Whatever Podcast

00:00:00.000 welcome to a debate edition of the whatever podcast we're coming to you live from santa

00:00:16.480 barbara california i'm your host and moderator brian atlas a few quick announcements before

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00:01:10.280 slash whatever without further ado i'm going to introduce the two debaters i'm joined today by

00:01:18.120 andrew wilson host of the crucible he's a blood sports debater and political commentator also

00:01:24.920 joining us today is oliver niehaus he's about to graduate from from oberlin college he is triple

00:01:31.520 majoring in political science philosophy and legal studies he plans to attend law school after

00:01:37.940 graduation he's a political commentator and content creator the topic today is feminism you will each

00:01:45.040 have a five minute opening statement then the rest of the show will just be open conversation

00:01:49.680 with prompt uh excuse me no prompt changes but there there will be breaks for messages from the

00:01:56.060 audience uh andrew you're going to open first so go ahead well first uh thank you again to the

00:02:02.520 whatever podcast audience for having me i always appreciate that um and of course it's through you

00:02:08.700 guys's donation the show is possible and to the crucible crew i know you guys are watching i'm wearing

00:02:13.800 black today because it's going to be a funeral and with that i'm going to get into my opening statement

00:02:19.300 my opponent today told jim bob there's nothing wrong with having sex with a cadaver usually that

00:02:28.100 would be enough for me to just kind of laugh and walk away because no one will ever take you seriously

00:02:31.380 again but in this case i feel the rest of his pro-feminist stances need to be eliminated my opponent

00:02:38.760 also refuses to define what a woman is so i don't know how he can bother advocating for their

00:02:43.280 specific rights or issues if he can't even determine what one is interestingly my opponent

00:02:49.160 believes there are no specific duties for men at least according to his debate with jim bob so i

00:02:54.620 thought i would take a moment to i'm sorry hang on i'm doing this for my cell phone so give me a

00:03:00.540 give me a little grace uh interestingly my opponent believes there are no specific duties for men

00:03:07.500 at least according to his debate with jim bob so i thought i would take a moment to point out the

00:03:11.160 societal and social expectations and duties which men have uh now you may not believe they should

00:03:17.420 have them but they do have them under the current expectations which feminists have put in place

00:03:22.480 um first the draft second any say over abortion which the left demands they have no say in

00:03:30.920 uh the ability to deny association with women and the occupation for the purposes of safety the ability

00:03:36.460 to defend yourself physically against a woman the social demand of sacrifice for chivalry to

00:03:41.420 strangers who are women and children the expectation they can't tell women what a real woman is but a

00:03:46.160 woman can descriptively attack what a real man is or isn't men have a bias against them in domestic

00:03:51.480 violence issues men are expected to approach women for the purposes of dating and marriage but are often

00:03:59.400 called creepy and told they are making a woman uncomfortable by doing so men can't discuss issues they have

00:04:05.500 with women in a collective way or they're called misogynist and told they want to hurt women

00:04:10.220 expectation to provide financial support during a divorce without the expectation of child custody

00:04:15.640 expectation of having courage and dangerous jobs for the purpose of society where women are not

00:04:20.740 expectations that male-only spaces like the boy scouts and clergy and other groups be opened up to women

00:04:26.420 while women um especially feminists going into uh you know all female spaces are completely celebrated

00:04:34.420 the inability to bring charges of essay or battery against women for the same types of things women

00:04:40.180 can claim battery and assault and be believed and it's insisted that they're believed just to name

00:04:45.020 a few men are expected to be uh stoic while at the same time more emotionally available and empathetic

00:04:52.020 men are sent to schools governed by female teachers which have rules which are tailored to the behavior of

00:04:56.540 the feminine and girls and not the masculine of boys and are oftentimes drugged to keep their masculinity

00:05:01.520 under control to celebrate uh male increases in powerful jobs as bigotry and oppression but in

00:05:08.320 females it's celebrated as glass ceiling breaking um also feminist things that uh that that we'll see

00:05:14.820 often in society now which have taken uh heel from the left is men need to stop coming in women

00:05:20.300 not women need to stop opening their legs there's almost no mutual assurance here when it comes

00:05:25.860 to promiscuity in women most importantly men are always the solution to any problem even if they

00:05:32.960 are the problem or aren't the problem men need to fix the porn problem because they watch it even if

00:05:38.020 women are the ones making it men need to get other men in line men need to be more xyz men need to stop

00:05:43.580 the simping not women need to stop enabling simps by simp fishing women always appeal to men's behavior

00:05:48.820 as the problems which need to be fixed ducking all accountability thanks largely in part to the leftist males

00:05:54.960 who want to fuck them next let's examine some actual blatant stupidity which will be the first thing

00:06:01.760 i destroy my opponent on my opponent claims that women fear women's fear of men is justified and their

00:06:08.960 bias around a collective experience is what justifies it well the obvious contradiction here of course is

00:06:15.280 that i seriously doubt he would say bias against black people or fear would be justified based on white

00:06:19.860 people's collective experience watching him try to reconcile that is not only going to be amusing for

00:06:24.880 me uh but it's where i'm going to begin my line of inquiry when jim bob asked about the bear

00:06:29.460 question based around race he twisted himself into a pretzel to attempt to justify that the collective

00:06:34.140 experience of one group was valid but the other was not what's so amazingly hilarious about this

00:06:40.120 is it shows you just how weak the leftist position really is on this front they selectively show that

00:06:45.240 they back up the idea of group bias worse than the right does by acknowledging that group experiences

00:06:49.620 are justified unless those experiences don't fit in with their version of political action they are

00:06:56.740 unjustified then this is such a blatant contradiction it's staggering and also it shows the primary

00:07:04.620 weakness with intersectional feminist worldviews like my opponents what happens if we do intersectionality

00:07:10.300 only to find out minority classes oppress to show hatred towards the majority class thus justifying the

00:07:16.140 hatred of the majority towards the minority well in my opponent's worldview this is simply not a

00:07:21.900 possibility he's willing to entertain uh and this is because it destroys the entire narrative of the

00:07:27.780 oppressor press dynamic from which all of his views reduce to a silly harm reductionist principle

00:07:32.440 unless of course it comes to the collective power of women then one man can easily oppress 20 women

00:07:37.880 and the minority can oppress the majority but somehow this is impossible with racial groups or other dynamics

00:07:43.280 further let me just finish i'm almost done and i'll give my opponent a little extra time if needed for

00:07:49.220 his opening um i'm sorry real quick just finding my place he believes people have a duty to pay taxes

00:08:02.220 but can't tell us why there would be that social duty but not a social duty of reproduction which is by

00:08:08.140 far the most beneficial aspect of the health of the society especially its elderly he claims women

00:08:13.260 have no duty to have children which means he sees no duty to keep the human race alive which aligns

00:08:18.020 with his harm reduction his mindset as the ultimate harm reduction in which there would be no human

00:08:23.480 beings thus no harm could ever happen to any of them he believes democracy is the finest form of

00:08:27.920 government ignoring the glaring weakness that we can democratically vote for no democracy he has

00:08:32.980 typical left world stupid views the progressive mind is totally tainted by ignoring objective reality for

00:08:40.440 the ideas of untenable systems and senseless ideology on the core of feminism he's just as bad refusing to

00:08:47.360 denote that if he were actually a harm reductionist the best way to reduce harm would be to strongly

00:08:52.280 encourage traditional gender roles because men who are the most fit sex for the workforce and jobs

00:08:58.000 which aim to protect society would obviously do the most amount of good in those capacities and women

00:09:02.740 in the nurturing capacities leading to better general outcomes for society now the truth is that he wants

00:09:12.280 there to be a genderless equitable society which does equal promotion of all lifestyles and worldviews

00:09:18.460 even if it is detrimental to the very society in which we live in which by the way just isn't an

00:09:25.100 anti-harm reductionist principle even though he claims he's an anti-harm reductionist

00:09:29.240 uh it's also stupid and it ignores the nature of people altogether for the purpose of ideology he

00:09:37.160 claims he's against the draft but is for compelled taxation which makes no sense both would be duties

00:09:42.680 to protect and run the society one is in he's basically a walking contradiction all of his views

00:09:48.880 are contradictory and with that i'll yield my time uh since andrew went a little bit over uh oliver

00:09:57.080 you're welcome to have additional time for your open if you'd like go ahead appreciate it all right

00:10:01.860 thank you andrew for that opening statement thank you brian uh for having me back it's good to be

00:10:05.640 here so the resolution that we're debating um i guess we've kind of agreed on is whether feminism

00:10:09.880 is good or bad for society i will be taking the affirmative claim that it is good for society so you

00:10:15.620 know two things that are important when we're having a conversation um about feminism and good is to

00:10:19.740 kind of define both of those terms so the way that i'm going to be defining feminism is and this is not

00:10:24.600 an exhaustive definition and there might be some development on this is the belief that individuals

00:10:29.160 should have equal rights freedoms and opportunities regardless of gender and that barriers based solely

00:10:34.260 on gender should be dismantled the way that i'm defining good will be kind of a constellation of

00:10:39.280 good so it's going to be kind of a lot of things that feminism benefits or that feminism leads to

00:10:44.160 and a lot of these things i'm going to presuppose are good because i think a lot of the audience will be

00:10:48.760 sympathetic to these being good these include things like stronger families this includes things like

00:10:53.440 healthier families this includes things like reproductive autonomy this includes things such

00:10:58.620 as greater economic output i have stuff to back up all of this the idea of stronger families

00:11:03.900 in shared responsibilities and shared parenting healthier families in reproductive autonomy and

00:11:10.860 parental leave and workplace protection so something like parental leave is associated with reductions

00:11:15.880 in infant mortality it improves maternal health and long-term child well-being

00:11:20.560 reproductive autonomy reproductive autonomy is linked to healthier pregnancies lower rates of maternal

00:11:25.820 depression better childhood nutrition or better child nutrition and immunization rates and medicaid

00:11:32.120 expansion is was something that was pioneered by feminists which led to maternal coverage of things

00:11:37.680 such as childbirth and it narrowed disparities in health outcomes and birth outcomes and improved access

00:11:43.480 to prenatal services we can move on to some of the economic benefits so for example dual income households where there are two

00:11:50.500 individuals who are working are significantly more protected against poverty and food insecurity during

00:11:55.760 economic downturns feminism advocates education as well high quality childhood education programs for example for every one dollar

00:12:04.360 invested in these high quality childhood education programs and we get sixteen dollars in return this was given by no nobel prize

00:12:11.640 winning economist James Heckman and the benefits to children of working moms from the harvard business school show that dog daughters of working

00:12:20.500 mothers earn 23 percent more than daughters of stay-at-home moms and their sons also spend seven and a half hours

00:12:27.600 more per week caring for the children that they end up having so just in general i'm going to be affirming that i'm going to be

00:12:33.660 arguing that feminism is a good for society based on these constellation of goods i'm not necessarily defending a world view here today i'm merely defending that these things are good and feminism contributes to these things that are good so these statements are

00:12:48.500 ultimately conditional statements so if you care about greater economic output if you care about a decreasing infant mortality then you should care about feminism and support feminism as a good for society so that is all i have for the opening statement

00:13:04.600 all right we open yeah um can we start let's back up real quick with your i just want to write it down word for word what's your definition for feminism

00:13:15.540 yeah sure i've got it for you um so the belief that individual the belief that individuals should have equal rights freedoms and opportunities

00:13:23.460 regardless of gender hang on okay belief sorry individuals should have yes equal rights freedoms and opportunities

00:13:32.600 would you guys like to define any other terms here at the start or yeah hang on there's a few that i want to do

00:13:38.860 should have equal rights and what um freedoms and opportunities freedoms

00:13:45.360 and opportunities yes regardless of gender

00:13:52.120 well that'd be regardless well i guess sex or sex sex right regardless of sex okay

00:14:00.340 regardless of sex and is this uh do you consider this to be a proprietary definition or a historically

00:14:09.440 apt definition i'm just providing the definition if you disagree with the definition then we can go back and

00:14:14.280 forth and determine which definition we feel is best or the audience can um decide which definition they

00:14:19.720 feel is a better definition yeah i understand that we can decide that which definition we want to do

00:14:24.100 i'm asking another question though okay is the it's not a trick question okay is the definition do you

00:14:29.660 consider this to be proprietary meaning this is what oliver believes feminism is or do you think that this

00:14:34.760 is a historically accurate definition i mean i think it's a combination of both so i think yes it's the

00:14:39.700 definition that i'm putting forward and which what historical historical if you're looking at it from a historical

00:14:45.540 standpoint what would be the kind of like uh idea that you would draw this from for what feminism is i mean various

00:14:52.280 feminist thinkers who propose definitions of this nature um betty for dan is one of them who wrote a book called the

00:14:57.420 feminine mystique okay um we can talk about various other individuals who contributed to that sally

00:15:03.180 haslinger put forward definitions that are very similar to this but that's kind of what i would say

00:15:09.080 is there so it's kind of a combination of both okay got you and then you utilize utilitarianism for good

00:15:18.680 ah that's not that's not the position that i'm defending here so no i'm not defending what good is

00:15:25.060 in this debate these are conditional statements in that for example greater economic output is a good

00:15:30.100 thing if greater economic output is a good thing then feminism helps achieve that goal i'm not

00:15:35.240 ultimately defending what essentially good is i'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of

00:15:42.020 where i'm not looking for a moral debate saying what is good and bad i'm just looking for

00:15:46.680 the viewpoint that you so if you're saying if you're saying that these are conditionals for for what is

00:15:52.760 good or what is bad what would make them conditional for what is good and bad just somebody else believed

00:15:57.060 that conditionally they were good if someone disagrees that for example um greater economic

00:16:02.120 output is a good thing or that stronger and healthier families are a good thing if they disagree

00:16:05.940 and think that those are not necessarily good things then then so this is conditional on if

00:16:11.860 stronger families and healthier families are good things do you believe they're good things yes i do

