Whatever Podcast

00:00:00.000 welcome to a special debate edition of the whatever podcast coming to you live from

00:00:12.880 santa barbara california i'm your host and moderator brian atlas a few quick announcements

00:00:17.160 before the show begins this podcast is viewer supported heavy youtube demonetization so

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00:00:38.740 all the details for all the triggers that we do have in the description we're just going to jump

00:00:44.180 right into it this is going to be a fairly laissez-faire debate so without further ado

00:00:50.700 if you guys want to just introduce yourselves quickly yeah my name is andrew wilson host of

00:00:57.420 the crucible it's fastest growing debate channel on youtube to my knowledge i'm political satirist

00:01:03.280 political commentator and i do blood support debates so i'd like to thank my opponent for coming out

00:01:08.520 today i really appreciate that very much and i'm looking forward to a good faith debate all right

00:01:12.840 welcome i'm carly i'm a ucsb student i'm just a random person well no hold on so you're what are

00:01:21.540 you studying at ucsb political science are you a grad student or undergrad i'm undergrad okay yeah all

00:01:27.720 right and we had you on one of our dating talks about uh it was what two weeks ago or so yeah and

00:01:34.120 and uh andrew did a call-in on that show and you guys had quite uh i thought quite a good back and

00:01:40.360 forth on various topics feminism sexism racism i think some other stuff did we did we talk about

00:01:50.240 the geopolitics of georgia the russia no we haven't gotten into that not into that okay maybe maybe a

00:01:55.960 little later on the show um perhaps a good place to start is what did you guys disagree on during the

00:02:02.640 podcast well i think primarily our focus was on feminist ideals and the optimal ways to raise

00:02:08.320 families so i'm happy to kind of dive in on that if you'd like sure yeah so so that we're not speaking

00:02:16.300 past each other when you define feminism would you define it as the pursuance of egalitarianism

00:02:25.180 between men and women yes no other real qualifiers not for me i do think it's difficult to

00:02:32.580 define because i think that everyone kind of has their own definition so when talking about it it's

00:02:37.860 difficult to like discuss feminism it's like a monolithic thing but yeah i think that's a good

00:02:43.800 it's a good working definition if it's a movement towards egalitarianism this would imply that there was

00:02:50.280 not egalitarianism and so feminism was set in opposition to patriarchy yes okay okay so that's an

00:02:58.220 entailment we can agree to yeah so i'd like to start with a basic argument before i move to

00:03:04.720 larger arguments my first argument my first objection is what i call an equal force objection

00:03:11.280 men are the enforcement arm of society and because they are the enforcers of rights and i don't believe

00:03:19.880 that rights exist as an objective standard but rather they're a social construction of the mind

00:03:24.280 what i think we actually have is what's called force right so force are rights that's all rights

00:03:31.020 really can be because the entailment of a right is it's only as good as who can enforce it i do not

00:03:38.440 believe that women can enforce their own rights and that only men can enforce their rights and so

00:03:43.240 therefore i do not believe egalitarianism is possible nor should it be something that we move towards

00:03:48.400 so you think that men are the enforcement arm in the sense that they enforce rights or our conception

00:03:54.780 of rights or are you arguing that they're the enforcement arm as in like they're enforcing

00:03:58.220 law and order well let's back up to make sure that we're not speaking past each other again so

00:04:02.440 rights you would agree are not a tangible thing but they're just a conception they're yeah a social

00:04:10.840 construction yes so if you are to have a right an entitlement absent a duty if we can define a

00:04:18.960 right as that then what you're really talking about is force you're talking about having force

00:04:25.120 to make sure that you have this entitlement that would be necessary and so when i'm talking about

00:04:30.640 force i'm saying that men have the monopoly on force and because they have a monopoly on force

00:04:35.260 anytime they so choose they can take the rights away from women but it's never possible the other way

00:04:39.280 around i i guess i would disagree that rights are only upheld through force like in this day and age

00:04:48.480 i think that it's easy to say that hypothetically men could turn against women and use like brute

00:04:55.120 strength and brute force to take away rights but i think that it's okay i think that we have we have

00:05:02.440 a pretty mocking her brian a pretty well founded legal system that we we used to uphold rights or

00:05:10.620 you know our conception of rights i think i would disagree that rights are our only force i do agree

00:05:16.700 that they are a social construction legal system is force i mean the legal system yes it is for it's

00:05:23.080 coercion but i know it's not just coercion it's force so if if absent you doing whatever the legal

00:05:30.820 system determines you must do what is the remedy i mean i mean that's a good point i just think that

00:05:38.140 do you think that rights are enforced like physically like that men okay physically could

00:05:44.920 you give me an example of that because i think i don't really fully understand if you want to make

00:05:48.360 an appeal that your rights are in some way being taken away from you or your rights in some way are

00:05:54.500 being violated who would you make the appeal to the supreme court i don't know and so let's assume

00:06:02.940 whoever you make this appeal to on a court agrees with you they're going to be able to use the power

00:06:09.480 of their office to appeal to brute force in order to defend or take your right away so if i want to

00:06:15.020 take you send you to prison i'm taking your rights away right what does that require force physical

00:06:20.260 force yes it doesn't require physical force to keep you there yeah i would say that taking

00:06:24.720 someone to prison and keeping someone in prison does require physical force but i mean

00:06:29.280 i guess i like abortion rights it's a very like recent i fail to see how like the right to

00:06:39.700 right to get an abortion maybe not the right because obviously punishing someone who performs an

00:06:44.640 illegal abortion involves taking someone to prison but how is the right to an abortion upheld

00:06:49.540 by physical force i you know i well because if if you go to get an abortion okay and somebody comes

00:07:00.740 in to stop you from getting an abortion meaning they're going to stop you from exercising that

00:07:05.040 right if that's a right you believe you have wouldn't you make an appeal to men with guns to come in

00:07:10.960 and stop them from stopping you from doing that okay i think i i understand what you mean now i think i

00:07:16.600 didn't fully understand what you mean but i mean in that case women can train to use weaponry and use

00:07:22.080 guns i mean we have weaponry now that can kind of fill the gap between men and women's everything

00:07:29.180 comes down to actual physical force and let me explain what i mean there's not one time in history

00:07:35.800 ever that you can point to where women have been able to collectively use force in order to dominate men

00:07:42.880 however every point in history i can almost point to where men can and have done that and the opposite

00:07:50.800 cannot be true meaning that if men in even small collectives decide to take the rights away from

00:07:57.540 women there is not actually anything women can do about it however if women mildly and collectively

00:08:03.760 are in a small or large collective try to take the rights away from men there is something they can do

00:08:10.000 about that but i i do think that would require somehow taking weaponry out of the picture i mean

00:08:18.780 but you don't need to take weaponry out of the picture weapons require strength to use those who

00:08:23.360 are strong can use them better not only that field equipment weighs a lot right equipment in general

00:08:29.340 weighs a lot you also have the endurance problem the skeletal problems you have the heat regulation

00:08:34.920 problems the distinctions between men and women are incredible and so when you look at a force

00:08:40.320 applicator men have a monopoly on force by the way i can demonstrate this pretty easy western nations

00:08:45.760 have become more egalitarian than they ever have been you would agree right yeah but who still stays

00:08:50.600 predominantly in these enforcement positions i mean predominantly yes but women well obviously i i totally

00:08:57.340 agree with you that there is a physical difference between men and women and they are stronger but i do think

00:09:01.600 that the gap is significantly smaller with weaponry i don't think it's fully you know brought to a

00:09:09.480 brought to an equal playing field but in other words if men have weapons and women have weapons women

00:09:15.040 lose i mean yeah but there are women in law enforcement there are female prison wardens co's things like

00:09:22.160 that so and they are and while there are some exceptional women i agree who can be inside of positions like

00:09:28.980 this or some exceptional women maybe one day we'll have that first female navy seal maybe it'll happen

00:09:34.120 okay it hasn't happened yet but one day there will be an exceptional navy seal badass gi jane type chick

00:09:41.140 who can wear the skin tight leather with the hand grenades and do the ninja kicks but those are going to be

00:09:48.580 exceptional cases i agree that they are exceptional cases but you're saying so men are the default

00:09:54.560 enforcement arm of of rights of legal rights but there there are women in those positions so i i fail to see

00:10:01.600 and they are men can take them away from them collectively whenever they so choose and they have no recourse

00:10:06.160 but men always do which is force collectively sure but i mean there there are still exceptions to that so that there are

00:10:11.040 women in those positions and by and large men are stronger than women but there are weak men and there are strong women

00:10:17.440 and i i i feel that i mean the exceptions to those cases do present a problem but even weaker men even

00:10:24.880 much weaker men are still usually stronger than even average women and this is the this is the problem

00:10:31.600 with equalization for instance if you were to have a prison okay or you know let's try this a different

00:10:38.560 way let's say that you were a general in the armed forces and you had a special forces unit which was

00:10:47.120 compiled of 100 women and one that was compiled of 100 men and you had a job which you absolutely had

00:10:55.200 to get done it was critical it was mission critical who'd you turn it over to i would turn it over to a

00:11:01.120 man you turn it over to the men because they would be much more excellent performing those duties than

00:11:06.320 women right yeah and i i can totally agree with you on that but i do think that the presence of women in

00:11:13.360 women in those positions i mean they are present in those positions and also i guess i guess my

00:11:21.920 question would be do you think that the enforcement of rights is the most important part of like a

00:11:27.840 well-functioning society like do you think that is the enforcement of law and order is critical to

00:11:34.000 society so the greek said without law there is no freedom right you would agree that that's probably true

00:11:41.360 i don't see how you could really descend into anarchy and have actual freedom it would just end up in

00:11:47.280 like a slave slave oppressive you know this type of thing yeah so yeah i do think that law and the

00:11:54.160 enforcement of law and rights and the enforcement of rights or duties and the enforcement of duties

00:11:59.760 are critical to a society so while i don't believe in the construction of rights because they don't really

00:12:05.440 exist absent force i do understand that having some kind of core belief towards something can be

00:12:11.360 useful in keeping a cohesive society together but i don't believe that women are capable of doing that

00:12:17.520 and so because they're not equal they they cannot be equal because of this i don't understand why they

00:12:24.400 should have equal rights to vote why they should have equal rights to men if they are not in the position

00:12:30.400 where they can actually enforce their own rights and only men can i guess i fail to see how okay

00:12:37.440 women cannot physically enforce their own rights leads to because women should not have should not have

00:12:45.920 equal rights or um an egalitarian society is not possible because i mean even the way you said it

00:12:53.040 law and order is only one critical aspect of a well-functioning society so if that's only one critical

00:12:58.400 aspect then how can you say well this this one aspect and the fact that men are going to dominate

00:13:05.040 this one aspect they're not going to be the soul you know that women will exist but men will dominate

00:13:10.320 this one aspect how how can you say that that because they're always going to be making the appeal

00:13:15.680 to men for those rights and there's no way around it and so men can collectively take the rights away

00:13:22.080 from from women period they just can there's nothing that women can do about this so egalitarianism in

00:13:28.720 and of itself would just be an illusion it would literally be a lie you would you would be walking

00:13:33.760 around saying that you're equal with men you're you have um you have equality with them but at the same

00:13:39.440 time necessarily having to appeal to them for that equality which it makes it contradictory right how do

00:13:46.080 you appeal to the thing for equality while at the same time saying that you're equal so you you'd think

00:13:51.520 that the fact that women have to appeal to men for their equality means that there shouldn't be an

00:13:57.040 attempt at like an egalitarian society there should well what is the attempt it's a it would be an

00:14:02.000 illusion right men can just collectively take it away but women cannot do that to the opposition only

00:14:07.040 men can so men can take away men's rights and men can take away women's rights and men can give men

00:14:11.840 rights men can give women rights but women can't give men rights nor take men's rights away

00:14:16.960 i mean if i i just think it's easier to say that our system of of rights i mean i know that

00:14:25.040 i agree with you that our rights are sort of a construct but we do have in practice legal rights

00:14:32.080 i i find it hard to just say that like well that's all an illusion because we're living it every day i

00:14:36.000 mean we have legal rights if you commit a crime you go to jail i mean that is all a social construct but

00:14:40.800 but but we're living it i mean you're talking about a descriptor of is and ought it is true we go

00:14:49.840 through life um with all sorts of kind of presuppositions and suppositions which aren't true

00:14:56.880 all the time to get through the day we do this all the time for instance there's no real reason for you

00:15:01.920 to go in and turn your car on and think it's going to start except that you're a pattern recognition

00:15:07.200 machine and it's always started and so you assume that it's going to start if you had some pre-knowledge

00:15:11.920 that it wouldn't you would have taken the steps to make sure that the next day you got in and

00:15:16.000 it would start right everything that you do in your life as you're going through it is built on

00:15:21.280 all sorts of unfounded suppositions that probably aren't true at all but we still act as though they

00:15:27.760 are in order to have a society but eventually what ends up happening is we do have to face down

00:15:34.080 actual facts and actual reality and in actual reality if you end up with too much internal

00:15:42.640 conflict based around this egalitarian system what's actually going to prevent men from just

00:15:49.600 taking away women's rights altogether there doesn't seem like there's anything that would stop that from

00:15:54.240 happening i mean that would that would require like widespread like mass violence by men against

00:16:02.240 women why would it require any violence i mean okay because if you're saying it wouldn't require

00:16:07.280 violence then you're giving some kind of like you're admitting that this system of legality that

00:16:12.480 we have has some kind of like no i'm just saying that if if it is true that men can by use of force

00:16:21.920 and i think most women know this could do this why if they decided to do you think that women would

00:16:27.920 what what do you think they could do about it take to the street with their little signs and say please

00:16:32.400 don't but i i don't to me that sounds like you're saying it would be an act of violence how else how

00:16:38.240 are men going to take away women's rights without without violence if men collectively tomorrow say

00:16:43.920 women have no more rights what are the options left to women i mean legal political exercises and in that

00:16:54.320 case you say men are stronger they could exercise violence against women to take their rights away

00:17:00.160 they may not need to exercise any violence all they may need to do is just say you no longer have

00:17:04.480 the rights and women really just can't do anything about it they could maybe collectivize with signs

00:17:09.440 but what happens if they're just ignored or laughed at or scoffed or mocked and they can't really take

00:17:14.480 violence to men so in political action right there is always what is called the violent alternative

00:17:21.520 alternative and men can always appeal to that alternative it's a terrible thing i'm not

00:17:26.160 advocating for that i'm just i'm giving a descriptor for what is true this is something which can be

00:17:31.040 appealed to for men but only for men women can only do small scale so even even in kind of most the

00:17:38.720 craziest feminist you can think of the best they were able to do is like send some boom booms in the

00:17:43.840 mail and this kind of thing but they couldn't really push back against a structure of strength it's it

00:17:49.760 wasn't really possible for them to do you see the voting gap as it begins to widen as men become more

00:17:55.280 right-wing and women more left-wing what happens eventually if what is considered the patriarch has

00:18:00.880 been pushed against just decides one day no no more rights for women i think in that case there would

00:18:09.120 there would be political opposition and i think i think there would be widespread collective political

00:18:15.280 opposition from women and if you say that's futile because men can just why where's the widespread

00:18:23.920 political opposition in the middle east where they have no rights they're not allowed the thing is you

00:18:31.280 presuppose that women will be allowed to go out and have picket signs or presuppose that women can go out

00:18:37.440 in protest presuppose that women will still be able to have the same functions they have now if men collectively

00:18:43.280 say no and i'm telling you i don't think that that's the case everything down from the husband

00:18:49.360 inside of the home to the boyfriend inside of the home to the actual structure of government

00:18:54.800 all enforcing collectively or even a small collection maybe 10 percent i think women can't really do

00:19:01.760 anything i mean i would agree they can't do anything physically but that would require men to

00:19:07.520 collectively decide to use violence against women and i i don't i don't believe that i don't believe

00:19:14.320 that most men would be willing to use violence against women for political then if that's true

00:19:21.200 why the hell did you need feminism because i i don't think that it was about violence i think that

00:19:28.080 it was about a lack of lack of political rights if if i can use that word well then but we already

00:19:35.760 entitlements we've already discerned that rights are force so if we've discerned that rights are force

00:19:40.880 and you say that we want more rights it means that you want to have more force

00:19:46.560 sure so then you needed feminism right the feminism was a way for you to have force

00:19:52.080 yeah i mean i think that social movements like collective political action can approximate

00:19:59.600 for sure but what do you need force for if you're saying that men collectively would not move against

00:20:05.440 women using force why the hell do you need force then i think that no i think that they would

00:20:11.440 collectively move against women using force i'm saying well then you just contradicted yourself

00:20:15.360 political i'm talking more in a political force sense i don't think that men what is political

