Whatever Podcast - Abortion Debate

00:00:00.000 welcome to a special debate edition of the whatever podcast i'm your host and moderator

00:00:19.200 brian atlas i'm joined by my co-host kiki she's a bit shy guys a few quick announcements before

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00:01:06.780 speech uh so if any of you are uh really wanting to jump into the debate feel free please see the

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00:01:23.620 you can also gift memberships uh 50 50 gifted actually we're not going to do that one for this

00:01:28.500 show um you can now gift memberships to other viewers on ios without further ado i am joined today

00:01:35.040 by destiny famous internet personality live streamer and political commentator who will be arguing the pro

00:01:41.920 choice side and we have kristen hawkins she's the president of students for life of america a non-profit

00:01:49.360 pro-life organization and lila rose she's the founder and president of the pro-life organization live action

00:01:58.480 and we were going to have someone else on destiny's side but unfortunately they backed out kind of last

00:02:04.720 minute so destiny this is going to be a 2v1 i prefer to characterize my position as pro-abortion not pro-choice okay

00:02:12.240 very honest okay that's that's okay clarification thank you got it um so i think a good jumping off

00:02:18.400 point um if each of you would like to summarize beyond just being either pro-choice or pro-life

00:02:24.880 or in your case uh pro-abortion or anti-abortion uh what is your basic stance on abortion my basic stance

00:02:32.480 is we try to figure out what is a person what makes a person person is granted some positive some

00:02:38.320 negative rights by governments and probably morally and ethically separate from governments we also

00:02:42.640 grant people some type of right i don't believe that a person is a collection of cells i don't

00:02:46.800 believe that a person is just a body with a brain i think that very specifically when we speak about

00:02:51.040 a person we speak about something that has the capacity to deploy a conscious experience because

00:02:56.640 that tends to be the thing that we're usually talking about when we're figuring out if somebody's

00:02:59.600 alive or dead or whether or not somebody ought to be protected when we say

00:03:03.040 a person when we say who is suffering we don't say what is suffering we're not talking about a

00:03:06.640 body we're not talking about a heartbeat we're talking about a person having an experience so

00:03:10.720 when i try to think of abortion i try to think of who is being harmed i would say that before 20 to 24

00:03:17.280 weeks that's about when the scientists say that the brain has all the parts necessary to begin

00:03:21.520 communicating to have a conscious experience that about at that point there is some experience

00:03:26.000 there that we can speak of as a who or as a person but prior to that the first trimester that really

00:03:31.040 experience is not happening yet so if you want to have an abortion there is no who that's being

00:03:34.640 harmed there's just a what which is whatever the body is up to that point so generally i'm pro-choice

00:03:39.600 the first abortion up until that conscious experience has been formed because i think that's what's

00:03:42.800 worth protecting because that's when we look to see when somebody's dead so that's we should look

00:03:46.160 to see when somebody's alive so are you anti-abortion after 20 or 24 weeks yeah after 20 to 24 weeks and

00:03:51.680 all abortions anti-all abortions after 20 to 24 weeks with with the obvious exceptions of like

00:03:57.440 ectopic pregnancies or life of the mother or something like that being threatened yeah yeah

00:04:02.560 easy yeah of course okay okay and your positions so i'll i mean we share a position but kristen i'm

00:04:10.640 sure we'll have have her way she wants to describe it um i think that all humans have human rights

00:04:16.240 by nature of being a human you are a member of the human family and so any member of the human family and

00:04:21.440 this is actually the preamble of the declaration on universal human rights by the united nations so

00:04:27.040 for those that think they have any authority i don't know if you do destiny they say that all

00:04:31.440 members of the human family deserve to be protected and treated by the law as persons and so if you're

00:04:38.240 a member of the human family you have human rights and we know when you become a member of the human

00:04:42.240 family it's at the moment of fertilization it's very clear a single cell embryo comes into existence

00:04:46.720 and so i'm i believe human rights for all humans and i also want to build a society of love and

00:04:51.040 justice and the way to do that is to treat people equally under the law and to protect the most

00:04:56.720 vulnerable especially children children deserve more protection actually than adults because they

00:05:01.680 are defenseless and so we should actually go out of our way to do what we can to protect children and

00:05:06.240 never commit homicide against them so that's that's my pro-life position cool yeah i share a loudest

00:05:11.600 position i'm i'm against the strong being able to choose whether or not the weak or the vulnerable get to

00:05:18.560 live or die based on someone else's you know perception of them or their convenience factor

00:05:24.640 to another person i think that's a very slippery slope and i actually think the position you represented

00:05:31.280 is a very dangerous one because what you're saying is you have to be not only a member of our species

00:05:36.480 in order to be a person with rights the very basic right to life but you have to be a person plus

00:05:42.400 and it's a very exclusionary class of what you're doing you're excluding a whole group of human

00:05:47.600 beings so i guess my question is are there other human beings you would exclude that you you don't

00:05:53.920 view destiny as persons uh not for this debate no i'm just kidding uh here's a question actually

00:06:00.320 let me uh let me respond to your question with a question um you guys say that humans are protected

00:06:05.360 do you agree with that that humans ought to be protected well it's more specifically humans have human

00:06:09.440 rights so protection can mean different things but humans have human rights the fundamental human

00:06:13.440 right is the right to not be killed okay it's the right to be protected against the right to life and

00:06:18.640 so that's why i don't have the right to commit homicide against you destiny or against you kristen

00:06:23.520 or against you brian and certainly not against a pre-born developing child and yeah so but i have

00:06:28.800 a question for you too but i know we all have questions for each other but i'll let you sure yeah

00:06:31.680 because i'm gonna keep going on this i don't believe that you believe in that statement um that

00:06:35.600 humans have a right to life so my next question would be i show you a human who's been

00:06:39.280 dead for 10 days the corpse is still a human we agree right i think to clarify a right to life

00:06:45.680 meaning a right to not be killed not a right not to be killed it's fundamentally different abortion

00:06:50.400 and end of life care i've i watched one of your debates this morning when i was on the plane coming

00:06:54.800 here and i found it interesting because you kept using this end of life and argument you fundamentally

00:06:59.680 have a right not to be killed abortion is an active killing it's an active dismember it's actually a

00:07:05.200 violent ending for another human being so morally that act of abortion is is much different than

00:07:12.320 someone who maybe is brain dead or we're not sure their brain activity that's been in a hospital for

00:07:20.080 three months that's that's a much different position to take because you're not actively killing

00:07:26.400 that person you may say we have to withdraw life support for this reason or we you know the doctor may

00:07:32.320 say we have this reason to believe this person is brain dead but you're act you're not actively

00:07:38.400 killing you don't say well they're gonna die so i'm gonna take a gun and put it through the person's

00:07:43.120 head we wouldn't we would not say that we would say we might withdraw life support and see if the person

00:07:47.520 can sustain life on his or her own but we're not going to actively dismember them in the process or

00:07:53.600 violently kill them in the process but that's exactly what abortion is it's not just with easily

00:07:59.360 withdrawing life support it's actively going into a womb where there's a developing human being that

00:08:04.880 biologist tells us is unique whole living human being that's never existed before and will never

00:08:10.640 exist again and it's actively killing them okay i don't believe that you believe in that argument

00:08:17.680 if i were to show you that all abortions could be done by just extracting the baby and then leaving

00:08:21.520 it on the table and not actively killing it but just removing it from the mother's life support and

00:08:25.200 seeing what happens would you be okay with that that is actively killing that is killing because

00:08:28.640 the how is that actively killing anymore because children destiny you know this you're a parent

00:08:32.800 children are dependent on their parents a newborn is dependent on his or her parents right and a

00:08:37.840 pre-born child is dependent on his or her mother i'm just i understand i'm just challenging the words

00:08:41.520 we're using here okay that's fine but the dependency of a child doesn't give their parents or anyone else

00:08:48.000 the right to kill that child sure i never said as much i was challenging well you do say as much i think

00:08:52.960 because i think your position is if that dependent child before the arbitrary line of 20 to 24 weeks

00:08:58.480 is in any way unwanted and convenient just for whatever reason abortion is chosen for that child

00:09:03.680 then you are okay with a parent killing their child um depends on what video games the child plays no

00:09:09.840 the only thing i'm trying to figure out right now is i'm trying but are you okay with that because i

00:09:12.320 think that was what you said i don't know what so right now i'm just trying to figure out what your

00:09:14.880 position is so we're trying to figure out your position too so i already get my position with

00:09:19.840 crystal but it actually wasn't unclear it wasn't it wasn't actually clear destiny because

00:09:24.480 okay wait hold on wait just because i got cut off like seven times and i haven't responded so just to

00:09:28.880 be very clear uh to give you an idea of like what i'm trying to establish right now when i have

00:09:33.040 conversations with people that are pro-life there's a lot of dancing between words that i think deserve

00:09:37.680 distinct definitions human i think is distinctly different from person i think it's distinctly

00:09:42.480 different from life i think it's distinctly different from child but all of these things when we're

00:09:46.800 talking pro-life tend to just get thrown together like oh we should defend all human people and

00:09:50.240 children are worthy of life and a lot of these statements are almost begging the question

00:09:53.200 obviously anything that you would consider a child deserves rights to life right but that's what

00:09:57.280 pro-lifers believe human beings are persons yes what you're arguing is that some human beings don't

00:10:03.440 deserve persons right but what i'm trying to do out history destiny has always proved to be a very

00:10:09.360 dangerous position that you're taking yeah i understand the analogies of slavery we're trying to draw

00:10:13.760 here but um what i'm just trying to figure out is but can you respond to that because i think let's

00:10:17.280 just take it one step at a time because i i think fundamentally there's a difference between saying

00:10:21.120 a fetus hasn't developed the cognitive parts yet to recognize it as living versus saying black people

00:10:25.440 and white people are different types of things let's address consciousness for a minute because

00:10:28.800 my understanding is you're saying okay if you want hold on real quick if you want we can leave

00:10:31.680 the minds if you want i still have no idea what you guys believe but we can leave for mine if you

00:10:34.240 want well i'll just stay here i mean we can say it slower for you what i heard you say is that like

00:10:39.840 children should have rights and shouldn't be killed which i think we all agree human life

00:10:44.160 has the right to not be killed yeah and yeah but then you also try to when you said not be killed

00:10:48.960 you try to draw a distinction between like active and passively killing no no you you cannot uh she

00:10:54.000 did because she said there was a difference between pulling the plug on grandpa versus actively killing

00:10:57.920 the intentional destruction of an innocent human life is sure but i was saying that like unplugging grandpa

00:11:03.040 would be kind of like unplugging a baby you're disconnecting both from a life support thing no because

00:11:07.040 because a baby belongs a pre-born baby belongs before development he or she's right born belongs

00:11:12.720 in the in his or her mother's womb sure i understand but that means it's probably ways

00:11:16.400 it's a natural habitat sure this is fundamentally different there's probably ways to passively kill

00:11:20.000 children that we would agree is also wrong just because you're actively versus passively doing

00:11:23.360 something well i think intention matters too yeah sure it actually can be yeah i agree but that's

00:11:29.040 important to qualify we can't just say like passively killing somebody is fundamentally

00:11:32.400 different from actively killing somebody therefore one is described like moral way than the other

00:11:35.840 isn't because there's you start a child that's passive but that's also i think there's a few

00:11:39.200 other things you have to get into and what you mean by passive or active sure i agree that's

00:11:42.480 what i'm trying to get into but you can ask me questions if you want okay i do have a question

00:11:45.520 about consciousness because i my understanding is that's your big line that if there's suddenly

00:11:50.640 consciousness then they are a person they're not just a human but they're also a person and

00:11:55.040 i first to clarify you think it's okay for some humans to be the victims of homicide you

00:12:01.200 you think it's okay to commit homicide against a human just not a person i mean i would take issue

00:12:05.360 with homicide because that's a really loaded term but i would say that you can end the life of

00:12:09.520 human beings that no longer have the capacity to deploy consciousness so if i'm asleep and i'm

00:12:13.840 unconscious it's okay to kill me that's why i said capacity to deploy conscious i can wake you up when

00:12:17.840 you're sleeping like the fetus has capacity no a fetus that doesn't have the necessary brain parts

00:12:21.760 has no capacity for if you give that child time that child give the child time implies you said 20 24

00:12:27.920 weeks what about children hold on wait wait wait wait wait just what you said there give the

00:12:34.640 child time implies that it's give me time to wake up do you think that a seed and a tree are the same

00:12:39.040 thing you're you're you're making a wrong equivalency i'm not making a wrong equivalency

00:12:43.280 i'm saying that a seed given enough time a seed given enough time will grow into a tree

00:12:47.200 but when you use the word this thing will become this thing the implication there is your intuition

00:12:52.080 pumping all the rights that this thing has we're saying this will become incorrect incorrect

00:12:55.920 a child in the womb a human being has the capacity for consciousness they might not have developed

00:13:01.440 that that means they don't have the capacity for it guys guys just one microphone of the time please

00:13:05.840 just let everyone sorry they might not have developed the capacity yet similarly if someone

00:13:10.240 is in a coma or unconscious they're not actively they're that capacity is not activated yet but if

00:13:15.600 you don't interrupt the life of that child if you don't kill that child that child will absolutely

00:13:20.240 be conscious and just develop consciousness in just a few weeks and that's the difference between

00:13:24.240 the question you were asking me earlier when you try to trip me off about the i'm not trying to

00:13:28.720 you guys are the ones trying to trip me up i'm just keeping i'm trying to clarify you have you have

00:13:32.640 a very murky position because you said between 20 to 24 weeks i believe a child has rights which one

00:13:39.360 is it if you're the one making the laws i have a crystal clear position my position is the thing we

00:13:45.440 ought to defend is the conscious experience because that's the thing we look when does that conscious

00:13:49.920 experience begin about 20 to 24 weeks well that's a big time period because there's been children

00:13:54.080 who've been born at 21 weeks and five days so were those children when they were born prematurely so

00:13:59.680 i had an intern a few years ago who was one of the youngest children ever to survive okay um at that

00:14:06.000 age she was 21 weeks and six days old okay so she's right in between your 20 to 24 week time range okay

00:14:13.680 so when she and her twin sister were born do you believe that the hospital the nicu did something

00:14:20.560 wrong and giving out care and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in care to sustain her and

00:14:27.680 her sister's life why would i think something wrong was done there well because you don't think it's a

00:14:31.680 human with consciousness necessarily yeah i don't think a two-week-old is a human conscious but that

00:14:35.600 doesn't mean there's anything wrong with supporting it but you're saying it's okay to kill it so you're

00:14:38.720 saying my vagina is magical so something happened oh first of all as a child born by c-section i'm

00:14:44.000 very offended okay we're humans too that's the position you're taking hold on is it something

00:14:48.240 magical happens during birth the vagina magic guy is not in the room right now i didn't give any

00:14:53.440 qualification about birth being the magical time that made somebody a human i've never said that

00:14:57.600 ever so i have no idea what position you're attacking there um to back up very clearly your

00:15:01.760 position that's not clear because you said 20 to 24 weeks and i'm asking you a very direct question

00:15:07.920 about child born at your question was if a child is spiritually born at 16 weeks the mother and

00:15:13.840 the father of every right to try to find support for that child why would you not but but but why

00:15:18.080 what what makes that because it's going to grow into their kid why would they not care but you're

00:15:22.720 saying it's okay to kill the kid at 16 weeks sure and and i think that's the that's the difference

00:15:28.320 between the side of the table and that side of the table well obviously that's because i'm pro-choice

00:15:31.840 and you guys are you're pro-abortion yeah have you ever considered that you could be wrong on this

00:15:36.880 issue yeah of course have you absolutely hold on only one to be clear only one side of the table

00:15:41.920 here is tied to organizations that are getting money invested so i started my i understand but

00:15:47.280 you're never changing your position i'm still free to change mine so in terms of asking me if i can

00:15:50.560 say that i'm asking i can consider that i'm wrong you guys will never change your opinion on this

00:15:54.000 i've considered it i've had to consider a lot of sure um but what would it mean if you were wrong on

00:16:00.640 your position on abortion morally what was wrong so i don't know if you believe in god or heaven

00:16:07.280 or whatever i haven't aborted any kids yet but say you say you get hit by a bus and you go to heaven

00:16:12.720 and god's like destiny uh you've been completely wrong on abortion your entire life you've advocated

00:16:20.320 for abortions between 20 24 weeks no one can really tell because you want to give us a definitive time

00:16:25.120 hold on hold on you're like hold on wait i gotta do this real quick like what would that mean if

00:16:30.320 you were wrong on okay hold on hold on for you saying that just because i can't nail an exact

00:16:34.320 solid time when that's kind of a big deal it's not really that big it is a big deal it's a big

00:16:38.800 deal when you're making laws it's super not a big deal you could literally just say like hey before

00:16:43.840 20 weeks abortion is okay and then draw the cutoff right there if you want that's a question for

00:16:47.680 policy makers but but but why do policy makers why does anyone get to decide whether or not an

00:16:53.680 innocent person lives or dies because that's what policy makers do no they don't have the right to

00:16:58.560 kill an innocent person if any policy maker if you're making decisions about milk care and and

00:17:03.120 triage and and who gets medical treatment first or if you're making decisions about saving people

00:17:07.280 from okay wait wait wait okay okay just be clear i'm gonna start cutting people i know but i don't

00:17:13.840 have a chance to answer any question and you're like loading so many horribly like intuition pump

00:17:17.840 question bags in front of me that i don't have time to answer all of the horrible questions in front of

00:17:20.880 me okay i'm gonna keep talking we're gonna do one at a time i will answer a question but you can't keep

00:17:26.480 stacking like dumb questions in front of me and they're like oh see like you want to murder children

00:17:30.480 okay i don't know hold on so let me address the very first thing because you keep trying to draw

00:17:35.040 like there's some like thing here that you've caught me on the idea that i can't give you a

00:17:38.160 concrete time between 20 to 24 weeks okay i hate to be the guy that does this in a debate but there's

00:17:42.560 something called a continuum fallacy or a nirvana fallacy the idea that just because i can't point

00:17:46.400 exactly at when something begins that i have to say that all of it is the same or i can't point to

00:17:50.000 that thing existing at all i can't tell you when individual pieces of sand are stacked up and

00:17:54.160 eventually become a pile of sand i can't give you the exact numbers of sand that i can see for that to

00:17:58.240 be but there is a difference between an individual piece of sand and a pile of it's a false equivalency

00:18:01.680 destiny it is hold on it's it's hold on that's this is basic argument because the reality is you

00:18:07.680 are saying that these are persons and these aren't based on a specific characteristic that you've you

00:18:14.480 decided on you came up with it it's not human rights i didn't it's consciousness rights yes you

00:18:18.800 believe because that no no no to be clear you're not nobody here at this table you are a consciousness

00:18:23.120 right now why don't you defend you need to defend your position and you're not doing that you're you're

00:18:27.120 kind of yeah we do not blow a little bit to be honest why don't you give the same rights to

00:18:30.720 could die why don't you give the same rights to human corpses as you do to live because they're

00:18:33.920 dead they can't they're already what does that mean when you say they're dead so there are they're

00:18:37.680 already dead what does dead mean to you i mean body's no longer working in a coordinated fashion

00:18:42.400 anymore their heart isn't pumping blood their brain is not if i put a person if i put a person on a

00:18:48.240 table and i can keep them alive with machines indefinitely but they're never going to wake up is

00:18:51.920 that a human life there should be there there is a difference between withholding extraordinary

00:18:56.640 just to be clear i'm about to ask that same question after you whatever you're about to say

00:18:59.760 because you're not answering my question because you're because you're it's a bit of it's a bit of

00:19:03.360 obfuscation the direction you're going here because there's a difference between withholding extraordinary

00:19:08.240 medical care which would be like life support and withholding ordinary medical care so if i as a

00:19:14.960 parent or i as a doctor i have a patient in the hospital and let's say they are they're being monitored

00:19:20.720 because they're you know they have cancer aggressive cancer but they're not they're they may be going to

00:19:25.200 die but they're not dead yet and they're not on life support they're just being monitored and if

00:19:29.280 i withheld food from this cancer patient and refuse to feed bring food and this cancer patient can eat

00:19:34.960 and refuse to feed that cancer patient patient that would be homicide against that cancer patient i don't

00:19:40.320 have the right you agree with that right yeah do you well that's a good do you agree that that that

00:19:43.520 that would be homicide would it be wrong to deprive i'll say it's wrong for sure who's going to die

00:19:48.160 well legally it would be murder to to not whether i'm not gonna make a legal argument but i would agree that

00:19:52.640 would be wrong yes of course so that's the difference between extraordinary medical measures

00:19:56.400 and ordinary measures okay and for a child and for a child in the womb they deserve the ordinary

00:20:02.960 measure of being able to stay in their natural habitat their mother's womb until they're old

00:20:07.440 enough to survive outside the room similarly a newborn who you're feeding formula or you're breastfeeding

00:20:11.680 has a right to that food from their mother or caretaker until they're old enough to and even

00:20:16.640 when they're old enough to physically feed themselves they still have a right to be given a plate full

00:20:20.160 of food at the dinner table you can actually go to jail for child neglect by failing to feed your

00:20:24.880 child so you know building these um these these analogies that actually don't work with what we're

00:20:30.320 actually talking about by saying well removing life support is like abortion they're not the same

00:20:34.480 because children have a right to care and children have a right to food and children have a right to

00:20:39.040 nourishment i still just like a right you need to clarify your position because you said 20 to 24 weeks

00:20:44.560 which i gave you a very very real life scenario of a child who's born a twin who is born at 21 weeks

00:20:52.880 and six days which in your view could have been aborted because you don't think she would have had the

00:20:59.360 consciousness that you deem worthy of personhood true but i mean what biologist do you know that

00:21:06.640 tells you that consciousness is at 20 24 weeks a great question because i researched this before i was

00:21:13.360 on the internet i was looking at pubmed at nih's website there aren't biological conclusions and

00:21:20.080 the fact they actually support the pro-life side because you look at the pro-life biologists don't

00:21:25.200 make an argument about well no well they do make arguments about when when human life when twins

00:21:31.040 interact so there's a there's a very well-known study showing that twins interact in the womb as

00:21:35.440 early as 14 amoeba interact with each other and pain children can experience pain at 12 and a half

00:21:41.040 germs react to external stimuli so are you saying are you saying germs are the same as human lives

00:21:45.120 i'm well i haven't even got okay so let me make a couple things so firstly you said i made a false

00:21:48.960 analogy earlier you've compared abortion to cancer patients getting withheld no i wasn't comparing

00:21:53.360 abortion to cancer patients okay you're i was talking about the difference between ordinary measures i'm

00:21:58.160 not talking about ordinary measures when it comes to medical natural progression versus natural

00:22:02.960 that isn't entirely that's great that's entirely great if i can just if i could just jump in

00:22:07.040 really quick no i don't need you if i could just jump in no no listen listen listen oh wait wait

00:22:10.480 let me let me just say if if we can allow maybe the uh turn the heat down a little bit on the

00:22:15.280 conversation or at least slow it down a little bit we're making people uncomfortable well i do want

00:22:19.520 to give it does seem to be that destiny hasn't had as much opportunity okay i'm good i'm ready

00:22:25.120 we need another guest there no we absolutely don't let me go okay you're making bad analogies by

00:22:29.920 comparing any of this to ordinary or extraordinary medical care is a fundamentally separate question okay

00:22:33.520 that's a separate question uh provisioning resources whatever you don't agree because

00:22:37.120 you brought it up as a contrary to the question that i said i would originally ask you this

00:22:40.720 question again and i'm going to ask you the question again because nothing that you said

00:22:43.360 addressed it and my question was and i'm going to repeat it a person that is in a coma that will

00:22:47.360 never wake up should that person be indefinitely kept alive on life machines it depends on on what are

00:22:52.800 the what are the what are the characteristics of them in that characteristic is that the person's body

00:22:57.200 characteristic is the person's in a coma they're never going to wake up but their body

00:23:01.200 how do you know they're not how do you know they're never going to wake up because the

00:23:04.320 the scientist has a magic machine that he pushes a button and the machine says this person is

00:23:08.800 never going to wake up with a magical scenario that you are designing without providing any

00:23:12.400 context just to be clear are you telling me that a person being in a coma is not going to wake up

00:23:15.600 as a magical scenario no i'm telling you that okay so we agree that people are in a coma and oftentimes

00:23:20.640 guys guys guys please one one microphone at a time please please because the refusal to engage

00:23:26.000 with the question demonstrates the weakness of your position you can keep doing this to be

00:23:29.120 clear i'm going to ask the same question again i still like to get my question wait guys please

00:23:32.800 just no listening to what i'm saying i am listening but you're not you're refusing to engage your

00:23:36.720 life because you know that you don't have a rock solid definition of what type of life should be

00:23:40.320 defended because the reason why you guys guys hold on hold on you're making a lot of assumptions

00:23:45.120 order in the podcast studio um i i am noticing perhaps on i i don't know who which side is doing

00:23:51.280 doing it most but let's let's try to avoid interrupting let's allow people to speak finish their

00:23:56.000 thought and then if if we can if we can um so destiny do you want to make a round table one

00:24:00.800 question we need to answer okay to be clear i'm willing to and i have responded to when you asked

00:24:04.560 me about feeding cancer patients what i said killing i said yes you said when you withhold

00:24:07.440 food for childs etc i'll answer any question you give me i have no problem answer the question have

00:24:11.280 you ever considered that you may be wrong on this issue and if you are wrong on this issue

00:24:16.800 what does it mean you are spending your time advocating there's there's literally there's problems on

00:24:21.920 both sides first of all that's not the greatest question to ask um you're getting into very weird

00:24:25.680 like pascal i'm gonna finish answering the question okay so so just one answer the question i am

00:24:30.400 answering the question okay you're well after you insulted me what do you mean how i assaulted you

00:24:35.200 insulted me wait how did i insult you my question so it's not the greatest question i said it's not

00:24:40.320 a good question to ask because theoretically you run into a bunch of readers saying well what if i'm

00:24:43.680 wrong on this question what if you're wrong by saying that black people and white people do deserve the

00:24:47.360 the same well let's let let's let destiny answer the question yeah so i mean there's like so i'm

00:24:50.880 not going to always think of like well what if i'm wrong i mean i do consider both ends of things

00:24:53.920 but the the the consequences for being wrong on both ends are pretty disastrous on one end you're

00:24:59.200 advocating for i guess arguably the genocide of like of little babies and on the other end sure and

00:25:04.720 on the other end you're advocating forcing women to give birth to children that they might not

00:25:08.000 want especially in cases of say sexual assault or in cases where they feel like they can't support

00:25:12.480 for the child what do you think is what do you think would be worse genocide so we had 60 some

00:25:17.600 million abortions in america since roe versus wade 60 million more than a thousand children are

00:25:24.160 killed every day at planned parenthood you can't you think you think children like you're morally

00:25:27.840 loading your children yes okay when you saw an ultrasound of your son in the womb did you say

00:25:33.840 wow look at that fetus sucking its thumb or did you say wow look at my boy he smiled at me

00:25:39.520 yeah i also get warm feelings when i look at my car like this isn't proving an argument by saying

00:25:44.560 cars are the same as human i'm not saying cars i'm saying that judging the validity or the veracity

00:25:48.480 of your argument by the emotional responsibility has to an ultrasound i also felt a certain type

00:25:51.680 of way when my ex-girlfriend showed me that she was pregnant but that doesn't mean that the urine

00:25:54.880 on the strip is anything special either right what you your emotions can match just to be clear

00:25:59.120 i still haven't gotten an answer to my coma question which is like fundamentally like an

00:26:02.240 important question what was your question so do you consider you're wrong and you said i have

00:26:07.440 considered i'm wrong but the problem is on one end it would be genocide on one end it would be

00:26:11.520 genocide and on the other extreme if i were wrong i would have forced women to carry unwanted children

00:26:17.680 or in your word fetuses or things correct what do you think would be worse well in order to answer

00:26:23.840 the side of hundreds of millions of children babies yeah worldwide do you think that would be a little

00:26:29.440 worse the thing is inconvenient seeing a woman for nine months if i were wrong in order to accurately

00:26:35.600 answer the question you have to assess the risk of being wrong on both ends for instance if i were

00:26:40.160 to say what would be worse if i've got to choose between 50 people here or 100 people here to

00:26:45.040 protect from some death event you know what should i choose the 50 people to the 100 people well it

00:26:49.840 doesn't make sense unless i have a death event as in let's say that there's going to be something

00:26:53.840 that has a chance of coming in and killing both people but i can protect one group of people do i want

00:26:57.760 to protect the 50 or the 100 that's not i need to finish the analogy hold on if you can't

00:27:02.000 understand any hypothetical we can't get anywhere in this conversation hypotheticals don't match what

00:27:04.880 we're discussing the hypothetical perfectly maps on what i'm saying is i wouldn't just say that i

00:27:08.400 would protect 100 people because 100 is greater than 50. what i would say is what is the probability

00:27:11.760 of 100 people dying versus what is the probability of the 50 people dying and then from there you would

00:27:15.120 start to wait the decision so hundreds of millions of women haven't died so when you ask me so when you

00:27:19.760 ask me so when you ask me what's the probability or what is the likelihood of being wrong or what's

00:27:25.200 what would be worse being wrong here or being wrong here what i have to think of is what is the

00:27:28.320 probability of being wrong on both ends it's not just a one-to-one because i'm not going to sit

00:27:32.000 here and pretend that everything is a one-to-one like there's an equal chance of being right or

00:27:34.640 wrong here i feel very strongly about my my position about being pro-choice so i'm not waiting this is

00:27:39.680 a 50 chance of being right here and a 50 chance of being right here so the question doesn't make

00:27:43.360 sense i'm saying it's a meaningless how do you feel very strongly about being pro-choice when you can't

00:27:46.960 even tell us at what point you think a child has this extra special consciousness that deserves right

00:27:55.760 the right to life in the womb how why would that prohibit me you don't know when consciousness

00:28:01.200 exists when it actually comes you don't even say when the baby i've given you the range of when

00:28:05.440 people different people develop at different rates it's about 20 so you're so you want to create so you

00:28:10.400 believe that we should have a sliding scale of what it means to be a human person we already have

00:28:15.440 that sliding scale we do it at death that's why when we go back to the i'm going to ask again no no i'm

00:28:20.240 not answering the question do you think it's okay to kill someone when they're unconscious i'm gonna

00:28:23.840 no because i said capacity to deploy what do you mean by capacity as in all of the parts in your

00:28:28.400 brain are functioning and working and can deploy a conscious experience an embryo who is developing

00:28:32.880 their brain will absolutely have the will will implies it doesn't why are you being age discriminatory

00:28:38.320 against that because when you say really developed a talk no hold on wait you can't just ramble and ask

00:28:42.400 a question you ask me a question if you're gonna ask me i'm just gonna keep talking okay when you ask me

00:28:45.760 will a thing have a right i will agree with you that it will the pieces for a building are not the same

00:28:51.680 thing as a building itself a seed is not the same thing as a tree an embryo is not the same thing

00:28:56.400 as a person so when you say hold on don't stop saying that every single okay hold on to be clear

00:29:01.200 for the audience when you're having a conversation with somebody yeah if you're having a conversation

00:29:04.320 with me and they're willing they're not willing to engage with a single hypothetical or they claim

00:29:07.200 every hypothetical doesn't map on unless you can clearly explain why it's because you know that

00:29:10.160 the hypothetical is testing the limits of your belief in a way that demonstrates the absurdity of

00:29:13.840 what you're saying and you're not first of all whether or not pro or anti life exists has

00:29:18.000 nothing to do with science it's not a scientific question it's a question of moral philosophy

00:29:21.200 okay number one so number two going all the way back to this original question that i don't think

00:29:25.840 you're going to answer me because i think that this does demonstrate the the faultiness of your

00:29:29.200 position is you didn't answer no you said that's an absurd proposition to imagine a person to be in

00:29:34.080 a coma i said you needed to provide more information was a medically induced coma how long was the coma

00:29:38.560 these these questions matter and they're absolutely sure i can ask a very simple question

00:29:43.680 a person is in a bed person is in a bed this person is unconscious

00:29:47.840 in a coma the doctor has a machine and he pushes the button the machine says this person will

00:29:51.760 never wake up again but the rest of their body works like that that exists that's why it's called

00:29:55.200 a hypothetical that doesn't exist in the real world that's it you're inventing a false hypothetical

00:30:01.440 that doesn't exist in the real world that is so it's in human life dying yeah so so and you're

00:30:06.800 using it to justify ending the life of an embryo you can't adjust this or a human being if you're

00:30:13.360 incapable of dealing with a hypothetical and the conversation is like we can deal with

00:30:17.120 you can't you can't a hypothetical by definition is something that is not happening that's why

00:30:20.880 it's called a hypothetical destiny so wait wait let me ask you since you love hypotheticals let me

00:30:26.240 ask you i love hypotheticals yes that's great scientists are working on artificial wombs okay

00:30:32.000 all right i would you agree with me that if they develop this artificial womb that can stay in human

00:30:38.240 life that there would be no legal reason there should be no legal justification for abortion because

00:30:44.160 if you could remove a child from a woman's womb who says say doesn't want to have a child didn't

00:30:49.280 want to get pregnant and place that child in an artificial womb where the child will safely grow

00:30:54.320 and develop until he or she's ready to be born would you agree with me then in that hypothetical

00:30:59.120 situation that there's no justification for abortion no why not you're not even we've there's 10

00:31:05.120 unanswered questions i just solved you are making you are making my hypothetical you are making a dialogue

00:31:10.400 tree argument against an argument for viability i have never made that argument in my life i've

00:31:14.560 never argued that viability is what determines if a child gets to live or die that's an absurd

00:31:18.400 position i would never have that so you're if you're saying saying you were making a viability

00:31:21.680 argument what wait wait no no no no wait because you don't even understand the arguments you're

00:31:24.800 making now hold on you are making an argument for viability when you're saying if i could show

00:31:28.320 you an artificial womb should we not say i know i love yelling at women okay could you not say i can

00:31:33.520 tell could you not say thank you could you not say that like well if i can show you that i can

00:31:36.960 transplant this fetus from this womb at one week to an artificial womb doesn't that give it the

00:31:41.440 right to life the implication there being the viability of a fetus to survive outside of an

00:31:45.520 natural i thought we could find common ground on that yeah the common ground i would say that has

00:31:49.440 no no there is no common ground there i would say 20 to 24 weeks so your entire position is based

00:31:54.880 on the develop is based on age it's basically the development it's not based on age it's based on

00:32:00.000 development of the development is age destiny it could develop early or later i guess right

00:32:04.960 a development is age age is a marker of development it can be sure so so your whole

00:32:09.840 argument is that if the development hasn't happened yet then therefore they're not a human life worthy

00:32:15.520 of protection and a person yeah a person okay so are you saying that toddlers because they're less

00:32:21.040 developed than an adolescent should have fewer should should not have the same rights as an adolescent

00:32:28.000 yes you agree with the same thing hold on to be clear different human okay now you're developing

00:32:35.200 more but the funny thing is you said in your opening statement you literally said they have

00:32:39.280 the same human rights protect they don't have the same rights a child can't sign a contract a child

00:32:43.680 can't buy a house a two-year-old can't go to high school do they have the same human rights

00:32:48.800 no a toddler and they don't have the same human rights don't have the same what do you know do

00:32:53.520 you what do you believe i would argue that i have like the human right to live in a house in the

00:32:57.120 way that i want to a three-year-old does not have the human right to live okay hold on do you not

00:33:01.040 agree there are fundamental human rights maybe that's there might be some if you're gonna if

00:33:04.640 you want to get very fundamental in terms of like do you have a right to not be killed yeah yeah i think

00:33:09.280 hold on very important sure you can say that but earlier you stumbled onto something very funny that

00:33:14.000 we all agree on is that based on the level of development you actually do grant different rights to

00:33:17.680 people that is absolutely so you're saying if you're not developed enough you have the right to be you

00:33:21.600 actually instead of being more protected as a child you should be less protected as a child

00:33:25.600 and you have less rights as a child to not be killed to not a child is generally defined as a human

00:33:30.160 person so you're begging the question you ask i believe all children should have rights i just

00:33:33.840 don't agree that a three-week-old are you still believing in the magical vagina or more than i believe

00:33:38.560 in the magical zygote that becomes a magical human when it's two cells big yeah of course

00:33:43.120 intern i i mentioned the 21 week six-day intern what about it so when she was born she and her twin

00:33:49.120 sister are born now that's in your 20 24 weeks who knows what destiny really believes about

00:33:53.440 abortion at that point i told you between 20 24 weeks yeah you got to be kind of specific when

00:33:57.680 you're talking about killing people but wait wait wait i need to know answer my question destiny

00:34:03.920 remember i'm gonna ask you this again i'm coming back to the coma all day long you still haven't answered

00:34:08.960 the coma question answer it's a it's a false but what is but what is the answer so the answer is if

00:34:15.040 you want to take care of a baby excuse me excuse me you're excused go ahead at 21 weeks in six days

00:34:20.800 a child is born uh-huh and a child is surviving a thing yeah okay is it a thing or is it something yeah

00:34:27.280 it must be something do i have the right after the moments that child comes out to kill it actually

00:34:32.320 well that's what i'm trying to find out moments after that child exits my body be a c-section or

00:34:37.200 vaginal birth okay does that child have the right to not be killed because that child is in that 20

00:34:43.440 24 weeks and we don't know according to your science we don't know what type of consciousness

00:34:49.440 rights consciousness this child has so is there anything wrong with saying well you survived we're

00:34:55.840 not going to treat you we're going to actually actively dismember you or inject a poison to your

00:35:00.960 heart if you're approaching my position in good faith if i'm saying that consciousness develops

00:35:05.360 around 20 to 24 weeks but how do you know probably drop because that's when scientists

00:35:09.680 seem to think that oh i'm sorry i'm so sorry i was interrupting your question with my answer

00:35:14.080 how do you know the child that 21 weeks in six days has consciousness how do you know what's what's

00:35:20.720 changed i you don't know so that's what i'm saying if no no that's what i was saying i was going to

00:35:24.640 answer but you cut me off you cut my answer so i want to know is it okay you don't want to know

00:35:28.640 you're just trying to run me down to dialogue after the child okay to kill a child probably not

00:35:32.880 is it okay probably never okay to kill a child right so my answer was that if the cutoff is seems

00:35:38.800 to be somewhere around 20 to 24 weeks if you're drawing policy or legislation because we can't

00:35:42.960 determine exactly when they're conscious you'd probably be safe and say something like only

00:35:46.880 first trimester abortion would probably be like a thing or like before like the 20-week mark would

00:35:52.080 probably be about where you go to that'd be my guess okay but so the child who's born at 21 weeks

00:35:57.040 in six days or the fetus or whatever that would be past the policy cause you'd probably say at that

00:36:01.520 point it should probably be destiny's hypothetical world this is destiny's hypothetical world if

00:36:06.320 you're there at the delivery room uh-huh are you saying that that child can be killed because

00:36:11.280 we don't know what that child's conscious in destiny's hypothetical world if we've drawn the

00:36:16.000 line at 20 weeks if the child is born at 21 weeks we probably say okay well now that is so now you've

00:36:20.480 changed your position in this debate you went from 20 to 24 weeks and now you're down to 20 right

00:36:26.480 do you understand the difference between a policy position versus like an epistemic statement

00:36:30.240 like a moral statement yes i'm not i'm not a moron thank you okay i love how you word these

00:36:34.240 questions i don't know why do you understand there's a difference between the color blue

00:36:38.880 and the color purple okay i'm not really sure i don't know i've never talked to a misogynistic

00:36:44.000 man like this before okay all right i still want to know if you think that you don't want to know

00:36:49.040 anything i didn't answer your question something magical happens at birth yeah i said in the very

