christ you're

01:51:31.300 smuggling in a Christian view into your

01:51:33.280 feminist view yeah I'm arguing why I

01:51:35.460 as a Christian think that like these

01:51:36.860 feminist values are good but I'm not

01:51:38.160 saying as a Christian you should be a

01:51:39.480 feminism you should be a feminist

01:51:41.060 sorry well I mean okay so back to the

01:51:45.520 argument if it's the case that any

01:51:48.320 worldview that has obligations and

01:51:50.980 duties is better than one without and

01:51:53.180 feminism actually doesn't really have

01:51:55.520 any it does have obligations if we're

01:51:57.140 just talking about things that you

01:51:58.420 ought to do as a result of the

01:51:59.580 worldview right so like feminism for

01:52:01.480 example would say that you ought to

01:52:02.640 respect women you ought to give them

01:52:04.400 consent you ought to allow them to

01:52:06.380 like self-determine you ought to like

01:52:08.400 treat women respectfully you ought to

01:52:10.540 like look at feminine things and view

01:52:12.960 them as good things these would be

01:52:15.180 oughts that feminism would make okay

01:52:16.880 ought you not as a feminist start an

01:52:19.520 OnlyFans uh that's mixed there's some

01:52:22.540 feminists that are very no you you're

01:52:25.300 the one debating tonight I don't think

01:52:28.100 that I ought no I don't think there's

01:52:29.500 any feminist who would say that you

01:52:31.020 ought to I didn't talk about any

01:52:32.520 feminists you're the feminist in the

01:52:34.380 seat right now I don't ought we from

01:52:36.140 your view ought ought your friend no

01:52:39.920 in OnlyFans chick no I don't think it's

01:52:42.140 a moral good to be an OnlyFans

01:52:43.680 okay so ought she ought not uh

01:52:46.560 feminism would be pretty neutral on

01:52:48.380 that by and large she my feminist

01:52:50.240 view would be that you get to

01:52:51.480 self-determine right so you get to

01:52:52.840 make that choice so if you ought to

01:52:54.260 self-determine and she determines that

01:52:56.000 she ought she should be an online

01:52:58.140 to prostitute then she ought be an

01:53:00.460 online prostitute this is no longer an

01:53:01.980 ought statement at this point what the

01:53:04.000 only ought statement is that woman

01:53:05.600 should be allowed to self-determine

01:53:07.200 after that what she chooses to do

01:53:08.880 isn't necessarily morally good or

01:53:10.640 morally bad we have to look at the

01:53:12.220 actual behavior itself to evaluate if

01:53:14.540 her choice in that behavior was

01:53:16.060 morally good or morally bad the ought

01:53:18.420 of feminism is just letting women

01:53:20.140 make choices so when is it in the

01:53:22.280 behavior you determine that it's bad

01:53:24.600 uh sorry I got distracted by that

01:53:27.420 person's PFP because it was funny uh

01:53:29.260 say that again when in the process of

01:53:31.260 an action do you determine it's bad

01:53:33.180 uh super uh complicated depends on your

01:53:38.200 like moral system what a surprise

01:53:39.740 well of course like the moral system so

01:53:41.980 like if this feminist for example is a

01:53:43.840 utilitarian then we might like look at

01:53:46.000 something like does porn negatively

01:53:47.580 impact men and does sex work negatively

01:53:49.920 impact you and I would say like for the

01:53:51.660 majority of men and women both of these

01:53:54.040 things are negative so that a utilitarian

01:53:55.500 level that individual might decide you

01:53:57.900 should not do porn wait this is this is

01:53:59.680 contrary with your first ethical system

01:54:01.800 which is merely that you should have a

01:54:04.340 say in what you're doing is ultimately

01:54:06.180 the primary the primary ethical view

01:54:08.340 is that you have a choice in the matter

01:54:09.820 that you can will your own behavior no

01:54:12.100 this isn't super complicated you ask

01:54:13.800 what are some of the aughts of

01:54:14.800 feminism one of the aughts of

01:54:15.900 feminism is that women should be able

01:54:17.420 to choose what they do but that doesn't

01:54:19.160 mean that all of their choices are

01:54:20.420 morally good or morally bad women have

01:54:22.240 children if they can uh again I don't

01:54:26.120 think it's a moral good to have

01:54:27.200 children no it's not a moral good to

01:54:28.720 have children no okay so how do you

01:54:30.880 determine it's not a moral good to have

01:54:32.780 children how do I determine that it's

01:54:35.340 not a moral good yeah because that's a

01:54:37.060 pretty affirmative statement that it's

01:54:38.400 not a moral good to have children I

01:54:40.100 didn't say it's bad right I didn't say

01:54:41.480 it's not it's amoral it's neutral yeah

01:54:43.180 I think having children's pretty

01:54:44.200 neutral you can pretty much anyone can

01:54:45.760 spread their legs and get sperm dumped

01:54:47.600 into them I don't think it's like a

01:54:48.760 particularly meaningful thing okay and

01:54:51.100 you and you call yourself a Christian

01:54:52.420 uh do you or not are you just larping

01:54:55.840 or what is it I'm sorry well I'm

01:54:57.480 assuming that there's an attack here

01:54:58.680 right so the the the I look this whole

01:55:01.000 night is an attack why why are you now

01:55:02.900 that we're talking about trying to get

01:55:04.260 your worldview it's all over the

01:55:05.400 fucking place you're not you're not

01:55:06.540 really trying to right like are you a

01:55:08.500 Christian is a question well what you're

01:55:10.540 doing is you're equivocating you're

01:55:11.740 pivoting you're asking me a bunch of

01:55:13.220 questions you're not really giving me

01:55:14.760 any space to ask you questions back

01:55:16.140 what you'll notice I'll you're the

01:55:17.540 affirmative is you have not made it

01:55:19.680 who's the affirmative I don't know

01:55:21.700 because there isn't actually a

01:55:22.780 feminism is good for society is the

01:55:25.820 affirmative that wasn't even what we

01:55:27.560 agreed to to debate what do you mean

01:55:29.340 we talked about just fleshing out the

01:55:30.980 idea of like different branches of

01:55:32.520 feminism neither one of us like made

01:55:34.100 this because you and I both agreed

01:55:36.260 that it would be a little silly to

01:55:37.280 rehash the same argument for the third

01:55:39.560 time call yourself some sort of

01:55:41.220 orthodox Protestant I don't even know

01:55:42.680 if it's a meme I'm trying to get from

01:55:44.840 your view it's called radical

01:55:46.240 orthodoxy radical orthodoxy okay so

01:55:50.540 so revolutionary orthodoxy nope what's

01:55:53.720 radical about it it's radical because

01:55:55.460 it like aims to go back to like the

01:55:57.080 way that the ancients engaged with the

01:55:58.420 original scripture ancient who the

01:56:01.020 ancients who like wrote it like the

01:56:02.700 oral traditionists and stuff who are

01:56:05.120 those that would be like 1200 BC to like

01:56:07.980 probably like 30 AD oh so you're

01:56:12.640 arguing that the original orthodox

01:56:16.460 church and the church fathers sorry I

01:56:19.640 know orthodox is confusing it's not like

01:56:21.280 eastern orthodox oh it's closer to

01:56:24.200 Protestant oh Protestant oh that was

01:56:26.180 around then nope oh interesting

01:56:29.100 Protestants can still engage like again

01:56:32.340 you're just doing the thing where you

01:56:33.240 like this word wasn't made so you can't

01:56:34.800 like and analyze it from history like

01:56:37.200 obviously as a Protestant you can look

01:56:39.460 back at what the ancients did and try

01:56:40.780 to define some like meaning thing but

01:56:42.080 again I want to be really cautious I'm

01:56:44.060 not a spiritual leader I don't actually

01:56:45.440 need to go into length about like

01:56:46.560 talking about theology well that's fine

01:56:48.500 I don't I'm not super well versed in

01:56:52.180 it either but I just wanted to get the

01:56:53.560 the peripheral basics because when you

01:56:55.760 say it's not a moral duty a moral good

01:56:58.720 why are you going to my religion then

01:57:00.360 when we're talking about because

01:57:01.360 because because feminism like if once

01:57:04.440 you get into ethics and morals you're

01:57:06.600 actually going to have to pull in a

01:57:08.220 theological view there's no avoiding it

01:57:10.200 sure but like my main theological view is

01:57:12.420 that like we should try to do well by

01:57:14.020 others and treat them well and allow

01:57:15.380 them as much as possible free choice and

01:57:18.080 I think feminism is one of the means by

01:57:19.700 which you offer women free choice right

01:57:21.500 I think it's really choice to act

01:57:23.180 against themselves yeah unfortunately

01:57:25.280 God allows us to sin right okay but

01:57:27.260 calling it sin you could make sin

01:57:29.060 illegal right got a lot hold on does

01:57:32.060 God allow us to make laws yep but he is

01:57:35.240 it sinful to murder yep so why do we put

01:57:38.480 unless it's self-defense why do we put no

01:57:40.140 that's killing that's not murder so if

01:57:42.380 if it's totally consistent on your

01:57:45.360 worldview to make something that's

01:57:47.220 sinful illegal why do you advocate

01:57:49.860 that's not what I said is it okay under

01:57:52.320 your worldview to make something that's

01:57:53.960 sinful illegal by and large I think that

01:57:56.500 like like what you should determine as

01:57:58.300 a nation of what's legal and illegal

01:58:00.180 should like at the most broadband work

01:58:02.860 to capture multiple like ethical systems

01:58:06.220 that people are bringing in because

01:58:07.540 especially in America you've got this

01:58:08.920 amalgamation of Protestants and

01:58:10.380 Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and

01:58:12.820 atheists and so I don't think like the

01:58:14.780 government should be a branch of like

01:58:16.160 God do you think that something that's

01:58:19.080 a sin can be made illegal can be yeah

01:58:23.000 under your view is it okay under your

01:58:25.500 feminist view right now that you're

01:58:27.920 defending which is advocating for

01:58:29.760 liberation the ability to choose and do

01:58:31.940 things do as I will essentially I don't

01:58:34.080 think all sin should be illegal like for

01:58:35.500 example cheating is a sin but I don't

01:58:36.880 think it should be illegal I don't

01:58:37.800 think you should be put in jail for

01:58:38.920 cheating oh interesting okay so how do

01:58:40.880 you determine which sins or

01:58:42.960 transgressions from your ambiguous

01:58:46.240 Christian Orthodox Protestant view by

01:58:49.840 the way is your Christian view informing

01:58:52.400 your view of your feminism or is it

01:58:55.300 probably yeah that's probably why for

01:58:57.460 example okay so why is it that you

01:58:59.740 would put someone in jail for one thing

01:59:02.820 that's misaligned with your moral code or

01:59:06.380 from you're driving from your Christian

01:59:08.180 view I'm not using my moral code to

01:59:09.940 determine like what's legal or illegal

01:59:11.380 what I'm doing is like looking at the

01:59:13.480 dialogue of society to determine like

01:59:15.620 which policies make for the best type of

01:59:17.760 society so for example murdering being

01:59:20.300 allowed is really bad for society because

01:59:22.600 then you're not guaranteeing your

01:59:23.920 citizens like individual safety which

01:59:27.480 means that no citizen is ever going to

01:59:29.000 buy into the government if the government

01:59:30.200 can't guarantee their safety okay so

01:59:31.760 murder is bad obviously but I don't think

01:59:33.500 what's legal like legal or illegal should

01:59:36.020 be our measures for what's morally good

01:59:37.680 or more the reason okay the reason I

01:59:39.200 ask because if you agree that murder is

01:59:41.580 bad and you you would actually make it

01:59:44.560 illegal and there's a penalty one of the

01:59:47.260 elements is that it's not good for

01:59:48.760 society it removes people from society

01:59:51.380 and society is composed of people and

01:59:53.480 you need people right for society that's

01:59:56.180 not why I think murder is bad but but do

01:59:58.460 you need people for society sure so having

02:00:00.780 people for society is a good right sure I

02:00:03.080 just okay so if having murder if having

02:00:05.420 good if having people for society is

02:00:08.200 good under your view how is it that

02:00:09.840 having a child is amoral because again I

02:00:12.940 think anyone can spread their legs and

02:00:14.600 have cum dumped into them I don't think

02:00:16.400 that it's meaningful to dump cum into a

02:00:18.240 woman or to like so is it and create a

02:00:20.000 life is it moral to feed your child to be

02:00:22.940 like a good parent yeah okay so this so I

02:00:25.300 don't understand you're reducing the act

02:00:28.040 of sex to be something mechanical and

02:00:30.400 because it's mechanical and anyone can

02:00:32.120 do it it's not moral but what's just as

02:00:34.720 mechanical literally is feeding your

02:00:37.200 kid food but that's moral what's the

02:00:38.980 what's the symmetry breaker there the

02:00:40.500 symmetry breaker is that typically when

02:00:41.760 people have sex there's a lot of like

02:00:42.920 self-serving hedonic like elements to it

02:00:44.860 I don't think that like most sex that

02:00:46.760 results in children I don't think is

02:00:48.300 oriented towards having children I think

02:00:49.800 it's having sex so it feels good whereas

02:00:51.920 when you're caretaking your child you're

02:00:53.800 like doing something by taking care of

02:00:55.420 another person okay it's a good thing

02:00:56.580 okay so you agree then even from your

02:00:58.540 view which is antithetical to most

02:01:00.480 feminist view that promiscuous sex is

02:01:03.840 probably not a great idea no I think

02:01:05.780 it's pretty much bad for everyone okay

02:01:08.020 but but you should be allowed to do it

02:01:10.020 okay you should be allowed to do it but

02:01:11.600 would you argue against it like saying

02:01:15.360 don't do promiscuity yeah shame women

02:01:17.920 shame women would not be what I would

02:01:19.960 why not it's just super ineffective shame

02:01:22.560 is ineffective did you live through the

02:01:24.520 carunca thing I don't know what that is

02:01:28.300 I can't say it on the the cough cough the

02:01:31.620 oh oh vid okay yeah I got you I did I

02:01:36.220 live through it yeah yeah would you say

02:01:38.120 during that time you you would argue

02:01:39.980 that shame was ineffective

02:01:41.120 yeah really I think force was more

02:01:46.340 effective right people were no actually

02:01:48.280 no for people were getting fined people

02:01:50.140 were getting fired from their jobs right

02:01:51.960 there was like more coercive pressure

02:01:53.280 applied to people to comply there was

02:01:54.980 that rather than shame I don't think

02:01:56.980 most people like put on a mask because

02:01:58.400 they felt shamed they put on a mask

02:01:59.900 because okay so you don't go into the

02:02:02.220 workplace or travel on the person who's

02:02:04.980 arguing there's a complexity and

02:02:06.940 everything can't be reduced to force

02:02:08.560 appeals to force here but doesn't appeal

02:02:10.920 to the complexity of social shame and and

02:02:13.480 the ability to structure society from

02:02:16.260 actual pure shame so yeah because I think

02:02:18.980 like when it comes to promiscuity for

02:02:20.480 example right I don't want people to not

02:02:22.480 be promiscuous because they're worried

02:02:23.940 that like some that they're like on the

02:02:26.020 unironic Iranian morality police are

02:02:29.520 going to come into their home and beat

02:02:30.540 them to death I think that that's a

02:02:31.680 really bad strategy I also think it's a

02:02:33.920 really bad strategy to be like we'll just

02:02:35.460 fucking hate you and no one will be your

02:02:37.060 friend if you have promiscuous sex I

02:02:38.520 also think that that doesn't work

02:02:39.700 because they'll have sex they'll just be

02:02:41.080 they'll just do it in secret what's

02:02:42.760 more effective than shame is when people

02:02:44.740 come to embody the values themselves

02:02:46.420 right so if promiscuity is bad for

02:02:48.380 women I want to advocate for that from a

02:02:50.360 lens of like it is good for you to not

02:02:52.900 be promiscuous not you're a bad dirty

02:02:55.300 whore if you're promiscuous because I

02:02:56.580 think it leads to a heart change okay

02:02:57.980 and I think the heart change is

02:02:59.160 fundamentally better for society I will

02:03:01.360 grant that that's also might be

02:03:05.540 effective but to say that shame is not

02:03:08.080 effective I wouldn't say that's either

02:03:09.640 or I think there's a combination I

02:03:10.780 should have specified shame is not

02:03:12.120 effective at changing hearts and I

02:03:13.520 think changing hearts is what matters

02:03:14.760 because when it comes to promiscuity the

