Whatever Podcast - Andrew Wilson vs. Naima HEATED Debate Round 2

00:00:00.000 welcome to a debate edition of the whatever podcast coming to you live from santa barbara

00:00:17.080 california i'm your host and moderator brian atlas a few quick announcements this podcast

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00:00:27.280 slash whatever we're going to have q a questions or if you want to leave a statement for 200 dollars

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00:00:44.420 without further ado i'm joined today by andrew wilson host of the crucible he is a blood sports

00:00:52.980 debater and a political commentator also joining us today is naima she's a senior at usc

00:01:01.160 she's a political social commentator and content creator

00:01:05.700 the topic today is feminism and we might hit some other topics too i want a good clean debate

00:01:15.100 no interrupting i will issue a verbal warning followed by a yellow card

00:01:22.360 which you cede conversational priority for one minute or until your opponent yields followed by a

00:01:32.180 red card which results in ceding conversational priority for two minutes or until the non-affringing

00:01:41.080 a fringing offending party uh yields their time there will be no opening statements straight into

00:01:48.180 open convo let's get let's get on yeah i mean we were we were just discussing i think it's funny me

00:01:54.340 and andrew were actually supposed to do a jubilee surrounded debate um for our kind of part two of

00:02:01.520 this conversation but what ended up happening now i don't work for julie i'm not going to speak for

00:02:07.340 their administration but i think the general consensus do you know what the like theme of

00:02:14.100 the video was supposed to be uh feminism no so well like the people who were surrounded it was supposed

00:02:20.080 to be like jubilee all-stars so it was like surrounded jubilee all-stars and so of course we all know each

00:02:26.540 other because like you know it's all the people who've been in jubilee videos before and i think the

00:02:32.500 general consensus was that we wanted to debate someone bigger to be honest with you so that's why

00:02:37.300 they brought in charlie kirk and he actually was assassinated like i want to say a week before we

00:02:44.300 were supposed to do that debate so i don't know it yeah it got completely canceled they like rescheduled

00:02:51.740 it and now we don't know who it's going to be damn yeah i know it was pretty intense it was weird

00:02:56.740 the debate was actually scheduled for the day of his memorial so you guys all said no to me

00:03:01.660 i don't think it was no sounds like you were saying no yeah i mean it was kind of no yeah

00:03:08.400 okay i mean not a lot of people really know about the crucible i mean a lot more people your crucible

00:03:14.580 a lot more people know well yeah actually tell me the names of the people and let's see if they do

00:03:19.560 know about the crucible who are the names of the jubilee all-stars i mean i'm not speaking on behalf of

00:03:25.100 anyone i know but what are the names of the jubilee all-stars who would have been there um i mean

00:03:30.720 lots of people parker dean oh so yeah parker knows me well dean knows me well who else yeah we're not

00:03:36.580 talking about us of course we all know people in the well i thought you just said nobody i thought

00:03:40.820 you just said nobody knows the crucible andrew i'm talking about the world the audience everyone

00:03:45.960 in a political sphere of course knows each other we're all in an insular community but outside of

00:03:51.740 you know this community do you think you're as big as charlie kirk no of course not

00:03:55.100 but okay who is candace owens ben shapiro i mean candace owens wasn't bigger no i don't think

00:04:01.720 any of them were bigger than charlie kirk nick crowder nick crowder well i mean they're all bigger

00:04:05.780 than who the hell is nick crowder isn't he that guy who does the podcast where he's all mean i don't

00:04:12.280 know that's kind of all you guys do you mean steven crowder oh yeah no uh charlie kirk is definitely

00:04:18.560 bigger than all of them sorry i'm not a huge fan of steven crowder's content no i mean were you a big

00:04:23.260 fan of any of their content no but everyone knew about them yeah so i understand no i get it um

00:04:29.480 i mean i know andrew it sucks to hear that but they but they had reached out to me not me to them

00:04:33.420 so yeah um i mean i guess i guess i don't know um you know i've debated most of those people in the

00:04:41.180 political circles on places like pierce morgan i've never seen you there well that was kind of

00:04:44.960 part of it yeah i actually got invited to pierce morgan i didn't do it because they asked me like

00:04:48.180 20 minutes how come you how come well now we're speaking about this how come you canceled on tim

00:04:52.800 pool oh i canceled on tim pool because i got a brand deal that was paying me more and i didn't

00:04:57.300 have to leave my house actually i can talk about the tim pool thing yeah because he said that you

00:05:03.020 agreed you agreed to come on and then canceled okay so it's very interesting that you say that

00:05:07.920 when i met with tim pool's team they were not willing to pay me to travel across the country

00:05:13.600 to debate well you're going to take care of your flight hotel that's not paying me though that's

00:05:18.220 paying for my flight they would have had to do that for anyone and they also were not they didn't know

00:05:22.680 who i was supposed to debate yet so i told them i will agree to do a debate so long as i know who

00:05:29.840 i'm debating and i accept the terms of that debate has jubilee paid you yeah of course they paid me

00:05:34.520 what do they pay you that's not your business well they pay 25 for gas right no they pay me more than

00:05:39.820 to show up for the surrounded of course well that's interesting because they don't pay any

00:05:43.720 of the conservatives who show up for the surroundings well that's a shame they should

00:05:46.720 advocate for themselves just so you guys know now we know this that they pay the conservatives 25 bucks

00:05:51.620 to show up but they actually pay the progressives i don't think they pay all the progressives i don't

00:05:56.300 like i'm not every single yeah i make them pretty good content i mean you don't think it's fair for

00:06:02.500 people to get paid for good work i mean i guess that's that's fine i just think it's funny it's

00:06:08.280 interesting that the conservatives who are in the surrounded when i first started doing the jubilee

00:06:12.440 videos i didn't get paid and then the more and more successful i was on their platform the more

00:06:16.300 they offered me that's generally how it works it's almost like a promotion i understand that's how

00:06:20.340 most jobs work i get it okay cool yeah so leftists refuse leftists like parker and dean and you guys

00:06:25.860 refuse to debate with me because you're not big enough and you don't have a fan base you're bigger

00:06:29.980 than i'm bigger than all of you no you're not way bigger than all of you we can go follower for

00:06:34.840 how many followers do you have on instagram right now instagram's not a fight you could take your

00:06:38.760 top off and get 800 000 followers but i didn't take my top off i got 150 000 and so what that's

00:06:45.180 nothing how many do you have then i have over 250k just on youtube with an average live audience of

00:06:51.080 seven to nine thousand what about you how badly you have to prove when you when you go live look at

00:06:56.520 how fragile you are just because i told you nobody wanted when you go when you go live how many live

00:07:01.080 viewers do you get i don't go live you don't go live no when if you did go live how many would

00:07:06.180 you do you think you'd get i don't know i don't go live oh interesting all right well i do a lot

00:07:12.620 better than dean and parker when i go live on youtube and they do so i think that's debatable

00:07:17.540 i'd say dean and parker have a significantly bigger following across platforms adam rockler all of these

00:07:22.500 people are bigger than you i don't think so and you look at how badly you have to defend yourself

00:07:26.420 worth this is so sad you're the one who attacked it i'm not attacking it i'm telling you what i'm

00:07:30.920 giving you nobody wanted to debate you because it's an all-star jubilee because we want an all-star

00:07:34.880 guys we're all cowards i mean listen to this you guys were just all cowards we're not cowards if i

00:07:40.320 was dean and parker tell me why dean and parker won't actually agree i've i've said i'd give them

00:07:45.300 twenty thousand dollars to show up and do a debate live so they can't get fed answers from their little

00:07:50.640 teams andrew if i was a coward i wouldn't be debating you right now they refuse the point was it was an

00:07:56.160 all-stars debate and you are not an all-star adversary gotcha you're right i mean i am you

00:08:01.780 didn't get big but you're here so anyway i'm ready i'm ready when you are all-star okie dokie so go

00:08:08.260 ahead with your criticisms of my worldview you're not a jubilee all-star aren't we starting with

00:08:12.060 democracy or no whatever you want to start with okay andrew let's uh why why don't we start with

00:08:17.700 unless you want to get into the criticisms of his specific positions i would rather go through all of

00:08:24.260 the our positions and then do criticisms and then andrew before we get into the prompts

00:08:28.860 i as i understood it you wanted to respond to some of naima's specific criticisms from that you saw

00:08:36.480 online or we can do that as we go do it as okay criticism that i saw online sure i didn't post

00:08:42.000 anything about you online oh yeah you did i made a tick tock i have clips a singular tick tock i know but

00:08:47.540 you lied a lot in it i lied in it andrew it's all based on a debate we did together i know we were both

00:08:52.720 here which is why i have all the counter clips for it andrew i literally posted a video of you

00:08:57.040 not being able to open a pickle jar what's your counter for that i did open the pickle jar you didn't

00:09:01.420 open an olive jar so they're not a pickle jar then did you open the olive jar no no and why did

00:09:07.100 you say it was that you are supposed to be but why did you say that wasn't any point that was ever

00:09:11.200 made you lied that not the point of force no no and by the way um you said it was greasy you said

00:09:20.160 the jar was greasy why didn't you tell people that yeah you did you said the jar was greasy

00:09:23.860 so did you so did you remember do you want to pull up the video of him being incapable of opening

00:09:28.620 you want to pull up the video of you being incapable of opening it andrew i never said i was going to be

00:09:32.920 the point is though it's like it's really funny to me you want to pull up the sorry yeah so the thing

00:09:40.820 is the thing is it's funny is like you did though you did say yeah it's greasy and then you just omitted

00:09:45.660 all that i said it's not greasy nope you didn't promise will you just hang on hang on i got a

00:09:51.180 thousand bucks in my backpack right now that i'll bet you that you said it was greasy when you were

00:09:56.220 asked i'll put it on the table right now put my money where my mouth is i'm not really a betting

00:09:59.960 yeah so you're not really sure if you lied about it or not why would it be a lie well because i think

00:10:05.240 that there was intentionality behind it so you got drugged what you're trying to say is that you were

00:10:09.920 incapable of opening that olive jar because it was greasy even though you dried it off with several

00:10:14.720 paper towels your t-shirt and then your assistant was able to open it despite how greasy but you

00:10:20.240 couldn't andrew you and brian either could brian but the point was it was an attempt to

00:10:25.760 but the point was and it was an attempt to emasculate me and show how weak i am and it turns out that

00:10:30.740 you are just as weak how would that demonstrate that i was weaker than you because neither of us

00:10:36.060 could open do you want to arm wrestle no not why it's just ridiculous it's the most ridiculous

00:10:41.420 shit ever and it has nothing to do with force you're so pressed about it you just couldn't

00:10:45.500 open an olive jar man get over it okay bro i'm just telling you that you couldn't open it have

00:10:50.280 gone out of your way to lie over and over about my position gone out of your way to lie dude your

00:10:54.360 name is not in my mouth i don't give a fuck about you saying that you lie a lot about my positions i

00:10:58.740 played a clip of you what okay but i'm gonna play clips that'll show the lies about my positions

00:11:04.620 i made one video about that specific moment lied a lot about my positions you said things like

00:11:11.820 this man wants to uh get rid of women's rights and you said all sorts of things you said that no i

00:11:16.620 didn't yes you did no i didn't and i just watched her debate back yes the fuck you did okay tell me

00:11:21.600 my positions and what is force doctrine force doctrine is that whole theory that might makes

00:11:26.400 right essentially it is more okay then why don't you define your no you have to tell listen first you

00:11:31.120 can't criticize a position unless you can stay stably tell me what you think the position means

00:11:36.200 before you criticize it so what is it what's for your prescription your position is descriptive so

00:11:40.500 do you want to define your terms before we argue on whether i want to know what you think force

00:11:45.620 doctrine is because you're critical of it how can you be critical of a position you can't define

00:11:50.440 i mean i think force doctrine is generally the belief that those who are stronger physically are

00:11:58.420 able to defend their rights no no no okay then explain it to me andrew yeah force doctrine

00:12:05.580 is the critical belief that rights come to women specifically from men that women always have to

00:12:13.100 appeal to men for the rights collectively okay so do you believe that anybody has like inherent

00:12:18.760 rights that there are any inherent human rights regardless unless you can ground them in god i don't

00:12:23.000 believe that you can ground rights in anything and if you can go ahead and do so okay so then

00:12:27.060 based on your religion what are the inherent rights that humans well first i need you to understand

00:12:31.960 what the criticism is so um when i say to you i don't believe that you can ground rights absent

00:12:38.900 religion do you agree that that's true or false i believe that that's false okay then can you ground

00:12:45.040 rights for me absent religion do you not know what rights are can you ground them absent religion go

00:12:51.280 ahead grounding rights absent of religion i mean there's natural law there's humanistic theories on

00:12:56.520 well i don't i don't know which one are you going to go with but go with one of them okay well let's

00:13:00.780 see which one would you prefer we could do humanistic theory we could do deontological i literally

00:13:08.320 don't give a shit i just want you to ground rights outside of uh outside of god

00:13:13.420 nick you gotta send me okay continue guys continue with the debate i guess what do you mean ground

00:13:36.000 rights do you mean justify human rights i mean this when i say ground rights um what are you appealing

00:13:46.820 to let's just make it easy what are you appealing to for rights morality okay that can either be

00:13:54.640 morality through religion or that can be morality through natural law that can be morality through a

00:14:00.180 social contract i'm not interested in all that can be morality through creating an egalitarian society

00:14:05.500 not interested at all in possibilities i'm interested in the one that you have these aren't

00:14:11.260 possible can you tell me what all of them i just want to know what you ground rights in i ground rights

00:14:17.340 in morality

00:14:18.620 rights are moral it is just and moral to give people basic rights what do you ground morality in

00:14:27.600 are you going to keep asking me or are you going to actually like make an opinion this is what you do

00:14:33.000 andrew you ask questions and questions and questions so that you don't actually have to form an opinion

00:14:37.360 and defend it that's great stop using descriptive arguments what do you ground make an opinion

00:14:41.900 what do you ground morality do you believe that humans have inherent morality do you believe that humans

00:14:46.360 have inherent value we can't go anywhere with the debate unless you can tell me what you ground

00:14:50.060 morals in so do you exclusively ground morals in your belief in god i've already said five times yes

00:14:55.960 now i need to know what you ground hold on hold on listen to me if god did not exist i'm not interested

00:15:01.780 would there be zero morals not interested until you tell me what you ground morality in tell me what

00:15:06.720 you ground morality in i don't even understand why you're asking this question okay so you are you

00:15:12.100 you said i asked you do you believe that rights can be grounded outside of god you said yes so i'm

00:15:18.500 asking what they're grounded in outside of god social order what does that mean it means creating a society

00:15:25.740 that functions you if no humans have rights and you can't function as a society everyone would just be

00:15:31.080 attacking each other all the time so you would have a society that functioned no you would have an

00:15:36.620 anarchic society if there is no social order what would make that unfunctional you just it would be

00:15:41.320 something i mean no one could collaborate with each other everyone would be constantly killing each

00:15:45.500 other and maiming each other and raping but do you see how you're just making an appeal that morality

00:15:49.580 just is preference based just fits your preference it's not preference based it's a necessity it's a

00:15:54.840 human necessity it's not it's not necessary for you to have rights necessary for survival

00:15:58.860 the right to life the right to life yes the right to life is necessary for survival you think that

00:16:05.460 there's a right to life yes of course i believe there's a right to life okay and what do you ground

00:16:09.620 that in i ground that in our ability to survive as a species if nobody had a right to life then what

00:16:16.320 would stop brian from just shooting up everyone in this room force our society could not function

00:16:22.560 based solely on force then how come society would all just be beating each other up how come societies

00:16:27.680 right now do societies don't exist solely on force we have tons of other forms of power that exist

00:16:33.980 in society do you agree with me that there are societies which function purely on force

00:16:37.900 yeah and they suck name a singular one that exists that is like fun to live in do you see how

00:16:43.460 now you're changing the goalposts so i'm not changing the goalposts i'm trying to create a

00:16:47.740 remember how we weren't talking about interruptions can i at least make the point you've interrupted me

00:16:50.860 like five times since we started yeah okay well so anyway where you switch the goalpost here was you

00:16:55.980 said that societies cannot exist they can't exist absent rights and that my contention here is that

00:17:02.900 they can they can exist just via force eventually hang on hang on let me make the point let me make

00:17:08.620 the point they can exist absent rights and you say that rights are necessary for societies to exist

00:17:14.980 clearly that's not true i can point to you right now societies where they don't have rights name a

00:17:19.960 singular society where no human has any rights that exist north korea at anything you have that's a

00:17:25.920 right comes from the state they still have a right to life no there's no right to life they take

00:17:29.880 out in a field and shoot you if you look at them why don't you go live in north korea is that an

00:17:34.340 argument would you like to go is that an argument andrew is that an argument are you arguing in favor

00:17:39.280 of north korea you think the north korean government structure is fun a vibe like why would anyone want

00:17:47.740 to go there what does that have to do with anything i just said because it's not a sustainable

00:17:53.140 society okay but it's a society that perpetuates human let's try this again no one has any free will

00:17:58.700 i know that why don't you so as we're doing as we're doing as we're doing the obfuscation here

00:18:03.800 i just want to point this out i asked you uh how you ground rights you said rights exist absent

00:18:09.920 preference and i said okay if they exist absent preference uh can't how come i can point it well

00:18:16.520 you said you have to have rights for there to even be a society i can point to a society where humans

00:18:21.140 have no rights and clearly that's a society so i don't i don't understand how how it is that you

00:18:27.920 think that you can't have societies which exist without rights and you still haven't given me

00:18:32.080 accounting for where rights come from and so it's it's critical i gave you my opinion about forced

00:18:37.380 doctrine i told you what i think about rights so do you hang on and so i told you what i think about

00:18:42.060 rights right now we're just clarifying the language so you can't do the fallacy of equivocation i don't

00:18:48.500 want you to move between separate definitions of a word using vagueness which is fallacious so fallacious

00:18:52.980 debate move i want you instead to be very clear on what rights are what you ground them in where

00:18:59.120 they come from and that's what we're debating about if we're talking about rights so please do so we're

00:19:03.980 not debating about that we're debating about forced doctrine the morality of forced doctrine do you

00:19:08.440 believe that forced doctrine is moral do you believe that it is moral to take rights away from people

00:19:13.380 on the basis this is pure obfuscation in coercive power this is pure obfuscation i do think it's fair

00:19:20.040 for you to answer his it is i think honestly andrew my issue with i don't care about anything you're

00:19:25.400 about to say just want to know if you don't care about anything that i'm about to say then why

00:19:29.860 where are where do rights come from i believe that humans have natural rights i believe that

00:19:34.280 okay natural rights yes okay so natural right theory is what nala believe or i'm sorry not nala what is

00:19:40.520 it naima sorry natural rights okay i don't think they have to be ordained by god i believe that

00:19:47.240 everyone has an inherent set of rights they're inherent yes natural inherent these are synonyms

00:19:52.540 so where do they come from they come from our existence what do you mean it's a right it's not

00:19:57.880 a physical thing like you get that right no no can you explain it for me no well the right to life

00:20:05.500 yeah life comes from being alive so what do you mean where does it come from where does life come from

00:20:11.580 no life comes from when a man and a woman are in love and they hold hands for a very long time

00:20:17.060 they can make a baby that's where life comes from so these natural rights that you claim that we have

00:20:23.000 which are inherent if they're inherent does that mean that um everybody has them yes i believe everyone

00:20:28.980 has them but they can be infringed upon and that is immoral i see that is the definition in my opinion

00:20:35.200 of morality is infringing on one's natural rights so you're born with rights yes so they're not social

00:20:41.120 constructs that we make up they exist outside of that well i mean it's not a physical thing oh it's

00:20:48.480 not well i'm gonna i'll tell you a couple of terms objective and then subjective objective means

00:20:55.040 that it does not depend on the mind an example is that tree out there would exist if there was no

00:21:01.860 i know what objective and subjective means then tell me what subjective means subjective is something that

00:21:05.900 is malleable it can change it's not a fact no subjective no philosophical subjectivity just

00:21:11.740 means uh depends on the mind okay so that's exactly what i just said no it's not yeah so anyway back to

00:21:17.000 this though um i was trying to give you the example so i could clarify the position i want to try to have

00:21:21.920 a good faith debate i don't know why you refuse to clarify your positions for me i just clarified my

00:21:26.060 position okay so now clarify so is it so so are rights subjective i believe rights are subjective

00:21:31.720 across society then how can they be inherent i believe that certain rights are inherent and

00:21:35.620 certain are subjective okay so how so i mean there's no limit on how many rights a human can

00:21:39.960 which inherent rights are objective which inherent rights are objective i think the right to life

00:21:44.420 is objective okay so then if it if it's objective and it does not depend on human minds where can we

00:21:49.380 find it we can find it in being alive what the fuck are you talking about where can you find the

00:21:54.620 right to life absent the grounding in in meaning all minds are gone remember i told you objective

00:22:02.340 means you don't need any human minds i tried to explain this to you a second ago now you just walked

00:22:08.440 into a horrible trap uh objective means does not depend on a mind what you said just got done telling

00:22:15.920 me is that you have an inherent right to life and it's objective that would mean that that right does not

00:22:20.900 does not require human minds so you should be able to point to where it is where is it andrew

00:22:27.340 rights are not physical though not everything that is objective is physical okay then what is

00:22:33.940 everything that's objective if it's not physical well you just defined it what you just what are you

00:22:40.580 talking about objective objective means it requires or does not require human minds honestly this is

00:22:50.400 philosophical objectivity requires minds put that in no don't put requires minds just put

00:22:55.880 definition i'll do for both of you thank you so objectivity the quality of being okay the quality

00:23:01.740 of being objective thank you marym webster yeah you have to put philosophical philosophical objectivity

00:23:08.320 requires minds okay that way we can clarify it let's just do a basic definition of objectivity

00:23:13.360 and work off of that so objective not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and

00:23:21.260 representing facts thank you yeah but a fact would have to be material not all facts are material

00:23:28.920 andrew which ones i mean air air exists and currently material actually yeah okay yeah i'll give you

00:23:37.320 that one oh god okay so we have inherent rights that aren't material but they're objective andrew

00:23:45.220 there are immaterial facts do you genuinely not believe that what i mean thoughts like humans have

00:23:53.080 thoughts thoughts are not material where do they do thoughts come from something material but a thought

00:23:58.320 is not material do you believe that a thought is material how do you know when you have thoughts to

00:24:02.240 steam rise out of your fucking head how do you how do you know thoughts not material how do you know

00:24:06.000 thoughts are well the thing is what thought that you've had is material you would ground a thought

00:24:10.320 in a brain right yeah but a brain and a thought are two different yeah so you would agree with me that

00:24:16.120 if there was no more brains there would be no more thoughts well your brain creates thoughts so without

00:24:22.320 but a thought is your so without are you really trying to argue that there is a material thought

00:24:28.640 oh i'm gonna tell you what the fuck are you talking about i'm gonna tell you so that you understand

00:24:33.180 do you agree with me that if we have no more brains we have no more thoughts sure okay great then what

00:24:40.120 that means is that you're appealing to something material for for thought okay but it's still

00:24:46.160 immaterial okay well hang on hang on the the trick here is to understand that when i say objective

00:24:52.400 right sure it means it doesn't depend on a mind when i say subjective it means it means it does

00:25:00.700 depending hang on i want to be very clear sure it means that it does so when i say where do rights

00:25:08.000 come from you say rights are objective that means they exist somewhere outside of minds so can you tell

00:25:13.160 me where no i'm not saying that objectivity needs to exist physically i think that things can be

00:25:21.300 objective without existing physically but why don't you give an opinion on your actual belief because

00:25:27.360 right now i'm just trying to figure out what the terms are for rights themselves so we don't

00:25:31.640 equivocate do you not know what rights are i don't know what you think they are what are they

00:25:35.920 i just told you well you just told me that they're objective but then you don't give me any grounding

00:25:40.920 for certain rights are objective okay where did they are objective and grounded in human morality

00:25:48.120 which can be based on a god as you do or which can be based on our conception of natural law is he does

00:25:56.560 human morality require a mind sure well then it can't be objective yes it can because objective

00:26:03.740 things can be immaterial you don't know what objective means you're using one definition you found

00:26:10.660 can you repeat the definition that you there is a sub definition to not dependent on the mind for

00:26:16.140 existence actual i'll repeat i'll repeat hers though will you stop of of a person in the mic and

00:26:22.060 stop doing this you're coping so bad you're so dumb you know i can't believe you did this so bad

00:26:29.280 oh go ahead of a person or their judgment not influenced by personal feelings or opinions and

00:26:35.300 considering and representing facts also andrew did you want me to look up something or i just want to

00:26:41.740 know if if rights are objective and they don't depend on minds can you please tell me where i

00:26:47.940 could find them andrew how could you visit there are things that exist that are not physical i'm not

00:26:52.840 talking about whatever you think exists it's not physical there is no limited number i just want to

00:26:57.180 know about rights right now just right immaterial do you understand that it's a concept do you know

00:27:02.680 what a concept is do concepts require minds sure and then it then rights then where's in your mind

00:27:08.440 then where's it then where's it so then they're not objective but something can exist in your mind

00:27:12.640 but are we talking about something are we talking about rights so do you not think that people have

00:27:17.140 an objective right to life like what are you arguing right now i'm just trying to get to

00:27:22.540 go ahead you're arguing on a definition because you don't want to actually have to defend

00:27:29.360 your opinion why would i ever in a million years be required to defend rights if you can't even

00:27:38.520 fucking tell me what they are i just did yeah but i just pointed out all the incoherency with what

00:27:44.500 you just said it's totally incoherent it's completely incoherent rights are the immaterial concept

00:27:51.300 that humans deserve certain i wouldn't say benefits but i guess like

00:27:59.840 actually what is a good word for that not benefits entitlements yes i'll take entitlements

00:28:05.800 i like that one got it and they're so so they're subjective they're not objective so do you not

00:28:10.900 believe that anyone has any it's not i'm asking you to i want you to define a belief make a statement

00:28:16.880 that's great right now we're just trying to figure out what rights are are they subjective or not

00:28:21.840 i think that certain rights are not subjective okay can you demonstrate the rights that are not

00:28:29.040 subjective i think that rights can be infringed upon but can you tell me the rights that aren't subjective

00:28:34.320 i think that the right to life is not subjective okay so i've just said it like eight times so the

00:28:42.240 right this right which exists for life that doesn't require human minds well everything requires human

00:28:50.060 minds then it can't be objective everything is subjective

00:28:53.380 wait a second you're so right so from your view everything that's a right would be subjective

00:29:03.400 i think that everything that exists would be subjective at that point okay anything that comes

00:29:08.960 from our minds and doesn't exist in the natural world would be subjective okay so then rights are

00:29:13.540 subjective meaning they're it's just concepts that we make up i don't think that rights are concepts

00:29:20.120 that we make up i'm sorry i just don't i mean maybe you don't believe humans have rights but i do

00:29:26.800 okay then we'll flesh it out again so do you think if it's the case that rights oh god andrew do you

00:29:33.600 think this is listen do you understand that what you're saying here is so fucking incoherent it's

00:29:39.200 so incoherent i can't even have the conversation andrew do you have your own definition of rights

00:29:43.800 why don't you give it well first first you can't say to me i'm giving you some incoherent gobbledygook

00:29:50.720 it's not incoherent i'm going to show you i'm going to demonstrate how it is oh my god so we start

00:29:54.780 with this objective versus subjective you agree with me that objective right means does not require my

00:30:02.100 hang on does not require minds subjective means does require minds you continue and then you got

00:30:07.580 done telling me hey man everything is subjective and these concepts are subjective by that metric

00:30:13.840 okay great but you still believe that there's rights which are objective like the right to life

00:30:19.180 but then can't tell me how it's subjective i think that the right which hang on which means that we're

00:30:23.620 now in either a a performative contradiction or you're just giving me incoherent babble all right

00:30:29.320 andrew i believe that the right to life is objectively moral how about that does that

00:30:33.820 make more sense to you and since you want me to define rights so bad let me just take the merriam

00:30:38.120 webster definition so we can move on and actually have a conversation about opinions rights are legal

00:30:42.860 social or ethical principles of freedom and entitlement okay will you take that are those subjective or

00:30:48.580 objective though the definition of rights is our agreed upon definition no no what's in the definition

00:30:53.960 of rights is that objective or subjective well they come from the mind so i based on your description

00:30:59.720 i would say subjective okay now do you hang on no no no i'm not done speaking and you've had a long

00:31:05.480 turn to speak and i would like to ask you a question you can ask whatever do you believe

00:31:09.580 that there are any inherent legal social or ethical principles of freedom of a freedom or

00:31:17.000 entitlement that all humans deserve not objectively now you don't think that there's anything that all

00:31:22.240 humans deserve not on a moral basis do you think it would be immoral not objectively so you think

00:31:26.760 it's completely moral not objective to infringe on anyone's rights no i'm just saying that that

00:31:31.760 objectively no but i'm not asking about whether or not it's objective or subjective i'm asking about

00:31:35.740 your opinion you don't understand that you believe that there are any rights that everyone has

00:31:40.780 that are morally unacceptable to infringe not objectively i don't care about objectivity i care

00:31:47.160 about your fucking opinion give me an opinion we're in this objective do you have a

00:31:52.080 single opinion give me an opinion come up with an opinion okay so i just want to make sure that

00:31:57.100 we can you're dancing around it you're obfuscating yes you are because you don't want to have to

00:32:01.400 give an opinion i'm literally making sure we don't i can argue against i'm literally making sure we

00:32:05.100 don't obfuscate you asked me to define rights i did i accepted yeah but the thing is now what is

00:32:10.000 your opinion i just want to clarify to make sure that we get this right so you don't believe that

00:32:16.020 there are any objective rights right i believe that the right to life is an objective right but we can

00:32:21.280 disagree on it if you want to then we're back to incoherent world no we're not andrew you just

00:32:25.320 don't andrew will you answer the question i've answered i can't i don't even know what you mean

00:32:29.460 by rights and andrew i just defined right no listen are you not listening you can't you can't

00:32:34.720 give me he's not listening to me did you not understand what i said do you want me to repeat

00:32:37.400 it yeah repeat it okay so rights are legal social or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement

00:32:43.720 do you understand what that means and are those subjective oh my god what is up with you and

00:32:49.260 subjectivity the reason the reason i'm just trying to get a coherent okay so let's say

00:32:53.500 that they are subjective for the sake of moving this conversation along okay so all rights are

00:32:57.000 subjective what right so it's the right to life subjective i'm not asking whether or not it's

00:33:01.440 i'm asking so i can get a fucking coherent answer i'm not asking whether or not it's objective i'm

00:33:05.760 asking whether or not you think i'm asking you listen right now do you think that humans deserve

00:33:10.360 a right to life calm down all we're doing right now is i'm just trying to make sure

00:33:13.840 that you and i have a definition of rights just it's taking you like an hour to understand this

00:33:19.300 definition can we move on because you don't understand how you don't understand how bad

00:33:22.860 this is you're so afraid to make an opinion what's wrong with you man just say something you do this

00:33:27.620 all day yeah i'm gonna do it until we get to some kind of coherent okay some kind of coherent

00:33:32.600 non-contradictory definition of right you are so afraid to just give an opinion on i'm not going to

00:33:38.080 i'm not going to grant fallacious arguments i'm not going to grant fallacious definitions i'm not

00:33:42.900 going to do it with you that rights are subjective now okay so then so then the right to life is

00:33:47.700 subjective do you believe just answer the question is the right to life subjective sure do you believe

00:33:52.200 we deserve oh my god thank god so all rights are subjective got it okay so now that we've agreed

00:33:56.260 that all rights are subjective do you believe that there are any rights that all humans inherently

00:34:01.580 deserve not objectively but morality based on your personal morality i'm not asking you about

00:34:08.340 objectivity or subjectivity i'm asking you about your personal morality sure do you think

00:34:12.760 that there are any rights that all humans deserve no they're all subjective but just because

00:34:19.960 something is subjective doesn't mean that's not a like a moral opinion i'm asking it is a moral

00:34:25.860 opinion no i'm asking for your opinion based on your ethical and moral framework so for me

00:34:30.420 i would say that uh you have god-given rights sure right but i think you can't ground rights

00:34:36.600 so i don't know how you get to have a conversation with me about rights when you just think rights

00:34:40.420 or opinions so you're grounding rights exclusively in the authority of god i don't think they can be

00:34:44.480 grounded outside of that because they're just uh you're saying that they're just a sequence of

00:34:48.880 preferences but we can't talk to god you're just saying they're a series of preferences

00:34:52.420 that's all the right is no do you want me to define it a fourth time if it's subjective what could it

00:34:58.400 be other than a preference legal social or ethical principle of freedom or entitlement do you think

00:35:05.080 that subjectively and morally there is anything that humans are entitled to subjectively no

00:35:12.460 okay morally do you think that there is any right what do you okay now we're getting somewhere

00:35:18.140 morally what do you believe are the rights that humans are entitled to i think that we well if

00:35:24.240 you're going to ground rights and ground them in god then i would say that like the ten commandments

00:35:28.360 would give us some certain rights that would be necessary like a necessary entailments okay

00:35:33.420 so morally i would ground those are all uh can you actually pull up the ten commandments for me

00:35:39.440 um so the ten commandments are all of the essentially all the human rights that we no i'm just saying

00:35:44.920 that those are an example of what we can ground in god there's other ones too there's additional

00:35:49.080 believe our inherent human rights i just gave you a list you haven't given me any that's it

00:35:53.040 just the ten commandments well i would say that those can be grounded as an example of what can be

00:35:57.340 grounded as a moral objective right god is subjective so why are you grounding it in the

00:36:01.860 subjective again if god is subjective god is subjective then all rights are subjective

00:36:06.980 then how would i be on a lesser playing field than you even if those rights were subjective if i believed

00:36:14.080 in them and you believed in subjective rights also so what you're saying is you need to ground your

00:36:18.520 rights in something objective and the objective thing that you chose to ground them in is god

00:36:23.520 which isn't objective wait wait i'm sorry that's i'm very confused here help me out

00:36:27.680 if if uh my preferences align with god's preferences okay if i'm like let's just say that i'm a subjective

00:36:35.680 anti-realist or a christian anti-realist so i believe that there are rights right they align with god's

00:36:41.740 preferences and my preferences align with god's preferences okay great um how would that give you

00:36:47.600 any higher standing considering that all rights are grounded subjectively from your perspective

00:36:53.020 yes which would mean they're all just preferences but god is also subjective andrew why would that

00:36:58.280 matter because you're saying that every all of my rights are only grounded in subjectivity and but

00:37:03.740 here my rights are also only grounded in subjectivity exactly actually that's my point okay so if that's

00:37:08.440 the case then we have established that you have no moral high ground for making any prescription

00:37:13.800 on rights because you're just saying their preferences we do have a moral high ground

00:37:17.820 though rights are not preferences we've already defined how are they not preferences then rights

00:37:22.560 are not preferences okay then what are they you think the right to life is like the preference to

00:37:26.280 be what else could it be if it's subjective what do you mean what else could it be if subjectivity

00:37:30.800 requires a mind then what else could a right be other than your preference for a thing

00:37:34.560 what else could it be it's a principle no and it's your preference to follow that principle

00:37:40.200 well it's guided by our human morality and that's your preference to follow those morals

00:37:44.240 sure so then it's all just guided by preference okay but how do you define whether something's

00:37:48.180 moral or immoral we would just use preferences that doesn't work but that's the only way you're

00:37:54.160 doing it right now but what if everyone on earth decided we prefer if we have one group of

00:37:59.320 people that we enslave would you then say that slavery is moral exactly so you believe that

00:38:03.400 slavery is moral well it wouldn't be a belief of slavery being justifying slavery no no no it's

00:38:08.000 the opposite slavery is moral do you think that repeating the question as though that's going to

00:38:13.180 help you with this well you just did that no i'm expressing i'm expressing to you i'm repeating what

00:38:17.460 you said back to you to make sure you realize how ridiculous i'm going to show you how it's not you

00:38:21.640 ready tell me how slavery is immoral except or absent preference it's causing human suffering and

00:38:29.520 it's your preference that we don't cause that so you don't think it's immoral is it your preference

00:38:35.000 we don't cause human suffering i asked you my personal preference so i'm asking you how do we

00:38:38.920 ground a right that humans shouldn't be slaves absent collective human preference including yours

00:38:44.640 how well i think it's inherent i think that there are certain rights that you know

00:38:49.500 it's inherent yes i believe that there are inherent human rights that violate the basic principles of

00:38:56.780 morality

00:38:57.380 oh my god this is so funny you can cringe all you want you're the cringiest for i can't believe you

00:39:04.620 just said that you just said all rights are subjective right they're only grounded in preference

00:39:09.440 but they're also inherent no i believe that there are inherent human rights okay i believe our society

00:39:14.220 would not function if we didn't have inherent human rights okay what is inherent literally would not

00:39:17.720 like if if it was immoral not to kill each other what if we all decided to just maim each other how

00:39:21.960 would we survive as a species so it's our preference it's the proliferation of our species that would all be

00:39:27.180 a preference so you want us to go extinct what the fuck are you talking about you prefer that the

00:39:33.840 human species i'm telling you that you that all everything that you're talking about right now

00:39:37.780 is just a set of human preferences okay so if that's the case can you ground why it would be

00:39:45.680 that slavery would be immoral outside of human preference well you're causing suffering yes but

00:39:52.400 that's just a preference again it's just a preference not to cause suffering so do you believe that

00:39:56.720 there's any definition of morality like can we can you actually do you want to just look at the

00:40:00.680 definition of morality since we can't agree on a single definition i mean andrew what are you are

00:40:05.060 you defending slavery what the fuck are you talking about right now dude it sounds like you're defending

00:40:10.180 slavery for what purpose i really don't understand i know you don't understand yeah because why on earth

00:40:16.780 would anyone defend slavery nobody did you did just now never happened why are you acting like we

00:40:24.360 weren't just in the middle of a conversation in which you were defending slavery that never happened

00:40:28.260 you just made it up are you trying to gaslight me because it's not only not trying to gaslight you

00:40:32.260 but the opposite is happening i'm defending slavery can you tell me how i defended slavery you just said

00:40:38.140 that if everyone wanted so like rights are based on subjective human preferences so if everyone

00:40:43.880 preferred slavery it would be moral yeah you just said morality is justified by human i'll tell you what

00:40:49.660 and if you can ground how morality is not grounded by anything other than preference i can't wait to

00:40:57.480 hear it

00:40:58.060 to end the proliferation of human suffering and progress as a society that's a preference those

00:41:06.200 are preferences everything's a fucking preference right so if it's just preference right you're just

00:41:12.240 saying that collectively people have a preference to not make other people slaves and that's what morality

00:41:17.580 is is it's a shared set of preferences then if i say enslavement is just a shared set of preferences

00:41:22.940 how can you claim that's immoral so you don't believe that there's anything that's morally good

00:41:26.940 or morally bad inherently no matter what if everyone wanted to do it it's still morally bad i'm

00:41:32.160 demonstrating every single person wanted to just like kill the shit out of a baby

00:41:35.920 i'm demonstrating to you that that's an entailment of what you moral there is an inherent

00:41:41.900 definition of morality what is why is your sense of morality preference based because if you don't

00:41:50.600 ground your your preferences or something like this in something which is an unchanging standard for

00:41:58.420 morality in other words it's changing just based on preference right you would need to give me some

00:42:03.440 way to ground this where it's unchanging that would demonstrate for me that slavery is only is inherently

00:42:11.760 immoral in some faucet other than collective preference but even when we were existed in a

00:42:18.740 society that collectively endorsed slavery it was still immoral do you not believe that like do you

00:42:23.360 not believe what made it i'm asking you what made it immoral the concepts of good and bad do you not

00:42:29.220 believe that there is any inherent definition of good and bad is it just based on personal preference

00:42:34.680 i think that from your view it would be yes no i think that from your view then ground it