00:36:53.600 beginning of this that the cutoff would be 20 to 24 weeks now you're down to 20 so we've actually

00:36:58.080 we're winning he's down to 20 now wait just just a question um yeah she she's just accused you of

00:37:04.960 being misogynistic i mean do you have a response to that i am i don't think he has one well no be

00:37:09.600 i mean come on being honest you're not you're not a misogynist destiny i hate women the more time i

00:37:15.680 spend around them the more contemptuous i feel about them well i mean you're trolling but i've watched

00:37:20.160 so many just pearly things videos i just can't even go back to the consciousness stuff with sure

00:37:24.160 well can i even have apparently my position doesn't even exist right now so let me restate

00:37:28.080 for your position's good now we know where you're at least at you're at 20 weeks we've got you moved

00:37:33.280 from 24 20 20 weeks right so the question of policy is separate from the factual question of when

00:37:38.320 does a conscious experience happen right what i stated initially was it seems like there's a

00:37:42.240 conscious experience that starts at around 20 to 24 weeks can you name the biologist google it i

00:37:48.640 that's what i told you i actually researched this for several hours today on nih's pubmed

00:37:53.360 website and i actually found a lot of pro-choice scientists who are saying children can feel pain

00:37:58.480 at 12 and a half feeling or they don't know consciousness siblings can interact with each

00:38:02.640 other at 14 weeks so just using that data from the nih's own website would tell you that now your 20

00:38:10.400 week limit on abortions which is wrong and probably should be moved okay so i googled this and the first

00:38:16.400 thing that came up from scientific american.com i'm not sure what research said is consciousness

00:38:20.560 requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components nerve cells its

00:38:24.160 physical substrate the thalamocortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate

00:38:28.240 content begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation now that's i googled that

00:38:33.840 was a first in camp so it's crazy to me that you read all these things but however however i will

00:38:37.600 finish um 24th to 28th i've also seen stuff that says 20th to 24th week so because i don't want to

00:38:43.600 murder baby to be safe to be safe to be safe i would probably say um i would go with the earlier

00:38:49.600 number because i generally don't want to kill children most of the time um so i would say that

00:38:53.040 the policy position should probably say that on the 20th week that should probably be the cutoff

00:38:57.200 where we start treating it as a child and then you give it all the same protections and rights that

00:39:00.160 you would a third trimester pregnancy or a born child so that's about what i said no position has

00:39:04.160 changed i haven't moved at all i at the very beginning of this debate i said 20 to 24 weeks is about

00:39:08.960 i haven't even clarified that was the policy position probably to stop at 20 weeks i have a question

00:39:12.640 for destiny do you believe in human rights um that's a what do you mean by that do you believe

00:39:17.760 in universal fundamental human rights that all human beings like like object that yes i do believe

00:39:21.920 there are some universal rights people should have do they objectively does that include the right to

00:39:24.560 life does that include the right to not be killed um generally speaking i would say so yeah

00:39:28.480 generally speaking or yes this it's that's a very difficult question if two countries are at war

00:39:33.760 with each other does somebody have a right to kill an enemy combatant you can't answer this question

00:39:37.200 does somebody have a right to kill an enemy combatant in a war yeah so you know i'm asking okay

00:39:40.720 yeah that's what i'm saying there's something called there can be something called just war

00:39:43.120 theory there's different theories for what makes a war just or unjust okay and yes you can be tried

00:39:48.160 for war crimes that's for unjustly killing civilians okay i'm just trying to make because they have a

00:39:53.200 right to life as a human being i'm just trying to make you understand that when you ask me a question

00:39:56.400 of like does everybody have a fundamental right to life depending on what you're asking that could be

00:39:59.600 a very very i'll say it again and let me know if this is clear do you as a human being

00:40:03.840 mm-hmm have a right to not be killed i would say generally speaking without due process how

00:40:09.920 about we'll add generally speaking if we have any sort of construction of government my imagination

00:40:14.080 would be that a fundamental right would be a right to life to not be killed yes i would agree

00:40:17.440 with that and in the united states under the u.s constitution the 14th amendment says that we

00:40:22.000 have a right to equal protection under the law and no state has a right to deprive the life of

00:40:27.360 anyone without due process you've probably heard this before okay so do you think that there is

00:40:34.160 any due process for the human life it right now is that where is the due process for the human life

00:40:40.800 before your consciousness well i would say that that person isn't protected by the constitution

00:40:45.440 because not a person yet okay and you're defining personhood based on somebody that's 20 to 20

00:40:49.440 ability of having a conscious experience yes so so let's talk about that for a minute if i'm

00:40:53.520 under anesthetic and i'm unconscious and someone comes up to me and says can i kill you and i'm

00:41:00.000 unconscious i can't say don't kill me can they kill me no tell me why because you have the capacity to

00:41:06.640 deploy a conscious just like the fetus just no the fetus can't the feet destiny if you don't kill that

00:41:11.840 fetus the fetus with a matter of time because i'm under anesthetic in a matter of time i will come

00:41:16.800 out from under anesthetic and i will have my consciousness for the fetus if you don't kill that fetus

00:41:22.640 under a matter of time the natural human development you were once a tiny child in the womb maybe 18

00:41:27.840 weeks before the consciousness that you say some biologists claim for and if no one killed you

00:41:32.960 then you would have your consciousness just like i coming out of an aesthetic anesthetic would have

00:41:37.520 my consciousness so why is it why so so your position sounds like age discrimination because

00:41:44.640 you're saying that because the child is not doesn't have their consciousness yet just like under

00:41:49.840 anesthetic i don't have my consciousness regained do you think there are any two-year-old human do

00:41:52.880 you think there are any 200 year old do you think that they're okay to kill them do you think there

00:41:55.600 are any 200 year old humans that deserve like to be protected by all the human rights that we have

00:41:59.680 fundamentally well if i think if someone lived to be 200 then yeah what about right now are you

00:42:04.720 ages actually alive what do you mean am i ages if there was a 200 year old i'd say yes if they're alive

00:42:09.280 that would be amazing okay and if there was a one-week-old having a conscious experience i would say it as

00:42:12.720 well but if the 100 the 200 year old is asleep and unconscious i still don't have the right to kill them destiny

00:42:17.680 because if they're asleep they can wake up your line of consciousness you're you're

00:42:21.040 your reasoning about consciousness is not logical you just stated your the fundamental flaw of your

00:42:26.880 entire position because you keep saying i understand if they wake up i'm just gonna talk now okay the

00:42:31.040 way that this conversation works is because you two have organizations because you two are bought

00:42:34.080 in you can never even remotely consider that i have to because i haven't gotten the ability to

00:42:37.840 you're a misogynist come on it's not misogynist okay um now i'm in my uh demon racial

00:42:42.800 energy because you're both white people now i'm like hitting you because you're white okay

00:42:46.560 but you can't just throw that zinger in there like oh you're only i have to because the style

00:42:50.400 of argumentation that you're both engaging in is like a gish gala of 50 million questions nothing

00:42:54.560 is scientific about this conversation it's 50 million questions about me being able to respond

00:42:57.360 to or answer anything well let's have a scientific what is not scientific about the argument i've got

00:43:01.920 a question this is a question of got a question i got a question got a question here uh none of my

00:43:06.800 questions have been answered yet yeah go ahead uh so you can go back to your hypothetical but

00:43:10.400 when just after what yeah yeah so lila i have a question for you i got i got a question for you

00:43:16.160 lila yeah uh for everybody here at the table wow it's very it's very heated okay um when does life

00:43:22.800 begin at the moment of conception when the moment of fertilization and egg unite when unique whole

00:43:28.480 living human being that never existed before and will never exist again comes into existence with

00:43:34.240 unique genetic code and 96 percent human excuse me hold on no 96 percent of biologists in university

00:43:41.520 of chicago study can majority of whom were pro-choice and liberal confirm that fact that there is no

00:43:49.280 other point at your development can you say you became you then at the moment of conception when your dna

00:43:57.360 your genetic code came into existence that is a biological fact and i'm sorry it's inconvenient

00:44:04.720 to raise that but that is that is the fact and to clarify i would agree with you destiny if human

00:44:10.800 life began at consciousness i would say you know anything before that human life beginning at

00:44:16.560 consciousness i would say it doesn't matter it's not a human life yet but it what's inconvenient for

00:44:20.240 you is that human life doesn't begin at consciousness human life and humans none of this is

00:44:24.400 inconvenient for me i'm not a woman at the end of the day i'm not gonna have a kid so it's not

00:44:28.080 inconvenient for me at all wait so i test me when i didn't get birth to him but he's your

00:44:33.200 i'm just saying you're saying it's inconvenient to me where it's like i'm not it's not it's not

00:44:36.160 an inconvenience to me to recognize representing the pro-abortion position here and surely you don't

00:44:40.320 believe that consciousness is the line that sure but i'm just saying that you keep saying like it's

00:44:44.000 inconvenient none of these facts are inconvenient i'm totally well they are because they they

00:44:47.680 dispute your like made up definition of when personhood begins there is no the definition of

00:44:53.600 when person who begins is literally the subject of our debate there's not a scientific answer to

00:44:57.200 that question what what i said at the very beginning is when you human rights are not

00:45:02.160 science if you separate when human beings come into is that mechanical engineering when do you

00:45:07.840 if you separate when human beings come into existence okay and personhood and you make it

00:45:12.000 two different lines it's always bad bad things have always happened throughout human history

00:45:17.760 when we try to separate human beings from personhood it's always a slippery slope and bad things always

00:45:24.960 happen is what we're saying so the reason one more comment the reason the reason human the reason

00:45:30.400 science is very important for the debate is because and and the question of human rights is because

00:45:36.240 human rights are about the humans that have rights that are universal so all of all humans if you're a

00:45:41.760 member of the human family you have these rights and i think earlier you did you know kind of keep

00:45:46.080 saying that but we don't no no no you have more qualifiers oh i'm so sorry you did kind of it's

00:45:51.200 all right you did kind of agree i think you agreed that we have the right as humans to not be killed

00:45:56.000 right no but there has to be more qualifications there needs to be more qualifications it's not just

00:46:01.520 humans because we agree that corpses for instance don't get protection so i think i think destiny i think

00:46:06.960 your position is not human rights it's uh conscious rights that you have to be a conscious you have

00:46:14.080 to have consciousness and not just have consciousness you can have it taken away from

00:46:18.720 you and it come back to it but that is okay but if the child hasn't developed yet then that's okay

00:46:22.720 that's your your line and destiny do you want to answer the question just when does life begin

00:46:28.720 when does life begin or when does human life begin destiny whatever your sense of the question

00:46:33.440 the personhood thing that i'm looking at no let's talk about science for a second when does human life

00:46:36.880 begin i answer the question you answer it if you're talking about like when does a unique genetic code

00:46:41.680 happen it's right at the union it's right at the moment of conception when two parts become a whole

00:46:45.920 correct excellent finally we agree on something that well that's a human life that comes into

00:46:51.440 existence yeah that's called a scientific fact that's what we've been saying i understand let

00:46:55.600 me catch you there are a lot of people who don't agree with that let me catch up the conversation

00:46:59.120 we're not having a scientific discussion on when genomes are formed we're having a moral philosophy

00:47:03.600 discussion on when does something get the protections of being a person correct and our position is

00:47:07.760 simple and what kristen was saying earlier is that throughout human history there have been many

00:47:11.120 times when groups of humans excuse me when groups of humans were considered non-persons right and

00:47:16.880 you're you're certainly you're certainly familiar with this destiny and i know kristen i'm gonna go

00:47:21.440 back to this for example under the rwandan genocide or with slavery in our country um the holocaust

00:47:26.640 that's the next step there are groups of people who were seen as who were it was roe v wade

00:47:31.280 kcv planned parenthood and then i think it was apartheid in south africa there were actually i think

00:47:35.440 roe versus wade came from that they were human beings might have been because they were inspired by the

00:47:40.000 nazis right just to clarify they're human beings that were seen as non-persons and that opened the

00:47:43.200 door to huge injustices okay and similarly today we see humans in the womb at this arbitrary line

00:47:49.520 and you're one among many i mean other people say well at you know right before birth is when they

00:47:54.560 become human or viability is when they become human or heartbeat is when they become human that's good

00:47:59.040 there's all of there's a lot of different variations those are all really bad arguments

00:48:03.600 i agree and i think consciousness is a terrible argument too because it's a great argument because

00:48:07.520 you can't that's your opinion the development of a human that's why i'm representing your opinion's

00:48:11.440 wrong and back to the toddler back to the toddler and the adolescent because you kind of you pulled

00:48:15.600 it you you had a clever move there destiny you were saying well you know an adolescent has rights

00:48:19.920 like signing a contract that a toddler doesn't have so therefore i think your next conclusion of that was

00:48:26.080 if you're a pre-born in the womb i can also tell you my conclusion you know you don't have to guess

00:48:29.520 because i'm here okay i mean feel feel free to give up but but it was an interesting position because what i was

00:48:34.880 trying to get to in that conversation before i got a little bit derailed there is

00:48:37.920 do you think that your age or your development as a human means you are more or less entitled to

00:48:46.080 equal protection under the law for basic human rights including the right to not be killed um

00:48:51.120 if if that development when you say including the rights to not be killed that fundamental right

00:48:56.000 to life let's just talk about only that right only that right pumping so yeah just i don't know

00:48:59.680 about intuition pumping let's just talk i isolate it and just say just the right to not be

00:49:02.800 killed the right to not be the victim of homicide i don't know i'm not sure it depends on what kind

00:49:06.320 of deaths we're talking about so here's a question for instance a lot of women have miscarriages

00:49:10.640 like without even knowing in the first few weeks they're getting pregnant do you think that those

00:49:14.640 embryos should be rushed to the hospital well if the embryo is dead no i mean okay but do you think

00:49:19.680 that like any woman do you think we should start locking every single woman that has sex

00:49:23.440 into some sort of facility to check for early miscarriages like that because if it is true

00:49:27.920 wouldn't that be the equivalent of a woman leaving a child starving to death on their floor

00:49:31.040 no absolutely no how dare you hold on can you answer a question no no no how dare you because

00:49:36.800 what you're talking about right now is essentially the real genocide of children is all the children

00:49:40.480 being miscarried right now in the first few weeks of development that's horrible to not feeding my

00:49:45.760 child why it should be the same thing no it's not why is it not well you obviously it's not because

00:49:50.960 oh my gosh it's not because well hold on you're telling me every woman in america if you want to

00:49:54.560 send human predictions all the way to the very beginning the very moment of conception if you

00:50:00.080 want to go all the way to the moment of conception then that means that a woman who just whatever

00:50:03.680 kind of miscarries in the first second or third week and doesn't realize it that is the same as

00:50:07.040 like oops somebody dropped their child down the stairs and they died no that is absolutely not

00:50:10.800 the same do you understand science of what happens in a miscarriage and an unattended miscarriage

00:50:17.040 unattended that's why i'm saying we should lock them up after they have sex

00:50:20.000 i don't think your argument doesn't make any sense my argument makes perfect sense

00:50:23.200 if you truly believe that at the moment of conception you've created a unique human being

00:50:37.360 then that means that right now you should be in tears because at every moment women that are engaged in

00:50:42.240 fact yes you could probably make the argument that sex without the intention of immediately going to

00:50:46.800 a hospital is probably immoral because you're engaging in some activity that might result in

00:50:49.920 the death of a child in two or three or four weeks because you don't know if you're going to have

00:50:53.360 every single time every single time a woman has sex immediately after just to make sure

00:51:01.600 that whatever fetus might be there is absolutely let me answer your question now that is misogyny

00:51:06.960 because what you're saying is women cannot gestate human beings in the womb and be productive

00:51:13.440 citizens of our society they should that's exactly that is misogyny so destiny i i don't know exactly

00:51:18.960 what hold on let's let lila go okay i don't know i think your question might betray perhaps a little

00:51:23.120 ignorance about how pregnancy works okay inform me because because if a woman gets pregnant

00:51:27.600 rushing her to the hospital is not going to magically prevent a miscarriage that she may or may not have

00:51:32.800 miscarries miscarriages happen for a lot of different reasons and i would argue especially for

00:51:36.800 imprisonment as an example imprisoning a woman who's pregnant which i'm opposed to by the way um that

00:51:41.440 additional stress could add to the miscarriage so if you grabbed a woman after she had sex that

00:51:44.800 might be pregnant and dragged her off to a hospital that might actually induce stress in her and yeah

00:51:48.400 but there's also potentially things there's behaviors a woman can engage in that would

00:51:51.120 increase the risk of miscarriage especially who doesn't know she's pregnant right maybe a woman

00:51:54.560 drinks say that one more time there might be behaviors that a woman could engage in if she is

00:51:58.560 pregnant that would increase however that means that you could have sex with a condom and with birth

00:52:02.880 control and you might actually get pregnant so if a woman is having sex and she starts drinking

00:52:06.160 or whatever she's murdering a child right then and there just let me answer that yeah that's why

00:52:10.240 we have we have um recommendations you know from the fda that women who are pregnant should not drink

00:52:16.640 alcohol no no you don't even know if you're pregnant that's the difference between direct and indirect

00:52:23.280 actions though right what is it doesn't get much more direct than doing no if a woman is pregnant and

00:52:28.400 does not know she's pregnant say she just conceived and she goes and celebrates her 20th birthday

00:52:34.080 at a bar 21st birthday at a bar and she drinks a whole bunch and she miscarriage it miss miscarries

00:52:40.880 no one would say you murdered your child you murdered your child no one would say that that's not

00:52:45.840 that that was not the intent it doesn't matter what the intent is you think the kid cares what

00:52:49.520 the intent is you've murdered a child abortion what is abortion abortion is the direct intentional

00:52:55.040 killing of an innocent do you think on the perspective of the fetus do you think it

00:52:58.080 carries if it was an accident or intentional that it was action we're arguing about the morality of

00:53:02.800 abortion which you've informed me like five times because you don't want to talk about

00:53:06.000 science sure but what i'm saying is that if you think that from the moment of conception

00:53:09.040 i will say i'll give you this destiny if you're if you're having sex and this is actually goes to a

00:53:14.560 a related conversation to the abortion that's very important i think

00:53:20.960 i have a question actually i have a question your question kind of gets into the sexual ethics

00:53:24.880 world which i think is important so we could go there sure if you're having

00:53:27.440 well am i am i allowed to ask any of my questions because none of them got answers

00:53:31.920 well i i would want to reiterate them sure i like three really basic ones

00:53:35.120 can i answer his his little hypothetical though really quick okay sure about the mass genocide of

00:53:39.280 well no it was more about you know if you're having sex should you be heavily drinking afterwards

00:53:43.680 i think was where you're going with that and i would say no you shouldn't actually i don't

00:53:47.760 think i don't think and this is part of our society's problem today post-sexual revolution

00:53:52.640 is we have separated sex from procreation and from relationship and because of that we have

00:53:58.480 the abortion rate of 2500 children killed every day by abortion because of that we have mass

00:54:02.560 unhappiness we have breakdown among male female relationships people actually are having less

00:54:07.360 sex in many ways than before pornography use is spiking and it's all because we've forgotten what

00:54:11.520 sex is designed for which is intimacy and new life so i would be against a culture and i am

00:54:16.560 against acts where people are just being promiscuous having sex literally none of that has

00:54:20.400 anything to do with what i said because everything that i described happened could literally happen

00:54:23.680 within a marriage where a woman gets pregnant doesn't realize it has some alcohol well then

00:54:27.600 i'll answer that too actually let me answer that too because i'm i'm i'm i'm saying that nothing

00:54:31.520 nothing but i gave that anything to do with those okay well then then i thank you for the

00:54:35.040 clarification okay um you know i can relate to your question i'm married we hope to have another

00:54:39.280 baby and yes it when i know if it's i might be fertile i might be getting pregnant soon yeah i'm

00:54:44.560 not going to be drinking gin and tonics because i might be getting pregnant and i want to

00:54:49.200 have my body be as hospitable as possible for that baby and i think that would be the prudent

00:54:53.200 thing to do and that's another reason if as a woman and you uh you're having we weren't talking

00:54:56.640 about what was prudent or not we were talking about like moral rights and wrongs but well i i think it

00:55:00.560 would be morally irresponsible yes to be getting drunk when you may be getting pregnant yes on the

00:55:06.480 same level it's like murdering a child creating a new human being is a logical there's a bit of

00:55:11.280 just one microphone of heterosexual sex and so that's what lila is saying is that if you're engaging

00:55:15.440 heterosexual sex you have to be aware that one of the very biological outcomes of that behavior

00:55:22.000 of that choice you've made is creating a unique whole living human life so therefore you have

00:55:26.640 consented to the fact that unique whole living life may come into existence by engaging in that act

00:55:32.560 knowingly gotcha okay destiny did you have more i said a very slow very very very simple questions

00:55:38.880 do we agree that is puberty a real thing absolutely puberty is a real thing okay when does it happen

00:55:45.680 it's a range oh hold on hold on i know i know where he's going i know he's gonna can i just make

00:55:49.600 a comment here but that's fundamentally different between hold on let me there's an absolutely there's

00:55:55.840 um sure sure lila like i love you but you don't let me answer any questions yeah jesus so you're

00:56:02.400 being misogynistic i mean i think it's been pretty i've been trying to be i think they're both i think

00:56:06.000 they're both misogynistic okay no no i understand where the question was you brought this up earlier

00:56:12.000 about puberty yes absolutely puberty is a real thing i have two preteens right now okay i'm reminded

00:56:16.800 every day that puberty is a real thing and absolutely it onsets at different ages based on

00:56:21.280 the environment based on a child's experiences or stress that the child may be going through or the

00:56:27.440 genetic conditions that a child may have but that's not that's not an equivalent for saying well we don't

00:56:33.600 know when human life begins when we know it actually begins and we've already proven as a

00:56:38.400 scientific fact begins at the moment of conception therefore we can kill a human being okay so all

00:56:45.200 i'm trying to illustrate to you is that you believe yes lila go ahead and we'll have you come in we'll

00:56:50.720 have you come in go ahead so i would just say uh yes there is a sliding time frame from when someone

00:56:57.200 might go undergo puberty but if you are basing a decision about whether or not you can kill an

00:57:02.800 innocent prepubescent or pubescent child then i would say your standard of puberty shouldn't

00:57:08.960 matter similarly to your standard your unjust standard of consciousness to demand that a baby

00:57:15.440 that's not fully developed yet has to be developed in order to be protected and i think that's age

00:57:20.000 discrimination gotcha okay so all i'm trying to point out is we do you agree you are age discriminatory

00:57:25.760 by the way do you agree i am age do you think are you age discriminatory so you're age discriminatory

00:57:29.840 about when human beings should have a lot of different things so you believe that it that

00:57:34.400 you're age discriminatory about developmentally discriminatory typically developmental discrimination

00:57:40.320 is for the protection of the less developed person it's not for the manipulation of a mother that

00:57:46.160 doesn't want to have a pregnancy there is another person in the equation here you know manipulation and

00:57:49.680 the harm of the manipulation or harm of the mother who's being forced to be a breeding factory for a

00:57:53.920 child i can morally load this just the other way if you want if you want to play that game i could do that

00:57:58.000 i think your argument actually is in consciousness i think you're you are making a bodily autonomy

00:58:02.800 argument yeah no i'm not that's the dumbest you absolutely are because you said the mother has

00:58:06.640 a pregnancy no the mother no i'm just trying to show you that if you want to morally load things like

00:58:10.240 murder of a child well then i'm going to say well forcing them well you didn't agree with me about

00:58:13.920 my analogy about um artificial wombs what i didn't agree i rejected it because it was dumb because

00:58:19.920 viability has no impact whatsoever on my feelings and whether or not a fetus is in doubt uh

00:58:24.560 in doubt but i think kristen is correct in that you are sort of talking out of both sides of your

00:58:28.960 mouth a little bit absolutely not right now i'm struggling to talk out of one side of my mouth

00:58:33.360 on the one hand destiny you're saying that it shouldn't matter whether or not the mother wants

00:58:37.840 the baby or doesn't want the baby if the baby is conscious and on the other hand you're saying

00:58:41.840 actually the mother's desire to have or not have that baby being forced to birth that baby actually

00:58:47.520 does matter so that's a little bit of a contradiction so it's not a contradiction at all whether or not

00:58:51.840 somebody wants to have a child or not it's not the same as when does the child get moral protections

00:58:56.560 those are two fundamentally separate questions however i might i might want i might want to give

00:59:02.080 birth i might want that language no well because you're using the language of like killing a child

00:59:06.240 no you're ending the life of an innocent human being that is a child illustrating my point yes yes

00:59:13.360 why are you so offended by the word i'm not offended because it's triggering you it's not that it's

00:59:18.320 triggering me it's absolutely triggering you because you've said it like six times because

00:59:21.360 you're begging the are you triggered destiny confirm or deny are you okay okay i actually you

00:59:26.000 know what i have the problem the problem is that what right now the point of our debate it's kind

00:59:29.920 of like going to a self-defense trial and having the people that you kill being called victims well

00:59:33.760 hold on right hold on hold on hold on you're the one who's advocating for the positive right to

00:59:38.080 kill a child in the womb that you're you're the one advocating for that okay we're advocating to

00:59:41.920 say you can't kill a child so you know that's i'm just trying to explain why calling it a child

00:59:46.720 is why does that bother you it bothers me because the subject of the debate is whether or not it is

00:59:52.400 a child so if you call it a child you're already presupposing the most difficult part of the

00:59:55.760 conversation it's bothering but i think but that's a contradiction to destiny because it is because you

01:00:01.680 just said you because you said that you become a person at consciousness this arbitrary line that

01:00:08.640 you've drawn that's not even yeah it's not even clear yeah and no it's very clear but you're you

01:00:12.480 never you never who hasn't named any you never talked about when childhood begins so let's

01:00:16.480 actually talk about that when is a what does childhood begin at a different time than when

01:00:19.680 personhood is childhood is whatever you want some childhood begins when you see your first

01:00:22.640 sesame street i don't know what does childhood mean okay what is when does a child become a child

01:00:26.400 when does it when is when is it okay to call a pre-born life a child in your in your i don't know

01:00:31.280 that's a semantic question i'm not really interested about us using the word if you don't really

01:00:34.560 because we're not just having semantic disagreements we're having like very discreet

01:00:38.000 disagreements on morality over when somebody should be when do you my disagreement is i

01:00:42.000 don't think that it becomes a person at conception that's endowed with human rights using the word

01:00:45.920 child when does the life you know because now you just asked me about childhood and now you're

01:00:49.680 asking child the reason why we're arguing over when you start having your childhood when you

01:00:52.960 start becoming a child let me know when i can fully answer the question okay please tell me okay

01:00:56.720 we're having a conversation right now about when something is endowed with like moral

01:01:00.800 consideration when something actually are you a liar i'm just asking i asked you to if i could finish you

01:01:06.880 said i could and now you cut me off let's let you lie to me okay let me finish the question don't

01:01:11.520 lie because you'll lose moral consideration okay all right no um if the the subject of the debate

01:01:17.840 is when does a fetus become a person okay child is another word for person so when you say okay

01:01:23.120 do you think it's okay when you say please do you think it's okay to kill a child obviously the answer

01:01:29.920 is no i don't think it's okay to kill a child but that's not the conversation we're having the

01:01:34.560 conversation we're having is just when is something considered a child so that's why i'm

01:01:39.280 obviously going to push when you say you're saying we should kill children at two weeks old

01:01:43.200 i don't know a fetus whatever you want to call it but do you know what latin the latin word fetus

01:01:48.320 means i don't care i'm not latin it means young one it's another word for child that's great there

01:01:53.040 are young ones that are puppies that doesn't have any bearing you're not going to etymologically

01:01:58.480 like win the debate against me so so just do you think puppies get consciousness at a certain

01:02:02.640 point not human consciousness we're only allowed to call a human life a child at destiny's arbitrary

01:02:08.880 line of consciousness what i'm saying is that because you're very offended when we use this

01:02:13.040 term so i'm trying to understand when it is in your book correct to use if anybody is triggered in

01:02:16.720 this room it is not me okay so it's funny you keep using the offended line i'm used okay you're you're

01:02:20.880 disagree strongly no i don't disagree you're just like presupposing the argument that's the

01:02:25.280 issue it's pissing you off when we use the word child is what we're saying confirm or deny are

01:02:29.200 you pissed off destiny no yeah okay um i you know what i actually can i wait no hold on it's the same

01:02:35.520 thing as you guys because i know you guys and i guess maybe this is just like in your brand is how

01:02:39.360 you purchase conversations but i know you guys get frustrated when people argue with you and you're

01:02:42.720 like you just want to take rights away from the mom oh so you're trying to make mom slaves oh you're

01:02:46.240 turning mom to the baby factories that would be if i wanted to engage in the same style of

01:02:49.360 conversation you're engaging in i would just say that over and over again why do you want to make

01:02:51.760 mom's baby factories why do you want to make mom slaves you know what is really problematic

01:02:55.120 is when we take away rights from certain groups of people and we force them to do things with their

01:02:58.640 bodies that they don't want to a lot of eugenics was done that way a lot of the nazi concentration

01:03:02.560 is that way in japan unit 343 did a lot of weird things again or whatever the fuck right so if

01:03:07.280 you're going to make the argument like oh well viewing people as people sometimes are not as

01:03:10.640 really problematic then i'll say okay well restricting rights from people especially women

01:03:14.000 has also been really problematic historically welcome to women's suffrage welcome to women being

01:03:17.440 able to own property welcome to women having access to birth control thank you for explaining

01:03:20.960 no problem i'll do it so you guys have the problem with the understanding so yeah so but i'm saying i'm not

01:03:24.480 doing that because that's boring to me because obviously if you guys thought that a fetus wasn't

01:03:28.640 a human life then you would obviously agree with me and if i agree that a fetus was a human life i

01:03:32.800 would obviously agree with you so when you use normatively loaded terms this is an important point

01:03:37.440 when you use normatively loaded terms like murder a child or commit homicide then all you're doing is

01:03:42.320 you're begging the question because obviously okay nobody at this table and nobody in this room

01:03:46.240 believes in killing children or committing homicide against children except the question is when does it

01:03:51.280 become a child that's i have a question for you though because you just said when the fetus becomes

01:03:55.520 a human being when does the fetus become a human being destiny the human the personhood comes when

01:04:01.440 the conscious experience starts which is about wait biology says moment of conception life life

01:04:08.080 biology does not tell you stop excuse me biology does not tell you when human rights you like i

01:04:12.880 talked to my four boys excuse me can we wait wait wait hold on christian christian one second one

01:04:19.840 one one one if we can and and you know there's been some comments about this um i would like

01:04:25.200 everybody here at the table to have an opportunity to speak so if we can try to try to including kiki yes

01:04:31.280 so if we can try to uh limit the interruptions let people finish their thought and then

01:04:36.080 you know go on i'd like destiny to have time to speak i'd like lila time to speak kristen you as

01:04:42.080 well uh go ahead kristen fetus when does the fetus become a human being because biology says biologists

01:04:49.120 confirm 96 percent confirm that the moment conception you became a human being you became a member of our

01:04:56.480 species but you kept saying the word it's not a human being so when does the child or entity or

01:05:02.880 whatever term you want to use it doesn't trigger you in the womb become a human being 20 to 24 weeks

01:05:07.840 so you're actually we went this is very important because you didn't say this at the beginning of

01:05:11.440 the debate beginning of the debate you were making a moral argument but you weren't saying that it was

01:05:15.920 a human position from you human being you this is what lila and i were exactly this is what i pointed

01:05:20.880 out like 15 minutes ago yeah that you are using an argument saying that it's consciousness that

01:05:26.800 consciousness gives that human being these special personhood rights not to be killed but i have made

01:05:33.360 the argument a while back that you aren't really making that argument because when i presented a

01:05:37.840 couple other scenarios to you you wouldn't agree with me but the argument what you just said

01:05:42.720 what was the scenario where i didn't agree the argument you just said was it wasn't a human being you

01:05:46.800 just said for everybody here that it becomes it becomes a human being at 20 24 weeks that is

01:05:53.200 scientifically unsound because what we've already proven to you is that the moment of conception

01:06:00.240 a unique human being comes into existence do you agree with me that a human being is present

01:06:08.000 in a mother's womb at the moment of conception if you want to define human being as unique genetic

01:06:13.840 code that appears then we can call that a human being but the conversation that we're having right

01:06:18.080 now is not about what a human being is the conversation we're having is when does something get granted

01:06:22.400 rights or moral consideration so i think and i would say with your terms then because you kept

01:06:26.880 saying you're the one that's mixing everything up i've been pretty clear and i'll continue to be clear

01:06:31.280 because you're trying to ask me when does it become a human being and if you're defining human beings

01:06:34.400 the thing that gets rights then i'll say it 20 to 24 weeks the thing that i've said over and over

01:06:37.520 again and if you want i write this word down what i am talking about and i've used this term before

01:06:41.600 is person or personhood and i think that a person a person is not a collection of cells a person is not

01:06:47.520 some body parts a person is not something that responds to pain or heart pumping blood when we

01:06:51.920 think of people or persons we think of people that are having subjective conscious experiences

01:06:56.560 like what we have now when we think of when somebody dies we think of that subjective

01:07:00.960 conscious experience ending that's why earlier the question that i asked that i will never get

01:07:04.560 an answer to and i understand why you won't answer it i asked you if a person is going to be in a

01:07:07.680 coma for the rest of life will never wake up can you kill them the answer is obviously yes but

01:07:11.200 the reason why you won't say that that's okay is because a comatose person possesses every single

01:07:16.000 thing that the pre-conscious fetus let me answer the question you can kill that comatose person

01:07:20.400 you can probably kill no you're not killing the problem i think it's wrong to take a gun and kill

01:07:25.280 the person in a coma i think it would be wrong to take sofa clamp and dismember that person 100

01:07:31.840 limb from limb who's in a coma i think it's wrong to take a needle and insert digoxin

01:07:36.800 into that person's heart who's in a coma and cause a cardiac arrest all things that happen during

01:07:41.680 abortion by the way we would never argue that a person who's in a coma whether we know they're

01:07:46.960 brain dead or they're not brain dead we don't know because we don't have an actual scenario we're

01:07:51.840 talking about here but we would never say you actively kill a person who's in a coma what lila

01:07:58.480 said i agree with that i agree and you can actually remove care you can remove the the breathing

01:08:05.840 apparatus you don't agree with this argument this is not an argument that you agree no you just said

01:08:10.080 we didn't answer the argument in your question but we did well what happened was there was a bit

01:08:13.760 of filibustering where i was if you want we can very clearly get to the bottom of this or we can

01:08:17.760 ramble on to irrelevant things you just don't you don't like our answer so you say we don't so what

01:08:21.920 you're doing is you're pointing out a difference so sometimes in moral philosophy people want to point

01:08:25.440 the difference between doing and allowing harm and there might be a fundamental moral difference

01:08:28.560 between doing harm to somebody versus allowing her to somebody it depends what you mean by those

01:08:31.760 actions sure you're trying to draw some difference here between doing allowing harm however none of

01:08:36.080 us here believe that that matters in this case right because if you look at a child none of us here

01:08:40.960 would say that they're that one is morally okay to allow harm versus one is morally okay to do harm

01:08:46.160 for instance if you had a child that was connected to an insulin tube or a feeding pump because they had

01:08:49.680 issues with digestion or feeding you wouldn't say that like okay actively killing the child is wrong

01:08:54.160 but if you just disconnected their insulin pump that would be okay because you're passively killing

01:08:57.440 the child we would say no they have a fundamental right to survive and be alive and you would say

01:09:02.000 the same thing to a person connected to a machine because if a person was in a coma or not in a coma

01:09:06.160 let's say they were just unconscious okay and we knew they were going to wake up in two weeks

01:09:09.200 so there was a high likelihood of it we would say it's probably unethical to unattach that person

01:09:13.120 machine even if all they did was sit there and starve to death so this weird description that you're

01:09:16.640 trying to or this weird dichotomy you're trying to make between doing versus allowing harm doesn't apply here

01:09:20.720 when we talk about moral consideration it absolutely i think you're making i think you're

01:09:24.080 i think there's a false analogy i think there's an oversimplification here when you're talking

01:09:28.080 about moral philosophy because a lot of it goes into who has the responsibility what my responsibilities

01:09:33.440 and duties are to you so if i am a doctor and my responsibility and duty is to my patient and i

01:09:38.400 have a child who's getting an insulin treatment yes it would be homicidal of me to rip the treatment

01:09:43.360 away from the child yes um if i am a parent and my duty and responsibility as a parent is to provide

01:09:48.080 nourishment for my child and i rip that nourishment away from my child then yes that would be a

01:09:52.960 potentially a homicidal act it could lead to death and it certainly would be a case of neglect and

01:09:57.440 perhaps abuse so similarly if i as a parent have these responsibilities to my children then i have

01:10:03.440 to it would be morally wrong for me to not live out those responsibilities and every child is dependent

01:10:08.000 on his or her mother i do not suddenly become a child or a person at consciousness you don't we don't

01:10:12.160 even have a clear line of when that is we haven't been able to nail that down you still can't tell

01:10:15.200 um and in addition consciousness you can go in and out of consciousness sure so in addition a child

01:10:20.160 before developing consciousness um only needs time to develop that so here's wait wait this is

01:10:25.760 the most important question one thing one thing um no i'll let you make your point but after you make

01:10:30.480 your point allow me to just come in and i have a couple questions most important question then

01:10:35.280 when you have a person what i said though i i'm curious your thoughts on what i just said

01:10:39.680 um do you disagree with what i said anything to respond to right there's something do you agree with

01:10:44.800 it disagree it when you start saying things like you should take care of children you can't pull

01:10:48.480 away care for children obviously i agree but that's all begging the question we all agree on

01:10:51.440 that the question is when do they become children so there's nothing no but but but what what do you

01:10:55.120 think about the distinction of i have the potential i have the capacity for consciousness i only need

01:11:00.800 time for that to be realized similar i'm under an anesthetic i can have the capacity for

01:11:04.960 consciousness it's not realized because i'm under anesthetic in both cases it's still wrong to kill

01:11:09.440 there's a difference you're not developing the conscious why is that difference matter destiny

01:11:13.760 because there's a difference between a thing i know there's a difference but why

01:11:17.520 hold on let them finish let them finish i am getting triggered you're right i'm getting triggered

01:11:20.720 okay i know we all know destiny by okay what the the argument is because she knows her argument is

01:11:26.960 bad and that's why she won't let me finish and it's tricking the fuck out of me okay well let's

01:11:30.960 just let destiny respond go ahead destiny go ahead yeah okay so the the the key money question that i'm

01:11:37.440 going to ask is is if you have a person connected at end of life care when does it become ethical to

01:11:42.560 disconnect them you didn't answer i'll answer that lila's question but why does your difference

01:11:47.200 matter why does what difference matter the difference of the child you're not even gonna

01:11:51.120 let me finish but i'll tell you the difference the difference is is there's a difference between a

01:11:54.880 thing and a thing that something will become those are two fundamentally everything so when you say

01:11:58.480 what's the difference between a fetus that hasn't developed the parts to have consciousness yet

01:12:01.680 versus what's the difference between me the fetus i told you she wouldn't let me finish versus

01:12:05.040 what is currently unconscious and will become conscious later after anesthesia will wake up the

01:12:10.000 difference is is you're not developing the capacity to have consciousness there's a continuation of a

01:12:15.280 prior conscious experience all the parts are there to create a conscious experience they're just

01:12:18.800 temporary temporarily alleviated they're just no it's not because the fetus has never been conscious

01:12:23.600 and doesn't have the parts to deploy the conscious experience so there's fundamentally a difference was

01:12:27.760 that two or three interruptions that i said were going to happen right there's fundamentally

