Whatever Podcast

00:00:00.000 welcome to a special debate edition of the whatever podcast we're coming to you live

00:00:20.140 from santa barbara california i'm your host and moderator brian atlas a few quick announcements

00:00:25.400 before the show begins this podcast is viewer supported heavy youtube demonetization so please

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00:00:54.300 right now you can pull up another tab go to twitch.tv slash whatever drop us a follow and a

00:00:59.980 prime sub if you have one without further ado i'm going to introduce our two debaters i'm joined today

00:01:05.520 by jim bob he is a political commentator and a political cartoonist for the washington examiner

00:01:12.560 also joining us today is oliver niehaus he is about to graduate from oberlin college he's triple

00:01:19.280 majoring in political science philosophy and legal studies he plans to attend law school after

00:01:24.680 graduation he's also a political commentator and content creator the debate topic for today is

00:01:31.740 is feminism good for society each of the debaters will have a five minute opening statement and then

00:01:39.220 the rest of the show will be open conversation and there will be some breaks for messages from the

00:01:45.020 audience oliver you get the opening statement so go ahead awesome well thank you very much brian for

00:01:50.760 having me on the show and thank you jim bob for being here and agreeing to have this debate i look

00:01:54.260 forward to having a productive exchange of ideas um so the resolution we're debating as brian

00:01:58.740 mentioned was um is feminism good for society and i'll be arguing in the affirmative that yes feminism

00:02:03.660 has been good for society and will continue to be good for society before we dive in i think it's

00:02:08.840 important to clarify how we're defining feminism or how i'm defining feminism in this debate since

00:02:13.440 definitions matter in any productive conversation to ensure we're not talking past one another the

00:02:18.320 version of feminism i'll be defending is the belief that individuals should have the same rights

00:02:22.460 opportunities and basic respect and should be given equal opportunities to succeed and not be

00:02:28.060 prevented from doing so on the basis of their sex or gender now notice what this definition does not

00:02:33.260 say it doesn't claim that there must be equal outcomes in every field one common straw man of

00:02:38.080 feminism is that feminism demands strict 50 50 representation in every field plumbers electricians

00:02:44.740 bricklayers garbage collectors doctors members of congress and so on that's not what i'm arguing

00:02:50.040 for and that's not really what any feminist is really arguing for feminism doesn't seek to erase all

00:02:54.880 difference and disparities but what it does seek to do is remove the unjust barriers that often prevent

00:03:00.220 women from entering or advancing in certain fields due to bias discrimination or certain expectations

00:03:05.440 of what a man or woman's proper role is another term worth defining because i think it's going to come

00:03:10.120 up a decent amount is patriarchy patriarchy is typically understood as a system that advantages

00:03:14.580 men over women granting them primary power across nearly all domains of society so political leadership

00:03:20.520 moral authority even epistemic authority the idea that a man's knowledge or judgment should be

00:03:25.360 inherently trusted more and control over things like property and wealth as with feminism there are many

00:03:30.600 straw man arguments surrounding patriarchy so let me address a common one some argue that if

00:03:34.480 men are suffering whether it's because they dominate in dangerous jobs or are more likely to be

00:03:39.220 victims of violent crime or of higher suicide rates just to name a few examples then patriarchy must not

00:03:44.400 exist but this misunderstands what patriarchy means the existence of male suffering does not disprove

00:03:50.040 patriarchy because patriarchy refers to who holds power not who experiences hardship while men are

00:03:55.640 absolutely harmed by many aspects of the patriarchal system the people in positions of authority and control

00:04:01.060 remain overwhelmingly male so yes patriarchy can and does harm men as well but it systematically privileges

00:04:07.400 men in ways that it does not for women i have several concrete examples of how our society functions in a

00:04:12.280 patriotic way or patriotic patriarchal way and i'm happy to share those if needed but from what i understand of

00:04:17.940 jim bob's previously articulated positions although maybe that's not what we're operating under he doesn't deny that

00:04:22.640 patriarchy exists in fact he appears to embrace it as a good and natural thing so at least for the purpose of this

00:04:27.640 debate it seems unnecessary to spend time proving that patriarchy exists so we can instead move on to

00:04:32.220 a more substantive question which is rather should it exist um so and this is going to be the claim of

00:04:38.540 this debate i think largely is whether patriarchy should exist in some capacity um something i've seen

00:04:43.500 jim bob do in previous debates is embrace what i view to be another straw man of patriarchy when which

00:04:48.900 it defines and he defines it narrowly as the idea that men serve as the enforcement arm of society that

00:04:54.820 only men can uphold law and order and because they are on average physically better equipped for

00:04:59.940 physical enforcement they must have this authority but this view is not only reductive it's historically

00:05:05.620 and sociologically incoherent patriarchy is not simply who can win in a fist fight it's about who

00:05:11.140 writes the laws sets the norms controls the institutions and decides whose voices are taken

00:05:15.940 seriously reducing patriarchy to brute strength is like explaining corporate power by saying ceos have

00:05:21.480 authority over their companies because they can beat up the interns in reality power is much more

00:05:27.220 upheld by um it's upheld by much more than muscle it's reinforced through tradition ideology religion

00:05:34.980 economic control and legal structures the forced doctrine idea here strips patriarchy of its complexity

00:05:40.960 and reimagines it as this caveman logic of might makes right which is not only inaccurate but pretty

00:05:46.760 intellectually lazy the major point i want to make in my opening is this you're going to hear a lot of

00:05:52.420 claims made from jim bob about how feminism has supposedly led to a wide array of disastrous

00:05:57.320 outcomes declining birth rates labor market saturation and wage wage stagnation rising divorce rates initiated

00:06:04.280 by women and much more for every claim he makes i urge you to ask has he actually demonstrated that

00:06:10.280 feminism caused these outcomes or have they merely occurred alongside the rise of feminism because one of the

00:06:16.720 most common fallacies i see from anti-feminists is treating correlation as causation yes feminism has grown

00:06:22.660 so is the gap between the rich and poor yes feminism has grown and the birth rate has declined but that's not

00:06:28.480 evidence of causation to those who accept that line of reasoning i'll remind you that there's a strong

00:06:32.480 correlation between per capita margarine consumption and the divorce rate in maine or between the number of

00:06:37.840 nicholas cage films released in a given year and the number of accidental drownings in swimming pools my

00:06:43.040 point is this the burden is on jim bob to prove that feminism caused these trends not merely that they

00:06:48.340 happened alongside one another and i will argue against this that these societal shifts are a result

00:06:53.500 of broader economic cultural and technological forces that are caused by a combination of many

00:06:58.940 other factors but feminism is not one of them i won't just refute jim bob's claims feminism has been

00:07:05.420 an overall net negative for society i will also affirmatively make the case that feminism has been a force

00:07:10.300 for tremendous good higher gdp in countries that have greater labor force population driven in large part by

00:07:16.020 expanded opportunities for women which can be directly linked to more people using their talents to contribute to the

00:07:21.420 economy and society countries like norway sweden and finland which have fostered more egalitarian systems and

00:07:27.240 removed many barriers women face in both work and public life consistently show higher levels of prosperity and

00:07:32.800 innovation and we see similar gains in productivity output numerous studies have shown that gender diverse teams perform

00:07:38.300 better a princeton university study examining over six million research papers found teams that

00:07:44.020 composed of both men and women produced more novel and influential work specifically mixed gender teams or nearly 10% more likely to publish novel research and over 30% more likely to be highly cited compared to single gender teams

00:07:57.020 and that's not just this you know feel good rhetoric about diversity it's measurable concrete benefits

00:08:02.740 of greater gender inclusion in the sciences and society at large i'll wrap it up here as i'm sure we'll explore many of these specifics further as the debate progressives

00:08:11.020 but i will as i will continue to demonstrate the case is abundantly clear feminism has has had a profoundly positive impact on society

00:08:18.740 and we must push back firmly and unapologetically against those who seek to drag us backwards thank you

00:08:25.460 all right jim bob all right all right go with your open thank you so much all right the debate is is feminism good for society

00:08:34.380 uh oliver defined feminism as individuals having the same rights equal opportunities in the world

00:08:40.960 uh so on and so forth um i would argue that society we have to define society real quick society is an

00:08:48.360 aggregate of people living in an ordered uh system an ordered community i want to focus on that word

00:08:54.540 ordered for a second because without any order uh without any force without any threat of force

00:09:00.600 you really don't have a society so when when oliver says equal rights equal this equal that well

00:09:06.420 it's descriptively the case that it's not equal because women uh regardless of how much they want

00:09:13.080 inequality it's always enforced by men which is an inequality so there's an irony there that

00:09:18.780 feminism fights for equality but relies on inequality um so looking at some key components of what makes a

00:09:26.440 society uh if you argue a society is good because of this reason it needs these components law and order is

00:09:32.760 one of the components which i can't stress enough um without it you have nothing uh if you don't if he

00:09:39.480 assumes rights that assumes law if you assume law that assumes force so when oliver says he reduces it

00:09:46.320 to force everything oliver listed in his opening whether or not you thought it sounded good the only thing

00:09:52.880 that's operating ultimately is force if men decide not to give those things to women they can do that

00:09:59.600 if men decide to give those things to women they can do that essentially feminism is a set of

00:10:05.800 grievances and requests a lot like a child in the room asking for more toys and then arguing for equality

00:10:12.500 and calling uh the moment where the dad gives them the toys they call that equality it's pretty much like

00:10:18.040 a larp um obligations and duties is a key one oliver even uh in his uh counter to my reduction of the

00:10:25.820 force doctrine he included something called traditions right well uh obligations and duties

00:10:31.580 is not something that feminism can provide at all um feminism just has this major assumption of

00:10:37.480 equality that is in fact an outcome um so there is no equality of opportunity even among men so why

00:10:44.460 would there be equality of opportunity among men and women obligations and duties is a key feature

00:10:49.640 because the vision that oliver has and many feminists have for society they have a vision

00:10:55.400 that the world's a certain way where women and men are doing all of these things together but the

00:11:00.540 reality is the operation of the world the society itself including the hardest manual labor jobs which

00:11:06.460 he listed uh building bridges tunnels uh managing the sewer system suddenly the feminist assumes that the

00:11:14.100 men have a an obligation to keep these things going let's say the men decided to stop all of

00:11:19.560 that work for a second they actually do it during strikes that's leverage right so the men actually

00:11:24.820 descriptively do have the power i am not a one of those oppositional uh people to feminism arguing that

00:11:31.880 the patriarchy doesn't exist the patriarchy does exist because it's descript it's descriptive of reality

00:11:37.580 it can't not exist uh in other words for feminism to do what it wants to do it actually appeals to the

00:11:44.760 patriarchy it doesn't negate it so for instance if feminism is a movement away from men in power

00:11:51.400 let's say power is this this is men and women are here the idea is that we lower the men's power or we

00:11:59.620 elevate the women's power the problem is it's a request it's a request so if feminism is a movement

00:12:05.300 away from the men in power and women's rights let's say is a feminist movement why is it the case that

00:12:12.620 women don't give themselves the rights it's men who give them the rights so if everything they're

00:12:18.640 asking for under this feminist movement is a request from the power they're actually affirming

00:12:24.640 the patriarchy um so that that's a good question for oliver to ask uh answer uh during the back and

00:12:30.720 forth why don't women just give themselves the rights why don't they just give it to themselves well

00:12:34.840 because they can't because collectively women can't uh take rights and they can't protect their own

00:12:40.320 rights but yet in the same breath they're they're demanding these rights but they have no obligation

00:12:45.320 that's not equality so if feminism is about equality i'm pointing out one very uh important aspect of

00:12:52.400 society where equality can't possibly exist nor would i want it to exist i what i want the men in

00:12:58.860 power and if you press uh especially women you'll see on this podcast a lot of times when you press them

00:13:04.160 on this issue they actually concede that they'd rather have men in these power positions keeping society

00:13:09.600 going uh i want to go back to leverage for a second um what does the woman have for leverage for

00:13:16.940 instance let's look at voting for a second so when men collectively vote they're basically saying

00:13:23.100 something they're saying i'm not going to group up with other men and overthrow the government

00:13:28.340 they're basically communicating i'm forfeiting my will to gather other like-minded men get our guns

00:13:36.480 and throw a rebellion in exchange i'm going to vote well when a woman votes what are they leveraging

00:13:42.520 what are they exchanging there's nothing on the table for them to exchange i would argue the the

00:13:47.880 only leverage women actually have in a society is their chastity is their ability to have children

00:13:54.120 which is an extreme value i would argue it's one of the most valuable things women could uh appeal to

00:14:01.240 in their in their political exchanges uh which leads me to the third part people you need people

00:14:07.240 for a society yes uh reducing birth rates is a very uh important topic whether you blame it on

00:14:14.300 feminism or anything else it's right in front of us so the question i would have if feminism was good

00:14:19.820 for society how is it that feminism doesn't advocate for children for women to be mothers for

00:14:25.580 for women to be in the home raising the next generation of children after all a society is

00:14:31.180 made of people and what good is a good society if it doesn't have good people so the question

00:14:36.740 tonight um is for for oliver to confront these fundamental issues the core issues and i would

00:14:43.880 argue that there's feminism is essentially in a kind of a performative contradiction it says in one

00:14:49.860 hand that they want equality right but they have no obligations they say they say in the same sentence

00:14:56.680 that they want rights but they have no obligation or ability to even defend their rights so to claim

00:15:02.280 you want these things and this is fair you're already smuggling in that there there is a group of men

00:15:07.720 who have to or should be obligated to protect you defend you so i'd ask oliver uh you know it'll come

00:15:14.920 up tonight do men have an obligation to protect women do men have an obligation to enforce law do

00:15:22.160 men have an obligation to fight even in wars to defend so-called rights well the same obligation

00:15:28.660 can't be made for women because they're collectively incapable which is why you'll never see in the

00:15:33.980 history of humanity a time where women gave themselves the rights if they could have given

00:15:39.200 themselves the rights they wouldn't be asking the patriarchy to do it um so yes i affirm the

00:15:44.360 patriarchy of course but the question isn't whether a patriarchy is good for society because

00:15:49.000 societies can't exist without the patriarchy it's a necessary argument whereas uh oliver is tasked

00:15:55.640 tonight to tell us me and you and brian and everyone watching why is feminism good for society i would say

00:16:02.720 it's overall not good for society for a variety of reasons one of which is the messaging for feminism

00:16:09.360 has largely been uh sexual liberation for women women acting more like shitty men honestly like

00:16:16.680 that that's liberating um promiscuity um that that's some sort of liberation policy for for feminism

00:16:23.580 they're right about one thing though their leverage is sex their leverage is birth the the ability to

00:16:30.980 give birth and be be a mother the problem with feminism is that it's inverted the power that women

00:16:36.960 have their sexuality their womb it's inverted it and used uh convinced them to use that advantage

00:16:44.220 against themselves and we're looking at it you know women are more in debt was it a good thing to

00:16:49.720 shove all the women to the workforce you think you're empowered until you're 40 and and you have

00:16:54.860 three cats and wine stained teeth and you have no husband or children or legacy and then you're you're

00:16:59.820 dying to be invited to a wedding so you can talk to some groomsmen this is not empowering we have to

00:17:05.520 reverse this we have to reverse it soon it's not just a an issue of societal collapse but it's a it's

00:17:12.700 a it's an issue of morality as well which i hope we get into of course yeah absolutely okay well open

00:17:19.280 conversation now yeah just open conversation so i'll just go ahead absolutely i'd love to kind of get

00:17:24.520 into this idea of the forced doctrine i want to like just kind of make sure we have a mutual

00:17:28.800 understanding there so is your view that um that the forced doctrine is the idea that the

00:17:33.180 patriarchy itself is inevitable because because men possess greater physical strength generally

00:17:38.420 than women that they can at any time impose their will upon women yes they can oppose their will on

00:17:44.440 women and men sure okay so i guess i'm wondering even if we grant you know this idea that men are

00:17:50.340 stronger than women generally um does like potential equate to actual like do you think that that is kind

00:17:56.260 of a general like idea that we can operate off of like what could be the case is what should define

00:18:00.940 well things are right now i would use more of like induction it's always been the case and it seems to

00:18:06.240 be always the case similar to the sun rising okay um that men overall are going to be the ones

00:18:13.280 enforcing and defending um offending defending and there's never been a case where women actually grant

00:18:21.360 themselves the so-called rights that they're asking for or take those rights so it goes both ways men can

00:18:27.480 activate their force take things from people men could activate their force and defend that people

00:18:33.620 have things too now feminism is the latter so the question is can women collectively overtake

00:18:40.980 the patriarchy i mean i think they technically could i mean so i think when we're talking about what

00:18:46.220 could happen we're talking about hypothetical things so the entirety of men i don't think will ever

00:18:52.640 agree on like enslaving women just like every single person there's always going to be some men

00:18:58.000 that oppose them of course there's going to be you know maybe those men might win out in certain

00:19:01.500 scenarios but there's always going to be some men that are against them so we're never going to have

00:19:04.880 a situation where all men are trying to enslave women so when i'm thinking about this and i thought

00:19:09.440 about this hypothetical and i think it was brought up on a previous podcast episode women could

00:19:13.080 hypothetically um as you talked about leverage the fact that they give birth and either kill

00:19:17.400 themselves or kill their male offspring and if they did that and if they collectively did that

00:19:22.900 then they would have that power right well leverage that if if they can do that men could hypothetically

00:19:28.800 counter that by using force to stop that from happening right i'm not sure i you know i i think that if

00:19:34.960 people want to end and end a pregnancy if people want to end their own lives they're very determined

00:19:38.780 to do that and i would be yeah but i don't i don't but if it came down to force right well if it came

00:19:44.760 down to force sorry if it came down to force the woman would have a tougher the collection of women

00:19:50.520 who you convince to uh you know work against their own existence and their children's existence which

00:19:55.680 is pretty close to feminism already um men could actually step in right and and and reverse that

00:20:02.400 for instance uh you know abortion is a perfect example of it women are fighting for the right to

00:20:09.060 terminate their own children right legally safely is that a good thing i mean not in my view yeah i'm

00:20:13.760 pro-choice okay so it's already a good thing so your hypothetical was well there could be a moment

00:20:18.600 where women start terminating their own children i'm saying they're already doing that in the

00:20:23.060 millions wait no no they do they do that legally but what happens when abortion is illegal what's

00:20:27.820 legal though no no no but that that that goes to my point however what does what is legal assume

00:20:33.060 though well that it is permitted by society and permitted and if it wasn't permitted women would do it

00:20:39.520 anyway so hold on a second no no that's not that's not the point the point is when you say legal

00:20:44.080 yeah you're appealing to force doctrine i'm not i'm not denying that there is some role of enforcement

00:20:49.980 in society nothing anything legal assumes the patriarchy so that's the this is what i'm this is

00:20:56.140 what in my opening statement oliver i want you to get is anything you think is good for women

00:21:00.140 as a permission of behavior is going to be permitted and allowed by a collection of men with guns sure

00:21:07.700 so my question would be because you're defining patriarchy as the that is the fact that men will

00:21:13.440 always need to enforce things that men always need to i think that is a poor definition of patriarchy

00:21:19.120 because what else would it be though okay well i i kind of gave a a definition at the beginning here

00:21:24.020 this idea that is a general um general idea that men hold more societal institutional power

00:21:31.260 things of that nature then they they write the laws they create the norms and the systems that goes

00:21:36.380 beyond just mere brute force it it really is because think think about this why don't the workers of a

00:21:42.780 company just on a whim all the time overthrow the ceo because it's illegal because of men well sure but

00:21:50.000 they could if every single or do you think there are more people technically of the working

00:21:53.760 class that if they got together they could overthrow the ceo if there was no uh legality to it like

00:22:00.820 when you say ceo and company hold on hold on when you say ceo and company you're already assuming law

00:22:05.940 again so you're using these terms i'm just talking about your head i know but oliver you're using terms

00:22:10.280 and distinctions that are that necessitate that law already exists right that the force application

00:22:16.300 already exists i'm arguing from your from your perspective it's better for you to say

00:22:20.980 the patriarchy is good for feminism why because whatever you call feminism requires the patriarchy

00:22:28.160 so this would be an argument that's equivalent to saying like having a like militaristic authoritarian

00:22:33.960 government we have one is good for democracy uh well no that's that that's a good thing well no

00:22:39.900 democracy democracy is democracy itself actually could produce authoritative government no no it can i'm

00:22:46.920 correct but would you say that because it is technically possible for the military to overtake

00:22:51.800 the democratic government that democracy itself doesn't exist no i'm saying democracy itself requires

00:22:58.160 the force sure but the will people voting doesn't actually matter it's here i'll ask it a different

00:23:03.960 way can you give me a hypothetical of where a kind of feminism could exist in the vision you have but

00:23:10.640 doesn't require the collective of men using force to protect it um i think there could be examples

00:23:17.320 where women have superior technology we're the ones that they're able to you know if they have a

00:23:22.720 majority of the weapons we can imagine this who builds weapons i mean mostly why does it matter who

00:23:27.860 necessarily because i just hold on it matters oliver because i asked you can you give me a hypothetical

00:23:32.820 where women could express their feminism and exist in a feminist society or whatever you are envisioning

00:23:38.980 without the the men the men are building these weapons because the men have always built the

00:23:44.820 weapons no because no yes no it's not because you're appealing to the past to justify what's

00:23:49.040 happening do you own a weapon what do you own a weapon i like a firearm okay yeah no i don't okay

00:23:53.820 okay so larger weaponry even a firearm uh the majority a a large portion of women can't even cock a gun

00:24:02.440 they can't clean a gun they can't hold on they can't break hold on they can't break down a gun

00:24:07.020 okay and they can't carry larger equipment so if you're arguing that the great equalizer is military

00:24:13.740 equipment from small to large that takes brute strength not only to make but to maintain and to

00:24:20.020 transport and you're basically granting yourself that you're just saying like look santa came it

00:24:25.680 wasn't the men who actually engineered and and move these large things around for us to use right

00:24:31.400 uh remote control bombing and whatnot all these missile silos and whatnot this requires massive amount

00:24:36.980 of brute strength right you're just granting yourself the fruits of the brute strength in

00:24:42.660 the hypothetical and saying well it could be the case that women could just find a pile of missiles

00:24:47.600 in the woods and then it's the great equalizer that's not the argument i'm saying without men

00:24:52.560 how what does a woman what does a collection of women do to sustain their what does a collection of

00:24:59.760 weaker men do without stronger men no that's i'm arguing for the stronger men okay so then your

00:25:05.580 argument is basically that whoever is the strongest man out there who whoever has the most brute power

00:25:11.700 right there they are the ones who dictate society dictate society that's right so you are grateful

00:25:17.680 then to men who are stronger than you yes you are grateful to men that are stronger than you for

00:25:22.500 enforcing it so why should you necessarily have rights i don't believe in rights okay i mean so why

00:25:29.220 then why should your because to vote be protected why should i don't believe in vote i don't think i

00:25:33.640 don't think i should vote necessarily but certainly not women because if you remember in my opener

00:25:37.800 would you agree that when a collective of uh very strong men stronger than me and you right the big the

00:25:43.180 big burly ones with the cross-eyed right if they don't vote would you agree that the alternative to

00:25:49.920 voting would be just a rebellion or brute force if they didn't agree with the government the government

00:25:54.400 i mean i think it still is they can vote and they can still use brute force i'm saying i'm not saying

00:25:58.640 i'm saying that when i'm not saying they could vote i'm not saying they can't vote and then suddenly

00:26:03.740 be like you know what i know i voted but i'm going to still do this i'm saying generally speaking the

00:26:08.540 act of voting for men collectively aren't they saying i'm not going to rebel i don't think they're

00:26:15.320 necessarily saying they're not going to rebel they're saying that i would prefer not to i think

00:26:19.540 i think i can get what i want by not using fair enough i'll grant you that it's just that if they

00:26:24.880 prefer not to i'm saying that the alternative is that they could right sure okay women if you switch

00:26:31.440 it over to women if women's they all start voting right what are they forfeiting what do you mean

00:26:38.040 what are they forfeiting if the man is forfeiting i don't think he is he is he's basically saying

00:26:43.200 i'm going to vote and i'm going to hope that the outsourced uh force application uh which is the

00:26:50.340 military and the justice system and everything else included right they're outsourcing their

00:26:54.280 brute force now if they disagree and they decide voting isn't for you anymore and you're going to

00:26:59.900 start a rebellion they could do that what i'm asking you oliver is can women do that i don't

00:27:05.740 necessarily think that i don't like most women can but i don't think most men can either i don't

00:27:10.460 think most men can it's not about what you're what you're doing is you're ascribing the quality

00:27:14.440 of brute force to all men no i'm not they're a member of the category of male no it's um i am

00:27:19.660 actually appealing to categories i'm saying i just when it comes to categories right it's like saying

00:27:24.300 this like are you in a category of of beings that can think and do logic yeah can all human beings do

00:27:32.000 logic not necessarily no but i'm appealing i'm appealing to to the ones that can are in a certain

00:27:37.740 category what i'm saying is that category oliver is men but no no not necessarily it's never a

00:27:42.180 collection of women no it could be young men why should old men get rights because young men are

00:27:46.280 the ones that are defending them no no it's not it's not that who gets rights i you're making an

00:27:51.840 argument you're the one affirming rights i'm not right your whole view on feminism my counter to

00:27:58.240 feminism isn't about rights i don't even believe in rights okay your view is that women have rights

00:28:03.580 that's good i'm asking you well why isn't why isn't it the case you think oliver that women gave

00:28:09.460 themselves the right to vote why did they appeal to another body of people to get the right to vote

00:28:15.060 because they're the ones who controlled society like i don't really know what yeah but i don't

00:28:19.720 correct you're basically making a like a massive just is odd distinction no i didn't say the case

00:28:24.700 therefore i didn't say odd i didn't say odd then i can agree with your entire descriptive claim and

00:28:28.880 say yeah then that's so if it's okay but yeah but if it's descriptively true that the ones you're

00:28:35.660 going to be appealing to from the woman's perspective is always a collection of strong men

00:28:40.180 then your argument that uh that you're making the normative statement that we ought to pursue

00:28:46.160 feminism that it's good for society what i'm saying is that anything you call feminism actually affirms

00:28:52.160 the patriarchy no because you're defining patriarchy in terms of the enforcement arm that

00:28:56.900 what else could it be it's not because it's not because patriarchy as i talked about before is a

00:29:01.120 is a bunch of different things list one together okay i'm happy to go one at a time

00:29:05.420 okay i'm happy to do that um it's it's it's typically understood as a system that advantages

00:29:10.200 men over women granting them primary access across all domains stop there stop there one at a time

00:29:15.520 okay is brute strength an advantage over women it not necessarily it can be but it not always is the

00:29:23.120 case okay is it a advantage over women it can be but not all men are stronger than all women i

00:29:30.240 understand but generally speaking if there's a collection of men and a collection of women and

00:29:34.960 there's the same amount of each it's going to be the case that the collection of men even if they're

00:29:39.200 weak men are going to be stronger than the women right true okay however no no but next on the list

00:29:43.780 no but you're this is important you're assuming that all the men will necessarily agree to impose

00:29:49.640 their will i'm not talking about what they're agreeing i'm saying they could not whether whether

00:29:53.220 they agree women could kill their children it doesn't matter that's not that's then you don't

00:29:57.760 have a society okay cool so everyone could pursue their own self-interest society would implode and

00:30:02.880 where are we that's we're at liberalism that's what feminism is pursuing your own self-interest

00:30:07.500 and your wants that's what you trained women to do and under feminism pursue your individualism

00:30:12.080 there's no greater obligation for women like for instance under feminism is there any obligation to

00:30:17.420 have children uh no there's no obligation for men to have children either hold on having children

00:30:22.120 is not an obligation it depends on the world view but not generally just being a man yes you're not

00:30:26.920 obligated this is why the ought which is your affirmative tonight does require a meta-ethical

00:30:32.200 position right okay that's what i'm getting to yeah so under your view if it's the case that

00:30:36.540 feminism doesn't have an ought to have children yes is it a society better let's say there was a

00:30:42.620 society without feminism but it had the it it didn't affirm your idea of feminism but it produced

00:30:49.420 an ought statement of obligation to have children is that society better than the feminist one

00:30:54.080 no well if it survives is it better not necessarily i don't think a society surviving

00:30:59.640 in which women have zero rights and or zero you know are not well off what's a right what can you

00:31:05.740 define a right um an entitlement entitlement so are there any um if an entitlement is that given to

00:31:12.960 someone in a large sense yeah men and women it's given who gives women entitlements society well

00:31:21.180 that's pretty big well it is society we as a society decide on hold on hold on let's give it

00:31:25.560 let's look at the let's look at the 19th amendment for a second okay when women started screaming some

00:31:32.240 of them the minority by the way were started screaming for the the right to vote right who

00:31:37.720 are they screaming to to give them the right to vote the people in who were in power who were men

00:31:42.020 but you're just making a statement that was the i'm asking you why do they appeal to the men in

00:31:47.300 power and not just give themselves rights because those are the people that are in power you're

00:31:51.840 men they were excluded from being in power so when is it where women will be in the power position

00:31:58.020 where men are asking women for rights uh when there are women who are in power did you do you think

00:32:03.980 wait a second if if there is a female ceo and a man walks into her office and it's like i would

00:32:09.060 like a raise is he not asking her to grant him some sort of privilege or some sort of benefit

00:32:15.300 absolutely yeah but this is this is not the same category as a raise because the raise doesn't

00:32:21.680 depend well actually it does it depends ultimately on force which has which appeals to men so the

00:32:27.320 question for you oliver was this people it appears to people who have the ability people who have

00:32:31.820 yeah people who have the ability to force to to enforce unjust or just laws so when you want a

00:32:39.880 just law when when a bunch of women right when they wanted the right to vote they were asking other

00:32:46.680 people to give them the right to vote that's how all rights work i understand rights work because

00:32:52.540 they're enforced by brute they're by brute force every time yeah they're they requires enforcement so i

00:32:57.820 don't so all men don't enforce i know it's not about all men it's that the fact that the people

00:33:03.480 enforcing are going to be predominantly men and if they were predominantly women they couldn't

00:33:08.560 enforce it let's switch it for a second hold on let's switch it again men want the power the right

00:33:13.440 to vote right let's switch it switch the history right men want the right to vote the enforcement

00:33:19.740 are are women as you see them today not as we stated if we want to flip the entirety of history no

00:33:24.800 no wait a second we're not changing we're not all us equals no no you can't do that no that's not

00:33:29.140 how society developed that's how hypothetical works but you can't change the hypothetical and

00:33:32.560 not change the relevant variables look we would have to have society exist so that women over the

00:33:36.960 entire course of history had built everything had excluded no i didn't say i didn't say men are

00:33:41.780 women i'm saying in this instance in this instance okay right well that's the thing is you're

00:33:48.080 actually agreeing with me that throughout history why is it that men with the brute force built all of

00:33:53.340 the things like everything you see right all the big skyscrapers the tunnels the bridges underwater

00:33:59.380 welders all of these things are you going to do are you going to say that it just happens to be a

00:34:04.520 social construct that it happened to be men or is that a feature of biology so first off i think that

00:34:09.340 there's this general idea that men built society and that that that we should that the women did not

00:34:14.640 play an integral or fundamental role i wouldn't say that no no but hold on just let me finish yeah no

00:34:19.800 you're good it's fine no it's i'm i'm fine with the back and forth yeah so it's okay yeah so i'm

00:34:25.480 what i'm saying here is that there were there were women who made very important advancements in

00:34:30.060 almost every part of a um every part of advancement of infrastructure advancement of industry that you

00:34:36.400 just don't know about have some examples what do you like me to bring up no no an advancement is that

00:34:40.100 a an idea i mean sure we can talk about individual okay but this is a straw man i know i didn't say

00:34:46.320 they're not important i didn't say women can't think of cool things all right we're talking about

00:34:50.840 society let's say this city we're in right now it's maintained it's erected maintained by mostly men

00:34:59.200 sure operating on what brute force not just brute force organization and sips and ideas it's based on

00:35:07.340 ideas that's fine but without without the brute force you can't have the management of the roads for

00:35:12.540 instance this is why i talk about leverage okay men who run the city who actually use their force

00:35:18.780 and their will to get under in tunnels and get dirty and die doing these things right okay to

00:35:23.560 maintain if they suddenly said no i'm not doing this do you really think women could just step in and do

00:35:29.340 all the same work no and i think that if women collectively decided they're not going to have

00:35:32.980 children and kill themselves men could step in and have the children so then this is an equivalent

00:35:37.520 thing no no you agree with me women and men can both withhold something that is essential that

00:35:41.880 they provide to society oliver you agree with me the the opening statement that i that i made was this

00:35:48.340 the leverage women have the important aspect of women in society is being mothers and raising good

00:35:56.840 human beings first and foremost no yes no that that is one of the things that they can do that's the

00:36:01.700 most important what's the most important thing then for under feminism the most important thing

00:36:05.000 people having the choice to do what benefits they don't have the choice what do you mean they don't

00:36:10.420 have the choice what person has full choice in doing what they want none of us have choices then

00:36:15.220 we don't we are all a slave to the person who's stronger than us that's right so then

00:36:19.560 where does this get off the ground all you're claiming is might make right no i didn't say right

00:36:24.060 i'm saying descriptively it's the case i'm asking you from your perspective if it's not if we agree

00:36:29.740 that the leverage men have is brute strength such that they could basically hit a button called i'm

00:36:35.900 not going to work tomorrow and the city collapses and i asked you point blank could women do the same

00:36:41.480 job immediately and and get the city moving again you said no but then you said women but women but

00:36:48.020 women could leverage their bodies right women could kill their children i don't know that's right but

00:36:53.440 what do you you're talking about people have been put into spheres women have been designated to the

00:36:57.560 domestic sphere and men have been designated is that a construct what is that a construct i think

00:37:02.460 largely it can be no is it i think in a certain sense it is but there is i i'm not denying that men

00:37:09.240 are stronger than women generally and thus they have developed on different paths right you're just

00:37:15.320 claiming that because women are i mean in a certain sense women having to be pregnant is a burden

00:37:21.620 upon someone's body that that affects their ability to contribute to society in the same way if men

00:37:26.560 if women weren't like sidelined by pregnancy then so there's a biological aspect i agree with okay we

00:37:31.900 both agree there the biological aspect of men collectively not every individual man but

00:37:37.140 collectively generally speaking men are geared towards certain behavior certain work certain

00:37:42.020 kinds of things high risk things women are geared more towards something else and so if that's true

00:37:47.280 this is what i'm asking you oliver under your feminist view that you're advocating for saying

00:37:52.140 feminism is good for society if it's not the best thing for women under your vision of feminism if

00:37:58.780 it's not the best thing for women to be at home raising good human beings using their top leverage we

00:38:06.360 both agree one of their top leverage uh points is i don't think i don't think every man should become

00:38:10.300 a boxer and beat the shit out of people i didn't say that i didn't say you don't need boxers for society