00:20:21.760 force i think the use of like rights things like that like restricting rights restricting

00:20:29.280 mobility disenfranchisement that's all force it's all backed up with force but i don't think it always

00:20:34.080 necessarily translates to a one-to-one it is force because absent force law has no bite so if somebody

00:20:42.720 says it is the law that you not do x but there's no enforcement if you break the law is that a law

00:20:49.440 i mean is enforcement always violence like is enforcement enforcement always must be backed

00:20:54.880 with physical violence for a law or for any type of right period maybe backed with the threat of but

00:21:01.200 do you think that all enforcement takes place solely through the threat of physical violence

00:21:05.200 yes you think there are social mechanisms all all of it it has to be backed with the physical prowess

00:21:12.720 of enforcement otherwise why couldn't it just be ignored i mean i think that there are things

00:21:19.440 beyond the threat of physical violence that can i i agree with you that the threat of physical violence

00:21:23.280 is what backs the majority of our you know our laws but do you not think there's also a social aspect of

00:21:31.520 like appropriateness and like wanting to be perceived in a certain way wanting to keep with

00:21:38.800 norms customs about social norms yeah sure but if there's a violation to a social norm absent a law

00:21:51.280 that's one of the problems we have in society now right which is there's no law which prevents you

00:21:56.720 from moving outside of a social norm so if that is the case then nothing's preventing you so let's say

00:22:04.240 for instance there's no law which says that it's illegal to go out and dig up a dead body and do a

00:22:10.080 dirty deed to it okay you agree that there will be people who do yes yes okay but wouldn't it be better

00:22:18.000 for us to have a law and force saying if you do this there's going to be severe punishments for you

00:22:23.920 yeah yeah so the social norm itself is not the enforcement it's always the force okay yeah i can agree

00:22:29.840 with that i guess i still am stuck on how that means that we we can't have an egalitarian society

00:22:40.000 okay i guess i should ask you would have the illusion of egalitarianism but you never actually

00:22:45.440 have egalitarianism that will always be a product of the mind and never a product of objective reality

00:22:52.160 okay so is your view of feminism that it is

00:22:54.960 is pointless because there can never be egalitarianism well so you just earlier and no

00:23:04.320 offense i'm just going to point this out so that you know you spoke out of two sides of your mouth

00:23:07.920 you said i don't believe that men would collectively come together to use some kind of force against

00:23:13.920 women but when i asked why would you need feminism then you said well because we need to have some kind

00:23:18.800 of force to protect ourselves from the patriarchy well both of these things cannot be true at the same

00:23:24.800 time this is where we come to what we call schrodinger's feminist which is i'm a strong empowered

00:23:30.640 woman but also a victim at the same exact time and it can't really be both it has to be one or it has

00:23:36.640 to be the other so if you're a strong empowered woman and what it is that you want is some type

00:23:42.480 of equal force to push back against the patriarchy i think i've we've just discovered that that's not

00:23:47.600 even a possibility so what's really going on is you want some sort of political power right but

00:23:55.440 you can't enforce the political power well that is and i when i say that equal force to push back

00:24:00.880 against the patriarchy i mean political power because i don't think that men will collectively

00:24:07.040 decide to use violence against women so they do it all over the world all the time well yes on an

00:24:13.360 individual level i don't know on a collective level okay so what do you think the solution to

00:24:19.440 that should be for women well i think the first solution is you should understand that what you're

00:24:24.000 doing is you're fighting the patriarchy by at the same time appealing to it so if you and i can agree

00:24:30.720 that force itself is political power and that force itself is always going to be monopolized by men

00:24:39.040 then you've described a patriarchal system if that is the case and you say you want more political

00:24:44.160 power then you are actually appealing to a patriarchal system to give it to you because

00:24:48.960 they're going to be the enforcers right i can agree with that i don't think it's good i don't

00:24:52.800 i don't enjoy so why not just have patriarchy if that's the case that you're appealing to it anyway

00:24:58.240 in order to enforce your rights inside of it why not just submit to patriarchy because i i mean

00:25:05.040 me personally i would rather not i would not like to see the outcomes from from a system that works

00:25:11.280 like that i would not like to be i wouldn't like to see women i guess in general relegated to the

00:25:17.840 domestic sphere i wouldn't like to see the levels of when you say the domestic sphere what do you mean

00:25:23.600 the home like child rearing i me personally i have no problem with that that is that's what i see

00:25:30.400 in my future because i don't what could be more important than that for me no for nothing for

00:25:38.000 women i mean for women i think that should be up to the individual woman yeah i know understand that

00:25:43.120 you think um well go ahead i didn't mean to cut you off that's okay i think that the key here is not

00:25:49.680 to say that that is bad but i do think that sort of socially enforcing that that is the only opportunity

00:25:57.680 for women is bad because not every woman will be fulfilled by that and will be happy in that

00:26:02.480 position what job do you think is more important in society than being a mother

00:26:08.880 i would agree that being a mother is the most important then how are you relegating women

00:26:13.120 to the home if the most important societal job we can give them is motherhood

00:26:18.400 how is it a demotion how is it even even a gilded cage is a cage like if a woman doesn't want to do

00:26:24.400 that well but there's no that's relegation there's never been women women are not forced to stay at

00:26:31.120 home and give birth they're not always been able to work they've always been able to work there's

00:26:34.880 definitely social pressure and they're good we need social pressure hey sean thank you for the

00:26:43.600 gifted 20 memberships appreciate it go ahead continue yeah i i would disagree that we need social

00:26:49.440 pressure to keep i mean i'm sure you'll reference the decline in birth rate and decline in the birth

00:26:55.040 rates birth rate i don't really know but i think that it's a biological impulse to have kids i don't

00:27:01.680 think people are going to stop having kids um but they're stopping having kids maybe at a slower rate

00:27:07.920 no at a huge rate like south korea you know what the birth rate is there and i've heard in south korea

00:27:13.040 it's it's a it's below it's a movement it's below single replacement yeah and i've heard that's an

00:27:18.400 intentional movement on the part of women which i mean that could be an example of women exerting

00:27:22.080 force i thought we didn't need pressure pressure to make people have kids because people are going

00:27:27.360 to continue to reproduce you just said no matter what and then you point to a political movement

00:27:31.520 where they stop okay no i'll give you that i guess but in that case women are women are successfully

00:27:38.960 exerting some kind of political pressure but what happens if men in south korea say

00:27:45.440 no i mean that would involve like forcible that would involve rape i mean why would it involve rape

00:27:54.160 how else could you force a woman well they could do it through incentivization they could just say

00:27:58.320 things like you can't work so you have to get married if you want to survive in this world they

00:28:03.040 could do things like that where it would be coercion but would not be that we can't say that

00:28:08.720 word by the way but essay it would not be essay so what i'm saying is that there's all sort of

00:28:12.960 incentives which can be put down so you appeal to a woman's biology and the fact that she wants to

00:28:18.240 have children but you also dismiss indoctrination and there's a huge indoctrination program that tells

00:28:23.840 women to have a nest egg before they get married and so their early years in their 20s they're not

00:28:30.400 having kids and they wait until they're in their 30s average marriage age now 31 i believe in the

00:28:36.400 united states over 30 that's not really very good for child rearing wouldn't you agree no i don't why

00:28:43.920 is that not good because your most fertile years are behind you but if if we're still having children

00:28:49.760 at replacement rates we're not we're way under do you think that's because women are waiting

00:28:56.400 later to have children yeah well it's because of materialism so the reason that this occurs is

00:29:01.120 i'll explain it to you so you know if you can have the procreative function right and all the fun

00:29:09.840 that comes with it without the side effect of children a lot of people will opt to do that

00:29:15.840 because of hedonism and because of materialism there's no the society is devolving into nihilism

00:29:22.880 because there's no greater pursuit for people to have religiosity is bashed at every corner

00:29:27.840 god is considered to be something which is an outlandish fairy tale and there's no higher

00:29:32.240 authority for people so materialist nihilism is what society's being reduced to so people are looking

00:29:38.320 at a sense of self more than they're looking at an extension of family i i guess i'm curious where

00:29:45.920 i'm curious about a couple things where is the proof that this is happening and that there is this big

00:29:50.720 information campaign to keep women from having children in their 20s and also where is it coming

00:29:56.400 from well the original so all the original feminists who are on the uh suffragette side if you go back

00:30:05.040 and you read their writings you can find them in a great book called occult feminism they express over

00:30:10.240 and over again that the nuclear family is the most dangerous part of women's liberation because it

00:30:15.840 it breeds a patriarchal system and so that is what they were pushing against was a nuclear family

00:30:21.840 they did not like that at all so that's proof one proof two is that i can go back to the 90s when

00:30:31.200 the united states was really pushing student loans especially towards women and in the 2000s towards

00:30:36.640 women and you saw the expression of feminism in what would be considered i think third wave at that time

00:30:42.960 telling women to wait until later in life until they had something to fall back on because their

00:30:48.080 husbands were going to leave them it does happen well the husbands aren't initiating the divorces

00:30:54.400 wives are initiating the divorce women do absolutely initiate divorce but do you think that it's

00:30:58.880 there's no fault in in that in those instances do you think men were completely innocent well it's good

00:31:04.640 that you bring up no fault i'm talking about no fault right because um no of course there's going to be

00:31:11.440 times where men are at fault for the relationship dissolving but when we look i mean we can look at

00:31:16.720 these on a case-by-case basis and we do so we have all sorts of attorneys and judges and um you know

00:31:24.240 polling groups who talk to these various divorced couples who they track and who they get remarried to

00:31:29.760 and the number one reason that they're getting married is or divorced is irreconcilable differences

00:31:35.680 and oftentimes there's no abuse there's no drug use there's no abandonment there's no nothing she

00:31:41.360 just doesn't like him anymore and decides to move on to somebody else so when we look at the data that's

00:31:48.240 what we're seeing what we're not seeing is that men are out you know rampantly cheating or beating up their

00:31:53.680 their wives or doing any of this and the reason it's so terrible that they initiate divorce for self is

00:31:59.600 because most of the time they have children in these relationships and it does huge damage to the

00:32:05.440 kids and so this is what i mean by selfish materialism i mean i guess i still fail to see

00:32:12.720 like the proof that there is an orchestrated campaign like of nihilism and of because i mean like there

00:32:19.120 there's been nihilism i mean the word nihilism wasn't invented in the last 10 years like there

00:32:24.480 well i guess i'm curious why you think this is like a brand new thing well so it's a it's a fruition

00:32:32.720 of the it is true old philosophy but it is a fruition of it now you do see a rejection of god all over

00:32:40.160 the united states and a push from the secularists to remove god from any sort of public sphere you would

00:32:46.000 have to agree that that's true they want to every every symbol out of court they want god off the dollar

00:32:51.280 bill they want god out of schools any place that there is any reference to god is there is a

00:32:57.920 secular i'm probably not the person to ask i really haven't seen this happening but i'm not

00:33:01.920 you haven't seen that happening i have not seen this happening i think you haven't seen the endless

00:33:05.920 demands to tear down the 10 commandments from various courthouses you haven't seen that's one

00:33:10.720 thing that i really do think is that i think a lot of this stuff is happening more on the internet

00:33:15.840 than it's happening in real life i really know this is happening in real life i think that these culture

00:33:19.760 war debates are really happening more in people's heads than they are in in real life because i mean

00:33:24.800 i they put a statue of baphomet up in san francisco as satanics that that was not on the internet that

00:33:32.240 was in real life they put a baphomet statue up and all over all over the united states satanists will

00:33:39.440 do this as a mockery to christianity and endlessly secularist demand that the ten commandments be taken

00:33:45.840 down in courtrooms that religious symbolism be rejected all over the united states this is not

00:33:51.200 an internet phenomenon i think the the internet phenomenon is the interpretation of it because

00:33:57.680 satanists i i do not believe actually believe in satan i think they don't exactly it's they're

00:34:04.080 secularists yeah that makes my point though but if you guys don't mind i will bring it back to the

00:34:09.760 topic at hand oh yeah sorry yeah it's fine it's fine uh why don't we do this so how do you guys each

00:34:18.000 what's your definition of feminism and we'll start with you um well i think we agreed on the definition

00:34:23.920 that feminism is to promote the equality of men and women um and that the entailment of that is a

00:34:34.400 destruction of patriarchal systems sure yeah and you do consider yourself a feminist correct i do okay

00:34:41.520 and you mentioned the patriarchy one of the tenants at least of my understanding of feminism is the

00:34:48.640 patriarchy theory there's a patriarchy uh do you agree with that that there is a patriarchy yeah she

00:34:54.720 agrees yes yeah and so can you give us a definition of what the patriarchy is in my understanding and

00:35:01.680 then andrew you provide one too i think that the patriarchy colloquially describes like a male

00:35:08.000 dominated culture male dominated systems um i think like technically it's just like patrilineal descent

00:35:14.560 i the father yeah but i think that yeah i would say male dominated culture male dominated systems um

00:35:23.360 i think it's just kind of used to describe yeah the ways that men have been in power

00:35:28.640 describing ordered systems where men are in charge yeah do you agree with that andrew and under the uh

00:35:35.280 patriarchy i mean do you view that women are oppressed i think absolutely globally i i don't know

00:35:43.840 how much i feel that that applies in the united states today but globally absolutely

00:35:51.040 and andrew do you think that women are oppressed in the

00:35:53.920 united states what we would consider oppression to be right well let's start there how do you how do

00:35:59.760 you define oppression i would say probably the unjust like wielding of power by one group over

00:36:09.120 another to to prevent them from acting in their free will i'm sorry i have to do this but i do have

00:36:13.760 to get a little bit into your presupposition there um what is justice i mean that that is a that's a

00:36:20.000 philosophical debate i i well but you're appealing to it yeah i would say that justice is

00:36:28.320 at its very like core definition probably just closer to the definition of equality like equal

00:36:35.760 treatment so anything which is unequal is oppression

00:36:40.320 depends on what you mean by unequal i guess like if two people you believe that egalitarian perform

00:36:51.360 unequally like on a test like no i don't think that would be oppression so then okay so then i what is

00:36:57.360 justice you know honestly i don't think i have a good definition for for justice in the in the i'm

00:37:04.400 curious what your definition of justice is well for me i would i would make an appeal to uh christian

00:37:11.920 ethics in order to make a determination of what is or is not just but in your case right you don't have

00:37:18.880 anything that you can appeal to do you you just appeal to what nothing but i mean don't you think

00:37:24.720 that's kind of a cop-out that you can say oh well well god told me what what justice is it's christian

00:37:29.200 ethics but you can't how how could you ever say that it's my justification is not good enough

00:37:36.960 for you who has no justification that is fair if you're talking about me directly um for all

00:37:44.320 all of it will reduce to um essentially relativism from your end absent any type of religion it's going

00:37:51.120 to be relativism there is no moral standard you're going to be able to appeal to i think that's true

00:37:56.320 okay go ahead and try to appeal to a standard that's not relativism like a moral standard i think

00:38:04.400 minimizing harm that's relative what's harm

00:38:09.520 well yeah i would take more thought but i mean what what is the christian like moral standard the

00:38:15.920 christian moral standards divine command and this is based on um the understanding that knowledge itself

00:38:23.680 cannot exist absent god it's an x to y argument so it would say that the argument it would be

00:38:34.240 rose donated two hundred dollars brian this layout is awesome these would be great to consider having

00:38:41.200 more of with you mediating slash asking questions between two guests thank you rose yes i i want to do

00:38:48.960 more of these whatever debate formats we've done a few in the past and uh thank you rose appreciate the

00:38:54.960 tts continue okay so in in any case regardless of what i would appeal to even if i said i appeal to a

00:39:04.640 flying spaghetti monster in the sky i really don't have to justify that if that there's no justification on

00:39:12.320 your end for what is a moral standard i don't have to justify mine then either why would i need to if

00:39:18.160 we're both just in relativism then anything that i assert as being correct is just as valid as anything

00:39:25.040 you assert as being correct okay but i mean so would you agree that what i'm asserting anything i can

00:39:31.600 assert can be just as correct as what you're if it's absent a justification there just wouldn't be a

00:39:36.000 reason for me to justify so then what i would need to do then is appeal to force and so if i were to

00:39:42.080 make an appeal to force we've already established that we have the monopoly on force and you can't

00:39:48.000 make a moral argument because you're a relativist where are we left i mean so do you just count

00:39:55.200 any secular hang on answer my question sorry ask the question again where are you left if you're

00:40:00.640 a relativist you can only appeal to relativism my world view has to be just as valid as yours

00:40:06.320 so then therefore we both appeal to physical force what else could we ever appeal to

00:40:12.640 i honestly i am not totally sure how how we get from there to to appealing to physical force

00:40:20.720 because what else could you appeal to other than just an enforcement tier preferences