01:12:30.160 difference between a thing doesn't even have the capability to to have a conscious experience

01:12:34.400 versus somebody else's is temporarily abated by a drug that is the difference thank you for that

01:12:38.720 you're welcome why does the continuation of consciousness matter the continuation matters

01:12:45.200 because the thing i'm valuing is the underlying machinery that has the capacity to deploy a

01:12:49.920 conscious experience why because in all the intuition of when we talk about other people

01:12:54.720 and things it seems like well ultimately that's kind of where morals come from don't they right and

01:12:58.880 at the end of the day at the end of the day the thing that we seem to be valuing at other people

01:13:03.200 seems to be the subjective experience that we're all having with each other okay that seems to be the

01:13:07.040 case under your logic destiny yes tell me a newborn child whose consciousness their memories

01:13:12.640 they won't even have memories as a newborn who's talking about memories because your consciousness

01:13:17.840 as a newborn child and even your consciousness as a one-year-old is very different than your

01:13:22.960 consciousness as a destiny however old you are okay are you less of a human less of a person

01:13:28.720 excuse me because that's the word where you're you're using here are you less of a person because

01:13:33.120 you have less consciousness yeah you might be okay interesting that's just because you're less

01:13:37.040 of a person doesn't necessarily mean that you have like not that fundamental right to be protected as

01:13:40.720 a life if you are less of a person just like a person who's prepubescent is less of a person in

01:13:44.800 terms of like being like endowed with all the rights of society so but they still have the right

01:13:47.600 to life okay so let's let's walk this forward then if you're a one-year-old and you're a little bit

01:13:51.760 less of a person than a 20 year old say should you have less or your human rights less as a one-year-old

01:13:58.720 than your human rights as a 20 year old where does that your human rights are less as a one-year-old

01:14:02.480 yes but in terms of like right to be killed wait wait human rights are universal and inalienable

01:14:07.440 third for everyone we're not talking about rights when you turn 18 to vote we're talking about your

01:14:12.640 universal inalienable rights where but the idea of a human right is we all share them and they can't

01:14:17.440 be taken away because we're human okay but you recognize there's a fundamentally different set of

01:14:22.080 like rights for children than there are well i think now if you want to talk about like right

01:14:25.760 to not be killed that's why i keep clarifying that's why i keep specifying right to not be killed

01:14:29.040 yeah i think you have that right to not be killed yeah that is a human right yeah so just to clarify

01:14:33.920 the amount of how much of a person you are is what you just said does not change your human rights

01:14:40.400 because my human rights as a one-year-old even though i'm less of a person because i'm less

01:14:43.360 conscious than a 20 year old i still share the same human rights no if you want to yes okay

01:14:47.280 okay okay so why would you deprive a child in the womb weeks before developing this uncertain

01:14:53.600 amount of consciousness that's still very limited compared to even the consciousness of a newborn

01:14:57.440 why would you deprive them the right to life because they haven't become a person yet because

01:15:01.120 they haven't developed that but that's a circular argument you just absolutely not

01:15:04.160 you went back to the same i'm so sorry to be clear you're trying to say that let's say that a a

01:15:09.360 person is you're saying whoa whoa whoa you're saying let's say a person is 50 a person at one year

01:15:13.920 old and 100 a person at five years old and let's say you're saying that a

01:15:17.200 second trimester baby is 20 a person well what about somebody that's zero percent a person

01:15:22.400 well i would say that's not a person yet that's very clear very easy very obvious but you're not

01:15:26.640 you're basing that off of though development yeah the developing of a conscious experience just like

01:15:32.640 death is based on the development of the lack of a conscious experience age discrimination it's

01:15:35.840 maturity discrimination if you want to call it age discrimination you can call it what you want

01:15:39.040 you're trying to like dress it up to intuition you still didn't answer my question

01:15:41.840 well you're using intuition for your hold on no no when i say your intuition pumping what i mean

01:15:45.680 is you're trying to draw all of the negative things of age discrimination to make it sound

01:15:48.800 bad but you're not addressing the fundamental point i'm making which is that the conscious

01:15:51.120 experience seems to be and i'll go back to my one question is when can we decide to fill the

01:15:54.960 plug on somebody who's in the hospital what is the what is the defining factor for okay tell

01:15:58.720 me more about this person in the hospital sure they're in a coma they're in a hospital

01:16:02.000 they're okay are they under on there are they on they're on life support yeah i'm gonna guess and

01:16:06.000 they're not medically induced coma correct okay so i would talk to i would want to better

01:16:10.160 understand or did they just have a car talk to me yeah they had a car accident okay and are they

01:16:14.080 are they brain dead um they might be should we test for that do you think that's important yeah

01:16:19.360 that's very important okay when you say brain dead what do you mean by brain dead i mean there can't

01:16:24.000 detect any any brain waves on the person are they flatlining is there is there any heart so are we

01:16:29.520 going to go by detection of brain waves is what we choose because because if what you're getting to

01:16:33.520 it is ethical i believe okay to remove life support when there's no more hope for the person do you

01:16:37.920 think it's ethical to to dismember the person when you remove the life support um i mean like would

01:16:43.440 you do anything wrong if you like said i'm a sadistic person who wants to discover people have

01:16:49.200 the difference though is just let them answer the question okay okay it's not a proper analogy is

01:16:55.920 the problem it's such a good analogy because you enjoy it i know but it's not no no no it's important

01:17:00.720 because you're asking the very human questions i would expect you to ask which are the questions

01:17:04.560 everybody asks is is their brain activity well they're the ethical questions to ask when you're

01:17:08.080 a medical person making a decision about whether or not to remove yeah and we don't go by heartbeat

01:17:12.240 we don't go by response to external stimuli we don't go by those are often yes those are evaluated

01:17:17.760 when you're determining making this life and death decisions in a hospital brain death is usually what

01:17:21.520 we're looking at yes that is that is absolutely that is the defining aspect all right i understand so

01:17:26.560 hold on can i just say ask one question then you are you are making an um equivalence between a person on

01:17:33.680 life support and a child in the womb as if the child in the womb is on some form of life

01:17:38.880 support that is not that is not correct though that's not correct because when i'm a child in the

01:17:44.080 womb at you when you're a child of womb you're not on an extraordinary medical measure to support to

01:17:49.200 keep you alive you're in your natural habitat yeah because look can i get in this and the only let me just

01:17:54.960 say one last thing and i'd love to get done and the only thing that's going to kill you when you're in

01:17:59.280 the womb if not a miscarriage would be an abortion okay you you may so it's it it doesn't match you

01:18:05.600 you still haven't answered the question about the 21 week and six day old i said it's fine you do yeah

01:18:11.440 that they would be past my 20 week cutoff so they'd probably be treated like a child

01:18:15.120 probably that it's assuming that's the law it would be treated like a child yes so so you're saying that

01:18:20.640 the law is 20 weeks and that is exactly where you're at yes okay what about the child who's 18

01:18:29.040 weeks in the womb who has spina bifida and the doctors out of here aesthetic to correct spina

01:18:36.000 back in the womb oh in the womb if the parents want to that's their choice this is my question

01:18:40.160 before you made your farting noise yeah uh does that child at 18 weeks or the fetus or the thing

01:18:46.240 that you want to call it yeah does that child have any any rights no at all nope but see what's

01:18:52.480 interesting is you were you're conflating parts with holes because i'm not no yeah you were because

01:18:57.600 you keep saying that you earlier and we can rewind the tapes whatever that the child doesn't have

01:19:02.640 the capacity for consciousness but the child actually does actually have the capacity to

01:19:08.240 have consciousness at the moment of conception no all no excuse me at the moment of conception

01:19:13.920 i told you i'm gonna start treating you like a child okay at the moment of conception all of

01:19:18.400 the parts are there right the genetic code is there that's not the parts a blueprint is not a part wait

01:19:24.880 can we posture wait let me finish my let me finish my question yes ma'am so what part gets added in the

01:19:32.560 womb uh-huh at between zero days and 20 weeks no no no excuse me where does that part come from

01:19:41.360 destiny from the blueprints do you think blueprints to a car are the same thing as a car you just but

01:19:45.440 you just said it doesn't matter i said the child isn't going to magically become a car well i'm at

01:19:50.000 but uh but a one cell thing is not a thing with many cells you you you're acting as if can you sit

01:19:56.400 up oh my gosh if you're gonna treat me like a kid i'm gonna act like a kid destiny please sit up

01:20:01.280 and have good man treat me like an adult uh no let's go back to the coma let's go back to the

01:20:06.480 question about the parts and the holes because i think this is really interesting is this a bird

01:20:11.760 you just said that the child at 20 weeks has the right to life but the child at 18 weeks has zero

01:20:19.440 right that is correct that was my cut off absolutely all but what you were saying in your arguments with

01:20:23.440 lila earlier is that the child doesn't have the capacity for consciousness and i said that's

01:20:27.840 absolutely incorrect because at the moment of conception all the genetic material needed for

01:20:33.680 that child to obtain consciousness is there all in what lila had already said this is very articulately

01:20:39.680 all the child needs is time to grow and time to develop it's not as if a child in my womb at 12

01:20:46.400 weeks i you know take a needle and insert this like little part into my womb and say bam fetus now you

01:20:52.800 have the capacity for consciousness no all the parts are already there sure let's say that i walk

01:20:58.800 by would you agree with me on that fact that all the parts are there just one thing one thing destiny

01:21:03.200 you respond you respond okay and then i do have to jump in so destiny go and then i'll go ahead if i

01:21:09.040 walked outside and there was a hundred steel beams and there was a ton of nails and all the

01:21:14.000 shit laying on the ground and it was organized and i walk over and i push over the steel beams

01:21:17.920 nobody would say oh my god you just destroyed a building all the parts for the building are there

01:21:22.880 the blueprint might be there to build a building it would still be vandalism yeah but it's not a

01:21:26.400 building and i agree that killing a fetus is killing a fetus but it's not killing a human if i'm

01:21:30.400 if i'm a home the argument here is not whether or not a thing is being terminated we agree it's

01:21:34.480 whether that thing is the thing you're claiming it is it's part of the planning that a thing has a

01:21:38.080 blueprint or can develop the parts in the future i'm not claiming it hold on let them finish

01:21:43.360 that argument right there betrays your whole point because you're conceding that it is not the

01:21:47.280 thing itself if i walk by a construction site and i start knocking stuff over i haven't destroyed

01:21:51.680 a building the pieces of a thing are not the thing itself um i think that when does the fetus

01:21:56.720 can i i'll just answer that really quick if you go in and start burning the building before it's

01:22:01.280 built yeah that would be a problem and it would be vandalism and it would hurt the it would be

01:22:05.600 vandalism and it would hurt a future building but it hasn't destroyed a building has it it definitely

01:22:09.760 destroyed what you were building for sure yes but it didn't destroy a building right yeah but but

01:22:13.360 this is the difference no that's this is the whole subject if you've destroyed all the materials we're

01:22:18.000 building have you destroyed a building a building is a thing a human i mean i think i think it doesn't

01:22:23.360 match to what our conversation is i think it matches on our life because an embryo is a you is a whole

01:22:28.640 unique individual let's come back to that let's come let's go to the coma back really quick because i

01:22:33.360 actually want to do something well let's come back to that in a little bit we do have a couple chats to

01:22:37.600 get through here we're going to read through a couple of these chats um if you want give a quick

01:22:41.760 response please and then we'll continue on with the conversation we have about i think 10 or so

01:22:46.560 different chats uh gred neck thank you for the uh 50 appreciate it i'm pro-life first of all woman

01:22:53.680 let the man speak damn it second destiny is a destiny a hypothetical is something that is a scientific

01:23:01.920 you guys should probably spell check these before sending uh pot things that are unrealistic like a

01:23:07.280 button saying not going to wake up is unrealistic and impossible gred neck thank you there for the

01:23:12.000 donation we have stir the sauce oh nine thank you man hr 1074 if the perpetrator commits the predicate

01:23:19.680 offense with the intent to kill the unborn child the punishment for that offense is the same as the

01:23:25.040 punishment provided under fed federal law for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being

01:23:31.920 explain by the way if you want you can read them on the screen here can we go to the coma or because

01:23:38.160 we got let's do a few more we got a few more um did anybody want to respond to stir the sauces he's

01:23:43.360 saying that he's trying to make an argument from illegality but it's a dumb argument because nobody

01:23:46.720 here believes in that because if the law right now said that killing a fetus incurred no penalty

01:23:50.400 obviously they would disagree with the law if the law says that killing a fetus incurs a penalty of

01:23:53.760 homicide i would probably disagree with that law but i mean okay it's just it no none of us here

01:23:57.680 are arguing sure what's legal or not all right next chat we have mickey hey thank you for the

01:24:01.600 69 uh donation thank you take turns talking it's the woman couple choice why is it anyone's

01:24:08.560 business who is not going to raise and finance the child have a say all that is needed to do is

01:24:14.240 provide a safe space for them in order to prevent unnecessary casualty due to self-abortion can anybody

01:24:20.880 parse that that's a stupid argument people that say that it's just a decision between the man and a

01:24:25.440 woman is dumb because the what's being debated here is the life of a child if you believe it's a child

01:24:29.360 then it's not just two people that have a say over it the life of the child ought to be provided

01:24:32.240 some personal negative rise as well all right we have alvin sam here if abortion is murder should

01:24:36.960 the woman be charged with that and go to jail credit to roll it for this uh lila or kristen do you have a

01:24:43.200 response to alvin's chat here i believe that those who commit murder so the abortionists those who would

01:24:50.160 be assisting in the abortion could be tried with a crime and actually we've written laws at students for

01:24:56.240 life action that do make uh committing abortion a criminal offense we do not believe that a woman

01:25:02.960 should go to jail from abortion because sadly for 50 years in our country we have told women that it's

01:25:09.120 not murder and it's not killing it's simply a removal of meaningless blobs of tissue that don't

01:25:14.160 have any consciousness yet um which we know is false and so we actually see her very much as a second

01:25:19.680 victim of the abortion industry that tells her that she can't that she isn't capable enough as you

01:25:25.840 know the argument that destiny was making earlier that women somehow aren't capable enough of

01:25:30.240 walking around this earth uh pregnant without you know being locked up or whatever to her potential

01:25:35.840 miscarriage we believe that she absolutely has the capacity to achieve her career goals and her

01:25:41.680 educational goals um but and sadly planned parenthood the nation's largest abortion vendor and the

01:25:47.360 abortion lobby has told her something different for the past 50 years that hold on real quick that's

01:25:52.640 the worst answer ever if you believe that abortion is murder then a woman should be held morally

01:25:58.240 responsible for a conspiracy to commit murder if she goes to an abortion clinic full stop end of

01:26:02.240 discussion if you think abortion is murder a woman going to get an abortion would be the same as a

01:26:05.440 woman going to get her one-year-old child killed abortion is murder it's murder for everybody involved

01:26:08.880 including the woman and i'm i'm more of that position which is that if there's obviously when it comes

01:26:14.480 to homicide there's a lot of um potentially mitigating factors full intent full knowledge coercion but i think

01:26:20.560 yes if you're willfully and intentionally taking the life of your child there should be criminal penalties

01:26:25.440 got it all right we have rams here with the canadian 69 thank you man appreciate it maybe we should

01:26:30.160 take policy back to the age old normal oh to the age old normal equals babies coming from marriage in

01:26:36.240 society is the norm and therefore out of marriage births will be the exception and overall less births

01:26:42.240 to consider for the mystery of when a fetus is a human okay rams thank you very much appreciate

01:26:48.720 did anyone have a response to that or uh david cena can you each describe what happens during an

01:26:54.480 abortion starting with destiny um i think it depends on where the development of the fetus is but i think

01:27:01.520 normally don't they start putting in tools cutting it up sucking it out i think it depends on how far

01:27:05.120 along the development is so would you like to go in detail because like if you like are advocating for

01:27:09.120 abortion i think you should be able to tell us what abortion really is my understanding is don't just prior

01:27:13.920 to whatever yeah so i think generally there's like this whole slew of i would call them like

01:27:18.880 gore porn films like sawn stuff that they have doctors watching beforehand so that when they go

01:27:22.240 in i think the goal is to inflict the maximum amount of gore and pain on the fetus before they

01:27:26.480 take it out so the first thing you do is you open the vagina up as much as possible dilate the

01:27:29.600 cervix give us a serious give us a serious answer i think they start with little razors it depends on

01:27:33.600 how sensitive the baby is to pain and they start to flay it alive in the womb and then they pump like

01:27:37.600 oxygen so the baby can start crying and everything why don't you give a serious answer

01:27:40.560 no because the argument of like what happens on some emotional level you're totally conceding

01:27:44.800 any logical point it absolutely you're conceding you're conceding because you're trying to win

01:27:48.480 on some like emotionally different point if you want to morally grandstand on it it's fine but i'm

01:27:51.360 not here to like mince words over like oh well this is what happens to the other well if you

01:27:54.720 support abortion i think you should have the balls i support cremation as well and cremation would be

01:27:58.880 pretty bad if i thought that a corpse was a living person i also support embalming too and that would

01:28:02.960 also be really brutal but that's not a living yeah and i don't agree that a fetus is a living

01:28:06.640 human welcome to my argument like two hours ago this is this is this goes back to the argument

01:28:11.200 that we keep saying wait hold on you keep saying it's consciousness but you just said it's not a

01:28:14.960 living human being are they dead it's not a person it's not a person in the womb who's 12 weeks

01:28:20.560 dead or is it it's not a person is it wait you just said you just said it wasn't a living

01:28:26.800 human being so answer the question it's not a person you can try to trap me on semantics but

01:28:31.440 everybody in the audience knows what i'm saying your heart is living but it's not a person

01:28:34.880 a fetus is living but it's not a person well you of course it's something yeah of course

01:28:38.160 i mean but you are saying a dose occurs there's metabolism happening it's getting external

01:28:41.840 nutrients just to clarify just just to make sure i'm understanding you're saying you were saying

01:28:45.200 that abortion isn't gory the way or it doesn't matter that abortion is gory the way embalming or

01:28:50.880 cremation might be because it's not taking the life of a living person something okay you said human

01:28:58.240 being but then you change it to person because you realize that was bad to say human being because

01:29:01.680 you already agreed that humans start at fertilization so but abortion does end the life

01:29:06.720 of something no yeah it does it it's terminate some process metabolistic okay so it ends life

01:29:12.880 yeah if you consider it yeah it's a living thing yeah so is abortion killing i think something yeah

01:29:17.520 what does abortion kill a fetus what is a fetus however you want to define it something that contains

01:29:23.760 a human probably on the total development of like a human you start as a zygote you begin mitosis and

01:29:28.960 you develop into a fetus and there's different fetal stages or whatever um you aren't you

01:29:32.880 considered a fetus all the way up to like delivery technically yeah like an eight-month-old so it's

01:29:36.480 a fetus as a human sure it could so it's correct not emotionally but it's correct you're not

01:29:41.920 literally telling you you're not gonna win just ask the question is it correct literally to say then

01:29:46.480 that abortion kills a human no because you're intuition pumping because when you say human

01:29:51.280 why why is she incorrect the ultimate example of somebody not being confident in their position is to

01:29:58.000 try to win the debate through etymology you're not going to win this debate by trying to redefine

01:30:01.920 words in a clever manner if you want to pretend that that's fine but like you're not making any

01:30:06.960 actual like arguments here what you're trying to say is like well do you consider a fetus a human

01:30:10.880 sure do you consider a baby human um yeah oh so you want to protect some humans but not others i

01:30:15.280 guess oh so what about white humans and black humans i'm trying to understand no you're not

01:30:17.760 trying to understand my point has been critically the entire time i'll restate it for like the fifth time

01:30:21.120 my point is is the conscious experience whatever you want to call that if you want to call that when it

01:30:25.040 becomes a human before that it's just a fetus if you want to call that a person or give a person

01:30:27.680 whatever 20 to 24 weeks at that 20 week mark is when you get the protections that you're endowed

01:30:32.240 with as a human person or the constitution of the united states at 20 weeks if you want to call the

01:30:35.840 thing before a fetus or a human fetus or a human thing or whatever you want to call it you can call

01:30:39.440 whatever you want but my position is crystal clear i've elucidated it multiple times if you guys

01:30:43.600 want to respond go ahead and then i'm going to get some more chats does abortion kill a human being

01:30:48.160 a human being i probably wouldn't agree to those terms no but if you want me to say yes

01:30:51.520 also you're like all over the map i'm not all over the map i'm crystal clear that you're trying

01:30:56.800 to semantically win on a point instead of having the actual argument however i'll say this i can

01:31:00.560 shortcut that whole question the question is stupid and their point of like saying like well

01:31:03.920 look at how bloody it actually is stupid because i can ask you this question and i don't know your

01:31:06.720 answer if there was a way to do an abortion on a fetus that was 100 humane that was 100 pain-free

01:31:11.520 they just went in and sucked out and instantly deleted it would you think that that's okay no no it

01:31:15.600 doesn't change your argument at all so why bring up how gory or whatever right there's no bearing on your

01:31:19.120 argument whatsoever i'm answering your question still an innocent human being sure i know i

01:31:22.960 agree i agree with everything you're saying but i'm just saying that like so the the method the

01:31:26.080 process of the abortion has nothing to do with the veracity of the argument so the only reason you

01:31:29.120 bring it up is to win emotional points that was the whole point of my initial point it's actually

01:31:32.160 very important to the abortion argument because as someone who's talked to women who've gone into

01:31:36.480 abortion facilities or have been considering abortion they are actually not fully consented as to what

01:31:42.560 an abortion actually entails and one of the big challenges that we face in the pro-life movement

01:31:48.320 is actually educating americans about what an abortion procedure really is it's simply a removal

01:31:54.800 of a couple of cells is it like removing your appendix or a tooth or is it actively ending a

01:32:01.120 human life that has unique genetic unique genetic code so that's a lie this is where it kind of falls

01:32:07.200 apart destiny in my view and tell me tell me where i'm wrong here okay help me understand this so

01:32:12.800 we were we were good we're talking about consciousness and you were saying that consciousness

01:32:16.880 the reason that con the development of consciousness matters for personhood and you you reference moral

01:32:22.800 intuition okay but you're very uncomfortable with the moral intuition that might also arise when you

01:32:29.680 consider that abortion is the direct killing dismemberment poisoning uh of a pre-born life human

01:32:37.760 human and what so why are you uncomfortable with the moral intuition against killing an innocent

01:32:42.800 pre-born life pre-consciousness but you're comfortable with the moral intuition around

01:32:47.440 consciousness okay just to clarify it is innocent right because you said it like three times

01:32:52.000 hasn't committed any crimes okay okay just making sure okay um i'm not uncomfortable with any

01:32:56.320 intuitions oh that's good that's why i've answered every question ever hypothetical we can talk what

01:33:00.560 happens during abortion you didn't answer well you can talk about that if you want i gave my

01:33:04.560 i said you answered every question but you wouldn't actually answer the question i don't i don't know the

01:33:07.840 exact procedure i described as much as i know about abortion i'm sure you know every single gory detail

01:33:11.600 so well we were i was simply going down i would like to really hear about what happens during

01:33:15.200 well we well we were going down a path where you said that abortion is killing and yes it's a human

01:33:19.200 but then i said so so you're okay with abortion an act that kills a human and you didn't like that

01:33:23.840 i think your moral intuition told you that doesn't sound right because i think that that you would

01:33:28.880 support an act that kills an and human yeah obviously but yeah but that's what an abortion

01:33:34.400 is destiny that's what an abortion is we're talking about your cognitive dissonance is raging right

01:33:39.600 now destiny it's not at all it's rage no it's been crystal clear the entire time

01:33:46.160 every hypothetical answer every question and why you guys are running like crazy for my very simple

01:33:50.400 questions well let's do a couple more chats can we do oh let's let's do the chats and then we will

01:33:55.520 come back to that uh we have juggernaut here just a heads up juggernaut thank you for the uh super

01:34:00.240 chat just it's a little a little iffy so unfortunately we're not going to wait what is it

01:34:05.280 about it's he's being a bit insulting to like he's being a bit rude sorry to who to the the

01:34:11.600 the misogyny um so tell him thanks for the 50 bucks so loser i'm not gonna say that thanks for

01:34:17.840 the 50 bucks fucking juggernaut we will read your other super chat though so thank you scott

01:34:21.520 servini hey thank you for the yeah 50 super chat thank you so much man this is a seriously

01:34:25.200 heavy topic for a dating podcast didn't know what i was getting into tonight i'm gonna stay

01:34:28.880 tuned though can't turn away hey scott thank you so much for uh the soup chat and thank you for

01:34:32.720 tuning in yeah it's a little different than what we're uh we normally do but um it's kind of

01:34:37.120 important when you talk about dating well i suppose it's abortion is somewhat related to dating and

01:34:41.440 you know it's in the red pill space i don't think it's that relevant a topic it doesn't like 90 of

01:34:45.840 the audience are virgin so well i mean i'm just well just related to dating i think it it's related

01:34:51.200 seeing as people have sex and then the consequences of sex can be pregnancy so sometimes uh scott thank

01:34:57.040 you uh jonathan d thank you for the canadian 50 appreciate it molar pregnancy occurs after

01:35:02.480 fertilization when replication of cells becomes abnormal the embryo becomes a trophoblastic tumor

01:35:08.400 which is cancer it is an embryo before it becomes cancer is a lie alive per kristen i'm a doctor this

01:35:15.680 is fact please explain i'm not sure uh what jonathan is that definitely supports my argument yeah

01:35:22.880 he's talking about a genetic circumstance where something's happened that's gone wrong at the

01:35:28.320 moment of conception um and and the child doesn't actually fully become a child it's like a um that's

01:35:36.640 why they call it i keep trying to describe it as it's a molar pregnancy it's a um it's a pregnancy but

01:35:41.520 it's not a human being is that like a stillbirth or no wait it's a pregnancy but it's not a human

01:35:45.680 being wait but doesn't it have unique genetic code it leads to a miscarriage it's a miscarriage yeah but

01:35:50.400 it is a human being right like children can have children can have genetic abnormalities that lead to

01:35:55.040 that and a lot of when we talked about miscarriages earlier when you kind of callously made it out like

01:35:59.920 it was nothing um miscarriages happen because of a genetic abnormality sure but to be clear those are

01:36:06.480 children destiny i think i think we can find agreement on your coma question oh my god

01:36:11.440 we have yeah we have oh we'll get there oh i'm excited for that we have seven more

01:36:15.200 the agreement on the coma we have nobunaga here hey thank you man good to see you back in the chat

01:36:18.880 definition of a child a young human being below the age of puberty or below the age of majority

01:36:24.320 if human life begins at conception like destiny agreed with then factually destiny is wrong your

01:36:29.200 response destiny i didn't consider to check dictionary.com before doing moral philosophy

01:36:34.480 fuck me thank you no bun nobunaga gredneck hey i'll read this one while it's up gredneck hey

01:36:40.480 thank you for the 50. sorry for the bad text what i get from this is destiny agrees with you on that

01:36:44.640 it is killing deleting after conception but the right to life begins with personhood at 20 weeks

01:36:49.760 and before that uh and before that it doesn't matter to him by the way love your podcast brian

01:36:55.440 gredneck thank you um destiny do you have a response to yeah that's probably what i agree you're

01:36:59.200 killing something right all right okay and then we have here i think we had nobunaga's i think

01:37:04.560 oh wait hold on oh this is the second one uh nobunaga hey thank you can i read this one sure go

01:37:09.920 okay definition of a person uh quote a human being regarded as an individual end quote since destiny

01:37:16.000 agreed that the unique human look that the unique human dna begins at conception then he is also wrong

01:37:20.720 again words have meaning and destiny is looking like a fool by trying to move the goalposts thank you for

01:37:26.400 the 49.99 okay nobunaga thank you do you have a response to him or is that sufficient if he's

01:37:34.560 going to bring out merriam-webster who am i to contradict him okay there you go nobunaga um

01:37:40.160 oh here's another do you want to read this one another one destiny is wrong again on consciousness

01:37:44.560 alzheimer's is a thing there are cases of people who get concussions go into a coma and don't remember

01:37:49.520 or suffer from memory loss his arguments are a bunch of b s and i bet he doesn't mean bachelor of

01:37:55.280 science probably not no i don't think so okay nobunaga i didn't know that alzheimer's patients

01:38:00.960 didn't have consciousness that's they they lose their consciousness yeah that's crazy okay but

01:38:05.280 there's just as much a person there was terry shivo or because because consciousness does not give you

01:38:09.680 your humanity or your personhood but it seems like that's when we decide it's gone right we have

01:38:13.760 a juggernaut worthy of life thank you for the big 200 super chat wow uh-oh was who's terry shivo

01:38:21.280 terry shivo is a woman who they're not sure how she had the accident but she ended up in a severely

01:38:28.000 disabled state um some called her a vegetable but her family said she's not a vegetable she's

01:38:32.560 interacting with us and she's a human being human beings aren't vegetables and her husband in a very

01:38:36.640 famous court case well he had a mistress and he was actively separated from terry because he was

01:38:42.080 her guardian um euthanized her chose to kill her in the state of florida and actually starved her

01:38:47.520 it was in the 90s and the way he euthanized her was that he they refused uh food and water

01:38:53.600 she died of she died of dehydration she didn't die of her condition she died of dehydration

01:39:00.160 that's back to the tell me when we can do yeah yeah almost we're about halfway through some of these

01:39:04.960 chats all right we have uh henry and pleasure is never as pleasant as we expected it to be and

01:39:10.720 pain is always more painful the pain in the world always outweighs the pleasure if you don't believe

01:39:14.640 it compare the respective feelings of two animals one of which is eating the other hey hey henry and

01:39:19.120 thank you for the uh super chat appreciate it we have christopher fisher here thank you for the

01:39:22.800 super chat according to the nih several conditions may mimic brain death locked in syndrome hypothermia

01:39:28.800 drug intoxication gulian jillian how do you pronounce that gulian bar jillian bar syndrome

01:39:34.080 delayed paralytic clearance all mimic brain death but all have recoverable uh with due time okay

01:39:42.480 christopher fisher thank you for the uh super chat appreciate it um we have dr ocho thank you destiny

01:39:50.000 you need to start asking them to restate your position back to you it's becoming exceedingly obvious

01:39:55.440 that they are either not listening or responding in bad faith lila seems like she's kind of trying

01:40:00.400 though so shout out to lila uh dr ocho thank you there i'll try to do better i'm truly and then

01:40:07.840 we have jonathan d here merci beaucoup for the canadian 50 uh molar oh did we wait did we read this one

01:40:14.880 or is this different molar pregnancy does not result in miscarriage google invasive molar pregnancy

01:40:19.520 it can in fact spread the abnormal in the sense that the child is no longer alive so that

01:40:25.120 there's no child that's okay but but yes it may just a quick thing i just googled molar pregnancy

01:40:30.400 for everyone who's confused sure a tumor that develops in uterus as a result of a non-viable

01:40:34.320 pregnancy there may or may not be an embryo or placental tissue in some cases of molar pregnancy

01:40:39.920 there is an embryo it's not properly formed and it cannot survive it's very rare fewer than two

01:40:45.440 20 000 cases a year in the united states and a routine blood test can just for anyone who's

01:40:52.240 concerned a routine blood test can determine whether or not you are having a molar pregnancy

01:40:57.840 okay uh also just to clarify earlier um because these guys wildly misrepresented the terry schiavo case

01:41:03.920 and i just wanted to look at the facts before um i corrected them uh one is terry schiavo had made

01:41:09.680 several statements to family members that if she were to ever be alive in some persistent

01:41:13.600 vegetative state she would not want to be kept alive indefinitely she said she wanted number one

01:41:18.480 she said that to multiple she had said that to multiple family members these are in court records

01:41:23.440 and secondly she was absolutely in a persistent vegetative uh state that autopsies afterwards

01:41:29.280 confirmed she was likely never to wake up from her brain literally was half the weight of where it

01:41:33.840 was supposed to be for somebody that's actually not true that's fine if you disagree with that but

01:41:36.960 you now you're disagreeing with now we're not arguing normative beliefs now we're arguing scientific

01:41:40.720 fact the autopsy reports and the people that analyzed her brain agreed just as much her brain was in

01:41:44.640 a worse state than another woman prior to her who had been um unplugged because of similar issues

01:41:49.200 she was disabled but you being she was not just let me let me finish she was she was she had a

01:41:54.960 severe intellectual disability no due to due to the accident but that doesn't justify starving her

01:42:00.560 and do you think it doesn't justify can i just can i just finish it doesn't just hold on

01:42:05.360 destiny you are wildly out of pocket no i'll cut you off this time that doesn't just compare

01:42:09.680 somebody in a persistent vegetative state that somebody with severe intellectual disabilities

01:42:14.480 is a wild statement she was not severely intellectually disabled she was a vegetable

01:42:19.520 she was a brain dead that did not respond to external stimuli and the autopsy confirmed just

01:42:24.480 as much there have been people who doctors have said are in persistent vegetative that's not what

01:42:28.000 we're talking about here yeah it is what we're talking about here because there are people who

01:42:30.960 doctors have said are in persistent vegetative state who went on to fully wake up and recover

01:42:36.080 did you know that that's fine so it is always wrong this concluded they concluded from the medical

01:42:41.120 records and consultations with medical experts that the scope and weight of the medical

01:42:44.160 information within the file concerning terry shivo consists of competent well-documented

01:42:47.840 information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood of improvement and that

01:42:52.000 the neurological and speech pathology evidence in the file support the contention that she cannot

01:42:55.920 take oral nutrition or hydration and cannot consciously interact with her environment she was

01:43:00.000 super brain dead i don't care what the husband said the statements that were used to verify

01:43:03.760 whether she could be unplugged she had made statements to her family saying i don't want to be

01:43:08.160 did she say i want to be starved she said i don't want to be kept alive forever on machines she

01:43:13.600 she sorry those were her statements that was what is legally entered and scientifically the evidence

01:43:18.240 does not exist that she was ever going to wake up the part the part you're not the part you're not

01:43:22.400 referencing is that the doctors that looked at her were paid for by her husband who wanted her dead

01:43:27.840 okay well all the courts disagree with you and all the autopsies disagree with you so i think her

01:43:31.440 family would actually disagree with you as well bobby schindler and i don't care i'm not i'm not here to

01:43:35.840 ask the questions of the family what i'm asking is what's entering what's entered on the why would

01:43:40.480 i care what a family member has because they were the ones interacting with her yeah but they're do

01:43:44.560 you think they're going to be the least biased interpreters of what's happening medically in some

01:43:48.000 event do you do you think that their experience and their interactions with her their conscious

01:43:53.920 experiences with her didn't matter yes i don't think they mattered well uh one question for for lila or

01:44:00.640 i mean you two i guess uh is this terry schivo thing does it come up it was a it's frequently

01:44:07.040 an abortion discourse it doesn't not frequently but it was a big case a couple decades ago okay

01:44:12.480 they were like the same age it was particularly the name is it was uh maybe because i live in

01:44:17.040 a republican household it was a really big deal because of all the i've heard their arguments a

01:44:20.880 million times where the argument that that people present is that she was she was there and she was

01:44:25.600 communicating with family members in the hospital and her evil horrible husband who was

01:44:28.400 fucking a mistress on the side just wanted to terminate her life to get away from everything

01:44:31.840 that's usually the arguments and they dehydrated it took her 10 days to die when you look at all

01:44:35.840 of the medical evidence in that case overwhelmingly do you think that was she was brain fucked that's

01:44:39.280 why all they can say is like doesn't the family member in the room matter well no do you think

01:44:43.040 the way they killed terry schivo was an ethical way of killing her um no at that point i don't give

01:44:49.120 much ethical consideration because i don't think it's even a person at that point

01:44:52.480 so are you less of a person if you have dementia um you can argue but you're not not a person

01:44:58.800 when do you not not become a person when you no longer can deploy a conscious experience

01:45:02.480 if you're asleep then or if you're you're under anesthetic then you're not deploying

01:45:06.800 your conscious experience when i'm under when i'm under and you can wake up why do you keep using

01:45:11.840 this as an example because because with an embryo you can develop you can't wake an embryo up they

01:45:16.480 don't have the parts if you give it time it takes time it magically enters the room

01:45:23.040 it's not the same thing so do you is that what you believe that there's something that like

01:45:27.120 happens it comes down from the sky no it actually hold on hold on do you think that something

01:45:32.000 magically comes down from the sky my bad well hey you're the one who like these well i know like

01:45:37.440 do you think that something comes down from the sky and inserts into the woman's womb after the

01:45:42.960 child is already alive and developing which you've already agreed to as a human being do you think

01:45:48.320 that's how a child develops consciousness some other part has to get added like she goes to the obg

01:45:54.800 lands off that is what i thought that's the wrong answer hold on we have to insert the consciousness

01:45:59.600 part yeah i thought because when women go for ultrasounds don't they have like the long

01:46:03.360 amniocentesis isn't that like when they put the consciousness in the baby

01:46:07.920 i'm asking you because you're the one making you want me to actually answer let's see if i can

01:46:10.800 actually get no i want you to answer oh okay because because the argument that you keep

01:46:16.080 the argument that you keep making uh-huh destiny does this count as an error because you actually

01:46:20.240 couldn't i'm not even anxious oh can i add the argument that you keep making is that the child

01:46:24.800 doesn't have the capacity i could just tell you would you stop for a second okay the argument you're

01:46:29.920 making is that the child in the room doesn't have compact have the capacity for consciousness

01:46:34.720 because a child isn't 20 weeks old yet and what we've said multiple times is that the moment of

01:46:39.920 conception which you agreed all those genetic components are already there is a genetic

01:46:46.480 component because the genetic code comes into existence genetic component is another word for

01:46:50.880 a blueprint a blueprint is not the thing itself do you well when how do you think a child gets

01:46:57.280 consciousness do you do you honestly think that there's like a part that's inserted into the

01:47:02.400 uterus that then gives you think i honestly think that why do you ask it that way do you honestly

01:47:06.720 think do you really think i honestly because i don't think you're that stupid okay thank you

01:47:10.240 that okay because you keep asking this where do you think i would say what do you think my answer

01:47:13.520 would be where does consciousness come from how does it happen tell me what you think i would say

01:47:16.240 i'm so curious i i actually don't know because you keep saying that the child in the womb yeah

01:47:20.720 because when you have the argument with lila about coma that you've talked about like ad nauseum at this

01:47:26.240 point okay i'm getting sick of the same argument over and over again let's talk about viability

01:47:30.560 would you stop interrupting me and acting like a child please i'm sorry you just like literally

01:47:34.640 keep talking while i'm talking does this all count as one interruption remember she asked me the

01:47:38.080 question like yeah no but when you're you keep arguing that the child in the womb has no rights

01:47:45.680 that can be terminated killed brutally dismembered brutally yes actually brutally you admitted that

01:47:51.520 earlier the only types of abortions i'm in favor of yes the abortions are very gruesome so you said

01:47:57.280 the child has no rights and that that because the child hasn't developed consciousness it doesn't

01:48:02.400 have the capacity and what the argument that lila and i've made multiple times today is that the

01:48:07.760 child just needs time to grow because the child has everything the child needs no it doesn't develop

01:48:14.880 if you don't kill this is the point it needs the child the mom by definition the child has everything

01:48:21.600 it needs at the moment of conception to the person under anesthetic needs nutrients to live

01:48:27.600 what how only how does it depend on how long you're under anesthesia okay if you're the one making this

01:48:31.440 argument you need to breathe if you're the one making the argument that personhood doesn't begin

01:48:35.520 until consciousness tell me how the child in the womb develops consciousness explain it for me because

01:48:42.400 i don't think you understand what happens at the moment of conception okay you probably know the

01:48:48.080 process better than me okay so i'm gonna try my best okay and then correct me if i'm wrong okay so