02:03:16.400 reality is that it would work a little

02:03:18.040 bit people would have less sex overall

02:03:19.700 but you know what's been way more

02:03:21.000 effective than like the Christian

02:03:22.060 shaming for not having sex giving

02:03:23.860 people phones and social anxiety

02:03:25.620 Gen Z is having way less sex than ever

02:03:27.820 before because they won't talk to each

02:03:29.460 other right that's been way more

02:03:30.720 effective than shaming people because

02:03:32.440 if you look at Texas which was a state

02:03:34.340 that was very religious very shame

02:03:36.200 didn't give a lot of sex education

02:03:37.460 they're like the number one state for

02:03:39.060 teen pregnancy so this idea that shame

02:03:40.660 was effective at making all these teens

02:03:42.300 not have sex not really they just do it

02:03:44.640 I want to go back to this one question

02:03:47.280 is if if a bunch of Christian women

02:03:52.500 come forward and they hijack the term

02:03:54.780 feminism and they redefine it to be

02:03:57.620 fully submissive to a patriarchal system

02:04:00.380 that's a Christian ethics system and

02:04:02.520 fully backing it and defining feminism

02:04:05.840 as the ultimate femininity is motherhood

02:04:08.860 and being in the home from your view is

02:04:13.280 there any standard you could argue that

02:04:15.140 that's not feminism that's not my

02:04:17.940 feminism that's not the feminism I've

02:04:19.160 been fighting for no so there's no true

02:04:21.060 feminism I know like in the same way

02:04:23.440 like there isn't any true like what's

02:04:25.640 another anti-racism there isn't like a

02:04:29.580 true anti-racism it's always like morphing

02:04:32.680 and shifting in a dialogue over time it's

02:04:34.460 not operationally defined because it's

02:04:35.860 not a scientific concept okay if that's

02:04:37.500 the case could there be a type could

02:04:39.540 there be a form of feminism that you

02:04:41.380 couldn't possibly say isn't feminism

02:04:42.980 that it was actually fully restrictive

02:04:44.720 of women's liberties uh yeah I think

02:04:47.500 for example if like people like this

02:04:49.200 is feminism but all it is is like

02:04:51.020 basically putting women in hijabs

02:04:53.340 cutting off their clits and not allowing

02:04:55.160 them to walk around outside I think

02:04:56.620 everyone would agree that's nothing to

02:04:58.660 do with feminism wait wait wait we're

02:05:00.640 not talking about what people agree

02:05:01.980 because throughout time people have

02:05:03.440 agreed on some wacky shit the question

02:05:05.660 is from your view as a feminist if you

02:05:08.700 argue that there's no correct feminism

02:05:10.760 there's just your feminism and I posit

02:05:13.280 a counter feminism that's inconsistent

02:05:15.740 with your feminism what's the ultimate

02:05:18.160 standard it's not whether people have a

02:05:20.360 general intuition or they agree with it

02:05:22.140 the question is do you have an absolute

02:05:23.620 standard that's unchanging to say no

02:05:26.060 that's not feminism I think as long as

02:05:28.060 like the goal fundamentally is that

02:05:29.640 we're like trying to lead to the

02:05:31.080 betterment for women I think that

02:05:32.240 seems decently foundational for to

02:05:33.880 feminism is that's why that's what my

02:05:35.540 what if what if that form of feminism

02:05:38.780 argued that from their model from

02:05:41.020 their ethical system from their metrics

02:05:42.720 that was the better that was better

02:05:44.500 for women can there's like an entire

02:05:45.860 like trad wife movement that's like

02:05:47.460 very fat it's a feminist fourth wave

02:05:49.900 trad wife movement so you're everyone

02:05:51.600 so you're agreeing that from your own

02:05:53.660 system which is completely subjective to

02:05:56.100 your own opinion you have your own

02:05:57.680 feminism right it's like a it's like a

02:05:59.300 it's like your own innovation if that's

02:06:02.140 the case no it's not just my own

02:06:03.600 innovation yeah but there's no there's

02:06:05.200 no standard you know what like a social

02:06:06.800 dialogue is like how zeitgeists emerge

02:06:08.660 I'm saying there's no standard by

02:06:10.820 which you can determine that's

02:06:12.500 something it's not a science I

02:06:14.300 understand but do you agree there is

02:06:16.440 no standard for determining what

02:06:18.020 feminism is in the same way that

02:06:19.800 there's no standard by which you

02:06:21.160 determine humanitarianism other than

02:06:23.000 essentially there seems to be some

02:06:24.380 precept which is that it should be for

02:06:25.820 the betterment of women that's the

02:06:27.080 standard right but no that's just

02:06:28.420 the standard of what's better no but

02:06:30.780 the orientation of the people

02:06:32.000 advocating as a feminist should

02:06:33.460 ideally be advocating for things that

02:06:35.380 lead to good outcomes I know do you

02:06:37.720 understand when you say good outcomes

02:06:39.300 now the new thing you're calling

02:06:40.820 feminism is good outcomes and if it's

02:06:43.200 not no but if no just said you asked

02:06:45.200 me to like somewhat operationalize it

02:06:46.740 the issue is what you're doing is

02:06:47.980 again is that when it comes to

02:06:49.180 zeitgeists they're always popular

02:06:51.160 social dialogue they aren't

02:06:52.540 operationalized fundamentally that's

02:06:54.460 their nature this is why for example

02:06:55.860 the skeptical is there any

02:06:57.120 okay I'll just ask it

02:06:58.620 liberal I'll ask a different let me

02:07:00.280 finish I'm not done talking I know

02:07:01.800 but you're not answering the

02:07:02.520 question I am answering the

02:07:03.440 question liberalism is a great

02:07:04.660 example there are a whole bunch of

02:07:06.120 ideas that are what liberalism is

02:07:08.320 and liberalism is interesting because

02:07:10.100 it's developed beyond that it has a

02:07:11.380 couple of fundamental precepts that

02:07:12.860 if you don't really value these

02:07:14.180 things you're probably not a liberal

02:07:15.660 so for example if you don't value

02:07:18.120 women having some level of greater

02:07:20.640 level of choice you're probably not a

02:07:22.480 feminist I don't know why you

02:07:23.680 would use that word you just

02:07:25.280 contradicted yourself I just asked

02:07:27.800 you if there's any standard by

02:07:29.100 which you can tell someone they're

02:07:30.140 not a feminist and you said no I

02:07:31.820 said I said it broadly yes I said

02:07:34.240 but ultimately no no I said it

02:07:36.320 should be oriented towards the

02:07:37.300 betterment of women so is it

02:07:38.460 possible that someone else has a

02:07:40.580 standard for feminism that their

02:07:42.920 betterment for women right because

02:07:44.760 you're you're actually assuming that

02:07:46.540 you've established a standard for

02:07:47.760 better now if there's if it's the

02:07:50.120 case from your own view no yes

02:07:52.060 you're being semantic what do you

02:07:53.020 mean semantic what is better mean how

02:07:54.500 do you define humanitarianism I

02:07:56.220 don't give a shit about

02:07:56.900 humanitarianism I reject it it's an

02:07:58.860 analogous satanic but what is it how

02:08:01.660 do you it's satanic that's how you

02:08:03.560 define humanitarian humanitarianism

02:08:05.120 is a totally broad secular view of

02:08:08.080 healing the world it's basically like a

02:08:09.940 Talmudic basically worldview sure but

02:08:12.860 I'm sure you would agree that if

02:08:13.840 you're going to call yourself a

02:08:14.800 humanitarian there's a certain level of

02:08:16.540 like zeitgeist performance and thought

02:08:19.140 that you should probably adopt well not

02:08:21.340 really because that's why I debate them

02:08:22.960 too and what I bring to the table is

02:08:25.180 isn't it possible you can be a

02:08:26.480 humanitarian and off two-thirds of

02:08:28.500 the population

02:08:29.120 yes what you know what I hear

02:08:33.540 humanitarianism utilitarianism so at

02:08:36.800 this point are you just mad because

02:08:38.420 low mad Loki's wager exists for most

02:08:41.220 zeitgeist or like ideological how is

02:08:43.180 telling me I'm mad a counter argument

02:08:44.880 to what I just said I okay it's not I'm

02:08:47.000 making fun of you stop okay making fun

02:08:49.400 of me is not gonna work you could make

02:08:50.720 fun of me in addition to an argument

02:08:52.260 like I do yeah that's what I'm doing

02:08:53.520 okay cool so argument first just go

02:08:55.620 back okay make fun of you you're big

02:08:57.600 mad second second point when it comes

02:09:00.620 to ideological concepts they typically

02:09:03.120 aren't that operationally defined but

02:09:04.700 there's some level of collection

02:09:05.820 identity that we time to form around

02:09:07.920 that like all of us kind of agree is

02:09:10.120 some concept of feminism agreement which

02:09:12.180 is what yes so you can okay so you can

02:09:15.260 agree something completely antithetical to

02:09:17.660 those agreements right and it's still

02:09:18.760 feminism no because none of the other

02:09:20.720 feminists would agree to it right there's

02:09:22.360 no collect the question is if you don't

02:09:25.680 agree with previous feminists nobody

02:09:27.240 would label something as feminist if

02:09:28.980 it was like we should cut off women's

02:09:31.080 clips and put them in jail I would be

02:09:32.900 like that's not aren't there existing

02:09:34.460 feminists of different waves that would

02:09:36.460 say you're not a feminist yeah of course

02:09:38.220 cool that I'm sorry good job you

02:09:40.960 pointed out how ideologies work what no

02:09:43.020 I'm pointing out that when I ask you is

02:09:46.540 there a form of feminism that can be

02:09:48.200 presented and if there are Christians

02:09:50.560 that could point at you and say that

02:09:51.680 you're not a Christian they could try but

02:09:54.040 there's actually a standard by which you

02:09:55.560 can actually refute yeah there's some

02:09:56.940 level of standards as well for

02:09:58.020 feminism it's not as yes there is it's

02:09:59.760 not as organized as something like a

02:10:01.360 religion which is an institution what's

02:10:02.940 the ultimate standard from which you're

02:10:05.780 going to use when someone comes along

02:10:08.240 and says I'm a feminist and my form of

02:10:10.680 feminism argues that the best thing for

02:10:13.280 women is to limit their liberties how do

02:10:16.100 you counter and say you're not a real

02:10:17.420 feminist because I would say broadly

02:10:18.820 feminism is for giving women uh greater

02:10:22.580 access of choice and equalizing them as

02:10:24.740 far as like opportunity no you're

02:10:26.200 defining that but I'm asking that that

02:10:28.320 is broadly objectively true nothing about

02:10:31.300 this is objective you're talking about a

02:10:33.180 loki's wager concept so if it's the case

02:10:36.040 that your description of feminism is

02:10:38.280 giving them more opportunities and

02:10:40.020 liberty and all the in credit cards and

02:10:41.900 debt and all this shit and someone comes

02:10:43.440 along and says well I'm actually

02:10:44.800 redefining feminism to mean xyz is the

02:10:47.980 good I'm asking you without asserting

02:10:51.120 your your what you think is good do you

02:10:53.500 have a standard to which that you can

02:10:56.260 use to say that this new one is not true

02:10:59.220 no essentially you can always self-id

02:11:01.020 into most ideological groups the issue

02:11:02.920 is that the ideological group will likely

02:11:04.480 reject you right so it's like yeah

02:11:05.720 there are feminists that don't think

02:11:06.760 I'm feminist but by and large there is a

02:11:09.480 lot of feminists who agree with most of

02:11:11.080 my precepts because I am for the

02:11:12.520 empowerment and betterment of women which

02:11:14.380 almost every single feminist on the

02:11:16.420 planet has ever existed would be like

02:11:17.900 okay yeah that's obviously some element

02:11:19.840 of feminism you're bringing it what do

02:11:22.480 you mean you're bringing this up I'll do

02:11:24.360 it slower slower okay your definition

02:11:27.700 assumes a standard for betterment do

02:11:30.200 you understand that yeah and that's what

02:11:31.820 like the philosophical debate will be yes

02:11:34.420 so when someone comes and redefines

02:11:37.000 their standard for better I'm asking you

02:11:39.240 a simple question there's Kyla's better

02:11:41.700 for women and then there's an

02:11:43.180 antithetical view for women that's has a

02:11:45.680 different standard for better what's the

02:11:47.660 ultimate standard to determine which

02:11:49.620 one's better it's it's not an

02:11:51.220 institution there isn't one there is no

02:11:53.380 standard by which you determine any

02:11:55.300 feminism is good or bad it's an

02:11:57.300 ideological group of course not premise

02:11:59.240 one feminism is good for society

02:12:00.900 premise two there's no standard for good

02:12:02.760 for society again like I know you think

02:12:06.780 that this is a really strong argument

02:12:08.320 well it's a defeater no it's obviously

02:12:10.380 the case that when it comes to

02:12:11.660 ideological philosophical things like

02:12:14.220 egalitarianism or utilitarianism there

02:12:17.380 are certain things that you kind of have

02:12:18.940 to agree on like trying to like lead to

02:12:21.480 good outcomes for women with the good

02:12:23.700 outcomes broadly being defined to some

02:12:25.840 degree as freedom of opportunity that if

02:12:29.280 you claim to be feminist but all you

02:12:31.360 want to do is reduce opportunity almost

02:12:33.560 every single feminist universally will

02:12:36.060 reject you but obviously there's this

02:12:38.020 gray window in between like Loki's

02:12:40.640 wager where we're not quite sure where

02:12:42.640 the head and the neck start where we

02:12:44.280 can cut off and say this is clearly what

02:12:46.260 feminism is and this is clearly what

02:12:47.580 it's not but something that we can say

02:12:49.200 that is not feminism is somebody who

02:12:50.840 wants to put hijabs on women what and

02:12:52.440 cut off their clits like we can agree

02:12:53.960 with that that's their feminism no no

02:12:56.560 feminist they could just no they can

02:12:57.900 just say it's their family yeah of course

02:12:59.300 they can just and you can't say shit

02:13:00.720 back basically you can't I would

02:13:03.460 basically be like yeah you'd have to

02:13:04.740 make a historical argument for what

02:13:06.740 feminism is right sure to call back

02:13:09.580 subject again again that's not a call

02:13:13.100 back because all I was doing in that

02:13:14.640 debate was asking him to define a word

02:13:16.320 and he refused to and obvuscated from

02:13:18.080 defining the word because he knew that

02:13:19.280 if he defined the word then there would

02:13:20.840 be operations by which and norms that

02:13:22.500 we could actually talk about things and

02:13:24.120 if he couldn't gish gallop and like

02:13:25.460 obvuscate with like philosophy bullshit

02:13:28.060 then he he didn't have anything to talk

02:13:30.080 about right which is why he basically

02:13:31.520 said I won't do norms which is saying

02:13:33.740 I will not actually be good faith with

02:13:35.960 you in this conversation which is fine

02:13:37.480 that was Jay's choice to do but it made

02:13:39.160 it a useless conversation unfortunately

02:13:40.740 which I appreciate that you are not

02:13:42.240 doing mostly do you want to take that

02:13:44.640 brief break right now we're gonna take

02:13:47.380 a slight break or Kyla's anyways just a

02:13:51.020 slight break slight breather yeah open up

02:13:53.700 that all the way and I'm gonna read we

02:13:56.720 have a couple cash app messages from

02:13:59.440 people I'll just give you guys shout

02:14:00.820 out Colin thing for the 10 on cash app

02:14:03.440 George thing for the 10 on cash app

02:14:05.020 Thomas thing for the 5 on cash app really

02:14:07.700 appreciate it guys thank you thank you if

02:14:08.940 you want a hundred percent of your

02:14:11.180 contribution to go towards whatever and

02:14:14.460 not YouTube or Streamlabs or Apple or

02:14:16.440 whatever it is and you want us to be

02:14:18.520 able to continue putting out great

02:14:20.640 content like this support us you can do

02:14:23.140 so on Venmo cash app or whatever pod on

02:14:25.420 both also guys we have TTS coming up

02:14:28.080 here in just a moment as soon as Kyla

02:14:29.680 returns we're gonna do we have $100 TTS

02:14:33.260 that's Streamlabs.com slash whatever

02:14:36.460 they'll be right back in a moment they're

02:14:38.360 just getting Jim Bob's getting some beer

02:14:41.980 some water some refreshments guys if

02:14:44.280 you're enjoying the stream kindly like the

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02:15:03.520 it's a quick free easy way to support the

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02:15:15.580 and then shop.whatever.com if you want to