00:42:40.400 outside of preference go ahead fine will you pull up the definition of freaking morality since we're

00:42:45.820 only going to argue on descriptors today because andrew's afraid to give an opinion we can't get past

00:42:50.620 the descriptors because you won't give me anything coherent andrew why don't you like agree that there

00:42:56.340 is a very basic like there is an inherent goodness and badness do you not believe that on a base level

00:43:02.400 you can't justify that from your view and if you can't justify it from your view i don't need to

00:43:07.880 accept the definition of good or bad so justify it first all right i believe that if something is

00:43:12.240 good when it perpetuates um wait no sorry i believe something is bad when it perpetuates and

00:43:16.560 proliferates human suffering that's a preference so andrew do you just not believe in the concept of

00:43:23.340 morality don't you understand when when you're having a debate when you're actually having a debate

00:43:29.860 and you're asking a person to give a definition of the thing the actual thing in question here

00:43:36.060 and i ask you what is morality if we're having a moral based argument in this case we are because

00:43:42.380 we're talking about rights and i say okay tell me what rights are and you incoherently babble about

00:43:48.660 how they're both objective and subjective they're they're inherent and they're not inherent they're social

00:43:54.040 constructs and they're not social constructs i don't even know what the fuck you're talking about

00:43:57.820 it's just babble so then hang on here i'll define them one more time rights are a legal social or

00:44:03.260 ethical principle of freedom or entitlement and out of those preferences a principle following a

00:44:11.020 principle it could be someone's preference it could not be well yeah right so what does it matter if

00:44:17.180 it's a preference why are you stuck on the concept because if it's the case because i'm looking for the

00:44:21.400 case of equivalency if it's the case that you think that you have a morals which are better than mine

00:44:27.260 or gooder than mine i don't think they're better than yours because you haven't shared yours or

00:44:31.740 gooder than mine or great or whatever or gooder than anybody's or gooder than anything or good or

00:44:37.820 the goodiest of all things uh then you would need to demonstrate for me that rights are more than

00:44:46.000 simply preferences of people to invent social constructs that they think might be beneficial to

00:44:52.300 themselves if that is the case then if i have preferences against that and they're shared

00:44:57.700 collectively with other people you would have to demonstrate why those preferences are inferior to

00:45:03.660 your own because they're both preferences so andrew how do you define morality like how do you define

00:45:09.240 morality if you don't want to keep dealing with my stupid opinions on the basic definitions of words

00:45:16.060 that you know we both understand how do we don't both understand okay then give me your definition

00:45:20.640 how do you why does my definition help your definition because you refuse to agree to my

00:45:25.520 definition i'm not going to until you give me a coherent one you don't want to give an opinion

00:45:28.880 you are so afraid of sharing we're gonna start first with something that's coherent define

00:45:32.880 morality it doesn't matter you have to give me a coherent definition of right i'm not gonna give

00:45:36.620 you that then we can't go anywhere with rights unless you tell me what they are it's an incoherent

00:45:41.520 definition andrew it's the definition that is generally agreed upon by merriam-webster and oxford

00:45:47.160 dictionary that is the definition of rights it is literally the definition of right and are they

00:45:51.740 preferences who gives a fuck i give a fuck what is morality preferences you think the morality is

00:45:59.340 solely based on personal preference yes so something is morally good if you want to do it yes that's what

00:46:05.580 you believe yes what else could it be so if you wanted to punch brian in the face you really really

00:46:10.580 wanted to just punch brian in the face sorry to use you in this yeah but if you really wanted to you

00:46:15.220 believe that that would be a morally justified act for me yes okay so if someone really wouldn't be

00:46:19.980 for him because he has a different set of preferences you see okay uh-huh so you define

00:46:24.500 morale so then what happens in that how do we decide if it's moral or immoral through collectivization

00:46:28.900 so every like so your definition of morality is based solely on the collective will

00:46:34.360 that's it well not solely based on the collective will okay so then what else is it based on collective

00:46:38.740 preferences collective preferences so if collectively we all decided that we wanted to commit a genocide

00:46:44.140 against i don't know let's say germany the entire country of germany kill all the millions of people

00:46:48.440 that were there every single person in america agreed to do that you believe that that would be

00:46:52.000 morally justified well if it was the so let's say there were more people in america than there are

00:46:55.880 in germany so their preference is to not get genocided but there's less of them right and our preference

00:47:00.580 is to genocide germany and there's more of us so collectively that preference is larger you would

00:47:05.360 morally justify that action i think that if it was preference-based morality it would be justified right

00:47:09.460 so you believe in preference-based morality so you're going to justify slavery genocide all of

00:47:14.860 those things you just morally justified yeah all of these horrific actions i'm going to tell you the

00:47:18.460 greatest i'm going to tell you the greatest thing in the world and you just completely defeated your

00:47:23.100 own argument that is what your morality is no that's what your morality is we're basing it off

00:47:28.320 of your grounded on anything other than preference if you disagree with me i don't believe them or i think

00:47:33.060 that they're like i think morality is about what is good and bad and i think what is good and bad

00:47:37.600 other than preferences

00:47:38.480 i'd say good and bad i mean why uh uh whatever what is good just justified what is good or bad

00:47:51.120 other than preferences i would say something is good if it is beneficial uh-huh to the world

00:48:00.220 so preferences again no when you say something's beneficial to the world mutually beneficial isn't

00:48:07.000 that just things which align with people's preferences yes they happen to but it's not

00:48:13.700 based on the preference what is it based on the preference is based on it do you understand that no we

00:48:18.840 prefer things that are good to the world but things that are good to the world are not good to

00:48:23.500 the world just because we prefer them okay then what makes them good to the world what makes them

00:48:27.300 good to the world is if it like disincentivizes harm in human suffering or animal that sounds very

00:48:32.560 preference based again to me it's not preference so then tell me how these how someone could have

00:48:37.280 a preference that they want the world to suffer and cause harm but it doesn't mean that actions that

00:48:43.260 disincentivize suffering are somehow now immoral you got to help me out here then uh your definition

00:48:47.620 so how fluid so how inherently can an action be good or bad outside of a human mind and preference

00:48:55.560 well because we can see the physical consequences of the not outside of a human mind yes the fuck we

00:49:02.260 can if you punch brian in the face we could all see that that would exist outside human minds would

00:49:07.280 see that no shit i didn't know okay but it still exists objectively in space it wouldn't because it

00:49:12.800 would require a mind and an observer what the fuck what kind of if a tree falls ass argument is this

00:49:17.600 it's not an if a tree falls ass argument in the face it's objective you objectively just did that

00:49:22.500 like what are you talking about man what makes it immoral other than your preference your subjective

00:49:28.760 preference no it makes it immoral is that you perpetuated human suffering yeah but human suffering

00:49:33.040 requires minds you see what i'm saying so like what i'm asking you is this sure if an action is truly

00:49:39.120 good or truly bad how does that work that an action is good or bad on its own absent a human's

00:49:45.460 preference it's consequence an action can be good i mean there's multiple definitions but an action

00:49:53.520 can be good or bad based on intent and consequence okay i'm gonna i'll try it i'll try this again

00:49:59.340 if thing good how thing good outside preference consequence the consequence of the action and people

00:50:06.540 have a preference for consequences they don't want they don't want consequence you're using the

00:50:12.680 preference as what is prescribing the morality it is what's prescribing the morality i don't think

00:50:16.800 morality is inherently based on human preference then what's it based on i think morality is based

00:50:20.960 on whether or not it proliferates human suffering that's really any kind of that's just grounded

00:50:26.860 again in preference no it's grounded in consequences and you prefer not to have those consequences

00:50:31.140 the consequence of human suffering yeah then that would be preference-based morality it's not

00:50:35.680 preference-based morality because my preference doesn't influence its morality it's the only thing

00:50:40.080 i had the preference okay then then what other than what other than human preference would influence

00:50:46.640 morality consequence and intent i just said it that's all you saying preference no but the preference is

00:50:53.920 based on the consequence oh yeah okay so wait let me get this right based on but the morality of an

00:51:00.160 action is not based on my preference towards the consequence okay so imagine morality of an action is

00:51:04.580 based on the objective consequence so imagine you have 20 people and they all like i don't know they

00:51:10.500 beat a kid to death right and there's just you there's just you who sees this and you're the 21st

00:51:16.800 person right it's only 21 of you on planet earth you see these 20 kids and they beat a kid to death

00:51:22.540 yes okay did all of them do something wrong yes okay if you didn't exist what would make that action

00:51:28.440 wrong it would make that action wrong because it proliferated human suffering the consequence was the

00:51:32.420 death of a child which i believe is inherently morally wrong you have denied that child the right

00:51:36.640 to life you have infringed upon its rights so when i asked you consequence of the action whether or not

00:51:41.260 they agree with that so if you're not there what makes it morally wrong you said because i think it's

00:51:46.780 morally wrong but you're not there i said you're not there the right to life that's what made it morally

00:51:53.220 wrong andrew i see and you have a preference against that right i happen to okay but that's besides so can

00:52:00.160 you ground how that's bad absent your preference they denied a child their right yeah and you prefer

00:52:06.860 that they didn't that's not the point it is the very point no it's not then tell me even if i didn't

00:52:14.160 exist and didn't have a preference that would still be immoral then you're saying human suffering and

00:52:19.300 denying a child the right to life is immoral then what that would mean why are you advocating in favor

00:52:23.760 what that would mean is that that morality that is objectively true even absent minds observing it

00:52:31.620 right okay got it so it's objectively true that even without minds if somebody got beaten to death

00:52:39.360 uh that would be immoral yes okay can you tell me then how you ground that it's immoral other than

00:52:47.960 restating the thing itself as being immoral i just told you it's immoral because you denied a child

00:52:54.160 the right to life yeah but that's just you repeating the claim do you understand like if i say

00:52:58.400 murdering that guy's wrong and i and you say why is it wrong and i say because murdering people is wrong

00:53:02.800 that's not giving a justification you caused human suffering that's why it's yeah but why is causing

00:53:07.540 human suffering immoral so you don't think i'm asking you a question why is causing human suffering

00:53:12.960 immoral absent preference why because it's wait causing human suffering is immoral because because

00:53:20.160 you are denying them their inherent rights given by god or by you don't believe in god how do you know

00:53:26.560 you said so no i didn't when did i say so you do believe in god so rights come from god a christian

00:53:31.160 and i don't believe that all of our inherent rights come from god but i do believe well then we're okay so

00:53:36.260 all these the rights that don't come from god morality is not based on my belief in god is what i'm saying

00:53:40.660 okay got it so then what would make the the action immoral you say because the action's immoral

00:53:46.320 no okay well then what makes it immoral perpetuating human suffering and what makes that immoral the

00:53:50.600 consequence of the and what makes that immoral other than your preference what what makes it

00:53:54.980 immoral is that you're killing the species i mean yeah that's just restating it again it's a

00:53:58.740 consequence so it's a consequence of the action makes let me show you what what keeps happening i say

00:54:04.000 why is killing that person wrong and you say it's wrong because he's killing that person and i say what

00:54:07.900 outside of that i say what outside of your preference makes that wrong you say because

00:54:11.880 he's killing okay we'll try it again what makes it wrong to perpetuate human suffering absent your

00:54:17.700 preference the consequence of human suffering and what makes that consequence wrong absent your

00:54:24.840 preference absent of my preference it's the perpetuation of human suffering you're see how

00:54:29.600 it's circular do you understand now it's totally circular done with my sentence okay go ahead if you're

00:54:34.620 going to interrupt me in the middle of my sentence okay oh you're right go ahead thank you thank you

00:54:38.080 okay wait where was i go back to your question yeah so the question is what makes an action immoral

00:54:43.100 absent your preference i think an action is immoral if it infringes on the natural rights of an

00:54:50.140 individual and perpetuates human suffering i understand that you believe that and that's

00:54:55.360 your preference what makes it wrong absent your preference well definitely not god

00:55:00.240 what makes it wrong but i believe that they're like do you not believe that's your preference

00:55:06.000 that's your preference sure it's my preference so what makes it wrong you keep saying more

00:55:10.340 objective truth are like just because my preference happens to agree with that okay so then tell me why

00:55:15.860 it's wrong absent your preference because i believe there's a like objective definition of right

00:55:20.180 and wrong that's your preference again okay andrew then why do you believe it's why does it

00:55:24.720 what does that have to do with the what does me believing that that fucking tv right there's off when

00:55:29.780 it's on have to do with your definition of this wait that's a red herring hold on for my bingo oh

00:55:36.220 my god that's not a red herring i'm literally trying to stay on topic right here hold on where's

00:55:41.480 can you ground morality outside of your preference or not boom can you ground morality outside of your

00:55:46.700 preference or not you keep on saying it's wrong because it's wrong because it's wrong because it's

00:55:49.820 grounded morality and natural rights i've already done this now what are natural rights other than your

00:55:53.780 preference what are natural rights other than my preference well my preferences happen to align with our

00:55:58.080 definition of natural rights so your natural rights are just your preference no then what are

00:56:02.200 they natural rights are the right to life the right to liberty and honestly the pursuit of

00:56:05.580 happiness and what gives you those rights other than people's preferences it's not people's

00:56:10.300 preferences that well it's not people's preferences that give you those rights it's just that we are

00:56:14.420 all naturally deserve them the right like just being alive is what gives you those rights i

00:56:20.560 believe that all humans who are birthed into those this world have a natural right to life

00:56:25.880 liberty and the pursuit of happiness that's a preference constitutional founders would agree

00:56:29.500 with me do you realize that's a preference sure but what the fuck does that matter it matters because

00:56:33.500 if you're you keep on claiming over and over again rights aren't preferences and everything you give

00:56:38.420 me is just a preference for a right anytime i ask you what's if you have good whatever you think good

00:56:44.780 is what is it outside of what you prefer andrew all you want to do is have a descriptive argument i want

00:56:52.100 to actually hear your listen the semantics are important to the debate dude yes dude what time is

00:56:57.620 it uh 4 50 i'll sit here all day and do this i'm telling you right now we're not moving past this

00:57:02.720 until you can give me the grounded claim it's pointless it's no it's the most pointed you're just

00:57:08.700 trying to evade because you are afraid of voices all you have to do is tell me how you ground rights

00:57:14.120 outside of your preferences because you keep saying they're not your preferences you are the one who

00:57:17.360 grounded rights and preferences and that was your justification for fucking slavery you

00:57:20.440 disagreed though yes don't tell me how you ground them outside of preference it's natural law

00:57:25.840 and what is natural law other than a set of preferences natural law i mean it's a concept

00:57:32.460 that there are inherent rights that every human deserves based on the fact that they're alive

00:57:37.140 okay which is objective we are alive objectively unless the whole thing is a simulation okay so you're

00:57:43.460 alive sure you believe people have a right to be alive yes that's a preference right

00:57:50.300 it happens to be my preference yes there are people who disagree with me okay and and is that

00:57:55.100 because of their preference yes so then what are rights so are they wait wait hold on so question

00:58:00.480 are they morally justified to kill others if their preference is to kill your worldview yes

00:58:05.360 because rights are just preferences you're the one who believes in a preferential worldview andrew

00:58:09.580 so do you know do you believe in it there is an inherent definition of right and wrong good and

00:58:15.240 okay then give it to me what makes the thing good other than a set of preferences i believe that

00:58:20.140 something is good i've already said this do it again going no actually no don't fucking tell me what

00:58:25.400 to do man okay uh change the prompt i think i think not i think listen i'm gonna tell you this

00:58:31.280 no because all you want to do let me make the case debate because you're afraid of let me your

00:58:35.280 opinion let me make the case doesn't make any yeah let me make the case so the case is this okay she

00:58:40.900 wants to have a debate and she claims it's good faith on forced doctrine which is a a descriptor

00:58:46.560 about rights when i ask her if rights or preferences give her her own worldview back to her right when i

00:58:53.400 say what she says so all these genocides and everything else are completely justified because of

00:58:57.640 preferences i literally gave you your worldview back to you and said yes they have to be

00:59:04.660 because hang on let me finish i don't believe that right am i allowed to finish what i'm saying

00:59:08.720 let him finish go ahead andrew so anyway the thing is is like if that's the cat gave you your whole

00:59:14.520 worldview back and showed you based on your worldview all of those things actually would be justified yes

00:59:18.780 because i don't believe that you can ground this concept of good or evil outside of preference and you

00:59:25.780 haven't and you want me to just move on hang on and you want me to just move on from that and i'm not

00:59:30.540 going to until you either a concede that your morality is is all preferences or b justify how

00:59:35.820 it's not i don't believe that morality is based in preference i don't believe that morality is based

00:59:40.020 in inherent natural law and we've already talked about but inherent would would say that it's well

00:59:44.580 here's the thing inherent would say that that's objective and you don't believe in objectivity

00:59:48.820 you believe only in subjective rights no that's not true we're talking about morality not rights you

00:59:53.480 don't believe that there is an inherent basis of morality from your view there's not i'm not asking you

00:59:59.320 about my view andrew i'm asking you about your view it wouldn't matter what my view was no it does

01:00:03.600 i'm really genuinely curious that's nice but i want to know right look we're not gonna we're not

01:00:08.920 i'm not moving past it until we get to good and bad we're not doing it believe that there is any

01:00:15.140 inherent it wouldn't matter yes it does it doesn't it doesn't matter doesn't matter you have to

01:00:22.460 actually like give an opinion you can't just sit here and like if you don't understand you i don't

01:00:27.800 why don't you understand give me the definition and ask for the definitions of things over and

01:00:31.900 over and over and over you've destroyed the ability for morality itself you've destroyed the ability

01:00:38.340 for morality itself so it wouldn't matter what i claimed what do you mean i've destroyed the ability

01:00:43.620 because because what you're claiming is an anti-realist position it's a moral anti-realist

01:00:49.520 position you're saying there's no true moral facts everything is just morality based on preferences

01:00:55.280 that's the opposite of what i just said ground it i just said then ground it there is inherent

01:01:01.380 morality based on natural law i just said that so now what is your definition of ground it do you

01:01:09.180 believe there's inherent morality answer a question why why would it matter answer it because i want to

01:01:15.060 know yeah sure we're in the middle and i think they're all preferences why am i the only one who is

01:01:19.240 sharing so you don't think there's so yes the prescriptive morality is not my opinion it's yours

01:01:23.640 it's yours too no it's not ground it i just did no you didn't i've done it over and over you haven't

01:01:29.560 you are afraid to i literally just let each other finish please how did what what did i ground what

01:01:36.300 did i ground morality in you just grounded it in prescriptive no preference you just said that

01:01:40.440 preference prescriptive is and what are you grounding morality is the morality what are you grounding

01:01:44.900 morality in i'm grounding morality in the inherent belief that humans deserve natural rights

01:01:50.400 so your preferences

01:01:52.260 but it's inherent it can't be inherent if you're grounding it in your preference there is an

01:01:59.800 inherent right then demonstrate that they're inherent demonstrate the what's inherent morality right

01:02:06.100 yeah morality i just did with no you didn't yes we did with slavery we you want to go back to the

01:02:11.420 slavery example so if an entire society believes that this one society should be enslaved and there's

01:02:18.000 less of them yeah under your definition of morality enslaving this smaller group would be morally

01:02:24.180 justified based on preference yes okay and i'm saying because morality is inherent then even though all

01:02:30.500 these people would like to enslave them it is still not morally justified i see so um tell me something

01:02:37.900 this these inherent rights um where do they come from again inherent rights i don't believe they come

01:02:46.240 from god i believe they come from natural law but god is also an example so is natural law unchanging

01:02:51.140 um yeah to an extent it natural law is unchanging yeah okay and um can you demonstrate an unchanging

01:03:00.120 natural law um in order for he will all humans like have to be born and all humans die that's a natural

01:03:06.740 law you know a moral natural law but morality is based on natural law the natural like natural law is not

01:03:13.500 what is moral or immoral so what wait now i'm really confused i thought you just said that natural law

01:03:20.700 is what you're appealing to for what is or isn't moral yes natural law okay so can you give me an

01:03:26.740 example of an unchanging natural law which is moral or immoral okay causing harm creates human suffering

01:03:34.740 that's a natural law we know this to be fact that's a natural law yeah okay can you demonstrate

01:03:39.640 the natural law for me okay other than if andrew punched brian in the face brian you think that

01:03:44.620 would hurt yes okay so there it is that's the natural law if you caused harm to brian it would

01:03:51.060 create human suffering in brian there it is what if brian wanted me to punch him in the face because

01:03:56.140 he thought it felt good well that's now consensual so i guess so then that's not an unchanging natural

01:04:02.660 law non-consensual harm there how's that non-consensual harm sure okay and when you say

01:04:08.460 non-consensual harm can a person like i don't know consent to things which would harm them

01:04:13.600 and that would still be bad cause human suffering because they want it i see okay so when you say

01:04:20.620 suffering is suffering this idea is that subjective or objective do you believe that that's requiring

01:04:28.260 minds or not well everything requires a mind okay so then the ideas for what suffering is right now can

01:04:35.240 change well i guess some suffering isn't isn't subjective what what suffering what's what form

01:04:45.840 of suffering or preference for suffering can't change over time well i guess yeah your personal i guess

01:04:50.580 suffering is subjective to each person yeah yeah so then they it preferences for suffering can change

01:04:56.040 over time well it's because well the definition of suffering doesn't change but like an individual

01:05:01.820 yeah can feel like something well then natural laws now rendered incoherent because hang on because

01:05:07.600 you said that it's unchanging but you clearly think that it does change well suffering doesn't change

01:05:13.400 okay so suffering suffering it can change between people like it's then it changes but suffering itself

01:05:21.200 the concept of suffering is not changing but what we each interpret as suffering on our bodies can change

01:05:27.260 yes then it's not unchanging it is unchanging it still exists well but how can i don't understand

01:05:33.700 how can it be an unchanging law do you not understand what suffering is i don't understand how it can be

01:05:37.480 an unchanging law if it can change what do you think that suffering is andrew i don't know like pain

01:05:41.680 things like that i think yes yeah so pain still exists but someone's pain tolerance can maybe get

01:05:46.800 better or worse over time right yeah so the concept of suffering and pain is the same but

01:05:52.780 it can like it's subjective to each person do you understand that yeah so i'm gonna show i'll show

01:06:00.100 you kind of the line of logic here okay okay so if it's the case that you have you think that morality

01:06:06.340 is an unchanging standard and you're pointing to natural law right you're saying natural law is

01:06:11.660 unchanging this is the standard for which i base morality on and it's not preferential yes okay it's

01:06:17.660 not preferential so natural law exists somewhere yes absent minds sure okay sure where

01:06:25.240 well there's multiple natural laws moral natural laws no not moral natural laws just subjective

01:06:32.940 natural laws but being born and dying exists absent of mind pain exists absent of mind how does pain

01:06:41.120 exist absent of mind physical pain can exist absent of mind how

01:06:44.740 if someone cuts off your arm it's gonna fucking hurt no it's not just that you think those are

01:06:50.760 both minds it's neurons those are minds well it's not neurons but those those are both minds

01:06:55.020 what are you talking about so how does pain exist absent of mind so you don't think like

01:07:02.060 pain exists absence of mind because it's your body your body is feeling things you can feel things

01:07:07.140 without your mind thinking about it what i mean it's your central nervous system how do you feel

01:07:11.340 something without a mind you never felt this if you had no brain you would feel stuff we have

01:07:16.960 multiple if you had no brain you would feel stuff well i've never not had a brain before do you think

01:07:23.060 people with no brain feel stuff i don't know why don't we ask one of them do what do you think

01:07:27.660 i don't know where do you think where where are your pain receptors located aren't they all over

01:07:34.060 your body if you have no brain how could you possibly feel pain because you feel pain in your

01:07:41.780 body how without a brain to process it but who the fuck doesn't have a brain andrew like who is this

01:07:47.080 argument you said that pain doesn't require minds so so long as humans have a brain then we can feel

01:07:54.600 pain so minds brain well what's a mind other than a brain to you well the mind is the conscious inside

01:08:00.640 of your brain so it's the brain no it's not then if you consciousness is not your brain so that if

01:08:05.260 you don't have a brain do you have consciousness no okay then it's the brain but you can have a

01:08:09.480 brain without consciousness right like chickens have brains but they're still not conscious that's

01:08:13.980 sentience no it's a conscious sentience your conscious is what is thinking right well no cortex

01:08:21.080 is your con no because you would have unconscious consciousness which would mean like you could be

01:08:25.060 half brain dead but still like picture things in your mind yeah actually that's a great example do

01:08:29.000 people who are brain dead feel pain shall we switch prompts this is the fucking yeah i let's let's

01:08:35.960 can i just finish with one last thing sure okay i just want to finish i just want to finish with one

01:08:41.060 last thing i just want to point this out to you so that you understand that you this whole time you

01:08:48.840 have not been able to demonstrate moral facts absent preference everything that you give as a moral fact

01:08:56.180 like pain suffering things like that are just things that you're claiming you have a preference

01:08:59.760 against they don't exist absent minds are subjective to the individual so if that if that's the case

01:09:05.260 you're grounding all morality in preference all of it you're not like what else could it possibly be

01:09:12.320 you just and then when i ask you so so if i say hey is murdering brian wrong you say yes i say

01:09:17.560 why because this principle i say well isn't that adherence to the principle just your preference yes so

01:09:22.240 what makes killiam wrong it's sir it's a massive circle natural law i literally just said that i

01:09:27.420 mean honestly andrew i think you're having a hard time listening because you're so focused on

01:09:31.080 justifying slavery despite you know your belief that do you think do you think that that's going

01:09:35.880 to make a good clip for you because it's not going to it's not a great clip for you andrew i don't

01:09:41.580 really need to clip you come on give me a break you're going to try to open another jar of pickles

01:09:46.900 do you think that that one's going to be a good one for you too but anyway go ahead we can move on

01:09:52.400 to the next topic it's most ridiculous i just want to finish this off i do too go ahead well yes

01:09:57.400 well you each get you just finished so now may i have my final statement yes i mean andrew i don't

01:10:04.600 really agree with your basic definition of prescriptive morality i think that prescriptive morality opens the

01:10:10.600 door for so the moral justification for so many aspects of human suffering

01:10:16.580 including slavery and genocide which you just justified yourself now whether or not we agree

01:10:22.300 on what each natural law is i think the natural law is what justifies and dictates what is moral and

01:10:28.440 immoral and i mean if you don't agree with that then i guess you can just head over to north korea

01:10:33.220 all right i'm done okay so the next prompt there's quite a few but while we can i have a smoke first

01:10:40.280 yeah i'll do a smoke you guys want to take a break yeah because it's been like an hour now

01:10:44.540 all right we go for it go for it the next the as soon as they would you can go at the same time

01:10:50.960 if you'd like i'm good okay all right got it so we'll go over just a couple things here the next

01:10:56.420 prompt it's also a break from andrew that's fine uh the next prompt guys andrew's just taking a smoke

01:11:02.740 break well we'll announce it as soon as he returns and if they agree on the exact prompt i am

01:11:09.940 going to and then we'll also do the q a session so if you guys want to send in a question or statement

01:11:16.760 you can do so via streamlabs.com slash whatever that's streamlabs.com slash whatever

01:11:23.400 $199 and up if you want a uh to submit a question or a statement also guys like the video we have about

01:11:33.200 11 000 12 000 people watching so if uh you guys are enjoying the stream you'd like to see more of

01:11:39.440 these debates drop a like on the video it's uh supports the show also you can support without

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01:12:01.040 prime you can link it to your twitch and then you can drop twitch prime subs it's a quick free easy

01:12:06.040 way to support the show every single month also we have some merchandise shop.whatever.com

01:12:11.460 also what was the bingo well we can get your t-shirt can you hold the bingo the bingo thing up to the

01:12:18.460 okay so i thought it'd be fun if we did um sorry i'm like a little autistic with my notes

01:12:26.260 um logical fallacy bingo i don't know if you can see it move it forward just a little bit

01:12:33.140 so it's actually turn it and you see how it's coming into frame other other way do you see on

01:12:41.340 the left side of the screen there turn it the other way is it like almost so it's facing behind you

01:12:46.140 almost turn it like that oh like this yeah and then scoot it this camera i see what you're saying

01:12:52.400 okay there you go here she she did a logical fallacy bingo there it is there it is

01:12:59.680 it's not necessarily in focus but yeah this is logical fallacy bingo did he hit me with an ad

01:13:06.720 hominem did i miss one i i haven't been keeping i know okay maybe both it's possible i think you

01:13:12.240 should start doing these more in debate the bingo we do have bingos oh do you usually i'll send you a

01:13:17.660 picture of it you should do the ad you should send me a picture i'll post it on our discord

01:13:21.780 speaking of which discord.gg slash whatever uh we post uh behind the scenes

01:13:28.960 our schedule hate mail uh pull it up really quick guys if you if you want to see all the behind the

01:13:36.580 scenes stuff of our discord we had uh scroll up a little bit yeah we post like all the reasons people

01:13:42.520 cancel we post our legal threats that we get we post uh let's see what was the most recent one

01:13:49.700 uh no it's all good discord.gg slash whatever if you want to stay updated on everything going on

01:13:57.260 in the world of whatever and like guys like the video also if you want to become a master debater

01:14:02.480 like andrew or naima debate university.com they're both master debaters and if you want to become one

01:14:10.520 yourself and um engage you do a lot of debates you're what are you a journey are you a journeyman

01:14:19.700 debater you're what's a journeyman debate i'm not sure actually did you just make that up like you

01:14:24.660 know how there's like there's uh journeyman electricians i don't really know a lot about

01:14:31.040 the world of electricians journey i don't know is it i think i think it should be like karate like a

01:14:35.760 belt system what oh sorry i think it should be like a belt system like karate uh so a worker or

01:14:42.380 sports player who is reliable but not outstanding you call me a journeyman debater you said you

01:14:49.540 weren't a master if you're not a master what are you okay that's fair all right that's okay fine

01:14:54.180 intermediate i don't know are you intermediate intermediate to advanced intermediate to

01:14:59.480 advanced are there any synonyms for like i feel like i'm like a brown belt you're a brown belt

01:15:06.360 right as i go okay all right that works i think it should be a belt system i think it'd be really fun

01:15:12.840 that works uh let's see here i'm gonna let some chats come through oh no i hate the chats i'll wait

01:15:19.500 for the chats until everybody is back at the table trying to think if there was anything else that we

01:15:25.800 needed to uh go over there guys if you're enjoying the stream kindly like the video we're going to be

01:15:31.500 doing a q a session as soon as both participants return to the table so you can do that via stream

01:15:38.320 labs.com slash whatever did you want to do your smoke or do you want to just get back i want my

01:15:42.620 smoke okay never gonna say no to a cigarette all right sounds good we're taking guys we're taking a

01:15:48.800 brief break to allow the participants to have a a breather from the debate welcome back andrew

01:15:55.680 to the table so uh i wouldn't touch your eye to the microphone i don't know i just yeah your

01:16:10.500 forehead's good forehead's fine i wouldn't just i'm looking out for answer i don't need this guy

01:16:17.020 having pink eye at debate debate con speaking of which andrew you want to let the people know

01:16:21.460 you got debate con all right i'll do it for andrew i'll do it for andrew guys uh andrew's going to

01:16:29.240 be participating at uh debate con this is it friday saturday just bring me some fucking liquor for the

01:16:35.600 love of it there's there's some there's some fucking there's oh god this is oh tim pool tomorrow

01:16:43.100 if you guys uh want to see uh more of andrew he'll be on tim pool tomorrow and if you guys are enjoying

01:16:50.960 this debate andrew was on yesterday he was on saturday he had a one-on-one debate saturday and

01:16:58.020 he participated in our dating talk panel show sunday the links are just on our youtube channel i'm sure

01:17:03.860 most of you saw it but if you didn't those were fantastic shows and uh yeah be sure to check it out

01:17:10.860 should we get a beer also for for our i'll ask her when she comes back i'll i'll ask her when she

01:17:20.640 comes back uh so andrew in terms of prompts you'd like to get into once you realize that i can't

01:17:29.420 tilt this down like we can't get into debates if i like and we if a person refuses to even give me

01:17:39.620 simple coherent definite how do i debate with them dude what am i supposed to do with that

01:17:43.940 like it has to at least be coherent i mean charlie gave me coherent fucking definitely you know what

01:17:48.720 i mean yeah like i have to have i have to have something she wants me to argue positions i don't

01:17:55.200 even understand from her view like they don't even understand what she's asking me well let me tell you

01:17:59.780 the few prompts that we do have available to us and maybe you might find that there are

01:18:04.780 the prior conversation might not apply to these specific topics so black people can be racist

01:18:13.680 towards white people feminism enslaved women instead of liberating them women just as violent

01:18:19.240 as men if not more feminism lies about the benevolent nature of men yeah we can do that one

01:18:25.160 probably which one the feminism lies about the benevolent nature okay yeah all right

01:18:30.460 and then uh of the other ones i read you is there after we do the benevolent nature of men one

01:18:37.420 is there one that you'd like to i'm gonna make a demand i'm gonna make a demand for this first time

01:18:43.520 i've ever tried to make a demand of the whatever audience but that was like the most painful thing

01:18:50.340 on planet earth it really was it was just like pure 90 minutes of pure fucking pain and you've got to

01:18:58.000 send some money you've got to send some cash i earned every cent okay i earned every cent you can't

01:19:04.420 ever say i didn't i do have a bit of a headache too you know i'm i'm right here so you know

01:19:12.440 um let's see here guys venmo cash app whatever pod twitch.tv slash whatever drops to follow drop us

01:19:21.300 prime sub if you drop a prime sub we are going to pop it up on stream shop.whatever.com

01:19:26.340 uh we sell t-shirts pickle habas the german world war one helmets and uh these cups we're i have like

01:19:34.420 60 000 of them i need to sell some uh discord.gg slash whatever like the video if you're enjoying

01:19:40.400 the stream and also uh i already plugged debate university while andrew was out for a smoke but

01:19:46.720 guys if you want to become a master debater like andrew wilson if you want to watch a person argue

01:19:52.420 against their own worldview for 90 minutes straight and i know that they're doing it go to debate

01:19:56.340 university.com and guys and get my course get the course if you want to learn how if you want to learn

01:20:03.380 how to make them argue against their own position for 90 minutes straight that's how you do that

01:20:07.660 hours and hours of instructional video on debate also guys thanksgiving is coming up christmas is coming

01:20:15.600 up this time period of the year you're you're you're meeting with your your your liberal uh family

01:20:22.760 members and and you want to really just completely uh just destroy the relationship there at least you

01:20:30.600 win the you know those christmas dinner conversations thank your your crazy cat aunt or whatever she's

01:20:38.700 talking about how she doesn't like trump if you're gonna have an argument you might as well win it

01:20:43.840 at the cost of the complete destruction of your familial relationships debate university.com

01:20:52.320 guys as soon as naima is back we're gonna do uh q a questions if you want to send in some q a

01:20:59.720 questions that's streamlabs.com slash whatever why don't i just read this one from pelagic he sent

01:21:04.880 a super chat she has nothing to talk about the only thing going on here is typical female gaslighting

01:21:09.460 and manipulation she's just trying to throw andrew off by using word salad it's rather pointless not

01:21:15.760 gonna throw me off thank you pelagic for that pasty george thank you for your super chat thank you for

01:21:22.540 your super chat again pasty george uh kitty pride thank you for your super chat casey thank you for the

01:21:27.860 membership victor villa thank you appreciate it uh thank you for your super chat robert tanner thank you for

01:21:37.020 the uh membership robert tanner he he did the he did the three hat trick champagne pops

01:21:43.040 yesterday tanner tanner's the fucking man dude he's a fucking legend he's a fucking legend

01:21:48.880 thank you robert tanner are we by the way andrew um the chat has been asking

01:21:57.260 do you want to do a jar or i'm not letting anybody this time i'm not letting anybody get out of this

01:22:08.240 by trying to obfuscate or troll or any of that shit it's not going to happen there's a straight

01:22:13.980 fucking debate where it always should have been and um and that's what's going to happen

01:22:20.160 all right no obfuscation no clipping to obfuscate away from shit i'm just no fucking way you know the

01:22:29.160 world view just has to be put on display and that's that there it is uh nick can you check

01:22:34.320 on her um some shekels for paleo man god bless brother i was on the verge of an aneurysm listening

01:22:40.940 to her kudos on making her hate her own position without her understanding what she was doing go ahead

01:22:45.120 you can check on it uh let's try to get this going okay

01:22:48.420 all right she's rejoining us in just a minute i hope you guys didn't mind the little intermission

01:22:59.100 there but uh we had to give them each some time for a little little break we are going to resume the

01:23:07.220 debate momentarily in just a moment so she's returning to the table right now we're going to

01:23:16.240 get right back into it so what we'd like to uh do is just move in actually hold on we have to let some

01:23:22.060 of the chats come through so we'll do that right now a message from the government of canada

01:23:27.200 hello oh i see what happened one moment let me redo that oh yeah because i apologize

01:23:34.760 welcome back guys we're doing the q a session right now it's a uh 199 and up that's streamlabs.com

01:23:44.080 slash whatever if you want to get it in get them in now all right hold on one moment while we let

01:23:51.560 these come through thank you pasty george appreciate it i'll pull that back up here in just a moment

01:23:56.440 sure xd donated two hundred dollars if this is what the left considers an all-star the bend is

01:24:02.360 running real low here i can't figure out if none of them understand internal critique or if this is

01:24:08.600 a strategy to avoid it as a defeater sure is that our question uh just a statement we'll message from

01:24:16.200 the government of canada let them all come through pasty george donated two hundred dollars and four

01:24:21.220 cents thank you pasty george to brown locks if everything has human rights as you have stated

01:24:26.420 so many times then do unborn babies have rights how about babies aborted before or after twenty one

01:24:33.540 weeks this is human quick it's not human quick response to this this is actually a really

01:24:38.780 interesting question well i so i think the language here you see how you said everything has human

01:24:44.140 rights i don't believe that everything has human rights two hundred dollars okay sorry for your

01:24:50.020 pain sorry brian lol do you want you can continue responding yeah well i don't believe everything has

01:24:55.540 human rights i believe every person has human rights every human has human rights and a fetus is

01:25:00.000 not yet a human but i mean under andrew's belief in preferential morality if i preferred to abort a

01:25:06.220 fetus then it would be immoral so actually i think he's more pro-abortion than i am on that one

01:25:11.840 all right we have pasty george coming in again thank you ryan a message from the government of

01:25:18.840 canada pasty george donated two hundred dollars and four cents to brown locks if a tree falls in

01:25:26.340 the deep woods with nobody around does it make a sound pasty george if you donate four hundred

01:25:32.060 dollars to ask a question and i don't answer what happens then you don't answer a question and he just

01:25:39.320 wasted two hundred dollars right well be fair you should answer the question why because he's a it's

01:25:45.440 a q a session well i'm gonna say yeah it makes a sound all right we have a message from the government

01:25:52.660 of canada pasty george donated two hundred dollars and four cents to brown locks in natural law before

01:26:01.000 the days of colonization i would be able to put an arrow in your head without a second thought because

01:26:06.300 i would believe that i am defending my land from invaders but i wouldn't be on your land if it was

01:26:13.220 before colonization you would never have been near me

01:26:16.900 we have a few more the main community donated one hundred and ninety nine dollars

01:26:25.820 thank you moral if china declared war on america to decolonize and liberate the indigenous people of

01:26:31.780 the land and would you support them if not why uh no because i believe violence is immoral and i'm

01:26:40.120 not a consequentialist you're not you're not a consequentialist andrew i'm not talking i'm talking

01:26:47.200 to pasty george i just wanted to clarify you're not a consequentialist we talked about this in the

01:26:51.800 last debate if you don't remember you can look at it again okay

01:26:54.480 all right pasty george donated one thousand dollars for you andrew you deserve it especially

01:27:05.220 for putting up with the notardness uh so pasty just to clarify do you want us to pop a ball of

