Whatever Podcast - Andrew Wilson vs. Naima (Feminist, Leftist, Anti-Trump) ｜ Whatever Debates #20

00:00:00.000 welcome to a debate edition of the whatever podcast coming to you live from santa barbara

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00:01:24.260 views expressed by the guests do not necessarily reflect the views of the whatever channel without

00:01:30.860 further ado i will introduce our two guests i'm joined today by andrew wilson host of the crucible

00:01:37.240 he's a blood sports debater and political commentator also joining us today is naima she's a senior at

00:01:45.720 university of southern california she's a political commentator and content creator the topic today is

00:01:53.620 feminism you will each have up to a five minute opening statement and then the rest of the show 0.99

00:01:59.300 will just be open conversation possible prompt changes and we're going to have breaks for messages

00:02:04.860 from the audience andrew you're going to go first with your opening statement so please go ahead

00:02:10.700 yeah so my position on feminism is that um it's terrible for society um as we go through this 1.00

00:02:18.520 i'll kind of flesh that view out using what i call forced doctrine so that you can understand why i have

00:02:23.240 that same set but forced doctrine basically just states that uh while feminism definitionally is the 1.00

00:02:30.000 movement towards egalitarianism and equity for the removal of patriarchal systems that feminists will 1.00

00:02:35.580 always have to appeal to patriarchy in order to try to remove patriarchy which is ironically hilarious

00:02:41.600 but a few things i wanted to get to first is that i went through several hours of my opponent's content

00:02:48.100 and i've actually not ever seen her make a single argument for anything that she believes not as

00:02:53.400 no i've seen her assert a lot of things but not an argument for anything she actually believes so i have

00:02:59.240 some notes here and i was hoping she could help me clear some of these things up from the surrounded

00:03:04.020 september 8th 2024 episode she says abortion is murder or i'm sorry the prompt is abortion is 1.00

00:03:10.220 murder and should be illegal she asked for a viability time for 20 weeks and thinks abortion 0.89

00:03:15.200 before 20 weeks is acceptable she says the fetus is technically classified as a parasite the fetus cannot

00:03:21.120 exist outside of the womb and therefore is a parasite the actual definitions don't support this an

00:03:27.120 organism living in on or with another organism in order to obtain nutrients grow multiply

00:03:32.880 uh that would be an actual definition of a parasite or someone or something that resembles a biological

00:03:39.340 parasite living off of being dependent on or exploring another um fetuses can't fit that 0.86

00:03:45.740 definitionally fetus is the same species biological parasites are classified as other not the same

00:03:51.080 species also uh mutual biology mothers and fetus co-adapt and mothers are actually healthier while 0.84

00:03:58.460 they're pregnant so it can't really be a parasite um and um parasites are rarely temporary and fetuses are

00:04:06.460 so and none of that fits the criteria for a parasite on her video middle ground progressives versus

00:04:12.180 moderates and this is from january 19th uh she says the prompt is does the far left uh make democrats lose

00:04:20.520 elections she said kamala was not progressive enough not far left enough um she talks about how women's

00:04:27.060 rights are being stripped but didn't give any examples of what those are so i'm actually really

00:04:31.120 confused about um a lot of her positions including in her rematch against charlie kirk that happened

00:04:36.980 march 5th 2025 why dei is unlawful um her re her rebuttal to kirk was bizarre it just had something to do

00:04:44.620 with there's no racial factor in dei even though kirk gave a pretty good rebuttal for that so i'd like her

00:04:50.940 to kind of dive into what she actually believes within within the paradigm of feminism um but for 1.00

00:04:57.820 my positive position i will say i have a logical argument called forced doctrine and my logical

00:05:03.900 argument called forced doctrine refutes the feminist ideology and it just works as i explained before um 0.99

00:05:11.940 that patriarchy must always be appealed to in order to try to eliminate patriarchy women can't enforce 1.00

00:05:19.480 their own rights collectively and men can therefore women always have to appeal collectively to men for 0.90

00:05:24.140 their rights so you're always going to essentially have a patriarchy through forced doctrine and there's 0.98

00:05:28.560 nothing women can do about that so i'm willing to logically go through that and have it examined 1.00

00:05:33.940 rigorously but i'm hoping that with that um you can also describe your positions so that i understand

00:05:41.060 them better all right thank you andrew if you'd like to give your opening statement yes thank you andrew

00:05:47.400 um you know i do think that that is an interesting claim that i don't you know state my arguments

00:05:54.000 because i've actually been watching some of your content and i've noticed kind of a similar trend as

00:05:58.240 well within these debates where you will ask your debater questions but will not put forth your argument

00:06:04.660 including in your opening statement you know you state forced doctrine but instead of elaborating on it

00:06:09.580 you consistently talk about what i've talked about which only one of those topics was actually related to

00:06:15.220 feminism now when it comes to my actual beliefs i think my goal and my hope for this country is to

00:06:20.260 see us advance as a society i would like to see everyone have bodily autonomy and i would like for

00:06:25.400 the vast majority of people if not everyone to have their basic needs met and i would like to mitigate any

00:06:30.500 unnecessary conflict between the citizens of this country genuinely i think that my main issue with

00:06:37.060 the manosphere and with your forced doctrine principle is that it promotes and spreads divisiveness

00:06:42.580 against men and women it promotes and spreads violence against men and women and it exaggerates

00:06:47.700 and focuses the difference the differences between the genders i think that men and women i mean i don't

00:06:53.420 think i know men and women are the same species we are 99 genetically similar and the obsessive need to

00:06:58.500 define and separate people based on one singular chromosome is doing both men and women a disservice

00:07:04.820 socially economically and politically which we can get into um i'm ready to open it up if you want to

00:07:11.940 yeah i guess actually i'd love to start with a question for you um i would like to go back to

00:07:18.340 the force doctrine theory if we can i just kind of want to understand more i know you've talked a lot

00:07:26.060 about the equal force objection in the past you've said men have essentially a monopoly on force correct

00:07:30.980 if i'm correct okay perfect um and you want me to walk you through the argument no i'm gonna elaborate

00:07:36.280 all right thank you and that rights exist through physical force and that our legal system is based

00:07:40.420 on physical force um so i guess i kind of just want to hear you elaborate on that now if you're welcome

00:07:46.400 so you want my argument for the force doctrine yep okay so what force doctrine is saying is very simple

00:07:52.700 that feminism if you at least agree with my definition and it seems broadly feminist do yeah that 0.99

00:07:59.460 is a movement towards egalitarianism and equity and the removal of patriarchy they if you can't have an

00:08:05.140 oppressed class without an oppressor class at least not from the marxist feminist view in the case if 1.00

00:08:10.620 women are being oppressed they're not being oppressed by wolves they're being oppressed by men right so if

00:08:16.700 that's the case then my argument to them is that whatever you believe this oppression is you will

00:08:23.940 actually have to appeal to men in order to either relinquish whatever this oppression is uh or um

00:08:31.500 concede to whatever it is that they want because collectively women actually cannot overthrow any 1.00

00:08:37.080 patriarchal systems they rely on the force of men and so if men anytime they want to decide to remove 0.87

00:08:42.720 women's rights there's actually not anything women can do about it but the opposition is not true the 0.81

00:08:47.140 opposite is not true women cannot collectivize and take away men's rights okay so are you 0.83

00:08:52.240 essentially saying that women do not deserve the right to fight for their own that's an odd claim 0.97

00:08:57.040 yeah that's an odd claim i'm not making an odd claim i'm trying to get us to the descriptor first

00:09:02.280 so instead of making a prescriptive statement i'm starting with a descriptive statement what is true

00:09:07.000 and then we can worry about what it's what should be true after we can determine what is true okay but

00:09:12.020 i'm trying to see like structurally how does that work in the real world are you saying that women 1.00

00:09:16.520 should not fight for their rights because they listen let's back up so i can distinguish two things

00:09:21.660 okay is ought right so i'm not trying to bridge the is ought gap i'm trying to start with a

00:09:29.160 descriptive claim so if if the descriptive claim is true then we can move through the to the

00:09:35.960 prescriptive side of it but right now you would either need to agree with me that descriptively i'm

00:09:40.880 right or that descriptively i'm wrong i can't agree with you to say that descriptively you're right

00:09:45.700 until you apply what you're saying in theory to the practice of modern day society how does your

00:09:52.400 equal force objection how does this principle work in society what are you saying yeah so i'm saying

00:09:59.080 that because that coexist yeah i think that because that is the case that men deserve to have uh various

00:10:04.400 privileges that they're not given in society which they should be given in society so what are the

00:10:08.700 privileges that you think that men should have that women should not have well primarily i think

00:10:14.360 that if you're going to look at an equalization what i would do pre prescriptively would be to roll

00:10:19.540 voting back and that's for both sexes i think that rolling voting back for both sexes is a good idea

00:10:25.520 and have some sort of perhaps like one house voting system or one marriage voting system or people who

00:10:34.060 have done some sort of collective service to the state for a voting system i think that those things

00:10:38.440 would all be very good systems for everybody why now i would apply that hang on i would apply that

00:10:43.940 broadly to men and i would apply that to women i think that right now men get the shaft because

00:10:50.580 men are men are required to do a lot of jobs that women are not which keeps society going and women are not 1.00

00:10:59.260 doing those things and because of that i don't understand why it is that women can nullify their votes 1.00

00:11:05.240 and disenfranchise them and most importantly vote to send them to the wars they don't have to go 0.56

00:11:09.240 fight in so you would like to disenfranchise both the men and women mostly most of them yes i think 1.00

00:11:16.240 would be a better idea achieve well it would be that it would achieve the same thing our founders

00:11:20.580 basically wanted to achieve which is that they thought that you would have to have a stake in the

00:11:24.620 country in order to vote but if you live in the country and if you exist in the country and if you're

00:11:28.380 being legislated by the laws that the country is making don't you have a stake in that no not always you

00:11:33.000 don't in fact many times you don't many times many people actually get more back from the state than

00:11:37.860 they put into the state so that's at the expense of other people who is that so there's lots of people

00:11:43.120 who pay who get a mass amount back from the government that they never pay to the government

00:11:48.200 this can happen through things like social security disability things like welfare things like even

00:11:54.940 earned income child credit that you may receive even though you don't actually pay anything into the

00:11:59.340 system or very little into the system but those are it's a crime to lie on your taxes and commit

00:12:04.800 isn't that tax fraud to claim a dependent no no there's just that is no no it's not tax fraud

00:12:10.240 i'm saying there's people who get more out of the system than they put into the system okay but they're

00:12:15.560 still at stake because they still live here now are their lives not at stake if we're legislating them

00:12:20.400 that that wouldn't follow that because they live here they deserve the right to vote though

00:12:24.540 yes it's i mean no taxation without representation that's the point of representative democracy is

00:12:29.620 that everyone is represented then how come their founding fathers didn't give everybody the right

00:12:32.740 to vote from the beginning i mean the founding fathers also endorsed and owned slaves yeah but

00:12:36.700 that's just let it finish go ahead i mean the founding fathers also endorsed and owned slaves okay

00:12:41.820 but do you believe in chattel yeah so so you do realize that they could do bad thing right i can

00:12:48.380 agree that's bad thing but that has nothing relationally to do with how they set up the system of

00:12:53.560 government i mean i thought this was going to be a debate on feminism honestly i think that's kind 1.00

00:12:57.200 of wild because it sounds like you're disenfranchising men so who do you think would

00:13:01.140 be are you trying to not disenfranchise i'm not you are you're taking away disenfranchising men calm

00:13:05.800 down i'll explain if you're taking away the votes of a man because he is not um i guess landowning is

00:13:12.000 that what the what's the criteria for having a vote i think ultimately more men would be voting 0.90

00:13:16.280 because they would have more stake so can i ask can every man go to prison yeah okay if they commit a

00:13:22.320 crime they can go to prison yeah everyone can do that yes okay and everyone is in this country has

00:13:29.380 to abide by the laws of this country otherwise they will go to prison yes yeah okay so why wouldn't

00:13:34.840 they be allowed to vote on the representatives that define those laws if they that is a stake if you can

00:13:39.660 go to prison for committing a crime that is created by the government then you do have a stake

00:13:44.880 legislatively in the laws that the government creates that still wouldn't follow that you would

00:13:48.140 need to vote yes you would need to vote you want to vote for the representatives that create laws

00:13:52.220 that are just and fair to you yeah why like you could have because you could go to prison that's

00:13:55.780 a huge state let me show i'll show you right can kings put you in prison yeah can kings also pass just

00:14:02.040 laws sometimes maybe okay so if kings pass just laws why do you need to vote well why did we

00:14:08.620 fight the question before you ask another one i just answered all of yours if a king passes just laws

00:14:15.220 why would you need to vote because the king can also pass unjust laws so can legislatures sure but

00:14:19.860 if you have a stake in that and if you're able to represent for your legislature you can vote a

00:14:23.540 legislator yeah but you can also rebel against kings so like that's what i'm saying your position

00:14:28.260 doesn't follow it doesn't actually follow for you to say that because you can be imprisoned inside

00:14:34.600 of a nation that that somehow gives you the right to vote well because you have a stake you're saying

00:14:38.380 that hang on i'm falsifying your claim i'm falsifying your claim if you claim kings make

00:14:44.540 just can make just laws right yes then i don't understand why would people need to vote when

00:14:50.460 kings are making just laws well then why would we leave the monarchy of england if kings can make just

00:14:55.180 laws why would we leave well in that case they had you had a nation apart that had a rebellion against

00:15:01.320 the king that's what was going on but kings have been rebelled against historically under certain

00:15:05.780 circumstances many times so you'd like to go back to feudalism like you don't believe in democracy

00:15:10.520 well yeah that is no it would be a feudalism is under a monarchy it would be called limited democracy

00:15:15.900 which is exactly what we had here do you think we had feudalism because most people couldn't vote

00:15:20.140 here we had limited democracy and then there were like several many uprisings against that limited

00:15:25.180 democracy because everyone deserves there wasn't uprisings really against that the only uprising that

00:15:30.020 i'm aware of in american history against america was the civil war the civil war the civil rights

00:15:34.900 but that wasn't about voting that wasn't about voting the civil rights movement no no no no no

00:15:40.640 the civil war wasn't about voting well i mean it was about the owning of chattel slaves so not

00:15:45.920 about voting then which is also about human and civil rights but not about voting though but voting

00:15:51.440 is a civil right i don't know i'm not sure that i believe it's about freedom and it's about

00:15:56.620 representation yeah yeah so the point is representation so let's back up that's what voting is voting is

00:16:00.720 representation and i understand but you haven't actually made the positive case for why people

00:16:04.520 need to be able to vote people need to be able to vote because they have a stake in the legislation

00:16:08.920 in this country if you can be imprisoned at this country if you can be robbed of your bodily autonomy

00:16:15.140 by the legislators of this country then you should be able to have a stake in what the laws that those

00:16:20.040 legislators are making well let's see if this makes sense do you agree with me that individually

00:16:24.240 individual voters don't actually have very much power at all individual voters no but that's the

00:16:29.900 point of a collective yeah i'm with you so individuals already don't really have very

00:16:34.520 much power just because they can vote right sure so isn't it the case actually that what you're

00:16:39.220 advocating for is political tribalism because you don't have individual power as a voter you actually

00:16:45.080 have to tribalize with other voters in order to have any sort of collective power right well you're

00:16:50.120 taking away power from all the voters answer my question please tribalism the idea that you as the

00:16:57.880 individual do not have power right you do have to collectivize with other people right okay but how

00:17:03.940 is it yes or no no yeah okay no but here's my question how is taking away more people's votes

00:17:11.860 disincentivizing political tribalism yes because now i have to band with someone because now i have

00:17:17.080 to band with someone who has a vote i don't even get a stake so you're saying because people don't have

00:17:22.160 enough power to vote i'm going to take what little power they do have you're not answering my question

00:17:26.820 though it just doesn't make sense yeah i know but you got to answer my question it just doesn't

00:17:30.460 sound like you believe in it sounds like you need to answer my question though it sounds like

00:17:33.820 your question is yeah meant to trap me can you just can you just answer the question please

00:17:39.060 what's what's fallacious about my argument you're saying that people do not have a stake in this

00:17:43.560 country therefore they do not have a right to vote it's not what i said what you're doing is a

00:17:47.140 straw man fallacy can we go back yeah you can go you can go back what i said to you specifically

00:17:51.760 is what you're saying doesn't logically follow and when i'm talking about political tribalism

00:17:56.060 do you agree with me that you do if you need to have collectives to have actual political power

00:18:02.200 are you not promoting political tribalism if you need to have collect but that's how voting works

00:18:08.120 it's about a majority so then you are promoting collective political tribalism right so voting

00:18:13.840 and then the will of the majority is essentially political tribalism is what you're saying well it's

00:18:19.340 not really the will of the majority here's what happens no not really do you understand how voting

00:18:23.840 works do you yeah okay well then tell me how it's the will of the majority when a california

00:18:29.240 legislator gets elected well everyone who would like to vote can vote and then whoever what about

00:18:34.680 the most what about the people in georgia wins well why would a person in georgia get to vote on so

00:18:39.460 it's not really the collective it's the tribe right but then georgians get to vote for their right so

00:18:44.520 it's a tribe then and then all of those legislators come together so it's a tribe so it's a tribe

00:18:49.580 it's not a tribe but those are called states yeah states and states are voting for their own

00:18:54.780 interests right but states will vote for the governors why would i get to vote for the governor

00:18:59.660 hold on pause listen to me why would i get to vote for the governor of let's say tennessee if i don't

00:19:06.020 live in tennessee makes sense okay so it's almost like it's almost like these individual states

00:19:10.880 right they vote along tribal lines for that state's particular interest right yes and they're not each

00:19:16.500 state has a representative right which they said collective government sure in the federal

00:19:20.940 government right you're talking about in our senate and in our congress right yes great so let's start

00:19:26.460 with this if it is the case that you have california and nevada these are two states which are next to

00:19:31.340 each other you agree right yes can these states vote against each other's interests when it comes to

00:19:35.400 resources in the federal government yes no even at the state level they can right why would they be

00:19:41.240 able to at the state level i can't vote for the nevada governor i can't vote for because perhaps

00:19:45.700 there's something that perhaps nevada perhaps nevada has some type of i don't know assessed

00:19:51.060 attacks or something like this uh that they're able to collect which disproportionately affects

00:19:56.460 californians in some way they can do that right what law is that whatever it would be they can do it

00:20:03.580 does it exist or does it not exist listen can they do that can they do that is my question can nevada

00:20:09.560 legislate against california no they're not legislating against listen to my question actually i want you to

00:20:14.760 repeat my question so i know you actually heard it i'm sorry i'm not a dog can you can you repeat

00:20:18.520 it well it's called steel manning a position say the question okay can states vote against other states

00:20:24.000 interests simply by having a neighboring state right let's just say for instance that you were to have

00:20:30.360 like oh i don't know trucks which went between nevada and california right and california took advantage

00:20:37.500 of this by raising uh taxes on gasoline but only on the border areas where these goods came in

00:20:42.960 this disproportionately hurts nevada truckers for some reason right they can do that right

00:20:48.000 yes they can do okay great so in california if that was beneficial to californians they would

00:20:54.040 basically be voting for their tribe against nevada right but is that happening it does happen

00:20:58.380 trying to use a hypothetical no there's tons and tons of instances where different states do various

00:21:02.100 things even asking for federal money in overages compared to other states for different problems same

00:21:07.000 thing with disaster support they definitely are all trying to support their tribe right okay so

00:21:12.600 because states can potentially hypothetically vote against another state's interest men and

00:21:17.760 women should not have the right no that's not the conclusion but that's what that was your argument 1.00

00:21:22.140 no that's no we're again do you know what a descriptor is one marriage voting system why don't you 0.94

00:21:27.940 understand the difference between a descriptor and prescriptor what did i prescribe what you

00:21:32.680 prescribed is one voting system is a voting system in which what i'm doing and women are disenfranchised 0.99

00:21:37.300 what i'm doing right now is i'm giving you descriptors so we can determine if it's tribalism or not

00:21:41.660 because you said it's not tribalism to have collectivism in voting blocks which is insane

00:21:45.880 but what you haven't been able to answer is why disenfranchising more voters is somehow solving

00:21:51.460 political tribalism let her get to the end of the sentence please well let me explain it

00:21:55.320 sure the best way that i possibly can your worldview promotes political tribalism so what happens is this

00:22:02.500 ngos can go to our government and they can bribe them for voting blocks and that's exactly what they do 1.00

00:22:07.680 non-government organizations do this and lobbyists do this and what they do is they raid the treasury

00:22:13.340 from people like you and me so that they can bribe certain portions of the electorate in order to

00:22:17.920 incentivize them to collectivize that's why black people often vote as a monolith for instance they 1.00

00:22:22.900 vote monolithically up to 80 90 percent together especially in national hang on especially in national

00:22:28.620 elections because they're promised made certain promises out of the treasury from the electorate

00:22:34.560 usually at the expense of other forms of the of uh of voters this is 100 tribalism so how are ngos

00:22:42.400 bribing politicians influencing who black people as individuals choose to vote for how do ngos do

00:22:49.180 that i just don't understand how you're saying i mean i agree that ngos should not be bribing and

00:22:55.400 lobbyists shouldn't be bribing but instead of i mean that's what they do though right okay but we're

00:22:59.440 trying to get back to your claim that i'm in the middle of my claim okay well i'm responding because

00:23:05.340 this is a conversation yeah sure so we're trying to get back to your claim that less people from both

00:23:10.920 sexes should be able to vote yeah no that's not where we just were where were we just your initial 0.81

00:23:16.780 yeah but now you're just pivoting where we just were was well you're not letting me finish my sentence

00:23:20.860 no because you're pivoting we're talking right now about whether tribalism is descriptively true in

00:23:26.360 your voting system i understand that but we're trying to get back to your initial claim because

00:23:30.880 you have a very important claim to defend you're trying to take votes away from the american people

00:23:35.200 poorly but let's get okay um so ngos bribe lobbyists bribe and that is impacting who and what politicians 0.56

00:23:44.260 are promoting i would agree with that statement would you agree with that statement uh well not just what

00:23:48.780 they're promoting but uh also they are setting the precedent for laws themselves okay yeah so they

00:23:55.220 actually i would i would even argue back that ngos and private think groups write the laws in which

00:24:01.040 politicians most often execute and so do bankers as well i agree with that so why would taking away

00:24:08.160 votes from the average american and singular citizen prevent ngos and lobbyists from having an ability to

00:24:15.840 impact and predict and create laws yeah so if you're if you move to stakeholder democracy this idea that

00:24:22.880 you had to have some sort of public service or something like this it actually collect devices

00:24:26.960 down the voting pool which adds responsibility to the voters who can then be held accountable which

00:24:32.800 right now voters can't be that's why that's why it's so important so you're not saying so you're

00:24:39.040 saying how well legislators will create laws that hold those voters accountable the ones who have to

00:24:44.520 follow them do you not how are they well that's not you being held accountable it is being held

00:24:48.420 accountable no no so right now under tribalism you can get laws passed which affect me but benefit

00:24:55.520 you i can't go like hold you somehow accountable for that but that's how a majority voting works

00:25:01.380 that's how i know which is why i want limited democracy where we can actually hold people

00:25:05.520 accountable to be in charge how would i be in charge if it's stakeholder democracy well you said

00:25:11.240 one marriage voting system that could be one way of doing it yes okay what are the other ways of

00:25:15.820 another good way would be public service so perhaps up to three to five years unpaid

00:25:22.560 or military service would be good so during this public service in which people are working three

00:25:27.700 to five years unpaid how are they paying for food and groceries and housing yeah so the state would

00:25:32.660 take care of that just like they do in the military the state would take care of that like they do in

00:25:36.560 the military and how do you plan on getting that passed what does that have to do with anything

00:25:41.700 well because let's say i could never get it passed we're arguing the ideology of this system what does

00:25:46.680 that do with anything what's the point in creating an ideology that will never work how are you going

00:25:50.300 to get marxism passed you're not so are you aren't you a marxist but you're a marxist right how did

00:25:56.600 you know that well i don't know that's what your videos seem to imply that you believe in marxist

00:26:00.760 feminism oh i don't know are you a socialist on a certain level okay how are you going to get

00:26:05.700 socially like that's silly that us making the comparison contrast between like socialism capitalism

00:26:10.780 has no bearing on whether or not i could somehow get this passed or have some plan to get it passed

00:26:15.700 okay i'm arguing about the ideology here do you want to understand my belief or do you just want to

00:26:19.900 guess well hang on what does that do you know what i just said though i mean you just called me a

00:26:24.480 marxist do you agree well if you're not a marxist i retract that you said you're somewhat a

00:26:28.580 socialist that's fair but do you realize that we're doing a comparison contrast of worldviews

00:26:32.860 and ideology for doing contrast worldview and ideology it's a non-sequitur to ask me well how

00:26:37.640 are you going to get it passed what does that have to do with anything well why would you create a

00:26:41.380 worldview that fundamentally cannot work in practice well it's not a worldview that fundamentally cannot

00:26:46.340 work in practice even if i couldn't even if i couldn't prescriptively tell you like the next

00:26:52.060 political chain of things we do to get there has nothing to do with whether or not the worldview in

00:26:56.360 practice would work well do you have any practical guesses for how we could apply this to a modern day

00:27:00.720 society well i just yeah yeah i just told you how we would apply it you would have stakeholder

00:27:05.460 democracy okay so that's just so one day we're just going to flip a switch and have that like i don't

00:27:10.760 understand what do you mean okay you could have an amendment for it you could repeal the 19th amendment

00:27:15.680 you could so you want to repeal the right to vote or just replace it it wouldn't be what i'm talking

00:27:20.780 about is universal suffrage you keep on making a conflation in terms you think that uh because i

00:27:26.360 say universal suffrage that means no suffrage i'm talking about limited suffrage so who gets to decide

00:27:32.100 who gets the right didn't i literally just tell you who gets to decide who or who gets to vote okay

00:27:37.280 so everyone who participates in this public service gets the right that could be one way to do it yes

00:27:45.440 okay um and that anyone could do that yeah yeah people people could do it if they're willing to

00:27:52.000 give up x amount of years of their lives on for unpaid service so that they could then vote but

00:27:56.660 it's not unpaid service because the government would be paying for their food and their housing

00:27:59.680 yeah but you wouldn't be getting anything additional to that okay well why not just have

00:28:03.160 civil servants who are already because civil servants have specific jobs to do like you know working

00:28:09.400 at the dmv and stuff like that and working in the social security office so you're basically saying

00:28:13.800 anyone who does community service should get the right to vote no some sort of civil occupational

00:28:17.700 service under the state that could be like civil firefighting work maybe uh it could be civil

00:28:22.580 paramedic work it could be all there's all sorts of different things you can look at for

00:28:26.100 uh stakeholder democracy when we've seen it applied around the world it's been somewhat successful and

00:28:31.060 do the laws apply to everyone in the society or just the people who yeah they still apply to

00:28:35.820 everyone yeah okay so how can you create and apply a law to people who are not represented

00:28:42.780 i just don't understand morally how do you justify there's nothing immoral about it there's nothing

00:28:48.180 immoral no i mean but that's like i would say it's more immoral why is it moral for an 18 year old to

00:28:53.280 nullify the vote of a 41 year old the 18 year old doesn't even know what they're voting for how's

00:28:57.020 that moral well because the 18 year old is still subject to the laws of the state yeah but they don't

00:29:02.360 even know what they're voting for can an 18 year old go to jail for 20 years a 16 year old can't should

00:29:07.960 they be able to vote 16 year olds can't go to jail yes they can 16 year olds can go to jail for life 0.71

00:29:12.240 should they be able to vote i mean no but why why not why not the laws apply to him though why would

00:29:17.420 a 16 year old be going hang on i don't understand because he murdered someone okay that's fair i mean 0.87

00:29:21.340 if you murder someone that's a whole so i don't understand why can't he vote the laws apply to him

00:29:25.320 why can't he vote yeah but we all understand no we all understand it's not an argument why does a 16

00:29:30.960 year old get to vote even though all the lies uh laws apply to the 16 year old why does he get to vote

00:29:36.140 they start in juvenile detention and then at 18 so so laws apply to 16 year olds but you're retried

00:29:43.120 at 18 so when laws apply to 16 year olds some laws of course okay great why can't they vote then so

00:29:49.080 babies should get the right to vote that's my question to you that makes no sense exactly so 0.97

00:29:53.160 why do we limit it to 18 well that's the age that we've defined as being a legal adult that's the age

00:29:57.580 that we as a country have universally agreed with our right to vote is yeah but what makes that a good

00:30:02.040 idea just because you arbitrarily that's yeah but just because you arbitrarily say for instance that

00:30:07.700 because you're 18 and you're an adult like you can't buy cigarettes you can't buy beer you can't rent

00:30:14.960 a car but you're an adult and now you can vote in the participation of democracy at least raise it

00:30:21.360 so you'd like to raise it at least raise it so you would like to universally raise the age to vote

00:30:26.580 i think that would be a better idea than like not no no no no no what i say is at least do that

00:30:32.440 but the thing is like you're actually inconsistent here you your whole argument is to say if laws

00:30:39.020 affect people they should have a right to vote but we have an entire cast of people from the age 17

00:30:43.720 down who laws apply to and can't vote and you just are like you shrug that off like you didn't

00:30:48.380 contradict yourself i'm pretty sure it has something to do with brain development but we've all like you

00:30:52.060 have to have not fully developed till what 25 according to the studies in which you don't

00:30:56.560 have an age that someone becomes i agree but why couldn't you have a society in which you had

00:31:01.280 stakeholder democracy it would be it's the same logic so if you're saying that we should not

00:31:06.980 disenfranchise children why would you then disenfranchise people who are legal adults what

00:31:10.520 do you when did i ever make the claim that i wanted children to be able to vote you just said

00:31:15.660 that if everyone should no i told you that your view is inconsistent if it is the case propositionally

00:31:21.440 you say andrew if laws apply to people they should be able to vote except oh i don't know

00:31:26.740 everybody's 17 and under that's inconsistent hang on hang on it's inconsistent and a contradiction

00:31:32.680 but laws do apply what about the laws that don't what about the laws that don't what about the laws

00:31:37.840 where you're 17 years old and you can be tried as an adult well those are to protect like public

00:31:42.060 freedom i mean but everyone loses civil liberties when they are a danger to the public yeah but do you

00:31:47.220 that's everyone do you understand that you're you're making a contradiction when you say if laws

00:31:52.560 should apply to all all people should should have a right to vote because they have to they

00:31:57.480 have laws which can be applied they can be sent to prison was your example that would have to

00:32:01.300 include everyone under the age of 18 but people under the age of 18 don't go to adult yes they

00:32:05.900 do all the time yes they do that is that is you want me to give you sources of 16 17 year olds

00:32:12.940 tries adults and sent to adult prisons okay but that's like an exception for exclusively horrific

00:32:18.800 crimes i mean those are violent offenders does the law apply to them or not to violent offenders if

00:32:24.700 you are a threat to public safety yes everyone then if the law applies to them and they can be sent

00:32:29.340 to jail then by your logic they should be able to vote which means you're in contradiction to those

00:32:33.700 offenders they are sent to juvenile detention centers until they turn 18 and then they are sent to

00:32:38.800 an adult prison no they're sent often to adult centers even at 17 to adult prisons you can be

00:32:45.960 sentenced as an adult but you can't be sent to an adult prison at the age of 16 this would depend

00:32:51.040 widely on the state that you're in it's not rigorously enforced across the board like you think

00:32:55.820 there's not like i don't think there's federal laws which say that but even if it were the case

00:33:00.500 i'll just grant it well then that's wrong i'll even grant the entire thing it still wouldn't matter

00:33:05.420 laws apply to them they can still be sent to prison they fit both of your criteria therefore if you

00:33:11.120 say they shouldn't be able to vote your worldview is in contradiction well then i think that's wrong

00:33:14.840 i don't believe that children should be tried as adults until they have become adults so no laws

00:33:19.560 apply to children no well why shouldn't they be able to vote a threat to public safety is always 0.96

00:33:25.280 applies to everyone threats to public safety always apply to everyone yeah but why shouldn't they

00:33:28.720 be able to vote if laws apply to them that's your example laws apply to children but they are not

00:33:32.900 in practice punished in the same way that they apply to adults it's applied can they be punished

00:33:37.420 of course then why can't they vote but you have to have some way to maintain societal control children 0.97

00:33:42.540 aren't just allowed to do whatever the fuck they want because they're right you need to be able to 0.76

00:33:45.960 have some sort of societal control so this would mean necessarily disenfranchising some people 0.88

00:33:52.220 wouldn't it it would mean necessarily disenfranchising children yes they're not no it would also mean

00:33:56.780 disenfranchising prisoners do you want prisoners to vote on their right to own guns in a prison

00:34:00.440 not their right to own guns in a prison well then you're disenfranchising that people who

00:34:04.900 were in prison and then leave prison should then have felons but they're disenfranchised currently

00:34:10.000 under the law right no they're not yes they are if you're a felon you can't vote yes oh well once

00:34:15.480 they leave yes i do think that that's disenfranchisement and i think florida just

00:34:18.660 rolled that back yeah but what's wrong with disenfranchising like murderers for life what's

00:34:24.220 wrong with disenfranchising well they would be in jail for life no no no they're out of jail they're

00:34:27.980 just felons so they can't vote well they yeah i think that felons should be able to vote once

00:34:32.840 should felons be able to own guns no because oh i don't understand you so you're just again