02:15:18.880 get yourself some merch also guys quick

02:15:22.320 Jim Bob Kyla and Jay assuming everybody's

02:15:28.900 all good to go for it will be joining us

02:15:31.660 tomorrow essentially for I guess a round

02:15:33.940 two on our dating talk episode they'll all

02:15:36.920 be on the dating talk panel that's

02:15:39.060 tomorrow 5 p.m pacific time here live

02:15:41.660 youtube.com slash whatever if you'd like to

02:15:45.000 see that let me see if we have and she is

02:15:49.620 returning we'll let some of the chats come

02:15:51.620 through right now so we have the great

02:15:56.580 my bestie no but somebody else blah blah blah

02:16:01.240 six nine six nine six nine six nine six

02:16:04.600 nine six nine six donated two hundred

02:16:07.360 dollars here's one more so good guys let's

02:16:11.500 see that mega cap

02:16:12.960 thank you you know we're we're 48 minutes

02:16:19.460 away the goal there's 48 minutes left on

02:16:21.580 the goal we're 25 of 50 we need uh 10 or uh we

02:16:26.220 need 10 and up so yellow super chats and

02:16:28.180 up we need 25 of those if you want to see

02:16:30.300 kyla here put on the maga hat so there's

02:16:32.800 that thank you for that though we have uh

02:16:34.940 blah blah blah thank you for the big

02:16:36.580 two hundred dollar message we have

02:16:38.940 giovanni here crack it

02:16:40.960 giovanni jd donated one hundred dollars

02:16:43.760 this retarded heretic doesn't understand how

02:16:46.900 his spurt reaction was exactly my point and

02:16:49.600 why is this for you jimbo bad it's both

02:16:51.540 of us if he's an equal opportunity

02:16:53.820 he still second are legitimately evil

02:16:56.060 a fat what a fat and shut up giovanni

02:17:00.580 your name's stupid anyway no one cares

02:17:02.520 hey that's some italian on italian

02:17:04.500 crime yeah i'm sicilian what are you

02:17:06.440 oh giovanni yeah what are you giovanni

02:17:08.840 raised by a mom there you go we have

02:17:13.440 jason here thank you jason appreciate

02:17:15.060 jason castle donated one hundred dollars

02:17:17.760 not so erudu tactics are literally the

02:17:20.680 intelligence application of force

02:17:22.500 especially in warfare are you dumb or are

02:17:25.580 you just intentionally being ignorant you

02:17:27.640 like to respond to uh jason there uh read

02:17:30.180 about master morality and then we'll take

02:17:32.540 it from there it's nietzsche by the way

02:17:34.540 okay we have a super chat here coming in

02:17:37.880 from let me just uh from zoe car pay zoe

02:17:42.180 thank you for the big super chat appreciate

02:17:43.480 it i feel like having the privilege to

02:17:45.500 stay home while my man works even though

02:17:47.680 i could go out and get a job is the

02:17:49.680 ultimate form of feminism mothers being

02:17:52.820 home with children is what's best for

02:17:54.260 society not unnecessarily fighting for

02:17:56.920 jobs we don't want hey zoe thank you

02:18:00.500 very much for the uh super chat really

02:18:02.320 appreciate it and then we have chief

02:18:04.900 dill pickles here

02:18:05.840 chef dill pickles donated one hundred dollars

02:18:10.340 this one jim bob steelman her position

02:18:13.060 then refute it expeditiously in jordan peterson's

02:18:17.220 voice please okay go for it well it sounds

02:18:20.540 like your position is this it's that and i i take

02:18:23.940 it you're also canadian is that is that

02:18:25.840 correct i actually live like five hours

02:18:27.920 from you live next to me well that makes

02:18:31.240 me really feel nice inside look it's as

02:18:35.060 simple as this i actually agree with jim

02:18:37.160 bob i'm gonna try to steel man you

02:18:39.140 you believe that it's actually best for

02:18:41.700 women ultimately to be in the home

02:18:44.420 correct no yes that's what she said she's

02:18:48.200 a liar demon spawn good one clean your

02:18:53.500 kitchen i think we need a champagne pop for

02:18:56.680 that jordan peterson impression that was

02:18:59.280 really good uh thank you and in fact if we

02:19:01.680 do get a champagne pop jim bob has to do

02:19:04.260 the rest of the show as no i will not okay

02:19:07.280 it'll ruin my entire soul he'll do the last

02:19:09.880 10 minutes of the show as jordan peterson

02:19:11.720 how about that uh okay we have inquisitor

02:19:14.320 zeal here guys if by the way get one in

02:19:16.220 hundred dollars inquisitor zeal donated

02:19:18.080 one hundred dollars thank you inquisitor

02:19:20.000 she said depends on your moral system and

02:19:22.240 that individual might decide so again she's

02:19:25.440 saying that each individual is the source

02:19:27.720 of moral duty her ego is her god

02:19:30.560 individualism is her religion

02:19:32.780 uh no uh most people tend to use some

02:19:39.040 level of like a secular utilitarian

02:19:41.040 framework which is broadly what people

02:19:42.760 like operate off of um when i try to

02:19:44.960 evaluate people's like moral systems i try

02:19:46.620 to understand like what they believe i

02:19:48.380 hold them to what they believe first and

02:19:49.940 foremost and then what their society

02:19:51.160 believes and then there are certain

02:19:52.560 things that i think are like greater

02:19:53.820 moral imperatives that like most people

02:19:55.960 would universally agree you should

02:19:57.380 follow like cannibalism is bad

02:19:59.020 people would agree with that is your

02:20:00.180 husband also whatever share your

02:20:02.900 christian view radical orthodox yeah

02:20:06.320 he does does that view hold that he's

02:20:10.120 ultimately the say in the house like

02:20:11.940 pointing in the direction of where you

02:20:13.960 guys are going where you live i yeah like

02:20:17.600 more he's he's like the final veto but

02:20:19.740 he's um he truly understands that like the

02:20:23.860 wife is uh is the church to christ right

02:20:27.280 like he's the head and you're the neck

02:20:29.560 as in like christ died for the body and

02:20:32.340 so there's a there's a leading from like

02:20:34.880 deep care right like nick nick doesn't

02:20:37.820 tell me that i must respect him because

02:20:39.900 he's a man i respect nick's decisions

02:20:42.920 even when we might disagree because he

02:20:45.480 fundamentally has the best interest for

02:20:47.260 both of us in mind and i trust him in

02:20:48.880 that i don't think all husbands are

02:20:50.420 that way well that's what i'm asking is

02:20:52.540 if you guys had a disagreement on a

02:20:54.020 direction or an issue i would honor him

02:20:55.780 even if you actually knew maybe you were

02:20:58.540 correct

02:20:59.160 uh yeah basically i'd honor him and what

02:21:03.580 is that's derivative of your christian

02:21:05.860 view right uh yeah do you think a

02:21:08.460 society made up of women who follow that

02:21:11.460 is better than a society of rebellious

02:21:14.000 women who don't follow that

02:21:15.220 uh no because i don't think most men

02:21:17.960 uh actually deserve the level of respect

02:21:20.100 that i give nick that might be true but

02:21:22.900 if it were the case that they were all

02:21:24.600 nicks would it be better for the rest of

02:21:27.120 the women to be you yeah if everyone was a

02:21:30.080 fucking amazing person yeah society would

02:21:32.380 be better i'm sure yeah of course

02:21:33.980 okay but men are not like most men are

02:21:36.860 not nick

02:21:37.240 i understand i'm just saying there is a

02:21:39.820 circumstance in which you actually do

02:21:41.960 submit as the woman in the house to the

02:21:44.600 leader who's the man it's reflective of a

02:21:46.580 christian view even if we disagree on

02:21:48.260 on uh yeah the truth of christianity

02:21:50.920 between us our doctrine or whatever is

02:21:52.860 that um ultimately if it were the case

02:21:55.660 that men were fulfilling the role of a

02:21:58.240 christian patriarch in a sense for the

02:22:01.080 family in society it would make sense to

02:22:03.660 you that the women would then follow the

02:22:05.200 men right

02:22:05.620 uh yeah like by and large i just think

02:22:08.540 like uh most modern forms of like

02:22:10.620 fundamental christianity set up men to

02:22:12.520 be extremely bad patriarchs i don't

02:22:14.560 think that they're christ to the church

02:22:15.960 at all they don't die for their women

02:22:17.840 they don't like put their family first

02:22:19.580 foremost um i think christian men are

02:22:22.640 oftentimes extremely led astray uh and

02:22:25.640 very cruel and i think a good man also

02:22:27.940 respects his woman and like listens to

02:22:29.800 her and takes her uh thoughts and

02:22:31.820 opinions very seriously in like weighing

02:22:33.720 out decisions

02:22:34.340 right i mean that's what i'm just

02:22:35.600 getting i just wanted to get to it

02:22:37.200 sounds like a type of version of

02:22:40.080 christianity you're really partial to

02:22:42.420 that if it was multiplied it would

02:22:45.520 make sense to hold a patriarchal uh view

02:22:48.820 and practice inside of a country and

02:22:50.960 then even inside of the home it would

02:22:52.460 make sense for the women to follow the

02:22:54.000 man if these conditions were met i just

02:22:56.140 wouldn't force it ever

02:22:56.960 right i don't believe in a society that

02:22:58.840 forces these things right but it's you

02:23:00.160 would advocate for it

02:23:01.240 uh the forcing or like no no just

02:23:04.940 advocate for the that patriarchal

02:23:07.340 hierarchical system

02:23:08.280 uh i don't know if i would advocate for

02:23:10.800 that for non-christians

02:23:12.240 because i i yeah i understand like why

02:23:15.320 would the man ever have why i agree i

02:23:17.080 think um i think

02:23:18.380 uh secular marriage and all that uh is

02:23:23.260 is a useless like thing to do from

02:23:26.600 their paradigm it doesn't even make

02:23:27.860 sense

02:23:28.240 why you why unless it was strictly like

02:23:31.040 this law-based advantage but

02:23:32.660 you know when when we marry

02:23:34.460 in christianity we're married to

02:23:37.000 something bigger than each other

02:23:38.460 yeah there's the covenant with

02:23:39.780 christ there's there's a whole thing

02:23:40.940 to it whereas a secular marriage you're

02:23:42.920 basically marrying each other's

02:23:44.360 preferences until they change

02:23:45.840 uh i think most secular people would

02:23:47.960 disagree with you pretty strongly on

02:23:49.280 that i think a lot of secular people

02:23:50.780 still embody a pretty high value for

02:23:52.860 like long-term commitment

02:23:54.060 um i just think that when it comes to

02:23:56.400 like a secular relationship like for

02:23:58.960 me when i look at that they're

02:24:00.060 missing like a core cornerstone that

02:24:01.980 pulls them together long-term over

02:24:03.800 time which would be christ but that's

02:24:05.220 not something i'd ever right but

02:24:06.540 here's the difference here is that um

02:24:08.600 from a christian position even like

02:24:11.720 uh the whole variety of christian

02:24:14.180 christian um proponents they have an

02:24:17.760 actually they have an obligation to

02:24:19.400 stay married like that would be the

02:24:21.280 ideal right there's an obligation

02:24:22.660 there a moral obligation secularism has

02:24:25.200 no there's no real moral obligation

02:24:26.960 i would disagree like for example the

02:24:28.680 moment that you have children for

02:24:30.040 example um i think there's an

02:24:32.120 extremely high pressure even for

02:24:33.880 secular people to try to make it work

02:24:36.020 right yeah children even without

02:24:38.280 children though it seems that most

02:24:39.800 secular people have adopted like into

02:24:42.200 their broadly i agree

02:24:44.520 utilitarian framework some level of

02:24:46.540 loyalty that's earned over time because

02:24:48.200 i think most people recognize that

02:24:49.580 loyalty i understand there's an

02:24:50.800 intuition i'm just saying there's a i'm

02:24:53.440 saying the difference between just a

02:24:54.880 mere intuition that they should

02:24:56.140 probably make it work versus an

02:24:58.220 obligation that's beyond their own

02:24:59.980 preferences it's not an intuition

02:25:01.920 right unless they're like moral

02:25:03.160 intuitivists which most people are like

02:25:05.160 not really most people aren't anything

02:25:07.320 most people don't have like a put it

02:25:08.840 this way put it this way they broadly

02:25:10.200 have a do you do attend a place that's

02:25:12.620 a building that you call a church okay

02:25:14.520 um the other people at your church who

02:25:17.980 know you're married if your marriage was

02:25:19.720 in trouble it would make sense that not

02:25:22.580 only they're they're obligated but

02:25:24.480 they're there to support you uh in your

02:25:27.520 marriage right again when you say

02:25:29.720 obligated do you mean it's something

02:25:32.360 that is good to do yeah it's a part of

02:25:34.780 the christian uh praxis that that you're

02:25:38.180 actually because you're married to a

02:25:40.080 church essentially of something bigger

02:25:42.040 that you're actually you're trying to

02:25:44.340 keep that intact in a way it's not just

02:25:46.620 your little uh temporal relationship but

02:25:50.260 i'm saying in a secular view they don't

02:25:52.260 actually have something bigger outside

02:25:54.180 of themselves even if you include a

02:25:55.840 kid they're just making the marriage

02:25:57.640 include another person but there's

02:25:59.260 nothing outside of them that they're

02:26:02.580 appealing to that's bigger than them

02:26:04.280 metaphysically spiritually it's just

02:26:06.100 like not spiritually obviously but they

02:26:07.660 have like the the community that you're

02:26:09.740 appealing to that the christians have

02:26:11.580 most secular people have a very um

02:26:14.820 interconnected community that would be

02:26:16.980 pushing towards that relationship

02:26:18.700 working out being the in-laws and

02:26:20.500 probably the shared mutual friends

02:26:22.080 right and ideally i think most secular

02:26:23.740 people would agree that the community

02:26:25.720 of friends that is around this couple if

02:26:27.640 they're having issues should come around

02:26:28.860 them and support them and obviously like

02:26:30.420 hope and wish and try to help in

02:26:32.720 whatever way they can to help that

02:26:34.300 couple stay together i think most