01:27:12.040 champagne do you either of you want i don't want champagne no can we have it after the debate

01:27:17.300 because i'll i can take some later yeah okay i guess i'll just drink the whole most of the

01:27:23.100 ball then uh all right a few are you just gonna drink an entire bottle of champagne i'm actually

01:27:28.040 i don't i don't really drink i'm a bit of a lightweight so probably not but uh maybe i'll have

01:27:32.980 if i'm throwing up in the bathroom i'll have jake step in as the moderator oh good for the rest of

01:27:37.800 the show okay so those are the q a's let me just double check um all right we are good to get right

01:27:44.800 back into it so we were considering as the next prompt feminism lies about the benevolent nature

01:27:51.220 of men andrew wanted to do that one how's that sound for you cool cool okay perfect we'll get right

01:27:56.620 into it okay um andrew if you wanted to do that why don't you take it away yeah hang on a second

01:28:02.580 yeah so um when i'm referencing the benevolent nature of men i'm referencing that men can at any

01:28:10.760 time they want take the rights away from women and there's nothing that women can do about it

01:28:15.980 and the opposite is not true and therefore i believe that men are benevolent and there should

01:28:21.140 be gratitude shown for them not doing that wait so you do believe that men are benevolent so then how

01:28:27.240 is feminism lying about the benevolent nature because uh feminism is saying that men are not benevolent

01:28:32.960 that men are the oppressor class and you're saying that men are benevolent yes based on the fact that

01:28:40.760 you could rape someone and then you choose not to based on the fact that uh kind of the bare minimum

01:28:46.000 now yeah can you repeat back my position so that you understand it um no andrew why don't you just

01:28:52.020 repeat it if you feel like you i want you to steal man so i know you understand it no andrew i'm not

01:28:56.480 going to steal man just i don't know where to go with that brian just give me your opinion again i already

01:29:00.120 i just gave it what do you want me to do here i just gave her the position she won't steal man it

01:29:05.860 then say it again okay so one more time sure women in this case feminists consider men to be

01:29:15.200 malevolent oppressors men are the oppressor class the patriarchy and it's actually through the

01:29:23.040 benevolence of men that women have rights and i think women should be grateful to men that they have

01:29:29.300 rights and how are you defining rights in this instance uh i would consider rights to be a set

01:29:34.820 of preferences that are shared between people okay so shared preferences um okay yeah so just read that

01:29:46.420 reading that back men are benevolent because they could kill women but they choose not to

01:29:53.080 yeah pretty much yeah but that's kind of the bare minimum like anyone could is benevolent that's just

01:29:59.280 an assertion can you substantiate that i mean what makes it the bear anyone can commit an act of

01:30:03.980 violence against someone that is smaller than them and we all every day choose not to i don't think

01:30:08.640 that that's that's not an argument can you give me an argument yeah my argument is that i don't

01:30:13.840 necessarily agree with your definition that's not an argument but that well we just had an hour-long

01:30:19.180 debate over definition so now you're opposed to that when it's your definition you want to find

01:30:23.420 benevolent i mean honestly in terms of the premise i do agree with you that men are benevolent but i

01:30:31.320 don't agree that benevolence is simply choosing not to commit acts of harm against others really

01:30:37.520 because i thought your entire moral stance was about not committing acts of harm against others and

01:30:41.580 that's what the good is yeah so then that would mean that then that would mean men are good

01:30:46.640 no i mean good is proliferating positive acts no that's not what you said i think it's a

01:30:52.800 that's not what you said i think it's objectively morally neutral objectively morally neutral well

01:30:58.820 oh god not the word objective never mind cut that one i think it's just morally neutral to decide

01:31:03.240 not to kill someone is a moral neutral you haven't done something good you haven't done something

01:31:07.640 bad you've done nothing okay then can you substantiate what moral neutrality is moral neutrality is

01:31:12.640 when you haven't done something that is good or bad okay so and what are we considering bad here

01:31:16.600 from your argument bad would be the proliferation of human suffering and this would mean then that

01:31:22.420 since men are not proliferating human suffering they're not doing anything bad right yes but then

01:31:29.340 the opposite of proliferating human suffering would be proliferating something that is beneficial to

01:31:34.760 mankind like women's rights but you've done nothing like zero wait like it's a net zero like women's

01:31:39.680 rights so you don't think that women had any stake in defining their rights that's not contending

01:31:44.940 with the argument you don't think that like that's not contending with the argument that's asking a

01:31:49.400 question yeah i'm giving you a formal argument you're saying that men just decided unilaterally

01:31:54.140 one day that they were going to give women rights but that's not what happened because we know

01:31:58.280 historically there were multiple waves of feminism in which women participated in civil and civil

01:32:03.740 disobedience in order to be a woman my argument is is that if men chose to collectivize to stop

01:32:09.880 whatever their collective disobedience was it would have been stopped okay so you think that men are

01:32:14.080 good because they could choose to murder all women and they don't yeah okay sure and not only that

01:32:19.240 but that they're benevolent do you want a cookie yeah that's true i agree they're benevolent

01:32:23.840 i don't think that all men that means that so feminism there are tons of men who do commit

01:32:28.360 and those women are and men are not so that then when feminists claim that the patriarchy is evil

01:32:37.440 and malevolent you would claim the patriarchy is malevolent no i'm wait that i would claim the

01:32:44.080 patriarchy is benevolent you would claim it's benevolent so there we go so i'm sorry are you

01:32:48.200 saying that i'm claiming the patriarchy is malevolent or benevolent i'm asking is a patriarchy

01:32:53.020 malevolent or benevolent no i believe perpetuating inequality is malevolent but that doesn't mean

01:32:58.400 that all men are inherently malevolent well how does the patriarchy advocate for inequality is a

01:33:04.640 system of inequality run by basis of gender that is run by men okay so those men are evil

01:33:13.480 i think that if you are attempting to perpetuate inequality through the oppression of others

01:33:19.760 that is a morally bad action how's the patriarchy doing that the perpet the patriarchy is perpetuating

01:33:26.100 inequality of women by you know denying them the right to vote denying them didn't they give them

01:33:30.540 the right to vote well they didn't give them it was one well no they again unfortunately just seconds

01:33:37.500 ago you agreed with me yeah i do hang on that if men wanted to take away the rights of women to vote

01:33:43.660 they could by that logic then the patriarchy could have taken away their right to vote and did not

01:33:49.360 how could they be anything less than benevolent didn't they equalize voting between men and

01:33:54.020 women yes then but how could you say that but the patriarchy isn't what equalized voting between men

01:34:00.480 and women it was women's struggle that is what granted women the right to vote no it was men

01:34:05.780 who did not get in the way and went ahead and granted it because they could have taken it whenever

01:34:10.740 they wanted well i don't think that every man is an inherent like master of the patriarchy

01:34:15.520 okay there are many men who oppose the patriarchy alongside of women is the system paid that men

01:34:21.720 or women feminists were fighting against patriarchal yes and i believe that the system is malevolent

01:34:26.900 but men are not all inherent yeah i know but can i can i give the argument i'm agreeing with you

01:34:32.160 andrew what are you even arguing i'm i'm asking is the patriarchy but benevolent no well then we

01:34:38.420 have a but the patriarchy isn't a person andrew i'm not saying i'm not i'm not saying it's a person

01:34:44.220 but if it's men who are in charge of a system and the men in charge of the system allow women to

01:34:48.220 vote then that would mean that the patriarchy about your logic is benevolent i believe that

01:34:52.060 a system that is intended to perpetuate inequality on any basis is malevolent then can you tell me

01:34:57.620 however men are not inherently yeah i know but can you tell me then how the patriarchy is

01:35:02.080 the patriarchy is malevolent because it's a system that is perpetuated to increase inequality

01:35:08.660 which increases human suffering can you demonstrate that well before feminism and women didn't have

01:35:15.720 the rights to vote hold credit cards own homes leave their husbands get divorced sued and be sued

01:35:23.720 if a woman were to be mistreated by a man she would have no power to leave that man without sacrificing

01:35:31.380 her ability to have housing food and basic human needs so it puts women in a position of dependency

01:35:38.640 on men so that if there is an individual man who decides to behave malevolently that woman has

01:35:45.360 no ability to get away from him and the patriarchy and the patriarchy perpetuates that

01:35:50.700 by preventing women from having access to jobs and the things that would allow them to get their own

01:35:58.400 resources so two there's two there's two arguments individual freedom yeah there's two arguments

01:36:02.840 there so i'll compete to contend with both of them let's start with the first one

01:36:05.860 if it is the case that the patriarchy was acting in a malevolent way and women appealed to the

01:36:11.540 patriarchy and they granted them these various rights that you considered was unjust which by

01:36:16.180 your logic they had to then wouldn't that be the patriarchy acting benevolently but we're not

01:36:20.460 appealing to the patriarchy we're appealing to the morality of men i don't think that all men are

01:36:25.460 naturally just patriarchy then when you were fighting the system is a system but men are not the system

01:36:31.460 so some men are created the system give you the right to vote the system did not give us the right

01:36:36.780 to vote then who did men who were not a part who did not subscribe to the system helped us establish

01:36:43.640 the right to vote through our own work as social mark breakers so wait i'm confused civil disobedience who

01:36:51.180 was in charge i mean do you not believe in like who was in who was in charge at the time was it a

01:36:55.840 patriarchal system yes it was a patriarchal and did that patriarchal system give you the right to vote

01:37:00.840 no well then how did you get the right to vote men and women who were against the concept and the

01:37:09.200 proliferation of the patriarchy fought alongside each other fought how with signs yeah oh i mean it's

01:37:16.920 worked all over the world i see mandela gandhi i see so hang on there is civil disobedience that

01:37:22.280 is awarded people right how did they win it exactly like what did they do well a law was passed that

01:37:28.360 gave women the right to vote what law which amendment is it you don't know no i don't remember which

01:37:33.180 amendment specifically someone that gives women the right to vote but there was an amendment that gave

01:37:36.640 women the right to vote there's also an amendment that gives so then actually the established system

01:37:43.760 which was in power which was patriarchal passed an amendment for women to vote but it's not a

01:37:50.200 system passing a system is not a person though yeah i know yes do people get to vote on amendments

01:37:56.540 yes so people voted on the amendment that's not right can we pull up do you understand the difference

01:38:03.240 between a system and a person i would like to pull up i would like to pull up if people voted on the

01:38:07.520 amendment yes people did vote on the amendment okay so you think that all of those people like do you

01:38:12.120 think that every man is inherently the patriarchy hang on let's do a fact check here i just want to

01:38:17.840 make sure do you think that every man is inherently the patriarchy what do you like me to pull up um

01:38:22.720 did the people have a direct vote on the 19th amendment no it's 19th glad i didn't guess i was

01:38:29.700 going to say 22nd

01:38:32.420 one moment

01:38:37.000 sure

01:38:37.980 it says no the general public did not have a direct vote on the 19th but that's not how any amendment

01:38:47.300 was ratified through the process outlined in the u.s constitution okay which involves votes by elected

01:38:53.520 representatives so then people did vote who was the system who is that wasn't the people voting yes

01:38:59.540 you just got caught in a huge lie hold on andrew are elected representatives human or not are they

01:39:04.960 people are were they the patriarchy no i'm asking you are they human sure the question was did people

01:39:10.620 vote was ratify the 19th amendment i'm saying yes and people didn't vote i'm not saying the people

01:39:15.460 yes you were country i'm saying you're just gaslighting because you got caught in a lie now help me out

01:39:20.220 here i'm saying people as in were the elected officials the patriarchy i don't believe that all of

01:39:26.480 the i don't know every single elected officials then who was the patriarchy they were fighting

01:39:30.140 against it's a system and who was in charge of the system do you understand who was in charge of the

01:39:35.240 system the system proliferates itself no one is specifically like do you think how do systems

01:39:39.940 proliferate themselves without people a system is created by people that's it yes so a system is

01:39:46.260 created by people and can be amended by people but the system itself is not a person do you understand

01:39:51.780 that there's no person who's like i am the spokesperson was the patriarchy in charge of

01:39:56.540 the system or not was the patriarchy in charge of the patriarchy was this was the patriarchy in

01:40:01.620 charge of the system of what system of the electoral system was the patriarchy well men were in charge of

01:40:07.720 the electoral system was the patriarchy but the patriarchy is not able to be in charge of the

01:40:15.040 patriarchy what's wrong with you who's in charge of the patriarchy if it's not the patriarchy well it's

01:40:19.360 men, but not every man is inherently

01:40:21.360 a member of the patriarchy. Who says every man?

01:40:23.400 I'm talking about elected officials.

01:40:25.680 Exactly. Were the elected officials

01:40:27.140 who these women were protesting to

01:40:29.360 to change law, the patriarchy

01:40:31.640 they were protesting against?

01:40:33.060 I don't know if every single elected official

01:40:35.160 that voted on the 19th Amendment

01:40:36.900 was for or against the patriarchy, Andrew.

01:40:39.440 Were they the patriarchy?

01:40:41.180 Are they all the patriarchy? I'm not going to make

01:40:43.300 that assumption about large people.

01:40:44.340 Then point to what the system is

01:40:47.240 that's the patriarchy. What is that system?

01:40:49.760 The system of the patriarchy

01:40:51.460 is the government structure

01:40:53.200 that enabled, well, actually

01:40:55.520 the system of the patriarchy

01:40:57.480 is the structure in government

01:40:59.680 that enables

01:41:01.260 inequality on the basis of gender.

01:41:03.860 It's not just one thing.

01:41:05.580 It's a series of laws.

01:41:07.700 And was that system of patriarchy

01:41:09.700 It was set up by men.

01:41:11.140 And was it in place at the time the 19th Amendment

01:41:13.480 was put in place? Yes.

01:41:15.060 And so weren't they appealing to that system

01:41:17.340 of patriarchy in order to get

01:41:19.060 the 19th Amendment passed?

01:41:20.480 They appealed to men

01:41:21.660 who worked within the patriarchy

01:41:23.400 but those men don't have to be the patriarchy.

01:41:25.900 So they appealed to the patriarchy.

01:41:27.900 But not every man is the patriarchy.

01:41:29.460 I didn't say they were.

01:41:30.360 In this case, we're talking about

01:41:31.620 a system of elected officials

01:41:33.700 where that system of elected officials

01:41:35.500 is the patriarchy.

01:41:35.620 I don't think that the Constitution

01:41:36.640 and the entire government

01:41:38.560 is the patriarchy, Andrew.

01:41:39.620 Then what is the patriarchy?

01:41:40.700 It's specific laws

01:41:42.100 that enable the proliferation

01:41:44.860 of inequality.

01:41:45.200 How can a law be a patriarchy?

01:41:47.100 A law can be a...

01:41:48.260 So it's specific laws

01:41:49.740 that enable the proliferation

01:41:51.460 of inequality.

01:41:52.700 That can't be the patriarchy.

01:41:54.180 The patriarchy is people, isn't it?

01:41:55.580 Yes. It's a collection...

01:41:55.960 No.

01:41:56.460 You're the one that said that.

01:41:57.600 Patriarchy is not people?

01:41:58.740 No.

01:41:59.560 It's an inanimate object.

01:42:00.740 It's not a fucking person.

01:42:01.860 You keep saying the patriarchy is people.

01:42:03.200 That's what I'm trying to tell you.

01:42:03.840 So what's a matriarchy?

01:42:06.240 A matriarchy would be

01:42:07.360 a system of laws

01:42:08.580 that proliferates

01:42:09.420 the inequality

01:42:10.140 of the sexes

01:42:12.120 in favor of women.

01:42:14.380 So if you have a matriarchy,

01:42:16.840 would it require

01:42:17.420 that there was women

01:42:18.500 who were in charge

01:42:19.880 and in powerful positions,

01:42:21.800 the top positions?

01:42:22.920 Yes.

01:42:23.360 Right?

01:42:23.980 Otherwise, it wouldn't be matriarchal, right?

01:42:25.720 Sure.

01:42:26.320 So then patriarchal,

01:42:27.860 it would have to have men

01:42:28.720 in those same positions.

01:42:30.600 Yes.

01:42:30.840 But those men are not the patriarchy.

01:42:32.840 Let me just follow up.

01:42:33.700 Well, no, I think they...

01:42:34.880 Who else would be

01:42:35.720 the patriarchy then?

01:42:36.740 It's a system.

01:42:38.480 It's laws, Andrew.

01:42:40.080 Can you...

01:42:40.400 Like the law

01:42:41.260 that did not allow women to vote

01:42:43.780 is a part of the patriarchal system.

01:42:46.460 But it's not one freaking dude.

01:42:48.340 Why do you keep thinking

01:42:49.120 that the patriarchy

01:42:49.820 is a single set of humans?

01:42:51.080 Okay, well then walk me through...

01:42:52.240 It can be an ideology as well.

01:42:53.860 Okay, I see.

01:42:54.240 So like if you are a man

01:42:55.380 who says,

01:42:55.820 I believe that women

01:42:56.480 don't have a right to vote,

01:42:57.700 then yes,

01:42:58.140 you would be in favor

01:42:59.120 of a patriarchal system.

01:43:00.420 So when feminists

01:43:01.440 were fighting against patriarchy,

01:43:02.880 they were fighting

01:43:03.300 against an inanimate object.

01:43:05.280 We're fighting against a system, yes.

01:43:06.940 An inanimate object?

01:43:07.620 Do you not understand

01:43:08.300 how systemic oppression works?

01:43:09.560 Well, I don't understand

01:43:10.400 how patriarchy works.

01:43:12.400 Okay, so you don't understand

01:43:13.340 how patriarchy works.

01:43:13.720 I guess I don't.

01:43:14.660 Thank you.

01:43:15.100 All right.

01:43:15.380 I'm super confused.

01:43:17.060 Feminists were fighting

01:43:18.880 against an inanimate object.

01:43:21.280 It's a system.

01:43:22.200 Do you know what a system is?

01:43:23.600 Can you define the system?

01:43:24.400 I think that systems of governance

01:43:26.580 require human beings.

01:43:28.360 Yes.

01:43:28.520 And I think specifically that...

01:43:29.920 But systems of government...

01:43:30.500 I think specifically feminists

01:43:31.820 were pointing at men

01:43:33.140 in the government

01:43:33.760 as being the patriarchy for sure.

01:43:35.820 Systems of government

01:43:36.540 require human beings,

01:43:37.720 but systems of government

01:43:38.480 are not human beings.

01:43:40.180 That's what I'm saying.

01:43:41.740 Those men might have had power

01:43:43.040 because of the patriarchy,

01:43:44.720 but the patriarchy

01:43:45.580 is not defined

01:43:46.280 by those five people.

01:43:47.600 If they were to die,

01:43:49.440 then the patriarchy

01:43:50.240 is not dead.

01:43:51.020 It's not over.

01:43:51.640 And that's the issue

01:43:52.740 with the system

01:43:53.480 is because it's inanimate,

01:43:55.060 you can't just appeal

01:43:56.360 to one group of people

01:43:57.800 and expect it to end.

01:43:59.260 That's why there's been

01:44:00.060 multiple waves of feminism.

01:44:01.340 If the patriarchy

01:44:02.240 was just the people

01:44:03.100 that ratified the 19th Amendment,

01:44:05.280 then we would be over.

01:44:06.720 There'd be nothing to talk about.

01:44:07.760 So when you're appealing

01:44:09.980 to I want to get rid

01:44:11.980 of the patriarchy,

01:44:13.640 you're saying that you want

01:44:15.040 to just change

01:44:16.140 governmental systems?

01:44:17.540 I want to repeal

01:44:19.180 certain laws

01:44:20.140 that proliferate

01:44:20.960 the inequality

01:44:21.860 of the sexes.

01:44:22.420 So patriarchy is just laws?

01:44:24.260 Well, it's a collection

01:44:25.020 of laws and systems, yes.

01:44:26.700 Well, what system?

01:44:28.320 Well, it's within

01:44:29.020 the United States

01:44:29.780 government system.

01:44:30.700 Yeah, but what's

01:44:31.220 the system look like?

01:44:32.280 Because it looks to me

01:44:33.100 like we have the same

01:44:33.820 fucking system

01:44:34.440 that we had then.

01:44:35.300 Yes, but you see

01:44:36.000 how laws can be amended

01:44:37.180 and can change the rights?

01:44:38.280 So it's just laws?

01:44:38.860 Yes, essentially.

01:44:39.840 It's a collection of laws.

01:44:40.480 So patriarchy is just

01:44:41.500 a collection of laws?

01:44:42.620 Well, it's the idea

01:44:43.560 that a collection of laws

01:44:44.680 creates a system

01:44:45.700 of inequality, yes.

01:44:46.620 Okay, so...

01:44:47.220 On the basis of gender.

01:44:47.960 Is any law

01:44:49.760 which creates

01:44:50.580 something which is

01:44:52.280 unequal based

01:44:52.980 along gender lines

01:44:54.480 patriarchal?

01:44:56.180 Well, if it creates

01:44:57.140 inequality in favor

01:44:59.000 of women,

01:44:59.580 then no,

01:44:59.840 that would be

01:45:00.140 a matriarchal law,

01:45:01.500 right?

01:45:03.200 Okay, so matriarchy

01:45:04.780 and patriarchy

01:45:06.020 from your view...

01:45:07.280 It's not a human.

01:45:08.200 It's a collection of laws.

01:45:09.020 It's just laws.

01:45:09.860 Yes.

01:45:10.140 So if laws favor

01:45:11.000 a gender,

01:45:11.660 then it's matriarchal.

01:45:12.820 And if laws favor

01:45:13.680 the gender of female,

01:45:15.820 or of sex female,

01:45:16.820 then it's matriarchal.

01:45:17.940 Yes.

01:45:18.260 And sex male,

01:45:19.040 it's patriarchal.

01:45:19.620 Yeah, and I'm fine

01:45:20.220 with sex and gender

01:45:20.980 interchangeably.

01:45:22.580 I know some will...

01:45:23.120 I mean, I'm not.

01:45:24.340 Really?

01:45:25.120 Really.

01:45:25.780 You don't think that

01:45:26.700 you can use sex

01:45:28.200 and gender interchangeably

01:45:29.000 in this context?

01:45:29.740 No, I think that...

01:45:30.820 Oh, that's interesting.

01:45:31.440 I think that when

01:45:32.500 progressives say gender,

01:45:33.760 they mean something

01:45:34.260 that I mean.

01:45:35.080 I use it interchangeably

01:45:36.260 with sex

01:45:36.800 because I mean female

01:45:38.100 and male,

01:45:38.540 and they don't.

01:45:39.580 So let me ask you...

01:45:40.280 In the context of this,

01:45:40.720 I think we should use it

01:45:41.360 interchangeably,

01:45:41.920 but that's okay

01:45:42.400 if you don't want to.

01:45:43.040 So help me out here

01:45:43.880 with this then.

01:45:44.600 I just want to make sure

01:45:45.360 I got this right.

01:45:48.860 When we're talking about

01:45:50.440 systems of enforcement

01:45:51.540 for laws,

01:45:52.760 for these laws,

01:45:54.160 Yes.

01:45:54.620 Is the primary enforcement

01:45:56.160 mechanism going to be men?

01:45:59.720 Well, the primary enforcement

01:46:01.240 mechanism for most laws

01:46:03.020 is our legal system, right?

01:46:05.480 No, the enforcement arm.

01:46:07.040 The enforcement would be

01:46:07.960 the police.

01:46:09.220 And would you say

01:46:10.520 that the police

01:46:11.080 are mostly compiled of men?

01:46:12.860 Yes, sure.

01:46:13.560 Okay, and would you say

01:46:14.260 that almost all enforcement

01:46:15.420 mechanisms are compiled

01:46:16.520 mostly by men?

01:46:17.680 Sure.

01:46:18.380 So then if we're talking

01:46:19.740 about just the enforcement

01:46:20.720 of laws that you want,

01:46:22.280 aren't you again

01:46:22.960 appealing to men?

01:46:26.180 Okay, and?

01:46:27.680 I just want to make sure

01:46:28.420 that that's correct.

01:46:29.320 Okay.

01:46:29.860 Well, then you're ratifying

01:46:30.700 forced doctrine.

01:46:31.660 I'm not ratifying

01:46:32.620 forced doctrine, though,

01:46:33.520 because it's not a judgment on...

01:46:34.820 I mean, actually,

01:46:35.580 I believe in your

01:46:36.280 descriptor of forced doctrine.

01:46:37.560 My issue is that

01:46:38.280 I don't believe in your

01:46:39.160 prescriptor of forced doctrine.

01:46:40.600 I don't believe you're

01:46:41.100 in your opinion on it.

01:46:42.180 Forced doctrine is not

01:46:42.860 a prescription.

01:46:43.760 Well, do you have

01:46:44.720 an opinion on forced doctrine?

01:46:45.740 Do you believe that...

01:46:46.380 It's a descriptor.

01:46:47.220 Do you believe that

01:46:48.000 it's moral?

01:46:49.160 What?

01:46:49.840 Forced doctrine.

01:46:50.580 Do you believe that

01:46:51.100 using coercive force...

01:46:52.200 Wait a second, wait a second.

01:46:53.000 ...to consolidate power

01:46:53.760 is moral?

01:46:54.780 Sometimes.

01:46:56.140 Okay, that's fair.

01:46:56.960 Yeah, sometimes it is.

01:46:58.400 But not all the time?

01:46:59.900 No.

01:47:00.300 Okay, deal, deal.

01:47:01.420 But the thing is...

01:47:02.300 Andrew, you know we mostly

01:47:03.120 agree on this one, right?

01:47:04.220 What the fuck

01:47:04.620 are we even talking about

01:47:05.160 right now?

01:47:05.360 Well, I just wanted

01:47:06.380 to make sure that...

01:47:08.380 I mean, it actually

01:47:09.180 does sound like you think

01:47:10.260 that the...

01:47:11.880 If all you're appealing to

01:47:12.980 when you say patriarchy

01:47:14.120 is laws that are passed,

01:47:16.380 right?

01:47:16.720 That's it.

01:47:17.320 And that's what patriarchy is.

01:47:19.180 I think that that is

01:47:20.340 in complete disagreement

01:47:21.380 with the feminist movement

01:47:23.480 and what early feminist

01:47:24.600 pioneers were saying,

01:47:25.800 which is that

01:47:26.520 it's a male-oriented system,

01:47:28.460 not laws.

01:47:29.380 It is a male-oriented system.

01:47:29.980 And that it's the men

01:47:31.040 who are in charge

01:47:31.700 which are problematic, so...

01:47:33.920 I believe that the laws

01:47:34.880 are what are basically more...

01:47:36.640 I believe that the laws

01:47:37.720 are what are malevolent

01:47:39.000 in this system.

01:47:40.060 Okay.

01:47:40.320 When it comes to the existence

01:47:41.520 of the patriarchy,

01:47:42.560 it is laws.

01:47:43.500 Those laws were created

01:47:44.920 by some men.

01:47:46.560 Those men who created laws

01:47:48.680 to perpetuate inequality,

01:47:50.820 they are immoral

01:47:51.800 for that action.

01:47:52.920 But I don't believe

01:47:53.780 that all men are immoral

01:47:55.100 just because we live

01:47:56.000 in a patriarchal society.

01:47:57.840 I mean, that would be ridiculous.

01:47:59.100 How would I do anything?

01:47:59.980 How would I have a conversation

01:48:01.100 with them?

01:48:01.240 But that's not what I'm asking.

01:48:02.600 It is.

01:48:02.960 I'm asking you to differentiate...

01:48:04.360 You said that feminism lies

01:48:05.200 about the benevolence of men

01:48:06.560 and that feminists believe

01:48:07.720 that all men are immoral

01:48:09.240 and I don't think

01:48:10.200 that all men are immoral.

01:48:11.080 Yeah, well then,

01:48:11.620 I don't think that you believe

01:48:12.680 in the same prescriptions

01:48:13.520 that your feminist forebears did.

01:48:15.600 My feminist forebears

01:48:16.600 didn't believe

01:48:17.060 all men were immoral?

01:48:17.740 Well, it's not all.

01:48:18.380 They had husbands.

01:48:19.380 They definitely believed, though,

01:48:21.460 that the system of patriarchy

01:48:22.940 was literally men

01:48:24.800 who wanted to be in charge

01:48:26.460 and men reinforcing

01:48:27.540 the system of men

01:48:28.480 being in charge.

01:48:29.240 But that's not every man

01:48:30.720 is what I'm saying.

01:48:31.360 I didn't say it was.

01:48:32.420 Okay.

01:48:33.200 That's not the point.

01:48:34.220 But we're talking about

01:48:34.680 the benevolence of all men.

01:48:36.360 Yes, I believe that the men

01:48:37.580 who created the patriarchy

01:48:39.200 are immoral,

01:48:40.680 but that doesn't mean

01:48:41.800 that the men

01:48:42.220 who continue to exist

01:48:43.420 in the patriarchy

01:48:44.200 are all inherently immoral.

01:48:45.700 What makes those men immoral?

01:48:47.420 What makes those men immoral

01:48:48.440 is that they sought

01:48:49.680 to perpetuate inequality

01:48:51.900 within our society.

01:48:52.820 And what makes that immoral?

01:48:53.860 On the basis of gender.

01:48:54.940 Yeah, what makes inequality immoral?

01:48:56.000 Well, I believe it's the violation

01:48:57.200 of natural rights,

01:48:58.340 but you don't agree

01:48:59.360 that those exist,

01:49:00.520 so I guess

01:49:01.300 it is completely immoral

01:49:02.520 to oppress people

01:49:04.560 according to you.

01:49:05.860 Well, so,

01:49:06.880 what natural right...

01:49:08.400 But if you wanted to do

01:49:09.240 your prescriptive definition

01:49:10.800 of morality

01:49:11.800 because we don't want to be...

01:49:13.520 Yeah, when you say

01:49:14.040 a natural right,

01:49:15.680 you believe that it's immoral

01:49:17.340 under natural rights.

01:49:18.260 Which natural right

01:49:19.220 does that violate?

01:49:21.140 Well, I believe that

01:49:21.820 we all have a natural right

01:49:22.800 to bodily autonomy,

01:49:23.860 physical autonomy.

01:49:25.480 You do?

01:49:26.260 Yeah.

01:49:27.320 Really?

01:49:27.940 The right to bodily autonomy, yes.

01:49:29.540 Everybody?

01:49:30.420 Yeah.

01:49:31.060 Okay, so if two twin brothers

01:49:32.780 want to have sex with each other,

01:49:34.340 are they allowed to?

01:49:35.480 Oh my God, wait, my bingo.

01:49:36.780 Wait, my bingo.

01:49:39.300 Oh, hold on.

01:49:40.180 Can you just answer

01:49:41.020 the fucking question?

01:49:41.960 This is so performative

01:49:42.940 and cringe.

01:49:43.740 If two twin brothers...

01:49:45.540 Mmm...

01:49:47.660 Can you put the bingo thing away?

01:49:49.180 Yeah, can we just...

01:49:50.140 It's so cringe.

01:49:50.920 Can you just engage

01:49:51.720 with the fucking debate?

01:49:52.800 If two twin brothers

01:49:53.880 want to enter into

01:49:54.700 an incestuous relationship,

01:49:56.340 do you have any moral objection

01:49:57.720 to that based on your

01:49:58.720 standard of natural law?

01:50:00.060 As you just said,

01:50:00.700 everybody has bodily autonomy.

01:50:03.600 So long as it's not

01:50:04.580 harming yourself or others.

01:50:06.660 I don't think that this

01:50:07.520 is necessarily relevant

01:50:08.880 to the conversation.

01:50:09.340 Can you answer the question?

01:50:10.180 Do you know two twin brothers

01:50:10.960 who are going to fuck right now?

01:50:11.280 Can you answer the question?

01:50:12.440 Do you believe that

01:50:13.160 two twin brothers

01:50:14.100 who have sex with each other,

01:50:16.260 do you think that

01:50:17.000 that's inherently immoral?

01:50:18.340 I think it's disgusting.

01:50:19.260 Is it inherently immoral?

01:50:21.020 I think it's pretty gross.

01:50:21.660 Is it inherently immoral?

01:50:23.840 I mean, to me, yes.

01:50:25.500 Well, then you just violated

01:50:27.260 your own definition

01:50:29.100 of natural law,

01:50:30.060 which says that people

01:50:30.660 have bodily autonomy.

01:50:32.300 You're saying now they don't

01:50:33.740 and that's immoral.

01:50:35.100 So which is it?

01:50:36.140 Yeah, I mean,

01:50:37.040 it's just gross, though.

01:50:38.220 Okay, so is it immoral?

01:50:41.720 Yeah.

01:50:42.860 I mean,

01:50:43.940 well, what are the repercussions

01:50:45.140 of it?

01:50:45.600 Are they harming themselves

01:50:46.600 or each other?

01:50:47.540 They're both consenting.

01:50:49.600 If two consenting brothers

01:50:51.260 want to commit an act of incest...

01:50:54.260 Is it immoral?

01:50:55.360 I don't know.

01:50:56.840 I think it's kind of a gray area.

01:50:57.960 I say it's technically

01:50:59.800 not defying either

01:51:01.240 of their right

01:51:01.640 to bodily autonomy,

01:51:02.500 but I think it could

01:51:04.000 potentially cause harm.

01:51:05.160 Is it immoral or not inherently?

01:51:08.300 I don't know.

01:51:09.000 What do you think?

01:51:09.600 I'm asking you.

01:51:10.760 I'm asking you.

01:51:11.440 Answer the fucking question.

01:51:12.480 Is it inherently immoral or not?

01:51:17.780 I don't know, honestly.

01:51:19.240 I'm going to say I don't know.

01:51:19.800 You don't know if it's...

01:51:20.860 You don't know

01:51:21.620 if it's inherently immoral

01:51:23.260 after you just said

01:51:24.300 you believe every single individual

01:51:25.980 has bodily autonomy

01:51:27.000 for two twin brothers

01:51:28.400 to engage in an incestuous relationship.

01:51:30.440 You don't know?

01:51:30.880 I think that if it's harming themselves

01:51:32.720 or others,

01:51:33.320 then yes,

01:51:33.820 that would be immoral.

01:51:34.760 If their parents knew about this

01:51:36.820 and it destroyed their family,

01:51:37.920 then yeah,

01:51:38.200 that would be immoral.

01:51:39.080 Well, no,

01:51:39.820 because how would that violate

01:51:41.080 bodily autonomy?

01:51:43.100 Who cares what their parents know

01:51:44.660 and it hurts their feelings?

01:51:45.740 Who gives a shit?

01:51:46.340 Do you care about...

01:51:47.260 If your parents care about

01:51:48.440 your sexual relationships?

01:51:50.000 If it destroyed my family,

01:51:51.340 I think they would care, yeah.

01:51:52.180 That's inherently immoral

01:51:53.240 if you engage in a relationship

01:51:55.060 your parents don't agree with?

01:51:56.960 Well,

01:51:57.720 it's not just that

01:51:58.480 they don't agree with it.

01:51:59.520 It's that it would destroy

01:52:00.220 their family.

01:52:01.080 So,

01:52:01.620 I can make the same argument

01:52:02.920 for a homosexual child.

01:52:04.820 Oh,

01:52:05.360 you're having a homosexual relationship

01:52:07.000 and we're heavily religious

01:52:08.080 so that destroyed our whole family.

01:52:12.060 Yeah,

01:52:12.500 but that's on the basis of choice.

01:52:13.820 Like,

01:52:13.960 religion is a choice.

01:52:14.560 Both of these are based on choice.

01:52:17.080 No,

01:52:17.580 you can't really choose

01:52:18.560 who's your brother.

01:52:20.220 You can choose to fuck him!

01:52:22.300 Yeah,

01:52:22.560 that's true.

01:52:23.360 But you can't choose

01:52:24.300 who's your brother.

01:52:24.800 You can choose who...

01:52:26.800 Like,

01:52:27.860 you can choose to have an issue

01:52:30.380 with homosexuality.

01:52:31.540 That's a choice.

01:52:32.740 Both are choices.

01:52:33.960 Yeah.

01:52:34.440 I mean,

01:52:34.860 I think it's gross and wrong.

01:52:36.700 But is it...

01:52:37.280 Well,

01:52:37.420 it's not wrong,

01:52:38.180 right?

01:52:38.520 It's just...

01:52:39.000 Is it immoral?

01:52:41.120 I mean,

01:52:41.600 it's not violating

01:52:42.400 their personal bodily autonomy,

01:52:43.920 but it's wrong.

01:52:44.980 Okay,

01:52:45.400 what does that mean,

01:52:46.440 then,

01:52:46.860 wrong?

01:52:47.380 Does wrong mean immoral?

01:52:49.480 Yeah,

01:52:49.820 I mean,

01:52:50.000 what do you think,

01:52:50.520 Andrew?

01:52:50.680 I'm asking...

01:52:51.400 I want an answer

01:52:52.360 and then I'll give you my answer.

01:52:53.740 But for the love of God,

01:52:54.620 answer a question.

01:52:55.960 Okay,

01:52:56.280 I'm going to say

01:52:56.700 that there are limits

01:52:57.300 to bodily autonomy

01:52:58.140 and that that is immoral.

01:52:59.380 How's that?

01:52:59.800 So then,

01:53:00.420 what is the limits

01:53:01.400 to bodily autonomy?

01:53:02.400 I would say

01:53:02.780 if you're harming yourself

01:53:04.060 or others,

01:53:05.040 that would be a limit

01:53:05.820 on bodily autonomy.

01:53:06.140 Then demonstrate the harm,

01:53:07.300 the bodily harm

01:53:08.340 to themselves.

01:53:09.780 Well,

01:53:10.220 I mean,

01:53:10.460 they would be

01:53:10.940 completely disgraced

01:53:11.960 by society.

01:53:12.820 That's a pretty significant harm.

01:53:14.440 If I had to completely

01:53:15.500 disgrace myself

01:53:16.380 in front of society,

01:53:17.180 that's immoral?

01:53:18.020 Yeah,

01:53:18.240 you're harming yourself.

01:53:19.780 What?

01:53:20.040 That's self-harm.

01:53:20.800 You don't think so?

01:53:22.320 Like,

01:53:22.680 if you were to run around

01:53:23.400 the streets naked

01:53:24.120 and get arrested...

01:53:24.880 Do you think that

01:53:25.060 at first,

01:53:25.700 Martin Luther King

01:53:26.460 was embarrassing himself

01:53:27.560 in front of society?

01:53:28.440 Because at first,

01:53:29.240 I think he was

01:53:29.880 until he wasn't.

01:53:30.540 Oh my God,

01:53:31.120 do you think

01:53:31.360 Martin Luther King

01:53:31.900 was embarrassing himself?

01:53:32.220 Until he wasn't.

01:53:33.460 Do you think that

01:53:33.880 Martin Luther King

01:53:34.580 is a moral equivalency

01:53:35.840 to fucking...

01:53:36.540 No,

01:53:38.340 in order to get you

01:53:39.260 to understand

01:53:39.880 that the concept

01:53:41.060 that you just gave me

01:53:42.120 was if society

01:53:44.180 considers you

01:53:45.000 and your viewpoints

01:53:45.660 cringe,

01:53:46.300 that's bodily harm.

01:53:47.840 Do you realize

01:53:48.400 how crazy that is

01:53:49.260 to say out loud?

01:53:50.740 No,

01:53:51.260 but society

01:53:52.040 is not considering

01:53:53.300 incest cringe.

01:53:54.800 That's different.

01:53:55.720 Yes,

01:53:56.000 that's all they're doing

01:53:56.780 is considering it cringe.

01:53:57.700 No,

01:53:57.920 incest is different

01:53:58.340 than demanding

01:53:58.980 human rights

01:53:59.800 for black people.

01:54:01.620 Bro,

01:54:02.460 I don't know why you...

01:54:03.660 Because you brought up MLK.

01:54:04.640 Because I'm just...

01:54:05.340 I'm giving an example

01:54:06.200 of if society socially

01:54:07.600 found you to be

01:54:08.580 super cringe,

01:54:09.820 you're saying

01:54:10.360 that that is self-harm.