00:40:26.320 appeal to for what to for any for any ought every ought would just become force you would just say the

00:40:32.480 things i want to see different in the world are because i want to see them different in the world

00:40:37.040 and then that would require force so you would relativism will reduce to a forced doctrine

00:40:42.560 but what i'm curious why christian ethics wouldn't also reduce to a forced doctrine well the christian

00:40:48.400 ethic can make a determination between an is and an ought so we would make the ought claim that you should not

00:40:54.640 utilize force to for what we would consider oppression which is hardly patriarchy that's not oppressive

00:41:02.160 um but yeah we would make a justified moral claim and that's how we would uh move forward in a moral

00:41:10.240 conversation or in not but from your case it's total and complete relativism and you know it's relativism

00:41:16.400 whatever worldview you come up with absent religion it's going to reduce to relativism and so we're

00:41:21.280 just going to be right back to force again i mean what what if god isn't real then i do you think that

00:41:26.080 do you think that has any effect justification you do to appeal to force so could i not make up

00:41:32.480 my own thing that tells me what what is right and wrong and i can lead back to that it won't be

00:41:38.640 relativism because that would be relativism yeah i'm curious how that's different from saying that it

00:41:44.640 comes from god because there's philosophical proofs for god if there's no philosophical proofs that you

00:41:49.760 could present for whatever your flying spaghetti monster is then we would reject it i don't know

00:41:55.200 if we want to get it i'm i'm actually curious what the philosophical proofs that god exists would be

00:42:00.480 or you mean philosophical proof that before we get into yeah that might be a little yeah before we would

00:42:04.560 get into a philosophical proof though just remember i don't have to justify one because you don't have to

00:42:10.400 justify one so there's no in other words coming to me and asking me can you make a justification for

00:42:15.680 a thing which i can't justify why would i need to do that we would just assume immediately that you

00:42:22.000 disbelieve whatever my justification would be right because you don't hold it right so you don't believe

00:42:28.160 it so if that's the case we're still going to be reduced to just appealing to force again okay

00:42:32.560 well then that puts us on equal equal footing with our with our if it puts us on equal footing with

00:42:37.120 our ethics and both of us are appealing to force then ultimately if men decide to utilize force in

00:42:43.280 order and they have the monopoly on force you can't make a single moral argument for why that would be

00:42:47.680 wrong so you you disagree that patriarchy is oppression yeah okay but but hang on before we

00:42:52.960 move the goalpost no that was that was a question yeah no and i'll answer the question but i asked you

00:42:57.840 one first and the question i asked was if it is true that we've reduced it all to relativism if it is

00:43:04.800 true that all we can do now is appeal to force and if it is true that men have the monopoly on force

00:43:11.040 then if men used their force monopoly to oppress women you couldn't make a single moral argument

00:43:17.040 against that could you i i think that you could then do then do so i i did not come prepared with a

00:43:23.600 moral argument honestly but i think that there are philosophers and and people who are experienced

00:43:28.160 at debating but you couldn't i couldn't know okay yeah so you you disagree that patriarchy is

00:43:33.760 oppression yeah so i'm curious do you think that oppression exists do you think that people are

00:43:39.920 oppressed in in the world depends on how we want to relay what is oppression so is oppression just um

00:43:50.560 not having the entitlement of rights is that just what oppression is or is oppression

00:43:54.960 that some people have other rights than other people do i mean i

00:44:03.200 my my original definition of oppression didn't stand because i i couldn't define justice but i would

00:44:08.080 say justice is super hard to define so i'm not beating you up about that no i know i i think that

00:44:13.920 i would say it's keeping one group from being able to exercise their will in a way that another

00:44:20.960 group is not kept in that position so one group can't do the same thing they can't exercise free

00:44:25.920 will the way another group can i think that would be oppression to exercise free will in the same way

00:44:31.280 that another group can yeah sure you you can you exercise your free will the same way that congress can

00:44:36.880 no are they oppressing you well i mean maybe honestly i mean it does i think that form of like

00:44:43.520 government because otherwise does imply some form of oppression well then ultimately wouldn't you be have to

00:44:48.960 advocate for some kind of bizarre utopian utopian ideology where everybody is completely equal

00:44:55.520 there's no leadership there's no government there's no nothing wouldn't wouldn't that ultimately be what

00:45:00.880 your goal would have to be then no i mean that's fair yeah and that's it that doesn't sound like

00:45:05.600 that's what you want no not particularly yeah so if we move it back then maybe we can come up with

00:45:11.920 a different form of oppression i yeah i think it's difficult to i'm not sure what the dictionary

00:45:16.960 definition of oppression is but so if you've got your phone i don't care if you look it up if you

00:45:23.600 want to have a working definition we can go off okay um but so men being able to exert force whenever

00:45:33.760 they whenever they would like over women whether they choose to or not is not oppression to you you

00:45:38.400 don't think that that constitutes the oppression of women men being able to no it's a it's an

00:45:43.760 entailment of their ontology so they're able but i mean they are able to make a distinction and say

00:45:49.440 that the the what you are and what they are are different and them applying physical force to their

00:45:56.800 aims is the same thing that you appeal to so if that's true i don't see how they're oppressing you

00:46:02.720 what you're trying to do actually would be the oppressive thing right because you want to take

00:46:06.320 them and have them enforce your will i mean i think that it would be there's an unequal amount

00:46:14.080 of force there there is that was but that's baked into the pie of what is it's baked in i mean how

00:46:20.480 that could still be oppression right i mean like i don't see how it's oppressive for men to move into

00:46:25.600 men's interests and understand that force that they have a monopoly on force it doesn't mean that they

00:46:30.560 couldn't be benevolent towards women but that doesn't mean that they have to give them equality either

00:46:34.880 nor that not giving them equality means that they're oppressed i don't see how that's oppression

00:46:40.880 unless we're using not at least not by your well i guess by your definition it would but basically

00:46:45.920 everything would be like if you and i don't have the same tattoo parlor i guess that would be oppression

00:46:50.720 because it's unequal i don't know i i'm not saying i'm saying that would be the outcome the the cause

00:46:56.880 of oppression would be the exertion of force that leads to one group not being able to exert

00:47:02.160 you know the same same amount of have the same amount of rights exert then we're just back to

00:47:08.160 force again so then what it's really a fight about is force is that feminism really is you wanting to

00:47:14.880 use the force of the patriarchy to attack itself yeah i mean i think that's kind of inevitable

00:47:20.640 i i don't think that disproves like the goal of feminism or or yeah but why should they do that

00:47:27.680 why should they i mean i guess women's interest women's self-interest if men have a self-interest to

00:47:36.080 exert their will and you know use their biological strength over women then can you not say that

00:47:43.600 women have a vested interest in pushing back against that and trying to claim some kind of

00:47:48.960 autonomy some kind you could say that but you're going to end up with this problem which is if that's

00:47:54.160 true and it's just a game of force between the sexes with the weaker sex attempting to utilize

00:47:59.200 the stronger sex to enforce their rights then you would have no complaints if you're trying to utilize

00:48:04.640 force for your aims for them to use force for theirs and if that's the case then you're at a huge

00:48:11.760 disadvantage if they ever decide we're going to because your moral argument goes out the window and the

00:48:18.400 reason that women and feminism is has been so bad for them in the vote is because they used to have

00:48:25.360 a moral high ground and now they're a political tool because they have to use force they have to use force

00:48:30.960 for their political ideology and they never had to before the vote but now that they're involved in politics

00:48:36.320 they're literally voting on force doctrine because that's what law is so it sounds like women women are at

00:48:42.240 a disadvantage in in in politics well it sounds like if you really wanted them to not be at a disadvantage

00:48:49.200 you would remove them from politics because then they could have an actual moral argument but i mean

00:48:54.320 how can you say oh you're not at a disadvantage in politics if you're not a part of politics at all

00:48:58.960 you're not advantaged or disadvantaged well no they were a part of politics it's just that they didn't

00:49:03.120 have the right to vote so they still had women's issues clean air uh clean water education health there

00:49:10.880 was all sorts of women's issues but they would make moral justifications for those issues and they

00:49:15.200 had a moral high ground because they didn't they weren't appealed to as a voting bloc for instance

00:49:20.640 um 1920 that's the 19th amendment okay that was never voted on there was no referendum by women

00:49:30.000 for their own vote now imagine the irony the irony of women getting the right to vote but they refused to

00:49:37.680 actually allow them to vote on it yeah i mean it is ironic i would agree it's not only ironic but the

00:49:44.560 reason that they didn't want them to vote on it is because everywhere that they tried those

00:49:49.040 referendums women voted against it because they didn't want to be political tools because they knew

00:49:53.760 that that would utilize they would have to utilize a forced doctrine of men so they would have to vote

00:49:58.720 that men enforce whatever their will was that's why they didn't want it that was one of the primary

00:50:04.960 anti-suffragette arguments and so that's that's why that's why when i look at egalitarianism and

00:50:11.760 equality i see it as great evil because i see people who basically want to appeal and utilize force

00:50:21.520 against these various groups in order to enforce their will because they can't enforce it themselves

00:50:26.640 i mean i i guess i don't see how that makes it evil it sounds like you don't really think that the

00:50:33.840 use of force is necessarily evil or the threat of force is necessarily evil no and then neither do

00:50:38.720 you because you've just you've just said a thousand times that you'll utilize it to get whatever it is

00:50:43.680 that you want yeah i don't think it's necessary i don't think it's evil i think that so why is

00:50:49.520 egalitarianism evil well because egalitarianism is trying to convince women that they're equal to men

00:50:56.720 while at the same time they have to appeal to men for their equality it's it's a not only a

00:51:02.160 contradiction but it's insanity because it's ultimately sets them up for failure believing

00:51:07.360 that they're equal with a patriarchal system which could at any time take away whatever their

00:51:13.040 perception is of of uh of equality they can just overnight gone and there's not really anything

00:51:19.920 women can do about it it's insane to me to think that um a bunch of rich industrialists were able to

00:51:27.200 convince women and they didn't even really convince them they convinced congressmen which how you got the

00:51:32.000 19th but a bunch of rich industrialists convinced women that they're they were best served being

00:51:36.880 men and they're not they're not best served being men they're not best served uh out in the workforce

00:51:43.440 they're really that's not their function never really has been their function and they're just kind

00:51:48.160 of pretending but i mean who's to say that how can you be the the the judge of that that what what

00:51:57.040 best serves women is i mean because right now we can look at the current society which we live in

00:52:03.520 and we can understand how we got here and we can understand we'll start with the birth rate which

00:52:09.440 you talk about quite a bit okay being in the toilet that's due to anti-natalist feminist policy and also

00:52:15.440 but how can you how can you say that the birth rate declining is not due to pollutants in the water

00:52:20.560 it's not due to the way we eat which is it's due to birth control but i mean how can you say that

00:52:25.440 there's because we have all the data that shows that it's what what date what data shows that that

00:52:30.560 eliminates all confounding factors of of pollution of because if you take a scale there's actually a

00:52:36.480 scale and you can look it up now on your phone if you want to but you can actually watch when birth

00:52:40.800 control is introduced in the 70s and you can see the birth rates go right and marriage nothing about

00:52:47.600 causation massive decline and the same thing with abortion so the thing is that's that still that says

00:52:54.160 nothing about causation okay so any so all cause all causation is a correlate by the way yeah so if we

00:53:00.960 have strong enough correlates like for instance oh i don't know birth control being a thing which

00:53:07.120 prevents birth that seems like a really strong core in fact could you think of a single stronger

00:53:12.800 correlate than birth control for why we might have a birth decline of one yeah i i do think that pollution

00:53:19.280 like pollution plastics yes come on pollution plastic pollution yes plastic pollution i do think

00:53:25.440 that male fertility is on the decline because of of chemicals you think that plastic pollution i mean

00:53:33.200 can you just prove it is more hang on i just want to make sure i get this right first um you think that

00:53:39.200 plastics in the water and the plastics inside of your system have more to do with the falling birth rate

00:53:46.080 than women on birth control yeah because i think most women get off of birth control eventually and

00:53:51.200 start having kids when i i don't think honestly i don't think that it's that much later than it used

00:54:01.120 to be used to be when birth control is a new advent that's something modern oh you mean so like not okay

00:54:09.280 the 1970s i guess yeah no they were still having babies in their 20s this the the pill was not as

00:54:15.920 widespread as it is now but i mean yeah obviously birth control would be the much stronger correlate

00:54:21.840 than plastics plastics i mean i disagree plastics and male fertility you're saying that that it drops

00:54:28.320 male fertility to the point where they can't get women impregnated anymore i mean if all you have to say

00:54:34.400 is there's a strong correlation i bet you could put put up a graph that shows the concentration of

00:54:40.800 plastic in the water or concentration of whatever forever chemicals in the water or in food or whatever

00:54:46.960 and you could do the same birth rate graph christinated two hundred dollars she said pollution because she

00:54:53.840 wants to win an argument she's not interested in getting to the actual truth thank you again for

00:55:00.240 making feminists look crazy these clips are going to be great i do think that's the actual truth i

00:55:08.320 i genuinely believe that there are more factors to the declining birth rates than than birth control

00:55:13.600 because i think i mean and i don't think you can really prove that it is birth control because

00:55:17.760 like i was going to say you could put up the same graph of the concentration of whatever in the water

00:55:23.040 and the birth rate and i'm sure it would look just as close so i mean really what i'm curious is how

00:55:28.240 you let's test this let's test the logic and see if that's the case if all women went off of birth

00:55:34.480 control tomorrow and had the same amount of sex they're having right now what do you think would

00:55:38.960 happen to pregnancies they would go up how much probably by quite a bit like how much do you think

00:55:45.280 quite a bit is i have no idea honestly probably a lot now uh let us assume for a second that we

00:55:53.280 consumed the exact same amount of plastic that we are right this second and they all went off of it

00:55:58.240 tomorrow you're still going to see a huge huge massive increase aren't you yeah yeah okay so now

00:56:07.120 if we were to retract this and say okay also pregnancies don't equal birth rate because who's

00:56:12.080 to say that all those women wouldn't go out and abort the children okay but but assuming let's assume there

00:56:20.560 was no abortion okay okay if there was no birth and by the way abortion is birth control that is

00:56:26.320 a form of birth control it's literally lumped in with it but we were talking specifically about the

00:56:30.080 pill yeah so if it is true that if tomorrow all of them went off of birth control had the same amount

00:56:36.320 of sex they would all start getting pregnant because they would then your argument that plastics are

00:56:41.840 degrading men's fertility must not be a very good argument i mean i guess you could make the same

00:56:48.320 argument if you took all the plastics out of the water but all the women were still on birth control

00:56:54.400 i believe what would happen i believe they would all they would all magically get pregnant now no i but

00:56:59.520 i do believe that the birth rate probably would increase yeah but not like it would if you took

00:57:03.680 them off the so if you were to get all the plastics out of men's systems right and women were still on

00:57:09.520 birth control still no more babies right well no that's fair i'm just saying i don't but the opposite

00:57:14.080 lots more babies right so yeah okay so which is the stronger correlate i will agree with you that

00:57:19.600 it is stronger but i don't think that you can say that it's the sole cause or that there that there is

00:57:25.280 an orchestrated campaign because okay i'm i'm curious what you who is behind this anti-natalist campaign

00:57:32.080 and what is the goal to get the birth rate to decline what is the so in the 70s there was well i mean

00:57:39.120 this goes back but we'll start with what's called the population bomb have you ever heard of that book

00:57:44.080 no okay well the population bomb was a book which was written by anti-natalist who were signing the

00:57:50.560 warning bill saying that the world was going to become overpopulated and our resources were going

00:57:56.400 to be stretched thin and there was going to be mass starvation across the planet they started dropping

00:58:01.280 this book the population bomb all over the world in third world nations even and i mean it was widely

00:58:08.640 spread in first world nations and it was adhered to as a looming problem it was all over the media

00:58:16.000 and it stayed all over the media but there was a big problem and the thing is is that

00:58:22.640 while these anti-natalists were pushing for this none of the things which they claimed were going to

00:58:27.280 happen due to the high population actually happened the opposite happened it turns out the more people

00:58:31.840 you have the more hands you have and the more you can do what are uh uh basically logistics right

00:58:38.880 so you need truckers and you need boat captains and you need farmers and you need all the and what's

00:58:44.480 happened the more people we get the easier it is to get supplies to people who really need them

00:58:49.760 and that has been the consequence of a larger population that you can get your cell phone made in

00:58:55.120 china from parts which come in from all over the world centralized there they make them all in a batch they

00:59:00.400 send them to north america and all this happens within a couple of days that's a massive undertaking

00:59:06.320 that requires serious human power to do the anti-natalist movement would have curtailed all of that