00:34:37.720 you are so inconsistent with your disenfranchising do you understand what disenfranchisement should

00:34:44.740 exist so long as someone is a threat to public safety the reason why prisoners are not allowed

00:34:49.740 to vote who are currently in prison is because they are a threat to public safety 16 year olds aren't

00:34:54.260 a threat to public safety no but they're children you can't allow anyone so you can arbitrarily

00:34:59.800 disenfranchise people based on the fact that you think they're not capable of making good voting

00:35:04.320 decisions right no a child is legally different than an adult because they can't make you can't 0.82

00:35:09.820 have sex with a child because they can't make because they can't make good decisions no because 0.80

00:35:13.940 they're legally classified as a child do you not understand because they can't make good decisions 0.96

00:35:17.660 because they're two and three and four they're not legally so they can't make good decisions no they can

00:35:22.920 make good decisions but generally speaking you can't have children vote there is i agree with you 1.00

00:35:28.640 you can't but why why is it then that if i were to say that i only want 25 year olds to vote i would

00:35:34.160 be disenfranchising you only want 25 year olds to vote you do you understand you only want one 0.88

00:35:38.680 marriage voting system per house yeah well that's one way yeah you want less of both adult men and 0.99

00:35:44.360 do you understand how my view is consistent but yours isn't because if we if you were to agree with me

00:35:48.860 that you wanted like okay andrew i would compromise a 25 year olds voting you've now disenfranchised

00:35:54.060 everyone from the ages of 18 through 24 if you were all overnight you should be able to vote

00:35:59.060 that's my state if you are considered a legal adult if you are tried as an adult if you are allowed to

00:36:06.100 buy a house yeah have a child but that leads to the problem is is that that leads to political tribalism

00:36:12.320 so like for instance how why is it a healthy society to have men and women who are married

00:36:17.740 voting against each other that's a terrible idea because they're both like but if a man commits a

00:36:23.180 murder is his what does his wife go to jail for that crime no no because they're not the same 1.00

00:36:27.300 fucking person what does that have to do with anything if they're different people and they're 0.98

00:36:30.560 both tried differently and they both have separate lives and separate bank accounts yeah and separate 1.00

00:36:35.700 bodily and physical autonomy yeah then they should each get a stake in this government

00:36:39.160 no well i that literally has nothing to do with what i just asked they're not the same so real

00:36:44.500 quick why should they be represented remember how i said yes and no to your question can you do that

00:36:48.620 for me remember i was like yes and just answered it can you actually do that for me too i don't

00:36:52.960 remember that at all you literally just asked me that question you said if a husband's carted off

00:36:57.220 to prison does her wife go to prison i said no okay can you do that for me too and then give your

00:37:01.720 explanation because otherwise i don't know your actual position and then gave the explanation so now i'd

00:37:05.760 like to know do you think it's a good idea for wives and husbands to uh be able to vote against

00:37:12.020 each other's interests they should both have a vote yes well that's but they can't vote against

00:37:18.440 each other's interests right is circumstantial they may not they might yeah they may not they might

00:37:22.660 i agree with that yeah but why is it good that that option's even there seems like a terrible idea

00:37:27.780 because in a representative democracy everyone should be representative with a vote yeah i get that's

00:37:31.580 a descriptive truth but you're not telling me why that should be the case if i were to give you the

00:37:35.700 counterclaim here i would say if you had like one household voting or something like this it would

00:37:40.860 be much more uniform and wouldn't divide families against each other and that's exactly what the

00:37:45.280 vote has done but they're both subject to the same legislative like they can both be legislated

00:37:50.220 independent of each other right no well not really one cannot at that point make a decision that

00:37:55.500 doesn't affect the other one usually yes i can not really what i mean roe v wade that only affects

00:38:02.080 a woman's body right no you think that if a man is married to a woman and she goes and aborts his 1.00

00:38:07.540 baby that doesn't affect him of course it does but it affects him differently than his body but it's

00:38:11.280 still but that's my whole point is is that everything they do in this household is going to affect each

00:38:16.300 other sure so you wouldn't want to promote systems which divide husbands against wives but they're

00:38:21.140 individuals no what does that do with anything are they the same person or not this is not what's in

00:38:26.360 dispute are they the same person or not okay no then why should they not each have an individual

00:38:32.200 liberty what if they get because you don't want to set up systems that divide them against each other

00:38:36.420 that's a bad idea someone who doesn't want to vote for you with you but that's no do you understand

00:38:41.500 like people's preferences change over time and there could be various reasons in which uh if you have a

00:38:47.540 tribal uh type of mentality like take abortion for instance abortion's a great one uh do you think that 0.86

00:38:53.760 it's possible that women for instance could hold it against their husband and say things like do 1.00

00:38:59.880 this or i'll abort your child they could actually do that right yeah hypothetically sure yeah and 0.70

00:39:05.040 have done that and have done that that would be yeah but but you wouldn't say they couldn't go get

00:39:09.780 the abortion would you but would you say a man but hang on hang on answer the question first what

00:39:14.660 you wouldn't say that they shouldn't be allowed to do that though would you well if it would be

00:39:19.320 disenfranchising millions of other women who aren't no no that's yes or no please 1.00

00:39:23.740 you wouldn't say that you you would not actually say that they should not be allowed to get the

00:39:29.560 abortion right no i think everyone should have access to okay so even if it were the case that a

00:39:34.480 woman right was holding uh the man basically emotionally hostage with her pregnancy and said do

00:39:41.040 what i say or i'll get an abortion right you would not make any claim that she could or could not 0.95

00:39:46.340 get that abortion would you i would make a claim that what she's doing is immoral but i wouldn't 1.00

00:39:50.480 make a claim that because should anything happen to a woman who does that yeah what i think i mean 0.99

00:39:55.740 that's blackmailing it's not blackmail i think on a level it's emotional blackmail yeah you should

00:40:00.460 be able to see what should happen should they go to jail i mean maybe pay damages or a fine a fine

00:40:05.480 yeah how much should the fine be i don't know 200 bucks how much is an abortion they'd be the 1.00

00:40:11.600 same as an abortion can i ask you a question so so just to get this right well i want to finish

00:40:15.600 this real quick no and then we can move back well no you can't tell i finished the inquiry but then

00:40:19.340 i'm not going to answer your question but then but you can inquire back i just want to finish this

00:40:23.000 inquiry the line of inquiry that's all so just to make sure i got this right you have now said that

00:40:29.960 the tribal voting does indeed uh pit husband against wife has a potential to do so right and i've even 1.00

00:40:37.640 conceded to specific examples of where it would be in a woman's interest to vote against her husband

00:40:41.600 to have a right to do something which could be used against him later and then said well the

00:40:46.020 punishment should be like oh maybe she pays a fine if something like that happens and you how are you

00:40:51.240 going to convince people that that's a better system than one household voting that's a terrible

00:40:55.500 system because then the leader of that household or the head of that household has control over

00:40:59.520 the right and the will of every single person in that household you're fundamentally denying people

00:41:03.640 free will you're not allowed to yes they are because of the fundamental denying of free will

00:41:08.420 because if they're both legislated by the same government and one of them has no say in who

00:41:13.860 is elected into that government so but still because they still have free will but you're still

00:41:19.160 impacted by laws so what you'd be impacted by laws when you're 17 they can't vote you have a

00:41:24.640 consistency issue extent as an 18 year old not at the same they can have it to the same extent as an

00:41:29.520 18 year old in very rare exceptions but yeah but they can then so you're disenfranchising people 0.67

00:41:35.320 look at you you're around the fringe you're fighting on an exception we're talking about the

00:41:38.220 general population even in the general population i'm not talking about murderers i'm not talking

00:41:41.840 about so let's start with this i'm not talking about school shooters i don't think it's generally

00:41:44.840 speaking good idea to let 18 year olds 19 year olds 20 year olds to vote to disenfranchise the votes

00:41:49.580 of people who are politically informed because they're being used as a leverage voting block for

00:41:55.260 elitists and that's what's actually happening what's actually happening was what you just said

00:42:00.220 you know ngos and lobbyists are lobbying congress to get various things passed and what they do

00:42:06.040 is they try to leverage the votes uh from a tribalist purview in order to get the things that they want

00:42:13.820 right and 18 19 20 21 year olds are highly impressionable right so we're 22 23 24 25 year

00:42:20.900 olds highly impressionable and one way that you could eliminate this idea that they could be gone

00:42:25.140 after by the parasitic ngos who run things is by simply limiting limiting the ability to vote to 0.96

00:42:31.520 people who have such a political interest that they actually do social service for up to five years

00:42:36.980 so that then we can trust them with the right to vote okay i have two statements can you let me get

00:42:42.680 through them sure okay so here's number one um i agree that lobbying generally is bad i'm not here for

00:42:50.460 ngos i don't think anyone really is i mean but the whole point of why we don't like them is because 1.00

00:42:54.800 we want to be represented by our legislators fairly and accurately and we don't want it to be

00:42:59.540 the in the control of a private interest group so lobbying is bad yes generally i think that

00:43:05.040 lobbyists and ngos are not good but what i don't understand is if that's the issue why not ban ngos 1.00

00:43:13.640 why not have a platform that's standing against ngos and lobbyists i think that'd be something great

00:43:17.900 if you did that that'd be awesome yeah so this is a great question but here's the problem right

00:43:21.600 this is the leverage of tribalism and why you can't really do that so on social issue on social

00:43:27.980 issues right there are ngos out there for instance who have a vested interest in abortions being legal 0.99

00:43:34.560 right this goes out into the social ethos and now we're battling over the social issue we have become

00:43:40.620 tribal right we've become tribal then you have ngos who battle against it let's say this social issue

00:43:47.500 they also are making a ton of money off of the counter battle let's say also utilizing political

00:43:53.740 tribalism the whole idea here is divisive tribalism is what enables ngos to begin with

00:43:59.120 they make a ton of money off especially off of race hustling and dei so then again why not just ban

00:44:05.200 ngos and lobbyists yeah you can't allow everyone to still have a vote in a representative i'm giving

00:44:09.640 you the descriptor i think it's hilarious that you keep calling democracy tribalism

00:44:13.340 it leads it leads to tribalism yeah yeah but i mean full democracy leads to tribalism there's no

00:44:20.160 way around it yeah exactly yeah so does sports sure should we ban sports why would you ban sports

00:44:26.520 that has that's a total non sequitur it makes no sense why would you ban a huge percentage of the

00:44:33.660 population from voting because i would want to avoid political tribalism so that elitists can't

00:44:38.500 exploit low information voters which they do right now in order to enslave the planet so you're 1.00

00:44:45.280 basically saying that people are too stupid to have the right to vote yes that's dumb dude don't 1.00

00:44:50.540 you agree with that yeah of course i think people are stupid well then what are you arguing with me 1.00

00:44:55.480 about i want to write to vote then i should give them the right to vote why but that's but listen 1.00

00:45:00.580 think about what you just said yeah dude i agree that people are too stupid to vote but give them 0.99

00:45:04.880 the right to vote anyway i don't think people are too stupid to vote why so they're too stupid to 1.00

00:45:09.160 function but they're smart enough you think that people who go and generally cast a ballot are high 1.00

00:45:16.020 information voters or they barely even know what the hell they're talking about i mean do you have

00:45:21.020 a statistic on how many of them yeah you could do street polls a lot of people have no idea what's

00:45:24.940 even going on with the issues a lot of people are just bust to poll booths they get bribed to do it

00:45:29.400 this happens on both sides of the aisle like how many times have you seen canvassing campaigns who

00:45:34.940 go out there and they're canvassing they knock on doors that people don't even know what the hell

00:45:38.580 they're talking about so what you think we should do an iq test for everyone to have that's been

00:45:42.220 suggested right but i have a better plan than an iq test i would not disenfranchise a person from being

00:45:49.280 able to vote because they have like an average iq yeah what i would do is disenfranchise a person to vote

00:45:54.260 if they were low information one way i could find out if they were really politically motivated

00:45:59.040 is if they sacrificed years of their lives to the state in order to get that right to vote so 0.99

00:46:04.000 you want to punish people for being stupid uh no i just don't want them to nullify well-informed votes 0.99

00:46:10.160 from people who are smart and on the issues and understand the issues but taking away someone's 1.00

00:46:15.620 vote would be punishing them in a sense it's not punishing them it's actually stopping them from

00:46:19.840 punishing themselves and the rest of society because they're easily exploited by social elites

00:46:25.000 that's fair i mean but why not then just target education like why not then we spend five percent

00:46:31.400 of the entire gdp of the united states on education it's the highest anywhere in the world and we have

00:46:37.380 some of the dumbest people on planet earth our literacy rate is barely you know what the literacy 0.99

00:46:43.400 rate is yeah it's garbage it's trash and we spend five percent the biggest gdp on planet earth we spend 1.00

00:46:49.020 five total percent of our gdp on education and you think that education's gonna solve the problem 1.00

00:46:55.320 of the low information the issues that people are stupid help them be smarter there's a lot of that 0.96

00:47:00.440 is is a mixture of genes and environment and nourishment and all sorts of different things 0.99

00:47:05.480 it's like you can't this whole progressive idea environment and nourishment hang on why not 0.98

00:47:09.940 this whole stupid progressive idea of like you just can just educate people into whatever it is 1.00

00:47:17.100 it's like no you really can't like there's a lot of people who are just going to be fucking janitors 1.00

00:47:22.480 okay there's a lot of yeah okay there's a lot of people who are just going to be fucking janitors 1.00

00:47:29.060 and who are just going to be fucking toilet bowl cleaners and who are just going to be fucking 1.00

00:47:34.080 bartenders and are really not meant to build fucking rocket ships okay i know but they're still 1.00

00:47:39.820 subject to laws yeah i know but just and it's frustrating but it's just a fact if i want free will 0.94

00:47:45.560 and they want and you want free will and we deserve the right to vote then they do no you're

00:47:49.740 not eliminating free will by this you are you're protecting the rest of society from low information

00:47:55.060 information voters destroying their lives like do you think really think let me ask you this

00:48:00.400 let me ask you this if you were to yeah but you're not really doing that what you're doing

00:48:05.140 a vote is an exercise in free will let me ask you this if you had to choose

00:48:08.860 right for your family sure and you knew that you could move them to a place where there was a

00:48:14.960 bunch of people who were highly informed on political processes in the local community or 0.95

00:48:19.860 you can move to a place where people didn't give a shit right which place would you prefer them to 0.89

00:48:24.140 be i would prefer them to be in the higher of course right at the place where the people are the most 0.61

00:48:28.460 informed speaking of which my mother's calling me here i'm a screener sorry mom love you now if if you

00:48:33.620 were able to if these people were able to cast votes and nullify all of the votes of you high

00:48:39.060 information voters right wouldn't it actually be better for them and for you to disenfranchise

00:48:44.980 their voting so that you guys could actually vote on political and policy issues that made sense 0.99

00:48:51.220 well i don't think that stupid people are nullifying all of the votes of smart people 0.98

00:48:54.780 really think about what you just said can you think about think about what you just do you think 1.00

00:49:02.480 there's more stupid people or smart people in this country yeah it's probably okay so you really don't 1.00

00:49:08.840 think stupid people are nullifying the votes of smart people on a certain level yeah yeah at the same 1.00

00:49:14.280 time they still deserve free will i can't they still have free will they don't because they're still 1.00

00:49:19.020 subject voting voting is a privilege if you go to australia and you commit a crime can you go to

00:49:25.540 jail in australia yeah but you can't vote in australia right sure so you see how that makes no sense

00:49:31.580 like what you're saying makes no sense travel to another country and endanger people like that's

00:49:36.100 a threat you're not even endangering people if you're just like drunken public you can be arrested

00:49:40.200 that is a threat to public safety public intoxication look that doesn't mean you're going to actually do

00:49:44.960 anything wrong right but you could yeah or i mean drunken people are habitually or you could break

00:49:50.180 statistically more or you could break some public ordinance right you could break some public

00:49:54.020 ordinance you didn't know about like you're on a beach right and you're in your shorts and it was

00:49:58.060 supposed to be t-shirts and shorts you know something like this yeah but breaking public

00:50:01.920 ordinances doesn't lead to jail it does if you don't pay the fine well then you should pay the 0.82

00:50:05.940 fucking fine see what i mean though so you are subject to those laws and you are subject to imprisonment 0.85

00:50:10.340 based on those laws and if that's the case you can't vote in those countries okay but you're not 0.96

00:50:14.940 a citizen of that country you're still a citizen of this country if you are a citizen that's my

00:50:18.380 whole point though live here and you are subject to the laws of this country for your entire life 0.98

00:50:22.160 from birth to death yeah you should have why do you want why do you want dumb people to disenfranchise 0.57

00:50:27.260 your well-informed vote that makes no sense not only that you say that you're actually emboldening 0.98

00:50:33.040 them with their free will right it's like that's so silly because ultimately these people who are

00:50:38.100 politically low information they're so low information you're allowing them to get taken advantage of 0.83

00:50:43.120 of course i don't want dumb people to disenfranchise my vote but i don't think that the solution to 0.67

00:50:46.980 that is a one marriage voting system or you have to do public service for five years give me an 1.00

00:50:52.160 alternative but can't dumb people do that too like couldn't a dumb person just do some fucking 1.00

00:50:56.200 community service for five years and then get paid i mean like there are dumb people in the army 1.00

00:51:00.220 listen i agree with you that there can be some stupid people who get through the system but they're not 0.99

00:51:05.300 going to be probably low information you're not going to go through five years of civil service like that 0.99

00:51:10.540 for the purpose of being able to vote and be low information or you wouldn't do it you have an

00:51:15.600 interest that's what the whole point is well i mean if your housing and your food is paid for i think

00:51:20.140 there are a lot of people who would be interested in that the army i mean that's like exactly the army

00:51:24.200 you have to take the army you have to take an asvab test and you have to score x amount of a score in 0.95

00:51:29.660 order to even be placed in those things big dog my boyfriend's a vet he talks about some dumb 0.99

00:51:34.460 motherfuckers in the army sure there's dumb people in the army but so they would but to qualify for 1.00

00:51:38.940 certain jobs you can't be and for civil service or something like this you can do intelligence tests 1.00

00:51:43.220 there's things like that you're basically saying there should be an iq test and only those who

00:51:47.080 would like to be civil servants if you're past that iq test well i think you should probably

00:51:50.780 implement an iq test for the military too which they do yeah but i mean but they do but they do

00:51:58.260 unless it's in wartime and they're like okay well uh we just you just need a body in here and then

00:52:03.120 they'll grab anybody off the street but yeah can we ask a vet right now i want to confirm that of

00:52:07.280 course aiden do you do iq tests for the military wait do you is you want boyfriend reveal oh sure 0.99

00:52:18.100 wait oh go go go it's okay just go around that way yeah there are people who are there who are dumb 0.96

00:52:24.060 that's true but they here baby come here come here for us if you can't just kind of like i've heard 0.95

00:52:29.000 of that it's called a cat five waiver right they give them a cat five waiver in terms of like people

00:52:39.660 in the army and iq tests like i've taken the asvab it is not a very difficult test and a lot of people

00:52:45.340 get their asvabs taken for them i knew guys in the army who were like medically diagnosable with

00:52:50.460 mental deficiencies and were still in the army doing jobs that in theory required a certain level

00:52:55.860 mental faculty sure yeah the system can get gamed but those are exceptions not the rule

00:52:59.960 i wouldn't really go that far to be honest with you and then also in terms of your you don't think 0.99

00:53:06.760 the majority of people are stupid or in the army are stupid do you i think there are a great number 0.99

00:53:11.420 of people who join the army because they want a place to live and food which is the system you 1.00

00:53:15.420 just described and that's pretty much independent they seem to be joining the army based around

00:53:20.100 patriotism the ability to get paid the ability to do things like that what's that when were you in

00:53:25.360 the army i was in the army for a very limited amount of time years and years ago how long was

00:53:29.660 that very limited amount of time if you don't let me uh it was it wasn't very about a year about a

00:53:33.740 year so what happened well it doesn't it doesn't matter what happened oh but we're talking about

00:53:38.020 service man what about it so you want to uh disenfranchise people based on military service

00:53:42.920 i actually know why why would what are you talking about how would i disenfranchise them based on

00:53:47.560 military service it would be the opposite you're requiring people to know it wouldn't require them to

00:53:53.400 serve in the army literally didn't say that i'm sorry about that yeah i literally didn't say that

00:53:58.700 thank you for your help thank you okay so now we've established that people in the army can very 0.98

00:54:05.260 much be stupid so nobody ever disputed you can have stupid people in the army okay so again we're 0.82

00:54:10.680 trying to go my question we're trying to figure out so let's see if we can't would work in terms of 1.00

00:54:15.700 yeah those who are participating in some sort of civil service yeah so you would have some type of

00:54:21.380 civil service right which a person would participate in for at least five years five years yes unpaid

00:54:27.680 yes unpaid that's ridiculous why do you think that the person who participated in it for five years

00:54:34.780 unpaid would really want to be politically informed by the end of that yeah maybe maybe not yeah i mean

00:54:41.240 five years of not having like that's five years of like housing is paid for service guarantees

00:54:47.300 citizenship so can i ask who's paying for five years of millions of people participating in a

00:54:53.600 civil well chances would be pretty good it wouldn't be millions or at least not hundreds of millions

00:54:58.560 of people participating in such a system so you would like to limit the voting block in this country

00:55:02.940 do less than there's 430 million people in this country and you'd like to limit it 330 million

00:55:07.880 hundreds of millions it's 330 million in the united states i think 336 million or something

00:55:12.980 regardless you would still like to limit it to i misspoke my bad but you would still like to limit

00:55:17.100 it to less than you would like to limit it to hundreds of thousands of people yeah you think

00:55:21.920 it's fair for hundreds of thousands of people to speak on behalf of 360 million people do you think

00:55:27.220 it's fair right now to have 100 senators do that no but we still vote for the senators yeah i know but

00:55:32.540 do you really think you're getting they don't just walk up and say hello do you do you think you're

00:55:36.620 really getting political voting wait you think you're really getting political representation

00:55:40.120 inside of a state like new york with two people

00:55:42.960 i don't live in new york i know but inside the state of new york do you really think 0.99

00:55:49.800 the state of new york is getting adequate political representation on capitol hill with two fucking 0.97

00:55:55.480 people that's why you have the senate in the house and the senate and the house two people who are 0.97

00:55:59.340 your senate you really think every state gets 100 people are representing 330 million people at the

00:56:06.280 very top it's one person who's representing 330 million people so are you advocating that we

00:56:11.400 shouldn't have government no what i'm saying to you is that like it's very silly for me to look at an

00:56:16.160 argument like you're making and say oh my god 100 000 people are going to be in charge or 200 000

00:56:21.000 people are going to be in charge like ultimately one person's in charge so you're saying ultimately

00:56:24.660 one person's in charge but there's still checks and balances that one person isn't a king

00:56:28.900 there still would be checks and balances with limited power in the guard there's still checks and

00:56:32.680 balances with limited voting yeah but we still do not get to decide who is in our legislator

00:56:37.680 as a voting body we do not get to decide who you would still have people from within your

00:56:42.060 various communities who would be voters and they would decide who it is that went to represent you

00:56:47.540 on capitol hill that sounds very expensive and very pointless if i'm being honest how is that

00:56:51.540 expensive okay fine then if you want to do that there's another way you could do this too if you

00:56:57.040 didn't want to do like the civil service way you could do one vote per household that would limit

00:57:01.900 that would limit the voting significantly hang on okay and it would be not expensive at all

00:57:07.240 okay there's even another way that you can do it on top of that all right right but let's just start

00:57:12.160 with like one household voting same thing let's do it you can eliminate whatever this like perceived

00:57:17.660 cost is that you have another thing you could do is just eliminate uh anybody being able to vote

00:57:22.520 until they reach the same age that they could become president of the united states is that not 35

00:57:27.740 so you think that everyone under 35 should lose the right to vote why shouldn't everyone under 35 0.97

00:57:32.360 that was the most boomer shit i've ever why shouldn't everybody under 35 be able to be the 0.97

00:57:36.380 president of the united states well because they don't have the but they're still why answer the 0.99

00:57:42.520 question because they do not yet have the experience in politics to run an entire country

00:57:47.260 okay andrew but just because you can't run an entire country doesn't mean that you should still

00:57:54.340 not have the right to have one singular vote it's one vote what are you talking about yes you can't be

00:58:00.280 the president but you are still susceptible to the laws you can have a kid at 35 you can have a house at

00:58:04.600 35 so what does that do with anything but you can't be president below 35 yeah legislatively yeah

00:58:12.420 below 35 yeah from 18 to 34 all of these people are impacted at the same level no they're not all

00:58:19.000 impacted the same level in fact i would say can they all go to jail for committing a crime yes i

00:58:23.780 would say the opposite i would say like people between the ages of 18 and like 25 are mostly

00:58:28.480 living at home right and their parents are the ones who are mostly impacted by legislation not them

00:58:33.360 and their parents and their parents should actually probably have more say than them their parents

00:58:37.840 actually have more autonomy than they do because they're dependents on them right completely dependent

00:58:41.760 upon them it's like if i look at the trends it seems to me like if you eliminated from 18 to 25

00:58:47.340 or from 25 to 35 if the founders didn't think you should be president of the united states till you

00:58:53.420 were 35 i don't think they wanted you to vote either and you know what that's why it was never law 0.97

00:58:58.260 voting rights are affirmed this is some old shit that's not an argument that's not an argument well i 0.98

00:59:03.700 mean the reason give me the argument you're young you're old like you are not applicable to this law 0.98

00:59:09.620 what did that have to do with anything you're trying to govern a group of people that you are not a

00:59:12.540 member of so that's the issue so what everyone should be representative government so how old do

00:59:17.420 you think the average person who's in congress is hella old and they're representing all of you

00:59:22.600 what do you mean that so you you want you think that like 19 year olds are going to be better

00:59:27.220 governing than 60 year olds no but i think i don't think an 80 year old would be a representative

00:59:32.320 government yeah but 80 year olds are dying in their depends they're not governing what do you 0.97

00:59:36.940 mean yes they are sleepy joe sleepy joe who who is in his 80s now has cancer and he's not president

00:59:43.940 because he went off the deep end i know and trump is in his 70s and mitch mcconnell is in his 80s

00:59:49.160 listen your presidents your presidents and congressmen are running like between the late

00:59:55.000 40s to 50s to 60s you don't really think that replacing them with 20 year olds a good idea do 0.77

01:00:01.300 i don't think we should replace them with 20 year olds but why not why not wait why not why not

01:00:05.560 well they'd have to be elected first yeah i know but but even if they were don't you think that would

01:00:10.060 still probably not be the worst or the that wouldn't be a good idea if they were elected uh-huh

01:00:14.940 through a democratic representative democracy don't you think they would do a worse job though than 40 50

01:00:20.140 60 year olds would we don't know who it is you can't just say universally i think a 20 year old

01:00:24.700 would be worse if they were elected democratically well why do you think our founders thought that 35 year old

01:00:30.180 years old was the minimum i think the founders thought 35 should be the minimum because you

01:00:35.120 need experience in government to be the head of the government no experience in government is even

01:00:40.320 required to become the president of the united states zero sure so why this age of 35 well because

01:00:47.140 you have to have lived in this country for long enough to understand it on a basic level

01:00:50.000 because because they also thought you just didn't have the requisite experience probably in life to

01:00:55.800 govern at all that's fair to govern the entire country i would say to govern anybody no yeah

01:01:01.740 really yeah really i think so i mean why is it that they didn't let people vote why do you think 0.95

01:01:07.360 they didn't want people to vote i mean dude they were kind of fucked up i mean do you really want to 0.91

01:01:12.260 base all of your beliefs on the founding fathers they own slaves like so so the whole world owns slaves 0.97

01:01:17.940 just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean it's right yeah we were some of the first

01:01:21.900 take people out of slavery especially the west pretty sure that was england france did it second

01:01:26.060 that west then that's that's the west england that's not america that's the west which is what

01:01:32.520 i said the west you said we were the first as in america the west is what i said i mean i don't

01:01:37.460 think we're the same country as england sure we're like yeah but we're part of the west right

01:01:41.220 like england we are not run by the same government as england yeah but we're part of the west and i said

01:01:47.760 the west is the ones who uh you can't take credit for something another country did dog

01:01:52.780 well first of all many of the people who came here came here from england right the idea of the

01:01:59.800 repudiation of slavery came from those very same uh dogmas so so like i don't know what you're

01:02:06.700 talking about we're at 4 30 we're at four okay dude you've just spent the last hour trying to defend

01:02:11.400 the belief that both that both sexes should be somehow disenfranchised from voting this whole one

01:02:17.040 per household the one marriage system and i think fundamentally you have not been able to create

01:02:22.320 an appeal why are we like closing statements here well because we're supposed to be debating feminism

01:02:26.780 we never even got to it well this would be a key a key component to this actually but i'm actually

01:02:31.200 fine with this if you want to move it on to that like but here's the thing you've never made a single

01:02:35.760 argument the argument is that people should be legislatively represented and allowed to vote yeah

01:02:41.480 that's an assertion that's just an assertion not an argument you just that's just like i think

01:02:47.020 so the argument is that people are impacted by the laws that legislators create then they should

01:02:52.460 have a say in who those legislators are yeah but whether it's a small but that's a performative

01:02:56.300 contradiction because you said that people who are affected by laws who a don't live here or b are

01:03:02.020 younger than a certain threshold should be disenfranchised contradiction it's the point

01:03:06.540 of democracy no it's listen we should be represented by a representative i need you to understand this

01:03:10.600 logically that you're performing a contradiction logically because it's a logical fallacy you were 0.99

01:03:15.300 arguing a logical what's the fallacy the fallacy is that you're trying to essentially stop stupid 0.97

01:03:20.860 people from voting by making that's not a fallacy that's not a logical fallacy let me finish the 0.99

01:03:26.400 sentence okay you're trying to stop stupid people from voting by making it so that less people can 0.97

01:03:31.240 vote which is in turn taking away the power of the voter you're trying what's the fallacy well 1.00

01:03:38.580 you're trying to empower voters by taking away yeah how is that a logical fallacy you can't empower

01:03:43.800 voters by taking away their power what do you what how am i trying to empower voters what are you

01:03:49.660 talking about you're trying to combat tribalism and that you want smart people's votes what does

01:03:54.580 that have to do with empowering voters i thought that's why you're against ngos lobbyists bribes you

01:04:00.440 want to yeah i don't i don't know what you're talking like you just don't want the i don't even

01:04:04.000 know what you're talking about what i'm saying to you is that if you want to eliminate tribalism

01:04:08.020 you don't want to have nothing but an unlimited amount of people voting where ngos can mark to 0.99

01:04:13.840 the stupid people and bend them to their will and now have that entire bracket for whatever it is 1.00

01:04:19.420 their political agendas are so again why not just get rid of ngos why is oh my god ngos are a problem 1.00

01:04:25.140 would you like to make sure less people can vote gee i'd never thought of that why don't we get rid of 0.98

01:04:29.660 ngos the people who are utilizing tribalism so that they exist boy i wish i had thought of that 0.66

01:04:34.640 you're utilizing tribalism no they're utilizing tribalism so they exist okay but you're a

01:04:39.860 political pundit you have the power to help people uh-huh why not promote a stance that is

01:04:46.020 actually useful to them instead of trying to take away their vote great a stance that would be actually

01:04:50.460 useful to them would be having their well-informed votes not nullified by non-well-informed voters of

01:04:55.760 what you believe and i believe are more than the well-informed voters that's exactly something i could 0.99

01:05:00.800 do to help everybody but you're not helping everyone because stupid people still 0.99

01:05:04.560 live here so what they still have a right to exist in a society who's taking away their right 0.99

01:05:09.700 to exist in a society nobody yes you are because they are how if they are still held accountable

01:05:15.360 to the same laws but now have no right or vote or say in who is enacting those laws and who is

01:05:23.200 representing them in government like 17 year olds final statement their children okay final statement is

01:05:30.280 like her position is a contradiction she says everybody should be able to vote inside of a

01:05:36.740 country where they are governed by the laws the problem is is that then she says all sorts of

01:05:43.540 people who fall under the criteria of being supported by laws shouldn't be able to vote it's literally a 1.00

01:05:48.960 performative contradiction then she moves to my view and agrees with my view that mostly that stupid 0.99

01:05:54.740 people outnumber smart voters and and when you're talking about uh ill or uh ill-informed voters that 0.99

01:06:01.800 ngos often take advantage of them or i mean always take advantage of them she literally agrees with all 1.00

01:06:06.920 of this but somehow still thinks it's a better idea to allow this to continue because my free i don't

01:06:13.360 know she never really gave an argument for that i don't really actually know why my turn yeah you can

01:06:17.760 okay i mean i get that you don't understand why and i get that you don't understand my argument and 0.98

01:06:23.500 i'm i'm sorry i hope one day you do but what i will say is generally yes it's annoying that stupid 0.97

01:06:29.920 people are allowed to vote even though they sometimes make poor choices and fight against 0.96

01:06:34.560 their own self-interest yes we don't like that yes we don't agree we do agree that lobbyists and

01:06:40.100 ngos have way too much power in setting presidents for laws those are both things that we mutually agree 1.00

01:06:46.920 upon however i do not think that it is fair to create a limited democracy that in turn disenfranchises 0.94

01:06:55.400 voters on the basis of being stupid i don't think that there is any way to practically enact that i 0.67

01:07:01.700 don't understand why we would do that with a constitutional convention that's how you would do it and you 0.99