00:38:14.980 you need people with brute with brute hold on you don't need boxers for society you need humans okay

00:38:20.520 you you do need humans okay but you do need you you're saying that every man therefore would be

00:38:24.980 better off utilizing their brute strength at all this isn't my positive position i'm asking you under

00:38:30.060 your feminist view which you're affirming tonight so you're under cross-examination so

00:38:34.300 what i'm just asking a simple question if it's not motherhood and raising the next generation of good

00:38:42.020 humans what is the higher obligation for women from a feminist view from your view no one has an

00:38:49.000 obligation to necessarily raise the generation the reason is because no wait i want to explain this

00:38:53.740 because i think this is important and it's brought up a lot feminism has no obligations is something i've

00:38:57.440 heard you say before i don't think that's true one of the obligations and one of the things that's not

00:39:02.060 an obligation under feminism is to raise children because no one has an obligation to do that however

00:39:08.040 you will always have people who have children in a society because people want to have kids that's

00:39:14.140 just something that happens so what we should do is we should incentivize people to have children by

00:39:19.200 giving them the most economic resources available the most personal freedom available so that the

00:39:24.480 people can make those decisions we should not go straight to let's force women to be in the home

00:39:28.380 nobody said nobody said force okay well you're using the force no no for just because i appeal

00:39:33.400 descriptively to force doctrine is something that you cannot avoid in any paradigm it doesn't follow

00:39:38.820 that i'm advocating to force women to have children i'm asking from your perspective if feminism is good

00:39:44.460 for society yes and society requires both force and people i'm asking what's the obligatory position

00:39:52.640 from your view that men and women have and are they different they don't have distinct differences okay

00:39:58.380 so if there's no obligations under feminism not true there's one gender specific oh so okay so when

00:40:04.640 someone um um so there's no okay so there's no obligation for men under your feminist society

00:40:11.620 women to no to to enforce rights there's not not no wait there there is not an obligation is that

00:40:19.000 gendered no no no there is not an obligation for individuals to enforce anything you don't have to

00:40:25.240 become a police officer so what how could you argue what's good for society x is good for society

00:40:31.600 society has preconditions do you agree when we refer to society we're talking about an aggregate of

00:40:37.020 people living in an ordered community right i don't think society necessarily has to be ordered but i

00:40:42.300 would say that well that's the definition are i'm giving us the definition you're providing but i don't

00:40:46.040 think the society has to be ordered there can be a society in chaos well to say it's in chaos means

00:40:51.720 it's bordered you could actually look at it and say that society's in chaos and this one's not

00:40:55.820 sure i guess that's order no you're defining ordered then is just distinct

00:40:59.800 then fine sure that societies are distinct and separate from each other that's fine so but

00:41:04.480 if if you're saying would you aren't you arguing tonight that feminism would assume

00:41:10.880 if you thought it was good that it would be ordered

00:41:13.700 sure okay so what is it okay if feminism is good for society and society the way you're referring

00:41:21.360 to it is ordered it requires force which is gendered and it requires duties that are tied to

00:41:29.620 that force which are gendered why yeah because you're arguing for women's rights no i disagree with

00:41:34.100 the first part that that this idea of enforcement is inherently gendered give me a counter example

00:41:39.540 men don't have to enforce the law that's right is that the society you want to live in men will

00:41:45.560 enforce law and women will enforce the law people step up no because you're arguing that if we don't

00:41:50.420 tell people you have to enforce the law you you have to become a police officer then no one will step

00:41:55.340 up and do that i think we can incentivize people and give them the most freedom possible and individuals

00:42:00.060 will gravitate towards the org towards the towards the industries is this okay let me ask you a different

00:42:06.360 way is society is a society better let's say society a has built into its meta-ethical position

00:42:14.800 that it has that that men have the obligation to keep order with force and then another society that

00:42:21.600 doesn't have that obligation which society is you think is better well you're assuming in the first

00:42:26.040 one that that meta-ethical obligation would therefore entail that those people would follow that right well

00:42:31.100 yeah well the obligation would include um potential uh legality but more so maybe social pressure of

00:42:37.820 obligation um if that's exists let's say let's say it's it was a society that appealed to women's rights and

00:42:45.320 there was an obligation for men to defend women and protect their rights versus your feminist uh you know

00:42:52.620 hypothetical society that doesn't have any obligations ultimately what's one obligation i think people should

00:42:58.960 defend defend those who are more vulnerable than they are women general no no no but women aren't

00:43:03.820 just those who are more vulnerable because of course we can see that there are women who are stronger

00:43:08.080 than men we can see that there are young men who are stronger than older men particular we can see

00:43:12.040 yeah of course we should talk about particular well you are talking about you're making you're kind of

00:43:16.540 making men and women out to be this homogenous group that they're all kind of existing in separate

00:43:20.880 domains and that's just not well no i know it does how it is how it works and i'm demonstrating that

00:43:25.840 generality is a perfectly fine thing to do i mean you can take a bunch of particulars add them up and

00:43:32.380 come up with a generalization that's just basic induction so inductively isn't it the case that

00:43:38.200 it's best it seems to be the best uh way to do it that men it just so happens to be the case that men

00:43:46.020 are in the positions to enforce and defend and go to war you know why is it that men and women have

00:43:51.940 different prison systems why do men and women have different prison systems i'm fully in favor

00:43:56.640 of i know but couldn't you say couldn't you say your honor um you're just there are women who are

00:44:01.680 some women who are stronger than men and there are some men you know and vice versa and stuff and

00:44:06.860 appeal to these particulars but isn't it the case that a prison system is a perfect example of the

00:44:11.980 generality that i'm actually arguing from sure but now you're making ought claims on what basis are

00:44:16.640 you making ought claims i didn't make an ought claim well you're saying men and women ought to be

00:44:19.680 indifferent i said descriptively the case there's a reason why they are but that reason is based in

00:44:24.660 an ought claim well of course it is do we have a duty to keep women away from uh outside of men's

00:44:29.540 prisons do we have a duty yeah i mean i think a society from your point of view i don't i don't

00:44:34.860 think i don't think i think what you're doing is you're specifying duties really specifically the

00:44:39.500 duty is not to keep women out of men's prisons the duty is to um keep um vulnerable people who are

00:44:46.640 more vulnerable women not always necessarily i don't i don't like i don't i don't think we

00:44:51.760 who commits more aggressive acts against of course it's men i'm not arguing that it's not men but i

00:44:56.580 think that in principle we should keep um a very you know a man that is weaker away from a woman who

00:45:02.820 is a serial killer well that's a particular i'm talking about prisons though so why is it in your

00:45:08.560 ideal feminist society why is it that if you're fighting for equality why is it you still have

00:45:14.240 separate prisons what do you mean i'm not well here's the thing that i put in my feminism thing

00:45:18.680 we're not denying that there are disparities or differences we don't deny that there's disparities

00:45:23.000 or differences between groups of men that doesn't mean that we think that i still ask you why though

00:45:27.760 the question was why in your society are you obligated from your perspective you're arguing tonight

00:45:35.120 to keep prisons separate wait who is obligated society as a whole is your is your ideal society look

00:45:41.520 it's oliver's world right now oliver is saying feminism is good for society that means there's a

00:45:46.720 type of society that appeals to feminism and practices it i'm asking you from an outsider pretend

00:45:51.740 i'm like uh like i'm visiting and i'm like why do you guys separate your prisons what's your answer

00:45:58.860 uh we should i think we should largely separate prisons because yeah there are differences between

00:46:03.100 men and women and i don't think and i think that men you know if men are especially men who are

00:46:07.120 violent especially men who are in prison who have shown a uh lack of care for the safety of those

00:46:11.920 around them i think we should also ensure that men aren't hurting other men in prison either like

00:46:16.840 okay i don't know like i so now i'm going to ask you if you argue that women are generally

00:46:23.060 collectively more vulnerable than men and that's why is good reason i'm not arguing that there aren't

00:46:28.060 some weak men that uh could be protected from stronger men but we're talking about male female here

00:46:34.460 why though why are we talking why don't we go we because because you are you are creating two

00:46:38.520 categories and i'm saying that are they do they exist of course the categories exist but you are

00:46:43.280 making the claim that because why is weaker than x right general rule as general rule why is we

00:46:48.760 therefore we have an obligation i mean obligation we should you know have separate prisons or

00:46:54.120 something like that why can't we do that inner intra-gender if that makes sense well the if you

00:47:00.060 agree and if you agree that there's a good reason to have women and men's prisons separated then i'm

00:47:07.480 going to ask you where where's the threshold where you no longer follow that rule outside of the prison

00:47:14.300 what do you i'm saying i'm asking where else in society are you willing to separate the women for

00:47:21.200 the same reason willing to separate women for the same reason yeah i don't i don't i don't know

00:47:26.100 for instance let me give you a particular example is it better in your ideal feminist society that a

00:47:32.060 weak woman is at home with her children and her husband at 11 30 p.m or signing out of her penthouse

00:47:39.620 office with her lanyard coming down the elevator at 11 30 p.m potentially uh the the victim of a of a

00:47:46.680 male crime i think you are reducing what is best for women like a homogenous level or a group that's

00:47:53.760 just one example no i don't what's better well you're saying what's better because you're assuming

00:47:59.580 what this woman is going to like be assaulted or something well no and i don't and yeah i would

00:48:03.100 rather not have a woman get assaulted of course what's more likely though no no but the solution

00:48:07.420 to that problem is not to say okay we need to keep all women in the home because men can't stop

00:48:11.420 graping them like that's not really how we should operate well no well actually the fact that it's

00:48:18.340 mostly men graping women goes to my point that the specific the the specific argument tonight

00:48:25.060 it it comes back to the force doctrine every single time it's never the case where you're going to be

00:48:31.480 collectively writing rules and and um basically making society around this view that that women

00:48:38.180 that we should protect men from women ever right we should protect men from everyone but no no i'm

00:48:44.740 saying generally speaking we don't structure society in a way that gears toward the concern of

00:48:50.600 uh women aggressing men it's usually the other way around right i mean i think we should do both

00:48:55.060 like i don't know i feel like a consequence of the patriarchy in these norms that we have

00:48:59.480 is that men can't be victims of abuse men can't be physically abused by women and i think that's a

00:49:04.120 problem we should not have that if a man is persistent to is is subject to persistent physical

00:49:09.360 abuse that should be taken seriously for by a woman do you think that with enough manpower we

00:49:15.520 can take down the patriarchy with enough manpower i think with enough societal organization with enough

00:49:22.380 like i don't know yeah work we can do it of course we can restructure society of course we can restructure

00:49:28.380 society so with enough manpower we can restructure away from the with enough change we can we can get

00:49:34.560 away from the patriarchy i don't know like you're arguing that like because men have to do it therefore

00:49:38.680 it's invalid or something well that's kind of what i'm asking is like if i ask someone with enough

00:49:45.440 manpower and resources could you take down the thing that's literally going to be mirroring what you're

00:49:52.460 aggregating in resources in other words to take down the patriarchy you need to find a bunch of strong

00:50:00.200 people to fight against this bunch of strong people and the bunch of strong people you're going to find

00:50:04.980 are going to look exactly like the the the collection of people you're going to be fighting against so

00:50:10.320 sure it's never the case where you go let's revolt against this this this tyrannical body of men who are

00:50:18.420 impeding on our rights you never go out and knock on the doors and grab the women first i mean

00:50:24.400 in order to fight or yeah sure what what you also wouldn't grab weak men like well no you would you

00:50:30.540 would why not why because they're still stronger than the women not if it no no no no you're saying

00:50:35.820 i i think there are i think the the echelon of like weakest men out there would absolutely be less

00:50:40.660 strong than than than the average woman i'm not sure if you take the same body frame if you knock on a

00:50:47.460 door well now okay and it's like the same height right and even weight if you're gonna go to war

00:50:53.740 you're gonna grab the the dude it's not just because of force though would you agree that men

00:50:59.580 are are more likely to exert aggression even for bad reasons than women sure yeah okay so if you're

00:51:08.680 going to war you would want someone who is who is able capable and willing to exert their aggression

00:51:15.620 on another aggressor whereas if if it's generally the case women are a little more timid why are they

00:51:21.940 though why are they more like likely to exercise their aggression i think this is biology i don't

00:51:27.380 know i don't i don't necessarily think that's the case do you have a son do i have a son no i do okay

00:51:31.780 so are you saying that um well you're raising your son now well no i'm saying that um of course

00:51:37.840 your son's gonna reflect your worldview well no no no no a three a three-year-old and even beforehand

00:51:43.300 you're gonna notice when you become a father god willing which is anti-feminist um you're going to

00:51:49.460 see that there's a clear distinction between boys and girls in their very uh instinct and and the

00:51:55.600 way they even behave and express themselves and the aggressive ones the males are aggressive you

00:52:00.780 just see it so right in front of you that is not necessarily the case for all boys what i didn't say

00:52:05.240 all i said generally speaking wait but you're also raising your son specifically everything you do is

00:52:11.300 in a gendered sense you're raising your son to be what your version you don't think we should

00:52:15.240 affirm gendered uh gendered uh society i don't necessarily think we should tell people that

00:52:21.000 there's a correct way to be a man or a correct way to be a woman so no i don't think that we

00:52:25.820 should raise our sons to be aggressive to show their you know like like i don't know like that

00:52:30.860 that aggression is a good way to get what you want or something like well i'm not saying that but

00:52:35.340 ultimately aggression and violence is an excellent way to get what you want um it works better it's

00:52:41.400 it's more critically uh it's a critical path would you rather your son uh primarily when he has a

00:52:47.460 disagreement with someone at school or something like that get into a fistfight with the kid or

00:52:51.580 would you rather have him have the communication skills to be able to talk that disagreement out

00:52:56.420 well in that instance the in that instance the ideal is to keep them uh in in a system right

00:53:03.300 then to fight we're not talking about whether or not violence is useful every time now just

00:53:08.580 change it change it change it more often useful or we're talking about maintain the reason this

00:53:13.620 came up is we're talking about maintaining society for instance like let's take another thing would i

00:53:19.360 rather would i rather the security guard at my school use force to stop an aggressor or talk to

00:53:27.160 them nicely like the teacher does so wait it would depend on the situation because right no no but i do

00:53:32.660 absolutely think that in a lot of these situations de-escalation can be effective and be more

00:53:37.920 effective than just violence is great de-escalation no it's not yes it is you're are you serious wait a

00:53:44.040 second you're one assuming that the violence will be successful in its in its aim and two that it won't

00:53:48.880 have other ramifications i think a society that always deals with its problems violently will

00:53:54.780 actually have worse consequences i don't think we should encourage kids to beat the shit out of

00:53:59.900 nobody saying that every time but that's what you're saying what violence is a very effective way

00:54:03.580 to get what you want i didn't say they ought i described that it is you keep confusing ought and

00:54:08.680 descriptions first off i actually don't think it is because it can become self-defeating if your way

00:54:13.440 of always resolving conflict is resorting to violence okay people will be less likely to associate with you

00:54:19.160 people will be less likely to really around you yeah really okay so but if you extrapolate that out

00:54:24.440 because we're talking about societies right now is society better with feminism is feminism good

00:54:30.560 for society right the reason this is such an important topic this the violence and force aspect

00:54:36.600 is because society itself no matter how you try to poetically describe your vision of of feminism

00:54:44.620 it's always going to be reliant on the threat of force and so at this mass scale level oliver

00:54:52.360 you're going to be an advocate for a pointing gun right at the society and saying if you

00:54:59.520 aggress over here force is going to come in that's what the violation of a right is right

00:55:04.200 i don't think that's how i would want society to you don't want if you want society with rights which

00:55:09.880 is in your opening feminism individuals having the same equal rights equal opportunities if you want

00:55:15.360 that you have to enforce it of course you do if you want that and you have to enforce it you need

00:55:21.920 you need to appeal to inequality it's a contradiction what do you mean you have to appeal to inequality

00:55:27.940 everyone has to appeal to inequality all the time no specifically with sexes no no wait a second no

00:55:33.760 because then every man has to appeal to someone who is stronger than him who's a man unless yeah but

00:55:40.420 unless okay then all men are at the mercy of the man who is that's right patriarchy that's

00:55:46.100 descriptively placed now now that you admit that that's actually true and i conceded that that's true

00:55:51.260 why does that matter i'm saying it matters because if you advocate for a feminist society

00:55:56.980 you're advocating you're actually i would argue that rights themselves feminism is actually sexist

00:56:03.880 ironically because feminism assuming rights assumes there's a body of men who are going to defend those

00:56:10.500 rights they don't have the obligation to do that of course people have an obligation to defend

00:56:15.480 those under feminism why why yeah i just think in general everyone should have an obligation to

00:56:20.580 who cares who cares what you think if you don't have any sort of empathy or anyone else other

00:56:25.080 than empathy no but empathy isn't it dude i've seen a video you did empathy empathy is an involuntary

00:56:31.720 signal that is perhaps what someone else is experiencing that doesn't tell you what you ought to do

00:56:37.520 you're in a debate now arguing feminism is good for society i bring in what's necessary to keep the

00:56:43.760 good in society and highlight force i ask you point blank under your feminist view

00:56:48.660 do men of the obligation morally ethically to uphold law that provides the playground you call feminism

00:56:57.920 feminist freedom men society in general has an obligation i guess to maintain itself but it doesn't

00:57:05.740 follow from that that every man has an obligation to uphold society i didn't say every man well then

00:57:11.340 then this doesn't have any bearing it does bear it does have bearing because we're talking about a

00:57:15.560 collective right we're already we're choosing the people who already exist right now let's choose

00:57:21.040 the stronger men let's choose there's a bunch of strong men right now the men that can actually

00:57:24.200 there's a bunch of men right now who are really strong yes they're in uniforms yes yep yep they have

00:57:29.740 to be trained they're in uniforms sure cops probably too unhealthy for my my taste but let's just say

00:57:35.120 they're all fit okay they're in a position where they come in and there's a there's a a man or a

00:57:42.000 woman being aggravated assaulted by someone okay under your system of feminism because that has to

00:57:47.980 be from a feminist view why does why does the collective of mostly men who are the enforcement

00:57:53.360 arm why do they have an obligation to defend anybody because you shouldn't want to see people hurt like i

00:58:00.080 don't know how to i don't know i don't know how to appeal that's like saying like you should like

00:58:03.380 licorice ice cream no i don't because i don't i think i think seeing someone suffering and wanting

00:58:08.500 that not to exist is different than ice cream flavor no what do you like no you're no no i think

00:58:14.500 you're appealing to an ultimate ultimately more morally relativistic no you're acting no no you

00:58:19.060 are you're appealing to moral this idea of moral relativism no it's your view no it's not my view

00:58:22.880 of course it is i am not a moral relativist you have to be no i don't have to be absolutely not okay

00:58:27.160 well how do you would you like me to tell you how i why is feminism morally good why is it morally

00:58:32.980 good so we can appeal to for example i think that moral objectivism can be defended on the basis

00:58:39.500 the same way that like um what is it called epistemic objectivism can be defended basically

00:58:44.960 this idea that i know that the world around me exists how do i know that the world around me exists

00:58:50.140 do i really know that the world around me exists no i wouldn't grant that but go ahead okay well so

00:58:54.540 we don't we don't really we're trusting our senses to tell us that the world around us exists

00:58:59.540 i'm intuitively trusting that you are sitting in front of me with a microphone i have a microphone

00:59:04.000 i have my ipad but glass of water here all of that i could be wrong i could indeed be wrong i could be

00:59:09.760 a brain in a vat but i'm trusting my intuitive sense that my senses are telling me correct information

00:59:15.100 i'm gonna great i'm gonna grant you an escape from solipsism i'm gonna grant you your sense data

00:59:19.680 how do you get a moral statement from sense data because moral statements largely are sense-based

00:59:26.460 i can't i can't give you a you can't really give me moral objectivism either

00:59:30.980 wait wait wait wait wait my view is not on the chopping block you're the affirmative you're the

00:59:36.200 affirmative we can get into it but the affirmative is feminism is good for society that's what you

00:59:41.920 came today right it leads to people let's say let's say my view christianity let's just what if it

00:59:47.460 was just terrible for society it still wouldn't change the the position you're in you would have to

00:59:52.860 argue why feminism is good for society so if you're going to sense data and you're saying well

00:59:58.580 i use sense data to navigate the world and i evaluate the sense data it also tells me

01:00:05.380 unjustified killing is wrong no it doesn't yeah why not look why doesn't it does your eye tell you that

01:00:10.520 this is black um yeah it does okay so black has a frequency reflective uh aspect of light sure i could

01:00:19.280 be wrong yeah right right but the frequency exists right the same frequency of having an intuition on

01:00:24.800 a moral level no no no hold on a second the reason i asked about the microphone is that black red the

01:00:30.780 spectrum of colors the frequency of light that all comes from white it reflects differently and so that

01:00:37.060 maintains even if you and i see things slightly different the thing that means what if i say it's

01:00:41.080 not black that maintains well i would say it's i would say it's a light a dark gray okay then what

01:00:46.000 if i say that it's white you could understand well if you said it was white if you said it was white

01:00:51.240 then we would appeal to some other people's uh views so we can appeal to other people's views so

01:00:55.580 if that sense data no no if one person says that murder is okay and everyone else disagrees and says

01:01:00.320 that it's wrong we can appeal to them and say you're wrong wait a second in the same way that i

01:01:04.100 wait a second are you arguing so wait how is that not subjectivism from your position position what do

01:01:09.180 you i think that it is as objective as we can get oh so you're saying it's not objective i because i don't

01:01:15.980 think we can have a hundred percent this is what i'm asking you i wouldn't have a hundred percent

01:01:19.680 certainty on anything where in the instance of a person deleting another person did you where in

01:01:25.620 the sense data itself sure the person is a size they have hair they have a shirt on or not this

01:01:31.700 these are all features of reality that you're pointing to the external world where in that are

01:01:37.200 you perceiving morality where am i perceiving morality the sense that i get the intuitive sense that

01:01:42.340 i get out but it's not the sense data though it can be absolutely i would see it wait a second

01:01:46.400 no hold on i would see is this moral what is this moral um having water this cup can you determine

01:01:53.260 this cup is it moral or not uh if you were to throw it at me i could no it wouldn't be the cup that was

01:01:58.620 immoral sure it wouldn't but what what would matter about that so what i'm pointing to is you said

01:02:03.840 because now we're in meta ethics because if you're saying feminism is good for society if you're saying

01:02:09.500 that's good for society you're making a meta ethical statement about the good i'm asking from

01:02:14.620 your view where what it what grounds the good and you said sense data so but the thing is you can't

01:02:20.640 point to anything in the world that occurs as an event and look at the event itself and get and

01:02:26.860 retrieve empirically why not the good why not well you're claiming it how where is it i see something

01:02:33.080 happen and i and i have an intuitive sense about it okay someone sees something else and they have an

01:02:37.700 intuitive sense that is justified and you disagree okay absolutely and who's wins wait a second but

01:02:41.800 that's the same problem empirically no i say that's why if i say that's white and you say that's not

01:02:46.020 how how are they how are they that's not the same but how are they different because this is this is

01:02:50.340 actual sense data no no this is actual sense the opinion about what this is is not whether or not

01:02:56.960 it's good or not this is odd this is is this is a guilt this is hume's guillotine this is like

01:03:03.260 this is like describing things into the good right this is a philosophical problem that you can't

01:03:09.960 bridge is odd i get the is out for right but why why would if you know that i'm aware of that because

01:03:15.160 we at some point you have to assert a moral claim that you can't further back up they have to bottom

01:03:21.660 out somewhere so they have to bottom then oliver why would you even use sense data why don't you just

01:03:25.920 say regardless of seeing anything i have a feeling what if someone described something you didn't see

01:03:31.840 anything wait a second but that's still sense data you hear it from them you hear their story you

01:03:36.080 hear that it evokes a response in you so yeah and then that's a response okay so the same way i see

01:03:41.540 that okay then how do you argue with let's say a nation predominantly held like a christian view

01:03:48.260 that women that feminism was immoral and they out they outnumbered you would you just submit

01:03:54.860 no you can't well you can't you just make fine then yeah whoever has the most power automatically

01:03:59.180 you mean force but that's a descriptive claim of course whoever has the most power

01:04:03.500 is in holding all else equal mind you we have to hold everything else equal in that scenario because

01:04:08.340 just having brute force doesn't necessarily mean you are going to win well not necessarily if someone's

01:04:14.000 better organized if they have better access to resources they would still need some aspect of

01:04:19.380 force but not but it's not ultimate it's not like you know it's we don't add up the who has the

01:04:24.280 most strength and least strength and then determine that's what if you agree if you agree that if you

01:04:29.200 have a feminist view and i have an anti-feminist view the ultimate descriptor i'm not saying might

01:04:34.860 is right i'm saying might is it just is and i don't disagree okay so if might just is and we both agree

01:04:42.400 that might is is in fact a gendered statement i'm arguing that feminism itself relies on a view it relies

01:04:52.100 on a part of reality that's antithetical to the ideal of feminism that that feminism itself in

01:04:59.200 practice rights privileges all of these things you're adding to women right in their in their in

01:05:05.700 their life that they are granted are granted by stronger people that are merely allowing them

01:05:12.340 to have them fine then that's the same thing that's a that's a patriarchy no wait a second no wait

01:05:17.060 that's you can make the same argument within a gender you are separating into men and women why

01:05:23.100 can't i divide men up and say that yeah we do stronger men okay well then i don't that's in favor

01:05:29.280 of a patriarchy though if men look if men win against other men it's still a patriarchy i but we

01:05:34.900 shouldn't base it on the enforcement oliver let me just i just want you to concede if men take over

01:05:39.860 other men it's still a patriarchy that's not what defines patriarchy because it's not the enforcement

01:05:44.340 it's not what men could do that defines whether it's a patriarchy the same way we are not a

01:05:49.160 militaristic state authoritarian state just because the military could if they want overthrow democracy

01:05:55.660 well no they're allowing it not to be sure so then are we it's an allowance no fine then are we would

01:06:02.220 it be correct to describe our country right now as a militaristic authoritarian regime potentially i

01:06:08.720 would say that rights themselves are fairly authoritarian just to assuming them like like

01:06:14.860 for instance people say often maybe you've argued with theis oliver where you're like i'm totally fine

01:06:20.700 with what you believe just don't force your beliefs on me right have you said that to someone no i haven't

01:06:24.860 okay but you've heard someone say that right i have i think it's stupid right do you agree that you

01:06:28.920 would it's actually probably good thing to force your beliefs on people if you i think oh it would

01:06:33.940 depend on what you mean by force but i think i i think if someone believes something i don't know why

01:06:37.580 they wouldn't want to if they believe it to be correct right i don't know why they wouldn't want

01:06:40.580 to share that belief and have others adopt what they view as the true well not even share i let's

01:06:45.080 say let's say i agree with you if if you understand if someone held the belief and they truly believed

01:06:51.220 it not only would they want to share that belief uh and have other potentially believe it but meet

01:06:56.780 others who already believe it the next step would simply be why wouldn't they i don't know take

01:07:02.640 positions of of government and legislative uh office seats and say well i love my view so much

01:07:09.640 and i've i've i've gained so many people around me who love my view why wouldn't i just use the

01:07:15.560 enforcement arm isn't the ultimate goal here like even in this debate even in this debate pizza or if

01:07:21.260 i love pizza i know to bring the government into that's superficial i was not because it's the same

01:07:25.840 similar type of view you could extrapolate it that far if you want and that would be ridiculous

01:07:29.900 would you say it's ridiculous for someone who's like i like pizza this much i like cheese pizza i

01:07:34.260 would like everyone to like cheese pizza if people don't like cheese pizza because i think it's correct

01:07:38.480 and i think it's the best i'm saying i'm going to enforce everyone no regardless if i want that i'm

01:07:44.460 saying that that's actually possible yeah but we would look upon that person as what that's fine if

01:07:49.840 you know but it would be weird yeah but call it i understand we both agree that would be weird i'm not

01:07:55.660 debating whether or not we agree on things that are weird what we're debating tonight is like

01:08:00.320 the foundation of feminism rests on something that's counter descriptive to feminism no yes if

01:08:08.300 feminism look i'll do it again feminism is the movement away from men in power is that better than

01:08:14.380 patriarchy it's the movement away from men in power specifically men men inherently having power

01:08:22.020 dominant yeah the dominant collective because they're men being excluded from that women's rights

01:08:26.460 is a feminist movement it's yeah okay so if women's rights is a feminist movement away from

01:08:35.440 the movement of men in power why does women's rights require the thing that they're opposing

01:08:42.780 wait because you can just because someone has power doesn't mean they're exercising it against you

01:08:49.000 like i don't i don't see like you're you're saying like there's always going to be a man in charge

01:08:52.960 therefore there's going to be a collection of in a society that's ordered that has any kind of law

01:08:58.020 or or say rights which are which are privileges or entitlements without any duties in this case

01:09:04.960 feminism is a movement away from men in power women's rights is a feminist movement a supposedly

01:09:13.180 against this power structure and yet they're against men though i know but it's a no it's not

01:09:18.820 against no no you got to follow this line though i'm not saying they hate men or whatever i'm saying

01:09:22.940 that the actual movement to affirm and defend and protect rights they're asking daddy they're asking

01:09:31.700 daddy for an allowance no they're asking society in general no society's opinion doesn't matter when

01:09:37.220 the force comes in sure the force does come in but what it's the only thing we're talking about

01:09:41.080 but here's the thing that i'm i'm running into the the problem is you were assuming that men

01:09:46.000 will act this way that men will do this that men will act as a collective to enforce their will

01:09:52.760 necessarily i think i'm saying that i think it's i think if i think i think social is a look i don't

01:09:58.600 think we automatically tell or i don't think we should and i hope you're not raising your son to

01:10:02.180 say if someone has a toy and you really want that toy go over there and take it from them depends what

01:10:06.440 the toy is that could be good for them actually you know what i mean like it could be good for you

01:10:11.200 and me is like look look let's just hypothetically hold on oliver oliver is it possible that there's

01:10:17.840 an instance that of necessary growth of boys battling it out sure of course but we're talking

01:10:23.640 in generalities because you're you're saying that i can't appeal to the fact that there are men that

01:10:27.860 are weaker than women to invalidate the claim that like this forced doc wasn't the question wasn't your

01:10:33.860 question well just because a collective of men could take over it doesn't matter it doesn't mean

01:10:38.880 that men will take over yeah they won't you ever debated anarchists i have not i mean i've heard

01:10:44.260 their okay i just want to i want to put this on you pretend pretend you and i are debating against

01:10:49.100 a third person who's an anarchist for a second you're we're on the same team for a second and i say

01:10:53.260 i ask them why do you think anarchy is possible and they say well because most people are passive and

01:11:00.100 don't want to you know use their force and their will to control people yeah and then they ask me

01:11:04.920 why do you think anarchy doesn't work i i answer the same exact thing because most people don't use

01:11:13.500 force but the the small group that does that does want to use their force they will why can't there

01:11:19.380 be another group that uses their force contrary to that in support are they made up of men sure

01:11:26.260 okay some of them can be and some of them patriarchy for the win no but but that's not how we should

01:11:30.920 define what a society is just by who makes okay the majority define a society whatever whatever

01:11:37.740 ordered thing you is that fine with you can come up with one that you like better i don't find it can

01:11:42.000 be ordered i agree that there has to be some sort of order to society i'm not disagreeing with now

01:11:46.760 would you agree that order supposes force i guess the threat of force sure but the threat has to

01:11:56.120 be able to be actualized right ultimately like if you call their bluff over and over sure yeah fine

01:12:01.260 it has to be actualized this is what i'm saying and i don't know how many times more times i can

01:12:05.840 drive this home is that your vision of feminism being rights equal opportunities you're basically

01:12:12.300 saying society is in a place where females should be more liberated to be in all sorts of different

01:12:19.900 areas okay that's what you're really arguing you're arguing that society is essentially which i kind

01:12:25.220 of agree is an amusement park that's already been built and maintained largely by men right you're

01:12:32.140 just adding a police element and what you're saying is feminism is disney world they should be able to

01:12:37.680 ride on every ride and then i go everyone should have access to the ride i know but who enforces that

01:12:43.460 everyone has access to the rides men it's society in general and you are right that it is primarily

01:12:49.140 going to be so would you concede would you concede that your vision of feminism actualized requires

01:12:55.340 something antithetical to feminism no it is not antithetical because just saying that men should do

01:13:00.900 the right thing and men should be in favor of these things is not against feminism i don't see how that's

01:13:06.040 no i didn't say should i said well that's your other problem is do they have an obligation but the

01:13:10.620 bigger problem is is it actually a necessity that men collectively defend women's rights i think it is

01:13:17.320 it is it is a necessity that society defends the rights of those who are less vulnerable you keep

01:13:22.340 saying society okay it can't be random people in society you're right that it was sure okay well you

01:13:29.020 concede for the audience then that your vision of feminism requires by necessity the actualization

01:13:36.120 and the threat of stronger people who are predominantly men

01:13:39.700 sure okay so feminism requires men in power feminism requires men to support feminist goals

01:13:50.880 in power it's an allowance system everything is an allowance system like we're bargaining with people

01:13:57.520 who are stronger and have more power than we do in order to get what we want so that means feminism

01:14:01.800 the way you're describing it relies wholly every aspect that any kind of cherries you want to put on

01:14:07.800 top like any amenities extra extra whipped cream on the feminist boat ultimately you're asking and

01:14:15.000 women today are still asking please stronger collection of men allow us to do xyz right i think it's it's

01:14:23.620 asked yeah it's asking society not to hurt them so is that yeah but that that's an that's an inequality

01:14:29.440 i'm not arguing that women are as strong as men i'm not trying to argue that as a collection that

01:14:35.700 they're that they're equal in every aspect yeah but you said equal opportunities of course do women

01:14:41.100 have the equal opportunity to defend or take other people's rights if you're talking like all

01:14:49.280 everything all else equal or are we talking like they they can have certain abilities to do that in

01:14:54.720 terms of the weaponry that they have in terms of well if of the organization of society that they

01:14:58.700 have like i don't i think that you're assuming that we live in a state of nature which we don't

01:15:03.220 currently live in a state of nature no i still think the nature bleeds in i i know what you're

01:15:07.640 saying that we live in a state of luxury are you saying like decadence a little bit it's not like

01:15:12.700 it's like brute it's not like brutality of the wilderness right sure because of men

01:15:17.600 because that's men built structures built concrete jungles you know they they built underground a lot of it

01:15:27.300 systems okay but a fair amount of that was the only reason we're not in the jungle is because of men

01:15:32.500 you do realize that a collection of men together without like knowing like how a building is made

01:15:37.940 you can't just pull like a bunch of men together and say build this building they're not going to

01:15:42.140 know how to do that i understand you need engineers but that's irrelevant because if without if you say

01:15:47.580 without the engineer you can't build a building well there are people who've built buildings without