00:59:14.160 and yes it has been something which has been pushed the book the population bomb which you can look

00:59:18.560 up and you can look up the entire sequence of events behind it where they were dropping it all

00:59:22.080 over the world yes there was an anti-natalism push and there still is an anti-natalism push

00:59:27.680 one form of anti-natalism is trying to convince younger women to destroy their fertile years

00:59:33.680 by going to school and going to college and getting tons and tons of student debt which they

00:59:40.080 have the majority of student debt over men it's not even close and instead of having a family when

00:59:46.160 they're young that's anti-natalism to me i yeah i guess do you think it's like orchestrated with the

00:59:54.800 intent of i mean there's no doubt that the government's handing out student loans and that

00:59:59.840 the government not only hands out student loans but really pushes the idea that women should be

01:00:05.360 in school and going for higher education rather than being stay-at-home moms i see the vilification

01:00:11.600 of the family all throughout media not only do i see the vilification of family but they make men

01:00:16.320 look like bumbling idiots inside of sitcoms and women the heroes constantly i rarely ever see

01:00:22.400 a nuclear family show anymore where there's a strong patriarchal lead and a typified american

01:00:30.560 housewife when i feel like that was always kind of rare i mean like i love lucy the the classic

01:00:36.160 american was subversive but all in the family was much closer to what an american family looked like

01:00:42.640 than i love lucy with ricky ricardo and lucille ball now i mean that's what i mean all in the family with

01:00:48.400 archie bunker was much much more akin to probably what your grandma and grandpa's relationship was

01:00:53.520 actually like so yeah no i think that there were shows like and by the way everybody tuned in for

01:00:59.040 that show for that reason because it was so much closer to the reality of the american family than

01:01:05.760 lucy goes to the chocolate factory and fucks up for the eighth time this week i know i'm just saying i

01:01:10.240 don't think these things are are new i and i don't think that they're in my opinion i don't think

01:01:14.720 they're an orchestrated like anti-natalist push i mean who's to say that some some women's realities

01:01:20.880 are not that their husbands are bumbling idiots i mean there are so many i mean hundreds and hundreds

01:01:26.640 of documents which have been published everything i mean everything from cia projects which produced

01:01:33.360 anti-natalist results and a push for anti-natalist results you might think that that's conspiratorial

01:01:38.000 even though they're all declassified and you can read them uh but yeah there's been a massive

01:01:42.640 anti-natalist movement inside of the united states pointing right at the feminists who started

01:01:47.040 feminism who said they wanted to destroy the nuclear family having children was slavery they said it all

01:01:53.280 of them said it well that would be that would be a feminist i'm saying what does the government stand

01:01:57.280 to gain from because honestly i understand what women in the in the 50s 60s and 70s stood to gain from

01:02:05.360 you know escaping i guess the nuclear family but what does the government stand to gain from

01:02:09.520 um demographic pressures and it seems like that would only there's only so much of this i can get

01:02:14.720 into because of the platform that we're on okay so i'm gonna i am gonna have to move off in a second

01:02:20.160 just because we have to yeah but i don't want to leave this hanging i want to answer it

01:02:25.840 the the federal government itself is at the mercy of lobbying groups congressmen and even presidents

01:02:34.160 are essentially bought and paid for not just here but in canada as well and in south america where you

01:02:40.400 have lobbying that goes on a different way from drug cartels but lobbyists themselves hold the keys

01:02:45.680 to the power in the united states government not the government yeah i fully agree with yeah so i mean

01:02:52.000 these lobbying groups though especially these feminist think tanks which go to congress with these

01:02:57.360 various bills one of the things that they push are abortion bills and the women's rights to have

01:03:02.400 abortion right right how is that not anti-natalist policy that's orchestrated centralized then handed

01:03:11.360 to the government because that's a human right and hand out to the but it's anti-natal well your question

01:03:17.520 though is your question was right is this a conspiracy because that's what you're alluding to is this

01:03:23.840 this sounds conspiratorial but but it's not and i just walked you through how it's not okay if you agree

01:03:30.240 that there are liberal think tanks and these liberal think tanks are coming up with new and better ways

01:03:35.200 to streamline the abortion process abortion most certainly an anti-natalist policy there's no way

01:03:41.440 you could ever make the claim that it's not it most certainly is and then they streamline that policy

01:03:47.120 to politicians who then try to codify it into law how in the world could this be conspiratorial

01:03:53.200 it's it's business as usual okay well if you if you really do if we're saying that any sort of

01:03:58.720 policy that could be construed as anti-natalist is as under the classification of anti-natalism then sure

01:04:04.560 i guess i can well what else is it it's it's a human rights issue it's a health care issue i don't think

01:04:10.320 any woman no i mean what else is anti-natalism oh what i i to me the way i think of it is like

01:04:17.200 a like an ideology what is the ideology for what do you mean isn't the ideology to stop reproduction

01:04:27.280 to me anti-natalism would be yeah like an ideology that abortion stops reproduction but it's not an

01:04:34.960 ideological thing oh it's better to have fewer children the the yeah of course it is of course

01:04:41.200 it's an ideological thing i think that the people who are are fighting for abortion rights are not

01:04:46.000 fighting for it because we should curtail reproduction i think it's because they whether

01:04:51.680 you agree with us or not because they don't want the responsibility of children no because oh women

01:04:56.080 will die they'll get unsafe abortions there's very few women very few women who have to deal

01:05:01.760 with a pregnancy which is life-threatening very that is that is not true i do not think that's true

01:05:07.120 the majority of abortions are not done due to life-threatening pregnancies i can okay i can agree

01:05:11.200 with you the majority well that's what i meant i'm sorry sure so but but nick but even then the

01:05:15.440 majority of pregnancies no we're not life-threatening just so you know but also on the abortion front

01:05:20.960 no very few abortions have anything to do with the mother saving the mother's life almost none in fact

01:05:26.800 they're the exception to the rule i'm saying the people who are promoting arguing for it these these

01:05:31.760 feminist think tanks are not they want it up to nine months they're not but they're not coming at it with

01:05:37.440 the with the ideology what else could they be coming at it with if they want an abortion at nine

01:05:42.640 months that's not health care autonomy the right to choose things things that's all but that's what

01:05:49.680 anti-natalism the ideology is about it's about autonomy it's about reducing the burden on women

01:05:57.040 and on society from other human beings this it's a reduction of the burden it requires necessarily that

01:06:03.200 you reduce the population of course abortion is anti-natalist of course the pill is anti-natalist

01:06:09.120 all of these things are anti-natalism there's no i don't know how you would argue i mean maybe

01:06:13.520 that's just my misunderstanding of what anti-natalism is yeah just one question on the abortion topic

01:06:19.680 yeah um do you think that is there a cutoff for you in terms of you know when women can get

01:06:26.080 abortion should it be up until the point of right up until birth or what what's your position there no i

01:06:31.600 would say the cutoff for me would be at the point where viability delivering is an option okay if

01:06:38.960 if there if there is a for instance if there if there was a medical emergency the you know preeclampsia

01:06:46.080 something like that if if the child can can actually be delivered i would say in that case

01:06:54.480 that you should default to delivery but there are children would you consider it murder if you didn't

01:07:00.000 no i'd know well then why so then what's i don't i don't understand this this maybe you can help me

01:07:06.880 out with this yeah why is it other than just i don't know some preference for ick that if i ask you

01:07:18.000 if the law says they can get an abortion at seven months you say no i prefer that they have it then i go

01:07:24.960 okay but let's assume the law says that they don't have to do you consider that murder you say no how

01:07:32.640 is that not i i think that murder is is the is taking of a life of a person and i really don't

01:07:40.480 think you have personhood until after birth even at nine months yeah i mean i would have to go through

01:07:46.000 the canal like what i mean what if your head doesn't quite crown and they just put a shotgun up

01:07:50.400 there like what is that is that is that i would not like to see that happen no i think i think

01:07:56.960 once their head is out of the canal yes okay but it's not quite there right it's going she's

01:08:02.640 oh you know they're about to do push and he walks in and he just blast that's not murder i want to

01:08:08.160 i'm honest i want to question that's not murder i think in that case you'd probably end up killing

01:08:12.560 the woman too but no no no it's a concentrated blast no i think that would be murder i think that

01:08:16.880 that would be murder but not the day before no i mean you have to make a distinction how is that

01:08:22.720 consistent you have to make a distinction somewhere don't you yeah do you say so you believe in like

01:08:28.240 so then when does life so then when is it a human life a human life i i think human the the

01:08:35.840 possibility of human life begins at conception i think personhood is different from from human life

01:08:40.960 and what makes a person being born that's it no i think there's there's biological aspects to

01:08:46.640 personhood absolutely so a fetus does have the biological aspects of personhood but i think

01:08:51.680 there's social aspects the ability to be a social being have interactions with other human beings okay

01:08:56.800 so people in coma aren't people people in what people in a coma aren't people no there's i mean

01:09:02.240 there's other aspects as well like rash the ability to rationalize to have an awareness of yourself

01:09:08.000 people in comas can't rationalize i mean do we take people in comas off life support all the time

01:09:12.400 yeah but we also leave them alive and if living underscore donated two hundred dollars nobody

01:09:19.120 disputes men are the physical enforcers the issue is the implication if women control men's actions

01:09:26.400 women would be the actual enforcement arm men would just be the proxy also prove god pls

01:09:34.160 uh thank you living appreciate it if you guys want to continue on with your point though go ahead yeah

01:09:39.440 um so we were discussing why it is that the day that the shotgun goes up that's no bueno that's

01:09:46.800 murder but the day before it's not yeah because i mean i think you you have to make a distinction

01:09:52.160 somewhere it's inevitable i mean you could make the distinction at the day before birth or two days

01:09:56.480 before but you're always going to run into the question of of why and i i do think that there are

01:10:01.760 certain i mean okay so if if you had the choice between there's a woman she is is like 27 weeks

01:10:12.880 pregnant and you can either perform an abortion on her personally or you could kill sorry or you could

01:10:20.080 kill a two-year-old child you have to do one or the other which which are you doing oh if you had to do

01:10:27.040 yeah you have to you have to either personally perform yeah so from from my perspective these

01:10:31.840 are morally equal they're morally equal okay so which would you do you have to do well they're

01:10:36.320 morally equal so whichever one i picked from my perspective okay you have to do one pick one well

01:10:40.960 okay i would pick the abortion and i would also pick the other one if the abortion wasn't available

01:10:45.680 yeah overachiever they're morally they're morally equivalent okay so you're asking me about a morally

01:10:50.480 equivalent question but that's why i'm asking you okay now let me ask you a question yeah okay

01:10:55.040 if spk donated two hundred dollars your baby is due in less than a month and you want to keep it

01:11:04.400 someone physically assaults you and the baby dies but you are barely hurt what should the criminal be

01:11:10.320 charged with just to show you um why that dichotomy doesn't work remember i did just answer your

01:11:18.320 question told you which one i would do right you said you would do both but okay no i'll do the abortion

01:11:22.960 okay okay now should we have her do the hang on i'm almost done okay let me just ask you the same

01:11:28.720 question back would you rather essay a two-year-old or a three-year-old what the fuck um what i'm sorry

01:11:36.160 i got it damn bro but that becomes a question of oh wait no no answer the question like i did

01:11:44.880 but if you're going to make a false bifurcation for for choice and i actually answer it it is

01:11:52.160 what do you mean it's not if you had to do x or you had to do this which one would you do i just

01:11:57.120 gave you the same question back now you answer which one would you rather that's not the same

01:12:01.120 question i didn't say it's the same question it's the same logic you're doing two different

01:12:05.200 things one is an abortion one you're doing two different things here too and what we're looking for

01:12:09.760 which one you think is more morally abhorrent either when i told you these are morally equivalent

01:12:14.880 to me you said that's not good enough you have to choose one okay so i chose one you're saying

01:12:19.680 these things are morally equivalent to me okay choose one which one i mean fair i i don't think

01:12:26.880 that see i don't think that they're morally equivalent when i asked that question if i can

01:12:31.680 pull the same answer and say they're morally equivalent yes i think that that essay is wrong

01:12:35.840 regardless of age right okay so murder is wrong regardless of age i don't think that abortion is

01:12:42.160 murder yeah i know you don't but what i'm saying is that if you offer a false dichotomy or a bifurcation

01:12:48.880 for a hypothetical just remember that i can ask one back the exact same way to test your logic i don't

01:12:54.480 i don't think it's false i don't i don't think that it is because i think that there is a difference so

01:12:58.880 maybe it was wrong to try to test you that way because you so at nine months at nine months i just want

01:13:03.920 to be clear if a nine month pregnant woman who's slated to give delivery the next day gets gunned

01:13:10.320 down uh outside and robbed that she the guy's only going to get charged with the murder of the mom

01:13:17.920 i i think that i don't really think that the murder of a pregnant person should be considered

01:13:23.440 a double homicide we do consider it that i think so but i don't agree with that i don't think that

01:13:29.920 i mean like i said you have to draw the line somewhere and for me that would be

01:13:36.080 has to come out yeah i mean do you believe in like no exceptions no abortion um i would be willing

01:13:44.320 so this may be where i deviate i would say if there's a threat to the mother's life which is

01:13:50.640 a non-objectionable threat meaning we're we can prove that this is going to cause serious problems to

01:13:56.160 the mom that in that case it could be a legitimate medical procedure i think that that's a rational

01:14:02.080 position i can understand pushback to the position but i think it's rational it seems irrational to me

01:14:08.560 that you can make the determination that a baby is fully formed conscious and everything else at nine

01:14:14.640 months but that the day before it's born can be aborted and it's not murder that's that's irrational

01:14:21.680 because at this point you are the only reason you would say it would be murder the next day is

01:14:27.200 because you have formed it that as a person but what is the distinction it still has to be a person

01:14:32.560 the day before how could you get around that logic but i think you could still find distinctions to be

01:14:36.720 made even in the case of like medical exceptions so like what is it what is a medical emergency like

01:14:41.920 where when does it become emergent can you give her yeah that's why you would need to be hyper

01:14:46.000 specific about which cases could be considered that and which ones could not but i mean there's always

01:14:50.800 going to be i think you're going to have to make an arbitrary distinction because

01:14:55.280 well arbitrary donated two hundred dollars if i end a pregnant women i can be charged for two murders

01:15:02.640 but an abortion is not a murder schrodinger's feminist schrodinger's feminist but i i don't i

01:15:08.240 don't think that it should be a double homicide so maybe some do but did we get to address the

01:15:14.480 previous that came in so so basically your baby is due in less than a month and you want to keep it this

01:15:20.560 this is from spk thank you and also thank you noah someone physically assaults you and the baby dies

01:15:26.400 but you are barely hurt what should the criminal be charged with assault of a pregnant woman but i i

01:15:33.280 do think she actually you did answer the question because you said uh that you wouldn't consider it a

01:15:38.560 double double homicide i wouldn't consider it a double homicide but i think that our legal system

01:15:42.720 does but it's still an illogical position because you are assigning it personhood just the day after

01:15:50.000 and so you would have to i don't understand what makes it not a person the day before i mean what

01:15:56.240 makes a person not able to consent to sex before the age of 18 okay so when you're talking when you're

01:16:02.800 talking hang on when you're talking about that fine i would even concede you could make a case that

01:16:07.280 that's arbitrary or without system but in this case you're agreeing that this is a life the day

01:16:11.680 after i'm asking for the distinction that doesn't make it a life the day before i mean i do think

01:16:17.440 it's somewhat arbitrary i think that you so there's nothing

01:16:22.480 i think that you have to draw the line somewhere i mean no i don't think there really is anything

01:16:27.840 but also so the only thing that makes it not a life the day before i don't believe in abortion up until

01:16:33.200 the moment of birth first of all that doesn't happen but you just said you did did i say that

01:16:37.680 you said it has to come out before oh i think it has to come out to be considered a person i don't

01:16:43.360 think that well like i said first of all i don't think that women are getting abortions up until the

01:16:48.720 not saying that they are um but that doesn't mean that there's not but i said that i don't i think he

01:16:53.920 asked and i said that i think that up until like viability basically like if it could be delivered

01:16:59.120 without complication yeah but there was a counter to that which was when i asked you okay but the

01:17:03.920 law says let's say you can have it up to nine months if they go ahead and follow the law and

01:17:09.200 do have it is that murder and you said no and so at that point you're giving it justification so you

01:17:14.640 don't really believe or whatever your belief is that they should is just arbitrary as well they

01:17:19.920 just should because i think they should right no i i mean there there is no like biological consensus

01:17:28.800 on when when personhood begins or philosophical consensus on when there is a biological well

01:17:34.480 personhood when you say personhood that doesn't mean anything that's just nonsense no it's it's a