01:07:09.240 don't think that the millions of people who now have lost the right to vote would they just they'd be

01:07:13.420 like okay uh well they wouldn't have a choice i mean sure protests riots there's all sorts of ways

01:07:22.160 that people have fought against a government i mean which like you're basically trying to call the

01:07:26.780 country's bluff on whether or not they care about having the right to vote which i think is just 0.94

01:07:31.200 stupid i think personally it's pointless and i think that the function of a democracy is to make 0.82

01:07:36.200 sure that everyone who has to abide by these laws is represented in government is that flawed yes 0.99

01:07:41.820 that's not even true like that are you gonna let me finish did i interrupt let's let her finish 1.00

01:07:45.400 then we're moving oh we're moving on okay so finish your thing then we're gonna okay so anyway back 0.99

01:07:49.440 to my statement yes this government is flawed yes ngos have too much power yes it's annoying when stupid 0.98

01:07:55.200 people do stupid things but at the same time the right to vote is a human right under a representative 0.99

01:08:01.240 democracy in the united states of america to take that away from voters is not the answer 0.96

01:08:07.560 to creating a more educated voting body like just genuinely it's just not all right here's what

01:08:14.400 we're going to do we have a couple chats that are going to come through guys if you want to

01:08:18.180 interact with the the stream the show the debaters 200 tts and also if you're enjoying the stream kindly

01:08:25.800 like the video if you want to support venmo cash app whatever pod without these platforms taking their

01:08:30.880 cut we're also live on twitch.tv slash whatever if you want to drop us a follow in the prime sub

01:08:35.460 also we have some merch shop.whatever.com discord.gg slash whatever we have a message here from one

01:08:42.680 moment here he paid 900 wait he paid 99 dollars to send a message yeah we have this one coming in

01:08:49.640 from peacecraft oh the audio is muted uh or actually it's not muted i'm not sure why that's not coming

01:08:57.960 through i'll just read it i have a question for rick james if you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning

01:09:02.700 how would you feel uh i think that's for you yeah how would you feel if you hadn't how would you feel

01:09:09.020 if you hadn't eaten breakfast this morning i don't just how would i feel yeah hungry probably okay all

01:09:17.500 right and we have a message here from jason cassell related to the military stuff thank you jason

01:09:23.720 jason cassell donated 200 appreciate it thank you her boyfriend is an asfab waiver you can't get

01:09:29.920 someone else to take the test you are have to be verified with id fingerprints birth certificate

01:09:36.720 ss etc all so you take it during maps thank you jason for that that's how i remember it i remember

01:09:45.360 taking it during maps in your singular year in the army how did you get off with one year well

01:09:51.100 people get hurt oh that sucks that's what happens you didn't go back we have red fox here in the 0.87

01:09:56.680 military 19 years and run uh maps all applicants take an iq test it is called the asfab and we take

01:10:03.620 significant steps to catch fraud the armed services on average reject a score of 25 yeah and below there's 0.94

01:10:09.200 basic standards for it well i agree that there can be stupid people who are there i'm just saying that 0.58

01:10:14.580 there are standards which are in place that's one and two i remember specifically taking it when i was 0.81

01:10:19.700 in maps so so how hard would this iq test be for voters on your whole i didn't really advocate for

01:10:28.520 an iq test it would just be i would be you would just be looking for like if somebody was going to

01:10:32.940 enter into service that they had at least the iq capacity to do it so they weren't like mentally 0.99

01:10:37.680 retarded well i mean isn't the whole point that we're trying to prevent stupid people from voting 0.98

01:10:42.000 that's your whole no no uninformed voters from voting okay so how does community service inform a voter 0.97

01:10:49.120 well so again i you keep what you keep doing is conflating like four different things when i say

01:10:54.620 there's here's all of our possible options yeah right um and then you're like well there's problems

01:11:00.660 with this one i agree there's problems within the confines of each of these but there's some that you

01:11:05.520 just straight up reject and give no arguments for like why is it that we can't just eliminate it from

01:11:10.180 18 to 35 if you can't be president of the united states until you're 35 seems feasible that you can't

01:11:15.640 vote until you're 35 well if the laws still apply to you between 18 to 35 yeah so then your objection

01:11:21.240 is not even to the system your objection is actually just still what your argument is which is a

01:11:26.260 contradiction but what's the prevent hold on question but what's the prevent can it can a person

01:11:31.780 over 35 be an uninformed voter yes or no yes but it's going to be way less regular than people who are

01:11:38.020 how are you proving that just because if we look at the people who turn out to vote right within these

01:11:45.720 demographics right they're it's much less than the older demographics and when they're pulled

01:11:49.800 the people in older demographics know much more about the issues than the people in the younger

01:11:53.120 demographics really yeah i don't know my grandma gets all her news from facebook we have a message

01:11:57.880 here manny fresh question for naima did i say right oh my god naima okay just question has she ever

01:12:04.080 actually studied plato's ship of state what's an actually intellectual philosophical counterpoint

01:12:09.500 against this biggest issue with socialism and communism also why are you dating your oppressor

01:12:15.060 what typical okay i'm good let's no response there okay all right guys if you want to get a message in

01:12:21.080 we're uh we're going to do 200 tts uh we let a couple below the threshold just come through there

01:12:27.240 why don't we bring it back to feminism andrew force doctrine yeah i'd like to do force doctrine 0.98

01:12:32.160 thank you there we go yeah we're fine with that but if he if she takes it down a rabbit hole then

01:12:37.240 we have to go down the rabbit hole so here's my argument do you let's start with defining these

01:12:42.520 terms can we do that sure yes so i define feminism okay as being uh a movement towards egalitarianism or 0.97

01:12:52.520 equity okay with the um stated goal of diminishing and eventually destroying patriotism

01:13:02.160 um sure that seems to be fairly historically accurate and modernly accurate yes movement towards

01:13:13.120 equity goal of um eliminating patriarchal systems yes okay i'll take it okay so um when i say the word

01:13:21.700 going forward enforcer what i mean by that word is people who utilize inside of society some form

01:13:28.600 of force or uh in order to either execute laws right or keep people safe in some capacity that

01:13:37.040 would be an enforcer okay so my argument here is that men ultimately are the enforcement arm of

01:13:45.240 everybody's rights including other men's and that women always have to appeal to other men and so they 0.96

01:13:50.780 can't actually get rid of the patriarchy but must instead comply with the patriarchy okay

01:13:57.380 that's my argument sure do you want to repeat that for me just so i can take a little note

01:14:04.240 yeah that that women basically feminists always have to appeal to the patriarchy for rights no matter 1.00

01:14:09.840 what and so feminism isn't even possible it's not even a possibility okay um 1.00

01:14:15.220 appeal to patriarchy for rights okay so can i ask do you believe that free will is a privilege

01:14:26.740 or a right or a privilege do you believe free will is a right or a privilege does free will just mean

01:14:32.240 do whatever you want um within the extent that you're not hurting yourself or others or becoming

01:14:38.140 a danger to society well then yeah it sure sounds like you're saying it is i'm sorry what then it would

01:14:43.980 be trivially true that it would have to be if you're saying that that means you can do whatever

01:14:49.880 you want unless a b c and d then it would have to be a privilege well okay so free will as i'm

01:14:56.540 defining it is the right to do with you what you want so long as you are not infringing upon another's

01:15:01.300 free will then it would trivially have to be a privilege it would have to be a privilege like by

01:15:05.940 that logic it would there would be no way around it would have to be a privilege why would it have to

01:15:09.580 be a privilege well because the second you do infringe on someone's whatever right yeah do you

01:15:17.520 have free will well yes to an extent okay so free will with some limitations let's say is free will

01:15:24.380 with the limitation then it's not free will well what do you want to call it andrew i mean i would

01:15:29.360 just maybe will okay do you think that human will is a right or a privilege um i'm not

01:15:40.400 trying to figure out what you mean by this human will like do you think that we as a society how

01:15:46.740 about maybe i can just do it this way i don't believe that human beings have inherent rights

01:15:51.120 okay thank you there we go human beings have no inherent rights

01:15:56.320 yeah correct i think instead what we call rights are actually just collective intuitions which are

01:16:06.040 in appeal to to force and then force enforces them okay so all law are you trying to say that

01:16:13.500 basically all laws are enforced through force or just yeah yeah so all all laws all laws are enforced

01:16:19.440 by force okay yeah so if you think about this the way that i would say is like do you agree with me

01:16:24.740 that rights themselves are a social construction

01:16:27.520 i mean not really so my right to own a gun is not a social construction

01:16:37.020 yeah but i'm talking about free will not like human like what is that i don't understand though

01:16:43.320 like you being able to act in will i wouldn't dispute with like you can that's what i'm saying you can

01:16:48.500 you can take actions with your will but when you say rights you're saying that those are

01:16:53.880 privileges absent duties that's a right and then a duty right would be essentially the opposite of what

01:17:03.680 a right is right yes okay so these privileges that you're talking about i think if that's what a

01:17:09.760 right is a privilege absent a duty then they all seem like they're privileges

01:17:13.580 okay but like you don't think that i guess my issue with this argument is that it's claiming that

01:17:22.920 power is based solely on force yes which to me seems like it's advocating on behalf of violence

01:17:31.620 i mean in order to enforce and maintain well yeah that's that's that's what force would be

01:17:37.240 raw force would be violence okay so that's what it does like we we advocate that police be able to

01:17:42.680 use violence in order to enforce laws right but we would prefer that they avoid it right yeah like

01:17:47.820 ultimately the what what makes people comply the threat of violence right but there are other ways

01:17:54.040 to get people to comply no yeah but what if they don't well i mean yes but i feel like that's a bit

01:18:00.840 of an extreme like no it's not a bit of an extreme that people don't comply but how does the president

01:18:05.480 have power he can't threaten violence that's all he does he is the commander-in-chief of the united

01:18:10.720 states military but he can't threaten and so basically you believe that we function in a

01:18:16.460 society solely because if we don't we will be violently hurt by the military what no i believe

01:18:25.980 that what that all of your privileges that you have in society that you're calling rights only actually

01:18:33.920 exist because of force the idea of force and force doctrine and that that is basically 100 men who

01:18:41.660 provide that okay so you're kind of giving this like might makes right argument just makes not makes

01:18:49.320 right so just might is right no just makes not makes right right would be a prescriptive ought claim

01:18:56.100 for morality i'm making a descriptive claim which is that descriptively might makes so do you not

01:19:02.760 believe that violence is immoral of course not depends on the circumstance you generally just

01:19:09.120 don't believe that violence is immoral it depends on the circumstance i mean violence in an attempt

01:19:14.360 to control others and you again that depends on the circumstance i think there's plenty of times where

01:19:19.340 you and i would agree that using violence to control others is totally acceptable i feel like 0.88

01:19:23.200 violence is necessary in self-defense and no you don't you think that violence is completely

01:19:27.960 acceptable to control prison inmates probably to uh to execute certain laws and search warrants to do

01:19:34.820 all sorts of things violence is necessary again those are both actions in self-defense or defense of

01:19:38.920 others how is that if two inmates are fighting when you're you when you're saying using yeah violence

01:19:45.560 to but it's violence to control others right but it would be in defense of others yeah but it's still

01:19:50.660 to control others it's in defense of others okay what if those people like inmates don't want to be

01:19:56.140 defended so that's what we're talking about well i mean if someone is beating another person to death

01:20:00.700 i'm sure that the person is mutual combat they both want to do it the guards then go and break it up

01:20:06.060 they're definitely using violence for control not die but fight okay but if someone is beating someone

01:20:11.120 else to death and you are yeah but that's not you see how you see how you negate the claim so you move

01:20:17.160 to the next claim can two people be fighting and then you use violence to break that up yes okay great

01:20:23.180 so then you can use violence to control people and it's perfectly acceptable it's not acceptable

01:20:27.900 though because it's it's the reason it's acceptable is because it's in defense of another person those

01:20:32.660 people want to fight who are you defending if one of them is dying or if one of them is one of them

01:20:38.060 is not dying they just want to fight they're not dying but they just want to fight okay sure so two

01:20:44.360 prison inmates but again you're using these like really really really stringently specific yeah because

01:20:49.780 if i if we go too broad and too general then if we hone it down then i can negate your stance because

01:20:56.620 what you're saying doesn't actually make logical sense but you're honing it down to a specific

01:21:00.940 example that is not representative of the entire population of the united states i feel like we

01:21:06.440 should use an example what is representative of the entire population not two prisoners who choose

01:21:11.220 to fight to the death i mean that's the furthest thing no no but do you when you make a claim

01:21:15.520 you make this claim you say andrew um violence is only just or your violence isn't justified to

01:21:23.640 control groups of people and i'm like yeah but you don't really believe that because i can give you

01:21:28.260 examples of groups of people who you would want to control with violence and you think it's totally

01:21:31.820 acceptable and you're like yeah that's true well those people have lost the right to free will by

01:21:35.640 committing but hang on you go yeah that's true but right i still now don't want to use that

01:21:42.280 example it's like that makes no sense it it's it's a refutation to your position that's why i hone

01:21:46.800 in on it okay so people we know this through the constitution essentially relinquish their right to

01:21:53.280 free will by threatening the free will of others that's why prisoners are allowed to go to jail and

01:21:57.500 that is constitutionally accepted yes say that let me make sure i got that right say that again

01:22:02.420 people essentially relinquish their right to free will the right to walk around and be free in

01:22:07.500 society as a prisoner because they have committed a crime that is a danger to themselves or others

01:22:13.640 and threatens that's the fabric of society so why do people go to jail why are crimes crimes why are

01:22:19.120 things that are bad people go to jail because we force them into jail after they commit crimes not

01:22:24.080 because they're willingly going to jail i understand they're not willingly going to jail but what i'm

01:22:28.040 saying is the forced relinquishment of free will in this instance is morally acceptable because they

01:22:34.880 have committed a crime that threatens themselves or others yeah i'm not disputing whether or not

01:22:39.080 it's moral that would make my point for me though so i'm not trying to talk about those who have

01:22:44.440 already had their free will relinquished on the basis that they have committed a crime that threatens

01:22:48.960 themselves or others i'm trying to talk about people who are not criminals who have not relinquished

01:22:55.120 their free will who are here in this country and deserve the right to choose what they do with

01:22:59.980 themselves and their bodies now okay well i mean you're making a lot of suppositions there that i

01:23:05.340 just kind of like don't agree with so you don't think that people deserve the right to bodily autonomy

01:23:10.760 no what makes someone deserve the right to bodily autonomy well when you say bodily autonomy

01:23:17.180 yeah would you agree then that a fetus has bodily autonomy i'm talking right now about human beings

01:23:24.820 well i consider those human beings though i'm talking right now about people who can talk and

01:23:28.680 walk who are independent singular organisms so people who are in comas they they have no rights 1.00

01:23:34.920 dude you keep doing comas and prisoners and fetuses just talk about a fucking person 0.99

01:23:39.140 that what about that is a person just talk about a person who is not an exception who is not in a medical 0.99

01:23:45.380 state of physical but what we're trying to determine right now was is the worldview you say people

01:23:52.460 deserve to have a bodily autonomy and then you give me the criteria for bodily autonomy and then i can

01:23:58.700 instantly point to an example where you agree that's not what we're trying to do what you're trying to do

01:24:03.280 what am i trying to do a gotcha so you don't have to answer the genuine question that i'm asking what's

01:24:06.860 the genuine question you're asking the question is do people regardless of outliers does the average

01:24:13.540 person who has not committed a crime who is not inside of another person who is not brain dead or in a

01:24:19.240 coma deserve bodily autonomy depending on what you mean by that bodily autonomy being defined as the

01:24:27.520 ability to choose what you do with your body so long as you are not threatening other people's bodily

01:24:33.560 autonomy no why not because uh i would say that things like laws against unaliving yourself would be

01:24:40.080 completely appropriate and things like this which would be a violation of your bodily autonomy by your

01:24:44.980 criteria so you think that because people can't unalive themselves no i'm saying you gave me the

01:24:53.120 criteria for what bodily autonomy means right you asked me what an objection would be against it and i just

01:24:59.160 gave you one okay so let's cut out that outlier do you think that people who are not inside another

01:25:04.840 person who have not committed a violent crime against themselves or others and who have not are not

01:25:11.800 currently brain dead and are conscious and capable of perceiving the world do you think that those

01:25:18.320 people deserve bodily autonomy no based on the example i just gave you just because people have 1.00

01:25:23.480 the capacity to unalive themselves no one deserves bodily autonomy by the definition that you just gave

01:25:29.400 we could not give them bodily autonomy definitionally by that definition because definitely by that 0.57

01:25:34.800 definition definitionally by that definition yes so i could say definitionally by some other definition

01:25:40.360 but i'm giving you the referent to your definition we don't deserve bodily autonomy not by your

01:25:44.980 definition if because that would prevent us from preventing people from like doing suicide and things

01:25:49.580 like this so we don't deserve bodily autonomy because under my definition of bodily autonomy we cannot

01:25:54.960 prevent someone from killing them correct but that's not a violent act like why that's a real violent

01:26:01.980 act why i can't under my definition you can't prevent someone from killing themselves because it it would

01:26:07.640 no it would violate your rule for what bodily autonomy is i said so long as you are not a threat to yourself

01:26:12.640 or others so that includes you so you would relinquish your bodily autonomy if you were a threat to yourself

01:26:18.280 then i think that it would then just be trivially true that you don't really mean bodily autonomy anymore

01:26:23.320 because what you do is you say bodily autonomy with all of these exceptions where we can violate bodily autonomy

01:26:28.680 but that's like three exceptions it's exceptions that it's not like three exceptions it's many exceptions what about

01:26:34.560 somebody who's just like cutting themselves with a razor blade can we stop them what about a person who

01:26:39.060 just says that they want to cut off the right arm because they think it'll be fun can we stop them

01:26:43.260 like there's so many examples i can give you of where we would violate people's bodily autonomy what

01:26:48.180 about a person who's having like a manic episode and doesn't want to go to the hospital can we violate

01:26:52.480 their bodily autonomy they're a threat to themselves or others so again that would fall in there what if

01:26:56.080 they're not a threat what if they're just having like a manic episode they don't want to leave their

01:26:59.560 house you just perceive it that way happens all the time exactly so you we violate that whatever

01:27:04.300 you consider what you're by your definition bodily autonomy when you say do people deserve that

01:27:08.360 and i say absolutely not by that definition because i can point to 300 different reasons why

01:27:14.600 we would need to violate it so is there any definition of bodily autonomy that you think that

01:27:18.680 not that i'm aware of i'm not aware of a definition of bodily autonomy i would agree to that i wouldn't

01:27:23.500 think we should be able to violate so you don't think that people should have the ability to control

01:27:28.460 themselves and their bodies under any circumstance because i didn't say under any circumstance so

01:27:34.060 what's the circumstance in which people should have the right to control their body yeah so

01:27:37.500 well for me i would say that if it's in some type of case of will um that you could do that but i mean

01:27:45.640 ultimately i think free will yeah no in case of will so i'm not sure that i believe in some

01:27:51.540 universalized right for bodily autonomy and you haven't really given me any definitional reason why

01:27:58.200 should but i don't understand why you don't believe in bodily autonomy why because my understanding of

01:28:04.220 what bodily autonomy is is that you basically have the right to do whatever you want absent the

01:28:08.880 infringement of somebody else's bodily autonomy yes why don't you think because i think that i need to

01:28:14.540 many times infringe on people's bodily autonomy for their good or societies why are you constantly

01:28:19.160 infringing on other people's bodily autonomy what are you what do you mean what do you just said i feel

01:28:24.100 the need yeah well i would use force doctrine for that meaning voting things like that to violate

01:28:28.980 when are you forcing when i go vote i'm forcing my will when i go vote on other people through

01:28:38.440 force doctrine no you're not because they all have a vote great can i vote it not according to you but

01:28:42.860 i can i can vote and you can vote right yes okay you want abortions to be legal yes if i vote against

01:28:49.120 that am i voting against your bodily autonomy yes thank you okay can we move on now no we can't move

01:28:54.860 on now no we can't move on okay well andrew you still haven't explained why humans don't deserve

01:28:59.740 bodily autonomy like what i just explained it to you so then who could should control people

01:29:04.200 well in this case we would use we would use groupings of laws under and from my view would

01:29:09.860 be like christian ethics from your view it would be like i don't know shared bizarre intuitions or

01:29:14.860 whatever where you think that i don't know well i don't know where it is that you would i believe

01:29:19.680 do you believe in god yeah i'm on the fence then it's just intuition so everything that you believe

01:29:25.220 probably just intuition you believe well i mean there's also facts and like physical evidence but

01:29:29.880 you know um so you believe facts and physical evidence require an interpreter right like eyes and

01:29:36.420 ears they require they require you to interpret them so you're saying that facts are different for

01:29:42.820 everyone regardless of how they enter well they require an interpreter and the interpreter can

01:29:46.380 interpret them however they choose and then can make moral prescriptions based on those but when

01:29:50.660 we get to the moral prescriptions facts don't change based on your but your moral prescriptions based on

01:29:56.000 the facts do that's why they're yeah they require interpreters so i'm not really willing to kind of

01:30:02.120 seed the ground but you are your own personal interpreter now yeah i interpret things correct yes okay and so

01:30:08.060 do i that's yeah i know but i just don't we all see facts and then we make our own judgments about

01:30:13.360 those facts right but i have an epistemic foundation that i appeal to for foundational morals you don't

01:30:19.180 so you think that everyone should have to subscribe to the christian god and that is who decides who has

01:30:23.080 free will i think that christian ethics if we inform law are way it's a way better system than any form

01:30:28.080 of law we have currently yes but why does that relinquish people's free will i'm confused as to what

01:30:32.840 we're not even we weren't talking about free will okay so then what we're talking about bodily autonomy now

01:30:37.040 okay so then based on based on your definition of bodily autonomy the one that you gave me we would

01:30:42.900 definitely need to violate it and you even agree to that so what just for abortion or what no for

01:30:50.880 the purpose of like suicide cutting yourself with razor blades all sorts of various things that you

01:30:55.800 could do to yourself for self-harm that we would step in and violate your bodily autonomy over okay so

01:31:02.120 outside of those specific examples in which someone is committing an act of harm

01:31:06.960 which i also removed from my definition of bodily autonomy then i don't consider that bodily

01:31:10.880 autonomy anymore by your definition your definition would have to be something different than your

01:31:14.920 definition the right to go to the fucking grocery store who has that right who are you saying under 0.99

01:31:18.960 your standpoint of government what is it based on your equal force objection can women do yeah that 1.00

01:31:26.100 they should not be allowed so let's untangle some ideas when you say who has a right to go to a

01:31:29.980 grocery store who has an inherent right to go to a grocery store or who has a physical right

01:31:36.320 enforced by men to go to a grocery store which thing are you asking what do you an inherent right

01:31:42.600 or some external subjective right that is enforced which thing are you asking i'm saying who has an

01:31:48.560 inherent right nobody their body nobody nobody has an inherent right to do anything nobody nobody has

01:31:54.200 an inherent right to do anything so then how do we gain the physical right to go to the grocery

01:31:58.580 through force exclusively through force yeah the only reason that like so if like let's say the

01:32:03.980 taliban took over like the grocery store area do you have the right to go to the grocery store now

01:32:09.220 no but that's an then what then you're agreeing with me so then you're saying there's no inherent

01:32:14.140 right it sounds like you're advocating for anarchy and the only way that i'm not advocating for anarchy

01:32:18.640 the only way that people gain a right is through force then we'd all be fighting each other all the

01:32:22.560 time to gain the right to just no we don't you can cooperate for the purpose of force doctrine we do it

01:32:27.820 constantly what do you mean no we don't because we don't live under a force doctrine principle yes we

01:32:32.580 do well how would old people have the power to do anything how would disabled people have the power 1.00

01:32:36.360 because they have no one can defend themselves because they have people who have force which

01:32:40.300 enable them to do those things that's how so then there is power that comes not from force if people

01:32:46.600 who do not have the power to force can utilize the strength of others on their behalf the strength of

01:32:53.020 others would be force okay but how did that person at the top doesn't have force utilize the strength

01:32:58.660 of others he's utilizing other people's force okay but what is he doing to utilize their force because

01:33:04.780 he somehow has power over them how he doesn't have well it's agreed to power but the thing about power

01:33:09.980 dynamics which is interesting is that if you have control over force if that were to shift like let's 0.98

01:33:15.360 say the president said some shit that you really didn't like and a big-ass mob showed up to take him out 0.91

01:33:20.860 right and nobody opposed that who has force doctrine on their side that's fair so i want to go back to 0.99

01:33:26.260 this claim you said hang on hang on before we go back to my claim hang on hang on i want to on

01:33:31.220 force wait wait wait and i would like to just ask hang on you said that's fair though right you said

01:33:36.420 that's fair no i'm you said that's fair i'm responding to the words you're saying if you said agreed to

01:33:41.540 power based on force yeah and that those who are disabled are protected and their will is protected

01:33:48.520 and those who are elderly are protected and their will is if there's force yeah then why can't you

01:33:52.900 do the same thing with women why do women now usurp their right to protection and bodily autonomy 1.00

01:33:57.940 under there's not rights these aren't rights this is force can like can women like manipulate men to 1.00

01:34:04.120 use force on their behalf sure that's happened before okay great but they're always going to have

01:34:08.900 to appeal to men's strength for force no matter what but i don't think society is intrinsically and

01:34:13.720 implicitly governed by force and i think advocating for that which part of society which part of society

01:34:19.780 is not governed by force which part um i mean schools aren't governed by yes they're governed

01:34:25.580 by force for sure really so kids go to school because they're afraid they're going to get no

01:34:30.220 they're not going to school because they're afraid they're going to get hurt but there's security

01:34:33.140 guards who are around there's police officers are around there's people who enable that nothing's bad

01:34:37.040 is going to happen to those kids there's teachers who are there much stronger than the students to

01:34:40.580 keep potential threats away from the students all of it's governed by force okay but you're talking

01:34:44.360 about force for protection versus force for the utilization and monopoly of it's all the same

01:34:49.880 thing it's not the same same if you're protecting people's right to be somewhere then that is a

01:34:54.940 different use of force then but they're both force sure okay great then they're the same thing force

01:35:00.940 sure but why are you just because you have a monopoly on force what gives you the will

01:35:07.280 to usurp someone's right to very basic bodily they don't have rights rights are not by your 0.98

01:35:16.000 agreement inherent so then what's to stop a bigger stronger man from just beating the shit out of

01:35:20.840 you and now you don't have nothing except force doctrine that's the whole point then why would 0.71

01:35:25.360 you want to live in a society in which everyone is like i didn't say you have to live in a society

01:35:30.340 in which individuals can get beaten up by somebody who's next to them that's what force doctrine is no

01:35:35.400 force doctrine would be like the cops would show up and beat that guy down with billy clubs drag his 0.98

01:35:41.240 ass to prison then he would get thrown in a prison where guards would make sure he stayed there okay 0.98

01:35:45.920 that's all force is appropriate through force doctrine well i don't even know what that means

01:35:51.000 what are you asking so the force and the power to i mean you're basically saying that women do not 0.99

01:35:58.600 have the right to i don't know because you won't define what rights are to do really anything okay

01:36:05.000 i'll tell you again what did i say a right is a duty i'm sorry a privilege absent a duty and you

01:36:12.200 agreed to it four times i'm gonna have no privilege stop stop i just want to point out your lie you

01:36:17.160 said i so frustrated you said i keep lying or you keep lying so when did i lie bookie you just said i

01:36:23.720 never defined privilege no i didn't yes you literally just said that and i defined it four

01:36:29.580 times you didn't say you didn't define privilege you didn't define privilege you defined it right

01:36:33.500 oh my god a privilege absent duty is what a privilege absent of a duty

01:36:41.920 i'd say like free will all right it's all right i defined it multiple times so what are you trying

01:36:48.300 to say that because women cannot defend physically their right to do things that they do not deserve 0.97

01:36:56.020 rights is that the point they can't enforce their own rights okay so because someone cannot

01:37:01.040 enforce their own rights they don't deserve rights well they don't have them but do they deserve them

01:37:07.300 well you're at again then you're moving into a different claim so if you want to get into like what

01:37:13.880 people deserve or don't deserve right uh we can get into that but can we at least agree on the

01:37:20.460 descriptor of how it works first no okay because women i'm trying to understand why women don't 1.00

01:37:28.420 deserve rights because they cannot that's a different claim i just asked you if we could

01:37:32.420 agree to the descriptor before we moved to that claim and you said no and then brought that claim

01:37:36.360 up again because the claim doesn't make sense i don't understand your claim okay make the claim and

01:37:40.220 i'm literally answering all of your questions for this claim not well though like what are you

01:37:45.180 which question which thing am i not answering if women do not have a monopoly on force cannot 1.00

01:37:50.520 control their own bodies why don't they deserve basic human rights basic equal rights okay let's try 0.99

01:37:58.640 this again it's like talking to a fucking child okay do you have do you agree with me no okay 0.99

01:38:05.180 do you agree i've never seen you this pissed off this is fucking hilarious oh i'm not pissed off 0.99

01:38:11.700 i'm just yes you are i think women are emotional look at him you're the one freaking out not me i'm 0.90

01:38:17.060 not freaking out i think this is hilarious for me it's extremely frustrating talking to someone

01:38:20.740 doesn't actually understand the words that are coming out of my mouth it's sounding very emotional

01:38:24.960 right now andrew can we go back i'd like to get some water yeah can we go back and go through

01:38:29.080 if you need to cry that's okay can we go back i'm here for you my friend can we go back

01:38:32.520 through these descriptors now sure okay all righty what is a right you just want to keep

01:38:36.980 defining words what is a right and webster over here what is a right from your perspective

01:38:41.360 okay i mean i'm fine with your definition on those descriptors no but i want your definition

01:38:46.280 i'm fine with your definition then why do you keep contradicting yourself if you're fine with my

01:38:50.020 definition i'm not contradicting myself your claim just doesn't make sense that humans do not

01:38:53.720 deserve rights specifically because they cannot physically when did i say they didn't deserve them

01:38:56.960 you just did like i said they don't exist inherently right okay so whether or not it

01:39:03.480 doesn't exist inherently does someone still deserve that right just because they cannot physically

01:39:09.240 defend them how do you deserve something that doesn't exist but it does exist okay so now it exists

01:39:15.400 does it exist or not exist i mean do i have bodily autonomy currently yes can i go walk around my

01:39:21.340 house and do what i want yes so on a certain level it does exist where i mean right here right now i'm 0.89

01:39:28.000 here on my own free will because you can do this you knew the fuck off so because you can do this you 0.88

01:39:32.040 have the right to do this i'm trying to see what extent you think women should not be allowed to do

01:39:36.780 things because they cannot monopolize and control yeah but others based on you understand that like

01:39:42.440 i just don't understand practically what you want out of this when you women can't 1.00

01:39:47.180 force men it's hard to it's hard to argue with you because you don't have any understanding of

01:39:51.360 philosophy at all so when i bring these things up that's not the issue the issue is that your

01:39:55.120 philosophy is inherently flawed it's on a it morally doesn't make sense okay i'll tell you what

01:39:59.160 negate it negate the proposition okay sure um with what i said before so you're basically saying

01:40:08.320 that people who utilize force to execute laws are those who have the ability to control those laws

01:40:13.220 my issue is that and in terms of a movement towards equity or a goal of eliminating and in

01:40:19.520 terms of feminism you're saying it's a movement towards equity with the goal of eliminating 1.00

01:40:23.140 patriarchal systems my issue is that i fundamentally do not believe that laws should be exclusively

01:40:31.300 enforced to the benefit of those who have physical power okay that's not a negation of force

01:40:38.940 doctrine so like i don't know what to you're you're so philosophically illiterate that you 0.83

01:40:45.580 actually don't even understand what i'm saying to you and you're just regularly illiterate i mean 0.50

01:40:49.200 dude like then just argue the claim i did argue the claim but it doesn't make sense then falsify it

01:40:54.520 okay just because someone can do something does not mean that they ought to do it okay just because

01:40:59.960 men can force women to do what they want doesn't mean that they ought so then descriptively do you 0.67

01:41:05.760 agree with force doctrine i mean i believe on a like blanket i believe on like a smaller level i

01:41:13.080 think that interpersonally someone can um use force if they have more force over okay let's try this

01:41:20.720 what is force doctrine force doctrine is your whole thing that men have a monopoly on force

01:41:26.500 and human beings have no inherent rights all laws are enforced by force and violence is used to maintain

01:41:33.700 um societal regularity on a certain level and that women have to appeal to men for 1.00

01:41:40.700 the their monopoly on force in order to secure their whatever needs or rights or whatever it is

01:41:46.200 they want right that's part of force doctrine sure okay do you agree then do you agree with the

01:41:55.020 description do you agree the description is true i already said i agreed with the description

01:41:58.840 i asked you four times if you agreed with the description and i said i agreed with it four

01:42:04.100 times well one time i said no to piss you off but then the other times i said yes so you agreed with 0.58

01:42:08.120 me that when it comes to force doctrine you agree to the descriptor being true sure okay now we can

01:42:15.280 get somewhere maybe that's what i said oh my god i mean you never did but okay i did andrew so now

01:42:21.300 that we can get uh past that now that you've agreed to force doctrine can you tell me why men should

01:42:27.260 enforce women's rights why men should enforce women's rights i don't necessarily think that i will i think

01:42:35.780 that free will is honestly a privilege i mean not a privilege i think that free will is a right i think