01:48:53.600 the egg sees a bunch of sperm guys around they let one in usually not always usually one comes in

01:48:59.120 and then the egg and the sperm come together and when they come together the cells begin to grow and

01:49:03.920 divide now over time once you've gotten to hundreds or thousands of cells billions different

01:49:09.520 billions of cells probably not interested there's like 100 000 10 000 then eventually billions of

01:49:14.240 cells right i think that you have little things called stem cells that go to different parts of

01:49:18.160 the body and begin to grow and develop based on the genetic code you have and how things are being

01:49:21.680 directed right during that process okay i'm sure there's a more complicated way to explain it that's

01:49:25.440 about as well i understand it so what i would say is when does the baby get consciousness it's not

01:49:30.720 magical what happens is is there are parts of your brain that stem cells are hanging out in that are

01:49:36.320 slowly growing out and developing it's getting nutrients from the mom it's developing along

01:49:40.080 some normal path and at some point it develops the parts and then those parts begin to metabolize

01:49:44.960 things and function and then you have that conscious experience so you just said it develops the

01:49:48.560 part it develops parts you just admitted it thank you you just admitted it that at the moment of

01:49:53.200 conception it doesn't happen no no no what i'm admitting to form consciousness is present what i'm

01:49:58.640 admitting can you can we have you sitting sitting straight up he's in his child do i really am

01:50:02.800 is that like a rule well it's just like it wasn't on the release i signed you have to sit up that

01:50:06.960 was on any of the parts wait look at the camera showed on me am i that out of frame it's because

01:50:11.280 you keep arguing down the if lila is in a coma but she has the ability to potentially why can't i

01:50:17.520 answer a question why do you keep like talking can i answer the question you did and i didn't get

01:50:22.560 the answer you actually just proved you were making the point that you said it develops so you proved my

01:50:27.600 point wrong develops implies you didn't have it that's why you develop it you don't develop where

01:50:33.680 did it come from did the magic conscious fairy deliver it in my vagina the reason the child got

01:50:39.440 consciousness is because the child the human developed its consciousness yes naturally just

01:50:45.120 like you will develop as you get older yes age you'll be you'll have an aging process the toddler

01:50:50.080 will develop age into an adolescent until you've developed the parts necessary to have a conscious

01:50:54.720 experience you're not having and we're saying that's illogical and it's not illogical it's

01:50:59.120 perfectly logical well you just like if i give you the blueprints and the parts and i show you

01:51:03.200 something the parts and the blueprint don't go vroom vroom but when i put the car together and i

01:51:07.440 turn the key on it does go i wouldn't say that just because i've got the parts and i've got the

01:51:12.000 blueprint i've got the vroom vroom i would say after it's all put together then it has but destiny

01:51:16.480 unlike a car and parts and someone putting in a key an embryo that's developing is self-developing

01:51:23.280 and self-actualizing with nourishment from within time with nourishment and time it's you can say a

01:51:28.640 self-building car that's building sure i'll say a self if you want to use something in a car a

01:51:33.200 self-building car with all the parts in the blueprint that can dissolve it's still not a

01:51:36.320 car until it's put together hold on hold on we want to use your car analogy gotcha if i go buy a

01:51:41.600 baby tesla because it's a tiny self-building baby tesla and if i leave it in a room with oxygen

01:51:47.520 and put a couple gasoline things on along the wall will develop into this mega beautiful tesla okay

01:51:54.480 i would be very angry with anyone who came into my garage where baby tesla was and killed baby

01:52:00.320 tesla and said well it wasn't a tesla yet because it wasn't big and and all the way developed yet i

01:52:05.040 would say it it would have been if you didn't kill it if you didn't destroy my test would have been

01:52:09.520 but it was still a tesla it would have it's still a tesla do you see that have my abortion destiny

01:52:16.880 that was very rude why did that one get to play but but it was the

01:52:22.160 i what the tts trigger is 199 and up okay so they can just sell me for 199

01:52:27.520 destiny a blueprint i see how it is destiny a blueprint will never become a car

01:52:32.800 an embryo will become a newborn if you don't kill it or it's not miscarried i

01:52:36.720 do you see the difference in why your analogy doesn't work the point of the analogy i know that

01:52:41.280 a car and a child are not the same thing well but your analogy also doesn't work your application

01:52:45.600 of the two things to compare doesn't work the reason why you make analogies is to show some

01:52:50.080 part of the argument that's similar and i'm sure your argument is wrong and faulty because your

01:52:53.440 analogy doesn't work do you do you see that because a blueprint doesn't develop into a car without

01:52:57.920 somebody else going so do you think that other pieces developing itself is like the thing that makes

01:53:02.640 it a human the fact that it develops itself that's that's one of the qualities of being

01:53:06.640 a unique individual human is that you can grow yes and you can develop okay i disagree i don't

01:53:12.000 think that that makes you so you're saying you're saying that it's not an aspect of a

01:53:16.080 of a human it is an aspect of it's not core to being an organism that an organism grows it's core to

01:53:22.000 a ton of different types of work cancer you just described okay cancers are things that grow on their

01:53:26.960 own and develop in pastel but are you are you equating a cancer to a unique uh human organism

01:53:32.880 cancers can be pretty unique but no i'm not equating you keep saying you keep doing this

01:53:37.760 thing where when i make a person are you saying this thing is the same thing no that's the point

01:53:41.680 of a comparison is to just show you the fault of your argument destiny the point of a comparison

01:53:45.520 is to expose where there is logic or a lack of logic and exposing the lack of logic what i'm trying

01:53:51.040 to get you that there's actually a lot of logic on your side understand is that a thing that is

01:53:56.240 developing into another thing is not the thing you're not understanding because it's not developing

01:54:00.400 into another thing it's developing itself itself to its full potential but it's developing let me

01:54:05.200 ask you a question it's a biology question do you believe a woman's body tells the child how to

01:54:10.320 develop is that your is that where you think how babies develop do you think the woman's body

01:54:16.320 tells the embryo how to develop i mean it depends on on how philosophical you get that you could argue

01:54:23.680 yes it provides half the instructions during insemination that is how that works but so after so

01:54:28.640 technically yeah after the woman's body is contributing half the dna now if you want to

01:54:33.040 cut it off at the conception mark which obviously you do but for a variety of reasons teleologically

01:54:37.360 we could after human life has been created after a unique human life has been created well if we

01:54:41.760 assume all the hard parts away well then yeah at that point it is an independent thing that i don't

01:54:45.360 think my guess is no at that point the mother probably doesn't dictate the growth that's right

01:54:48.800 because the child as lila has pointed out is self-directed the child tells itself the growth is

01:54:53.360 self-directed while taking nutrients from the mom yeah absolutely the child as any human being the

01:54:57.200 child is in its natural state i don't think any human being past gestation is connected to other

01:55:01.840 human beings taking every human being past gestation needs not other and no other human being is

01:55:06.880 connected unless you don't my my infants uh needed my breast to survive because i was producing milk

01:55:14.720 why why does that wait wait but destiny now you know they're not connected i don't know why you use

01:55:19.760 why are we saying that connection yeah your connectedness the degree to which you're dependent

01:55:26.000 or connected to your parent determines your personhood that seems to be where you're going

01:55:30.640 with that argument that is not at all where i've gone where are you going with that that's what you

01:55:33.280 just said well here's what i would say okay this is what i would guess okay what i would say is

01:55:37.600 broadly speaking 20 to 24 weeks is about when you develop a conscious experience so at about 20

01:55:43.280 weeks i would probably cut it off because when consciousness forms that's when the subjective

01:55:46.800 experience the person the who begins why why does that matter because that seems to be the thing

01:55:51.760 that we care about when we're talking about you care about that's what you care about why does it

01:55:54.880 matter everybody cares about it no that's why when we talk about terry shivo notice what you're

01:55:59.840 defensive majority of americans actually oppose abortion wait hold on what 200 what the different

01:56:07.040 oh uh notice how when you guys are talking about terry shi notice when you guys are talking about

01:56:11.200 terry shivo okay the thing that you were trying to say was hold on terry shivo wasn't totally brain

01:56:16.000 dead she had an intellectual disability that shows that you yourself were trying to grab at that

01:56:20.960 idea that she still had some conscious experience because at the end of the day we all know that's

01:56:23.360 the only thing that matters no sherry shivo was alive there's no doubt about that her body was

01:56:28.240 alive there's first person accounts of her okay in the room saying she's alive let's say you take a

01:56:32.720 person and let's say that you chop off their arm and you replace it with a bionic arm is that still

01:56:36.480 a person okay let's say you chop off the leg and replace the leg is still a person yes what if

01:56:40.800 you get rid of the heart and replace it with a bionic heart is that still a person yes and then at some

01:56:44.480 point what if you replace now let's say we've got a full human what if you just replace the brain

01:56:48.160 is that still the same person there have i mean yeah if that's possible i mean if you get to that

01:56:55.280 point okay it's ever been done successfully okay i mean it would be an interesting question but it

01:57:03.920 still would be wrong to kill that person destiny i have a question are you saying if brain implant

01:57:08.080 brain implants are possible it's okay to kill someone who successfully has a brain implant is that

01:57:11.840 what you're saying no okay because then then then why do you ask that question why is it relevant to

01:57:17.920 whether or not you can kill the embryo i my mind is so blunt i need a second to recover okay i've got

01:57:23.680 a question i didn't know we're gonna fight i didn't i've never met anybody that bit the bullet on the

01:57:28.080 brain transplant makes you the same person thing well i think it's i think it's good it's i mean people

01:57:32.400 say if you have a heart a heart transplant um nobody says that well there's people say i feel a little

01:57:38.080 bit different that i i the subject i hasn't changed you might have different feelings but but i don't

01:57:42.880 think you are your brain destiny so this is also a question really what am i you are you are a human

01:57:48.080 being which is made up of many parts okay let's say that you could cut my body right cut my neck off

01:57:54.240 right you cut right dismembering the neck let's say you can choose to keep one thing alive my head

01:57:59.040 and put it on another body or the whole rest of my body and put another head on what would you choose

01:58:03.840 to make it me well i would it's less about which one is you and it's more about do i have the right

01:58:08.400 to kill you no that's what we're debating here today no destiny no no you're being you're being

01:58:12.880 pretty squirrely here again no no this is the story of wolfenstein 2 did you play that game

01:58:18.720 so it's real it can happen no no this is world war ii destiny this is a very important point i

01:58:22.640 agree but you totally don't answer it no i am answering it because whether or not you can we had

01:58:27.280 the technology to put a new brain in someone else's brain right or we had the technology to cut off your

01:58:31.600 head put on somebody else and then put a different head on that other body i mean the question of

01:58:35.360 is that person still destiny or is that a new person those are questions to explore but in both

01:58:41.360 cases it would be wrong to kill destiny with the new body that maybe is part destiny or destiny with

01:58:48.880 the new brain that's maybe part destiny i don't know that's true i don't think i believe that well

01:58:52.800 that's an interesting position no i think you agree no i cut a person's head off okay let's say that i

01:58:59.920 stick the head on a bionic body and then let's say that i take a body and i put a bionic head on

01:59:04.560 well i don't think people would look oh my god there's two stevens they would go wow steven has

01:59:08.000 a bionic body they wouldn't go wow there's steven with a bionic head they would say this is steven

01:59:13.360 because we are our brains yeah because we are the consciousness we have i mean just like our brains

01:59:17.760 are various in the room but to clarify our brains are very very important and does have but just to

01:59:23.120 clarify our brains are very important but you're but we haven't donated two hundred dollars triple

01:59:28.800 seven triple seven triple seven triple seven triple seven triple seven seven triple seven

01:59:35.440 triple seven triple seven triple seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven

01:59:39.680 seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven seven okay uh thank you our brains our brains

01:59:47.280 are very important clearly agree but there's also a mystery there right about i agree about what

01:59:52.840 makes a human as in terms of the soul and the body connection because you can have a lobotomy

01:59:58.640 you can have a part of your brain removed there's the story of a baby like jackson who's born

02:00:02.820 missing a large portion of their brain um because of hydrocephaly or anencephaly and in those cases

02:00:08.780 you still have a person and it would still be wrong to kill the person do you think they kill

02:00:13.100 jackson no jackson's alive which one was the oh like six or whatever right that wasn't even like

02:00:18.780 wasn't it wasn't amazing it was tragic i have i have a question do you believe that baby jackson

02:00:24.680 should have been murdered who's baby jackson well not murdered he was a child born and he lived for

02:00:29.080 about four years with part of his brain and he's it's actually a common um justification for late

02:00:36.060 term abortion when children are diagnosed in utero with hydrocephaly or anencephaly when their brain

02:00:42.280 hasn't fully developed or their brain is i mean it's all hasn't fully developed it's ableist to

02:00:47.260 say that because you lack some brain function because your brain i'm not talking about lacking

02:00:51.820 some let me finish it for a moment it's ableist to say that because you lack some brain function or

02:00:55.980 you have dementia or your brain is less developed or you're missing a part of your brain that you are

02:01:00.140 less human and it's okay for someone to kill you it goes back to my slippery slope argument early

02:01:03.720 like at the beginning of this next to slavery no because you make a slippery slope you you've

02:01:08.000 separated out personhood from being human gotcha and the pro-life movement some babies like jackson

02:01:14.060 is um some children uh hydrocephalus was an issue with jackson i believe it was also a really famous

02:01:19.460 case in the united kingdom where parents are trying to fly around their hydrocephalus kid's brain or

02:01:24.700 they were trying to fly this kid's body around to get him like treated by doctors or whatever um but

02:01:28.620 the issue is you can have some like very basic human function i think you can respond i was talking to

02:01:34.020 you not them i didn't want them to hear okay but okay okay um the problem is like the brain stem

02:01:38.080 allows you to have some basic really basic human function like response to stimulus i think you

02:01:42.500 can respond to light you might be able to respond to like hot things i think but there is no conscious

02:01:46.220 experience there it's i don't even know if you would argue that baby jackson was having conscious

02:01:50.520 experiences no he wasn't i've met him no that's great i mean you can talk to his family i'm sure you can

02:01:56.540 and i would probably feel the same way are you like the expert in determining who's everyone's

02:02:00.700 consciousness yes and what conscious experiences everyone has i am that yes that is the problem

02:02:06.080 with your whole argument is your your argument i know the appeal to science i know it hurts

02:02:09.560 no you're putting a moral quality on consciousness you're so now we're talking about

02:02:13.760 you're putting a moral quality on it that's not fair uh-huh steven slash destiny are trying to say

02:02:20.720 that you get to be this this determinant of as to what types of experiences people have to have in

02:02:26.580 consciousness in order to be persons and deserve not the right the right not to be killed because

02:02:32.500 i brought up to you earlier about the the situation of children in the womb from a pro-choice and a

02:02:38.380 pro-life biologist who agree that 12 and a half weeks a child can feel pain a lot of folks would say

02:02:43.860 that would mean there's consciousness there no they wouldn't nobody would say or about the child

02:02:47.820 well excuse me these biologists would then bring them next time that nobody agrees or the basic

02:02:52.360 response to external stimulus doesn't even require processing in the brain sometimes who are

02:02:56.100 interacting with each other a lot of people would say well that obviously proves consciousness you

02:03:01.660 have this arbitrary definition of consciousness no i don't that is is really a slippery slope because

02:03:07.380 you already made it early in the conversation lila got you on i feel like some people in this

02:03:11.120 conversation may be lacking consciousness i understand no i think some people don't actually

02:03:15.160 actively listen and just wait to talk gotcha but i would say lila got you at one point

02:03:19.820 at one point lila was asking you about the conscious experiences of a toddler

02:03:27.060 versus what was an adolescent or a 20 year old and i would even ask you about the newborn

02:03:33.560 and you then admitted that those conscious experiences are different and therefore there

02:03:37.260 should be varying degrees of personhood which i go back to the fundamental principle

02:03:42.180 that's a bad if you're a human you're a person if you put if you put intellectual abilities or

02:03:48.440 development as a qualifier for whether or not you are protected from lethal acts from homicide

02:03:55.340 you're opening the door to tremendous injustice and that's what's happened with abortion

02:03:58.580 tremendous i i have a question for uh lila and kristen here are you it's been two hours

02:04:04.140 so if uh if uh you guys had to steel man the other side and be charitable what is the best

02:04:12.280 argument argument that you come up against from the other side the most compelling argument the

02:04:18.760 other side makes and lila let's have you go first go ahead so i would say it's not the consciousness

02:04:23.840 argument because i do think that that is pretty um it's it's pretty arbitrary and it's also the

02:04:30.260 moral intuition that's sort of guiding destiny you could easily apply that before consciousness so

02:04:34.360 i don't think consciousness and also you can be unconscious when you're sleeping or under anesthetic

02:04:37.480 and a toddler has less consciousness than an adult etc so it doesn't really work i think the most

02:04:41.700 effective pro-choice pro-abortion arguments are the appeals to extreme emotion in very tragic cases

02:04:46.740 um and those are those are i think what win the most most people over because they say oh my gosh i

02:04:52.280 can't imagine forcing you know a a rape survivor to give birth to the rapist baby so you hear these

02:04:59.160 really tragic cases that are horrific that are heartbreaking and they tug on a lot of people's heartstrings

02:05:04.080 and um you know the response the probably response to that of course just hearing of this horrifically

02:05:08.460 tragic case of this very young girl who's the victim of incest or rape and she's pregnant

02:05:11.840 um is to acknowledge that it's horrific because it is and it should never have happened sure and that

02:05:16.860 that girl deserves justice and that that perpetrator needs to be held accountable um and then you have

02:05:23.120 to ask the question okay what what next right what is the next thing to do here and the girl needs

02:05:27.460 medical care she needs counseling it needs to be removed from that dangerous situation

02:05:31.040 but is the answer to commit an act of violence against this new now third party in in this

02:05:38.020 scenario this pre-born life that is not the perpetrator of the crime this is my steel man position

02:05:43.960 it has well i'm not not necessarily your position but just the the steel man position uh generally

02:05:51.520 speaking and in this country you know we give the death penalty we we actually are forbidden by

02:05:56.440 federal law to give the death penalty to rapists in the united states uh but in an abortion um you

02:06:02.860 would be giving the death penalty to that pre-born life and when you're doing that too you know it's

02:06:07.780 done in the name of protecting that girl or that woman but that act of abortion isn't going to unrape

02:06:11.820 her it's not going to take away the trauma that she endured by the rape it's only going to levy another

02:06:16.960 unjust act against her that child that developing life that deserves life just like you and me so well

02:06:22.400 it's a horrifically tragic case unfortunately when it's represented without any counterpoint in media

02:06:26.680 i think it is effective in winning people to the prostrate side now we had second class citizenship for

02:06:30.600 a long time in our country and throughout human history we've tried second class citizenship and it's

02:06:35.260 you know saying that children who were conceived out of wedlock for example used to be considered

02:06:40.240 bastards and not be allowed to own property or obtain certain you know levels of positions uh in their

02:06:47.940 in their um professional lives and we've started we we said no that's actually wrong like a child

02:06:54.000 doesn't is not at fault for what happens the night of his or her conception or the state of marriage

02:07:00.680 of his or her parents that the child is unique whole living human life that deserves fundamentally

02:07:06.200 um the right to not be killed that right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness so yeah my my answer

02:07:11.920 would be the same as lila's okay got it and destiny what what would you say is the best argument that

02:07:17.680 you know why would i they didn't steal my position at all why the fuck would i give them

02:07:20.700 what any leeway whatsoever that was insane holy shit well i don't necessarily steal man but what is

02:07:29.160 the best argument you come up against from the pro-life side as someone who's pro emotional ones

02:07:34.720 when they bring out the tools and like this is what it's like to kill a baby in the womb or just

02:07:38.220 saying child obviously the issue is that all pro-lifers are unhinged lunatics and the only way they

02:07:43.580 can ever win any argument is with charts and graphs of this is what a fetus looks like

02:07:47.200 science and logic and terminating showing people what you're vacuuming it out and the baby cries

02:07:51.560 you can hear the baby go whoo as it's getting sucked into the vacuum those are the best arguments

02:07:55.360 they're so good and they're so hard to argue against because how do you argue i think i debated

02:07:59.260 a pro-choice scholar one time and i actually asked her we had a really great conversation she was

02:08:03.780 actually being intellectually honest at the end of the conversation and she and there's to be clear

02:08:08.260 she and i exchanged a lot of emails back and forth and we were going back of what we thought each

02:08:13.880 other's best arguments were and i thought it was very interesting that you didn't really want to

02:08:17.900 answer the question earlier you didn't answer these questions at all about what if i'm wrong

02:08:22.420 versus what are you i did answer that question because i actually think your position's extreme

02:08:26.100 it's a very reckless position so was yours to start especially when you talk about women's

02:08:30.240 because your recklessness results in tens of millions of children being put to death that's

02:08:38.040 that's the result of your recklessness there's already like tens of millions of children dying

02:08:41.240 every day to accidental miscarriages anyway so it's not like that much worse if i buy into your

02:08:45.940 position right because children die from car accidents it's okay to run them over with a car

02:08:49.480 no i'm saying that it wouldn't be less it wouldn't be as tragic if 20 000 children died from car

02:08:54.840 accidents if there were already like a million children dying no what i'm saying is that if you're

02:08:59.520 trying to make some appeal to a broader tragedy the tragedy loses a lot of gravity so we're saying

02:09:03.920 that question i posed earlier what is the question i'm not answering because what what what if you're

02:09:08.780 wrong i already answered if i'm wrong if i'm wrong it's pretty bad it's pretty bad who are you catholic

02:09:13.200 or religious that's actually wait wait what is your denomination what is your denomination why does

02:09:18.560 that matter well what if you're wrong i am catholic i convert okay well what if you're wrong i've

02:09:23.400 considered that a lot well what if you're wrong you're really wrong i've considered that's like the

02:09:27.460 worst type of wrong because not only not like forget anything happens on earth you're like

02:09:30.620 eternally fucked right if you're wrong on that it's like what for being catholic yeah you'll go to some

02:09:34.640 other hell or some other dimension of you know i don't know wouldn't that be like the worst thing

02:09:37.720 the world would be wrong about probably more important than the abortion thing it's who the

02:09:40.540 big man in the sky is this is why this is called this is why i referenced earlier it's called pascal's

02:09:44.020 wager this is why it's stupid to think like well what if i'm wrong about this particular thing

02:09:46.800 because you have to assign probabilities because you don't but you don't but but what you're doing is you

02:09:50.060 just like you're making these judgments of well it's consciousness somewhere 20 24 weeks

02:09:53.940 if you're driving and it's a dark road at the end of the night and you're tired and you see a shadow

02:09:59.360 in the middle of the road and you're like that could be a small child or it could just be a shadow

02:10:04.120 coming off the tree yeah and in your world running over the shadow is the same thing as running over

02:10:08.200 the child no in our world yes it is no because if you wait a minute won't the child run across the

02:10:12.880 road and the shadow will become the child and you investigate to make sure you're not running a child

02:10:17.320 in your world and the view you're taking is screw it i'm going to speed up and i'm going to go

02:10:23.020 through the shadow and just hope to god it's a shadow and it's not a child what if you're wrong

02:10:28.240 what if wait what if it's a reckless decision what if you're wrong what if i am someone if

02:10:33.240 someone can prove hey destiny if you or someone can prove me wrong i will happily well no you will

02:10:37.880 learn but like what if you what if you were wrong no if someone can prove to me that what i'm curious

02:10:42.340 because you made me deal with the gruesome details yeah tens of millions of babies being murdered so

02:10:46.520 what if i am wrong if i am wrong about abortion and abortion is nothing but removing a clump of

02:10:52.840 cells that has no meaning whatsoever it's just like removing your appendix which by the way

02:10:57.580 majority of people would disagree with because we all have seen ultrasounds i love how qualified

02:11:01.280 okay well no i'm just showing science right so if i am wrong and it's nothing and every you know

02:11:06.820 vaginal canal is suddenly magical and turns nothing and the magic conscious fairy too yeah that's right

02:11:11.520 because you believe in a lot of magic to to justify your position no i if i am wrong and this is really

02:11:18.480 magical yeah what i have done in my life's work and advocating against abortion is saying that women

02:11:24.400 who may not want to carry gestate another human being in their womb for nine months had to be

02:11:30.620 inconvenienced that's what if i am wrong okay that's absolutely but but if you're wrong you've

02:11:38.580 just said 60 million 60 plus million people were killed do you think if an 11 year old is raped

02:11:44.820 should she be forced to carry that childhood term now we've moved on to the well let's address that

02:11:50.500 because i actually was addressing that earlier yeah i want to hear that yeah yeah let's talk about um

02:11:54.060 i think it's a horrific situation and we both agree which is why it's such a loaded question because

02:11:57.680 it's just horrific that she's raped and that she's no 11 year old should be pregnant in the first

02:12:01.600 place okay so start with that and she needs support and care and the rapist needs to be held

02:12:07.640 accountable and she needs to be taken out of the vicinity of whoever's abusing her yep true we all

02:12:12.540 know this i don't know why we're talking about it but go ahead but but the solution in that what is

02:12:15.980 the next step in that right what is the next step in that very tragic situation yes it's not to take

02:12:20.900 the life of this innocent now conceived third party it's not to end that life that's not going to unrape

02:12:25.460 the 11 year old it's not going to untraumatize the 11 year old in fact it might traumatize her even

02:12:30.340 more true and it's forcing the birth she's still going to have to birth that life that life doesn't

02:12:36.540 magically come out of her she's going to have to be if she had an abortion and usually by the time

02:12:41.160 with a young rape survivor it's usually into the second well into the second trimester it's going

02:12:45.180 to be a very traumatic act that now kills her baby and she's still having a birth process just of a

02:12:49.620 dead child sure so then if the 11 year old gets raped is pregnant and is scared and then she goes

02:12:54.520 to a doctor looking for an abortion should you charge her with murder do you believe no i don't

02:12:58.080 think so because she's a victim if the so rila just said that in a lot of these cases where we see

02:13:03.780 these very tragic circumstances where there's been rape or incest of young children who become

02:13:07.500 pregnant the pregnancy is not often discovered until well into the second trimester well beyond

02:13:12.240 20 weeks beyond consciousness do you well beyond consciousness yeah so do you agree with us that a

02:13:18.480 child who becomes pregnant because of rape or incest with another child who's pregnant with a human

02:13:25.540 being who as you have said has consciousness is like i don't know 24 weeks do you think abortions

02:13:32.240 justify in that case no but just because i hate the woman so let's say you have the 11 year old

02:13:36.360 and the 11 year old goes to let's say that the 11 year old goes to planned parenthood to have an

02:13:40.480 abortion you think the 11 year old should be charged with murder no because no because in that case

02:13:44.840 she's an 11 year old who's the victim you can still charge adolescence with you don't have to

02:13:48.820 try him as an adult you can try him as a child you need to answer the question do you agree with us

02:13:54.080 though i have that's the easiest question in the world no you shouldn't be allowed of abortion

02:13:56.760 you should know what no of course not if it's already a baby why the fuck would you have an

02:14:00.060 abortion just because somebody's younger is going to be dramatically inconvenienced for

02:14:03.000 uh seven eight months or whatever we agree on something it sounds like that's actually yeah

02:14:06.760 but the difference is my position is coherent and i'm no it's very incoherent i actually want to go

02:14:10.660 back to your position if that's okay back to the coma and the consciousness yeah and and explore more

02:14:15.280 you were saying wait wait i just want to clarify yeah because what i was trying to demonstrate is

02:14:18.480 because you were saying that in your world if you're wrong it's the biggest genocide in the history

02:14:24.040 of the fucking universe it is and then you were saying in my world where i'm wrong

02:14:28.000 some women have been minorly inconvenienced for nine months for nine months big whoop but that's

02:14:33.040 not true in your world if you're wrong 11 year old girls are being convicted of murder no no one

02:14:39.280 supports that destiny no one supports that yes if you're an 11 year old girl so what 11 year old

02:14:45.140 girl in america is being convicted of murder hold on hold on hold on i said in your world in your

02:14:49.080 world where it's illegal to have an abortion and you get punished for it that's what you wanted

02:14:52.080 traumatized rape survivor who cares wait hold on so i actually said a sibling first of all

02:14:56.300 if your 11 year old is traumatized could your 11 year old kill their younger brother i mean

02:15:03.040 theoretically since you like hypotheticals if there's i do like hypotheticals if there's a

02:15:06.480 case by the way it's not hypothetical that children get raped by adults in the united states and then

02:15:09.540 get pregnant yeah well it's not hypothetical that late-term abortions happen on rape survivors

02:15:13.260 all the time because society says oh you should and i would say that's wrong but notice how i can

02:15:16.600 very easily and by the way destiny the only two studies the only two studies that have been done

02:15:22.880 on rape survivors and abortion show that over 80 percent of women choose life for their child

02:15:27.640 and 90 percent say that they are glad that they did and over 80 percent of women say that they

02:15:33.080 regretted the abortion but you don't care for the ones that had abortion yeah but you don't care

02:15:36.680 about those numbers so why bring them up what what are you talking about if those studies showed

02:15:39.820 the exact opposite that would have zero impact whatsoever on your that's correct on my

02:15:43.680 you're selectively bringing up pieces of information that might support you but like

02:15:47.880 who cares you don't care about that it should impact your position because you just said you

02:15:55.120 cared so much about this rape survivor that they should have an abortion and i was just giving you

02:15:58.500 data to show you that rape survivors actually regret their abortions when they have abortions

02:16:02.700 and when they don't have abortions they actually are happy that they didn't and you didn't seem to

02:16:06.480 care about that i don't care that's not relevant to me i don't you were just arguing from

02:16:09.660 i'm not arguing from any position of emotion i am crystal clear logically the entire way if you

02:16:20.100 go out to get an abortion on a third trimester baby because you were raped as an 11 year old then you

02:16:24.200 should be held responsible for a conspiracy to commit murder whatever the punishment i think

02:16:27.060 we even disagree there and this is fine that you do but i would compare i would consistently uphold

02:16:31.080 the law the same way what if an 11 year old killed her younger sibling or if the 11 year old

02:16:33.820 kill somebody now there might be other aggravating well aggravating circumstances that would change

02:16:36.880 sure that might be the case but i'm saying in general that's where i would start much the same

02:16:40.880 if anybody kills anybody you probably start with bro that was a murder like let's see what's going on

02:16:44.700 and we typically we typically start there yes but i'm saying that hold on but we just in a criminal

02:16:48.540 trial we look at we look at mitigating factors we look at all of these things i'm crystal clear on

02:16:53.800 all of this can we go to the coma except for when life begins because because we've just like oh wait

02:16:58.480 hold on i'm sorry do you believe in puberty can we you're not you know when does puberty begin

02:17:02.500 when does human life when does puberty begin okay guys i want to know i want to know because she

02:17:06.540 says apparently i don't believe in conscience because i can't give you the precise moment it

02:17:08.940 forms i'm curious if you believe in puberty no that's not the reason why consciousness is a bad

02:17:12.680 argument it's not fundamentally different it's a thing that develops in a range of time it's a

02:17:16.000 yeah it absolutely is no because you're when you develop puberty and when you when you start

02:17:20.760 puberty doesn't change whether or not you have the fundamental i never said it did i'm just

02:17:24.740 pointing to a developmental process that has some period of time destiny you were saying

02:17:28.860 consciousness is everything to you and if you have you're temporarily unconscious then that's

02:17:35.220 well because we're trying to understand i've already answered this question a million times

02:17:38.380 i'll answer it for the seventh time i want to get into the moral intuition thing because

02:17:41.420 wait where it seemed to land for you if i'm understanding you correctly so please correct me

02:17:45.360 if i'm wrong okay i really want to understand this yes where it seems to land with you as i was

02:17:48.640 trying to really pinpoint why consciousness equals humanity or personhood for you and especially

02:17:53.820 when consciousness is unpredictable people have differing degrees of it some people haven't

02:17:57.480 developed it yet and they're i believe still people but nevertheless you say that at this 20 to 24

02:18:02.700 mark is consciousness and that's humanity or personhood for for the for the human all right

02:18:07.400 so what i want to understand is why tell me more why you mentioned moral intuition earlier explain that

02:18:14.120 more sure when i think of all the ways that i could test for life or all the ways that i could

02:18:18.040 destroy life everything to me seems to revolve around a person having a conscious but you know that

02:18:22.680 it's a life before consciousness no you admitted that you admitted that earlier what do you think

02:18:28.420 i mean when i say a life you mean a biological human life no we all agreed on that do you think

02:18:34.640 that's what i mean i do okay in that case clarify i just realized my whole position is wrong because

02:18:39.840 i said a fetus was a biological you excellent you you won on on definitions we know we won okay we

02:18:44.760 didn't even need you to tell us i mean i i think our argument is pretty airtight and it's not airtight

02:18:48.540 that's why the reason why i've already explained it a million times all right the reason why you're

02:18:52.340 trying to play tricky words with the definitions it's because it is tricky words it's alive or

02:18:55.780 it's dead and it's alive in the room i should have a telling of every time are you conceding

02:18:59.220 i consider a person to have personhood let him talk 20 to 24 weeks that's when consciousness

02:19:04.280 develops right so my policy cutoff would be at about 20 weeks okay why does that matter is what

02:19:09.240 i'm asking the reason why and i said why it matters is because when i think of one how do we consider

02:19:13.140 when the end of life is the end of life seems to be the cessation of why do you have to measure

02:19:17.780 hold on let them finish can i answer a single question sorry excuse me sorry go ahead more

02:19:21.560 interruption okay no that's a good point i should have listened just just let me finish yeah so the

02:19:25.800 the cessation of a conscious experience seems to be the point at which we say that person is dead

02:19:30.160 and then when i think of like all the ways that i could replace parts of the body if i replace the

02:19:33.560 heart that's probably still a person the arms every single thing but when you start replacing the brain

02:19:37.580 something unique seems to be happening there it seems like we are our brains the experiences the

02:19:42.880 memories the subjective conscious interpretation of the world that seems to be the thing that's really

02:19:46.820 important to defend um so when i when i think of like when i'm instructive on like how could i end

02:19:52.340 a life and what is the end of life none of it revolves around reception to pain heartbeat unique

02:19:59.380 dna all of it seems to revolve around this conscious experience and then when i think of like let's let's

02:20:04.280 even be more abstract if i try to think of like what does it mean to create a life we're talking about

02:20:07.640 ai now right when we talk about ai when we talk about creating a life we're not talking about creating

02:20:12.720 bodies we're not talking about creating hearts we're not talking about even creating dna what

02:20:16.760 we're really talking about is creating or emulating a conscious experience in a machine that seems to

02:20:21.160 be the thing that we're defending when we think about vegans and why vegans defend animals they're not

02:20:25.320 defending animal bodies animal hearts whatever they're defending the animals conscious the sentient

02:20:28.540 conscious experience the animal that's why i say if life all ends that way and can be ended that way

02:20:33.520 that's probably when life begins okay i can't believe i answered the whole thing thank you

02:20:37.040 thank you thank you and i think i think perhaps i may be able to answer your question in terms of

02:20:41.640 where the disagreement is here because just like a person under anesthetic or a person asleep or a

02:20:48.120 person in a temporary coma that is going to wake up it would be wrong in all those cases to kill the

02:20:54.660 person right i agree okay excellent so similarly for a child a few weeks before potential consciousness

02:21:02.200 first can be measured 20 to 24 weeks in a few weeks it's a matter of time duration that child will

02:21:08.880 have consciousness so in in that way they are very similar they are not experiencing consciousness

02:21:15.180 but in a matter of time they will experience consciousness so in both cases it's wrong to kill

02:21:21.160 the child has the capacity to develop consciousness but but i want to understand yeah do you do you agree

02:21:27.180 no okay why why does the development process matter so much to you the development process

02:21:33.540 matters because there is a thing that i am valuing the thing that i value is the human conscious

02:21:40.440 experience no it's not you but but hold on hold on i don't think that's correct it's because the thing

02:21:45.940 that i'm valuing is or more precisely as before it's the capacity the underlying structure to deploy

02:21:51.740 that conscious experience yes and now when you talk about a person undergoing anesthesia okay

02:21:56.760 they have the underlying mechanism they have the capacity to develop a conscious experience but

02:22:01.740 why does the capacity matter to you so much abates it abates for a while because they might be asleep

02:22:06.920 or under medically induced coma whatever and then it comes back but there is a thing even when it's

02:22:11.620 temporarily ceasing there's a thing that we can speak of there was a conscious experience there was

02:22:15.500 a person that knew what it was like to be a thing to be a person that subjective experience existed

02:22:19.940 it might be temporarily abated but all the machinery is still there to deploy the exact same one and then

02:22:23.940 they'll come back and deploy this unconscious experience if i were to create a human okay up

02:22:28.640 until the moment that first conscious experience happens there is no prior experience to speak of

02:22:33.260 that's why when you guys that's why when you guys keep saying things that when you guys keep saying

02:22:38.220 things when you guys keep saying things like the fetus will develop the capacity it will develop it

02:22:45.240 but it hasn't developed it yet so there is no such experience to speak of for a sleeping person when you

02:22:50.880 go to sleep tonight you have had a whole subjective experience right now when you wake up that

02:22:55.380 experience will resume but a baby hasn't even begun what if i have amnesia and i don't remember

02:23:00.160 anything i'm like a brand new first moment of consciousness human being and during my and during

02:23:06.860 my coma during my coma i lose all memory i lose all lose all sense of my personhood and when i emerge

02:23:13.000 from my coma i am like a brand new baby would it have been okay during that coma to kill me

02:23:17.640 oh i would have to think a lot about that question so the issue have you thought about it before no

02:23:22.900 i thought about it a great deal but the question is way more complicated than than you seem to think

02:23:26.760 it is okay but that's not an easy question well it's not an easy question the direct the direct

02:23:31.660 the direct the direct the direct the direct the direct analog is when somebody takes a teleporter

02:23:36.260 in star trek are you killing one person creating a new person every single time no i don't agree

02:23:40.980 that that's the direct analogy it is the direct analogy no because when you start talking about because

02:23:45.280 now you're getting away from just conscious experience and now you want to dig into the

02:23:49.620 parts of conscious experience and i'm not going to sit here and lie and tell you that i can tell you

02:23:53.580 precisely because there are a lot of things that make up our country one of those things is memory

02:23:57.580 if you erase a person's memory and if you uh give them a whole new personality traits and then you

02:24:02.840 wake them up the next day is that even the same person well it's a great question i don't know

02:24:06.700 that's a really good question destiny a newborn or certainly a 26 week old pre-born fetus

02:24:12.500 doesn't have memory it has a very nascent if very nascent personality was a necessary part but

02:24:18.740 you're you you're trying to define consciousness what is consciousness brought up memory a few

02:24:22.360 times the subjective experience that we have knowing what it's like to be but their subjective

02:24:26.740 experience they're not even going to remember it that's because you don't remember it doesn't

02:24:29.900 mean it happen okay i'm still a human being when i'm blackout drunk so babies in the room have a

02:24:34.120 capacity to develop develop but they haven't developed it yet but why does that matter so much

02:24:38.260 because it's not the person who is brain dead yeah who you're saying has no longer has the

02:24:43.620 ability to have consciousness yeah so that's not the same you have somebody who is brain dead who

02:24:49.000 you're saying does not have the ability to have consciousness the conscious experience is over

02:24:53.820 you have your magic button right and you've already determined through your magic button that this person

02:24:57.860 can never have consciousness again that is fundamentally different than the child in the womb who has the

02:25:04.520 capacity still yet to develop consciousness the child in the womb who has the capacity to still

02:25:09.600 develop consciousness is completely different from the person who's lived their life something tragic

02:25:15.540 has happened to them and now no longer ever has that capacity obviously that's fundamentally different