00:16:16.020 believe they're good things okay so how do you make those ascertain how do you ascertain that through

00:16:19.940 utilitarianism no not necessarily through utilitarianism i'm appealing to generally commonly held

00:16:25.100 beliefs that i think most people are sympathetic to and i'm moving just from that shared premises

00:16:31.420 hopefully so general beliefs so like shared intuitions sure we can go off that just i think a majority of

00:16:40.660 people um i mean i don't know we can ask the audience think that stronger families is a good thing

00:16:45.400 healthier families is a good thing um reduce reducing childhood poverty and things like that are good

00:16:50.700 things so that's kind of what i'm basing it off of so shared intuitions sure okay and that's what

00:16:57.140 you're basically when you're saying good and bad you're saying based around just make sure i got a

00:17:01.360 clearer based around the shared intuitions of me and most people i think most people would agree that

00:17:07.600 these things are good sure for the purposes of this debate yes okay yes i'm not claiming that whatever

00:17:13.700 the consensus believes is automatically therefore correct i'm just claiming for this debate i'm appealing

00:17:18.940 to these shared premises and intuitions that i think most people will hold most people believe

00:17:25.320 this okay all right and then i think there was one more thing um when you say conditional yeah so

00:17:35.540 you're saying um the conditional belief i just want to make sure i got this right this is based around

00:17:41.460 the condition that people agree with you agree that things such as stronger families are good that

00:17:47.420 healthier families are good which are things you believe yeah so it'd be so it's people who agree

00:17:52.160 with you yes so then conditional here means people who agree with me it's the belief is conditional on

00:17:58.420 if you believe that stronger families is a good thing or if you believe that healthier families is a good

00:18:04.300 thing which you believe yes okay so that's why it's conditional if you don't believe those are good

00:18:08.460 things then of course my argument's not going to follow because you haven't accepted the first part of it

00:18:12.860 so if people want to disagree with that that's fine i'm not going to go into detail to justify why

00:18:17.680 strong families or healthy families or um greater economic output is a good thing okay i'm actually

00:18:24.380 fine so let's start with um if you want to build your pro-feminist case let's do it sure so i mean i kind

00:18:31.300 of did it a little bit here um i talked about if you don't mind let's go a point at a time okay sure

00:18:36.320 so um as i talked about um a little bit regarding stronger families um this idea that stronger families

00:18:42.900 um in a way includes shared responsibilities and shared parenting so when both parents are involved

00:18:49.080 in the child's life um it leads to as i talked about higher levels of children um for example the girls

00:18:55.660 end up earning more money when they end up going into the workforce and the men end up spending more time

00:19:00.000 with their children so i think that's just kind of one example of a way in which that is a stronger

00:19:05.100 family where is that they make they make more money well for the for the women they make more money

00:19:10.980 yeah so how does feminism promote better outcomes for for their children for their children directly

00:19:16.480 yeah there's various ways i can go back to if we want to go to um because the family is really

00:19:23.580 important right yeah do you consider the family to be mommy daddy child not necessarily what do you

00:19:28.300 consider the family to be i don't think there is one singular definition for example i um am a

00:19:33.620 child of divorced parents so they've been divorced since i was about two years old yeah but if you have

00:19:37.280 divorced parents are you a family well i would say that i have a family with my mom and i have a family

00:19:42.520 with my dad but you're not a family well with those people i'm not they are your family correct but

00:19:47.200 you're not operating as a family i would say that my mom and i were a family and my dad and i were a

00:19:52.300 family okay so you had two families yeah in a sense okay so do you think that that was stronger

00:19:58.040 that that was a stronger family unit um i actually do think so because we're only like we're assuming

00:20:03.980 that the two people um splitting up would be better than them staying together and i do think in my

00:20:08.680 situation it was better that my parents did end up getting divorced so in an ideal situation of course

00:20:13.460 you know having two parents in the household is better it's going to be much better right yeah 100%

00:20:17.860 i'm not i'm not disagreeing with that so how is feminism assisting with that by promoting

00:20:22.560 alternative lifestyles wait but i i didn't i didn't say that the nuclear family with like one

00:20:28.740 mom and one dad is necessarily um the best thing i said two parents being in the household what's

00:20:33.840 better um i think that same-sex relationships can be just as um good in terms of flourishing for

00:20:39.500 children involved okay so let me ask you this if a three men who are homosexuals wanted to adopt a

00:20:47.360 baby in a thruple would you be would you support that i haven't fully fleshed out my views on like

00:20:53.540 in terms of like multiple people marrying so i'm not sure i just haven't looked into the

00:20:58.300 data on it well you just said to me that feminism strengthens the family unit and i asked you why

00:21:05.640 is promotion of alternative lifestyles something which promotes family units and you said yes that

00:21:11.960 would be an alternative lifestyle right when you say it promotes alternative lifestyles that doesn't mean

00:21:16.400 that i accept every alternative lifestyle that may be out which one okay so i was talking which

00:21:20.960 ones do you accept i i would largely accept that same-sex relationships of two individuals of the

00:21:26.740 same sex okay would be now three okay probably what if they were brothers they were brothers yeah

00:21:32.660 no i don't yeah i'm not i'm not a fan of incest andrew you're not gonna well i don't understand

00:21:37.860 you just said if two same-sex people had a child okay right you you would be fine with that right

00:21:43.600 no not if they're related just because wait a second why hold on when you ask me a question

00:21:48.320 like that there's so many presuppositions surrounding it for example can do you think

00:21:53.560 two men but they both abuse their children do you think they're good that's a good

00:21:57.100 presupposition did i did i add i you you added a presupposition or you added something to it what

00:22:02.760 they're related of course then if they're related then they shouldn't be in that relationship the same

00:22:06.740 way that if they're like abusive no you wouldn't even no that standard wouldn't even apply like if

00:22:11.660 somebody was fourth cousins to somebody or third cousins he probably wouldn't care so it's not just

00:22:16.900 it's not just the relational aspect in this case though there's no harm which is applied that i can

00:22:22.860 detect if it's two consenting adult men right and they're in a relationship and they're both brothers

00:22:28.760 why shouldn't they be able to adopt dude well i mean if you want to get into a conversation i i don't

00:22:33.920 want to get into a conversation around the ethics of incest i think it's not it's not a conversation

00:22:37.640 around the ethics of incest is a conversation around the idea of alternative lifestyles being

00:22:42.240 somehow better because you promote alternative lifestyles right you don't have justification

00:22:46.960 to stop other alternative lifestyles so once again just because i say that there are certain

00:22:52.580 alternative lifestyles that are a possibility it does not entail that i think every single

00:22:57.400 alternative lifestyle that's fine so tell me what your objections are to this alternative lifestyle

00:23:02.640 what i i'm not really sure i don't know wait a second no but wait andrew i just haven't i haven't

00:23:08.040 looked into if if there was research behind yeah three people raising a child i know there's the

00:23:12.820 phrase that it takes a village okay great so let's try this a different way if if two brothers

00:23:17.960 adopted a child they were in an incestuous relationship they can't reproduce you agree with

00:23:22.420 that right yeah okay and let's just say that there was a trial run where there was like

00:23:27.900 i don't know five of incestuous brothers that retract okay well that's and we were able to

00:23:33.580 and it's a low sample size there's probably not that many but let's just assume for a second that

00:23:37.840 the outcomes of the children were good and all the available data said the outcomes for the children

00:23:42.540 were fine would you support that i don't think so because i'm i don't know how i feel about the idea

00:23:48.480 of two brothers it's not the fact that they're because i think if they're in a relationship like are

00:23:53.380 they i don't know are they are they just raising a child together are they and also having sex with

00:23:58.560 each other yes i think then you're mixing for example like normal familial relations with a type

00:24:04.500 of romantic and sexual relation i think there is research on this that shows that if there is that

00:24:09.780 type of um relationship that happens in an incestuous relationship it does kind of pervert the meaning

00:24:15.160 of family and that type of i see but not when it's two homosexual men i don't necessarily think so

00:24:19.460 why you'd like because i don't think that you would just be basing both of these arguments on

00:24:24.180 stigma what do you mean on stick well you say that if there's a social dynamic which is not there but

00:24:29.620 you can't point to any direct harm to the child you would just be pointing i'm not necessarily going

00:24:33.880 on a harm principle here what are you going on what am i going on yeah i mean i'm going on the best

00:24:38.200 interest of the child but that's not just harm okay the best interest of the child what other than

00:24:43.360 stigma here is actually problematic here what's other than stigma it's not just stigma though

00:24:48.960 because if you're mixing yeah like sex with a family yeah okay it will cause other problems you

00:24:54.220 mean like every person on planet earth does who has a family what are you talking about i'm not i'm not

00:24:58.260 talking about spouses and i'm not talking about that of course there that exists what the hell are you

00:25:02.700 talking about i'm talking between individuals such as brothers or such as a father and they're a son or

00:25:09.620 daughter that that will lead to a perversion of the family dynamic because it's not the same but two

00:25:15.020 homosexuals won't i know i don't think so why why the only association that i can get here is stigma

00:25:22.380 the only thing i can think of here is stigma it's not stigma i think it would lead to worse outcomes

00:25:26.660 for the children now based on what hold on you're stipulating yeah based on what based on the already

00:25:31.500 available data what already available data of children who are products of incestuous relationships

00:25:37.380 or experience incest it's not they're not experiencing incest they're raised by if the

00:25:43.920 mom and dad are both parents but if it's a case that the outcomes for the children are on par with

00:25:49.620 the outcomes of other homosexuals what would your actual objection here be the problem with this type

00:25:54.820 of argumentation is you're stipulating out the exact thing that you can do the same thing give me the

00:25:59.740 stipulations and i'll give you my objections but the thing is is like here we go i just want to know

00:26:05.360 other than stigma what would actually be the objection to this family unit what i'm saying

00:26:10.800 that it probably wouldn't lead to better outcomes you're based on what you're stipulating what are

00:26:15.720 you basing that on already available data there's no already available data of of men and women who

00:26:20.940 are married and are married and are related yeah and when they have when they have biological children

00:26:26.620 not for adoption okay can these people reproduce didn't we establish they can't they can reproduce so

00:26:31.640 then what what what so why is your intuition remember this is what i wanted to get to you said

00:26:38.460 that the purposes of what is good is going to be shared intuition great so if that's the case you

00:26:44.360 would say that it's good two brothers don't get married and adopt children don't get married and

00:26:49.780 adopt children yeah two brothers to two brothers yeah they don't get married yeah they're not sexual

00:26:54.980 that's probably good they're not really they're not romantic partners yeah no no no no no no you

00:27:00.800 would you would say that two brothers should not get married two brothers should not get married and

00:27:05.380 adopt children right yes because they're based on shared intuition yeah because they're brothers

00:27:10.200 yeah because they're brothers right so if there's a shared intuition against homosexuals you would have

00:27:15.660 to bite the bullet then that you don't think homosexuals should adopt that's not necessarily what i'm

00:27:20.780 arguing i'm saying okay can you make this logically follow people who have what is good is people's

00:27:26.920 shared intuition not necessarily conditionally no no yeah and i'm arguing from conditional premise

00:27:33.320 if you reject things that i mentioned let's make sure we got this right conditional means shared

00:27:38.400 intuition your exact words sure for the purpose of this conversation andrew of these things that

00:27:44.480 doesn't mean that you throw out another thing that i didn't mention and then claim bro yeah i'm sorry

00:27:49.560 did you say does conditional in this conversation mean shared intuition or not shared intuition of

00:27:54.440 the things that i mentioned of course because that's what i'm arguing you can't just throw out

00:27:58.700 another thing and be like oh so you agree with this you agree with this it's only conditional on

00:28:03.700 five things it's conditional on these things yes so that's what i'm arguing you can't make the

00:28:09.460 argument hey i just want to make sure i got this right so um when it comes to this we're not talking

00:28:16.360 about shared intuition anymore we're only talking about shared intuition when it comes to your few

00:28:19.860 arguments against feminism because you don't want to take an actual position i am taking an actual

00:28:23.800 no no no you don't you say these are conditional positions because i don't want my worldview to be

00:28:29.020 investigated on these positions the reason i don't want it is because no listen to me because this is

00:28:33.460 what you do is you go down a meta-ethics rabbit hole where you try to reduce a view to absurdity and

00:28:38.160 then a conversation because a conversation that was meant to be about feminism it is then is dragged

00:28:44.120 out into a three-hour debate about the fundamental precepts of reality and i think that gets so away

00:28:50.360 from the conversation didn't you say that alternative families are good certain alternative families it

00:28:55.680 doesn't mean it doesn't mean certain alternative families are good right it depends what you mean

00:28:59.120 by alternative families yeah but you said certain ones are good sure okay fine so in this case you

00:29:04.380 said homosexual families yeah that's are good right why are they good because it leads to it leads to

00:29:09.800 the studies that i've seen at least two comparable comparable outcomes to um nuclear families then

00:29:16.240 heterosexual then just to be consistent here if it was the case that you had studies that said

00:29:21.280 that the results of an incestuous relationship between a man and a man they have a kid that they

00:29:27.640 adopted and the outcomes were some were on par with that of other homosexual men yeah you would

00:29:32.320 be for them adopting right uh-huh if bad is good then it's good sure yeah well i just want to make

00:29:37.280 sure that i got this right hold on you're stipulating things that just aren't the case what is it the

00:29:42.020 case it doesn't line up with any of the other available data of three men who are brothers or

00:29:46.980 two men who are brothers having what does that do with anything because it doesn't lead to better

00:29:52.380 outcomes you're stipulating wait wait there's no data on this well i'm talking about the data that

00:29:57.500 happens yeah i know but great so there's no data on this though and i'm just asking if there was

00:30:01.380 if there was data on this you would have no objection to it right sure but that's just because

00:30:07.820 that that's not how it works because you would have to prove that there's a relevant difference as to