01:42:40.260 that everyone has the right to bottle their tongue then you don't agree to force doctrine why'd you lie to

01:42:44.120 me why did you lie to me you asked me if i agreed with your definition i agree with your definition

01:42:49.360 of it i don't morally agree with it that's what we don't agree with the descriptor then we again we

01:42:54.680 have to argue the descriptor until you either falsify the descriptor or or agree with the descriptor

01:43:01.360 it can't be either or it has to be either or it can't be can't be anything else it's either true or

01:43:05.980 it's false i just want to understand your moral justification for controlling someone else's body

01:43:09.960 i'm talking on a moral basis not that you can't physically i understand that you can physically

01:43:14.780 i agree with the premise that's nice but i asked you why but i asked you a question and he didn't

01:43:22.360 answer it why should men enforce women's rights why should they because it is morally unacceptable to 0.96

01:43:31.760 control others it is morally impermissible that's the opposite you're not controlling if you're enforcing

01:43:36.560 their rights it sounds like they're controlling you right like how are you controlling them by

01:43:42.640 enforcing their rights but right is simply as we've defined it yeah a privilege without it so why

01:43:49.120 should men enforce women's privileges but they don't have to so what are you defining answer my 0.99

01:43:53.800 question why should men enforce women's privileges they don't have to enforce women's privilege great i

01:43:59.460 think i think i great i believe the exact same thing perfect i'm gonna go out of smoke you don't have

01:44:04.840 to enforce oh my goodness he's he's he's he's coming back he's just gonna do a little smoke 0.99

01:44:10.020 are you kidding you just agreed with my entire position oh shit the misogynist i agree with you 0.99

01:44:17.800 that men should not enforce women well you didn't let me finish the sentence i don't really need to 0.99

01:44:22.020 you conceded the debate no i did not concede the debate andrew you're just walking away because

01:44:26.600 you're mad i'm he's just taking a brief i'll take a break oh can you we'll have you stay at the table

01:44:37.060 oh i want to smoke though that's not fair why does he get to smoke you want to smoke with oh no oh is

01:44:42.560 he gonna come back yeah so usually we'll just have one person take a break at a time yeah sure while we

01:44:47.660 do that i'll allow a couple chats to come through give me just a moment i don't want to talk to the

01:44:51.680 chat fuck those guys give me one moment here all right so guys if you're enjoying the stream 200 0.90

01:44:59.360 tts if you want to get a message in okay i mean question or something for can i just finish the 0.99

01:45:04.520 basic point that i was going to make now that he's not here to well you you may want i'm totally fine

01:45:08.680 having you finish the point but i think we should wait until andrew's back so he can hear it and

01:45:13.680 respond well i'm gonna go smoke after he comes back so then do it once you're both back at the table

01:45:20.460 so just hang tight he's gonna do a quick smoke then you can take a brief break i've never you

01:45:25.260 smoke you smoke cigarettes or you you vape no cigarettes oh okay gotcha okay uh i've never

01:45:31.180 seen him so upset this is hilarious i thought women were supposed to be more emotional well i'll let him 1.00

01:45:35.720 respond to that when he's back at the table guys if you want to get a message in streamlabs.com

01:45:40.020 slash whatever 200 tts we have 18 000 people 18 000 concurrent viewers at the moment that's just on

01:45:48.820 youtube and i think we have over a thousand over there on twitch speaking of twitch go to twitch.tv

01:45:55.600 slash whatever drop us a follow and a prime sub if you have one if you have amazon prime you can link

01:46:01.040 it to your twitch it's a quick free easy way to support the show every single month also guys if

01:46:05.760 you're enjoying the stream and you want to see more debates like the video also i just figured i'd do

01:46:11.040 this announcement now if there's anybody watching and if you're a content creator and you're

01:46:16.820 interested in doing a debate uh you're welcome to dm us and we'd be happy to host the debate the

01:46:23.060 podcast is looking to host more debates so feel free to dm us there also you can support the show

01:46:31.580 via venmo and cash app whatever pod on both uh venmo cash app they don't take any platform fees so

01:46:40.540 with streamlabs it's three to four percent youtube takes 30 percent and then on top of that if you're

01:46:46.180 using the uh the youtube app on a apple device iphone ipad whatever they take 30 percent too so if you were

01:46:54.640 to send in a 200 super chat they take half of that apple and youtube collectively take over half

01:47:02.760 of a 200 super chat so be sure to do it through either streamlabs or venmo cash app also we have a

01:47:09.920 discord discord.gg slash whatever we post behind the scenes our stream schedule on there and also

01:47:16.400 shop.whatever.com if you'd like to get some merchandise some people were reporting that there

01:47:20.960 were apparently maybe they're just trolling some video and audio issues all you have to do if that

01:47:25.500 occurs just refresh reload the stream and we'll get right back uh to it so andrew's rejoining here

01:47:34.080 did you want to take a little quick smoke break i should have actually just had you guys do it at the

01:47:38.000 same time but that's what i said brian i yeah you know that's my bad that's my bad uh so we will

01:47:44.920 continue the uh we'll continue the show uh just right out there yeah uh we will continue the stream

01:47:53.200 in just a moment as soon as she returns reminder guys 200 tts that's streamlabs.com slash whatever uh

01:48:02.160 oh we have a couple chats coming through i'll get to those as soon as she is back andrew tell the

01:48:09.080 audience to uh like the video like the video that's it it's like talking to a it's like it's

01:48:15.800 like talking to a toddler that's it yeah uh do you have a light that she could use

01:48:21.640 light oh shit sorry light do we have a lifer uh yeah you can use my lighter 0.99

01:48:31.000 uh all right fine i'll give you the damn lighter i'm joking with you calm down here 0.99

01:48:58.720 uh all right guys uh give us just a moment while revenge is mine so sayeth the lord 0.85

01:49:09.560 uh give us a moment here while we're just uh taking a brief intermission to uh

01:49:16.160 allow our debaters to take smoke breaks you guys should quit you know you ever

01:49:23.960 you should just let us smoke in the studio bro get a studio i will get evicted get us get a

01:49:30.540 studio where we can smoke it's not a bad idea though i mean i would have no problem with it but

01:49:35.300 okay i must abide by the landlord's rules okay so guys if you're enjoying the stream just uh

01:49:41.060 hang tight stay tuned she's gonna take a quick smoke break and we will be right back and let me see 0.97

01:49:48.920 if there's anything uh we can get pulled up or any announcements speaking of which guys if you're

01:49:53.420 enjoying the stream we are planning to do uh andrew's final show tomorrow i'm not going to be

01:49:59.540 there for that no no i gotta go back up one day early i didn't get a chance to talk to you when i got

01:50:04.740 here okay you know all right so the dgen panel i think yeah we'll have to talk about okay we'll talk

01:50:10.100 about it after the show uh let's see here we have tinkerton thank you for the gifted five subs

01:50:15.480 really appreciate it uh i'm gonna read this one from et whenever andrew gets her on a point she

01:50:21.460 immediately tries to say he's mad because she's not smart enough to understand or she makes up

01:50:26.440 something he never said you and your asvab waiver boyfriend to serve each other uh thank you for that

01:50:32.400 message guys if you our read threshold is uh a bit higher but i'm just going to read a few if we

01:50:38.180 have time once we got to the concession though that men shouldn't enforce women's privilege

01:50:42.840 there we go we got our ought claim that was it done so great she agrees with me that's the end of that

01:50:50.040 done you know thank laura for the five dollars on cash app rachel thank for the 20 on venmo

01:50:58.080 brian thank for the 50 on uh venmo and justin thank for the 10 on cash app thank you guys

01:51:04.980 venmo cash app whatever pod if you want 100 of your contribution to go towards the show uh

01:51:11.600 since we have some high viewership i'd like to remind you guys our stream schedule we do our dating talk

01:51:18.380 episodes sundays 5 p.m pacific and in addition to that um also subscribe to the crucible do it

01:51:26.560 immediately hurry up faster hurry up you're not over there subscribing quick enough or sending in the

01:51:33.660 super chats we need all the super where's all the super chats i was told there's like 18 000 live

01:51:39.040 watching yeah there's uh you know the viewership's uh declining here just because we're taking a brief

01:51:44.440 intermission but there's currently yeah there's just under 18 000 concurrent viewers you know what

01:51:49.800 while i need to make an appeal to the viewers and audience here really quick i've been having a lot

01:51:54.720 of issues with my x account lately if anybody has a connection uh over there at twitter at x i've been

01:52:00.820 trying to get it fixed it's been going on like seven weeks now uh an issue with my x account uh i've

01:52:06.580 tried to reach out to support no responses so um if somebody has you're gonna in order for this to be

01:52:12.600 fixed i'm gonna need to get in touch with somebody who has a connection or even works there at x at

01:52:18.460 twitter who can uh help me out so you can dm me at whatever on instagram you can email me brian

01:52:24.020 at whatever.com b-r-i-a-n at whatever.com if you're able to assist we got some super chats here

01:52:29.800 that we'll read uh she had to appeal to andrew's force possession just to light her sig there it is

01:52:36.200 uh cool thank you brian s fucking patriarchy's hoarding all the resources thank you guys guys if 0.53

01:52:42.980 you're enjoying the stream like the video there's uh 17 000 people watching guys just hit the like video 0.95

01:52:50.420 really quick if you want to see more debates uh we're trying to do more of these so if you like

01:52:54.700 this you want to see more of them hit the like video or hit the like button excuse me and uh like

01:53:01.720 i said if anybody's watching and you'd like to do a debate hopefully you know we we're going to want

01:53:07.720 to select from people who've done at least some debates or do content creation so we can uh vet you

01:53:13.400 a little bit but we are looking to host more debates so if you're interested in that she doesn't steal

01:53:17.880 later and specifically we're looking for debate opponents for andrew wilson here if you're uh if

01:53:24.200 you're a feminist if you're liberal if you're a democrat uh if you do if you disagree with andrew

01:53:29.420 wilson here on something we'd love to schedule more if you're interested in debating andrew feel

01:53:34.000 free to uh and you're and you you know you disagree with him you're a feminist liberal or whatever 1.00

01:53:40.860 send me a dm on instagram at whatever and we can try to arrange for that especially feminists 1.00

01:53:47.000 like some of their actual champions because they have way better champions than this can you check

01:53:51.720 on her please um we have chef i have a connection at x just kidding man sorry lol andrew make sure

01:54:00.460 she doesn't steal your lighter i'll get the lighter back thank you thank you for that i do appreciate

01:54:06.040 it here mary pull up oh wait we can't do that we can't pull up discord never mind um one of our

01:54:11.360 monitors bugged out right before the show of course guys if you're like if you're enjoying the stream

01:54:16.460 twitch.tv slash whatever drop us a follow and a prime sub if you have one it's a quick free easy

01:54:21.740 way to support the show uh and also i think it's been a couple minutes since we last got a prime sub

01:54:27.700 so check if you have a prime sub available if you have amazon prime you just link it up super quick

01:54:32.360 and easy way to support the show uh all right

01:54:37.640 let me see here uh andrew are there any uh i think we should try to get back to

01:54:47.720 uh kind of the main topic well we've been discussing it but are there any other topics you'd like to hit

01:54:53.500 on yeah i'd like to move into feminism now okay i stood up to her internal critique and now it's time

01:54:58.300 for her to stand up to mine okay got it so we'll do uh feminism so forced doctrine she did an internal 1.00

01:55:05.960 critique she agreed with forced doctrine ultimately so now i'd like here we go all right thank you for

01:55:12.980 the light that was very harsh i did not mean the table is very slick um oh wait i'm gonna refill my

01:55:19.360 water mary can you do it for her oh actually no no she has one there never mind

01:55:23.600 i'll do it i'll do it force doctrine there it is see right there

01:55:30.520 thank you sir force force doctrine applies to pickle jars as well

01:55:36.140 my cat's name is we'll do a pickle jar pop if somebody sends in

01:55:41.980 are we opening pickle although i am is i am an exceptionally physically weak woman i don't know

01:55:49.460 you you look pretty do you lift or you're funny i'm 98 pounds um we'll do a pickle jar challenge

01:55:57.300 uh if somebody sends in a thousand dollar tts we'll we'll order a pickle jar to the studio and we'll

01:56:03.120 okay we'll we'll see i gotta get a pump going though i'm gonna let a couple messages come through here

01:56:09.460 really quick okay we have uh say wizard he says what can women joking oh no okay women do without 0.98

01:56:19.360 men enforcing their rights if men collectively remove any right from women who can put them back

01:56:24.340 remember no men on your side ps force doctrine is a man and men okay okay a couple more chats here

01:56:32.920 really quick then we'll get right back to it uh someone looks like they bought a hoodie and a t-shirt

01:56:38.480 on our merch shop shop.whatever.com if you want to get yourself some merchandise we have pasty george

01:56:43.740 here oh jesus pasty george donated they might roast you a little bit just warning yeah this

01:56:49.400 weird looking female with shine locks on her head is a troll and argues in bad faith i understand 1.00

01:56:55.860 andrew's frustration because he is debating with a mentally handicapped person i actually would love

01:57:01.240 to respond to that um so if i'm being completely honest with you andrew i've been watching a few of

01:57:07.940 your debates and i've noticed that you like to troll women specifically there was a video in which you

01:57:13.620 made fun of disabled person a person you made fun of their deaf accent um you do that consistently 0.99

01:57:19.760 you've called women whores you've called no i don't call them whores i literally just watched a video 1.00

01:57:24.960 you didn't watch a video of me you called her a satanic prostitute whore like you just did it if she 1.00

01:57:29.800 was a prostitute and a satanist yes well she wasn't a satanist she was a sex worker but no she was she 1.00

01:57:35.060 was a satanist am i answering the question or are you answering yeah but you're yeah i'm not gonna 0.99

01:57:38.520 let you lie like i'm not gonna let you lie she was a i think the question if a person is a satanist 0.99

01:57:42.840 and a prostitute are they a satanic whore but she didn't call her can you answer my question 0.99

01:57:46.940 she didn't she didn't identify but she did she did though she's just if you're a satanist and a 1.00

01:57:52.500 prostitute then you're a satanic whore you see how that works i don't work do you do you here's what 1.00

01:57:57.580 i'm trying to you're so emotional calm down answer the question answer the question are you trying to 1.00

01:58:03.760 upset me answer the question it's not working baby i don't know it looks like it looks like it's

01:58:07.900 working it's really not it looks like it is it's really not yeah so is a woman who is a satanist 0.98

01:58:12.780 and a prostitute a satanic whore yes okay thank you thank you okay so then i was right and it's funny 0.99

01:58:18.500 because you just said you don't call women whores and then you just called her a whore but no i just i 0.99

01:58:22.340 make descriptive statements on what is a whore i don't think i make a descriptive statement 0.98

01:58:26.320 a ridiculous amount of money to ask me a question and i would like to answer i can't wait to hear it

01:58:31.580 okay to be honest with you andrew i think you debate in bad faith the whole concept of i'm trying

01:58:37.360 to dominate my opponent is not necessarily the way to debate if you're trying to reach a common ground

01:58:42.820 and create a mutual consensus that is a bad faith debate i literally just allowed my entire worldview to

01:58:50.300 be up for internal critique i didn't even push back once and you still came to my

01:58:56.180 conclusion without me pushing back at all i'm not that is the epitome of good faith we haven't

01:59:02.140 gotten your conclusion andrew we did you agreed that men have no obligation to enforce male privilege

01:59:07.580 after saying you descriptively agree with force doctrine that's it done okay but men also have

01:59:12.380 no obligation to enforce their own rights great so like how do you create a society in which all rights

01:59:20.340 and all privileges are based specifically on force to me that sounds like you'd already descriptively

01:59:26.900 agreed and conceded that point but i'd like to move into feminism whenever you're ready i can see that 1.00

01:59:31.500 point i mean you did but we haven't we have other topics to move into specifically your feminist view 0.86

01:59:36.820 and since i stayed up to internal critique it is now your turn for your view okie dokie i fundamentally i

01:59:43.980 mean i just don't think it's morally correct to say you do not deserve rights unless you great what do you

01:59:48.200 base your morality on i base my morality on like basic concepts of ethics kantian morality

01:59:53.880 russo's philosophy of ethics i think that so kantian ethics you're a universalist ethicist you're a

02:00:00.020 deontologist no i wouldn't say honestly i feel like neither consequentialism nor deontological ethics

02:00:05.740 like fully so you're a threshold deontologist i don't know i think there's merit to both arguments

02:00:10.660 okay so what do you base your morality on i think i base my morality on physically how you are

02:00:16.740 impacting other people if you are that would be consequences sure but intent does play kind of a

02:00:23.500 part in that would be consequences as well so if i have the intent to do good things and bad things

02:00:27.560 happen to you say i shouldn't be doing those good things to you right no i that's why i'm saying i

02:00:31.860 think that there's a gray area between consequentialism and so threshold deontology

02:00:35.920 so okay great so you're a threshold deontologist can you tell me what you base that on other than your own

02:00:41.400 personal perspective do you not believe that it's not my turn to answer questions your turn for the

02:00:46.960 internal critique i just well i believe it's immoral to hurt other people it is inherently wrong to hurt

02:00:51.960 others and what makes it inherently wrong well hurting other people is not you think that's good

02:00:57.720 that's just you making the claim and then make your it's called question begging it's a question

02:01:01.680 begging fallacy when you're a question when i say do you even know what question begging means what

02:01:06.220 does it mean oh my god what does it mean you're trying to catch me in a what does it mean i'm

02:01:11.580 answering you're trying to catch me in a logical fallacy that's not answering what does it mean

02:01:16.340 question begging you're trying to catch what does it mean it doesn't mean you're trying to

02:01:23.400 catch your opponent that's not what question begging means will you will you let me finish yeah

02:01:27.840 okay what's it mean you're trying to catch your opponent in a logical fallacy by asking them

02:01:32.160 questions that inherently create a dissonance. What the fuck are you talking about? That is not 0.99

02:01:40.100 what the question begging fallacy is. So then how do you define it? It's not a definitional thing.

02:01:44.940 It's a fallacious thing. When I ask you, is this inherent? You say, listen, it's inherent because

02:01:50.420 it's inherent. It's inherent because it's inherent. That's not what I said. Great. What makes it

02:01:54.640 inherent? What makes your morals inherent? What makes not hurting somebody else being bad inherent?

02:01:59.660 You don't think that hurting other people is bad. That's asking me a question, not answering it.

02:02:04.600 What makes hurting other people bad inherent? Inherently, you are denying them the right to

02:02:09.520 their bodily autonomy. Yeah, but what makes that bad? It's bad because it's hurting them. Hurting

02:02:13.820 someone is physically bad. Yeah, but what makes that bad? You don't think that hurting somebody

02:02:17.360 is bad? That's asking me a question, not answering it. It's bad because it's immoral. It's bad because

02:02:23.440 it's bad. Now you have done a circular fallacious argument. Sure. What is bad? This thing over here

02:02:29.360 that's bad. What makes it bad? The fact that it's bad. Why is it bad? Because it's bad? Is that why

02:02:34.100 it's bad? Is it bad because it's bad because it's bad? It is inherently wrong to hurt other people.

02:02:40.360 Yeah. What makes it inherently wrong to hurt other people? It is inherently wrong to hurt other people

02:02:44.600 because you are denying them their free will. You are causing them physical pain and you are

02:02:48.900 participating and exacerbating in suffrage and suffering. Yeah. What makes that bad though?

02:02:54.020 You don't think that causing other people to suffer is bad. That's asking me a question.

02:02:57.780 Asking me what makes it bad doesn't describe for me what makes it bad. Hurting someone is bad.

02:03:03.100 Because? Because you are denying them their right to free will. Yeah, but what makes that part bad?

02:03:07.580 And perpetuating suffering. Yeah, but what makes that part bad? You don't think that suffering is bad.

02:03:12.760 No, that has nothing to do with what I think. It does have anything to do with what you think. Here's how this

02:03:17.520 conversation is going, just so you know. I'm like, is eating candy bars bad? And you're like, it's bad.

02:03:21.900 I say, what makes eating candy bars bad? And you say, well, because it's unhealthy for you.

02:03:25.680 And I say, but why is being unhealthy bad? And you say, because eating candy bars is bad.

02:03:29.380 You are causing physical harm. You are disrupting society.

02:03:33.080 So eating a donut is immoral? I'm not talking about candy bars anymore.

02:03:36.060 I'm talking about your initial statement. Is eating a donut immoral? Is eating a donut immoral?

02:03:39.720 No, because you're not causing a physical harm to anyone else. You're causing physical harm?

02:03:42.920 To someone else. It is an exercise of your free will. So is making donuts immoral?

02:03:46.540 No. But even if people are going to eat them and it causes them harm?

02:03:49.880 But eating one donut is not going to cause someone physical harm.

02:03:53.180 If you eat a donut in excess, then that causes someone physical harm.

02:03:56.400 But that is not something that you are policing. If you make donuts and then force someone to buy

02:04:00.600 and eat 10 donuts in front of you, then that would be causing a physical harm. 0.93

02:04:03.340 When you say the word inherently, what you mean is something which is like based inside the human

02:04:09.660 experience? What do you mean by inherently? I mean, on an instinctual level, does it not hurt someone

02:04:15.080 to cause harm? Although, of course, there are people who are sociopaths and don't feel that.

02:04:16.920 I'm just asking, what do you mean by inherently?

02:04:19.880 I mean, inherently as in on a very basic, it is a fact. Inherent fact.

02:04:25.660 Inherently, it means it's a fact.

02:04:27.600 I'm just saying inherently as in it is implicit throughout every culture. Well, not every culture,

02:04:34.940 but like it's implicit.

02:04:36.320 Okay, inherently means implicit. So it means always, like always something. It's inherent.

02:04:42.580 It's like always this thing. Is that what that means?

02:04:45.960 I'm getting confused. What the fuck are you talking about? 0.99

02:04:47.260 I'm asking you what inherently means. 0.99

02:04:49.220 Why don't we just Google it? I'm not married.

02:04:50.920 I'm actually okay with you. If you want to Google the definition of inherent.

02:04:53.960 Yeah, can we Google it?

02:04:54.220 Yeah, Brian can pull it up. I'm not trying to get a got you on the definition. I just want the definition.

02:04:59.660 Okay, yeah, then let's pull it up.

02:05:00.740 Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

02:05:04.860 Like always.

02:05:05.640 That's what I said. I said always.

02:05:07.640 So I just want to make sure. Hang on. Existing. Read the rest of it.

02:05:11.320 There's a few others. Do you want to see?

02:05:12.680 Just the first one's fine.

02:05:13.640 Okay. Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

02:05:19.220 So it is a permanent attribute, from your view, that hurting somebody else is bad.

02:05:26.980 Yes.

02:05:27.740 Why?

02:05:28.100 Because you are causing them physical harm, which is a disruption to social order.

02:05:35.660 Why is that bad, though?

02:05:38.740 Well, because you would have no social order. You would not be able to progress as a society.

02:05:42.800 And physical harm is painful. You are causing someone pain. It is bad to cause someone pain.

02:05:48.300 I think that's the new paradigm.

02:05:49.080 But you just keep, do you understand, like, what you keep saying is it's bad because it's bad.

02:05:54.300 Well, it's causing a negative.

02:05:55.560 Because it's bad because it's bad.

02:05:57.000 You are taking something away from someone, which is their physical, like, just capability.

02:06:03.080 So if it were the case that most of society, most of society, believed that enslavement was fine because it was inherent that some people were allowed to own other people, would that be bad?

02:06:17.560 But that's not an inherent truth.

02:06:19.760 Well, what makes physically hurting someone else an inherent truth?

02:06:23.480 Physically hurting someone else is an inherent truth because you are denying them bodily autonomy and the ability to control what happens to their body.

02:06:32.140 And you were causing a net negative to that person.

02:06:35.380 Yeah, but you haven't actually told me why that part of that is bad.

02:06:38.980 Causing a net negative to others is bad on every single moral.

02:06:43.320 Like, as a Christian, you should know why hurting other people is bad.

02:06:47.060 I know why Christians think so. 1.00

02:06:48.620 I don't know why you think so.

02:06:50.500 I think so because, again, you're robbing them of their bodily autonomy.

02:06:53.740 Yeah, but you don't tell me why that's actually bad.

02:06:56.380 So you start, this is what makes it question begging.

02:06:59.240 You start with the assumption as the conclusion.

02:07:01.980 You start with the premise as a conclusion.

02:07:03.780 Hurting people is bad because it's bad to hurt people.

02:07:06.900 Yes.

02:07:07.200 That's your position?

02:07:09.820 No, I'm saying hurting people is bad because you are robbing them of their physical autonomy and you are creating a net negative to another person.

02:07:17.260 So if you could hurt people collectively in some way and it causes good outcomes, would that be bad?

02:07:22.580 Yes.

02:07:23.520 Well, then you just negated what makes it bad.

02:07:26.780 Well, that's because I'm not a consequentialist.

02:07:29.360 Then why are you making the claim that this is bad if even the good results are still bad?

02:07:34.140 But it's not a good result if you are hurting people at a net negative.

02:07:37.780 If it is a net negative, then it is not good.

02:07:40.840 If hurting people is a universal net negative to those people and the more people you hurt, the more negative it is, then hurting people in that instance is also bad.

02:07:55.200 What makes it a net negative, though?

02:07:57.600 Physically harming someone is negative to them.

02:08:00.160 You are causing pain, which is a negative to them.

02:08:02.720 Okay, and do you agree that there are some groups who maybe have negative outlooks that you need to cause pain to?

02:08:10.200 If they are hurting other people and the negative of those people is outweighing the negative of hurting them, then potentially.

02:08:16.480 What if they just refuse to comply?

02:08:17.920 But that's why, like going back to the force theory, that's why force is used in some situations to control others.

02:08:28.660 And it is used immorally when it is not controlling someone who is putting a net negative.

02:08:35.220 I want to tell you about a little island called Papua New Guinea.

02:08:38.580 Oh, God.

02:08:39.200 On this little island called Papua New Guinea, there is a tribe called the Come Warriors of Papua New Guinea.

02:08:46.660 You might think I am making this up.

02:08:47.980 I am not.

02:08:48.460 No, I feel like I have heard of this before.

02:08:49.860 This isolated tribe in Papua New Guinea, what they enjoy doing is, well, they have the yits of the tribe, the younglings who are male, go over and blow all of the adults, essentially, the yits. 1.00

02:09:06.940 They go over and like service them, let's say.

02:09:09.440 Yeah.

02:09:09.720 Okay, that's what they do.

02:09:10.760 Yeah.

02:09:11.020 However, when psychologists go and look at this, the kids there actually demand to do this because it's a part of their culture.

02:09:20.500 Now, me as a Christian, I would say that's inherently bad.

02:09:24.680 Right.

02:09:25.320 Why would you?

02:09:26.620 What basis could you have to justify if there's no negative outcome, which is what you're saying bad is?

02:09:33.580 If there's no negative outcome?

02:09:34.880 Well, there is a negative outcome.

02:09:36.560 They're demanding to do it.

02:09:37.980 Yeah, but psychologically, pedophilia does have an inherently negative outcome.

02:09:41.020 Well, PDF.

02:09:41.800 Let's say PDF.

02:09:42.620 Oh, right.

02:09:42.840 Sorry.

02:09:43.060 Sorry.

02:09:43.120 But on top of that, right, even when you say that, the psychologist said that they were demanding to do this.

02:09:50.300 It's part of their cultural right.

02:09:52.980 They're demanding it.

02:09:54.660 They don't want to not be adults in the culture. 1.00

02:09:57.320 Me as a Christian, I would go in there and put an end to that fucking shit in one second. 1.00

02:10:01.360 I would bring my military in there, and I would kick them on the fucking ground, and I'd take those kids out of there and be like, fuck that. 1.00

02:10:08.140 A tribe like that doesn't even deserve to exist. 1.00

02:10:11.220 That's what I would do.

02:10:12.580 Okay.

02:10:13.200 Okay?

02:10:14.060 But from your perspective, why is that bad?

02:10:18.060 If there's no psychological damage, they're demanding to do it, why is that bad?

02:10:23.520 Yeah, I don't really know, honestly.

02:10:27.120 I'll concede that one.

02:10:28.540 Now, I do have a question in terms of the use of force.

02:10:32.780 I just want to make sure that it's on record that you just said that you don't know why it is that an entire tribe that does this with children is bad. 0.85

02:10:41.040 I just want to make sure that you are clear that you just said that.

02:10:45.080 I think it's bad because P3DO is inherently bad because it is inherently psychologically damaging to children, even if they demand to do it.

02:10:53.560 Even if there's no – even if the ramifications of the removal of them doing that, the kids fight tooth and nail to go back to do that because they want to be part of the manhood of the tribe.

02:11:05.580 I'm sorry, what?

02:11:06.540 So even if you try to get them away from doing that, they demand to go back and do that, right?

02:11:12.300 They're demanding it.

02:11:13.760 What's the greater psychological harm then?

02:11:16.600 The greater psychological harm is in – I would say it's a net negative to encourage and endorse pedophilia.

02:11:23.680 Well, you're not.

02:11:24.320 You're not.

02:11:24.700 It's an isolated tribe.

02:11:25.960 It's not being endorsed by anybody anywhere.

02:11:29.940 Well, I mean if you were there and you had the opportunity to prevent it and you didn't –

02:11:33.940 Why would you, from your worldview, try to prevent something which is only bad by the metrics that you stated that it causes harm when this isn't causing harm?

02:11:42.700 I don't believe that psychologically it doesn't cause harm though.

02:11:47.640 Okay, but wouldn't there be a worse psychological ramification if you separate them and they absolutely demand to go back and are like willing to kill to get back to their tribe to do this?

02:11:56.160 Yeah.

02:11:57.000 Okay, so I mean I don't know.

02:11:58.640 It sounds an awful lot like you're defending PDF file.

02:12:01.320 I don't think I'm defending PDF file.

02:12:02.540 It sounds like you're defending PDF files.

02:12:03.740 I don't think the PDF file is immoral.

02:12:05.760 Well, but why?

02:12:06.840 You just keep saying because inherently it is even though you can't give the causal for bad.

02:12:10.760 I'm not saying it's inherently it is.

02:12:11.000 P3DO is inherently negative because it has a psychological damaging effect on children.

02:12:16.900 Well, if we can't even move into what bad is other than what is bad, what is bad, what if I use –

02:12:22.480 So how do you define bad, Andrew?

02:12:23.240 Yeah, yeah.

02:12:23.680 So I'll use this – well, you're under the internal critique now.

02:12:25.960 I just defended my worldview.

02:12:27.220 Now it's your turn.

02:12:28.020 So I will –

02:12:28.520 So moving on to your next –

02:12:29.980 Well, do you want me to define it then?

02:12:31.560 Well, you don't need – you – I mean, I guess you can try real quick if you want to do that on the social side or we can just move right into your feminist worldview of what is bad. 1.00

02:12:43.080 What would be the difference between a feminist worldview of what is bad and a hero of what is bad? 0.99

02:12:46.100 I'm trying to make the determination then if it is the case that all I have to do is prove to you that feminism has caused negative outcomes, then you would concede that feminism is bad, right? 0.93

02:12:57.900 But feminism hasn't caused negative outcomes. 1.00

02:12:59.260 But if I could demonstrate that it has, then you would concede it was bad.

02:13:04.460 But it hasn't.

02:13:05.280 But if I could demonstrate that, you would have to concede it's bad, right?

02:13:08.440 Well, you can't.

02:13:09.100 But if I could?

02:13:10.620 You can't.

02:13:11.720 But if I could, would you concede it was bad?

02:13:14.140 I want to hear your definition of what is bad, though.

02:13:16.020 Why would my definition of bad have anything to do with what your definition of bad is?

02:13:20.940 Well, because I think throughout this entire debate, you have been advocating against the free will and the bodily autonomy of this significant group of people.

02:13:27.660 My whole view –

02:13:27.780 I mean, you want to – hold on.

02:13:28.840 Pause.

02:13:29.040 You want to disenfranchise voters.

02:13:30.420 My whole view was already up for internal critique, and I gave you the entire internal critique of my argument of force doctrine for an hour and a half, and now it's my turn for the internal critique.

02:13:41.280 It was not an internal critique of the argument of force doctrine for an hour and a half.

02:13:44.320 Let's calm down.

02:13:45.300 Do you know what time it is?

02:13:47.760 Yeah, it's about to be 545 around.

02:13:50.340 Yeah, so it was about an hour and a half.

02:13:52.340 So here's the thing, right?

02:13:54.600 When we get into feminism itself, if I can demonstrate to you that the outcomes of feminism have been bad, will you concede that it's bad, if I could?

02:14:03.960 If you can demonstrate that the outcome of feminism is bad, how would you, under the force doctrine – and that would be saying that to remove –

02:14:11.020 It has nothing to do with my view.

02:14:12.220 No, let's pause.

02:14:12.740 You're now under internal critique.

02:14:13.900 I'm saying that under the force doctrine, the only way to remove feminism would be through force. 1.00

02:14:18.720 If we can both agree –

02:14:20.060 That's not the only way to remove feminism. 1.00

02:14:21.540 Really?

02:14:22.240 But I thought all power comes through force.

02:14:24.180 So?

02:14:25.480 So what?

02:14:26.040 So then how would you remove power?

02:14:27.420 The fundamental building blocks of power would still be there, but it would not be the only way to remove feminism. 1.00

02:14:32.760 So you believe that there are other ways to fundamentally have and consolidate power besides force?

02:14:37.100 Well, it's not just a matter of power, though, right?