02:26:35.580 secular people hold this value

02:26:36.720 interesting i don't know if that's

02:26:39.000 actually i don't know that might be the

02:26:40.480 case it's just that it seems to me if

02:26:42.400 if they're secular they're looking at

02:26:44.840 basically they're measuring like

02:26:47.420 trade-offs like like material trade-offs

02:26:50.460 like well this could be an advantage

02:26:52.580 but then you weigh it against this and

02:26:54.140 from that view i feel like what i'm

02:26:55.880 trying to say is that the paradigm

02:26:57.620 that's judging the the trial and

02:27:01.080 tribulation what it is yeah it's

02:27:03.040 fundamentally different between a

02:27:04.320 christian and a secular like how they

02:27:06.060 frame yeah it's fundamentally different

02:27:07.920 the issue is that like i think

02:27:09.200 christians and non-christians get

02:27:10.900 divorced at pretty much the same

02:27:12.680 rate so it's like yeah i would agree

02:27:14.840 that like the systems by which they

02:27:16.800 derive their value of loyalty is

02:27:19.340 different it doesn't change that the

02:27:21.020 value of loyalty is there and it

02:27:22.360 doesn't work for about 50 percent of

02:27:23.900 couples anyways right

02:27:25.020 yeah maybe yeah christianity will also

02:27:29.180 cause like marriages to stay together

02:27:31.060 forever that are deeply loveless and

02:27:32.840 like awful right which is like

02:27:34.280 something that i don't think is good

02:27:36.060 necessarily like christians will look

02:27:38.120 at the 30 year couple that fucking hate

02:27:40.640 each other they just live with each

02:27:42.060 other and they'll be like look at what

02:27:43.240 a good thing it's like that's not a

02:27:44.940 good thing that's death like two people

02:27:47.220 that live together that forgot the

02:27:49.040 shadow of what it meant to be in love

02:27:50.820 just gripping on because like they feel

02:27:53.920 god tells them to that's not god's will

02:27:56.160 at all what they should be doing is

02:27:58.020 like surrendering themselves and

02:27:59.640 figuring out what the issue is yeah

02:28:01.880 that's why i think um christianity has a

02:28:04.820 better perspective because they can

02:28:06.680 actually even against your preferences

02:28:09.080 in the moment it's actually uh it's

02:28:12.340 probably a good thing to have people

02:28:14.000 externally also accountable to you

02:28:16.900 staying together i just think that's

02:28:18.660 stronger i just think that's stronger

02:28:20.320 from a christian view even if you're it

02:28:22.560 does sound stronger at a logical level

02:28:24.780 to some degree the issue is it just it's

02:28:26.420 not borne out in any of the stats and i

02:28:28.280 would add to that i don't know if you're

02:28:29.780 going in this direction it shouldn't be

02:28:31.380 law it shouldn't be a law it should

02:28:33.900 not no i think when like uh christianity

02:28:36.600 blends with politics like power and

02:28:39.080 politics i think it ruins the faith i

02:28:40.680 think it's really bad for the wait a

02:28:41.900 second that's interesting because you

02:28:44.420 agreed before that if a christian votes

02:28:48.660 on a policy you wouldn't you wouldn't

02:28:51.060 expect them to not vote on a policy

02:28:52.900 without it being it being informed by

02:28:55.060 their theology right uh yeah but that

02:28:58.020 doesn't mean that christianity like i

02:29:00.700 don't believe in like theocracies like i

02:29:02.580 don't think christianity right should run

02:29:05.040 the country i think i understand but a

02:29:06.580 theocracy let's say isn't it already the

02:29:09.560 case that people who have a christian

02:29:11.900 view if they get elected as a

02:29:15.100 representative of the people because of

02:29:17.400 their christian view they're also saying

02:29:19.460 that their christian view is going to

02:29:21.500 inform the policies yep so in fact it's

02:29:24.620 unavoidable to live in a system even a

02:29:26.880 pluralistic system like ours it's

02:29:29.600 unavoidable for people to pursue politics

02:29:31.980 and not have it have their theology

02:29:34.620 influence uh what i don't vote for my

02:29:37.280 theology almost at all unless unless

02:29:39.840 there's somebody running who's like i'm

02:29:41.440 gonna get rid of freedom of religion

02:29:42.600 then i would vote for my like theology

02:29:43.880 if i got well no that's you but i'm

02:29:45.240 saying foreign policy i don't think it's

02:29:46.820 fundamental that christians need to vote

02:29:48.900 based on their faith and i actually think

02:29:50.600 that it leads to a lot what else would

02:29:51.840 they vote on though

02:29:52.620 what nation states are for which is like

02:29:55.820 foreign policy and sovereignty yeah but

02:29:57.520 it's way more important to have a president

02:29:59.020 that like knows how to navigate global

02:30:01.400 trade

02:30:01.780 than to be like a nice christian guy

02:30:03.820 what's informing ethically because

02:30:07.820 when you vote you're informed by some

02:30:10.120 meta meta ethical view i'm i'm a i'm a

02:30:13.480 real do you know what real politic is no

02:30:15.800 it's like a philosophy of politics that's

02:30:18.160 like deeply pragmatic and devoid of moral

02:30:20.500 moral stuff like you don't impossible

02:30:22.480 nope uh it is impossible it's just pure

02:30:24.780 pragmatism no pragmatism there's no way

02:30:27.500 because then you're saying then you're

02:30:29.000 making an ought claim to do the most

02:30:30.760 pragmatic thing that's not a moral claim

02:30:32.920 ought we do the most pragmatic thing

02:30:35.400 that's not a moral claim it's not

02:30:37.340 nope not at like a government level oh so

02:30:39.300 like i vote for the government that i

02:30:41.260 think is going to enact the best policy

02:30:43.400 for that my sovereignty to do well is

02:30:46.800 your sovereignty a morally good thing or

02:30:48.760 not it's neutral but like i like if i

02:30:50.980 violate your sovereignty is it immoral

02:30:53.100 uh depends on how you violate it but uh if

02:30:55.980 i violate your sovereignty your your free

02:30:58.320 will

02:30:58.600 yeah yeah like just invade i don't limit

02:31:01.300 your ability to move uh do things in

02:31:04.060 the world if it's the case kyla yeah like

02:31:07.040 at an individual i understand but do you

02:31:08.860 understand the intel nation immoral if it

02:31:11.080 invades your sovereignty because you're

02:31:13.240 talking about nations now again well i'm

02:31:15.220 pointing to a nation consists of its

02:31:18.140 people so there's an individual level and a

02:31:20.040 collective level of a nation sovereignty

02:31:21.500 isn't about it like i don't have an

02:31:23.340 individual sovereignty is it morally good

02:31:25.260 for a country to protect to keep its

02:31:28.840 identity sovereign against foreign

02:31:31.920 invasion a moral good yeah because

02:31:34.920 isn't it wouldn't it be immoral for

02:31:37.440 another nation to invade your the

02:31:40.300 sovereignty and break the sovereignty

02:31:41.900 immoral to break somebody else's

02:31:43.640 sovereignty i need to think about that

02:31:44.780 i'm not sure fair enough but i don't

02:31:46.200 know if it's moral well you can i think

02:31:48.340 it's just fundamental like why are you a

02:31:50.320 nation if you're not protecting

02:31:51.520 sovereignty i just like i understand

02:31:53.180 basic point i think that this example

02:31:55.680 is perfect because if it's the case

02:31:58.000 that it's immoral if you want to think

02:32:00.100 about it further it's fine but just

02:32:01.780 think about it this way if it's immoral

02:32:04.120 for another nation to invade another and

02:32:06.600 break up its sovereignty and violate all

02:32:08.360 that if that's immoral then it's moral to

02:32:10.900 fight against that uh yep uh i'm just

02:32:14.580 that's why i said i'm not sure like it my

02:32:16.640 knee-jerk is like yeah it feels icky to

02:32:18.280 invade other sovereignty is it moral

02:32:20.820 though i'm not sure it's hard to it's

02:32:23.700 hard to view nations at like a moral and

02:32:25.960 immoral level well that's why i point to

02:32:28.560 they probably can so it probably is but

02:32:32.360 again there might be reasons by which you

02:32:34.180 invade another country's sovereignty that

02:32:35.900 are like legitimate like taking out

02:32:37.460 terror cells will it be morally

02:32:38.980 legitimate yeah like um i'm taking out

02:32:41.800 terror cells in lebanon yeah that's what i'm

02:32:43.520 saying is if you vote on foreign policy

02:32:45.320 you're ultimately asking a meta-ethical

02:32:47.520 or moral question given the situation so

02:32:50.000 it's never that's why i say pragmatism

02:32:52.260 even if you establish some sort of strict

02:32:54.280 rules of like outcomes that you like or

02:32:56.380 don't like ultimately when we press you

02:32:58.920 on it you're gonna actually have to

02:33:00.520 eventually you'll be forced just like the

02:33:02.300 example i gave to give a moral statement

02:33:04.840 about something because pragmatism yeah i

02:33:07.940 just demonstrated when i'm talking about

02:33:09.300 foreign policy i'm not talking about like

02:33:11.200 moral behavior what i'm mostly talking

02:33:13.340 about is like free trade and things that

02:33:15.100 like better my living as a result of how

02:33:17.480 we engage with like the global let's

02:33:19.400 take let's take even more of a domestic

02:33:21.160 issue because the the conversation and i

02:33:23.620 want to debate this more with other

02:33:24.720 people is this conversation of like keep

02:33:27.260 your theology out of my my business keep

02:33:29.940 your theology out of politics keep it out

02:33:31.920 of policy right this is a constant thing

02:33:34.120 yeah well do you are you for like

02:33:37.140 welfareism safety nets yep okay so from

02:33:40.720 your perspective do you take an amoral

02:33:43.780 approach to help people in their safety

02:33:45.820 net like with their safety nets uh as like

02:33:49.020 an individual or is it just pragmatic that

02:33:51.560 you should help people in need it's

02:33:53.340 definitely super pragmatic it's also

02:33:55.120 moral okay some things can be moral and

02:33:57.240 pragmatic okay so is that an example of

02:34:00.140 you being totally fine voting on a policy

02:34:03.460 that's both pragmatic and moral if it's

02:34:05.740 informed by their your theology uh yeah

02:34:08.120 sure i'm not opposed to people like just

02:34:10.160 vote like i yeah i don't know what you

02:34:13.020 think my idea is i'm not opposed to

02:34:14.520 people voting because of their theology i'm

02:34:16.880 opposed to people voting only for their

02:34:18.860 theology right though because the best

02:34:21.020 president for our nation isn't just like

02:34:22.780 the nice christian guy it's the guy who

02:34:24.720 understands how to interact with our like

02:34:27.660 global neighbors well i understand but

02:34:29.420 that just comes back to how do what

02:34:31.800 paradigm is evaluating the interaction if

02:34:35.040 it's not your if it's not ultimately your

02:34:36.680 theology it's pretty pragmatic right

02:34:38.540 because you can have a president who's a

02:34:40.180 massive bag of like bag of dicks he's

02:34:42.400 just a shitty person yeah but he's really

02:34:44.620 good at trade he gets us really good trade

02:34:47.040 deals the allies really like him and he

02:34:49.620 does a really good job of like breaking

02:34:51.180 up the axis of resistance i understand but

02:34:53.140 he's a dickhead i understand but that's

02:34:55.000 so it's not really moral that's the you're

02:34:57.480 now switching it to who you vote for that

02:35:00.140 does stuff what i'm asking is even if you

02:35:03.120 voted for a total atheist that just

02:35:04.920 somehow i didn't switch it you were

02:35:06.400 talking about who i would vote well i'm

02:35:07.880 saying so i didn't switch well i'm saying

02:35:09.300 just to be clear vote for or policies so

02:35:11.360 if they're conjoined that's fine yeah but

02:35:12.760 i wasn't switching i don't know what i'm

02:35:14.360 saying isn't it possible that a total

02:35:17.180 douchebag who doesn't even share your

02:35:19.060 values for some reason uh um is really

02:35:22.660 good at executing all the policies you

02:35:24.940 support yeah right that's what i said

02:35:26.660 okay if that's possible aren't you still

02:35:29.140 voting for them based on your theological

02:35:32.380 evaluation of what you think is good no i

02:35:35.400 would know what's evaluating what's good

02:35:37.140 then pragmatism yep pragmatism it what

02:35:40.880 when you say what works yeah but why isn't

02:35:43.020 something that works aren't you saying

02:35:44.540 it's morally good that it works there's

02:35:45.960 things that can be like beneficial that

02:35:47.520 are morally neutral so you want to benefit

02:35:50.300 society but but your standard for what

02:35:54.020 benefits society isn't a moral claim or an

02:35:56.480 ethical claim sometimes it's a moral claim

02:35:58.220 and sometimes it's not a moral claim

02:35:59.700 right there are like the like like this

02:36:01.740 is the problem with using the word good

02:36:02.860 is that like good can mean moral but it

02:36:04.620 can also just mean something functional

02:36:05.860 like good outcome right or performance

02:36:08.100 like a good basketball team right is

02:36:10.160 performatively good but they're not

02:36:11.820 morally good because they're awesome if i

02:36:13.360 buy a porsche right it's like a good

02:36:15.120 exchange the guy who sells it to me is

02:36:16.800 happy i'm happy because i have a porsche

02:36:18.280 it's not morally good to buy a porsche

02:36:19.720 right but then it gets into uh fuzzy

02:36:22.660 territory when you like for the examples

02:36:24.840 of like invading terror cells exactly which

02:36:27.380 is why i granted you where i'm like uh

02:36:28.980 invading sovereignty feels icky but there's

02:36:30.840 probably a number of situations where i

02:36:32.240 would think it's legitimate like invading

02:36:34.140 terrorists like i think bombing the

02:36:35.760 houthis was great base bomb them away

02:36:38.020 yeah yeah but you said that someone

02:36:40.080 shouldn't vote primarily on their

02:36:42.560 theology but even if they voted for a

02:36:44.720 guy who doesn't believe what they

02:36:46.200 believe but all of their policies

02:36:48.160 aligned with their the the voters