01:15:52.260 insane levels of engineering i'm not saying that but i'm saying to build the society that we have

01:15:56.480 right now to maintain it you need sure brute force and you can't fix anything what does it have

01:16:01.320 well we're back to the leverage if men can leverage their brute force so i gave the example of voting

01:16:09.320 that when collective of men vote they're basically saying oh you know what i'm gonna vote even though

01:16:15.560 the alternative i don't want to do the alternative but the alternative could be that i get my all my

01:16:20.900 friends with our guns and overthrow if we can we'll start a war or whatever why can't women get

01:16:25.080 together with all their friends who are men and do that what you're saying men can appeal to other

01:16:30.440 men to enforce their own rights why can't women do the same thing men can collectively do that

01:16:36.220 without women women can't do it without men i don't think that's necessarily true it is absolutely true

01:16:41.140 there's no women there's no collective of women who could if that was true uh some of what you would

01:16:47.080 think there are the worst uh places in in the world in regards to a woman's experience in the

01:16:52.540 standard they can't so take over the men dude i think that they could as you're talking about

01:16:58.660 leverage you know the power that they do have which is that system i'm not denying but there's

01:17:04.300 biological differences between men and women i don't see kind of what argument you're getting i think

01:17:09.100 that women are largely in a sense many women are complicit in the patriarchal structure that we have

01:17:14.880 and help to uplift it good there is a war yeah but but i'm saying that that it is not all just

01:17:20.400 brute force there's an ideological component here there's women who believe in this system and will

01:17:25.380 back men up on it i understand that i'm not i'm not saying that doesn't exist i'm saying if you had

01:17:30.540 all of that stuff exist they just wouldn't do it no none of it matters uh if if you don't have

01:17:35.400 force enforcing it if every woman in society collectively all of them which is an impossible

01:17:41.060 hypothetical because all women are not going to agree on something and all men are not going to agree

01:17:44.000 on something if all women you know decided immediately to disagree with all men yeah do

01:17:49.000 you think all men would stand strong in that disagreement and be like no you're my slave

01:17:53.220 now or would some of them be like wow my wife is coming to me and saying she doesn't like disagree

01:17:57.100 about what though like the way the way society's structured yeah i would say you know what the men

01:18:02.040 would say what that i would get all the men to collectively get together you can't no i no look

01:18:07.800 like if all the women collectively got together and screeched into the ether and went we don't like

01:18:13.600 it anymore that's basically every women's march by the way um what men like to do from the sidelines

01:18:20.000 in the houses that they built is say what are you going to do about it hold on but then that's just

01:18:26.160 being like fuck you i don't give a shit about you well in a funny way no no it's not saying we don't

01:18:30.300 give a shit because the people we're talking about are misguiding and they're misguided with

01:18:36.260 what their their uh their leverage is so women's leverage is not marching in the street holding

01:18:42.000 signs until things change even though uh let's say the 18th amendment before the 19th amendment

01:18:47.440 before they could vote they did have a moral leverage so i actually agree with you that women

01:18:52.120 do have some sort of uh i don't want to call it manipulation in a pejorative sense but they have

01:18:57.560 the ability back then by the way they had the ability to point out let's say moral uh issues right

01:19:05.460 point out degeneracy point out uh things that were indecent women have a sense about we call

01:19:10.780 we call them karens now right back in the day before they were given uh the right to vote the

01:19:16.720 18th amendment they actually used their moral leverage it within society because men still uh revered

01:19:23.820 women and their opinions about certain things because they had a specific place in their in their home

01:19:29.480 and in society men still do that you're never going to get all men to ignore the interests of all

01:19:34.260 women i understand i'm not saying i'm saying even majority no i'm saying that without men actualizing

01:19:41.140 whatever the request is it's just a grievance i'm not denying that if the society does not follow

01:19:46.140 through on what the grievances are then sure you keep oliver you keep swapping i understand why you're

01:19:53.040 doing this it's fine but i'm going to correct you every time you can't swap out when you we what we

01:19:58.820 really mean is a collection of men specifically and you keep saying society to ambiguate it i'm going

01:20:04.860 to keep disambiguating it because it drives the point home if there's a collection of people who

01:20:10.500 think society should be xyz and they want to actualize it that is force they're going to develop

01:20:17.480 laws they're going to develop all sorts of systems you're going to require brute force what i'm saying

01:20:22.620 is that's descriptively inequality why because in your opening as you move away from feminism god

01:20:30.840 willing um at least take out equal opportunities because that's not even true for men no i'm not

01:20:36.960 but i'm not saying that everyone like because everyone should be given the opportunity to given

01:20:43.140 by who dude so don't say society again why i don't say society but it's not i don't see all that's

01:20:49.540 relevant okay it is relevant look i look at the world through a descriptive lens that it's a page

01:20:54.660 it's patriarchal and it's hierarchical i'm not saying it's an it's a ought that might is good

01:21:00.560 always might sometimes is good but let's look at it as a house right let's say you're the father

01:21:05.660 again god willing i'm throwing this out there oliver the father you have five kids beautiful wife big

01:21:12.180 out big old house from being a lawyer okay the kids are the women in this instance i don't just just

01:21:19.220 just just it's just an analogy okay yeah okay the kids are screaming i want the house this way i

01:21:24.720 want they're screaming loud they made signs they march every morning in front of the breakfast nook

01:21:28.880 okay okay right you're like sit down i've got have breakfast um if they equal the the the protesters

01:21:36.780 right in this instance isn't it ultimately oh who is it ultimately going to be up to in the house

01:21:42.840 whether they change the house or not but they change the house if they change they're screaming to

01:21:47.240 change the house right who's ultimately going to going to decide whether it's going to happen or

01:21:52.200 not sure the person who has the power i'm not disagreeing so you agree in the analogy it's a

01:21:57.340 good analogy because the women in society don't have the equal opportunity or power to change society

01:22:02.580 they need to get the ears of men they need to somehow use other forms of leverage but it's never

01:22:09.380 going to be identical to power what i'm saying to you i think we agree men's leverage is brute force

01:22:15.720 do they use it correctly or not that's a whole other debate right is it just or not women have

01:22:21.960 the leverage of being the potential mothers and wives and and the the childbears and the people

01:22:27.560 raising the children my view is that women's high the the best place a woman a collection of women i'm

01:22:34.460 not saying all of them and i'm not saying force i'm saying the best thing for to advocate for women

01:22:39.440 the truest form of real feminism would be to appeal to the feminine nature and what they're

01:22:45.200 really good at which is not fighting and making people bleed it's raising children why are you why

01:22:50.820 is that not feminism why are you dichotomizing those though because you're saying that society is is

01:22:54.940 fundamentally dichotomized into fighting and killing each other and raising children uh i don't

01:23:00.620 think that those are the only two things i didn't say that but but then why can't women and men i think

01:23:06.020 women and men should pursue other things that aren't just fighting and killing people and raising

01:23:12.240 children because there is so much in between there that both men and women i'm not saying they can't

01:23:17.100 do these things i'm saying i'm trying to prioritize that's why i'm gonna i'm gonna try to you have to be

01:23:21.560 a little charitable with the dichotomy because i'm looking at urgency and priority okay i'm not saying

01:23:27.700 that there isn't a list of things underneath that they can't want might want to do and not do or

01:23:32.160 whatever i'm saying ultimately for a society to exist you need two things three things law and

01:23:37.880 order which we already establish requires men primarily for the most part obligations and duties

01:23:44.320 still a little bit blurry on your side of how what provides obligations and duties but then people

01:23:50.120 human beings do you know that we like i know that you mentioned it we do have a fertility crisis we

01:23:55.220 have a birth rate okay would you can i'm not going to blame everything on feminists but would you

01:24:00.220 concede that you've at least witnessed pretty high octane um uh propaganda from a feminist view

01:24:09.780 against mothering and being a mother in the home as a requirement yes not as a requirement yes as a

01:24:16.960 requirement no like obligation that women have and if they don't do it they are failing as women yes i

01:24:22.780 have never i have very i have seen very little of feminists saying you can't have kids majority of

01:24:28.980 feminists and people do have children i'm not saying can't i'm saying what's being presented as

01:24:34.540 strong femme do you see mostly mothers or do you see hold on girl bosses just answer that and i think

01:24:41.700 the reason we see it as girl bosses is because for so long being a woman has been defined as being a

01:24:49.080 mother so what this is is it's a reaction to the to the prescriptions that have been put on women for

01:24:55.460 so long what does it mean to be a good woman you raise a child you raise children you're in the

01:24:59.660 home still correct it's still correct though i don't know not necessarily if it's women don't

01:25:04.220 have to do that men don't have if you want a society you have to do that you do there so do

01:25:08.760 you want a feminist society or not i do want a feminist then you need those things no no you do

01:25:12.360 but you don't need to obligate people to do that people will do it on their own you don't have to

01:25:17.700 tell they're not doing it why aren't they doing it it's because they can't fucking afford to do it

01:25:22.240 no no that's not true it is why are the poorest people have the most what why are the poorest

01:25:25.920 people have the most kids why do poor people have the most kids generally largely because they

01:25:29.500 don't have access to contraception because they don't have access to all those things because

01:25:32.700 they don't have access to folks hold on a second we don't have a moderator you just said because

01:25:36.460 people can't afford it i just pointed a counterpoint i just gave you a counterpoint

01:25:40.800 that the poorest people are having the most kids yes so that's not a good reason hold on

01:25:45.980 just because poor people are having children more poor people have more children than

01:25:50.840 the wealthy released from the fully liberated uh fem bot right the feminoids are in western

01:25:59.320 luxurious countries i would argue that it's not because they don't have money it's because they're

01:26:04.720 they have a materialist worldview well no i think they have a worldview that says you have the

01:26:10.340 option to have children or not no and i think no people people who are poor i think largely i think

01:26:15.300 you're in college dude yeah i am in college wait a second are you saying that you don't hear

01:26:19.840 every from every angle not just in media not just in in movies not just in education you're not

01:26:26.180 hearing the messaging that says women we got to fight against this whole like you being at home

01:26:32.480 being a mother thing you need to be a strong independent woman right go out there and be a

01:26:36.980 girl boss right and what i and i don't i don't know what women you're talking to i don't think and i

01:26:42.020 look i we can ask women this question when you hear that do you hear i should not have children

01:26:47.520 or i should not center every aspect of my existence around being a mother and instead

01:26:53.100 prioritize some of my own well-being over that and i don't think that is antithetical to having a

01:26:58.300 society that has children people will have children if they if they have the resources forget the

01:27:03.320 ought for a second okay i'm going to grant you that the ought claim isn't being made but are you saying

01:27:07.940 the power the power of media in today's age you and me are not going to agree that that doesn't

01:27:15.320 influence the way women see childhood like i see birth look every single look dude every single

01:27:22.120 image of childbirth in media for the last 20 years has been like an emergency screaming fest where

01:27:28.040 everyone's like it looks like they're about to die dude and what happens after that what do you mean

01:27:32.100 what happens no in the scene what happens after the screaming and that all that well they they give

01:27:35.960 them the baby and if it's not poorly written well they get a shot of uh endorphins there you go so it's

01:27:40.700 not anti having children well it shows that and then that's fine when they love their children and

01:27:45.660 it's a beautiful day fair enough but when you're looking at the overall propaganda from feminism

01:27:51.160 right i don't think you're the representation by the way i don't i don't really think there is a

01:27:56.760 representation you don't think there's a they don't think there's a central through line of

01:28:00.820 narrow of uh of narrative through from the general feminists like even all every every phase of

01:28:08.020 feminism there's a through line there's i think i think there is a type of feminism i think there is

01:28:12.640 a picture of feminism that gets amplified by the media okay what is that and people who know and

01:28:17.420 people who are sympathetic to your view because of the way that algorithms are structured in the way

01:28:21.140 that media structures that you get presented tell me that yeah of course yeah women hate having

01:28:25.440 children they view being mothers as inherently oppressive right and they yell that i'm not saying

01:28:29.800 that's not a narrative i'm just saying i don't think it's actually something that most people and

01:28:34.800 even women subscribe to i think most women ideally want to be mothers they just don't want to be

01:28:40.900 defined as child bearers they don't want to be because they want to be able to have other because

01:28:46.780 just like men aren't defined as as as fathering children i know but like okay like i don't what

01:28:56.100 what else what else would you define a woman as in her lifetime right i'm not saying all women have

01:29:04.100 kids it's like they could live into different futures especially women who can't have kids but

01:29:08.940 ultimately we're looking at what what should be advocated right i'm here i'll put it simply from

01:29:15.820 your view of feminism why isn't feminism prime uh prioritize motherhood because you because your

01:29:24.120 side of it prioritizes motherhood in such a way no no wait because it prioritizes motherhood in such a

01:29:29.960 way that is oppressive no dude yes it's the total opposite no let me tell you why it's the opposite

01:29:35.000 to be in the home no you don't want women let me tell you why it's opposite what do you what let

01:29:38.720 me tell you why it's opposite are you really telling me right now you let me tell you why it's

01:29:41.760 opposite to vote is it more is it more oppressive on a woman to be in the home or to be in debt

01:29:47.040 um i think that it depends first one on who the woman is and what she wants i think it's more

01:29:54.680 oppressive to force a woman to be in no one forces her yes you do how do you force a woman to be at

01:30:00.560 home uh don't allow her to go to work use the exact force that's not force what are you talking

01:30:05.700 about no that's cool that's some type of uh that's some sort of uh emotional coercion threat of

01:30:10.840 violence aren't we aren't we all aren't we totally you say everything bottoms out in violence you say

01:30:15.400 everything bottoms out and no no no you use not everything no what when it comes to when it comes to

01:30:20.120 right no when it comes to rights which you're advocating for when it comes to when it comes to

01:30:24.360 um engagement let's say man and woman okay uh both the man and the woman have different forms of uh

01:30:30.980 let's say manipulation a type of coercion some type of like if you ultimatums this kind of thing

01:30:36.800 okay women and men can both do that but the reason when you said women are more oppressed when

01:30:43.140 they were in the home okay look when they started the suffrage movement right do you think that it

01:30:48.580 was most women who wanted the vote no i know a lot of them were against it okay because they were

01:30:52.140 against it because they thought it would require them to also be conscripted into the that that and

01:30:57.280 they did not want that and that they would also be uh uh subject to debt as well but mostly the first

01:31:04.600 thing you said um did you know that the the the minority that was the suffragette movement actually

01:31:10.860 shut shut down and made it hard right thwarted these women showing up in a type of primary votes

01:31:17.640 to vote against their own vote hold on i mean i feel like that's not that surprising though i know

01:31:22.580 but how look dude hold on wait no no wait if if a bunch of hold on this is going to be a poor analogy

01:31:27.640 but it's coming to mind right now imagine that i guess black people wanted to be free from slavery

01:31:31.680 and they knew that there was a faction of black people who would outnumber them and i guess had

01:31:36.700 been convinced that slavery was good and they tried to stop those people from coming in and keeping

01:31:42.060 them in chains would it would it be ridiculous for them to do that i don't think so i think it would

01:31:46.520 make sense we don't want these women voting against us having the analogy actually comes

01:31:52.620 back to the force doctrine because these people used force and other techniques to stop the women

01:31:57.900 from actually showing up you know what they said who who did they just the like the whole who used

01:32:02.820 force well they would actually physically isn't is it obstruction force well sure but who was due

01:32:07.220 using the force then oh it's probably a collection of men men okay so then men were the ones who

01:32:12.040 yeah patriarchy were against women having the right to vote it doesn't matter what women want

01:32:16.220 because they can't enforce no no you're confusing me you're confusing me i'm saying the people pro

01:32:21.520 women voting shut down the majority of women who were going to come to vote right against their own

01:32:28.280 vote why do you understand i get it then why were men advocating why were men using force to stop

01:32:35.260 women from advocating against them voting there were men on either side who didn't who were like what the

01:32:40.200 hell's going on but what what i'm saying is that so there's when when it comes to the reasoning though

01:32:44.180 oliver the the whole group of the suffragettes they basically were like they gaslit the women

01:32:51.500 right and this is what's so ironic is that hold on gaslit they said they said oh these women who are

01:32:58.240 the majority they're just so docile from being in the home that they're not thinking right in their

01:33:04.760 opposition to voting so we have to figure out a way to stop them from opposing it they were literally

01:33:11.080 looking at the women like the women didn't have the right mind to say no uh being in the home is is

01:33:17.560 best for society best for motherhood best for children uh it's best to not get conscripted it's

01:33:23.080 best to not hold debt and it's best for men to manage all these other things there's this gendered

01:33:27.560 system that they were they that they were living in these radicals basically were saying no we got to

01:33:33.460 change the world right it's always this revolutionary movement right but the thing is the revolutionary

01:33:38.700 movement ironically still requires the thing that they're opposing they're asking daddy hold on for

01:33:45.220 the force fine i can be against violence and realize that in order to actually be against violence there

01:33:52.580 must be some threat of violence to back that up but that doesn't make it contradictory to be against

01:33:58.860 unjustified violence well i'm talking about violence i'm talking about feminism no no but you're saying

01:34:04.020 that feminism is a contradiction it is because they are against men and their power and in order

01:34:10.700 to be against that you have to appeal to it appeal to men so in order to be against violence

01:34:17.340 you have to have some sort of violence opposing that well no no it is it is a no no i'm saying

01:34:26.060 saying it's actually worse it's it's like it's like specifically the feminist i understand the

01:34:32.660 violence paradox this is this is more than that it's it's that that women them because you can

01:34:37.440 have a violence paradox with two groups of men right sure but i'm saying that if you switch it to a

01:34:42.800 group of men and a group of women the women don't have the leverage of violence at all so it's not

01:34:48.560 even violence against violence it's literally violence against uh a bunch of people who can't fight

01:34:54.200 right they're going to annihilate them so what the what the feminists need and they still need today

01:34:58.440 they're saying down with the patriarchy down with the patriarchy the reason that they're chanting

01:35:04.180 is because they know they don't have any power hold on wait do you do you deny that like protests can

01:35:11.360 be effective and protests can help change hearts and minds and things of that nature yes it changes the

01:35:16.420 minds of men and therefore men yes but i don't but i don't see how that's like i don't know trying to

01:35:22.080 change the minds of people who have more and i agree men have more privilege in society because

01:35:27.200 of that i'm saying that with a certain amount of privilege comes a responsibility here we go to

01:35:32.980 defend those who are hold on hold on okay i grant that and i agree with you from my worldview men

01:35:39.320 because of their ontology and their nature they have different duties than women right now even if you

01:35:45.660 find some alternative and some exceptions i know your brain goes to exceptions right i'm granting all the

01:35:50.720 exceptions i'm just saying generally speaking there is a pretty clear threshold between what would

01:35:56.320 seem to be the duty of men from both of our perspectives you're saying well men given that

01:36:01.840 they have the ability maybe they should have the duty sure to protect these things what i'm asking

01:36:06.880 what i'm asking for is the counter um the counter deontology the the what is the duty and the

01:36:15.740 obligation of the women if we you and i both agree that the duty and the obligation of the man is to

01:36:21.960 protect not men people who are people who are stronger than others and i generally men generally

01:36:25.880 men fine but it's not why do you do that why do you do this because it's not in virtue of the fact

01:36:30.000 that they're men i would think that a stronger woman would have that same duty that the men has to

01:36:36.820 defend a someone who is weaker than they are regardless of whether they're male or female so

01:36:41.700 you you you're right that there are differences between men and women that generally result in

01:36:46.780 being stronger okay look but it's not necessarily the case look you're like six one two six one i'm

01:36:53.680 like five eleven five eleven okay okay so let's say let's say you uh are walk let's say you're dating

01:37:00.180 a woman who can beat you in arm wrestling and it's kind of funny like sure it's people know about it

01:37:05.540 they make fun of you or whatever yeah you're walking down the street yeah there's someone being

01:37:10.440 aggressed by a strong man let's say it's a smaller woman who's addressed by a man and you're across

01:37:15.480 the street yeah does she now have the obligation above you if she's stronger than me yeah so you

01:37:21.480 send your stronger who just she can beat you in a fight like a like arm wrestling she's she's beefier

01:37:26.620 than you she can break something that you can't yeah and you're going to say because of her strength

01:37:31.340 only she's gonna you send her to fight off the aggressor send her if she wants to go do that then

01:37:39.060 yeah no i'm saying no no we're not mean send her no no i don't have dominion no we're i understand

01:37:43.780 we're talking about obligations i'm saying when i say obligation fine then she would have the

01:37:47.620 obligation and you don't stronger if i'm not stronger than the other person who's beating the

01:37:51.940 person no no you don't know if you're stronger than the other person but you know that your

01:37:55.740 girlfriend in this case is stronger than you did they yeah she has the obligation yeah how is that

01:38:01.360 ridiculous if she didn't say it was ridiculous i'm just i mean i feel like you're trying i'm just

01:38:05.140 saying i'm just saying that to something i'm i'm pointing to that um that whoever's generally

01:38:11.960 stronger you're saying in your ideal society of feminism has the obligation okay yes okay i'm just

01:38:18.440 going to grant that generally men have the obligation to defend and protect the less because

01:38:24.760 they are strong yes general they're generally strong now um what does do women not not the

01:38:30.900 exceptional woman your girlfriend in this case not her most of the women are are frailer they're

01:38:36.780 petite uh they're they're not prone to fighting they don't want to fight they run from a fight

01:38:42.080 okay what what is their obligation to society uh pay taxes follow the laws provided they're just

01:38:50.120 like i don't what do you mean everyone has obligations so just exist yeah what do you what do you

01:38:54.800 dude dude you look i'm kidding i have it right i have written right here individuals have the same

01:39:00.640 rights equal opportunities and so on right you're trying to even the play the playing field we agree

01:39:05.660 that men have the obligation they they are the force okay they're going to determine what ends up

01:39:12.060 being law not they might have a war about it whatever men fight men if we accept that there's a duty

01:39:18.360 aspect there this is the biggest crucial element of feminism as a as a general worldview i don't know if

01:39:23.440 it's a fully fleshed out worldview but this is where it really thwarts people that i've debated is

01:39:27.940 like if we agree on that part with the men i asked you what's the obligation for women if you think

01:39:34.800 there should be some equal play here and you said guess what you said they just exist how is that

01:39:40.620 contrary women just exist and get all the benefits of society yeah that men provide sure and but yet

01:39:48.180 you're gonna fight against men being in power yeah well how is this ridiculous i don't expect

01:39:53.640 women to reward me for doing the bare minimum and not oppressing them like i just don't see you're like

01:39:59.260 women please reward me please look i'm protecting you you should really be grateful because i could hit

01:40:04.460 you at any moment like what the fuck feminine yeah women should be grateful to men not trying to tear

01:40:09.500 them down tear down the patriarchy why because i've already explained to the audience and you

01:40:13.800 feminism and everything you think it includes as entitlements relies on the patriarchy you should

01:40:21.000 act feminists should be pro-patriarchy they're pro-men not hurting women that is pro-patriarchy

01:40:27.480 you're still appealing to you know if you're defining patriarchy i don't you yeah you're in power

01:40:31.980 sure no power i mean what's men men having primary positions and not just physical power

01:40:38.320 in in institutions of and they can change that without with their force could and women can't

01:40:43.420 women could change it too by killing every one of their offspring well no that wouldn't that would

01:40:47.360 just change that would just change the number of people that existed it wouldn't change the fact

01:40:50.640 that men and men would die and then men would die out and civilization would yeah so women could kill

01:40:55.420 off so okay so here's we finally got to an obligation okay men under his feminist view men have the

01:41:02.920 obligation to uphold uh law society hold on defend rights defend the country because they're stronger

01:41:09.080 generally women have the obligation to not kill their offspring well women have an obligation not

01:41:16.500 to kill people generally same way men don't have an obligation to kill people hold on a second

01:41:20.100 is feminism mostly pro-killing your offspring or against it no you want to get into abortion

01:41:24.440 no i'm asking you a question is feminist the narrow the the feminist view is it is it sold as an

01:41:30.180 empowering thing a right to kill your offspring or not um i think it's considered a right to have

01:41:36.060 bodily autonomy yes okay so talk about it so if the men in this society we agree have the obligation

01:41:43.380 because of their strength collectively to defend rights and i ask you what does a woman have the

01:41:48.420 obligation to do it sounded like before they have the obligation to not off their offspring and

01:41:54.240 themselves and yet feminism under your own view is men defending women to have the right to

01:42:01.840 to have an abortion yeah to kill their offspring even though you just admitted that their obligation

01:42:06.440 is to not kill themselves shouldn't kill their born offspring they should born they they shouldn't

01:42:11.980 kill people who are outside of the womb okay so we're not reliant okay so when a woman's pregnant so

01:42:16.200 when a woman's pregnant a man has the obligation to defend her rights to walk around and do anything

01:42:22.020 and not get aggressed and defend her when she's aggressed by stronger people right and the obligation in

01:42:28.120 return is that she can still annihilate the baby hold on so if we want to get into a conversation

01:42:32.540 about abortion because i think it's very interesting no one has a right to use another

01:42:36.560 person's bodily organs without their consent that's on when does that happen what do you mean that's

01:42:41.980 how our society is structured okay cool so a woman who basically um so a woman who's sleeping and the

01:42:48.620 baby rolls over and and suckles on the teeth what is that informed consent or what do you what are you

01:42:53.380 talking about the woman's sleeping she didn't give consent to the baby rolling over and feeding on her

01:42:57.080 okay fine what does that have to do with anything you just said then if the woman doesn't want if a

01:43:01.240 woman doesn't want to breastfeed her child and obviously parents both men and women have an

01:43:04.900 obligation to feed their children okay if a woman doesn't want to use her body in order to feed her

01:43:08.420 children then she can find other ways to do so and if she doesn't want to feed her child she can put

01:43:12.520 it up for does the woman who's pregnant uh get the consent of the the fetus when it gives it her

01:43:18.240 necessary stem cells what do you mean well it's not an autonomous being what do you mean oh so it just

01:43:24.780 can't decide at all but it's it but the woman is still uh gaining types of nutrients for itself

01:43:31.020 from the baby what does it have to do with anything well you're saying no it can't be otherwise you said

01:43:35.520 no living being would you say living being has the right to take it without the consent because the

01:43:40.740 baby's not capable of giving consent well baby's not capable of giving consent when it's when it's one

01:43:46.860 week old either sure and i don't think you should i guess like so feeding a baby without its consent

01:43:52.700 is wrong no why would i say that it's wrong you just said you have no right to violate one's consent

01:43:57.760 you don't have a right to use someone's body bodily organs without their consent

01:44:02.660 their bodily organs yeah so kidney donation someone cannot forcibly let's say that you know

01:44:09.320 someone else needs your kidney to survive let's even say that you put them in a position where they

01:44:14.400 require your kidney for survival yeah as a society at least currently as we have structured it now

01:44:19.220 it's not legal for them to take that from you without your consent if you hit someone with your

01:44:23.520 car let's imagine and you know because of that you were driving recklessly and now they require

01:44:27.820 you know your kidney in order to survive the state can't obligate you to donate your kidney to them

01:44:33.040 you mean men sure yeah so again we're in a position where even your argument for consent being the

01:44:39.900 ethical norm is still wholly reliant on the disparity of force and power between men and women when have

01:44:45.200 i ever denied that that's like factually how things are but there's a difference between how things

01:44:49.480 are and how things should be i want to get to the should how do you determine how things should be

01:44:53.920 under feminism under feminism yeah because that's what's being defended tonight sure i'm defending

01:44:58.800 feminism on the view that i think it leads to better outcomes for everyone okay so why ought

01:45:04.140 okay who determines what a good outcome is under feminism under feminism i don't society in general

01:45:10.480 like i do and what are you what are you saying like we're trying to appeal to universal moral

01:45:14.420 standards here of like well i'm not saying all feminists agree on outcomes you probably debate

01:45:18.860 other feminists but it's like the if you're coming to the table and saying here's my idea of feminism and

01:45:24.280 here's how i think society should be structured from a feminist position right yeah um we already agreed

01:45:31.380 that struck uh society can only be structured in in in a way that actually creates disparity it's

01:45:38.040 descriptively so between men and women like that's the only way a society functions but what else are

01:45:43.380 you arguing ought to be the case men should not use their power to oppress women i don't know how

01:45:48.360 this is so hard for you to understand what do you mean oppress women to exert their will on women with

01:45:54.160 force just because you're stronger than someone doesn't mean that you should use that power to make

01:46:00.460 them submit to your will i don't see why wait how does that what i mean that seems to be happening

01:46:05.620 more more with men what do you mean yeah men should not also kill or coerce or i mean violence against

01:46:12.160 other men i mean women get a vote that not directly but indirectly uh a woman's position uh through a

01:46:19.080 vote could actually um result in men getting drafted sure i'm against the draft okay i'm against

01:46:25.760 the draft entirely i think it violates the 13th amendment's clause of involuntary servitude okay but

01:46:30.060 you would yeah okay so you would agree that that was that would be a violation of the man in that

01:46:35.040 case it shouldn't exist the draft shouldn't exist okay okay but that here's the thing is like if

01:46:39.960 you're can you think of an instance where the draft should exist no really i don't so i think you can

01:46:45.840 always incentivize people to fulfill that basic need so for example if people don't want to go to war

01:46:52.140 um pay them more um have have it so that when they come back from war they are provided better maybe

01:46:58.360 it would be less of an incentive to go to war yeah you don't know whether you're going to have a

01:47:01.720 fighting for honestly i think that the scenarios in which to draft the dire situation that a draft

01:47:07.340 would be necessary it was vietnam i don't think money would be the the last one was vietnam though

01:47:13.160 like that was a war that was a terrible decision to go to war over yeah well i mean if you don't if

01:47:18.920 it's i mean i'm fine with you just opposing the draft because some people they basically ask well

01:47:24.900 you know when is you know what where's the disparity and equality between men and women

01:47:29.880 you know descriptively i've already established that but that's one thing that we can always go

01:47:34.160 to where they're like well we'll then make it legal to draft women and we're arguing no you shouldn't

01:47:39.600 draft anyone like we we shouldn't want yeah i don't want that either now let's talk about um um

01:47:44.700 standards like if equality do you agree that when you argue opportunity we are you agree that uh

01:47:52.920 opportunities require capability right sure and if some people can't meet a standard then yeah they

01:47:58.680 should not be in that position should people lower the standards for equality uh lower the

01:48:03.060 standards let's say uh firefighter police officer davy seals no i don't think so you should not lower

01:48:08.220 standards however it doesn't there there is not a standard of brute strength in order to occupy most

01:48:14.100 positions in society that aren't enforcement based yeah i wouldn't i'm not arguing the counter to

01:48:19.360 feminism isn't necessarily arguing keep women out of things by force it's it's that it's countering

01:48:26.760 one one a descriptive claim that's false that assumes women have the same uh duties or even

01:48:32.800 power as men um and two the um what should the the question is a should versus a should should we

01:48:41.020 prioritize women uh doing what they're really good at well if it's the case that most when we're not

01:48:46.820 homogenous group i understand women all together but i'm going to reject that every time if it's the

01:48:52.000 case that women are mostly good at certain things i don't should we i don't think that's necessarily

01:48:57.840 true i don't think women are inherently better at taking care of children than men no they're not

01:49:05.020 inherently better no you don't can do that men can do that too well i'm not saying what it's not

01:49:11.940 capability like one or the other it's that is that is there a better scenario is it a better scenario

01:49:18.880 that men are put in certain um no duty positions than than others than than women is it better that

01:49:27.420 we have a fighting force that is comprised of the strongest individuals yes okay and if it turns out

01:49:32.600 that the strongest individuals because of facts of biology are overwhelmingly male then yeah but here's

01:49:38.440 the thing is if if the men we agree that if collectively men are best used um to be like the

01:49:48.020 the general enforcement arm in one aspect sure yeah okay but what's that for women because i'm not even

01:49:53.900 talking about duties anymore there isn't what is that for women isn't necessarily symmetry here you're

01:49:57.400 really not going to say that perhaps the equal um the equal parallel to men is raising kids no okay i'm

01:50:05.760 not so sorry so you're okay i don't think it's the case women are not i just don't understand how

01:50:09.980 from your feminist view that you're defending i'm not i just don't understand how you could

01:50:15.000 look at what's needed right now um as far as human beings and looking at it and and obviously coming to

01:50:23.720 the conclusion that what's demonstrated in the past is that women in the home raising kids

01:50:29.280 is a functional let's even go pragmatism it's extremely pragmatic for women in their nurturing uh

01:50:37.360 in their nurturing trait no to they're not more nurturing than men inherently biologically no

01:50:43.460 collectively uh because society socializes really in such a way yes oh they're socialized to do that

01:50:48.540 yes so women weren't nurturing before societies had like i don't know modern propaganda and all

01:50:54.180 stuff hold on what do you mean societal norms have existed without mass media so wait a second it just

01:50:59.660 happens to be the case that almost every society that we look at happens to construct women to be

01:51:05.840 nurturing mothers so i think the reason that women are often given that role is because of the

01:51:10.620 proximity to children that they have considering they grow them i'm not but that it's not that that

01:51:16.080 ought to be the case just because of that i didn't say ought i said is it better no not necessarily

01:51:21.680 why can't men men could raise the kids too okay so you think that a woman has a child it's better

01:51:26.840 for her to stay in the home or do an equal swap with them with them let's say let's say a husband

01:51:32.300 and a wife hold on hold on let's say a man and a wife have the same exact skill and ability to

01:51:38.020 to work a job yes a woman just has a child right yes all right and you're saying it's an either or

01:51:46.280 situation that he goes that she goes back to the job and he stay home correct whatever is whatever is

01:51:51.200 best for their preferences if it's just if the man wants to work um we would also depend on who's

01:51:55.760 who is better at raising the child and i don't think it's always the case that the woman would

01:51:59.180 be better okay there are some men that are more nurturing than women so if the man is better

01:52:02.900 capable of nurturing that child then the man should be the one to stay home well how would you know i

01:52:08.080 mean what if it what if the preference is to do it but he's not as good then i think there's always

01:52:12.960 going to be a trade-off between what's best for the child and what's best for the parents i don't

01:52:16.840 think that always we must do everything that is completely in the best interest of our children

01:52:22.200 to the utmost degree okay i'm gonna ask you hypothetical how would you know that your view

01:52:27.680 of feminism was realized what do you mean realized you know like actualized like right now for instance

01:52:33.080 you agree if there weren't people calling to abolish uh women having the right to vote that would be a

01:52:37.700 good start abolish the yeah but yeah but i already went over this like to get the right to vote they had to

01:52:45.400 suppress and silence women okay so what if women what if women collectively said we don't want hold

01:52:51.420 on hold on what if women because you're talking about what what your standard right now is that

01:52:57.580 the actualization one one instance of actualizing your view of feminism is that um women uh outright

01:53:04.920 have the right to vote what if women went against you and they said i don't want the right to vote