00:30:12.240 why a mother and father who are who are related um raising let's not even let's say adopting just to

00:30:17.640 keep it the same adopting children and raising that um that that that's bad there's been data on that

00:30:23.240 you would have to say that there's some relevant difference between two men that therefore would make

00:30:27.480 it good and not in this case and i don't see what how that would make any whatever the same case would

00:30:33.340 be for your objections for the incestuousness right uh being some type of problematic caricature even

00:30:40.380 though we had a data set that said it was the outcomes for the child seemingly were okay do you

00:30:46.080 think that you would still object to the incestuous part of this in the in the two dad's cases but not

00:30:52.120 the heterosexual case then i think then you're just stipulating that that's going to be the case here and

00:30:56.460 i don't think that makes perfect so then my first argument is just conditional i'm just saying that

00:31:03.320 conditionally for the sake of just this one argument that if the intuition of the audience

00:31:09.700 is that men who have sex with each other right and are in incestuous relationships shouldn't adopt

00:31:17.380 because uh they have intuitions against it and since that's hang on hang on that's not my

00:31:22.180 that's not my worldview bro that's not my it's not my worldview but it's conditional to this one

00:31:28.140 argument i'm just appealing conditionally in this one argument that alternative families are bad

00:31:34.180 right and the reason they're bad is because they're shared intuitions against men so doing these things

00:31:40.420 that is fine yeah i'm not getting into a debate about alternative families but that's quite good or

00:31:45.220 wait but i'm sorry you did though because you said that alternative feminism pushes alternative families and

00:31:51.600 it allows families are good it allows for alternative yeah it's pushing okay so right so i'm just saying

00:31:57.200 that conditionally my argument back is that as long as we have a shared intuition men against

00:32:02.160 alternative family structures that's good for this debate for this debate that's good absolutely

00:32:06.420 because i'm not arguing in this debate right now okay why that's perfect then i think that we have

00:32:12.020 uh taken care of this one on alternative families just conditionally if you intuitively don't like

00:32:17.840 that shit it's good we both agree moving to the next point okay sure yeah ready fine yeah so i will

00:32:24.720 all of these are conditional statements on if you agree oh great well then i will just give a

00:32:29.140 counter conditional that well if you just have an intuition that this guy's a fucking idiot then he

00:32:35.000 loses the debate it's a conditional i don't believe that but it's conditional that's fine wait but i'm

00:32:40.260 arguing that these things are good so for example would you agree that healthier families is a good

00:32:46.740 thing yeah well we haven't established what i think a family is yet okay do you think do you think

00:32:52.420 healthier families in your view is a good thing yeah in my view a healthier but hang on we're

00:32:57.180 equivocating though because i don't want to talk past each other and equivocate where you say family i say

00:33:02.440 family and we pretend that we're saying the same thing to me a family can be a cross-generational

00:33:07.400 nuclear family unit i think the cross-generational unit's even better than the nuclear family unit i think

00:33:13.260 that if it's the case that you take away the female or male component from the family it necessarily

00:33:18.360 weakens it necessarily based on weakens it based on and here well here's why evidence well not only

00:33:24.540 available evidence but we can see what the outcomes are when children have the mom and the father inside

00:33:31.000 of the home and we also see what happens with single motherhood the rates of abuse various things like

00:33:35.580 this when the father is not yes in the home and this is usually initiated by women women are the ones who

00:33:41.940 are the the um overwhelming initiators of the destruction of that family unit sure from from

00:33:50.280 the data set that i've seen and what i what i've looked at regarding the health and well-being of

00:33:54.080 children it is true that children do better in a house where there's a mom and a dad than just a mom

00:33:59.400 or just a dad but that's because there's two parents in the house no not necessarily then explain

00:34:03.960 lesbians what then explain the lesbian conditions what the rates of domestic abuse with lesbians and the

00:34:09.200 outcome for lesbian children is not the same as that of gay men they do not have the same outcome

00:34:13.900 so all that would prove then is that two men can raise a child but then maybe two women so then you

00:34:19.860 think i'm not so then i just want to make sure that two lesbians raising a child we should be yeah

00:34:25.200 because that's not so healthy then if you know hold on if the data shows that it would lead to worse

00:34:31.180 outcomes for the child no no no because if you're making an argument about domestic violence rates which i

00:34:36.100 haven't looked that much no no it's also abuse rates towards children i once again conditionally

00:34:41.980 on that statement being true yeah then yeah it would probably not be best for the children okay

00:34:46.420 so so those alternative lifestyles so if two gay men right they have a child and i was able to prove

00:34:53.120 like i don't know that um the children of gay men inside of the narrow study set right that you've

00:34:59.780 probably looked at i don't know if you have the studies handy but i'm sure that i can reference them

00:35:03.680 really quick that the outcomes are just a little bit worse for children if they're raised by

00:35:11.120 homosexuals rather than adopted by heterosexuals and we know that every single child in the united

00:35:16.640 states gets adopted every single one all of them 100 percent like not yeah then that would make a good

00:35:22.140 case for why homosexual men probably shouldn't be allowed to adopt right no i don't think that's the

00:35:26.400 case why here's the reason because i bet there are certain heterosexual relationships among certain

00:35:30.800 people that are better than others so you talked about wait a second but you're saying if it's

00:35:34.980 hold on we're talking about averages hold on no no but you're saying fine yeah would you say an

00:35:38.720 intergenerational family you're talking about you said that's better than the regular nuclear family

00:35:43.020 generally generally yeah so would you say that because an intergenerational family is better that

00:35:48.260 therefore regular nuclear families are well because both of those family units right are still

00:35:54.900 superior to any of these alternative family well hold on but you made the claim that if gay men who are

00:36:00.000 raising a child it's slightly i'm not a utilitarian you are no no no you're saying it's your harm

00:36:05.220 reductionist not me i never made a claim of harm reduction yes you did you're ascribing this to

00:36:09.820 me are you a harm reductionist i'm not making that argument are you a harm reductionist you're trying

00:36:14.760 to pin me down just answer the fucking question are you i would say largely i ascribe to threshold

00:36:19.780 deontology so not just special deontology i think where's the threshold before we switch to

00:36:25.780 utilitarianism i don't think that there are black and white answers to a lot of these questions and

00:36:30.520 that's because i don't want to ascribe a worldview andrew okay i just want to make sure i got this

00:36:34.180 right you're a threshold deontologist so at it i just make sure i got this right threshold

00:36:41.260 deontology is you believe in universal a universal form of ethics up to some threshold and then you

00:36:47.520 switch over to utilitarianism i think there's a balancing act between the two i don't think that

00:36:51.560 there is so what's the threshold i don't think there is one threshold for every single situation

00:36:55.940 i can't give it no no wait a second andrew just because we can't draw a specific line in the sand

00:37:01.520 where two things differ doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a difference it's the same thing as

00:37:05.500 a sorority's paradox and it's the same thing with the fallacy of like the heap and the pile yeah okay so

00:37:10.780 so so the thing is like that's fair if you want to say that there's a threshold fallacy in there

00:37:15.440 where you can't describe from what when one thing changes to another thing yeah right i just want you

00:37:21.180 to remember later in the debate that you said that when i make that same fallacy back when we

00:37:25.520 get to a different topic but just remember that you said that fine okay great so we have that yes

00:37:30.260 now uh back to feminism and why it's so great for society let's start with how does it reinforce

00:37:36.560 um heterosexual normative behaviors in society how does it do that what do you mean heterosexual

00:37:42.160 normative behavior like like that that they ought to act in a specific way i don't think it does and i

00:37:47.020 don't think that's a bad thing yeah okay so why is that a good thing because i think it's better if

00:37:51.700 individuals have uh a more expansive version of masculinity or femininity that they can adopt

00:37:57.460 into so i don't think the man wait a second i don't think the man always has to be the provider

00:38:01.460 and i don't think that the woman always has to be the stay-at-home yeah those aren't masculine or

00:38:04.900 feminine traits well that's largely things we ascribe to masculinity oh is it what is masculinity

00:38:09.100 first well it's hard to say exactly what it is i mean what do you consider it to be i think it

00:38:14.020 is considered a lot of traits such as you know i don't know courage confidence assertiveness i don't

00:38:20.060 think they're real i don't think they're actually real categories do you think that if a man is sick

00:38:24.440 and he's in the hospital right because he has cancer that other men consider him to be less of a man

00:38:29.640 because his wife's providing no no of course not but it's not but it's not of course not it's not

00:38:34.520 based exactly would she be considered more feminine in fact by the fact that she's taking care of him

00:38:39.340 while he's so sick that that he she's doing her wifely duty i don't think necessarily i but i don't

00:38:44.120 think you can also ascribe masculinity and femininity to these rigid like categorizations of things yeah

00:38:49.200 so what is it what is it then what is masculinity what is it i don't think there is a comprehensive

00:38:54.260 thing i actually agree i don't think that masculinity and femininity are good categories to go off of

00:38:58.980 because it reinforces already gendered norms there so i don't like i'm not really positioned well let me

00:39:05.200 give you let me give you a counter then okay the reason that we utilize masculinity and the reason

00:39:10.040 that we utilize femininity is because we're ascribing virtues to men and women and they're

00:39:15.680 shared virtues so you would agree with me that courage is a shared virtue between men and women

00:39:19.700 yes but i hang on okay you would agree with me that temperance shared virtue you would agree with

00:39:26.620 me that you know generosity perhaps shared virtue things like this right and they aren't exercised

00:39:31.500 differently what's that and i don't think they're exercised differently ah

00:39:34.900 i'm not saying i'm not even saying that okay so so let's start with shared so you agree that

00:39:39.220 they're shared right yeah but here's the problem and here's where we get masculinity from if it is

00:39:44.600 the case that one sex does or does not apply one of these virtues the social cohesiveness and the

00:39:52.380 destruction to society drastically increases in comparison to the other sex meaning let's take

00:39:58.080 courage for instance okay now if all if females right lost courage when it came to like i don't know

00:40:06.320 um dealing with intruders and things like this right if courage was not kind of on the menu there

00:40:12.740 for social protection right society would would get objectively worse you would agree right i think so

00:40:19.740 if men lost courage there wouldn't be fucking society at all and so that's why it's ascribed

00:40:26.140 as a masculine virtue because if men don't apply this virtue society fails or if women don't apply

00:40:33.400 this virtue with social cohesion and society begins its collapse okay fine but i don't see how that

00:40:40.120 necessarily boxes things into masculinity or femininity i think if women how does it not hold on i think

00:40:45.760 how does it not bro can i explain yeah go ahead okay so i don't think that if women just suddenly

00:40:50.360 stopped expressing courage it depends we'd have to define what courage means like what if women

00:40:54.640 by courage you know you're courageous maybe a woman doesn't want to get out literally whatever

00:40:58.620 child okay fine if she doesn't want to take care of her children if every single woman decided they

00:41:03.380 weren't going to take care of their children and let's say i don't know breastfeed their children do

00:41:07.120 the normal things that you would describe that women either ought to do in their role i think that would

00:41:12.260 lead to the downfall of society well let me give you an easier one temperance

00:41:15.500 just take temperance for instance temperance is necessary for both sexes in order to even have

00:41:20.600 virtues to begin with sure but if women become hysterical versus when men become hysterical

00:41:26.220 the side effects of this are much much worse when men become hysterical versus women yeah why though

00:41:31.660 because they're way fucking stronger i also think they exercise their hysteria in a more violent way

00:41:38.660 because they're way fucking stronger i don't think just because someone's stronger

00:41:42.500 women women when women are hysterical they become very violent just like men do the distinction is

00:41:48.080 they can't do as much damage okay and so if that's the case then when we look at this virtue for

00:41:54.200 instance if men lose control of that virtue it's way fucking worse than if women do right that's why

00:42:00.640 it's masculine versus feminine virtues are associated with the masculine and the feminine okay so i'm then i'm

00:42:07.620 just curious on the view what would be a virtue that i guess if women lost that virtue it would be

00:42:13.140 worse for society than men and we can yeah i mean we can dive right into it so chastity would be an easy

00:42:20.120 one okay so men for instance they can impregnate basically like as many as many women as they can

00:42:27.480 make a deal for right as many as if there was a hundred women who were lined up here today and you

00:42:32.520 could have sex 100 times you could impregnate 100 women sure we're assuming they're consenting to the

00:42:37.840 sex yeah you could actually do that right but you agree that women can't they can only get pregnant by

00:42:42.620 one man at a time yeah sure there is so then if that's the case then when we're talking about the

00:42:48.420 social cohesion right women are basically going to be the gatekeepers of whose dna passes on and whose

00:42:53.900 dna doesn't pass on you agree with that how are they the gatekeepers though well because you

00:42:58.900 you can have as many children as you want sure they can't yes yes they can't so they get to

00:43:05.380 basically be the selection for reproduction not you okay yeah do you do you see what i'm saying

00:43:12.620 they get to be the yeah they get to be kind of the gatekeepers for who gets to reproduce and who

00:43:18.020 doesn't get to reproduce whereas you right you can just reproduce with like everything that you saw

00:43:23.220 as many partners as you could arrange for who would agree you could actually impregnate all of them

00:43:28.300 right sure but would then you so for women probably also agree they shouldn't do that yeah yeah so if

00:43:32.520 women aren't chased right if they're not chased and they have sex with like 50 men right at least

00:43:38.440 this used to be the case especially then paternity comes into question other things come into question

00:43:43.020 right not really the case with men if you had sex with 100 women yeah right and no other men had sex

00:43:49.780 with them right or 100 men had sex with this woman and what are you doing dude

00:43:55.720 this guy's like fucking shifty behind me i'm like what the fuck is he doing

00:44:01.500 fuck all right so where were we at oh yeah yeah yeah so it conditional we're talking about the

00:44:07.720 gatekeeping of uh female pregnancy okay i just don't see how it's different in terms of like men would