01:54:11.800 I think that it would

01:54:12.460 be self-harm

01:54:13.100 to destroy your relationship

01:54:14.300 with your family

01:54:15.020 and ostracize your...

01:54:16.220 Oh,

01:54:16.420 do you want me to...

01:54:16.800 I think that it would be

01:54:18.220 self-harm

01:54:18.940 to destroy your relationship

01:54:20.000 with your family

01:54:20.920 and to ostracize yourself

01:54:22.160 from society

01:54:22.880 for the purpose

01:54:23.500 of having sex

01:54:24.100 with your brother.

01:54:25.080 Okay,

01:54:25.460 would that apply

01:54:26.180 to just regular homosexuality?

01:54:28.360 If you were

01:54:28.740 in a religious community

01:54:29.860 and that was your community

01:54:31.920 or perhaps you're

01:54:32.740 in a religious nation

01:54:33.740 or state

01:54:34.280 and you decided

01:54:35.700 to engage

01:54:36.180 in homosexuality

01:54:37.340 and that destroyed

01:54:38.040 your family,

01:54:38.660 all of society

01:54:39.260 went against you,

01:54:40.200 that is now

01:54:40.640 the same...

01:54:41.220 Hang on.

01:54:41.700 The same principle

01:54:42.420 of self-harm.

01:54:43.480 How would that

01:54:43.900 not equally apply?

01:54:45.460 Homosexuality

01:54:45.820 is not a choice.

01:54:46.880 Having sex

01:54:47.280 with your brother

01:54:47.700 is a choice.

01:54:48.380 Having sex

01:54:48.960 as a homosexual

01:54:49.440 is a choice.

01:54:50.760 So you don't think

01:54:51.320 that any homosexual

01:54:52.060 should be allowed

01:54:52.640 to have sex

01:54:53.140 so long as their family

01:54:54.240 disagrees with it?

01:54:54.360 Do you understand

01:54:55.140 that when you

01:54:55.740 just continuously say

01:54:57.200 so you believe

01:54:58.040 when I ask you a question,

01:54:59.480 that is the cringest

01:55:00.980 thing that you do.

01:55:02.440 Anytime I ask you

01:55:03.200 a question,

01:55:04.080 you just say,

01:55:04.940 so you believe

01:55:05.980 that blah, blah, blah.

01:55:07.320 I'm asking you a question.

01:55:08.420 Well then why don't you

01:55:08.600 bother to share

01:55:08.960 your freaking beliefs?

01:55:10.280 Then I don't have

01:55:10.860 to ask you and probe you.

01:55:11.460 I literally just got done...

01:55:12.920 You confused.

01:55:13.300 I mean even the last one,

01:55:14.600 this one,

01:55:14.820 you confused to share

01:55:16.900 an opinion.

01:55:17.860 I just went through

01:55:18.720 all of my views on this

01:55:19.660 and we agreed

01:55:20.180 and now we're on

01:55:20.700 bodily autonomy.

01:55:21.620 So the thing is,

01:55:22.240 please answer my question

01:55:24.180 and stop obfuscating.

01:55:25.560 Stop evading.

01:55:26.620 Stop lying.

01:55:26.980 I will answer your question.

01:55:27.900 Shush.

01:55:28.160 Homosexuality is

01:55:29.900 biologically natural.

01:55:32.040 Like it's a natural part

01:55:33.720 of a homosexual

01:55:34.460 human's biology.

01:55:36.060 It's not something

01:55:37.000 that can change.

01:55:38.540 Your choice

01:55:39.400 to disagree

01:55:40.460 or be disgusted

01:55:41.980 by homosexuality

01:55:43.080 can change.

01:55:44.380 However,

01:55:45.520 your brother,

01:55:47.040 having sex

01:55:47.620 with your brother

01:55:48.260 is not a human necessity.

01:55:50.900 Even if you are

01:55:51.480 a homosexual,

01:55:52.200 you don't have to choose

01:55:52.960 to have sex

01:55:53.340 with your brother.

01:55:54.480 Therefore,

01:55:54.920 you are causing

01:55:56.080 emotional and physical

01:55:57.380 harm to your family

01:55:58.140 family.

01:55:59.380 However,

01:56:00.400 being gay

01:56:01.220 is not a choice.

01:56:02.600 Do you think

01:56:03.520 that being gay

01:56:03.980 is a choice?

01:56:04.260 So if it's the case

01:56:05.060 that is,

01:56:05.880 would you agree with me

01:56:07.340 the definition

01:56:07.840 of homosexuality

01:56:09.140 is attracted

01:56:09.820 to the same sex

01:56:10.680 for purposes

01:56:11.320 of sexual intercourse

01:56:12.360 or something like this?

01:56:13.320 Yes.

01:56:13.920 Great.

01:56:14.480 So then if it's the case

01:56:15.460 that you're attracted

01:56:16.020 to your twin brother,

01:56:16.960 is that a choice?

01:56:19.480 To act on that

01:56:20.520 attraction is a choice.

01:56:21.240 Well then I would say

01:56:21.920 the same thing

01:56:22.360 about homosexuality,

01:56:23.320 wouldn't I?

01:56:24.260 But it's not,

01:56:25.120 like you can choose

01:56:26.660 who specifically

01:56:28.140 you are attracted to

01:56:29.100 but the sex

01:56:29.780 of the person

01:56:30.160 you are attracted to

01:56:30.180 You can't choose

01:56:30.780 specifically who

01:56:31.640 you're attracted to.

01:56:32.420 That's insane.

01:56:33.160 Really?

01:56:34.020 You can choose

01:56:34.880 who you're attracted to.

01:56:36.120 You don't think

01:56:36.680 that there's any

01:56:37.200 personal preference

01:56:37.800 If you can just choose

01:56:38.600 who you're attracted to

01:56:39.420 then why can't

01:56:39.900 homosexuals just choose

01:56:40.860 to be attracted to women?

01:56:41.880 You can't

01:56:42.620 Can you answer that?

01:56:43.500 The specific person

01:56:44.380 Yeah, why can't

01:56:44.940 Not the general sex

01:56:46.560 of all people

01:56:47.660 you're attracted to.

01:56:48.900 You can choose

01:56:49.800 people you're attracted to.

01:56:52.500 Andrew,

01:56:53.120 some of them

01:56:54.060 but not all of them.

01:56:55.520 Like not the entirety

01:56:56.580 of the sex.

01:56:57.100 So if you're attracted

01:56:58.080 to your twin brother,

01:56:59.980 right,

01:57:00.300 an attraction

01:57:00.960 is something you can't help,

01:57:02.400 that's your justification

01:57:03.020 for homosexuality,

01:57:04.400 then what is

01:57:05.180 the immorality here?

01:57:06.420 I think that an attraction

01:57:07.960 to a specific sex

01:57:09.600 or gender

01:57:10.460 is something

01:57:11.220 you cannot help.

01:57:12.520 But an attraction

01:57:13.120 to a specific person

01:57:15.240 is something you can't help.

01:57:16.960 How?

01:57:18.760 How do you help

01:57:19.760 who you're attracted to?

01:57:20.820 How?

01:57:21.300 Really?

01:57:21.820 You've never been

01:57:22.660 attracted to someone

01:57:23.440 and been like,

01:57:23.960 ugh,

01:57:24.360 I just don't want,

01:57:25.520 like I don't like them?

01:57:26.360 Like you've never done that?

01:57:26.960 Do you realize

01:57:27.580 that you just refuted yourself?

01:57:28.920 How do you help

01:57:29.740 who you're attracted to?

01:57:30.620 You say you've never

01:57:31.220 been attracted to somebody

01:57:32.420 and then that already

01:57:33.880 presumes you're

01:57:34.560 attracted to them.

01:57:35.900 Yes,

01:57:36.240 you can choose

01:57:36.940 not to be attracted

01:57:37.600 to someone

01:57:37.940 who you were

01:57:38.460 at one point attracted to.

01:57:38.880 You can choose

01:57:39.420 who you're attracted to?

01:57:40.740 I mean,

01:57:41.100 I can.

01:57:41.500 Maybe you're just like,

01:57:42.380 maybe I'm just built different.

01:57:43.920 I don't know, man.

01:57:44.660 Okay,

01:57:45.000 do you think most people

01:57:46.140 can choose

01:57:47.000 who they're attracted to?

01:57:47.920 I think that the majority

01:57:48.820 of people

01:57:49.400 can decide

01:57:50.260 on a singular individual

01:57:52.080 whether or not

01:57:52.720 they're attracted to them.

01:57:53.660 Yes.

01:57:55.280 Are you serious?

01:57:56.180 Not based entirely,

01:57:57.360 like you can't decide

01:57:58.100 what sex you're attracted to.

01:57:59.040 Then why can't

01:57:59.720 homosexual men

01:58:00.720 just choose

01:58:01.680 to not be attracted

01:58:02.480 to all other men?

01:58:03.600 Did you just hear

01:58:04.060 what I said?

01:58:04.460 You cannot decide

01:58:05.260 what sex you are attracted to.

01:58:06.660 No, no, no.

01:58:06.980 They're attracted

01:58:07.380 to the sex.

01:58:08.360 I know.

01:58:09.020 They're attracted

01:58:09.380 to the sex,

01:58:09.940 but why can't

01:58:10.380 they just choose

01:58:11.040 to not be attracted

01:58:11.860 to every man?

01:58:13.360 You cannot choose

01:58:14.800 which sex

01:58:17.640 you're attracted to.

01:58:18.460 They're attracted

01:58:19.260 to the sex,

01:58:20.320 but they're choosing

01:58:21.280 not to be attracted

01:58:22.100 to every man.

01:58:23.660 I'm using sex

01:58:24.380 by gender.

01:58:25.200 I am too.

01:58:25.880 Listen,

01:58:26.320 so here,

01:58:28.000 look,

01:58:28.400 simple.

01:58:29.420 They're attracted

01:58:30.120 to only men.

01:58:31.400 This red herring.

01:58:31.880 But because

01:58:32.580 it's not a red herring.

01:58:33.980 Yes, it is.

01:58:34.600 No, it's not.

01:58:35.300 Yes, it is.

01:58:36.020 So they're able,

01:58:37.160 I'm internally critiquing,

01:58:38.620 I'm internally critiquing

01:58:40.220 bodily autonomy.

01:58:41.400 Go ahead.

01:58:41.680 Okay.

01:58:41.960 And all you do is run.

01:58:43.000 So the thing is,

01:58:43.540 it's like,

01:58:43.820 look,

01:58:43.960 this is super simple.

01:58:45.560 Why couldn't you be attracted

01:58:47.040 to an entire sex,

01:58:48.800 right?

01:58:49.140 But since you say

01:58:50.100 individual attraction,

01:58:51.500 right,

01:58:51.960 is something which can be helped,

01:58:53.340 then you're only attracted

01:58:54.600 to males as a homosexual.

01:58:56.320 But shouldn't you be able

01:58:57.100 to control being attracted

01:58:58.280 to every single individual male

01:59:00.460 who is in that homosexual category?

01:59:02.840 No,

01:59:03.060 because individual attraction

01:59:04.220 is different than your sexuality.

01:59:07.020 It's a specific person

01:59:08.680 versus an entire sex.

01:59:10.780 Yeah,

01:59:10.980 so then you individualize them

01:59:13.040 and each individual person

01:59:15.020 in that sex category,

01:59:16.740 you choose not to be attracted to.

01:59:19.160 No,

01:59:19.480 that would be impossible.

01:59:20.940 Why?

01:59:21.980 Because it's biological.

01:59:23.540 So then,

01:59:24.520 if you can't,

01:59:25.260 if you can't help

01:59:26.700 who you're attracted to,

01:59:28.060 that's the justification

01:59:28.900 for homosexuality,

01:59:29.960 why couldn't that be

01:59:30.600 the justification

01:59:31.080 for an incestuous relationship?

01:59:32.100 Because you don't understand

01:59:32.940 the difference between

01:59:33.460 a sex and an individual.

01:59:35.040 You can choose

01:59:36.220 the individuals

01:59:38.340 you decide

01:59:39.860 you want to be attracted

01:59:41.160 or not attracted to,

01:59:42.360 but you can't decide

01:59:43.920 the entire sex

01:59:45.340 you decide to be attracted to.

01:59:46.120 No,

01:59:46.260 you're attracted

01:59:46.740 to the entire sex,

01:59:47.800 but why couldn't they just say

01:59:49.000 that they're not attracted

01:59:49.900 to each and every individual

01:59:51.400 in that sex

01:59:52.160 and choose that?

01:59:52.840 Because that's the entire sex.

01:59:54.700 If it's all of them,

01:59:55.700 then that's still the sex.

01:59:56.600 If it's every individual,

01:59:58.120 then that's the sex.

01:59:59.000 Then your argument's

02:00:00.060 circular the other way too.

02:00:01.340 It's not circular the other way.

02:00:02.060 Yeah,

02:00:02.280 they only have one brother.

02:00:03.500 Your argument is circular the other way.

02:00:04.080 If you only have one brother

02:00:04.900 and you're only attracted

02:00:05.800 to your brother,

02:00:06.880 right?

02:00:07.220 Or you're only attracted

02:00:08.100 to your family members

02:00:09.080 or you're only attracted

02:00:10.200 to that.

02:00:10.740 Let each other finish.

02:00:11.460 If it's the case

02:00:12.060 that you're only attracted

02:00:12.860 to your family members,

02:00:14.120 right?

02:00:14.820 How can you help that?

02:00:16.640 What version of sexuality

02:00:19.000 is one where you are

02:00:20.520 only attracted to your family members?

02:00:22.020 Actually,

02:00:22.380 there is a version of it.

02:00:23.320 Would you like Brian

02:00:23.840 to pull it up?

02:00:24.500 What the fuck is that?

02:00:26.600 Pull it up,

02:00:27.100 Brian.

02:00:27.620 What do you call a person

02:00:28.780 who's only attracted

02:00:29.560 to family members?

02:00:32.380 An incestophile?

02:00:33.620 I think so.

02:00:34.480 An incestophile?

02:00:35.440 Well,

02:00:35.700 we'll find out.

02:00:36.560 I mean,

02:00:36.840 that sounds like

02:00:37.320 a mental illness

02:00:38.100 above anything.

02:00:38.860 Yeah,

02:00:39.120 I'm sorry,

02:00:39.960 but you have to make

02:00:40.680 a justification

02:00:41.180 for why two twin brothers

02:00:42.760 couldn't have sex

02:00:43.660 with each other

02:00:44.280 and why that would be immoral

02:00:45.840 based on your bodily autonomy

02:00:47.700 argument that everybody

02:00:48.580 should have bodily autonomy.

02:00:49.880 You have to demonstrate

02:00:50.640 the harm.

02:00:51.300 Yes,

02:00:51.600 there's still bodily autonomy,

02:00:52.880 but you would be harming

02:00:53.600 your entire family

02:00:54.400 as well as yourself.

02:00:55.260 I have to make

02:00:55.620 the same argument

02:00:56.440 for homosexuality.

02:00:57.800 Yes,

02:00:58.060 but homosexuality

02:00:58.740 is not a choice.

02:00:59.480 Fucking your brother is.

02:01:00.640 Do you want the definition?

02:01:02.240 Or not the definition,

02:01:03.560 the term.

02:01:04.060 I believe this is the term.

02:01:05.780 I don't know

02:01:06.320 if this rings a bell.

02:01:09.040 Consanguin...

02:01:09.440 Consanguin...

02:01:11.040 Consang...

02:01:12.860 Consanguinous?

02:01:15.700 Consanguinamorous.

02:01:16.600 Yeah.

02:01:17.080 A person who,

02:01:17.800 in a consensual romantic

02:01:18.980 or sexual relationship

02:01:20.380 with an adult blood relative.

02:01:24.880 Consanguinamorous.

02:01:25.480 Your family...

02:01:25.800 Okay.

02:01:26.620 I try my best.

02:01:27.560 Your family all...

02:01:28.520 Can you...

02:01:28.900 Wait,

02:01:29.180 I want to know,

02:01:29.840 what percentage of the population

02:01:31.320 is consanguinamorous?

02:01:32.580 Let's try this.

02:01:33.240 You nailed it.

02:01:34.820 Yeah.

02:01:35.420 Is this a large group

02:01:36.900 of people?

02:01:37.220 What percentage?

02:01:38.140 Yeah.

02:01:38.420 I'm sure it's very small.

02:01:39.180 It's probably small.

02:01:39.760 It's got to be.

02:01:40.200 So then why are we talking

02:01:41.240 about this?

02:01:41.920 Because we're testing...

02:01:42.540 No, actually,

02:01:43.300 I want to...

02:01:43.920 I want to finish it.

02:01:44.700 I'm almost done.

02:01:45.140 Redirect the conversation

02:01:46.020 back to general bodily autonomy.

02:01:46.060 We can,

02:01:46.580 and I'm almost done.

02:01:47.400 I just want to ask

02:01:48.120 one last question.

02:01:48.700 I think it's weird

02:01:49.340 that we've been so focused

02:01:50.140 on these two twin incest crimes.

02:01:52.000 Just to be fair,

02:01:52.900 I searched her thing up.

02:01:54.960 So globally,

02:01:56.880 it says about 20%

02:01:58.280 of the world's population

02:01:59.300 lives in communities

02:02:00.860 where consanguinous marriage

02:02:03.260 is preferred

02:02:04.500 with a rate of 20%

02:02:05.960 to 50%

02:02:06.540 in parts of the Middle East,

02:02:08.040 North Africa,

02:02:08.700 and South Asia.

02:02:09.200 They're all immoral, right?

02:02:10.220 So in those countries,

02:02:11.260 it's...

02:02:11.700 Well, I mean,

02:02:12.440 if they're...

02:02:13.160 They're all immoral, right?

02:02:15.100 Hold on.

02:02:16.160 Can I ask you a question?

02:02:18.220 Me?

02:02:18.800 Yeah.

02:02:19.100 Yeah, sure.

02:02:19.640 I mean, wait.

02:02:20.720 I want to go back

02:02:21.580 to more research on this.

02:02:23.280 I feel like I can't give you

02:02:24.360 a good answer

02:02:24.980 because I don't really know

02:02:26.380 anything about it.

02:02:27.660 Well, there's also

02:02:28.200 cousin marriage worldwide.

02:02:29.640 Yeah, because are we talking

02:02:30.520 about the cultural tradition

02:02:31.900 of marrying your cousins

02:02:32.960 or having incest

02:02:34.440 with a sibling

02:02:35.160 in a society

02:02:35.960 that does not accept

02:02:37.120 Well, here,

02:02:37.380 I'll just make it simple.

02:02:38.600 I'm just going to make it

02:02:39.240 super easy, the question.

02:02:41.460 Your whole family dies

02:02:42.460 in a tragic accident

02:02:43.420 except your twin brother.

02:02:45.140 So now you can't destroy them

02:02:46.380 emotionally

02:02:46.880 because they're all dead.

02:02:48.000 Is it okay

02:02:48.840 or moral

02:02:49.720 then

02:02:50.400 to have a twin brother

02:02:51.960 incestuous relationship

02:02:54.060 based on your principle

02:02:55.020 of bodily autonomy?

02:02:55.960 I guess if you're not

02:02:56.620 hurting anyone,

02:02:57.840 including yourself,

02:02:58.700 then sure.

02:02:59.320 But I don't think

02:03:00.660 that this negates

02:03:01.900 the basic belief

02:03:03.300 that bodily autonomy

02:03:04.480 is a human right

02:03:05.760 because I do think

02:03:06.800 the consequences

02:03:07.520 of living in a society

02:03:08.640 where bodily autonomy

02:03:10.240 doesn't exist

02:03:11.300 are far greater.

02:03:13.120 I mean,

02:03:13.360 if nobody has a right

02:03:14.340 to bodily autonomy,

02:03:15.540 then at any point

02:03:16.700 any of us

02:03:17.640 would be able

02:03:18.240 to just fuck with each other

02:03:19.440 and physically harm each other

02:03:20.780 without consequences.

02:03:20.920 But don't you want to restrict

02:03:21.760 bodily autonomy constantly?

02:03:23.420 What?

02:03:23.820 Don't you want to restrict

02:03:24.520 bodily autonomy constantly?

02:03:25.760 In what universe

02:03:26.360 do I want to restrict

02:03:27.020 bodily autonomy?

02:03:27.040 Well, I don't know.

02:03:27.540 Did you support the lockdowns?

02:03:29.620 Did I support the lockdowns?

02:03:30.280 Well, that again

02:03:31.520 is an exception

02:03:32.520 in the case

02:03:33.480 of creating harm

02:03:34.740 to yourself or others.

02:03:36.180 Those are the two exceptions.

02:03:37.460 Wasn't that a subjective harm?

02:03:39.560 Millions of people died.

02:03:40.580 Is that subjective to you?

02:03:41.360 Well, I mean,

02:03:41.780 it's a subjective harm

02:03:42.700 that you lock people

02:03:43.480 in their homes

02:03:44.060 or lock down their businesses.

02:03:45.540 Millions of people died, though.

02:03:46.680 It's not subjective

02:03:47.320 that those people died.

02:03:48.380 They objectively died.

02:03:49.220 Yeah, but I mean...

02:03:50.100 Did you know anyone

02:03:50.800 who lost anyone during COVID?

02:03:52.360 Yeah, of course.

02:03:52.960 It was brutal, man.

02:03:53.880 Yeah, of course.

02:03:54.060 But the thing is...

02:03:54.580 How could you argue that we...

02:03:55.460 How could it be bodily...

02:03:56.100 So you don't really believe

02:03:57.060 in a principle

02:03:57.560 of bodily autonomy.

02:03:58.980 But it's foreseeable risk.

02:04:00.860 Like, there's a foreseeable risk

02:04:02.240 that if you go outside

02:04:03.340 while there is

02:04:03.900 a contagious, deadly disease

02:04:05.200 and you continue to spread

02:04:06.400 that contagious, deadly disease,

02:04:07.960 you could foreseeably

02:04:09.200 cause bodily...

02:04:09.800 So bodily autonomy

02:04:10.720 should be restricted

02:04:12.520 as long as we can justify

02:04:14.740 that there's some sort of harm

02:04:16.120 to other people.

02:04:17.460 Is that right?

02:04:18.720 Yes, to an extent.

02:04:19.960 To an extent.

02:04:20.640 I think that there are

02:04:21.200 certain exceptions,

02:04:22.140 but I think on a general principle,

02:04:23.600 yeah, I agree with that.

02:04:24.620 So why shouldn't we stop women

02:04:25.900 from having an abortion

02:04:26.720 if half of us perceive

02:04:27.820 the harm of it?

02:04:29.520 Well, because you haven't proven

02:04:30.620 that that's a legitimate harm.

02:04:31.480 Why do we need to?

02:04:32.260 All we have to do

02:04:32.700 is perceive it that way.

02:04:34.520 No, you have to prove

02:04:35.420 that there's a legitimate harm.

02:04:36.180 Then why do we care about this?

02:04:37.440 Forseeable risk,

02:04:37.980 like, on a legal sense,

02:04:39.540 you have to be able to prove

02:04:40.640 that there's a foreseeable risk.

02:04:41.860 Then why do we care about you

02:04:42.880 You can't just go based off vibes.

02:04:44.040 Then why is it that we care about

02:04:45.420 you hurting your entire family

02:04:46.860 because it hurts yourself again?

02:04:48.660 Because that's just perception.

02:04:49.740 Because there was a proven

02:04:50.640 foreseeable risk.

02:04:51.520 Like, legally,

02:04:52.000 there was a proven foreseeable risk

02:04:53.500 that going outside

02:04:54.760 could potentially cause bodily harm.

02:04:56.560 And by the way...

02:04:57.260 Isn't going outside

02:04:58.220 always potentially something

02:04:59.220 that can cause bodily harm?

02:05:00.500 I mean, I was also in,

02:05:02.920 like, alive during COVID.

02:05:04.240 People still left their houses

02:05:05.360 all the time.

02:05:06.060 People threw parties.

02:05:07.500 Like, people did tons of stuff

02:05:08.960 during COVID.

02:05:09.200 They resisted the state-sponsored bullshit.

02:05:13.080 That's true.

02:05:13.600 But it wasn't a mandate.

02:05:14.840 Like, it wasn't forcing you

02:05:15.880 to be inside.

02:05:15.980 They did force businesses

02:05:17.220 to shut down.

02:05:18.020 Yes, they did.

02:05:18.580 Okay, well, you could still

02:05:19.520 go outside, though.

02:05:20.840 And progressives wanted

02:05:22.260 COVID passports.

02:05:23.680 Where are your paper checkpoints?

02:05:25.700 Right?

02:05:26.020 Very fascist dystopian.

02:05:27.580 So that you can't spread a disease

02:05:29.540 that was killing people.

02:05:31.060 So then restricting...

02:05:32.080 Do you think that you should

02:05:32.540 just be allowed to spread a disease

02:05:33.900 and kill as many people as possible?

02:05:35.160 Well, I think that your principle

02:05:36.360 of bodily autonomy

02:05:37.540 is making less and less sense

02:05:39.140 because it seems like

02:05:40.060 as long as we subjectively can claim

02:05:42.020 that you're going to do something

02:05:43.780 which we perceive as being harmful,

02:05:45.480 then we can restrict

02:05:47.200 your bodily autonomy.

02:05:48.260 No, it's not subjectively can claim.

02:05:49.780 It's objectively can claim.

02:05:51.220 Oh, we can objectively claim it.

02:05:51.800 As long as you can objectively claim

02:05:53.480 that there is either

02:05:54.500 foreseeable risk

02:05:56.040 of causing bodily harm

02:05:57.840 or you are actively causing bodily harm

02:06:00.480 to yourself or others,

02:06:02.560 then an individual

02:06:03.920 deserves bodily autonomy.

02:06:05.540 Then why don't we restrict

02:06:06.600 swimming pools?

02:06:08.360 Why would we restrict...

02:06:09.180 Because there's a massive

02:06:10.400 foreseeable risk

02:06:11.220 that you're going to cause harm

02:06:12.380 to yourself,

02:06:13.260 your family,

02:06:13.720 or other people

02:06:14.320 who come swimming.

02:06:15.060 I don't think there's

02:06:15.640 a massive...

02:06:16.160 Also, that's why we have lifeguards.

02:06:17.760 There's a much bigger chance

02:06:19.660 that your percentage

02:06:21.260 as an individual

02:06:22.520 would die probably

02:06:23.480 in a swimming pool

02:06:24.400 than from COVID-19.

02:06:25.520 But swimming pools

02:06:26.020 are voluntary.

02:06:26.800 We're not forcing everyone

02:06:27.640 to go into a swimming pool.

02:06:29.140 This is so funny to me.

02:06:31.540 I thought it was about

02:06:32.340 bodily autonomy,

02:06:33.520 not about anything else.

02:06:35.780 Yes.

02:06:36.280 Swimming pools are voluntary.

02:06:36.980 And you want to restrict

02:06:37.940 bodily autonomy.

02:06:38.740 If you forced everyone

02:06:39.140 to go into a swimming pool,

02:06:40.620 then yeah, that'd be fine.

02:06:41.400 Then why wasn't it voluntary

02:06:42.400 for me to walk into

02:06:43.380 a fucking shop

02:06:44.180 if I wanted to

02:06:44.860 without a mask on?

02:06:45.720 Well, the shop

02:06:46.240 voluntarily chose to close.

02:06:47.640 If you wanted to open

02:06:48.240 your own shop...

02:06:48.260 They didn't.

02:06:48.780 The state mandated

02:06:49.660 that they close.

02:06:50.700 Oh, okay.

02:06:51.240 Well, that sucks, but...

02:06:52.660 Restriction of bodily autonomy.

02:06:54.280 Like, all of your principles

02:06:55.400 are completely fucking incoherent.

02:06:57.720 They're all incoherent.

02:06:59.180 No, I'm not.

02:07:00.240 No, it's not.

02:07:00.820 There's still a foreseeable risk.

02:07:02.180 There was a foreseeable risk

02:07:03.020 that people were going to die.

02:07:04.020 There's foreseeable risk

02:07:04.620 with everything.

02:07:05.200 I mean, but also, Andrew,

02:07:06.220 like, if you were to open

02:07:06.980 a store during COVID

02:07:08.100 and a bunch of people

02:07:08.860 went to your store,

02:07:09.820 got COVID, and died,

02:07:11.380 they would sue

02:07:11.920 the fuck out of you.

02:07:12.740 I think a lot of those

02:07:13.360 businesses would be closed

02:07:14.600 Isn't it people's choice?

02:07:15.940 Isn't it people's choice?

02:07:17.980 Just like the swimming pool?

02:07:19.800 Just like the swimming pool?

02:07:20.840 Going into a restaurant

02:07:22.100 and opening yourself

02:07:22.860 to foreseeable risk?

02:07:23.460 Yes, and lots of people

02:07:24.160 chose to do that.

02:07:24.800 And then why is it

02:07:26.880 that you just five seconds ago

02:07:28.380 said that these restrictions,

02:07:29.740 and the lockdowns

02:07:30.440 were totally fine

02:07:31.220 from the state mandating

02:07:32.220 what people do voluntarily?

02:07:34.100 Brian, look up how many people

02:07:35.140 died during COVID.

02:07:36.580 You just said

02:07:37.360 the voluntary nature

02:07:38.800 of swimming pools,

02:07:39.620 why we don't restrict them

02:07:40.500 even though they cause

02:07:41.080 bodily harm.

02:07:42.240 Why is the voluntary nature

02:07:43.460 of people engaging

02:07:44.600 in society during COVID

02:07:45.900 not the same?

02:07:47.200 Because you don't

02:07:47.540 voluntarily spread disease.

02:07:49.540 You can't be like,

02:07:50.280 hey, I'm not going to

02:07:51.240 spread disease to that guy

02:07:52.740 because he's immunocompromised.

02:07:54.860 That guy had the choice

02:07:56.320 to stay home

02:07:57.080 or go out, right?

02:07:58.040 But you live with other people.

02:07:59.520 That was the issue.

02:08:00.360 If some members

02:08:01.060 of a family went out

02:08:01.980 and then some left

02:08:03.000 and then came back

02:08:04.180 and exposed their immunocompromised

02:08:06.480 family members

02:08:07.180 to the illness,

02:08:07.860 they could die.

02:08:08.620 Then the problem you have

02:08:09.720 again with...

02:08:10.620 Like, dude, COVID sucked.

02:08:10.860 It was a bummer

02:08:11.540 and it was horrible

02:08:12.160 for businesses.

02:08:13.000 This is so funny.

02:08:13.600 I'd rather have to stay inside

02:08:15.580 or go to a park

02:08:17.000 or go to a public space

02:08:18.720 than risk killing my grandma

02:08:21.580 and the other immunocompromised

02:08:22.780 people in my life.

02:08:23.520 Should people

02:08:24.060 who all voluntarily...

02:08:26.240 But that's why

02:08:26.780 the shot was voluntary.

02:08:27.820 If people are always

02:08:28.800 volunteering...

02:08:29.580 Well, progressives

02:08:30.420 didn't want it to be.

02:08:31.240 How many people died

02:08:31.340 from COVID?

02:08:32.020 Seven million.

02:08:32.880 So seven million people

02:08:34.020 died, Andrew.

02:08:34.780 Yeah, how many people

02:08:35.440 die every year

02:08:36.020 of the common flu?

02:08:37.440 Sure.

02:08:38.260 You don't think

02:08:38.680 that's enough

02:08:39.080 of a foreseeable risk?

02:08:40.500 Let's see how many people

02:08:41.200 die from the common flu.

02:08:42.280 Wait, are we talking

02:08:43.140 U.S. or just...

02:08:44.900 The one I provided,

02:08:46.600 the seven million,

02:08:47.240 I believe that was worldwide.

02:08:48.700 And that was for how many years?

02:08:49.840 Let's do just U.S. for both.

02:08:51.300 Hold on.

02:08:53.240 Just U.S. for both.

02:08:54.180 One sec.

02:08:54.540 Yeah, because we're

02:08:55.340 talking about the U.S.

02:08:56.140 I mean, other countries

02:08:57.180 don't have the same access

02:08:58.520 to medical health.

02:09:00.460 Some of them

02:09:00.800 have much better.

02:09:01.640 Yeah, I know.

02:09:02.380 So globally,

02:09:03.820 the estimates

02:09:04.560 that seasonal flu causes

02:09:05.780 about 290,000

02:09:09.460 to 650,000 deaths

02:09:12.120 each year

02:09:12.960 That seems like

02:09:14.820 a lot less than 7 million.

02:09:16.340 That's worldwide

02:09:16.800 and that seems like

02:09:17.420 a lot less...

02:09:18.000 Wait, can we do U.S.?

02:09:19.140 Yeah, calm down.

02:09:19.800 Uh-oh.

02:09:20.020 I'll do U.S.

02:09:20.800 There's no uh-oh.

02:09:21.400 Well-oh.

02:09:22.460 Andrew, I think you're wrong.

02:09:23.500 That's a foreseeable risk,

02:09:24.600 isn't it?

02:09:25.500 I don't think statistically

02:09:26.560 it's a high enough

02:09:27.200 foreseeable risk.

02:09:27.840 How many people

02:09:28.340 get the flu every year?

02:09:29.520 Wait a second.

02:09:30.520 How many people

02:09:31.320 do you think

02:09:31.740 7 million people

02:09:32.600 is as a percentage

02:09:33.340 of the global population?

02:09:36.900 Isn't the global population

02:09:38.120 like 8.2 billion?

02:09:39.120 Uh-huh.

02:09:39.720 Yeah.

02:09:39.900 There's a bit of a range

02:09:40.940 but 21 for 2022, 2023,

02:09:44.640 the CDC estimates

02:09:45.540 about 21,000 deaths

02:09:47.520 due to influenza

02:09:48.320 in the USA.

02:09:49.740 Okay.

02:09:50.080 And then you wanted me

02:09:50.740 to look something up.

02:09:51.440 Yeah, but hang on, hang on.

02:09:52.360 Wait, no.

02:09:52.820 Let's keep going.

02:09:53.180 You got to do that

02:09:54.240 not during the COVID lockdowns.

02:09:56.600 That's the important part.

02:09:58.340 Wait, no.

02:09:58.960 Let's keep going.

02:09:59.520 Because during the COVID lockdowns

02:10:00.780 they reduce significantly.

02:10:02.040 You want me to check

02:10:02.620 like the 2010s?

02:10:02.800 Oh, wow.

02:10:03.020 Isn't that nice?

02:10:04.800 Yeah.

02:10:05.160 Yeah, true.

02:10:05.720 If you lock people

02:10:06.360 in their houses

02:10:06.840 they won't spread any illness.

02:10:08.560 That's true.

02:10:08.880 Yes, that was the point.

02:10:09.800 There was multiple illnesses

02:10:11.220 going around

02:10:11.920 that were subjecting people

02:10:13.300 to a serious risk.

02:10:13.960 So what percentage

02:10:15.060 is reasonable

02:10:16.700 for us to implement

02:10:17.940 against bodily autonomy

02:10:19.460 when it leads to death?

02:10:20.580 There's 7 million people yearly.

02:10:22.180 Well, I think you have

02:10:22.800 to ask a lawyer, Andrew.

02:10:23.700 I'm asking you.

02:10:24.300 Because there is actually

02:10:24.680 a legal president for that.

02:10:25.680 I'm asking you.

02:10:26.580 Well, I'm not a lawyer.

02:10:27.320 You should ask a legitimate lawyer.

02:10:28.140 I need to ask a lawyer

02:10:29.040 how many people you think

02:10:30.220 it's legitimate

02:10:30.800 to restrict their bodily autonomy for?

02:10:32.920 Well, it's a law.

02:10:34.080 Like, it's a literal law.

02:10:35.220 You don't base your morals on law.

02:10:36.600 You're basing them

02:10:37.060 on bodily autonomy.

02:10:38.200 No.

02:10:38.980 I'm basing it on the concept of

02:10:40.640 I'm basing bodily autonomy

02:10:41.780 on the concept

02:10:42.320 of foreseeable risk,

02:10:44.220 which is a law.

02:10:45.640 So why would you ask me that?

02:10:46.640 So $650,000 a year

02:10:48.160 isn't enough

02:10:48.940 of a foreseeable risk?

02:10:50.540 Worldwide?

02:10:51.240 Yeah.

02:10:51.620 I would say no

02:10:52.580 if there's 8.2 billion people.

02:10:54.280 Why 7 million

02:10:55.100 if there's 8.2 billion?

02:10:57.060 Do you not know

02:10:57.900 the difference

02:10:58.280 between $650,000 and 7 million?

02:10:59.220 Yeah, I'm trying to figure out

02:11:00.180 where the threshold breaker here is.

02:11:01.500 It's a lot bigger.

02:11:02.380 Well, it's not up to me.

02:11:04.460 Well, but I'm asking

02:11:05.300 because of bodily autonomy.

02:11:06.600 You support this stuff.

02:11:08.940 Yes, I support

02:11:09.980 saving people's lives.

02:11:11.240 Yeah, so what's

02:11:12.160 where's the threshold

02:11:13.000 where we can lock people down

02:11:14.500 and restrict the bodily autonomy?

02:11:16.420 Well, there is a legal threshold.

02:11:17.620 What is your threshold?

02:11:19.380 I don't know.

02:11:19.820 You don't have one.

02:11:20.580 Well, it's based on a legal precedent.

02:11:22.420 Why should every single

02:11:23.460 individual person

02:11:24.320 just get to decide,

02:11:25.180 I think it's this.

02:11:26.200 I'm not a lawyer.

02:11:27.060 This is so ridiculous.

02:11:27.980 It's not ridiculous, Andrew.

02:11:29.640 What is the point

02:11:30.440 of asking me

02:11:31.360 a legal definition

02:11:33.820 when I'm not a lawyer?

02:11:34.940 What do you guys

02:11:35.260 think about this one?

02:11:36.400 Black people can be racist

02:11:37.560 towards white people.

02:11:38.480 Would you guys like to do that one?

02:11:39.220 Yeah, I'm fine with that.

02:11:40.060 Sure.

02:11:40.400 Okay.

02:11:41.160 Yeah, I think that

02:11:42.500 before we move on,

02:11:44.100 should we define racism?

02:11:46.520 Yeah.

02:11:47.060 How do you define racism?

02:11:48.580 Yeah, we should just

02:11:49.440 get the semantics

02:11:50.000 out of the way

02:11:50.420 so we can actually

02:11:50.880 have a conversation.

02:11:52.700 I'm sorry.

02:11:53.400 It keeps annoying me.

02:11:55.020 So I would do the,

02:11:57.000 I have a more

02:11:57.740 classical definition.

02:11:59.160 Okay, let's hear it.

02:11:59.940 Which would be

02:12:00.560 the hatred or bigotry

02:12:02.560 of an entire race.

02:12:04.300 Is that it?

02:12:06.440 Hold on.

02:12:09.060 So the hatred or bigotry

02:12:10.620 of an entire race

02:12:12.200 on the basis of what?

02:12:14.280 Race?

02:12:14.480 Or most of the race.

02:12:15.860 On the basis of race, yes?

02:12:17.620 Yeah.

02:12:18.120 Okay.

02:12:19.640 And that's your only

02:12:20.540 definition of racism?

02:12:22.720 Yeah, I think that yes.

02:12:25.400 Okay, cool.

02:12:26.760 Do you mind if I pull up

02:12:27.880 the dictionary definition

02:12:28.740 of racism?

02:12:30.280 Well, you can pull up

02:12:31.260 whatever you want, sure.

02:12:32.220 Okay, well, so there's,

02:12:33.800 I think there's two

02:12:34.680 main types of racism

02:12:35.860 that are involved

02:12:37.800 in what you just said.

02:12:38.920 So what Andrew

02:12:39.640 just described perfectly

02:12:41.060 was interpersonal racism,

02:12:43.980 which is prejudice,

02:12:45.440 discriminatory actions

02:12:46.900 between individuals

02:12:48.180 based on their hatred

02:12:49.440 of the entire race.