02:25:22.000 what is it like to be a two-celled organism what is it like to be a newborn you don't remember it i

02:25:27.320 don't remember but i can probably guess what it's like but you can guess then guess away what it's

02:25:30.520 like to be a 10-week-old embryo then i i don't remember either no no i can't guess that doesn't

02:25:35.440 mean you can kill the 10-week-old embryo i can't guess what it's like to not have a conscious experience

02:25:38.860 guess what it's like to have a dreamless sleep well i mean but so fetus guess what it's like to be dead

02:25:43.560 no no no no i can i can guess what it's like to be a baby there's probably a lot of new sensations

02:25:48.660 you're probably having crazy temperature adjustments you're probably seeing a whole bunch of stuff and

02:25:52.660 really squinty wave i can guess what it's like i don't know exactly i can't guess what it's like to be a

02:25:56.440 thing without a brain i can't i have no i don't know what it's like to be a rock or what it's

02:25:59.900 like to be a dream sure do you think fetuses in the womb dream um i mean once the necessary brain

02:26:04.280 parts are there i imagine scientists say it could be as early as 16 weeks that probably i don't know

02:26:09.420 if i don't know if i believe that but i know science is hard to believe so i mean the reality

02:26:13.920 is the reality is what we're keeping do you think they actually dream though if they're having

02:26:17.840 REM sleep what do you think they're dreaming about i have no idea you wanted to say something

02:26:22.360 you go ahead and then i have something back to is there's all these qualifications on what

02:26:26.360 consciousness even means and when we take and isolate them and we kind of make an argument or

02:26:30.080 ask as destiny a question about them he says oh that that that specific aspect of consciousness

02:26:33.980 doesn't matter destiny has trouble defining consciousness he does trouble defining exactly

02:26:37.580 when it begins and yet to be clear i didn't have trouble defining it i literally told you exactly

02:26:41.780 what it but no you didn't you said it's objective different things it's a subjective

02:26:44.820 subjective hold on wait does subjective experience not count as a definition

02:26:47.740 okay but my point objective changes with the person hold on destiny yes so does your

02:26:52.140 conscious experience change with a person welcome to humanity yeah that's why your slippery slope

02:26:56.100 failed that's not a slippery slope to say that everybody has a different subjective experience

02:26:59.380 but the point here is your definition of what even consciousness is the aspects of consciousness

02:27:06.900 when you isolate them and and describe it is this a reason to assign personhood or not

02:27:12.620 it falls apart it doesn't fall apart at all because some people don't experience

02:27:16.120 when you're a newborn you don't experience your consciousness you don't remember it later just

02:27:19.620 because you don't remember it doesn't mean you're not conscious and when you're unconscious you

02:27:24.580 you're unconscious but you're still going to wake up and when you're an embryo pre-consciousness

02:27:29.580 you're going to develop it if someone doesn't develop it you're not waking up because there's

02:27:32.280 no experience to speak up but why does the development matter so much you can actually say

02:27:35.020 the child is sleeping in the womb so the child actually does sleeping sleeping implies you were awake

02:27:40.520 at one point that's what sleeping means things aren't sleeping from the moment of their

02:27:43.620 they refer to two different sleeps why does that happen in the womb why does the dna matter so

02:27:49.420 much it all matters that's what we're saying well no no it doesn't all matter because you

02:27:52.640 wouldn't say a sperm is a baby right no because a sperm is a part not a whole remember the parts

02:27:56.820 in the whole okay but but a sperm at some point will when combined with an egg will develop into

02:28:01.080 something else right when it develops into a hole yeah a unique single cell embryo that is a human

02:28:06.460 life that wait why should the uniqueness of the embryo matter more than the uniqueness of the sperm of

02:28:10.020 the egg because it's a whole it's a whole individual it's not hold on what do you mean

02:28:12.580 no no because a unique genetic code comes into existence a sperm is a whole thing an egg is a

02:28:16.040 whole thing they're both human things right it's not a whole human organism an egg is a part of the

02:28:20.320 mother part hold on so sperm so it's not hold on so semen and eggs are not part of a human organism

02:28:25.200 my skin cells are part of me my egg cells are part of me they know they're not a they're not in

02:28:30.820 of themselves an individual human life they don't carry unique genetic code and they're never going to be

02:28:34.980 and they're never going to develop into a unique genetic code and the cells in my body my my egg

02:28:40.060 cells are i'm not going to magically get pregnant without being having my egg cells inseminated

02:28:44.500 obviously sure but why should that be the defining point for how you consider life is biologists all

02:28:48.340 agree no no no no no biologists aren't answering this question it's a question more science i know

02:28:52.420 science because no no why why do you develop why do you value the zygote and not the moment before

02:28:57.180 conception because we all acknowledge that a human life begins at fertilization that's something very

02:29:02.600 special if you call my definition circular by saying a human life begins when we've agreed a

02:29:06.540 human life begins i'm asking you why you consider that because at the moment of conception i'll repeat

02:29:10.160 this slower this time at the moment of conception excuse me two parts apart from the mother the egg

02:29:17.860 the part from the father sperm okay unite and create a unique whole with you genetic code unique

02:29:24.880 genetic code why do you keep saying never because it's unrepeatable that's not true it's a unique

02:29:31.340 genetic code that's never they can both have children that are theoretically twinning happens

02:29:36.420 later by the way what twinning happens later by the way not necessarily sometimes so unique genetic

02:29:41.520 code comes into existence that's never existed before why do you value the unique genetic code

02:29:47.960 because that is when you became you all the components about you steven is killing a two-cell

02:29:54.900 organism is that just as immoral as killing a baby what do you mean by what kind of organism if

02:29:59.480 it's a human yeah so it's killing a fetus when it's two cells does that have the moral equivalence

02:30:03.500 to killing a baby yeah it's a human life okay if you're in just like killing a baby has the moral

02:30:08.540 equivalence even though you have less consciousness than killing an adult let's say that you're let's

02:30:12.400 say that consciousness and development your age your maturity as a human life doesn't define your

02:30:16.760 worth or your personhood so and and back to the zygote a zygote has the capacity for consciousness

02:30:21.980 no it doesn't it has all the machinery it has all the machinery needed for consciousness

02:30:26.300 no it doesn't have the machinery it has the blueprint that's all it has if you give it time

02:30:31.160 just like the coma patient and if you give it nutrients just like the coma but it doesn't have

02:30:34.740 the time to wake up from the coma will regain its consciousness it's not regaining it it will gain

02:30:39.580 its consciousness it never had it it's not regaining do you acknowledge there is a difference

02:30:44.080 between the person who had the ability to have consciousness who now in your magic button

02:30:50.720 no longer has the ability to have consciousness versus a child a human a fetus whatever name you

02:30:57.420 want to give that doesn't trigger you in the womb yeah that has the ability to have consciousness do

02:31:02.580 you understand the difference between someone who no longer has the capacity to form consciousness

02:31:08.120 versus someone who has the capacity to form consciousness but just needs a little bit more

02:31:13.680 time do you see how there's a difference there is there a difference between a dead person and a fetus

02:31:18.860 man i don't know that's a real it's a real mind i'm not sure i don't know i'd have to think about

02:31:23.640 that one maybe we can okay think about it let me let me uh i got a couple things here um this is for

02:31:28.240 the entire panel so um and i know this is kind of a unique question to ask um do you think this could

02:31:36.000 potentially be a good middle ground a good compromise and i know there's some potential existential

02:31:41.720 uh risks involved with the development of something like this what do you all think about an artificial

02:31:48.860 womb now obviously there's some considerations of well what what are the impacts on humanity because

02:31:54.680 we could use these as you know breeding grounds and um but but let's say just within the confines of

02:32:01.900 the abortion discussion do you think an artificial womb could be a compromise between both sides or

02:32:08.140 would you be ignoring some of the potential uh downfalls of an artificial womb would you be in

02:32:14.120 favor of yeah i think it's a technology that's it's very fascinating question um and i think that

02:32:19.760 uh especially if there's like a problem with the with that the woman is experiencing and the baby is

02:32:25.420 experiencing and somehow it could be like a medical device to support them you know it sounds like

02:32:29.340 it could be potentially used for good but i think the potential of the use for bad and the fact that

02:32:34.840 it's breaking the natural bond that that baby deserves to have with his or her mother um this

02:32:40.040 is why surrogacy is so problematic because you're severing that child often from the genetic mother

02:32:45.180 and from the gestational mother and then usually the social mother is sometimes even a third different

02:32:49.800 mother and so the child has a right i think to to their mother a child has a right to a mother and

02:32:55.480 so that's why we would say that that would be the number one goal is that that child has a

02:33:03.240 relationship and is gestated within his or her mother however i i ask this question a lot i'm

02:33:08.160 really glad you brought this up because i ask this question a lot on campuses because often we hear

02:33:12.240 the argument we didn't get to it today because stephen doesn't care about the bodily autonomy

02:33:16.260 arguments but we often hear the bodily autonomy arguments of it's my body i have the choice to

02:33:22.120 decide whatever happens to my body whether or not i want to give permission to this another human

02:33:26.400 being to grow inside of me that will change my body uh and someone who's been pregnant four times i can

02:33:31.720 testify to that so i actually do think that the artificial womb technology would actually it will

02:33:38.060 when it is developed will decimate the bodily autonomy argument that you will not actually be

02:33:43.100 able to use that argument to justify legal abortion any longer when a woman simply can choose to take

02:33:50.220 the child out from her womb and implant it into an artificial womb to grow that way um she doesn't have

02:33:56.720 to pay someone to end the life of her child now do i think that's the best situation no because a child

02:34:03.260 deserves to have a relationship with his or her mother and i think there'll be a lot of bad things

02:34:07.820 that come out of children who are born in artificial wombs who don't know who their mothers are

02:34:11.800 um and so there's a lot of other situations and societal questions we'll have about foster care and

02:34:17.540 adoption and things like that but i do think that will actually decimate this whole argument of

02:34:22.880 the quote need for illegal abortion in our country sure and i i guess one question and again ignoring

02:34:29.520 some of the i suppose societal impacts of if we were to introduce a artificial womb because there's

02:34:35.880 definitely considerations of if people started farming that's right kid children for example but

02:34:41.020 within the confines of the abortion argument um do you think that because

02:34:45.840 a woman could end the pregnancy but the the life could persist so do you think that that that that

02:34:55.640 would be if an artificial womb came came along do you think that would in effect put an end to the

02:35:02.640 whole abortion debate i would think it would but i asked steven this earlier about artificial womb

02:35:07.680 and he didn't i mean steven you're representing the pro-abortion side here um would you think

02:35:14.680 that those who advocate for legal abortion would say i still think they will argue no and from the

02:35:20.540 conversations i've had on campuses which are thousands now i've yet to have someone who agrees

02:35:25.900 with me that the development of it who's pro-choice that the development of an artificial womb uh would

02:35:31.880 eliminate the need for abortion as in their words because they would still say that while that's still

02:35:37.200 inconvenient to a mother to have to i don't know maybe the artificial womb only works at 13 weeks

02:35:43.300 so she would still have to undergo 12 weeks of possible morning sickness uh and so they would

02:35:49.480 say it doesn't matter if there's artificial wombs she still has agency over her body therefore she can

02:35:54.800 just destroy destroy it there's also a kind of a weird ownership genetic ownership argument that emerges

02:36:01.820 even though this is not i think a fully conscious thing by a lot of pro-choice advocates but

02:36:05.100 there's this argument of oh i don't want my kid out there in the world you know i i want basically

02:36:09.800 control over my kid so i think in that case it's sort of a property argument they make this child

02:36:14.640 as my property and even if it can be survive in an artificial room it would be it would it's my

02:36:19.580 right to that's what happens with people with ivf with couples where they split up and they've

02:36:23.620 already created human beings who are frozen in ivf clinics there was a very you know famous case

02:36:29.740 of a hollywood actress who this was this was the situation and nick lobe the the former partner

02:36:35.660 sued because he didn't want you know the mother to destroy these children that they had frozen

02:36:42.820 uh and the court ruled that the embryos were her property these human beings were her property to do

02:36:49.380 with what you know as she saw fit and that's you know a broader question of why are we treating human

02:36:55.200 beings as if they're a property to say well i don't want to get pregnant this isn't the best time for me

02:36:59.660 i wasn't intending to get pregnant this baby is inconvenient to me therefore i have the right

02:37:04.580 to kill it um we we act as in our country as if human beings are these children are property yet

02:37:11.700 then we also claim that we have a right to be a parent and that right allows us to own other human

02:37:17.300 beings which is wrong wait how old are those uh embryos when they're frozen a few weeks yeah a few

02:37:24.460 weeks they're not very you're in a burning hospital oh yes oh yes please give me yeah there are two

02:37:29.400 children crying on the bed like please carry me out but next to them there's a tray of 10 frozen

02:37:34.860 embryos you're grabbing the tray of frozen embryos answer this question are those my frozen embryos

02:37:39.680 um they're random people's children um i think that actually i actually think that makes a difference

02:37:46.320 because okay well i just told you it doesn't matter so no no actually i'm saying it i need to know

02:37:50.700 more information is i gave you all the information it's two random babies they're very asian and then

02:37:55.800 it's 10 frozen embryos they're all also very asian none of them none of the babies neither the

02:38:01.260 born toddlers or the frozen embryos are mine in this situation because i think first you have to

02:38:07.460 ask that question because i already answered it well no i would say some people when you would

02:38:11.380 why are you obviously getting so hard just answer the hypothetical i'm you're like arguing like you're

02:38:16.260 like boxing demons like shadows it's a loaded question i'm not answering i'm trying to answer

02:38:21.220 it's the same as saying would you press the red button yeah and kill 10 000 people over here or

02:38:26.980 would you press the red button and kill your entire family over here and you had to pick one which

02:38:31.140 would you but i'm not asking that question but it's the same question destiny but it's not the one i'm

02:38:34.500 asking you have no relation to any of the children yeah i don't know the question would be i don't know

02:38:38.320 i don't know what i don't know okay i don't know what the situation is i don't know it can i reach

02:38:44.180 those children can i reach those okay i think the majority listen to me can you let me answer

02:38:48.560 the question no the majority of people would say they would reach the majority of people would say

02:38:53.920 they're going to reach for the toddlers but that doesn't saying that you reach for the toddlers

02:38:59.180 can i answer the question you're not answering the question i absolutely i'll answer can i answer my

02:39:04.100 question oh yeah go ahead so the majority of people would say that they would reach for the human

02:39:08.900 toddlers versus the human embryos because they recognize themselves in those

02:39:14.000 toddlers those toddlers can also feel pain those toddlers are crying out to them versus the embryos

02:39:20.260 who are absolutely silent but that analogy doesn't change the fact that a tragedy is unfolding and

02:39:27.140 human life will be ended it's the same destiny just to remove familiarity because i mentioned

02:39:31.520 you did not answer the question just to be clear to remove familiarity because i know in one hand it's

02:39:36.080 your family and it's 10 000 individuals on the other that you don't know but let's make it a little

02:39:39.080 different let's say it's two toddlers and five elderly people in their nursing home there's two

02:39:44.360 toddlers crying in the lobby there's five elderly people in their beds who do you save grabbing the

02:39:48.600 toddlers every time if you grab the toddlers i hate old people right but but if you grab the toddlers

02:39:53.080 that doesn't mean you think it's good that the old people died i do i was glad when covid happened

02:39:57.400 come on destiny it doesn't mean that you think old people don't have value it doesn't mean that old

02:40:00.740 people aren't persons it just means that you're going to go towards the ones that you feel most

02:40:04.780 emotionally in that moment connected and you feel you can save gotcha similarly with the burning

02:40:08.380 building it doesn't mean that those embryos oh gotcha they're not persons gotcha they're not

02:40:11.980 humans it's just that no just like with the elderly people i'm going to run and try to save those

02:40:16.160 toddlers so let me i'm going to try this again okay and just after you respond i do have to get

02:40:22.320 through a couple chats but go ahead okay i would love to hear an answer okay two babies are right here

02:40:26.560 okay crying help me okay they're both one year old okay they can't run out of the building or anything

02:40:32.000 okay and then here is a tray there's a tray of 10 perfectly in vitro fertilized perfectly preserved

02:40:37.820 specimens you just pop them into a fake uterus or a real one they'll grow any people right

02:40:41.040 what's the morally correct choice the two crying babies or the 10 perfectly preserved embryos there

02:40:45.960 isn't a morally correct choice in the sense that in the sense that you are arguing that then if we

02:40:51.500 choose the children the toddlers that somehow means the embryos don't have value well of course we're

02:40:55.520 going to choose the toddlers they're just like i would choose the toddlers over the five elderly

02:40:58.460 people in their beds that doesn't mean the embryos or the elderly people aren't humans

02:41:01.860 okay let's say you had a choice between two corners do you understand that though do you

02:41:04.940 understand i don't know i'm trying to understand i'm asking another question let's see if you

02:41:07.480 understand i don't i don't understand anything that's what i'm asking what don't you understand

02:41:11.940 i don't i don't i don't understand anything but you don't understand destiny you're going to ask

02:41:16.980 you don't understand i'm asking a question to elucidate you're not you're not i don't understand

02:41:21.900 the difference between the toddlers and the old people that's what i'm asking so let's say

02:41:24.200 you don't understand the difference between what between like why the toddlers and the old

02:41:27.300 people matter that's what i'm gonna ask another question no no no no because i can ask another

02:41:30.980 question it'll perfectly but uh but hold on let's slow this process down because we go super fast

02:41:35.380 here which is fun we're not going fast it's a bunch of rambling we're not engaging well we just

02:41:39.440 keep going no we're we're going in circles a bit but the reason what i said i would like a response

02:41:44.740 to it destiny is because in my in my statement what i was explaining was that the elderly people

02:41:51.440 in the nursing home or the elderly people in the building are humans are persons and me choosing

02:41:56.540 to save the toddlers doesn't mean that those elderly people aren't humans aren't persons or

02:42:01.360 don't deserve the right to life similarly me choosing to save the toddlers doesn't mean that

02:42:06.280 me not choosing to save the embryos means that they are not persons not humans and don't have

02:42:10.820 the right to life does that make sense to you or what doesn't make another question okay can you

02:42:15.300 explain what what does it make sense about that i don't the age thing okay oh so why why so are you

02:42:20.700 saying that the elderly people in the burning building in your scenario are more worthy of

02:42:26.240 life than the toddlers because they've had more consciousness and lived experiences let him say

02:42:30.180 it let's let your argument what do you think oh my god you know i want to i want to know what you

02:42:34.240 think oh my god okay yeah let me tell you tell me the guests that most people probably me included

02:42:38.280 yeah you'd probably be weighing like roughly amount of life left about right like if we go on the

02:42:43.100 hyper most extreme example you can choose their one day old baby or somebody one day away from death

02:42:47.340 you'd probably save the one day old baby because they've got so much more life to live that doesn't

02:42:51.040 that person's alive hold on one more let's let's fix hold on hold on i thought that meant you could

02:42:55.300 murder the old person hold on let me fix that so let's just to fix to solve that problem for you

02:42:58.940 let's say the two toddlers you knew because you are a psychic or something you know you had this

02:43:04.140 fortune teller you knew that they would both die in five days yeah would you still save them or

02:43:09.920 would you try to go in and save the five elderly people in their beds five elderly people okay well

02:43:14.340 then there you go that that's that you chose to make the decision i probably still even though

02:43:17.760 if i knew in the back of my mind they're going to die in a car accident later and they're crying

02:43:21.040 right there i'd probably still grab them emotionally we're not talking about you think morally it's

02:43:24.700 more correct to save the children that are going to die in five days than the older people you

02:43:27.740 could wheel i don't think you can actually morally say whether or not children are going to die in

02:43:31.800 five days well but i think the bottom line is jesus christ whoa loud noise i think oh he's got

02:43:39.460 coming the thing is he's got an air mattress upstairs and i think his mom just jumped on the bed i think i think

02:43:43.220 what i'm trying to say here is that in that wait can i just ask my one question well we're getting

02:43:47.980 to the bottom we're not getting to the bottom we are getting to the bottom i'm so sick of the same

02:43:51.740 question destiny just likes to ask the questions to try to let's do uh no because he doesn't actively

02:43:56.540 answer well well let's let him say let's let him say let's order order in the podcast studio let me do

02:44:02.340 a couple chats here and then we can if you guys want to pick up uh again we can so we have doc

02:44:08.080 vanabolus here mr density terry s was not in persistent vegetative state she was severely

02:44:15.120 brain damaged she was still able to interact with others the videos are still available for

02:44:19.860 you to view by definition thank you that interaction excludes pvs so what is pvs persistent vegetative

02:44:26.640 state okay so that's why i tried to prove to to destiny but he said it didn't matter what the family

02:44:31.620 and the video said yeah that's true and i'll explain why that's wrong scientifically they don't like

02:44:35.420 medical explanation but i'll give the medical explanation give us a quick quick though quick

02:44:38.660 yeah very quick is people with a brain stem can still respond to incredibly basic visual stimuli

02:44:42.920 and they can do so in ways that's why when you watch the video of like jackson the baby he does it

02:44:46.280 i think you're talking about alfie that's it or alfie or whoever or terry schiavo is the same thing

02:44:52.520 so the videos you see are that now obviously the families are like oh my god she's alive she's

02:44:57.100 communicating everything but like the doctors all say this chick is super dead um the brain analysis

02:45:01.960 afterwards showed this brain was super dead she was never waking up there was never gonna be

02:45:04.880 improvement it wasn't just severe mental disability half her fucking brain was gone and she wasn't even

02:45:08.980 probably having a conscious experience what you're seeing is the very rudimentary uh expressions of

02:45:13.560 uh things your body can do to very basic stimuli that the brain what does that have to do with

02:45:17.700 abortion this is like we've talked about i was just answering the question about terry schiavo

02:45:20.720 so much today it's but what i've already explained to you when you're talking about someone in

02:45:26.140 persistent vegetative state or somebody who's who is severely brain damaged and we're not sure has the

02:45:31.600 capacity to have consciousness what does that say well how does that change the fundamental question

02:45:39.740 which is does the human in the womb have value who definitely has the ability to have consciousness

02:45:47.740 who's unlike the person doesn't have your response and then we have to continue it doesn't have the

02:45:53.740 parts yet it doesn't have the ability to have consciousness it has the ability to develop the

02:45:58.440 parts no the part i know what two cell organism where are the parts where are they in the two

02:46:02.720 cell organism the code is that's a blueprint a blueprint is not the thing itself but in two

02:46:07.180 cells where are the parts but where is the brain in two cells so you're back to the fairy you're back

02:46:11.040 it no no it's a blueprint if you put a blueprint alone in a room okay and you put the wood line up all

02:46:17.500 the wood around the room okay the blueprint doesn't magically correct direct the pieces of wood to

02:46:22.040 build the home and then you give it other things no but that's nutrients that's different because

02:46:26.820 the embryo self-nutrition it's a self-assembling machine but it still needs but the self-assembling

02:46:31.620 the blueprint genes hold on i'm sorry is there a brain is there a brain is there a brain in your dna

02:46:38.040 is there a heartbeat in a dna your no it can develop into it if it's a blueprint yes to develop

02:46:46.660 a brain and a heartbeat develop because it's not there yet true i agree so let's continue on with

02:46:52.060 some of the chats here um we have davon jackson here thank you for the donation yes he's simply

02:46:57.700 saying the potential for consciousness is not the same thing as having consciousness non-existence

02:47:02.020 is probably better than being born to parents who don't want you i'm anti-abortion as conscious

02:47:07.800 perception though i don't okay davon jackson good to see you in the chat man thank you much

02:47:12.100 thank you very much we have carmen here with the 69 69 dollar soup chat thank you very much

02:47:18.160 oh the sex number yeah that one haha all right destiny your arguments are as as baseless as they

02:47:24.440 are stupid human life is the most precious gift god can give a man and a woman in my opinion if you

02:47:30.040 are in favor of abortion what does that say i'll read the rest then i'll bet you are in favor of

02:47:35.040 legalized murder hashtag abortion is murder hashtag abortion is murder absolutely it's a hashtag

02:47:41.560 hashtag by the way okay thank you carmen for that uh super our donation appreciate it we have carmen

02:47:47.660 here again destiny your arguments are as baseless as they are stupid human life is the most precious

02:47:53.120 gift god you're literally reading the same give him oh it's the same one oh no oh they said they

02:47:57.820 sent it twice they sent it twice okay well carmen thank you very much uh appreciate it double time on

02:48:02.840 that one uh we have sweet tooth here sweet tooth thank you for the uh 69 dollar donation why is it

02:48:10.140 when destiny would use science you females attack him for it but you can use it later in the convo

02:48:14.860 and why you get mad when destiny when he interrupt but you have been doing it the whole time since it

02:48:19.640 started you girls are just too missing missing an o there are just too emotional um sweet tooth thank

02:48:27.660 you for the do you guys anyone have a response thanks for the misogyny i guess okay i just wish

02:48:32.500 destiny had another person here because i do agree it's a bit imbalanced to have two pro no this is

02:48:37.080 better if there was a second person i actually feel bad for people listening because i feel like the

02:48:40.300 people listening probably wanted to have more of a discussion about other arguments you hear about

02:48:43.700 abortion like bodily autonomy no those are dog shit arguments why would i have those arguments excuse me

02:48:48.980 i'm still talking like the person who just brought up the question about you know a person being born

02:48:53.700 having a bad life i feel like people who probably tuned into this debate probably wanted to talk

02:48:58.140 about other circumstances beyond uh persistent vegetative state and people in a coma because

02:49:03.800 we just literally have the same argument you want to see really good arguments in favor of pro-life

02:49:07.900 go watch my youtube videos like six or seven years ago when i was pro-life because my arguments for

02:49:11.460 pro-life were really good you should watch mine way better than what changed for you destiny yeah

02:49:15.820 actually we never got to that why did you become pro-abortion um because i did a greater analysis of

02:49:20.640 when death happens and then i realized that saying that life begins the moment conception doesn't

02:49:23.880 make sense unless you say death begins the moment all of your body disappears it doesn't make sense

02:49:27.340 why do the markers for life and death have to be the same thing um well because generally when we

02:49:31.340 talk about why a thing exists if we're trying to figure out like when a thing starts sometimes we

02:49:34.560 look at when but we know we but we agreed earlier when human life begin you just assigned person to

02:49:39.840 it at consciousness yeah so we do just like we know that like human life continues past death but we

02:49:44.100 wouldn't really assign that any type of moral way like things still happen there's some metabolizing and

02:49:47.640 that happens to the body after you die but like if there's actual true death the body's not acting

02:49:52.360 in a coordinated fashion anymore yeah maybe not in a coordinated fashion but there's still stuff

02:49:55.780 going on but we would say that like it's dead because the brain is but you but you usually give

02:49:59.740 a little window of time like there is a woman as an example who you probably yeah but you're not

02:50:03.380 giving that window just to clarify she was in her coffin and she actually was tapping on the coffin

02:50:07.180 because they declare death too soon sure we're not giving a window of time because we want to

02:50:11.500 extend it past when death has happened but destiny there's a window of time before consciousness

02:50:16.500 where the the the child the life the human is alive and will develop consciousness very soon

02:50:23.080 if it doesn't have the consciousness i don't care but when you're when you're dead and you're really

02:50:26.580 dead you're not going to become alive again yeah but if you're dead and you're really dead then

02:50:29.620 you're dead then we say you're dead so why so but so back to my original question why is having the

02:50:34.740 definition of death that's medical so important to you for a marker for personhood in the womb even

02:50:40.680 though before consciousness the human is still alive because there's a lot at stake in the

02:50:44.980 conversation so i think it does well to analyze both sides of like what exactly is happening so

02:50:50.240 figure it a lot at stake as in you're you've got on one end you're balancing potential lives that

02:50:54.500 are being lost and on the other end you are threatening the autonomy of a woman to control

02:50:57.260 her body okay so there is so okay so you you do care about bodily autonomy just up until your marker

02:51:03.480 of consciousness so this is about autonomy in the end if if we're just talking about a surgery yeah

02:51:08.780 it is just about autonomy yes okay that's a good good thing but your bodily autonomy doesn't give

02:51:13.360 you the right to kill somebody but if you're not killing a person but you're just saying the

02:51:17.320 reason that this consciousness are this consciousness definition matters so much to you

02:51:21.660 is because of bodily autonomy and because of no i'm saying the reason why the whole abortion

02:51:27.080 argument and figuring out when conscience starts or starts if we care about that the reason why

02:51:29.980 it's important is because in the realm of abortion that's what's at stake you're weighing um the

02:51:34.780 potential loss of a woman's autonomy for no reason if you're wrong versus the weight of murdering

02:51:39.740 children if you're wrong that's why it's important i would say if you're weighing those two things

02:51:43.600 murdering 60 million children would probably be higher up on the moral wrong it depends on the

02:51:50.240 probability of you being right or wrong on any given to clarify if i am an embryo who's going to develop

02:51:54.860 this consciousness in just a couple you are not just a couple yeah you were never hypothetical you

02:51:58.880 love these okay stay with me here i'm here in this hypothetical there is an embryo who's going to

02:52:03.280 develop consciousness in just a couple days that's not even you would make it's not because it happens

02:52:07.740 so in that case though you would say the bodily autonomy of the woman is more important those

02:52:13.980 two days prior to consciousness than that child's that humans excuse me you don't like the word child

02:52:18.740 that human's right to live true yes why because it doesn't have the conscious experience why does

02:52:23.560 that matter because that's the thing i think that we protect when we're talking about endowing

02:52:27.680 even though that consciousness is is i guess we're going to go back in the circle

02:52:30.940 you're talking about fundamentally the most fundamental thing is you're talking about

02:52:35.300 protecting a thing that i don't believe exists yet what about what if because medical technology

02:52:41.920 keeps improving right so we all acknowledge that it used to be 28 weeks oh my god you're making

02:52:48.340 another viability argument i don't care no but i'm just asking you this question so at 19 weeks and

02:52:54.520 if you could if you could viably take no i don't argue for viability why am i asking viability

02:52:59.460 if we have excuse me if we have medical technology that allows a child who's 19 weeks and six days

02:53:06.720 to be born and survive yep then you should be able to take it out at 19 weeks six days and use it as

02:53:13.100 target practice so that child who's born in the hospital yep who nick you is helping right to the

02:53:18.480 range can be totally hundred yards garbage yep magnifying scope and everything that is the

02:53:23.900 problem with the consciousness argument that's not a problem at all it's wholly consistent just like how

02:53:27.720 it is immoral if a person if a person is going to die if a person is going to die if a person is

02:53:34.260 going to die in one day is it ethical to kill them no it's not because they're conscious right

02:53:39.360 i'm standing over a person it still isn't right i'm standing over a person wait what if i'm

02:53:49.180 unconscious and when i be we are because you care so much about consciousness i'm talking about lack

02:53:53.660 of consciousness completely not just being temporarily i got a person right here person's

02:53:58.440 whole body okay i'm getting ready to stab this guy is there a difference when you're unconscious

02:54:02.420 you're lacking is there a difference between stabbing him five minutes before and five minutes

02:54:05.980 after he dies uh no yes of course because death is the is the important marker then you're asking

02:54:12.700 me is there a difference between killing a child five minutes before it has consciousness five minutes

02:54:15.600 after i'm going to give you the same answer but consciousness no because you still didn't listen

02:54:19.440 to what i already said like you don't have an hour ago hold on you don't have to kill a dead

02:54:22.980 person destiny as we both know you do have to kill a pre-conscious you don't obviously we're not

02:54:27.260 killing the thing i care about that's the whole point in an abortion you are a child in the womb

02:54:31.660 is alive so if you're killing a child in the womb five minutes before the child the question we're

02:54:37.180 talking about isn't whether there's a living thing it's whether that thing is a person why do we keep

02:54:40.960 going back to this so it is because because when you said because you asked you weren't you asked

02:54:46.260 a dead thing that becomes alive with the magical someone who is dead yeah is not alive do you agree

02:54:53.520 with that i totally agree with that yes so stabbing a person who is dead yeah is not the same as

02:54:59.540 stabbing a 19 week six day old fetus in the womb hours away from turning 20 weeks when you're like

02:55:07.620 little magic conscious fairy invades my uterus and suddenly implants a conscience the similarities is

02:55:13.260 that stabbing a dead person isn't harming anyone because there is no one of which to speak

02:55:18.420 stabbing a fetus that hasn't developed a conscious experience and it's not harming anybody because

02:55:23.020 there is no one of there by your logic there is nobody to speak up there is a person by your

02:55:29.040 logic stabbing an unconscious person has no moral problem because they are unconscious and there's

02:55:34.900 not a person of which to speak the child is going to become conscious destiny but they were never

02:55:39.740 conscious i just like to point out that if you can't explain why that matters if you become

02:55:44.080 unconscious why does pre is there a person still like to speak up that is not your conscious

02:55:48.400 experience why does pre-consciousness matter so much it doesn't matter if you've never been

02:55:52.240 conscious it doesn't matter i never want to hear the word consciousness ever again after this

02:55:55.320 here let's uh we got some chats how many times have we said it we got some chats one more thing on the

02:55:59.600 burning building one more thing oh can i ask my one thing in the burning building well let's say

02:56:03.560 hold on wait wait can i just say what i'm saying order order order order on the titanic right

02:56:10.140 make it quick make it quick okay i'll make it quick they saved the women and children first right

02:56:15.040 i don't even know if that's true okay well they should have or whatever right typically we save the

02:56:18.600 children or the woman first that doesn't mean that the men are less human or less persons than

02:56:23.540 the woman and the children no no there you go so similarly if you happen to save the toddler but

02:56:28.280 not the embryo or not the elderly person that doesn't mean that's why the numbers were brought

02:56:31.680 up or the embryo or the elderly person is less human or less of a person okay okay so we have the

02:56:37.720 moral quality we have some chats here we got dank naked here thank you for the donation the word

02:56:41.960 fetus means offspring in latin if you kill a fetus you're killing human offspring what is in that womb

02:56:46.640 is human we can tell the difference between an elephant fetus and a human fetus dank naked

02:56:51.320 thank you very much for that uh yeah desi told me earlier he didn't care what the word fetus meant

02:56:55.360 when i asked him true i don't win debates with the dictionary we have uh pyrotechnus thank you for

02:56:59.920 the donation what about an egg's possibility to undergo parthenogenesis and develop into a fetus

02:57:06.160 without sperm fertilization holy shit i can't even i don't know i can't you don't know what

02:57:11.800 parthenogenesis unfortunately not fucking dumbass that's seriously right jesus yeah i'm uh if you're

02:57:19.200 talking about like taking a skin cell and putting in an enucleated an emptied um egg and putting in

02:57:25.380 the genetic code and developing that into an embryo in that case yes it would still be an embryo and

02:57:28.700 still be a life and still has personhood we have doc vanables here an argument can be made that

02:57:34.360 consciousness is present at the genetic level as evidenced by transgenerational inheritance of

02:57:39.480 memories and learned tasks as well as epigenetic expression so consciousness may well be present

02:57:44.640 at the time of conception come on down and join the table might as well might as well uh throw that

02:57:49.900 that i mean that definition of consciousness honestly sounds more convincing to me than

02:57:53.620 that would mean dead people have consciousness too because all their dna no because a dead person

02:57:57.600 is not going to grow but they still put the dna so they're those intergenerational inherited

02:58:00.900 memories are still no because a dead person but that doesn't solely define what makes a human life

02:58:05.700 that's an aspect of a human life according to that oh the gene the memory in your genes the

02:58:09.340 memory that that is an aspect that that human life is still living and developing is that what

02:58:13.540 we're what's destiny a dead person is dead so that's the difference i totally agree and a not

02:58:17.680 yet alive person is not yet alive and consciously absolutely but keep bringing up that conscious

02:58:22.720 you just said alive you keep conflating alive and you keep agreeing with us when we call you on it

02:58:28.400 that a human being is alive in the womb right what even before consciousness develops you agree that

02:58:35.020 human being in the womb is alive because you keep saying before it's alive you keep saying this

02:58:39.200 okay i'm not answering you so just for the audience to understand the tactics right

02:58:42.280 never in this debate do either of these people think that i think that whatever exists before

02:58:46.540 20 weeks is dead bringing up that alive thing is trying to win using etymology you're trying to

02:58:50.980 win using a word you're just not alive we're using the language you're using yeah because when i'm

02:58:54.180 saying not alive you know what i mean is no i don't know what you mean okay so then you genuinely

02:58:58.240 think when i said that let me hear you say that i have many people when i said that i think that a

02:59:01.360 fetus is dead no i think that i think that what do you think i'm saying i think that when you

02:59:06.320 accidentally reference the pre-conscious human as a living human i think and then you kind of

02:59:15.160 correct yourself and say it's not that's not what i mean meaning you just call a person a living human

02:59:19.140 but then you also call the embryo pre-consciousness a living human and use the same terminology

02:59:23.160 you're accidentally showing the point that your your arbitrary measure of consciousness

02:59:29.560 is not a good definition for when a human life begins okay so that that's why we're we get stuck

02:59:35.540 on that point for you what's actually happening is you either totally don't understand my argument

02:59:39.280 which is strange because i repeat like eight times or you understand the absurdity of your argument so

02:59:43.200 the goal is to try to catch on like what do you mean you say human what do you mean you say child

02:59:46.440 what do you mean you say fetus what do you mean you say life the definition i've given i'll say one more

02:59:49.460 time for no point that like i define somebody as having personhood um as being a person at 20 to

02:59:54.980 24 weeks in the conscious experience develops if i say that like oh it's not alive yet i'm clearly

02:59:58.780 don't mean that it's dead lump of cells that becomes alive what i mean in terms of like having the life

03:00:03.140 of the person we're talking about i might misspeak because we all use these words like differently

03:00:06.060 sometimes but i very clearly syntactically and semantically defined exactly what i mean if i use

03:00:10.760 one word in place of another you should still understand what i'm meaning unless you're so desperate to

03:00:13.860 try to win on like a word technicality because you understand you've lost the logic of anything

03:00:17.740 else you're trying to argue that is that is what is happening our position is 100 you understand

03:00:21.720 you understand that that's what's happening correct i think you're the one who has to create

03:00:25.020 no that's why i've never tried to call you out or catch up like oh but you said this word so that

03:00:28.680 means you're wrong i've never done that in this conversation because words matter and we're

03:00:31.540 talking about this is about words matter it's trying to catch me like a technicality in a word

03:00:35.580 because you understand logically you're talking about whether or not human beings should be able to

03:00:38.500 live or die they actually matter and what you're harboring destiny is innate bias and privilege

03:00:45.320 against children who are 20 younger than 20 weeks in the womb and so you keep using dehumanizing

03:00:51.520 terms or saying it's not alive and then you're like oh wait i meant it was alive but i just said

03:00:55.600 it wasn't alive well which one is i think part of is as lila was referring to it's kind of written

03:01:00.840 on the human heart and as someone who has a son yourself and you've seen ultrasounds we all know

03:01:06.120 what is inside of a mother is a human being and it is alive and it is unique and it is precious

03:01:12.460 we don't always like to admit that because that human being could be highly inconvenient to us

03:01:17.920 children are highly inconvenient but absolutely children can be inconvenient to some people

03:01:22.580 but what you're harboring is this privilege and bias against the child before a child turns

03:01:28.940 well it's 20 it's developmental discrimination or age discrimination gotcha and i'll reiterate my

03:01:32.820 point i am biased i'm biased against beings that do not exhibit consciousness or have the ability to

03:01:37.520 exhibit consciousness unless they're in a coma that's how you decide somebody is dead once somebody

03:01:40.740 said i'm just gonna keep you can cut us eventually but i'm not gonna let her ramble for like five

03:01:43.940 minutes and then not repeat my argument because she's just repeating her argument so i'll just