02:14:40.120 But that is what the point of feminism is. 1.00

02:14:41.360 This is the big problem.

02:14:42.480 You don't even understand what's being said.

02:14:44.620 But here's the thing.

02:14:46.020 Back to this on feminism. 1.00

02:14:48.400 Do you agree with me that feminism has not kept its promise of protecting women?

02:14:57.120 I think it's making progress.

02:15:00.920 I think it's done better, but I don't think it's –

02:15:03.240 Well, how has it done better if we've had now about 150 years of feminism and women are in more dangerous situations they've ever been in the history of the United States? 1.00

02:15:13.140 Why do you believe women are in more dangerous situations now? 0.99

02:15:15.040 Well, I'm sorry.

02:15:15.440 Do you agree with all of the RAIN statistics on sexual assault and all these various things?

02:15:21.040 Well, sexual assault statistically has increased, but, again, the amount of reporting has also increased.

02:15:26.020 And so has STDs.

02:15:27.040 Before sexual assault.

02:15:27.600 So has STDs.

02:15:29.380 Well, that affects men and women. 0.69

02:15:30.340 So have mental illness not as much as it does women. 0.99

02:15:33.100 Okay, but I feel like you're completing – 0.95

02:15:34.340 Not as much as mental – hang on.

02:15:35.760 I'm going to give you the laundry list.

02:15:36.960 Sure. 0.96

02:15:37.260 Mental illness is much higher in women.

02:15:39.120 Single motherhood, much higher in women, right? 0.99

02:15:41.100 Divorcee, much higher, right?

02:15:42.540 All of the – by every single conceivable metric for negative outcome, you would have to concede that we've had nothing but negative outcomes from feminism. 1.00

02:15:52.440 But I think you're –

02:15:52.920 The intact family home has been completely eliminated due to feminism. 1.00

02:15:56.540 That's not true.

02:15:57.660 Yes, it is true.

02:15:58.860 I think you're conflating causation and correlation, though.

02:16:01.760 Okay, I'm sorry.

02:16:03.000 Is it feminists and feminist organizations that push for no-fault divorce all over the United States? 1.00

02:16:10.500 Sure, yes.

02:16:11.300 Yeah, and I'm sorry, but do you think that we have more or less intact families because of that?

02:16:17.420 Okay, but living in an unhappy home, like why should people be subject to live in – to live in –

02:16:22.600 What about the positive outcomes for children?

02:16:24.540 Like even if it were the case that you didn't really like your husband, but your children had better outcomes if you stayed with him, shouldn't you?

02:16:29.840 Your children will not have better outcomes to live in.

02:16:31.160 If they did, wouldn't you?

02:16:32.860 I personally would rather live in a family that is separated, but both of my parents are happy and healthy.

02:16:37.140 Well, that's great what you would personally like to do, but if it were the case that –

02:16:41.320 I think most children would, though.

02:16:42.320 I mean, if you're in an abusive –

02:16:42.960 Yeah, if it were the case, though –

02:16:44.140 Okay, but what if you're in an abusive home?

02:16:45.140 If it were the case, though, that you were to be in a relationship with a man, you didn't particularly liked him, but you stayed together and your children had better results because you stayed together, right?

02:16:55.220 Would you stay together with him?

02:16:56.500 That's my question.

02:16:57.340 Yes, but what if you're –

02:16:58.240 Yes.

02:16:58.600 But you're forgetting about abusive relationships.

02:17:01.580 You're forgetting about a relationship in which one parent is an addict.

02:17:03.860 Nope, not forgetting.

02:17:04.520 You're forgetting about one parent in a relationship in which a parent is a cheater.

02:17:07.600 Yeah, we'll go over those two.

02:17:08.340 A child would be significantly – it would be significantly more beneficial for a child to be removed from a parent.

02:17:12.920 Yeah, I'll give you the stats there as well.

02:17:14.340 That is.

02:17:14.860 So as we dive into this, understand that cohabitation between men and women is what leads to mostly abuse, not marriage.

02:17:22.340 The marriage rates of abuse are very low in comparison to cohabitation.

02:17:25.360 Cohabitation is the standardization, which you see with divorcees.

02:17:29.540 That's where most of the abuse comes from.

02:17:31.440 Where it doesn't come from usually is from the husband in the home.

02:17:34.460 But you're saying that cohabitation is leading to abuse and marriage is cohabitation.

02:17:39.180 No, no, no.

02:17:39.940 Cohabitation would be you're living with a man without being married to him. 0.94

02:17:43.540 Okay, so you think that they should marry – but, like, that would be having a child out of wedlock, which is –

02:17:47.820 Yeah, you don't need to have a child out of wedlock either. 0.64

02:17:50.820 Like, these things are not mutually exclusive.

02:17:52.560 So if it is the case you have cohabitation, it leads to more abuse, the prescription for that for the less negative outcome would be marriage, right?

02:17:58.720 No, the prescription for that would be to separate those two people.

02:18:01.400 If cohabitation of two partners who are not married is leading to abuse, then why should those people then get married?

02:18:07.000 Yeah, okay.

02:18:07.260 That doesn't make any sense.

02:18:07.940 Okay, no, no, no.

02:18:08.900 The fact that they're married and the fact that when you're married there's less abuse than when you cohabitate would point and indicate that cohabitation is a bad idea.

02:18:18.440 Not that marriage is a bad idea.

02:18:19.880 No, I think it would point and indicate that couples who cohabitate without being married, it's better. 1.00

02:18:26.660 Why should they get – why should you get married to someone who you cannot even cohabitate with? 0.95

02:18:30.460 Because abuse rates skyrocket when you cohabitate and are not married.

02:18:34.380 So those who are cohabitated in an abusive relationship, once they get married, you're claiming that their abuse stops.

02:18:38.580 No, no, cohabitation itself leads to more abuse.

02:18:41.880 Okay, so then why would the remedy of that be for those two people to get married?

02:18:47.780 Because oftentimes the cohabitation begins from divorce. 0.96

02:18:51.640 So you're saying that cohabitation – what the fuck does that even mean? 0.90

02:18:56.020 It means that post-divorce women tend to cohabitate more, especially when they have kids. 1.00

02:19:00.500 And it's the cohabitation with these people which leads to the abuse in their kids or the abuse of them.

02:19:06.440 So you're saying that they should stay in an unhappy relationship instead of –

02:19:09.640 Only if we care about outcomes.

02:19:11.980 And you said, if it is the case that I stayed with my man and the outcome for my kid was better, you should probably do that.

02:19:18.420 So if it's the case that I can demonstrate for you that when women leave their husband, the abuse rates for them and their kids skyrocket for cohabitation –

02:19:25.320 But what about the outcome for that woman?

02:19:27.020 What about the outcome for that man?

02:19:28.320 My turn.

02:19:28.600 I mean, that's a net negative for two adults versus a net negative for two for a child.

02:19:32.540 Here's what you said.

02:19:33.600 You said specifically, if it is the case that I'm married and the results are better for my kids –

02:19:41.420 Wait, one second, one second.

02:19:42.280 One second?

02:19:43.000 You said filibuster the debate?

02:19:44.540 I'm not telling me.

02:19:45.000 Hold on.

02:19:45.640 Why is your mom calling in the middle of a debate? 0.99

02:19:47.340 I don't know.

02:19:48.420 I don't know.

02:19:51.660 There we go.

02:19:52.500 Hold on.

02:19:53.000 Okay.

02:19:53.440 Hold on.

02:19:53.700 Hold on.

02:19:54.240 Now we're going to let a couple of chats come through.

02:19:56.660 Pop champagne.

02:19:57.900 Yeah, that's for the olive jar.

02:20:00.800 Bring it.

02:20:01.060 Savage destruction tonight.

02:20:02.740 Oh, I don't want to eat a pickle jar.

02:20:04.560 It's an olive jar, so it might be easier.

02:20:06.700 We weren't able to find – sorry, we couldn't find a pickle jar.

02:20:09.200 Go ahead.

02:20:09.540 Put it on the corner there.

02:20:10.500 He paid $1,000 for a pickle jar.

02:20:12.600 You should get a pickle jar.

02:20:13.240 You know, actually, I'll see what I can do.

02:20:16.140 Okay.

02:20:17.140 Can you –

02:20:18.320 Do you have a source on –

02:20:19.960 You got to open it.

02:20:20.880 Oh, I have to open it right now?

02:20:21.780 Yeah.

02:20:22.280 Okay.

02:20:22.620 Yes.

02:20:22.920 It's easier because it's an olive jar, though.

02:20:25.240 Wait, put it – 0.98

02:20:25.740 My nail is fucking me up. 0.98

02:20:27.300 Yes, I do have a source for that. 0.97

02:20:29.060 If you would like it, it's from the NIS.

02:20:31.140 Anybody can find it.

02:20:32.020 I just cited all of the statistics on it yesterday.

02:20:35.560 Uh-oh.

02:20:36.280 It sounds good.

02:20:37.440 Come on.

02:20:37.920 You can do it.

02:20:38.640 Put it right side up.

02:20:39.700 You can do it.

02:20:40.320 You got this.

02:20:41.220 All right, bro.

02:20:41.700 I can't do it.

02:20:42.220 Here.

02:20:42.420 All right.

02:20:43.900 Oh, my God.

02:20:46.360 Do you – I guess – yeah, Andrew, go ahead.

02:20:48.500 I'm supposed to open the pickle jar?

02:20:50.780 It's like a – yeah.

02:20:52.520 Oh, jeez.

02:20:53.200 Dude, this seems a little immature now.

02:20:55.700 For $1,000.

02:20:56.640 It's $1,000.

02:20:57.640 Yeah, but it seems slightly immature. 0.96

02:20:59.600 It's all fucking slick now. 0.95

02:21:01.000 It's a little fun. 0.96

02:21:01.980 I got to grip it.

02:21:02.820 Uh-oh, Andrew.

02:21:03.640 If you can't open it either –

02:21:04.940 Well, your hand greased the whole top of it.

02:21:07.760 My hand or mine.

02:21:08.620 Here, high five.

02:21:09.280 My hand or mine.

02:21:09.500 Literally –

02:21:10.500 It's – like, feel it.

02:21:11.980 Tell – isn't that greasy?

02:21:14.000 It was like that already.

02:21:15.000 Oh, my God.

02:21:15.300 No, it wasn't.

02:21:16.200 You greased the top.

02:21:17.140 Use your shirt.

02:21:17.740 Use your shirt.

02:21:18.420 Andrew, if you can't open the olive jar, you cannot blame my hand.

02:21:20.900 While we're doing olive jar –

02:21:22.360 If you're so strong, you should open it.

02:21:24.080 Yeah, I got to be able to grip it.

02:21:25.700 Okay, we'll grip it.

02:21:26.600 Let's go.

02:21:27.020 It's literally slippery.

02:21:29.200 Uh-oh.

02:21:30.900 Back foot.

02:21:31.480 Grab me a paper towel so I can dry the top of it off.

02:21:34.040 Okay, once the top is dry, if you still can't get it off.

02:21:35.460 But do we now need to allow her another opportunity with a – 0.99

02:21:38.460 Yeah, give her the paper towel so that – 1.00

02:21:39.940 Give her the paper towel. 1.00

02:21:40.480 No, I think you should do it, Andrew.

02:21:41.760 You're the big, strong man.

02:21:42.840 There you go.

02:21:43.340 Come on.

02:21:44.100 Here, I'm going to let some chats come through.

02:21:46.740 We've got some chats while they're working on that.

02:21:48.520 Red Fox, thank you.

02:21:49.740 The ontology prioritizes intent, but threshold exceptions introduce consequentialist reasoning.

02:21:56.440 I'll let you go first if you want.

02:21:58.160 No, Andrew, I greased it all up.

02:21:59.560 There you go.

02:21:59.980 If all the rules are absolute, introducing a threshold is ad hoc.

02:22:03.280 Red Fox, thank you for that.

02:22:08.340 Appreciate it. 1.00

02:22:10.940 I can't grip the fucker. 1.00

02:22:12.800 Uh-oh. 1.00

02:22:13.320 Like, I got to have a way to grip it.

02:22:15.020 Jungle.

02:22:15.400 Andrew, I'm sorry.

02:22:16.560 It's not –

02:22:16.700 My fingers slip right off the lid.

02:22:19.840 My fingers are literally slipping off the lid.

02:22:21.960 I just can't grip it.

02:22:22.880 You know what?

02:22:23.400 Maybe the olive jars are harder than the pickle jars. 0.99

02:22:26.120 They're not hard to open, but I can't grip the fucking thing. 1.00

02:22:29.520 Watch this shit. 0.99

02:22:30.120 So you can't blame me for my greasy fingers now. 1.00

02:22:32.460 Like, God.

02:22:33.200 It's still greasy.

02:22:34.480 The top of it's like –

02:22:35.300 You tried it with, like, four million apples.

02:22:36.320 Feel it yourself.

02:22:37.140 Tell me I'm wrong.

02:22:37.600 You know what?

02:22:39.200 Is that not greasy and sticky?

02:22:40.680 It is actually a little greasy. 0.98

02:22:41.320 Yeah, it's pretty fucking greasy. 0.91

02:22:43.180 I'm going to let – 0.96

02:22:44.360 But it's the top.

02:22:44.940 We looted $200.

02:22:46.680 Lulu, thank you for this.

02:22:48.120 Katara, you've got good morals, but you're not engaging with Andrew on the level in which

02:22:52.440 he's challenging you.

02:22:53.520 Oh, he's calling me.

02:22:54.100 Here.

02:22:54.340 You know what?

02:22:54.960 Yeah, this is not open at all. 0.99

02:22:56.980 Fucking Fort Knox. 0.99

02:22:59.480 Here, go, go, go. 0.99

02:23:01.500 Okay, now I want it to be –

02:23:02.720 I got this, boy.

02:23:03.540 You're pissing me off.

02:23:04.380 Yeah, I know.

02:23:04.880 Should we have Jake try it?

02:23:05.660 You'll see the same thing.

02:23:06.980 It's just greasy.

02:23:09.180 See? 1.00

02:23:09.880 It's fucking greasy. 0.99

02:23:11.400 It just slides off of it. 0.99

02:23:12.660 Yeah.

02:23:14.740 Okay. 0.97

02:23:15.500 It's just too fucking greasy. 0.94

02:23:17.180 Yeah, you know what? 0.91

02:23:18.300 You'll get the same thing.

02:23:19.060 Come in here, Jake.

02:23:19.840 You think –

02:23:20.240 Come on.

02:23:20.600 You'll see for yourself. 1.00

02:23:21.420 You can't get your fucking hand on it. 1.00

02:23:24.240 Try it. 1.00

02:23:25.800 No, you fucker. 1.00

02:23:27.780 That was bullshit. 1.00

02:23:29.380 Bullshit. 1.00

02:23:30.340 All right. 1.00

02:23:30.780 I just want to save a record.

02:23:33.420 We got a little olive juice.

02:23:35.620 Let's get it off the table.

02:23:36.780 So does he have your –

02:23:37.720 does he own your free will now because he could open it and you couldn't based on

02:23:40.920 Forrest?

02:23:42.120 Wipe it up.

02:23:42.720 He could at least grip it, I guess.

02:23:45.160 So, I don't know.

02:23:46.320 Here, wipe it up, though.

02:23:47.280 Yeah, yeah.

02:23:47.540 I'll get it, Brian.

02:23:48.360 Calm down.

02:23:49.200 It's all good.

02:23:50.960 Here you go.

02:23:53.420 You know, I've got to keep the table clean.

02:23:56.460 Oh, God.

02:23:57.160 Is Brian going to –

02:23:57.880 I'm going to lose my mind.

02:23:59.520 I'm going to lose my mind.

02:24:00.540 Is that good for you now, Brian?

02:24:01.760 I just want to remind you, Andrew, that Jake just totally mogged you.

02:24:06.880 Well, didn't Jake just totally mog you?

02:24:08.980 Well, hey, I only got it for like –

02:24:10.300 He mogged all of us.

02:24:11.240 Didn't Jake just mog you?

02:24:12.840 You had it for a minute, Andrew. 1.00

02:24:14.820 It was greasy as fuck and I couldn't grip it. 1.00

02:24:17.740 You were standing up and shit. 0.99

02:24:18.560 I got one more chat coming through and let's try to bring it back to feminism. 1.00

02:24:23.140 Avatar –

02:24:23.820 Avatar Gloctavius donated $200.

02:24:27.320 Oh, that's a great question, actually.

02:24:28.800 Do you think misogyny is worse than misandry?

02:24:31.860 If so, why?

02:24:33.200 Here's what we're going to do, though.

02:24:34.220 Yeah.

02:24:34.640 I like that question.

02:24:35.640 I mean, I have a quick answer.

02:24:36.800 I think they're both equally bad.

02:24:38.340 Time is limited, so we do have to kind of rapid fire through it.

02:24:42.380 So if you guys want to have a brief back and forth –

02:24:44.360 This is super quick.

02:24:45.100 I don't know.

02:24:45.160 I want to get back to the view.

02:24:46.200 I agree with that.

02:24:47.180 No, I don't think misogyny is worse than misandry.

02:24:52.420 I think they are both equally bad.

02:24:54.960 I think that – specifically, I think that the point should be to create a society in

02:25:01.100 which both sexes work together. 1.00

02:25:02.380 I will acknowledge that there are differences between men and women physiologically, but

02:25:07.480 at the same time, I do think that mentally both groups are an inherent net positive on 0.96

02:25:12.260 our society, and I think that it is better if both groups work together.

02:25:16.220 And anyone who is willing to sow divisiveness between men and women, I do not agree with.

02:25:21.120 By the way, I just want to point out to the chat to go over to Jake's travel blog and

02:25:25.220 watch as he couldn't cock a rifle, and I had to literally grab it from him and cock this

02:25:29.420 rifle because he couldn't do it.

02:25:30.720 I just want to point that out.

02:25:32.840 He's salty, man, though.

02:25:38.020 Yes.

02:25:38.620 The jar – is Indiana Wilson in the jar of doom?

02:25:42.500 Would it be worth covering male privilege, for example, as it relates to feminism?

02:25:48.220 Wait.

02:25:48.620 I just wanted to really quickly say on the topic of cohabitation versus marriage in necessarily

02:25:57.620 an unhappy home, as we both agreed that feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the basis

02:26:03.820 of equality and equity of the sexes.

02:26:06.260 To be able to promote that women can also get a divorce as well as men, I don't think

02:26:12.320 is advocating in favor of cohabitation, and both can be true.

02:26:16.740 I don't think that those are mutually exclusive.

02:26:18.000 There's better topics to cover, I think.

02:26:19.920 Do you want to –

02:26:20.380 The problem with that is that we're using your metric for what is bad.

02:26:24.100 Under your metric for what is bad is the negative outcomes.

02:26:26.380 There's negative outcomes with those relationships.

02:26:28.220 Therefore, they are bad.

02:26:29.600 I already told you that I'm not an inherent consequentialist.

02:26:31.800 Yeah, I know.

02:26:32.240 But every time I try to get a justification out of you, you just went back to negative

02:26:35.380 outcomes.

02:26:36.000 Otherwise, bad is bad, is bad, is bad, is bad, is bad, is bad, is bad.

02:26:38.720 Okay, but you can't really quantify the net negative outcome of something that doesn't

02:26:41.920 happen.

02:26:42.120 Actually, I can quantify the negative net outcome.

02:26:45.520 I can look at what happens to the children who are abused.

02:26:48.500 I can give you the stats from the NIS.

02:26:49.960 I went over all of them yesterday, right here on this very program with a different feminist

02:26:54.000 debater.

02:26:54.400 So then what you're arguing is against cohabitation, but not against the right to get a divorce.

02:26:58.780 Unless it's feminists who are doing everything they can in order to produce the outcomes 1.00

02:27:03.520 for marriage and cohabitation.

02:27:07.020 I mean, I don't know who you're talking to, but I'm not doing everything I can to produce

02:27:10.760 the outcomes against.

02:27:12.840 Got it.

02:27:13.000 Like, you can say that cohabitation is bad, but women still deserve a right to divorce 1.00

02:27:17.060 a husband that is.

02:27:17.680 Okay, well, let's move on.

02:27:19.100 We'll move on to the next one.

02:27:20.160 I'm fine with that.

02:27:20.880 Yeah.

02:27:21.220 And we'll do the final internal critique for the debate.

02:27:23.680 It's not done.

02:27:24.300 What's the next topic, Brian?

02:27:25.420 Or do you want me to bring one up?

02:27:27.600 I mean, we could cover differentials when it comes to privilege, male privilege versus

02:27:33.040 female privilege. 1.00

02:27:36.380 What's the question?

02:27:38.200 What's the...

02:27:38.700 Do you believe that there's...

02:27:41.160 Do you think male privilege exists?

02:27:44.000 Yeah.

02:27:44.560 I mean, in a certain sense, yes.

02:27:45.780 And is it greater than female privilege?

02:27:48.320 I think that we all have inherent privileges, and I think it's important to talk about intersectionality

02:27:52.780 when we talk about privilege.

02:27:54.100 Yeah, but what's the question is asking specifically?

02:27:56.920 Do you think that...

02:27:57.780 Andrew, you don't let me finish my statement.

02:27:59.600 Yeah, because...

02:28:00.000 You want me to finish the statement because you don't know where I'm going with it.

02:28:02.240 Yes or no?

02:28:02.880 Do men have more privilege in society? 0.76

02:28:04.340 I think some men do, yes.

02:28:06.800 But again, I would think that a disabled man probably has less privilege than an able-bodied

02:28:12.720 woman, depending on what his disability is.

02:28:15.400 If we were to take all women and put them collective as a group, and all men collective as a group, 0.90

02:28:20.380 would you say that men are more advantaged or have privileges over women, or that women 0.84

02:28:24.460 are privileged and have advantages over men?

02:28:26.700 Yeah, I would say collectively, men probably have more privileges than women. 1.00

02:28:29.260 Okay, so now we understand exactly what it is that we're arguing, so let me just start

02:28:34.000 with this.

02:28:34.560 What about the draft?

02:28:36.400 What about the draft?

02:28:37.180 So how is it that men are privileged over women when men can be drafted and women cannot?

02:28:42.280 Well, that would be an example of when women have a privilege over men. 1.00

02:28:45.240 I don't think the draft should apply to anyone, though.

02:28:47.340 To be honest, I think the draft is...

02:28:48.100 But it does apply to men, right?

02:28:49.060 I know, and I don't even think we should have a draft.

02:28:50.920 But we do have a draft.

02:28:51.580 I think that that is inherently immoral as well.

02:28:53.020 Yeah, but we do have a draft.

02:28:55.200 We do, descriptively.

02:28:56.800 I know, and we should have.

02:28:57.540 And how could it be that men, young men especially, can be drafted at the age of 18, 19, 20 years

02:29:02.460 old, be sent to fight wars, often on behalf of women who can vote them into those wars, 1.00

02:29:07.260 right?

02:29:07.760 How is that a privilege that men have?

02:29:09.880 And what is the...

02:29:10.960 If you had to pick anything that you could point to for women that is on par with that

02:29:16.840 duty that men have, I want to hear what it is.

02:29:18.760 I would say probably the societal role of the traditional wife and the inability for 0.93

02:29:24.980 certain women, or the promotion of an idea that women should not be allowed to work.

02:29:30.620 Who promotes that women should not be allowed to work? 1.00

02:29:33.700 You do.

02:29:34.320 No, I don't.

02:29:35.440 So you think that women should be allowed to work? 1.00

02:29:36.940 Women have always been able to work. 1.00

02:29:38.780 And you think that outside of the home?

02:29:40.680 Yeah, of course they've always been able to work outside the home.

02:29:43.000 Oh, hey, that's great.

02:29:43.920 What does that have to do with anything?

02:29:45.060 I mean, part of the whole manosphere and the promotion of these social norms and social

02:29:51.320 rules.

02:29:51.760 That's where you're wrong.

02:29:52.960 You see, actually, you have the more misogynistic view.

02:29:57.780 No, but I'm against that.

02:29:58.420 You have the more misogynistic view.

02:30:00.420 The truth is, is that what the manosphere would say is that a lot of them say, no, those 0.99

02:30:04.940 women need to fucking work, otherwise they're in a position of privilege being at home. 1.00

02:30:09.560 So let me ask you this. 1.00

02:30:10.600 Are women in a position of privilege? 1.00

02:30:12.040 What manosphere podcaster is saying that?

02:30:13.160 Oh, you hear them say it all the time.

02:30:14.260 Are women in a position of privilege? 1.00

02:30:16.480 Really?

02:30:16.580 Candace Owens isn't saying that.

02:30:17.520 Hang on, stop, stop.

02:30:17.720 Myron Gaines isn't saying that.

02:30:18.660 Yeah, they do.

02:30:19.600 But here's the thing.

02:30:20.440 Andrew Tate is not saying that.

02:30:20.920 I'll demonstrate it for you.

02:30:22.100 None of them are saying that.

02:30:22.280 Are women in a position of privilege when they're stay-at-home moms? 1.00

02:30:25.740 No.

02:30:26.360 Are they in a position of privilege when they're working?

02:30:28.760 Unless they, I mean, I think that they're in a position of equality or equity.

02:30:34.360 That's the goal.

02:30:35.420 But so then that would mean by that logic, they're oppressed by being stay-at-home moms. 0.94

02:30:40.700 I think that if they are not using their free will to decide whether or not they're a stay-at-home mom.

02:30:45.020 Yeah, they're a stay-at-home mom. 0.98

02:30:46.620 Okay.

02:30:47.080 Are they privileged or not privileged?

02:30:49.240 Is it a privilege to be a stay-at-home mom or is it not a privilege to be a stay-at-home mom?

02:30:53.560 Or is it a privilege for women to work or is it not a privilege to work? 1.00

02:30:56.680 I think it depends circumstantially.

02:30:58.880 If a stay-at-home mom is choosing and has her free will to be a stay-at-home mom and that is an arrangement that she made with her husband who would also like to do that, then it can be, yes.

02:31:08.140 But if a woman does not have the right to make that choice and if you are, you know, proposing a society in which we follow strict gender rules and societal rules in which only women can. 0.81

02:31:19.140 Yeah, but gender norms show women always working, always having work. 1.00

02:31:24.080 Yes.

02:31:24.520 The idea is gender norms, what they don't show is that it's a good idea for women to take their reproductive years in work outside of the home. 1.00

02:31:32.340 That's stupid. 1.00

02:31:33.520 That makes no sense. 1.00

02:31:34.620 Yes, of course.

02:31:35.500 How do you establish yourself in a career if you, like, actively have a child at home?

02:31:39.440 You establish yourself in a career after your childbearing years like everybody else would.

02:31:44.240 So you have to start work at, like, 40?

02:31:46.800 Versus having children at 40?

02:31:49.000 Well, you don't have to.

02:31:49.600 You can do both, though.

02:31:50.660 You can have children and establish a career.

02:31:51.300 But here's the thing.

02:31:52.000 This is what's so funny.

02:31:52.840 Do you think, then, that if you split, moms split their attention between their children and their career, that their children are going to get as much attention as they would if the mom didn't have a career?

02:32:05.240 But why should a mother not have the ability to have a career? 1.00

02:32:08.920 For their children.

02:32:10.480 Well, then just don't have children if you don't want that.

02:32:11.660 They would do it.

02:32:12.280 Right, exactly.

02:32:13.080 This is my point, though, right?

02:32:14.340 It's like, so why wouldn't you?

02:32:15.820 But women make up 47% of the labor force. 0.88

02:32:18.100 Literally millions of women do this every day. 1.00

02:32:20.560 Yeah, and you know what happens?

02:32:22.160 Our birth rate.

02:32:22.960 Do you know what it's at?

02:32:24.260 It's a lot lower significantly.

02:32:25.700 Why?

02:32:27.580 Because women are having kids older. 1.00

02:32:30.020 But that's free will.

02:32:31.580 You can't just usurp someone's right to have free will because their job is having babies. 0.97

02:32:34.840 So let me ask you, is it a negative thing that the birth rate is declining to the point where we can't even sustain our population?

02:32:42.120 Well, we could if we'd allow immigrants to come in. 1.00

02:32:43.640 Wait, wait, wait.

02:32:44.280 So you want to replace the population?

02:32:46.060 No, I'm not a replacement theorist.

02:32:47.920 You want to replace the population? 0.78

02:32:49.720 Can we go back to...

02:32:50.480 No, no, no.

02:32:51.120 Can you answer the question?

02:32:52.820 If it is the case that our population's massively decreasing, which you just conceded it is,

02:32:59.180 because women are having children older, which you just conceded they are, 1.00

02:33:02.560 and you say that's a good thing,

02:33:04.620 and then say it wouldn't go down if we had immigrants come in, 0.98

02:33:08.240 how is that not replacing the population?

02:33:09.880 I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I don't understand what your solution is.

02:33:12.360 Should women not be allowed to work until after they've had children? 1.00

02:33:13.760 It's your internal critique time now.

02:33:15.880 Tell me real quick...

02:33:17.000 Should women not be allowed to work until they've had children? 1.00

02:33:19.520 Why are you asking me questions instead of answering them now?

02:33:21.920 It's my turn to ask the question.

02:33:23.920 Why is that?

02:33:24.660 Who said that?

02:33:25.240 We're having an open discussion.

02:33:26.560 Because you just internally critiqued,

02:33:27.800 and I allowed you for over an hour at least, my position, my turn.

02:33:32.400 So real quick, can you tell me why it is that when you get to the point

02:33:37.220 where you cannot replace your own population,

02:33:40.100 and you say, well, we wouldn't have a problem with that if we opened it up to immigrants,

02:33:43.580 how is that not you advocating for replacement?

02:33:46.220 I'm not advocating for complete replacement.

02:33:48.040 I'm not saying people should just stop working and stop having children,

02:33:50.640 and it should be entirely up to immigrants.

02:33:52.700 But, I mean, if we did have more channels for immigrants to come into this country legally,

02:33:57.120 you know, we might not be worried about the population.

02:33:58.620 Would that replace the domestic population? 0.74

02:34:00.620 What's the problem with doing that, though?

02:34:02.240 I mean, are we not all humans?

02:34:04.440 Would it replace the domestic population?

02:34:07.100 It wouldn't completely replace it.

02:34:08.440 Would it mostly replace it?

02:34:09.780 It would add.

02:34:10.700 Why is it replaced?

02:34:11.980 It's adding.

02:34:12.680 Because if the people who are, okay, let me ask you this.

02:34:16.020 Is it a good thing that Native Americans don't have a lot of kids? 1.00

02:34:20.260 Why aren't they having kids?

02:34:21.860 Well, is it a good thing that they are or are not?

02:34:24.220 Would you rather see Native Americans having more kids? 1.00

02:34:27.660 I mean, I don't.

02:34:28.620 Like, why is it a bad thing that we came over here and took land from the Native Americans 1.00

02:34:33.340 and replaced their population?

02:34:34.500 Why is that bad?

02:34:35.340 Well, because we killed millions of people.

02:34:37.960 And caused significant amounts of suffering.

02:34:39.580 Actually, most of what killed Native Americans was not genocide.

02:34:47.560 It was disease.

02:34:48.520 The Trail of Tears killed millions of people.

02:34:50.680 Okay.

02:34:51.320 Actually, no.

02:34:52.240 The Trail of Tears didn't kill millions of people.

02:34:54.640 Yes, it did.

02:34:55.480 How many millions do you think died in the Trail of Tears?

02:34:57.940 Let's Google it.

02:34:58.680 Google it.

02:34:59.200 All right.

02:35:01.160 How many millions died at the Trail of Tears?

02:35:03.340 It says an estimated 4,000 out of 16,000 Cherokee people, or wait, forced to relocate.

02:35:12.720 Let me see deaths.

02:35:14.300 How many millions?

02:35:16.560 It says estimate that 6,000 men, women, and children die on the 1,200 mile march called

02:35:23.020 the Trail of Tears.

02:35:23.840 Cherokee.

02:35:25.220 Okay.

02:35:25.420 So, it's 6,000 anywhere close to millions and millions.

02:35:31.000 How many Native American people were killed from colonization?

02:35:33.200 Can you Google that one for me?

02:35:34.260 Yeah, disease.

02:35:35.000 No, no, no.

02:35:35.640 How many were killed by disease?

02:35:36.960 How many Native Americans killed by...

02:35:40.240 Colonization.

02:35:43.340 It's a millions of people.

02:35:44.820 No.

02:35:45.320 Disease killed them.

02:35:47.100 Disease killed the overwhelming amount of Native Americans.

02:35:49.400 You know that we used chemical warfare.

02:35:51.120 Or not we.

02:35:51.940 Oh, we did, huh?

02:35:52.680 So, we didn't understand anything about how diseases worked, but we were able to use diseases

02:35:56.800 for chemical warfare, huh?

02:35:57.920 What do you mean we didn't understand how diseases worked?

02:35:59.100 I never said that.

02:36:00.240 When do you think we understood the disease process?

02:36:03.260 You know that smallpox blankets, blankets that were infected with smallpox...

02:36:06.600 Total myth.

02:36:07.160 ...were given and gifted.

02:36:08.460 No, it's not.

02:36:09.380 How... 0.99

02:36:09.840 No, the fuck it's not. 1.00

02:36:10.820 Bullshit. 1.00

02:36:11.320 Okay, let me ask you a question. 1.00

02:36:12.220 Andrew, that's not a myth.

02:36:12.840 You get sick...

02:36:13.940 Yeah.