01:17:40.720 it's a legal concept i mean we don't give rights but the reason it's nonsense is because you can never

01:17:45.120 tell me what a person is there is there's no consensus i mean that is it's consensus is not a

01:17:50.160 thing we need to appeal to to make a determination about what is true and what is not how do we

01:17:54.000 consensus in fact appealing to consensus would be an argument ad populum it would be fallacious

01:17:59.920 in and of itself you could tell me what a person is um without appealing to a majority what is it i

01:18:07.760 there i guess i think there are a number of of aspects to it i don't know but in in law you know so

01:18:14.480 you don't know i don't know hang on you don't know what a person is you don't know when a person's

01:18:18.960 formed you don't know when a person should be born but you're okay with people taking out fetuses

01:18:23.840 at the nine month that is that is that the case i don't know when they're a person i don't know

01:18:28.720 when we should stop abortions and i don't consider an abortion at nine months the day before to be

01:18:34.640 murdered you didn't say the day before but the day before no i i do think that would be that would be

01:18:38.560 distasteful to me just might just my intuition no i don't okay well then then you're not assigning

01:18:44.880 personhood but you don't know when a person is a person so at birth i don't like i don't know i

01:18:50.800 know when i know when when at birth at birth that's what and what makes them a person at

01:18:55.760 birth and not the day before the act of birth yeah what about that act suddenly gives them

01:19:01.440 the same qualia that they did not have the day before being born into the world to exist as a

01:19:06.480 person no longer you're still in the world what do you mean you're still in the world cut the cord

01:19:11.200 you're not you're not physically so the umbilical cord is the distinction between a person no that was

01:19:15.520 that was more of a so what is the distinct what makes him a person nothing there's there i i've

01:19:21.360 already said it was arbitrary so what makes him a person is you made it the fuck up that's what

01:19:25.280 makes him a person i mean yeah honestly a lot of the things in law you do have to make up some sort

01:19:29.520 of distinction just want to make sure before we move on to a different topic last thing on the uh

01:19:36.320 pro-choice versus pro-life argument andrew you might recall the state where they passed this law but

01:19:42.400 there was there's a state where they passed a law where men could be on the hook for child support

01:19:48.320 before the child was even born maybe it was kentucky if yeah i think it was um would you agree with that

01:19:55.360 that uh before the child is even born that men ought to be on the hook for child support

01:20:01.520 i no i don't think so no okay why not i i think i mean if a man has has decided

01:20:21.920 not to be a part of the of the child's life i mean in that case i guess you could say well then why should

01:20:26.560 he be responsible for child support after birth but i

01:20:34.800 i haven't really thought about i haven't thought about

01:20:37.840 this at all i didn't know what about in states where there's abortion bans do you think it'd be

01:20:43.280 more justified in that scenario yeah okay i do i actually yeah sure okay uh moving on i did have

01:20:51.440 a question so we talked a little bit about the patriarchy um and you say that there is a

01:20:57.200 patriarchy you know you i've i've often heard terms used by uh feminists like smash the patriarchy

01:21:05.440 uh not only are there criticisms it seems of the patriarchy by feminists but you also if if it does exist

01:21:12.400 and that seems to be what's asserted by feminists that you wish to uh get rid of it i guess my question

01:21:19.840 is to both of you uh well perhaps more specifically to you if there is a patriarchy what ought to replace it

01:21:30.880 i think that's a good question i i don't know if it's possible to because of basically what you

01:21:37.600 described and i do agree that men are able to exert force over women i don't know if it's really ever

01:21:42.880 possible to eliminate the patriarchy i think that if it were eliminated egalitarianism would be my

01:21:52.400 would be my preferred system where there is no one sex that is is exerting an undue amount of force

01:21:58.800 on the other and and sort of a matriarchy should there be a mature i don't i don't think i mean maybe

01:22:05.520 that would be justice but i i don't think that that would be my ideal system no i think it'll just

01:22:10.960 why would that be justice well if we're using the definition of you know writing a wrong oh

01:22:15.840 like the justice system do you mean like revenge yeah yeah basically i don't i don't think that that

01:22:21.520 would be my uh my ideal system sure yeah well so i would answer the question by saying that

01:22:29.120 whether you like it or not there is always going to be if we consider patriarchy to be the dominance of

01:22:35.440 men that's an inescapable fact it can be hidden for a while it can be pretended that it's not true

01:22:42.160 and people can act as though it's not true and people can act as though they have a higher set

01:22:46.400 of values that they're moving towards but ultimately it will always reduce to force and it the pendulum

01:22:52.800 and clock will always go back the other direction and men will take rights away from other men and women

01:22:58.720 and this will always be the cycle and it has to actually be that way because what ends up happening

01:23:05.040 is through the form of egalitarianism comes its own special breed of oppression and that oppression

01:23:10.880 in the ever search in the ever expanse for egalitarianism is what we see now which is

01:23:16.720 anti-natalism and oppression towards men male groups oppression towards specific male groups over

01:23:23.040 other male groups all in the name of trying to make things equal and so eventually it all just gets reset

01:23:28.320 with force this is what we see time and time again as society gets more and more decadent yeah i don't

01:23:34.080 think that that means that feminism shouldn't exist though i think just because something is as you say

01:23:39.840 inevitable i think that you should still be able to push back against things and and maybe hold them

01:23:46.480 off i guess is the wrong way to say it but if if it's producing undesirable outcomes for women then

01:23:53.040 regardless of whether or not desirable undesirable outcomes do you think that the desirable outcomes

01:23:59.680 are the fact that we went from having a four percent divorce to having a 55 percent divorce we

01:24:06.320 went from almost no women having mental illness to one in four women having mental illness i would

01:24:10.880 think the fact that the female hormone regulation from birth control which leads this mental illness

01:24:15.440 has been good i mean i can go on and on and on and i can explain why i think a lot of those things

01:24:21.360 are good okay i can't wait to hear it higher higher divorce rate i think there's probably a lot of women

01:24:27.920 in the past when there was a four percent divorce rate that wish they could have gotten divorced but

01:24:31.600 they felt either through social pressure or they just legally couldn't get divorced we're not able to

01:24:38.960 and i think that if more women are getting divorced it's really bad for children because and we know it's

01:24:44.560 really bad for children because we see what happens when you come from a single mother home but i would

01:24:49.040 absent a father in the home and what happens with your criminality what happens with the end results

01:24:53.840 of children who come out of these environments is really really bad and not only that but here's

01:24:59.520 one of the reasons it's so bad it's because if women replace the biological father with a stepfather

01:25:06.160 the chances for abuse exponentially skyrocket much much much higher no i i agree with that

01:25:12.800 is about children not about you and this is where i have to defer to the evil of feminist ideology

01:25:21.200 there is nothing that could possibly be considered more virtuous than staving off your own happiness

01:25:26.480 for that of your children do you think happy children are are reared in an unhappy marriage

01:25:31.600 though do you really think that that's healthy then we i would assume that back when we had the four

01:25:35.360 percent everybody was just miserable kind of oh yeah and you could support this with what other than

01:25:41.120 you just made it up i mean what what can you support the fact they weren't all miserable with well wait

01:25:45.920 a second i don't have to prove a negative to your positive claim that they were i mean that's true

01:25:51.200 but i we can talk to people who i mean my parents are are 16 75 that's true we can we can go back to

01:25:58.160 the world war ii generation and we can talk to them and their their happiness ratings were through the

01:26:03.200 friggin roof in comparison and especially mental illness ratings grid one motorsports donated 200

01:26:10.960 hey the patriarchy are real men that are capable of great violence and equal measures of kindness

01:26:17.120 and value women that do not value themselves the patriarchy stands ready to save you from yourselves

01:26:26.640 by the way uh let's we we should keep the chats nice if we can but grid one thank you man let me do

01:26:32.400 read a few of these chats and we'll get right back into it sure hey sean andrew said or andrew is

01:26:38.480 it's a little hard to read that 100 100 on the feminist going for a decline in the population thank

01:26:44.080 you sean appreciate it he also says this feminist is freaking crazy wow i don't apparently you're

01:26:50.880 crazy i don't think i'm crazy i think you can disagree with what i'm saying but i don't think

01:26:55.120 crazy is irrational and it's irrational to say that there's a human being who could be born

01:27:01.600 on tuesday but on monday if you destroy it as long as it's inside of a womb that's not a human being

01:27:07.360 and so therefore not murder that's actually irrational i don't think that's irrational i

01:27:11.040 think that well then you should be able to make the personhood distinction he gave me good do some

01:27:14.640 good time i probably could come up with a rational argument for it let me read this last one here we

01:27:18.800 have alan varghese alex uh 200 from canada thank you man appreciate it merci beaucoup she should rewatch

01:27:25.680 the show to see how dumb she was in this show trying to justify your arguments leave feminism and save your

01:27:30.720 life andrew thanks for being here and breaking these stupid and dangerous world views of feminists

01:27:36.240 and look i think we should give you credit uh you maximum credit you've come on to to debate yes um

01:27:43.120 and uh so and she's also an amateur at it and i've done hundreds of debates and i'm going to give

01:27:49.520 credit where credit's due there's very few feminists who are willing to back up their ideology and i think

01:27:54.240 for the most part this conversation slash debate has been highly respectful thank you yeah yeah um

01:28:01.920 did you guys want to continue on that thread or i have a couple more questions we can move on from

01:28:06.160 this okay so one of the topics that came up during the show was and well it was kind of a two-pronged

01:28:12.960 thing but can you be sexist towards men and it seems like if i recall your answer well perhaps you want

01:28:21.520 to just restate your position on that yeah i i do think you can be sexist towards men i think i kind

01:28:26.960 of compared it to our discussion of race and i said it was i think it's a bit different from race but i

01:28:32.000 do think that you can be sexist towards men but as you would agree you can't really exert any kind

01:28:38.080 of real force over men so what's the you know what's the outcome force why would force be the

01:28:44.000 requirement for sexism sexism would just no i'm saying you can you can be sexism but i'm saying you're

01:28:49.520 not really going to be able to nothing will really come of it i mean if if men have the power and

01:28:55.200 that's how it should be it doesn't mean that so just so you understand and i see people always

01:29:00.080 conflate this argument in fact the super chatter did because everything will eventually reduce to

01:29:06.400 force does not mean that society always operates inside of the mode of force it will just always end up

01:29:13.520 going back to force always inevitably so you can have brainwashed societies which we have right now

01:29:21.040 and you can have people who operate inside of these delusions and operate as though there is power

01:29:27.280 where there is no power in fact some of the most powerful people on planet earth are able to manipulate

01:29:32.480 people into thinking they have all sorts of power which they do not actually have this is part of a game

01:29:39.040 of psychological manipulation but that does not mean that you cannot oppress men and their sexuality

01:29:45.680 nor that you can even even uh the patriarchy itself so what what's your definition of oppression for men

01:29:52.480 since we were kind of going back and forth i'll just utilize yours okay yeah so i mean there's no doubt

01:29:58.240 that men can oppress men and there's no doubt that women can use the levers of power to also be oppressive

01:30:03.280 towards men for their own aims that can happen okay so i mean that makes it sound like maybe

01:30:08.240 feminism isn't so futile then if we really if we're capable of uh kind of if we're capable of oppressing

01:30:13.680 men then how would we not also be capable of kind of reclaiming that kind of power for ourselves for

01:30:18.640 our own names when you're talking about oppression you're talking about pushing back against a specific

01:30:24.480 group this does not mean that ultimately um you have the monopoly on force men do but so think of it

01:30:34.480 this way you're inside of a prison okay and there's two guards and there's a hundred inmates the two guards

01:30:40.800 can keep the hundred inmates under control right but if the inmates collectively go

01:30:46.800 well fuck these guys what happens to the guards they they will die yeah so this is it's the illusion

01:30:55.680 of safety and there's an illusion of systems but they eventually always break down but that does not

01:31:01.040 mean what we don't collectively live inside of these socially constructed delusions which sexism would be

01:31:07.040 one and a race would be another right socially constructed delusion that people cannot be oppressed

01:31:13.360 inside of them because oppression is a socially constructed delusion too right so the oppression

01:31:18.480 of men is a socially constructed delusion as much as it is for women okay well then so then if we agree

01:31:24.080 on that then men can't be sexist towards women ever but i mean so but i'm coming from the perspective that

01:31:31.120 we are living and operating in this system like regardless of whether or not you think it's a

01:31:34.640 delusion this is how the world is operating people are affected by it i think we kind of talked about

01:31:40.160 that on the on the panel that just because something doesn't necessarily translate to

01:31:46.320 like a physical objective reality doesn't mean we aren't all experiencing it sure so you can have

01:31:50.480 people who get their hearts cut out on a temple and their bodies kicked down because it gets sacrificed

01:31:54.880 to god or their god and um you know that's a effect you could say this is an effect of your worship of

01:32:03.120 this demonic deity which does not exist right yeah yeah so i agree with that but it just doesn't

01:32:07.760 negate my point at all well i'm not sure why it's it's valid to talk about the oppression of men under

01:32:13.840 this delusional system but we can't also talk about the way women are negatively affected by it we can

01:32:18.960 we can talk about and women used to they used to talk about the issues that they had all the time from

01:32:24.800 the moral high ground when they weren't being utilized as political tools so do men have the moral high

01:32:29.760 ground now as political men um ultimately there will be a select few men who will end up with a moral

01:32:36.640 high ground through the church things like this but generally speaking inside of society politicians

01:32:42.000 almost never have the moral high ground so i mean if they don't have the moral high ground on average

01:32:47.120 why should they be able to talk about their issues i mean why i guess because they have the monopoly on

01:32:52.160 force okay and all of your subjective morality is going to reduce to force that's why and so they can

01:32:59.760 enforce whatever the hell they want and might makes right if you're a subjectivist what else does it

01:33:05.600 make i mean that doesn't sound like men are very oppressed then it doesn't really sound like men

01:33:08.400 are facing a real harsh reality saying that there could be the men who are in the levers of power

01:33:13.040 who don't have great moral claims but can utilize force doesn't mean that you can't have men who are

01:33:17.920 oppressed in society even if it's by other men but it can certainly be done by women as well who have

01:33:23.520 their hands on the levers of power due to a shared delusion why can't those women who have their

01:33:27.920 hands on the levers of power use it for women's aims like feminism they do and what we end up with is

01:33:33.840 anti-natalism and all sorts of nonsense which is why it's going to reduce back to a power

01:33:38.400 centralization where men eventually collectively eliminate women's rights you can't prove that's

01:33:43.840 actually going to happen i can that well i can't prove for sure but i can show you historically what

01:33:49.280 the standard has been has been this is that always what ends up happening is the forced doctrine gets

01:33:55.520 reintroduced and rights collectively are taken away from women it's not that this is something i advocate be

01:34:01.120 done i'm just telling you that that's what's going to happen okay yeah that's an event it's an

01:34:06.480 eventuality which basically is inescapable okay take your word for it well since this was sort of

01:34:13.600 a two-pronged thing and it stemmed from the conversation that we had the other day about race

01:34:19.600 we could perhaps delve into that briefly so can you be racist towards white people i still say no

01:34:27.120 no no can't be racist towards white people no okay you can be prejudiced against white people

01:34:31.920 on like an individual basis why don't we do definitions then so um how do you define racism

01:34:37.040 i would say that racism is it prejudice is part of it but you have to be in a position of power

01:34:43.680 prejudice plus power sure that's yeah that's kind of like a nice like sociology definition what's yours

01:34:49.680 andrew i don't need to give a counter definition i just reject yours why am i wrong

01:34:53.120 i i don't know i mean you don't know why i'm wrong to reject that definition why you haven't

01:34:58.640 explained why you reject it why do i need to even give an explanation wait is this hitchens razor we're

01:35:03.520 not going to get very far then i don't know well it's not hitchens razor it's just to point out that

01:35:07.920 from your subjective if everything inside of your worldview is subjective then you saying the

01:35:13.760 definition that i use is prejudice plus power why shouldn't i just reject that definition as being

01:35:19.680 something i don't accept as being true okay but then i mean what's how can we say that any

01:35:24.160 definition of racism is objective well you couldn't okay then then i mean like why even

01:35:29.920 bother discussing it then i don't good question it was the one i was asking you the other night

01:35:34.400 which is you seem to think that race is a social construction right yeah i mean so if race is a

01:35:40.000 social construction and all of your definitions of it are subjective including the oppression being

01:35:45.120 subjective why even talk about it wouldn't that eliminate racism because same okay you are arguing

01:35:52.400 that this is all like a delusional construction but male oppression is still real because they're

01:35:57.360 still living it right even though it's all a delusional construction so race is a delusional

01:36:01.760 construction power mechanisms are delusional construction not the effect we've already agreed