00:44:14.100 have questionable about paternity if they have sex how would they have questions about with 100 women

00:44:19.780 are you assuming that only one man is having sex with these 100 women or all of men are having sex

00:44:26.000 with 100 women yeah yeah so if it is the case that a woman has sex with uh with 20 different men

00:44:32.140 right uh it is the case that uh paternity is going to be in question right sure that is that is indeed the

00:44:40.020 case paternity is going to be in question yeah paternity is going to be in question yeah so if we go

00:44:44.160 back the reason i'm tying this in with virtue is the reason i'm kind of moving from the back end to

00:44:48.120 the front end is to explain this concept to you i wish i had home math skills so i could draw this out

00:44:53.300 let us assume for a moment that you wanted to be assured that your child was yours and you didn't

00:45:00.740 have paternity tests okay how could you do that in the like in the old like i guess a long time ago

00:45:08.040 well it's not that long ago paternity tests are modern fine um and you want to be sure of it

00:45:12.600 yeah i guess then only you would be having sex with your wife or something like that or you would

00:45:18.600 you would you would want to have sex with a woman who wasn't actively having sex with other men at

00:45:22.240 the same time and i think that's perfect i think that's a perfectly normal boundary wait hang on what

00:45:26.300 is the last thing you just said you would want to make sure what that you that you and you know

00:45:31.000 your wife were the only people having sex with each other right i think there's nothing wrong with

00:45:34.440 what would be a good what would be a good tell for that what do you mean that she wasn't having

00:45:39.620 sex with a lot of men before you right wait no i don't necessarily think that's you don't think so

00:45:44.020 no i don't think so i think people can um engage in a lot of sexual activity because they're enjoying

00:45:48.940 that and they enter a monogamous relationship and decide that that's what's best for them and

00:45:52.860 and that's what they want i don't think that just because she chooses to have a lot of sex outside

00:45:57.620 of a relationship means that she she should automatically be distrusted within a monogamous

00:46:02.580 relationship so let's just make sure we got this right is it same for men though we're gonna set

00:46:05.820 this no it's not but i'll get into that next if a man if a man has sex with a bunch of people if a

00:46:10.040 man has sex with a bunch of people and he gets into a relationship i'm gonna explain it i'm gonna

00:46:13.300 explain it okay but let's move into this because we're talking about the social destruction aspect

00:46:17.360 so let's start with this you think that it is the case that if a if a woman has a promiscuous past

00:46:26.340 right that that should essentially not in any way show men should show no distrust towards that

00:46:32.080 woman for the purposes of having a family with her hold on was she in relationships with people

00:46:38.200 and was she lying to them and was she cheating on them just having a lot of promiscuous sex with

00:46:42.260 many many men and that's fine well i guess we're assuming also like no stds no stuff like that just

00:46:47.400 bake it in okay fine then yeah no i don't there shouldn't be any trust distinction at all no i mean

00:46:52.020 you have conversations with this person be like yeah no i had that passed i and even i enjoyed that part

00:46:56.820 of my life but i want to settle down would you say that those those women would probably be on par

00:47:01.500 with trust of like virgin women when it came to that uh-huh right it follows right sure except

00:47:06.940 it doesn't because you didn't think about it and here's why okay there's uh if i were to ask you

00:47:12.940 about comparisons right comparatively yeah if a woman only has sex with one partner can she compare any

00:47:19.220 other partners to that man she's had sex with no i guess not so she wouldn't be knowing what she was

00:47:24.660 missing out on or not missing out on right sure yeah so then if that's the case if a virgin got

00:47:30.720 married right she would have no other men to make comparisons against for any potentiality she might

00:47:37.120 be missing out on correct hold on yes but then you're claiming that you should marry virgin women

00:47:42.400 because there might not be another guy or there might they're not going to have a reference for

00:47:46.360 another guy who's better at having sex than you are or better at whatever the traits are so the

00:47:51.140 the more that human beings experience partners how's that weird it just blows your it blows your

00:47:57.060 position no no it doesn't blow my position you said there's no distinct thing that we could ever

00:48:01.520 point to right and this is because when i asked you hey do you think that it's the case that if you

00:48:07.460 have a virgin woman right versus a very promiscuous woman they're equally as trustworthy you said yes

00:48:13.160 however you instantly blow your own position out the second you say that there is a comparative

00:48:18.020 analysis which people are going to be making that would erode the trust immediately wait a second so

00:48:23.600 i can i just so i can understand your position i want to just restate what you're saying back to

00:48:27.260 you are you saying that because a woman who had more sex before marriage has more experience with

00:48:32.260 what men she likes and what men she doesn't like that therefore within the marriage if she's unhappy

00:48:37.100 with the state of the current marriage she has things to compare it to and thus she might be more

00:48:41.700 likely to leave or well not just that right but it could be that if she had never experienced and

00:48:49.360 in fact this is this is likely because women polled say this if she had never experienced these other

00:48:54.940 men and had no comparison she would actually be much happier in the current relationship that she

00:48:59.280 was in that's just okay so ignorance is blessed is what it's not ignorance well it is she doesn't

00:49:03.360 know about the other men it's a comparative well then by your standards should she just fuck a bunch

00:49:07.000 of minutes so that she knows no no no no wait wait so which thing is more preferable for society

00:49:13.040 then wait wait but you're making a false dichotomy you're making a false dichotomy you are you're

00:49:17.400 saying that there's on one side yeah that women do not have sex or before marriage whatsoever at all

00:49:23.280 and the other one is women just fuck people all the time no matter what no no just promiscuity i'm

00:49:28.540 just asking it would it would logically follow that if women had fucked two men she now has a

00:49:33.160 comparison yeah okay so then i think we would just say that every single time there's an

00:49:38.140 additional well okay then if you think wait you think it's a good thing then you have to be better

00:49:41.920 then wait a second then you have to be better than the other guys let's back up then you think it's a

00:49:45.600 good thing you just said i think that's a good thing so that means if that's a good thing why

00:49:49.780 shouldn't they fuck a lot of men so that they always they have the largest comparison sample size

00:49:54.860 possible i think it depends on the individual woman and what she wants some people don't want to

00:49:58.920 have that much sex some people just that doesn't answer my question if you think it's good

00:50:03.020 that she had sex with one more person right because now she has a comparative sample size

00:50:07.940 why shouldn't she have sex with hundreds of different people to make sure she has the best

00:50:12.420 comparative sample size absurdity oh bro i'm sorry i'm sorry that it's upsetting to you but it's not

00:50:17.920 it's not upsetting hold on do you think that eating broccoli is good do you think that we should just

00:50:23.560 eat as much broccoli as fucking possible all the time but do i did you think what we just eat an

00:50:28.340 insane amount so there can be a good thing and that thing can be good up to a threshold yeah the

00:50:33.660 thing is though is that if i were to say right eating lots of broccoli is good so i have a comparison

00:50:40.260 against other i don't know other vegetables or something like this right and you you rightly asked

00:50:46.720 me then well shouldn't we eat like a ton of broccoli then so we have the highest comparison we can also make

00:50:52.260 that and say well but we cut it off at this before it gets to the point of like you're gonna throw up

00:50:57.920 or something like this yeah right uh-huh that's fair but that would still equal a lot more men right

00:51:02.160 sure yeah so then then you think honestly that women probably ought to fuck a lot of men not ought

00:51:08.200 no no no i because i i also think then wouldn't they be missing out bro no i don't think they're

00:51:12.100 missing out how do they really know what their preferences are though bro because there's hold on

00:51:15.420 there because there are different women who want different things you're ascribing a monolith

00:51:19.780 some women might want to be virgins until marriage because they value sex in a significant

00:51:24.340 way that other women don't unless they're having sex with multiple men you don't necessarily have

00:51:29.060 to have sex with multiple men if you don't want that comparison you don't have to just because a

00:51:33.900 comparison might be helpful in certain instances doesn't mean that the negatives for that individual

00:51:38.980 person might not out might outweigh the positive benefits that they're having perfect so then is it the

00:51:44.540 case then right that if we're just looking at the cost benefit analysis of comparison for

00:51:49.760 outcome if we are to have the best outcomes with women who've only had one sexual partner

00:51:55.120 because there's no comparative analogy best outcomes can you just yeah this means they stay

00:51:59.340 in their marriages longer and report happiness levels that are higher which all virgins do almost

00:52:04.600 universally okay yeah what did i say overwhelming majority overwhelming majority do okay uh same thing

00:52:12.300 and the reason i say universal is because it doesn't matter the nation it doesn't matter the nation at

00:52:16.820 least in the western nation doesn't matter the nation uh when it comes to dissatisfaction now you

00:52:21.280 can look at some nations perhaps in the middle east where they measure dissatisfaction but you can't

00:52:25.060 tell if it's because they're virgins or because they live in the middle east right like you can't tell

00:52:29.640 but in western nations you can tell and here's how we know we can do an analysis from the

00:52:34.680 religious right the more religious they are the less promiscuous they often are and the more

00:52:38.840 often they get married virgins right and here's what ends up happening the non-religious the

00:52:43.580 secular women to get married virgins and the religious women to get married virgins both

00:52:47.560 report a much higher sexual satisfaction rate much higher attractive attraction rate right and they

00:52:54.740 have much less in the way of the marriage splitting up because they make no comparative analysis i think

00:53:00.500 making a weird comparative analysis is kind of strange because what it feels like you're saying

00:53:05.040 and correct me if i'm wrong is i don't want my wife to have had sex with other men because i don't

00:53:10.120 want her to compare the sex we're having to other men which might make me feel insecure and make me

00:53:14.820 feel that my sex let me ask you is that do you think honestly believe that that's a less tenable

00:53:19.120 position than yours which is i want my wife to have had sex with multiple men to compare other men to

00:53:24.620 me if hold on it is oh no no no i'm just saying no no andrew that is what you're saying no it's not

00:53:31.820 well then why would you be against it wait i'm not because women aren't a monolith andrew and women

00:53:37.280 don't all want the same thing so what that's not what we're talking about wait did i say women were

00:53:41.760 monolith or they all want the same thing because or did i say that if you make a comparative analysis

00:53:45.720 for outcome that the outcomes tend to be a lot better for the virgin women because they don't

00:53:51.300 make the comparative analysis i think it is strange to say people ought to have less experience i think

00:53:57.520 don't know what they're missing out on i think they don't know what they're missing out on so so so

00:54:01.240 then by you're right they don't know what so then you want your woman to have previously been

00:54:05.580 fucked a bunch so you don't you wouldn't want her to be with you only because she didn't know what

00:54:09.820 she was missing out on yeah right so okay wait a second all right andrew andrew wait a second let

00:54:16.320 me let me andrew let me let me let me respond to this and let me respond it actually doesn't it

00:54:21.500 actually doesn't matter to me necessarily if she had had sex before that's not what i asked you i said

00:54:26.440 do you want your woman to have been previously fucked by other men so she doesn't know what she's

00:54:30.980 missing out on and you said yeah it's a sure here's the thing i i did this it's just not that

00:54:36.520 important i did this to you it's just not that important to me because you're a clip chimp like

00:54:39.780 what's your channel and you're a clip chimp right you ain't never living that clip down i don't never

00:54:45.660 living that clip down i don't i don't think there is an universal here i don't think for example

00:54:50.880 let me say it was universal i asked you wait wait if you i guess you would be holding all else equal

00:54:56.540 right are you holding all else equal so someone who had a lot of sexual experiences don't run away

00:55:01.460 no i am because i think you are relevant i think this is a relevant distinction andrew if there is

00:55:06.300 someone who had a lot of sex and they are identical in every other character trait and quality and

00:55:11.420 someone who didn't that woman is probably going to know what she wants sexually and that's great

00:55:15.760 okay because then she knows what she likes oh and that's good and you would prefer that kind of

00:55:20.240 woman yeah okay i would okay fair enough so when it comes to promiscuous society then right women

00:55:28.840 who have a lot of sex they have a lot now they have a lot more experiences to really know what they

00:55:34.000 want certain women yes hold on because some women might not want that andrew but how would they know

00:55:38.620 if they haven't done it they don't have the experience i think i actually do think it's probably

00:55:43.500 good for people to have sex before they get married because then you get into a marriage and the sex

00:55:47.560 is terrible and then it can't why are their satisfaction rates so high bro there can be high

00:55:52.560 satisfaction rates no there mostly is yes correct yes correct i'm not saying there's not but i'm

00:55:58.020 saying that for individual people i think it's probably best to have some experience that doesn't

00:56:03.540 mean that every single girl should have sex with as many men as she can well but but you would

00:56:09.680 admit that if a woman's had sex with a thousand guys no that chick really probably knows exactly

00:56:15.360 what she wants she probably knows what she wants but also that's a lot of experience you wouldn't

00:56:20.100 want to keep her away from that right andrew let me ask you this would you have sex with a woman

00:56:24.060 would you be with a woman marry a woman who had sex with two thousand men because she knows what

00:56:28.700 she wants now she can compare you against two thousand men i wouldn't want to marry someone who's a porn

00:56:33.720 star because that's just not like that's not aligned with my like lifestyle i want someone with

00:56:39.840 like the same interest and who's in the interest in the same like career field as me what so i want to

00:56:44.040 marry someone so they could be a porn star and interested in your career i would want them to

00:56:48.440 be interested in that field and working in that field because i want someone who's comparable in

00:56:52.740 that way because i don't want to why do they have to work in the field you're in to be interested

00:56:56.180 well no i think but that's that's something that i value i value someone who's interested in the same

00:57:00.120 things i am and pursues that as a career so you're not as you would never marry a woman who's not the

00:57:04.260 same occupation not not exact occupation but same like a domain of thing for example i wouldn't want to

00:57:09.120 marry someone who's like a grocery store clerk if i'm a lawyer like i don't want that power i don't

00:57:14.600 want that power differential i want us to be power differential i think so a little bit i don't want