02:36:14.100 ...and you don't understand how the disease process works because science hasn't discovered

02:36:18.300 it yet.

02:36:18.840 And then you hand a blanket that sick people have used to another person, not understanding...

02:36:23.060 Will you fact-check that one, too, Brian?

02:36:24.260 Check it.

02:36:24.880 Yes.

02:36:25.280 Which one?

02:36:25.980 Okay, wait.

02:36:26.680 First of all, how many millions were killed through...

02:36:28.260 Check the smallpox myth.

02:36:29.560 Get that one first.

02:36:31.080 In the United States, in North America, or the entire Americas.

02:36:36.440 Ooh, actually, if we didn't...

02:36:38.000 You're just goalpost shifting.

02:36:39.640 I mean, but that's not true.

02:36:41.160 I said that millions of people were killed through...

02:36:41.880 You said millions of people died during the Trail of Tears.

02:36:45.320 Okay.

02:36:45.700 Stop lying.

02:36:46.580 All right, then let's include all of the... 1.00

02:36:48.500 Holy shit, stop lying. 0.99

02:36:49.300 And also, all you have to do is check the disease... 1.00

02:36:51.800 But the whole point that you said is that Native Americans...

02:36:52.960 All you have to do is check the disease rates.

02:36:55.360 It was 80 to 90% of all Natives died from diseases.

02:36:58.420 And by the way, the smallpox blankets...

02:37:00.260 The question that you were asking...

02:37:00.640 The smallpox blankets happened hundreds of years after colonization.

02:37:04.480 Andrew, calm down.

02:37:04.800 Calm down.

02:37:05.400 The question that you were asking...

02:37:06.300 The smallpox blankets happened hundreds of years post-colonization.

02:37:09.660 Hundreds.

02:37:09.940 The question that you were asking...

02:37:11.660 Let's fact-check that.

02:37:12.720 But while you're doing that, the question that you were asking is, was the colonization

02:37:17.600 of the Americas bad?

02:37:20.100 And I'm saying, yes, it was, because it resulted in the deaths of millions of people.

02:37:25.560 Got it.

02:37:26.280 So, if the outcome...

02:37:27.980 And that would be a negative outcome, right?

02:37:30.220 Yes.

02:37:30.660 Oh, my God.

02:37:31.540 Why is it not a pandemic?

02:37:31.940 If Japan wants to keep itself Japanese, is that negative? 1.00

02:37:37.360 For what purpose?

02:37:38.400 Because they just want to be Japanese. 1.00

02:37:39.840 How are they doing that?

02:37:40.680 By not letting in any immigrants. 1.00

02:37:44.100 Are immigrants coming into their country, and are they detaining them in cages?

02:37:47.400 Very, very few are ever allowed to come in, yes.

02:37:51.180 Very few.

02:37:52.320 I mean, if they're not physically hurting or endangering those people, then I wouldn't

02:37:55.980 say that's necessarily a negative.

02:37:58.060 But I think it depends on the outcome for the Japanese population as well.

02:38:00.980 So, if the Japanese... 0.94

02:38:02.480 Let's just say that they only wanted their domestic population to be Japanese. 0.84

02:38:06.560 There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

02:38:09.780 I don't know.

02:38:10.680 You don't know?

02:38:12.720 Can I answer the question?

02:38:15.440 If there's a net negative that happens when the Japanese population self-isolates, then

02:38:20.160 I do think that there's something inherently wrong with that.

02:38:22.180 But I think it's hard to quantify how negative that is to that population.

02:38:25.980 So, like, if the Japanese were isolating themselves, and their birth rate was decreasing,

02:38:31.000 you would consider that to be negative?

02:38:32.880 Yes.

02:38:33.200 If they were losing population, if they were losing a labor force because of self-isolation,

02:38:37.640 if people were starving and people could not make enough money because of self-isolation...

02:38:40.680 Well, they weren't just starving.

02:38:41.540 They're not starving, but they're just not reproducing.

02:38:44.020 If people aren't reproducing and they're incapable of reproduction or...

02:38:47.040 They're capable of it.

02:38:47.960 They're just not.

02:38:49.360 Yeah.

02:38:49.580 I mean, if it is hurting that population, then I would say that's a net negative.

02:38:52.780 Okay.

02:38:53.060 So then if white people aren't reproducing, is that hurting their population?

02:38:58.440 It depends.

02:38:59.120 Do they want to reproduce? 0.99

02:39:00.760 It's seemingly...

02:39:02.240 Seemingly, the, like, primary edict is reproduction, right?

02:39:05.320 Okay.

02:39:05.700 Sure.

02:39:06.240 Okay.

02:39:06.640 So then if white people are not reproducing, that's harmful to white people's population. 0.63

02:39:10.540 Well, if the primary edict is reproduction, then why aren't they reproducing?

02:39:13.700 Well, because they defer their...

02:39:15.840 What's happened is there has been a massive campaign to defer all women's childbearing years

02:39:20.980 for college years.

02:39:22.460 This is in every industrial country we look at.

02:39:24.260 So what are you structurally advocating for?

02:39:25.860 I'm asking you this question.

02:39:27.860 I'm asking you, is it inherently bad that white people aren't reproducing? 0.72

02:39:33.580 No.

02:39:34.020 So is it inherently bad, like you just said, that the Japanese people aren't reproducing?

02:39:39.800 I guess no.

02:39:40.600 If they're exercising their free will... 1.00

02:39:42.320 What the fuck? 1.00

02:39:43.340 How is it bad if the Japanese don't reproduce, but it's bad if they don't, but it's not bad 1.00

02:39:49.640 if white people don't? 0.97

02:39:51.320 No.

02:39:51.660 I'm not saying it's bad if either group does.

02:39:53.760 What I'm saying is it depends on the effects to that population and why they're not reproducing.

02:39:58.480 If they're not reproducing as an exercise of free will and they are happier without reproducing,

02:40:04.540 then why is that negative?

02:40:05.640 So if we were to look at like the mental health outcomes of women who reproduce versus those

02:40:09.620 who didn't, which group would you say would be happier?

02:40:15.100 I'm not sure.

02:40:16.180 Which group do you say would be happier?

02:40:17.940 Statistically, which group is happier?

02:40:19.560 The group that's statistically happier are women who reproduce and have children.

02:40:22.520 Okay, but again, that's the whole causation-correlation thing, and it feels like...

02:40:26.460 The thing is, is like everything you can say is a causation, right?

02:40:30.900 We look for the primary causation for what is the correlation.

02:40:33.640 We even do this with things like drinking and driving, right?

02:40:35.900 So I could always say, no, it just correlates that drinking in your car leads to more accidents,

02:40:42.140 right?

02:40:42.440 But if it is the case that that's the primary correlate, then we tend to say it's because

02:40:46.800 drinking and driving, these accidents increase.

02:40:49.160 That's how you would do it.

02:40:50.120 So if that's the case, I'm just asking you again, the question, right?

02:40:54.840 When you say, oh, it's just correlation-causation, if the primary correlation is that they're having

02:41:00.200 children and that's what makes them happier and that women who don't have children are 1.00

02:41:04.180 less happy, then wouldn't you say that's a negative outcome?

02:41:08.780 Yes, I would say that's a negative.

02:41:09.920 But I do just want to ask, so let's say that that is a negative outcome.

02:41:13.680 What is your solution?

02:41:15.080 Do you think women should not be allowed to go to college? 0.99

02:41:17.380 Do you think women should... 1.00

02:41:18.440 I would just advocate for a national campaign, which asks women to keep the traditional family 1.00

02:41:23.980 intact because it's going to lead to the most amount of children and to defer those college

02:41:27.520 age years, just like we did in a national campaign to try to move women into college. 1.00

02:41:33.120 I would do a national campaign to say, defer those years for childbearing, and you can 0.99

02:41:37.340 always go to college later after your kids are grown, or you can do it from home.

02:41:40.420 Oh, that's not fun.

02:41:41.260 That's not the point of college.

02:41:42.060 Did you go to college? 1.00

02:41:42.940 The point of college is to go fuck? 1.00

02:41:44.360 No. 1.00

02:41:44.660 What's the point?

02:41:45.880 The point of college is to learn while you are young so that you can gain skills that

02:41:49.980 help you in the workforce and develop a career over time.

02:41:52.380 It takes time to develop a career.

02:41:53.580 You can just do that whenever.

02:41:54.580 You can develop the...

02:41:55.400 First of all, most of the people are getting degrees, by the way. 0.96

02:41:58.800 They ain't using those fucking degrees in any of those fields, are they? 0.95

02:42:01.420 What's your degree going to be in? 0.99

02:42:04.500 What's it going to be in? 1.00

02:42:05.580 Fucking your mom. 1.00

02:42:06.500 No, I'm joking. 1.00

02:42:06.960 Film production.

02:42:07.920 And do you think that you're going to end up a film producer?

02:42:10.580 Hopefully.

02:42:11.180 That's cool.

02:42:11.500 But I mean, do you think that the chances that most people who have a degree in film

02:42:14.900 production are producing film?

02:42:16.820 I mean, I happen to go to the best film school in the country, but, you know, I'm sure a lot

02:42:20.640 of you are.

02:42:20.780 I just had a woman I talked to yesterday who got a degree in comedy writing. 1.00

02:42:25.520 Oh, well, sorry.

02:42:27.380 Yeah.

02:42:27.960 Or psychology or sociology.

02:42:30.360 These fields are completely oversaturated.

02:42:32.800 But these fields are still useful.

02:42:35.280 Oversaturated.

02:42:35.720 But we also, okay, but we also know that people on average who get a college degree,

02:42:40.740 the median income for those people is higher.

02:42:42.920 Yeah, but guess what?

02:42:44.100 The negative effects, mentally, much higher than if they don't have children.

02:42:47.620 They're college educated.

02:42:48.540 So your plan is to usurp people's free will on their behalf.

02:42:50.540 How are you usurping it by having a campaign just asking people to defer?

02:42:54.640 Okay, and then if they choose not to do that, what happens?

02:42:56.440 They can choose.

02:42:57.300 But here's the thing.

02:42:58.340 It was extraordinarily.

02:42:59.580 Then do that.

02:42:59.740 Have fun.

02:43:00.080 It was extraordinarily effective to have the propaganda which said that women should be 1.00

02:43:06.500 going to college.

02:43:07.140 If you look at the college rates pre the propaganda, post it, right?

02:43:10.420 You can see that it had a great effect.

02:43:12.080 You could have the same type of effect which asked women to defer that for childbearing years

02:43:16.980 because they're happier, more well-adjusted.

02:43:20.100 And guess what you would be promoting then?

02:43:22.140 The old school gender roles.

02:43:25.260 Women fought an entire, I mean, not fought physically, but women had several, many movements 0.99

02:43:31.580 on the basis of demanding the right to choose whether or not they go to college and when.

02:43:36.340 Why would we do that if we didn't want to?

02:43:37.940 First of all.

02:43:38.260 Are you saying that the feminist revolution is a propaganda movement? 0.75

02:43:41.120 No, first of all, when it came to college, it was real.

02:43:42.500 I mean, there's currently more women in college than men. 1.00

02:43:44.360 If we didn't want to be here, why wouldn't we?

02:43:45.980 So when it came to college, there was very few.

02:43:47.960 There was these Ivy League colleges, there was very few colleges ever, and most men never

02:43:51.780 went to college either.

02:43:52.780 That's the truth.

02:43:53.580 Almost nobody ever went to college.

02:43:55.300 It was about the best and the brightest. 0.97

02:43:57.580 And what's happened is we've lowered the deviated standards so anybody can fucking go to college. 0.89

02:44:02.060 Now it's become a requirement for an entry-level job to go to college, which is insane. 0.89

02:44:06.420 But that's an issue with capitalism.

02:44:07.800 That's not an issue with feminism. 1.00

02:44:08.740 It's not an issue with capitalism. 1.00

02:44:09.180 It's an issue with stupid feminist propaganda. 1.00

02:44:12.080 It's not feminist propaganda. 1.00

02:44:13.060 Just a moment.

02:44:13.340 Just a moment.

02:44:14.520 I need to do a quick sidebar with both of you really quick. 0.99

02:44:18.240 So viewers, we're going to take a 20, 30-second intermission.

02:44:21.540 Just stay tuned.

02:44:22.600 Hold on for just a moment.

02:44:23.880 What did we do?

02:44:24.680 Oh, you guys didn't do anything.

02:44:26.120 One moment, guys.

02:44:47.960 We're going to try to go back to school.

02:44:55.060 Goodbye.

02:44:56.120 Thank you.

02:45:26.120 Thank you.

02:45:56.120 Feminism had to rely on men for physical force, even to open a fast jar. 1.00

02:45:59.720 My argument is that men rely on physical force of men, too.

02:46:03.020 So then what's to stop a man who's stronger than you from removing your physical force?

02:46:07.600 Why is he not?

02:46:08.220 Nothing.

02:46:08.880 That's what force doctrine is.

02:46:11.500 You still don't get it.

02:46:13.020 Last call, if you want to get the message in, $200 TTS, pull it up, streamlabs.com slash whatever.

02:46:17.600 That doesn't mean, like, why are the leaders not, why are our leaders not the strongest people know about that?

02:46:21.040 Hold on, one more if you guys pay attention to this one.

02:46:22.560 Pasty George donated $200.

02:46:24.020 Thank you, Pasty George.

02:46:24.860 It's estimated that approximately 90% of the indigenous population in the Americas, or about 55 million people, died during the colonization period.

02:46:36.580 Continued.

02:46:37.240 Continued.

02:46:38.020 Do we want to see the rest?

02:46:39.300 How do we see the rest?

02:46:39.720 Yeah, it's going to come in just 10 seconds.

02:46:42.240 Pasty George, thank you for the message.

02:46:43.380 If you guys want to get your own message here as we are getting ready to wrap up the stream, streamlabs.com slash whatever.

02:46:49.360 $200 TTS.

02:46:50.360 Get them in.

02:46:51.620 Pasty George donated $200.

02:46:54.540 Thank you, Pasty.

02:46:54.960 This drastic population decline is attributed to a combination of factors, including disease, force displacement, and violence.

02:47:03.620 In Canada, a similar pattern of population decline occurred.

02:47:07.140 So, it is true that violence and forced displacement did kill a lot of Native Americans.

02:47:12.120 I'm not disputing that.

02:47:13.200 What I am saying, though, is that disease killed the overwhelming amount of the Native population.

02:47:19.040 By the way, did we ever get the results on whether or not smallpox...

02:47:22.880 The smallpox blankets...

02:47:24.140 Also, if he's not going to answer, we are going to drive up to Northern Cali, so I probably can't stay, if I'm being honest.

02:47:32.420 Well, just keep an eye on your phone, and if he gives you an answer, he gives you an answer.

02:47:35.120 Sure, we'll do, in that case, here's what we're going to do.

02:47:38.960 Oh, Mary, can I have you, hold on, I'll send you a private chat, Mary.

02:47:42.660 Give us a moment, guys, while we're just figuring out a few things here.

02:47:52.240 One sec, I need to bring it back to intro.

02:47:53.860 I don't know.

02:48:05.120 Okay, keep us posted on that.

02:48:11.460 Yeah, he's on D&D.

02:48:12.560 I mean, what do you want to do if he doesn't respond by 6.30?

02:48:21.080 Why don't we just do this?

02:48:22.880 Why don't you guys give your closing statements, and time permitting will allow for, like, a little overtime.

02:48:29.460 Okay.

02:48:29.840 We'll just do that.

02:48:30.880 So, Andrew, are you going, or...

02:48:32.880 I get to go last.

02:48:34.000 I open first.

02:48:34.780 So, you go, you give your closing statement up to five minutes, then Andrew will give his.

02:48:38.920 Go ahead.

02:48:39.360 Okay, hold on.

02:48:40.080 I'll be back here.

02:48:40.920 Take your time.

02:48:41.540 Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. 0.98

02:48:42.900 Okay.

02:48:44.440 So, there were a lot of statements made today.

02:48:47.300 Some of them I do agree with.

02:48:48.580 Some of them I don't.

02:48:49.660 And I do think that there is a difference between what we can do in terms of the forced auction and what we ought to do.

02:48:57.140 I think my goal, societally, is to advance us towards a mutually beneficial society.

02:49:04.780 And I think that a lot of the arguments made are not only negative towards men, but women as well.

02:49:11.540 So, socially, and I think that there are three differences, three negative impacts of kind of hating on the goal of equality, and they're social, economic, and political.

02:49:26.620 So, socially, it's fair to state that people are generally happier when they have free will, and that it is, although we cannot agree on a definition of free will,

02:49:34.440 it is inherently better to have a society in which all of us have a basic capacity for will over their body and bodily autonomy.

02:49:45.540 I think that a lot of the, we didn't really talk that much about feminism, if I'm being honest.

02:49:50.980 My closing statement is mostly about that.

02:49:53.380 But I guess what I'll say is that everyone deserves the right to free will without judgment, and that goes for men as well as women.

02:49:59.340 I think that a lot of the idea that men have to maintain force over others, and that if they don't do that, they are emasculating themselves, is inherently stifling to young men.

02:50:11.180 I think it's negative to young men.

02:50:12.440 I think it encourages aggression against each other and against women.

02:50:17.160 And I would argue that the equal force doctrine is inherently immoral.

02:50:21.480 It is immoral to police and dictate society exclusively on the basis of force. 0.98

02:50:27.520 If that was the case, then all of our presidents would be the president because they want to fucking arm wrestle. 0.97

02:50:32.760 I think economically, women do make up 47% of the labor force. 1.00

02:50:37.680 Like it or not, women add trillions of dollars to the GDP alongside men every year. 1.00

02:50:43.420 If we were to have women just step away from working and exclusively run the household, 1.00

02:50:51.500 we would be economically handicapping our own society.

02:50:56.200 And in terms of men, the wage stagnation for the middle class, which we didn't even get into,

02:51:02.940 there's been incredible amounts of wage stagnation for middle class and lower income workers.

02:51:07.300 According to Pew Research, after adjusting for inflation, middle class and lower income workers are making about the same now as they did in 1978.

02:51:15.440 They have the same spending power.

02:51:17.100 However, the cost of housing and living has gone up dramatically.

02:51:20.980 From 1970, the median home price was $23,000, which accounting for inflation is about $180,000 to today.

02:51:28.720 And in 2025, the median home price in quarter one of this year was $416,000.

02:51:36.360 So it's almost three times as high as it was in 1978.

02:51:40.020 And the average cost of raising a child is around $21,000 a year in the U.S.

02:51:46.040 Of course, that depends on where you are, but that's the national average.

02:51:49.960 I think if it is entirely up to men, and it puts the burden entirely on men to financially compensate for their household,

02:51:59.840 you're kind of disenfranchising them on a level as well.

02:52:02.400 I think the economic standard you're trying to hold men to is impossible and unfair, and I don't think that you had to live it because you're not the age of most men who are starting a family and who are starting work and who are starting to carry the financial burden of a society in which they are the sole providers for their household.

02:52:21.880 And then again, money is power.

02:52:23.740 And if women don't have the ability to make money, then they don't have the power to dictate what they do with themselves. 1.00

02:52:28.440 And they don't have the power to get basic resources for their children, like food and water and lights and housing.

02:52:37.860 And then politically, I think this one got kind of messy because Andrew doesn't seem to believe in basic representation for either men or women.

02:52:48.080 But I believe in a representative government.

02:52:49.840 I think that it is fundamentally illogical and practically impossible to create a government that is not based on the representation of all people.

02:52:59.420 I just think that's immoral.

02:53:00.980 And maybe I can't answer why that is, but I think a lot of people agree that they would like the right to vote. 1.00

02:53:06.440 And just because you are stupid does not deny you the right to vote. 0.99

02:53:11.240 But despite being slightly more than half of the U.S. population, women have yet to make up 30% of the government. 1.00

02:53:19.840 In history, the total number of female Supreme Court justices is 6 out of 116. 0.99

02:53:26.140 That's like 5%.

02:53:27.480 And I just don't think you can claim to have a representative democracy if it has never accurately represented the population.

02:53:34.540 But it doesn't sound like Andrew wants a representative democracy anyway.

02:53:37.520 So I guess that's besides the point.

02:53:39.180 But in closing, I think that it's important to note that you literally cannot have a society of men or only women.

02:53:47.960 We actively just have to work together.

02:53:49.780 There's nothing we can do to avoid having to live and work together.

02:53:53.620 And I think that by hurting – thank you.

02:53:57.380 Oh, you're talking –

02:53:58.020 You're good.

02:53:58.320 You're good.

02:53:58.520 Sorry.

02:53:58.840 How much time do I have left?

02:54:00.940 Well, Andrew will give his closing statement, so you can take your time, though, to finish up.

02:54:07.100 Yeah.

02:54:07.420 But anyway, I think that enforcing stringent gender norms and I think that enforcing strict gender roles 0.91

02:54:12.640 and I think that encouraging people to fall into those roles if that's not how they would like to exercise their free will is inherently immoral.

02:54:18.000 I do.

02:54:18.760 It fundamentally is.

02:54:19.760 To force people to do things that they do not want to do isn't a moral act.

02:54:24.320 And it hurts both men and women because we fundamentally cannot exist without each other.

02:54:29.640 We are the same species.

02:54:31.160 And I don't know.

02:54:33.500 You just got to make it work.

02:54:35.560 All good?

02:54:36.300 Yep.

02:54:36.540 Okay.

02:54:37.180 My nose is itchy.

02:54:37.940 Do you want to just check your phone and see if you heard from him?

02:54:40.480 Yeah.

02:54:41.040 All right, Andrew, would you like to give your closing statement?

02:54:45.060 Yeah, so my opponent, this debate was particularly annoying because she just literally has no idea what she's talking about. 1.00

02:54:53.100 She contradicted herself multiple times.

02:54:54.900 She conceded the force doctrine. 0.86

02:54:56.640 She said that there was millions of people who died on the trail of tears, just to name a few crazy-ass things that she said. 0.93

02:55:02.360 Oh, my God.

02:55:02.580 She did a question-begging fallacy, which then moved on into another contradiction when we went into what actually even makes a thing bad.

02:55:10.980 She couldn't decide on what even her ethical purview was in which she was holding feminism to the standard of an ethical purview. 1.00

02:55:17.080 We couldn't even get past a lot of that.

02:55:19.400 So then we move into feminism itself. 1.00

02:55:21.400 She ends up conceding to most of my points there as well.

02:55:24.140 She says that if the Japanese, if their birth rate went down, that would be bad by her standard.

02:55:28.620 If white people, it wouldn't be bad. 0.99

02:55:29.900 But then she contradicted that as well.

02:55:31.600 It was this one contradiction after another.

02:55:34.180 In fact, I would say, out of all the opponents I've ever had, this particular one contradicted herself more than maybe any other I've ever dealt with.

02:55:42.600 When I go back through it and we clip it up, I got a feeling that it's just going to be like 800 contradictions.

02:55:51.420 The other thing to focus on, too, is that she conceded altogether force doctrine.

02:55:55.900 She ended up at the very end explaining that she not only agreed that it's descriptively true, but that men have no obligation whatsoever to utilize force on behalf of women.

02:56:07.080 There's no moral ought for them to do that, which is exactly what force doctrine dictates.

02:56:11.620 So she made a complete concession on that as well. 0.98

02:56:15.960 She says that hating on equality is stupid, but we started to kind of dive into this. 0.86

02:56:20.540 We weren't able to get to it, but a bit on college when she conceded the point that the standards have been lowered to the point where now a degree is necessary to get a job. 0.97

02:56:31.100 You can see this with DEI across the board.

02:56:33.180 It's not an empowerment of anybody.

02:56:35.560 It's a lowering of standards, which hurts everybody.

02:56:38.640 And that's actually what's been going on in society for a long time is the lowering of standards.

02:56:43.380 That includes with college, right? 1.00

02:56:45.520 She concedes that most of the population is stupid. 1.00

02:56:48.160 That was what she said. 1.00

02:56:49.080 She said, you're right. 1.00

02:56:49.760 Most people are stupid. 1.00

02:56:51.640 Yet, I don't think she would say most women who go to college are stupid, which is interesting, isn't it, right? 1.00

02:56:58.900 Most population is stupid. 1.00

02:56:59.820 Most women who go to college are not. 1.00

02:57:01.980 But if you agree that most population is stupid, then you would probably have to concede that most population goes to college is also stupid, which means the standards have been lowered there so that they can pass college, right? 1.00

02:57:12.920 She says 47% of the labor force are women. 1.00

02:57:16.800 And then she acts like that's a choice, right?

02:57:18.900 She's like, no, women are empowered because they have the choice to do that. 1.00

02:57:21.940 It's like, no, they don't actually have the choice to be stay-at-home moms and two-income economy anymore. 0.99

02:57:27.820 And that is taking choice away from women. 1.00

02:57:31.720 That's not empowering anybody.

02:57:33.560 And if you look at the mental health crisis of women, it's almost always related to their obligations at work and family, where if they could just focus on one or the other, those mental health issues tend to deteriorate.

02:57:45.960 So on basically every single point my opponent lost, it was wild to see, but she mostly lost because I was willing to stand up to the internal critique of my view of force doctrine and still got the concession out of her on what force doctrine was and the application of it.

02:58:03.680 And then on top of that, every subsequent point, I basically got a concession out of.

02:58:10.080 So I don't really know how much more I could have won this particular debate, but I do appreciate having it.

02:58:16.960 You want to keep going?

02:58:19.720 Did you hear back from...

02:58:21.520 No, I didn't, but let's just do it.

02:58:24.040 How long?

02:58:24.960 Yeah, I'll do the 30.

02:58:26.380 Okay, here, so let's do this.

02:58:28.240 We'll do overtime.

02:58:29.300 But first, we have a quick moment here.

02:58:30.900 Why did we just do closings?

02:58:32.580 Well, we were... 1.00

02:58:33.360 Oh, fuck it. 1.00

02:58:33.720 That's what I said. 1.00

02:58:34.280 I didn't, because we didn't know.

02:58:34.960 We'll do closing and then there's our...

02:58:36.660 Here, pickle jars, please.

02:58:38.200 All right, guys, so we have pickle jars for each of you.

02:58:40.920 Doesn't someone have to pay an additional $1,000 for me to open another pickle jar?

02:58:43.120 How do you know they didn't?

02:58:44.900 Well, because it says it on the screen.

02:58:46.080 No, that doesn't mean he shows every single one of them.

02:58:48.000 All right, just go ahead and give it, and we've given you, if you need to wipe it down or whatever.

02:58:53.320 I can't do this with my nails on, but okay.

02:58:57.620 All right, I didn't get it.

02:58:59.380 Give it another, come on.

02:59:00.360 Oh, no, it's so hard.

02:59:01.740 You've got to tap it.

02:59:02.360 You've got to tap it?

02:59:03.060 All right, let's see.

02:59:05.360 Do it on the table if you can. 1.00

02:59:08.740 Oh, shit! 1.00

02:59:10.260 Wait, put it on the table? 1.00

02:59:11.060 Put it on the table? 1.00

02:59:11.980 Ripping the fucker. 1.00

02:59:12.960 Oh. 1.00

02:59:13.240 Uh-oh.

02:59:16.500 Oh, I got myself.

02:59:17.700 Oh, no.

02:59:18.940 There we go.

02:59:19.900 Okay. 1.00

02:59:20.260 Just got to be able to rip the fucking thing. 1.00

02:59:20.860 Wow, you know, you undersold yourself a little bit. 1.00

02:59:24.200 You undersold yourself.

02:59:25.500 That wasn't that hard.

02:59:26.660 All right, take them off the table, please.

02:59:28.260 Yeah.

02:59:28.540 Well done to both of you.

02:59:29.680 I got myself very messy.

02:59:30.420 Well done to both of you.

02:59:32.420 I do just want to go back to some of the claims you made in your closing.

02:59:36.280 I'm not really interested in debating my closing.

02:59:39.140 No, I'm not debating your closing.

02:59:40.640 Let's focus on feminism, though. 1.00

02:59:42.120 So bring it to feminism. 1.00

02:59:43.320 I mean, all of this is feminism, though. 1.00

02:59:45.420 I think that part of the issue is that you seem to have this inherent need to...

02:59:49.960 Why do you say inherent so much?

02:59:51.220 It doesn't make you sound smarter.

02:59:54.580 You're going to let me finish?

02:59:55.540 Well, I just...

02:59:56.280 I'm really actually wondering, why do you say inherent so much?

02:59:58.980 Because you've argued this point on several many claims.

03:00:02.200 You seem to have an inherent need to limit the free will of others.

03:00:05.760 You say you don't want more people to vote.

03:00:07.820 You say you don't want women to go to college.

03:00:09.500 You say you don't want women to be in the workforce.

03:00:12.280 Everything is about limiting the free will of both men and women on a certain point. 0.99

03:00:17.500 When it comes to the concessions, I agree that I did concede on a few points, but I think

03:00:25.340 that that's healthy to admit when, you know, your opponent makes a valid argument.

03:00:29.780 However, I will say in terms of your argument, out of both your desire for less people to 0.99

03:00:35.660 vote, out of your belief that stupid people should be somehow prevented from voting, and 0.94

03:00:40.300 out of your beliefs on feminism, you don't actually promote a practical application of 1.00

03:00:44.520 those beliefs.

03:00:45.300 What does that mean?

03:00:46.580 What's impractical about any of the applications of my beliefs?

03:00:49.580 It's impractical to create an IQ test for people to be then paid to do unpaid labor that's

03:00:57.180 volunteer-based, but you're paying for their housing in order to allow a minimum amount

03:01:02.080 of people to vote.

03:01:03.200 Do you agree that you can have, like, 50 different options for how you can limit the idea that

03:01:07.860 uninformed voters can go after informed voters?

03:01:10.540 Who's creating these options?

03:01:11.660 Are you creating all these options?

03:01:12.160 Can I finish the answer?

03:01:13.500 No.

03:01:14.660 Just let me know.

03:01:15.360 No.

03:01:15.520 No, you can do it.

03:01:16.360 I'm joking.

03:01:16.920 Yeah, yeah.

03:01:17.520 So if you can see that you can have, like, 50 different ways in which you can skin the

03:01:21.760 cat, right?

03:01:23.020 Some of those ideas, you may bring up valid points against them and say, well, okay, well,

03:01:26.640 perhaps that's not practical.

03:01:27.940 But, like, here's a practical application.

03:01:29.600 If you limited voting to the age of 35, what's impractical about it?

03:01:33.380 It's impractical because half of all of the population that's under 35 would be subject

03:01:38.060 to laws that they have no say.

03:01:40.960 Yeah, so what?

03:01:41.460 See, so that's what I'm saying.

03:01:42.580 All you want to do is limit free will.

03:01:43.580 That doesn't tell me how it's impractical.

03:01:45.320 What's impractical about it?

03:01:46.880 It's not necessary.

03:01:47.600 It's impractical because millions of people would not be able.

03:01:53.980 What are you doing?

03:01:54.640 I'm trying to figure out where we get to the impractical part.

03:01:57.160 What's impractical?

03:01:58.140 It's such an interesting thing.

03:01:58.500 You're just giving me more descriptors.

03:02:00.060 Millions of people won't be able to do something.

03:02:02.320 Yes.

03:02:02.520 Millions of people right now can't kill people.

03:02:04.260 That's impractical.

03:02:05.280 It's like, what makes it impractical?

03:02:07.200 Because throughout human history, people have fought for the right of self-determination.

03:02:10.940 It is clearly a right that...

03:02:13.300 Here!

03:02:14.240 We fought an entire war about it.

03:02:14.580 That's not all throughout human history.

03:02:16.360 What are you talking about?

03:02:17.020 That's one example.

03:02:18.080 We fought a war about it.

03:02:19.140 The British fought a war about it.

03:02:20.280 The Haitians have fought a war about it.

03:02:21.700 Lord, so you're talking about...

03:02:22.500 The Indians fought a war about it.

03:02:23.200 That's not all throughout history.

03:02:25.060 It is entirely human history.

03:02:25.980 That's one block of history, modern history.

03:02:29.760 What does that have to do with anything?

03:02:32.340 What are you talking about?

03:02:33.540 World War II was founded on a belief that people should not be killed.

03:02:39.120 That was a fight in terms of free will.

03:02:41.400 That was a fight for the free will of others.

03:02:43.280 World War II was founded on the belief that people should not be killed.

03:02:47.820 The Nazi party and Hitler was trying to limit the free will of others. 0.85

03:02:50.800 Yes or no?

03:02:51.660 No.

03:02:52.560 They weren't.

03:02:53.340 No.

03:02:53.680 Not at the beginning of the war.

03:02:54.920 You don't think that taking over other people's countries and territories is limiting their

03:02:59.300 free will as a country?

03:03:00.400 No.

03:03:00.980 You're threatening the sovereignty of a nation.

03:03:02.660 You're talking about practical applications.

03:03:04.480 When you're talking about the beginning of the war, you're talking about the Treaty of

03:03:08.080 Versailles.

03:03:08.520 The Treaty of Versailles led to Western and Eastern Germany being divided by the war powers.

03:03:15.080 The war powers, when they divided them, it created all sorts of conflict in Germany.

03:03:18.680 Hitler began off of a campaign of reunification of Eastern and Western Germany.

03:03:23.680 Actually, you would be making the point that because there was conflict in the First World 0.97

03:03:29.900 War, which led to the Treaty of Versailles, that Germany got fucked. 0.96

03:03:32.560 That's what you would be arguing. 0.96

03:03:33.680 But then he went on to invade several many countries.

03:03:36.000 Yeah.