01:36:07.040 that the that's my exact point the effects are real yeah i understand but that still doesn't

01:36:11.520 tell me why i should accept that definition as being true well that's not what you're talking

01:36:15.280 about you were asking me then if race is a social construct if we all just agree it doesn't exist

01:36:20.080 why how can yeah but the effect is only real if you accept the construct as being true that's not true

01:36:25.440 it is true no there there are objective effects of of racism because you accept it as being true

01:36:32.000 no i mean if you if you tomorrow say that race doesn't exist race isn't real that's not going to change

01:36:36.480 the fact that no no no but if everybody acted as though it wasn't then it would change the effect

01:36:42.880 i it wouldn't move people out of neighborhoods that have been historically redlined why there

01:36:47.680 wouldn't be any more redlining because there wouldn't be any construction called race anymore

01:36:52.480 but those neighborhoods would still be worse places but those people would eventually move

01:36:56.080 off of those neighborhoods and there would be no restrictions because nobody cared about race

01:37:00.000 right that's the whole point in that world where suddenly everyone wakes up and doesn't care

01:37:03.920 about race i guess and yeah in like 10 to 20 years people could uh yeah so then then the point

01:37:09.040 the point is is for the social construction of race and for oppression then the best thing in the

01:37:14.480 world to do would be for people to just not even follow the construction right and then if that's

01:37:19.200 eliminated nobody believes in race anymore none of them are racist that's not going to happen i mean

01:37:23.520 the best thing for male oppression it's not going to happen right okay well the best thing for male

01:37:27.360 oppression would be to just wake up and and take all the rights away from women yeah yeah

01:37:33.280 right exactly exactly but that's the inevitability but that's not gonna but you're saying that's not

01:37:38.240 gonna happen no i'm saying it i literally said over and over again it's an inevitability that it happens

01:37:47.120 okay but is that you think that's happening soon you think that men are going to wake up

01:37:50.880 and take all the rights away from women i think that as you see the polarization happening and you

01:37:56.160 start to see things like the repeal the 19th moving forward you start to see more and more

01:37:59.760 conservative politicians pushing back against this idea that suffrage itself is a great idea

01:38:05.760 i think that the voting pool will eventually get limited and i think i'll see it within my lifetime

01:38:10.080 yeah okay i mean then why why doesn't the case of race ignoring it is going to be the best the best

01:38:17.680 well i'm not even saying that it is i'm just asking you why should i should accept that racism

01:38:21.920 itself can only be prejudice plus power rather than just a personal treatment of a person because we don't

01:38:27.680 see the same effects on on white people but even if we don't see the same effects that doesn't mean

01:38:33.280 that i need to assume that that's racism okay so i mean if we want to agree to a different

01:38:39.120 definition wherein you can be racist against white people then i guess my question is why would it

01:38:42.960 matter why would what matter being racist against white people yeah if there's no effects because

01:38:47.040 they don't like it okay yeah that's the same reason that you don't want us to be racist to black

01:38:51.760 people right because no because there are actual material effects that that they don't like privileged

01:38:56.480 that they don't like sure okay why why keep women in the home they don't like it some of them don't

01:39:01.920 but they do like it so some of them don't you can ask them but those they've never been restricted to

01:39:07.120 only being in the home that's never happened that's delusional think okay but it's never happened

01:39:12.400 yeah sometimes people just not liking something is enough of a reason i guess to yeah so then that

01:39:17.680 would be racism to white people if you're doing something to them that they don't like

01:39:22.480 right yeah sure they would based on their race that's racism okay yeah if we're going on that

01:39:28.400 definition where you can be racist against white people in that way i guess my question then would

01:39:32.880 be yeah why why does it matter because they don't like it okay does that mean it matters as much as

01:39:38.480 anti-black racism yeah yeah yeah they don't like it right so you think isn't your entire justification

01:39:44.240 for why it's wrong that they don't like it no then what's the justification for why anti-black

01:39:50.320 racism is wrong is that it has been keeping an entire group of people in a in a subjugated position

01:39:56.640 for like centuries well what if they love that they don't so they don't like it okay i mean so that's

01:40:03.440 the justification is that they don't like it right can i can't like what would the actual justification be

01:40:09.280 other than they don't like it it i there's a moral argument that it causes harm to people and

01:40:17.440 people don't like being harmed and the reason that the harm principle is immoral is because people

01:40:24.000 don't like it i think it's bad for society it erodes trust and why is that bad because why is

01:40:29.680 eroding trust do you think eroding trust is good no but i don't have the harm principle that's your

01:40:34.080 principle why is harm if it's harm everything which is harm just means thing i don't like right

01:40:39.120 no that's not true i think you can give me a form of harm people like bdsm though then that you

01:40:46.240 wouldn't consider that harm within the harm principle would you i mean i don't know i'm not the one saying

01:40:51.840 i have the harm principle i well then why do you keep appealing to it as your moral standard for when

01:40:56.980 something's bad okay well that's fair that if you keep appealing to it as the moral standard for when

01:41:01.960 thing bad then i'm going to assume that that's your principle for bad thing okay i well i'm trying to

01:41:07.960 give you examples of things that i think you could objectively say are a reason why certain things

01:41:12.840 could be bad they could create disorder distrust in society yeah i agree that you can give a zillion

01:41:18.540 qualifiers for things which you think are bad but my question is why you think they're bad what is bad

01:41:25.340 in this case it's thing i don't like thing i don't like is harmful right sure well i i could just as

01:41:30.500 easily okay now i'm christian i've just converted to christianity those things are bad because divine

01:41:36.040 command says you can't be racist sure how is that any more justifiable i don't understand even if it

01:41:40.960 wasn't right and we both ended up directly in the i can't justify you can't justify then what we end up

01:41:48.620 with is thing people don't like still racist okay so then it's racist because they don't like the shit

01:41:56.320 nicolodeon donated 200 you did a great job at defining an abortion line what's the line that

01:42:04.280 white people can start experiencing racism yeah yeah that's right like the well i guess it's hard

01:42:12.880 the line at which white people would have to be in i'm not really sure i understand the question he's

01:42:21.460 asking how much he's asking how much less white do you have to be before you can enter into

01:42:27.800 theoretically having racism perpetuated on you if people look at you and perceive you as black or a

01:42:34.560 different race what if you have vitiligo i think people you can still easily tell if someone is black

01:42:39.560 with vitiligo okay except maybe in the case of like people who have extreme cosmetic procedures like

01:42:44.420 michael jackson but there's always going to be fringe cases that are that are a little weird but

01:42:48.100 i think everyone can easily perceive race but if we're just saying the bad is the bad because that's

01:42:53.360 what we're just saying here the bad is the bad whatever we perceive as bad and whatever we perceive

01:42:57.540 as bad is what we don't like then if white people say that if you're going after them based on their skin

01:43:02.860 color and they don't like it then that's racist that would be the same exact standard you would appeal

01:43:07.740 to i don't know how you get around that well i think there can be things beyond there i mean it can

01:43:13.680 be a problem of scale like what what is more bad if we're just talking about what's bad what is

01:43:18.060 more bad i i say that this is more bad like if we're really going to reduce it down to that

01:43:22.100 i think yeah but i say that that's less bad okay well then i mean what are we even arguing that's my

01:43:27.480 whole point this is the problem when we're going into justifications of what is bad it was just the

01:43:31.940 bad is the bad is the bad is the bad you know what i mean whatever i think is like i said i tried to

01:43:36.940 give examples you weren't you're just not gonna let me give any sort of like ethical justification

01:43:41.560 that is secular i'll let you give any ethical justification you want which is secular no but you

01:43:45.920 you'll call it relativism it is relativism okay well then i mean i'm kind of at a i can't really

01:43:50.340 do anything so if it's relativism then asking me for any sort of justification is relative

01:43:55.340 so relative relative to what i mean to nothing because that's your justification but do you

01:44:02.380 nothing do you believe whether you'll give it or not do you believe you have an objective

01:44:05.500 christian ethicist justification for what is bad do you well if you're making that claim if you're if

01:44:13.080 you're asking me this question do you believe in objective truth i don't think so well then why do

01:44:21.040 you care what my answer would be because i mean no matter what i said we would not objectively be true

01:44:28.000 in your worldview right i mean you

01:44:29.620 thank you sean go ahead i just don't i mean

01:44:36.720 i know it would not be objectively true whatever you say in my worldview but because there is no

01:44:44.500 standard for which is true and so that's why we end up with relativism and so when i tell you that

01:44:49.340 what's wrong what's bad about relativism well here's what's bad about relativism and its reduction

01:44:54.160 so it works like this if you have a standard we both have a worldview and if i have a standard for

01:45:00.580 truth that means i need to have something which is an invariant standard meaning we can apply all

01:45:05.440 standards to it this would require a standard for knowledge and epistemology okay so your knowledge

01:45:10.980 has to have a standard and it has to be a standard which has no variant this is how we know if a thing

01:45:16.560 is true or false would you agree with me that the laws of logic which are required for us to have this

01:45:21.720 debate are objectively true i mean i'll say yes i'll say yes i don't know are they or aren't they i don't

01:45:31.940 i really don't know you don't know if the laws of logic i don't know if there is objective truth

01:45:36.160 like for instance the law of non-contradiction can you be here in an outer space at the same time

01:45:43.380 no is that objectively a true statement yes so what's your standard for that true statement

01:45:48.980 i guess experience and reason experience and reason yeah i can reason that those things but you just

01:45:57.740 got done telling me there's no such thing as objective truth well no i'm agreeing with you

01:46:00.600 now there is now there is a such thing as an objective truth i'm always i'm always thinking

01:46:04.800 and i'm always learning and if there is a standard for objective truth an invariable standard which you

01:46:09.940 cannot move away from right from your perspective when we're talking about the laws of logic you say

01:46:16.760 these are true can you justify why we ought to use them can i mean the no one i mean everything is

01:46:28.760 argued in that way just same as christian ethics can you can you justify why we ought to use christian

01:46:37.540 ethics i can but before i do i'm trying to show you why the reduction here is wrong i would argue that

01:46:44.380 we ought to use secular ethics because it's not based on something that is not real but it's

01:46:52.340 subject no no it is because it's all subjective and yet you just said that there's an objective

01:46:57.260 standard for truth but why should we have subjective morality if there's an objective standard for truth

01:47:02.520 if we have an objective standard for truth wouldn't we want objective morals because we know i don't

01:47:07.420 believe we know a thing can now be true right but i don't but that's the thing if you can't enforce

01:47:12.840 a system of morals that is based on something that only a fraction of people believe i mean well

01:47:18.040 whether you can enforce it or not would not make it less true or false if it was moral right

01:47:23.080 sure i guess i guess i just struggle to understand how ethics based on religion something that not

01:47:31.220 everyone believes is somehow more objectively true than ethics based on something that nobody believes

01:47:38.260 on i mean there's lots of different secular epistemologies they're all based on different

01:47:43.900 things they're all based on just relativism so you can't the problem with it is you can't say that

01:47:49.840 yours is better than mine and but so asking me for justification for mine's irrelevant who cares

01:47:55.600 no matter what you're always in the position where it's just as valid as your position and there's

01:48:00.720 really nothing you can do about that so asking me endlessly to make a justification for thing which

01:48:05.520 you have no justice i'm not trying to convince you that i'm correct just trying to show you that

01:48:09.900 we're always always going to be equally justified in whatever it is that we want in society from your

01:48:15.820 own worldview there's nothing i could do which you could ever point to as being bad because it's just

01:48:21.580 as morally justified as anything you do i mean that that's all well and good but in reality i there's

01:48:29.260 a sense of like moral intuition and how can you say that how can you say that like an intuition is

01:48:35.240 is is wrong everybody doesn't have the same moral intuitions no but i think there are certain things

01:48:41.180 that are like necrophilia if we all had the same moral intuitions and you think that that therefore

01:48:48.780 those are the right morals not everyone has the same but i think there are general things that we can

01:48:53.660 agree on and there's always going to be people who then why do we need feminism for all just moral

01:48:57.560 people based on our intuitions well i didn't say that feminism was a was a moral thing i didn't

01:49:02.620 say it's not moral so is it immoral no i i'm i mean it's not concerning morals it's not it's not

01:49:10.020 concerning morals no i think it's concerning the way egalitarianism isn't a moral position no i think

01:49:15.420 it's i mean if it's what well i don't like not being treated equally that's you don't like it yeah

01:49:23.280 right and we can reduce your entire moral uh epistemology down to i don't like it right no

01:49:31.400 no no so what can we reduce it down to i mean my personal i would say it's a combination of

01:49:38.020 intuition my experiences of the world and my ability to think and reason but we all don't

01:49:43.260 share the same intuitions right no but i mean there's a reason we have we have classes of of

01:49:48.680 epistemologies clearly enough people agree on a certain standpoint that there's a school of it a

01:49:54.700 school of thought yeah for different yeah for different branches of knowledge but actually i

01:49:58.420 would make my point that we don't share the same intuitions or otherwise there wouldn't be so many

01:50:01.760 different branches no i would people who have epistem or uh theories of knowledge right i would

01:50:07.660 agree that i i mean knowledge is a tough thing to pin down i don't think anyone can really ever say

01:50:12.520 what how we know what we know and what we can't but we just know that there is objective truth by your

01:50:17.800 own admission i i'm going back and i don't know if there's objective truth i haven't really thought

01:50:21.700 about it we can be having this conversation and not having this conversation at the same time

01:50:25.500 existence is pretty absurd i don't know it's one of those things existence itself is a contradiction

01:50:31.640 it might be it might be yeah i don't spend a lot of time i won't look i won't belabor the point

01:50:37.620 it feels it feels um it's kind of silly to do at this point but anyway brian do you want to move

01:50:42.740 it on to anything else i'll come back in just a second okay okay so anyway uh back to abortion

01:50:50.380 yeah right i would i would still like to know this yeah go for it now we're getting into more

01:50:57.100 relativism can you just you say intuitively then yeah the day before you're supposed to give birth

01:51:08.520 that not intuitively murder i don't think that i would say my definition of of what is murder

01:51:18.380 is is intuitive i think it's based on the category is not intuitive then why would we have a law

01:51:25.720 against it well i was going to say no not intuitive as in like oh you don't intuitively believe it's

01:51:30.300 wrong but my my position on this is not just pure intuition i think it's we've already established that

01:51:36.060 my definition of personhood is not fully fleshed out i don't have a fully fleshed out legal definition

01:51:40.980 of personhood but it's based on my reasoning that before you are born when you're still in your

01:51:48.040 mother's womb there's there's problems there with considering that a separate person because i mean

01:51:53.340 they're not a separate person they don't have the ability to survive outside the womb so then okay

01:52:00.000 viability might be the point so if i feed you like while you're unconscious are we separate people

01:52:06.420 no but i mean well i would i would argue that a person who is in a coma or a person who's on life

01:52:13.000 support is in a state of altered personhood i don't think they're not a person what the hell

01:52:16.960 does all well okay they're not a what's the delineation then what makes them not a person

01:52:20.920 i mean i really don't know wouldn't you give them the same moral consideration you would

01:52:27.480 anybody else we don't take the life of individuals but we can take someone in a coma off life support

01:52:33.080 we can take that's not taking that there's a distinction here to be made okay i mean yeah

01:52:38.440 that's not taking their life it's taking away supportive but we can do things to people in

01:52:44.120 certain states that i mean the death penalty you can argue that they did something to deserve it

01:52:49.680 but we have reasoned somehow that murder is justifiable in the case of well what a murder

01:52:57.960 is is an unjustified killing to begin with right that's i mean that's a definition that you've

01:53:02.420 chosen what's i mean that's a definition you would back up wouldn't it what else could a murder be

01:53:06.440 other than an unjustified killing couldn't be a justified one

01:53:09.240 i guess i mean would you consider like killing and self-defense to be murder no that would be a

01:53:19.060 justified killing right okay so it's just killing so that means it's killing in a way which is

01:53:24.980 justified or unjustified okay so murder would be an unjustified killing and killing could be justified

01:53:32.000 so therefore not murder yeah so i mean taking taking a life can be justified yeah oh yeah all the time

01:53:38.740 yeah so i mean so that's why i'm looking for your justification for why what makes this not

01:53:43.140 murder because from my from my perspective if i went into a coma patient who was not off of life

01:53:49.000 support and started stabbing him in the chest you would consider that to be murder right yeah so

01:53:55.680 what's the distinction here i because i do not believe that fetuses have personhood i do not believe

01:54:02.480 that they are because they're hooked up to a machine a human machine i don't think that's necessarily

01:54:07.980 why i just think that they how can we classify a fetus as a person it has not been born yet that

01:54:15.940 that to me is the point in which a person enters into the world what prior to that they are gestating