00:57:18.600 someone to be entirely dependent on me and my and my what do you mean a power differential do you think

00:57:24.660 i think there can be in terms of income if one person's making a lot more money than the other

00:57:27.940 person i think then there can be a power differential if someone gets into a relationship and doesn't have

00:57:32.180 the ability to get out of that relationship because they're financially tied to that person and i would

00:57:36.820 never want someone to be financially tied to me i see what i'm saying i see so men shouldn't get

00:57:41.840 married that's not what i'm saying i think men should marry women who are on their level no no no

00:57:46.160 no i think men should marry women i don't think you realize what you just said no the divorce

00:57:51.040 initiators you would agree are mostly women right i think so yeah do you do you think that when women

00:57:57.520 initiate these divorces that they just like do it out of pocket or do you think it there was a big

00:58:02.020 build-up they thought about it for a long time i would venture to say the second but i'm sure you're

00:58:06.400 i mean that's not no no no i it is right they think about it for a long time however if they're

00:58:11.320 the ones who are springing the divorce on the husband right he hasn't thought about the divorce

00:58:15.780 for a long time has he i don't think that's necessarily the case it is it is the case wait

00:58:20.840 a second are you is there data to show that yes men get blindsided yes and here's what the data

00:58:25.920 shows right the women initiate it and the men don't want it they don't want the divorce women want

00:58:31.480 the divorce right not the men so they've been thinking about the divorce for a while right

00:58:36.160 so the thing is is that if they can just go and get divorced whenever it is that they want

00:58:41.160 they can just literally go and file paperwork right and the man's not prepared for it they have like an

00:58:47.920 exit strategy they're prepared they've been thinking about it for a long time man not right

00:58:51.500 man hang on man hasn't so so men the wrong woman so men would be hang on bro so the financial

00:58:57.780 dependency aspect here right that man is also financially dependent that his wife's not going

00:59:02.160 to divorce him right i think that hang on right they answer my fucking question and then respond to

00:59:08.220 it i don't understand your question are they partially financially uh dependent every married

00:59:13.540 couple is dependent on it yeah yes every one of them so if she blindsides him with a divorce right

00:59:17.980 then what happens here is when you make the case financial dependency there's financial dependency

00:59:24.820 and that leads to like power dynamics then that would mean women actually have the power dynamic

00:59:29.120 interest here because if they can initiate divorce whenever they want and devastate a man financially

00:59:33.940 so can men aren't okay but they can't they descriptively aren't then why aren't they they

00:59:38.880 because they want to stay married they don't think they're not looking for an exit strategy women

00:59:43.320 are plotting an exit strategy so men get blindsided with this bro i think that i think that women

00:59:48.680 who blindside someone with a divorce and it's not a conversation of i'm not happy with this i'm not happy

00:59:54.100 you're not you know meeting x y or z needs i feel like you're not communicating with me

00:59:57.860 i maybe there's infidelity involved then i think that if if she doesn't talk about any of that and

01:00:04.260 then just suddenly no she can talk about all of that but it's still blind so here's the thing here's

01:00:08.020 here's the problem with this right is like you seem to want to take human nature out of the human

01:00:12.320 aspect here if you know that you're going to leave your significant other right are you going to like

01:00:17.460 try to leverage it so that they have the best chance for custody and they have the best chance

01:00:22.920 for financial security are you going to leverage things the best possible way for yourself no

01:00:28.240 actually the first one and that's what my dad did in the divorce from my stepmom your dad yes i think

01:00:33.140 it was a really rational reasonable man yes i think i think it was i think it was a very good thing of

01:00:37.740 him to do he didn't leave my stepmom completely like that was awful good of him but do you agree

01:00:42.500 with me that in within human nature if you know that you're going to exit you know that you're leaving

01:00:47.620 right just like with a job aren't you going to try to make no way job is different aren't you going to try

01:00:52.060 to make the best conditionals possible for the exit so that you're as financially set as possible

01:00:58.160 putting in your two weeks is not the same thing as signing no it's not putting in two weeks here's

01:01:01.900 what you do when you change a job you don't put in your two weeks whatever you quit you've already

01:01:05.700 arranged a job for six fucking months okay before you ever put in your two weeks still not the same

01:01:11.520 because you don't have it's not you don't have obligations to that individual who you're working

01:01:16.720 for in terms of emotional security you have you have obligations to them you can quit a job yeah

01:01:20.980 i know but you still made an you can quit a marriage but she still made a fucking agreement like you did

01:01:24.660 with your job sure and i think people in marriages have a responsibility to care for the other person

01:01:30.940 they have a duty in a way they have a duty yeah absolutely i think i think that i think everyone

01:01:35.000 has a duty i just don't think the duties are gender specific oh they're not no i don't think they

01:01:40.480 are they're not okay so let's i guess we can dive into that next this is fucking hilarious so let's

01:01:46.660 dive into the idea of uh of gender itself okay okay how many would you say there are an infinite

01:01:53.580 number i don't know man i don't i have no clue you have no clue how many there are no how many names

01:02:00.480 are there in the world andrew do you consider every name a gender no but i think they're a relevant

01:02:05.140 category of identification so yeah well okay there's a relevant category do you do you understand

01:02:12.280 like a label a label versus a descriptor sure but i think i think there's a lot of overlap between the

01:02:21.440 two no there's not really a lot of overlap between the two one an empty label is my name is andrew do

01:02:27.920 you agree with me my name is andrew sure okay do you agree with me that there could be many andrews

01:02:32.340 sitting at the table with me right now sure so andrew doesn't describe anything about me it's a

01:02:36.460 label right there are certain connotations with it for example for example i would assume that you're

01:02:40.520 a man i would assume that that's largely an american name doesn't determine that but it's associated

01:02:45.220 with no it's not even associated with it so let's take something like andy take something like andy then

01:02:50.240 yeah then we wouldn't know okay so it's just an empty label right empty is weird yeah okay yeah it's

01:02:56.100 just an empty label so but if i were to say man or male that is a descriptor which is trying to point

01:03:04.560 at something specific it's not an empty label yeah yeah so what is a man and what is a woman start with

01:03:11.520 what a woman is sure so i think largely and i'm i claim this with my debate with jim bob and i'll claim

01:03:16.520 it with you i'm not super well versed in like gender ideology or things of that nature so i don't

01:03:23.120 have comprehensive definitions or sets of necessary and sufficient conditions that must be met in order

01:03:28.500 for someone to be in one category so if we're talking about for example woman and man there are

01:03:32.700 biological definitions of this thing if you look in the dictionary this is the reason why there's

01:03:36.220 multiple definitions yeah so what's a woman dude okay so i think a biological definition could be

01:03:40.680 something like an adult human female okay but i do think there are can be social definitions of woman

01:03:45.400 of someone who has a desire to be in accordance with a particular set of social and cultural norms

01:03:50.160 that are typically associated with the female sex okay so if a person did not have those norms but

01:03:55.220 identified themselves as a woman would you call them that so what did i just say answer my question

01:03:58.700 no but what did i say before you're asking a question that shows that you didn't listen to

01:04:02.160 what i said okay in fact i'll steal man it just to make sure that i got it correct you think that

01:04:06.480 there are scientific definitions which we can associate to male and female you gave an example the

01:04:10.620 example for female was adult human or i'm sorry for woman adult human female from the scientific end you

01:04:16.080 agree with that portion so far yeah okay you did miss something at the beginning then when we go

01:04:20.540 then we go into gender you say what gender is is it's a series of traits and cultural and social

01:04:26.100 like social norms in which we would attribute to somebody which would then make them either woman or

01:04:32.180 man so first you missed the first part that i said which i said that i don't think there is a

01:04:37.560 comprehensive set of necessary and sufficient conditions that can be given for man or woman there's going

01:04:44.180 to be things that lie outside of there and it's really actually that's perfect can we stop that

01:04:48.500 hard to stop right there okay since there's since you're confused as to how many necessary conditions

01:04:54.100 there would be then it would be just a descriptor or a self-id right no not necessarily then what else

01:04:59.240 would it be i think i'm not sure i i think you're not sure you're not sure bro what else would it be

01:05:06.920 besides a self-id self-id other people recognizing it if people don't other people are recognizing it

01:05:12.900 based on the scientific definition some people are they conflate it with the scientific definition

01:05:17.340 some people are also with social though yeah but definitely do you know someone's chromosomes

01:05:20.660 great would you call brian if brian looked exactly like he looks right this second but said that he's

01:05:28.020 a woman right and you wanted to use she her pronouns i don't really give a shit yeah you would agree that

01:05:32.260 he is then yeah right sure okay so then a woman would have to be anybody who identifies as a woman

01:05:40.320 well no because that would be a circular definition so then tell me what it is then if you agree that

01:05:44.580 brian can be a woman right now by saying he is i think he can be a woman in the social sense of it

01:05:49.460 but i don't think he can be a woman how can he be a woman in the social sense of it because there's not

01:05:53.360 a set of necessary and sufficient conditions then it would just be self-id just because there is

01:05:58.380 ambiguity around boundaries doesn't mean the categories don't exist oh no hang on hang on i agree

01:06:04.080 unless we have a category to point to which we do so we have a category man woman which points to

01:06:08.700 male female okay right so those categories do exist when we're talking about ambiguity here

01:06:13.340 you're creating the ambiguity by just failing to admit that you just believe it's a self-id

01:06:18.460 i don't necessarily think it is then tell me what it is i think it's a combination of someone

01:06:23.300 identifying as and them being recognized by other people in this society so if brian said he was a

01:06:28.360 woman right now full honesty right now i don't really think i would think he was a woman you would

01:06:32.900 think he was no i wouldn't think he was you wouldn't think he was because i think most people

01:06:36.100 wouldn't recognize him as such and i do think that if most people in this society don't recognize

01:06:40.040 someone as a woman even if they identify as a woman then for a lot of functional purposes they

01:06:44.420 aren't treated as a woman and they aren't so even if their self-id is that way it's not going to match

01:06:49.520 up to the treatment that they're going to have i see so you wouldn't believe brian if he said he was

01:06:52.600 a woman right now no probably not not probably not i might use i might use she her pronouns if brian

01:06:58.100 wanted to use that information would you treat brian like a woman i don't think there is a proper way

01:07:02.560 to treat a man or treat a woman so i would treat brian like a human being the same way i would

01:07:06.220 treat men and treat women okay so but you would use his his pronouns sure okay and you would use

01:07:12.700 those pronouns as a matter of respect that yeah he said he's a woman well yeah i just don't want to

01:07:17.500 be an asshole like i don't okay i don't that's just being a jerk i i think intentionally misgendering

01:07:22.320 someone like i don't because yeah it's yeah i'm really just not really kind of satisfied here i'm

01:07:27.300 sorry i want to be so that we can move into the proper gender roles for society but if we can't

01:07:32.880 really nail down what a woman is i'm not sure how we're supposed to nail down how men and women are

01:07:37.900 supposed to function with each other in intersexual dynamics or how they're supposed to interact with

01:07:43.640 each other in social dynamics i'm not really sure that we can even get to that part unless we nail

01:07:49.300 down what even a man and a woman is so i mean we've nailed it down largely biologically no we haven't

01:07:55.100 well we haven't nailed down what your definition of these things are i don't so here's the thing is

01:08:00.160 you're gonna you you're going to rigidly categorize men and women into male and female and then say

01:08:05.320 that certain gender roles follow from that they do i'm basically saying that i don't think those

01:08:10.000 gender yeah that's great but you won't nail down what a man and a woman even is because i don't

01:08:13.920 think you can give a comprehensive well then how can you make social prescriptions for what they ought

01:08:17.420 to not do what's a chair so what's this is this is interesting right what is a chair a chair

01:08:23.280 just like sports team you could use that same analogy this is one of the yeah yeah it's the

01:08:27.640 same thing i'm explaining it right and i'll answer the question i'll give you the descriptor of what a

01:08:31.720 chair is okay right my proprietary definition of a chair is um that it has it's a thing you sit on

01:08:38.380 that has like four standing legs and a cushion and and things like this right they have a beanbag chair

01:08:43.040 but yeah yeah but here's what's interesting right about this where i'm trying to point to

01:08:48.340 something just like with sports teams if i say there's a sports team right or a sports fan sorry

01:08:54.680 sports fan um you could say what is a sports fan right is it just an empty label no it's really not

01:09:01.800 you would assume that there's things that come with it like hang on empty labels hang on like you would

01:09:06.400 assume for a second that they support the team they support this they support that right when i give a

01:09:13.060 definition of a chair while it is true that there can be a very comprehensive descriptive definition

01:09:18.700 of a chair i'm actually not wrong about my definition of chair and you're not wrong about

01:09:23.900 your definition of chair either when you say beanbag chair right because you're still we're still trying

01:09:28.960 to point to the same idea of what a chair is in this case we're not pointing to the same idea of what

01:09:35.320 a woman or a man is sure i don't necessarily think so and i think that the social definition

01:09:40.080 there are a lot of people who ascribe to that and when people think of woman and think of man

01:09:44.420 they do think of traditional woman and traditional they think of pussies and dicks dude i don't

01:09:48.820 necessarily think so dude yeah i think when they when you would make an association of man versus woman

01:09:54.340 right well if somebody's told asked a person what is the thing that you would think of if a person

01:10:01.040 was naked that would identify them immediately as a man or a woman what do you think they would say

01:10:05.440 naked is different what do you think they would say sure andrew what would they say if their genitals

01:10:10.440 are out they're going to point out their genitals yeah yeah because are most people why do you think

01:10:14.680 they're going to point out their genitals are most people's genitals out a long time bro what does

01:10:19.040 that have to do with anything because if someone were to ask me what do i associate with womanhood

01:10:22.800 i would say a lot of things that are associated with femininity longer hair wearing certain type

01:10:28.000 of clothing things fashion fashion to me that fashion wait longer hair hold on in a sense i'm