02:36:50.760 theology the the voter could still vote

02:36:53.820 vote on the total bag of dicks right

02:36:56.580 fully on their based on their theology

02:36:58.820 and it would actually this is the thing

02:37:00.340 here here put it this way isn't it

02:37:02.340 possible that voting fully on your

02:37:05.000 theology is the most pragmatic thing

02:37:06.700 no it's not possible what i don't think

02:37:10.280 so no there's a lot of there's a lot of

02:37:12.000 things that christians do based on our

02:37:14.580 religion that like is less functional

02:37:16.480 like this is why the path to hell is

02:37:18.860 wide and the path to heaven is narrow

02:37:20.340 because it's really hard to just do

02:37:22.820 always the morally upright thing it's

02:37:24.900 really difficult and i don't want to

02:37:26.300 hold nations to that standard i want

02:37:28.240 nations to mostly operate in neutrality

02:37:30.480 by and large and benefit us i understand

02:37:33.140 what you're saying but you just said

02:37:34.940 it's logically impossible that an

02:37:38.240 instance of voting fully on your

02:37:39.980 theology can't be pragmatic yeah so

02:37:43.040 like in the christian theology well yeah

02:37:45.060 i substantiated why because i think as

02:37:47.000 a christian like christians um at a

02:37:49.980 spiritual level i think are often

02:37:51.480 required to do things that are deeply

02:37:53.100 unpragmatic because it's the right i

02:37:54.880 understand that i actually agree with

02:37:56.520 you i think like a christian a purely

02:37:58.660 christian leader who's operating out of

02:38:01.200 christian principles is probably going

02:38:02.980 to make a pretty ineffective nation

02:38:04.520 leader i agree that a lot of times

02:38:06.600 we're challenged with pragmatism or

02:38:08.760 what's good and what's good isn't

02:38:10.460 always what's pragmatic i'm not

02:38:12.240 arguing whether that those things can

02:38:14.280 not align at some points often they

02:38:16.600 don't but that's a different question

02:38:18.320 of whether it's logically possible

02:38:20.080 to have to vote on a policy that's

02:38:24.860 wholly aligned and informed by your

02:38:27.940 theology and it's also pragmatic well

02:38:31.000 like you're saying it's not no no no

02:38:32.580 well you said a leader like a leader is

02:38:34.280 more than one policy one policy yeah of

02:38:36.400 course it can be pragmatic and

02:38:37.400 theological i when you said is can you

02:38:39.540 vote for some person who represents all

02:38:42.200 of your theology and have him be also

02:38:44.520 the most pragmatic leader and i was

02:38:46.240 like uh for christianity probably not

02:38:49.260 because christianity is constantly

02:38:51.140 dying to self turning the other cheek

02:38:53.660 like the ultimate christian leader

02:38:55.320 probably shouldn't bomb anyone so you

02:38:57.080 don't hold a view that most of the uh

02:38:59.720 secular worldview uh holds is that they

02:39:03.120 always say um i'm fine with you

02:39:05.780 believing what you believe it's just

02:39:07.940 when you um you inform policy from that

02:39:12.240 and you enforce xyz right yeah like i

02:39:15.000 don't want sharia law i don't like that

02:39:17.180 right but that's a particular kind of

02:39:19.120 thing i agree with you but if i can't if

02:39:20.920 i if i tell muslims that their religious

02:39:23.380 practice can't be like telling me what to

02:39:25.480 do i can't tell secularists that my

02:39:27.940 religious practice now gets to tell them

02:39:29.500 what to do at a criminal level i

02:39:30.680 understand but that means that if you

02:39:33.200 held that position like most secularists

02:39:35.260 do they are arguing from this position

02:39:37.960 that says i just don't want to force my

02:39:41.240 beliefs on you and i don't want you and

02:39:43.900 i don't want you to force your beliefs

02:39:45.000 on me right yeah that's what they're

02:39:46.500 saying yeah however the problem is there

02:39:49.020 are people who let's say don't believe

02:39:51.200 in rights yep isn't it the case that the

02:39:54.960 group of people who believe in rights

02:39:56.500 given that's a belief are forcing their

02:39:59.400 belief on other people uh i mean i think

02:40:02.440 you can technically like there's like a

02:40:04.720 thing where you can become like an

02:40:05.800 un-citizen essentially oh those people

02:40:07.720 yeah they don't do very well you can't

02:40:09.060 yeah it's just it's just retarded like

02:40:10.920 yeah i suppose we're like forcing people

02:40:12.960 to have human rights yeah but that's

02:40:14.840 just like the trade-off that we're

02:40:15.760 willing to do there are some well some

02:40:17.240 people don't are born into it they

02:40:18.760 never force people not to murder right

02:40:20.400 we like force people to pay taxes i

02:40:22.420 know there's lots of things that we

02:40:23.700 force people to do i know it's

02:40:25.040 justified one of the things that i

02:40:26.440 think we shouldn't do is force

02:40:27.940 religion as a christian specifically

02:40:30.060 because i want people to find christ

02:40:32.980 and like his gift of salvation is

02:40:35.840 like what turns their hearts to him

02:40:37.460 i'm not advocating for force i'm not

02:40:39.680 advocating for force uh you can't force

02:40:41.980 people to believe things for one but you

02:40:44.000 can't uh i'm not saying the i'm not

02:40:46.840 advocating i'm actually running a just

02:40:48.540 a basic hypothetical uh an inquiry to

02:40:51.760 demonstrate that it's actually impossible

02:40:54.320 to live in an ordered society without a

02:40:57.160 predominant belief being forced onto

02:40:59.220 people and the question only becomes

02:41:00.780 what are the beliefs so it's like

02:41:03.420 it's like i'm a liberal right so like

02:41:05.580 my answer to that predicament is like

02:41:07.460 the beliefs we should have should

02:41:09.480 probably maximize things like freedom

02:41:11.800 of choice freedom of like association

02:41:14.160 freedom of movement freedom of thought

02:41:16.580 and freedom of speech these things

02:41:18.060 seem to be damn near miraculous that we

02:41:20.780 came to when we look historically at

02:41:22.660 societies that didn't have this thing

02:41:24.260 it's not a good time can i ask a

02:41:26.220 clarification about that list sure do

02:41:28.500 you uh you said freedom of movement i

02:41:30.960 usually debate a libertarian on this

02:41:33.420 particular topic sure would you include

02:41:35.680 in that list i don't know if you said

02:41:37.120 it but freedom uh like property like

02:41:40.320 owning property uh like do i believe in

02:41:43.700 private property yeah like i believe in

02:41:45.260 okay cool so if you include that um if it

02:41:48.460 were the case that all of the land every

02:41:52.080 square inch of the u.s was owned

02:41:53.820 privately then you'd have no freedom of

02:41:55.380 mobility yeah right yeah that's the

02:41:56.980 palestinians play right now yeah so like

02:41:58.820 this is the classic calvin and hobbes

02:42:00.400 question which is that like freedom

02:42:02.080 often comes in tension with security

02:42:04.120 because there's certain freedoms that

02:42:05.800 we always opt to give up to maintain

02:42:07.840 security this is why open borders is

02:42:09.460 usually not a good idea because if you

02:42:11.000 have open borders you have no level of

02:42:12.620 security for your nation right which is

02:42:14.300 why borders are valuable and it's a

02:42:16.880 restriction on a freedom of movement

02:42:18.440 that most people are willing to accept

02:42:20.920 in exchange for the security do you

02:42:22.380 agree that most women feminists vote in

02:42:26.700 favor of security over liberty because

02:42:29.900 that's the trend that's the that's the

02:42:31.480 stats when you say security do you mean

02:42:32.840 like personal security or general it could

02:42:35.280 be personal it could be just a general like

02:42:37.400 well i want to be safe which is totally

02:42:40.280 aligned with their nature like to want to

02:42:41.760 be safe but the problem is if you and i

02:42:44.440 both agree that there is this constant

02:42:46.180 tension and dance between freedom and

02:42:48.180 security yeah and it happens to be the

02:42:49.960 case that women voting actually work

02:42:52.040 against what both of you and i think is

02:42:54.400 generally something you have to explore

02:42:57.240 well i like both of these things like

02:42:59.200 have you ever read jonathan height

02:43:00.440 um so you know his idea of like the

02:43:03.540 moral presuppositions that back behind

02:43:05.940 conservatism versus like liberalism

02:43:07.720 and the value systems and these are

02:43:09.440 pretty biological in fact it's like yeah

02:43:11.400 the discuss politics of discuss yeah

02:43:13.280 exactly okay so you're familiar so in

02:43:15.620 my mind essentially yes women if they

02:43:18.500 were more concerned about personal

02:43:19.900 security probably would be more pro

02:43:22.640 right wing but i think women just

02:43:24.240 prioritize things like caring for others

02:43:26.520 more than they do for that thing right

02:43:28.760 i understand but let's like i just want

02:43:30.460 to point something out very based of

02:43:32.120 women if it were the case that women

02:43:34.420 were still in the home and and uh held

02:43:37.840 the position of the woman in the home

02:43:39.640 from a christian lens and the man held

02:43:41.740 the position as the provider and

02:43:43.100 protector of the home the thing that

02:43:45.400 they're that they're yearning for without

02:43:47.800 that like let's say they didn't have a

02:43:49.380 husband or anybody it makes sense that

02:43:51.940 they're gonna look for the security in

02:43:54.040 the government if they don't have it

02:43:56.000 directly in their environment right i

02:43:58.740 mean i'm married with a husband with a

02:44:01.560 gun and i definitely look for security

02:44:03.080 from my government before i look for it

02:44:04.640 from my husband really yeah i'd prefer to

02:44:06.820 call the police then be like nick go get

02:44:08.420 them yeah obviously police have body

02:44:10.680 armor they have like tactical training

02:44:12.160 yeah but the police have no obligation

02:44:14.420 to protect you uh typically when you

02:44:16.040 have a house intruder you can call them

02:44:17.280 and they will protect you well no they

02:44:18.880 are going to uh get the guy who

02:44:22.040 violated a crime but they actually have

02:44:23.900 no obligation to protect you like like

02:44:27.140 stop i i understand like you know what

02:44:29.740 i know we did this song and dance

02:44:31.280 before i just think you're like being a

02:44:32.960 little bit finiggly with words right like

02:44:34.560 obviously when i'm like it went to the

02:44:36.160 supreme court though i understand right but

02:44:38.580 the issue is that supreme court is

02:44:40.100 specifically finiggly with words i

02:44:42.100 imagine if you ask most police officers

02:44:44.020 what do they say their duty is to serve

02:44:45.980 and protect right right serve and protect

02:44:48.700 what not people no that's a that's a

02:44:51.680 slogan it's not people you think police

02:44:53.560 officers don't feel that they're trying

02:44:54.620 to serve and protect citizens no they're

02:44:56.620 serving something and they're they're

02:44:59.300 protecting what the community no they're

02:45:02.080 protecting basically the the law and the

02:45:04.060 constitution i think they're serving the

02:45:05.780 law and they're protecting it's both

02:45:07.240 they're not protecting you that's for

02:45:09.160 sure i mean i mean if it's legally again

02:45:11.980 it sounds like you're using a colloquial

02:45:13.560 is like like i understand the colloquial

02:45:16.000 aspect of what you're saying is just that

02:45:18.880 actually like they have no obligation to

02:45:22.960 protect you it's just good to know that if

02:45:24.800 that's the case then nick yes your husband

02:45:28.000 should take that to heart and say you

02:45:30.400 know what if someone's in the home if it's

02:45:33.580 a choice between calling the cops and

02:45:35.600 waiting and having your your gun out

02:45:38.560 well these are not this is a false

02:45:40.220 i understand that's not either or but if

02:45:42.320 it's the case that you're waiting for the

02:45:44.020 police but you could actually you should

02:45:45.920 also have self-defense should you stop the

02:45:47.900 intruder before the police come then yeah

02:45:50.020 of course but that's not like what i'm

02:45:51.520 arguing for right like i'm obviously you

02:45:53.100 would you would hide and wait for the

02:45:54.980 police to show up and it's like are you

02:45:56.860 trained in in using a weapon uh yeah oh

02:46:00.400 good why wouldn't you why would you be

02:46:01.760 trained in using weapon to not use the

02:46:03.500 weapon i don't know because of one gun

02:46:04.900 and nick's definitely going to use the

02:46:06.060 weapon before i do fuck that shit so you

02:46:08.080 affirm gender roles uh yeah he's also

02:46:10.660 better with the gun in fairness like if i

02:46:13.220 if he hadn't ever used a gun before and i

02:46:15.660 was like very i was like a my dad is like

02:46:18.240 this like highly competitive he's like a

02:46:21.060 super shooter whatever and if say i trained

02:46:23.760 under my dad then i should have the gun

02:46:25.440 in the case of the home intruder but he's

02:46:27.400 better with the gun he's got more

02:46:28.740 comfortability with violence it's more his

02:46:31.060 penchant to do interesting so i this how

02:46:33.240 about this i'm also a retard when it

02:46:34.900 comes to when you when you're walking on

02:46:36.920 the street given that logic do you think

02:46:39.840 that the man has an obligation let's say

02:46:42.040 you're walking on the street and there's

02:46:44.320 an aggressor across the street and you know

02:46:46.580 that something could be done perhaps to

02:46:48.260 stop you don't know if you're gonna win

02:46:49.240 or not do you think you're obligated to

02:46:52.160 go or your husband to go fight the

02:46:55.360 aggressor neither people are obligated you

02:46:57.880 have no obligation when you say

02:46:58.960 obligated do you mean they ought to well

02:47:01.420 yeah that you ought to from from your

02:47:03.380 view that you ought to help the person

02:47:05.640 yeah but i would say like a police