01:53:10.120 as a total then sure then i don't if if collectively women all come together and say they don't want

01:53:16.240 the right to vote i'm not going to stand in their way there's a reason we don't you know there's a

01:53:20.300 reason we don't see that right now okay so why why would then you be against a bunch of men getting

01:53:25.500 together and saying that women don't have the right to vote because they're taking away rights that

01:53:31.040 aren't their own wait no hold on if there's a group of women who got together and they dominated

01:53:36.560 uh collective there was like 75 80 percent of them hold on hold on then maybe hold on then maybe i

01:53:42.320 misspoke i don't think that i'd get then i don't think that people should be able to like vote away

01:53:48.240 rights of others yeah but why should why if you don't think you should vote away the rights of

01:53:53.580 others why do you think you should be able to vote in the rights of others what do you mean those

01:53:58.100 things could change you had a right to you had a right to own a slave at one point you're saying you

01:54:02.360 don't think you should have vote away the right for something hold on you don't believe that the

01:54:06.780 right to own a slave and the right to vote are two very a right is simply an allowance that's given to

01:54:12.060 people as an entitlement with no obligation that groups of men with guns allow or don't allow so

01:54:19.420 was there a time where technically you had the right to own another person are we talking morally are

01:54:24.760 we talking like descriptively sure if you want to if you want to talk about rights in the sense of

01:54:28.840 what was the case and was just the case then then yeah sure there was a there was a societally

01:54:34.340 recognized right but you own another but you said you said you don't have the right to take someone's

01:54:40.060 right away fine then if you want to argue that i'm being sloppy with language that's fine then sure

01:54:44.940 then if what's happening though if people do something and they take it away and they call it

01:54:49.580 a right then they call it a right i can't tell them not to call it something i can still say what

01:54:53.780 they're doing is wrong i understand do that yeah oliver i understand you're you're basically bound

01:55:00.720 to the language we have but if the thing you're appealing to is rights and we can point to rights

01:55:05.940 that are unjust i'm not sure what exactly you're defending rights and i'm appealing to people's

01:55:10.760 individual autonomy and well-being to make decisions about their own lives i don't i don't think other

01:55:15.520 people should be the dictators of what other people's lives are yeah but if if you don't think that

01:55:22.260 other people should dictate how other people's lives are if there's a whole group of people who

01:55:28.140 don't agree that rights exist you're going to count you're going to contradict that too what do you

01:55:33.420 mean if there's a bunch of people right now in the u.s who say i don't believe rights exist okay

01:55:39.280 you are going to be on the side that says no we're actually going to still use force and you could try to

01:55:46.160 behave as though rights don't exist and you could believe that but that's actually we're going to force

01:55:50.480 the belief of rights onto you right yeah we're going to force your beliefs good things over bad

01:55:55.520 things cool if i think it's a good thing like this is a thing yeah you're right it's just whoever has

01:56:00.340 the most power dude if your entire ethical paradigm just reduced here right now in the moment to

01:56:06.420 whoever has the power and their preferences rule out as long as you have the power to rule it out

01:56:12.280 you agree that under even your own standard that if a bunch of men got together and uh went back on

01:56:19.560 giving the women uh the right and they thought it was good if they could argue that it was good it

01:56:24.360 was even better for women than than they thought then you wouldn't really have uh it's totally

01:56:29.780 consistent with your ethical position right sure okay i guess i'm not fully understanding i'm i'm

01:56:35.740 asking whether it's consistent under your ethical system where the majority of people decide that

01:56:41.460 what's best is well we're going to actually go back on the 19th amendment and and women don't

01:56:46.500 realize it at the moment right but it's actually going to be better for them it's going to it's

01:56:50.360 going to make them safer it's going to make them happier if they really thought that they're wrong

01:56:54.160 i don't i don't i don't think we should be infantilizing people on the basis that men know

01:56:58.140 what's best for women i think that's just not no i didn't say they that it is like it could be or

01:57:03.360 couldn't be i'm just saying the activity of doing it is consistent with your ethical paradigm

01:57:08.320 that it wait that it would happen or that it should happen no that it could it wouldn't be

01:57:12.280 counter to your view what do you mean counter to my descriptive view or normative your standard

01:57:17.420 your normative view is this if a bunch of women decide we they don't want the vote and they

01:57:23.320 overpower overpopulate the women who think they want the vote they shouldn't then it's fine no then

01:57:28.020 they shouldn't vote if they don't want to vote don't vote no no they don't even want other women

01:57:32.580 to vote well no then why why are you trying to take away other people's ability to vote well no they

01:57:37.640 just want they believe that it's not a good thing okay then don't vote i don't i don't care if you

01:57:43.980 don't think it's a good thing i don't know why if someone is subject to the laws if someone is

01:57:47.820 subject to how they are being governed then they should be represented in that process yeah but

01:57:51.200 why why don't people under the system have the right to establish a majority view that informs law

01:57:59.220 that removes entitlements how does it remove entitlements how men's men's entitlement to have

01:58:06.780 dominion over women no dude any entitlement you look at is provided and can be overturned right

01:58:12.760 sure okay what do you i don't i don't really see you're just saying i get it whoever has more power

01:58:18.200 is able to do what they want what do we where do we go from here uh well what's interesting where we

01:58:22.800 go is if we both agree that descriptively it's the case that whoever has the power does what they want

01:58:30.000 the only question between everybody in the political spectrum whoever you debate libertarians

01:58:36.200 christians trumpers progressives commies the only question from my view is whose ethical paradigm is

01:58:44.560 informing the force is that fair i guess okay what okay cool yeah whoever has we we've established

01:58:54.320 the conclusion over and over whoever whoever can do what they want can do what they want we're at a

01:58:58.860 tautology here and i don't disagree with you that whoever has the most power can do what they want

01:59:03.480 the question isn't what can they do it's what they should do i know that's why i'm saying

01:59:07.680 ultimately all of these debates come down to including the feminist debate who should have

01:59:13.740 the power and whose worldview should inform the use of force sure so under a feminist view being that

01:59:20.420 here's here's another aspect of feminism that i've debated against that it doesn't have it doesn't

01:59:25.740 have a normative authority or or standard to say you're being a good feminist or a true feminist

01:59:31.060 right or a false one for instance i mean feminists disagree on so much that i don't really i don't

01:59:36.920 know i i also wouldn't claim to be the like authority on that's fine like just go out on a

01:59:41.600 ledge like if if if a feminist if a woman is like i think that a woman's proper role is in the home and

01:59:47.380 i don't think that she should have the right to vote and women who do that are going against being a

01:59:51.780 woman i would say that that's pretty counter to every single what if they said that what i'm pointing

01:59:55.740 to is there's that feminism itself is um is basically pluralism like even among feminists

02:00:03.120 like so if if a woman came to the table a tradition a trad mom right she can live in the home she can

02:00:08.340 say that's feminist right sure it kind of is because she's asserting her own choice and autonomy to do

02:00:15.400 with what with her life what she wants right so that is i guess yeah you can be a feminist and want

02:00:20.760 to be a stay-at-home wife right those two things are not so it could happen in the next 20 years

02:00:25.140 where feminism the the last stage of feminism as we know it could be back to the home right if women

02:00:32.740 collectively decided that that is what they wanted to do and they didn't think that other women who

02:00:38.800 didn't do that were somehow failing in their womanhood then sure could it be feminist to be

02:00:46.140 submissive to your husband if a woman wants to make that decision sure but it would depend on what

02:00:51.480 you mean by submissive it would be first would it would it mean that he you are kind of giving away

02:00:57.540 some permanent kind of stake that you have like so once you decide to be submissive to your husband

02:01:02.640 would that entail that you can never not be submissive or could you go back on that arrangement

02:01:06.760 and be like no you know what well i've been submissive to you for a while i've decided that this is not a

02:01:11.060 paradigm that i like hold on this is gonna do that well that that's why probably there's so many

02:01:15.520 divorces is that um i want to blame it fully on that but i would say individualism both from the

02:01:20.900 men and the woman perspective i think i think feminism is rooted in individualism and i think

02:01:25.960 individualism is actually uh uh basically a net loss for society because what you get is people

02:01:33.420 pursuing their own individual preferences wants desires above the any view of a collective and i would

02:01:39.840 call the family one of the more local collectives so and so i think that individualism in the home

02:01:45.860 for instance um i don't think people should be individualistic in the home i fully agree with

02:01:50.280 you okay people people should if they have children especially if they have families you should absolutely

02:01:53.920 prioritize the well-being of your family to an extent okay what if the man what if the man decides

02:01:59.060 what's the best well-being for the family is x and they vote this way and the woman having the right

02:02:04.580 to vote cancels out his vote well then yeah that's how it should be people should yeah they should just

02:02:10.200 cancel each other out yeah okay what do you what what how is that counter two people voting oppositely

02:02:15.900 do cancel each other out i know but it they represent the same house and people who represent the same

02:02:20.840 house can disagree i know but is it better that the heads of two houses are in disagreement i actually

02:02:27.240 would agree that i don't think it is which is why i think certain political differences that if you have

02:02:31.260 them you should not marry someone who contradicts your core values well i'm just wondering why would

02:02:36.280 it why would it be an advantage uh um to give the woman the vote inside the house and not just give

02:02:43.420 it to the man anyway like what would be the advantage what do you what's the advantage what's the advantage

02:02:48.660 of giving women the right to vote inside a house where it splits the vote the splits the because the

02:02:53.920 man could be wrong the man could be wrong about what he wants we should not assume that men know what's

02:02:59.460 best because they don't a lot of the time well i know but that you could just reverse that and say

02:03:03.300 the woman was wrong but but i'm saying what's the advantage though because because to me there's an

02:03:08.020 advantage there's even advantage for the man being wrong and there being a consequence to him being

02:03:14.100 wrong what's the consequence of him being wrong well if he if he votes on based on the house he's he's

02:03:20.120 the representative of the house right right no he's a representative of himself i'm sorry no you're

02:03:25.940 claiming no that's not true no hold on you're claiming whatever he does is therefore representative

02:03:29.560 of the house that doesn't mean that he's voting in the best interest of the house i didn't say the

02:03:33.220 best interest but he's certainly not representing just himself when you're a father you're going to

02:03:37.540 realize this right even loading voting at the local level you're going to realize that your influence

02:03:42.300 and your your voice to vote at the local level others i completely it's going to reflect on you

02:03:47.480 like you're basically speaking on behalf of your children sure and i don't think that adults should

02:03:53.840 inherently or like spouses should inherently speak on behalf of their spouses and take away the ability

02:03:58.580 for their spouse to speak for themselves yeah but why why should let's give women then then the woman

02:04:05.160 should be the rep there should be the representative of the house the woman only women voting i mean i

02:04:09.660 under why can't we do that instead well i what i would argue that women only voting like um i would

02:04:16.300 say if women only vote then women only fight wars no why does that necessarily have to well i would say

02:04:22.040 that the the vote and you can go back to even lord cromer uh who stated voting to conscription is

02:04:27.700 stupid well no i'm saying that i use that as the hyperbole i was just saying that um even very early

02:04:33.300 on when when women's votes were started to be the talk of the town very early on men realized and

02:04:40.340 vocalized that that um that women because they can't enforce the policy that they're voting for

02:04:48.660 they can't do it right they can't they can't enforce the policy they're voting for uh certain

02:04:53.960 weaker men can't no but men collectively can and women collectively can't okay then weaker men

02:04:59.560 collectively can so why that's fine that's fine they shouldn't be able to vote i fine i i concede

02:05:04.980 but okay then you're conceding that that why should women vote right if you understand this logic i'm not

02:05:11.480 advocating for everyone who's a man biologically should have a vote i would be the first to say who do you

02:05:17.240 maybe i don't think should have i should have a vote so who do we determine has the right to vote

02:05:21.060 well we in the past there was actually a set of variables and if you were white and you were

02:05:25.960 slave well no it doesn't have to be just that it could be it could be uh yeah it could be land

02:05:31.280 owning it could be like it makes sense though like look look look look look at it this way

02:05:35.220 does everyone in the company who works for the company uh get a vote on the board well some people

02:05:41.540 actually do believe that in terms of like you know democratize does it happen though

02:05:44.740 i mean ultimately no right no it doesn't because that's not not the economic system and and the

02:05:49.580 reason that is is because the people sitting at the table actually put skin in the game right so

02:05:54.400 there's risk well but they what risk are they putting forward well like sometimes they put money

02:05:59.120 they put resources and what happens if they don't well if they lose they lose that money they put and

02:06:03.860 then what do they do well they could vote or get kicked out or whatever i mean if they if if someone

02:06:08.600 puts forward risk yeah in terms of starting a business and something like that and it fails yeah and

02:06:13.860 their business fails what do they do start over start over or get a job yeah as as a laborer yeah

02:06:18.940 but so they're not risking anything that the other people who are already no it's still not no forget

02:06:23.500 it dude there's already a loss the fact that they can do something else doesn't remove the fact that

02:06:28.020 there was a lot i'm not saying what they're not losing i'm saying what's the loss for uh the the

02:06:33.180 person who has no skin in the game skin in the game is afraid you know the phrase right why don't

02:06:37.140 you think women have a skin in the game in the society that we live in they don't have a skin in

02:06:40.860 the game because they don't have to enforce anything i and this is the i think maybe this

02:06:45.600 maybe this comes down to this agreement we're getting at i don't think that shaping society

02:06:49.520 even fundamentally or primarily comes down to who is stronger i think ideas are so much why should

02:06:57.700 get a vote because she lives in a society and is subject to the laws no if the society determines

02:07:05.020 that she shouldn't have a vote that doesn't that's just circular i'm saying what do you mean

02:07:07.940 why is it the case that hawk tua why should andrew tate have a right to vote i don't know maybe

02:07:14.320 maybe he shouldn't okay so then what yeah you agree with me with the inquiry why is it that you have

02:07:19.620 an immediate defense to voting isn't it oliver possible that though our voting structure currently

02:07:25.200 sorry so you're just collapsing this into monarchy then monarchy i think monarchy is pretty cool okay

02:07:30.480 but but voting itself like certainly if voting meant that you were going to influence policy both

02:07:36.680 both domestically and foreign you would perhaps understand the system perhaps understand some

02:07:43.080 level of policy men don't i understand that that's why dude you already got me to concede that i don't

02:07:48.580 think most men should vote but certainly the men who have skin in the game no collectively men i would

02:07:57.160 say collectively men who who offer their body in service that they could die whether women offer their

02:08:03.740 body in service of birthing these men yeah that's the only leverage they have no hold on but that

02:08:08.200 seems like pretty powerful and important leverage right well no they can't enforce the rights though

02:08:12.900 yeah because voting no because voting hold on voting is their kids no that's not enforcing rights

02:08:18.120 how what do you mean how is not having a kid enforcing right i absolutely think it can be a very

02:08:22.460 powerful leveraging tool if we talk about it and what is it if like if women all collectively say

02:08:26.940 if you don't give i mean some people are saying if you don't give us the right to do this

02:08:30.360 then we're going to you mean the 4b not have children yeah 4b yeah they're all ugly no one

02:08:34.820 wants to have children with them wait a second that's not i mean it's true well but what is that

02:08:38.580 what does that prove that doesn't it proves that just like the suffragette movement who are a bunch

02:08:42.480 of goblins who couldn't find men okay all right okay just seriously okay what does that do it's just

02:08:47.480 what it just properly identifies the actual problem which is which is women who actually uh put

02:08:54.040 themselves out there with the hopes and the desire to be found by a man to be taken care of will in

02:08:59.200 return give them children raise their kids for them and then return be respected and be taken

02:09:04.700 care of largely society was this in fact what's so crazy about the feminist movement is that before

02:09:11.380 all these goblins came on the screen the scene is that women were actually revered they were protected

02:09:17.180 they were they were let out to be in the home and guess what guess what benevolent benevolent fine

02:09:22.780 it's fine benevolent slavery yeah benevolent slavery beautiful okay well could be i don't

02:09:28.200 know how we i don't know how we come to an impasse where do you think that certain people having their

02:09:32.220 autonomy restricted is how we it's not even by look it's not even there's only certain things that

02:09:37.940 are restricted by the way a society of rights and entitlements your autonomy is restricted all the

02:09:43.720 time oliver of course i'm not saying it's so what's the difference between in the street and in

02:09:47.120 the home dude what do you mean what's the difference between your autonomy being restricted

02:09:52.560 right here out on the street and a woman's being restricted in the home what is the difference between

02:09:57.340 if mine is restricted in the home why shouldn't mine be restricted in the home if a society is based on

02:10:02.400 restrictions of course it is then i don't understand why you're picking and choosing between one and

02:10:07.880 the other what's the threshold what's the what's the what's the um what do they call it yeah i think

02:10:11.980 you should have to pay taxes but i don't think people should be able to steal your bodily organs

02:10:15.740 okay like i don't i don't you know what i mean like this gets down to the whole libertarian argument

02:10:20.700 taxation is slavery i don't think taxing your labor okay but then there are certain therefore

02:10:25.280 then there are certain entitlements that are fair entitlement over the other things that you are that

02:10:30.220 you owe such as a portion of your income to ensure that society continues but you don't have to donate

02:10:34.480 bodily tissue or you don't have to donate your blood or something like that i mean i i myself i know this

02:10:40.140 is a feminist debate but i myself might actually violate uh consider violation of autonomy for for

02:10:47.760 certain things but i don't know exactly where that is but i'm willing and it is ambiguous but what we

02:10:52.940 can we at least hopefully agree on is there seems to be some line there there's we don't know exactly

02:10:58.140 where the line is but there right there is a certain balance between freedom and autonomy that exists

02:11:03.840 that society has to be okay but here's the thing what is being ultimately violated if you repeal the

02:11:11.040 19th amendment what do you mean what ultimately is like what's ultimately being violated like what's

02:11:17.880 the big they're right what's the big come up their right to have representation in the society in which

02:11:22.760 they live and that they are affected what do you mean representation they should be represented in the

02:11:28.780 government why should hawk tua be represented in the government taxes and follow the laws wait

02:11:33.760 second wait a second hawk tua can spit spit on that thing and and because hold on and because she

02:11:40.660 can spit on that thing and we live in a shitty degenerative society that prioritizes garbage no

02:11:47.120 what your view is because hawk tua i don't have to agree with hold on hawk tua can spit on it and

02:11:53.440 because she made some money on spitting on it that she should be able to know inform with her vote

02:11:58.860 things she doesn't understand most people it's not about understanding it's so you're saying

02:12:03.660 it doesn't matter to understand no because and i agree with you democracy is a fundamentally flawed

02:12:08.640 system it's probably trash okay but and this is what churchill said is democracy is the worst form

02:12:13.820 of government except for all the others there is not a better system there's not a better system out

02:12:19.300 there i don't know i mean you're saying sympathetic to monarchy then you are saying that you are

02:12:23.520 sympathetic to one person making those determinations well no uh you could have a monarchy and the one

02:12:28.660 person making the determination requires some external uh viewer paradigm that's higher than

02:12:33.780 them as a person who has preferences wait what do you like a christian monarchy okay the person at the

02:12:39.000 top the king um if he went outside the normative authority of of his ethics and he started to run

02:12:45.980 around with his preferences which would be an individualist uh view um then they wouldn't they you

02:12:52.500 like that's how you get rid of those people it's like you can have that right and it's not uh locked

02:12:58.400 into this view that you're just sitting on your own throne of preferences the way it's always depicted

02:13:03.140 right isn't it possible that a monarchy could exist that's informed by something larger than the

02:13:08.140 individual sitting in the seat ideally yes okay but i'm saying that there's no way to know that

02:13:13.560 that's not going to collapse into that individual i think they want and that's what largely happens

02:13:17.580 well it also depends on how long it takes to collapse for me because the topic is feminism

02:13:24.460 what i've seen since the feminist movement started in all of its phases and there are people on the

02:13:30.480 right wing the conservatives they're actually classical liberals who think well no the feminism

02:13:35.160 we have now is trash but the the early phase no i'm saying i'm saying it's all bad it's not good

02:13:41.140 for society because it results in more individualism and it collapses the integrity of what makes a

02:13:48.940 society and the integrity that makes a society is families okay if you were against individualism

02:13:54.280 which frankly i could say to an extent i am against as well you should be against it for men and women

02:13:59.780 well yeah it doesn't so then if men don't have the right if women don't have the right to vote

02:14:04.680 and exercise their preferences in that way then men should not have that right i i'm fine it's just

02:14:10.300 when you get to voting i'm totally fine with listing some sort of uh components or or attributes like

02:14:17.220 on a baseball card like yeah so then some of it would have to be an inform yeah informing things

02:14:21.040 so time out if some women were sufficiently informed and could pass a citizenship test which i'm sure

02:14:25.740 many can um do you think that yeah then they should have the right to vote no okay well then it's not

02:14:31.680 based on that well it'd be first it would be first the prerequisite is to be a man okay well then that's

02:14:37.120 just why uh because they're a part of the category where it could be the case where they're going to

02:14:43.700 actually um you know risk their bodies so the well women also risk their bodies yeah but it's not

02:14:49.680 yeah but i would make it a duty they don't have a duty to though this is where this is where don't

02:14:54.480 have a duty to have children no no sorry from my point of view christian ethical paradigm the duties

02:15:01.900 for men and women are different and because the duties are different their place in society and what

02:15:06.240 they're uh expected to do and where they find themselves are are they they vary from your

02:15:11.700 perspective which is largely sort of like a liberal um sort of like a like a individual it's still

02:15:18.500 individualism though it's like you want people to pursue their own personal wants and desires

02:15:23.120 regardless of what other people find uh appalling or like as long as it's legal you you go and do it

02:15:30.400 right no not necessarily i think that well i i mean i think there are there are certain things that can

02:15:34.500 be legal that i don't think people should do but i'm saying the result of that liberalism that like

02:15:40.120 that free liberalism the result of that like i think that feminism is largely intertwined with that

02:15:46.660 that view like like like for instance feminists aren't all um like ian rand fans or whatever but

02:15:55.160 but the thing is ultimately ultimately the thing is do is thou wilt right regardless of your duties

02:16:02.160 that's why the biggest criticism when you match up feminism with any other view especially religious

02:16:08.300 views that they don't have any duties and obligations well there's zero for men and women

02:16:14.520 there's nothing that grounds your duties well i think it's because in our society we don't have to

02:16:21.980 specifically ground duties in what people ought to do especially in with regards to reproduction

02:16:27.140 people want to have kids that is a innate biological desire of both men and women and men and women will

02:16:35.640 have children if they are given the opportunity to do so if they are given the financial resources to

02:16:41.240 do so you don't have to force them to do it that's just not how nobody said force yeah we're talking

02:16:46.100 about duties you don't have women do not have to be relegated to the home in order for there to be

02:16:51.440 children wait a second for there to be you keep using this force as if people are going to force

02:16:55.980 people we're talking about you're going to take the right to vote away no from take the right well

02:17:00.120 that you already agreed that that could happen and still be consistent with your view how no it

02:17:04.240 wouldn't yeah it would you already you already conceded that under your view if it were the case

02:17:08.540 that women collectivized and they said you know what we don't want the right to vote you said well

02:17:13.180 just don't vote no if the women voted to have it completely repealed that would be fair under the

02:17:18.820 democratic system you can vote yeah of course democracy can lead to authority how's that

02:17:23.500 inconsistent with your your view though it's not it's not inconsistent of course that's what i said

02:17:27.780 their own rights away yeah well absolutely okay cool so so if women agree here so well that's what

02:17:33.900 i'm saying if women could vote their rights away to vote if it happened men could vote their rights

02:17:39.200 yeah sure you should be fine with that right so i mean it wouldn't be ideal i'm saying in defending

02:17:44.940 democracy you don't have to defend every part of what could happen in a democratic system

02:17:51.060 democracy is the best version of government it can sometimes go astray and it can sometimes lead

02:17:56.660 to bad outcomes and we're not it's just saying that's that's part of the reality that we live in

02:18:01.540 unfortunately unfortunately that could happen yeah but even democracy itself is in a type of a

02:18:06.420 contradiction is what democracy itself is in a type of contradiction if it can't produce

02:18:13.180 something that's not itself what do you mean i'm saying that if democracy can produce all outcomes

02:18:19.860 except for ridding itself of democracy i mean it can okay it can but can it here it could the

02:18:26.200 question of whether it is it still democracy yeah people can democratically vote away their power

02:18:31.340 that's how hitler got into office okay so if it's still democratic right sorry maybe i shouldn't say

02:18:36.380 i think you can say that okay if if uh if that's the see i don't understand that seems to be like

02:18:44.080 something that's crucial to the view itself because every feminism is all downstream from uh you have

02:18:50.800 the entitlement and entitlements are down you know our rights and then rights give you this uh voice and

02:18:58.200 then the voice gives you a vote and the voice gives and then the vote gives you a policy and so on and so

02:19:02.180 on okay i i don't understand why we're under the assumption that this is something like worth

02:19:08.920 like would you would you die to defend this system defend what democracy voting just the whole system

02:19:15.300 against anything alternative that you didn't know the outcome of sure yeah i mean in terms of like

02:19:21.920 authoritarianism yeah okay and authoritarianism you would define how do you know you're in an

02:19:27.880 authoritarian system how i know i'm in an authoritarian system i guess when people's

02:19:33.240 constitutional rights are being violated um when uh you know individuals are not respecting the

02:19:38.900 checks and balances of the government that are currently being set up or are in place but aren't

02:19:44.320 those things authoritarian what do you mean they're those structures how are they authoritarian you can

02:19:49.120 have democracy with safeguards i'm not saying democracy is not direct when we talk about democracy it's

02:19:53.200 it's always a trade-off between absolute complete mob rule will get people and some safeguards to

02:19:59.920 ensure it doesn't go awry that's kind of what a constitution let's get to let's get and that's

02:20:03.440 kind of what the bill of rights is that's what the supreme court that's what i'm saying is like

02:20:06.700 everything is authoritative in the end and all everything every view you balance it i know but

02:20:12.060 that's that's where it comes into play is that if the topic of the debate is feminism is good for

02:20:17.560 society or not yeah i'm not i'm still not sure how feminism produces an ethical framework that anyone

02:20:26.200 should appeal to at all feminism doesn't produce an ethical framework feminism is just a description

02:20:32.540 of it doesn't produce an ethical framework it's based on an ethical framework okay but it just doesn't

02:20:37.840 produce it okay it's not a meta-ethical theory okay so there is there is a framework that's judging

02:20:43.080 feminism sure and you're saying feminism according to this view is good what's that view feminism like

02:20:51.240 what what is determining that feminism is good at a certain point some type of moral objectivism but

02:20:57.000 i don't know exactly what kind of moral objectivism that is so wait a second i can't hold on oliver

02:21:02.420 i can't justify the axioms of logic oliver if you're coming to a debate and saying feminism is good

02:21:10.680 for society yes feminism feminism is a type of an apparatus sure and the thing that's judging it

02:21:16.520 in this case you are holding the meta-ethical view is saying this is good for society so you are the

02:21:23.340 meta-ethical view right is it just your preferences no it's not i could be wrong and other i could i'm

02:21:29.280 not this this doesn't collapse into relativism because what your what any other kind of objective

02:21:34.400 view i mean one that appeals to god one that appeals to this just says yeah that's right because god

02:21:38.740 says it's right and therefore i'm going to ground it and it being right because of that so it's it's

02:21:42.840 masking this isn't that still better than a pluralistic feminism where uh two feminists could

02:21:48.660 coexist having completely counteractive preferences and still be called feminists you can have

02:21:53.360 counteractive preferences but what they would agree on is both of them are living valid expressions of

02:21:58.440 womanhood well i mean that that that would be agreement if one of them believes that the other

02:22:03.740 should be okay legally prevented from doing that okay or something like that then yeah then okay

02:22:08.620 they would not be a feminist okay so it sounds like you're now i don't want to say shifting is

02:22:13.820 like a like like you're dancing i'm just saying it sounds like what you're saying now is feminism is

02:22:19.980 about the expression of womanhood i mean it's the expression of i guess i don't know it's the expression

02:22:27.960 of saying that that people should not be defined by their sex or gender okay not be that they should

02:22:32.860 not have the rights they should not have their privileges like taken away because oliver if all

02:22:38.340 of the men in power we agree it's a collective of strong men they can't do that they shouldn't i

02:22:43.380 don't why are we holding these circles no no no hold on if all of those men declared that they were

02:22:49.060 women would it still be a would it still be men in power would it be still be men in power do you

02:22:53.860 want to get into the woman question is that what you want to do well i'm i don't know your view i'm

02:22:57.580 just wondering i don't if there's a group of of biological males who hold a position of enforcement

02:23:03.060 and power in a society if those you point to them right because the feminists are saying we're being

02:23:08.540 oppressed that's the whole point it starts with the assumption that they're being oppressed well

02:23:13.040 what are they being oppressed by by a patriarchy okay those are men right yeah well if men can be

02:23:20.000 not men we can we we can get into that i so i mean i don't i'd be happy i wrote a lot about this

02:23:25.100 idea like what a woman is and the reality is i actually don't think that it is possible to

02:23:30.080 provide a set of necessary and sufficient conditions for womanhood or manhood or what is a man or what

02:23:36.760 is a woman that includes all the people we would normally think of as women and all the people that

02:23:40.820 we'd normally think of as men so how would you and this is a really interesting question how would

02:23:44.100 you define a woman a woman someone who has the uh developmental pathways uh toward having ovaries and

02:23:51.780 giving birth even if they didn't fully develop okay so there are certain individuals who don't

02:23:55.640 have that because they know the pathway is always there the pathway isn't necessarily yes it is have

02:23:59.540 you heard of something like there's something like swire syndrome so sawyer syndrome no the the pathway is

02:24:04.060 always tilted one direction or the other one is tilted towards male in that case i can provide the

02:24:08.920 case of sawyer syndrome for you because i had it down as an example so um sawyer syndrome these

02:24:14.660 individuals have x y chromosomes but during development the sry gene responsible for sex

02:24:19.560 differentiation doesn't activate meaning these individuals have external female genitalia

02:24:23.940 and have present but underdeveloped uterus and fallopian tubes puberty will not occur in these

02:24:28.680 individuals unless they're given hormone replacement are you pointing to the um x y as the no i don't i

02:24:35.120 don't appeal to that i understand that people have to i don't appeal to x y people would be some

02:24:38.980 people who are no some people are x y would be classified as women under your view well no they were

02:24:44.220 looking at the pathway of development not x y sure so then because even though they have x y there is

02:24:50.860 a pathway because of the lack of the yeah to categorize yeah to properly categorize yeah it is a binary in

02:24:57.660 the end they'd be categorized as women okay i mean i'm i'm still working out my exact view on but the

02:25:03.940 thing is the thing is i know you've you're probably debating this stuff a lot it it is relevant to

02:25:08.740 feminism because we're in a phase now where if everything you thought was oppressive that was

02:25:13.980 based on a binary of male and female but you call that binary men men are oppressing me you'd those

02:25:21.080 people would have to remove the term men and say males are oppressing me only right well i think that

02:25:26.460 men can still track something about about males yeah sure like i don't i think it can still track

02:25:32.480 something without it exactly do you do you think that there's actually a difference between a female and a

02:25:38.000 woman i think societally there can be i because i for example i think there's different definitions

02:25:43.540 we can use for words so i think that we can consider woman like almost every definition or

02:25:48.400 every word that we use um has multiple definitions to it like that that just is the case but the question

02:25:54.620 is when someone says oh they're a female but they're not a woman you accept that i think that it would

02:26:01.140 depend on what they mean but because a woman and man can also be like gender terms and someone is more

02:26:05.580 manly or less manly i think women and men are well yeah like feminine gender i think you're referring

02:26:11.160 to like feminine and masculine because you're referring to a referent but if someone says it's

02:26:16.780 a construct like completely yeah my criticism of all of that stuff uh you know the matt walsh guy

02:26:23.840 started the trend by just saying what is a woman whatever but in ultimately i'm pointing out that

02:26:28.980 there's not really a referent for it what do you mean like a referent out in space that you can point

02:26:34.700 to that's this thing called woman the thing that you're pointing to ends up being biologically

02:26:39.060 informed like traits femininity daintness dainty i think there can be some ambiguity there but it

02:26:45.920 doesn't mean like nothing exists for example like i don't i i don't think that just because we can't

02:26:51.100 pin down like exactly kind of what it like essentially means to be but someone should be able to because

02:26:56.700 if they said and you're not taking this position hard by the way um is that um if someone said

02:27:03.460 no female is not the same as woman you're talking about sex we're talking about gender that's the

02:27:08.800 common on all the tiktoks right i asked this question i'll ask you just because i'm not i'm

02:27:13.680 being charitable with you because it doesn't sound like you're you take a really hard stance on this

02:27:17.300 but just to answer the question because it's funny um can a female be a trans woman can a female be a

02:27:27.860 trans woman i'm i'm not i think largely my understanding of trans women are individuals

02:27:34.580 who are biologically male who identify as as women so i guess no in a sense well yeah because

02:27:41.420 if they were different it should be yes right like if they if female wasn't identical to woman

02:27:48.200 the answer to the question can a female be a trans woman the answer should be yes well no can a female

02:27:54.400 be a biological male who identifies as a woman no because she's female well then we're reducing

02:28:00.720 this is my point is that it reduces back to sex that's the thing that you're looking at as a

02:28:05.560 referent not the if it were true that uh neither male or female is equal to man or woman they they

02:28:12.640 can be swapped each of those because they're not identical to each other at all they're totally

02:28:16.500 different categories then it would follow that a female biological female could be a trans woman

02:28:22.480 they just simply declare it so they declare they identify as a male who became like it like i don't

02:28:29.560 look and this i mean we're the rules i know look i don't i don't claim to be an authority on this and

02:28:34.080 i don't really my understanding of it is i don't and i i think people who say like sex is changeable

02:28:39.100 like i don't agree with that no it's not it's not well they're starting to say that they didn't

02:28:42.640 always say that but now it's i think there are people who are saying like sex is mutable or something

02:28:46.220 like that i don't i don't i don't agree with that i think that so so i don't think that someone

02:28:50.360 can say that like i identify as a biological male because that's not a category that relates to

02:28:57.560 identity like those are kind of fixed biological facts and i don't i don't think it is i think

02:29:03.700 someone can identify more or less with being a man or being a woman the reason i asked the reason i

02:29:09.400 asked is that if you're coming to the table and arguing for feminism and the argument for feminism

02:29:15.020 necessitates that there's an oppression happening and we've established that um then once you get

02:29:22.640 into the territory where there's ambiguity of what a man and a woman is then you don't have much to

02:29:30.040 argue in regards to correcting feminism i don't think that's true because you're basically arguing

02:29:35.100 is because we can't point to an exact definite line between you know man and woman or an exact

02:29:41.100 definitive point therefore the difference is meaningless kind of right is that kind of what

02:29:45.760 you're well if there's no distinction sorority if there's no distinction yeah familiar with the