03:03:36.140 He went on to invade Poland.

03:03:37.360 On the basis of a hatred.

03:03:39.500 And we went on to invade Germany.

03:03:41.720 What's your point?

03:03:42.700 Yes.

03:03:43.000 Go to the Russians. 1.00

03:03:44.520 Exactly.

03:03:45.180 All of these fights are about sovereignty and free will and self-determination.

03:03:48.720 No, they're not.

03:03:49.320 All of them.

03:03:49.820 Yes, they are.

03:03:50.280 Not all these fights are about free will and sovereignty and self-determination.

03:03:53.060 Some of them are about exploitation.

03:03:55.320 Some of them are about wanting land.

03:03:56.440 Some of them are about money.

03:03:57.480 Some of them are about expansionary considerations.

03:03:59.440 Exploitation is the denial of someone's free will.

03:04:02.300 That is what that is.

03:04:02.980 All these fights are not about free will.

03:04:05.460 You'd have to demonstrate that.

03:04:06.680 How is every fight about free will?

03:04:09.080 Not every single fight. 0.99

03:04:10.420 What the fuck? 0.99

03:04:11.340 What are you talking about? 1.00

03:04:12.940 Thousands of fights throughout human history.

03:04:14.880 People have fought throughout human history for their free will.

03:04:17.040 Most people never fought in human history for the purposes of freedom or free will or anything else.

03:04:23.760 Yes, they have.

03:04:24.100 That's just unfair.

03:04:24.900 I'll tell you what.

03:04:25.460 Give me the examples before the 20th century.

03:04:28.120 In fact, let's do it easy.

03:04:30.580 Before the year 1700, name a single place on earth that was fighting for free will.

03:04:35.760 The feudal system?

03:04:38.120 We can talk about the creation of France.

03:04:39.540 The feudal system was fighting for free will?

03:04:41.700 No, I'm saying those who fought against the monarchies and the overthrown of several many queens and kings.

03:04:46.900 The people fighting against monarchies were people who wanted to be the monarch.

03:04:51.220 Not entirely.

03:04:52.300 Yes, basically entirely.

03:04:52.760 If you were fighting against a monarchy that is usurping your free will.

03:04:54.560 Waiting for an example.

03:04:55.620 Give me an example.

03:04:56.380 I'm waiting.

03:04:57.280 If you were fighting against a monarchy that is usurping your free will, you were fighting against free will.

03:05:01.100 But what I'm saying is, consistently, throughout this debate, you have advocated against the free will and the sovereignty of other people.

03:05:08.740 And I think that that is inherently divisive.

03:05:11.020 It's inherently wrong.

03:05:12.440 Why are you doing that?

03:05:13.520 Yeah, so this would be the same exact answer for why it is that tribalism, I would want to divide tribalism, because I don't like tribalism.

03:05:20.660 So I would actually want it divided into larger blocks so that tribalism went down.

03:05:24.520 So it's just bigger tribalism.

03:05:25.360 I don't know.

03:05:26.160 Well, you would actually at least have some sort of voting block that made sense, that wasn't completely decadent on social programs, where all of us had to tribalize together to build these blocks, try to fight against everybody else.

03:05:39.820 A terrible idea always has been.

03:05:42.080 You conceded that it is.

03:05:43.560 You keep on saying I'm fighting against free will.

03:05:45.060 But I don't think that a representative democracy is inherently a tribalism.

03:05:46.440 You keep on saying that I keep fighting against free will.

03:05:49.020 That sounds like a two-party system.

03:05:49.860 You haven't actually demonstrated for me, we don't, listen, you're talking about a national system as two-party.

03:05:55.800 Localized systems are not that way.

03:05:57.440 Andrew, you literally said that free will is a privilege that people do not deserve.

03:06:01.340 No.

03:06:01.540 You literally said that.

03:06:02.340 When?

03:06:02.900 When did I say that people didn't deserve free will?

03:06:05.420 When we were talking about the equal force doctrine.

03:06:07.180 You don't even understand what I'm saying to you, so we'll try this again.

03:06:10.200 I do understand what you're saying to me.

03:06:11.360 What you're saying to me is immoral and wrong.

03:06:13.020 Let me show you.

03:06:13.800 If it's immoral and wrong, tell me what makes limiting free will immoral.

03:06:18.980 You are hurting other people.

03:06:20.560 You are causing them pain.

03:06:21.960 You are inflicting a net benefit, net negative on society.

03:06:26.060 So what makes that, what makes that bad though?

03:06:30.000 It makes it bad because you are causing someone pain.

03:06:32.380 How do you not agree with me that causing someone pain is bad?

03:06:35.560 Like, how are you not understanding that causing people pain is bad?

03:06:38.840 Why?

03:06:39.160 Because causing them pain is bad.

03:06:40.420 Yeah, but why is that?

03:06:40.960 Because it's bad.

03:06:41.480 You're increasing human suffering.

03:06:42.520 You are increasing human suffering.

03:06:44.240 Yeah, but you haven't, you haven't told me why that's a problem.

03:06:46.980 So you think that increasing human suffering is moral?

03:06:49.560 Do you understand that if I ask you a question, you haven't told me why butterfingers taste good. 0.97

03:06:53.240 And you're like, so you're saying butterfingers taste bad makes no fucking sense.

03:06:56.200 Do you think that increasing human suffering is moral? 0.86

03:06:59.460 No, I don't.

03:07:00.860 But I have, I have epistemic justification for that.

03:07:04.240 Why do you think it's bad?

03:07:05.940 Why?

03:07:06.760 Because you're increasing human suffering.

03:07:08.400 That doesn't tell me why it's bad.

03:07:10.260 You're fracturing society to it.

03:07:11.780 Like, you're talking about you don't like tribalism, but yet people need to usurp their 1.00

03:07:15.380 right to exist based on force.

03:07:18.900 That's just tribalistic as it gets.

03:07:20.900 They need to exert their right to exist based on force.

03:07:24.220 So then, force doctrine's true, right?

03:07:27.480 By your definition.

03:07:29.020 Okay, got it.

03:07:29.720 Under force doctrine.

03:07:30.140 So I just want to make sure I got this right.

03:07:31.700 I'm just agreeing with your definition of what it is.

03:07:34.260 If this thing is bad, because it's bad, because it's bad, then let me try this.

03:07:40.280 Limiting democracy is good, because it's good, because it's good.

03:07:44.900 Ask me why it's good.

03:07:46.520 Why do you think limiting democracy is good?

03:07:47.920 Because it's good.

03:07:49.320 But that's not what I said.

03:07:50.240 I gave you multiple reasons as to why it's bad.

03:07:51.620 Oh, I think it's good because it reduces tribalism.

03:07:54.340 You're just not listening to me.

03:07:55.120 I think it's good because it reduces tribalism, and it actually, voters then would have some

03:07:59.280 sort of responsibility.

03:08:00.120 I think there's all sorts of perks, which I've named, for systems of limited, even monarchies,

03:08:05.420 I think, would be better than unfettered democracy.

03:08:07.980 You're advocating for a monarchy?

03:08:09.120 I think it would be better than a democracy.

03:08:10.820 Are you joking?

03:08:11.580 Oh, no, not at all. 0.99

03:08:12.280 Are you crazy? 0.80

03:08:13.360 No, I'm sorry. 0.89

03:08:14.420 So you are trying to limit people's free will.

03:08:16.440 Under a monarchy, you systematically have less free will.

03:08:19.060 Says who? 0.65

03:08:19.960 You are not being represented by your government.

03:08:21.680 Why is that bad?

03:08:23.420 Because they're not acting in your interest and in the interest of the general population.

03:08:26.120 I don't think, oh, so my government's acting in my interest?

03:08:28.540 Go ahead and tell me, lie to me.

03:08:30.780 My government's acting in my interest?

03:08:32.500 Well, we've talked about NGOs and super PACs.

03:08:33.920 Is my government acting in my interest?

03:08:36.800 We would hope that it would.

03:08:37.960 Is it?

03:08:38.300 That's the point of representative democracy.

03:08:39.480 Is it?

03:08:39.780 Is my government acting in my interest?

03:08:41.380 I agree that this democracy is lawless.

03:08:42.580 Can you answer my question?

03:08:43.600 Is my government acting in my interest?

03:08:46.480 Sometimes.

03:08:47.480 When? 1.00

03:08:48.500 When it's not being a corrupt piece of shit. 1.00

03:08:50.060 Yeah, when? 1.00

03:08:50.500 What is it doing that's acting in my interest?

03:08:53.140 I mean, by establishing laws that maintain social order.

03:08:56.360 So, forced doctrine.

03:08:58.140 It acts in my interest by using forced doctrine.

03:09:00.220 That's not forced doctrine.

03:09:01.280 Establishing a law.

03:09:01.980 Monarchy also can provide security of law using forced doctrine.

03:09:06.200 What are you talking about?

03:09:07.000 But it's still not a representative democracy.

03:09:08.420 You haven't demonstrated why a representative democracy is the ultimate good.

03:09:11.760 Because why should you yield to a law that you have literally 0% say in who makes the

03:09:17.280 law and what the law is?

03:09:18.640 Again, right now, there's all kinds of people who make laws that I must obey that I had

03:09:24.660 no participation in whatsoever, true or false.

03:09:27.720 What laws?

03:09:28.500 So, you don't vote?

03:09:29.700 No, even if I voted.

03:09:31.040 That's the participation. 0.99

03:09:32.200 So, if I go to fucking Indiana, am I subject to Indiana law? 0.99

03:09:35.900 Yes. 0.99

03:09:36.200 Did I vote in any of them?

03:09:37.420 No, but you voted for a president.

03:09:38.760 Then your whole entire argument just fell apart.

03:09:42.700 If it is the case that people can make law, which I am subject to all over the world,

03:09:47.260 which they do, including my own nation, which they do, even in a local municipality right

03:09:51.540 next door to mine, which they do, and I have to adhere to them and can't vote in it, 0.99

03:09:55.260 you have to say that that's immoral.

03:09:57.740 But if you become a legal citizen of Indiana, then yes, you can.

03:10:00.000 If you become a permanent resident of Indiana, yes, you can.

03:10:01.840 Okay, great. 0.99

03:10:02.500 If you become part of the aristocratic fucking hierarchy, you can. 0.99

03:10:08.400 But why should you get to go on vacation and then vote in that place and then leave? 0.99

03:10:12.000 That's the point.

03:10:12.840 If you are a permanent resident, if you're saying if you go to Indiana, you'll be dictated to

03:10:16.660 those laws, yes, but you're not a permanent resident.

03:10:19.480 That's why you cannot participate in state and municipal democracy.

03:10:20.460 Yeah, you're just giving me descriptors, but the problem with you is like you keep saying

03:10:24.540 a representative democracy where everybody has an equal say in law is the best system

03:10:29.480 because otherwise you're limiting their cognitive ability to have free will.

03:10:33.740 And it's like, okay, but most laws, you have no participation in which you follow.

03:10:37.900 Almost all of them. 0.99

03:10:39.240 In fact, you're following laws right now that were made before you were even fucking born. 0.98

03:10:42.400 Most of them, in fact, you're following, which were made before you were even born. 0.98

03:10:47.220 So then why would the response to that be to give me less power?

03:10:50.260 You had zero participation.

03:10:52.420 Yes, which is why people fought for the right to vote. 0.97

03:10:55.000 I don't think if one man has the right to make laws that he has less responsibility to

03:11:02.020 his kingdom than you, the voter, do.

03:11:03.880 I mean, sure, because some laws were made before I was born.

03:11:06.100 Almost all of them?

03:11:07.560 Not almost all of them.

03:11:08.180 Almost all laws which you follow were made before you were born.

03:11:11.520 New laws are made every year.

03:11:12.480 What's my claim, though?

03:11:13.520 My claim isn't whether or not new laws are made every year, but whether or not most of

03:11:16.880 the laws which you follow on this planet were made before you were even born.

03:11:19.980 How do you justify a monarchy, though?

03:11:21.580 That doesn't make any sense.

03:11:22.440 So because I follow laws that made before I was born, I should get to exist in monarchy.

03:11:26.040 You have not even justified yet why a democracy is good.

03:11:30.340 All you say is because we have more participation rights in law.

03:11:34.820 And by not doing that, we're limited somehow.

03:11:38.200 But it's like most of the laws you follow, you never participated in.

03:11:41.920 It is limiting to not be able to actively participate in laws that you consistently have to.

03:11:48.360 You don't even have political power right now.

03:11:50.720 You have to bank on tribalism for political power because you have zero.

03:11:54.740 So then why would removing millions of voters give me and others more political power?

03:11:59.920 Because you have the ability to hold those voters accountable like you would a monarch.

03:12:06.160 That's why.

03:12:06.960 But I can currently hold my congresspeople accountable through my vote.

03:12:11.720 No, you can't.

03:12:12.760 How do you hold a monarch accountable, Andrew?

03:12:14.680 How do you hold a monarch accountable? 0.96

03:12:15.840 If you think accountability is they can do whatever the fuck they want, leave multimillionaires, 0.98

03:12:20.100 and you just voted them out of office, great. 0.98

03:12:22.860 I don't consider that accountability.

03:12:24.300 How are you holding a monarch accountable?

03:12:26.000 Well, a monarch would be overthrown for having unjust laws.

03:12:28.680 So then why would you advocate for a system in which the only way to overthrow those powers that be is through violence?

03:12:34.720 Yeah, if a monarch gets overthrown, they get killed.

03:12:37.240 It sounds like you're moving us backwards.

03:12:38.640 Why are you advocating for more violence?

03:12:40.600 Aren't you supposed to be a Christian? 1.00

03:12:41.000 How is that an advocation of more violence?

03:12:43.400 You said you want a monarchy, and you said that the way in which to control a monarch is through violence.

03:12:48.500 Democracy has not prevented social violence at all.

03:12:51.980 In fact, it has increased it.

03:12:53.720 Are you trying to tell me that in the last decade, democracy has saved us from political violence? 0.99

03:12:59.500 Are you fucking serious? 0.99

03:13:00.880 No. 1.00

03:13:01.360 Of course not. 0.98

03:13:02.260 It's a ridiculous standard. 0.92

03:13:02.940 But a monarchy is not going to save us from political violence? 0.89

03:13:05.260 Oh, hey, people are really mad about the right that they don't have free choice.

03:13:08.580 Let's give them less. 0.99

03:13:10.520 Listen, I'm not even advocating for a monarchy.

03:13:13.680 Yes, you are.

03:13:14.240 You just said it.

03:13:15.120 I'm only telling you that you have not justified why a monarch would be worse than unfettered democracy.

03:13:18.820 And you haven't justified why a monarch would be better.

03:13:20.180 I have.

03:13:20.620 With limited democracy, I've shown you all the benefits for reducing tribalism, the NGOs, all the things that you hate, under your current...

03:13:27.220 But why can't an NGO still exist in a limited democracy?

03:13:30.960 Because you can hold the voters who are in the limited democracy responsible.

03:13:35.720 You publicize their names and their votes.

03:13:37.840 You want to dox voters? 1.00

03:13:39.480 Fuck yeah! 1.00

03:13:40.280 What the fuck is wrong with you? 1.00

03:13:42.040 I'm sorry, you don't want to know who votes in your interest? 1.00

03:13:45.000 But you're, like, encouraging violence against those people.

03:13:47.900 They're going to be harassed constantly. 0.99

03:13:48.840 I guess they better fucking vote right. 0.98

03:13:50.660 I literally just signed a document saying I couldn't dox the studio. 0.98

03:13:53.580 Why can't I dox the studio?

03:13:54.920 You're entering a private contract.

03:13:56.360 Is Brian representing you in government?

03:13:58.320 No.

03:13:58.800 Would you ever...

03:14:00.000 Hang on.

03:14:00.540 Would you ever elect a politician who is anonymous?

03:14:03.160 But that's how we know who the legislators are, not the voters themselves.

03:14:06.280 Again, I want to hold both of them accountable.

03:14:09.720 Both.

03:14:11.080 Both.

03:14:11.400 That just sounds like you're increasing the amount of violence against those people.

03:14:13.420 How is that increasing violence? 1.00

03:14:15.000 Because if someone votes in a way that I do not disagree with, and I'm a crazy motherfucker, 1.00

03:14:19.520 I can go and shoot them. 1.00

03:14:21.360 It's opening so many people up to vulnerability. 1.00

03:14:23.460 You can do it right now.

03:14:24.420 How would anyone want to vote if they're, like, just and they can't?

03:14:28.540 Hang on.

03:14:28.780 This is real quick.

03:14:29.660 Just real quick.

03:14:30.520 So, real quick.

03:14:31.360 Right now, aren't there millions of people who publicize who they voted for?

03:14:35.000 Yeah.

03:14:35.400 How come they're not getting shot?

03:14:36.640 Because it's their choice.

03:14:38.080 Oh, they would still be their choice.

03:14:40.700 We all have the right to vote, though.

03:14:42.200 Lord, why would that make a difference?

03:14:43.620 If we have the right to vote, then we can't get mad at people for voting for all we don't

03:14:46.480 like.

03:14:46.600 If it is the case that you thought that political violence would increase based on how many

03:14:50.300 more people have the right to vote or less people have the right to vote, if more people

03:14:53.740 came out saying they voted for the political candidate you don't like, you should see an

03:14:57.200 increase in political violence, and you don't.

03:14:59.800 But if only a few people have the right to vote, and if millions of people-

03:15:03.340 Like our politicians.

03:15:04.940 Okay.

03:15:05.540 Uh-huh.

03:15:05.940 But they're elected.

03:15:06.740 Again, they're still elected officials.

03:15:08.640 We're talking about the right to vote, not the right to be a politician.

03:15:11.120 If only a few people have the right to vote, and the rest of us are all disenfranchised,

03:15:16.000 and we see that that person votes against our interests, and we have absolutely no other

03:15:20.220 way to control them, what do you think is going to happen to those people?

03:15:23.520 The same thing that would happen right now.

03:15:25.860 What would be the distinction?

03:15:27.300 If you came out and said, I voted for Kamala Harris, and you're not getting shot now, why

03:15:30.380 would you be shot later?

03:15:31.600 Because now millions of people don't have the right to make that choice.

03:15:34.780 So what?

03:15:35.420 They're going to be mad about it.

03:15:36.360 Millions of people don't make the choice now.

03:15:37.840 You don't think millions of people are going to be-

03:15:38.700 Millions of people don't make the choice now.

03:15:40.080 And not only that, here's what happens.

03:15:41.640 Here's your great benefit.

03:15:42.480 Millions of people do.

03:15:43.180 I'm going to explain the great benefit that you have.

03:15:45.240 If you have it set that way for voters, right, where you have a voting class, which is at

03:15:50.060 least somewhat elite, based on the idea that they're enfranchised the proper way, even

03:15:54.140 if it's just at 35, what you do is you reduce the fact that the NGO and the lobbyists can

03:16:00.100 bribe that electorate group, especially if it's public.

03:16:04.140 If they can't approach voters, they can't do things like that, you eliminate that problem.

03:16:08.860 But those things are public for legislators now, and we still have NGOs bribing them.

03:16:11.320 No, they're not, because what happens is they bribe the electorate.

03:16:14.700 Yes, they are.

03:16:14.800 They bribe the electorate through drafting NGO legislation for the voter.

03:16:19.980 Trump just took a million upon million dollars.

03:16:22.980 He took a $400 million bribe from the Saudis.

03:16:25.500 No, he didn't.

03:16:26.040 Yes, he did.

03:16:26.520 No, he didn't.

03:16:27.040 The plane.

03:16:28.380 What plane?

03:16:29.340 He just got a private jet donated to him.

03:16:32.220 Oh, Lord.

03:16:32.380 I got to let a chat come in.

03:16:33.680 I got to let this chat come in from Glocktavius.

03:16:36.540 Avatar Glocktavius donated $200.

03:16:39.400 This is for you.

03:16:40.220 Naima, what would you say are your top three texts that would trigger Andrew?

03:16:44.620 Oh, also, can women be sexist towards men? 0.94

03:16:48.200 Can black people be racist towards white people? 0.91

03:16:51.180 Let's do this.

03:16:51.840 Answer the two questions at the end, then come back to the top three.

03:16:55.000 Okay, I think that there are different types of sexism and different types of racism.

03:17:01.180 So, in terms of, I actually have the definitions of some of the types of sexism.

03:17:04.920 Here, I'll pull them up.

03:17:07.380 No, I got you.

03:17:07.920 I got you.

03:17:08.260 Very quickly.

03:17:08.940 While you're looking at that, I'm going to let this one come through.

03:17:10.560 Pasty, George donated $200.

03:17:12.820 Thank you, Pasty.

03:17:13.400 Appreciate it.

03:17:14.160 Final call, guys.

03:17:14.860 The disease was a significant contributing factor in the decline of the indigenous people's population.

03:17:19.920 It was the primary cause.

03:17:22.340 The infected blankets were minor incidents.

03:17:24.740 I'm not pointing.

03:17:25.400 Correct.

03:17:25.640 Thank you, Pasty.

03:17:26.960 Okay.

03:17:27.360 Can you go back to the question?

03:17:28.980 Can women be sexist towards men? 1.00

03:17:30.580 Can black people be racist towards white people? 0.69

03:17:32.720 Okay, yeah.

03:17:33.440 So, there's actually multiple types of sexism and racism.

03:17:37.200 There's hostile sexism, benevolent, systemic, interpersonal, internalized, and ambivalent.

03:17:42.200 Now, I think that women can be all of those except for systemic and institutional.

03:17:48.960 Institutionally, if you don't have power, as in you are not the vast majority in a government

03:17:54.200 and you are not actually trying to remove others from institutional power, then you can't

03:17:58.920 do that, especially if you don't have the power to.

03:18:01.240 But isn't...

03:18:02.040 Wait, wait, wait.

03:18:02.520 Let's just get through the whole thing.

03:18:03.920 Okay.

03:18:04.280 But I think that you can be hostile towards men on the basis that they are men, and that

03:18:08.740 would be hostile racism.

03:18:10.200 And I think that you could be interpersonally sexist towards men on the basis that they

03:18:15.040 are men.

03:18:15.900 And I also think you can have internalized sexist beliefs about men.

03:18:18.720 And then, what about, can black people be racist towards white people?

03:18:21.980 Would it be the same?

03:18:22.560 Basically the same, yeah.

03:18:23.460 And then, it seemed like Andrew wanted to bite on that really quick, but for the top

03:18:28.120 three takes that would trigger Andrew Wilson, what would they be?

03:18:33.440 Top three takes that would trigger Andrew Wilson?

03:18:35.740 I don't know.

03:18:36.300 Humans deserve free will, I guess.

03:18:38.200 I didn't even think that was a triggering...

03:18:39.760 I thought that was a universally accepted statement.

03:18:41.160 Two others, if you have any?

03:18:42.060 Honestly, I kind of like trolling Andrew and trying to piss him off, because I think he

03:18:50.680 does do that to a lot of his guests, and I'm sure that that is annoying.

03:18:54.420 But, you know, it is what it is.

03:18:57.220 Well, let me know when you succeed at it.

03:18:58.860 I don't know, man.

03:18:59.680 You did kind of rage quit there for a minute, but...

03:19:02.340 You mean I went and had a cigarette, and then you went and had a cigarette?

03:19:04.300 You were very upset, and then you left.

03:19:06.480 That, to me, is a rage quit, but okay.

03:19:08.100 You mean you conceded the debate, and I said, okay, I'm going to go have a cigarette?

03:19:11.120 No, you got very, very upset, man.

03:19:12.560 Oh, okay.

03:19:13.020 That sounds like coke from a person who lost the debate, but okay.

03:19:16.180 It sounds like you're kind of lying to yourself, because you don't want to feel emasculated.

03:19:20.020 Okay.

03:19:20.480 So, if I'm a person who every single debate that I do on this podcast, at about an hour

03:19:25.900 to an hour and a half mark, I stop and get up and go have a cigarette, do you think that

03:19:30.200 I'm going to, like, change that behavior because you're here?

03:19:33.440 No.

03:19:33.860 Okay.

03:19:34.200 So, then it would follow that I just got up and went and had a cigarette, because that's

03:19:37.320 what I said I was going to do.

03:19:37.460 I think that the specific timing of when you did that was a bit specific.

03:19:40.620 But anyway.

03:19:41.120 Andrew, you wanted to respond to her position on, like, it sounded like the systemic sexism.

03:19:46.180 Yeah, she would have to, the problem with this is, like, when you're talking about systemic,

03:19:50.440 she very conveniently only points to hierarchical government right at the top and says, well,

03:19:55.880 because that's male, right, at the top, then it can be systemic, but it can't be systemic

03:20:01.620 unless there's at the top echelons of government.

03:20:03.840 And it's like, okay, but what about, like, schools, which are completely inundated with women? 1.00

03:20:08.040 Most of the teachers are women.

03:20:09.680 Most of the institutions are women. 0.87

03:20:11.720 Most of the people participating are women. 0.59

03:20:14.100 Like, overwhelmingly, that's a female institution. 1.00

03:20:16.500 It's like, so can't teachers, at the very least, show sexism towards men?

03:20:22.300 Systemically, if an entire school decided we are not going to hire male teachers, yeah.

03:20:27.140 No, how about, like, just systemically, most of the teachers decide that they're going to

03:20:30.620 institute standards which benefit little girls over little boys?

03:20:34.520 Do they do that currently?

03:20:35.780 Yeah.

03:20:36.540 What standards would you say?

03:20:37.600 Just even things like hold still for long periods of time, be very quiet in class, fold

03:20:42.860 your hand, clasp your hands.

03:20:43.900 When we look at studies for how boys learn versus how girls learn, boys are much more rambunctious,

03:20:48.840 they need breaks for much longer periods of time, rough and tumble play needs to be encouraged,

03:20:53.200 things like that.

03:20:53.980 So schools definitely favor young girls over boys. 0.97

03:20:57.000 Well, I would say part of the reason why you have to sit still and be quiet in class is to

03:21:00.260 maintain class order so that you can learn.

03:21:02.140 And I would also say, as a young girl who's very rambunctious, that that does negatively

03:21:07.040 benefit some female students as well.

03:21:08.400 Well, that's really silly then, because the negative outcome would be on co-ed schools,

03:21:12.220 which is what, well, feminists push for, whereas we used to have sex-segregated schools where 1.00

03:21:17.940 you could teach boys, you know, based on how boys benefit from being taught and girls.

03:21:23.660 Now it's all co-ed.

03:21:24.080 But I'm saying that if I'm a girl who benefits from how boys are being taught, then why would

03:21:28.440 just separating me to a school that is exclusively for girls? 0.99

03:21:30.280 No, we would say, you would get separated to a class with other girls who are like you. 0.94

03:21:34.660 But if the entire group...

03:21:36.020 So you're a segregationist?

03:21:37.120 If the entire...

03:21:37.700 What do you mean?

03:21:38.680 That, how...

03:21:39.120 Is that...

03:21:39.620 Is saying that co-ed schools have worse outcomes than girls or boys only school a segregationist?

03:21:46.840 So what...

03:21:47.700 Like, what do you mean?

03:21:48.340 Answer my question first.

03:21:50.160 You plan on segregating boys and girls and separating them so they're not in the same 1.00

03:21:53.740 schools.

03:21:54.080 Yeah.

03:21:55.220 And you want that universally everywhere.

03:21:57.060 Yeah.

03:21:57.640 But what do parents want their kids to be in classrooms with?

03:21:59.960 Why would they want that?

03:22:01.100 So that they can learn how to socialize with the opposite sex, maybe? 0.94

03:22:03.580 They can learn how to socialize with the opposite sex, like after-school events, various

03:22:07.760 things.

03:22:08.140 Like, if you got sisters, you would go to them the same way that we always did before

03:22:11.960 we had co-ed schools.

03:22:12.460 But not all boys learn the same way and not all girls learn the same way.

03:22:14.780 But inside of those schools, it would be up to those schools to segregate those students

03:22:18.640 who learned in different ways to put them in special education classrooms.

03:22:21.300 Okay, so why not just do that in co-ed classrooms in which you have students who all learn the

03:22:25.320 same regardless of gender be in the same room? 0.85

03:22:27.540 Because of universalization of the rules favoring one sex over the other, which they 0.87

03:22:31.560 do.

03:22:32.300 Okay, but if you had a co-ed classroom in which all students who learned a specific way regardless

03:22:37.440 of their gender were in that room, why not separate them on the basis of learning style 1.00

03:22:41.740 instead of just the basis of sex?

03:22:43.300 Yeah, so if you're asking me, like, why wouldn't we take X amount of these kids and separate 0.83

03:22:48.940 them over here and separate them over there, it would be just a resource issue. 0.98

03:22:52.160 So we're already looking at 5% GDP.

03:22:54.120 If you were to have all-girl schools and all-boy schools, right, and you separated them on the 0.95

03:23:00.560 basis of all-girl, all-boy, you would be able to limit resources and allocate them much

03:23:04.880 better to those genders.

03:23:06.500 Okay, but in public schools...

03:23:08.480 That's public schools.

03:23:09.620 I understand that.

03:23:10.200 So in public schools, there's a certain amount of schools per district.

03:23:13.520 Yeah.

03:23:13.700 If you were going to separate all of those schools, then there would be either double

03:23:17.980 the schools for...

03:23:19.340 Nope.

03:23:19.640 You could use the same amount of resources to double the school.

03:23:24.640 So if it's the case that right now you had a school, which was co-ed, right, you could

03:23:28.980 split that school in half and still make one side boys only, one side girls only, if necessary.

03:23:33.300 That happened many, many, many times.

03:23:35.000 Why not just do it based on learning style instead of...

03:23:37.440 Because, again, you have X amount of resources which are allocated to a group.

03:23:42.540 If you begin to try to relocate every individualistic student into whatever core group you think they

03:23:49.200 might learn best with, ultimately, rather than gender segregate, you know that the core,

03:23:54.220 at least, most of them share, and then pick those, you know, like the problematic kids out

03:23:59.600 of that pool, you're going to save a shitload of resources. 0.84

03:24:02.680 We tried that with black people and it did not very... 1.00

03:24:05.140 We're not talking about segregating based on race.

03:24:07.620 But, I mean, if you're segregating based on sex, what if one group is then funded less?

03:24:11.320 And I want you to think about...

03:24:12.480 So what if, let's say, what if we did do that?

03:24:14.340 And then there was a case in which teachers who were majority female were systemically 0.72

03:24:18.340 discriminating against young boys.

03:24:19.980 Yeah, then you should get rid of those teachers. 1.00

03:24:21.380 And they defunded the schools that were boy only.

03:24:24.740 How would they defund them?

03:24:26.580 Or they choose not to teach those classes.

03:24:28.720 Or they choose to teach those classes in a way that is not actually helpful to young boys.

03:24:32.320 Yeah, you could get teachers in that would do all-male, definitely do all-male classrooms. 0.64

03:24:36.980 They have them right now.

03:24:37.900 And not only that, we always have this, by the way.

03:24:40.360 But see, this is, I think, the issue of what...

03:24:41.380 Hang on, hang on.

03:24:41.940 Let's get into it.

03:24:42.860 So, for instance, let me give you another few core ideas here. 0.90

03:24:47.540 If it is the case that you had sex-segregated schools, do you think sex and sexual intercourse

03:24:52.100 and teenage pregnancy and STDs in schools would go up or down?

03:24:56.720 It depends on how we're teaching sex education in this class. 1.00

03:24:59.060 No, just like, trivially, if there's no women around, they're not going to get pregnant, right? 1.00

03:25:04.060 I don't know.

03:25:04.660 If people want to have sex, they can find the ability to sex.

03:25:06.740 Oh, I see.

03:25:07.420 You know what this is giving?

03:25:08.340 It's giving, like, the number one birth control.

03:25:10.140 So, let me just make sure I get this right.

03:25:12.720 If girls and boys go to different schools, you don't actually think that they would be having underage sex more or less.

03:25:20.460 Do I have that right?

03:25:21.760 I don't think that we can necessarily say if it would be more or less.

03:25:24.720 I mean, are they less horny?

03:25:25.840 So, like, could we?

03:25:27.200 No, they're just as horny, but they just don't have access. 0.99

03:25:30.080 They don't have access.

03:25:31.660 Why don't they have access?

03:25:32.460 Because they're in different schools.

03:25:34.140 But do they not have a phone?

03:25:35.840 How is they? 0.98

03:25:37.160 Even if you have a phone, how do you have the same access you do if Susie's sitting three fucking desks down? 0.99

03:25:43.080 That's insane. 0.98

03:25:43.960 This is, like, a very, this is giving boomer a lot.

03:25:46.260 Are you ever going to respond to the argument?

03:25:49.620 You still have access to them through social media.

03:25:51.140 Oh, my God.

03:25:51.520 Hey, you want to meet up?

03:25:52.260 There you go.

03:25:52.520 And is it easy to meet up with them if you're not in the same school?

03:25:55.920 No.

03:25:56.520 I thought you just wanted to split schools in half.

03:25:58.400 Some.

03:25:58.940 Okay.

03:25:59.160 You could do it for some.

03:26:00.780 Okay.

03:26:00.880 But then for the other ones.

03:26:02.060 Many open campus schools, especially, right, especially high schools, are so large you could split them in half.

03:26:07.080 And it would be like how a lot of high schools are now where you have one here and one just down the road.

03:26:12.860 Okay.

03:26:12.960 And then they'd walk just down the road.