02:12:51.620 And then there's also

02:12:52.840 what we see in this country,

02:12:54.740 which is systemic

02:12:55.640 and structural racism,

02:12:57.520 which is, again,

02:12:58.700 since we have to define

02:12:59.620 systems a complex system

02:13:01.880 of laws, policies,

02:13:03.340 and practices

02:13:04.360 that create and perpetuate

02:13:06.520 racial inequality.

02:13:08.160 So this would be

02:13:09.240 essentially the patriarchy,

02:13:11.620 but on the basis of race,

02:13:13.340 if we're going back

02:13:14.060 to our definition

02:13:14.720 of the patriarchy.

02:13:16.520 Now, where I agree

02:13:20.000 with Andrew is that

02:13:21.900 anyone can be

02:13:23.260 interpersonally racist.

02:13:24.300 Okay, well, then

02:13:24.840 that's the end

02:13:25.160 of that prompt.

02:13:25.680 No, it's not

02:13:26.520 because there are

02:13:27.300 multiple forms of racism.

02:13:28.840 What's the prompt,

02:13:29.600 Brian?

02:13:29.620 And the power...

02:13:30.640 Read the prompt.

02:13:31.260 Blacks can be racist

02:13:32.140 towards white.

02:13:32.720 I mean, dude,

02:13:33.280 we agreed on the last prompt

02:13:34.240 and we still talked about it

02:13:35.140 for like another hour,

02:13:36.260 so let's get into it.

02:13:37.300 Well, hang on, hang on.

02:13:38.100 I just want to make sure...

02:13:39.100 Yes.

02:13:40.080 ...that the...

02:13:40.800 Can you read the prompt, Brian?

02:13:41.940 Yes.

02:13:42.520 Black people can be racist

02:13:44.220 towards white people.

02:13:44.400 And you're agreeing

02:13:45.060 that that's the case?

02:13:45.980 I just read that.

02:13:46.580 Okay.

02:13:46.880 Yes.

02:13:47.280 Shall we move

02:13:47.740 to a different prompt?

02:13:48.480 No, I think we should

02:13:49.280 continue with this one.

02:13:50.040 I actually really want to...

02:13:50.620 Well, if you both agree, then.

02:13:51.200 It was the one

02:13:51.700 that I thought

02:13:52.040 was the most interesting.

02:13:53.200 I mean, I guess...

02:13:53.580 So you want to talk

02:13:54.000 about systemic racism?

02:13:55.240 We can.

02:13:55.460 Go ahead.

02:13:55.940 I guess if you don't

02:13:56.240 want to move on...

02:13:57.080 If you want to move

02:13:57.620 on to another prompt,

02:13:58.220 we can,

02:13:58.620 but all I will say is

02:13:59.900 although blacks can be

02:14:01.100 racist towards whites,

02:14:02.260 the system that perpetuates

02:14:03.780 inequality works in favor

02:14:05.700 of white people.

02:14:06.820 So while, yes,

02:14:07.340 it might hurt your feelings,

02:14:08.720 it doesn't have a broader

02:14:10.000 impact on your life

02:14:11.120 like genuinely decreasing

02:14:13.740 your quality of life

02:14:14.760 and standard of living.

02:14:15.680 It's not backed

02:14:16.240 by any power.

02:14:17.220 Why don't I read

02:14:17.880 some of the other prompts?

02:14:19.040 And if you want to return

02:14:19.860 to this one, we can.

02:14:21.900 Okay.

02:14:22.360 So we have feminism

02:14:24.760 enslaved women

02:14:25.960 instead of liberating them.

02:14:27.160 That one I think

02:14:27.700 is hilarious.

02:14:28.360 I would be done

02:14:28.740 with that one.

02:14:29.320 Women just as violent

02:14:30.360 as men, if not more.

02:14:32.220 Problems with democracy.

02:14:33.840 Force doctrine.

02:14:34.640 The descriptor...

02:14:35.100 Let's do women

02:14:35.440 more violent.

02:14:36.580 Mm-hmm.

02:14:37.820 Okay.

02:14:38.160 It sounded like

02:14:39.700 you wanted the

02:14:40.340 feminism enslaved women.

02:14:40.860 I'll do either one of those.

02:14:41.960 I like both of them.

02:14:42.480 Okay, so we'll do...

02:14:44.220 Let's do feminism enslaved women

02:14:48.240 instead of liberating them.

02:14:49.320 Or are you really keen

02:14:50.320 on the...

02:14:51.940 I don't care either way.

02:14:53.400 Okay, we'll do both.

02:14:54.000 Neither one matters,

02:14:55.000 but I would at 5.30

02:14:56.640 just real quick

02:14:57.600 take a smoke break

02:14:58.320 and then get back to this

02:14:59.160 while you take some super chats.

02:15:00.360 I'm team.

02:15:01.460 I'm team.

02:15:02.080 The one thing

02:15:02.880 that we can agree on today

02:15:04.140 is the smoke breaks.

02:15:05.200 I love it.

02:15:05.320 Can you guys do it

02:15:06.220 simultaneously though?

02:15:07.620 No!

02:15:07.780 No, because part of it

02:15:08.620 is a break from the debate.

02:15:09.200 I'll be super quick.

02:15:11.220 What's that?

02:15:12.000 No, because part of it

02:15:12.900 is you get a break

02:15:13.480 from the debate,

02:15:14.080 some fresh air,

02:15:14.780 clear your head,

02:15:15.320 come back,

02:15:15.960 be locked in.

02:15:16.740 Yeah, I'll take 5 minutes.

02:15:17.440 Yeah, so what we'll do...

02:15:18.260 Can we each get a 5?

02:15:20.180 You'll have 5,

02:15:21.140 but Nick can bring you

02:15:23.140 somewhere else.

02:15:24.600 Oh, yeah.

02:15:25.360 Okay, just go with Nick.

02:15:27.260 You got it.

02:15:28.140 Yep.

02:15:28.980 All right, guys.

02:15:29.560 They're taking a brief break.

02:15:32.160 Brief break.

02:15:32.840 They're each...

02:15:33.840 Smokey man bad,

02:15:36.400 smokey girl bad.

02:15:37.800 They're just going to

02:15:38.620 take a quick smoke break.

02:15:40.360 So really quick, guys.

02:15:42.580 As soon as they come back,

02:15:43.600 we'll actually do

02:15:44.420 a Q&A session super quick.

02:15:46.520 So if you guys want

02:15:48.480 to get in a question,

02:15:53.800 streamlabs.com slash

02:15:54.840 whatever, streamlabs.

02:15:55.800 All right,

02:15:56.020 now that they're gone,

02:15:56.800 chat.

02:15:58.020 Now that they're gone,

02:15:59.800 what do you guys think?

02:16:01.200 Who's winning the debate?

02:16:02.700 Should I do a poll chat?

02:16:03.720 What do you think?

02:16:05.400 Should we do a poll chat?

02:16:08.500 Bran Wolf,

02:16:09.440 thank you for the soup chat.

02:16:11.620 Baby,

02:16:12.100 thank you for the soup chat.

02:16:13.040 Appreciate it.

02:16:13.540 Thank you, guys.

02:16:14.700 Couple quick messages.

02:16:16.220 Guys,

02:16:16.480 if you want to support

02:16:17.080 the show,

02:16:18.580 you want to support

02:16:19.080 the stream,

02:16:19.980 and you want to do it

02:16:20.760 without these platforms

02:16:21.720 taking their cut,

02:16:22.540 YouTube takes 30%,

02:16:23.840 by the way,

02:16:24.600 of all super chats.

02:16:25.260 So for example,

02:16:26.640 if you super chat 100,

02:16:28.720 YouTube takes 30.

02:16:29.640 You super chat 200 like this,

02:16:32.460 YouTube takes 60.

02:16:33.880 And then if you're doing

02:16:34.600 it on an Apple device,

02:16:36.400 Apple takes 30% on top also.

02:16:39.460 So if you super chat 200,

02:16:41.560 they're taking 100 of it,

02:16:42.680 basically.

02:16:43.820 So streamlabs.com slash whatever.

02:16:47.460 Get your Q&As in, guys.

02:16:49.280 Also, guys,

02:16:49.860 like the video

02:16:50.440 if you're enjoying the stream.

02:16:52.240 They should be back here

02:16:53.640 in just about three minutes.

02:16:55.020 They're taking a smoke break.

02:16:57.900 I'll pull this up

02:16:58.880 a little bit later.

02:17:01.480 Oh, let me shout out

02:17:02.320 the people who sent in

02:17:03.160 some things via Venmo

02:17:04.100 and Cash App.

02:17:04.840 Guys, Venmo and Cash App,

02:17:06.660 if you want to send

02:17:07.360 something in,

02:17:08.660 let's see.

02:17:09.460 Lee,

02:17:10.000 Lee Pittman,

02:17:11.040 thank you for the 20.

02:17:11.820 Brian,

02:17:12.340 thank you for the three.

02:17:13.040 Marissa,

02:17:13.920 thank you for the five.

02:17:16.220 George,

02:17:16.760 thank you for the 10.

02:17:18.040 Jonna,

02:17:18.560 Jaina,

02:17:19.080 apologize if I'm

02:17:19.920 mispronouncing that.

02:17:21.060 Thank you for the five.

02:17:21.900 Appreciate it, guys.

02:17:22.760 Thank you, thank you.

02:17:23.880 Also, guys,

02:17:24.460 go to twitch.tv

02:17:25.600 slash whatever.

02:17:26.960 Drop us a follow

02:17:28.180 and a Prime sub

02:17:29.480 if you have one.

02:17:30.480 If you have Amazon Prime,

02:17:31.840 you link it to your Twitch.

02:17:32.960 It takes about two minutes to do.

02:17:34.800 I know a lot of you

02:17:35.600 have the Amazon Prime.

02:17:36.900 You get, you know,

02:17:37.380 the two-day delivery,

02:17:38.800 all kinds of perks

02:17:39.720 on Amazon.

02:17:40.680 You link it

02:17:41.180 to your Twitch account.

02:17:42.540 You can create

02:17:43.140 a Twitch account

02:17:43.740 if you don't have one already.

02:17:44.720 If you do already have one,

02:17:46.000 you just link it up.

02:17:47.020 It's super easy.

02:17:48.200 And then every single month,

02:17:49.400 you can basically

02:17:51.240 support the show for free.

02:17:53.320 Obviously,

02:17:53.820 you have to pay

02:17:54.180 for the Amazon Prime sub,

02:17:55.420 but included with your Amazon Prime,

02:17:57.200 you get a Twitch Prime.

02:17:58.580 It's a quick,

02:17:59.180 free,

02:17:59.580 easy way to support the show

02:18:00.700 every single month.

02:18:02.060 and it enables us

02:18:04.280 to do this show.

02:18:05.380 We don't do sponsorships

02:18:06.580 because the topics

02:18:09.980 we cover in the debates

02:18:11.580 and on the dating talk panels

02:18:12.820 are of a oftentimes

02:18:15.900 controversial nature.

02:18:17.780 Sometimes, you know,

02:18:19.020 certain words are used

02:18:20.440 that are going to

02:18:21.460 get the video flagged.

02:18:23.600 Oftentimes,

02:18:24.200 we lose our individual

02:18:26.220 video monetization

02:18:27.420 on these videos

02:18:28.760 because, you know,

02:18:29.660 we are talking about

02:18:30.480 either controversial topics

02:18:32.420 or keywords get used

02:18:34.660 and the YouTube

02:18:35.140 has an audio algorithm

02:18:36.420 that is going to

02:18:37.680 immediately just flag a video

02:18:39.180 if you say certain words

02:18:40.460 and then you're just

02:18:41.460 going to lose

02:18:41.960 the monetization.

02:18:43.800 So,

02:18:44.560 because we don't do sponsorships,

02:18:47.440 because a lot of our stuff

02:18:48.440 gets demonetized,

02:18:49.780 we are viewer supported.

02:18:51.860 So,

02:18:52.200 if you guys want to support,

02:18:54.640 we have a ton of options.

02:18:57.000 We have the Twitch thing,

02:18:58.040 Venmo Cash App,

02:18:58.860 shop.whatever.com.

02:18:59.920 Get yourself some merch, guys.

02:19:01.600 We sell T-shirts.

02:19:02.320 We got some great designs.

02:19:03.460 We sell T-shirts.

02:19:04.300 You can get yourself a mug.

02:19:05.700 We're selling these cups.

02:19:07.060 By the way,

02:19:07.820 you can't get these anywhere.

02:19:09.320 Trust me.

02:19:10.280 You can't get these

02:19:11.820 solo jazz cups anywhere.

02:19:16.200 I had to go to the manufacturer

02:19:18.920 and I ordered 60,000 cups

02:19:21.380 because I have issues.

02:19:25.100 Anyways,

02:19:25.700 somebody told me

02:19:26.380 to get therapy today.

02:19:27.260 Maybe that's it.

02:19:27.960 Discord.

02:19:28.540 Join our Discord, guys.

02:19:29.700 Discord.gg

02:19:30.620 slash whatever.

02:19:32.120 Discord.gg

02:19:32.880 slash whatever.

02:19:33.960 Andrew's just returned

02:19:35.280 from his smoke break.

02:19:36.940 We are about to get

02:19:38.300 right back into it.

02:19:39.280 Give us just one more minute, guys.

02:19:41.340 Also, guys,

02:19:41.880 if you're enjoying the stream,

02:19:43.560 like the video.

02:19:44.540 Guys,

02:19:44.940 like the video.

02:19:46.220 I'm trying to see what we're,

02:19:48.400 what are we at right now?

02:19:50.340 What are we at?

02:19:51.560 If you guys can get the likes

02:19:53.080 to,

02:19:54.080 you guys get the likes

02:19:56.960 to 7,000,

02:19:59.660 7,000,

02:20:00.680 because there's 12,000 people watching.

02:20:02.640 Get the likes to 7,777.

02:20:06.580 You know,

02:20:07.340 I may or may not have,

02:20:09.500 we got pickle jars,

02:20:10.980 olive jars,

02:20:12.200 peach jars.

02:20:12.920 You need an energy drink,

02:20:16.300 Andrew?

02:20:16.700 You need a...

02:20:17.440 I got enough patience

02:20:18.400 for one more prompt, dude.

02:20:20.380 Okay.

02:20:21.960 And,

02:20:22.500 well...

02:20:22.920 This is infuriating

02:20:23.800 because she just

02:20:24.760 refuses to answer questions.

02:20:26.700 She just prattles for hours

02:20:28.000 and just won't answer

02:20:29.580 any questions I ask her.

02:20:32.200 What are the questions

02:20:32.900 that you want her to answer?

02:20:34.080 Well,

02:20:34.260 I want her to answer

02:20:35.100 her questions on morality.

02:20:37.600 She tried to evade

02:20:38.500 on the incest question.

02:20:39.640 I had to beat that out.

02:20:40.420 It took me like 40 minutes

02:20:41.660 to beat a basic question

02:20:42.860 because I can't move

02:20:43.760 the conversation forward.

02:20:45.320 Let's do this.

02:20:46.360 If,

02:20:46.640 sometimes I'm preoccupied

02:20:49.500 with some of the stream stuff

02:20:50.600 and I'm not always catching

02:20:51.540 when,

02:20:52.080 if she is being evasive,

02:20:53.900 if you just want

02:20:55.460 the immediate answer,

02:20:56.500 just appeal to me

02:20:57.300 and I'll insist

02:20:58.420 she give an answer.

02:20:59.380 How does that sound?

02:21:00.260 This is,

02:21:00.940 I mean,

02:21:01.160 it's just ridiculous.

02:21:02.000 They just don't answer

02:21:03.140 any questions ever.

02:21:05.640 Speaking of which,

02:21:06.540 guys,

02:21:06.720 Andrew's back at the table.

02:21:07.980 He is a master debater.

02:21:09.340 He's a master debater.

02:21:10.940 You've got to get the program

02:21:11.820 debateuniversity.com.

02:21:14.300 You can,

02:21:14.920 it's instructional video,

02:21:17.540 hours and hours

02:21:18.220 of instructional video,

02:21:19.320 debateuniversity.com.

02:21:20.640 Guys,

02:21:21.040 we're going to do

02:21:21.420 a Q&A session

02:21:22.160 as soon as Naima returns.

02:21:24.480 Let me try to get them

02:21:25.820 to hustle back here

02:21:26.760 so that we can get this going.

02:21:29.700 We're just taking

02:21:30.160 a brief intermission

02:21:30.960 to allow a breather

02:21:32.700 for the debate participants.

02:21:35.060 Hold on.

02:21:37.000 Let me text.

02:21:41.160 All right.

02:21:42.480 Thank you guys

02:21:43.140 for your patience.

02:21:45.660 Kenneth Wallen,

02:21:46.840 by the way,

02:21:47.380 says,

02:21:47.780 W. Andrew.

02:21:48.520 Thank you,

02:21:50.740 Kenneth,

02:21:51.240 for that.

02:21:51.900 I'm sure Andrew

02:21:52.580 appreciates your

02:21:54.240 W-ing.

02:21:55.820 Appreciate it.

02:21:57.640 Let's see.

02:21:58.300 Some of these

02:21:58.620 I'd like to wait

02:21:59.880 to pull up

02:22:00.520 just for,

02:22:01.360 I think this one

02:22:02.640 came up,

02:22:03.180 RB.

02:22:03.480 Oh,

02:22:06.080 he's asking about

02:22:06.780 the tribe.

02:22:07.820 RB,

02:22:08.180 thank you for your

02:22:08.900 super chat,

02:22:09.780 man.

02:22:10.040 Do appreciate it.

02:22:11.340 Do appreciate it.

02:22:12.220 I'm going to let

02:22:12.640 some things,

02:22:13.540 some from,

02:22:14.360 oops,

02:22:15.160 hold on.

02:22:15.460 Pasty George here

02:22:16.260 is coming in.

02:22:17.260 Speaking of which,

02:22:17.940 guys,

02:22:18.140 now's the moment.

02:22:18.800 If you want to get

02:22:19.280 a Q&A in,

02:22:20.120 do it now.

02:22:21.100 Do it now.

02:22:21.740 We'll get into

02:22:22.540 the Q&A

02:22:23.300 before,

02:22:25.200 or as soon as

02:22:26.080 Naima comes back.

02:22:28.040 We have

02:22:28.380 Pasty George here.

02:22:29.340 A message from

02:22:29.980 the government

02:22:30.340 of Canada.

02:22:31.680 Pasty George

02:22:32.480 donated $200

02:22:33.900 and four cents.

02:22:35.900 That pop was

02:22:36.600 for Andrew

02:22:37.260 and whatever

02:22:37.800 he wants to get,

02:22:39.140 whether it be beer

02:22:40.040 or some drink

02:22:41.100 or cigars.

02:22:43.760 Would you like,

02:22:45.040 maybe I'll send

02:22:47.760 Nick to do

02:22:48.960 a run.

02:22:49.380 You want some beer?

02:22:50.300 You want a refresher

02:22:51.160 on anything?

02:22:52.340 No,

02:22:52.600 I'm good.

02:22:53.000 You're good?

02:22:53.500 Okay.

02:22:55.140 I guess I'll

02:22:56.040 we'll get

02:22:59.140 Pasty.

02:23:00.640 We'll get

02:23:01.380 Andrew a burrito.

02:23:02.660 We'll get Andrew a beer.

02:23:03.680 We won't do it

02:23:04.680 on stream,

02:23:05.180 you know,

02:23:05.400 but yeah.

02:23:07.340 Is your flight

02:23:08.040 tonight or early

02:23:08.780 tomorrow?

02:23:09.260 Tonight.

02:23:09.620 Tonight,

02:23:09.980 yeah.

02:23:10.280 That's why I got to go.

02:23:11.920 All right,

02:23:12.360 they're back.

02:23:13.120 They're back.

02:23:13.720 Let's get it going.

02:23:14.660 Let's get it going,

02:23:15.420 guys.

02:23:16.980 And,

02:23:17.000 hold on.

02:23:18.460 It sounds interesting.

02:23:21.640 Come a bear

02:23:22.680 donated $200.

02:23:24.680 What do you

02:23:25.460 personally think

02:23:26.300 about the

02:23:26.840 Orthodox faith

02:23:27.760 after sitting

02:23:28.500 in with

02:23:28.880 Orthodox debaters?

02:23:30.760 God bless.

02:23:31.760 Sorry if too

02:23:32.520 personal of a

02:23:33.380 question.

02:23:33.940 Is this directed

02:23:34.460 at me?

02:23:34.740 Thanks for your

02:23:35.180 platform.

02:23:36.280 Is that him?

02:23:37.320 Or me?

02:23:39.840 I believe

02:23:40.620 it's directed

02:23:41.360 to you?

02:23:44.160 What do I

02:23:44.520 think about

02:23:44.940 the Orthodox

02:23:45.460 faith?

02:23:46.860 I don't know,

02:23:47.720 man.

02:23:47.900 Whatever floats

02:23:48.360 your boat.

02:23:50.660 Like,

02:23:51.120 Orthodox

02:23:51.780 Christianity?

02:23:52.600 Orthodox

02:23:52.980 Judaism?

02:23:53.420 Christianity.

02:23:55.920 Orthodox

02:23:56.300 Christianity?

02:23:57.300 I think

02:23:57.540 that's for you.

02:23:59.120 Skooma Bear,

02:23:59.840 appreciate it.

02:24:00.320 We have a

02:24:01.320 question.

02:24:01.840 A message from

02:24:02.040 the government

02:24:02.420 of Canada.

02:24:03.000 Oh, boy.

02:24:03.560 Oh, my God.

02:24:04.100 Not Patsy George.

02:24:06.580 Dude,

02:24:06.980 this man is

02:24:07.500 going to drain

02:24:07.920 his...

02:24:08.120 Don't you feel

02:24:08.760 kind of bad

02:24:09.340 for these people?

02:24:10.840 He's a giga-chan.

02:24:12.580 Is he a giga-chan?

02:24:13.940 If slavery would've

02:24:23.760 never existed, we

02:24:24.060 wouldn't have...

02:24:25.060 So you think we

02:24:25.820 should have...

02:24:26.560 Slavery is

02:24:27.200 justified because

02:24:28.140 it made good

02:24:29.580 music?

02:24:31.180 Should I

02:24:31.460 disavow that?

02:24:32.280 I don't know.

02:24:34.820 Do you want to...

02:24:35.700 Come on, Brian.

02:24:36.260 That was a rough

02:24:36.740 one.

02:24:37.600 Like, you gotta

02:24:38.220 admit, that was

02:24:38.800 just stupid.

02:24:40.320 It was...

02:24:40.820 I mean, that is

02:24:42.700 maybe the...

02:24:43.380 Props to you,

02:24:44.640 Patsy.

02:24:45.180 I think that is

02:24:45.740 one of the worst

02:24:46.920 justifications...

02:24:47.520 Pasty.

02:24:48.060 Oh, not Patsy?

02:24:48.860 Not Patsy.

02:24:49.720 Oh, it's Pasty.

02:24:51.120 Sorry.

02:24:51.800 You can call him

02:24:52.680 George or Pasty.

02:24:54.300 Pasty.

02:24:54.800 Or PG.

02:24:55.460 I like Pasty.

02:24:57.660 Props to you,

02:24:58.260 Pasty.

02:24:58.780 I think that might

02:24:59.340 be one of the worst

02:25:00.220 justifications for

02:25:01.220 slavery I've ever

02:25:01.880 heard.

02:25:02.560 Mr. Fernand

02:25:03.640 Garcia.

02:25:04.260 Thank you, man,

02:25:04.720 for the super

02:25:05.420 chat.

02:25:06.340 If morality is

02:25:07.040 subjective, I think

02:25:07.740 suffering is good.

02:25:08.620 Hypothetically, I have

02:25:09.240 a big army and more

02:25:10.000 willing and capable

02:25:10.800 to enact force

02:25:12.280 than you.

02:25:12.720 Outside of God,

02:25:13.420 how am I wrong?

02:25:14.200 Well, I don't think

02:25:15.020 morality is subjective,

02:25:16.560 so...

02:25:17.340 I think morality is

02:25:18.700 based on natural law,

02:25:19.780 which is objective.

02:25:20.800 Ha ha ha ha.

02:25:22.760 Ha ha ha.

02:25:24.960 Ha ha ha.

02:25:25.760 Ha ha ha.

02:25:26.240 Ha ha ha.

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02:26:38.340 Eligibility

02:26:38.800 restrictions apply.

02:26:39.940 See GoldenNuggetCasino.com

02:26:41.640 for details.

02:26:42.420 Please play

02:26:42.820 responsibly.

02:26:43.500 Ha!

02:26:52.740 All right.

02:26:54.420 Guys, if you want

02:26:55.200 to get the message

02:26:55.680 in again, $200 Q&A,

02:26:57.080 let's get into the

02:26:57.720 next prompt.

02:26:58.680 Welcome back,

02:26:59.400 everybody.

02:27:01.180 All right.

02:27:02.560 Do you guys both

02:27:03.620 smoke Marlboros,

02:27:05.220 by the way?

02:27:05.680 No, I smoke

02:27:06.400 Turkish Royals.

02:27:07.860 I see.

02:27:08.360 Okay.

02:27:08.900 Do you have thoughts

02:27:09.440 on, you guys want

02:27:10.420 to debate the best

02:27:11.260 cigarette?

02:27:13.220 You smoke Cowboy

02:27:14.080 Killers?

02:27:14.860 Yeah.

02:27:15.360 I don't hate them.

02:27:16.680 I feel like everyone

02:27:17.400 starts with Marlboros,

02:27:18.500 so I feel like they're

02:27:19.040 kind of basic.

02:27:19.860 I feel like the

02:27:20.260 Marlboros are better,

02:27:21.400 but.

02:27:21.880 All right.

02:27:22.480 I don't spice my food

02:27:23.320 either.

02:27:24.120 You don't spice your

02:27:25.000 food?

02:27:25.460 I'm kidding.

02:27:26.960 It's a meme-ing.

02:27:28.140 It's a meme.

02:27:28.660 Next prompt.

02:27:29.740 I'm sorry.

02:27:30.260 That just sounded

02:27:30.860 like something you

02:27:31.580 would do.

02:27:33.720 Feminism enslaved

02:27:34.940 women instead of

02:27:36.440 liberating them.

02:27:37.960 Yeah.

02:27:38.400 Okay, Andrew.

02:27:39.080 I think you got to

02:27:40.240 start because I

02:27:40.760 genuinely just want

02:27:41.860 to hear.

02:27:42.140 Yes, Andrew,

02:27:42.400 if you'd like to

02:27:42.820 start on this.

02:27:43.960 Yeah.

02:27:44.240 So the first thing

02:27:45.960 is I'm going to

02:27:46.620 tell you all the

02:27:47.380 things I don't

02:27:47.980 consider to be

02:27:48.600 slavery.

02:27:49.620 Okay.

02:27:50.160 So I don't

02:27:50.820 consider not

02:27:51.680 having voting

02:27:52.560 rights slavery.

02:27:53.880 Okay.

02:27:54.160 Do you want to

02:27:54.580 just define

02:27:55.100 slavery instead of

02:27:56.020 telling me everything

02:27:57.060 that's not slavery?

02:27:57.840 Well, hang on.

02:27:59.120 I will.

02:27:59.440 I'll define that

02:28:00.280 too.

02:28:00.800 Well, you just

02:28:01.480 skip to the good

02:28:01.920 part.

02:28:03.620 Calm down.

02:28:04.800 So I don't

02:28:05.740 consider not

02:28:06.220 having voting

02:28:06.760 rights to be

02:28:07.640 slavery, and I

02:28:09.040 don't consider

02:28:09.660 having certain

02:28:12.380 social benefits

02:28:13.600 instead of voting

02:28:15.580 rights to be

02:28:16.240 slavery at all.

02:28:17.020 So I don't

02:28:17.560 consider lack

02:28:18.720 of suffrage

02:28:19.320 or an

02:28:20.940 inability for

02:28:23.640 like, I don't

02:28:24.400 know, other

02:28:25.440 things like higher

02:28:26.080 education, things

02:28:26.940 like this.

02:28:27.360 I don't consider

02:28:27.780 any of that to

02:28:28.340 be slavery, even

02:28:29.820 if it were the

02:28:30.400 case that we

02:28:31.360 didn't quibble over

02:28:32.280 what that means.

02:28:33.240 I also don't

02:28:33.680 think that those

02:28:34.320 Yeah, exactly.

02:28:35.440 So I don't

02:28:36.440 think that women

02:28:37.240 at the time of

02:28:38.820 feminism were

02:28:39.620 slaves at all.

02:28:40.800 Okay.

02:28:41.280 I don't either.

02:28:43.100 I mean, black

02:28:43.820 women.

02:28:44.480 Do you want me

02:28:45.000 to give the

02:28:46.280 at the time of

02:28:47.720 the 19th

02:28:48.200 amendment?

02:28:50.080 No, I

02:28:51.280 thought you

02:28:51.560 were talking

02:28:51.980 about like

02:28:52.820 during slavery.

02:28:54.360 What?

02:28:55.240 Legitimate like

02:28:56.060 American slavery,

02:28:56.900 no?

02:28:59.060 What?

02:29:00.040 No.

02:29:01.080 What are you

02:29:01.440 talking about?

02:29:03.120 Anyway, so I

02:29:04.380 don't consider

02:29:04.840 women at the

02:29:05.420 time of women's

02:29:06.720 suffrage to have

02:29:08.440 been slaves at

02:29:09.300 all.

02:29:09.860 Okay.

02:29:10.500 I do, however,

02:29:12.520 slavery is very

02:29:14.260 nebulous.

02:29:15.340 Brian, if you

02:29:15.920 can pull up a

02:29:16.440 few definitions.

02:29:17.640 Sure.

02:29:17.900 I can just

02:29:18.380 give you the

02:29:19.320 Merriam-Webster

02:29:19.840 definition.

02:29:20.320 I literally

02:29:20.560 wrote it down.

02:29:21.160 Yeah, but the

02:29:22.300 problem is, is

02:29:23.080 that there's a

02:29:23.840 bit of nebulousness

02:29:24.740 here that I

02:29:25.440 think we need to

02:29:25.920 clarify in the

02:29:26.660 semantics for

02:29:27.320 what slavery is.

02:29:28.580 Okay.

02:29:29.060 So go ahead and

02:29:29.580 pull up the

02:29:30.280 definitions, Brian.

02:29:31.840 Well, it's good.

02:29:32.640 Okay.

02:29:32.940 I mean, it's the

02:29:33.660 state of being a

02:29:34.580 slave.

02:29:35.120 I don't know if

02:29:35.520 that's particularly

02:29:36.360 helpful.

02:29:37.020 Can I give you a

02:29:37.620 definition?

02:29:37.840 Go ahead.

02:29:38.440 Okay.

02:29:38.880 So here's what,

02:29:39.540 because I know

02:29:39.940 when you look it

02:29:41.000 up, it's always the

02:29:41.620 practice of being a

02:29:43.120 slave, which is

02:29:43.660 stupid.

02:29:44.840 Here's what I

02:29:45.700 would say.

02:29:46.640 I would say

02:29:47.340 forced and or

02:29:49.180 involuntary labor

02:29:50.820 without pay.

02:29:52.280 No.

02:29:52.860 You want me to

02:29:53.480 do that?

02:29:54.420 Here's why.

02:29:55.160 Here's why I

02:29:55.520 would disagree.

02:29:55.940 Why?

02:29:57.160 Do you want to

02:29:57.640 know why?

02:29:58.960 Sure.

02:29:59.460 I guess I do.

02:30:00.320 Because I'm not

02:30:00.980 sure that that

02:30:01.600 encompasses another

02:30:02.420 type of slavery.

02:30:03.720 What's the other

02:30:04.240 type of slavery?

02:30:04.860 Well, indentured

02:30:05.840 servitude.

02:30:07.180 Do you want me to

02:30:07.640 read that one?

02:30:08.040 That is without

02:30:08.740 pay, though.

02:30:09.860 So it is

02:30:10.500 encompassing slavery.

02:30:11.220 Well, not really.

02:30:12.100 Yes, it is.

02:30:12.500 No, it's not.

02:30:13.420 Just let me make

02:30:14.080 the case.

02:30:14.760 Do you know what

02:30:16.180 indentured slavery

02:30:16.800 even is?

02:30:17.660 Indentured slavery

02:30:18.380 or indentured

02:30:19.020 servitude?

02:30:19.980 They're the same

02:30:20.540 thing.

02:30:21.100 Indentured servitude

02:30:21.840 is when you

02:30:22.920 essentially got a

02:30:23.860 patron who would

02:30:24.560 allow you to come

02:30:25.280 to America or

02:30:26.140 this country, and

02:30:26.700 then you had to

02:30:27.300 work off your

02:30:29.080 time spent, yeah,

02:30:30.620 your debt for

02:30:31.220 coming to this

02:30:31.640 country.

02:30:31.860 So it wasn't

02:30:32.080 without pay.

02:30:32.960 Well, I think

02:30:33.640 that it was

02:30:34.520 essentially not

02:30:35.540 enough money.

02:30:37.060 Like, the amount,

02:30:38.400 seven years of

02:30:39.200 indentured servitude

02:30:40.040 is not equivalent to

02:30:41.280 one vote, right?

02:30:41.480 Well, maybe not.

02:30:42.500 So I would say

02:30:43.020 that's about it.

02:30:43.160 But I consider

02:30:43.780 that slavery, and I

02:30:45.360 consider that

02:30:46.680 indentured servants

02:30:48.060 who were coming

02:30:49.120 in, I think that

02:30:50.520 they were being

02:30:51.000 paid, they were

02:30:52.080 just paying, all

02:30:52.920 their pay was

02:30:53.340 going to a debt.

02:30:54.860 So that's the

02:30:55.960 distinction that I

02:30:56.620 would make there.

02:30:57.480 No, I agree with

02:30:58.100 you, and I think

02:30:58.620 that to that point

02:30:59.820 sharecropping would

02:31:00.780 also be slavery

02:31:01.980 because it was a

02:31:02.720 similar, all of

02:31:04.120 your money was

02:31:04.680 going towards a

02:31:05.720 debt, so you

02:31:06.340 were not being

02:31:06.840 paid.

02:31:07.000 So my basic

02:31:07.660 argument here is...

02:31:08.660 I still think

02:31:09.100 that we're agreeing

02:31:09.580 on our definition

02:31:10.280 though.

02:31:10.520 Can we just

02:31:10.920 define our terms?

02:31:11.940 Do you want me

02:31:12.340 to read the few

02:31:12.980 definitions?

02:31:13.980 Yeah, sure.

02:31:14.360 Just for slave.

02:31:15.980 One, a person

02:31:16.920 who is forced

02:31:17.460 to work for

02:31:18.140 and obey

02:31:18.680 another and

02:31:19.600 is considered

02:31:20.100 to be their

02:31:20.560 property, an

02:31:21.340 enslaved person.

02:31:22.620 Yes.

02:31:23.180 Next one, a person

02:31:24.620 who works very

02:31:25.360 hard without

02:31:26.020 proper remun...

02:31:27.140 Oh my God, I'm

02:31:28.580 sorry.

02:31:31.500 Remuneration?

02:31:32.000 I'm sorry.

02:31:33.580 Remunerations?

02:31:37.020 Remuneration or

02:31:38.340 appreciation.

02:31:39.500 Oh my God, I'm

02:31:40.100 so embarrassed.

02:31:41.300 No, Brian, it's

02:31:41.920 okay.

02:31:42.800 A person who is

02:31:43.500 excessively dependent

02:31:44.380 upon or controlled

02:31:45.420 by something, an

02:31:47.260 ant captured in

02:31:48.640 its pupil state.

02:31:49.800 So hang on, the

02:31:50.400 previous definition...

02:31:51.140 I do just want

02:31:51.640 to say, Brian...

02:31:52.200 Read the previous

02:31:52.760 definition.

02:31:53.440 Yeah, I do just

02:31:54.500 want to say, Brian,

02:31:55.040 54% of the population

02:31:56.340 reads below a sixth

02:31:57.140 grade reading level,

02:31:57.780 so you're doing

02:31:58.180 pretty good.

02:32:01.700 Thank you.

02:32:02.700 A person who is

02:32:03.900 excessively dependent

02:32:05.320 upon or controlled

02:32:07.060 by something.

02:32:07.880 A person who's

02:32:08.500 excessively dependent

02:32:09.680 or controlled.

02:32:10.240 I agree that that

02:32:12.380 would be a form of

02:32:14.000 slavery.

02:32:14.580 So here's where my

02:32:16.520 essential argument

02:32:17.420 is.

02:32:18.000 Right.

02:32:18.520 Is that women could

02:32:19.360 not incur debt, and

02:32:20.720 I consider that a

02:32:22.540 massive incurrence of

02:32:23.480 debt, like what you

02:32:24.220 would get with

02:32:24.580 indentured servitude,

02:32:25.740 that you then have

02:32:26.860 to work doing

02:32:29.540 things that your

02:32:30.420 preference is

02:32:31.120 definitely against

02:32:32.080 doing, is a form

02:32:34.300 of slavery.

02:32:35.340 And so my argument

02:32:36.200 here is that

02:32:37.340 ultimately what has

02:32:38.900 happened through the

02:32:40.020 idea of all women

02:32:41.440 need to go to

02:32:42.000 college, which has

02:32:42.840 been a massive

02:32:43.360 feminist talking

02:32:44.140 point, is that

02:32:45.260 they're under

02:32:45.580 crushing student

02:32:46.540 debt, generally

02:32:47.760 speaking, for

02:32:48.380 degrees they don't

02:32:49.080 even need.

02:32:50.200 And I would say

02:32:50.820 that that is not

02:32:51.960 liberating at all.

02:32:52.880 I would say that

02:32:53.860 women have become

02:32:54.720 debt slaves to

02:32:55.640 the economy, and

02:32:56.920 before feminism, they

02:32:58.200 could not incur debt

02:32:59.100 themselves under

02:32:59.840 Kovacir laws.

02:33:01.160 So I would say that

02:33:01.960 they have a form of

02:33:03.040 slavery, or at least

02:33:04.500 more akin to a form

02:33:05.520 of slavery, under

02:33:06.800 state debt than was

02:33:09.620 worth it for a right

02:33:10.820 to vote that barely

02:33:12.160 makes a significant

02:33:13.040 difference anyway.

02:33:15.000 Okay.

02:33:16.160 So to those points,

02:33:18.820 I cannot speak for

02:33:21.180 other feminists, but

02:33:21.960 I will speak for

02:33:22.600 myself, nobody is

02:33:23.860 forcing women to go

02:33:26.120 to college under

02:33:27.160 feminism.

02:33:28.480 Like, yeah, sure, we

02:33:29.540 are encouraging women,

02:33:30.800 and part of the

02:33:32.120 feminist movement was

02:33:33.140 to fight for the

02:33:34.620 right, or I guess

02:33:35.280 fight is not right,

02:33:35.840 but to advocate for

02:33:36.820 the right of equal

02:33:38.620 education opportunity,

02:33:40.260 but the difference is

02:33:41.720 that it's not

02:33:42.380 involuntary.

02:33:44.200 Yeah.

02:33:44.540 It's voluntary.

02:33:45.400 Like a woman today

02:33:46.080 could still...

02:33:46.680 So it was indentured

02:33:46.820 servitude, and you

02:33:47.740 agreed it's slavery.

02:33:49.180 Yes, but a woman

02:33:49.860 today could still

02:33:50.440 choose not to be a

02:33:54.160 student, and go to

02:33:55.900 school, and engage in

02:33:58.460 higher education.

02:33:59.540 They could agree then

02:34:00.140 not to be indentured

02:34:00.920 servants.

02:34:01.580 It's the same

02:34:02.080 principle applied.