01:10:34.880 not saying that that's a comprehensive definition because it doesn't even point to it i'm saying for

01:10:39.660 me yeah those are things that i value and find attractive in women okay when i'm saying woman or

01:10:46.700 man i'm giving a descriptor which is trying to point to something yes right point to it you're trying to

01:10:55.160 say that there's two categories that man and woman is not just a biological categorization but there's

01:11:01.560 a social categorization and they do it here but when you say that it's not a comprehensive social

01:11:05.880 categorization right i can what else could it be besides self-idee what else could it be i don't

01:11:11.900 think it has to be one or the other andrew there's ambiguity and definitions like i don't if someone says

01:11:16.040 i'm a woman and like if people say they're not like what well first of all there's not ambiguity in

01:11:20.500 all definitions but second we're butting heads but second but secondly definitions also operate they

01:11:25.700 have definite ends they have definite ends what is the definite end what are the things which are

01:11:30.460 the undercurrent of the definition that they're pointing to they're saying like a chair right you

01:11:36.240 might have like little things under the definition of a chair that point to things you sit on right

01:11:41.700 things that you relax on things like this yes that's what's doing all the heavy lifting for the

01:11:46.460 word yes what's doing all the heavy lifting for the word man and woman what is it i think it can be

01:11:51.740 in his social roles no it's sex it's a hundred percent sex doing the heavy lifting for man and woman

01:11:57.480 dude give me a break i don't necessarily okay this is demonstrated all of the definitions all of the

01:12:02.220 things which support the definitions of man and woman all of them are pointing to sex literally all

01:12:08.120 of them okay like basically every one of them sure if you think reproduction right if you even

01:12:13.480 even with when it comes to woman right uh adult human female if you look up the definition of

01:12:19.300 female uh especially human female it says like one uh a member of the like the human race that which

01:12:27.120 is associated with reproduction right okay it's literally utilizing the reproductive categorization

01:12:33.660 of genitalia right well there's genitalia i mean there's it's genitalia how do they get pregnant

01:12:38.520 bro difference between the reproductive system how do they get pregnant i'm not saying it doesn't

01:12:42.540 involve genitalia of course it does so all of it is all of it is being held up by sex all of it

01:12:48.660 dude okay if someone doesn't have the internal reproductive organs but has a vagina do you think

01:12:54.320 they're a woman of course and i can even dive into that too so the monolithic argument for gender is

01:12:59.600 my favorite one um i wouldn't say that a man who was castrated right through no fault of his own

01:13:05.100 he was in a terrific accident his the genitals were ripped off of course he's still a man but here's why

01:13:10.460 because people only develop around two pathways that's it there's no third sex there's never going

01:13:15.980 to be a third sex nobody alive has ever been able to impregnate themselves not even chimeras

01:13:21.100 because of that there's only two reproductive pathways available period you're still a woman

01:13:27.160 even if you don't have a uterus your reproductive pathway was still developed to that of a woman

01:13:31.980 to that of a female it didn't develop it did develop well a lot of these people who have this

01:13:37.120 condition complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are those who have xy chromosomes and develop along

01:13:43.040 a male path no they develop that even if you have xxy right or you have there are actually men who just

01:13:50.020 have xx but their reproductive pathway can only be one of two they can only develop along two

01:13:55.960 reproductive pathways period regardless of chromosomes and that's every human being who exists

01:14:00.940 even ones who have the nature of their like um the nature of them is ambiguous right the ambiguity

01:14:09.060 around genitalia and things like this are ambiguous they still can only go down one one phenotypical

01:14:14.580 pathway period okay and genotypical so if sex is doing all of the heavy lifting i think that it is fine

01:14:21.420 for us to point at man and woman and say a man right is someone who developed along the reproductive pathway

01:14:28.400 pathway for the production of small gametes and woman for ova sure that's required they have a

01:14:34.700 uterus they still develop down that pathway right and yeah that that absolutely is a biological

01:14:38.940 definition but we use we use those words in other ways right no we don't we don't when we say

01:14:42.900 when we say well then how come we can say a woman is manly and the sentence makes sense because

01:14:47.720 we're not pointing to masculine or feminine virtues agreed so but we use those terms to refer to

01:14:54.600 social phenomena right uh well no no not always actually the most most of the time right when

01:15:01.020 you're doing that uh there is times when this is done i agree with you where you're like oh that that

01:15:06.440 chick is or you're nagging me like a woman yeah right how many people in the comments right now do

01:15:10.640 you think but the whole but yeah but the whole point of that right is to say that like you're weaker

01:15:15.520 than me or this or that you're still actually associating this with the sex you're still associating

01:15:20.940 it with the fact that that that's the weaker sex or that's the more dominant sex basically all of

01:15:26.380 those social interactions still revolve around the that same idea sure i haven't denied that yeah i

01:15:32.100 mean so they're always pointing in other words all extremes for gender are always actually only

01:15:37.360 pointing to two things male female that's it so if that's the case when we're talking about social

01:15:42.720 roles in society men and women male female are completely different i mean totally

01:15:50.760 different across the board we're humans true right but everything from our development

01:15:55.580 developmental pathway for reproduction right to our physical characteristics are completely

01:16:01.260 different why in the world would you prescribe a society which didn't bank on the ideas of that

01:16:06.880 and understand that if we are to push the very things which combine our physiology with the social

01:16:13.180 status of people creates a better society for instance would you prescribe like if we're talking

01:16:19.180 about the military would you prescribe that uh that we had more women in the military than men

01:16:23.740 more women than men in the military largely probably not because they don't meet the same standards and

01:16:29.040 i'm not denying that yeah of course so then a failing of courage of men considering that they have

01:16:34.940 to take on that role that dominant hang on that dominant but they have to right not no no no they

01:16:40.340 always have not it but not no man is obligated to join the military therefore it's not yeah they are

01:16:45.520 they can be drafted okay i think i don't agree with the draft it doesn't matter if you agree with it

01:16:49.160 or not they can descriptively be drafted and women can't and that's and that's unjust that's unjust

01:16:53.580 yes okay so there shouldn't be a draft so what about police police officers police force you can be

01:16:58.760 deputized yeah i think that's no that's unjust too uh you can be compelled into a posse that's unjust

01:17:06.040 defined sorry compelled into a posse just like uh just like you can be compelled into jury duty right

01:17:12.880 sure jury duty i think it's a little bit different because you're not putting yourself in as much

01:17:17.020 harm's way i don't think that anyone should be conscripted okay into into being a police officer

01:17:21.580 or being a or being that because of course there are there's okay there's always dangers there's

01:17:26.360 always dangers associated with all of this including jury duty right and there's going to be a threshold

01:17:30.340 right okay which is what we don't know exactly of course i don't have to point wait i don't have

01:17:34.980 to point to an exact point to say that there is a difference between sitting on a jury duty

01:17:39.460 and having a gun on you you do if you say that you do if you say that the consistency of the

01:17:44.620 ideology is that you don't believe in this thing because it can put you in harm's way

01:17:48.580 but you but this thing also puts you in harm's way significant harm what do you say what okay so

01:17:53.800 fine okay yeah yeah of course i'm not arguing there's not a threshold but not just that i'm not

01:17:58.400 arguing there's not a threshold let's start with the titanic so should the men have given up

01:18:02.960 the lifeboats to the women men giving up the lifeboats to the women and the children um if they

01:18:08.180 were largely stronger than yes however if they wait a second if there was a disabled man if there

01:18:13.220 was a man who for some reason was weaker then i think then yeah then he should have gone with those

01:18:18.260 people so it's a strong versus weak not necessarily along sexed lines there was a lot of overlap there

01:18:25.400 but it's not necessary whoa okay so so didn't make sure i got this right though you agree with me

01:18:32.520 that the average man is many times stronger than the average woman largely in terms like upper body

01:18:38.080 strength or something like that yeah no just well no lower body too lower body yes because it would

01:18:42.840 depend what you mean by strength because for example like endurance and things of that nature

01:18:46.400 women in certain cases are stronger what did i say average is certain cases now well i think that

01:18:52.400 women in general are better at endurance running i would have to look more into it i think in certain

01:18:57.180 no okay on average they're not they're not better at anything physical than men nothing

01:19:01.240 literally nothing when you say what's really funny about this too is like when you say well what about

01:19:06.820 lower body it is true that proportionally women have stronger lower bodies than men right for women

01:19:14.380 proportionally that's true women still have much stronger lower bodies than women it's just that

01:19:20.860 proportional to the size of men i'm not arguing that women are physically stronger yeah so then if that's

01:19:25.120 the case you you are aren't you creating a bias in society by saying that the strong right should be

01:19:32.620 uh necessarily like giving up their spots for the week when you agree with me that on average men are

01:19:38.840 going to be much stronger than on average women i don't think it's a bias i think it's people who have

01:19:43.720 certain advantages should use those advantages to help those who are less well off okay be an example

01:19:48.840 so that way how would that not disproportionately affect men it would disproportionately affect men i'm not

01:19:53.440 saying it so you're a mis well okay that's not that's not misandering come on how the fuck is that

01:19:57.680 misandering okay so why should they do that why should they do that yeah i already said because people

01:20:02.960 should protect those who are weaker than them once again claim that i'm stipulating if you disagree

01:20:09.200 and don't think those who are stronger should use that to protect those who are less strong

01:20:14.360 then i guess this doesn't follow but i think that's a pretty strong intuition that most people hold

01:20:19.580 let's make sure that we that you hold this intuition then okay yeah so would you consider

01:20:24.860 like a 13 year old boy to be a child yes okay do you agree with me that 13 year old boys can be

01:20:30.940 about as strong as an average woman sure i would depend i'm not sure so should 13 year old boys give

01:20:36.740 up their seats in the lifeboat for women maybe it's a case case by case dependent basis i think you

01:20:42.520 should try to save women and children because the 13 year old give up their spot in the lifeboat for a

01:20:47.640 70 year old woman um no because i think there's a long well i think there's a longer lifespan wait

01:20:53.240 andrew this is what you did yeah there we go no this is what i'm gonna i'm gonna explain what you

01:20:56.660 did you took one categorization that i made and general prescription yeah i'm sorry it's not

01:21:01.300 consistent those who are stronger should generally protect those who are weaker that's what i said

01:21:06.240 and you're saying so in every single case where there's someone who's stronger they should protect

01:21:11.180 someone who's weaker over overriding you didn't say generally i done did i not say generally you

01:21:16.100 know no you actually just said that stronger people should protect weaker people okay then i meant that

01:21:20.400 in the general sense i'm sorry for not so general so generally speaking then men are going to be

01:21:24.900 disadvantaged in society under your view i don't think they're going to be disadvantaged because they

01:21:29.400 have the advantage of more strength so them using that strength to protect others you're prescribing

01:21:34.820 a duty you haven't actually told me why it is so for instance do you agree that men and women's

01:21:39.400 lives are equally valuable equally valuable yeah okay then why the fuck would you say that they

01:21:44.700 should give up their spots in the lifeboat because they're stronger equally valuable because i think

01:21:48.740 if we're talking about a boat sinking i think most men would probably be better able to swim longer

01:21:54.940 be able to in the icy fucking waters of the fucking are you serious the icy waters of the atlantic

01:22:01.120 ocean they're gonna have a better fighting chance against the sharks like what are you talking

01:22:05.320 what wait hold on andrew come on bro dude this is fucking crazy oh there were andrew there are are

01:22:11.040 you not are you not agreeing with me uh-huh who do you think would survive longer uh-huh in the icy

01:22:17.240 water i don't i think you're talking about seconds or minutes perhaps okay and if there were rescue

01:22:23.080 boats going by uh-huh there's not rescue boats there wasn't rescue boats going i'm glad we're not in

01:22:28.080 that situation yeah but i'm asking about that situation you said they should give up their spots sure on

01:22:33.360 the titanic that women get the lifeboats because the men are stronger even though their lives are

01:22:37.820 both equally valuable why i think that some men should do that absolutely why why because you

01:22:45.460 should want to protect those who are weaker than why though why though if it's just a matter of you

01:22:50.700 saying because you're stronger then you switch what you're doing is switching your case use here which

01:22:55.320 is fucking it's it's equivocation it's pissing me off because it's not it's not even genuine you're

01:23:00.780 making the uh equivocal case that wait a second right men generally are stronger than women so

01:23:06.760 therefore should protect them because generally stronger people should protect weaker people yes

01:23:10.680 okay that follows in that aspect you're a bit stronger right yes you have some sort of like

01:23:15.440 duty or obligation to protect those weaker than you but when you're in a situation like the fucking

01:23:19.920 titanic right where your strength differential doesn't fucking matter at all okay right you still

01:23:26.900 prescribed that the women get the lifeboats bro and i need you to tell me why why should they get

01:23:31.980 the lifeboats i think i am then expressing an intuition based on that case that is based on the

01:23:38.940 fact that men are generally stronger than women so maybe how is that helpful hold on maybe in this case

01:23:43.800 then they shouldn't because this case doesn't involve strength or anything like that so in this case

01:23:50.980 then maybe not in the titanic in that case then yeah maybe not okay so you're retracting that

01:23:55.860 yeah okay so you're gonna retract that women i'll retract the claim for for for they should give it up

01:24:01.600 for women maybe not children though because children would have a longer lifespan ahead of them

01:24:05.540 and men and women's lives i would agree are roughly equal but you know you can argue that children's

01:24:10.200 lives many people would continue consider them more valuable because they have a longer life to live

01:24:14.200 okay so then men don't have an obligation to sacrifice their lives for women

01:24:17.980 in the no okay necessarily got it they don't i don't i don't i don't think no i don't think

01:24:23.100 each individual man i think society has an obligation to protect those who are weaker

01:24:27.440 but i think that no individual person should be compelled to risk or like well not i didn't say

01:24:34.060 compelled i asked about duty that wouldn't be like a foreign repellence no i don't think men have

01:24:39.720 that duty no they don't have that duty men in general no those who are stronger not to die for