03:26:14.640 And, oh, my God, look. 1.00

03:26:15.420 There's all the bitches. 1.00

03:26:16.020 You still don't have the access for talking to them, for arranging it. 0.99

03:26:20.320 It's not to say that that wouldn't still happen, but it would necessarily reduce that, wouldn't it?

03:26:24.780 Just necessarily.

03:26:25.800 It would be trivially true that if they did not have as much access to each other, the chances that they're having sex is at least trivially going to go down, right?

03:26:33.820 Sure.

03:26:34.040 But why not just increase the level of sex education in this country? 1.00

03:26:36.800 Because we've done nothing but promote sex education in school. 1.00

03:26:41.120 And it has not done anything to reduce the idea of STDs in kids at all.

03:26:45.420 I think that very much depends on the state and the district.

03:26:48.220 I think that very much is in the high school.

03:26:49.240 No, I very much don't think so.

03:26:50.300 We do not have a universal sex education curriculum in this country.

03:26:52.300 And, by the way, let me just ask you, like, this is so...

03:26:53.100 We literally don't have that.

03:26:54.260 This is such a thing that's common sense and drives me crazy with the left because they're so disingenuous about this. 1.00

03:26:59.440 Do you really think, as you tell me, kids are smart and they have smartphones and they're going to fuck if they want to fuck. 1.00

03:27:04.880 They are. 1.00

03:27:05.100 But they're so fucking stupid, they don't understand what sex is. 1.00

03:27:10.060 What? 1.00

03:27:10.700 Are kids so fucking smart that they're going to intelligently bypass your sexually segregated schools in order to find each other to have sex? 1.00

03:27:19.920 But they're so fucking stupid, they don't know what sex is. 1.00

03:27:22.620 No one is claiming kids don't know what sex is. 1.00

03:27:24.580 We're claiming that they don't know how to have sex safely. 1.00

03:27:26.920 Oh, so they're so smart they can do that, but they can't figure out how to put a fucking condom on. 1.00

03:27:31.180 Apparently. 1.00

03:27:31.960 Apparently.

03:27:32.600 I mean, we see it all over the country.

03:27:33.980 Children who do not have access to sex education have a tendency to have more unprotected sex. 1.00

03:27:36.900 So these little fucking MacGyvers are going to figure out how to grab their smartphones and MacGyver out how to fucking navigate to find each other to fuck, 1.00

03:27:43.320 but they're not going to be able to figure out how to slap a condom on. 1.00

03:27:45.280 Andrew, you've never been a child with a phone. 0.99

03:27:47.200 I have, and I can tell you, it's not that hard to find people to fuck if you really want to. 0.99

03:27:51.080 Is it really hard to Google how to put a condom on? 0.99

03:27:53.320 Yes, but a lot of kids just genuinely do not know or do not care. 0.99

03:27:56.260 They're so fucking smart. 0.99

03:27:58.780 And by the way, the idea, too, that religious parents don't instruct their children on what safe sex is is insane. 1.00

03:28:05.640 I didn't say religious parents.

03:28:06.140 I never said that. 0.97

03:28:06.620 And by the way, the other problem that you have here is, again, you're attributing that these people, that these kids have MacGyver-like stealth fucking prowess where they can meet up with each other, 0.95

03:28:16.860 plan all this, coordinate it when they're in sex-segregated schools, but can't figure out how to put on condoms or take birth control. 0.99

03:28:22.000 That's fucking insane. 0.98

03:28:23.140 They should, but it's not even about putting them on. 0.98

03:28:24.820 It's about having access.

03:28:25.840 I didn't know how to have access to birth control until I learned it in school.

03:28:28.160 They still have the same access.

03:28:29.920 They're just in sex-segregated schools.

03:28:31.380 But they just don't know.

03:28:32.400 But that's what I'm saying.

03:28:33.340 You don't have to do all that if the goal is to eliminate unprotected and unsafe sex.

03:28:37.960 Increasing sexual education in schools is not preventing these issues at all.

03:28:42.780 Yes.

03:28:43.140 Especially not when it comes to learning and how the rules favor little girls over little boys.

03:28:47.640 It's not helping with any of that.

03:28:49.460 How is sex ed helping with that?

03:28:52.280 Sex ed so that kids know where to go. 0.89

03:28:54.600 Like, I learned what Planned Parenthood was through sex ed.

03:28:55.640 How is that helping with the bias towards little girls over little boys in school?

03:29:00.000 How?

03:29:00.960 Well, not sex education.

03:29:02.400 Yeah.

03:29:02.700 Are you talking about safe sex or the bias?

03:29:04.100 Yeah, what I'm telling you is that you have additional benefits with sex-segregated schools 0.96

03:29:08.860 on top of the primary benefit of not having favoritism over one sex over the other.

03:29:13.760 Okay, but there are a lot of ways.

03:29:15.220 I feel like one thing that I'm really not loving about your argument is how different you claim

03:29:19.760 girls and boys and men and women are.

03:29:21.880 They are very different.

03:29:22.880 They're not that different.

03:29:23.600 We are 99.9% similar.

03:29:25.760 And how similar are you to a chimpanzee?

03:29:28.580 The same.

03:29:29.780 So are you very different from a chimpanzee?

03:29:32.320 Yeah, but we have multiple chromosomes different than chimpanzees.

03:29:34.960 Wait, wait.

03:29:35.360 I'm sorry.

03:29:35.920 You just said we're 98.

03:29:38.340 I'm sorry.

03:29:38.840 How much?

03:29:39.320 98%?

03:29:40.360 No.

03:29:40.900 99.9% similar.

03:29:42.460 99.9% similar.

03:29:44.260 How genetically similar are we to chimpanzees?

03:29:45.620 Yeah, pull it up.

03:29:46.020 Now I kind of want to know.

03:29:47.120 How genetically similar are human beings to chimpanzees?

03:29:49.360 Are we the same species?

03:29:50.600 Yes or no?

03:29:51.200 Pull it up.

03:29:51.700 Of course not.

03:29:52.120 Of course not.

03:29:52.980 No, I'm not talking about us.

03:29:54.020 Women and women, yes. 1.00

03:29:54.820 Humans and chimps share a surprising 98.8% of their DNA. 0.96

03:29:58.800 98.8% and we're very fucking different, aren't we? 0.84

03:30:04.640 Okay, 99.9% is the difference between one chromosome. 0.61

03:30:09.000 Yeah, but do you understand that if you're 98 or like almost, by the way, that's almost

03:30:14.380 99% similar to like one of your ancestral cousins and you have that much of a stark difference

03:30:20.400 that a 0.1 percentile can mean a huge difference and it does and here's the things that it means

03:30:25.440 a difference in.

03:30:26.180 One sex can reproduce, the other sex cannot. 0.99

03:30:28.800 One has physical characteristics that the other one does not.

03:30:31.660 One has strength advantages, the other one does not.

03:30:34.280 One has emotional problems due to hormone regulation built into the body for reproduction

03:30:40.000 that the other does not.

03:30:41.460 The list goes on and on and on of the distinct differences between males and females and they're

03:30:47.120 huge.

03:30:47.820 I actually wrote down all of the distinct differences between men and women.

03:30:50.800 So, in terms of the physiological, yes, men have denser and stronger bones, they're 34% denser.

03:30:56.760 The difference in average, oh, we have difference in skull shapes and jaw shapes.

03:31:01.240 Men have higher muscle mass percentage than women, which attributes to the strength. 0.94

03:31:05.060 Women have higher body fat percentage. 1.00

03:31:07.900 Men on average are 7% taller.

03:31:09.700 And then mentally, it's mostly hormonal differences.

03:31:11.840 You also, you missed reproduction.

03:31:14.760 Oh, sure, yes.

03:31:15.660 Yeah, women, that's the big one, right? 1.00

03:31:17.400 Women have reproductive capacities, including a uterus, and they have trouble with hormone 1.00

03:31:22.260 regulation due to the fact that they engage in reproduction, right?

03:31:25.500 You know, it's so funny that you say women have trouble with hormone regulation and all 0.62

03:31:27.860 the time I hear how hard it is for men who have testosterone and how hard testosterone is.

03:31:31.180 No, you don't.

03:31:31.740 You don't hear that.

03:31:32.440 It's the fountain of youth for men.

03:31:33.780 It keeps men young, and it helps with their mood.

03:31:36.160 What you'll usually hear about for testosterone in men is that if they have lower testosterone,

03:31:41.520 they have trouble with mood regulation.

03:31:42.920 Okay, yeah.

03:31:43.320 If you're talking about women, though, they have trouble once per month with hormone regulation 1.00

03:31:48.040 due to their reproduction cycle.

03:31:50.160 Sure, but that's not a ridiculously huge difference. 0.99

03:31:52.460 It's a massive difference that 12 times a fucking year, you have significant hormonal issues. 0.97

03:31:57.740 And by the way, other significant hormone issues come up with the use of birth control 0.99

03:32:02.140 and the use of things like this, which are, again, tailored to one sex, the sex that is

03:32:09.260 capable of reproduction.

03:32:10.460 So when you're talking about the distinctions between these sexes, they're way wider than

03:32:15.040 you are pretending they are.

03:32:16.340 Why do you keep trying to separate us?

03:32:17.960 Because we're not the same.

03:32:19.180 We're not the same.

03:32:20.200 We are.

03:32:20.600 We cannot survive without each other, and we are the same species.

03:32:23.780 And these differences are not necessarily negative.

03:32:26.180 Can you tell me, again, how it is that we're not night and day difference when you have

03:32:30.320 one sex who's extremely, who's much stronger than the other?

03:32:33.440 Much.

03:32:33.920 It's significant.

03:32:35.000 I don't know.

03:32:35.380 We both were not able to open that olive can boot.

03:32:37.380 Yeah, yeah. 0.77

03:32:37.740 So anyway, one sex is significantly stronger than the other sex.

03:32:43.360 One sex does not have the same trouble with hormone regulation, does not have a uterus,

03:32:46.880 doesn't even have the same internal organs.

03:32:49.100 Their plumbing doesn't even work the same way.

03:32:51.520 The way they urinate.

03:32:52.240 We don't have the same internal organs.

03:32:53.020 The way they urinate.

03:32:54.020 Other than a uterus. 0.85

03:32:54.780 No, no, no.

03:32:55.520 The way they urinate doesn't work the same way. 0.89

03:32:58.580 The entire sexual plumbing doesn't work the same way.

03:33:01.960 The physiological differences are actually quite wide.

03:33:04.480 All you've mentioned is reproductive organs. 0.98

03:33:06.200 Yes, we all know we have different reproductive organs.

03:33:07.880 Not just reproductive organs.

03:33:09.720 We have different ways in which we engage with the world due to the different types of

03:33:12.920 hormones we have and how they're regulated in our bodies.

03:33:15.380 We even have different brain patterns of how we think.

03:33:17.960 Yes, that's true.

03:33:18.800 But that's not such a horrifically and exclusive and large difference that we should treat each

03:33:23.000 other differently.

03:33:23.560 In many cases, no.

03:33:25.200 And in many cases, yes.

03:33:26.480 So what cases would you say no?

03:33:27.920 I already told you.

03:33:28.720 Like in cases where you have a predominant occupation of one sex over the other, where they have 0.87

03:33:33.240 power over young people, right?

03:33:35.480 And they're in the dominant position.

03:33:37.180 They can only look at it from the preference of that sex.

03:33:39.900 If that's the case, then if you had sex segregation in schools, you would end up having more tailored 0.99

03:33:46.440 education to that particular sex.

03:33:48.160 So can I say, just my issue with all of the things that you're talking about is practical

03:33:51.960 application.

03:33:52.640 It comes down to-

03:33:53.180 That is practical.

03:33:54.040 It's not impractical.

03:33:55.180 But wouldn't it be slightly more practical if we encouraged men to be teachers instead 0.83

03:34:03.020 of having to separate both the sexes, just increasing the amount of male teachers-

03:34:06.780 This is a great point.

03:34:07.600 So that both men and women are teaching.

03:34:08.780 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:34:08.860 This is a great point.

03:34:09.740 Can you explain a phenomenon which happens called male flight?

03:34:13.920 Yeah.

03:34:14.380 Male flight is when a career or profession becomes increasingly female-dominated, and then men 1.00

03:34:20.920 tend to leave that profession.

03:34:22.040 Why?

03:34:22.500 And the pay rates go down.

03:34:23.980 Yeah.

03:34:24.160 Why do they say that they're leaving that profession?

03:34:26.820 I think there's a few reasons.

03:34:28.380 What's the primary reason?

03:34:29.280 I'm not sure, actually.

03:34:30.320 Will you give it to me?

03:34:30.760 Give it a hazard a guess.

03:34:32.900 What do you think it is?

03:34:33.880 Because women are mean? 1.00

03:34:35.580 Well, just hazard a guess.

03:34:37.220 What do you actually think it is?

03:34:41.160 In all honesty, it might just be that they don't want to be- 0.99

03:34:44.320 They don't want to fucking deal with women. 1.00

03:34:46.220 They don't want to deal with the overage of women and the problems which are unique to 1.00

03:34:51.620 them that women don't understand, and vice versa. 0.99

03:34:54.260 Well, then how do you expect to have a wife or a family or female children?

03:35:00.300 Well, it's really interesting, right?

03:35:01.720 If you don't want to deal with women. 1.00

03:35:03.820 Yeah.

03:35:04.040 The difference is that having women have authority over you in a dominated female field is like 1.00

03:35:10.620 hell on earth for men. 0.99

03:35:12.000 Inside of your personal home, where men are generally considered the head of the household,

03:35:16.320 that problem doesn't exist.

03:35:17.620 So men are incapable of working with women if women hold powers? 0.97

03:35:19.800 I didn't say incapable, did I?

03:35:20.980 You just said it was hell on earth.

03:35:21.760 I asked you about the subject-

03:35:23.180 Is it really hell on earth to have a female boss, Andrew? 1.00

03:35:25.840 Not female boss. 1.00

03:35:26.360 That sounds a little bit dramatic.

03:35:27.320 It's when you have a saturated female demographic in a job. 1.00

03:35:32.000 You have male flight. 0.98

03:35:33.720 You said we have male flight, and you hazarded.

03:35:36.000 Your only guess was because they don't like women, basically.

03:35:39.860 Can you actually look up the reasons for male flight?

03:35:42.220 Yeah, look it up. 0.99

03:35:42.960 I mean, that just sounds like bullshit to me. 1.00

03:35:44.660 It's like, oh, I can't have a job because women are here. 1.00

03:35:47.780 I mean, that's crazy.

03:35:48.720 Because they cause unique problems, right, from the perspective of the men who they're

03:35:53.600 in charge of, yes.

03:35:54.140 And you don't think men cause unique problems to women?

03:35:55.960 Perhaps, but here's the thing.

03:35:57.320 Women don't fly away from male-dominated professions. 1.00

03:36:00.800 It's only men who fly away from female-dominated professions. 0.51

03:36:03.640 Well, male-dominated professions tend to make more money. 1.00

03:36:05.200 I mean, that might be part of the financial incentive.

03:36:06.980 Well, no, that's not always the case, especially not with education.

03:36:09.240 I mean, when we're talking about male flight, the phenomenon-

03:36:12.480 Like, let's take nursing, for instance.

03:36:14.700 Nursing is a very highly paid profession.

03:36:16.760 But one of the reasons that they can't get male nurses in is because they don't want 1.00

03:36:20.940 to fucking deal with women. 1.00

03:36:22.580 You say that nursing is a very highly paid profession. 1.00

03:36:24.720 Highly paid, yes.

03:36:25.580 But compared to doctors, which are much more male-dominated, they make significantly more

03:36:30.500 than nurses, despite both having to get similar training and being similar.

03:36:33.300 Are you saying that women have the same access to become doctors as men?

03:36:37.780 In fact, through your ideas of DEI and things like that-

03:36:40.400 Not if we can't go to college.

03:36:41.880 You can still go to college.

03:36:43.280 Well, not if we wait until-

03:36:44.680 Okay, actually, let's go back to your whole, let's wait until after you have kids to go

03:36:47.960 to college.

03:36:48.440 If a woman really wanted to become a doctor, that's four years of college and six years 1.00

03:36:52.760 of medical school.

03:36:53.500 And then a residency.

03:36:54.560 And then a residency.

03:36:55.560 But they're doing the residency as a doctor, basically.

03:36:58.060 Yeah.

03:36:58.360 So that's like, but it's a bound, like, it's a bound, like, what, I want to say 10 years?

03:37:01.600 Yeah, so.

03:37:01.960 Okay, so if you start going to college at 40 after your kids, well, would you say that

03:37:08.420 You would start at, like, 32, 33, probably.

03:37:10.720 And you'd be done about 41, 42, 43.

03:37:12.460 So you'd be involved in a residency while you're raising children.

03:37:14.840 For that particular occupation, yeah.

03:37:16.440 As well as school.

03:37:17.640 Why is that any different than just having a job while you're raising kids?

03:37:20.860 What do you mean?

03:37:22.140 Well, the whole premise is that women would wait until after they've had children to go 1.00

03:37:27.400 to school.

03:37:27.620 Yeah, the point is that.

03:37:28.240 But you also said that women in the workforce, well. 0.99

03:37:30.260 It doesn't split, it doesn't split the attention from the children and the attention on the

03:37:35.400 job.

03:37:35.680 Like, for instance, would you say, especially this example, you picked the worst one.

03:37:39.240 Attention in school does definitely split.

03:37:40.960 Would you say that if a woman wanted to become a doctor and have children, that that would be 1.00

03:37:47.600 considerable in the way of time that she would have to spend working on being a doctor, like

03:37:54.460 a considerable amount of time, especially at a residency.

03:37:57.620 But I'm not against women spending time on their careers while raising children. 0.74

03:38:01.300 Yeah, yeah.

03:38:01.740 But don't you think that that's going to defer attention in a major way from your children?

03:38:06.620 Well, if men are taking care of their children as well. 0.98

03:38:08.060 They're working.

03:38:09.200 But if both partners are working and if both partners are taking care of their kids and

03:38:12.580 their kids are getting equal attention to both parents.

03:38:14.100 No, what's happening is you're just outsourcing care.

03:38:16.020 You're just going to outsource the care from the mother. 0.68

03:38:18.380 You don't have to do that.

03:38:19.260 You do have to do that.

03:38:20.300 How do both parents work, but you don't outsource any care?

03:38:22.840 My parents did it.

03:38:23.800 How?

03:38:24.840 My dad had a more flexible schedule.

03:38:26.780 When my mom was there, she took care of me.

03:38:28.860 When my dad was there, he took care of me.

03:38:29.880 And when nobody was there, who took care of you?

03:38:34.340 I mean, I think they were almost always there.

03:38:36.540 Okay, so then...

03:38:37.320 Unless they went on like a date night, then we had a nanny. 1.00

03:38:38.140 So then they both weren't working full time then.

03:38:40.220 They were both working full time.

03:38:41.200 Okay, so you happen to be in the one unique position...

03:38:44.200 I'm going to school.

03:38:44.800 Where it's so flexible, one parent could always be home with you.

03:38:48.180 Yes, I went to school.

03:38:49.100 That is not the case for the vast majority of people.

03:38:51.300 But you go to school, and your children go to school.

03:38:52.180 They're going for like eight hours a day.

03:38:53.400 So you're outsourcing your care?

03:38:54.840 To school.

03:38:55.820 So if a person starts...

03:38:57.160 Yeah.

03:38:57.580 So if these people start their work day...

03:38:59.600 I thought you were talking about a nanny.

03:39:00.760 Yeah, but even then...

03:39:01.040 You consider school to be outsourcing childcare?

03:39:03.400 Yes, of course.

03:39:05.140 Okay, but it's also like...

03:39:06.840 Like, it's illegal to not provide an education with your children.

03:39:09.380 Yeah, but does school need to be eight, nine hours a day?

03:39:11.440 I mean, it's like eight to three.

03:39:14.760 If we are producing some of the least educated children on planet Earth in any Western nation,

03:39:18.720 is the eight-hour school day really something that's beneficial?

03:39:22.620 The reason it's eight, nine hours is exactly for that, to try to accommodate a two-parent

03:39:27.360 income and be a babysitting apparatus by the state.

03:39:30.540 So what would you advocate as the...

03:39:32.160 Yeah, I would say two hours of school a day is perfectly acceptable.

03:39:35.260 Two hours of school? 0.99

03:39:36.560 Oh, get the fuck out. 0.99

03:39:38.980 Well, I don't know. 0.99

03:39:39.720 How many hours of school a day did you do?

03:39:41.420 What is it?

03:39:41.760 Was it like ten minutes for social studies?

03:39:43.640 Half an hour for math?

03:39:44.180 No, no, no.

03:39:44.640 You don't do subjects like that.

03:39:46.600 People don't learn like that.

03:39:47.640 So what do we do?

03:39:48.020 We do farming?

03:39:48.780 No, you would do months on just math or months on just reading, writing, and arithmetic.

03:39:53.200 You don't have to split the studies.

03:39:54.960 So you do two hours a day, a month of each subject.

03:39:57.700 Sure.

03:39:58.740 Why?

03:39:59.460 Because people's minds, especially young minds, are tailored much better when you're trying

03:40:04.580 to learn detailed things like this with having, you know, an hour or two and then a lot of

03:40:09.500 play time and a lot of unlearning and a lot of things like that.

03:40:12.260 Kids actually do a lot better.

03:40:13.580 Yeah, they unlearn things.

03:40:14.460 So you're learning things for two hours and then you spend the rest of the day unlearning

03:40:16.880 what you just learned?

03:40:17.540 No, not unlearning what you just learned.

03:40:19.340 You would be unlearning other things.

03:40:22.500 Like what?

03:40:23.400 Like bad habits that you'd have.

03:40:24.800 Like you can't take the cookie out of the cookie jar because you get your hand smacked.

03:40:27.920 By the way, it's 716 and he's calling me now.

03:40:30.760 Hey, Bun.

03:40:31.340 Um, you want to come up?

03:40:35.180 Do you mind grabbing my boyfriend for me?

03:40:38.620 Yeah, we're going to close out now.

03:40:40.520 Okay.

03:40:41.780 All right.

03:40:42.300 See you in a sec.

03:40:44.380 Love you.

03:40:45.120 Bye.

03:40:45.500 But just real quick, I got this last question.

03:40:47.280 Sure.

03:40:47.580 How is it that you, you went to school and had hours and hours and hours and hours and

03:40:51.020 hours and hours and hours and hours of learning, right?

03:40:53.460 Yes.

03:40:53.880 Okay, great.

03:40:54.440 How did you think that millions of people died on the Trail of Tears then?

03:40:57.260 They were forcibly removed from their conversation.

03:41:01.200 You thought millions of people died on the Trail of Tears.

03:41:04.080 I guess all those hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of history really didn't

03:41:07.600 sink in too well.

03:41:08.420 Well, I mean, learning complex thought and reading comprehension doesn't just mean like

03:41:12.340 real memorization.

03:41:13.040 Most kids can read.

03:41:13.440 I got a number wrong.

03:41:14.540 Yeah.

03:41:14.740 Like Andrew, come.

03:41:15.260 And here's the thing, right, is like, if you're, especially when you're talking about

03:41:18.740 reading and literacy, homeschool kids outperform public school kids.

03:41:23.120 Oh, it's not even in the same universe.

03:41:25.520 And usually most of those curriculums, hour to a day.

03:41:28.160 What is your source on that one?

03:41:29.380 Oh, I can pull up a ton.

03:41:30.980 Homeschooling has become one of the biggest alternative and most studied alternatives since

03:41:34.320 COVID-19 because of the lockdowns.

03:41:36.500 I have a pretty cool documentary about homeschooling.

03:41:38.480 Do you guys want to do a mini close?

03:41:41.180 You each get like a final one or two minutes.

03:41:43.520 Well, I'll just make it super easy.

03:41:45.580 Or we'll let her go first.

03:41:47.560 Then you finish.

03:41:48.460 So go ahead.

03:41:48.960 If you want to do a one to two minute close, then you, then we're out.

03:41:52.700 Okay. 0.69

03:41:53.080 I mean, I just think a lot of what we just talked about is objectively a little bit ridiculous.

03:41:57.380 I don't understand why you would segregate children and massively increase or decrease

03:42:04.320 the hours that kids are in schools.

03:42:05.860 And now women don't work. 1.00

03:42:07.140 And now all of these things.

03:42:08.020 It sounds like you want to turn society upside down, which, you know, good for you.

03:42:12.700 But I would advocate that it's better to, it's not completely broken, but it's not, like

03:42:21.660 if you understand, like the system we live in is not completely broken to the point where

03:42:25.500 you have to completely and radically destroy it and create an alternative that has no practical

03:42:33.120 application at all.

03:42:35.460 Like we've never done that.

03:42:36.600 We've never done segregated schools for two hours a day.

03:42:43.240 Really?

03:42:44.140 When did we nationally have public schools that were two hours a day separated by gender?

03:42:49.700 It's your clothes.

03:42:51.260 Okay.

03:42:52.280 Yeah.

03:42:52.860 I mean, to me, this just seems unrealistic.

03:42:54.800 It seems unnecessary and it doesn't seem like it's really benefiting other one, anyone,

03:42:59.900 but you, I guess.

03:43:01.940 And I don't understand why you would advocate for such impossibly impractical things other

03:43:11.160 than to sell your debate course.

03:43:15.020 You should have taken it.

03:43:16.200 So what's interesting is like your entire closing statement, just a giant fallacy.

03:43:21.800 It was just an appeal to incredulity.

03:43:23.260 It's just like, I just think it's like really like impractical and like stuff.

03:43:27.640 Well, it doesn't make sense.

03:43:28.480 It is impractical.

03:43:28.840 Did I interrupt your clothes once?

03:43:30.180 No.

03:43:30.640 No.

03:43:31.160 You just, I just like think like it's impractical and stuff.

03:43:34.720 It's like, well, that's not an argument for anything.

03:43:36.880 And you can see it on all the descriptive points that I give for these problems.

03:43:40.640 You say, I just don't like the prescriptions.

03:43:42.560 That's fair.

03:43:43.200 You can criticize the prescriptions.

03:43:44.580 But when I ask what the criticism of the prescription is, it's just like, ah, well,

03:43:48.700 like I just like think maybe it won't like work or, or, or whatnot.

03:43:52.240 Or you know what?

03:43:52.980 We've never done this before.

03:43:54.320 We have, we never had sex segregated schools.

03:43:56.580 We did.

03:43:57.320 They only, they never only lasted a couple hours a day.

03:43:59.620 They most certainly did.

03:44:01.440 Like if we go back through history and you look at what local schools used to be.

03:44:05.680 Yeah.

03:44:05.940 They, they didn't take very long.

03:44:07.320 There was one single school master.

03:44:08.720 These were in much smaller towns.

03:44:10.020 The tailoring, by the way, if you look at what an eighth grade education was like a

03:44:14.120 hundred years ago, it's the equivalent of a college education today.

03:44:16.740 And the literacy rate was through the roof in comparison to what it is now.

03:44:20.320 It's not even the same universe.

03:44:22.360 If you go back even to the twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, it's not even in the same

03:44:27.380 universe.

03:44:28.280 When you're talking about co-ed schools, there's all sorts of disadvantages, which include sex,

03:44:34.760 which include, uh, STD rates, which include now revenge corn, which include all sorts of

03:44:40.920 things, which now technology has enabled.

03:44:43.500 And it's like, you can deal with a lot of those problems, especially with how kids are

03:44:47.060 related to by female teachers when they're young men by segregating out the sexes in school. 1.00

03:44:52.600 It's a great idea.

03:44:54.480 Most everybody does it, at least if they have a brain and it works great.

03:44:59.200 You keep separating us and sending us backwards.

03:45:01.400 It's, uh, the closings are done.

03:45:02.980 You don't want to, you want to argue after the close?

03:45:04.980 It's weird, man.

03:45:05.900 I'm sorry that I have prescriptions and I have arguments other than weird.

03:45:09.580 I mean, if you guys want to continue the conversation, but it, you know, it's like weird, man.

03:45:18.040 Like everyone should just get together and like, and sing Kumbaya, man.

03:45:21.280 No, we shouldn't just get together and sing Kumbaya, but we should try and advance the society

03:45:24.540 instead of trying to do things that we already did.

03:45:27.320 Well, great job.

03:45:28.000 Thousands of years ago.

03:45:28.600 The literacy rate's doing real well.

03:45:30.080 Good job advancing society.

03:45:32.080 The literacy rate is not doing bad because of feminism, Andrew. 0.96

03:45:35.440 Get over yourself.

03:45:36.400 Like this is not true.

03:45:36.780 What is it doing bad because?

03:45:39.560 Why?

03:45:40.420 How can you attribute it to feminism? 1.00

03:45:41.700 I asked you a question.

03:45:42.600 Why is it doing bad?

03:45:44.000 The literacy rate in this country is largely failing because the public education system.

03:45:47.860 Which is full of women teaching. 0.84

03:45:49.760 Is incredibly underfunded and inherently.

03:45:52.080 Five percent of our GDP more than any other nation is underfunded.

03:45:55.760 It is underfunded and we continue to overfunding.

03:45:59.120 But that's by district.

03:46:00.300 It's the most overfunded, underfunded thing in the planet.

03:46:04.160 It's by district.

03:46:05.440 It's not funded by the federal government.

03:46:08.460 And they get the same amount for districts.

03:46:09.780 Public schools are.

03:46:10.580 Yes.

03:46:11.320 No, they don't.

03:46:12.060 Yes, they do. 1.00

03:46:12.860 No, the fuck. 1.00

03:46:13.360 They don't bullshit. 1.00

03:46:14.340 Public schools are funded by property taxes, which depends on the district you live in. 0.92

03:46:17.900 You get paid by the head for federal funding.

03:46:21.500 Federal funding.

03:46:22.660 Yes.

03:46:23.100 But public schools do not receive the majority of their funding through federal funding.

03:46:29.520 Yes, they do.

03:46:30.760 No, they don't.

03:46:31.480 Yes, they do.

03:46:32.540 No, they don't.

03:46:34.360 Yay.

03:46:35.440 All right.

03:46:36.280 Here's what we can do.

03:46:37.380 If you guys are both open to it, we'll do a round two at some future date.

03:46:42.940 Would you be interested in doing a second conversation?

03:46:46.040 Hit me up.

03:46:46.760 It depends on when I'm coming back.

03:46:49.040 Sure, sure, sure, sure.

03:46:50.040 Well, we can always discuss it.

03:46:51.780 I want to thank both of you very much for participating in this discussion, in this debate.

03:46:57.820 Thank you guys so much.

03:46:58.980 Gigi.

03:47:00.420 Well played.

03:47:01.760 To the viewers, to the debaters.

03:47:05.480 Last call, please hit the like button on your way out.

03:47:08.080 Thank you for tuning in tonight.

03:47:08.980 You could have been anywhere in the world, but you were here with us.

03:47:11.740 I appreciate that.

03:47:12.540 Thank you to everyone who super chats, donates, and supports the show.

03:47:16.300 Our next Dating Talk podcast will be live Sunday, 5 p.m. Pacific.

03:47:22.680 I want to see 07s in the chat.

03:47:25.100 07s in the chat.

03:47:26.380 Let me just double check, make sure we're not screwing over like any last minute chatters that came through.

03:47:30.860 Unfortunately, guys, we do got to wrap.

03:47:32.300 I see some super chats, but we got to wrap it up here.

03:47:35.440 I'll let Z come in, and then we're wrapped.

03:47:38.500 Z donated $200.

03:47:40.380 Thank you, Z.

03:47:41.060 Andrew is correct.

03:47:42.080 I was also homeschooled myself.

03:47:44.980 Homeschooled kids graduate college more compared to co-ed schools.

03:47:48.780 67% to 53%.

03:47:51.080 They also are socially and emotionally better since they aren't bullied.

03:47:54.900 Correct, and they don't have to worry about revenge corn. 1.00

03:47:57.060 They don't have to worry about the negative aspects of socialization, absent adult supervision for hours and hours at a time.

03:48:03.980 They also don't have to worry about the positive aspects of socialization either.

03:48:06.860 No, they still get the positive aspects of socialization.

03:48:09.240 You know, you can go to most after-school programs if you're homeschooled, even if you don't go to that school.

03:48:15.620 All right.

03:48:16.780 07s in the chat, guys.

03:48:17.880 Not everyone has the financial ability to homeschool their kids.

03:48:20.080 07s.

03:48:20.560 People literally have to go to work.

03:48:21.180 Thanks to feminism. 1.00

03:48:23.200 07s in the chat.

03:48:23.500 Thanks to capitalism.

03:48:24.860 Thanks to feminism. 1.00

03:48:25.820 You're blaming feminism for capitalism. 1.00

03:48:26.240 Stay tuned for round two.

03:48:27.760 Stay tuned for round two.

03:48:29.360 07s in the chat.

03:48:30.300 Good night, guys.

03:48:30.820 We'll see you next time.

03:48:32.180 Amen.

03:48:32.440 Thank you.

03:48:33.400 Thank you.

03:48:33.820 Thank you.

03:48:34.520 Thank you.

03:48:34.700 Thank you.

03:48:36.480 Thank you.

03:48:46.160 Thank you.

03:48:52.440 Thank you.

03:48:55.980 Thank you.

03:48:57.040 Thank you.

03:48:57.420 Thank you.

03:48:57.520 Thank you.

03:48:59.020 Thank you.

03:48:59.620 Thank you.

03:49:00.700 Thank you.

Whatever Podcast - May 21, 2025

Andrew Wilson vs. Naima (Feminist, Leftist, Anti-Trump) ｜ Whatever Debates #20

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