01:54:21.140 when you say born right you just mean outside of the womb right there's a reason that i mean we have

01:54:25.900 a word for it fetus and you can call it a baby if you'd like but the accepted term is fetus and then

01:54:31.640 when it's born it's a baby there's obviously a difference and he's an adult and that could be a child

01:54:35.480 and that could be a cousin and that could be uh you know what i mean but they're all still

01:54:39.180 identifying human beings if is he an adult make him less of a human than you being let's say a child

01:54:44.660 or him being my cousin or him being my aunt they're all still human beings right yeah so just saying

01:54:51.200 it's a fetus does not negate humanity no but i mean human is different from our legal category of

01:54:59.720 of personhood human human is different i think that it's a requirement for personhood it it is a

01:55:05.880 requirement but it's not the whole of the definition what is it what is it but you don't

01:55:10.100 you don't know i would say i know there's a number of different things that i said i don't know if i have

01:55:13.720 the whole definition yeah so what would make you not i mean i would be curious to see what

01:55:19.440 because i i know that it's up for debate and i know that like

01:55:23.340 the legal category was established i mean i want to be as charitable as possible honestly

01:55:29.000 right but if you're saying it's really hard for me to be charitable if you say the day before

01:55:35.260 the day before you're slated to give birth if the mom goes in and aborts you would prefer that she

01:55:43.520 didn't but it's not murder that to me does not seem like a rational position because the only

01:55:49.780 distinction is well she's still the baby's still inside the womb but i'm not sure why it would

01:55:55.160 make it less of a person whether or not you agree with my rationality or my rationale my rationale is

01:56:00.400 that personhood begins when you're born and murder is yeah but why does it begin when you're born what

01:56:08.080 makes you a person then and not the day before i don't understand that i can't figure out a single

01:56:13.400 distinction being born i guess i mean that that just is my rationale but that's just a process like

01:56:19.480 okay what if it was in a machine what if the kid was was in a machine like an artificial womb

01:56:24.380 like prior to prior to yeah the day before i mean it's it's totally viable to take out of the

01:56:32.520 artificial womb but the day before you release the chamber you go yeah fuck it and you press the dump

01:56:39.080 button see that that would be different to me because why it's existing outside of its mother's

01:56:44.080 body it is a yeah the machine is its mother's body now i know but it's it's the same thing it's in

01:56:50.260 the real world we can i mean that it's in the real world in its mother's body what what is it in a fake

01:56:55.400 is the uterus a magical fairy world obviously i don't mean that it's it's it's it's existing i mean

01:57:01.620 that's all i can say is really it's existing out of side outside of the mother's body whether or not

01:57:05.700 yeah but what would make it less of a human being because it's inside of your of your mother's body

01:57:11.840 i think it's less of a human being i'm not talking about humanity i'm talking about personhood

01:57:16.060 because that i mean that really is the person then the fact that it is part of the mother's body

01:57:23.900 yeah but it's part of the machine i mean that's that's something to think about but i mean like

01:57:30.700 we consider people on life support to be to be people yes they are there are certain things that

01:57:37.500 you can yeah but it can survive the difference is on life support you can't survive without the

01:57:41.480 life support right in the case of the machine you could survive outside of the machine in the case

01:57:46.140 of that womb now you can the baby could survive outside the womb they're viable in the machine

01:57:51.480 and in the womb maybe not on life support so these situations the artificial womb and the uterus

01:57:56.760 seem identical to me what is the distinction here to be made so okay you're asking like if a baby is

01:58:02.080 viable is an abortion murder in that case i honestly

01:58:08.160 i haven't i haven't really thought about it because of the fact that i think that viability should

01:58:20.160 be a limit for abortion but i mean i i want to say no because i i still think that

01:58:28.080 that that personhood is when you are born and i don't think that you can you can call it murder

01:58:34.880 otherwise but then yeah i mean there's a contradiction there i can i can admit that i just don't

01:58:41.360 i have a hard time calling that murder i i don't know well maybe something to think about that if you

01:58:50.240 have a contradiction in the position yeah two other quick topics then we'll do uh if there are any super

01:58:56.060 chats there'll be kind of a super chat slash q a uh the q a's will be through the super chats

01:59:02.780 so i don't know if we got into it the wage gap was that a conversation no i don't think so so uh

01:59:09.500 typically there's this you know familiar with the uh wage gap yeah do you think it's

01:59:15.180 something that exists are women paid less than men for this for the same work i think in the past they

01:59:22.620 definitely have been i think it's shrinking is what you're saying it's shrinking i think you could

01:59:27.420 probably make the argument that um i think you can make the argument that women in certain positions

01:59:36.220 are probably paid less because there there are i don't know if i totally believe that a wage gap

01:59:43.100 like a meaningful wage gap exists like in the united states today though i i think that there are probably

01:59:49.100 positions where where women are unfairly being paid less but i mean is it like a widespread phenomenon

01:59:57.100 i'm not sure but globally yeah i i guarantee i'm sure there are countries where where women are getting

02:00:01.900 paid like cents to the to the dollar but but not in the west or not in the united states i can't really

02:00:09.580 speak for any other country but i i don't think no i don't i don't really think so and i mean i'm not

02:00:18.860 saying do you think that because you would you would i think you would say that uh at least historically

02:00:24.620 in the u.s perhaps as recently as 20 years ago 30 years ago there was yeah i mean i think that for

02:00:31.740 example barack obama and i think one of his uh one of his speeches or perhaps the state of the union address

02:00:37.820 he did say that there's still you know he said that there's a wage gap um i don't remember the

02:00:43.500 exact numbers he gave it's i often hear 77 cents on the dollar 83 cents on the dollar uh and that was

02:00:50.540 as recently as the 2010s he was you know president of the united states was saying this so yeah i think

02:00:57.740 that when do you think it disappeared if it did i don't know if it's fully disappeared i think that

02:01:02.220 legislation has been introduced over the years multiple times prior to the 1900s i really have

02:01:09.100 limited knowledge but the civil rights act in part addressed unequal pay so there is legislation

02:01:17.420 that mandates equal pay for equal work for men and women whether or not that always happens in

02:01:22.620 practice i don't know i can definitely see that there could be situations in which it's probably not

02:01:27.980 put into practice what about for example in in sports for example you do i i have heard complaints

02:01:33.500 from feminists who will say for example that uh women in the wnba or female soccer players in fact

02:01:41.020 there's actually a lawsuit by the i believe it was the women's national team filed a lawsuit uh that they

02:01:47.420 were alleging that they were being paid less than their male counterparts um do you think that for

02:01:53.500 example and it certainly is the case that uh female basketball players are paid less than male

02:02:01.580 professional basketball players um do you object to that do you think that there's uh

02:02:09.020 no i i mean i think that it is based on viewership and whether or not i object to the whole

02:02:16.300 you know it sucks that women's sports no one cares about them yeah that's that's sad to me i i

02:02:21.020 don't really care about either gender sports but yeah i think pay is going to be based on

02:02:26.460 how much money you're making for the sure for whoever they're making money for i i don't know

02:02:31.980 with with soccer i'm not really sure because i feel like women's soccer is pretty popular but i i don't

02:02:36.860 know i yeah i don't think they should necessarily be paid the same though and then just the last thing

02:02:41.180 here at least for my topics i and again i for i don't recall if it came up in our conversation perhaps

02:02:47.980 it did but you know it seems to me like you said you you're feminist you believe in equality what

02:02:53.740 are your thoughts on uh military conscription and the state the current state of things in the united

02:03:00.620 states where only men have to register for the selective service and only men are subject to forced

02:03:07.580 military conscription any thoughts on that yeah i think that that could definitely be an example of

02:03:13.020 a way in which the the patriarchy negatively affects men because men have been tasked with

02:03:18.940 with enforcement with with protecting uh law and order and our interests and they well they're the

02:03:24.780 only ones who can right yeah so i mean but so that so then why shouldn't they give themselves

02:03:31.820 additional privileges knowing that you cannot defend their rights while they sleep but they must defend

02:03:37.180 yours well there are women in the military i mean there might not be as many but there are women in the

02:03:41.260 military but if they decided tomorrow not to allow women in the military either this is something which

02:03:47.020 they could do why not just give themselves additional privileges based on the fact that

02:03:52.460 you cannot protect them while they sleep they have to protect you and we're not ever going to go to an

02:03:57.660 all-female military that would be absurd and we would lose so okay why don't why don't women give

02:04:03.020 themselves extra privileges for doing the majority of the housework and child rearing okay so if the if

02:04:09.260 you're asking why should they or shouldn't they your answer is because they can well in this particular

02:04:16.220 case i'm saying to you men since they can do this right and you agree that they can do this what would

02:04:24.300 be the imperative for why they don't do this because i i think it would be unfair i think it'd be unjust

02:04:31.500 because i think there are also ways in which women put in an additional amount of work i mean whether

02:04:36.540 or not you want to argue that they're equivalent women do do the majority of the housework and

02:04:40.940 child rearing even working women if it's justice and justice is about what's fair then i think it's

02:04:46.140 unfair that women don't have to sign up for selective service and i think that it's unfair that they're

02:04:50.540 always for the most part going to be held to a lower standard in enforcement roles than men that's unfair

02:04:57.820 and since that's unfair that they're allowed to go in and get the same pay as a private in the army as a

02:05:04.300 male private in the army or a male lieutenant in the army i think it's fair that they get the right

02:05:09.900 to vote it's fair that women don't okay but i mean that doesn't change them there are things that women

02:05:15.900 are doing that men can't do what give birth reap well reap okay go i was just gonna say though the

02:05:23.500 the differences though is that one is enforced by the government like there's nothing okay yeah a woman

02:05:30.300 if we keep it to selective service yeah right a woman if she was so inclined could go her whole

02:05:34.700 life without she could she could not nothing's forced nothing's nothing's pressed in yeah well

02:05:41.740 then i i mean if it's between that and and you know men taking away all our rights yeah sign me up for

02:05:47.660 the draft taking away all your rights okay well i'm saying i what do you think that women didn't

02:05:52.220 have any rights before they couldn't vote no but i mean they certainly didn't have as much of a say

02:05:57.260 in in it politically but anyways they did have as much of a say politically they just were able to

02:06:02.780 do it from a moral high ground rather than as a voting block i don't want to get too off topic okay

02:06:07.900 i do have thoughts about that um no i do think it is an example of a way that men are are held to

02:06:14.700 how do a different standard yeah i mean if you want to say it's because of biology so would not

02:06:18.940 would it not be just then for men to give themselves additional rights like the right to vote

02:06:24.620 no why would that not be correcting an injustice because there i mean there are ways in which

02:06:30.140 women are like i've already said are putting in an additional amount of work is the difference for

02:06:34.460 you what way what way are women putting in an additional amount of work rearing domestic labor

02:06:39.580 okay so when it comes to when it comes to child rearing first of all men are 50 responsible for

02:06:44.460 the children 50 responsible but they're not actually in in numbers if you look at the statistics they

02:06:49.420 are not putting in the same amount of hours it no they put in all their hours at work taking care

02:06:55.420 of their families even in families where the mother is working as well the mother is still

02:06:59.180 doing the majority of the housework and the majority of child that's because he's still doing

02:07:02.540 the majority of the physical work so in most two-parent and yes in most two-parent households

02:07:07.980 the man still works longer hours and makes a higher wage than the woman does even even in those

02:07:13.740 households where they are doing comparable hours outside the home the woman is still doing more hours

02:07:18.780 inside the home yeah i know but that would just equal out if the man works 10 hours and she works

02:07:23.020 six and takes care of the household then it's equaled out you would still have this additional

02:07:27.500 privilege problem of men uh having to get drafted and protect you while you sleep because they're the

02:07:33.260 only ones who can enforce rights and you say but it's still women are putting in military right now

02:07:39.260 why would men as well they don't fight in the military they're not in combat roles okay so

02:07:44.220 why would men as a whole deserve special privileges for having to sign up for selective service when

02:07:51.980 only some men are going to ever see combat well then could we just give those men though we do

02:07:59.660 hang on hang on can we just give them the right to vote then since they're the ones who ultimately

02:08:05.740 are i would be fine with that just those who signed up men or women can we just give men or women who

02:08:12.220 actually did some kind of service for the united states in the country the right to vote that seems

02:08:18.540 like an additional privilege that they deserve and what is just because who's to say that that

02:08:23.820 fighting in the military is the is the most important thing of all why would they need to only fight in

02:08:27.980 the military you could think of other types of services which they could provide for the united

02:08:32.380 states in a um you know as a well yeah but we're saying that they deserve they should be the only

02:08:37.660 people who can vote because they have signed up and seen combat and no well because men can't vote

02:08:43.100 if they don't sign up for the draft they're not allowed they're disqualified from the vote okay well

02:08:48.140 so men are disqualified from the vote if they don't sign up for the draft women not disqualified from

02:08:52.780 the vote if they don't sign up for the draft so if we wanted it to be fair why don't we give

02:08:57.420 military personnel the right to vote we'll do it men and women

02:09:00.460 they do have the way i'm i'm good you mean only military personnel the right to vote yeah

02:09:06.380 because that because then if you're drafted think about it because then if you're drafted as a man

02:09:10.860 you go into the military hey now you have the right to vote you have nothing to complain about

02:09:14.780 right you were compulsed in but now you have this additional right nobody else has you can't get

02:09:19.260 drafted but you can sign up and then you can get the right to vote too service guarantees citizenship

02:09:26.220 well i i just don't think that's the way we should run things yeah why not because i think

02:09:30.460 there are other important i don't know it doesn't sound very justice-y to me it sounds like you want

02:09:35.020 a privilege that men don't have no well i already asked why should men as a whole get special

02:09:42.700 privileges i just told you i'd grant that they shouldn't only the ones that go and serve and the

02:09:46.860 ones who get drafted in should be able to vote in the same thing with women you think that's the way

02:09:51.900 the country should be ran yeah well what's wrong with that doesn't it seem like it corrects a great

02:09:56.860 injustice which is allowing all women to vote no i think there are there are other injustices in the

02:10:01.900 world i mean why say that why is that the greatest injustice that i didn't say it's the greatest i just

02:10:06.540 said it's an injustice well then why organize our whole society around some some random you don't

02:10:10.700 organize your entire society around only the greatest injustices okay why organize it around a minor

02:10:18.140 you're not even organizing it around that it's just one deviant from the process that we have

02:10:23.100 now i would say who can vote and who can't is is central to a federal republic that's yeah but

02:10:28.060 everything is having a congress is having having 200 or 400 people in congress is having three people

02:10:34.220 in the supreme court versus 10 is every part of the process is important not one part of the process is

02:10:39.900 any more important than the other usually so okay so it seems completely arbitrary it's not arbitrary

02:10:45.180 because you would be correcting for what you consider an injustice so you have a process

02:10:49.900 arbitrary means without process right you do have a process for justice your process for justice is that

02:10:56.940 injustices need to be corrected and you believe in justice right i mean sure i i don't then it's not

02:11:04.780 arbitrary it's an arbitrary way to correct the injustice well wait okay then correct the injustice what

02:11:11.100 would be the way other than to make women draft women women also have to sign up for selective

02:11:16.860 service in order to vote but when women sign up for selective service they cannot produce the same

02:11:22.380 type of soldier that men can so if the men are still disadvantaged it's still not just because

02:11:28.860 they're still not going to be able to perform under the conditions which are necessary which men can

02:11:33.180 i i really don't think that that i mean so if the only way to correct that specific injustice is to

02:11:43.180 only allow people who have served in the military to vote then i mean how do we correct historical like

02:11:49.420 racial injustices what do you propose they can still join the military and vote what do you mean

02:11:54.060 but those are completely those have nothing to do with each other so we're so well then if they have

02:11:58.940 nothing to do with each other why did you bring it up like they were correlated if you're looking for the

02:12:02.700 correlate well i'm saying if who's bill who's barring anybody from a different race if we're going

02:12:06.780 around correcting these injustices in society why why stop at the fact that only men have to register

02:12:14.060 for selective service yeah i wouldn't but my point is not whether or not you could then go and correct

02:12:19.740 whatever else you perceive is an injustice you still could i'm just saying this is an injustice that we

02:12:24.620 agree is not just this is something we can actually agree is not just yeah so then how can we correct

02:12:31.020 for it if you say women should also sign up for selective service that really doesn't correct for

02:12:35.820 it because they still cannot go into these combat theaters and perform like men they might not be

02:12:41.260 able to always be unjustly in a non-equal way put in these situations because they're the only ones who

02:12:50.460 can be but i mean women can still be are you saying the fact that men are the only ones who can see

02:12:56.940 combat is is unjust because because they're the only one no that's not the part that's unjust the

02:13:02.860 part that's unjust is if you're saying that it should be equal that the draft should be equal