03:01:46.580 restate mine uh i am i am i do i do discriminate against things that don't have a conscious experience

03:01:50.440 because there's nobody being harmed when you abort something that's 10 weeks old you can't speak of

03:01:53.640 a person that is being harmed there's a clump of cells and it's gone just like when you stab a corpse

03:01:57.920 there is no person there that's being harmed because conscious experience that's let's that is wrong

03:02:01.800 because the corpse is dead and the human being in the womb is alive and the corpse is dead because

03:02:06.360 the corpse is dead their body is no longer exhibiting a conscious experience no their body is no

03:02:13.140 longer working in a coordinated fashion so i think it's very insincere for you to continue to say

03:02:19.300 that the 19 week child in the womb is the same as a dead human being because we all know in this room

03:02:26.640 that the 19 a week 19 week child in the womb is not like a corpse but you want to keep saying that

03:02:33.780 because it helps you justify your position that abortion should be legal up to 20 weeks because

03:02:39.400 you have to take that discriminatory view based on age based on development in order to justify

03:02:45.380 and you can use like all the loaded words but you're right destiny your position is correct you

03:02:49.480 believe that children up to 20 weeks can be killed and you don't give a shit about them so

03:02:54.540 congratulations you've been you have been philosophically consistent with your beliefs what

03:02:59.900 i'm telling you what you're telling me is that you think an 11 year old child is raped and that

03:03:04.660 person should be forced to carry that child to term because otherwise it would be immoral to abort a

03:03:08.980 clump of cells that don't even have what i'm saying is your position is excuse me what i'm saying is

03:03:15.560 your position is reckless it creates varying degrees of personhood which i have said over and over

03:03:21.960 again leads to awful things throughout all of human history and can't hold up when medical technology

03:03:28.620 will prove you wrong as i proved you wrong multiple times about a child who can feel pain

03:03:32.620 at 12 and a half weeks toddlers and twins sorry twins who can actually interact with each other at 14

03:03:39.380 weeks okay and i'm going to go with a position that doesn't compel you are i'm going to go in a

03:03:43.440 position that doesn't compel 11 year old girls to forcibly be carrying a child that's my

03:03:48.340 question for destiny yeah so if consciousness is everything to you and anything you do before a

03:03:54.100 child is conscious or a human is conscious in the womb is totally fine would it be morally acceptable

03:03:59.040 for somebody to intentionally maybe that was like some fetish they had or something intentionally get

03:04:04.580 pregnant and this has actually happened horribly intentionally get pregnant to intentionally get

03:04:09.160 abortions but they're doing the abortions at 19 weeks so it's a fully formed embryo can

03:04:12.800 go for it knock yourself out and you're and you're okay if that person gets gets abortion after

03:04:17.900 abortion totally morally yep it's totally morally acceptable go for it yeah i am thank you can be

03:04:22.760 killed so i could have 30 abortions 30 you could have 35 on 19 week old unlimited abortions however

03:04:28.120 many your body can produce completely morally yeah 100 okay well it is it is a consistent well let's

03:04:32.980 let's try to get through some of these chats we are uh i personally think the arresting the 11 year

03:04:37.620 old for murder for getting an abortion i've been getting raped by a dad i think that's horrific but

03:04:40.660 well that's we all have now you're bringing up other arguments you said it's consciousness

03:04:45.180 what do you mean was your argument against abortion he would actually arrest the 11 year old he said

03:04:50.300 if the abortion was past 20 i would past 20 weeks but in my world she would have the opportunity to

03:04:55.800 at least get examined but in the real world typically you don't find out when you're a rape survivor

03:04:59.900 if i have a very young girl who probably is on not having regular menstruation you usually don't

03:05:04.640 know you're pregnant until well into the second trimester maybe for rape survivors we should have

03:05:07.260 better support in society for them like immediately screening for pregnancies and stuff well that's

03:05:10.640 you don't know they don't know they typically they're the fact that they're raped isn't

03:05:13.540 known they don't share that they're not like calling the police right away they're 11 years old

03:05:17.500 well they better make it known then i don't know you have to figure out some way to do it what do

03:05:20.360 you are you trying to change my whole position because the system that exists as is like sometimes

03:05:24.000 an 11 year old might be forced care of child determined they don't have the ability to get

03:05:26.380 external help for their actual child that doesn't mean you should be able to murder the baby

03:05:28.340 i think well i'm i'm glad you're against murdering i try to be that's like my position i'm the most

03:05:33.420 proud of yes i am very anti-child murdering yeah hold on let me just i just got to come in i do just have to come

03:05:38.480 in let's let's try to get through these chats just because we are running a little bit late

03:05:41.600 here and then we're gonna have to wrap up here pretty soon so okay let's try to just get through

03:05:45.340 these chats if you if you do want to say anything to uh in response i just ask you keep it brief

03:05:50.240 that way we can just get through all of these all right we have matt l here thank you for the 49

03:05:54.540 dollar soup chat appreciate it man better come example the patient had a traumatic uh brain injury

03:05:59.800 where if left to its own device its its own its own devices will heal in approximately nine months

03:06:06.200 to a point of regaining consciousness as you have defined it would termination of this human be

03:06:10.740 acceptable i believe this is no no okay all right why is that the case then for a child was a

03:06:16.980 conscious experience why still the capacity to play it there's some healing process and then it will

03:06:20.640 deplete again back and forth on this brief it's okay we went through it there's no answer for why

03:06:24.880 the answer is the child has not had a conscious experience but there's no logical reason why that is

03:06:28.480 logical it didn't exist but why does that provide not having the moral i am steven when i go to sleep

03:06:33.980 there was a steven and there will be a steven if i have a trend of danger there was you there will

03:06:36.960 be a steven when i was an embryo there was never a steven to speak of destiny you've said that many

03:06:40.440 many times i have the point that we have said is within weeks the child within weeks so it hasn't

03:06:45.420 yet but whether it's five seconds or five years but why does that matter because it's not there yet

03:06:49.920 but the child is there it just hasn't developed it's not there yet whether we five years five

03:06:55.220 seconds five millennia beforehand it's not there and you're also just denying that children

03:06:58.620 which we know scientifically actually have rem cycle sleep and i don't even first of all i don't even

03:07:03.520 know that i don't even believe that i doubt we even know that okay all right we have uh we have

03:07:08.500 fernando marrero jr hey thank you man he says whatever thank you man appreciate it title there

03:07:13.620 you go title drop yo rams thank you for the canadian 69 appreciate it the youngest age of fetus

03:07:18.180 medically proven to have survived outside the mother with medical support should certainly be

03:07:23.180 considered human okay rams thank you uh we have vanessa tam thank you for the canadian 15 oh interesting

03:07:28.460 people are saying that the rem cycle sleep for fetuses is around 23 weeks which would actually be

03:07:33.100 consistent with what i think that conscious experience we have a vanessa tam here birthing

03:07:37.240 the baby fetus is the only way it's coming out of the mom so why not help the pregnant mom during

03:07:41.440 pregnancy and she can birth the baby live and adopted versus dead and dismembered well there's

03:07:46.420 this whole thing called yeah so you guys that's exactly what we do you probably know a little bit

03:07:50.980 about this okay there's this thing called pregnancy okay that's there's a whole nine month process

03:07:55.380 between actually getting pregnant it's called pregnancy oh thank you for that there's a whole period in

03:07:59.960 there that sucks to deal with um varying levels of suckiness but yeah there's probably a good six

03:08:04.400 seven months there of time that can be saved and a whole bunch of like irrevocable changes to the

03:08:08.620 human body whatever you could probably avoid if you don't go through that whole period but yeah

03:08:11.480 destiny death is defined as the complete and irreversible cessation of brain activity

03:08:15.880 sure that's not the same to say that if that's the definition of death if that's the definition of

03:08:21.540 death a child weeks before consciousness at 20 to 24 weeks in the womb doesn't have that

03:08:28.360 definition of death it's not doesn't even have the brain activity but it doesn't have irreversible

03:08:32.100 and it doesn't have a sensation of brain activity that will never come back it's going to develop

03:08:36.220 its brain going to develop i agree a child has brain will develop and once it develops it i'm

03:08:40.020 going to care a whole lot about it do you see that your even your definition of well i'm defining

03:08:43.260 it the same way that death is defined they're not the same do you see that no you don't see that

03:08:47.900 you can have a definition of going broke is when you lose all of your money but guess what you're

03:08:52.160 also broke if you don't have any money you don't get any money he has a new definition of death death is what

03:08:55.800 he's saying he's made his own definition of death what is your definition just for this uh the

03:08:59.600 whatever one helps me win the debate can you hold up your doodles do you acknowledge that it's

03:09:05.000 different if someone is dead and all their brain activity has ceased and will not come back

03:09:10.160 versus a child in the womb an embryo in the womb who is who has the potential and it actually has the

03:09:16.200 capacity for brain activity in time okay do you see do you see the difference i know there's a

03:09:22.020 difference but this difference is not relevant the point that's the whole debate though destiny

03:09:25.840 it's not the point you're saying it's morally okay to kill the child that has the capacity for brain

03:09:29.620 okay who is being harmed when you abort a 16 week old fetus hold on while you're destroying that 16

03:09:36.680 week old here let's just try to get through these chats if you want to bring it up at the end we'll

03:09:39.900 try all right we have uh real life outdoors hey thank you dest do you think there's a

03:09:44.680 phil philosophical significant i think that's what you do you think there is a philosophical

03:09:49.620 significance in non-existence existence and cessation of existence why do you feel humans

03:09:53.320 put so much importance on endangered eagle eggs than human fetuses junior question do you feel

03:09:57.200 it's purely a population issue a lot going on there um quick responses to these uh super

03:10:03.000 giants yeah there's a difference between all of these but there is no quick response that is

03:10:06.440 super complicated um why do we care about endangered eagle eggs uh we probably feel some

03:10:09.900 obligation to save like unique unique animals or some things in environments and that's why we're

03:10:13.460 obsessed with like pandas and shit i don't know it's necessarily logical or reasonable but i mean

03:10:16.540 well and i think there's anything wrong you know it's smashing bald eagle eggs have you done

03:10:22.920 anything morally wrong or is it doesn't matter because it's not really alive doesn't have

03:10:25.780 consciousness well i'm a i fucking eat meat why would i care about smashing eagle eggs i think the

03:10:30.400 point i eat chicken eggs right is um you know why do we maybe maybe the point of the questioner is why

03:10:36.860 do we not care about aborting children in the womb but we care about eagle eggs and it's true it's a

03:10:41.120 good point it's a very good point because there are many you know and i i'm i'm a conservationist i

03:10:46.440 believe in protecting the environment that there are forces even environmentalism that say that

03:10:50.340 we should protect endangered species but we shouldn't protect human lives so there that is a

03:10:55.580 a huge i think it's not logical and it's not correct all right we have it oh whoops get some

03:11:01.220 help didn't mean for that oh my this is my favorite guy destiny there is no point in using analogies

03:11:05.740 when there are hardcore facts about this discussion also using a range for consciousness comes down

03:11:10.960 being a theory which is a synonym for assumption therefore it's not concrete trash debater i have

03:11:16.980 another one here for you i mean i agree it doesn't make logical sense it's not consistent um not like

03:11:21.520 a one-celled organism being a thinking feeling being no one said it was pain is considered an

03:11:25.940 immediate conscious sensation and a toddler can't try to bring that up the ladies are correct and

03:11:30.920 destiny is wrong yet again he talks fast and it sounds good but perhaps he should use words

03:11:35.120 correctly do you agree with some research do you agree with you're welcome for the advice

03:11:38.660 i agree with everything is considered an immediate conscious sensation do you agree with that or do

03:11:42.880 you think that's wrong no i don't think i necessarily agree with that just disagree with science thank

03:11:46.680 you no banuga did you because that's actually the pre-conscious child by your definition of

03:11:51.700 conscious anyway does react to stimuli and can feel pain i'm pretty sure like amoeba can feel but

03:11:56.000 they're not an amoeba they're a human who can't feel pain there's a difference are they so conscious

03:12:00.500 probably because i'm not using feeling pain is my description we just saw that the pain is

03:12:06.640 definitely oh fuck well the donator said it i guess i'm i don't know i'd have to think about

03:12:09.620 that one too well we still haven't really gotten down to that exact definition of consciousness

03:12:13.000 because it's still connected to i can't exactly define what consciousness is fuck me i guess i

03:12:16.840 would think of as arguing i didn't know the burden of me was the hardest question of all of human

03:12:21.300 biology i think i would have it i would have that definition like memorized you don't even have

03:12:25.400 the definition for puberty and you seem to tell me that you're arguing whether or not human

03:12:29.200 beings should be killed violently ended in the womb whether they should have the right to live

03:12:33.800 their body should be turned into prisons where they have to carry something there we go so

03:12:37.580 11 year olds it's not about consciousness you're going pregnant raped 11 year olds oh my god

03:12:42.680 pregnant let's read some more super chats here we have we have tactical lupus oh thank you for

03:12:49.700 the 50 uh excuse me rambling about nothing on the loop the whole podcast yikes bad faith the whole

03:12:53.860 time even the girl you're with is annoyed they haven't heard anything destiny has said bro one on

03:12:58.280 the house analogy parts aren't a whole okay embryo is a picture too all right what an absolutely base

03:13:05.160 dono guy okay ayush chooksy if you take out fetus at any point during pregnancy and it can survive it

03:13:11.240 would be wrong to take its life that said at any point the fetus is body part of female and they

03:13:17.220 should have the right over it and should be allowed to make choices based on it ayush thank you for the

03:13:22.520 uh super chat we have dank naked here with the 50 all i'm saying is when i put some cake batter into

03:13:27.320 an oven and if someone pulled said cake batter out and spilled it onto the floor i'd exclaim what

03:13:31.600 are you doing to my cake not what are you doing to my cake batter oh my oh my goodness destiny

03:13:38.840 someone's a thinker okay first of all that the argument is still defeating cake batter on a

03:13:44.340 counter would not be a cake a cake is a thing true all right we have we have dr ocho here still a human

03:13:50.840 just like a toddler uh dr ocho with the uh super chat thank you man kristen is incorrect being generous

03:13:56.860 by not saying lying uh rem sleep rem sleep doesn't happen in the womb until 28 weeks okay according

03:14:03.340 there was another study i saw today it said 23 weeks i saw another study said 18 weeks okay uh vexed

03:14:09.180 liberal thank you for the big uh 200 dollar wow huge all human cells contain the blueprints for an

03:14:16.240 entire human genome universality is a unique human we don't consider yes what do you mean no they don't

03:14:22.800 we don't we don't consider skin cells to have the parts for consciousness nor do we give them more

03:14:26.100 consideration wait what do you mean that's right because a skin cell has your blueprints has your

03:14:31.400 dna when you say your who is you what does that mean if you like me what is me yeah but who is me

03:14:36.760 when you say me come off onto the table disgusting yeah if i rip my arm off and i put it on the table

03:14:41.340 is that me is the arm me have your dna and they're a part of you yeah yeah but like let's say i rip my

03:14:46.620 arm off and i put my arm over there is that arm me it's a part of you well it's no longer a part of

03:14:51.300 me so it's this is me and the arm is not me right and single cell destiny was still living human

03:14:56.700 being you were a whole arm even as an embryo you were the skin cells that flake off you are not

03:15:01.720 unique whole human what are my head flaked off me would that be me or would the body be me

03:15:05.040 that's why i'm glad you're not interesting okay we have dank naked here do you think my head is

03:15:08.980 gonna fly off my body uh destiny asking the most bad faith question the toddlers will have a higher

03:15:13.820 ability to live than the embryos wow as humans you're programmed to protect your young of course

03:15:18.000 you'll feel a urge to protect toddlers over embryos doesn't mean those embryos aren't alive we have

03:15:23.740 perfectly stated correct thank you uh i believe that was bryce by the way with this super chat thank

03:15:27.980 you man good to see you in the chat yo angel cardina cardenas thank you for the uh 999 thank you i

03:15:33.880 can't believe the uh okay talk down to destiny when she thinks a seed is the same as a tree they

03:15:40.260 ask a hundred questions and when destiny tries to answer one they ask a hundred more as he's

03:15:45.220 answering answering then get mad because somehow he's interrupting okay uh thank you for repping me

03:15:51.860 okay um rams merci beaucoup for the canadian 69 thank you for the soup chat man unfortunately the only

03:15:58.760 way with evidence-based medicine to find out what the youngest fetus age we are able to save is is to

03:16:04.280 extract fetuses and and try to keep them alive in large study unfortunately i wouldn't even do that

03:16:10.260 to animals that would be immoral research okay and then we have none yeah business thank man for the

03:16:16.440 soup chat if it doesn't exist destiny then why the need to abort it you make no sense that's a fair

03:16:22.000 point true that is such a good point because i thought it was like nothing and then all of it just pops

03:16:25.800 into existence fuck me that was a really good that was my question about the debate over you've lost

03:16:30.380 you've seen i didn't even consider that um mike davis thank you man good to see you back in the

03:16:34.440 chat man wait is this the mike it is the mike davis um do we have his photo somewhere around here

03:16:39.360 destiny misfit weirdo is a really slow brain making an argument about consciousness if we were to ever

03:16:44.500 meet i'd knock him unconscious straight into airplane mode would it be cool to kill him then

03:16:48.800 well wow can i arrange in the room would say 100 no yeah should we arrange destiny's consciousness

03:16:56.540 ability for consciousness or development of consciousness does not equal his value or

03:17:00.840 personal you're still a person if you're a human you're a person destiny would you accept a boxing

03:17:06.140 match with mike davis uh well it depends on the environment we're in like if he's got like those

03:17:11.420 non-slip shoes and he's fighting in the native like wendy's environment that he's used to inhabiting i might

03:17:15.620 lose that one i'm not sure i'd have to think about it you know okay fair enough we have the lifeline

03:17:19.560 apologetic say thank you man for the soup chat i really appreciate it uh destiny since you hold

03:17:23.620 there is no consciousness at conception personhood do you believe a woman should be able to drink and

03:17:28.020 smoke from the earliest point of pregnancy if she doesn't get an abortion um i would say no because

03:17:33.760 you're committing harm to a future person whoa so is it committing harm to a future person to dismember

03:17:40.840 them at 19 weeks no because you're preventing that future person from existing okay nice try

03:17:47.420 i actually don't like how you thought i actually don't have to say anything to that because you

03:17:51.460 people they think that they get like catchphrase like you just have you considered that like oh

03:17:55.060 you totally messed up but hold on destiny they just they do exist in order to abort them something

03:17:59.580 exists what something but not the person that's the whole point of the entire argument the conscious

03:18:03.620 race doesn't exist yet yes that is correct but they're going to be con but you're saying that person

03:18:07.400 the six week old child in the womb when the mother's drinking and doing drugs doesn't which

03:18:14.340 we have been arguing this entire evening has the capacity to form consciousness which is your you

03:18:19.540 know baseline the unethical part isn't that you're harming the six week old the unethical part is

03:18:24.160 you're harming the how do you know how do you how do you know that the child isn't going to be

03:18:27.860 aborted at 19 weeks maybe the mom decides well if you plan on aborting it then it's not unethical

03:18:31.500 then you can do whatever you want yes based as many trips down the stairs as you find necessary as

03:18:35.760 long as you know you're getting the abortion you can kill a human and that's moral but you can't

03:18:40.220 drink and potentially give the child fetal alcohol syndrome or make the child be born with a drug

03:18:44.740 dependency that's immoral when am i saying you're okay to kill humans at 19 weeks and six days before

03:18:52.320 the country experience you can avoid that language okay well no because you can end the life of a

03:18:57.780 human being yeah which is a unique genetic human being because i don't care about any of that shit yeah so

03:19:02.620 you can end that life that is not immoral but it is immoral at 19 weeks to smoke crack cocaine

03:19:10.740 yes because you're harming the future person like you're they're going to be about and then you're

03:19:15.280 going to harm them right but they are that person they're not that person yet if i go on top of this

03:19:19.900 building you just defeated yourself like this is i like how you think i've never answered this before

03:19:23.640 if i go on top of a building and i put a piano there okay and i go to push that piano off the building

03:19:29.040 let's say that i push it off onto somebody immediately that would be unethical right

03:19:32.420 well what if i set a timer to push this off in five minutes and then i walk away right um and

03:19:38.040 i know a person's gonna be walking by in five minutes well is it ethical because i'm not harming

03:19:41.620 anybody right at the point in time hold on the unethical part is that in five minutes a person

03:19:46.060 will be there so i'm setting up a scenario where in the future somebody's going to be caused by my

03:19:50.760 actions they're gonna be caused harm by my actions that's the unethical part the unethical part

03:19:54.280 isn't me putting the piano there or putting a contraption there and then the unethical part

03:19:58.240 is setting a future person up for harm so for a fetus for a fetus at six weeks old you want to

03:20:02.340 smoke and drink and do all that that's fine if you get an abortion that's whatever but if you do

03:20:05.100 that and then you carry that child to term or if you intend to carry that child to term you're

03:20:07.780 harming that future person right and i think that we totally disagree that consciousness doesn't

03:20:11.540 define a human that's fine so obviously unconscious and still a human you can have less

03:20:14.760 consciousness we went through all of that yeah uh just one thing was was there something

03:20:20.100 point though you said a toddler is a little bit less of a person than a yeah but there's still a

03:20:23.940 binary of do you have consciousness or not once you have it you can talk about degrees of consciousness

03:20:27.100 and that binary i think is where the illogic comes in there's no there's no reason there's no reason

03:20:31.600 for why a child that's going to that has the capacity for consciousness and just needs time to

03:20:35.320 develop it why you should discriminate hold on you can say that there's no reason but it's not

03:20:38.300 illogical there's a binary of are you an nfl player or not however people that are there could

03:20:42.180 be people that are better nfl players than other nfl players but there could still be the binary of if

03:20:45.200 you are you are illogical is to draw the arbitrary line it's not arbitrary at all it's very concise

03:20:49.140 when conscious experience happens you're not precise because you can't define it it's not

03:20:53.500 precise because you can't define a particular point of time it's called a continuum fallacy look it up

03:20:55.920 it's an arbitrary line to use that for it's not arbitrary what does arbitrary mean to determine

03:21:01.600 the moral value if you want to say it's arbitrary to determine moral value just like i can agree with

03:21:05.820 you i can agree with you i can agree with you i can agree with you i can agree with you i can agree

03:21:09.980 with you i can agree with you more so than a pre-born keep saying that i was trying to finish my

03:21:15.900 point i can agree with you that it's arbitrary but the uh but the point is everything is arbitrary

03:21:20.480 if you're gonna get that fundamental a genetic unique genetic code is arbitrary a unique zygote

03:21:24.320 is arbitrary unique fetus arbitrary like it's all arbitrary if you go really really really

03:21:27.240 fundamental but we're not here to do like solve ethics we pick when life begins yes and i pick

03:21:31.680 when life begins based on when i think life ends because i think that's about what we're worried

03:21:34.220 about protecting what are we protecting when we talk about human life it's not a body it's not a

03:21:37.600 cell it's not a heartbeat we're protecting their conscious experience that's about what we're here let's

03:21:40.640 we'll come back to that let's come back to that when you there's there's i'm like sick of having

03:21:46.700 to re-say the same things over and over again let's get through the super chat all across the

03:21:51.080 table we're gonna all projectile vomit into each other we're gonna get through the we're gonna get

03:21:54.620 through the chat let's go get through we're gonna get through the chat control over the conversation

03:21:58.260 apparently just a point of two chatters jennifer and jonathan said that i've missed

03:22:04.300 their super chats jennifer um i maybe we're coming up on it but i don't i don't see any of your super

03:22:13.280 chats i don't know but um uh something about did we do one related to the khmer rouge nope no i don't

03:22:20.720 i thought i saw something but wow so you just fucking ripped that person off well maybe my guys

03:22:26.940 accidentally unclicked it about harming babies what's that it was something about harming babies

03:22:33.980 was it under the threshold in any case um okay so let me let me do this one we have one here from

03:22:38.860 uh polarized i'm not going to pull it up but he's he has a question for kristin uh it's a very simple

03:22:44.660 question if m if an embryo is a human being for you kristin oh i thought is there more to the

03:22:52.800 question or that's it is just it depends on what type of embryo it is that's a human embryo a human

03:22:58.580 being yeah if it's a human embryo it's certainly a human being somebody save it uh nick can you

03:23:05.320 keep it center keep it center oh sorry rip welcome to the whatever studio okay let me get through

03:23:12.780 these soup chats while nick fixes that we have uh dank naked here destiny there's a difference between

03:23:16.860 a dead body and a fetus developing a brain how bad faith are you right now the fetus is going to

03:23:22.040 develop a brain a dead person is dead we've said that like i don't know 30 times i'm just too dumb to

03:23:26.400 understand that point i just it's not going to understand that because it would defeat my whole

03:23:29.800 like it's inconvenient it's an inconvenient fact for me it would obliterate me you know that i do

03:23:34.700 this is like the head of the exodia that just obliterate obliviates my whole argument all right we

03:23:39.320 have uh devin cena here thank you for the 50 nazis murdered disabled children because of their

03:23:44.160 impacted consciousness mental faculties was that okay destiny yeah i think mental disability is the

03:23:49.160 exact same thing as having no conscious experience at all that's what they said so i believe that

03:23:52.200 are they being sarcastic disability do you think the nazis are justified in murdering children

03:23:57.440 please explain um well probably the ones where your brain isn't even really working i would say

03:24:02.940 it's probably justified like in the instance of terry schiavo that was a pretty terrible statement

03:24:07.520 you just said that the nazis were justified in murdering disabled children i don't think the nazis

03:24:11.760 were trying to kill people they weren't having conscious experience i think they were trying to

03:24:14.200 murder people because they were trying to get rid of like the unclean from society i think it was a bit

03:24:17.640 different but you just said okay so if a woman has an abortion at 19 weeks for a eugenic reason

03:24:23.560 because of the the skin color of the baby because she oh that could be unethical sure yeah that would

03:24:28.600 be unethical i thought wasn't a thing earlier it wasn't unethical for a woman to get pregnant as a

03:24:32.940 sexual fetish and continue to have abortions at 19 weeks because the 19 week old baby is not a baby

03:24:36.720 and not a human not a person so why would it be unethical to kill a 19 week old who be based for a

03:24:42.280 racist reason i don't know if it's unethical to practice a sexual fetish it might be unethical to design

03:24:46.280 society with a racial vision in mind so it is wrong to kill at 19 weeks for a race-based reason

03:24:51.400 uh i don't know if i care about killing the thing i'm thinking more of the designing of a society

03:24:55.700 based on race but you just said that lila asked you is it wrong to kill a 19 week old fetus a child

03:25:01.280 in the womb you're asking me is if something is wrong or gender we could ask about gender because

03:25:05.340 that happens i think you're acknowledging that you're killing though is what you're acknowledging

03:25:08.440 no you don't think it's let me explain okay please do you're trying to ask me is it wrong

03:25:13.080 to practice eugenics and i'm saying in general i would say that probably eugenics is wrong whoa

03:25:18.480 whoa whoa whoa i didn't ask that actually is it wrong to practice eugenics on a 19 week old before

03:25:22.160 consciousness hold on but that's the issue i don't care it's always wrong to practice eugenics even

03:25:26.780 on a 19 week old pre-consciousness on anything it's probably wrong pre-consciousness has no

03:25:30.760 moral value why would it why is it possible to even be racist against that 19 week old i don't say

03:25:35.620 being racist 19 year old i say practicing eugenics i don't know if there has to be why would it even

03:25:38.640 be eugenics to kill the 19 week old i would say it would probably be unethical if you were to say

03:25:43.360 that people should only breed with people of their own race that that form of practicing eugenics

03:25:47.040 is unethical even though you're not killing anything at all hold on i know you're okay

03:25:50.460 i'm just asking you to answer i don't know if i can the thing is i can't i can explain every part

03:25:55.420 of this no no no it's not the problem is i can't explain anything about getting cut off okay

03:25:58.840 you're asking me okay go ahead you're asking the question is is it unethical to uh is it unethical

03:26:05.060 to kill a 19 week old thing by virtue of doing it because of a eugenics and what i'm saying is

03:26:09.880 practicing eugenics is unethical in your mind you're transferring the idea that i'm saying oh

03:26:13.920 you think it's unethical to practice eugenics by killing a 19 week old you must think it's

03:26:17.440 unethical then because you're killing the 19 year old no killing the 19 year old or the 19 uh week

03:26:21.380 old has nothing to do with whatsoever it's the practice of eugenics whether it's 19 weeks old or

03:26:25.320 21 weeks old i would say both are wrong however the additional thing would be that killing the 21

03:26:29.580 week old would also be murdering a child and practicing eugenics killing the 19 uh the 19 week old

03:26:34.720 would be unethical because you're practicing eugenics but not because you're killing some

03:26:37.340 baby but destiny by virtue of your argument you cannot practice eugenics on a 19 year old because

03:26:43.640 they're not a person yet do you think that okay here's a question that's your arm hold on do you

03:26:47.500 think it's eugenics to sterilize can you answer can you answer no because that's not i don't think

03:26:51.340 that's what eugenics means okay what let's define then eugenics is i'm doing in this scenario it's a

03:26:57.460 racially motivated act of of of oppression violence against this 19 year old 19 week old fetus

03:27:04.460 okay that is pre-conscious so it's not a person in your book okay i don't know i don't know what

03:27:08.040 that definition of eugenics is my understanding of genetics well would that be wrong what i what i

03:27:12.140 just said in that hypothetical would that be wrong practicing eugenics in my mind for racial visions

03:27:16.420 is wrong a 19 week old pre-conscious fetus for racist racist reasons yeah but not because you're

03:27:22.260 killing the fetus but because you're practicing eugenics but why is it practicing eugenics if it's not

03:27:26.500 killing a person because we have different definitions of what eugenics means that's why i just

03:27:29.920 want to just go back and define eugenics my understanding is genetics or i'm sorry my

03:27:33.600 understanding is um eugenics is when you have a like a societal breeding plan so for instance this

03:27:40.240 could be a practice of eugenics is saying black people are not allowed to have children it doesn't

03:27:45.640 mean you have to have abortions it doesn't mean you have to kill anything right okay so if we're

03:27:49.120 saying that that is illegal we're saying that's eugenics telling people who can or can't have kids

03:27:55.260 eugenics then i would say it's unethical to practice eugenics for racial vision of mine even

03:27:59.080 if that means aborting a nine-week-old even if that means having an abortion of a five-week-old

03:28:03.540 but it's not that's not wrong because you're killing a five-year-old it's wrong because you're

03:28:07.120 practicing eugenics but eugenics isn't defined by having an abortion of a human living being of a

03:28:12.060 person a moral quality on this unconscious fetus no i'm not i'm putting the moral qualities on the

03:28:17.140 practice of eugenics but you're only saying that eugenics is bad because it's it's ending the life of

03:28:21.680 this child for eugenics reasons for this human right in front of all of us but god listen to us

03:28:27.120 i said that eugenics was designing socially in like socially deciding who can or cannot have children

03:28:32.860 and now you're telling me you said eugenics was about killing a baby i never said destiny you're

03:28:36.660 saying it would be wrong to kill a nine-week-old for race-based reasons no is that correct or yes

03:28:41.700 correct yes okay but then on the same hand you're saying that that nine-week-old is not a person

03:28:46.760 and doesn't have moral status correct yes okay the wrong that's being committed isn't a wrong

03:28:52.280 the wrong that's being committed isn't the wrong against the nine-week child the wrong being

03:28:56.060 committed is the social wrong of eugenics so it's just the intention of the thing no it's the

03:29:00.080 because killing them has not the intention of killing a baby it's the intention of eugenics so

03:29:04.220 they get moral value hold on they get moral value if they are they all of a sudden get moral

03:29:09.260 value if they're being killed for racist reasons but there be if they're being killed for any

03:29:12.560 moral value i wouldn't punish the person for murder i wouldn't push for us for having

03:29:15.640 What did they do wrong if it's just a thing?

03:29:18.900 What are you doing wrong if you tell black people not to have children?

03:29:21.480 What's the wrong thing?

03:29:22.220 Nobody's being harmed.

03:29:23.040 If a 19-week-old child in the womb is not a person and it's just a thing

03:29:27.620 and it has absolutely no value, I understand what you're saying is that

03:29:32.060 because you don't think that a human has value and isn't a person

03:29:36.700 until they have consciousness.

03:29:38.560 But what are they actually doing?

03:29:40.300 They're not actually doing anything.

03:29:41.660 They're not even practicing eugenics because there's nothing there to practice.

03:29:45.640 You said that it's a non-person, it's not a thing.

03:29:50.340 If you say only white people should breed with white people,

03:29:52.320 is that practicing eugenics even if you haven't had any kids yet?

03:29:55.740 You're not defining what that nine-week-old thing is then.

03:30:03.500 It doesn't matter what it is.

03:30:04.560 It does because you're saying it's wrong to kill it.

03:30:06.120 So what is it?

03:30:06.660 I'm not saying it's wrong to kill it.

03:30:07.800 I'm saying it's wrong to practice eugenics.

03:30:09.020 You're saying it's wrong to kill it for eugenic reasons.

03:30:11.720 Yes.

03:30:12.000 So explain what it is.

03:30:13.620 Practicing eugenics is-

03:30:14.560 Can you practice eugenics on things like cars?

03:30:17.780 What do you practice eugenics on?

03:30:18.660 Theoretically, you could.

03:30:19.460 Sure.

03:30:19.820 Can you practice eugenics on refrigerators?

03:30:22.000 Theoretically, you could.

03:30:22.720 Sure.

03:30:23.460 Let's say that I find out that a certain refrigerator is-

03:30:25.320 No, because refrigerators and cars can't reproduce.

03:30:26.780 You've already said-

03:30:27.460 I'm sorry.

03:30:27.700 Were you going to let me answer the hypothetical?

03:30:29.100 We're just going to keep rambling like you do.

03:30:30.400 Okay, my bad.

03:30:31.120 No, I'm not kidding.

03:30:31.620 You said what the definition of eugenics was.

03:30:33.820 Okay.

03:30:34.140 Here, let's do a couple super chats here.

03:30:35.920 Let's say that I found out there was a car that was owned 99% by black people, and let's

03:30:39.240 say that I armed that car with an ability to stab you in the balls to make sure you're

03:30:41.840 going to have kids.

03:30:42.440 Would you argue that that's the balls?

03:30:43.600 Stab in the balls.

03:30:44.260 Stab in the balls.

03:30:45.020 It's Cadillacs that only black people drive.

03:30:46.640 Would you say that's the form of eugenics?

03:30:47.680 That would be wrong, and it would be-

03:30:49.480 It would be eugenics, even with no babies present.

03:30:51.460 But you're still stabbing somebody.

03:30:52.660 You're still harming someone.

03:30:53.780 Sure, but you're not killing a kid.

03:30:55.220 It's eugenics.

03:30:55.840 You're killing what you don't want to call a kid, but it is a kid.

03:30:58.540 You're killing a human.

03:30:59.360 You don't want to call a person, but it is a human, and you're still upset with killing

03:31:01.740 it for racist reasons, but for other reasons, you're okay with it, and that doesn't make

03:31:04.120 sense to us.

03:31:04.580 It totally makes sense.

03:31:05.560 Let's do some super chats here.

03:31:07.200 How many more of these do we have, Brian?

03:31:08.680 We're getting there.

03:31:09.520 We're getting there.

03:31:10.500 We're getting there.

03:31:11.060 So a molar preg do not get rights because they are non-viable.

03:31:14.080 Pregnancies with lethal genetic abnormalities that will never be viable on their own, but

03:31:17.520 can still become full-term.

03:31:20.720 Anencephalic?

03:31:21.400 Babies never develop consciousness given time.

03:31:23.480 Comments?

03:31:24.340 Pregnancies with lethal genetic abnormalities that will never develop on their own.

03:31:27.040 Well, actually, that actually is false.

03:31:29.220 So pregnancies with lethal genetic abnormalities.

03:31:31.580 So the question is, does having a different genetic code or something that could end your

03:31:39.260 life, does that change that you are fundamentally human and that you are valuable?

03:31:44.980 A child who has been diagnosed with anencephaly or a child who's diagnosed with Down syndrome

03:31:50.560 or cystic fibrosis or whatever terrible syndrome you want to come up with, that doesn't change

03:31:58.780 the fact that the child in the womb, that child, that fetus, sorry, I didn't mean to trigger

03:32:03.280 you, has rights and is valuable and should be protected.

03:32:07.740 I don't think just because someone has been diagnosed, and by the way, the New York Times

03:32:12.240 even said earlier this year that 80% of genetic tests that come out and say that a child has

03:32:19.240 Down syndrome, cystic fibrosis, are wrong.

03:32:21.220 That was like the New York Times.

03:32:22.340 So that doesn't actually change your value, and it doesn't say that that human is no longer

03:32:27.860 worthy of life.

03:32:29.220 Wow.

03:32:29.320 Okay, we have Crystal Cole here.

03:32:31.180 Thank you for the super chat.

03:32:32.320 I really appreciate it, Crystal.

03:32:33.240 Thank you.

03:32:33.900 There are multiple definitions of consciousness.

03:32:36.080 One is related to awake, asleep, under anesthesia versus consciousness in terms of metaphysical

03:32:40.680 human awareness.

03:32:41.900 You can be unconscious according to the first definition while being conscious according

03:32:45.960 to the second definition.

03:32:47.680 Crystal, thank you very much for that super chat.

03:32:49.840 David Keiko, thank you for the super chat, man.

03:32:52.840 Thank you.

03:32:53.180 If I am the last boy on earth, is it a moral or virtuous for me to pull out and...

03:32:57.180 Nice dono, dude.

03:33:01.900 Good one.

03:33:02.800 I need to read these first.

03:33:04.700 Yeah, you really should.

03:33:05.340 All right.

03:33:06.340 Not cool.

03:33:07.240 Jennifer, this one came through.

03:33:09.300 We're reading $20 donos now?

03:33:11.160 No, just this.

03:33:12.120 Brokey fuck.

03:33:13.120 Jennifer, just a point of clarification here.

03:33:14.920 The read trigger is the actual question you want answered has to be $49.99 and up.

03:33:24.480 It can't be cumulative, cumulative.

03:33:27.760 So just a heads up, but something about the Khmer Rouge, I guess if you want us really

03:33:31.920 quick, just we'll give you a slide on this one.

03:33:34.240 Yeah.

03:33:34.540 Killing babies and bashing babies against a tree.

03:33:38.120 We would all agree is bad.

03:33:39.160 It's pretty bad.

03:33:39.800 Yeah.

03:33:40.480 All right.

03:33:41.900 Jennifer Hemingway, any relationship to the author?

03:33:45.820 Okay.

03:33:47.660 What is the question?

03:33:49.160 Is it bad to bash babies against a tree and kill them?

03:33:51.980 I would say it's pretty bad.

03:33:52.980 I reckon that's pretty bad.

03:33:53.660 I generally take a hard line of stance against, yeah.

03:33:55.300 We have the lifeline apologetics here.

03:33:57.300 If early term abortion fails the pill, hypothetically, if the child is born, the pill could have damaged

03:34:01.380 the child permanently.

03:34:02.940 Just like drinking and smoking, example, would it have been wrong to take the pill?

03:34:06.880 Is she stuck and has to try abortion again?

03:34:09.400 If you're going to have an abortion, it's probably like a foolproof method, not something that

03:34:12.480 can fail and have like a fucked up, damaged kid, because that would probably be on a...

03:34:15.480 A majority of abortions in the country today are committed via chemical abortion.

03:34:18.640 They have a 15% annual failure rate.

03:34:21.100 Wow.

03:34:21.360 So are you against chemical abortions?

03:34:23.020 If that's the actual stat, I probably would be.