02:29:50.120 sorority's paradox this idea that it's kind of the same thing of like the fallacy of the pile in a heap

02:29:54.500 or something like that like oh like how many grains of sand make it yeah like a wave yeah all these

02:29:59.580 things i understand and you don't have to say that oh it's exactly this many grains i know but say

02:30:04.460 there's a difference between the two so i think there's a difference between women and men

02:30:07.880 and i don't know if i and i don't think we have to necessarily go down to like an anatomical

02:30:13.220 level in order to kind of i understand i know you're saying that you don't have to but i think

02:30:18.560 that if you're going to claim that there's a thing called feminism and feminism doesn't apply to

02:30:26.100 men or males it's specific to what you're calling feminism and feminism is this counter to this other

02:30:33.780 power structure what's ironic and kind of wild is that the the whole like um you know i guess

02:30:41.100 peterson would be like the post-modern people changing all the things you know that is leading

02:30:46.800 people to not being able to argue for the injustice because the distinction doesn't exist i don't sure

02:30:52.420 and i don't look i'm not you know you you have to ask other people this because that's not a position

02:30:57.600 that i necessarily hold but here's what i would here's what i would say in response just a little bit

02:31:01.260 is when we're talking about like i think it's still possible even if maybe you don't agree that

02:31:06.880 trans women ought to be classified as women in the sense that like i don't know how we ought to

02:31:12.220 consider a woman i think that if people consider them women they could experience a type of oppression

02:31:18.580 that women face because they're well because because they're viewed that way for example here's a

02:31:21.960 really good example no someone someone can um experience um did um discrimination on the basis of

02:31:27.900 sexual orientation even if they aren't gay so let's assume that at work someone assumes you're

02:31:32.120 gay because you've got a margarita shirt on or something like that and they're making you know

02:31:35.500 bad like let's even say someone fires you on the basis of that they're like you're wearing a

02:31:39.260 margarita shirt it must mean you're gay i hate gay people i'm gonna fire you okay it's true that

02:31:42.920 you could face that would basically kind of be you as i'm assuming you're straight or you straight

02:31:46.920 you would be experiencing actually homophobia as a straight person so it could actually be

02:31:52.040 possible that a trans woman would experience misogyny i understand what you're saying but

02:31:56.800 there's a truth of matter though sure of that of that scenario that's that's where it gets into

02:32:04.020 trouble like for instance there are people who were who have this uh experience that they don't

02:32:09.860 have a limb right i forget what they call it yeah alien yeah alien limb syndrome or something so they

02:32:13.460 have this right and so if they have this experience yeah let's say i discriminate against a person who

02:32:21.000 actually doesn't have a limb right okay over there i just like don't ask them for help that's like a

02:32:27.660 form like maybe they want me to ask them for help because they don't want to be like a burden or

02:32:30.960 whatever but i don't i discriminate i just said oh the legless person i'm not going to ask them to

02:32:34.980 help me okay there's a person next to them that believes they declared it so that they identify as

02:32:41.200 not having a leg and they're offended that i didn't find i don't affirm okay see that's the

02:32:47.040 i use that i fine and look and i'm gonna probably say something that people on the left i think well

02:32:52.700 i i think there is a level of kind of like i don't craziness is the right word but i don't know

02:32:58.140 accepting people expecting people to accept things that they intuitively see is just not the case

02:33:03.940 immediately without question and just like dig just if you and if you don't accept that you are

02:33:10.800 a bigot and you are bad i guess i i'm against fair enough okay i'm against i don't and i don't think

02:33:15.080 so and look i the the trans issue is something that frankly i try to stay away from mostly because i

02:33:21.480 don't it's not that i'm like scared to speak on it because i think that i'm going to get canceled by

02:33:24.920 the left it's rather i don't i don't really think that there's much value i can provide to the

02:33:32.440 conversation in terms of like what i don't i don't know like is it possible that biological

02:33:37.120 males can feel like they are women i don't know i don't know sorry sorry about that i i don't know

02:33:43.500 because i'm not a biological male who feels like a woman so i don't have that experience so i think

02:33:48.760 i think gender dysphoria is a real thing this is what this is what this is what i have a problem with

02:33:53.680 okay okay so there are people who say my son feels like a girl yeah okay yeah i don't yeah i don't

02:34:02.140 agree with that okay but then i would ask even the the person who's young or the person who's old

02:34:06.820 they could be wrong i would ask how do you know what it feels like to be a girl

02:34:10.140 um i think people look i don't i think if people like know what it feels like to be a girl i think

02:34:16.720 especially those younger ages kids say stuff that like oh yeah i thought i was a i thought i was a

02:34:21.740 monkey of course i told my parents and i think i think it's possible also that if boys are expressing

02:34:26.380 they want to be a girl they might just actually be expressing i like girls and i like girls they could be

02:34:30.960 so i so i'm a i'm i guess not of the view that like if a if a young boy expresses anything a desire

02:34:38.560 to be in accordance with anything that is typically associated with the female sex that we should

02:34:42.380 start treating him like a woman or start identifying him right a woman right but that's the thing is

02:34:47.980 like um to bring it back to feminism at least you acknowledge in order to have feminism you at least

02:34:55.560 need uh a little bit more of a rigid position on categories between men and women because otherwise

02:35:01.860 you couldn't argue that women are being oppressed if you can't tell me what any of those are well i

02:35:06.800 don't i i i can understand the kind of appeal of that kind of like framework like how how can you be a

02:35:13.940 feminist if you don't even know what a woman is but i think that it's also true that you can

02:35:17.800 acknowledge that there's there is ambiguity between categories that they're the kind of is and there

02:35:22.680 maybe might not necessarily always be a fact of the matter that we can like no like i don't know

02:35:27.960 like how many how many grains of sand does it take to make i don't i think because i think because you

02:35:33.180 can point to a some threshold where you might find ambiguity i don't think that's what's going to

02:35:39.380 inform all of our decisions it's more so that we're going to be informed by typical things right we

02:35:45.940 don't we like like it might be the case we all see the red green and uh yellow lights at the stop

02:35:52.240 sign differently but all some threshold uh some some frequency of those reflections but that

02:35:58.380 wouldn't it wouldn't follow that we suddenly have to come up with names for each of the different ways

02:36:03.140 and we see the yellow for everybody right sure so that's why i'm thinking like well my view which

02:36:09.240 is counter to feminism is based on uh what's typical and what's typical um that's why forced

02:36:15.880 doctrine is argued so well is because you're arguing for what's typically the case descriptively

02:36:22.100 you're not making a claim that it ought to be that way but feminism if it counters how it actually is

02:36:29.240 i think the the strong statement i make is that feminism is actually a lie it's actually lying to

02:36:34.800 women i no i i don't look i i don't i really i really don't see and you know you can try to explain

02:36:41.700 again how you're getting from the descriptive claim that you know because men are stronger

02:36:47.740 they will like always be appealed to with force or like because they have force they will always

02:36:53.680 need to be appealed to that that is like that that that in and of itself means that women should not

02:37:00.800 have like the same opportunities to certain things i'm not look i'm not saying that women should have

02:37:05.340 equal access to the military and we should completely absolve all standards to include them like that's not

02:37:10.340 i think that's not what i'm getting at but i think there are certain fields for example like i i don't

02:37:14.580 buy the idea that there are significant scientific differences between the intellects of men and women

02:37:21.540 that justify excluding them from fields like the sciences so some of the data i was bringing up that

02:37:26.320 i thought was important was that when there are mixed gendered teams it leads to more innovative

02:37:30.440 research novel research and it leads to the the research being more influential and i think that's a good

02:37:35.480 thing and that's why i think we should encourage more women to be involved in science men to be

02:37:39.900 involved in science collaborate together do you want the smartest women to multiply themselves

02:37:44.240 smartest women i think people in general yeah i think i think i think it's good for individuals to

02:37:50.560 okay well that's the thing is like even if you no one's arguing women we should stop it and they

02:37:56.920 stop them from doing all these things it's just that what's happening is that the culture has reached

02:38:03.220 a point where there's been so much shoved down the the men and women growing up in in uh public school

02:38:10.300 that there's this like equality thing and then and then women should go pursue their dreams and

02:38:15.960 there's they're steered away from childhood absent the parents at home countering what they're

02:38:22.340 for they're they're learning in school but let me just finish this is that if you just said well

02:38:28.340 there's a bunch of smart women there were exceptions and i think they should be in the stem fields and i think

02:38:32.100 i don't think there are exceptions though whatever it is well no there's no there's smart people are

02:38:36.120 exceptions for men and women in those fields the question i'm having is even if you found the

02:38:41.020 smartest people wouldn't it wouldn't it be beneficial for them to have children instead not instead no

02:38:46.400 not instead up to a point you're gonna have to figure out what's more important for women men and

02:38:52.100 women are different in they're in different positions the reason is it's not just the force

02:38:56.540 doctrine it's that women for them to fulfill uh on what let's say want to have kids for them to

02:39:04.760 fulfill on there is a time period for men there's not as much well i think i think it would be

02:39:09.860 beneficial to societally impose that type of time period so for example i think paternity leave should

02:39:15.860 be something that is more widespread i think that what about permanent oh paternity oh no i i'm

02:39:22.080 saying i thought you meant maternity no paternity i think men should take time off work to be with

02:39:26.800 their kids as well i think that's important i think men and women should spend time with their

02:39:31.200 kids in their formative years i think that's beneficial so no you're just permanent maternity

02:39:36.100 leave no i mean yeah you don't want women to work i i want yeah i think i think i think there should

02:39:40.920 be a massive because you think it's all force and i'm not arguing that most of the people i argue

02:39:46.040 with uh who are on my side of the this uh argument aren't talking about force they're talking

02:39:51.620 about reinstating massive levels of of propaganda essentially right that that shows the beauty

02:40:01.200 and the joy and the fulfillment of mothering for women to see in opposition to what they mostly see

02:40:09.640 why are they seeing that right now seeing the opposite yes what do you mean because the arm of

02:40:15.840 propaganda is left-leaning and progressive that's sure but but why why is that the pushback why are

02:40:21.680 they seeing messages of you can be whatever you want you can go out you can do because of disney

02:40:26.900 because of disney why are why are people doing that why would people i guess on my who are sympathetic

02:40:32.600 to my view feel it is necessary to tell women hey you can have a career because you cannot center

02:40:38.740 your life around your children and that's okay it's because before that and i guess you want to

02:40:43.920 return to that is a view where it is very you should center your family i'm saying that's

02:40:48.840 inevitable i'm saying that the return to that is inevitable because you run out of people

02:40:54.580 yes we're running out of people okay is it possible oliver hold on is it possible that

02:41:01.080 people like you and the whole bullhorn of academia and hollywood coming down on the women and saying

02:41:07.520 go be a boss babe don't be a wife that's so weak uh portraying hold on hold on let me finish you're

02:41:14.140 portraying them portraying these women as dumb weak right nope uh submissive this is bad right

02:41:21.440 well maybe it's a good thing for women to be submissive you'd ever hear that feminist argument

02:41:25.460 wait why is that the case hold on because if women want to be submissive they why is it missing

02:41:32.540 from the feminist machine propaganda machine that being submissive could be feminine empowering

02:41:37.500 i don't actually think it is it's oh really yes absolutely i think that from largely from feminism

02:41:44.000 what it says is that women should have agency in the choices they make here's a really good example

02:41:49.120 of it and i don't know how much we can talk about this because it kind of gets raunchy but i think a

02:41:52.680 big um a big part of this is kind of like fetishes and things like that and things like people like so

02:41:57.300 for example some women you know like to be degraded in that type of sense in a sexual setting

02:42:02.300 we don't view that as anti-feminist because they're making a choice to do something that

02:42:07.080 they enjoy which is engage in a type of fantasy however it's entirely still based on their

02:42:13.200 scent and based on what they want so in that sense this is exactly the point is that feminism

02:42:20.100 uh you're calling it an apparatus that's judged by an ethical paradigm right now you're talking about

02:42:25.400 your ethical paradigm about feminism your own ethical paradigm that's judging feminism would

02:42:30.220 would allow for basically posthumous sex with a cadaver so long as it was consented what do you

02:42:35.740 mean posthumous after death like like like if someone consented to their body being used

02:42:40.560 afterwards and there was no harm that would be fair game that actually i mean that that kind of is my

02:42:45.440 philosophical worldview i do take a very harm-based approach and it does have some counterintuitive

02:42:50.300 implications you know i i think that there are instrumental reasons i've actually had a lot of

02:42:55.040 conversations within philosophy just about this in particular it might be instrumental reasons why we don't

02:42:59.080 want to do that but i don't think there's something like inherently wrong with it great so if your

02:43:03.160 if your worldview that's telling the audience why feminism is good includes maybe large amounts of

02:43:09.800 companies renting out cadavers and that being totally fine in the same paradigm uh why would you mean like

02:43:15.600 people renting out dead bodies basically some of some of the worst atrocious behaviors whether it's

02:43:22.020 after you know you cadaver stuff or um the rise in pornography with young girls basically one out of

02:43:29.620 ten women from like 25 to 30 have a only fans account because they're told it's empowering dude i think the

02:43:37.140 reason no hold on i think the reason that they're told that it's empowering is because it is it is what

02:43:42.420 it is it's a pushback against is it empowering what is it empowering i don't i'm not them i don't know it

02:43:48.180 depends on the should we how it depends on the woman look oliver oliver wait if you're gonna you

02:43:53.300 look look look look i'm a new i'm a father right you're treating women homogenous hold on i'm a

02:43:57.700 father here no no i'm talking to you to a single model hold on i'm a man okay i'm coming to you

02:44:03.380 yeah i'm gonna hey oliver i heard your feminist views i want some uh i want some advice when should

02:44:09.460 i tell my daughters to if it's empowering to them when should i tell them about their option of being

02:44:14.820 only fans hold on what when did we say that it was necessarily empowering i asked you you didn't

02:44:20.260 answer because it isn't because you can't should we teach it it should be an option for women

02:44:28.100 it's when should we teach that as an option you know what you know i asked this hold on oliver

02:44:31.940 because you just said three minutes ago you said people like me are coming in and saying you can do

02:44:37.380 this you can do this you're a bunch of snakes on the on the on the tree right and eden so you're going

02:44:42.580 going you can do this you can do this think about this why don't you include pornography

02:44:47.940 if women want to do pornography that's fine yeah but why don't you advocate for it i think we should

02:44:52.740 teach it as a legitimate form of you know work when absolutely because because because my kids

02:44:58.840 my kids hold on my kids ask me what i do for work they ask uh what does other people do for work

02:45:04.140 right at what age you should you should be honest with them like i don't know if you're on these shows

02:45:08.660 and for example like the whatever podcast and you're on the show and your kids ask you hey what

02:45:12.420 a lot of these girls do what do you tell them no i'm not answering that question okay so i mean i

02:45:16.900 in a sense i guess then you're lying or withholding information uh yeah withhold information because i

02:45:21.220 have to protect the my my kids right i think so so the question is when when mommy comes home from work

02:45:28.340 right and they have school day right because this is what you're actually advocating for i don't think so

02:45:33.220 mommy goes to school with with kid day and they get to talk about what they do for work okay you're

02:45:40.180 totally fine with the mother going to school at whatever age let's say it's like fifth grade we're

02:45:45.220 not taking off all her clothes jesus no no telling the kids what they do in explicit detail no well what

02:45:51.860 do you mean why not what do you because we know why not oliver what do you the girls need to know

02:45:57.700 how they could be liberated no but i'm not saying that's inherently liberatory for women it doesn't

02:46:02.500 inherently liberate them but it also doesn't inherently make them not oh really i agree no

02:46:06.580 here we go let me say this i do think that it is a problem of people being pushed into these fields

02:46:11.860 because it's an easy way for them to make a dollar and probably a lot of them don't find

02:46:16.180 it fulfilling i would agree with you on that however i would disagree in making this generalized

02:46:22.420 statement that none of them find it fulfilling or it being a thing i don't care what they think is

02:46:27.540 fulfilling or not the question is you're deciding what's best for them over over them yeah yeah is it

02:46:32.980 possible is it possible that possible for that they're wrong it is also possible that you are

02:46:37.380 wrong so when it comes to decisions about someone's life i'm going to defer to them oh really what about

02:46:41.780 when they're children what i'm not saying that you should let people say these all over oliver i didn't

02:46:47.780 ask about talent saying it to children you said when you are talking about what other people should do

02:46:52.820 with their bodies or not you're going to defer to them i asked about children what does a thought

02:46:57.540 what do you mean about what does a father do of course you can protect your kids i'm not saying

02:47:01.300 don't protect your children okay but the thing is if being a father of your home means um guiding

02:47:07.300 and intervening on the path of your child then the best thing about about being a father is is

02:47:13.700 actually the intervention part on what they quote want right i'm not gonna tell my kid to be a porn

02:47:19.220 star i'm not trying to fight that bullet i didn't ask you that because the the question is

02:47:24.580 right you are making the claim that when it comes to other people and they what they want to do i'm

02:47:31.620 not going to come in and say they shouldn't do it i'm not here's here's how i would view it i am not

02:47:38.020 a woman and i don't i would not view sex work as something that i would want to do because of that

02:47:42.900 and because i don't understand it i would not tell my kids to do something that i don't understand

02:47:47.860 and isn't if for example i don't know if for example i don't know i have a family member and

02:47:52.980 they are in that industry and we have conversations about that and they tell me and my kids want to

02:47:57.780 learn about that from this family member i would i would i would i would want to be present in that

02:48:02.340 conversation so that i can you know okay i think what you're saying is not true in this way and we

02:48:06.580 should have a full holistic picture about this but i don't think that like we should withhold

02:48:12.180 information from like children in in the sense that they should we can teach kids about sex how

02:48:18.900 do you teach teach kids about sex and and about you know the importance of consent the importance

02:48:23.860 of that we don't have to teach them to be poor tell me tell me i don't think this is i didn't even say

02:48:27.700 like i'm asking why in your view why wouldn't you say why wouldn't you teach that if you were to say

02:48:34.820 if you were to advocate for a young girl to go into stem would you do that yeah okay what i'm not i'm not i'm

02:48:41.140 not trying to and this is you're not going to pin me into this corner i know i'm not trying to

02:48:45.380 argue that all forms of work like societally are seen as like equally liberatory dude it's simple

02:48:52.900 it's so so simple your view of feminism is women having the choice to do anything that's quote legal

02:48:58.820 right no no that's not true why not what do you mean legal how's that not empowering from your

02:49:03.140 view i think there are some things that are legal that women shouldn't do like what um i think that

02:49:08.020 for example people can have moral obligations so for example i would say that um if my if a woman

02:49:14.020 in my life had a family member who had a very serious condition and they needed a blood transfusion

02:49:18.820 in order to survive and the woman in my life was uniquely qualified because of blood type or something

02:49:22.900 like that i would probably tell her you should you should you should help them out you should do

02:49:26.500 that you should you know help them out in that way it wouldn't be legally it wouldn't be legally

02:49:30.580 if they could should not be legally obligated to do that but i think morally they would have

02:49:33.940 what about a shouldn't they shouldn't do that no no no what about give me an example of a shouldn't

02:49:38.580 something women shouldn't do or i but i hear i would apply it to men and women so i'm not making

02:49:43.300 like the women shouldn't do this like because they're women it's women shouldn't do this because

02:49:47.300 their people and people in general should not do this so for example i don't think doing hard

02:49:51.380 drugs is a good thing i don't think doing heroin is probably a good thing for most people um so

02:49:56.500 i would i would advise women and men to not do that that doesn't therefore follow from it that i

02:50:00.660 think it should be illegal for a lot of other instrumental consequences that i think would

02:50:04.100 follow from laws of that nature i think it would make the problem worse so yeah there's an example

02:50:10.420 wait is that the same reasoning you you were against you were against making post-death cadaver sex

02:50:18.020 illegal because there's some other things that might make it worse like i mean so this is this and

02:50:23.940 it's it's really hard to have like like like meta philosophical conversations on these types of

02:50:29.460 podcasts because what's going to happen is if i try to defend my philosophical view on its merits

02:50:34.820 you're going to blow it out of proportion and be like he supports people fucking dead well people

02:50:38.900 and it's just like it's not no i don't say support i'm saying allow i don't i didn't say it i just

02:50:46.020 asked you under your view if it's based on harm principle i don't think people should do it

02:50:50.740 and and here and the reason i don't you make it illegal though what i think it probably would be

02:50:55.300 illegal and the reason for that and the reason for that is because i think there's a very very

02:50:59.060 very very high likelihood of instrumental harm um for example i don't think people want their dead

02:51:04.820 loved ones to well that's true but unless they made a lot of money and then the harm was countered

02:51:11.780 in their view because if they're alive well yeah if the family got together and said hey grandma's

02:51:17.620 coming over you know she's on her way out and she wants to talk to us and she says i want to i'm

02:51:22.900 gonna do this for the family do what uh basically give her body out after death for a week to for

02:51:29.060 anyone to rent it out or whatever and the family goes cool we'll be rich like hawk to a and it's

02:51:34.500 kind of weird weird isn't isn't really a counter to whether it's consistent with your ethical paradigm

02:51:39.620 yeah and here's the thing is i don't use weirdness as a criterion for what i think should be

02:51:44.340 prohibited like i don't i don't i don't know there's a lot of cases of what is called moral

02:51:49.780 dumbfounding where we think something is wrong but we can't point to a specific reason as to why

02:51:54.100 it's wrong so yeah this this is this is weird i don't i don't know i'd be like okay let's put it

02:52:00.660 another way do you think under your ethical framework people can act against themselves and it be morally

02:52:06.340 wrong doesn't harm anyone else just just all self-contained i i would say yes but it's because

02:52:15.620 what they do i don't i don't believe it is like a lot like possible to live in a universe where

02:52:21.060 what you do like self-regarding actions i think everything you do has an effect it's like doing

02:52:24.740 drugs okay should you be able to do these hard drugs like well probably maybe you shouldn't because it

02:52:29.940 will still have these effects well that's that's why i asked about the the what i call an epidemic of

02:52:36.740 young girls and by the way men are still part of this uh the consumption element of it but girls think

02:52:43.700 these young girls are being basically trained through feminism first right this is this is the

02:52:48.560 result these are the fruits of feminism teaches feminism early on uh you're gonna have a radical

02:52:53.720 change you're gonna have the the sexual revolution you're gonna have the drug revolution and then you're

02:52:59.460 going to part ways with the traditional lifestyle of christian values and ethics in the home so then

02:53:05.060 what happens is you get this mass amount of technology you know to express yourself you run you run

02:53:12.520 head first hold on fair enough head first into it and now they think because of all of the the the

02:53:19.500 propaganda the pop stars they're all they're all disgusting right you're and so now the little kids

02:53:25.620 the the poor little girls go well that's how i have to be now right think no and that's all feminism

02:53:31.260 dude that's not traditionalism that's feminism and i think you're doing a very good job

02:53:36.520 at portraying feminism in its worst possible light where's the good where's the good one hold on the

02:53:42.820 good one is encouraging women to be doctors the good one is encouraging women to go into those

02:53:47.840 careers why would that be why is that better than pornography from your why is that better than

02:53:52.000 pornography i don't know so so why are we listening to you then no because look if a woman wants

02:53:58.980 i don't here's the thing and here's the reason maybe why i'm able to say why i think it would be

02:54:05.000 good for a woman to become a doctor but maybe not to do only fans it's because i can i can

02:54:11.040 conceptualize of the good of me being a doctor i really can't conceptualize the good of me being

02:54:16.900 on only fans okay but so i don't know i i would i would have to talk with certain individuals like

02:54:23.080 certain individuals who were involved in this industry like i just i don't know i don't want to

02:54:27.160 make these blanket statements that we have to choose between i'm just being in the home or being sex

02:54:31.980 workers i think there i don't think it's a dichotomy i think there's so much great i'm not

02:54:35.480 presenting a dichotomy i'm doing a reductio no i'm saying no it's not a reductio if we accept

02:54:39.660 feminism we have to accept that every single woman it's actually not a reductio whenever they when you

02:54:44.100 know it doesn't actually it's not actually reduce you to absurdity though you're actually consistent

02:54:48.720 that you would say yeah uh teaching young girls that that's an option to get into pornography

02:54:54.660 would be empowering and in line with feminism i think you you could teach them that it is something

02:54:59.960 that people do but be honest about it and i'm not i'm not a fan of the porn industry i agree it's

02:55:06.120 incredibly exploitative and i agree that it has a lot of problems but so like i don't i think there

02:55:11.680 there's a reasons to be instrumentally against the porn industry and how it targets and exploits

02:55:17.120 young girls but i don't think that that that we should like pretend for like people that it doesn't

02:55:23.100 exist yeah but is don't you ever think about uh internally i know you're said you can't really put

02:55:28.940 pinpoint what it is about it but why is it that even you yourself who's advocating for just like

02:55:34.800 sort of like liberated woman um you still advocate for more wholesome uh useful because that's what i'm

02:55:45.020 familiar with dude i'm arguing only from my worldview and perspective and the reality is is there's a lot

02:55:51.260 of things that i see sorry yeah sorry there's a lot of things that i see and that i don't understand

02:55:55.660 that yeah i'm my first response is i don't get that that's weird and my initial response to it is

02:56:02.540 it's weird i don't understand it i don't like it therefore it shouldn't be something that we allow

02:56:07.340 and i think that's a bad basis for me basing a moral framework i think disgust is a very poor metric

02:56:15.420 of determining what is good and what is bad it might be uh not sufficient but i don't think it's entirely

02:56:21.000 invalid i don't think it's entirely invalid i agree with you but i don't know like one could uh like

02:56:27.040 for example i don't know like let's say some one person thinks seeing like people who are overweight

02:56:31.000 having sex is disgusting they'd never want to see that that there's i don't want that's not evidence

02:56:36.780 whatsoever at all that there's anything wrong with people who are overweight having sex like

02:56:40.940 whatsoever like it's not it's not like what like i don't know about that i i would i might argue

02:56:46.940 that um that being overweight or like super obese might be an ethical issue if you hold the view

02:56:55.160 that uh your own body is uh let's say like a like an icon of god or an expression people and people

02:57:01.940 should should take care of themselves would you agree that also there are certain at least conditions

02:57:05.480 and body types that it just some some people are just bigger you know what i mean yeah no matter how

02:57:09.980 no i agree no no no matter how much yeah i agree they just they shouldn't be allowed to have sex

02:57:14.680 are you are you i'm just kidding well i mean it's if you're gonna say that women shouldn't have the

02:57:19.820 right to vote and then you say like fat people shouldn't have sex it's not too far off from

02:57:23.200 what you no no no women voting is way more harmful to society what the things they vote for is

02:57:28.920 this is how i know this is how i know this is how i know that there's a specific difference is that

02:57:35.820 again you're going to be able to find exceptions okay you're gonna have to just use some charity

02:57:40.940 here what women vote for since like i don't know the 50s since onward right they vote according to

02:57:49.480 their sort of nurturing traits and what they do is they turn the this is the irony hold on this is

02:57:54.840 the irony of specific examples i will they they expand this is the irony you're arguing against this

02:58:01.200 authoritative power right the the man coming down right on freedom and liberty for women

02:58:05.460 women vote it with patterns that expand authoritarian government and uh basically examples

02:58:13.560 you're very big general gun gun gun laws they vote in protection they they vote for let's say

02:58:20.000 generally safety over liberty they they vote safety over liberty uh gun laws is a perfect example

02:58:26.720 okay um a lot of them vote uh pro-abortion okay right what is that well that's that's what do you

02:58:34.120 mean that's against them how is that against them they're they're annihilating their own kids what

02:58:39.080 you mean how is that on an act against you i don't think that people should be pregnant against their

02:58:42.460 will what do you mean they got sex what are you talking about i mean first off there's a big jump

02:58:47.160 to say that just because someone consented to sex they consented to pregnancy uh no it does follow

02:58:51.440 no how does it follow that follows the same way getting into a car you consented to possibly get

02:58:56.300 into an accident okay and if you possibly get into an accident does it therefore mean that you should

02:58:59.760 have to use your body to sustain the life of the person that you got into an accident with by law

02:59:04.040 what do you mean you're saying it's not a person i'm not no i'm not saying that actually no you

02:59:08.120 can't i'm saying no no you can you can make a bodily rights argument for abortion that doesn't

02:59:12.500 deny fetal personhood it's something that judith jarvis thompson no no she doesn't she can't

02:59:16.600 she can't tell me what a person no who cares about judith she doesn't even know what a person is

02:59:20.540 what do you how what do you mean by that how she she grants to you whatever your view of a person is

02:59:25.020 she says we don't even need to discuss that in the abortion debate we can have a conversation

02:59:28.420 directly surrounding bodily rights really so why does the doctor uh save the the non-person then

02:59:34.400 what do you mean the doctor saved the surgeon the woman gets in an accident right and a feminist says

02:59:39.860 well i'm not denying it's a person no but why is the doctor obligated to save the not the person well

02:59:45.780 what do you mean if it's not a person i'm not saying it's not a person you're ascribing to me this

02:59:50.900 view oh oh i see do you know you so see the person who's about to abort their baby doesn't see it as a

02:59:57.040 person but you do some people some people don't and some people they're they're very different

03:00:01.180 they're a lot of they get to decide on the spot there are a lot of aspects of the abortion debate

03:00:05.240 cool one of them so so so it's like this dude there's there's two women who are pregnant right

03:00:09.800 same same level of pregnancy they both get into an accident and the doctor determine it doesn't

03:00:15.140 determine it's not dependent it's not dependent on what they think it's not dependent on what they

03:00:18.600 think it's not it's not dependent on what they think personhood is not a

03:00:21.820 the surgeon saves both of them right i mean ideally sure they should yeah right what if

03:00:27.580 they decide not to what do you mean what if they determine that like that's not a baby so this is

03:00:32.020 basically the argument of why is uh abortion a double homicide if it's not a person type thing or

03:00:36.080 wife i mean that could be used so think about it this way if we're talking about this idea of like

03:00:39.640 rendering life-saving care if for example you agree to allow someone the use of your kidneys for a

03:00:44.540 period of time and you're willing to save their life let's say you're generously you're like oh you

03:00:48.720 know what this is either a family member or something like that i'm going to generously allow

03:00:51.420 this person to do that and a gunman comes in and kills both of you they've still done something

03:00:56.020 wrong but if you were to say i don't consent to my body being used in this way it's very painful i

03:01:00.840 don't want to do that anymore and you quote unquote unplug from them or something or no longer you cease

03:01:05.300 the consent you haven't you haven't murdered them yeah but you're you're including there's another body

03:01:11.760 sure but just i'm not denying that there's not so it's a contradiction i'm not denying that there's

03:01:16.060 another body i'm denying that other bodies have a right to use your body without your consent

03:01:20.880 that's what i'm saying the look if abortion is getting rid of the other body and your argument

03:01:27.780 is you can't violate this woman using her body right like the way she wants to use her body sure

03:01:34.300 you can't use the body autonomy and leave out the other body wait you aren't you're agreeing that

03:01:40.020 there's two bodies it's the same reason you can't be forced to donate your kidney against your will

03:01:43.980 even if you get into an accident that requires someone the use of your kidney you're not denying that

03:01:49.420 two bodies exist you're saying that one body doesn't have a right to the other body there's

03:01:55.780 no rights okay i don't know i don't know why you keep appealing to these things i'm appealing to

03:02:00.980 societal intuitions that we largely hold if you want to reject everything that we basis like society on

03:02:06.420 and go off on your own tangent then i don't know how to engage in this conversation well i'm saying

03:02:09.780 like you're assuming there's these that you're because you're using metaphysical terms societal norms

03:02:14.440 yeah yeah but do you agree generally those if those change under your parenting do you agree

03:02:18.840 that generally people should not be forced against their will to donate an organ it depends on the

03:02:25.640 situation oh my god fine well you were talking about generalities right you're talking constantly

03:02:29.300 about generalities yeah generally speaking should it be wrong for someone to have an organ taken from

03:02:34.580 them or used without their consent yes or no generally yeah okay cool so that's a principle under which

03:02:40.400 i'm operating on so once we get that principle out of the way and we can say but a baby's not an organ

03:02:45.380 dude i'm the baby's not the organ in question the uterus is the organ in question and the baby

03:02:49.960 they're not getting rid of the uterus no they're using the uterus they're renting you're evicting them

03:02:56.180 i mean so you invited so you invited a person into your home and then you're like i just i want to

03:03:02.360 i just want to eat the person well not exactly i'm just going to kill the person who i invited into

03:03:07.100 my home by opening my legs no first off it's not actually i think there are and this might get

03:03:11.520 they're really interesting literature on this specifically i think an analogous scenario to

03:03:15.960 pregnancy and of course you're probably going to reject this is imagine that you are having lunch

03:03:20.820 with someone um and you're eating and they start choking and you give them the heimlich maneuver and

03:03:25.160 save their life and in the process you rupture you know their kidney you puncture their lungs something

03:03:30.460 like that and then they require your body to continue living in that scenario do you think that

03:03:36.140 you have some sort of like you should be legally required to use your body in that scenario

03:03:40.260 i wouldn't be opposed to it really okay i mean i just i i would not share that

03:03:47.500 thing whatsoever because you generously tried to save their life well the thing is

03:03:51.540 it would be to me it would be awesome to live in a society where someone would be so willing to do that

03:03:57.620 they i mean one could argue it would be super erogatory but that's for but that's for saving a life

03:04:03.700 that's what's so so different about this view is that we're talking about saving lives and what you

03:04:08.860 would do or what's required which is a totally different um system of thinking than whether or

03:04:14.400 not women like for instance let's just let's forget it let's shift to just this this question because

03:04:19.980 to bring it back to feminism how is women being able to destroy the baby that's growing inside of

03:04:27.980 them how is that how is that good oh there's water down here sorry about that all good sorry would

03:04:37.740 you mind how is it good for women to yeet their offspring because i think women should have a

03:04:44.420 choice when and where they in situations they get pregnant i don't think people should be pregnant

03:04:49.080 i don't think people should be pregnant against their will it's fine taking a brief uh pause here

03:04:53.080 yeah that's fine i want to do uh we can come right back to it though if you want to just uh

03:04:57.760 make a note on that i want to read a couple chats here uh we have just by the way tts has been lowered

03:05:03.820 uh to 69 dollar tts if you guys want to get it in we're going to read a couple chats here so we have

03:05:10.660 just gerald

03:05:12.460 just gerald donated 100 brian got that deep sultry voice tonight w jim bob because jim bob

03:05:23.480 but shout out to oliver for having the stones to fight tonight and remain in good faith

03:05:28.700 brian you're the man gerald thank you so much for the uh tts i really appreciate it

03:05:34.440 and uh it's been a good conversation so thank you man uh kai baka thank you it won't let me pull it up

03:05:40.240 but thank you for the gifted 20 subs on twitch then we have dax here

03:05:44.300 dax donated 69 dollars bro we're arguing about what is a woman while china is building 100s of