01:24:44.860 other people necessarily so you don't think that there's a social obligation inside of society

01:24:49.940 which shames men if they don't protect women who are physically weaker than them i think i think

01:24:54.420 there is but the thing is also is i think a man is much less likely to die than a woman in those

01:24:59.380 situations so what so then it's much but he's much more likely to be shamed for not interjecting

01:25:04.860 himself in the situation which would mean that he actually would be more likely to die than the

01:25:08.860 women because he's stronger yeah but that actually would increase his risk of death over women

01:25:13.980 and the average man would increase the risk of death if they're interjecting more than women

01:25:18.180 yeah sure what's your point is that correct yes okay so then you're you're assisting with a bias

01:25:23.440 against men no with a social shame of men do you think that men because of the stronger sex

01:25:27.760 should interject on the behalf of people who are weaker than them if they are stronger if they're

01:25:32.100 strong and on average they're going to be yes then they then what you're doing is interjecting them

01:25:36.740 into significant amounts of danger over the weaker sex it's not on the basis that they're men it's on

01:25:42.140 the basis that they're stronger yes but the bias selection is still going to apply to men so it

01:25:46.040 would apply so are you endorsing disparate impact theory here i'm just really what is disparate

01:25:50.780 impact the idea that if something overwhelmingly affects a group and therefore it ought to be

01:25:55.180 considered um like i guess prejudice or harm against that group so for example if a policy

01:26:01.000 was passed and it overwhelmingly disproportionately affected a racial minority or any minority regardless

01:26:06.180 of the intent no i would endorse that but what i will say is that this is the type of

01:26:09.620 different impact here's why here's the distinction right do you agree with me that people can hide

01:26:15.120 their true intentions towards a thing right by um by kind of equivocating uh based on their

01:26:21.980 intention so for instance if i said look okay um this isn't a bias against midgets but i just think

01:26:29.580 that people who are three feet and below shouldn't work in hollywood right i'm not biased against midgets

01:26:35.040 though right i'm universally applying that standard to all people but who does it disproportionately

01:26:39.340 affect the most affect them but now now hang on if i now hang on now hang on now if i held a bias

01:26:44.820 a secret bias against midgets i really fucking hated them right would that be a really good way

01:26:51.780 for me to enact my will my hatred towards those midgets by making that universal claim that uh all

01:27:01.040 people three feet and under shouldn't work in hollywood sure but andrew but what would the benefit be

01:27:07.540 of banning those people from i'm just saying things like they can't get hurt as easy

01:27:11.920 can't get yeah people who are five feet and or above they just they don't get hurt as easy as people

01:27:16.860 who are three feet and below then especially when you're on hollywood sets and things like that you

01:27:20.300 were making then standards that were i mean we have this do you think it's prejudice it would universally

01:27:24.140 apply to all people okay then do you think it's prejudicial that we hate children because what i'm

01:27:29.500 saying because we have height limitations on rides roller coasters hang on hang on is that

01:27:33.120 i'm not making the claim that you can't make uh even universalized prescriptions based on safety

01:27:38.280 i'm asking a specific and narrow question which is that if i hated midgets would it not then follow

01:27:44.620 that if i was making prescriptions right that seemingly on their face were a bit absurd hang on

01:27:50.500 seemingly a bit on their face absurd right but did universalize them by saying it's for all people

01:27:56.220 but the inaction of that really was going to disproportionately affect midgets that it might stand to reason

01:28:01.220 that i had some bias against midgets do you think the now hang on i'm just saying this is conditional

01:28:07.060 let me look at the camera too it's just as conditional but don't you think that if i passed legislation

01:28:14.160 which was disproportionately affect only one group right uh but i what i was doing it as a universal claim

01:28:22.500 for all right that people might think my motivations were to try to like disproportionately affect that group

01:28:29.700 don't you think that follows it could be but it's not necessarily i don't think we think men is it

01:28:34.820 interesting though that you endorse feminism while at the same time having a bias against men because

01:28:38.540 they're stronger i don't have a bias against men sure sounds like you don't i think that those i

01:28:42.940 already said this i think those who are stronger regardless of sex should protect those who are weaker

01:28:47.540 yeah but again here's here's the problem when you claim that i'm a feminist right which you have

01:28:54.180 and that you're here to defend feminism isn't it interesting that part of this uh you know kind

01:29:01.660 of like a prescription for society based around feminism is that it just so happens that men need

01:29:08.180 to of course you don't mean men you just mean stronger people but men have to interject and put

01:29:13.400 themselves in harm's way more than women do and you happen to be a feminist you don't think people are

01:29:18.880 going to put two and two together and think that well perhaps you have a bit of bias towards men

01:29:24.240 bias towards men or against men yeah no i don't necessarily think that follows at all okay why not

01:29:30.140 because i don't think that it means that you hate someone if you think that because i didn't say hey

01:29:34.480 did i say hey fine bias fine andrew i don't think that you're fine andrew i don't i don't i don't i

01:29:40.100 don't think that you're biased against of someone or a group of people if you think because

01:29:45.060 they have advantages they should use them to the less well off okay do you think it would

01:29:49.760 do you think that like taxing the wealthy is like a bias against rich people i think it shows i think

01:29:55.120 it can be so but but do you think it necessarily is i didn't never said anything about okay any of

01:29:59.940 this being necessarily the case okay so hang on hang on it's not necessarily fine okay yeah i agree

01:30:04.660 what i said was that people can hide the motive and i do think by the way using this example of the

01:30:09.480 wealthy that oftentimes progressives do fucking hate the wealthy and blame them for problems inside

01:30:14.580 society because they think they're selfish and want to punish them they want to punish them

01:30:19.560 some people might do that i'm not denying that yeah and so so the thing is it's like yeah i am in

01:30:24.760 full agreement with you that wanting so it sounds to me to punish people is a bad reason for doing

01:30:28.940 that so what reward okay so uh for this duty that is going to disproportionately affect men but isn't

01:30:35.580 meant to target men just people who are stronger what do they get out of this where do they get out

01:30:40.460 i don't think that duties um necessitate rewards for example i don't think we should reward people

01:30:48.900 for like using their strength to benefit others i just think that's something that you ought to do

01:30:54.440 like you know what i mean it's like you shouldn't beat your wife it's like i didn't beat my wife today

01:30:58.200 you should give me more money it's like of course not isn't a draft uh duty which necessarily benefits

01:31:03.380 others based on strength i don't agree with the draft because it's because it's compulsory

01:31:08.140 yeah so is this duty though it's compulsory right people ought to do what you said isn't that a

01:31:14.260 compulsion sure i'm not wait 100 i'm not but that's a legal compulsion i'm not saying that there

01:31:19.720 shouldn't be general societal like pushes towards certain things but i don't think it should be legally

01:31:24.920 compelled in which you go to jail or are killed for not joining the draft but yeah absolutely i think

01:31:29.360 that if society is on the brink of collapse or something like that those who are stronger should

01:31:34.240 step up and try to defend that equal female duty to this be there's not an equal female duty and i've

01:31:39.460 had this before you had the same conversation there is not a equal female there's not equal duty for

01:31:44.640 those who are who would what is there any duty that women have at all yeah i think so same same duties

01:31:49.720 that men would have in terms of kindness towards others being respectful towards others those aren't

01:31:54.080 wanting to lift people up i think it is no it's not a duty to be kind and respectful we've been

01:31:57.460 disrespectful this whole time where's your kindness and duty wait i think people should be

01:32:01.380 okay andrew i'm sorry that i wasn't specific enough in saying that you should be generally kind i don't

01:32:07.300 think that someone hold on andrew fine because wait wait when i say people have a duty to be kind

01:32:12.940 what you interpreted that as incorrectly is you have to be kind all the time which is not true okay so

01:32:18.660 you just generally think people should be kind but you did say that being kind in general is a good

01:32:23.280 thing yeah but the the strong person the the strong ought to protect the weak sure ought are

01:32:30.020 they always protecting the weak no but you think they always should if that situation arises yes so

01:32:35.960 that would be always yes yes so that's a monolithic statement for an ought but it's interesting how you

01:32:41.740 move between the monolithic situation of your ought when it comes to that but with the second we get to

01:32:48.260 women suddenly they don't have any of those monolithic oughts that's very strange what monolithic

01:32:54.100 ought do women have they don't because they're not stronger than men like what what other monolithic

01:32:58.740 well there's one thing they can do men can't what is it produce andrew yeah how come there's that's not

01:33:03.260 a monolithic ought because they don't they should not have to have children why because we can we can

01:33:08.900 have a society where people voluntarily have children without forcing them to do so we can increase

01:33:14.860 we can increase we can have a society where men don't voluntarily assist anybody with their strength

01:33:19.500 what do you mean we can have a society where no one voluntarily does that but i think we can

01:33:23.100 always use incentive structures to get to that yeah but you said that they ought if you if you agree

01:33:28.140 with me that there can be a society in which men are not interceding on behalf of the weaker sex

01:33:32.380 in this case women or children right why ought they do that why ought they do what why ought they

01:33:37.060 do that if protect protect yes if women have no repellence for duties for anything they ought to do so hold

01:33:42.700 on i don't think that you should protect other people because you think you're owed something

01:33:46.780 in return that's the biggest problem here i don't think men should protect women because like oh my

01:33:51.500 god i saved you now you have to bear my children i don't think that's how these things work nobody

01:33:56.460 nobody made that conflation that because you saved a woman they'd now have to have your children

01:34:00.220 but however there's a computer what i'm saying i saved your life therefore women women in general

01:34:05.580 have an obligation to have children monolithic ought i'm even willing to be super charitable here

01:34:10.540 and say that you didn't mean every single time but like in most cases it is the case that men are

01:34:16.540 stronger than women and so it should intercede on their behalf right sure right that would be

01:34:21.420 pretty charitable of me to say right largely okay so then if it's the case that women are the only ones

01:34:27.100 who can have children right i want you to grant me the same charitability and say you know what

01:34:32.940 i'm not saying that all of them ought to have children okay but we should make a prescription that

01:34:38.460 that they should be moving towards the idea of having children that that's really good for

01:34:43.740 society prescriptively and that generally speaking they have a duty to do it i think yeah

01:34:49.020 i think it's a good thing when people have children so generally speaking women have a duty

01:34:53.740 to have children i think that society has an obligation to keep its population growing generally

01:34:59.180 speaking do women have a duty to have children yeah men and women okay great so then women generally

01:35:05.900 at least have a duty to have kids i think that individual women are not subject to this because

01:35:13.180 andrew we can have a god you keep changing your position i'm gonna have a smoke while brian let's

01:35:17.180 chat it all right all right we're gonna read a couple chats guys just during the break guys if you're

01:35:25.980 enjoying the stream kindly like the video and we're gonna let a chat in guys now's a good time if you

01:35:33.100 want to get a chat in we have a hundred dollar tts that's streamlabs.com slash whatever if you

01:35:39.020 want to get it in also you can support the show without any of these platforms like youtube stream

01:35:43.500 labs taking their cut venmo cash app what we are whatever pod on both we've got colin on cash app

01:35:49.980 think for the 10 and then laura think for the five also on cash app and we're gonna let this chat in

01:35:56.380 here uh all right bobby thank you man oh i think the audio is muted can you uh check at the top hit

01:36:03.500 the unmute button it's vibrating but plugged before he came on the shop because it's about let me re-trigger

01:36:10.060 let me not screw this guy over sorry bobby one sec our audio was muted there oh you good or

01:36:17.740 you know that hit last night oh okay all right one sec guys should be coming in back here soon

01:36:28.060 got bobby there it is thank you bobby donated 100 thank you this male feminist better have charged

01:36:35.500 his vibrating but plug before he came on the shop because it's about to be a long and slow painful

01:36:40.780 annihilation by andrew someone call femboy an ambulance

01:36:49.900 damn um do you want to respond to bobby on that one or no okay i can respond to just

01:36:56.220 blatant insults if someone has a question then i'm happy to answer oh it's bobby donated 100

01:37:02.540 all right thank you bobby appreciate it uh i do know that we have some chats here no we're all cut

01:37:08.860 up on chats guys go to twitch if you can pull that up mary guys go to twitch.tv slash whatever

01:37:15.660 drop let's say fall on the prime sub andrew just stepped away briefly to uh have a quick smoke so

01:37:21.580 guys go to twitch.tv slash whatever oliver help me give these people a little bit of a shout out here

01:37:26.780 we got a logic thank you for the follow stiff thank you for the follow director dc thank you for the

01:37:31.180 follow what help me shout the people you do your show oh i'll do it all right you do your show brian

01:37:37.260 i'm trying to i'm not announcing your well all right fair enough contracts killer thank for the

01:37:43.500 follow edgar thank for the follow guys it's been 48 minutes since we got a tier one uh an hour since

01:37:50.540 we've had a prime sub i think it's bugged boys chat chat if you're watching on youtube watching on twitch

01:37:55.580 i think it's bugged boys can you guys just test out check if you have a little prime sub in the chat

01:38:01.420 but grumbo thank for the prime girgens thank for the prime crossy thank for the prime lynn thank for

01:38:06.940 the tier one really appreciate it uh guys if you have amazon prime you can link it to your twitch it's

01:38:11.980 a quick free easy way to support the show every single month little twitch prime in the chat uh check

01:38:19.100 it out guys appreciate it uh all right and i'll shout you guys out if you send anything through we

01:38:23.500 do have andrew back you guys would you guys like a shot of an energy drink or something yeah can we

01:38:30.700 get andrew a beer oliver would you like i'm good we got strawberry lemonade i'm chilling for now i

01:38:35.500 could use a little bit more water but can we get more water for oliver watermelon lemonade no i'm all

01:38:40.700 good just mango lemonade no lemonade you got regular what's the matter is the super chats not flowing

01:38:45.900 where's our super chats yeah what the fuck what the fuck where's our super ridiculous absurd bring you