03:34:24.860 I have a feeling that's probably not true, but if it was, I would probably be against it.

03:34:27.440 It actually is, but okay, yeah.

03:34:28.940 They usually have to go back for a percentage of the cases of surgical abortion.

03:34:32.820 Yeah, because it's incomplete abortion.

03:34:34.240 Gotcha.

03:34:34.800 All right.

03:34:35.080 Which is why there's abortion pill reversal, which can sometimes save the life of the child,

03:34:38.400 and it saved a few thousand lives.

03:34:40.040 If you take the first abortion pill in the regimen, you can save a thousand.

03:34:42.360 Yeah, you can go to standingwithyou.org.

03:34:44.000 Or if you have problems with the first one, just keep taking more and more, okay?

03:34:46.940 Nothing says you can't take like two or three Plan Bs, you know, Plan C, Plan D.

03:34:51.220 Do you think Plan B is an abortifacient drug?

03:34:53.880 Does that mean abortion?

03:34:54.940 Yeah.

03:34:55.520 Yeah, I think so.

03:34:56.200 Do you think Plan B can cause an abortion?

03:34:56.940 Is Plan B the one that prevents implantation?

03:34:59.080 Yep.

03:34:59.540 And yeah, probably, yeah.

03:35:00.260 Thank you for having a consistent definition.

03:35:01.960 No problem.

03:35:02.340 My definitions are all very consistent.

03:35:03.680 Well, no, I mean, you've had a consistent definition of when you think babies should be killed.

03:35:08.120 You have been very consistent throughout all this.

03:35:09.960 I have, thank you.

03:35:10.080 I think it's wrong, and I think it's reckless, and I think it's very dangerous.

03:35:12.860 But you've had a consistent position.

03:35:14.280 But I would thank you for actually admitting that Plan B, which a lot of ways—

03:35:17.860 Why are you saying admitting?

03:35:19.060 Well, no, because—

03:35:19.740 I agree it's abortion.

03:35:20.820 Let me finish, because when I talk about the dangers of Plan B, I will often be told by interviewers that I'm lying,

03:35:29.120 that Plan B is merely contraceptive.

03:35:31.200 It's not abortifacient.

03:35:32.380 But it actually says on the back of the Plan B box, may prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg.

03:35:37.520 If you Google the word fertilized egg, it comes up.

03:35:40.260 Yeah, I'm aware of that.

03:35:41.060 The strongest pro-life arguments—

03:35:41.860 So you actually admitted that.

03:35:43.180 I'm not admitting anything.

03:35:44.600 Obviously, I don't care.

03:35:45.380 But it can be abortion.

03:35:46.460 But the strongest pro-life arguments, in my opinion, are usually ones that consider the teleology,

03:35:53.400 the development of a human, rightfully so, begins at not conception, but implantation.

03:35:59.840 And I find that those pro-life arguments are more convincing than the ones that believe it happens at the moment of conception.

03:36:05.180 Because if it happens at the moment of conception, there are like millions of babies that die every single day,

03:36:09.240 tragically, that we never hear about and don't even know about and don't care about,

03:36:12.100 which is like a very weird position to have.

03:36:13.620 Whereas like implantation more closely followed—because you agree that it's possible to fertilize an egg,

03:36:18.880 and the egg just doesn't implant.

03:36:19.920 That's right.

03:36:20.380 Yeah, it goes out.

03:36:21.240 To think of that as like the death of a human or the death of a person is like very strange.

03:36:24.360 Just because that happens doesn't mean that those embryos aren't human beings.

03:36:30.080 I know, I know.

03:36:30.180 Are human beings that deserve all the rights, whatever.

03:36:31.740 But the idea that it begins at implantation, I think, is more satisfactory.

03:36:35.060 But if that's the case, then having Plan B wouldn't be considered abortifacient.

03:36:37.460 Do you believe IUDs are abortifacient?

03:36:39.180 Because I was reading something yesterday that Planned Parenthood had put out on their Instagram.

03:36:44.260 And they were saying that Plan B isn't very effective for people like me who are overweight.

03:36:48.840 And so they were suggesting that women get copper IUDs inserted in them, which we knew copper IUDs,

03:36:54.560 they're not preventing the release of an egg, but they actually—

03:36:57.440 I thought copper IUDs like sanitize and kill anything coming in.

03:37:00.440 But if you're doing it after the fact, after you've already had unprotected sex,

03:37:03.980 the goal of the IUD is to make the womb inhospitable to human life.

03:37:07.740 I don't know anything.

03:37:08.720 I've never heard about that before.

03:37:09.760 That might be true, but I've never heard that you can do an IUD as an abortion measure.

03:37:12.840 Yeah, it was actually—it was very new to me that Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry

03:37:15.780 is actually now lobbying as if IUDs are emergency contraception, but they use the word contraceptive.

03:37:22.080 They won't actually use the word abortifacient.

03:37:24.140 So I was just trying to find out, are you actually consistent as well?

03:37:27.420 Because you did admit that Plan B can be abortifacient.

03:37:28.380 I won't even admit that to you because I don't even—I don't know if that's true.

03:37:31.360 I'd have to research it on my own.

03:37:32.280 I've never—usually, like, scheduling for IUDs and all that, like, takes a while.

03:37:35.240 I've never heard of using an IUD to—

03:37:36.960 It was on the Planned Parenthood's Instagram page.

03:37:38.580 I was pretty shocked by it as well as that they were now recommending this drug, this device,

03:37:44.500 which actually can kill a baby.

03:37:45.980 It prevents implantation of the new human being into the uterine lining.

03:37:50.520 All right.

03:37:50.660 We have a super chat here from Trauma Davey.

03:37:54.240 Thank you.

03:37:55.260 For anti-abortion, what is people reproduced by shaking hands?

03:37:59.400 What if people reproduced by shaking hands and the child magically appeared in 10 minutes?

03:38:03.580 Would it be unethical to let go a second before?

03:38:07.440 I mean, this is—

03:38:08.300 That's—

03:38:08.880 No, it's not unethical.

03:38:09.760 No, it's not unethical.

03:38:10.900 Just like it's not unethical to not have sex and not conceive a child.

03:38:14.580 All right.

03:38:15.080 Trauma Davey, thank you there.

03:38:16.260 And we have just three more here.

03:38:17.660 We have gotcha.

03:38:19.860 Thank you for the donation.

03:38:21.140 Appreciate it.

03:38:21.580 For the pro-lifers, if an enslaved African-American woman in the 1800s unalived their fetus to

03:38:26.760 protect the fetus from an enslaved life, would that be immoral?

03:38:33.560 So, like, a mercy killing is the way that they would probably see it.

03:38:36.940 I think so, yeah.

03:38:38.020 And I think, yes, killing someone because—

03:38:40.520 It's immoral.

03:38:41.120 Yeah, it's immoral.

03:38:41.800 It's killing someone because they are going to be enslaved or have a bad life is not right.

03:38:46.580 We should instead work to free them and get them a better life instead of end their life.

03:38:49.840 Gotcha.

03:38:50.320 And gotcha sent it twice here.

03:38:51.880 So, gotcha, thank you for the subsequent—maybe is this one directed at Destiny?

03:38:55.920 He wants Destiny's take on this one.

03:38:58.760 Destiny?

03:39:00.600 For the pro—no, this is a fucking dogshit argument.

03:39:03.480 You can't make arguments in favor of abortion by killing people that might have shitty lives.

03:39:06.660 It's the stupidest fucking argument in the world.

03:39:07.800 We agree on that, Destiny.

03:39:08.300 You would never take a one-year-old, two-year-old, three-year-old.

03:39:09.240 We have found so many things.

03:39:10.440 All right.

03:39:10.700 Common ground.

03:39:11.240 Common ground.

03:39:12.280 There you go.

03:39:12.820 Most pro-choice arguments are stupid.

03:39:14.860 If you read Judith Thompson's original paper on, like, the defense of abortion, her defense

03:39:18.920 of abortion is one of self-defense.

03:39:20.280 But she very clearly outlines, if you read her paper, that Judith Thompson defends the right

03:39:24.840 for you to have an abortion.

03:39:25.720 She doesn't defend the right for you to kill the fetus.

03:39:27.480 That's why if you make an argument for viability and you cite Judith Thompson's paper, you haven't

03:39:30.660 actually read the paper because she doesn't even make that argument.

03:39:32.520 And even towards the end of her paper, she admits that, like, having, like, a seventh,

03:39:35.620 like, month abortion because you want to go on vacation is probably, like, an immoral

03:39:38.600 or a shitty thing to do.

03:39:39.560 Well, and the whole problem with her argument is that the child, whether it's pre-viability

03:39:42.760 or pre-consciousness, in your case, still deserves to live and still deserves nourishment

03:39:47.040 from their parent.

03:39:48.080 Well, that's a complicated argument.

03:39:49.660 But that's a very complicated argument because if you're making arguments self-defense, even

03:39:54.040 if things aren't acting with intent to kill you, you can still argue that you have a right

03:39:57.500 to leave the self-defense against those things.

03:39:59.080 For instance, if a four-year-old is running at me with a knife and he's going to come

03:40:01.740 and kill me or stab me to death, and I have no other way to avoid him but to shoot him

03:40:04.640 in the head for whatever reason, technically, you have a right to defend yourself against

03:40:07.320 that child.

03:40:08.080 Well, in that case, you would, first of all, what responsibility do you have for the child

03:40:12.220 running at you with a knife?

03:40:13.060 And second of all, you should try to disarm the child.

03:40:15.540 That's why in cases where even if you feel you're...

03:40:18.060 Sorry, I'm fucking over.

03:40:18.660 Even if you feel...

03:40:19.320 That's why in some places, if you feel you're being attacked and then you attack the person

03:40:24.100 back with lethal violence, you shoot them.

03:40:26.440 But it's like, hey, you could have run away.

03:40:27.820 You didn't have to stop there and shoot them.

03:40:29.240 You could have run away.

03:40:29.920 You could have...

03:40:30.120 I agree with you.

03:40:30.800 Then there are counter-arguments to that counter-argument too.

03:40:32.500 So for instance, the counter-argument...

03:40:33.120 But back to the child with pregnancy.

03:40:33.720 Sure, but the counter-argument to that counter-argument would be if you engage in sex, you're doing

03:40:36.660 every single thing you possibly can to avoid a person appearing.

03:40:40.060 So for instance, if you're taking contraception and using condom and they still appear, do you then

03:40:43.160 have full moral liability for them doing whatever?

03:40:44.700 And I believe, I think Thompson in her paper uses the example of you leave the window open

03:40:48.700 and like a people seed floats in and like lands in your house and suddenly grows into a human

03:40:52.280 just because you left the window open by a crack but you thought the screen would cover it.

03:40:55.040 Are you now morally responsible for the development, the protection, and the nourishment of that?

03:40:58.300 But then you can go back to her.

03:40:59.260 But I think, I mean, I think, again, her argument is flawed because regardless of whether or not

03:41:03.160 even how much the person wanted to be a parent, they're still a parent if there's a child inside them

03:41:09.540 and that child still deserves to live and has the right to live.

03:41:11.940 All right, we have Gredneck here.

03:41:13.340 Thank you, Gredneck, for the donation.

03:41:15.520 Really appreciate it, man.

03:41:16.200 Thank you.

03:41:16.600 Still pro-life, both sides, super smart.

03:41:18.500 Destiny answers non-stop logical and the girls try to get him on the tech.

03:41:22.140 This is going nothing but in circles, Brian.

03:41:24.460 Again, get a man on the P-life side next time to not just get emotional answers.

03:41:30.120 It is very redundant.

03:41:31.920 Damn.

03:41:32.660 Okay, well, there you have it.

03:41:35.940 Yeah, it would have been good to maybe have like 3v3, like have one guy.

03:41:40.560 Fuck no.

03:41:41.120 It's already hard with like three people throwing in more people to get everybody screaming at each other, right?

03:41:45.160 All right, we have Mockery here.

03:41:46.620 Thank you for the donation, man.

03:41:48.260 Really appreciate it.

03:41:49.140 If you don't value life specifically as a human consciousness, how do you justify eating meat?

03:41:52.820 If you value a fetus because it's going to become conscious, would it be immoral to stop a blank because you're interrupting the process that leads to a unique life?

03:42:02.220 Stop sex, I think.

03:42:03.440 Stop, yeah, well, stop, I think he's saying non-consensual.

03:42:08.260 Oh, yeah.

03:42:08.600 Yeah.

03:42:08.920 Let's not talk about that, but so we'll do the first question.

03:42:12.760 If you don't value life specifically as human consciousness, how do you justify eating meat?

03:42:18.160 So I assume he's talking about beef or chicken or pork.

03:42:20.820 No.

03:42:22.820 Kangaroo.

03:42:23.620 Have you ever had kangaroo?

03:42:24.740 For us or for Destiny?

03:42:25.620 I both have.

03:42:26.380 I like how about human conscious experience.

03:42:28.200 I didn't say human because we're not having a vegan debate here.

03:42:30.460 We're just having a...

03:42:31.240 Okay.

03:42:31.900 All right.

03:42:32.260 I mean, I think humans are different than animals, than non-human animals, and I think that they deserve protection more than humans.

03:42:39.360 Do you think if animals in the womb have consciousness, they have more value than the 19-week-old fetus in the womb?

03:42:44.260 No, because I don't care about animal consciousness at all.

03:42:46.280 Okay.

03:42:49.080 Well, we're totally caught up on chats, so...

03:42:51.960 Good for you, Brian.

03:42:52.740 Yeah, I know.

03:42:53.240 It took us a while, but we're there.

03:42:55.160 And Destiny, I just want to say I appreciate you dealing with two of us here.

03:42:59.680 I, like, have to appreciate you.

03:43:00.680 You guys argue in extreme bad faith.

03:43:02.740 Both of you do, but, you know, I'm here for it.

03:43:04.660 I was not intending that, and I hope you weren't intending that either.

03:43:08.180 I don't think we argued in bad faith at all.

03:43:09.960 Absolutely.

03:43:10.320 I think we were able to isolate your justification for abortion, and we went in circles many times because at the end of the day, I think it's an arbitrary line that you've drawn.

03:43:17.920 That's right.

03:43:18.300 You choose to not think that.

03:43:19.440 Wait, can either of you restate my argument in the best light possible?

03:43:22.840 I'm curious.

03:43:23.220 That a human being does not have rights to personhood and the right not to be killed until that human being, in your view, develops consciousness at 20 weeks, which you cannot define and tell us what consciousness is.

03:43:35.120 So you can kill that human being until 20 weeks.

03:43:38.460 It doesn't matter because it's not a human being.

03:43:41.000 It's not even a thing.

03:43:43.200 But it is wrong to practice eugenics and then kill it before 20 weeks because it's eugenics, but we still don't know what the hell you're killing.

03:43:51.320 Any other reason is okay.

03:43:51.940 Because you won't define what it actually is.

03:43:54.740 Okay.

03:43:54.940 And I'll do this one time just to show the audience, right?

03:43:57.120 Can you do that for our position?

03:43:58.520 Absolutely.

03:43:59.000 Your position is that if we're looking at the existence of a human being, there is a unique life that is created at the very moment of conception.

03:44:05.360 The blueprint that is going to determine everything you ever will become happens at that very moment.

03:44:09.500 You can trace back the beginning of your existence at the moment of conception, and it is the most clear and consistent way to define exactly when your life starts, when that unique organism exists, and then when it begins to grow and become a baby, an adolescent, adult, blah, blah, blah, blah.

03:44:20.040 Not quite correct, because it's not just the blueprint, Destiny.

03:44:22.700 It's also the substance.

03:44:23.280 I'm sorry.

03:44:23.800 It's also a really important point, though.

03:44:25.400 My summary, it's not that important.

03:44:26.160 It's really important.

03:44:26.760 My summary of your position is a million times better than your summary of my position, which is dog shit.

03:44:29.600 But that's okay.

03:44:30.200 No, no, no.

03:44:30.640 What's wrong with my summary of your position?

03:44:32.220 Just to clarify, because it's not, but just to clarify, and I appreciate you giving a stab at it, but it is incorrect, because it's not just a blueprint, like a blueprint and a car or a blueprint and a building, Destiny.

03:44:42.260 It's also the substance of the thing, and the thing, a human.

03:44:44.300 Just to be clear, it's not, it's, you don't even believe that.

03:44:46.920 I do believe that.

03:44:47.660 It is.

03:44:48.080 Hold on, hold on.

03:44:48.660 Everything is there.

03:44:49.240 It's a single cell embryo that with time and nourishment will continue to develop.

03:44:53.280 Do you believe in physics?

03:44:53.460 So an infant will continue to develop.

03:44:54.920 Do you believe in physics?

03:44:55.440 Absolutely.

03:44:56.020 Okay, you believe in time and space?

03:44:57.380 Absolutely.

03:44:57.740 Okay, in one cell, the only thing there is the blueprint.

03:45:01.640 And the potentiality to continue to develop and multiply.

03:45:05.040 Sure.

03:45:05.800 It's the blueprint.

03:45:07.020 There's a mechanism to begin building the blueprint, but there's only one cell.

03:45:10.480 It's just a blueprint.

03:45:11.240 A blueprint of a house is never going to build itself.

03:45:15.180 It will if other people are nourishing it.

03:45:17.640 Not quite, Destiny.

03:45:18.860 Sure, it has a little bit of self-assembly, but again, it's a blueprint.

03:45:21.660 It doesn't match, Destiny.

03:45:22.580 It doesn't match, because to make it a more exact argument or exact analogy to your blueprint,

03:45:28.100 it would be as if, again, like I was trying to say earlier, but I think we got redirected

03:45:31.380 another direction, but as if you put in the, your argument would be as if you put a blueprint

03:45:35.100 in a, on a plot of land, you stacked up all, you put all the nourishment there.

03:45:39.420 Can I just say self-assembly blueprint?

03:45:40.020 Let me just finish, let me just finish, let me just finish.

03:45:41.760 It's such a dumb technicality.

03:45:42.320 You put the blueprint there with all the stacks of wood, and you walk away, and you say,

03:45:47.280 okay, well, the house will just build itself.

03:45:48.960 The child, the difference between the blueprint and the stacks of wood is it needs workers to

03:45:52.860 go build it.

03:45:53.380 In the case of a single-cell embryo, it is a whole person that's going to self-actualize

03:45:58.580 and develop and multiply its cells to reach different levels of age and development, as

03:46:02.480 we all do as human beings, not just pre-born, but once we're born.

03:46:05.160 Oh, plan life, thank you for the gift of 50.

03:46:09.220 Sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

03:46:10.300 It's fine.

03:46:10.780 Destiny, just we're using that conscious fairy.

03:46:12.660 Okay, we have, let's just see here, we have lifeline apologetics.

03:46:18.240 Destiny didn't answer the hypothetical, assumes the abortion fails and damages the fetus permanently.

03:46:23.160 If the abortion fails, is she stuck in the choice to attempt abortion again to prevent

03:46:27.300 the potential damaged future child?

03:46:30.200 Fans of the ladies hope to work with y'all someday.

03:46:32.560 Yeah, you should probably attempt abortion again, yeah, otherwise you are harming a future

03:46:35.620 person, yes.

03:46:37.640 To use the piano analogy, let's say that you go to push, let's say that you go to push,

03:46:40.760 let's say that you go to push, let's say that you go to push a piano immediately, let's

03:46:44.860 keep it nice, let's keep it nice, guys, come on.

03:46:46.720 Let's say that you push a piano immediately off a building and there's nobody beneath it.

03:46:48.720 Let's say that you go to push it, but it only like half falls, and then it's going to

03:46:52.380 fall in five minutes when somebody is beneath, yeah, you should try to push it again

03:46:55.140 to avoid harming a person.

03:46:55.980 Your argument does not make sense because you say it's immoral to harm a potential person,

03:47:01.660 but it's not immoral to kill, in your view, a potential person.

03:47:06.760 It's immoral to harm the future person.

03:47:09.560 A future person.

03:47:10.040 If you have an abortion, no future person exists.

03:47:12.020 But is it immoral to kill a future person?

03:47:14.100 According to your argument, all humans before 20 weeks are future persons' destiny.

03:47:19.020 No, because if you don't, if you have an abortion, there is no future person.

03:47:23.700 There would have been if you didn't have the abortion's destiny.

03:47:25.420 But there isn't, there would have been implies there is not.

03:47:27.880 But a person still existed, you just killed him.

03:47:30.500 No, they didn't exist, that was the whole point, they never started to exist.

03:47:33.560 What was in the womb then?

03:47:35.220 A fetus.

03:47:36.300 It didn't exist?

03:47:37.720 A fetus existed, not a person, a fetus.

03:47:40.500 The fetus, the child, the latter.

03:47:42.720 Whatever you want to embellish it and draw it up.

03:47:45.440 But how can you justify saying that harming a potential person, a fetus in the womb, is

03:47:52.380 immoral because that may long, you know, long term in their life hurt them, but it's

03:47:58.540 not immoral to kill them.

03:48:00.740 Because in one sense, you are harming a future person.

03:48:04.540 In another sense, you're preventing that person from existing.

03:48:06.960 He doesn't care that they would have become a person if you wanted to kill it.

03:48:09.820 I know you're like saying it like half like trying to own me, but at least you're actually

03:48:12.840 I understand your argument.

03:48:15.880 There is a fundamental difference.

03:48:17.040 I think it's, I don't agree with it, obviously, but I understand it and, you know, it is what

03:48:20.860 it is.

03:48:21.080 You'll keep giving the same answer, so I understand.

03:48:23.320 We got it.

03:48:23.760 All right, we have a chat here from, I guess I'll just read that one while it's up.

03:48:28.080 Angel Cardenas, W. Destiny, the Karens are ignorant.

03:48:33.980 Do you, do you guys want to respond to the Karen accusation?

03:48:38.420 No, we were asked.

03:48:39.340 No?

03:48:39.640 Okay.

03:48:39.840 Well, I mean, we were asked to come here and talk about our pro-life beliefs, and I feel

03:48:44.500 like we did that.

03:48:45.120 We did not insert ourselves into this debate.

03:48:50.480 Okay, we have BOF.

03:48:53.280 Could you hide that?

03:48:54.100 Destiny, how certain must you be that a fetus is conscious to consider abortion wrong?

03:48:58.040 Let's say there's a 10% chance that the fetus is conscious at 21 weeks, 20% at 22, 30%,

03:49:03.660 23, et cetera.

03:49:04.500 At what point would you ban abortion?

03:49:06.240 Like I said, the part is, like, 20 to 24 weeks, so I'd probably just cut it off right

03:49:10.760 at 20 weeks is, like, where people say the development is.

03:49:12.900 All right, we have DMZ Demise.

03:49:15.220 Thank you for the 69 donation.

03:49:16.500 Really appreciate it.

03:49:17.260 The two women are not accepting that he has clearly drawn where his line is.

03:49:20.460 The practice of eugenics wrong abortion prior to a certain period he feels acceptable,

03:49:24.680 primarily that it be done before the kid could feel pain or has brain stimulation.

03:49:29.780 Unless it's done for a eugenic reason, which was the whole debate we were having.

03:49:33.600 Then you're opposed to it.

03:49:35.940 Yeah.

03:49:36.500 If you have an argument with a room full of kids and you say, hey, guys, you guys should,

03:49:40.860 like, probably not have children or, like, wait a long time to have children, that's fine.

03:49:44.640 But if you only say that in rooms of black kids, that's not fine.

03:49:47.560 The same action, but it's bad because in one sense you're practicing eugenics and the other

03:49:50.760 sense you're not.

03:49:51.280 The bad thing is the eugenics part.

03:49:52.360 I don't know who you're practicing eugenics on with a 19-week old fetus if you said it's not a thing.

03:49:58.180 Well, if you're practicing it on society.

03:50:01.160 That's what eugenics is practiced on, on a societal level.

03:50:03.860 Like, that's what...

03:50:04.540 But I don't, yeah, I don't think it works, but...

03:50:06.660 Okay.

03:50:06.980 Let's get this chat.

03:50:08.000 We have Weaboo.

03:50:09.440 Yeah.

03:50:09.640 Thank you for the donation.

03:50:10.840 It's not good to base your values on potential.

03:50:13.060 If a person inherited a gene that made them predisposed to being extremely violent,

03:50:17.320 do we preemptively put them in jail?

03:50:19.440 It's difficult to make decisions on things that haven't happened.

03:50:23.240 Weaboo.

03:50:24.200 Thank you very much for your soup chat.

03:50:25.780 Appreciate it.

03:50:26.300 And then we have Dragon Zombie 2000.

03:50:30.120 I'm neutral on this topic, but I really feel Destiny's just gish galloping.

03:50:35.560 Not sure what that is.

03:50:36.280 He's not really making any convincing arguments.

03:50:38.580 He's speed talking his way out of corners to avoid addressing Lila's actual points.

03:50:44.780 Lila's absolutely crushing it.

03:50:46.940 Respect.

03:50:48.240 Thank you.

03:50:48.800 Destiny, your response?

03:50:50.020 Or Lila, your response?

03:50:50.980 No, you go ahead, Destiny, first.

03:50:52.680 Absolutely true.

03:50:53.620 I mean, the pro-life argument is very simple in many ways.

03:50:58.440 It's about human rights for all humans.

03:51:00.540 You don't get to put personhood based on developmental markers.

03:51:03.880 Personhood is for everyone.

03:51:05.360 If you're a human, you're a person.

03:51:06.260 If you're a person, you're a human.

03:51:07.420 That's the bottom line.

03:51:08.460 And so you don't do age discrimination or developmental discrimination or consciousness

03:51:12.360 or unconsciousness discrimination.

03:51:14.220 You're a human.

03:51:14.720 You have human rights.

03:51:15.300 And that's why we oppose intentional violence against humans.

03:51:18.060 And that's why we didn't talk about it in this debate, but maybe we could do another

03:51:20.800 when at some point we're getting to how to stop abortions, all the other arguments for

03:51:25.520 abortion and against it, how we can make our civilization more just and more loving to

03:51:30.500 a place where there are less abortions.

03:51:33.000 Women don't even choose it anymore.

03:51:34.660 We're supporting them more.

03:51:36.100 I mean, there's a whole lot more that pro-lifers focus on a lot beyond the debate on this consciousness

03:51:42.140 question.

03:51:43.080 Sure.

03:51:44.100 Okay.

03:51:45.020 Let's see here.

03:51:45.780 I think we're all finally caught up on all the chats.

03:51:48.660 So, closing statements.

03:51:52.620 And you have to get going, right?

03:51:54.720 I've already missed.

03:51:55.140 Lila, what's that?

03:51:56.900 I've already missed.

03:51:57.480 I'm good.

03:51:57.980 Oh, you're good?

03:51:59.000 Oh, no.

03:52:01.400 Time-wise, are you guys doing time-wise?

03:52:04.380 I want to get the fuck out of here.

03:52:05.500 Do you want to think of another thing?

03:52:06.460 I didn't know I was going to have an actual body.

03:52:07.440 Destiny wants to be unconscious.

03:52:08.880 Four-hour debate on abortion.

03:52:10.460 This is like the joke topic where everybody...

03:52:12.460 Abortion and veganism are the two that I never do long-form debates on.

03:52:15.240 So you wrote me in, too.

03:52:16.240 Destiny wants to go to sleep and have experienced blissful unconsciousness.

03:52:19.860 I want to go do drugs.

03:52:21.060 That's what I want to do right now.

03:52:21.400 But no one's allowed to kill him.

03:52:22.540 And he's unconscious.

03:52:23.420 What are we...

03:52:23.740 Okay.

03:52:24.020 I'm just kidding.

03:52:24.560 Okay.

03:52:24.820 What else do I want to talk about?

03:52:26.160 Well, we...

03:52:27.160 We're going to keep going.

03:52:28.500 We could, if you guys want.

03:52:30.260 We can continue.

03:52:31.680 Oh, my gosh.

03:52:31.800 Or if you guys feel like we've hit...

03:52:34.340 We've...

03:52:34.780 The duration of the podcast has been sufficient, then we can wrap it up.

03:52:39.360 Sure.

03:52:39.720 Is there anything you really want to hit or something?

03:52:41.360 Well, I mean, I would love...

03:52:42.720 Actually, I mean, not necessarily now, because I know I have to drive three hours,

03:52:46.120 and I think, you know, you have a flight and stuff, but I would love to do a podcast to

03:52:49.760 talk about sexual ethics and talk about, you know, the whole reason we have the abortion

03:52:53.640 crisis in the first place.

03:52:54.660 One of the reasons is we have laws that permit abortion, and people are just getting them.

03:52:57.600 The other reason, though, is...

03:52:58.680 The other reason is, I think, societally, culturally, post-sexual revolution.

03:53:02.780 I think that's a very interesting conversation, so...

03:53:04.800 Abortion has become a parachute.

03:53:06.040 You get out of jail.

03:53:06.840 Free card for...

03:53:08.480 I love how children are described as, like, punishments, like, the consequence of your actions.

03:53:11.660 We agree on that, yeah.

03:53:12.820 Well, that's what you were describing them as.

03:53:13.980 No, that's how...

03:53:14.660 Like, get out of jail, like having a kid is being in jail, and the parachutes are to save

03:53:18.020 you from that.

03:53:18.420 That is how abortion, when you do polling and you do research for how many people view

03:53:23.560 abortion in our country, that is how they view abortion, is that it's a wrong, that it's

03:53:29.420 ending the life of a human being, but it's a necessary wrong for them to continue whatever

03:53:35.220 they feel is the trajectory of their life, and that child inconveniencing them justifies

03:53:41.920 ending their life, and that's why I think what Lila was saying earlier was, it was sad

03:53:46.300 that we actually didn't get into this at all in this conversation, is about what are we

03:53:50.640 doing as a nation to transform our culture where no woman feels like she has to choose

03:53:56.380 abortion again, because that is part of our work in the pro-life movement.

03:54:00.380 It's not just simply educating people about science and biology and reality or, you know,

03:54:06.700 passing laws.

03:54:07.640 It's also tangibly coming beside women and changing policies, whether it's on college

03:54:12.500 campuses or in the workplace or advocating for tangible support services and resources.

03:54:18.480 I don't feel like we appropriately got to that point.

03:54:21.140 I would say we should reduce abortions by giving more contraceptives to people and let

03:54:24.080 them keep fucking.

03:54:24.680 That's my area.

03:54:25.300 I actually have one question for the pro-life side here.

03:54:27.840 And I've heard this come up from people who are either more liberal or pro-choice.

03:54:34.400 What would you say to someone who says it's hard to take pro-lifers or conservatives seriously

03:54:41.260 on the abortion issue, considering their social Darwinism on nearly every other issue?

03:54:48.000 Now, you might reject that premise, but...

03:54:50.060 I would reject that premise.

03:54:51.100 Okay.

03:54:51.600 I would actually reject that.

03:54:52.600 But I've often heard it said, one of the arguments you might hear as well, you know,

03:54:57.540 they're only pro-life in this one particular instance, but, you know, they're not so in

03:55:02.340 favor of, you know, once the child is born.

03:55:06.280 This isn't my position.

03:55:07.860 I'm just echoing what...

03:55:09.780 What we have done in the pro-life movement for 50 years, while Roe was the law of land,

03:55:15.760 was create a whole social safety net of pregnancy centers, maternity care centers that vastly

03:55:20.100 outnumber the fewer...

03:55:21.520 You know, there's more than 3,000 of them that outnumber the 600, fewer than 600 Planned

03:55:25.920 Parenthood abortion facilities in our country.

03:55:27.480 And these are nonprofit entities that are in the hardest-hit neighborhoods who raise money

03:55:33.540 on their own.

03:55:34.480 We're door-knocking, delivering diapers and formula to actual doors in neighborhoods surrounding

03:55:40.780 abortion facilities.

03:55:41.700 So that's actually not who we are in the pro-life movement.

03:55:44.760 That's not what...

03:55:45.800 You know, when you look at the money raised within the broader pro-life movement, the majority

03:55:49.840 of money that is raised in the pro-life movement actually is for the tangible support services.

03:55:56.480 So I would say that actually is unfair, and it's very untrue of a statement.

03:56:01.200 I would say we would have also...

03:56:03.020 We can have different policy debates about a lot of things that are very important that

03:56:08.400 determine, you know, how humans thrive in our nation.

03:56:12.960 But I think we need to also enter in those conversations with good intentions with one another,

03:56:18.620 not assuming that each other or those on the other side of the aisle just hate human beings.

03:56:24.780 You know, my position on, I don't know, immigration or school choice or healthcare might be different

03:56:31.880 than yours, but that's not meaning that I'm starting with the assumption that I hate human

03:56:36.380 beings and I think human beings should suffer.

03:56:38.360 I would say I have very good reasons for why, for example, I oppose socialized healthcare or

03:56:44.340 why I think there should be choice in education and parents should be able to choose to send

03:56:48.520 their children to charter schools as opposed to sending them to failing public schools.

03:56:53.120 I'm not saying that because I hate children.

03:56:55.460 I'm saying that because I think it's a good policy prescription that can benefit society.

03:57:00.780 So I think that's actually, you know, when you come to those arguments, both sides are actually

03:57:04.900 saying that they value human life.

03:57:07.100 What's different in the pro-life movement is we're saying that valuableness, that human dignity

03:57:12.760 that we're giving to a child who's at the border or a child who's stuck in a failing school in

03:57:18.360 Detroit, we believe that child in the womb has that same dignity because we are all human beings

03:57:25.140 and fundamentally the one thing that we all have in common is our humanness.

03:57:29.960 And human beings deserve basic human rights and that first right is the right not to be killed.

03:57:35.160 Did you have anything to add, Lila, or that privilege?

03:57:38.840 Well, I mean, we just released our New North Star Coalition kind of position statement saying

03:57:44.040 we need complete legal protection for all humans in this country, you know, the abolishing of

03:57:48.320 abortion, and we also need to make our country a friendlier place to raise a family.

03:57:52.740 And so that goes to things like a child subsidy.

03:57:55.240 I think that if you're a parent, you should get a cash benefit, you know, money back for that child.

03:58:00.260 I think we need to make birth free in this country.

03:58:01.980 So I do think that there are some things that even conservatives can get behind to say,

03:58:06.000 listen, you know, we should be funding things that make our family, our country more pro-family.

03:58:12.100 Got it.

03:58:12.580 And maybe last thing to go out on a lighter note.

03:58:16.560 Should we react to that Dave Chappelle clip?

03:58:19.760 Just on the...

03:58:20.980 Heavy, heavy light.

03:58:22.420 I don't know if that's light.

03:58:24.260 Yeah.

03:58:24.760 All right.

03:58:25.360 Let's do a little clip.

03:58:27.020 We'll react to a little clip here kind of related from a Dave Chappelle stand up.

03:58:30.880 So we'll get the panel's input, and then we're going to wrap up.

03:58:36.980 All right.

03:58:38.460 Yeah, just go ahead and...

03:58:40.180 Do you want me to...

03:58:41.340 It's on the videos tab, too.

03:58:43.580 We're on the video.

03:58:44.800 Videos tab.

03:58:45.700 Oh, shoot.

03:58:47.180 Yeah.

03:58:48.080 I'm trying to get a hold of them.

03:58:49.440 I've got to change my flight.

03:58:50.840 That's all right.

03:58:51.100 What is your flight?

03:58:52.080 Oh, can you see it?

03:58:52.820 Yeah.

03:58:53.440 But what happens to your flight?

03:58:55.080 I change it.

03:58:56.300 When was it?

03:58:57.380 It was tonight, like midnight.

03:58:58.840 It's not going to happen.

03:58:59.320 Out of where?

03:58:59.760 LAX.

03:59:00.740 I had a dinner as well.

03:59:01.740 So I'm going to have to stay for breakfast, and then...

03:59:03.960 When is your flight to D.C. or where?

03:59:06.620 D.C., yeah.

03:59:07.480 Are you worried that you're just going to miss it, or do you have other things you want

03:59:09.840 to do instead?

03:59:10.420 I have to have a meeting before I leave, so I'm stuck here.

03:59:13.560 Where are you heading next?

03:59:14.420 Because if you show up...

03:59:15.240 I don't know if the fuck would I think anyway.

03:59:17.580 Here, let's...

03:59:18.140 Wait.

03:59:19.780 I'm not for abortion.

03:59:21.480 Can you make it...

03:59:22.240 Eric, hold on.

03:59:22.820 Pause, pause, pause, pause, pause.

03:59:24.440 Go to the audio symbol.

03:59:26.180 Make sure it's all the way up.

03:59:27.500 Oh, that's weird.

03:59:29.680 On the way up.

03:59:32.680 I'll know if we can hear it.

03:59:34.520 I was going to say, if you show up late, usually they'll let you fly standby on another flight

03:59:37.300 instead of having a break to go home.

03:59:38.360 Yeah, I'm looking at it right now.

03:59:39.800 Bro, hello?

03:59:40.900 Nigga.

03:59:42.280 Can you start from the beginning?

03:59:44.420 Can you start from the beginning?

03:59:46.480 I'll be real with you, and I know nobody gives a fuck what I think.

03:59:50.120 Anyway, I'm not for abortion.

03:59:55.520 Oh, shut up, nigga.

04:00:06.300 I'm not for it, but I'm not against it either.

04:00:09.460 It all depends...

04:00:14.460 On consciousness.

04:00:15.760 ...on why you're pregnant.

04:00:24.280 I don't care...

04:00:25.120 I'm going to tell you right now.

04:00:25.880 I don't care what your religious beliefs are or anything.

04:00:28.640 If you have a dick, you need to shut the fuck up on this one.

04:00:33.300 Seriously.

04:00:33.740 Seriously.

04:00:33.860 Seriously.

04:00:39.460 This is theirs.

04:00:42.220 The right to choose is their unequivocal right.

04:00:45.460 Not only do I believe they have the right to choose,

04:00:47.600 I believe that they shouldn't have to consult anybody

04:00:50.280 except for a physician

04:00:52.280 about how they exercise that right.

04:00:57.140 Gentlemen, that is fair.

04:00:59.740 And ladies, to be fair to us,

04:01:02.860 I also believe if you decide to have the baby,

04:01:07.700 a man should not have to pay.

04:01:09.460 That's fair.

04:01:16.800 If you can kill this motherfucker,

04:01:18.620 I can at least abandon him.

04:01:23.000 It's my money, my choice.

04:01:30.400 And if I'm wrong, then perhaps we're wrong.

04:01:34.320 So figure that shit out for yourselves.

04:01:35.900 Okay, I think that's it.

04:01:40.860 The reaction from the panel.

04:01:43.540 I love when comedy reveals the truth

04:01:46.340 about how our abortion laws in America

04:01:51.400 don't actually make sense.

04:01:53.940 That, you know, men have no rights

04:01:56.200 to say whether or not a woman

04:01:57.740 can choose to pay someone

04:02:00.060 to end the life of her child.

04:02:01.440 He has no say in the decision at all,

04:02:05.780 even though that child was created

04:02:08.120 with half of his DNA,

04:02:10.340 yet if she decides to keep the child

04:02:14.220 and raise the child,

04:02:14.900 and he wants an abortion,

04:02:16.500 he could be put in jail

04:02:17.540 for failing to pay child support.

04:02:19.500 I think that's unfair,

04:02:21.280 and it doesn't make sense,

04:02:22.140 and I think it emasculates men

04:02:23.600 in our society.

04:02:24.920 I know many of us

04:02:25.760 in the pro-life movement

04:02:26.320 believe that child support

04:02:27.320 should actually begin at conception

04:02:28.700 because that would be fair, right?

04:02:31.960 She has, as a mother,

04:02:33.520 you have a special role,

04:02:34.800 and your body is just another human being,

04:02:39.040 so men cannot do that.

04:02:42.660 But the man should step up,

04:02:45.040 but we should allow him

04:02:46.320 to be able to step up.