03:05:53.160 nuclear plants and out competing us in every metric this is so dumb yo dax thank you for the uh

03:06:00.240 69 dollar tts really appreciate it we have emotional damage coming here he says on a scale of one to ten

03:06:08.080 ten being of the manliest man how would you rate yourself as a man okay also rate your dad who

03:06:13.620 what the fuck who produced such a weak offspring on that scale also can you explain why a woman would

03:06:18.920 choose to get impregnated by him to produce useless garbage inside wow okay do you want to brutal

03:06:24.540 i mean i mean i think it's kind of pathetic he wasted a hundred dollars to to kind of send that in

03:06:30.300 so i mean good for you emotional damage he's calling you out he said you wasted it i don't know if

03:06:36.000 this is gonna spur him on more but i mean if it gets you to spend more money then all right

03:06:41.180 um oh oliver are you if we hit we have a super chat goal yeah if we hit 50 super chats right now

03:06:52.120 we're at nine of 50 yeah will you put on a maga hat no no okay i should probably remove that

03:07:00.740 sorry i thought he was gonna do it no is there a would you there's there's not a number is there

03:07:05.320 any circumstance in which you would uh if someone was going to die if i didn't wear a maga hat sure

03:07:11.140 i'm into the sorry if someone were to die if i wouldn't wear a mag i don't know i'm not gonna

03:07:14.560 wear a mag hat it doesn't is antithetical to almost everything that i stand for like i'm not

03:07:18.220 no i don't know what about for a million dollars i don't i mean sure we can make these like

03:07:22.980 comparative claims that like like what would the good of me getting a million dollars and then

03:07:26.800 donating that money to a cause that i'm in favor of offset the harm of wearing a maga hat maybe but

03:07:31.680 like i'm not gonna wear a maga hat because you get money donated to your show like i'm sorry that's

03:07:36.180 not that's not how that's gonna work i gotta remove the goal he i thought he would go for it

03:07:40.380 nope i thought he would be a sport but um okay we also have let's see here we have mike davis

03:07:47.020 thank you for the super chat mike davis he's an og so i'll give him a read my next business venture

03:07:53.780 will be an airline passport bros air direct flights to countries with traditional women

03:07:57.840 pretty and feminine flight attendants okay male pilots only w passport bros okay that's from

03:08:03.500 the og mike davis thank you for that uh guys if you're enjoying the stream jim bob's gonna join

03:08:08.660 us here in just a sec you just got up to um get a beer is it no you got a beer do you want you want

03:08:16.100 a beer i'm chill i'm good no uh guys if you're enjoying the stream like the video you can also

03:08:21.020 support via venmo and cash app that's whatever pod on those also if you're watching on twitch drop a

03:08:26.720 safe follow in the prime sub over there on twitch join our discord discord.gg slash whatever we got

03:08:34.040 merch shop.whatever.com tts has been lowered 69 tts um do you guys want to switch the prompt or

03:08:41.440 um i mean i don't really know what there really would be to

03:08:45.260 um well one of the ones i had proposed was uh and i sort of switched it a little bit

03:08:49.920 uh are what was it are men more privileged i don't i don't really think that like

03:08:55.860 or are women i feel like jim bob would just like agree that they are and they should be right so

03:08:59.660 there really wouldn't be much okay well i mean wouldn't that be jim bob would say it was good i

03:09:04.680 imagine and you would say it was bad but that just goes back to the whole conversation we were

03:09:07.920 literally having sorry yeah and that would just go back to the whole conversation we were already

03:09:11.560 having so i don't think this is a separate question yeah it would probably come back i mean

03:09:15.620 i would say men are privileged for good reason um because force is privilege and then um if you said

03:09:21.900 women are not privileged it'd probably be because descriptively men are privileged and to correct it

03:09:28.560 what do you do how do you correct the privilege problem how do you correct the privilege problem

03:09:34.340 it largely would end up you're not denying that certain people are stronger than others

03:09:39.460 i just think that if you are stronger if you have certain privileges if you are endowed with

03:09:45.120 certain traits that are of no fault to your own i think you do bear some sort of responsibility

03:09:49.260 to help others out and not use that power i agree to hurt others and use that power to advance

03:09:57.360 their interests and not well well well hold on i was up i was with you to a point yeah the interest

03:10:03.960 but then you're like well not really like like if it's an interest to for women to to yeet their

03:10:10.020 potential children i don't think they've earned the right of men collectively to protect their rights

03:10:15.440 at all i think we should i think i think we should come down harder on women for yeeting their children

03:10:20.800 because they're in a state of luxury like they're in a state of absolute decadence right now what do

03:10:27.480 you mean i mean that the privileges they're provided wholly dependent on men allowing them to be like

03:10:33.680 this you're you're arguing well men being that you have force you should really be nicer to these

03:10:38.760 women who are horrific well hold on i mean if you want to go back to the abortion discussion you are

03:10:44.180 begging the question which is you are assuming the thing you are trying to prove which is that women

03:10:48.820 getting abortions is is is is a bad thing that's something that we should legally prevent

03:10:53.900 i think if if it's the case continue that conversation well if it's the case that we need

03:10:58.660 human beings it's and we both agree it's a good thing to fix the problem of having human beings in

03:11:05.720 society that doesn't mean anything that means it doesn't mean yeah but fix that problem how does it

03:11:09.580 how does it follow that eating one million kids per year is a good thing um i think it i will go back

03:11:15.900 to this argument i don't think that anyone should be obligated by law to use their body to sustain

03:11:21.920 another oliver person or what did i ask you i don't know ask me again you asked me many things i don't

03:11:28.580 you've got a ridiculous question i didn't ask what you think it justifies that they eat their

03:11:32.980 kids i asked you what is good about it what is good about it it's good that people are not pregnant

03:11:40.480 against their will that's what's good about it people should not be forced to gestate a fetus

03:11:46.300 why should they be a force to to uh breastfeed their child at one week they shouldn't be forced

03:11:52.240 to breastfeed if they don't want to take care if they don't want to take care if they don't want to

03:11:54.960 take care of their kid then they can give that child up for no no no no no hold on a second

03:11:58.880 hold on a second if someone is not obligated to do anything and that's not so hold on well

03:12:05.920 ultimately care of a child yeah hold on a second they had a child it's the first week it's a cabin

03:12:10.880 in the woods like the mother the child can survive well no the mother has no obligation you heard here

03:12:15.800 the mother has no obligation to breastfeed her child that she brought into the world according to

03:12:21.960 oliver but he skipped to an alternative that he likes which is to give it up to for adoption she

03:12:27.840 has no obligation to do that either that takes more resources for her as well you mean i'm not saying

03:12:31.820 that you don't have an obligation to ensure that a child in your care does not die it does not mean

03:12:37.340 that you yeah but why is why why is that an obligation if your whole entire ethical view is

03:12:42.340 no one is owed your labor no no that's not what i said no one is owed your body no no those are two

03:12:47.960 different things right would you say that there's a difference between people paying taxes and being

03:12:53.400 required to pay taxes and being required to donate their bodily tissue to the government would you say

03:12:58.320 there's a meaningful distinction there that at least most people would you know it's at least

03:13:02.520 defensible it makes sense you can tax your money but you can't really request that i donate a pint of

03:13:07.160 blood that's kind of a little bit too far um i mean i could grant that they're different scales but

03:13:12.900 they could they could be closer together than you'd think i i and and yeah and one could and

03:13:17.080 one could make the argument that you know your money your your money is an extension of your labor

03:13:20.920 but but but i want to point out something before you move on with this hypothetical is that

03:13:25.200 from my view taxation as it originally existed was an obligation and a duty it wasn't based on some

03:13:32.400 sort of rights or or anything like this it was as there was a social social contract there was a

03:13:36.680 social component that rich people they actually wanted it was it was like a an elite status to be

03:13:42.800 able to help others what happened to that well what happened uh people started entering the

03:13:48.080 workforce and and people made more money and then it got people weak in the middle class people got

03:13:54.640 rich and then decided they actually didn't want to keep being altruistic well no no it wasn't just

03:13:58.360 that is that as people more people got rich because there were less rich people right there's there's

03:14:02.980 more rich rich people now than there was before it was that rich people were were less um available and

03:14:10.820 so there was like this essence of like well we're rich this is what we do we take care of the

03:14:15.200 little people right this is great i'm sorry i was not paying attention i'm just saying this is great

03:14:18.760 i just think it's really funny that he's spending a hundred dollars to insult i'm i'm i'm impressed

03:14:24.060 that he thinks that i'm worth a hundred dollars to tell me that like i mean he thinks apparently

03:14:30.280 it's his his opinion is so valuable that he wants to spend a hundred dollars to do that okay hey you

03:14:35.760 know yeah keep keep keep keep you know what here's what we're gonna do we're gonna actually lower

03:14:38.940 the tts we're gonna do a 30 we're gonna just do a roast session to wrap up the show uh i'll let i

03:14:45.360 wanted to maybe do a little rapid fire segment here at the end just some of your like prompts on

03:14:50.460 tiktok if you're fine with that we won't like linger for too long but no go you guys see this

03:14:55.240 vibration that's crazy okay uh we do have emotional damage i'll pull it up does this guy realize that

03:15:00.800 he's going to be the kind of man who gets affected the most by what he's advocating for he will

03:15:07.380 realize it when his blue-haired husband makes him a stay-at-home mom breastfeeding his kid

03:15:12.520 who questions i do think men can i think men can breastfeed because they have nipples right

03:15:21.580 so if you have nipples you produce milk right that's how it goes now yeah you just know like i think

03:15:27.800 i don't know like i don't know enough about the like the science of it but i at least to my

03:15:32.480 understanding like if you would do certain types of hormones or if you give men certain hormones

03:15:35.960 they will they will lactate it's probably not a no great natural like no i don't i don't think so

03:15:42.260 because i mean the reason that women lactate when they give birth is that there is a certain hormone

03:15:45.680 that's released that you know indicates that i'm forgetting exactly what it's called i think

03:15:50.340 i don't know something is it prolactin yeah i think those men who try to force breastfeed their

03:15:55.940 child pretending they're women are just giving their child some sort of pus isn't it i mean i think

03:16:00.680 that's kind of weird i don't i don't i don't know i don't what i don't like to do in that

03:16:04.220 situation is kind of like paint a whole demographic or group based on the actions of some select few

03:16:09.580 so i don't i don't know i think there are i think there are perfectly fine individuals who don't

03:16:15.080 identify within the gender binary i'm not going to claim to have some ultimate epistemic knowledge on

03:16:19.600 what it is to be either of those things but i don't want to demonize those groups of people just

03:16:25.300 because some people are doing something yeah i don't think that men should be putting their nipples

03:16:29.660 in their kids mouths that's weird don't do that yeah but i don't think it follows from that that

03:16:33.500 all automatically men who are uh you know choosing to express their gender differently or is deciding

03:16:39.380 to not identify as men or somehow like equivalent in that group i don't want to i don't want to you

03:16:44.440 know i don't i don't think it's fair to paint people like that we should not judge the individuals

03:16:49.520 like a monolith so well i mean go ahead brian oh okay yeah yeah uh excuse me guys i'm a bit sick so

03:16:57.900 okay uh oh okay you're you're there was maybe like three or four that i thought were interesting that

03:17:03.780 could perhaps prompt some conversation why women choose the bear so this isn't the man versus bear

03:17:09.920 thing yeah do you guys want to have a quick little five ten minutes actually i switched my position on

03:17:15.120 this the impulse from the pro male side is to say you're crazy men can protect you and bears are

03:17:21.920 ferocious and they'll kill you i kind of thought about swapping and just being like yeah men are

03:17:26.460 dangerous that's my point i mean i'm horrified by your conclusion but i guess i admire your consistency

03:17:33.000 but it's true like like maybe it's the right thing to say yeah women you should be afraid of men

03:17:38.780 because you don't know what they're going to do that's why you should rely on and hope to rely on good

03:17:43.300 men who can actually defend you from the bad men because you know you can't from the man or the

03:17:47.000 bear sure and i guess my whole thing with that is i still do not see how any of that is contrary to a

03:17:54.360 feminist worldview well a feminist worldview is simply this right you have you want to get rid of

03:17:59.300 the power of men feminism is a movement away from men in power i think it's a way of movement away from

03:18:04.980 men in power somewhat at the expense of women and their autonomy i think there has to be some element

03:18:10.700 if men are in power and only doing like and are being egalitarian in the way that they govern

03:18:16.500 alongside women that's not like i don't think and it's something that feminists would be against

03:18:22.140 it's not that men have power it's the way that they wield that power that is the problem men can't

03:18:28.080 look it's a performative contradiction for men to be solely in power and wield their power to produce

03:18:35.280 some sort of sims simulation of egalitarianism what are you what are you talking it's literally

03:18:40.460 not egalitarianism what do you there can be i don't know what you're talking about there can be

03:18:45.180 egalitarian outcomes that still give people as much autonomy and ability as possible like i don't you

03:18:51.280 think because men hold this power that therefore they will always inherently like i don't know no it's

03:18:57.340 not what they will do it's the fact that the necessary component to your egalitarian vision

03:19:03.080 is something that's not egalitarian it's a literally a necessary component of it it's like

03:19:08.600 it's like the thing you that you are arguing against is literally you utilized to produce a fiction of

03:19:16.080 the thing you think you have against men holding power so then it's not egalitarianism if egalitarianism

03:19:21.580 or feminism requires an arm that's uh that is the manifestation of the disparity between men and

03:19:27.840 women then it's not egalitarian it's not arguing that we should have an egalitarian

03:19:31.700 structure of society where men and women are represented equally in every field participate

03:19:38.060 equally in every single realm it's that especially in the fields where there really aren't relevant

03:19:44.320 differences i will 100 concede that women can't probably and probably most men actually can't meet

03:19:50.400 the standards that it takes to be a navy seal so it makes sense that navy seals should be men

03:19:54.520 that doesn't apply to being a scientist that doesn't apply so because of that we should not

03:20:00.820 exclude women from stem we don't you because you but you would rather have a woman you would tell a

03:20:06.960 woman that her she she you would be more happy being in a home yeah we tell her children yeah i tell

03:20:11.400 her being a sign that's not excluding her problem no that's not excluding her that's just telling her and

03:20:15.060 guiding her what's what she should do even and we already agreed that even the smartest who end up in

03:20:20.660 the stem we would want them multiplied because they're smart we want smart women and i don't

03:20:25.320 think that those two things are mutually well you have to choose at some point having a career

03:20:28.980 no and having children no of course i don't think no i i don't i i really that's the case no really so

03:20:34.740 you think it's better for children to be raised by strangers in the public school system that's um i

03:20:39.220 think that actually in a certain sense i do think public education is a good is a good thing i think oh my

03:20:44.120 gosh are you kidding me i i think it's not wait wait a second what no no i don't did you just say

03:20:51.460 the public education system is a good poll oh my god i agree that there are problems with it and i

03:20:56.880 agree that there are many issues with it however the alternative which is parents educating their

03:21:02.400 children in their own worldview necessarily with there being no counterbalance to it will lead to

03:21:08.180 people with entirely differing ideologies that never converge i think people should encounter ideas

03:21:14.600 that differ from what they've been thought wait a second people should i think school should provide

03:21:19.840 a difference do you think pluralism is better than like homogeny and and and like cohesive in group

03:21:26.680 thinking yes but i don't i don't think that they're mutually exclusive you know i mean i don't think

03:21:31.700 that like i think you could have a i think it requires some of both you can't have where the whole idea

03:21:35.680 if you can't be so open-minded your mind falls out but i do think that you should be open-minded

03:21:39.960 enough that you're not dogmatic in your conclusions that's very dogmatic okay fine right if you're going

03:21:47.320 to argue that yeah then like if i claim that and it's like an anti-dogmatic dogma i'm i'm arguing

03:21:54.660 oliver sure that dogma's not always bad like what if there's good dogma so well i think there's a

03:22:00.680 really interesting argument that john stewart mill makes in his thing called on liberty and the reason

03:22:05.320 that truth ought to be challenged even if we know it's true is because it risks becoming dead

03:22:11.040 dogma that we don't know why it's true things that are true you know retain their value by

03:22:16.220 remaining true in the face of objections because they're challenged and they remain true and they

03:22:20.540 test they mean like traditional families are good for society and women going into porn instead of

03:22:25.780 having children is just not good i don't think that i think that's going to be oliver i think you're

03:22:32.420 going to come back in due time and you're going to go you know that that jim that wacky jim bob guy

03:22:37.480 with the gay shirt no he was right and he he actually uh his statements align with john stewart

03:22:45.400 mill's view that the truth actually prevails but that's not i'm not saying but you you were saying

03:22:50.740 dogma's good dogma i said dogma could be good dogma could be good i don't think so because i don't

03:22:55.860 think that uncritically accepting things is is really so so critic not critically accepting

03:23:02.040 women's rights sure okay i'm not saying i don't think you should be yeah i don't think you should

03:23:07.600 be dogmatic about anything if someone says you know i yeah like i don't i don't i'm not telling

03:23:11.740 people that like if a woman says like i have a right to an abortion you should just like if you

03:23:15.420 don't know what it is then yeah research it what about what about are you dogmatic do you think it's

03:23:20.240 a good thing to be dogmatic that rights exist just generally i don't think you can because i agree

03:23:24.740 with you that rights fundamentally don't exist don't exist what exists if that what is what is

03:23:31.200 it we're calling a right that actually does exist that's not a right like like when we say you and i

03:23:37.060 agree rights don't actually exist there's some sort of construct what's the only thing we're really

03:23:41.680 pointing to that does exist i don't know i think i mean sorry i think like i think pain and pleasure

03:23:48.360 suffering humans have the capacity to suffer that is something entities have the capacity to suffer

03:23:53.780 it is bad when an entity you know i'm gonna just suffer well it's it's linked to that i'm gonna say

03:23:59.500 force okay why why why do people i mean i think we can bottom out why do people exercise force

03:24:05.580 um well uh they have a worldview that informs whether they should exercise force or not

03:24:13.180 they have a sense that it was justified it's a type of justified true belief in a lot of senses

03:24:18.380 um but um ultimately on the wide on the grand scale of things when we're talking about a society

03:24:24.540 people execute force because it's either counter to force or it's the maintaining of an order which

03:24:30.940 with the threat of force and i consider those things uh separate two two sides of the same hand

03:24:35.320 the threat of force is the use of force why do we care about order well if you want a feminist

03:24:41.020 society i'm just asking you i'm trying to why do i want order what i'm basically trying to build it

03:24:45.840 down to is like it kind of just comes down to a combination of like pain like just suffering like

03:24:49.940 if a society is not ordered you know people would be suffering people would die things would not be

03:24:55.000 optimal it would be suboptimal because of you know there would be a lot of suffering if there's

03:25:00.520 disorder no i mean that's not that might be true in some sense but you can have a fair amount of

03:25:05.780 order and they're still suffering you can have ordered suffering true and i think there's ordered

03:25:09.500 suffering the the fact whether it's ordered or disordered doesn't make it good or bad it's whether

03:25:13.940 there's suffering that makes it good or bad go ahead i do have to move it on uh did you want to

03:25:18.360 give your position though on the what's your position on the man versus bear i mean i i think

03:25:23.700 my position and i've stated this a bit in the jubilee video that i was in and i think it is the case is

03:25:27.840 um i think that the point of the comparison that was made and my understanding of it was it was

03:25:34.180 originally a man who actually like brought it up as an example um and it and it seems to be pretty

03:25:40.000 ubiquitous that men and women alike especially with men if you frame it like with their daughters

03:25:44.160 you know would you rather have your daughter encounter a random man or a random bear in the

03:25:48.760 woods men almost universally choose choose bear so i think that men who kind of get offended by it

03:25:54.420 it's like i mean if you're not part of the problem then why are you why are you offended you know you

03:25:58.240 shouldn't be offended that women don't want like bad men so i i don't know i i think we should defer

03:26:03.840 to women i also think it's true and this is something that i really hadn't considered that for i mean

03:26:07.700 certain women they would consider things to be there are things that are worse than death you

03:26:10.860 know like being like you know assaulted and and tortured and you know whatever you know a man

03:26:17.040 could do is just worse than being mulled by a bear and dying so i think in that sense it it could be

03:26:22.240 just i just want to be killed painless oliver this is what i ask instead of that i i just move it

03:26:27.120 forward i say you encounter a man in the woods and uh you have a sense that they're that they're

03:26:34.460 um not they don't have good intentions right yeah do you ask for another man and risk that it might

03:26:42.440 be another bad man or a good man right or a bear what do you mean so like like it's man and bear

03:26:48.740 except you're already in the instance of a of a man so you i don't know i mean i think women would

03:26:53.500 probably just do their very best to get out of that situation i also reduced it to a uh an elevator

03:26:59.600 and how that changes things a little bit because in an elevator because there's a ton i'm staying

03:27:04.400 at a hotel and uh twice now i was in the elevator with a woman yeah like alone and so um this i

03:27:11.720 think it's a little different though because well but that's what that's what i'm pointing to is like

03:27:14.660 what makes the yeah but what makes it different all swing away it's different and it might not be

03:27:18.480 different let's assume that it's an elevator that you can't get out of i think it's very different

03:27:22.460 than like most elevators you know you get in the elevator you click a floor and the door's gonna open

03:27:27.640 like you know what i mean like a woods is like an isolated place you know anything can happen

03:27:31.920 there's no supervisors or people around and an elevator is worse to be isolated with a man than

03:27:37.840 a woods no because i'm saying fine if we if we stipulate that maybe it's a broken elevator or

03:27:43.200 it's an elevator that can like be prevented from being opened i still think the man it's like you'd be

03:27:49.720 able you might be able to get a couple shots in with a man in an elevator and if you're in the room

03:27:54.260 with a bear it's pretty much over i'm not so i look and i i think i i think getting into these a

03:28:00.040 lot of these specifics kind of like misses the whole point of it but i do think that it is also

03:28:04.260 important to note that like a lot of wildlife too it's like usually if you leave it alone it's

03:28:09.300 going to leave you alone depending on the bear you know there's like grizzly bears or something

03:28:12.040 like that that are more provocative bears of color uh commit more attacks okay it's just true

03:28:17.080 yeah good job no it's literally true yeah yeah but you're making a thinly veiled rhetorical

03:28:21.420 point what are you talking about no yeah okay you're really smart yep there you go

03:28:25.720 okay all right we have a super chat here from emotional damage he says brian can you give him

03:28:33.600 this hundred dollar hundred dollars to this guy to get a shot of testosterone yeah you can i bet his

03:28:38.800 views will change if we balance the estrogen content produced by his ovaries on second thought

03:28:44.740 don't give it to him screw this kind of kind of indecisive i mean not being decisive i don't don't

03:28:49.480 you think decisiveness is something that kind of is like important to manliness it's gonna be

03:28:53.020 kind of indecisive so i don't know how masculine you really are oh okay emotional damage are you

03:28:57.480 gonna let him are you gonna let oliver talk to you like that emotional damage uh thank you for

03:29:03.380 that emotional damage appreciate your super chat guys we're doing a roast session can i comment on

03:29:07.680 one of these yeah sure because i think like the 499 was really interesting it's like i'm wondering

03:29:11.780 like when people like kind of call like men who they like view who disagree with them as like

03:29:16.240 not real men i think it kind of enforces this idea that like there is a very gendered aspect to

03:29:21.120 manhood you know what i mean man isn't only used in the biological sense like it very often is used

03:29:25.760 to you know substitute the stereotypes that people often associate with male and female stereotypes are

03:29:31.580 very useful though okay yeah that's true but they there is there there definitely is such a thing as

03:29:37.780 gender and it exists socially and like you know what i mean like you can't like if that wasn't the

03:29:43.220 case then no one would use man or woman as an insult because it wouldn't have any social connotation

03:29:47.920 if which it does so thank you for acknowledging that there is a social component of gender that

03:29:52.240 isn't just purely biological i'm gonna let uh we got some roasts coming in here we go

03:29:56.780 thank you sons of liberty donated 29 and 99 cents will there ever be a time when we realize what

03:30:05.320 these leftists advocate for is evil like evil this isn't to debate and agree to disagree and live

03:30:11.760 happily ever after with them they are evil jim bob uh yeah well evil i don't call people aren't evil

03:30:20.620 people can be wicked if they know what evil is and they continue but i don't think oliver here

03:30:25.460 um holds a theological view or a christian view so he's operating from what he's got but um yes i

03:30:33.860 believe feminism ultimately comes from a denial of truth and i believe that a denial of truth

03:30:39.780 ultimately is evil yeah and i think the denial of feminism comes down to the denial of the

03:30:45.080 humanity of women i'll have you did you get new mics sounds different also does this guy not

03:30:52.740 realize that mainstream equality has literally morphed into equity even his definition of feminism

03:30:58.600 is wrong from the majority opinion i mean that that actually is an interesting point that i do want

03:31:03.020 to get into i'm not really defending the like prevailing view of like i don't know there's

03:31:07.840 there's there's this idea that like all outcomes have to be equal there's this kind of idea within

03:31:13.420 critical thought that like all disparities are a result of some underlying like systemic issue

03:31:18.680 and i actually don't subscribe to that i think there can be benign disparities i think differences

03:31:22.680 between groups don't always call out for the evil of the system um there can't just be differences um

03:31:27.980 and so i would i don't always agree that like equity and as it's like advocated for is the best

03:31:35.280 thing we shouldn't always strive for equal outcomes we should subscribe for people to have access to

03:31:39.740 opportunities and not be you know denied things arbitrarily how is it access to opportunity not an

03:31:46.200 outcome because you might not necessarily do the same thing with that opportunity i agree they're very

03:31:52.680 much linked because the opportunities that you have depends on the like outcome of your family or

03:31:57.500 something like that yeah like if you look at a scenario and you summarize it and you say look

03:32:02.020 there's equal opportunity if you wanted to produce equal opportunity the equal opportunity on the table

03:32:07.920 is now the new outcome you produced so i feel like that you know a lot of that came from like i don't

03:32:13.800 even know 10 years years ago rhetoric from the right you'd get ben shapiro like i'm not for equal

03:32:18.680 outcome and me for opportunity you'd be ranting that around but i realized that in a different debate

03:32:24.440 that you actually can't separate those two you're always arguing for some type of outcome equalizer

03:32:31.000 basically some type of artificial i mean and i don't necessarily think that i would entirely disagree

03:32:35.600 with that like for example i don't think that poverty should be a reason why someone should be and are two

03:32:41.140 different things but i don't think it should be a reason why someone receives either a worse education

03:32:44.680 or less opportunities we should do what we're against reparations against reparations like like

03:32:49.760 specifically like regarding slavery and things like that i haven't given a ton of thought to the

03:32:54.640 issue um you're a lawyer right you're gonna be a lawyer i mean i i've thought about it um and i think

03:33:01.820 what we should do regarding that is try to alleviate the injustice that's been done in terms of like i

03:33:08.000 don't think we should give like cash payments or something like that like i just don't especially

03:33:10.920 because of the way the system is set up and how fast a dollar circulates throughout like low-income

03:33:15.600 communities if you just give them an influx of cash it'll just immediately go to the top so it's not

03:33:19.080 actually going to solve the systemic issues right to amazon yeah so i think instead we should do

03:33:23.420 invest that money more effectively to solve a lot of those further systemic issues than just

03:33:28.760 give people a bunch of money i don't think that's really going to do much good so

03:33:31.560 uh some people in the chat saying the audio has been low chat is the audio okay or am i also just not

03:33:39.400 like sometimes close enough so low for me too or might be that i'm not sure yeah sorry if i'm too far

03:33:43.440 away from the mic we have lulu here with a message thank you lulu lulu donated 29 and 99 cents

03:33:51.280 killed i teach bob this was easy for you women hate you oliver you want women to go fight wars

03:33:58.020 while you hide in the closet getting fisted brian would you pay for oliver on the first date

03:34:03.520 uh what here i gotta play watch what all right lulu thank you for that um when i pay for oliver on the

03:34:14.740 first date he's not my type no offense wow no offense well brian it's okay you weren't either

03:34:20.740 damn but i just don't like podcast hosts so dagger to the heart um okay so if you guys want 30 roast

03:34:27.880 uh moving on to the next thing uh oliver use in one of your tiktoks why men should not be the

03:34:35.800 leaders in relationships i don't know if that's like your position or inherently like i don't think

03:34:40.600 like i mean one of the prompts in the jubilee video was like men should be the leader in like

03:34:44.600 romantic relationships and i think that relationships are fundamentally a partnership

03:34:47.880 between two people some people have strengths some people have weaknesses i think to say that like

03:34:52.200 there ought to be a one-size-fits-all when people are so different um i think just i mean there's

03:34:57.400 going to be some relationships where the man is more dominant and the woman is more submissive

03:35:00.880 there's going to be some relationships where the woman takes a more dominant role and the man is

03:35:03.980 submissive um and people will you know adhere to those preferences as they like but i don't know i

03:35:09.460 think i think it reduces the complexity of people so much by saying that like men should be this and

03:35:14.740 this relationship how do you determine who's a leader because you're getting you're getting into law

03:35:18.820 right so isn't it the case that um when you like have a partnership in like a like a firm or a company

03:35:25.980 someone has to take 51 and someone takes 49 i'm not i don't know i'm pretty sure that's the case and

03:35:30.780 there's a pragmatic reason for obviously legality is that there has to be a guarantor and someone who

03:35:35.640 actually has to say this way even if they're wrong you have to have someone pushing the button in the

03:35:40.800 end and i feel like from a secular view which i assume you're secular yeah um a relationship let's

03:35:46.820 call it a marriage even a legal legal marriage it seems that you would probably um um determine one of

03:35:55.600 them was the 51 percent leader why would we have that well because it's a legal it's a legal um

03:36:01.260 contract so the marriage is the company in a sense but marriages aren't companies because they're not

03:36:07.140 trying to turn a profit or make a no well they kind of are trying to survive they're trying to they

03:36:12.200 can be red they can be red line and black line so like they sure i don't know i i don't think there

03:36:17.220 should be a 51 and 49 if that's the case if you want it to be that way then sure when people get

03:36:22.200 married they should designate one of those people as it i don't think you know of course now you're

03:36:26.080 going to make the argument oh it should be the man i don't i don't think there's necessarily a

03:36:29.420 reason for why that should be the case that should be up to the individual in question who are

03:36:33.000 individuals in question who are getting married if for some reason we decide that that should be the

03:36:36.660 way that marriage are you going to be the leader in your relationship no i'm not going to be the

03:36:40.220 leader i don't think there should be a leader i i i will lead sometimes i will i i assume that my

03:36:45.300 partner will lead sometimes what if she says i want you to lead yeah then i will it depends what you

03:36:50.860 mean by like lead i i don't i would never want my girl girlfriend to like take the back seat on

03:36:56.180 what if she wanted to then i wouldn't date that person because i want someone who's also assertive

03:37:00.600 who matches my intellect who i feel is a kind of my intellectual equal whoa whoa whoa you're this

03:37:08.780 close to being gay no i don't yeah no dude i'm not everyone listen in the audience look look look look

03:37:14.660 i don't want to date a man look i'm i'm 44 okay okay okay i'm assuming authority by age okay well

03:37:23.760 so bernie sanders has authority over you then he's very old yeah he's he loves

03:37:29.240 choice yeah

03:37:32.660 i think that everyone should have an abortion that that's your guy you you vote for him

03:37:40.720 i can't vote for bernie sanders i'm not a i'm not in vermont oh what um what was i asking you

03:37:48.160 oh oh you said that you want an equal intellectual right what i'm telling you men collectively generally

03:37:58.020 are not they're they're more philosophical they're more they can do this no yes no not inherently no i'm

03:38:05.820 telling you inherently no you're gonna you're basically looking for a dude i'm not looking for a dude

03:38:10.380 you are no you are reducing you're gonna find a woman who can do everything that that that that

03:38:16.040 provides you let's say being a wife being a mother of your children and because she's not going to get

03:38:20.620 some stupid ass obscure philosophical fucking school of thought you're gonna like no she's not

03:38:25.860 really philosophically no no you are you are reducing my just find the little sally you are

03:38:30.560 you are you are my you are reducing my preferences in a partner to a checklist like oh it has to be this

03:38:36.400 it has to be this it has to be this it's not that way and that's not how that's so she doesn't get

03:38:40.160 your uh john stewart mill references is that a check is that a is that a actually a little bit i mean i

03:38:45.600 it's um i i do think it's the case so here's an example of it and i think that i don't know this

03:38:50.660 is what's wrong with men today no it's not they're looking for women to be men no they aren't because

03:38:55.520 you're assuming that being smart and being intellectual are manly and i don't know they are

03:39:00.400 philosophical and not logic of course it is it's been historically manual historically why because

03:39:06.160 they've been excluded no it's there no no that's not it yeah that's not it okay no even when you

03:39:10.740 even the playing field right i think some nordic country even the playing field it turns out like

03:39:15.240 you just said minutes ago that the disparity ends up being a function of choice do you think

03:39:21.480 that people exist in vacuums and are still not socialized into certain fields and thus the

03:39:27.480 entire historical backdrop disappears once generally women do what you want no generally

03:39:33.340 women are not interested in philosophy and all this shit okay no generally yeah that's true i don't i

03:39:39.120 don't what do you mean no i don't find okay cool i don't i don't care though then i'm going to find

03:39:43.760 a woman who sat i i know plenty of women i have a philosophy i have a very i have a very good friend

03:39:49.040 who's her um she's at nyu and she's getting a phd in philosophy and she's one of the smartest

03:39:54.080 individuals she's never gonna have kids i know okay and so you're just gonna find a woman who

03:39:59.440 doesn't have kids who you can have masturbatory philosophical conversations here's the thing is

03:40:04.020 then you are you are reducing types of intellectual conversation as to that look men i'm talking to

03:40:09.560 you in the audience if you go on a date with a girl and she doesn't get your weird philosophical

03:40:13.940 thing don't fret i think you're intimidated by women who might be smarter no that's not it i think

03:40:19.340 it is no it's not are you intimidated jim bob i think so are you intimidated the woman generally

03:40:24.460 when you say just do it mill i can do all this shit everything i'm not they should look at you

03:40:31.460 with a blank stare no you want women to be dumb no yes i want them to be interested in what they're

03:40:38.160 valued at what where their value is yeah okay then you it's not dumb it's a it's a disinterest okay

03:40:45.160 you called it dumb i'm calling it generally a disinterest in that the indian manly and

03:40:50.280 intellectual well yes okay men and women are geared toward different things you just admitted

03:40:54.400 this just minutes ago and now and now you're finding what and not inherently these are entire

03:40:59.300 you are you are basing generalizations are not wait steady i don't think that women are less

03:41:05.600 interested in philosophy and highbrow things because inherently they are women i think that really

03:41:12.500 society pushes them in a different direction and how would you know that because i've had

03:41:17.420 conversations with women oh anecdotally well i don't know how do you want to look at least i'm