02:13:09.020 it still would not actually make it equal in service because what would end up happening equally equally

02:13:14.380 is that men would end up having to still take the primary role as combatants inside of the military

02:13:19.500 thus risking their life and limb far more than women even if they were drafted so even if we did the

02:13:25.100 the draft it would still not be just for them to be equals i i just i just don't agree i think that

02:13:33.420 writing the injustice would be just having women sign up for selective service because i mean and then

02:13:40.300 and then just okay even though even though clearly they're not going to be able to perform the same

02:13:44.940 way men are and so you're going to have to lean on men for heavy don't lean on men let women figure it

02:13:49.820 out i guess let women defend the country i can't wait yeah we'll send we'll send women to the front

02:13:54.460 lines of combat you think that's a great idea i mean now with drones and things i mean i don't think

02:13:59.340 it really really matter you don't no no because we fight wars in the middle of the winter with drones

02:14:06.300 and things well i don't think there's a lot of like hand-to-hand combat going on in in the most

02:14:11.660 most combat is still infantry base we look at what's going on with russia and the ukraine yes drones are

02:14:16.780 deployed in combat yes artillery is used still men on the ground with machine guns oh if you want to

02:14:23.660 finish your point i do have to move things on but okay just lastly on that um so are you in favor of

02:14:29.820 equalization when it comes to military conscription yeah okay so we're going to get into the super chat

02:14:35.900 and q a section so if you guys want get in your super chats or your messages via stream labs uh here

02:14:43.260 we are going to get through them before i do that though really quick guys just an announcement we

02:14:47.980 have another debate right after this so after this is over be sure to stay tuned andrew will be back

02:14:53.900 with us he's gonna debate again uh andrew while while we're getting through some of the soup chats um

02:15:01.500 i'm gonna order us some food excellent uh would you are you getting hungry would you like us to get sure

02:15:07.340 you have any any any preference of food we could get you something too if you want to do pizza um

02:15:12.700 i don't know what's there is there like you like out around uh and now it's a bit far but uh you want

02:15:18.940 we could get you like rice and chicken and you want something like that or from from where hannock

02:15:23.900 like chinese uh there's uh uh there's places rice and chicken don't make him eat on a kitchen

02:15:30.940 yeah that was rice just kidding i want rice and chicken i don't know okay we'll figure it out

02:15:36.620 i'll find you we'll yeah yeah yeah we'll we'll figure something we'll figure something um okay

02:15:43.580 cool so uh let's get into some of the chats here uh okay we have david treziak maximum respect to this

02:15:53.100 woman's views and debate is important you were right sunday andrew was a song time of the season by

02:16:00.780 zombies a person only exists after they can exist outside of a woman thank you david treziak

02:16:07.100 appreciate that they're not even people they're just wait what they're just things wait no these

02:16:13.420 these fetuses you know they're not even people the day before they're slated to be born it's not a

02:16:18.300 person it's a it's a fetus we have canada first brian forgive me but uh i think some wires caught on

02:16:28.060 your foot oh my god that's fine uh brian forgive me but i need to say it she's pathetic irrational

02:16:33.580 and believes women uh guys be nice if you can okay women don't have a fair shake of things also

02:16:38.620 hearing her talk like she gets to vote that's scary also i just on the whole like voting thing

02:16:44.300 andrew brought it up some people in the chat are bringing it up i just want to say the views expressed

02:16:48.780 by the guests do not necessarily reflect the views of the whatever channel uh i'm i'm cool with women

02:16:55.820 voting i'm probably going to get dragged for saying that but hot take it's fine i'm for women voting

02:17:04.300 sorry andrew i'm for correcting injustices oh okay yeah all right you know just not trying to get

02:17:10.780 canceled um okay let's see we we have uh anonymous here one second sorry guys it's coming up in just a

02:17:20.060 respect to the woman debating and all religion aside it's ignorant to think you can't be racist towards

02:17:24.700 white people educate her on slavery please you guys want to go back and forth two minutes on that

02:17:30.140 really quick or i mean we already cover it pretty much i don't even think we really need to i i do

02:17:35.020 have something to say about the fact that white people have also been enslaved and that it you can't

02:17:39.980 compare the enslavement of of white people that happened throughout history like the irish and whatever

02:17:45.260 to like 400 plus years of chattel slavery that was i mean like our whole conception well if i may jump in

02:17:52.780 yeah go for it if i may just jump in this is a bad history no no no but i mean the slavery of white

02:17:58.940 people extends far beyond just what happened are you talking about the irish in the united states

02:18:03.740 oh when people bring up like oh the irish have also been enslaved yeah well i mean there's a lot

02:18:08.780 more no i'm aware yeah the barbary states no i'm aware that slavery as an as a as an act as a practice

02:18:15.820 has basically been practiced forever as like prisoners of war things like that i'm talking about

02:18:21.180 the system of chattel slavery in the united states was i mean our whole conception of race

02:18:27.820 which we we both agree is a social construct is is essentially constructed around slavery oh you

02:18:32.780 don't agree you don't i never agreed to that i just said your world view is that it is yes well

02:18:37.740 because it's constructed around the institution of of chattel slavery as a justification for chattel

02:18:43.980 race yes the conceptions of race in the united states like the conception of white supremacy in

02:18:56.300 the united states it is a justification for the incredibly important at the time economic institution

02:19:02.700 of slavery this sort of like okay well they're well they're not human you know so we can we can continue

02:19:10.460 this this thing that we need so greatly for our agriculture and our industry it is it's formed

02:19:16.220 around around slavery okay let's just grant it for a second so that you know we're on the same page

02:19:25.820 the hell would that have to do with whites having been enslaved what would it have to do

02:19:31.180 with whites having been enslaved i'm saying that just the impact is far greater i i then on whites being

02:19:36.300 enslaved yeah how in the hell could you ever quantify that easily i mean then then easily do it i've

02:19:42.380 pointed out multiple cases of anti-black racism in the united states and policies that have kept black

02:19:49.420 people in a subjugated economic position to white people and i would argue that you could trace pretty

02:19:56.220 much all of that back to slavery okay because i mean i don't i still understand the argument so if you're

02:20:03.900 saying to me that anti-white and maybe we're speaking past each other so i want to try to make

02:20:10.300 sure i get this right anti-white racism can't exist because of chattel slavery being so much worse than whites

02:20:19.580 having been historically oppressed via slavery i don't think that's necessarily why it can't exist

02:20:24.380 but top but i think that is is one piece of evidence for one piece of evidence for i mean yeah yeah

02:20:36.860 everything on it when you have when you have something like that going on for hundreds of

02:20:41.340 years it's pretty hard to compare the situations of two groups of people with nearly every black person

02:20:48.700 in the united states unless their parents immigrated more recently i mean are descended from people who

02:20:55.340 were enslaved and very few white people in the united states if any i wouldn't really be able to

02:21:01.660 think have so like all the nigerians who come over here from the last uh 30 years were all slaves

02:21:07.580 well i was saying except for people who have immigrated from other countries more recently yeah but

02:21:11.340 don't those don't those people who immigrate in from those other countries uh don't they have some

02:21:16.140 kind of privilege that they can attach themselves to what is perceived as being a minority group even

02:21:20.380 though they did not suffer for the same systemic oppression i mean i would say colonialism was also

02:21:25.740 pretty bad also that so everybody maybe the ethiopian wait wait colonialism colonialism uh is a thing that

02:21:33.900 we should be punished for but shouldn't uh shouldn't africans for instance be punished for

02:21:38.620 with everybody else as well we should be punished for it i think see that's another thing is i don't

02:21:43.740 think it's about punishment or guilt i think it's just about acknowledging the fact that this is a

02:21:48.540 reality well if you're correcting an injustice it seems it sounds sure sounds like a punishment how

02:21:53.740 was i mean so you say for instance if if um if nigerians come here okay in the last 30 years and

02:22:01.660 they attach themselves to a group where they don't have any historic oppression here none but are able to

02:22:07.820 benefit from it isn't that actually minorities utilizing what you would consider the minority

02:22:14.300 system to uh to game it and possibly oppress whites no i don't think so because i think by virtue of

02:22:21.500 moving to this country you are you are perceived within within whatever racial boundaries all those poor

02:22:29.660 people are eating out of the garbage can the night before and they they go to the united states

02:22:34.060 civic do you think they feel super oppressed one quick back and forth from the both of you and then

02:22:39.740 we gotta move on but yeah i i all i'm saying is that the slavery that white people have been subjected

02:22:44.780 to is not the same as chattel slavery that that specifically black people were subjected to

02:22:50.620 it's just not the same you just mean in the united states in the united states they're not comparable

02:22:54.460 all right we have david treziak personhood is a concept when the child is viable should never be

02:23:05.100 a boboed okay third trimester smush mortions are so rare one in 100 000 for mother's life

02:23:12.860 feminization is a reason for birth decline for sure though femi feminization is the reason for

02:23:21.740 birth decline oh show though i don't i don't know i i am not i have no thoughts on that all right

02:23:27.740 thank you uh david good to see you in the chat thank you man appreciate your patronage the smartest

02:23:32.380 man in the world says if femmes want revenge for men's sacrifices for women why shouldn't men

02:23:39.260 immediately fill every national cemetery with an equal number of feminists and the bankers

02:23:44.940 we'll skip that one wait what skip it what oh sorry i i don't like pre-read those living underscore

02:23:53.420 donated two hundred dollars andrew everything on it wilson has a face only rachel could love that's

02:23:59.660 true brian face looking thick over there you're getting a salad tell me you're getting a salad yes

02:24:06.220 andrew i interrupted get over it you didn't actually interrupt do i look red too i think i sent that chat

02:24:11.980 in from my phone how does it feel that you didn't get a chance to interrupt me with your super chat

02:24:17.260 which you were attempting to interrupt me with how does that make you feel also you are right that

02:24:21.340 i have a face only my wife could love also disavow the previous chat i don't like pre-read these i just

02:24:28.460 pull them up and i start reading someone's gonna eventually there's probably been a few times right

02:24:33.260 nick where i start reading it and i'm like uh oh okay probably shouldn't read that uh hey it's the

02:24:37.340 nature of a live show uh mc 2100 brian tell the truth 150 plus episodes and hundreds if not

02:24:44.700 thousand plus women on the show don't sugarcoat it are we screwed yet are we screwed well we've

02:24:51.100 definitely had i think probably yeah about a thousand women on the show um look i think uh the the thing is

02:24:58.860 though is that there's a lot of women who come on the show who can stay quiet for a good portion of it

02:25:05.980 uh and i don't know maybe they agree they disagree but i think there's plenty of great wonderful women

02:25:12.620 out there um but i mean i do think the influence of uh well i i don't know i shouldn't i should try to be

02:25:19.340 a bit unbiased since well it's the end of the show fuck it yeah i think the influence of feminism

02:25:25.180 has not been um great great for i mean a variety of reasons obviously we have a global sexual marketplace

02:25:34.220 dating app social media the internet has definitely had an impact on dating and relationships and also

02:25:40.300 just people's uh mental well-being too um so are we screwed i don't know that's probably okay thank

02:25:51.020 you mc2100 thank you probably probably and then we have sean here over on youtube uh just a reminder

02:25:57.580 guys by the way if you get your last ones in because we're gonna if you if you want anything

02:26:02.220 anything red we are going to wrap up here pretty soon although if you can do it try to do it through

02:26:06.540 stream labs as youtube takes their brutal 30 cut but thank you sean appreciate it not believing

02:26:11.260 aborting a nine-month-old baby is murder is just evil i don't know what what is evil how would you how

02:26:18.060 would how would you define evil it's the oppression towards minorities right is is it is a fetus

02:26:23.020 minority hang on is oppressing minorities evil wait what is oppressing minorities evil

02:26:29.820 no i i mean no i don't think it's done with the intention of evil no i think it's just is anything

02:26:34.540 evil in my own opinion yeah what murder yeah probably not of a nine-month-old no i don't think it's i don't

02:26:44.380 think it's murder at nine months no i mean i the way i because i think about if i was aborted at nine

02:26:52.140 months i would never know how is that evil i would i would never know i've never been alive i mean if

02:26:57.260 you were in a coma and you were murdered you never know either that's true something to think about

02:27:03.820 cs why when someone murders a pregnant woman are they tried for the murder of two people yeah i mean i

02:27:10.380 would i would have to talk to whoever made those laws i don't really think that makes any sense to

02:27:16.780 me but it is true all right hold on here just a sec guys i think we're all cut up on the chats there um

02:27:26.380 do you guys have why don't we do this uh closing statements from the both of you closing yeah i can

02:27:31.660 start okay um so i first thank you for coming out it was fun to do i hope you had a good time i don't

02:27:39.100 think it was super aggressive at all um second your world view sucks and uh you should probably

02:27:46.380 change as fast as possible but other than that i appreciated the good and spirited back and forth

02:27:53.180 when it came to enforcement um i think that she's just never or you've never even thought about this

02:27:59.980 ever not for a minute as to who actually enforces rights and that if they're social constructions why

02:28:05.420 we ought to even follow them what good and bad really is the dynamic of evil uh these types of

02:28:10.860 things i just don't think that you've really engaged with too many of those things before to be perfectly

02:28:15.100 honest with you so uh not to beat you up right try to keep it nice and even keeled but um yeah the

02:28:22.060 world view just sucks so i would i would fix it that's it um my closing statement would be i'm very

02:28:29.340 confident in my world view um but i'm obviously still learning the you know my my epistemological

02:28:36.220 standpoint why i think certain things are right and wrong i can't necessarily debate them as as

02:28:42.220 eloquently as andrew but very confident in my intelligence my world view and also i don't think

02:28:48.140 you're screwed because i think that in real life much of this doesn't really matter and everyone's pretty

02:28:54.140 nice and normal and yeah i think everything is going to be fine did you do the thumbs up yes it's

02:29:03.260 lame no no awesome one sec guys so what's going to happen now is we are doing another debate here

02:29:12.620 with andrew and i'm going to put the link for that we'll uh if you guys want to stay uh i'm in this

02:29:20.700 live we're going to do a redirect over to the waiting room for that one we're aiming to go live

02:29:28.860 uh 6 45 maybe uh at the latest seven i'm going to spam the link in youtube those of you who are

02:29:36.620 watching on oh on twitch nick could you pull up the twitch tab really quick for me and sorry guys i'm

02:29:42.380 having so much lag on my computer over here so guys go over to twitch.tv slash whatever if you're

02:29:47.500 watching over there on twitch drop us a follow please if you can if you enjoyed the show if you're

02:29:51.740 watching on youtube kindly open up another tab drop us a follow over there on twitch drop us a prime sub

02:29:56.780 if you have one if you enjoyed the show and those of you on youtube those of you on twitch just stay

02:30:02.860 over there on the whatever channel there will be an intermission we'll be offline for about 30 minutes

02:30:09.100 maybe and then we'll be back with a another thrilling debate with the debate goat the debate god andrew

02:30:17.740 wilson um sorry guys i'm just getting mods i've put the link a few times in the youtube chat if you want

02:30:23.100 to just um just spam it a whole bunch and um i do want to uh let me see if there's one other thing here

02:30:31.820 uh let's see oh okay so um i i would like to state again the views expressed by the guests do not

02:30:40.140 necessarily reflect the views of the whatever channel and we will be live again as i mentioned

02:30:48.780 in about 30 minutes andrew wilson will be here debating someone else uh mods if you can spam the

02:30:55.500 link for that in the youtube chat i want to give a big thank you to both of you for coming and doing this

02:31:00.380 debate and give you a little extra amount of credit for for coming in and doing this we really enjoyed

02:31:07.260 you on our dating talk and i'm very uh thankful that we were able to get you back on uh on this one

02:31:14.460 so uh because i mean it's it's uh you know andrew's this you've been doing this for a long time and

02:31:21.180 and uh i think you know we just actually i think we just for the dating talk you're just on the street

02:31:26.380 you know so um but uh yeah i want to give you absolute credit for coming in and you know having

02:31:33.740 being open to uh debating some of these ideas with us so i think we that deserves some w's in the chat

02:31:40.700 for uh for you so thank you very much and uh well gg well played to both of you last call hit the like

02:31:47.580 button please on youtube thank you for tuning in tonight thank you to everyone who super chats

02:31:51.260 donates supports the show and uh let me just make sure we're not missing any chats we're good guys

02:31:58.060 the link uh mods please spam the link head on over to the other waiting room 30 minute or so

02:32:05.980 intermission and we'll be uh we'll be back soon guys so thanks again for tuning in oh seven's in the chat

02:32:13.980 and we'll see you soon

02:32:21.260 we'll see you soon

Andrew Wilson vs. College Feminist REMATCH ｜ Whatever Debates #5

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