02:47:07.160 officer ought to to a much higher degree

02:47:09.100 this is why after like the school

02:47:10.460 shooting in texas when the officers just

02:47:12.060 waited outside even though technically

02:47:13.600 they're not obligated to go in and

02:47:15.680 intervene with the shooter while they're

02:47:16.960 allowed every single person in society

02:47:19.120 said these cops are what's not a slur uh

02:47:23.740 fucking losers yeah fucking losers right

02:47:26.560 so there's there's this premise of like

02:47:28.140 yeah police don't aren't obligated to

02:47:30.340 protect us but obviously we have a social

02:47:32.240 expectation that like we probably should

02:47:34.760 try to intervene well that's what i'm

02:47:36.580 saying is like from a societal view um if

02:47:40.940 everyone knew everyone held a view that

02:47:43.200 they were obligated to aggress against

02:47:45.720 people who were who were doing harm or

02:47:47.880 doing illegal things even before the cops

02:47:50.420 arrived i feel like we live in a society

02:47:52.940 that's so like closed off you're afraid to

02:47:55.700 like intervene on anything uh you're just

02:47:58.280 closed off your own individual bubble

02:48:00.880 you're like i'm not dealing with that

02:48:02.520 um i feel like that's a kind of a

02:48:05.240 breakdown of the moral fabric and and to

02:48:07.600 tie it back into feminism the reason i

02:48:10.120 asked that question is i wondered if

02:48:12.500 debating you on gender roles is is just a

02:48:16.220 not like we already agree like that you

02:48:18.940 affirm gender roles the main difference

02:48:20.760 would be i would never compel women to

02:48:22.400 be in any specific gender role or men

02:48:24.420 right i'm fine with the fact that men and

02:48:26.520 women tend to naturally fall into these

02:48:28.260 dynamics and as long as it works for the

02:48:30.000 couple that's fine my biggest thing i'm i'm

02:48:32.660 truly a liberal in the most obnoxious way

02:48:34.360 i want people to choose i want people to

02:48:37.560 have choice and i hate it when big

02:48:40.360 government tries to force choices

02:48:42.060 especially when it comes to private lives

02:48:43.860 okay but do you plan on being a mother

02:48:46.000 uh probably i don't know if i can okay

02:48:49.840 like at a biological level just because of

02:48:51.880 like some health stuff but yeah i'd like

02:48:53.680 to well the reason i ask that is like

02:48:56.080 if you have a son or a daughter let's say

02:48:58.600 you have a son and you perceive that his

02:49:04.340 natural inclination is more gentle but you

02:49:08.320 also know it's better for him in the long

02:49:10.380 run to develop some sort of ability to be an

02:49:13.840 aggressor if he needed to would you

02:49:16.440 interview with would you intervene with

02:49:18.740 what you thought his natural inclination

02:49:20.740 was and nudge him into something that

02:49:23.240 occurred to you as unnatural uh to like

02:49:26.340 make him more functional probably to

02:49:28.200 some degree but i think if he resisted it

02:49:29.980 to a high level there's a certain level

02:49:31.880 of like yeah you want your kids to be

02:49:33.440 likable and like function in society and i

02:49:35.560 think good parents should try to like

02:49:37.540 help that happen but if you have a kid

02:49:40.160 who's so atypical from society that to

02:49:42.280 force him into that would do more damage

02:49:44.400 than to not then you should i understand

02:49:45.980 and i'm just saying like like there's more

02:49:47.960 to this is that it's it's beyond gender

02:49:50.320 it's like especially if you if you say you

02:49:54.820 you hold a christian view you're constantly

02:49:57.760 battling against human proclivities and

02:50:01.520 what people are naturally drawn to do now

02:50:04.980 you're just assuming well people are

02:50:06.920 naturally toward certain um certain um

02:50:10.220 talents or things like this but that

02:50:12.980 includes people being drawn to proclivities

02:50:15.880 that you actually have to correct and

02:50:17.420 that's why yeah it does tie back to

02:50:19.540 feminism because um i'm glad you push

02:50:22.040 back at least you're reserved about women

02:50:25.340 arguing that they're super empowered

02:50:27.860 doing pornography at age 24 or younger or

02:50:31.920 older and they're not considering long-term

02:50:34.780 effects of it uh what like you said you're

02:50:38.120 judging the the behavior based on the

02:50:40.340 future self like would you still do this

02:50:42.700 like would you would you have yeah yeah

02:50:44.780 which is obviously very difficult to do

02:50:47.080 uh but um that's why that's why i think

02:50:51.020 you can't really hold a christian view

02:50:52.640 and not be in a constant uh potential

02:50:55.820 state of intervention not just with your

02:50:57.700 family but with society itself at at large

02:51:01.080 i think i think it's just this like

02:51:02.800 tension it there's a there's an element

02:51:05.120 is the calvin and hobbes again there's a

02:51:06.740 certain level of like freedom that you want

02:51:08.540 people to have to self-actualize i think

02:51:11.000 that like diversity of ideas and concepts

02:51:13.500 and individuals is good and when i say

02:51:15.300 diversity i don't mean like skin color

02:51:17.040 that's fine too when i talk about

02:51:18.780 diversity i mean like different

02:51:20.400 expressions of humanity i think that's

02:51:22.640 really good and there's a certain level

02:51:24.340 of like nudging towards social normativity

02:51:26.300 that helps people function and flourish

02:51:28.800 and when you have kiddos i think you have

02:51:30.480 to constantly do the tension of letting

02:51:31.920 your kiddos be them do you think also

02:51:33.840 teaching them like yeah the whole diversity

02:51:35.540 thing i think is kind of bullshit because

02:51:37.700 um you would have to include people in

02:51:41.340 public walking each other on like leather

02:51:43.660 and like they're they're in like leather

02:51:45.260 panties and stuff that's diversity right

02:51:47.240 no like you're making like a slippery

02:51:49.560 soap fallacy just because i like want

02:51:51.280 people to be able to like do and like

02:51:53.160 self-express that doesn't mean that i want

02:51:54.780 ultimate maximal self-expression

02:51:56.220 otherwise like dexter would be like

02:51:57.900 i love killing people no no forget about

02:51:59.860 the forget about the aggressing on other

02:52:02.720 people this is where basically every

02:52:05.900 libertarian argument uh goes which you

02:52:08.020 you kind of are libertarian it sounds

02:52:10.200 like would you categorize yourself as

02:52:12.180 like a libertarian feminist or something

02:52:14.560 no i'm i'm pretty like standard liberal

02:52:17.380 like i really am because i i just to be

02:52:19.720 clear i'm still pro welfare state and

02:52:21.760 still pro like uh market regulation this

02:52:25.720 is why i asked liberal camp it's

02:52:27.260 ultimately going to be your theological

02:52:29.240 view and your ethical view that's going

02:52:32.320 to try to justify the forceful intervention

02:52:35.720 of public degeneracy in instances where

02:52:39.220 nothing's being actually broken no

02:52:41.560 properties being damaged there's nothing

02:52:43.400 being stolen there's no one actually

02:52:45.780 physically being aggressed or harmed but

02:52:48.180 it's degenerate right yep yeah and it's way

02:52:51.400 more it's like um you say you have a person

02:52:53.520 and they love shitting in public and they

02:52:56.020 also clean up after themselves right so

02:52:57.760 they drop their pants they take a massive

02:52:59.840 shit in the middle of the you hear that

02:53:01.440 libertarians and then they clean up after

02:53:03.520 themselves right there's this question

02:53:04.880 like the libertarian bees like well they

02:53:06.820 should be able to do that right i'm like

02:53:08.540 man there's a certain level of like

02:53:10.320 social functional performativity that

02:53:12.240 you should engage in where you like don't

02:53:13.540 thrust your taboos on other people so

02:53:15.700 like the leather walking i think is

02:53:17.500 essentially thrusting your taboos onto

02:53:19.220 other people that are not what about

02:53:20.620 homosexuality uh yeah i basically think

02:53:24.160 that that's uh a taboo that i'm glad that

02:53:26.400 we've reduced to not being a taboo yeah oh

02:53:28.700 so you are so public display of

02:53:32.020 homosexuality is not something but the

02:53:34.760 dog walking thing is something you want

02:53:36.780 to crack down on but the pub like uh pride

02:53:39.620 parades uh active simulated sexuality on on

02:53:44.240 uh on the back of trucks that's good nope

02:53:47.060 that's not what i said when you said

02:53:48.340 homosexuality and i was picturing like

02:53:49.960 gay men walking down the street holding

02:53:51.420 hands and stuff like that like i think

02:53:53.040 that's fine under a christian view yep

02:53:55.280 really yeah if they're like secular

02:53:57.520 people yeah why would i tell them that

02:53:58.740 they can't do that well i didn't say

02:54:00.040 they can't do it i'm saying well you're

02:54:01.880 basically arguing that i should find a

02:54:03.540 structure by which i enforce that gay

02:54:05.180 men well i'm trying to find the

02:54:06.300 threshold at which you um you use the

02:54:10.020 bulldozer to clean the streets you said

02:54:12.440 the the shitting in the streets is a no-no

02:54:14.500 yep right uh how about wearing like a

02:54:17.700 dildo on your head

02:54:18.400 um again if you're in like certain public

02:54:22.340 spaces where everyone's consenting to

02:54:23.660 that i don't care

02:54:24.220 like say you go to like a gay bar and

02:54:26.420 that's like a fun no no out in the

02:54:27.740 street where kids are

02:54:28.800 um yeah like i don't think most parents

02:54:32.600 are consenting to their kids like seeing

02:54:34.320 that so you probably shouldn't do that

02:54:35.460 okay but the thing is have you ever seen

02:54:37.860 a gay pride parade

02:54:38.580 yep i do you think that i support

02:54:41.320 everything that happens at gay pride

02:54:42.900 parades i didn't say that i said is

02:54:44.760 there a is there something that you'd

02:54:46.440 seen at a gay pride parade yeah that

02:54:48.400 you would use force to remove

02:54:50.400 uh use force to remove no i would use

02:54:54.100 like social pressure oh so now pressure

02:54:56.320 does work before you were like well we

02:54:57.900 can't really shame yeah shame that's

02:54:59.260 social pressure no social pressure can

02:55:00.900 be like more than that right what is it

02:55:02.700 shame isn't the only method by which

02:55:04.080 i'm interested what else i want all i

02:55:06.800 want all tools of social pressure to be

02:55:08.760 uh you can use guilt systems that's

02:55:11.100 shilt that's shame shame and guilt are

02:55:12.840 functionally very different especially at

02:55:15.080 a psychological level and like affecting

02:55:16.720 change of behavior you can also use uh

02:55:19.620 like positive reinforcement structures to

02:55:21.720 make certain behaviors like more likely

02:55:23.100 to occur so like tax write-offs for ev is

02:55:26.320 a way that you socially coerce people to

02:55:28.300 do ev etc etc how do you use social

02:55:31.620 pressure to get to lisping dudes in

02:55:35.440 their thongs in public to not do that

02:55:38.840 uh you i think you can use some level of

02:55:41.160 conversation around like consent like

02:55:42.500 essentially uh it's probably not super

02:55:44.480 appropriate in a public space where

02:55:45.660 there are children to like thrust your

02:55:47.740 sexual taboo onto children who don't

02:55:49.680 understand it can't consent it and the

02:55:51.000 parents are probably not consenting to

02:55:52.140 it so you would would you walk up to

02:55:54.700 that person and say that or i'd probably

02:55:56.420 talk to the organizer of the pride

02:55:57.800 parade because they're the ones like

02:55:58.940 allowing it right right how do you

02:56:01.060 think that would go i don't know

02:56:03.180 probably some probably not so good huh

02:56:05.020 yeah some would be like thanks for your

02:56:07.320 opinion yeah but that that's just like

02:56:09.260 not what we're debating about like so

02:56:10.560 yeah yeah i mean there's lots of queer

02:56:12.460 people that are fucking retarded true

02:56:14.240 we are uh gonna do little chats here

02:56:17.760 we're gonna probably wind down

02:56:18.840 momentarily so if you want get them in

02:56:20.480 we've reduced the tts if you want we'll

02:56:22.280 do a roast session do a bit of a roast

02:56:24.360 session 69 dollar tts via stream labs if

02:56:27.840 you want to get a roast in we have some

02:56:29.220 chats coming in desert desert joe thank

02:56:31.540 you man desert joe donated 100

02:56:33.780 appreciate it jim bob do it again but

02:56:36.680 this time as ben chapiro i think it was

02:56:39.180 like the steel man damn it steel man

02:56:41.460 they're always forcing me to do it in

02:56:42.900 impressions you're a fan of ben chapiro

02:56:44.500 aren't you big fan pro israel guy israel

02:56:47.760 i like some of his dances what do you

02:56:49.980 like about what do you like tell me uh

02:56:52.160 my wife doesn't tell me how much she

02:56:53.560 likes me so i'm gonna take it from you

02:56:54.860 tell me tell me i don't know i feel

02:56:59.120 like he's gonna watch this tell me tell

02:57:00.680 me i'm symmetrical

02:57:01.940 am i a big man i don't tell me i'm a

02:57:05.500 big man on campus this is not your best

02:57:07.360 impression come on your jordan peterson

02:57:08.980 one is is pretty good but this one this

02:57:10.780 one's okay

02:57:11.460 thank you

02:57:16.280 donated 100 thank you gluggedy glug glug gloopy glump groupers

02:57:21.100 shimmy tishim shim shim shim yeah shim

02:57:23.340 yep trolley ollie ollie ollie ollie ollie ollie

02:57:26.140 love it slippy slop it's time for another shot

02:57:29.340 it's a what a great debate thank you for

02:57:32.260 that appreciate it thank you thank you for

02:57:34.060 your message we have dark omen 42 coming

02:57:37.140 in here in just a moment uh thank you dark

02:57:40.160 omen appreciate it and thank you gluggedy glug

02:57:43.960 dark omen 42 donated 100

02:57:47.900 castle rock v gonzalez scotus decision police only have an obligation to defend