02:34:03.480 No, it's not the

02:34:04.380 same principle, because

02:34:05.160 what were they leaving?

02:34:06.400 Like, if you're

02:34:06.840 leaving a potato

02:34:07.560 family, you don't

02:34:08.060 really have an option.

02:34:08.760 Either you're dying,

02:34:09.880 or you're now an

02:34:10.780 indentured servant.

02:34:10.800 You still have

02:34:11.240 options, and it's

02:34:12.040 your choice, and the

02:34:12.740 same reason that many

02:34:13.520 women will incur a

02:34:14.380 massive amount of

02:34:14.960 college debt is

02:34:15.680 because they're

02:34:16.080 trying to leave

02:34:18.000 terrible economic

02:34:19.160 conditions.

02:34:19.640 That's why they do

02:34:20.380 it.

02:34:21.120 Yeah, of course

02:34:21.720 it's why they do it.

02:34:22.020 So I would argue that

02:34:22.840 the burden of these

02:34:25.280 massive student loan

02:34:26.280 programs, which are

02:34:27.260 designed specifically to

02:34:28.580 incentivize women to

02:34:29.620 incur huge amounts of

02:34:30.640 debt, which they do,

02:34:32.160 has actually been more

02:34:33.820 of a form of economic

02:34:34.700 slavery than anything

02:34:36.220 that they had pre-feminism

02:34:37.420 under coverture laws,

02:34:38.460 where they were not

02:34:39.100 allowed to incur debt.

02:34:40.060 They did not have debt,

02:34:41.040 which they could incur.

02:34:41.560 Under curvature laws,

02:34:42.940 women were also not

02:34:43.900 allowed to keep their

02:34:44.820 earnings.

02:34:45.460 All of the money that

02:34:46.300 they made from doing

02:34:47.460 literally anything had to

02:34:48.500 go to their husbands.

02:34:49.700 That is not true,

02:34:50.760 especially with

02:34:51.460 inheritances.

02:34:52.540 But going back to this

02:34:54.640 belief that incurring

02:34:56.320 debt through a

02:34:57.580 university that you

02:34:58.660 voluntarily choose to

02:35:00.160 go to is somehow

02:35:02.820 slavery, then wouldn't

02:35:04.360 anyone who takes out

02:35:05.800 a loan be a slave

02:35:06.860 regardless of whether

02:35:07.700 or not they're a man

02:35:08.460 or a woman?

02:35:09.700 I think usury is

02:35:11.600 real bad.

02:35:12.780 So you believe that

02:35:13.900 every single person

02:35:15.000 who is going to

02:35:16.060 college voluntarily

02:35:17.480 and voluntarily taking

02:35:19.200 student debt is now a

02:35:20.780 slave to that

02:35:21.700 university?

02:35:22.300 They are.

02:35:22.960 Okay, so either you

02:35:23.800 don't understand slavery

02:35:24.700 or you don't understand

02:35:25.580 the higher education

02:35:26.480 system.

02:35:26.580 Tell me what the

02:35:27.240 distinction is between

02:35:28.080 that and indentured

02:35:28.800 servitude, which have

02:35:29.740 the exact same

02:35:30.580 qualifiers.

02:35:31.780 Well, the difference is,

02:35:32.540 first of all, we're in a

02:35:33.240 much different society

02:35:34.460 in which higher education

02:35:35.720 is not required.

02:35:36.100 Give me the argument

02:35:36.800 of the principle.

02:35:37.600 The principle of

02:35:38.520 indentured servitude,

02:35:39.740 which is voluntarily

02:35:41.000 taking out a huge

02:35:42.220 sum of money and then

02:35:43.900 paying it back through

02:35:44.860 work, right?

02:35:46.060 And you have to pay

02:35:47.180 that money back or

02:35:48.680 else there's serious

02:35:49.660 fucking penalties for

02:35:51.480 that, just like there

02:35:52.220 is for student loans.

02:35:53.380 In principle, what is

02:35:55.340 the distinction here?

02:35:56.320 They're both voluntary.

02:35:57.840 Both.

02:35:57.880 The principle is that

02:35:59.080 under an indentured

02:36:00.540 servitude, you're working

02:36:01.760 for seven years and

02:36:03.180 your owner...

02:36:03.960 You're working for a

02:36:04.500 lot longer than that

02:36:05.240 often with student

02:36:06.040 debts.

02:36:06.400 It's the concept of

02:36:07.520 ownership.

02:36:08.380 You are not owned by

02:36:09.740 a company.

02:36:10.480 No, no, no.

02:36:10.860 It wasn't chattel

02:36:11.740 slavery.

02:36:12.340 You weren't owned the

02:36:13.200 same way.

02:36:14.020 No.

02:36:14.720 But you were responsible

02:36:15.640 to pay that debt off

02:36:16.920 via the agreement of

02:36:17.620 the contract, just like

02:36:18.580 you are with one of

02:36:19.520 these huge student

02:36:20.120 loans for useless debt.

02:36:21.660 Look, I think student

02:36:22.460 loans fucking suck.

02:36:23.460 But it's not slavery.

02:36:25.080 It's not just that debt.

02:36:25.560 You gotta be, like,

02:36:26.840 be so for real, man.

02:36:27.940 It's not slavery.

02:36:28.660 Then you shouldn't

02:36:29.220 have agreed that

02:36:29.680 indentured servitude is

02:36:30.600 slavery because it meets

02:36:31.700 the same qualifiers.

02:36:32.900 It does not meet the

02:36:33.640 same qualifiers.

02:36:33.820 What's the distinction?

02:36:34.980 Because the owner of

02:36:36.380 the indentured servant,

02:36:37.280 and I'm going to use

02:36:37.820 owner in this scenario.

02:36:39.540 They're not owned the

02:36:40.680 same way as you owned

02:36:41.680 a chattel slavery.

02:36:42.880 Yes, but during

02:36:43.480 indentured servitude,

02:36:44.320 they would often push

02:36:45.380 the goalposts and be

02:36:46.280 like, oh, you owe me

02:36:47.020 more and more and more

02:36:47.940 money.

02:36:48.180 They do it the same

02:36:48.940 way with compound

02:36:50.160 interest rates from

02:36:51.200 student loans.

02:36:52.000 But we understand the

02:36:53.120 interest rate.

02:36:53.640 It's up front.

02:36:54.600 They understood the

02:36:55.580 interest rate because it

02:36:56.400 was up front.

02:36:57.060 That's why they signed

02:36:57.820 contracts.

02:36:58.520 Yes, they had to adhere

02:36:59.960 to the contracts the

02:37:00.840 same way.

02:37:01.260 No, they didn't.

02:37:01.760 Half of them weren't

02:37:02.280 even literate.

02:37:02.820 Yes, they did.

02:37:04.640 And just because people

02:37:05.540 are doing things which

02:37:06.440 are illegal, it was

02:37:07.760 within the confines of

02:37:08.620 the law.

02:37:08.880 They had to adhere to

02:37:09.720 the contract.

02:37:10.580 These were supposed to

02:37:11.400 be free white men.

02:37:12.660 That's different than

02:37:13.500 chattel slavery.

02:37:14.660 That's why they had

02:37:15.340 certain things afforded

02:37:16.400 to them that were not

02:37:17.720 afforded to chattel

02:37:18.440 slaves.

02:37:18.840 And my argument is

02:37:19.880 So then I guess you've

02:37:20.600 defeated your own

02:37:21.180 purpose.

02:37:21.720 Yeah, you've made.

02:37:22.500 So you've argued

02:37:23.080 against indentured

02:37:23.920 servitude being slavery

02:37:24.980 and no, I'm arguing

02:37:27.020 like you are that it

02:37:28.360 was slavery.

02:37:29.660 You're complaining.

02:37:30.440 And I'm saying that

02:37:30.720 this is the same thing.

02:37:31.840 It's a form of

02:37:32.360 economic slavery along

02:37:33.940 with the propaganda

02:37:35.500 which is trying to

02:37:36.420 push women for

02:37:37.140 useless degrees

02:37:38.120 especially and giving

02:37:40.260 them loans which

02:37:41.560 they didn't get

02:37:41.920 penalties on and they

02:37:42.940 do get penalties.

02:37:43.880 So what is your

02:37:44.320 solution, Andrew?

02:37:45.360 To what?

02:37:46.580 To eliminating the

02:37:47.620 slavery.

02:37:47.940 It doesn't need to

02:37:48.500 have a solution.

02:37:49.240 We just need to agree

02:37:50.500 that this is a form of

02:37:51.500 economic slavery.

02:37:52.220 That's it.

02:37:52.820 I don't believe it's a

02:37:53.620 form of economic slavery

02:37:54.620 because it's a choice.

02:37:55.760 Then neither was

02:37:56.180 indentured servitude.

02:37:57.180 Okay, sure.

02:37:58.140 So indentured servants

02:37:59.020 weren't slaves?

02:37:59.920 Fine.

02:38:00.360 Okay.

02:38:01.580 I will admit it

02:38:02.360 as long as you bite

02:38:03.220 that bullet.

02:38:04.300 Next prompt?

02:38:04.860 Yeah, next prompt.

02:38:05.620 I guess that's why

02:38:06.220 they called them

02:38:06.680 indentured servants

02:38:07.360 and not indentured

02:38:07.960 slaves.

02:38:09.100 All right.

02:38:09.760 So you don't wait.

02:38:12.260 Go ahead.

02:38:12.800 We're going to the

02:38:13.200 next one.

02:38:13.500 I'm done.

02:38:13.760 No, no, no, no.

02:38:14.640 Go back.

02:38:15.340 So then are you

02:38:16.060 We'll go to the next

02:38:16.680 one.

02:38:16.860 Hold on, Brian.

02:38:18.620 I got it.

02:38:19.720 So then, Andrew,

02:38:20.540 if I'm conceding that

02:38:21.680 indentured servitude

02:38:22.560 isn't slavery,

02:38:23.420 then are you conceding

02:38:24.380 that feminism

02:38:25.060 is an enslaved woman?

02:38:25.940 No, I'm still going to

02:38:27.400 I'm still literally

02:38:28.480 going to stick by

02:38:29.120 the definition that

02:38:30.200 almost all sources

02:38:31.600 would consider

02:38:32.260 indentured servitude

02:38:33.360 a form of slavery

02:38:34.120 due to the crushing debt

02:38:35.400 and the lack of choice

02:38:36.620 that that brought.

02:38:37.360 I'm going to argue

02:38:38.200 that the same thing

02:38:39.060 is the case

02:38:39.720 through all forms

02:38:40.820 of crushing debt

02:38:41.800 which are brought

02:38:42.520 by corporate

02:38:43.060 or state bodies

02:38:43.880 against peoples

02:38:44.520 forms of slavery

02:38:45.920 that women did not

02:38:46.700 have to deal with

02:38:47.480 before feminism

02:38:48.520 that feminism introduced.

02:38:50.320 Therefore, I think

02:38:50.780 they're less free now

02:38:51.640 than they ever were

02:38:52.340 because of the word debt.

02:38:53.320 First of all,

02:38:53.500 I don't think you can

02:38:54.220 blame feminism for this.

02:38:55.780 They're the ones

02:38:56.240 who advocated for it.

02:38:57.140 But we're not forcing

02:38:58.280 women to go to college.

02:38:59.320 We're giving them

02:38:59.820 the option of going to college

02:39:01.120 and people can go to college

02:39:03.380 who can, like,

02:39:04.020 what if a woman

02:39:04.500 could just afford

02:39:05.280 to go to college

02:39:05.880 and she wants to go?

02:39:06.860 Until you can tell me

02:39:07.840 the distinct criterion

02:39:09.180 difference between

02:39:10.480 the crushing debt

02:39:11.460 of indentured servitude

02:39:12.700 and the crushing debt

02:39:14.080 of college loans

02:39:15.680 which are often targeted

02:39:16.900 at minorities

02:39:17.680 and people have

02:39:18.840 very little in the way

02:39:20.280 of means to pay

02:39:21.020 these loans back

02:39:21.880 and they give them

02:39:22.640 to them based

02:39:23.740 on useless degrees

02:39:24.900 often, right?

02:39:26.600 I don't understand

02:39:27.800 how you could say

02:39:28.860 that not only

02:39:29.600 you would have to admit

02:39:30.660 that that's a bad thing

02:39:32.020 but how's that not

02:39:32.640 a form of economic slavery?

02:39:34.280 Andrew, I'm not arguing

02:39:34.980 any of these points.

02:39:35.780 I'm arguing that this

02:39:36.600 isn't the responsibility

02:39:37.580 of feminism.

02:39:38.740 Feminism created an option

02:39:40.120 but the concept

02:39:40.900 of college debt

02:39:41.740 was not made by feminism.

02:39:43.200 Who pushed for it?

02:39:44.440 Who pushed for college debt?

02:39:45.160 Who pushed for women

02:39:46.000 to go to college

02:39:46.780 and have it financed

02:39:47.540 by the government?

02:39:48.240 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

02:39:48.800 Who pushed for college?

02:39:49.820 Who created college debt?

02:39:51.200 Is it feminist?

02:39:51.580 No.

02:39:51.880 Yes, feminists pushed

02:39:53.220 for women to go to college

02:39:55.220 and take out student loans.

02:39:56.240 So do you not understand

02:39:57.020 the question?

02:39:57.140 This is the third wave

02:39:58.020 feminists, by the way.

02:39:58.660 Do you want me to understand

02:39:58.960 the question?

02:39:59.360 Hold on one other time,

02:40:00.260 please.

02:40:00.340 Do you want me to reiterate

02:40:00.440 the question?

02:40:01.120 Go ahead.

02:40:01.460 Who created college debt?

02:40:04.500 Created it?

02:40:05.260 Yes.

02:40:05.760 Financial institutions

02:40:06.860 who work alongside

02:40:07.900 the government.

02:40:08.240 Okay, so then financial institutions

02:40:08.620 are the slavers,

02:40:09.460 not feminists.

02:40:10.440 No, because it's feminist

02:40:11.640 who, what's the prompt?

02:40:14.060 That feminism did more

02:40:16.780 than to save women

02:40:17.060 than to free them, right?

02:40:18.120 Or to give them more rights

02:40:20.860 or give them more freedoms

02:40:22.160 in society.

02:40:22.880 That's what we're talking about.

02:40:24.100 But you can't blame feminists

02:40:25.560 for the creation of college debt.

02:40:26.180 I can and I am.

02:40:27.480 No, you can't.

02:40:27.940 Feminists did.

02:40:28.700 Well, it's stupid.

02:40:29.380 Well, let me make the argument

02:40:30.540 and then respond to it.

02:40:31.740 Sure.

02:40:32.100 Feminists did absolutely push

02:40:34.260 for women in higher education.

02:40:36.700 They pushed to have it

02:40:37.380 financed by the state.

02:40:38.860 And by the way,

02:40:39.700 modern feminists still push it.

02:40:42.000 Modern feminists right this second

02:40:43.700 are still pushing

02:40:44.940 that women go to college

02:40:46.740 and take on college debt

02:40:48.440 if necessary

02:40:49.420 to get a degree.

02:40:50.720 That's what they push

02:40:51.840 more than anything, in fact.

02:40:53.660 What we were pushing

02:40:54.340 is the right to go to college.

02:40:57.280 The right.

02:40:58.100 Do you understand that?

02:40:59.340 Before feminism,

02:41:00.500 women were not allowed

02:41:01.580 to pursue a degree

02:41:02.500 in higher education.

02:41:03.020 Yeah, I know.

02:41:03.040 You're pushing for the right

02:41:03.480 to indentured servitude.

02:41:04.720 We're not.

02:41:05.180 Okay, but we didn't create,

02:41:06.500 feminism didn't create

02:41:07.520 the quote-unquote

02:41:08.580 indentured servitude.

02:41:09.340 They did.

02:41:10.040 Of the,

02:41:11.260 no, we didn't.

02:41:11.920 You did.

02:41:12.740 Who created college debt, Andrew?

02:41:14.740 If there wasn't,

02:41:15.220 if there wasn't this massive,

02:41:17.020 This is the most circular-ass

02:41:17.740 argument I've ever heard.

02:41:18.660 If there wasn't incentive,

02:41:20.080 right,

02:41:20.440 for these companies

02:41:21.380 to create these diploma mills,

02:41:24.320 because,

02:41:24.760 and the only reason

02:41:25.320 they're creating

02:41:25.660 these diploma mills

02:41:26.680 is because

02:41:27.460 the student loan programs,

02:41:29.580 which are coming out

02:41:30.740 of the federal government.

02:41:32.040 Yeah.

02:41:32.360 Okay, that's what's going on.

02:41:33.700 I'm sure you have student loans

02:41:34.820 and it sucks.

02:41:35.660 Like, I'm sorry.

02:41:36.620 That sucks.

02:41:37.260 It does suck.

02:41:37.940 And I'm sorry that you're being

02:41:40.860 crushed under that weight,

02:41:41.780 but I'm telling you right now

02:41:42.960 that that was not done

02:41:44.480 by the malicious patriarchy.

02:41:45.960 This is feminists

02:41:46.960 and feminists even currently

02:41:48.360 who really pushed hard

02:41:49.740 that all women need

02:41:50.760 to go to college.

02:41:51.740 They all need to go.

02:41:52.740 They all need to go.

02:41:54.120 And all these student loans

02:41:56.260 and the crushing debt now

02:41:57.360 and women are responsible

02:41:58.360 for so much of that debt.

02:42:00.200 I would argue

02:42:01.020 that that is way worse

02:42:02.100 that these women

02:42:02.620 now have to go work

02:42:03.460 these menial fucking jobs

02:42:04.960 and shit like this

02:42:05.900 to pay back

02:42:06.920 their student loans

02:42:08.060 to the fucking federal government.

02:42:09.300 It's so bad now

02:42:10.400 that now you have

02:42:11.420 a new wave of feminists

02:42:12.500 trying to come out

02:42:13.800 and just ask

02:42:14.820 for free everything.

02:42:15.800 They're like,

02:42:16.120 oh, just please,

02:42:17.180 student debt forgiveness.

02:42:18.180 They crushed.

02:42:19.520 Go ahead.

02:42:20.440 I mean, Andrew,

02:42:20.980 I completely agree with you.

02:42:21.820 I mean, I'm literally

02:42:22.240 having this conversation

02:42:22.960 with you right now

02:42:23.960 to pay off my student debt.

02:42:25.540 But my issue is that

02:42:26.800 I don't think,

02:42:27.740 like, all of these problems

02:42:28.800 are real,

02:42:29.560 but I don't think

02:42:30.540 the blame and the onus

02:42:32.120 is on feminists.

02:42:33.260 I think the blame

02:42:33.900 and the onus

02:42:34.460 is on a capitalist system

02:42:36.680 that is designed

02:42:37.540 to fuck all of us.

02:42:39.000 It's not even just women.

02:42:40.300 It's men, too.

02:42:41.580 Like, men also.

02:42:42.240 Loans from the federal government

02:42:43.040 isn't capitalism.

02:42:43.760 I mean, men are also.

02:42:44.860 Oh.

02:42:45.480 No.

02:42:46.540 So you don't think that

02:42:47.560 loans are supposed to come

02:42:48.480 from private equity firms.

02:42:49.860 You don't think that

02:42:50.060 the private college fund

02:42:51.360 and the Bush.

02:42:52.600 I don't think that

02:42:53.200 private equity firms.

02:42:54.120 You don't think that these

02:42:54.960 diploma mills

02:42:56.780 are based on capitalism?

02:42:58.160 The private equity firms,

02:43:00.020 right,

02:43:01.060 would not be financing

02:43:02.740 people who are going

02:43:03.620 to school for fucking

02:43:04.600 basket weaving,

02:43:05.660 okay,

02:43:05.940 because their chance

02:43:06.620 of getting paid back

02:43:07.380 would be way less.

02:43:08.620 It's because these loans

02:43:10.080 are backed by the federal

02:43:11.080 government that they're

02:43:11.760 even possible

02:43:12.460 because equity firms

02:43:13.380 would laugh at them.

02:43:14.560 So the thing is,

02:43:15.140 it's like, look,

02:43:16.300 as we look at this

02:43:17.220 from the, like,

02:43:19.100 bird's eye view,

02:43:20.260 right,

02:43:20.660 you and I agree

02:43:21.600 that that system

02:43:22.580 is fucked, okay?

02:43:23.840 Yes, I do.

02:43:24.420 And yes,

02:43:25.300 absolutely feminist

02:43:26.420 pushed for that system

02:43:27.500 in a big way

02:43:28.260 and my argument

02:43:29.020 essentially is simple.

02:43:30.240 It's just saying,

02:43:31.160 and you know what,

02:43:31.640 you can even caveat it.

02:43:32.560 You can be like,

02:43:33.040 you know what,

02:43:33.320 feminists did a lot

02:43:33.960 of great things.

02:43:35.200 This one wasn't it.

02:43:36.620 And if you,

02:43:37.180 as long as you're willing

02:43:38.040 to make the concession

02:43:38.940 like, look,

02:43:40.100 that sort of financial slavery

02:43:41.600 is way worse

02:43:42.720 than what they had

02:43:43.600 pre-19th amendment

02:43:44.880 because it is,

02:43:46.260 then I think we have

02:43:47.540 an accord

02:43:47.920 and we can move

02:43:48.420 to the next prompt.

02:43:49.360 I will,

02:43:50.520 can I do a closing statement?

02:43:51.840 And if you feel like

02:43:52.580 we're done,

02:43:53.060 then I'm going to be done

02:43:54.300 with this one.

02:43:54.860 I think the main point

02:43:56.020 that I will make

02:43:56.780 is that feminism

02:43:57.520 was not about

02:43:58.520 forcing women

02:43:59.380 to go to college,

02:44:00.080 but before feminism,

02:44:01.220 women physically

02:44:02.140 could not go to college.

02:44:04.140 It was about

02:44:04.800 creating equal opportunity

02:44:06.000 because although

02:44:07.340 colleges are fucked

02:44:09.160 with the way

02:44:09.820 that they absolutely

02:44:10.980 steal from students

02:44:12.100 by proliferating

02:44:13.360 college debt,

02:44:15.420 some degrees-

02:44:16.360 Do you consider that

02:44:16.380 a form of financial slavery?

02:44:17.460 Yes,

02:44:17.620 but some degrees

02:44:18.300 are actually worthwhile.

02:44:20.860 Look-

02:44:21.460 And women

02:44:21.980 should have

02:44:22.860 the right

02:44:23.800 to pursue

02:44:24.680 those degrees

02:44:25.500 as well.

02:44:26.620 I just want to point out

02:44:27.420 that-

02:44:27.680 It shouldn't,

02:44:28.100 it's the inequality

02:44:29.080 that women,

02:44:29.920 that feminists

02:44:30.400 are fighting against,

02:44:31.300 but in no universe

02:44:32.340 are we trying

02:44:32.840 to force

02:44:33.400 every single woman

02:44:34.700 to go to college

02:44:35.460 even if they

02:44:36.040 don't want to

02:44:36.960 and it doesn't

02:44:37.460 make financial sense

02:44:38.380 for them.

02:44:39.300 No one is advocating

02:44:40.440 for that.

02:44:41.200 I am an avowed feminist

02:44:42.420 and I would never

02:44:43.480 say that

02:44:44.100 to another woman.

02:44:45.700 So anyway,

02:44:46.860 these were the same

02:44:47.540 arguments that were

02:44:48.300 being used

02:44:48.900 for the pushing

02:44:49.360 of indentured slavery.

02:44:51.180 Indentured servitude,

02:44:51.960 same exact thing.

02:44:52.560 Nobody's forcing you

02:44:53.320 to do it.

02:44:53.980 We're just making sure

02:44:54.740 that people have

02:44:55.260 the ability to do it

02:44:56.120 because they don't

02:44:56.460 have enough money

02:44:57.060 to get here.

02:44:57.540 Hang on.

02:44:58.220 Yeah.

02:44:58.640 I didn't interrupt

02:44:59.160 your closing.

02:44:59.820 That's fair.

02:45:00.360 Okay.

02:45:01.860 The indentured servants,

02:45:03.040 they want to come here.

02:45:03.800 They just can't afford it.

02:45:05.260 Okay?

02:45:05.580 So we can charge them

02:45:06.360 whatever they want

02:45:06.960 and doesn't that really

02:45:07.660 just make their life better

02:45:08.640 because we're giving them

02:45:09.460 the option to do it?

02:45:10.960 These are the same

02:45:11.660 exact arguments

02:45:12.360 that were made for that.

02:45:13.440 Same exact thing.

02:45:14.360 And so the thing is,

02:45:15.440 it's like,

02:45:15.740 look, fine.

02:45:16.860 That's great that you

02:45:17.820 want this option, right?

02:45:20.120 But that doesn't change

02:45:21.160 the fact that feminism

02:45:22.100 created the conditionals

02:45:23.500 for this.

02:45:24.500 Not the patriarchy

02:45:25.720 and not coverture laws.

02:45:27.340 Feminism, hang on,

02:45:28.560 created the conditionals

02:45:29.540 for this.

02:45:30.180 And since they did

02:45:31.100 and they advocated for it,

02:45:32.160 they pushed everyone into it,

02:45:33.400 they made a bunch

02:45:34.000 of economic slaves

02:45:35.180 out of otherwise

02:45:35.960 viable women

02:45:36.760 in their fertile years

02:45:37.920 who could have gotten married.

02:45:39.820 I mean,

02:45:40.200 can I just respond to that?

02:45:41.100 The thing, though,

02:45:41.700 is that it wasn't that

02:45:43.200 women weren't

02:45:44.180 allowed to be

02:45:44.700 indentured servants

02:45:45.360 and then only men

02:45:46.260 could be indentured servants

02:45:47.080 and then feminists

02:45:48.060 pushed for women

02:45:49.540 to be indentured servants.

02:45:50.860 Like,

02:45:51.340 the issue is that

02:45:52.240 men could go to college

02:45:53.420 but women couldn't.

02:45:54.640 We didn't have the option.

02:45:56.520 We were fighting

02:45:57.200 for the option.

02:45:58.740 Most men only got

02:45:59.780 the option

02:46:00.340 to start going

02:46:01.520 to college in mass,

02:46:03.100 right,

02:46:03.300 only slightly before

02:46:04.220 women did.

02:46:05.100 That's one.

02:46:05.640 And two,

02:46:06.180 let me just point this out,

02:46:07.440 that if college

02:46:07.980 was really about

02:46:08.700 rewarding the best

02:46:09.500 and the brightest,

02:46:10.180 not everybody could go.

02:46:11.680 And the entirety

02:46:12.620 of the push for this

02:46:13.920 should always have been

02:46:14.900 for that anyway.

02:46:16.360 And what happened

02:46:17.000 is feminists made

02:46:17.760 a bunch of economic slaves

02:46:18.900 out of women

02:46:19.340 that they really

02:46:19.840 didn't need to make

02:46:20.600 out of women.

02:46:21.540 And they still,

02:46:22.560 by the way,

02:46:22.980 on every mainstream network,

02:46:24.260 this is what you'll see

02:46:25.100 female feminists

02:46:25.980 in modernity saying.

02:46:27.740 Go to college!

02:46:28.540 Go to college!

02:46:29.120 Go to school!

02:46:29.640 Because a lot of them

02:46:30.240 are paid fucking shills,

02:46:31.520 in fact.

02:46:32.500 Okay?

02:46:33.060 So yeah,

02:46:33.760 feminism did bring

02:46:34.620 the conditionals for this.

02:46:35.660 They did make

02:46:36.180 economic slaves.

02:46:37.420 And here's the thing,

02:46:38.460 as long as you agree,

02:46:40.260 and here's maybe

02:46:41.100 the olive branch

02:46:41.800 that we can get.

02:46:42.620 Fine,

02:46:42.840 you don't want to

02:46:43.220 call it slavery,

02:46:44.500 economic slavery,

02:46:45.800 don't call it

02:46:46.360 economic slavery.

02:46:47.300 I think that in

02:46:47.880 any other conditional,

02:46:48.840 though,

02:46:49.460 an avowed socialist

02:46:50.300 like you would use

02:46:51.320 that exact language,

02:46:52.240 economic slavery.

02:46:53.460 You just don't want

02:46:54.140 to blame it on feminism,

02:46:55.380 you want to blame it

02:46:55.880 on capitalism,

02:46:56.620 but it's like,

02:46:57.240 even if I say that...

02:46:58.080 I agree with you

02:46:58.420 that the system is fucked,

02:46:59.180 but I don't believe

02:47:00.480 that feminists

02:47:01.460 are the ones

02:47:01.940 who are the ones

02:47:01.960 who are the system.

02:47:02.040 Can we have an olive branch

02:47:02.780 then that forms

02:47:05.160 of bad capitalism,

02:47:06.580 mixed with

02:47:07.680 bad feminist ideology

02:47:09.200 created the conditionals

02:47:10.440 for this?

02:47:11.040 Maybe that's

02:47:11.660 the olive branch.

02:47:12.480 I think it's forms

02:47:12.960 of bad capitalism

02:47:13.820 that created

02:47:14.380 the conditionals

02:47:15.100 for this

02:47:15.460 that everyone experiences.

02:47:16.820 And I also feel

02:47:17.440 like you're kind of

02:47:17.940 downplaying what men

02:47:19.020 have to deal with as well.

02:47:20.560 I mean,

02:47:20.860 men are in this

02:47:21.480 same freaking boat.

02:47:23.320 Like, no?

02:47:23.960 Well, not really.

02:47:24.880 Men are moving

02:47:25.380 towards the trades.

02:47:26.500 They understand

02:47:27.120 that there's

02:47:28.100 a massive scammery

02:47:29.640 going on with college.

02:47:30.960 They're moving

02:47:31.540 into trades,

02:47:32.260 and they don't have

02:47:32.940 to spend as much.

02:47:33.480 In fact,

02:47:33.760 they get paid.

02:47:34.740 College is not always

02:47:35.820 a massive scammery.

02:47:36.200 Most of the time

02:47:36.680 when you're training

02:47:37.160 for a trade,

02:47:38.540 you get paid

02:47:39.140 a high amount of money.

02:47:40.160 Most trade schools

02:47:41.040 that you go to,

02:47:43.240 maybe you go for

02:47:44.200 six, eight weeks,

02:47:44.940 and then you're

02:47:45.300 assigned as an apprentice,

02:47:46.380 or sometimes you just

02:47:47.180 start as an apprentice,

02:47:48.200 and you work for four years,

02:47:49.400 and you're getting paid

02:47:49.980 the entire time.

02:47:50.920 Yeah.

02:47:51.140 That seems like

02:47:51.880 the opposite

02:47:52.560 of economic slavery.

02:47:54.760 This seems like it is,

02:47:56.120 and I think that feminists

02:47:57.100 created the conditionals,

02:47:58.300 and I'll leave it there.

02:47:58.960 But feminists also

02:47:59.900 gave women access

02:48:00.720 to go to trade school

02:48:01.440 as well.

02:48:02.240 Like all forms

02:48:02.940 of higher education,

02:48:03.900 feminists fought

02:48:04.840 for the right

02:48:05.360 to women to attend to,

02:48:06.380 and then we can choose

02:48:07.320 among those.

02:48:07.720 It was higher education.

02:48:09.280 Women weren't fighting

02:48:10.160 to get into trade schools.

02:48:11.260 You don't think trade school

02:48:11.920 is a form of higher education?

02:48:12.600 Hey, man,

02:48:13.140 don't have trade school.

02:48:13.220 They weren't fighting

02:48:14.120 to go weld, okay?

02:48:15.660 It's the equality

02:48:16.440 of opportunity.

02:48:17.040 They weren't fighting

02:48:17.960 to go weld.

02:48:18.260 Do you understand

02:48:18.840 what the equality

02:48:19.500 of opportunity is?

02:48:20.400 Oh, give me a break.

02:48:21.000 That wasn't what

02:48:21.700 it was about.

02:48:22.340 It was about a bunch

02:48:23.320 of industrialists

02:48:24.200 hornswoggling you

02:48:25.160 into becoming

02:48:25.700 second-class citizens

02:48:26.960 because you became

02:48:27.580 economic cogs.

02:48:29.700 Okay.

02:48:30.820 I'll just close this out.

02:48:31.920 I think we can agree

02:48:32.760 that the college

02:48:33.600 education system

02:48:34.320 needs some severe

02:48:35.520 reformation,

02:48:36.760 and I think that we can agree

02:48:37.740 that it's fucking

02:48:38.380 a lot of Americans,

02:48:39.400 both men and women.

02:48:40.900 Where I disagree

02:48:41.760 is that I don't think

02:48:43.140 that feminism

02:48:43.700 is the cause

02:48:45.000 of this, I guess,

02:48:46.120 universal fuckage.

02:48:48.320 Instead,

02:48:49.120 it literally created

02:48:50.520 the ability

02:48:51.440 for women

02:48:52.060 to choose this,

02:48:53.540 and it's not

02:48:54.040 forcing it on women.

02:48:55.240 If they are going

02:48:55.960 to go into too much debt

02:48:56.880 and it's not economically

02:48:57.720 feasible to go to college,

02:48:59.060 as a feminist,

02:48:59.900 I'm telling you right now,

02:49:00.900 don't do it.

02:49:01.480 If it's not worth it,

02:49:02.580 then don't.

02:49:03.400 Yeah, that's great,

02:49:04.120 but that's counterintuitive

02:49:05.360 to what your whole movement

02:49:06.280 said for the last 60 years.

02:49:08.020 I don't think you understand

02:49:08.800 my movement, Andrew.

02:49:10.000 I think I'm the only one

02:49:10.780 at the table who does.

02:49:11.680 I would disagree.

02:49:13.120 We have three prompt options.

02:49:16.200 Problems with democracy,

02:49:17.640 women just as violent as men,

02:49:19.760 if not more,

02:49:21.180 and force doctrine,

02:49:23.100 the descriptor for earth.

02:49:24.580 Yeah, do you want to do

02:49:25.480 force doctrine?

02:49:26.320 Because we never got to that.

02:49:27.760 Oh, yeah, that's true.

02:49:28.780 We didn't.

02:49:29.600 Honestly, I kind of wanted

02:49:30.560 to do problems with democracy.

02:49:31.960 Yeah, we can do that too.

02:49:32.800 Problems with democracy, fine.

02:49:34.020 Yeah, you want to start

02:49:34.460 with problems with democracy

02:49:35.320 and then move on to,

02:49:37.440 what was the other one?

02:49:38.720 I like women are more violent too.

02:49:41.000 Do you have a preference?

02:49:41.660 Let's do problems

02:49:42.540 with democracy.

02:49:43.680 Okay.

02:49:43.980 And then force doctrine

02:49:44.920 and then time permitting.

02:49:45.980 Well, I don't think

02:49:46.620 we're going to have time

02:49:47.320 after this one.

02:49:48.160 Force doctrine is going

02:49:48.680 to be really long,

02:49:49.960 is what I'm saying,

02:49:50.820 is what I'm thinking.

02:49:51.640 Well, then let's do

02:49:52.220 force doctrine

02:49:52.740 so we can get out of the way.

02:49:53.660 Let's do force doctrine then.

02:49:54.520 So Andrew, it's your claim

02:49:58.140 if you want to.

02:49:58.660 Yeah, so force doctrine

02:49:59.540 is a descriptor

02:50:00.520 which just describes

02:50:01.820 that women gain

02:50:03.500 their rights from men.

02:50:05.040 That's the descriptor.

02:50:07.620 Okay, so why do women

02:50:08.840 gain their rights?

02:50:09.380 Do you want to define

02:50:10.160 force doctrine and why?

02:50:11.440 I just did.

02:50:12.340 No, you didn't.

02:50:13.620 What am I leaving out

02:50:14.660 of my own definition?

02:50:15.880 Well, why do women,

02:50:16.780 like, because?

02:50:19.000 Why do they have

02:50:19.780 to appeal to them?

02:50:20.420 There's no justification.

02:50:20.780 Yes, women gain their rights

02:50:21.980 because men have

02:50:22.480 a monopoly on force

02:50:23.640 and since they have

02:50:24.240 a monopoly on force,

02:50:25.680 women always have

02:50:26.600 to appeal to them.

02:50:27.340 Example, if women

02:50:28.700 right this second

02:50:29.640 who were in some

02:50:30.580 Middle Eastern nation,

02:50:31.960 right, wanted their rights

02:50:33.320 from the men

02:50:34.520 and the men did not want

02:50:35.400 to give them any rights,

02:50:36.480 can you demonstrate

02:50:37.460 for me a single shred

02:50:38.760 of recourse that they

02:50:39.520 could have except

02:50:40.040 appealing to other men

02:50:40.940 or the men that are

02:50:43.120 not giving them rights?

02:50:44.480 I mean, well,

02:50:44.900 they could invent a bomb

02:50:45.880 that would just, like,

02:50:46.640 destroy everyone.

02:50:48.020 Can you give me

02:50:48.800 a single historic example

02:50:50.140 of women ever successfully

02:50:51.880 using physical force

02:50:53.960 to overthrow

02:50:55.000 when they're considered

02:50:56.480 second-class citizens

02:50:57.440 by the men?

02:50:58.300 No, but I honestly

02:51:00.120 believe physical force

02:51:01.460 is immoral.

02:51:01.920 I guess my issue

02:51:02.940 with force doctrine

02:51:03.760 is, like, so what?

02:51:05.840 What is your point?

02:51:07.080 Like, sure,

02:51:07.640 that's your definition,

02:51:08.820 but why is this important?

02:51:09.940 My point is that

02:51:11.120 it's very clear, again,

02:51:12.540 that men are very benevolent.

02:51:14.460 That's it?

02:51:15.440 Yeah.

02:51:16.120 So you just want

02:51:16.560 a pat on the back?

02:51:17.140 No, I would like to see

02:51:18.880 gratitude in the world

02:51:19.820 for men

02:51:20.400 because it is indeed

02:51:21.960 the case

02:51:22.500 that they have

02:51:24.320 the monopoly on force

02:51:25.440 and at any time,

02:51:26.440 according to their own

02:51:27.180 preferences,

02:51:27.860 could just enslave

02:51:28.540 all women.

02:51:29.500 And, you know,

02:51:29.860 it's really funny

02:51:30.420 because it's like...

02:51:31.260 So wait, I'm sorry.

02:51:32.420 Hold on, hold on.

02:51:32.840 Imagine saying, like...

02:51:33.880 You think that women

02:51:34.780 should thank you

02:51:35.980 for deciding

02:51:37.140 not to enslave us.

02:51:40.140 I mean,

02:51:41.120 the idea here

02:51:42.360 is simple.

02:51:43.640 The idea is that

02:51:44.720 if it is the case

02:51:46.160 that you have people

02:51:48.240 who are drastically weaker,

02:51:49.840 one-people group,

02:51:50.480 other than another-people group,

02:51:51.900 okay?

02:51:52.700 And they can.

02:51:53.760 They can do anything

02:51:54.460 they want to you

02:51:55.280 whenever they want

02:51:56.160 and half the world

02:51:56.780 demonstrates that

02:51:57.440 that's the case.

02:51:58.480 At least in this half

02:51:59.400 of the world,

02:51:59.940 we don't do that.

02:52:01.300 And because we don't do that,

02:52:02.680 women take for granted

02:52:03.720 that the men here

02:52:05.340 are so benevolent

02:52:06.480 that they could take

02:52:07.440 what they wanted

02:52:08.180 and they don't.

02:52:09.880 And it's like, yeah,

02:52:10.700 it's not just about

02:52:11.620 a pat on the back.

02:52:12.540 It's about actually

02:52:13.660 thanking them

02:52:14.280 for every breath

02:52:15.060 of every day

02:52:15.880 because ultimately

02:52:17.000 they could do this

02:52:18.160 and you can't refute

02:52:19.220 that they can.

02:52:20.520 Well, do you believe

02:52:21.480 that there is

02:52:22.660 a moral obligation?

02:52:24.440 Like, what's your...

02:52:25.140 I don't believe

02:52:25.560 that you can justify

02:52:26.400 a moral obligation

02:52:27.120 against it.