04:02:47.580 So I think it proves the irony.

04:02:49.940 Some logical consistency in that skit?

04:02:52.440 I thought it was funny,

04:02:53.220 but every point he brought up

04:02:54.100 was dog shit.

04:02:55.740 Not the best, not the best.

04:02:57.100 Well, I mean,

04:02:58.100 he also made the no uterus,

04:03:00.360 no opinion.

04:03:00.920 Yeah, the problem is that

04:03:01.800 everybody should be interested

04:03:03.040 and invested in whether or not

04:03:04.400 children are being murdered

04:03:05.080 in the United States,

04:03:05.800 whether you're a man or a woman.

04:03:06.520 So the idea that just because you're a dick

04:03:07.540 means you don't have an opinion

04:03:08.180 is fucking beyond stupid.

04:03:10.180 Also, the problem with financial abortions

04:03:12.180 is the way that family courts

04:03:13.360 are structured

04:03:13.780 and the way we think about

04:03:14.580 paying child support is

04:03:15.500 we're always thinking about

04:03:16.580 not in terms of

04:03:17.100 what's fair to the mother or father.

04:03:18.320 We're thinking about

04:03:18.660 in terms of what's in the best interest

04:03:19.940 of the child.

04:03:20.700 And in the best interest of the child,

04:03:21.880 if you're going to have a child,

04:03:22.780 the child needs financial support.

04:03:23.940 If the government's not going

04:03:24.540 to be able to pay,

04:03:25.080 then the father has to step up and pay

04:03:26.180 or the mother if the child

04:03:27.160 goes to the father.

04:03:28.000 So child support isn't something

04:03:28.960 that's supposed to be fair

04:03:29.940 or you can have a financial abortion

04:03:31.460 or the woman can have

04:03:31.960 a physical abortion.

04:03:32.980 Child support is just supposed to mean

04:03:34.240 that if a child is born,

04:03:35.320 it needs to be financially cared for

04:03:36.500 and some of that financial support

04:03:37.760 should probably come from

04:03:38.460 the two people that made the child.

04:03:39.960 Usually it's the father

04:03:40.560 paying child support

04:03:41.140 because usually the mother's a caretaker.

04:03:42.840 That's an interesting point

04:03:43.560 that you're making

04:03:44.000 and I agree with a lot

04:03:44.820 of what you're saying, Destiny,

04:03:45.680 because our court system,

04:03:46.960 when it is oriented

04:03:47.920 towards the child's welfare

04:03:49.940 as opposed to the desires

04:03:51.140 of the adults,

04:03:51.960 I think that's just

04:03:52.900 because the child is the one

04:03:54.100 that needs the advocate there

04:03:54.960 and it's the one

04:03:55.340 that's the most vulnerable.

04:03:56.640 I do think sometimes

04:03:57.500 our court systems

04:03:58.200 are not focused as much

04:04:00.740 on the child

04:04:01.400 and our legal system

04:04:02.340 is not focused as much

04:04:03.060 on the child.

04:04:03.660 Obviously abortion is case in point

04:04:05.460 because the woman decides

04:04:06.660 in some cases obviously

04:04:07.340 to have the abortion

04:04:08.000 or she's coerced into it

04:04:08.880 and she has it.

04:04:10.360 And then in other areas

04:04:11.200 in reproductive technologies

04:04:13.400 because reproductive technologies,

04:04:14.980 most of them are all about

04:04:15.980 the adults desiring

04:04:17.160 to have a child

04:04:18.020 and in the process

04:04:19.800 of creating all these children,

04:04:21.140 a lot of them are killed

04:04:22.040 or endangered

04:04:22.560 and that's harmful too.

04:04:24.420 So, but overall,

04:04:26.160 I think they're on the same page.

04:04:26.480 Yeah, I mean,

04:04:26.600 it doesn't make sense.

04:04:27.220 It's like the Lacey

04:04:28.240 and Connor Peterson law

04:04:29.440 here in California.

04:04:30.620 In California,

04:04:31.040 you can kill your child

04:04:32.920 in an abortion,

04:04:33.740 no questions asked.

04:04:34.720 That's a celebrated right.

04:04:35.980 But if you are murdered

04:04:38.560 by your husband

04:04:39.520 or your partner

04:04:40.220 on your way

04:04:41.280 to an abortion facility,

04:04:42.720 you as a woman are murdered

04:04:43.960 and your child is murdered,

04:04:45.620 he can be tried

04:04:47.500 with committing two murders.

04:04:51.200 Does that make sense to anyone?

04:04:53.560 Yeah.

04:04:53.880 Well, and I have a question here

04:04:55.020 for Destiny

04:04:55.400 related to the Dave Chappelle clip.

04:04:57.000 So, you know,

04:04:58.380 he's sort of talking

04:04:59.240 at the end there.

04:05:00.300 What did he say?

04:05:00.880 My wallet, my choice

04:05:02.660 or my money, my choice.

04:05:03.560 This is obviously directed

04:05:06.560 at someone who's pro-choice.

04:05:09.580 What, do you have a stance

04:05:10.760 on legal paternal surrender?

04:05:12.960 It's, it's, I've heard it's called.

04:05:14.880 No, you can't do it, no.

04:05:16.860 You can't do legal paternal surrender.

04:05:19.040 Wait, when you say paternal surrender,

04:05:20.140 are you talking about

04:05:20.560 like the financial abortion?

04:05:21.760 Being able to say,

04:05:22.240 I don't want to have any paternity,

04:05:23.460 I don't want to be able to.

04:05:23.940 Well, yeah, I mean,

04:05:24.520 I think the term

04:05:25.460 that people who are in favor of it,

04:05:27.140 they prefer not to use

04:05:28.660 either paper abortion

04:05:30.660 or financial abortion.

04:05:32.360 But would you be in favor of that?

04:05:36.500 I mean, in a world

04:05:37.140 where the government

04:05:37.640 would subsidize

04:05:38.160 and take care of all of it,

04:05:39.140 sure.

04:05:39.880 But when it's not happening,

04:05:41.020 no, you'd probably have to pony up

04:05:42.480 for the financial support.

04:05:43.500 Okay.

04:05:44.720 Okay.

04:05:45.840 I think that's totally fine.

04:05:47.600 The penalties of,

04:05:49.480 I fucking hate talking about this issue

04:05:51.180 to these audiences,

04:05:52.000 but the penalties

04:05:52.560 of being a single mother

04:05:54.040 that has to take care of a child

04:05:55.740 for 18 years

04:05:57.400 is so infinitely greater

04:05:59.380 than the penalties

04:05:59.880 of paying some child support,

04:06:01.140 of which half of fucking fathers

04:06:02.480 don't even fucking pay anyway.

04:06:03.680 That the idea of like

04:06:04.640 comparing those two things

04:06:05.680 is one of the most

04:06:06.560 retarded fucking things

04:06:07.700 I've ever heard of

04:06:08.620 uttered by virgins

04:06:09.400 and it is actually

04:06:10.440 one of the stupidest fucking things

04:06:11.820 to complain about

04:06:12.660 the burden of child support

04:06:13.880 when you're abandoning

04:06:14.820 your kid to a single mom.

04:06:15.780 That is un-fucking-believable.

04:06:16.860 I think we have

04:06:17.400 some common ground there,

04:06:18.480 Destiny,

04:06:18.880 because I do think

04:06:19.580 that that's part of the,

04:06:20.700 part of the reason

04:06:21.820 we have so many abortions

04:06:22.880 actually is because,

04:06:24.640 yes,

04:06:25.220 women are choosing

04:06:26.140 these abortions,

04:06:27.060 but most women

04:06:28.000 who have abortions

04:06:28.580 actually are single moms.

04:06:29.600 And so they're already dealing

04:06:31.260 with raising a child

04:06:32.180 on their own

04:06:32.780 and a broken relationship

04:06:34.200 with a man

04:06:34.560 who's usually not in the picture

04:06:35.460 and sometimes,

04:06:36.060 like you're saying,

04:06:36.420 defaulting on child support.

04:06:37.440 So I think that is

04:06:38.000 a major problem.

04:06:38.940 Well, Destiny,

04:06:40.060 I guess my response

04:06:40.700 to you there would be

04:06:41.600 you say that the ramifications

04:06:45.900 impact women

04:06:47.240 a bit more greatly.

04:06:49.220 Yeah.

04:06:49.420 But I mean,

04:06:50.020 when it comes

04:06:51.180 to the financial component,

04:06:52.960 for example,

04:06:53.760 men,

04:06:54.380 if,

04:06:55.800 you know,

04:06:56.100 we did away

04:06:57.080 many years ago

04:06:57.760 with debtors' prisons,

04:06:59.100 but men who fail

04:07:00.560 to pay child support,

04:07:02.360 perhaps they're

04:07:03.540 in some financial,

04:07:04.980 bad financial position,

04:07:06.780 they're going to

04:07:08.180 get locked up in jail.

04:07:10.420 Go to the court

04:07:10.960 and work it out.

04:07:12.500 Rearrange your,

04:07:13.140 your child support

04:07:13.960 is usually based

04:07:14.560 on your income,

04:07:15.240 your ability to pay.

04:07:16.360 You figure that out

04:07:17.720 when you know,

04:07:18.520 I pay child support

04:07:19.100 because I know

04:07:19.400 it's based on your income

04:07:20.660 and everything.

04:07:21.240 Like you,

04:07:21.520 it's not like

04:07:21.980 they're going to take

04:07:22.420 a guy that's earning

04:07:23.140 $1,000 a month

04:07:24.560 and he's got to pay

04:07:25.120 $10,000 a month

04:07:26.220 to his rich single mom

04:07:28.340 who's driving around

04:07:29.100 in a Ferrari

04:07:29.580 because of all the money

04:07:30.880 she's making

04:07:31.500 on child support.

04:07:33.120 Or if it's really

04:07:34.040 that big of an issue,

04:07:35.600 as much as I hate to say it,

04:07:36.700 like wear a condom,

04:07:37.760 don't get somebody pregnant.

04:07:38.820 But what if the guy

04:07:40.940 is indigent?

04:07:41.780 So he just,

04:07:42.280 What if the guy's what?

04:07:43.320 Indigent.

04:07:44.040 Is that the right word?

04:07:45.420 Impotent?

04:07:45.940 What are you talking about?

04:07:46.180 Indigent.

04:07:46.720 Indigent.

04:07:47.440 Oh, like homeless.

04:07:47.880 Like homeless,

04:07:49.440 no money.

04:07:50.860 Oh, and he's probably

04:07:51.700 not going to pay shit anyway.

04:07:52.560 What do you mean?

04:07:53.600 Right,

04:07:53.860 but I mean

04:07:54.760 I'd have to look

04:07:55.420 into it further

04:07:56.020 but my understanding

04:07:56.800 is even if you

04:07:58.180 don't make any money,

04:08:00.640 if you fail

04:08:01.140 to pay child support

04:08:01.960 that puts you

04:08:02.460 at risk of

04:08:03.160 being incarcerated.

04:08:04.420 Well, I think

04:08:04.680 the courts get

04:08:05.340 into the details

04:08:05.940 of the situation

04:08:06.640 because if you are like,

04:08:08.160 you're homeless

04:08:09.140 because of some

04:08:09.780 medical injury

04:08:10.400 or something

04:08:10.840 or you have

04:08:11.760 a mental health condition,

04:08:12.740 they will take

04:08:13.160 that into account

04:08:13.740 because usually

04:08:14.160 there's court proceedings

04:08:14.980 where the woman's

04:08:15.500 trying to get

04:08:15.840 the money

04:08:16.620 from the man

04:08:18.540 and so it depends

04:08:19.360 on the circumstance.

04:08:19.880 You know what,

04:08:20.420 you did make

04:08:21.380 another interesting

04:08:22.240 statement there

04:08:22.800 though, Destiny,

04:08:23.440 and you said

04:08:24.700 that, well,

04:08:26.000 the man,

04:08:26.860 if he's concerned

04:08:27.880 with the financial

04:08:29.900 ramifications

04:08:30.540 of pregnancy

04:08:31.420 and having a child,

04:08:32.520 then, well,

04:08:33.500 he should just

04:08:33.940 not have sex.

04:08:34.820 That's a rather

04:08:35.260 pro-life...

04:08:36.320 Yep,

04:08:36.760 that's literally

04:08:37.560 what I tell students

04:08:38.480 on campuses

04:08:39.000 every time on campus.

04:08:40.020 That's a very

04:08:40.300 rather bronze-age

04:08:41.960 pro-life position

04:08:42.940 of you to take.

04:08:44.140 I don't think

04:08:44.400 there's a pro-life

04:08:45.060 position at all.

04:08:45.900 Well, it seems like

04:08:46.900 almost...

04:08:47.120 It's a cautious

04:08:47.600 position, right?

04:08:49.260 Listen, my rule

04:08:50.020 is I only nut in women

04:08:50.780 that make more money

04:08:51.280 than I do, okay?

04:08:52.280 So, if I got

04:08:53.100 somebody pregnant,

04:08:53.760 they got the money

04:08:54.180 to take care of their shit,

04:08:55.140 I don't knock up

04:08:55.800 any fucking broke bitches,

04:08:57.200 that's how you live

04:08:57.740 your life, boom.

04:08:58.480 There's nothing bronze-age

04:08:59.280 about that.

04:08:59.740 Also, I'm pro-choice.

04:09:00.440 My wife gets knocked up,

04:09:01.440 we're getting an abortion,

04:09:02.440 we're driving

04:09:02.880 under the abortion clinic,

04:09:03.860 like, boom,

04:09:04.380 have the conversation

04:09:04.940 beforehand, like,

04:09:05.380 I don't know what to say.

04:09:06.080 You have some amount

04:09:06.700 of ability to exercise

04:09:07.880 your reproductive rights

04:09:09.880 with a woman.

04:09:10.420 I mean, if you're worried

04:09:10.960 about her getting pregnant,

04:09:11.560 be careful.

04:09:11.980 Either use multiple

04:09:12.560 forms of birth control,

04:09:13.720 don't use birth control,

04:09:14.760 make sure she's got

04:09:15.220 a really long staircase,

04:09:16.420 I mean, whatever you have to do,

04:09:17.320 but, I mean,

04:09:18.080 once the child is born,

04:09:19.060 it has to be provided for.

04:09:20.220 You can't just, like,

04:09:20.800 oh, well, I didn't want to,

04:09:22.000 oh, no, no, no,

04:09:22.640 because now you have

04:09:23.220 a living person

04:09:23.840 whose life is going to be

04:09:24.940 materially impacted

04:09:25.760 by the financial contributions

04:09:26.820 you make,

04:09:27.300 so at that point,

04:09:27.940 you have to consider

04:09:28.520 the best interests of the child.

04:09:29.780 You know, would have,

04:09:30.380 could have, should have

04:09:31.080 had an abortion

04:09:31.600 or should have fucked

04:09:32.140 or whatever,

04:09:32.600 you're past the point

04:09:33.300 at that point, so.

04:09:34.360 Well, sure, I understand.

04:09:35.180 It sucks, and it's not fair.

04:09:35.900 It's not really fair,

04:09:36.760 because sometimes people want,

04:09:37.600 men especially,

04:09:38.080 want to argue this point

04:09:38.620 of fairness.

04:09:39.220 It's also not fair

04:09:39.760 that women have to carry

04:09:40.400 and deliver kids,

04:09:41.300 but, like, all red pillars

04:09:42.600 like to say,

04:09:43.200 life isn't fair.

04:09:43.920 It's not always fair.

04:09:44.600 Men and women aren't the same.

04:09:45.780 Men have to pony up

04:09:46.660 a little bit more

04:09:47.100 on the financial responsibility side.

04:09:48.300 Women have to fucking

04:09:48.860 deliver kids and have periods

04:09:50.020 and be annoying in general,

04:09:51.340 so, like, it's life isn't fair.

04:09:52.460 That's just the reality

04:09:53.180 of the situation, right?

04:09:54.800 Well, I think, I mean,

04:09:55.600 I think we agree a lot

04:09:56.780 with you on a lot of that,

04:09:58.280 Destiny,

04:09:59.000 except for the long

04:09:59.600 staircase comment.

04:10:00.720 You were saying something

04:10:01.420 earlier that was interesting.

04:10:02.980 I don't know if you want

04:10:03.520 to talk about it, Destiny,

04:10:04.400 before the camera started,

04:10:05.820 about you used to be pro-life,

04:10:08.380 now you're pro-choice,

04:10:09.180 but you have a son,

04:10:10.460 and then you made

04:10:10.840 some comment about

04:10:11.260 you wouldn't,

04:10:12.360 something about your son

04:10:13.060 would have been pro-choice,

04:10:13.940 would have super aborted.

04:10:15.580 What's that?

04:10:16.320 Yeah, I would have an abortion

04:10:17.060 if I would have been

04:10:17.380 pro-choice, but I was super pro-life

04:10:18.700 when my kid's mom was pregnant,

04:10:20.400 so we had a conversation,

04:10:21.300 and I can't have an abortion

04:10:22.480 if I'm pro-life

04:10:23.980 Do you feel like

04:10:24.820 if your son would hear this,

04:10:26.140 that would affect him?

04:10:26.900 No, I'd tell it to him.

04:10:27.560 What do you mean?

04:10:28.120 You told your 12-year-old son?

04:10:30.200 Yeah, I'm super frank,

04:10:30.940 but me and his mom

04:10:31.900 are split up.

04:10:32.480 It's not like we chose

04:10:33.340 that arrangement,

04:10:33.820 like we want to be split

04:10:34.780 or whatever,

04:10:35.240 but I still love my kid.

04:10:36.140 How do you think

04:10:36.300 that affects your child?

04:10:37.420 It doesn't.

04:10:37.900 He knows I love him.

04:10:38.500 We hang out.

04:10:38.860 We have fun.

04:10:39.380 I talk to him.

04:10:40.000 I love him,

04:10:40.280 but I'm not going to say

04:10:40.960 I'm lying to him.

04:10:41.720 I love you now,

04:10:41.760 but I could have killed you

04:10:43.360 before he existed.

04:10:45.820 But he was in existence

04:10:47.180 because he was alive.

04:10:49.080 Okay.

04:10:49.880 Are we going to redo

04:10:50.600 the whole four-hour conversation?

04:10:51.840 Are you saying that people,

04:10:52.360 human beings,

04:10:53.720 aren't in existence?

04:10:54.820 You're saying they're not persons,

04:10:56.220 but they're still in existence

04:10:57.240 because they are alive.

04:10:58.480 What I'm saying is that

04:10:59.400 their hearts are beating,

04:11:00.260 blood is pumping

04:11:01.040 through their veins.

04:11:01.420 What I'm saying is

04:11:02.020 I don't treat my kid

04:11:02.760 like an idiot.

04:11:03.360 He sees he has

04:11:03.940 two separated parents,

04:11:04.980 so obviously the situation

04:11:06.060 is not ideal,

04:11:07.020 but I love my kid.

04:11:07.840 Of course I do.

04:11:08.640 Now that I have him,

04:11:09.420 I wouldn't kill him.

04:11:10.280 We could have had an abortion.

04:11:11.420 I mean, maybe at some point

04:11:12.000 we could do it.

04:11:12.220 But you tell him that

04:11:12.760 you would have aborted him.

04:11:14.520 I don't know if we said that.

04:11:15.380 I make jokes about it,

04:11:16.620 but I can bring him

04:11:18.440 for the next conversation

04:11:19.240 and we'll see.

04:11:19.980 Hopefully he thinks it's a joke

04:11:21.040 because it probably

04:11:22.080 would be hard to hear.

04:11:23.400 I don't think we're all

04:11:24.440 traumatized the same way,

04:11:25.240 but maybe.

04:11:25.740 He might be traumatized.

04:11:26.480 I'm a little traumatized

04:11:27.420 and I want him to be

04:11:28.020 the spinning image of me.

04:11:29.480 Yeah, I would have killed you.

04:11:31.360 Absolutely.

04:11:31.780 I say it just like that too.

04:11:33.240 All right.

04:11:33.500 We have our last chat here,

04:11:34.640 King of Arena.

04:11:35.860 Thank you for the donation, man.

04:11:36.940 I'm on the fence

04:11:37.440 about whether a fetus is a person,

04:11:38.820 but since killing a person

04:11:39.680 is significantly worse

04:11:41.060 than an unwanted pregnancy,

04:11:42.680 it seems better to risk

04:11:43.800 being pro-life

04:11:44.600 than pro-choice.

04:11:46.020 I think even a half

04:11:48.000 or a third chance

04:11:49.000 of killing a kid is worse.

04:11:50.700 That was the point

04:11:51.180 I made earlier

04:11:51.840 when I was asking Destiny

04:11:53.000 about what if he is wrong

04:11:54.300 versus what I am wrong,

04:11:55.520 that even if you're not

04:11:56.920 100% sure.

04:11:58.060 Are we really reset

04:11:58.760 this whole argument?

04:11:59.660 No, I'm just reaffirming

04:12:01.540 what the commenter was saying.

04:12:03.180 Even if you're not

04:12:03.820 100% sure if a fetus

04:12:05.440 is a person that you think

04:12:07.020 has rights to life,

04:12:08.260 I think we always need

04:12:09.460 to err on the side of caution.

04:12:11.340 And that's why

04:12:11.740 I was calling your choice

04:12:13.440 of saying person

04:12:14.760 that doesn't begin

04:12:15.180 at 20 weeks is reckless.

04:12:16.320 I mean, it's the hunter...

04:12:17.660 No, I'm just re-saying

04:12:18.720 Well, it's the hunter hypothetical

04:12:19.300 if you're hunting

04:12:20.240 and you're rustling

04:12:20.960 in the bushes

04:12:21.360 and it might be a human,

04:12:22.540 but it might be a deer.

04:12:23.840 Do you just shoot

04:12:24.620 before you can confirm

04:12:25.660 that this isn't a human,

04:12:26.600 this is a deer?

04:12:27.300 And you would say,

04:12:28.080 well, let's make sure

04:12:28.640 I'm actually hunting a deer

04:12:29.540 and not a human here.

04:12:31.080 But that's more for people...

04:12:32.840 But hold on.

04:12:33.200 When you go hunting,

04:12:34.600 there is a chance

04:12:35.520 that you could shoot

04:12:36.180 a person in a deer suit, right?

04:12:37.300 But if you knew

04:12:38.100 that there was a 10-year-old

04:12:39.340 wandering through the woods

04:12:40.460 near where you were hunting,

04:12:41.540 it's more of the hypothetical.

04:12:42.180 Yeah, but even so,

04:12:43.040 you could be shooting

04:12:43.680 a guy in a deer suit

04:12:44.560 every time you shoot, right?

04:12:45.820 Well, if you knew

04:12:46.720 that there was, again,

04:12:47.740 in the hypothetical...

04:12:48.480 I'm not saying you knew...

04:12:49.080 Oh, we lost our lives.

04:12:49.980 I'm asking...

04:12:50.820 I'm asking...

04:12:51.040 Hold on.

04:12:51.500 Can we engage

04:12:52.100 with the hypothetical?

04:12:52.780 Yeah, well, I was stating

04:12:54.180 a hypothetical.

04:12:54.200 There could be a person

04:12:54.720 in a deer suit, right?

04:12:55.620 Okay.

04:12:56.020 I'm sorry, that's real life.

04:12:56.780 There could be a person

04:12:57.180 in a deer suit, right?

04:12:57.580 Okay.

04:12:57.960 But what you would say is,

04:12:59.340 is it worth me to eat meat

04:13:00.840 knowing I'm going to be

04:13:01.400 killing a human?

04:13:02.100 What you would say is,

04:13:03.020 the probability

04:13:03.580 of me eating meat

04:13:11.540 to an extreme,

04:13:12.080 like you would say,

04:13:12.420 well, I'm just saying...

04:13:13.160 Because you could say,

04:13:13.760 when I get in a car,

04:13:14.600 I might kill someone.

04:13:15.380 Yeah, I'm just saying

04:13:15.860 that the car accident

04:13:16.420 isn't worth the risk.

04:13:17.220 Asking, like,

04:13:17.760 can I do this thing

04:13:18.500 if it causes this bad thing?

04:13:19.360 You have to weight

04:13:20.280 those probabilistically

04:13:21.240 because that's where the whole...

04:13:22.740 Of course.

04:13:22.780 That's the most important part.

04:13:23.820 We already know it's a lie.

04:13:24.480 But with an abortion,

04:13:25.420 you know that it ends

04:13:27.540 the life of the thing,

04:13:28.600 but even if you're like,

04:13:29.500 oh, I'm not sure

04:13:30.080 if it's a human or not,

04:13:31.140 so this is not your position,

04:13:32.300 Destiny,

04:13:32.520 as some pro-choicers,

04:13:33.680 they're like,

04:13:34.020 I'm not sure

04:13:34.580 whether or not it's a human.

04:13:35.420 I don't know

04:13:35.920 when life begins.

04:13:36.960 And the pro-life response

04:13:37.760 to that is to say,

04:13:38.680 well, if you don't know

04:13:39.400 when life begins,

04:13:40.480 saying it's okay to kill

04:13:41.460 something that could be a life,

04:13:42.720 even by your definition,

04:13:43.900 is not just and not justified.

04:13:45.360 And I understand.

04:13:46.200 And I'm saying that

04:13:46.700 locking an 11-year-old

04:13:47.560 for having an abortion

04:13:48.240 because she's pregnant...

04:13:49.440 But now you're going

04:13:49.680 to an extreme case

04:13:50.600 that we discussed earlier.

04:13:50.620 You can call it an extreme.

04:13:51.740 That's real life.

04:13:52.240 I'm just saying that...

04:13:53.020 Who's going to emotion now?

04:13:54.120 Which I think we actually

04:13:55.260 disagreed on that case

04:13:56.360 because I was saying

04:13:56.800 we shouldn't lock up

04:13:57.560 the 11-year-old.

04:13:58.120 You accused us

04:13:58.720 of going to emotional arguments,

04:13:59.920 but you've been

04:14:00.620 the whole time saying

04:14:01.360 you have a very

04:14:01.940 straightforward fact-based opinion

04:14:04.000 that it's just consciousness

04:14:05.240 and you're...

04:14:06.360 Well, sure.

04:14:06.880 Well, hold on.

04:14:07.320 She's giving me

04:14:08.000 a potential risk

04:14:08.800 and I'm giving you

04:14:09.360 a potential risk.

04:14:10.000 I do just want to say,

04:14:10.960 like, I know we're leading

04:14:11.840 the end of this year,

04:14:12.520 a little kumbaya.

04:14:13.080 I do think overall

04:14:14.000 Destiny is trying to

04:14:15.160 argue his best

04:14:16.240 that he's doing

04:14:16.580 a good job.

04:14:16.660 I don't need your charity.

04:14:17.860 I'm not trying my best.

04:14:18.960 I was bad faith all night.

04:14:20.260 And I know Kristen

04:14:20.540 and I know she has

04:14:21.220 great intentions.

04:14:22.060 So I just want to...

04:14:22.960 I know the bad faith thing

04:14:24.060 has been leveled a bit,

04:14:24.740 but I will just say

04:14:25.560 I think there's a lot

04:14:26.660 of good faith,

04:14:27.320 imperfect debating

04:14:28.220 happening here.

04:14:28.960 I think you two are evil.

04:14:30.300 Okay.

04:14:31.400 Unironically,

04:14:31.860 you guys are like out here

04:14:32.660 like trying to get

04:14:33.600 abortion rights

04:14:34.360 and everything,

04:14:34.900 banned from all

04:14:35.880 of human society.

04:14:36.700 I think that's kind

04:14:37.180 of evil shit.

04:14:38.140 Restricting the rights

04:14:38.760 of women.

04:14:39.960 Well, I think dismembering

04:14:41.180 a child in the womb

04:14:42.180 is absolutely horrific

04:14:43.060 and brutal.

04:14:43.080 We can at least all agree

04:14:44.040 to it.

04:14:44.360 We all think each other

04:14:45.920 is evil.

04:14:46.660 Okay.

04:14:47.100 I didn't say

04:14:48.040 you're evil, Destiny.

04:14:48.960 I am evil.

04:14:49.640 I'm advocating

04:14:50.080 for fucking child murder.

04:14:51.240 What is more evil

04:14:52.280 than that?

04:14:53.120 It's got to be

04:14:53.700 a pretty evil position.

04:14:54.440 Well, in your mind,

04:14:55.380 because of I think

04:14:55.920 cognitive dissonance,

04:14:56.860 you're convinced yourself.

04:14:58.180 You've seemingly

04:14:58.800 almost perfectly convinced

04:14:59.780 Nazis convinced themselves

04:15:00.340 that killing Jews

04:15:01.000 was good.

04:15:01.380 It didn't make it

04:15:01.840 a good thing, right?

04:15:02.600 You seem to have convinced

04:15:02.800 yourself that they're

04:15:03.800 not human lives,

04:15:05.120 that they don't matter,

04:15:05.920 that they're not persons.

04:15:06.660 Therefore, it's okay

04:15:07.180 to kill them for almost

04:15:08.340 any reason except for

04:15:09.240 eugenics, but almost

04:15:10.000 any reason.

04:15:11.160 So in that case,

04:15:12.220 because if you sincerely

04:15:13.240 think that, and again,

04:15:14.200 I think there's

04:15:14.540 cognitive dissonance

04:15:15.260 at play, you know.

04:15:16.040 There's not.

04:15:16.940 I think, yeah,

04:15:17.560 they think there are

04:15:18.080 some good intentions

04:15:18.640 that you have.

04:15:19.220 I mean, I sincerely think

04:15:19.940 that.

04:15:20.140 I do think that the

04:15:21.700 position, the pro-abortion

04:15:22.880 position at its heart,

04:15:23.880 though, is not just

04:15:25.100 illogical, but it's evil

04:15:26.640 because it has led to

04:15:28.740 the killing of 60 million

04:15:30.060 children in this country.

04:15:31.340 Thanks.

04:15:31.740 And that's absolutely

04:15:32.860 horrific, and that's why

04:15:33.740 we are working at Live

04:15:34.580 Action to stop that

04:15:35.300 and save lives and serve

04:15:36.220 women and help and do

04:15:37.060 all the things that we're

04:15:37.640 doing, educate, et cetera.

04:15:39.340 60 million people.

04:15:40.580 Would you say that's

04:15:41.120 like 10 times more

04:15:42.040 or like 100 times?

04:15:42.860 Where are you at on the?

04:15:43.560 It eclipses any other

04:15:44.520 human rights abuse in our

04:15:45.420 history and in the

04:15:46.160 20th century.

04:15:47.420 I'm sorry.

04:15:48.280 That was an advanced

04:15:48.720 Nazis.

04:15:49.920 Can you show the

04:15:51.020 camera the doodles

04:15:51.740 you've been drawing?

04:15:52.300 I don't even know.

04:15:53.160 They were very good

04:15:54.500 doodles this whole time.

04:15:55.780 It was wonderful.

04:15:56.720 In any case.

04:15:57.400 Where was my, I was a

04:15:59.180 little jealous because

04:15:59.900 I'm a doodler too, and

04:16:00.860 you're like, brought that

04:16:01.460 to Destiny?

04:16:02.240 Yeah, he asked for some

04:16:03.180 kind of paper.

04:16:03.820 Well, you didn't need

04:16:04.560 that because I let you

04:16:05.220 guys finish your

04:16:05.740 statement, so you

04:16:06.480 were.

04:16:06.740 Well, no, I mean,

04:16:07.660 Destiny, you went

04:16:08.240 really fast and you

04:16:09.120 were like changing the

04:16:10.600 topic.

04:16:11.020 I mean, we were, I

04:16:11.620 think, both doing that

04:16:12.300 in fairness, so next

04:16:13.760 time, you know what we

04:16:14.400 could do?

04:16:14.640 I think next time we

04:16:15.100 need a whiteboard.

04:16:16.200 A moderator.

04:16:16.540 You did great, Brian,

04:16:17.500 but someone who, no,

04:16:18.820 no, no, not Don

04:16:19.700 and Brian, but we do.

04:16:20.660 And they cut the

04:16:21.380 camera.

04:16:21.900 No, no, no.

04:16:22.120 We do need a real

04:16:22.760 moderator next time.

04:16:23.980 But more, put the

04:16:24.880 question up, and then

04:16:25.540 we each take a turn

04:16:26.200 answering, and then

04:16:27.080 have like two minutes.

04:16:28.440 Oh, get like a

04:16:28.980 timer.

04:16:29.440 Like a timer, and

04:16:30.500 then, yeah.

04:16:31.340 Two minutes, 30

04:16:31.940 seconds to respond.

04:16:33.360 True.

04:16:34.260 This is my first

04:16:35.100 time.

04:16:35.500 That's okay.

04:16:35.760 This is my first

04:16:36.200 time.

04:16:36.340 I like, you did

04:16:36.900 well, Brian.

04:16:37.360 The whiteboard where

04:16:37.660 you just draw out

04:16:38.360 the arguments.

04:16:39.740 Okay, so Lila, where

04:16:41.540 can people find you?

04:16:42.660 Thank you.

04:16:43.100 So liveaction.org is

04:16:45.020 our pro-life

04:16:45.520 organization, so we

04:16:46.460 have all kinds of

04:16:47.460 arguments for life,

04:16:49.360 responding to his

04:16:50.920 position, as many

04:16:52.220 other pro-abortion

04:16:52.900 positions, facts and

04:16:54.640 resources.

04:16:55.060 If you want to be

04:16:55.640 educated or educate

04:16:56.280 other people, follow

04:16:57.060 us on social media.

04:16:58.060 I have a podcast, too,

04:16:59.040 the Lila Rose Podcast,

04:16:59.980 and my new, brand new

04:17:01.000 YouTube channel.

04:17:02.320 Destiny, you should

04:17:02.820 come on, and we'll do

04:17:03.400 another.

04:17:04.240 Oh, that'd be good.

04:17:04.860 I was like, no.

04:17:05.460 That'd be good.

04:17:06.000 Whenever you want,

04:17:06.720 okay.

04:17:07.140 And so you can check

04:17:08.120 that out on YouTube,

04:17:08.800 Lila Rose Podcast.

04:17:10.080 And all of our

04:17:10.660 socials are liveaction,

04:17:11.600 or Lila Rose.

04:17:12.100 You can check us

04:17:13.180 out at studentsforlife.org

04:17:14.560 or standingwithyou.org

04:17:16.220 if you need pregnancy

04:17:16.940 resources or support

04:17:18.440 or help for abortion

04:17:20.280 pill reversal.

04:17:21.580 I've got a podcast

04:17:22.400 explicitly, Pro-Life,

04:17:24.100 and you can check out

04:17:24.780 my YouTube and my

04:17:25.940 Instagram and all my

04:17:27.040 social media handles

04:17:28.160 at Kristen Hawkins.

04:17:30.360 Destiny, where can

04:17:30.980 people find you?

04:17:31.580 You can check me out

04:17:32.000 at www.nomorebabies.org.

04:17:34.560 Okay, we show you

04:17:35.160 the best brands of

04:17:35.780 hangers to use, how to

04:17:36.900 use copper IUDs to

04:17:37.960 have abortions, all

04:17:38.840 sorts of exotic ways

04:17:39.760 to abort a pregnancy

04:17:40.340 you never even could

04:17:40.960 have imagined, could

04:17:41.620 have dreamed up.

04:17:42.580 Okay, also

04:17:43.060 youtube.com slash

04:17:43.840 destiny, kick.com

04:17:44.920 slash destiny, and

04:17:45.840 destiny.gg.

04:17:47.860 Are you getting a

04:17:48.740 kick deal, by the

04:17:49.360 way?

04:17:50.060 Wouldn't you like to

04:17:50.680 know?

04:17:51.400 All right.

04:17:52.700 Oh, I have to say

04:17:53.580 one thing since Lila's

04:17:54.780 here.

04:17:55.080 Lila, I saw the

04:17:55.860 interview with

04:17:57.340 Pints with Aquinas?

04:17:59.960 Aquinas.

04:18:00.200 Aquinas, and I have

04:18:00.700 to, this is part of

04:18:02.300 the beef, I guess.

04:18:03.180 I've never even

04:18:03.960 addressed it.

04:18:04.480 He said, he said, he

04:18:05.760 said that he hopes

04:18:06.780 that the whatever

04:18:07.780 podcast crashes and

04:18:09.860 burns.

04:18:10.720 So, Pints with

04:18:11.680 Aquinas, I hope, am I

04:18:14.180 even pronouncing it

04:18:14.880 right?

04:18:15.080 Yes.

04:18:15.340 Aquinas.

04:18:15.660 I hope that.

04:18:17.820 He didn't know

04:18:18.640 enough about the

04:18:19.360 podcast.

04:18:19.460 Your thing crashes and

04:18:20.420 burns too?

04:18:21.140 Damn.

04:18:22.080 How about that?

04:18:23.860 You can crash and

04:18:24.680 burn also.

04:18:25.420 Okay, in any case,

04:18:26.940 thank you everyone for

04:18:28.100 tuning in.

04:18:28.880 Big thank you to the

04:18:29.800 wonderful panel here

04:18:31.300 for coming tonight.

04:18:32.900 Thank you to everyone

04:18:34.600 who tuned in to watch.

04:18:36.000 You could have been

04:18:36.320 anywhere in the world,

04:18:37.040 but you were here with

04:18:37.960 me.

04:18:38.360 I appreciate that.

04:18:39.500 Thank you to everyone

04:18:40.320 who so generously super

04:18:41.980 chats and donates and

04:18:43.120 supports the show.

04:18:43.860 It means the world.

04:18:44.940 Thank you.

04:18:45.240 Thank you.

04:18:46.460 Five hours, Brian.

04:18:47.820 It was a long show,

04:18:49.680 long show, but it was

04:18:50.900 good.

04:18:51.200 It was good.

04:18:53.180 Guys, the Dating

04:18:54.740 Talk is going to be

04:18:55.580 back Tuesday, the 27th,

04:18:58.200 so about a week from

04:18:59.020 now.

04:18:59.760 We'll be back at our,

04:19:01.300 and then thereafter,

04:19:02.280 we'll be back to our

04:19:03.580 normal schedule, Sunday

04:19:05.140 and Tuesday at 7 p.m.

04:19:06.220 Pacific.

04:19:07.420 Tuesday, the 27th,

04:19:08.560 7 p.m.

04:19:09.540 Pacific is our first

04:19:10.400 Dating Talk back.

04:19:12.140 If everybody in the

04:19:12.880 chat, if I could get

04:19:13.700 some 07s in the chat.

04:19:17.260 07s in the chat, guys,

04:19:19.140 please.

04:19:20.480 But, yeah, thanks again

04:19:21.440 for tuning in tonight.

04:19:22.280 Thank you once again to

04:19:23.500 the wonderful panel for

04:19:24.580 coming and doing this,

04:19:26.560 and 07s in the chat,

04:19:28.000 and we will see you guys

04:19:29.240 next time.

04:19:30.100 Good night, guys.

04:19:30.620 Bye.

04:19:32.280 Bye.

04:19:32.580 Bye.

04:19:32.660 Right.

04:19:38.840 Bye.

04:19:40.000 Bye.

04:19:41.520 Bye.

04:19:41.680 Bye.

04:19:42.180 Bye.

04:19:42.700 Bye.

04:19:54.820 Bye.

04:19:55.120 Bye.

04:19:55.160 Bye.

04:19:55.800 Bye.

04:19:56.340 Bye.

04:19:57.020 Bye.

04:19:58.100 Bye.

04:19:58.260 Bye.

04:19:58.340 Bye.

04:19:59.260 Bye.

04:20:00.620 Bye.

04:20:00.820 Bye.

Whatever Podcast - June 27, 2023

Abortion Debate ｜ Whatever Podcast #8

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