03:41:22.460 oh i see i see i see oliver if we did a poll for all the women and the answers came back i'm not

03:41:28.500 interested in philosophy you would just say well you just conditioned to be not interested no i mean

03:41:33.120 all of us are i don't think men are inherently more interested in intellectual stuff than women if men

03:41:39.340 are like yeah we're more interested in that i'd be like yeah the society is structured in that way

03:41:43.100 that makes sense no i don't think so i think it has to do with the way men think is uh they think in

03:41:49.560 in terms of like uh like systems and operations and doing stuff and activity and women are here hold

03:41:57.980 on and women because i know the women are geared toward people systematizing no no people and no

03:42:03.920 systematizing versus empathizing brains i've heard of this what study does it come i don't know it

03:42:07.680 comes from simon baron cohen he did not yeah yeah simon baron that's a comedian nope that's

03:42:12.120 satya baron cohen they are related though um it comes from a study it comes from a study in which

03:42:17.160 he did the primary study on toddlers and he determined that because the boy toddlers picked

03:42:22.820 more masculine things and like and wanted to play with trucks and things like that and the girls yeah

03:42:27.680 it is and the girls wanted to play with dolls and things of that nature that therefore boys are more

03:42:33.340 geared towards systematizing things and because it assumes that toddlers at that point are blank

03:42:38.820 slates and are not already imbued with all of these gender ideas no that's not it no no that's not the

03:42:44.600 study no the study was a was a was a nordic or switzerland or one of those countries where

03:42:50.000 he's the one who coined the term systematizing and no they basically said okay everyone we're

03:42:54.900 gonna reset women get to do anything we're gonna do a big big great social reset on expectations of

03:43:01.040 men and women you think you can do one hold on one year in one year how do you do the women women

03:43:05.960 it evened out that the women went toward for their own free their own free will by the way that's

03:43:10.860 even hold on this example they they know they went if you eat if you allow women to choose they choose

03:43:16.680 uh fields geared like uh nursing administration teaching motherhood because their entire life

03:43:25.980 no you're gonna say their conditions you don't you don't know their entire because that's how our

03:43:29.840 society is oh you mean the history of all of humanity has it geared that women are are geared

03:43:36.660 toward those kind of behaviors and men are geared toward the other ones it's just societal construction

03:43:41.780 right society has chosen just some way society has chosen to codify physical realities into social

03:43:49.160 reality you can't even just because absolute what do you mean you couldn't wait you agree that it is

03:43:54.960 you just think they also are no biological no i think they're biological and they're social and

03:44:00.080 the social stems from the biological yeah it's informed yeah okay and i'm saying that just because

03:44:04.900 something is ordered towards something if you didn't want to use that word i don't like that word

03:44:09.600 because it invokes this type of aristotelian uh tautology you couldn't look look it's simple look

03:44:14.460 oliver you couldn't use the social programming to supersede the biological presets of course you

03:44:22.660 can no you can't how can you not how wait a second men would you agree are biologically more

03:44:28.120 predisposed to aggression yeah okay then how can you socialize men so that they don't go on you know

03:44:34.980 they don't go on mass murder sprees what do you mean that that's a way no the someone men could have

03:44:40.600 a predisposition to aggression yes and express aggression without going on murder sprees and

03:44:45.740 you can but can you socialize men to be less aggressive you can try but it doesn't work what

03:44:50.320 are you talking about the heist the the the the public school system is a perfect example you know

03:44:54.460 what you know what happens when you do that you then you psychologize them and say these boys are

03:45:00.120 being very aggressive they're they're misbehaving as opposed to oh no they're just boys let's give

03:45:05.820 them let's give them ritalin and give them drugs right because they're acting so boyish that's crazy

03:45:10.580 i agree not but i'm not advocating for over medicalization if you're saying you can if

03:45:15.660 you're saying you can socialize them out of being boys out of being boys but you're assuming that

03:45:20.280 being a boy means expressing your aggression in a certain type of way yeah i don't i generally i

03:45:25.800 think a lot of men know a language of violence and this comes back to the fourth doctrine it's necessary

03:45:31.360 sure at the fundamental level violence you didn't know the way that power happens wait you don't you

03:45:38.160 don't have older brothers do you um you have a younger sister i have no biological siblings okay

03:45:43.320 that makes sense you should have been beaten up as a as a kid oh wow okay well from a brother i have

03:45:48.380 three older brothers this makes a lot of sense why you hold the views no it's necessary it's why big

03:45:53.440 families are better is because they fucking beat each other up well yeah it actually is a pecking order

03:45:58.420 that's necessary for you to understand a place in the world now it's not an accident that you're an only

03:46:04.140 child and you hold a female view of the world okay all right sounds good i mean i'm just saying

03:46:10.520 you know you don't if you want to reduce you have the capacity to use aggression right of course i do

03:46:16.180 okay when's the last time you used it use aggression yeah violence i didn't need to no when's the last

03:46:22.940 time you did um i mean someone i can remember this i mean this is an example i brought up in one of my

03:46:32.020 videos was i was on the subway in washington dc and this guy sat down next to this girl and was

03:46:37.140 being very creepy and inching towards her closer and i stared this dude dead in the eye and i would

03:46:41.520 not take his eyes off him and literally like moved closer to him and he got up and left so that's an

03:46:46.400 example of me using a male presence to get this and the presence is the conveying of the potential

03:46:52.580 the potentiality of violence right yeah in a sense right yeah so that's what's interesting

03:46:59.060 is that the justice that you wanted to deploy rests wholly on the potentiality of force which is

03:47:07.980 hold on that's a woman couldn't do a woman couldn't do that there are different yeah absolutely men and

03:47:12.540 women are viewed differently in society but hold on hold on hold on no there are different ways to

03:47:18.020 resolve certain conflicts i'm saying that you shouldn't resort to aggression when there are

03:47:23.760 methods of communication that can lead to a more mutually understandable outcome yeah but like i

03:47:29.500 don't if two people are having a disagreement is a fist fight usually the best way to solve wait a

03:47:34.640 second but oliver in the example you gave me your communication was violence is next so it's still

03:47:40.640 pointing to violence in wait i'm saying it's some yes i'm not saying that violence i'm not going back

03:47:46.180 to that i'm not saying that aggression is always wrong that it should never be you're saying

03:47:50.740 negotiation first but even yes what i'm saying is that even if you go to negotiation first right

03:47:56.460 this is like argumentation ethics it's like yeah you can use that and maybe lower the risk of being

03:48:02.380 hurt yourself but ultimately you're making an or else statement what do you do this or else no if two

03:48:10.540 people have a disagreement on something i don't think it has to escalate into violence no i'm not saying

03:48:15.860 that i'm saying even you'll know communication fails yeah you're gonna know when violence is

03:48:20.620 necessary sure and i think very often men believe violence is necessary and employ it when it is in

03:48:27.560 fact not necessary someone said something mean about your mom and you decide the right response

03:48:33.120 is to go beat the shit out of them no it's not it's not it's either that's not you know what i think

03:48:38.820 i think that's if you want to talk about i think it's men not knowing how to manage their emotions

03:48:42.340 no i think the management of the emotion is conveyed through the fifth i think that that is

03:48:47.980 an incorrect uh management of emotions that causes much more harm and doesn't lead to any mutual

03:48:53.160 understanding of hey let's not degrade women in order to kind of prop ourselves up as men you know

03:48:58.680 what i mean that's what that type of thing is you know making insults towards people's mother

03:49:02.220 so yeah i don't think you should do that and i don't think you should use violence to solve that

03:49:08.220 well i think you should fight more okay well i'm not gonna uh okay we're gonna let a few more chats

03:49:13.660 come through one more thing we'll do closing statements then we'll get this wrapped up we have

03:49:16.940 uh brett here thank you for the message brett brett shrives donated thirty dollars

03:49:23.340 jim bob w paradoxical man fighting on behalf of feminist male

03:49:28.060 uh brett thank you for the message appreciate it we have kit here thank you kit coming in in just a

03:49:34.360 moment i lowered tts to 20 donated thirty dollars w oliver for debating this guy did you guys ever

03:49:41.880 agree on a definition of feminism uh pretty much i mean i pretty much accepted your term i i still kind

03:49:50.700 of reduce it to power itself ends up being the the the thing that's really there like you can say

03:49:58.340 like oh there's a structure and then there's people in positions of power and administrative positions

03:50:03.800 and all this but in the end it's like a bunch of dudes in a with guns are going to take over so

03:50:10.020 i mean and i think the issue that i largely have with that is i agree on a base level that's you

03:50:14.860 know yeah but you know i i actually agree with you that might makes you know whoever it does however i

03:50:20.300 think that might often has to be combined with some sort of strategical element you know what i mean

03:50:24.780 it's not it might might makes feminism you need to have some sort of enforcement mechanism i'm not

03:50:30.980 did not so can you say it might look at the camera and say might makes feminism you're trying

03:50:35.520 to do you agree enforcement makes feminism yeah enforcement fighting for stuff you believe in

03:50:40.540 makes men fighting makes feminism people fighting alongside each other and men fighting alongside

03:50:46.480 women to defend their rights okay does make feminism okay so you heard it here all right

03:50:51.000 we have ka thank you also kicker donated 29 and 99 cents can you honestly say feminism hasn't

03:51:00.360 majorly caused gender wars lack of meaningful relationship and increased divorce rates i find

03:51:07.420 that disingenuous if you think it's anything else but go on say sure i can respond really quickly um yes

03:51:13.120 you can i was there's a couple different things there i'm forgetting now it's like gender wars i don't

03:51:18.000 think it's led to more gender wars i think it's led to women um not tolerating shitty behavior and

03:51:23.880 not tolerating being put in a position where they are told what it means to be a woman and that they

03:51:28.140 must adhere to this rigid set of social norms and if that pisses men off and men get mad at women for

03:51:33.380 not wanting to submit to their demands uh that's not women's fault for you know you know demanding

03:51:40.120 something different um and in the sense of like higher divorce rates this one always is really

03:51:44.900 interesting because it's like oh you know when women make more money they get divorced more often

03:51:49.160 as like oh that's a terrible thing it's like when women are financially independent when individuals

03:51:53.300 are financially independent and not you know dependent on the other spouse uh yeah they might

03:51:58.340 leave if they feel a relationship is unfair but if the relationship is unfair and they're not happy

03:52:02.080 with the terms and uh they're not financially independent they don't have that financial luxury to

03:52:07.040 leave that relationship so i don't think that's a counter whatsoever at all okay we have selena

03:52:12.740 thank you selena selena gone is donated 32 and 10 cents he just made the female i've dated guys

03:52:20.540 that met all my standards argument by pointing out how he's friend zoned by the smartest girl he knows

03:52:27.020 poor guy i'm not going to go into the details of that because i don't want to that is not actually

03:52:34.240 what happened um no all right thank you selena and then we have uh oh wow sons of liberty okay

03:52:41.920 sons of liberty donated 19 and 99 cents listen fuckhead if my girl and i are in 1653 america i'm

03:52:52.660 going out hunting and checking on threats at night she cleans slash organizes the house garden and

03:52:59.460 fixes i'm a little confused why you don't do that natural states of men and women i'm confused i want

03:53:04.040 to i want to add to this this is key i wish i brought it up more is that i did mention that what

03:53:09.580 that chat is pointing to you correctly saying is that uh feminism itself in its in its ideals is

03:53:16.040 um a function of modernity and luxury and decadence in the instance where shit hits the fan

03:53:22.180 get no no listen just like gender uh pronouns and shit the i call it concerns that go with food

03:53:29.680 shortages the moment the moment the scarcity hits and shit hits the fan sure these things are gone

03:53:34.940 right this makes total sense i don't see this is a bad thing at all so it's a luxury no no wait a

03:53:39.040 second it's called the fallacy of relative probation i don't know if you're familiar with it it's this

03:53:42.460 idea that larger problems or larger injustices or larger pertinent needs diminish the severity or

03:53:48.760 importance of smaller ones there's no injustice okay but then you're just making another fall

03:53:54.020 you're making a you're making a circular argument there's no justice hold on hold on you're saying

03:53:59.180 these concerns aren't valid because you already don't agree with the concerns no even if i grant you the

03:54:03.880 concerns if i granted the concerns that there's there's this problem where where men are oppressing

03:54:09.880 the women and there's all these like accepted expected um gender norms that are contrived and

03:54:15.580 constructed what the what the person who just super chatted uh just basically demonstrated is that

03:54:20.760 the argument that that gendered roles are constructs of modern modern times or whatever the society is

03:54:28.360 goes away as soon as the society breaks down and you're back in the woods what happens when you're

03:54:34.140 back in the woods dude yeah i agree but what we're kind of advanced beyond that right no no the point is

03:54:41.680 the advancement that feminism and this sort of delusional take is a symptom of decadence and

03:54:48.760 luxury no it's the moment that's removed like there's if there's a bomb dropping on some chick's

03:54:54.120 head so you know and she she gets buried buried in the uh rubble and someone goes let's help her the

03:55:00.060 last thing on their mind is correcting the pronoun same thing with feminism of course i don't disagree

03:55:04.600 with that that's just the that's just the factual claim that you should focus on larger problems

03:55:10.360 over smaller ones actually wait i want to probably agree with you here a little bit i think the left and

03:55:15.560 this is a mistake that the left often makes is they hyper fixate on infighting and over who's right

03:55:21.020 over winning power i completely agree a lot that we know it doesn't matter how right you are

03:55:26.280 if you don't have power if you don't have the ability to enforce what you you know want to do so it did

03:55:32.140 you know all of these all these people on the left who are like you know we need to you know correct

03:55:36.060 this person on this or we need to completely shun them from our movement because they express this one

03:55:40.760 view that differs slightly from us they're hurting our cause so i will call that out any day as saying

03:55:46.200 we need to have a bigger tent and not a smaller tent and i think that this idea of you know shunning

03:55:51.900 people or like you know saying these things are i don't know irredeemable like just like insane i don't

03:55:58.800 i don't agree with that so okay we have two more coming in selena gornaz thank you selena gornaz

03:56:04.600 donated 23 and 45 cents of course that isn't what happened poor guy i honestly feel for you

03:56:12.960 but i can see you're smart so i think you will come around eventually i think this is in response

03:56:19.060 to the something about being friend zoned or something yeah i don't know i'm not i'm not gonna

03:56:23.760 i'm not gonna divulge the details of a personal situation sure but all what the oliver smother

03:56:29.320 donated twenty dollars brian could you move that dumpy i can't see jim bop's shoulders thank you

03:56:36.920 slowly but surely that's crazy uh thank you uh thank you for that message all right uh final thing

03:56:44.220 here from you oliver then we'll do closing statements uh there was this prompt on your

03:56:49.620 tiktok is miss misandry more loud than misogyny misandry misandry yeah what what's your position

03:56:56.260 on that i kind of already did we do already we didn't talk about that specifically but i'm

03:57:00.580 sorry we didn't talk about that specifically but i mean we that's what i talked about in the

03:57:05.380 jubilee video that i was a part of i mean i do think misogyny is much more prevalent than

03:57:09.380 misandry hatred of women is much more prevalent than the hatred of men um you know a lot of these

03:57:14.480 things that we conceive of as hatred i just fundamentally don't think are actually hating

03:57:19.980 men can you give us some examples of that sure like examples of like so for example if women

03:57:24.180 express i hate men um i think very often we understand we very often understand people's

03:57:30.320 non-literal use of language so for example if i say oh my god i'm so mad i'm gonna kill him

03:57:35.080 but you never actually kill someone it's plausible to say you don't actually want to kill this person

03:57:41.580 same thing with kill all men same thing with with uh with like i i hate men these women obviously

03:57:47.160 don't hate men considering most of them have men in their lives that they love they have uh you know

03:57:52.640 many of them can be in relationships when they're saying that they're expressing a dissatisfaction

03:57:57.360 with the way that society is structured and how a certain portion of men are treating them so i don't

03:58:02.580 think that is indicative of the hatred of men it's the hatred of how men are treating them so i don't i

03:58:10.260 don't see an example of misandry that is brought up that can parallel the fact that like three women

03:58:17.340 die a day in this country due to intimate partner violence at the hands primarily of men so except

03:58:22.920 for lesbian relationships they're pretty aggressive i don't i don't pretty high rate of uh pulling each

03:58:29.040 other's hair okay i i have not looked into the i don't i don't have anything to comment on that because

03:58:34.320 i have not looked into uh i actually i mean i kind of agree with you generally that like the hate i

03:58:39.760 don't this term hatred of from either side is very hard to judge i just think there's uh

03:58:45.340 i think there's misinterpretations of uh of how women think of men and how men think of women i

03:58:52.520 think the mig towel thing is a little bit you can kind of isolate that i think exploring some of that

03:58:58.700 mig tower you aware of what that is it's like men going their own way kind of thing i think that's a

03:59:03.260 misstep for men and like like abandoned women yeah it's a whole like yeah like that's i think that's a

03:59:09.200 mistake um and that's the closest thing i could get to like you know misogyny as far as their rhetoric

03:59:16.100 but men who want women to be in at the in the home i think that's a value of women and i think people

03:59:21.720 who are in your view perhaps need to consider that maybe the person is arguing for that is actually

03:59:28.280 thinks wholeheartedly that the best place for them for women is actually is actually i think i think

03:59:35.600 relegating a whole subset of human beings who are so diverse in their wants desires and needs i don't

03:59:43.180 care about their desires yeah thank you for expressing that you don't care about the why

03:59:47.020 would they why no no my own obli look but my own obligations as a father isn't based on my desires

03:59:53.080 either so it's not like it's not like men are saying we get to fulfill our desires and we don't

03:59:59.120 want women to you are fulfilling what you believe are the ideal desires of women against their wishes

04:00:05.240 well no men have to do that too because not all men men don't generally wish to put themselves in

04:00:12.300 the line of fire to defend this this weird abstract idea of women's liberation either what do you talk

04:00:18.420 women expect men to hold the obligation to defend their rights women expect men yeah to use the power

04:00:27.280 and privilege that they have that's right and we expect and men expect women to fulfill their

04:00:32.680 obligation of having children being a mother that's not how the obligation why not you who says who

04:00:37.160 no because this i don't think that there's this somehow reciprocal why not because what you're

04:00:43.560 saying is basically because you are in need and i can help you i'm going to leverage the fact that i

04:00:49.900 have more power over you to get something out of you and i think that's it's not leverage yeah it is

04:00:55.800 no it's it's not even uses leverage it's basically just stating the fact if men have the obligation

04:01:01.820 and the fulfillment of using their bodies and and protecting women and upholding the the the literal

04:01:07.700 the the actual nation in its logistics and how it operates from the from bridges to to fuck everything

04:01:13.940 else dude hold on so so women get to float around in this perfect society a sims made just for them

04:01:20.400 it's not and when and they and feminists like you and other women say well men you know you guys have

04:01:26.360 to defend our rights right and then we go yeah but men are obligated to be yeah but what are we

04:01:30.720 getting in return you shouldn't you shouldn't need something in return to be up to be a good person

04:01:34.880 so to maintain society we shouldn't expect from women to participate in the procreation of society

04:01:40.240 they absolutely should participate in the procreation should we expect them to um i think that if a man

04:01:45.100 wants to marry a woman and wants to have your children you're sexist absolutely how no wait a

04:01:49.880 second i'm not at all i'm claiming no no wait i'm claiming sexist okay what are we gonna do this

04:01:55.200 okay if are you gonna let me make my point yeah one more time okay sexist yeah you're gonna say it

04:01:59.900 again okay if we're expecting men to um how you know men are allowed to have preferences men are allowed

04:02:05.900 to say look i don't want to marry a woman who doesn't want children because children are important

04:02:08.360 to me there's nothing sexist about that there's nothing sexist what's sexism what's sexist i'll let you

04:02:14.260 have your definition of it sure my definition of it i would say that it would be um contempt for or

04:02:19.960 you know double standards yeah double standards on the basis of sex sex cool so isn't it a double

04:02:26.800 standard that women and society at large depend and expect i didn't add something to my definition

04:02:33.200 like unfair or like ungrounded so unfair i don't know who's determining fair but isn't it the case that

04:02:39.580 it would be sexist which i have no problem be people being sexist yeah no surprise there well no

04:02:44.240 it's not a wrong thing if it's sexist means simply to assume obligation or expectation from

04:02:50.860 one sex based on sex alone yeah no is that sexist yeah uh yeah i don't think you should do that

04:02:55.140 inherently on sex hold on do you accept do you expect men being the collective body of force

04:03:00.840 to defend and uphold the the justice system and law and order and not because they're men but because

04:03:06.380 they're stronger and those things are different they are different no no way to win it it's not

04:03:10.300 because if there are women who are stronger they also have the obligation to protect those who are

04:03:17.920 less vulnerable than them it's not because they are male okay so it's because they are okay so and

04:03:23.960 and women are capable of having children so how is it that you're deriving how is it you're deriving

04:03:30.080 an obligation for men and women based on their strength which is an immune like some characteristics of

04:03:35.500 their body and being able to have children is another characteristic of a body but you're not

04:03:39.720 applying obligations to that wait i think that people in general i i don't because i don't think

04:03:45.000 there needs to be reproductive obligations because i think we can get to the society i'm not really

04:03:49.960 the site that we're at now which is like 1.2 you're under replacement we are under replacement

04:03:54.480 and this is some stats and stuff that i brought up we see in i closed my ipad so i'm not gonna bring

04:03:59.600 up the exact stats right now we see a large return to replacement in societies that emphasize having

04:04:06.440 stronger social programs and economic you mean immigration no not immigration i was not even

04:04:10.680 talking about immigration i'm talking about social programs i'm talking about making it financially

04:04:13.320 more feasible to have children having things like universal health care making it more easy for

04:04:17.160 people to receive educations and things like that we see people willingly and voluntarily start

04:04:20.720 families because it is easy to do so so we don't have to tell women they have to be in the home

04:04:25.980 instead i've already debunked that because there are poor people who don't have any social programs

04:04:30.360 and they're having a lot of more kids what happens is it a good thing or a bad thing it's fine for

04:04:34.020 them because they have what do you mean is it a good or a bad thing to have because you i assume

04:04:38.660 wait hold on do you think it's a problem of there being i started having people who are dependent on

04:04:43.540 the government like all the people the people all these people are poor and they're having children

04:04:46.760 and they're just like on welfare you just argued dude you just contradicted yourself you said

04:04:50.840 let's start a welfare system that aids people to have kids and then you're saying and i go i point

04:04:57.300 to poor people and right i point to poor people having more kids and you go yeah but welfare is

04:05:02.220 and that's not a good thing no no i'm saying that a lot of you you guys on your side of the aisle

04:05:06.300 whatever that is um don't want you know it's like you know if you can't afford to have a kid don't

04:05:11.820 don't have a kid maybe maybe you're not arguing i don't know i had a kid when i was poor as shit

04:05:16.140 okay no i think that i think i don't think that like that's just a preference it's like you think

04:05:22.420 you're ready uh when you have money to have a kid but having a kid isn't reduced to materialism and

04:05:28.340 providing only there's this whole other set of having a child right financially take care of a

04:05:32.520 child do you think it's responsible for them to have a child yeah they can still raise a child who's

04:05:37.720 how can you poor i grew up poor sure dude dude i come from a family of five and we're dirt poor so i

04:05:43.100 don't understand okay and do you think it on balance is better if people sometimes it's worse

04:05:47.760 if they're rich okay i i don't i i think that were you rich holding all else equal was he rich

04:05:53.240 um trust fund what no no trust fund almost i mean my dad was a trumpet player in the orchestra so he's

04:06:00.420 a musician for a long period of time so he was poor they make bank the or do they the trumpet first

04:06:05.720 no not really is there a first second chair in trumpet he was he was first but you still don't get

04:06:09.900 that much in the arts yeah that makes sense yeah it's the arts i mean well he's a virtuoso right

04:06:14.380 he's he's he's a very he's a very good trumpet player i mean he was the only guy i got into

04:06:18.360 juilliard the year he graduated so good guy did he force you away from music he was like be a lawyer

04:06:24.020 he didn't force you away i actually it was funny i tried to take trumpet lessons from him and he was

04:06:27.800 like oliver well why would i why would i uh do this to you why would i teach you no why would i teach

04:06:33.080 you trumpet lessons you don't listen to me with other things as a parent i know you don't listen to

04:06:36.760 other things i say i'm like yeah dad but when it comes to trumpet you actually know what you're

04:06:40.420 talking about so he didn't he didn't like that did you learn it like are you more of a saxophone guy

04:06:45.220 i'm not really i'm i mean i did musical theater for a while but i could see that performing arts

04:06:50.580 this is a type of five thousand seven thousand six hundred you were in rent weren't you five hundred

04:06:55.900 twenty five thousand six hundred you were in it i was not in rent yes you were i was not in cats

04:06:59.540 nope i do not like cats that is a bad show i'm it's interesting book a mormon interesting that

04:07:05.080 you have uh no it's interesting you have so much knowledge of musical theater not much no just

04:07:08.500 the three main ones you're wearing you're wearing a shirt you're wearing that shirt just just you

04:07:12.100 just the one of musical theater just the one about aids and cats that's the only one there it is

04:07:16.320 there it is okay guys um we're about to have them do their closing statements twenty dollar tts i'm

04:07:21.020 gonna let these come through then we'll do the rest if there's any after the closing statements

04:07:25.220 based thor thank you man based thor donated twenty dollars brian i'm gonna report you to the

04:07:32.220 california dmv for operating a dump truck without a commercial driver's license

04:07:37.280 all right thank you for that uh base thor thank you appreciate it we have selena again

04:07:44.360 uh-oh selena gone is donated twenty three dollars and forty five cents of course you won't divulge

04:07:52.520 details poor guy also successful women aren't leaving because they're being treated poorly they're leaving

04:07:59.760 cause they think they can do better or are doing too much okay thank you all right

04:08:04.560 with the gospel donated twenty dollars as the eldest of eight i can confirm beating the shit out of your

04:08:13.380 younger siblings makes them better jim bob is right interesting how he said not the youngest of eight

04:08:17.760 as the one who is doing the beating the shit out of the people it's well the thing is i was the

04:08:23.140 young i have three older brothers but i learned to be extremely aggressive back to to fight them

04:08:29.680 off and that was it's really helpful nice for what well what is it helpful for well in case i need

04:08:34.980 to do that in the future with why do you why do you need to be beating the shit out of in order

04:08:39.040 in case i have to beat the shit out of someone well then is there a better way to take self-defense

04:08:43.620 classes to learn that that just adds to my already existing uh practice though it's like it's not one

04:08:49.200 or the other dude i don't think we need kids beating the shit out of each other in order to learn

04:08:53.440 he's being hyperbolic like let's say it's valuable especially for boys i don't know i have no problem

04:08:59.440 with roughhousing i have no problem with roughhousing i think when you say like beating the shit out of

04:09:03.360 i think of like an older brother who's just like treats his black guy like shit like get a black guy

04:09:07.940 all right we got justin what the justin martin's donated twenty dollars i'll bet vaginas dry up within a

04:09:16.620 50 foot radius of oliver at all times he's like an x-man but i would i would i would yeah i don't

04:09:24.520 know i feel like would that be a superpower to have that effect on women i don't know that's what most

04:09:32.240 i think i think most i don't know i think i think most incels have that negative they have that

04:09:37.160 superpower male walking male birth control aren't there some x-men that it's like they have a negative

04:09:41.600 ability the the negative the negative effect on i don't i don't know yeah all right intel thank you

04:09:48.740 man intel will donated twenty dollars w jimbo don't don't don't don't in the chat nice dude intel thank

04:09:56.760 you for that we have one more coming in here oh wow they are they are uh wow they are yeah they're

04:10:04.100 saying things jason castle donated twenty dollars dude oliver you are so g at y it's good to know go home

04:10:11.160 drink a beer watch a violent movie go to a bar and fight the biggest guy and take his girl just

04:10:18.100 here's here's what i'll say i'm i'm i guess is that because i can't tell if that's a compliment or an

04:10:23.580 insult because he calls me gay but then claims that he thinks i'd be able to go to a bar and beat up the

04:10:27.920 biggest guy there and take his girl it's like older older brother energy he wants you to like

04:10:32.100 go go live out as a man i feel very comfortable being a man in my masculinity absolutely so you never

04:10:39.660 once i've never once felt insecure in that okay so all right well i don't feel i have to prove myself

04:10:45.840 manly enough by exuding sounds like someone who was raised by a trumpeter okay my father's one of

04:10:52.520 the strongest people i know would you rather be raised by a trumper or a trumpeter yeah what about

04:10:58.700 somebody who played what did weird owl play what was that accordion accordion yeah that's gotta be

04:11:04.220 rough yeah that's gotta be really rough unless it's weird owl but yeah any other then it's over yeah

04:11:08.720 i know some i know one what though like i think they secretly the accordion players they

04:11:13.800 they kind of get women well yeah accordion players it's a it's like a pity thing though oh it's like

04:11:23.780 sad it's like it's a sad it's like the poor persons it's a pity thing okay uh oh wait here

04:11:28.860 we have this one then we'll do closing uh lulu hold on lulu oh boy okay

04:11:33.580 hold on lulu donated 19 dollars and 99 cents get chbob another beer and a shirley temple for the

04:11:42.160 fruit lube oliver was getting turned on watching chbob obliterate him he's hoping to go him with

04:11:48.080 him or brian tonight dude don't don't spoil it i was trying to make a move after donated 20

04:11:53.940 dollars oliver if i was the youngest the oldest he felt his responses were 20 bucks i think it's

04:12:00.900 really funny wi-fi uh we have a big super chat here chef dylan wow by the way guys so anytime you see a

04:12:07.580 super chat and it's like uh 99 cents usually that means that you sent it through uh apple ios so you

04:12:15.960 sent it through like iphone ipad whatever so apparently i just learned this they take 30 percent

04:12:21.260 yeah apple takes 30 percent and then youtube after that takes 30 percent oh so if it's a if it's a

04:12:28.620 hundred dollars 40 they end up taking a total of uh 51 so you're left with 49 so it's already bad

04:12:35.900 just doing it through youtube they take 30 but if you do it through youtube on ios so ios yeah

04:12:42.900 i'm uh i'm challenged english is my uh second language what was your first french oh yeah so

04:12:49.880 that's why i butchered misandry misandry earlier if you caused an accident you would have to give up

04:12:56.360 your autonomy to pay the person with your money earn through your body's actions i mean sure but then

04:13:01.620 this kind of just breaks down to the distinction of is there a meaningful distinction between your

04:13:05.320 money and your body and you know there's you know the libertarians till they're blue in the face

04:13:09.300 will say that taxation is slavery because you're taxing my money which i get through my labor which

04:13:14.200 is taxing my labor i don't know i intuitive to me they're intuitively to me there's a difference

04:13:18.600 between someone taxing money um and like demanding that i donate a pint of blood to cancer research or

04:13:24.980 something so i i don't think they're necessarily equivalent and i think there's an argument to be

04:13:29.280 made that there is a difference between the two that the reason we're justified in having someone pay

04:13:33.780 damages if they're in an accident is acceptable but like giving up their kidney would be like

04:13:38.300 a massive bridge too far and so speaking of that guys if you're watching and you're using uh

04:13:45.320 iphone ipad to send in the super chats youtube and apple have taken a hundred dollars of this

04:13:52.340 so you know you want the stream labs venmo cash app here you can uh because you know you these woke

04:14:01.060 mega corps you you want to support the whatever podcast don't give it to them you know so anyways uh

04:14:08.020 okay thank you chef dylan for the soup chat though much appreciated and uh all right so we're gonna

04:14:13.640 do closing since uh you went first uh jim bob you're gonna go first with uh your closing statement

04:14:19.660 then oliver you'll go last all right well first of all thanks oliver for coming out and uh brian for

04:14:24.820 powering through this um so yeah feminism you know the main the main thing with feminism is

04:14:31.760 it's it's often argued that it's the just thing to do it's what we should we should move forward

04:14:37.060 toward something but when we ask the the person the proponent of feminism what it looks like it

04:14:43.100 every time it ultimately relies on men um uh fulfilling this duty of upholding this society so that women

04:14:50.780 could pretend that they have liberty really it's just an allowance so if the if if uh feminism is

04:14:58.300 merely an allowance from men the question is okay if men are allowing you liberty what is the exchange

04:15:04.960 that we get from women which comes down to obligations ultimately so from the uh affirmative

04:15:12.380 position tonight there is no real obligations uh he prefers that men hold an obligation to defend

04:15:19.000 society defend rights um even though uh it's a sexist view because it's it's an expectation of men

04:15:25.840 um to do things that you don't expect of women collectively because you know that there is no

04:15:31.820 society that upholds its rights it's just a system it's law without the collective of primarily men

04:15:38.260 even if there's some butch chicks who can join the squad it doesn't matter ultimately the reality is

04:15:44.640 females want liberation but they ask for it and the reason they ask for it is because they can't give

04:15:51.740 themselves liberation they they aren't collectively capable of giving themselves liberation men are

04:15:59.040 capable collectively of giving themselves liberation and taking liberation so the question for feminists

04:16:05.000 is always the same thing do you expect men who hold the enforcement arm to provide for you to have your

04:16:13.580 liberation and they say yes we ask them what are you going to do with it they said we're going to work

04:16:18.400 for nike and abort our own kids that's what we get in return for giving women liberation we're going

04:16:24.460 to vote for uh basically expanded welfarism we're going to turn the government into a daycare system

04:16:30.680 this is what you get from feminism feminism takes what's powerful and beautiful and right and good

04:16:40.180 about women sex their sex their ability to procreate and their ability to be mothers

04:16:47.540 it inverts it and sells it to them to to waste it away in their most fertile years uh by starting

04:16:55.520 only fans account and uh and adding their body count to upwards to 50 to 100 it's garbage is trash

04:17:02.440 uh no man should support uh female liberation or feminism it has failed it's at its it's uh peak

04:17:08.760 it's at the end glory to god and uh the next phase is back to the home and no it's not oppressive

04:17:16.320 when women were back in the home when when women were uh were raising children they were revered they

04:17:23.380 were protected they were seen as um as as the class of people that nobody messed with and they said well

04:17:31.720 against the rest of the women can we just get ourselves into to these high-rise offices and

04:17:37.780 give me a lanyard i can't wait to accrue debt it's amazing i'm liberated you're not liberated

04:17:43.560 you're living a lie feminism is a lie and like i said before feminism requires the patriarchy anyway

04:17:52.800 and uh with that thanks again for coming out okay oliver go ahead well i had a prepared closing

04:17:59.740 statement but since this really didn't go uh according to any sort of a you know guideline

04:18:05.680 that i thought um i'll just kind of say my final thoughts here um i think there still is a massive

04:18:12.740 is ought claim that is being made you know you can you can say till you're blue in the face that

04:18:17.760 this is how society is this is how it fundamentally will be if we're left to our own devices but i think

04:18:23.020 one of the beautiful things about humans is that we have the capacity for reason and we have the