02:52:27.140 Well, then I want to ask you.

02:52:28.120 Do you think

02:52:28.420 that there is

02:52:28.840 a moral justification?

02:52:29.620 No, it's not an ought claim.

02:52:30.880 Well, no.

02:52:31.500 Well, it should be.

02:52:32.600 I would like to...

02:52:33.240 It should be an ought claim?

02:52:33.780 I would like to hear

02:52:34.540 your prescriptive...

02:52:35.720 I would like to hear

02:52:36.600 your prescriptive opinion.

02:52:36.740 It's not a prescriptive claim.

02:52:38.020 It's a descriptive claim.

02:52:38.940 I know, and I want it

02:52:39.700 to be prescriptive.

02:52:40.260 I just want to hear

02:52:44.280 that doing the bare minimum

02:52:46.160 is somehow

02:52:47.000 some great thing.

02:52:49.200 Like, what's your moral justification?

02:52:50.020 You mean gratitude?

02:52:50.860 No, not your moral justification

02:52:52.520 for gratitude.

02:52:53.200 I guess what I'm saying is,

02:52:54.420 so, under your analysis,

02:52:56.400 every man,

02:52:58.340 at any point,

02:52:59.480 could just overpower a woman

02:53:00.900 and force his will on her.

02:53:01.960 Yeah.

02:53:02.220 Right?

02:53:02.720 And they choose not to do it.

02:53:04.240 Yeah, they choose not to do it.

02:53:05.080 So, what if they did

02:53:06.280 choose to do it?

02:53:07.140 Yeah.

02:53:07.420 Do you have a moral justification

02:53:09.280 for why that would be okay?

02:53:11.120 I do, but I believe

02:53:12.160 that only my view

02:53:13.540 gives a moral justification

02:53:16.040 and I believe

02:53:16.940 that your view does not.

02:53:17.980 So, I'll give you mine.

02:53:19.080 Okay, so my moral justification

02:53:20.360 is that I make an appeal

02:53:22.340 and I ground my epistemology

02:53:24.440 and ontology

02:53:25.220 in Jesus Christ.

02:53:26.720 And I think that you can't

02:53:27.780 get to knowledge philosophically

02:53:29.300 without having grounding.

02:53:30.940 So, the thing is,

02:53:31.840 is like,

02:53:32.280 that's how I would ground my morals

02:53:33.820 for you ought not do that.

02:53:35.820 However,

02:53:36.820 the problem that you have

02:53:38.220 is that secular states

02:53:39.960 are rising up everywhere.

02:53:41.620 And the appeal to Jesus Christ

02:53:44.340 is not rising up.

02:53:45.880 And so, if it's the case

02:53:46.780 that secularism

02:53:47.740 cannot make an appeal

02:53:48.920 for why men ought not

02:53:50.240 do this outside of preference,

02:53:52.140 then aren't you just

02:53:52.960 laid bare by men's preference?

02:53:55.040 Like, whenever they decide

02:53:56.980 that they prefer to do this,

02:53:58.920 right,

02:53:59.320 what moral thing

02:54:00.400 can you appeal to

02:54:01.240 other than your own preferences

02:54:02.360 that they don't?

02:54:03.260 Wait, so you exclusively believe

02:54:05.240 that something is moral

02:54:06.460 or immoral

02:54:07.240 based on whether or not

02:54:08.660 God told you

02:54:09.740 it was moral or immoral?

02:54:10.280 Based on Christian ethics,

02:54:11.720 divine command,

02:54:12.840 and church history,

02:54:14.220 apostolic succession,

02:54:15.700 the grounding of

02:54:16.760 understanding the transcendentals

02:54:18.240 which are required

02:54:18.960 to be grounded in God

02:54:20.000 for them to even exist.

02:54:21.420 Okay, but the wisdom of God

02:54:22.680 has to be translated

02:54:23.880 through man.

02:54:24.900 So what?

02:54:26.040 So then your morality

02:54:26.920 isn't based on God,

02:54:28.120 it's based on somebody else's

02:54:29.240 interpretation of God's will.

02:54:30.040 Okay, sure.

02:54:30.980 So then,

02:54:31.520 all it does is get us

02:54:32.720 back to preferences,

02:54:34.240 right?

02:54:34.640 I'm fine with that too.

02:54:35.680 So you're back to this

02:54:36.460 preference-based

02:54:37.220 sense of morality.

02:54:38.480 So if that's the case...

02:54:39.280 Which was justifying slavery.

02:54:40.660 Okay, so can I just...

02:54:41.640 Yes, your morality

02:54:42.360 justifies slavery.

02:54:43.280 I agree.

02:54:44.380 Yes.

02:54:44.920 No, but Andrew,

02:54:45.880 you're the one who believes

02:54:47.340 in preference-based morality.

02:54:48.760 You have said that.

02:54:48.960 So do you.

02:54:49.520 No, I don't.

02:54:50.120 Then give me the grounding

02:54:51.040 where it's not preference-based.

02:54:52.500 I believe that morality

02:54:53.600 is objective.

02:54:55.240 You don't?

02:54:55.840 Yes, I do.

02:54:56.660 I've said it multiple times.

02:54:58.100 Objective means

02:54:59.220 exist absent minds.

02:55:02.380 Yes.

02:55:03.120 I do believe that morality

02:55:04.040 is just absent minds.

02:55:04.280 Where does it exist

02:55:05.120 absent minds?

02:55:06.060 Well, it's not

02:55:06.480 a physical concept.

02:55:07.480 Then if all human beings

02:55:08.580 die tomorrow,

02:55:09.320 is there things

02:55:10.140 that are still moral

02:55:10.760 or immoral?

02:55:11.440 Yeah.

02:55:12.820 How is that possible?

02:55:14.120 Well, there's other life

02:55:15.020 on earth, Andrew.

02:55:16.960 So if a lion eats

02:55:18.120 a fucking rabbit,

02:55:19.040 is it moral?

02:55:20.600 Well, no.

02:55:21.620 I mean, yes, sorry.

02:55:22.780 It is?

02:55:23.620 It's a form of sustenance.

02:55:25.260 I mean, we eat chicken

02:55:26.080 every time.

02:55:26.920 Wait a second.

02:55:29.560 So...

02:55:29.980 So you don't believe

02:55:30.540 that there are any

02:55:31.560 objective moral...

02:55:32.960 I'm making sure

02:55:33.540 I got this right.

02:55:34.880 If it's the case

02:55:36.140 that all human beings

02:55:37.780 on planet earth

02:55:38.620 are dead,

02:55:39.320 there's no more minds,

02:55:41.200 there is still...

02:55:42.620 Hang on.

02:55:43.120 There is still morality?

02:55:44.340 But there are still minds.

02:55:45.560 Yeah, I know.

02:55:45.940 There's monkeys

02:55:46.520 and tigers and lions.

02:55:47.840 No, no, no, no, no.

02:55:48.480 There are still minds.

02:55:49.280 Oh, okay.

02:55:50.220 So how does morality exist then?

02:55:52.600 Is it monkey morality?

02:55:54.560 I mean, yeah.

02:55:55.400 Kind of.

02:55:55.740 So is there objective

02:55:56.900 human morality?

02:55:58.020 I think that there is

02:55:58.640 objective human morality.

02:55:59.720 Okay, so how does it exist?

02:56:01.560 Absent mind.

02:56:02.220 You got to get her

02:56:02.780 to answer, dude.

02:56:03.520 She's just going to pivot.

02:56:04.520 Because there's other

02:56:05.240 animals on earth.

02:56:06.320 You got to answer

02:56:06.960 this question.

02:56:07.560 Listen, you have to

02:56:08.480 answer this.

02:56:09.600 All human minds are gone.

02:56:12.180 All of them.

02:56:13.420 Every one.

02:56:14.380 There was a plague

02:56:15.200 and every human died, right?

02:56:17.920 What would then make a thing

02:56:19.500 objectively moral or immoral?

02:56:22.180 Meaning, there's no more minds

02:56:24.600 and it exists somewhere

02:56:26.460 as being moral or immoral

02:56:27.920 absent an interpreter.

02:56:29.240 Yeah, I mean,

02:56:29.520 the concept of objective

02:56:31.300 morality would still exist.

02:56:32.700 How?

02:56:32.940 There's no minds.

02:56:33.920 There would just be no one

02:56:34.040 there to see it.

02:56:35.340 Then who could come up

02:56:36.180 with the concept?

02:56:37.940 It already exists.

02:56:39.200 How could it exist

02:56:40.040 without you coming up with it?

02:56:41.280 Because we're already alive.

02:56:42.360 We're here right now.

02:56:43.260 So just because we died tomorrow

02:56:44.620 doesn't mean what happened

02:56:45.800 hasn't already happened.

02:56:46.760 If you're all dead,

02:56:48.340 if everyone's dead,

02:56:49.940 how can concepts exist?

02:56:51.700 Okay, Andrew,

02:56:52.740 I'll humor you.

02:56:53.260 If humans never existed,

02:56:56.480 then human morality

02:56:57.380 would not exist either.

02:56:58.320 No, so if humans

02:56:59.200 no longer exist,

02:57:00.300 then human morality

02:57:00.940 also no longer exists.

02:57:02.320 Well, it was already invented.

02:57:05.280 It already exists.

02:57:06.520 So yes, we would be gone,

02:57:07.900 like we wouldn't be there

02:57:08.500 to record it,

02:57:09.080 but it still exists.

02:57:10.260 It's a concept.

02:57:10.980 Where does it exist?

02:57:11.820 A concept is immoral.

02:57:13.100 It's immortal.

02:57:14.220 No, concepts are not immortal.

02:57:15.760 Well, people wrote them down,

02:57:16.780 so there, it's there.

02:57:17.720 Who's there to read them?

02:57:18.720 Nobody, so it doesn't get them.

02:57:19.680 So then how do they exist?

02:57:20.720 It doesn't matter,

02:57:21.840 but it still exists.

02:57:23.240 No, it doesn't.

02:57:23.860 Something can exist

02:57:24.360 without mattering.

02:57:25.440 Where could it possibly exist?

02:57:27.120 In a book.

02:57:27.720 Have you seen one?

02:57:28.700 A book that nobody can read?

02:57:30.300 Yes.

02:57:30.720 Because nobody's there?

02:57:31.920 But it still exists.

02:57:32.980 How do you,

02:57:33.440 how does a concept?

02:57:34.500 Andrew, there's a difference

02:57:35.420 between existence

02:57:36.400 and whether or not

02:57:37.840 and importance.

02:57:38.720 I would agree a book would exist

02:57:40.080 and a book would have words on it.

02:57:41.420 So if somebody wrote down

02:57:42.840 all of the objective moral principles

02:57:45.560 that we have learned

02:57:47.060 through humanity

02:57:48.400 and basic human instinct

02:57:50.160 and human experience,

02:57:52.160 it would still exist.

02:57:53.680 No, just the book would exist,

02:57:54.880 not the concept.

02:57:55.660 The concept is in the book.

02:57:57.480 There's words in books.

02:57:58.820 That's why we read them.

02:58:00.260 Doesn't, doesn't a book

02:58:01.760 require a mind to interpret it?

02:58:04.160 Sure, so it wouldn't matter,

02:58:05.960 but it still exists.

02:58:08.100 Only the book exists.

02:58:09.780 Yes, and the book

02:58:11.440 has the concept in it.

02:58:13.940 Oh my God.

02:58:15.040 There's a recorded version

02:58:17.520 of this concept.

02:58:19.260 So it continues to exist,

02:58:21.960 but there is no one there

02:58:23.420 to observe it.

02:58:26.200 Do you not get that?

02:58:27.720 Nope, not at all.

02:58:28.500 How does a concept exist

02:58:29.500 if somebody's not around

02:58:30.620 to observe it?

02:58:31.200 If a tree falls,

02:58:32.360 it exists because it was created

02:58:34.120 and documented, right?

02:58:36.640 And now humans no longer exist,

02:58:38.800 but the concept is still there.

02:58:40.180 Just like the diary band Frank

02:58:41.640 still exists,

02:58:42.360 even though she doesn't, right?

02:58:44.020 The concepts that she wrote

02:58:45.760 in that book are still there,

02:58:47.360 even though she isn't.

02:58:48.820 That's why we fucking

02:58:49.840 write things down.

02:58:51.180 Do books require interpreters?

02:58:52.820 Yes, so it wouldn't matter

02:58:54.220 at that point,

02:58:54.960 but it still exists.

02:58:56.500 So, hang on.

02:58:57.980 A book exists,

02:58:59.260 a concept does not exist

02:59:00.520 because it requires

02:59:01.340 a mind and an interpreter.

02:59:02.660 The concept does exist.

02:59:04.000 No.

02:59:04.320 It just doesn't matter.

02:59:05.220 No.

02:59:05.720 Yes.

02:59:06.160 No.

02:59:06.880 Human morality would still exist,

02:59:08.720 but if there's no humans,

02:59:09.960 then it doesn't matter.

02:59:11.100 Help me out here.

02:59:12.140 Let us pretend for a moment

02:59:13.680 that you came across

02:59:14.540 a book full of alien writings

02:59:16.340 that had all of their morals in it.

02:59:18.700 Sure.

02:59:19.200 And you couldn't read the book.

02:59:20.380 Okay.

02:59:20.800 How could the,

02:59:21.500 and all these aliens were dead.

02:59:23.160 Okay.

02:59:23.480 How could the concept now exist?

02:59:25.160 Well, the concept is still there

02:59:26.700 and it still exists,

02:59:27.560 but the humans don't.

02:59:28.600 I mean,

02:59:28.840 or the aliens don't.

02:59:29.980 Andrew,

02:59:30.220 do you not understand

02:59:31.260 when something can be objective

02:59:33.140 without being physical?

02:59:35.140 Like,

02:59:35.480 something can't exist

02:59:36.500 if it didn't have

02:59:37.260 a physical form.

02:59:38.580 Dude,

02:59:38.820 we gotta put you

02:59:39.320 in like a biology class

02:59:40.260 or something.

02:59:40.520 How do you not get this?

02:59:42.380 Like,

02:59:42.620 why are we going around

02:59:43.400 in circles about this?

02:59:44.480 It's kind of a basic concept.

02:59:46.040 Yeah.

02:59:46.320 And I'm basically

02:59:47.180 trying to figure this out.

02:59:48.340 And you're basically struggling.

02:59:49.960 I'm,

02:59:50.200 that's true.

02:59:51.600 I am totally struggling with this.

02:59:53.340 You don't think

02:59:53.800 that something can exist

02:59:54.900 even after,

02:59:56.620 it doesn't matter.

02:59:57.420 It's not important anymore

02:59:58.620 because humans aren't there,

03:00:00.180 but it still happened

03:00:01.240 and it still exists.

03:00:01.960 So,

03:00:02.600 do you think that

03:00:03.380 if I write a concept

03:00:05.100 down on a piece of paper,

03:00:06.840 like,

03:00:07.200 do not kill

03:00:08.940 all men named Chuck.

03:00:11.460 Okay.

03:00:12.000 All men named Chuck,

03:00:13.440 right?

03:00:14.760 And I die.

03:00:16.340 Okay.

03:00:16.860 Okay.

03:00:17.540 And there's nobody around.

03:00:19.460 Mm-hmm.

03:00:20.020 Is it now

03:00:20.720 objectively true

03:00:23.180 that it is immoral

03:00:24.880 to not kill Chuck?

03:00:27.920 Well,

03:00:28.440 you don't get to decide

03:00:29.280 objective morality

03:00:30.240 as an individual.

03:00:30.840 Then who does?

03:00:31.960 It's a collective.

03:00:33.440 So,

03:00:34.000 the collective gets to decide.

03:00:35.760 I mean,

03:00:36.200 so you think

03:00:36.820 that it should be sky daddy

03:00:37.700 and I think it should be

03:00:38.820 based on the will.

03:00:40.140 The collective will.

03:00:41.300 It's an object,

03:00:42.920 it's object morality

03:00:44.540 on the basis

03:00:45.480 of the experiences

03:00:46.700 of the collective.

03:00:47.720 Okay,

03:00:48.060 so if,

03:00:48.520 I do think that there is

03:00:49.340 an objective good and bad.

03:00:50.760 So,

03:00:51.080 if,

03:00:51.380 if I write,

03:00:52.100 I don't believe

03:00:52.680 that the collective will

03:00:53.940 is what determines

03:00:55.360 that morality.

03:00:55.840 The whole of the law

03:00:57.040 shall be

03:00:57.700 you do not kill Chuck

03:00:59.240 and the majority of people

03:01:00.640 agree with me

03:01:01.200 before I die

03:01:02.120 and we all die,

03:01:03.640 is that now

03:01:04.440 what's objectively moral?

03:01:06.940 What the fuck

03:01:07.760 are you talking about?

03:01:08.460 Go back.

03:01:08.840 If most people agree

03:01:09.980 with the,

03:01:11.520 my only commandment

03:01:12.780 of do not kill Chuck

03:01:14.060 and almost everybody

03:01:15.440 agrees with me

03:01:16.180 and we all die

03:01:17.620 but I have left behind

03:01:18.820 this little pamphlet

03:01:19.800 that says

03:01:20.240 do not kill Chuck

03:01:21.160 and it's now written down,

03:01:22.300 is that objectively

03:01:24.060 moral now?

03:01:25.060 Well,

03:01:25.660 it doesn't matter

03:01:26.120 because we're all dead.

03:01:27.720 So sure,

03:01:28.260 maybe it is

03:01:28.820 but it doesn't matter.

03:01:29.780 That's what I'm saying.

03:01:30.820 It can still exist

03:01:31.780 but it doesn't matter.

03:01:33.620 This is literally the point.

03:01:34.740 It exists.

03:01:35.100 Is that objectively

03:01:36.260 moral or not?

03:01:38.620 What the fuck?

03:01:39.220 We're not talking about

03:01:39.980 whether or not

03:01:40.460 that is objectively moral.

03:01:41.620 We're talking about

03:01:42.100 whether or not

03:01:42.480 something can exist

03:01:43.260 after the human race dies.

03:01:44.920 No,

03:01:45.520 we weren't.

03:01:46.060 Yeah,

03:01:46.260 that was what you

03:01:46.860 were not understanding.

03:01:47.600 We're only discussing

03:01:48.200 objective

03:01:48.820 versus subjective morality.

03:01:50.920 The idea here

03:01:51.660 is very simple,

03:01:52.500 right?

03:01:53.880 You keep on claiming

03:01:54.900 that I believe

03:01:56.560 that morality

03:01:57.060 is based on preferences

03:01:57.960 but I keep demonstrating

03:01:59.120 over and over again

03:01:59.960 so do you.

03:02:00.940 I don't know why

03:02:01.700 you won't concede the point.

03:02:02.680 You look ridiculous.

03:02:03.760 I don't look ridiculous.

03:02:05.020 I'm not the one

03:02:05.660 who just justified slavery

03:02:07.060 based on your own version

03:02:08.580 of prescriptive morality.

03:02:08.600 You don't understand

03:02:09.040 how bad this is going to be.

03:02:10.500 I'm telling you,

03:02:11.060 you don't even understand

03:02:11.740 how bad this is.

03:02:12.520 Well,

03:02:12.820 I'm sure your fan

03:02:13.940 will really appreciate it.

03:02:15.340 No,

03:02:15.540 it's not my fan.

03:02:16.180 Can we go back to...

03:02:17.380 We can't because...

03:02:18.620 No,

03:02:19.020 you just don't want to have

03:02:20.080 to defend the morality

03:02:20.920 of force doctrine.

03:02:21.720 That's what this is about.

03:02:22.880 How could...

03:02:23.440 Aha!

03:02:23.960 You don't want to defend

03:02:25.360 the morality

03:02:25.920 of using coercive power.

03:02:27.560 Is force doctrine

03:02:28.300 objectively not moral?

03:02:31.180 I think that using

03:02:32.000 coercive power

03:02:33.040 against the consent

03:02:34.280 of those you

03:02:35.180 are using that power on

03:02:36.460 is immoral.

03:02:37.280 Prove it.

03:02:38.680 It's immoral

03:02:39.260 because it's causing

03:02:40.160 human suffering.

03:02:41.680 And what grounds

03:02:43.000 human suffering

03:02:43.700 as being what is immoral?

03:02:45.380 I believe that

03:02:46.280 natural law dictates

03:02:47.600 human suffering

03:02:48.380 is objectively bad.

03:02:49.720 And so does your God.

03:02:50.960 We both agree on that

03:02:52.260 in my secular framework

03:02:53.500 and in your religious framework.

03:02:55.140 Well,

03:02:55.460 hang on,

03:02:55.820 hang on.

03:02:56.680 Wait,

03:02:57.040 you believe in a God?

03:02:58.540 No,

03:02:58.820 I said in my secular framework

03:03:00.180 and your religious framework.

03:03:00.840 I see.

03:03:01.300 So what grounds

03:03:02.320 natural rights

03:03:03.020 as being objectively true?

03:03:04.880 I believe natural rights

03:03:06.160 are grounded

03:03:06.620 as being objectively true

03:03:08.040 based on human experience.

03:03:10.800 So if humans

03:03:12.160 have the experience

03:03:12.900 they're not true,

03:03:13.420 are they still true?

03:03:15.540 What?

03:03:16.060 If a human being

03:03:17.100 has an experience

03:03:17.880 that tells them

03:03:18.400 natural rights are not true,

03:03:19.580 are they still true?

03:03:20.280 Well,

03:03:20.780 that's a singular human.

03:03:21.740 This is collective human experience.

03:03:23.140 I'm not a collectivist,

03:03:24.480 just to clarify.

03:03:25.380 Okay,

03:03:25.620 so collectively,

03:03:27.600 if collectively

03:03:28.560 human beings

03:03:29.620 experiences

03:03:30.480 that natural rights

03:03:31.560 are not true

03:03:32.280 or natural law

03:03:32.920 is not true,

03:03:33.520 then natural law

03:03:34.040 is not true?

03:03:35.700 If collectively

03:03:36.620 humans experience

03:03:37.620 that natural laws

03:03:38.340 are not true?

03:03:39.300 Well,

03:03:39.660 certain natural laws

03:03:40.480 are just like killing

03:03:41.160 is bad.

03:03:41.540 No,

03:03:41.580 answer my question.

03:03:42.640 If collectively

03:03:43.620 human beings

03:03:44.400 don't,

03:03:45.460 through their own experience,

03:03:46.660 do not believe

03:03:47.560 natural laws

03:03:48.480 are true,

03:03:49.980 are they still true?

03:03:51.220 Well,

03:03:51.380 let's pick a natural law.

03:03:52.500 Suffering causes harm.

03:03:54.660 So,

03:03:55.460 or harm causes suffering.

03:03:56.940 No,

03:03:57.120 not always.

03:03:58.040 Sometimes.

03:03:58.940 Okay,

03:03:59.480 physical harm

03:04:00.420 causes suffering.

03:04:01.160 only sometimes.

03:04:02.440 Non-consensual physical harm

03:04:04.220 causes suffering.

03:04:05.660 Only sometimes.

03:04:06.280 Every human agreed

03:04:07.620 that non-consensual

03:04:09.420 physical harm

03:04:10.060 causes suffering.

03:04:11.200 If somebody

03:04:11.780 stabbed Brian

03:04:12.640 in the neck

03:04:13.320 and he suffered

03:04:14.440 because he was

03:04:16.360 physically harmed,

03:04:17.260 it's still true.

03:04:18.560 Sorry,

03:04:19.020 Brian.

03:04:19.220 It's true that

03:04:19.640 he got stabbed

03:04:20.140 in the neck,

03:04:20.800 but you haven't

03:04:21.640 demonstrated how

03:04:22.480 it's true

03:04:23.100 that that's immoral.

03:04:24.160 Because it's

03:04:24.620 objectively true.

03:04:26.360 No,

03:04:26.760 him getting stabbed

03:04:27.580 in the neck

03:04:27.960 is true,

03:04:28.520 but how is it

03:04:29.400 immoral?

03:04:30.300 I'm talking about

03:04:31.320 natural laws

03:04:32.420 being objective,

03:04:33.880 even if collectively

03:04:34.280 we disagree with them.

03:04:36.920 So is natural law

03:04:37.820 a descriptor

03:04:38.420 of things that happen?

03:04:41.520 Some of them.

03:04:42.920 Somewhat.

03:04:43.780 I mean,

03:04:44.200 suffering causing harm

03:04:45.460 is not just a descriptor

03:04:46.520 of things that happen.

03:04:47.260 Let's start with this.

03:04:48.020 What is natural law?

03:04:49.120 Let's just make sure

03:04:49.700 I get it right.

03:04:50.700 Natural law

03:04:51.320 is the collective belief

03:04:52.840 that humans

03:04:53.640 can define

03:04:54.900 that there are

03:04:55.880 objective truths

03:04:56.960 about morality,

03:04:58.020 about good and bad,

03:04:59.500 based on human experience.

03:05:00.820 So it's collective belief.

03:05:02.380 It's not collective belief.

03:05:03.720 You just said

03:05:07.520 natural law

03:05:08.280 is the collective belief.

03:05:10.060 Okay,

03:05:10.320 well,

03:05:10.520 it's some people's belief

03:05:11.740 that things can be

03:05:12.920 objective,

03:05:13.340 that actions can be

03:05:14.260 objectively good or bad.

03:05:14.540 So what is natural law?

03:05:15.720 What is it?

03:05:16.740 It's the objective belief

03:05:18.080 that some things

03:05:19.260 are objectively

03:05:20.100 good or bad.

03:05:21.600 What?

03:05:22.360 Oh my God.

03:05:23.000 Andrew,

03:05:23.420 you just really don't want to

03:05:24.580 have to defend

03:05:25.680 morality.

03:05:25.720 This is what I am

03:05:26.660 defending it right now.

03:05:27.580 You're not defending

03:05:28.100 the morality of forced doctrine

03:05:29.180 because you have not

03:05:30.060 made an opinion

03:05:30.760 on whether or not

03:05:31.660 forced doctrine

03:05:32.300 is moral or immoral.

03:05:33.380 I did.

03:05:33.940 I literally told you

03:05:35.260 what my morality is.

03:05:36.840 So you believe

03:05:37.300 that forced doctrine

03:05:37.900 is moral?

03:05:38.340 Sometimes.

03:05:39.220 In which instances?

03:05:40.280 Well,

03:05:40.540 I would say

03:05:41.480 if you're utilizing

03:05:43.080 forced doctrine

03:05:44.080 in the reasonable response

03:05:47.200 to how the Lord

03:05:47.980 would ask you to operate,

03:05:49.340 then it would be fine.

03:05:50.180 In what instances

03:05:51.000 would the Lord

03:05:51.520 justify harm?

03:05:53.180 You mean harm?

03:05:54.100 Well,

03:05:54.360 all sorts of different instances.

03:05:56.200 Self-defense,

03:05:57.000 for instance.

03:05:57.800 Okay.

03:05:58.440 Warfare,

03:05:58.980 for instance.

03:05:59.760 What warfare is justified?

03:06:00.120 There could be possibilities

03:06:01.160 where you need,

03:06:01.960 well,

03:06:02.260 you could.

03:06:02.680 What warfare has been

03:06:03.480 justified by God?

03:06:05.020 Oh,

03:06:05.200 well,

03:06:05.360 tons of warfare

03:06:05.940 has been justified by God.

03:06:07.080 Which ones?

03:06:07.900 You mean in the Old Testament?

03:06:09.060 No,

03:06:09.280 I'm talking about

03:06:10.100 currently,

03:06:11.300 what human warfare,

03:06:12.600 I mean,

03:06:13.040 God,

03:06:13.520 like,

03:06:14.040 deciding to smite someone

03:06:14.820 is not warfare.

03:06:15.220 Do you think that,

03:06:16.000 do you think,

03:06:16.360 what human warfare

03:06:17.120 has been justified by God?

03:06:18.960 I don't know what that means.

03:06:20.660 Justified by God.

03:06:21.740 When did we,

03:06:22.860 as a species,

03:06:23.960 go to war,

03:06:24.940 and God was like,

03:06:26.180 that is good.

03:06:27.760 Oh,

03:06:28.140 I mean,

03:06:28.520 there was tons of times

03:06:29.240 in the Old Testament

03:06:29.780 where God actually,

03:06:30.800 where God ordered them.

03:06:32.200 Sure,

03:06:32.380 I'll pull up the scripture.

03:06:33.520 Do you want the scriptures

03:06:34.320 where God ordered people

03:06:35.440 to go to war?

03:06:38.260 Here you go.

03:06:49.520 I mean,

03:06:50.040 that's fucking crazy

03:06:50.840 that you don't know this,

03:06:52.000 but here you go.

03:06:53.700 All right.

03:06:54.400 Man,

03:06:54.680 this is your religion,

03:06:55.540 Andrew.

03:06:55.720 You shouldn't have to Google it.

03:06:57.160 Well,

03:06:57.360 I just want to be precise.

03:06:58.680 That's fair.

03:06:59.800 Okay.

03:07:00.700 Old Testament,

03:07:02.880 God commands war.

03:07:05.940 I mean,

03:07:06.420 he wiped out the Nephilim.

03:07:07.440 I mean,

03:07:07.640 he did all kinds of things.

03:07:08.940 So,

03:07:09.520 yeah,

03:07:10.960 key examples include

03:07:11.860 the conquest of Canaan

03:07:13.080 where God commands

03:07:13.840 the destruction

03:07:14.300 of the Canaanites.

03:07:16.580 I mean,

03:07:17.080 that's one example

03:07:17.740 right off the top of it,

03:07:18.840 but he's actually

03:07:19.800 many times

03:07:20.980 created justifications

03:07:23.040 for war.

03:07:23.880 So,

03:07:23.900 I guess,

03:07:24.180 I want to understand

03:07:25.080 your morality a little bit

03:07:26.240 because I'm,

03:07:26.820 you have to familiarize me

03:07:28.040 because I'm,

03:07:28.580 I'm not myself a Christian.

03:07:30.380 So,

03:07:30.740 because God justified

03:07:32.740 that instance of war,

03:07:35.920 do you believe

03:07:36.440 that God is justifying

03:07:37.520 all instances of war?

03:07:39.280 No.

03:07:40.000 Okay,

03:07:40.320 so,

03:07:41.180 according to God,

03:07:43.020 when is war justified

03:07:44.160 and when is war

03:07:44.980 not unjustified?

03:07:46.460 Well,

03:07:46.800 that's a loaded question,

03:07:48.060 but I'll try to answer it

03:07:48.860 as best I can.

03:07:50.660 Concepts of war

03:07:51.340 are generally justified

03:07:52.300 through the ideas

03:07:53.080 of self-defense.

03:07:54.500 The rigors

03:07:54.920 of what would happen

03:07:55.760 inside of collective warfare

03:07:57.340 would be,

03:07:58.260 it would necessarily

03:07:58.940 have to follow

03:07:59.420 Christian ethics

03:08:00.160 so you couldn't do things

03:08:01.040 like SA women,

03:08:02.480 you couldn't,

03:08:02.880 you couldn't,

03:08:03.280 you couldn't do

03:08:04.120 any of those things.

03:08:05.080 They would be restricted

03:08:05.980 by the New Testament

03:08:08.120 gospels.

03:08:09.080 Okay,

03:08:09.420 so would you say

03:08:10.040 that it's fair

03:08:10.920 to assert

03:08:12.320 that God generally,

03:08:14.740 because I know

03:08:15.240 that do not kill

03:08:15.880 is a commandment.

03:08:16.780 Do not murder.

03:08:17.980 Well,

03:08:18.520 killing and murdering

03:08:19.180 are equivalent,

03:08:19.820 but.

03:08:20.060 No,

03:08:20.240 they're not the equivalent.

03:08:21.400 To an extent,

03:08:22.320 but.

03:08:22.640 Not to an extent.

03:08:23.500 For the context

03:08:24.020 of this debate.

03:08:24.600 Oh,

03:08:24.720 it's an aggregate lawyer.

03:08:25.560 Okay,

03:08:25.960 so we know that God says.

03:08:27.700 This is basic philosophy.

03:08:29.240 Hold on.

03:08:30.880 I actually want to look that up.

03:08:31.820 Yeah,

03:08:32.060 killing and murder

03:08:32.640 are two different things.

03:08:36.460 I agree that killing

03:08:37.440 and murdering are justified.

03:08:38.220 one is not justified.

03:08:39.040 No,

03:08:39.140 I agree that killing

03:08:39.780 and murdering

03:08:40.280 are different things,

03:08:41.020 but I didn't know

03:08:43.000 that God justified those.

03:08:45.360 Oh,

03:08:45.540 yeah,

03:08:45.680 so it's thou shalt not kill.

03:08:46.800 Okay.

03:08:47.200 It's thou shalt not murder.

03:08:48.460 I mean,

03:08:48.800 the actual quote

03:08:49.920 in the Bible

03:08:50.780 is thou shalt not kill.

03:08:51.320 Not in the Septuagint,

03:08:52.740 which is the origination

03:08:53.780 of the Bible

03:08:54.280 that we're reading.

03:08:54.940 It's thou shalt not murder.

03:08:56.000 So you're not using

03:08:56.580 the King James edition

03:08:57.520 of the Bible?

03:08:58.180 The NKJV.

03:08:58.660 So you just wrote

03:08:59.260 your own Bible?

03:08:59.680 The NKJV,

03:09:00.540 we use the Septuagint.

03:09:02.560 Where did the King James Bible

03:09:03.640 come from?

03:09:04.440 Do you even know?

03:09:05.620 No.

03:09:05.940 Then what are you talking about?

03:09:07.080 I have no idea

03:09:07.800 about the historic standard.

03:09:09.040 It is thou shalt not murder.

03:09:10.600 So you just got

03:09:11.360 the quote wrong,

03:09:12.360 though.

03:09:14.240 What?

03:09:14.820 It's literally,

03:09:15.920 ask Google

03:09:16.700 while I'm sitting here.

03:09:18.020 Is it thou shalt not kill

03:09:19.200 or thou shalt not murder?

03:09:20.560 Ask it.

03:09:24.460 In older translations,

03:09:25.780 it is phrased

03:09:26.500 as thou shalt not king

03:09:27.360 and in newer ones

03:09:27.980 as thou shalt not murder.

03:09:28.660 Oh,

03:09:28.900 so I was right again.

03:09:30.220 I mean,

03:09:30.760 we were kind of both.

03:09:31.660 No,

03:09:31.980 you were just wrong.

03:09:32.880 It's thou shalt not kill

03:09:33.860 in some versions.

03:09:33.880 You've been wrong

03:09:34.360 this whole debate.

03:09:35.000 And if thou shalt not kill

03:09:36.260 and murder in others.

03:09:37.480 No,

03:09:37.780 in the original,

03:09:38.820 no,

03:09:39.180 the translation.

03:09:39.700 In the original,

03:09:40.400 it was thou shalt not kill.

03:09:41.520 Yes.

03:09:41.780 And then they changed

03:09:42.360 as thou shalt not murder.

03:09:43.640 It's murder.

03:09:44.420 But it's both.

03:09:45.300 It was both.

03:09:46.320 Like,

03:09:46.620 anyway,

03:09:47.360 so God just only,

03:09:49.860 so you cannot murder

03:09:51.600 according to God.

03:09:53.360 But the only justification

03:09:54.760 for murdering or killing

03:09:57.620 either one

03:09:58.520 is self-defense

03:09:59.480 according to your God.

03:10:00.820 Well,

03:10:01.520 it can,

03:10:02.000 it depends on what we're

03:10:03.260 considering self-defense to be.

03:10:05.180 There can be other instances

03:10:06.340 where there could be

03:10:07.160 justifiable killings

03:10:08.440 that fall outside

03:10:10.500 of self-defense.

03:10:11.880 Like what?

03:10:13.060 Well,

03:10:13.280 like,

03:10:13.540 I don't consider it murder

03:10:14.680 if I'm working on top

03:10:16.120 of like a fucking bridge

03:10:17.280 and I accidentally

03:10:17.720 kick a wrench off

03:10:18.620 and it falls down

03:10:19.260 and it hits somebody

03:10:19.860 in the head

03:10:20.220 and they die.

03:10:21.040 Well,

03:10:21.280 I think that's negligence.

03:10:22.860 I don't consider that,

03:10:24.180 but it's killing someone,

03:10:25.460 but I don't,

03:10:26.860 I don't consider those

03:10:27.680 categorically the same

03:10:28.860 because I think murder

03:10:29.780 requires intent.

03:10:30.960 You don't or God doesn't.

03:10:32.520 Same.

03:10:33.060 It would be,

03:10:33.460 it'd be the idea

03:10:34.060 of intentionality.

03:10:35.100 Okay.

03:10:35.400 So under your religious framework,

03:10:38.660 intentional murder.

03:10:41.100 Yeah.

03:10:42.520 Okay.

03:10:43.220 Intentional murder is bad,

03:10:44.600 right?

03:10:45.080 Can't do that.

03:10:45.840 You're going to go to hell.

03:10:46.860 Yeah.

03:10:47.000 So then under your religious framework,

03:10:48.840 forced doctrine is immoral.

03:10:51.340 No,

03:10:51.500 it's not.

03:10:52.000 Yes,

03:10:52.340 it is.

03:10:52.940 No,

03:10:53.140 it's not.

03:10:53.760 I mean,

03:10:54.160 it is.

03:10:54.620 Can you explain how?

03:10:55.460 But why do you deserve a cookie

03:10:57.000 from women for not choosing

03:10:58.760 to murder us?

03:10:59.480 Now you're just changing

03:10:59.580 the goalpost.

03:11:00.260 I know.

03:11:00.800 You just said under my,

03:11:01.880 my religious framework,

03:11:03.080 forced doctrine is immoral.

03:11:04.120 Now fucking demonstrate it

03:11:05.200 and stop playing games.

03:11:06.680 Excuse me.

03:11:07.140 Like literally demonstrate it.

03:11:08.940 Oh my God.

03:11:10.440 Demonstrate it.

03:11:11.580 I love it when you get mad.

03:11:12.760 Demonstrate it.

03:11:13.780 I mean,

03:11:14.100 under your definition of what is moral

03:11:16.900 and immoral based on your God,

03:11:18.840 which I don't necessarily disagree with,

03:11:20.920 but under that definition,

03:11:22.740 it would be immoral to suddenly impose

03:11:26.220 your will using coercive power on a woman

03:11:30.040 and kill her or murder her.

03:11:32.660 Wait a second.

03:11:33.100 Either one.

03:11:33.820 I'm sorry.

03:11:34.880 How does this in any way dispute forced doctrine?

03:11:38.780 It disputes the morality of you thinking

03:11:41.140 you deserve a pat on the back

03:11:42.720 for choosing not to murder women every day.

03:11:45.200 Wait a second.

03:11:45.920 I'm sorry.

03:11:46.640 Let me,

03:11:46.780 let me,

03:11:47.100 I mean,

03:11:47.200 you started this,

03:11:47.840 hold on.

03:11:48.220 Let's go back.

03:11:48.760 Cause you started this debate

03:11:49.680 by saying that women,

03:11:51.120 I just can't even believe this.

03:11:52.500 No,

03:11:52.780 I mean,

03:11:53.080 Andrew,

03:11:53.660 I feel like you're just struggling

03:11:54.880 to understand your own ideas.

03:11:56.720 I am struggling to understand.

03:11:57.700 You started this debate by saying

03:11:59.240 that women deserve,

03:12:01.040 should thank you.

03:12:02.060 We should thank you so much

03:12:03.720 for choosing every day

03:12:06.400 not to violently harm us

03:12:08.960 and murder us

03:12:09.800 and kill us.

03:12:10.720 But your God tells you not to.

03:12:13.500 So why should we thank you

03:12:14.980 for following the basic rules of morality

03:12:18.300 set by your God?

03:12:20.040 So then I think,

03:12:20.760 you haven't done me a favor.

03:12:21.900 So then in this case,

03:12:22.660 you've just gotten yourself into heaven.