02:57:54.520 you if you're in custody when second matter police are minutes away

02:57:58.740 uvaldi cops were fired not charged yeah i didn't disagree with this i just said

02:58:04.660 everyone also hated them because obviously most people expect cops to

02:58:08.620 engage in some level of protecting like community even though they're not

02:58:11.620 legally obligated to right we have your friend here intel intel wild

02:58:17.520 donated 69 dollars jim bop hitting the gym is definitely making your

02:58:23.120 shoulders look bigger you totally wrecked this three hundred and

02:58:26.800 four or two tonight okay w jim bop thank you there's slowly but surely thank you

02:58:32.720 intel good to see you gotta say his lowest donation so far has been not

02:58:36.980 talking about me but glazing you guys interesting what are you trying to say

02:58:42.020 about intel i'm saying it's expensive intel wild love spending money to talk to

02:58:46.940 me there you go okay got jason here thank you jason jason castle donated 69

02:58:53.380 dollars nietzsche's concept of master morality supports my view of tactics the

02:58:58.780 noble tactician applies force intelligently

02:59:01.420 unashamedly shaping the battlefield not dodging power with moral excuses he's

02:59:06.820 got he's got a follow-up coming in here in just a moment that was a crazy

02:59:11.360 statement jason castle literally went to chat gbt and rolled his forehead on it

02:59:15.520 and said nietzsche some castle donated 69 dollars

02:59:18.780 also i find it funny that you claim to be a christian but you reference nietzsche in the

02:59:24.780 antichrist nietzsche states christianity as the one great curse

02:59:28.780 i also cited heidegger who's a nazi do you think that that means that i also am a

02:59:33.440 nazi like yes you can cite people who disagree with multiple things that also

02:59:38.640 have good criticisms of other systems like what a non-statement

02:59:42.100 so guys if you want to get a message in 69 tts also i just wanted to pull this one

02:59:47.060 back up just to give you an example of what i'm talking about

02:59:49.060 it's the way that you know if somebody typically i mean i guess you can custom it

02:59:53.260 in if you're on desktop you can customize an input

02:59:56.000 to make it 99 dollars and 99 cents if it's ending in 99 cents typically that

03:00:00.720 means they've done it through the youtube app

03:00:02.280 so if you're using uh apple ios you're using a youtube app either on an iphone

03:00:08.060 ipad whatever whatever device it is yeah so apple's going to take 30

03:00:12.700 then youtube's going to take 30 so that it leaves the creator with

03:00:16.820 uh 49 so basically the math on it is 100 times 0.7 times 0.7

03:00:23.200 that's what the creator is left with so still super appreciative of the super

03:00:27.460 chat but just just be aware when you're sending these in

03:00:29.780 if you are trying to be a patron of the show it's always a bad girl

03:00:33.420 it's terrible zoe yeah apple takes their 30 percent then youtube takes their

03:00:37.800 30 percent 69 tts also if you guys

03:00:40.640 speaking of actually venmo cash app we get 100 of your contribution

03:00:45.220 so these platforms won't take their cut john thank you for the two dollars on

03:00:48.480 cash app appreciate that and it is a 69 tts if you guys want to get it in

03:00:54.220 uh you know what uh unless you guys wanted to do a bit more open conversation i think

03:00:58.620 we can just go into the closing statements unless you guys

03:01:00.840 want to cover anything else we can do that okay you've been here for 18 hours

03:01:04.440 yep uh so uh kyla you get to uh close first why don't you

03:01:09.640 go don't i close last because i went i have second

03:01:12.720 because he got the first word so i got the last word right or wait hold on yeah

03:01:17.020 because last time i got yeah it should probably should be because usually

03:01:20.400 starting first is the strongest and ending last is like the strongest you

03:01:23.400 balance those two things isn't it like first goes last i went

03:01:28.740 first is that how it goes but then you're getting the strongest starting

03:01:32.000 and the strongest ending which doesn't make a lot of sense right i thought it

03:01:34.760 was like recency effect and i think affirming isn't the strongest because

03:01:39.420 you're in the no when i say when i say strongest i mean like to the viewer

03:01:43.720 there's recency effect and then there's like uh um initiation effect or whatever

03:01:48.160 it's called where it's the first i don't care i thought whoever whoever goes

03:01:50.680 first i don't really care whatever you want to do for the close but uh that would

03:01:55.460 mean that he goes first for the close and then i end it sorry wait i misspoke

03:01:59.660 whoever goes first for the for the open goes second for the close am i just

03:02:07.720 whatever you want to do boss it's your show you know what we're gonna have you

03:02:13.540 you know what no kyla gets last word sure bob go ahead okay cool um yeah so the

03:02:19.700 debate uh there wasn't a clear prompt it wasn't

03:02:22.400 exactly the same as her previous debate uh essentially we're looking at what

03:02:26.380 feminism is what feminism isn't i think the key thing to take away

03:02:30.180 tonight um from this debate conversation was

03:02:34.360 that when you ask someone like kyla is there a is there a standard for what

03:02:40.700 constitutes feminism and the answer is no there really isn't a a position you can

03:02:48.000 take to say this feminism thing is good for society it's just a set of

03:02:52.320 preferences that you're calling feminism that a stance that's totally

03:02:57.360 antithetical to those to those that criteria could also claim feminism so in

03:03:01.800 other words i can claim feminism true feminism the real feminism is

03:03:06.500 actually a christian ethical system uh a christian duty-based system that puts

03:03:12.320 the wife and the mother primarily at home raising the children that's good for

03:03:17.120 society and the men being the provider and the protector

03:03:19.560 and that the world itself or the the country itself is reflective of that i would

03:03:25.100 argue that that's actually reflective of the church it's church itself if you call

03:03:28.840 yourself a christian it's not only hierarchical but it's patriarchal

03:03:32.940 um i think ultimately feminism no matter how you cut it

03:03:37.620 the moment you apply it to society you're affirming the patriarchal role you're

03:03:44.480 actually saying women should have xyz and it's a request and a grievance and

03:03:49.680 you're making the grievance to a collective body of mostly men that are going to say

03:03:54.720 yes or no to it it's an allowance it's like the child in the room asking uh can

03:03:59.840 he can he finally come downstairs and play and the the leader of the house is

03:04:04.080 saying maybe uh they can go back on at any time for instance you can give women the

03:04:09.520 right to vote and you could also take it away so it's not something uh that that

03:04:14.980 can't be altered by men ultimately at any given point and so that points to a

03:04:21.000 major distinction between men and women ontologically their natures are

03:04:25.480 different they're driven towards different things and i i think a society

03:04:29.180 that acknowledges the difference between men and women is actually a society

03:04:33.100 that's better and more accurately describing reality

03:04:36.500 feminism doesn't describe reality accurately it actually argues with nature

03:04:42.740 itself it argues with descriptive reality and says can we change

03:04:46.100 descriptive reality and ultimately the answer is no um and then finally uh which

03:04:52.860 is uh the killer uh any any worldview that's uh counter to christianity is going

03:04:59.660 to have a massive problem with this particular category of attack duties and

03:05:06.000 obligations duties and obligations uh no matter how someone presents how eloquent

03:05:12.080 how complex they present their worldview when we ask a simple question do you have

03:05:17.260 any duty to xyz do we have any are there any duties or obligations at all

03:05:22.040 why should we follow this principle why should we do any of this they don't have

03:05:26.520 an answer uh they don't have an answer to this question they could make one up but

03:05:29.940 it's a set of preferences and so they're back to square one okay someone else

03:05:34.640 comes along with greater force and they're gonna they're gonna implement their set of

03:05:38.540 preferences and you really can't say shit especially as a woman and so um feminism

03:05:43.720 is a massive lie we didn't even get into the history of it um its beginnings and uh it

03:05:50.680 continues to be a lie and i think uh more and more women are waking up to the fact

03:05:55.240 that maybe they don't maybe they shouldn't uh spend their most fertile years chasing a name

03:06:01.160 tag and a lanyard uh acquiring debt uh acquiring rosters and uh and a long list of uh body counts

03:06:11.720 maybe the best thing for women maybe the best thing for women maybe the most feminist approach

03:06:18.240 you could possibly take for women is to be servants of the home servants of god servants to

03:06:25.260 their children and their husband all right thank you jim bob and then kyla give us your closing

03:06:31.200 statement please sure so um i'm not sure why but jim bob kind of did this interesting equivocation

03:06:38.500 where he uh talks about duties and obligations and compares it to things like where you're compelled

03:06:44.140 to do what you're required to do and there's consequences for not and he's muddying that with

03:06:49.920 another concept which would be like ought statements or prescriptions right and these are not the same

03:06:54.720 thing right there are certain behaviors that you're barred from doing but that doesn't mean that

03:06:58.360 there's other behaviors that you must do necessarily and so when he's talking about like

03:07:02.920 obligations from feminism he's saying that it doesn't have obligations but but it does if by

03:07:07.520 obligations you mean values and principles about how one should act right this idea as well that like

03:07:13.180 feminism doesn't have this like any level of like internal sophistication to create an internalized

03:07:18.820 definition is essentially flying in the face of how basically all of philosophy works

03:07:24.560 right this idea that feminism doesn't have a uniting front isn't really true nobody would

03:07:29.920 really agree that somebody who like wants to put women in dungeons and give them no rights is a

03:07:34.860 feminist right and even if that person said that they were a feminist it wouldn't be a live idea

03:07:39.660 because at the zeitgeist level societally we've broadly agreed that feminism has certain precepts that

03:07:45.540 we agree to but it's it's it's a non-institutional ideology ideology and so if if religion christianity

03:07:52.620 an institution that has pretty strict rigid standards by what you should and shouldn't believe

03:07:57.920 can have so many interpretations and heterogeneity and how that expresses and what

03:08:02.860 oughts they think you must do feminism is just similar in that it's an idea but it's it's even more

03:08:09.220 devoid of an institutional like structure but just because it lacks an institutional structure doesn't

03:08:14.160 make it just like this defunct idea this is obviously true right if feminism wasn't really real

03:08:19.840 then jim bob wouldn't have an issue with it if it didn't have some level of like pressing cohesion

03:08:24.160 to it then jim bob wouldn't see it as like a satanic thing of history right it's obviously something

03:08:29.520 even though the lines between what is and isn't feminism can be argued about how to define it

03:08:34.620 we don't have standards for things like kindness precisely we talk about it there's generally an

03:08:41.060 orientation towards what we think looks and feels like kindness but that doesn't mean that there's

03:08:45.440 like institutional standards by which we call this is kindness and this is not it's it's a very much

03:08:51.220 a dialogue which is what feminism is and i think that's part of what makes feminism cool right is

03:08:56.320 that's this idea that most people can self-select into and engage with and kind of make it their own

03:09:01.100 but there's obviously going to be people that are co-opting the label that don't have any orientations

03:09:06.580 that broadly would be towards feminism um just want to speak very briefly on debt probably important to

03:09:13.600 point out that probably the worst thing that has happened with like david ramsey and boomer money

03:09:19.180 is to make you think that debt is scary inherently it's not scary inherently in fact the richest people

03:09:25.120 on the planet have massive amounts of debt what's a problem with debt is unmanaged debt and having a

03:09:31.960 debt that is inflating and interest growing that is larger than your income right debt that gets away

03:09:37.040 from you but debt is one of the principles by which makes inflation uh fungible because it essentially

03:09:43.540 decreases value over time so anyone doing this like ooga booga about debt doesn't know really

03:09:49.720 what they're talking about jim bob is a really classic example of somebody who talks a lot really

03:09:54.260 confidently about things but doesn't really know what the fuck he's talking about the last time him

03:09:58.280 and i had a debate we talked about gdp and in the middle of the debate it got revealed that he doesn't

03:10:02.140 know what gdp is and he doesn't know why it even matters for a military which if you don't know

03:10:06.520 to have a military you have to have a competitive enough gdp that you can fund it so that neighboring

03:10:11.440 countries don't fucking stomp you that's why gdp matters right in the case of when we're talking

03:10:16.540 about governance and obligations he doesn't even know what the three branches our government are

03:10:20.380 and so it's like you should probably be cautious when listening to somebody when they're speaking

03:10:24.320 about governance or they're speaking about debt or they're speaking about the ways that we in which

03:10:27.940 we should organize ourselves when they don't even know like the basic precepts under which they live

03:10:32.200 right should probably know what the legislative branch is and what it does if you want to talk in any way

03:10:37.100 about like civil rights and obligations that we might have you should probably understand what the

03:10:41.080 executive branch does and the judicial branch if you want to cite the supreme court for your argument

03:10:45.540 it's probably important to do these things finally when we're talking about things like force versus

03:10:50.900 freedom these are tensions that go against each other force is something that we need you need a

03:10:56.000 military to stomp the bad guys you need to be able to like protect your sovereignty that's valuable

03:11:00.800 but we don't live for force we survive by force and we live for freedoms that's what we like

03:11:06.760 thrive and flourish with and feminism is much more preoccupied with the flourishing piece what are

03:11:12.620 pieces that we can give to women to help them flourish more and you might disagree you might not like the

03:11:18.440 idea that feeling that women need to flourish anymore and that's totally fine right but feminism doesn't

03:11:24.220 have to solve security it's not aiming to it's not a commentary on security in any ways and so when you

03:11:30.140 conflate these things arbitrarily all you're doing is making a false dichotomy because these two things have

03:11:35.540 nothing to do with one another if you want to like show up to debates you should probably know how

03:11:40.360 your government works you should probably understand how fallacies work and you should probably

03:11:44.320 understand how like economy basically works if you want to talk about any of these things in an

03:11:49.160 informed way okay thank you guys for your closing statements we do have some chats that are going

03:11:55.960 to come through though here towards the end oh speaking of which we're going to do a little a brief

03:12:01.700 row session 20 tts if you want to get a roast in here at the end vincent with the australian hundred

03:12:07.300 thank you for the soup chat man all the way from australia arrow don't you agree that marriage kids in

03:12:12.360 an army predominantly of men women predominantly women are predominantly are mothers and laws like

03:12:18.360 murder and stealing is pragmatic and christian first of all cute new nickname arrow like it

03:12:24.700 women predominantly are mothers and laws like murder and stealing is pragmatic and christian uh

03:12:32.200 god there's so much in there uh women being mothers is pragmatic and christian

03:12:37.800 it's not really pragmatic no one else can be mothers it's just like a biological necessity

03:12:44.640 i i don't know i don't know it's i don't know how to answer this all right uh there's a couple

03:12:49.680 stream labs message messages coming through but guys if you enjoyed the stream like the video please

03:12:53.900 and also if you guys join our discord discord.gg slash whatever get yourself some merch shop.whatever.com

03:12:59.600 also twitch.tv slash whatever guys i think i think our the prime subs are broken can somebody