04:18:27.080 capacity to better our society against our biological impulses and i think that that is something that

04:18:35.040 feminism advocates feminism does not say that you know denies the difference between men and women

04:18:40.160 denies that you know men are on average stronger than women it says to men look you you do have

04:18:45.660 this power you are stronger um you know you ought to use it in such a way that does not hurt

04:18:51.560 individuals and there's a element of paternalism here i mean you heard jim bob a lot compare you know

04:18:57.180 like treating women to treating children and you know i think it's a problem is these people

04:19:01.500 fundamentally and he's nodding right now view women is infants view women is infantilized and i think

04:19:07.120 that that is why feminism is so necessary and continue to fight against these ideas where you

04:19:13.340 know that these people do not view women as you know rational human beings i mean we had this whole

04:19:18.700 conversation surrounding intellect and i think that you know it's really unfortunate that this is the type

04:19:23.800 of uh ideas that are becoming more and more prevalent um and i think that as long as these ideas are

04:19:29.620 continuing to be uh spread it only proves the further need for feminism um i really wasn't able to get

04:19:34.820 into a lot of the empirics of the good things of feminism um but there have been many uh advancements

04:19:40.180 and benefits since the uh arrival of feminism and can be directly attributed to it um society works better

04:19:46.880 when men and women work alongside each other not um you know one person designated to the home one in

04:19:52.320 the workplace but alongside each other as you know definitely intellectual equals and realizing that

04:19:58.740 physical reality uh does not is not determinant it does not determine things necessarily you know the

04:20:05.060 strong ought not rule the weak um and the strong even if they have the power to um make others submit

04:20:11.960 to their will i think one of the most you know defining things about masculinity is um using your you know

04:20:18.960 power effectively and using your power to benefit uh the less well off and um those who are at a

04:20:25.380 disadvantage um and not using it to further oppress them so in that sense i think that's why feminism

04:20:30.780 is necessary and you know i hope that we will see um more uh views of this nature um proliferate and

04:20:39.260 less of a slide back towards this view that women uh you know have this role that they ought to be in so

04:20:44.240 um i think a society is better when we trust women and it is in the virtue of trusting women that i

04:20:51.220 uh affirm that feminism has caused great benefits to society and is overall a good for society so

04:20:57.660 that's all i got all right thank you both uh thank you to both of you for uh doing the debate i thought

04:21:04.340 it was uh i thought it was really good uh oliver we actually have you back in i think about two weeks

04:21:09.500 you're going to be facing up against uh andrew wilson for a sort of similar debate uh there's a couple

04:21:15.860 final things here i'm going to read that super chad christopher if you're saying men have an obligation to protect

04:21:20.700 because they have the biology to do so but women don't have an obligation to bear children

04:21:25.900 even though they have the biology to do so where is the equality quick answer on this if you'd like

04:21:30.740 i can give an answer i've given this before um one there might be some sort of parallel here

04:21:37.920 if the empirical claim was correct that if women are not in the home they fundamentally will not have

04:21:45.220 children and there's no way to rectify that through societal programs and economic enhancement

04:21:50.640 i don't think that's the case so it is true that those who are stronger have an obligation to

04:21:57.060 protect those who are weaker use that um to their benefit i do think that society is better off if

04:22:04.680 people reproduce and i think there are ways in which it doesn't have to be a trade-off women do not

04:22:10.480 have to give up their autonomy and their liberty and their freedom in order to be you know breeding stock

04:22:16.260 um we we can have our cake and eat it too actually um and it doesn't have to be one or the other so i

04:22:21.940 think this unfairly falsely dichotomizes an issue that um in which we can have both at the same time

04:22:27.320 got it and we have two uh stream labs messages coming in here i apologize my mic was turned the other

04:22:32.900 way i was just saying that oliver will be joining us in about two weeks for he's has a

04:22:37.580 one-on-one debate with andrew wilson so that'll be good be sure to tune in for that

04:22:42.360 we have selena here thank you selena gone is donated twenty three dollars and forty five cents

04:22:49.480 are you live tomorrow will jim bob be there too he's pretty funny i really appreciate how

04:22:56.360 unapologetic him and andrew are all three of you are dope don't stop doing what you do

04:23:02.160 you're needed yes selena thank you we will be live uh tomorrow should be a a good panel with our dating

04:23:08.900 talk total bluff donated twenty dollars what the fuck the feminist sounds like such a kid

04:23:16.100 and trump would probably grab him by the mouth this is the environment that's cultivated just want to say

04:23:22.120 that you mean people like shit posting in the chat you mean the internet the internet at large i mean

04:23:32.720 have you seen chicks what they say i mean are they making comments about grabbing people's genitalia

04:23:39.940 i mean yeah okay i think largely that's not a societal epidemic of women assaulting uh men one question for

04:23:47.880 you on that when it came you you mentioned trump's statements yeah as it relates to like the grab them

04:23:53.340 by the you know yeah um when you're talking about the differences between misogyny and misandry

04:24:00.480 you're saying when women say for example uh kill all men or men are trash uh men suck or whatever

04:24:07.900 whatever what was the other one uh i don't know i hate men uh i mean if if you're sort of i guess if

04:24:14.480 you're uh dismissing when women say this then couldn't you also apply this to basically any negative

04:24:22.160 statement towards women or minorities no because the power differential is not there it's it's here we go

04:24:27.160 if we take take a look at this um in general do you think it's kind of like i mean you probably

04:24:32.100 will bite this bullet but do you think it's morally equivalent when like a white person called a black

04:24:36.440 person the n-word versus when um like a black person uses the word cracker to refer to a white

04:24:41.620 person do you think those don't use that but i can't use that word yeah just say that like the c

04:24:45.140 word it's okay just the c word is not that but all right well just fine sake of the street okay

04:24:49.740 it's youtube and twitch okay fine did you think those two things are like

04:24:53.440 a like a quick like we could argue that maybe like neither of them is great but like i think

04:24:58.080 they're like we can historical context the n-word was the last word that a lot of black people heard

04:25:02.720 before they were like i don't know how can i say lynched like i don't know lynched yeah so like

04:25:07.660 that has a much bigger societal connotation than that word the c word that just gets like just do you

04:25:15.480 think uh sexism can exist towards men well that's the idea of misandry i think it can exist um and i

04:25:22.520 think a lot of examples of misandry are almost kind of like manifestations of misogyny so the

04:25:27.540 idea is that like men can't feel emotions or that men just have to man up or that male victims of abuse

04:25:32.760 aren't actually valid because or like if a man is abused by a woman it's like dude you should feel

04:25:38.320 lucky like i like the whole like school teacher thing like if a guy sleeps with uh his teacher

04:25:42.920 it's like oh you know he's he's really lucky for that it's like no he's groomed he was groomed by that

04:25:48.000 and i think that like that type of dismissiveness of male trauma could be categorized as a form of

04:25:53.360 misandry like unfair but i think that is an example of the societal standards we have

04:25:57.320 and how they negatively affect men so yeah so but just to be clear like hateful statements

04:26:02.880 said towards men it's okay i mean so it's not the power dynamics i think when we're talking about

04:26:10.400 statements like i hate men i and this is i don't know if it's something i've revised my position on

04:26:15.900 um but i don't fully have is it probably ideal for people to say what they mean um when they're

04:26:23.200 saying stuff i think so i think it is probably best clear up confusion um don't want like anyone

04:26:29.440 to get the wrong message however i think people use non-literal forms of language all the time if

04:26:35.340 someone says like oh my god i'm gonna kill him i'm so mad no one literally interprets that as

04:26:41.780 like they're going to kill this person especially if they've never killed anyone women are not

04:26:46.940 in mass numbers or even really any significant number offing men that's just it's not something

04:26:51.460 that's happening men are not a serious systemic risk of violence from women yeah it might hurt

04:26:55.480 some feelings and maybe it's not like a great thing to do especially maybe if you're trying to

04:26:58.960 get people on your side but the way that i view that type of discourse is women have been asking

04:27:03.240 politely to be treated better by men for so long hey we'd like it if you stop doing this and this is

04:27:08.440 actually getting men's attention it's like oh my god you say you hate me now i'm listening and i

04:27:13.520 think in that sense it is you know somewhat like you know pejorative and it might turn them off

04:27:17.740 but it at least gets them like having their ears open instead of just complaining oh that stupid

04:27:21.500 feminism stuff what you hate me i'm gonna listen i'm gonna listen even if it is with a critical eye

04:27:26.440 at least they're engaged in some sort of conversation but i mean don't you think that in terms of the

04:27:31.400 there's like i don't know if you've seen like that adolescence show i've seen it you know there's

04:27:36.500 all these criticisms of uh you know manosphere stuff or this this uh young young boys finding

04:27:45.220 an interest in andrew tate for example yeah um it seems like this narrative of just sort of open uh

04:27:54.900 man hatred that's kind of pushing people in that direction i mean maybe so i guess i would i would i

04:28:01.380 would ask you that i mean this is really interesting conversation what are some examples of like

04:28:04.960 misandry that you see or like hatred of men that you see are like prevalent in society

04:28:09.860 uh i mean just utterances okay individual utterances i mean yeah and do you think that

04:28:17.920 like always people's words should be understood literally if i say oh my god slay do you think i'm

04:28:24.780 gonna kill you slay i don't think that's fair though i think that's totally different than why

04:28:30.500 well i think there's a difference between hyperbole that is hyperbole i hate men women

04:28:35.960 do you do you really think that a majority of women genuinely hate all men of course not well

04:28:42.120 perhaps they don't hate all men they don't have like perhaps a generalized well okay for example if

04:28:46.380 a white person said uh the same thing about black people would you like take them at face value or to

04:28:51.300 be like and they're just joking well first off the hatred of white people towards black people has

04:28:56.080 historically throughout history been designed to like it was not in any way like rooted in like

04:29:02.580 a reality you know what i mean like that that's just that's just racism it's not like it's not

04:29:06.960 they're not they're not it's it's also a little bit like if if a black the correct response was like

04:29:12.160 if a black person says like i hate white people because of racist experiences that they'd experienced

04:29:15.940 i like i don't i think that just in general is that okay i just i think there are okay for i think

04:29:24.180 black people to hate white people or use no no hate i don't think you should hate women hating

04:29:31.040 all men there is this type of like biological essentialism which says that men because of

04:29:36.080 who they are are inherently evil i've seen this in like very few corners of the internet that's just

04:29:42.000 like you don't want to go there that's not a good place that's that's wrong those women are doing

04:29:46.860 something that is bad you should not genuinely think that like men because of their biology or their

04:29:51.480 genetics or their y chromosome are somehow like evil that's not the sentiment that is largely being

04:29:58.340 expressed in my view when women say i hate men and the reason is because it it's never the behavior

04:30:05.040 does not match the words which makes me which makes it an insincere form of hatred you're not you

04:30:12.180 don't actually hate these people would you give this same grace to men who said the same thing towards

04:30:16.380 women no because women and wait a second because men wait a second because men actually take out

04:30:21.340 their hatred on women by killing them well women poison men all time well okay i need more examples

04:30:28.380 of like well who do you think kills do you think men kill more women or women kill more men what do

04:30:32.400 you think is a more systemic pervasive issue men kill more men though do they hate men no using the

04:30:37.020 same logic because they're men yeah because they're do men kill men well that's your logic no they kill

04:30:42.140 women because they don't view women what you're talking about is violence by proximity you're

04:30:47.100 saying it's not it's violence that occurs because no you're using you're using the reasoning that if

04:30:52.300 men kill women it's because they hate women but when they kill men it's just wait because they don't

04:30:57.260 in a lot of these cases it's because they don't view women as full people or worthy of respect yeah i think

04:31:02.300 about it all the time the stalker case a woman turns down a man's advances he follows her home and he kills her

04:31:07.100 that's not an uncommon thing that unfortunately happens so that is that's pretty uncommon i mean

04:31:13.980 in the grand scheme of things yeah it does happen in terms of in terms of like in terms of like

04:31:18.140 intimate partner violence three women per day are killed by men yeah but partner the the domestic

04:31:24.700 violence um for lesbian couples is i don't look i don't it's higher so do they hate women do are they

04:31:30.460 killing are they are lesbians killing each other they're not if they were capable they were stronger they

04:31:34.300 would i don't think that's true i think if someone wants to kill someone they wish they would be able

04:31:37.420 to i mean women women can't even successfully no off themselves okay yeah they do they do fine they

04:31:44.780 they're not even yeah they they attempt at similar rates men do more because they use more methods

04:31:49.020 they're just better at it i think saying men are better at killing themselves and that's a good thing

04:31:53.020 about men is crazy but um no i didn't say it's good i said they're better at it okay it doesn't make

04:31:57.740 not it's not a good it doesn't say it's good well and and if we're talking about why that's the case i think

04:32:01.580 the male suicide rate is a problem and i think that we should and we should encourage men to instead

04:32:06.220 of like bottling up and never talking about their like feelings you just have to man up you have to

04:32:11.500 get through it emotions are just a woman's thing and you should not i don't know about that i actually

04:32:16.860 wonder how many uh men and ended up you know taking themselves out of the equation that um at the tail

04:32:26.540 end of looking too introspectively about all this i don't think that's the case i mean there are

04:32:31.020 specific studies that i found and this was one that i found when i was preparing for the other

04:32:34.140 debate that i did and it was men that hold particular views such as you know a lot of

04:32:38.380 more traditional views like you hold you know this idea of like depression isn't really a real thing

04:32:42.700 or like it's a weakness of the mind and you know that you know you need to man up and grit and power

04:32:47.580 through and that men have you know this role to be like super aggressive they're more than two like

04:32:52.300 two times as likely to kill themselves but there's a study i can actually provide you a study if you'd like

04:32:57.020 like unalive or oh my bad sorry alive yeah unalive themselves who hold those views i mean there's a

04:33:04.140 study out there i can provide it so i better understand can you further explain the whole

04:33:07.500 like okay when women say yeah uh i hate men all men suck whatever it is yeah you give them a bit of

04:33:14.780 grace on that statement but if a man says i hate all women or whatever it is why do women why do women

04:33:21.260 what teaches women to be afraid of men or not like answer my question well i will but i think this is

04:33:25.260 instructive i think i'm going to answer your question so what's your question well my question

04:33:28.940 is why do you think women are afraid of men or might express that as i hate men why maybe uh sure

04:33:35.260 either uh they've had a specific poor bad incident with a particular man they've heard from a friend

04:33:41.500 that this person has had a bad experience they've they have a society and culture that uh pushes

04:33:47.500 forth certain messaging when it comes to this there's the perhaps you might even agree with this uh the the

04:33:53.420 news cycle basically has people on high alert all the time because they're just hyper focusing on

04:34:00.540 these otherwise pretty rare occurrences and it's just a constant flow of like here's a terrorist

04:34:06.380 attack here's sure you know whatever it is so i mean and from talking with the women in my lives and

04:34:11.900 you know what when like at least from what i've heard from women i've listened to you know these types

04:34:17.820 of experiences especially like you know unwanted sexual encounters or sexual assault or sexual

04:34:21.580 harassment are scarily common like really common like it's like every i mean i i'd encourage you

04:34:28.460 guys you know to talk to the women in your life just like ask them hey have you had this type of

04:34:32.700 experience and and it's like it's it's scarily common so i think women's fear of men and sometimes

04:34:37.980 they're what what they express is hatred is a hatred with how they're being treated sure and i

04:34:44.220 realize they're not being perfect with language and one could argue that instead of saying i hate

04:34:49.900 men they should say i hate the way some men treat me and i totally understand that you know look i

04:34:55.820 struggle with this a lot too i'm a man when you say you you hate all men i'm offended because i'm a

04:35:00.460 member of that category and i feel that you're somehow impugning me for the actions of this shitty

04:35:04.860 guy that i had nothing to do with but i think what happens is when we do that we're focusing on

04:35:12.220 tone policing women more and we're making it about ourselves in a sense we're making it we're saying

04:35:17.660 like i hear what i instead of looking and listening to the message you're giving me i'm going to

04:35:22.300 immediately get on the defensive and make it about me you know what i mean so maybe actually brian in

04:35:27.740 an ideal world you're right women in a perfect world or like in a way we're like you know if i were

04:35:33.580 to advise a woman what should she say she should say you know i hate the way that some men treat me

04:35:38.860 but i think that as men we should use our big brain reasoning ability to say that look okay women

04:35:44.300 say they hate men but and all those women who go to the women's marches that you know jim bob thinks

04:35:49.500 are facades um and say that you know we hate men you know blah blah and they go home to men in their

04:35:55.980 lives and then they go you know have men in their life that they love they don't actually hate men what

04:36:01.660 they're doing is they're expressing a type of discontent and albeit probably in perfect language in

04:36:07.260 language that is less than optimal whatsoever at all but i just i i think fixating on this idea that

04:36:14.380 like this is systemic hatred of men just like it's it's it's it's it's not my bad can you can you

04:36:21.660 repeat that yeah what what specifically sorry i'm just kidding i was just kidding no uh you're gonna

04:36:27.180 make a great lawyer yeah i mean but the thing is though is that i don't think i i actually don't

04:36:33.900 dispute that uh many women uh have had bad encounters with men yeah i don't dispute this um

04:36:40.540 i've had bad encounters with men i've had bad encounters with women i think though when you're

04:36:45.180 gonna make statements like this uh one i just it's blatantly sexist but the other thing i would say is

04:36:52.220 that like again if if we sort of shift things a little bit and we replace men with a racial group

04:36:58.780 you'd be like whoa okay that for example if a white person anecdotally they had multiple

04:37:05.980 bad experiences with uh a racial minority who who in that racial minority what do you mean

04:37:12.780 because a lot i hear i hear this talking point a lot it's like oh black men are violent this type

04:37:17.100 of thing i'm not saying i'm not saying you're saying that i'm saying that but it doesn't matter

04:37:21.260 i think i think it can be i think it can be but the common denominator there would be a man

04:37:24.300 so if someone were hating like um like i guess like like oh yeah i have a prejudice against

04:37:30.060 african-americans because like an african-american like man once caused this it would it's it's the

04:37:35.820 male component that's doing the work there because i don't think they would be afraid of like black

04:37:38.940 women necessarily if they had a let's just say they just had a blanket uh they've had bad experiences

04:37:45.260 with black men and black women i think they have they they make certain negative statements about

04:37:51.340 i hate x racial sure and i think it's because throughout society that statement has never

04:37:58.460 been understood to mean we have we don't like the way i had this bad treatment or that there is a

04:38:04.780 systemic problem of the way black people treat white people that's that's not like there is there is

04:38:09.820 a arty blick connotation it's like i don't what's the right word what's the way to put it there the

04:38:13.900 the the statement i hate black people i don't i don't really want to see it on the podcast clip

04:38:17.580 it clip clip there we go there we go i'm sure it'll be um that statement has already had a

04:38:23.340 meaning ascribed to it but people already have a connotation it's like a similar thing of like

04:38:26.780 people who like take the swastika now and fly it and want to be like no it just means a symbol of

04:38:31.420 peace in my religion it's like well no that statement has already been so tainted by this previous

04:38:36.460 meaning that it can't mean something else because of how common it is the phrase i hate men has

04:38:41.660 never been accompanied by the systemic extermination of men it's never been accompanied by the systemic

04:38:46.780 subjugation of men it's never been but been accompanied by any actual like tangible harm

04:38:53.260 against men you don't think there's any harm i think there is harm in i think there is harm in

04:38:58.940 the case that like maybe it's not the most effective thing because it does turn men off and i'm not like

04:39:03.580 turn men away from the movement and i'm not trying to make a claim that like that's the way that women

04:39:07.500 ought to do it do you think it would cause transgender people harm if they

04:39:11.340 if somebody said uh like i hate trans people or uh kill all t people do you think that would cause

04:39:18.460 harm yeah but are t people like offing like what i don't are t people offing cis people it's the other

04:39:25.580 way around but what do you what's the meat like what's the that's already a thing it's like transphobia

04:39:31.020 and like the hatred of like trans people is already a prominent yeah we also have a word called sexism

04:39:36.220 and that would also apply to men sorry i'm the moderate you're good no it's fine well no this

04:39:41.180 is a post debate no well i think what what brian was pointing to is like if you're if it's fine to

04:39:48.140 extrapolate or generalize based on certain experiences and it's understandable he's just taking another

04:39:54.860 group and from those experiences or say statistics or something that why would it be wrong to just yeah

04:40:01.900 statistics wouldn't back up white people being afraid of statistics wouldn't back up white people

04:40:05.820 being afraid of black people because majority of violence is intraracial so nine intraracial 90

04:40:11.180 of black people are killed this is often killed by other black people 85 of white people are killed by

04:40:15.740 other white people so why would that preclude a white person being fearful or scared of a racial minority

04:40:22.620 what do you mean because they've had like a singular instance or a bad instance isn't it the case that

04:40:26.540 like the comparative rate so if you look at like asian on black versus black on asian crime

04:40:31.180 there is a disparity there's disparity but it's still drastically low if you're talking about who

04:40:35.660 is an asian like overwhelmingly more likely to be um like hurt by it it is someone of their own race

04:40:41.420 because people live almost entirely around people who live like violence but like stranger danger like

04:40:46.380 on the street violence you who do you usually live around you're not usually just randomly going into

04:40:51.100 communities that you don't inhabit or like like white people live around and work primarily around

04:40:57.580 white people and so you're saying like if i go into a neighborhood where there's a high rate of black

04:41:02.300 on black crime that i should be more i shouldn't be worried about i think you should be worried but just

04:41:09.660 because it has a high rate of crime right like on a i mean i don't know i i think that i think a lot

04:41:14.300 of this stuff like i just i don't i'm not denying that like i understand where the sentiment that you're

04:41:19.180 expressing comes from brian like i i get that like it's like like look we should oppose generalizations

04:41:24.300 of any group on any basis because it's just you know it's wrong and i think there's a claim to wait

04:41:30.300 why is that wrong i mean you would say it's i wouldn't say making determinations but generalizations

04:41:36.940 generalizations saying all all blank or blank but like oh oh like oh oh like yeah except for you all

04:41:43.020 women should be in the home but well i guess uh yeah they could be okay i guess uh just one question i

04:41:48.780 uh on the bear thing then yeah um you would say if somebody picks the bear over man that would not

04:41:55.980 be like sexist and no you understand why a woman would pick i mean sure my question is let's say if

04:42:04.460 we kind of and would you say that comes down to safety i mean factually yeah right women pick bear

04:42:10.540 because they are afraid that the man might essay them and kill them or whatever it is whereas the bear

04:42:17.020 might just kill them or not but they're not going to like essay them right so it's like a safety

04:42:21.180 assessment it comes down to safety yeah but so if somebody for example if the question changes

04:42:26.220 and the question becomes would you rather come across a random black person or a random bear

04:42:31.660 in the woods and they pick bear over black person would you say they're a racist well it would depend

04:42:38.460 who are they afraid of in the woods who is committing it wouldn't matter if it was a black woman or a

04:42:43.020 black man they'd still pick the bear i think but no wait a second i think i think it's weird though

04:42:46.940 because like how's it weird wait because black women aren't committing like massive rates of

04:42:52.620 violence or crime i'm not going to deny majority of men aren't like it's a very small if we sure i

04:42:58.220 would agree that if we look at the overwhelming majority yeah right but you're saying black women

04:43:02.620 are uh immune to committing violent not immune they're much less likely i'll even rant it but this

04:43:08.940 person and i this person we would have to we would have to math it out we have to mass it out well

04:43:13.180 who cares if that well i mean wouldn't the math in the original example when it's a uh a woman

04:43:19.100 preferring the bear over the man i think the math even in that because you're only assume you're

04:43:22.780 only including killing you're only including being killed i would include essay you think a bear is

04:43:27.180 more likely to sex oh no that's no no that's not what i'm saying that's not what i'm saying at all

04:43:31.980 but here but that's what women are is it would it be racist to pick the bear over the black person

04:43:38.940 yes i will this is not a contradiction whatsoever at all if it is if wait a second wait a second

04:43:43.740 wait a second if it was would you rather pick a bear or like a black man yeah pick pick pick the

04:43:49.420 pick of the bear that's fine because it's the man that's doing the operative work there it's the man

04:43:53.740 that's doing like i don't like i don't i think black women largely should be more like afraid of like

04:44:01.020 in terms of the male thing black men and white women should be afraid of white men because that's the

04:44:04.860 people who are most likely to harm them but in this black scenario it's not just it's not

04:44:10.060 the the reality there's just no lived reality of like white people a majority of white people like

04:44:16.780 being victims of like terrible awful crimes at the hands of black people people or black women

04:44:23.260 i mean there's it would be largely it would be largely black men i mean there's that guy at the

04:44:26.540 track meet who just got stabbed okay i mean we don't know all the details of that and we talk about

04:44:30.540 that are we talking about that hold on but you said there there's the this group of people doesn't

04:44:34.780 have the lived experience of being victims of hold on there's systemic i'm perpetuated by black

04:44:39.980 people it's not but are you saying black people don't commit crimes i'm not saying they don't commit

04:44:43.420 crimes i'm saying that black people committing crimes against white people is not a pervasive issue

04:44:48.700 it's not it's not pervasive it just doesn't it's not a majority an overwhelming majority

04:44:53.820 you can look at the statistics and i already said it's it's over it's intraracial even then if you're

04:44:59.420 gonna say that if they pick the bear over the black person that must be racist then surely black man

04:45:04.460 no just not well the the the question that i posed was not black man it was just black person

04:45:10.460 so it could be a woman it could be a man now the is it is it racist but then for you to say well it

04:45:17.260 wouldn't be sexist to pick the bear over the man i just i'm not really following yeah it's like he's just

04:45:22.940 all he's doing is swapping out the choices and if it's if it's sexist in one instance but

04:45:29.260 it's not but it's or let's say it's racist but it's not sexist he's saying like why is it racist

04:45:34.140 it should you should be consistent i don't but i don't think there's an inconsistency here because

04:45:38.300 it's not like and i see this a lot like why can't white people fear black people if men of women can

04:45:43.900 fear men and i i don't think that there's a i don't think that i don't think the parallel holds

04:45:48.380 because the the demographic committing violence regardless of race is men so if you're afraid of

04:45:55.820 black men over white men it's you're not you're not more likely as a i don't if you want to if

04:46:02.860 let's say you oppose this as like a as like a would you as to like a black woman like would you rather

04:46:07.740 encounter a bear or like a black person in the woods i mean then maybe she'd be like yeah i want

04:46:11.500 the bear because it might be a black man and because men within a society are more likely regardless of race

04:46:17.740 to be but why can't why can't you make a subcategory okay we've established men but then why can't we

04:46:23.660 just make a subcategory to say like black men okay there's groups between a white man and a black man

04:46:29.340 who would you rather find be in the woods with if you're if you're a white man you would or if you're

04:46:34.300 a if you're a white woman it's more likely that you are to be it doesn't really matter it's just a

04:46:38.220 man it's just men in general are more likely to assault it's not it's not only like a racial demographic

04:46:45.260 thing it's just that then there's no basis for that like i don't there is a basis for women

04:46:50.300 fearing men that that makes sense but it's not like there's nothing about a black man that makes

04:46:55.340 like him more scary than a white man other than if you think black people are scary and i don't know

04:47:00.620 if this was what you were asking jim bob but what if the question shifts to this uh a white woman in

04:47:05.740 the woods and she's given an option of spawning in she either comes across a random white person or

04:47:12.140 excuse me a random white man versus a random black man and she picks the white man is that

04:47:18.540 racist no i don't you don't think it's racist i don't know i don't but i thought hold on but

04:47:22.940 didn't you just say that the rates of like interracial violence are it's like within your

04:47:28.540 same race it's higher right it's it's gonna happen if there's a man there no but you said like

04:47:33.740 because when i gave you the asian example you're like well okay the rates of asian on asian crime

04:47:37.500 sure are higher i feel like we've extracted this hypothetical so far that it just doesn't

04:47:43.180 track reality anymore like i just don't it's track i don't i don't think it is right and i

04:47:46.860 don't think it is at all well then we didn't even get into like per capita like the percent of crime

04:47:51.180 and convictions versus white and black if there's not an argument there's not i'm not saying that like

04:47:56.620 black people don't commit a disproportionate rate of crime that's not the claim i would make an

04:48:00.220 argument that that largely stems from socioeconomic factors and historical factors that have you know

04:48:05.260 impoverished a community for you know generations upon generations and leads to a gang culture

04:48:09.340 emerging that we've seen over and over and over again throughout history even among white individuals

04:48:13.340 when they came to this country so i don't know i just i don't well i'll just i guess i can only

04:48:18.300 reframe it one way so the woman who picks the bear over the man the reason she does this is she had

04:48:26.940 let's say two to three poor experiences with uh and all the women around her have similar

04:48:32.140 experiences too sure and and she's also consuming content on tick tock in the algorithm and she's

04:48:37.740 seeing news stories about the incidents of violence against uh women and she goes to university and

04:48:43.820 there's like a freshman orientation tutorial where they're like okay the grape rate is like half or

04:48:49.900 something or whatever whatever they perpetuate and then you have a white you have a white person who

04:48:55.900 they're asked the bear or black person question and they've had two or three negative uh encounters

04:49:03.980 with black people maybe one of them sure if it's a ptsd response fine like i don't you know i'd fine

04:49:08.940 that's fair i don't like i don't if that person in this in this hypothetical if they want to choose

04:49:13.580 if they want to choose to not be around a black person also in your little the little story you said um

04:49:19.420 you said there's this there's this narrative that needs to be corrected over and over again where it's like

04:49:23.900 there's this big story about poverty and then the poverty justifies crime it's actually the case

04:49:28.860 that crime causes more poverty than poverty causes crime well sure it's a cycle right no but i'm not

04:49:35.820 disagreeing with right but the narrative is always they it's always said in this way where it's like

04:49:41.180 oh they're in a they're in a terrible whoever it is they're in a terrible position they did what they

04:49:45.900 did it caused crime and then it's a cycle of poverty but it's there there are people who don't commit

04:49:50.940 crime who are in poverty there's also rich people who commit crime so i don't so i'm not sure what

04:49:56.380 the cycle is actually blamed on i think there's a cultural aspect when we look at uh crime or even

04:50:02.380 any degenerate behavior um itself that um there's even legal things that aren't crime that i consider

04:50:09.420 degenerate but um it's all plays into it i don't think that uh there's this like narrative where it's

04:50:16.380 like certain groups of people it's not their fault that they're behaving the way they're i'm not

04:50:21.180 trying to remove individual responsibility here i'm you know absolutely i don't like i think that

04:50:25.900 it is also true the majority of people who are subjected to bad conditions don't perpetuate those

04:50:30.300 bad conditions so that's just true however it is true that statistically they are more likely to

04:50:36.060 um in general so that's kind of the old the only claim claim that i'm trying to make but

04:50:40.860 i'm gonna let these chats come through then we're gonna wrap this up jason thank you for the

04:50:44.140 jason castle donated twenty dollars oliver it's called busting balls it's what men do so i know

04:50:51.900 you don't understand i'm not a man just trying to help you but don't worry i'm on the developmental

04:50:56.380 pathway to produce uh small gametes so i am a man wild donated twenty dollars jim bob cool it with

04:51:03.340 anti-gay lawyer remarks what the heck thank you intel all right we have uh about six more coming through

04:51:10.940 thank you thank you guys appreciate it christine donated twenty dollars i will say the quiet part

04:51:18.140 out loud bear versus man debate is a passive-aggressive way of us reminding men that we hate you

04:51:26.220 that's reminding wait oh wow okay all right priscilla donated twenty dollars

04:51:30.700 oh priscilla fruity boy clearly rat ordered you disgust me all of your followers disgusts me you are a

04:51:37.980 miss andreth luth coochie woman i hope you understand that thank you billy bob roast this

04:51:44.860 fucker jason castle donated twenty dollars thank you jason well oliver listening to you during this

04:51:52.540 debate will increase the u.n aliving rate of men tonight we to go bunnies i'm surprised you think

04:51:58.700 i'm that powerful that i can convince men to i'm surprised you think i'm that powerful that i

04:52:02.540 apparently the animal donated twenty dollars thank you the white knight is the one infantilizing

04:52:07.820 women do women hate children and the elderly as they unalive them incredible rates even as parenting

04:52:14.700 time has decreased rates have increased okay jason castle donated twenty dollars oliver you're a scumbag

04:52:24.300 brian meant any minority group but you tried to butt words in his mouth by asking if he means black

04:52:30.300 people he didn't say black people he meant any minority group scumbag wow okay selena gone is

04:52:38.700 donated 23.45 so should men not fear women when they say hate all men even though the legal system has

04:52:47.500 clearly been weaponized against men for at least 50 years i mean believe all women right yeah i feel

04:52:55.500 really oppressed eric vigilant donated 19 dollars and 99 cents thank you eric oliver never had the

04:53:01.500 markings of a varsity trumpeter this is a uh i guess the jeans didn't guess the jeans didn't uh pass

04:53:06.940 down from my dad sopranos reference thank you uh eric steven donated 19 dollars and 99 cents this bear in

04:53:15.820 the woods hypothetical is annoying and just shows how stupid americans have become we love to make

04:53:21.820 problems a bear is never the one to pick thank you steven uh who just quick answer do you you pick

04:53:27.980 man or bear for you you're in the woods random man random bear it's probably a man men are less you

04:53:38.140 know yeah i mean is it is it less or more wait never mind okay never mind if it's a black bear

04:53:47.260 bear versus a white bear no no no they do attack more matt statistics show black men commit way more

04:53:52.780 crimes again comparatively okay wait a second i do want to respond to that quickly i'm not denying that

04:53:57.180 if we look at the disparities that the black on white crime versus white on black there is a higher one in

04:54:03.820 the former i'm just saying still overwhelmingly statistically it's still intra-racial that was

04:54:09.980 my claim i was not denying that fact so got it all right cool guys uh well we're gonna wrap it up

04:54:15.580 there let me just double check make sure uh guys if you enjoyed the stream please like the video if

04:54:20.300 you're watching on twitch drop us a follow in a prime sub guys me and jim bob are gonna be live

04:54:26.220 tomorrow with a dating talk panel it's gonna be a good show so be sure to tune into that

04:54:30.540 like the video kindly on your way out guys i'm gonna do get a quick raid going here on

04:54:38.460 twitch why not and i do want to thank jim bob thank you for coming oliver thank you for coming it was

04:54:44.700 great to have you guys uh i thought it was a really good debate so thank you so much really

04:54:48.300 appreciate it guys you're welcome and uh let me just double check everything uh okay we're good

04:54:55.180 there all right thank you guys for watching oh sevens in the chat we will see you guys tomorrow

04:55:00.780 with a dating talk good night guys

04:55:14.700 so

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04:55:22.300 you

04:55:24.300 you

04:55:26.300 you

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1v1 DEBATE： Woke Male Feminist vs. Jimbob -- Feminism Debate ｜ Whatever Debates #14

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