03:12:24.460 So isn't the logical extension of this

03:12:25.860 that you should thank my God?

03:12:28.240 That's not you though.

03:12:29.700 Like,

03:12:29.940 why do you deserve credit for that?

03:12:31.120 Then say thank you to my God.

03:12:32.700 I'm not saying thank you to your God.

03:12:33.580 Well then,

03:12:33.940 what are you even talking about?

03:12:35.500 But this,

03:12:36.260 you started this debate by saying

03:12:37.440 I should say thank you to men,

03:12:39.180 to you.

03:12:39.840 No,

03:12:40.480 I actually started this debate

03:12:41.820 explaining that absolute,

03:12:43.600 you were actually just proven wrong

03:12:43.960 because you wanted me to thank men.

03:12:45.260 Not only was I not proven wrong,

03:12:47.020 but instead I should be thanking God.

03:12:48.260 You gotta stop filibustering.

03:12:49.160 You just conceded.

03:12:50.100 Are you gonna let her filibuster

03:12:50.960 the whole time?

03:12:51.040 It was a concession.

03:12:52.340 You gotta let them speak, please.

03:12:53.580 Well,

03:12:53.880 after your concession,

03:12:54.840 let's hear your...

03:12:55.340 All you do is filibusters.

03:12:56.760 So look,

03:12:57.500 we're gonna make this super easy.

03:12:58.960 Actually,

03:12:59.340 at the start of the debate,

03:13:00.140 you're wrong.

03:13:00.900 I said,

03:13:01.940 only through my view

03:13:03.580 can rights be justified

03:13:05.320 for anybody,

03:13:06.520 including women.

03:13:07.340 Only through my view of God

03:13:09.060 can rights be justified.

03:13:10.700 And what did you end up doing here?

03:13:12.560 Proving that the only justification

03:13:14.460 we've ever come up with

03:13:15.860 for why any of this

03:13:16.840 would be wrong,

03:13:17.540 right,

03:13:17.720 or otherwise

03:13:18.280 is my God.

03:13:19.960 You have presented...

03:13:21.660 That is not the only reason.

03:13:21.800 You have presented nothing.

03:13:23.500 I'm using your ethical framework.

03:13:25.080 Stop filibustering.

03:13:26.300 Fuck,

03:13:26.840 stop filibustering.

03:13:27.960 So all you do is filibuster.

03:13:29.540 Just let him finish, though.

03:13:30.920 Well,

03:13:31.260 I mean,

03:13:31.580 at some point,

03:13:32.480 you have to let the other person speak.

03:13:34.480 So the thing is,

03:13:35.600 is like,

03:13:36.000 look,

03:13:36.860 not only have I...

03:13:38.080 We demonstrated

03:13:39.000 that it's only through my God,

03:13:40.340 and I guess you should thank him

03:13:41.400 by your own logic,

03:13:42.880 but you've never created

03:13:44.120 a single standard yet

03:13:45.900 for how your morality

03:13:47.080 is anything other than

03:13:48.160 preference.

03:13:48.680 In your internal critique

03:13:49.620 just now,

03:13:50.600 all it did was ratify

03:13:52.260 what I said at the beginning

03:13:53.180 of the debate,

03:13:54.140 which is that

03:13:54.820 I don't think rights

03:13:55.940 can be grounded

03:13:56.540 through anything but God.

03:13:58.800 And guess what you established?

03:14:00.420 Well,

03:14:00.640 guess what,

03:14:01.160 Andrew?

03:14:01.800 Rights can't be established

03:14:02.920 by anything but your God.

03:14:04.340 You're right.

03:14:05.220 They can't.

03:14:06.080 I agree.

03:14:07.000 And on top of that,

03:14:07.900 let me just point this out.

03:14:09.100 The entire first part

03:14:10.220 of the debate

03:14:10.860 on the preferential end,

03:14:12.200 all you did was describe

03:14:13.500 how morality is preferential

03:14:14.840 over and over

03:14:16.180 and over again.

03:14:17.300 No, I didn't.

03:14:17.680 So if it's the case,

03:14:18.720 only through Christian ethics

03:14:21.520 can this be grounded,

03:14:23.060 right?

03:14:23.460 And in your worldview,

03:14:24.600 now through your worldview,

03:14:27.240 can you explain

03:14:28.280 how forced doctrine

03:14:29.180 is wrong outside

03:14:30.280 of preference or not?

03:14:32.000 No, Andrew.

03:14:32.820 By the way,

03:14:33.500 what I was just doing

03:14:34.280 is proving through

03:14:35.100 your own ethical framework

03:14:36.500 why you don't deserve shit.

03:14:38.340 You don't deserve

03:14:38.980 a thank you for women

03:14:39.940 from following the teachings

03:14:41.140 of your own ethical framework

03:14:42.700 brought to you

03:14:43.320 by your God.

03:14:44.000 Whether or not I agree

03:14:45.780 with you,

03:14:46.100 whether or not I agree

03:14:48.320 with the framework,

03:14:49.960 you have created

03:14:50.960 an ethical framework

03:14:51.920 that puts the moral onus

03:14:54.360 on your God.

03:14:55.720 So you acting morally

03:14:57.160 is not some gift to me

03:14:58.960 and to womankind,

03:15:00.560 but it is what you were told

03:15:02.080 to do by your God.

03:15:04.480 So why would I thank men?

03:15:06.760 Why should women thank men?

03:15:09.200 That's what you wanted.

03:15:10.260 You wanted a thank you

03:15:11.560 from women

03:15:12.200 for not killing us,

03:15:13.920 for doing the absolute

03:15:14.840 bare minimum,

03:15:16.160 which your own ethical framework

03:15:17.860 acknowledged

03:15:18.520 is the absolute

03:15:19.860 bare fucking minimum.

03:15:21.640 But that's my,

03:15:22.180 you're just making my point.

03:15:23.300 And by the way,

03:15:23.720 let me just point this out.

03:15:24.760 So you want me to thank God

03:15:26.240 for making men

03:15:27.160 do the bare minimum?

03:15:27.560 Let's just point this out.

03:15:28.480 Let them answer.

03:15:29.220 Are all men Christians?

03:15:30.660 No.

03:15:31.040 Then should we thank them?

03:15:32.880 Well, yes.

03:15:33.440 They're following their own

03:15:34.360 secular ethical framework

03:15:35.500 that is teaching them

03:15:36.260 not to just maim other women.

03:15:37.960 So you should thank men?

03:15:39.260 So you should thank men?

03:15:40.820 Well, I mean, not you.

03:15:42.240 But you should thank,

03:15:43.040 I didn't say me,

03:15:43.960 I said men.

03:15:45.140 So you should thank men.

03:15:46.200 I guess I should thank natural law.

03:15:47.720 Thank you, natural law.

03:15:48.720 I agree.

03:15:49.400 How does that, what?

03:15:50.720 Because it's objectively immoral.

03:15:52.400 What are you talking about?

03:15:53.380 Because it's objectively immoral

03:15:54.540 to kill people, Andrew.

03:15:55.400 No, it's objectively immoral.

03:15:56.560 I just can't demonstrate it.

03:15:57.940 Do you not think

03:15:58.700 that killing is objectively immoral?

03:15:59.840 Only from my view,

03:16:00.840 but not from yours.

03:16:01.660 No, from everyone's view.

03:16:03.160 No, not from, no.

03:16:04.100 From literally everyone's view.

03:16:04.620 It's not literally

03:16:05.320 from everyone's view.

03:16:06.360 Kind of, yeah.

03:16:07.100 Kind of, no.

03:16:07.880 Kind of, yeah.

03:16:08.860 Okay, fine.

03:16:10.080 From a Muslim's view,

03:16:11.100 from a Muslim's view,

03:16:12.020 is it objectively immoral

03:16:13.060 to take away rights from women?

03:16:15.880 I mean, I'm not Muslim.

03:16:17.720 Oh my God.

03:16:18.460 From a Muslim's view,

03:16:20.340 is it objectively immoral

03:16:21.480 to take away rights from women?

03:16:22.600 But I haven't studied the Quran,

03:16:23.960 so why should I be the one

03:16:25.140 answering on behalf of Muslims?

03:16:28.080 Is there anybody in the,

03:16:29.340 does North Korea

03:16:30.060 take away rights from women?

03:16:31.360 North Korea takes away

03:16:32.060 rights from everybody.

03:16:32.980 Didn't you say you wanted

03:16:33.680 a movement?

03:16:33.900 And women?

03:16:35.220 Well, everyone.

03:16:36.360 It's an equal opportunity

03:16:37.520 oppressor.

03:16:39.000 Sure, yes.

03:16:39.700 And women.

03:16:40.120 Okay, great.

03:16:40.860 Yeah.

03:16:41.200 So the case is,

03:16:42.240 is like if South Korean men

03:16:44.000 go in there

03:16:44.740 and put a stop to that shit,

03:16:46.340 should the South Korean women

03:16:47.340 at least think them?

03:16:48.800 The South,

03:16:49.440 why would the South Korean women

03:16:50.820 think them?

03:16:51.100 The North Korean women.

03:16:51.980 Should they at least think them?

03:16:52.920 Should the North Korean people?

03:16:53.980 I mean, North Korea is not a state of-

03:16:55.360 Are human beings,

03:16:56.440 are the women,

03:16:57.080 they're not people?

03:16:57.760 Shouldn't they think them?

03:16:58.700 But North Korea is not a state

03:16:59.560 that is oppressing

03:17:00.380 based on gender.

03:17:01.280 So should they think them or not?

03:17:03.820 If South Korea decided to come in

03:17:06.200 to North Korea,

03:17:07.240 wage war to liberate

03:17:08.600 the North Korean people

03:17:09.620 and they wanted this,

03:17:11.140 then yeah,

03:17:11.540 the entirety of North Korea

03:17:12.880 should probably thank South Korea

03:17:14.140 for being liberated.

03:17:15.060 Okay, got it.

03:17:16.020 Yeah.

03:17:16.160 So the only qualm

03:17:17.780 that you have here

03:17:18.580 is that you shouldn't think Christians

03:17:20.020 because we follow our ethics,

03:17:21.800 but you should think secularists

03:17:24.220 because they have no ethics

03:17:25.540 and just don't do it anyway.

03:17:26.880 But the difference

03:17:27.460 is the doing versus not doing.

03:17:29.260 Like, Andrew,

03:17:29.820 in North Korea,

03:17:30.580 the South Koreans

03:17:31.180 would have to actually go to war,

03:17:33.280 fight,

03:17:33.760 and potentially die

03:17:34.840 for the freedom of another person.

03:17:36.860 But here,

03:17:37.520 all you have to do

03:17:38.660 is just not murder women.

03:17:41.200 Like, how hard is that

03:17:42.520 to just not murder women?

03:17:43.440 Yeah, but that's not an argument.

03:17:44.900 Yes, it is.

03:17:45.500 Why should I thank you

03:17:46.240 for doing nothing?

03:17:47.280 Thank men.

03:17:48.180 Why should I thank men

03:17:49.000 for doing nothing?

03:17:49.040 Because at any time they want,

03:17:50.120 they can collectively enslave all women

03:17:51.680 and they don't.

03:17:52.800 But at any time we want,

03:17:53.980 we can collectively do

03:17:54.800 all kinds of horrible things.

03:17:56.020 Like, why do you think

03:17:56.700 you should deserve a treat

03:17:57.820 for doing the bare fucking minimum?

03:17:59.100 Well, here's the thing.

03:18:00.280 I mean, anyone could abuse their child.

03:18:02.000 Do you think that children

03:18:02.640 every day should wake up

03:18:03.740 and thank their parents?

03:18:04.560 Thank you for not abusing

03:18:05.600 and killing me, parent.

03:18:06.680 Yeah, I think that they should

03:18:07.400 be grateful to their parents, yeah.

03:18:08.880 I mean, everyone should be grateful

03:18:10.080 to a good parent,

03:18:11.040 but you really think

03:18:11.940 that we, like,

03:18:12.800 as a society,

03:18:13.660 have an advantage

03:18:14.240 past the point where you need to.

03:18:15.940 Hold on, let each other finish.

03:18:16.640 You're like a contradiction machine.

03:18:18.260 I mean, you should thank your parents

03:18:19.440 if they're nice parents.

03:18:20.760 Yeah, you should thank your parents, yeah.

03:18:22.000 Hold on, let each other finish, please.

03:18:23.380 Andrew, you should thank your parents

03:18:24.220 because they're nice parents,

03:18:25.580 but not because every day

03:18:26.760 they choose not to abuse you.

03:18:28.580 Again, these are the bare minimums.

03:18:30.920 You know, it's funny.

03:18:31.500 Like, it's the not,

03:18:32.440 like, it's just not doing something.

03:18:33.580 It's funny to me

03:18:34.300 because, like,

03:18:35.580 there's such a lack of cogency here.

03:18:37.340 You say that you should

03:18:38.420 thank secular men, right?

03:18:40.800 And you should thank them

03:18:41.840 because they're following natural law.

03:18:43.780 I don't think you should

03:18:44.720 thank secular men.

03:18:45.580 You literally just got done saying

03:18:47.700 you think we should

03:18:48.840 thank secular men.

03:18:49.580 I said we should thank natural law.

03:18:50.460 Let each other finish.

03:18:51.500 Let each other finish.

03:18:52.140 Which is your form of morality?

03:18:54.640 Yeah, to any extent.

03:18:55.320 Then why should we thank

03:18:56.320 your form of morality

03:18:57.160 for doing the bare minimum?

03:18:58.480 You're just following

03:18:59.100 your own morals.

03:19:01.140 What?

03:19:01.720 Yeah, why would you thank men

03:19:02.960 who are just following natural law?

03:19:04.860 I wouldn't thank them.

03:19:05.880 You just said I wouldn't.

03:19:06.920 Hang on, you wouldn't?

03:19:07.820 Let Andrew finish.

03:19:08.600 No, I wouldn't thank men.

03:19:09.080 Then why did you say

03:19:09.860 before you would?

03:19:11.260 I would not thank men.

03:19:12.880 I literally thanked natural law

03:19:14.560 like 30 seconds ago, Andrew.

03:19:16.000 You're just not paying attention to me.

03:19:16.760 So then shouldn't you

03:19:17.500 thank my God then?

03:19:20.220 For creating a moral system

03:19:22.320 in which you decided

03:19:24.160 not to murder people.

03:19:26.740 If we should thank natural law,

03:19:28.220 shouldn't you thank my God?

03:19:29.360 Well, I should,

03:19:29.880 but I'm just not going to.

03:19:30.720 Oh, okay.

03:19:31.300 So you're just

03:19:31.860 a contradiction machine.

03:19:32.860 Got it.

03:19:32.980 No, I'm not a contradiction machine.

03:19:34.440 I just don't agree.

03:19:35.500 That was a huge concept.

03:19:37.240 Andrew, it's not a concession.

03:19:38.760 You believe that you deserve

03:19:40.260 a pat on the fucking back

03:19:41.500 for doing nothing.

03:19:42.940 And I'm saying

03:19:44.020 I don't believe you do.

03:19:45.260 If anyone does,

03:19:46.260 it's God or natural law

03:19:47.500 or the concept of morality.

03:19:49.020 I know, I know.

03:19:49.760 Whatever it is

03:19:50.560 that prevents you

03:19:51.440 from doing horrible things

03:19:52.900 to other people.

03:19:53.600 But you don't deserve a cookie

03:19:55.600 for sitting on your couch.

03:19:57.100 I understand.

03:19:57.740 Like, why do you think that?

03:19:58.940 Every day we could all go out

03:20:00.540 and choose to commit

03:20:01.460 an act of violence

03:20:02.120 and we don't.

03:20:03.240 You're not special for that.

03:20:04.660 Yeah, I know.

03:20:05.520 You're not.

03:20:05.820 I got it.

03:20:06.040 I get it.

03:20:06.620 Okay, then why do you think

03:20:07.740 you deserve a thank you?

03:20:08.440 Can I close now?

03:20:09.440 Sure.

03:20:09.900 Okay, great.

03:20:10.540 So now that you're all done prattling.

03:20:12.360 So you just made the concession.

03:20:14.160 You literally just made

03:20:15.160 multiple concessions there

03:20:16.640 that you don't even know

03:20:17.240 that you made.

03:20:17.820 The first one that you made is,

03:20:19.380 well, I'm not going to thank your God

03:20:20.640 even though he's responsible for this,

03:20:21.960 but you should thank natural law,

03:20:23.060 the moral system that I utilize,

03:20:24.640 which is incoherent,

03:20:25.720 I've never explained,

03:20:27.060 for why it is that secular men aren't.

03:20:29.680 And it's like,

03:20:30.660 that's the most hilarious contradiction

03:20:32.940 I've heard this entire debate.

03:20:34.460 And on top of that,

03:20:35.300 it's like, look, yeah,

03:20:36.980 do I think that women

03:20:38.060 should probably be

03:20:38.960 just a little bit grateful

03:20:40.200 that it's considering

03:20:41.520 that women are enslaved

03:20:42.520 on half of planet Earth

03:20:43.800 or at least have way less rights

03:20:45.620 to the point where you would

03:20:46.440 consider them enslaved

03:20:47.400 to at least acknowledge

03:20:49.120 that men could do this

03:20:50.640 and are benevolent and don't

03:20:52.060 and should be thankful for it?

03:20:53.480 Yeah.

03:20:53.880 But you know what?

03:20:54.480 You don't have to.

03:20:55.180 What you can do instead

03:20:55.940 is you can be like,

03:20:56.840 you know what?

03:20:57.400 I'm a big, strong woman

03:20:58.700 and all women are super strong

03:21:00.280 and we're awesome.

03:21:01.400 And so here's the thing.

03:21:02.540 Fuck men.

03:21:03.440 Who cares?

03:21:03.740 They don't get a cookie.

03:21:04.820 That's the least that they should do.

03:21:06.000 But none of that refutes force doctrine

03:21:08.120 and none of that shows

03:21:09.340 how it is that men couldn't do this

03:21:11.780 and why it is

03:21:12.520 that you shouldn't actually

03:21:13.380 be kind of thankful

03:21:14.240 that they don't

03:21:14.880 or at least perceive them

03:21:16.140 as being benevolent.

03:21:17.200 So what about you, Andrew?

03:21:18.220 Do you think you should...

03:21:18.960 What about me?

03:21:19.860 Do you think that you...

03:21:20.600 Did you finish your clothes,

03:21:21.620 by the way?

03:21:21.960 No, she always interrupts

03:21:23.260 every time I'm talking.

03:21:24.940 Is this the clothes

03:21:26.080 just on this prompt

03:21:26.900 or your total clothes?

03:21:28.120 Yes, my total clothes.

03:21:29.060 Total clothes.

03:21:29.600 Okay.

03:21:29.840 So not only that,

03:21:31.260 your massive contradictions

03:21:33.140 on morality

03:21:35.520 were so absurd,

03:21:37.560 I don't even think

03:21:38.320 you realize how bad it was.

03:21:40.340 You have a circular argument

03:21:42.700 that we went over

03:21:43.960 multiple times

03:21:45.020 and you just never got

03:21:46.320 that no matter

03:21:47.960 what you were reduced to,

03:21:49.400 you just came back

03:21:50.660 back to your own preference.

03:21:52.120 It was completely circular

03:21:53.760 just over and over

03:21:54.800 and over again.

03:21:55.540 I even demonstrated this

03:21:57.240 by presenting

03:21:58.160 as an anti-moralist Christian,

03:22:00.900 an anti-moral realist Christian

03:22:03.260 in order to say,

03:22:04.680 well, mine's just preference

03:22:05.600 and you spent

03:22:07.000 almost 50 minutes

03:22:08.440 arguing against

03:22:09.760 your own moral system

03:22:11.240 because you didn't even understand

03:22:13.580 what was being said.

03:22:15.180 And so it's laughable to me

03:22:16.700 that as we,

03:22:17.400 the debate continued

03:22:18.460 and we got into

03:22:19.480 other moral predictors

03:22:20.920 and we got into things

03:22:21.800 about feminism,

03:22:23.080 you contradicted thing

03:22:24.360 after thing

03:22:25.040 after thing

03:22:25.720 after thing

03:22:26.380 after thing.

03:22:27.500 You just contradicted yourself

03:22:28.680 on natural law.

03:22:29.920 You contradicted yourself

03:22:30.860 on natural law again

03:22:32.080 when you said

03:22:32.840 you shouldn't appeal

03:22:33.520 to my God

03:22:34.160 and be grateful

03:22:34.740 but we should appeal

03:22:35.640 to your moral system

03:22:36.500 and be grateful.

03:22:37.400 You contradicted yourself

03:22:38.420 on your definition of slavery

03:22:39.540 when you said

03:22:40.180 indentured servitude

03:22:41.160 and then said it wasn't.

03:22:43.460 You contradicted yourself

03:22:44.600 literally,

03:22:45.280 I don't know,

03:22:45.580 20 minutes ago

03:22:46.540 when you gave a definition

03:22:47.880 for natural law

03:22:48.820 and said

03:22:49.540 it's a collective belief

03:22:51.280 and then literally

03:22:52.340 one minute later

03:22:53.260 said no,

03:22:53.800 it's not collective belief.

03:22:55.080 You're a contradiction machine.

03:22:56.540 You have no coherent,

03:22:58.520 no coherency at all

03:23:00.760 in your worldview

03:23:01.560 and it was completely crushed.

03:23:04.280 Mine stood up to scrutiny.

03:23:05.500 Fine.

03:23:06.160 You didn't even understand

03:23:06.840 what I was saying

03:23:07.620 half the time.

03:23:09.040 It's like,

03:23:09.460 it's very frustrating

03:23:10.440 but this was like,

03:23:11.720 look,

03:23:12.260 your first showing,

03:23:13.200 I think you got away with it

03:23:14.280 because of the jar thing

03:23:15.920 but like this was terrible.

03:23:17.380 You just got absolutely

03:23:18.260 decimated

03:23:19.660 in this fucking debate.

03:23:21.000 It was bad.

03:23:21.720 Yeah,

03:23:21.840 you said that last time.

03:23:22.680 You did it.

03:23:23.340 Well,

03:23:23.520 you did then too.

03:23:24.380 There was an obfuscation

03:23:25.260 you had then

03:23:25.820 that's not there this time.

03:23:28.560 Are you done

03:23:29.880 with your clothes?

03:23:30.800 Yeah,

03:23:30.960 I'm done.

03:23:31.540 Okay.

03:23:32.440 Okay.

03:23:34.660 Hold on.

03:23:35.440 Give me one second.

03:23:37.660 While she's collecting

03:23:39.080 her thoughts,

03:23:39.720 guys,

03:23:40.140 we'll do a Q&A session

03:23:42.300 right after

03:23:42.800 then we're going to

03:23:43.520 wrap the debate

03:23:44.220 so go ahead.

03:23:45.260 Okay.

03:23:46.680 This debate

03:23:47.320 I think was very interesting.

03:23:49.040 Now first,

03:23:49.440 I just want to respond

03:23:50.260 to your final claims

03:23:51.360 on our last prompt

03:23:52.180 and then get into

03:23:53.500 my actual closing statement.

03:23:57.720 So,

03:23:58.860 you said,

03:24:00.420 well,

03:24:01.000 you finished your claim

03:24:02.360 on the final prompt

03:24:03.640 and then get into,

03:24:04.940 Andrew,

03:24:05.340 you can include it

03:24:06.220 in your close.

03:24:07.940 Thank you.

03:24:08.220 That's what I'm saying.

03:24:09.260 All right.

03:24:09.760 So,

03:24:10.900 first of all,

03:24:11.340 Andrew,

03:24:11.600 I don't really think

03:24:12.240 anyone should thank

03:24:13.380 anything for just choosing

03:24:15.360 not to commit

03:24:17.520 an act of harm.

03:24:19.760 And if we should,

03:24:20.880 then I think that you should

03:24:21.700 thank every man

03:24:22.880 that's stronger than you

03:24:23.860 for not choosing

03:24:24.700 to, you know,

03:24:25.240 bend you over

03:24:25.840 and rape you

03:24:26.480 because that's something

03:24:27.060 you would have to be

03:24:27.740 subjected to too

03:24:28.740 under your own

03:24:29.800 force doctrine.

03:24:30.500 As a man who physically

03:24:31.700 could not open

03:24:32.320 a jar of olives,

03:24:33.300 you're also putting

03:24:34.260 yourself at risk

03:24:35.680 of being

03:24:36.440 overpowered

03:24:38.560 by other men

03:24:39.600 and then therefore

03:24:40.440 losing rights

03:24:41.160 that I guess

03:24:41.640 you don't believe exist.

03:24:43.560 Now,

03:24:44.100 I guess my issue

03:24:45.780 with Andrew's debate style

03:24:46.940 is that he only uses

03:24:48.500 descriptive arguments.

03:24:49.740 He wants to argue

03:24:50.440 over semantics.

03:24:51.500 I think collectively

03:24:52.360 we took about

03:24:53.120 three hours today

03:24:54.600 arguing,

03:24:55.840 well,

03:24:56.180 the debate was three hours,

03:24:56.940 so I'll say two and a half

03:24:58.160 arguing solely

03:24:59.800 over semantics.

03:25:01.840 And I think

03:25:03.000 the real reason

03:25:03.920 why you do this

03:25:04.840 is because you refuse

03:25:06.140 to defend

03:25:07.160 your positions.

03:25:09.240 You don't want

03:25:10.200 to have to stand up

03:25:11.100 to any scrutiny

03:25:12.340 because you refuse

03:25:13.880 to present your arguments.

03:25:15.720 And the few times

03:25:16.560 you did,

03:25:17.280 you ended up

03:25:17.980 justifying slavery

03:25:19.340 and genocide,

03:25:21.060 which to me

03:25:22.580 is kind of

03:25:24.060 one of the most

03:25:24.520 disgusting things

03:25:25.060 I've heard

03:25:25.720 in a debate.

03:25:27.420 I think that generally

03:25:28.520 you are confused

03:25:30.120 on maybe the reason

03:25:31.260 you want to debate

03:25:32.020 definitions so frequently

03:25:33.080 is because you're

03:25:33.760 confused on them.

03:25:35.200 You don't really

03:25:35.820 understand what slavery is.

03:25:37.160 You don't really

03:25:37.740 understand what feminism is.

03:25:39.260 You don't really

03:25:39.960 understand what rights are.

03:25:41.540 You don't really

03:25:42.280 understand,

03:25:43.140 we didn't get to democracy,

03:25:44.520 but what democracy is.

03:25:46.280 And instead,

03:25:47.320 you simply want

03:25:48.480 to ask over and over

03:25:50.060 the same four questions

03:25:51.260 to try and create

03:25:52.160 a gotcha moment

03:25:52.940 that won't exist.

03:25:54.900 And, you know,

03:25:55.940 I guess this was

03:25:56.620 an interesting

03:25:57.060 social experiment

03:25:58.020 in how much

03:25:59.020 two people

03:25:59.420 can annoy each other.

03:26:01.040 And the answer is

03:26:02.080 a lot,

03:26:02.700 but I had a good time.

03:26:04.340 Okay, I'm done.

03:26:05.220 Does that conclude

03:26:05.800 your closing statement?

03:26:07.620 Yes.

03:26:08.240 Okay, we have

03:26:08.960 two chats.

03:26:10.640 If any of you

03:26:11.400 want to get them in.

03:26:12.820 Oh, it's going to be,

03:26:13.920 it's going to be,

03:26:14.400 what's the same?

03:26:16.020 $199 Q&A.

03:26:17.520 Final call on this,

03:26:18.620 if you want.

03:26:19.260 We have a few minutes

03:26:19.960 here at the end.

03:26:21.240 Final call if you

03:26:21.900 want to get some in.

03:26:22.560 Norris donated $200.

03:26:24.880 Thank you, man.

03:26:25.320 Rights are entitlements,

03:26:26.940 absent duty.

03:26:28.360 Privileges are

03:26:29.140 entitlements under condition.

03:26:31.340 Aren't U.S. citizens

03:26:32.320 without rights

03:26:33.120 since they can be

03:26:34.020 taken by judicial system?

03:26:36.020 Let's make

03:26:36.560 Bill of Privileges

03:26:37.700 doubly breed drew.

03:26:40.920 Big J. Norris,

03:26:41.980 thank you for

03:26:43.280 that statement.

03:26:45.280 We have

03:26:45.700 Pastey George here.

03:26:46.660 A message from

03:26:46.980 the government of Canada.

03:26:48.100 Oh, my God.

03:26:48.520 Pastey George

03:26:49.340 donated $200.04.

03:26:52.360 To Brown Locks,

03:26:54.040 please elaborate

03:26:54.780 on why men

03:26:55.600 should be thankful

03:26:56.400 to women.

03:26:57.580 Why should we be

03:26:58.360 grateful to just

03:26:59.300 our mothers

03:26:59.920 for giving birth

03:27:00.880 to us?

03:27:01.880 Oh, um,

03:27:03.020 Pastey,

03:27:03.760 I'm not saying

03:27:04.680 that men

03:27:05.300 should be grateful

03:27:06.360 to women.

03:27:07.040 I'm saying that

03:27:07.680 under Andrew's belief

03:27:09.200 that women should

03:27:10.440 thank all men

03:27:11.440 for choosing

03:27:12.000 not to harm them,

03:27:13.420 then weak men

03:27:14.340 should thank

03:27:14.980 stronger men

03:27:15.860 for choosing

03:27:16.480 not to harm them

03:27:17.360 as well.

03:27:18.260 Because there are

03:27:19.300 men who are also

03:27:20.340 in a position

03:27:21.200 of vulnerability

03:27:21.900 against physical harm,

03:27:23.780 and if a man

03:27:25.040 chooses to not

03:27:26.540 do the absolute

03:27:27.600 bare minimum

03:27:28.480 and commit

03:27:29.100 an act of harm

03:27:29.900 against another man,

03:27:31.960 I mean,

03:27:32.380 I don't believe

03:27:33.020 that they should

03:27:33.840 have to be thanked,

03:27:34.760 but Andrew does.

03:27:35.840 So, anyway.

03:27:39.240 All right,

03:27:39.980 we have, uh,

03:27:41.540 hold on.

03:27:43.000 I'll just read

03:27:43.500 this from Pelagic.

03:27:44.280 Typical of a narcissist

03:27:45.120 to double down

03:27:45.760 on the gaslighting

03:27:46.520 and ad-hom attacks

03:27:47.900 when they are

03:27:48.320 getting smoked.

03:27:48.980 She has said nothing

03:27:50.240 and made no point.

03:27:51.280 Just another

03:27:51.900 manipulative woman.

03:27:53.040 I didn't add

03:27:53.620 hominem Andrew

03:27:54.280 a single time,

03:27:55.100 but okay.

03:27:55.520 All right.

03:27:59.320 Uh,

03:27:59.900 it looks,

03:28:00.920 oh, we have,

03:28:01.840 hold on.

03:28:03.080 I believe that's it.

03:28:04.680 If any others

03:28:05.580 trickle in,

03:28:06.380 I'll be sure

03:28:07.540 to, uh,

03:28:09.640 get it.

03:28:11.080 But, uh,

03:28:12.300 hold on.

03:28:14.460 Let's see.

03:28:15.700 No?

03:28:16.400 Uh, I'll give

03:28:17.000 one or two more minutes

03:28:18.020 to allow for

03:28:19.140 a few more Q&As.

03:28:20.260 Otherwise, uh,

03:28:21.100 we'll get this

03:28:22.200 wrapped up.

03:28:23.240 Um, Andrew,

03:28:24.340 would you like to,

03:28:25.140 uh, plug anything

03:28:26.540 here at the end?

03:28:27.780 And then,

03:28:28.160 Naeem,

03:28:28.800 I'll give you a chance

03:28:29.560 to if you want to.

03:28:30.920 Yeah,

03:28:31.200 I've got to bake on

03:28:31.940 coming up.

03:28:32.440 I hope to see

03:28:32.820 everybody there.

03:28:33.420 It's the 15th and 16th.

03:28:34.860 It's going to be

03:28:35.260 a huge event.

03:28:36.200 We've been,

03:28:36.660 uh,

03:28:36.960 kind of traveling

03:28:37.620 all over the U.S.

03:28:39.640 to, uh,

03:28:40.380 to promote it.

03:28:41.120 So I hope,

03:28:41.780 um,

03:28:42.220 I hope we can sell it out.

03:28:43.540 I know that we're

03:28:44.180 pretty close to doing so.

03:28:45.340 So get your tickets

03:28:46.160 while you still can.

03:28:48.080 Uh,

03:28:48.520 anything for you

03:28:50.100 you'd like to plug

03:28:52.220 or?

03:28:53.180 Nah,

03:28:53.560 I'm okay.

03:28:54.900 Okay.

03:28:55.480 Uh,

03:28:55.840 all right,

03:28:56.100 guys.

03:28:56.320 Well,

03:28:56.460 if you want to

03:28:56.860 support the show,

03:28:57.400 Venmo,

03:28:57.700 Cash App,

03:28:58.080 whatever pod.

03:28:58.760 Guys,

03:28:59.240 final thing,

03:28:59.840 Nick,

03:28:59.940 if you could pull up

03:29:00.460 our Twitch.

03:29:01.000 Guys,

03:29:01.660 uh,

03:29:01.880 if you're watching

03:29:02.280 on YouTube,

03:29:02.860 you're watching

03:29:03.340 on,

03:29:03.920 uh,

03:29:04.540 Twitch,

03:29:05.300 drop us a follow,

03:29:06.240 drop us a Prime sub.

03:29:07.060 If you have Amazon Prime,

03:29:08.160 you can link into your

03:29:09.220 Twitch quick for easy

03:29:10.140 way to support the show

03:29:11.020 every single month.

03:29:12.020 Guys,

03:29:12.160 it's been one hour

03:29:12.820 since we last got a Prime.

03:29:13.820 I think it's bugged,

03:29:14.920 boys.

03:29:15.560 I think it's bugged.

03:29:16.240 Can somebody test out

03:29:16.940 the Prime sub.

03:29:17.780 Also,

03:29:18.160 guys,

03:29:18.380 you can get some merch,

03:29:19.280 shop.whatever.com.

03:29:20.280 Nick,

03:29:20.420 if you can pull that up

03:29:21.100 super quick.

03:29:22.560 Uh,

03:29:22.720 guys,

03:29:22.920 I'll see if we have one

03:29:25.280 in the studio.

03:29:26.300 Um,

03:29:26.980 guys,

03:29:27.320 get some merch,

03:29:27.840 shop.whatever.com.

03:29:28.900 Also join our Discord,

03:29:29.900 discord.gg slash whatever.

03:29:31.440 If you enjoyed the stream,

03:29:32.340 you want to see more debates.

03:29:33.580 Like the video,

03:29:34.500 guys,

03:29:34.820 like the video,

03:29:35.940 uh,

03:29:37.180 like the video on your way out.

03:29:38.340 Also,

03:29:38.700 final thing for this,

03:29:39.860 guys,

03:29:40.160 if you want to learn how to

03:29:41.420 become a master debater,

03:29:42.580 debateuniversity.com.

03:29:44.680 You want to become a master

03:29:45.540 debater like Andrew,

03:29:46.580 or like Naima,

03:29:47.960 debateuniversity.com.

03:29:49.780 You can check it out there.

03:29:50.760 Final call on the Q&A.

03:29:52.220 You guys have one minute

03:29:53.040 to get a final Q&A statement

03:29:55.320 in.

03:29:55.700 $200 Q&A via streamlabs.com

03:29:57.620 slash whatever.

03:29:58.520 Thank you guys for all

03:29:59.540 the memberships.

03:30:00.520 Really quick,

03:30:00.980 just shout outs for people

03:30:01.880 who sent in something

03:30:02.680 via Venmo or Cash App.

03:30:04.420 We have,

03:30:05.100 uh,

03:30:05.540 let's see,

03:30:06.200 we have Douglas.

03:30:08.000 Thank you for the $5

03:30:08.920 and call in.

03:30:09.640 Thank you for the $10

03:30:10.220 via Cash App.

03:30:11.500 Thank you guys.

03:30:11.900 Really appreciate it.

03:30:12.940 Guys,

03:30:13.540 like the video kindly

03:30:14.820 on the way out.

03:30:15.760 Like the video on the way

03:30:16.540 out.

03:30:17.120 Thank you for tuning in guys.

03:30:18.360 Also,

03:30:19.240 Andrew did a debate

03:30:20.660 on Saturday,

03:30:22.460 which was phenomenal.

03:30:24.140 Uh,

03:30:24.360 you can check that out.

03:30:25.260 That was also live.

03:30:26.080 Also,

03:30:26.300 we did the dating talk

03:30:27.200 yesterday.

03:30:27.800 Andrew was also on the

03:30:28.560 panel for that.

03:30:29.100 Be sure to watch those

03:30:30.400 if you haven't already.

03:30:32.100 Believe,

03:30:32.820 Pasty George

03:30:33.640 is going to have

03:30:34.420 the final message here.

03:30:35.680 Of course he is.

03:30:36.620 A message from the

03:30:37.420 government of Canada.

03:30:39.040 Pasty George

03:30:39.840 donated $200

03:30:41.240 and four cents.

03:30:43.160 It is good that

03:30:43.920 Brian brings on

03:30:45.080 these feminist women

03:30:46.240 on here because

03:30:46.980 it helps us identify

03:30:48.280 feminists on how

03:30:49.440 they operate,

03:30:50.420 including their

03:30:51.180 brainwashed prattle.

03:30:52.920 Hmm.

03:30:55.180 Hmm.

03:30:56.020 Do you have a response

03:30:57.020 to George on that?

03:30:58.020 Oh,

03:30:58.600 do I need to?

03:31:00.120 Yes.

03:31:01.100 Oh.

03:31:01.300 You have to.

03:31:02.480 Okay.

03:31:03.340 Well,

03:31:03.880 uh,

03:31:04.220 you're welcome,

03:31:05.100 I guess.

03:31:06.500 You're welcome,

03:31:07.000 Pasty George.

03:31:07.740 Yes.

03:31:08.060 All right.

03:31:08.780 Uh,

03:31:09.260 I want to thank both of you

03:31:10.720 for joining me for this

03:31:12.040 debate.

03:31:12.500 Thank you both for your,

03:31:13.480 for your time.

03:31:14.600 Appreciate it.

03:31:15.640 All right,

03:31:15.900 guys.

03:31:16.300 Uh,

03:31:16.580 07's in the chat.

03:31:18.040 I hope you guys

03:31:19.440 enjoyed the stream.

03:31:20.940 Uh,

03:31:21.340 Mads,

03:31:21.680 thank you for the,

03:31:22.080 thank you for the gifted

03:31:22.860 10.

03:31:23.520 Like the video on the way out

03:31:24.740 and then as soon as the

03:31:25.660 stream ends,

03:31:26.160 if you guys can leave,

03:31:27.400 leave a nice little comment,

03:31:28.600 you know,

03:31:28.800 leave a comment on the

03:31:30.280 YouTube video.

03:31:31.100 It helps with the

03:31:31.660 algorithm.

03:31:32.620 Uh,

03:31:33.300 guys,

03:31:33.780 we are going to be live

03:31:35.160 next Sunday.

03:31:36.160 We have a great dating

03:31:37.000 talk scheduled Sunday,

03:31:38.140 5.

03:31:38.340 PM Pacific.

03:31:39.180 That's the next time we're

03:31:40.080 live.

03:31:40.520 Thank you guys for watching.

03:31:42.200 Thank you for tuning in.

03:31:43.020 Thank you both again for

03:31:44.480 doing the debate.

03:31:45.240 Oh,

03:31:45.400 seven's in the chat.

03:31:46.360 Good night guys.

03:31:47.200 And we will see you next

03:31:48.900 time.

03:31:49.220 Good night.

Whatever Podcast - November 14, 2025

Andrew Wilson vs. Naima HEATED Debate Round 2 ｜ Whatever Debates #23

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