03:13:05.540 test out a prime sub in the chat just see if you have a prime sub available just test it out in the

03:13:10.880 chat all right guys twenty dollar tts get them in we're going to get this wrapped up here shortly we

03:13:15.020 have the great jason cassell here one sec it's loading up here it is jason thank you man appreciate it

03:13:22.880 jason cassell donated sixty nine dollars cope harder maybe we should do a debate on

03:13:29.300 nicha's concepts of master morality slave morality and the will to power but since you already took

03:13:35.180 two big l's tonight i'll have mercy on you ah yes the big man saving the woman tell you what i stream

03:13:40.540 pretty regularly and i would love to debate you you can hop into my discord uh it's called the super

03:13:45.300 ego or you can just join me like on my stream not so erudite and you can debate me about nicha all

03:13:50.800 you'd like i would love to have a chance to fucking just take your little face and rub it in the shit

03:13:55.900 that you made oh dang okay and then make you smell it all right jason there you go the challenge has

03:14:02.740 been issued we have uh oh whoops intel wild donated twenty dollars not so bright have you ever hit

03:14:09.880 sexual relations with destiny no i'm married guys all right i'm not oh my god intel wild calm down

03:14:18.240 buddy calm down he sent another one intel wild donated twenty dollars not so like any adderall

03:14:24.500 going on these days uh i don't take adderall so uh red bull though he's obviously talking about the

03:14:31.540 things that the dutch do he loves me oh yeah you can have that word on screen yeah i should probably

03:14:37.180 oh that's fine i'll fix it um intel wild you need to send in a champagne pop for that man all right if

03:14:43.860 you guys want final call on the tts we're doing a twenty dollar uh tts roast if you want and it's

03:14:50.280 it's warm in here too so twenty dollar tts roast also guys we will be live tomorrow sunday 5 p.m pacific

03:14:58.120 kyla jim bob jay dyer will be joining us for a uh special dating talk episode that should certainly

03:15:06.060 be interesting got some other cool guests coming is that other person coming too other person that

03:15:11.440 we talked about i'll ask you later i don't want to name drop them if they canceled we'll talk we'll

03:15:16.940 talk after the uh show and let's see exciting uh no we might okay let's see if unless you know

03:15:25.580 they're not going to send it in i think uh come on to intel wild you know you know you want to say

03:15:30.100 one more and uh jim bob did you actually never mind never mind i like your shirt by the way you

03:15:39.460 made it yourself you made it yourself nice it's lovely well done thanks proud of you do you see

03:15:44.660 the back no i think you look at that guy wow that is that is something that's the neck beard

03:15:54.020 the neck beard yeah i should get one of those uh let's see okay twenty dollar tts this lighting is

03:16:00.520 not doing you justice jim bob you know what to say that shirt color is much nicer in person oh this

03:16:06.240 the yeah i agree well i think also this this monitor here that we have is not it's not what

03:16:11.600 they see yeah this isn't what they see it's probably a little oversaturated here uh yeah it's

03:16:18.000 because it's a tv monitor versus a computer monitor so it's a little bit a little different

03:16:23.400 let me see if oh we have wait oh my goodness okay i sure won all over intel wild donated twenty

03:16:32.080 dollars not so dyke why do you continue to support destiny after he does such horrible things to young

03:16:38.940 women uh the same reason that you insist on sending in tts's uh to uh masturbate to jason castle donated

03:16:47.060 sixty nine dollars thank you jason appreciate it you couldn't do that you are a woman and i'm a man

03:16:52.400 you couldn't rub my face into anything you are too weak dummy yeah it's debating doesn't mean i can

03:17:00.240 touch you so i don't know if you know how discord works but it would be like a voice call so obviously

03:17:04.780 when i'm saying i'll rub your face in your shit it's a euphemism right um just to help you out jason

03:17:09.960 yeah all right thank you jason for that we have alibur donated twenty dollars alibur erudite aren't you

03:17:17.260 in an open marriage and christian i am not in an open marriage but it is one of the favorite lies

03:17:23.540 that people who don't like me like to spread all right we have tess tess tesseract donated twenty

03:17:30.460 dollars since every law enforces someone's morality whose standard will a neutral state adopt god's

03:17:37.540 revealed law or autonomous man's isn't so-called neutrality just a secular theocracy in disguise

03:17:44.320 uh the standard that the law will follow will be like the collective agreement about what is good

03:17:51.580 within society typically okay we have pasty george thank you pasty pasty george donated twenty

03:17:59.280 dollars brian when will you add a champagne option for an individual and not the whole panel oh so one

03:18:05.800 individual person has to drink the entire champagne bottle it's probably a little dangerous uh i don't

03:18:11.740 i don't know uh pro uh you know what we'll do tomorrow we'll do it tomorrow just for you pasty

03:18:19.060 george but here's the deal if we do tomorrow uh you have to send in the champagne pop tomorrow pasty

03:18:24.840 george and uh yes okay we have jb thank you man jb beltier donated twenty dollars she got bodied by a

03:18:33.620 smart man with one quarter of her education because the disagreement is on a rational and objective basis

03:18:39.900 she relies on derailing into particulars to deliberately miss the point okay jb appreciate

03:18:46.540 it we have knaves donated twenty dollars thank you man w jim bob w andrew w brian thank you man

03:18:54.860 appreciate the support thank you for the kind words uh okay well it's coming through all right

03:18:59.900 whatever i can't christopher murphy thank you it's coming in thank you christopher murphy donated fifty

03:19:05.860 dollars wait you never sucked the crew mcgremlins d how do you have a platform uh nope uh it seems

03:19:13.540 like people like to listen to me for my own ideas okay all right christopher murphy appreciate that we

03:19:19.140 have billy bob here billy bob donated twenty dollars why does erudite always make a face like she's

03:19:26.100 thinking so hard to answer a question and then ends up saying the most incoherent statement in history

03:19:31.860 jim bob did an amazing job today thank you billy bob billy bob must be really tough keeping up

03:19:40.340 billy bob that's okay not reading literacy isn't for everyone so oh we got he's jason castle donated

03:19:47.220 twenty dollars i will literally fight you dummy i've already invited you onto my discord you can come on

03:19:53.220 stream anytime buddy all right we got riz here thank you jason for that one he will literally

03:19:59.860 fight a woman okay yeah donated twenty dollars so everyone knows gdp stands for gaslight deny

03:20:06.740 patriarchy waymans am i right good one wow oh okay there you go women's women's jason castle

03:20:14.580 very chivalrous of you thank you thank you sons of liberty coming in thank you man

03:20:17.940 of liberty donated 19 dollars and 99 cents appreciate it i believe liberals are the

03:20:23.460 greatest threat to our republic and hope they all get deported to el salvador crazy with that said

03:20:29.300 jim bob please tell me it was a brain it was about our three branches it was admittedly terrible

03:20:35.380 brain fart but and about gdp before no i definitely said and about science no i no you you missed the

03:20:43.060 science one i definitely got gross domestic product or applied sciences no i you didn't

03:20:48.260 and you got gross domestic product after no i didn't what's his face handsome guy jake helped

03:20:52.820 no i said it i did say you could review it okay um also uh to respond to that guy um

03:21:00.100 fuck what did he say before then ah whatever about liberals are the greatest threat oh yeah it's

03:21:06.180 super funny to me when like uh constitutional republicans are like also let's break the constitution

03:21:12.020 it's just like you kind of got to pick one if you're an american and you love your constitution

03:21:16.180 probably follow it and due process it's part of your constitution unfortunately yeah got intel wild

03:21:22.340 intel wild to make you thank you great show thanks brian and jim bob appreciate it i'll champagne pop

03:21:30.100 tomorrow that's very nice thank you man appreciate it thank you thank you thank you all right guys uh

03:21:34.580 we'll do last call if anybody wants to get one in final call final call give you guys a couple uh

03:21:39.300 two or three minutes if you want to get the final one in gonna get this wrapped here appreciate it

03:21:43.620 thank you guys uh final things here guys if you do want to support the show without these platforms

03:21:48.740 taking their cup venmo cash app it's whatever pod like the video please here at the end of the show

03:21:53.380 if you enjoyed the stream twitch.tv slash whatever drops a follow on the prime sub discord.gg slash

03:21:57.700 whatever be sure to join up the discord and shop.whatever.com you can join some get some merch

03:22:02.740 20 tts final call on that but we'll just leave it on like the video please we have i oh we got

03:22:10.340 jason coming in one more jason castle donated 20 dollars no dummy i will literally physically fight

03:22:17.540 you let that thing go how do you guys feel about men who want to domestically assault women you know

03:22:22.740 before i answer that i just want to say the last time you were on the show back like a year and a half

03:22:28.020 ago or something two years ago something like that that was like a year was it a year ago a year and

03:22:33.700 a half i think year and a half ago um she actually i saw her on the street beat up a man so you did it

03:22:42.020 had she beat up out here yep what what did he do he spoke in spanish i think that upset that was it

03:22:49.620 he deserved it just gotta say well you get a lot of challenges i challenged you on the online debate to

03:22:54.340 a physical fight jason here is challenging you but you might have a whole youtube channel that dude

03:22:59.860 she like it was like this it was like yeah we will both mash you i didn't say that though she didn't

03:23:05.060 say that word but i'm a good girl but he was black no it was oh well i i'm not sure to be honest why

03:23:11.940 why how did this happen just a quick summary i'll have to tell you after okay yeah we i'm under

03:23:17.860 an nda still statute of limitations all right jay nico thank you man appreciate it zero four donated

03:23:25.940 twenty dollars missed the entire spurgfist i mean debate just wanted to show support and say glad

03:23:33.300 to see you're feeling better brian glad to see you in person jim bob thank you uh jay nico really good

03:23:40.900 to see you in the chat man it's been a minute thank you thank you for your support id bro donated thirty

03:23:45.460 dollars judaism was patrilineal until the time of herod then they switched to matrilineal scarlet

03:23:51.540 monastery is of the ot is not the same yes it is true yeah this is a wow like armory yeah scarlet

03:24:00.020 armory yeah all right crazy thinking i know wow i appreciate it uh we got this one from realizer

03:24:05.780 network realize the network donated 19 dollars and 99 cents radical orthodoxy is just some john

03:24:12.980 millbank bullshit it's not orthodoxy it's not protestantism it's just heresy you give christians

03:24:19.060 a bad name simp husband w jim bob w j dyer w whatever okay thank you i don't know if somebody can be a

03:24:27.060 simp if they're i have a really quick question about that do you are you firm enough in what you call

03:24:34.180 orthodox protestantism where you debate that against another theological in general i think i think talking

03:24:40.900 about religion from a theological standpoint that puts any onus spiritual leadership on you is

03:24:46.100 extremely it's something that you should do with extreme caution um and i'm not a spiritual leader

03:24:52.180 i'm not like a pastor and i'm not ordained to so i more or less usually won't because i think

03:24:58.580 yeah i just think it's dangerous it's it's a theological conclusion that i've arrived at but i

03:25:03.380 would never be so is there like a main apologist who does though that you know um there's a few there's

03:25:10.020 probably not one that i could like name off the top of my head right now but there's a few it's

03:25:13.780 started i think in like okay i think the 50s yeah i just wanted to see if there's anyone so we can

03:25:18.580 organize this destruction okay got pasty george donated 20 appreciate it jim bob andrew rachel and

03:25:28.100 sometimes brian argue calmly and coherently not so erudite gets frustrated when she thinks she can't

03:25:35.060 win an argument in fact a valid argument is not about winning thank you for that pasty george thank

03:25:42.100 you appreciate the message got hearticus thank you hearticus donated 20 dollars erudite if men have

03:25:48.820 all of the force why the heck should we even listen to what weak feminists have to say what's the ought

03:25:55.300 uh because might doesn't make right and you should care about people for more than just whether or not

03:25:59.060 they can beat you up to force you to listen to them like obviously we're not barbarians guys well let me

03:26:03.700 just push back really quick if the men listen to you the and and they applied your policy then might

03:26:11.380 would actually make right in that instance because it would require some force to give you your

03:26:16.500 advantageous policy i don't think like respecting women or like uh allowing them to like make choices

03:26:21.540 for their own is like something that you need to use so just just so we're clear might is right

03:26:26.900 when it affirms feminism no i've never said that might makes right is might correct when it defends

03:26:33.620 feminism uh sometimes there's a lot of feminist policies that's so you do so you do need might

03:26:40.500 it's not entirely i mean i need the authority of the government again we can like go down this

03:26:45.620 diatribe but again muscles no okay all right well i think uh that's it if there's any that come through

03:26:51.780 here just in these final seconds i'll be i'll try to get it otherwise we'll trigger it tomorrow uh big

03:26:56.500 thank you to jim bob thank you to kyla appreciate it guys it was a very interesting uh debate so thank

03:27:02.420 you guys for coming guys will we we will be live again tomorrow sunday 5 p.m pacific with a dating

03:27:10.500 talk episode it's going to be kind of a super panel almost because we got jim bob we got jay dyer we got

03:27:15.780 kyla so be sure to tune in for that and then this coming week i believe starting on thursday we have

03:27:21.780 uh we got like a couple days back to back in a row some debates and then of course our dating our

03:27:28.180 regular dating talks on sundays the uh got andrew wilson in person coming so be sure to uh tune in

03:27:36.500 for that that should be pretty pretty cool so uh oh we got all right this should be the final one

03:27:41.940 then we'll get christopher murphy donated twenty dollars saw andrew on crowder and he gave you a

03:27:47.460 shout out as well as your podcast i hope to you on crowder in the future nse it's not the authority

03:27:54.420 of men that drive society it's the force doctrine christopher thank you man i did see that he was on

03:27:59.780 crowder i watched i think like the first hour of it but before it went behind the paywall yeah it'd be

03:28:05.300 great to have a crowder on the uh that'd be cool to get crowder on the show um did you want to respond

03:28:09.780 to this or uh i'm just so tired of like fat fucking loser men stealing valor from policemen and

03:28:14.980 soldiers it's like the most boring uninteresting argument to be like see we're better than women

03:28:20.660 it's like you need them too you fat loser anorexic though is it i have a feeling that your super

03:28:26.340 chatters are not the uh skinny or bodacious type okay hey listen i i i've actually uh sent them uh a

03:28:34.740 pamphlet asking them to let me know their weight their height weight their bmi and they're actually

03:28:39.620 pretty trim they're pretty trim the most buff audience they're very ripped peak male performance

03:28:45.620 is my audience i take it back you know what christopher based you're you're a king actually

03:28:50.980 he he he definitely is so okay all right there it is folks uh oh sevens oh sevens in the chat

03:28:56.820 guys if you enjoyed the stream we'll see you guys tomorrow good night guys

1v1 DEBATE： Jimbob vs. NotSoErudite -- Feminism Debate ｜ Whatever Debates #16

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