01:38:51.020 all this bloodshed oh there we go we got some coming through we got some they're waiting for

01:38:54.540 the break they're waiting for the break get them in we'll let a couple come through then we'll

01:38:58.300 continue on with the show hundred dollar tts if you guys would like to get them in do you want some

01:39:02.780 chocolate milk or i have chocolate i'm not that's not a troll i have chocolate milk maybe later that

01:39:07.580 sounds good though applesauce i do like chocolate i should offer both i'm good for now i'm no applesauce

01:39:12.700 okay chocolate milk i maybe later strawberry okay all right beer for me we got uh let's see this chat

01:39:18.380 coming from jason hey thank you man jason castle donated one hundred dollars olivier so according

01:39:25.020 to your logic you would have to agree since women are stronger than children women should not have

01:39:30.460 abortions correct thank you mr underscore enigmatic for the question no you can you can bring the beer

01:39:36.940 in the corner i can respond to that quick i mean we can get into the abortion topic because i think

01:39:40.140 it would be interesting but he doesn't believe they're people no no i'm at earlier stages no but we

01:39:45.100 can get into that conversation you can come this way um go ahead um i think just generally when we're

01:39:52.620 talking about the abortion discussion i don't think that follows because i don't think yes i don't think

01:39:56.780 that they're children and i also don't think that at least legally they should be compelled in that way

01:40:01.580 if we were to grant fetal personhood though maybe there's a moral argument to be made um in the event

01:40:06.540 of granting fetal personhood but i don't think that would be legally compelled okay and we have

01:40:11.900 let me just read that they're never sure about okay here it is

01:40:17.980 plow i'm all donated one hundred dollars thank you man they're never sure about any definition or

01:40:23.340 anything really until it comes to calling you insecure about you not wanting your wife thinking

01:40:28.540 about other men while having sex with you but remember when i asked him wouldn't you prefer to

01:40:34.940 have a woman who's had sex with other men before he yes yes i wouldn't want to date a virgin

01:40:40.300 that's true i know you want to have it doesn't follow from that that it means ran through andrew

01:40:45.740 you don't you don't what is ran through dichotomy what is ran through fine yeah then a thousand

01:40:49.580 people sleeping with a thousand people 20 20 20 i don't have an exact number in my head andrew

01:40:55.420 there's not what do you mean why you say ran through hold on because of i'm not saying that it

01:41:00.860 follows that i don't want any woman who's had sex with like an infinite number of men okay it's a

01:41:06.940 balancing act of so many different traits but you want her to be able to have at least as much

01:41:13.020 experience as possible so that she can make the determination you're the bestest right no not not

01:41:18.220 necessarily the bestest of course not you don't you want your woman to think you're the best

01:41:22.940 wait if i wanted her to think i was the best i would just do what you do which is

01:41:26.380 no don't you want it's only mary wait i don't want you want your woman to think by the way i didn't

01:41:31.180 say that's what i do i'm not saying you i'm saying the position yeah yeah so tell me that

01:41:35.020 you're advocating would you prefer would you prefer that your woman thinks you're the best

01:41:39.420 um because i am the best not because i she thinks i'm the best so then she would need a pretty large

01:41:45.180 comparative sample to make sure that you she knew that you were the best right i don't necessarily

01:41:51.100 think that that is the only criterion here i don't i don't if someone if i dated a woman and she had

01:41:56.700 better sex with another man um and for other reasons like for example in relationships would

01:42:01.660 you want her to tell you about it the the sex can be great yeah would you want her to tell her

01:42:05.100 to tell you about like oh john ate my pussy so much better than you i mean not during the act or

01:42:09.740 something like that in that way or in that way i think that would what if she was like can you just

01:42:13.740 do this like john used to would you be okay with that andrew there is a difference would you answer

01:42:17.900 my question would you be okay with that not in that language why not in that language because then

01:42:23.020 that then then she is actually asking that because john did it hold on because there are

01:42:27.340 different ways of communicating a message if she was like because because what that does is that's

01:42:31.340 just saying you are inferior what instead the question could be is hey in previous relationships

01:42:37.180 i really liked it when this guy you want to lie to you no i don't want her to why is she asking you

01:42:42.460 to do this thing though if she's asking you to do the thing and in her brain she's asking you

01:42:47.100 because this other guy did it and she really likes it right no she can tell me that it's another guy

01:42:51.740 so can you do this thing that john used to do i really liked it in during the act or just in

01:42:56.940 conversation conversations sure yeah that's fine yeah uh-huh okay so you you wouldn't mind hearing

01:43:02.220 about that no it wouldn't bother you a bit no i mean if she's constantly talking about the sex that

01:43:07.020 she's had with other guys then that would be a little bit now let me ask you this how do you think

01:43:10.860 it would go over if you were with your girlfriend and you were like look the problem is is that like

01:43:14.940 stacy used to really suck my dick good and you just don't and so what you need to do is get at

01:43:20.700 least two more inches of yaw down your throat do you think that that's incredibly that's incredibly

01:43:25.260 crass and crude so what you would do instead is lie right i would not lie i would have conversation

01:43:29.980 with her in in previous relationships but in your head you really want to suck your dick like stacy

01:43:34.540 i think you can but i just don't think you have to say it in such like but you know how you can do it

01:43:39.500 without lying oh you don't have sex with anyone ever isn't that true and be a virgin how is it how is

01:43:44.220 that not having sex with anyone ever wait when you're before you have sex with one person so

01:43:49.100 so necessarily if we're talking about that's a really uncharitable that no it was totally

01:43:55.260 charitable you were obfuscating no i was not off you were obfuscating so the question the question is

01:44:00.700 right why would you not prefer if it led to more happiness for your woman she was actually object

01:44:08.460 objectively happier right and you were objectively happier why would you prefer to have a higher

01:44:15.820 sample size to compare yourself against if it led to like these worse outcomes in relationships what

01:44:21.340 do you mean worse outcomes what would the worst they're less happy less happy because they are

01:44:25.740 making comparisons to other people where those comparisons don't need to be made i think there's

01:44:30.620 a balancing act between the truth and happiness do you think people like i mean this is a really

01:44:35.100 interesting way to put it do you think like living in like bliss where you don't know reality but are

01:44:40.460 really happy is preferable to being less happy but being in tune with no i think actually this goes to

01:44:46.620 my point not yours right so i think that you don't need to do heroin i think you don't need to do heroin

01:44:54.380 to ever make a comparison right between like beer and heroin i like beer i like it a lot yeah i'm gonna

01:45:01.820 keep drinking it sure i'm not gonna do heroin though but isn't heroin but heroin could be

01:45:06.300 isn't heroin different than beer but hang on hang on but well isn't uh chad different than you there

01:45:10.940 it's sex andrew yeah and sex is very different with people isn't it sure it can be yeah great so

01:45:16.300 the thing is it's like so i have a beer right heroin could be fucking amazing it could be

01:45:22.140 fucking like the shit so it could be black tar like laced with some fucking insane shit i could feel

01:45:27.820 like i'm on cloud nine the shit but i'm not gonna do it right sure and i still like beer yeah right

01:45:34.220 and i'm not gonna like why do i need to have the comparison to know what i'm missing here so what i

01:45:39.980 think what i think is going on here with that is there are a lot of negative outcomes associated with

01:45:44.220 heroin you would say there's a lot of negative outcomes to promiscuity wait a second do you want

01:45:47.500 me to let me do you want me do you want me do you want to let me finish what i was saying before

01:45:52.620 you say that you're going to say that the comparison is there's a lot of negative outcomes

01:45:56.060 to promiscuity yeah i would say is i don't think those outcomes are necessarily related to the

01:46:03.180 sex that the people are having i think it's a lack of communication i think it's largely can

01:46:08.220 be a lack of consent why is it i think it could be because why are virgins reporting happier sex lives

01:46:12.940 dude they're reporting happier sex lives i don't because some they they prefer that because they

01:46:17.660 don't have a comparison hold on but you are i'm because they have no it's so simple and it's like

01:46:24.460 do i need to compare heroin with beer to like beer to to have like this ongoing long-term relationship

01:46:30.780 and be very happy with beer i never need to take heroin why is this why would you ever try another

01:46:36.140 beer why is there necessary preconditions here right well here's the thing right i would say

01:46:42.700 you're satisfied with that beer right yeah i would say that sex for a woman with like a six foot six man

01:46:47.500 right versus a sex with a woman with like i don't know a four foot to fucking tall pygmy dude right is

01:46:53.580 gonna be so fucking different on scale it's gonna be more akin to like this and something like heroin

01:47:00.460 that it would be between light beer and heavy beer dude i i don't think i mean we're completely going

01:47:05.980 out of the limb here i don't think it at all necessarily entails that someone who's taller is

01:47:10.620 going to be better at having sex there's no no it's the idea of attraction level the idea of

01:47:17.100 uh well i mean there's all sorts of of massive factors which would go into this so but i do think

01:47:22.780 that it is the case right that if you have a lesser sample size right you see you seem to be making this

01:47:29.580 claim like ignorance is bliss ignorance is bliss with heroin isn't it wait we know the bad things we

01:47:35.020 know the bad things for promiscuity hold on hold on and this would go to the question of heroin

01:47:39.740 uh-huh if there were and people have proposed like safe injection sites for people to do it safely

01:47:44.300 if that leads to them being better off uh-huh yes i'm in favor of them getting yeah the problem is

01:47:49.740 don't you don't you and i don't think they're i don't think they're inherently intertwined i just

01:47:53.420 think they so often are as a harm reduction and they can't be separated so as a harm reductionist

01:47:58.940 don't you think that if we have heroin injection sites and things like this that you're

01:48:03.260 normal like i'll give you a perfect example of this the pro marijuana crowd right let's all smoke weed

01:48:10.060 they said once marijuana is legal it's only going to be the people who were smoking it before who

01:48:15.580 just won't go to jail right but that's not actually how it happened at all what actually happened is

01:48:20.460 after marijuana was legalized now it's advertised fucking everywhere non-stop and tons of people who

01:48:26.860 ordinarily would never have smoked marijuana are smoking it tons right it creates a normalization

01:48:33.500 and the normalization creates the ability to have the discourse around propaganda this is actually

01:48:39.740 good what right yeah so like for instance beer commercials do you think beer commercials would

01:48:44.380 lead more people to drink or less probably more probably more that makes sense to me follows same

01:48:49.980 thing with legalization of a thing it generally seems to lead to more of that behavior not less

01:48:55.500 this isn't a moderation thing right well actually it is a moderation thing no but your moderation

01:49:00.620 thing is just only one person and i'm saying that there is a there there can no no my moderation thing

01:49:05.820 is that every subsequent person you have you now have more experiences to compare to for negative

01:49:10.780 experiences when you never needed to do it just like with drugs just like with drugs like oh shrooms are

01:49:16.460 better than heroin beer is better than me right wow it's all a negative connotation i read i read a

01:49:22.540 book and then i read a better book and that book made the first book seem less good and i read another

01:49:26.300 book and it made both books the problem is is that so following your logic you're on this one because

01:49:30.860 following your logic if we're talking about books right what's the harm generally speaking of reading

01:49:36.700 lord of the rings and then reading like the sort of truth and thinking the sort of truth is less

01:49:40.620 good than the lord of the rings you want to have those comparisons for knowledge those are

01:49:44.220 actually good comparisons not so good like nobody's ever going to report their happiness level their

01:49:50.780 general wellness level in society has decreased because they read the lord of the rings and then

01:49:55.980 after that the sisterhood of the traveling pants bro they definitely will do that with drugs and they

01:50:00.940 will definitely do that with uh relationships especially interpersonal ones because they're elongated

01:50:06.940 relationships are elongated i guess so then i'm curious for you do you hold the same standard for men

01:50:12.220 and women that it's bad for them to have promiscuous sex and they should wait until

01:50:16.060 i definitely think that promiscuity and men is a fucking problem okay 100 hold the same exact

01:50:22.620 standard but here's my caveat it is generally less damaging overall in society if men are promiscuous

01:50:29.980 than women are generally in like based on so here's here's generally why that is true now again the caveat

01:50:37.820 here is both are bad okay so i will make this distinction that if there's no male promiscuity

01:50:43.340 there can't be female promiscuity you agree with that yeah and same thing if there's no female

01:50:47.580 promiscuity there's not going to be male promiscuity right well unless they were same-sex relationships

01:50:52.380 but yeah between men and women dude okay well you said a general prescription on society and i was putting

01:50:59.900 fine okay first of all in same-sex relationships even when they're married there's massive amounts of

01:51:04.540 promiscuity by the numbers right the unfaithfulness rating for married gay men is outrageous the amount

01:51:11.100 of sex parties they have outrageous the amount of promiscuity is fucking outrageous well first so

01:51:15.820 anyway so there's that well statistics on that we would have to look at the statistics aren't even

01:51:20.300 questioned on that hold on who do you think it's reported more bro what what do you think it's reported

01:51:25.660 more in terms of infidelity i think within same-sex relationships because that's much easier with

01:51:30.060 same-sex relationships because the sample size is so small it's also much more normalized within

01:51:34.060 those communities there are a lot more gay men yeah and that's bad though right that's not good

01:51:39.020 right i think it's bad if they're not informing their partner the same way it's bad if a heterosexual

01:51:44.300 couple is not informing their couple so wait a second wait wait wait a second so you think

01:51:49.580 then that if you're in like a heterosexual married relationship if it's an open relationship

01:51:54.780 that's healthy it can be for certain people no it's not healthy for basically anybody they almost

01:51:59.580 all like 90 of them actually no it's higher it's like 95 of them fail open marriages 95 fail

01:52:07.580 open relationships like 95 fail it's insane where are you getting the stats from andrew yeah so these

01:52:13.340 stats actually came i think there was a combination of pew research but there was and the only reason i

01:52:18.060 know this one off the top of my head uh that it's 90 95 is because of cuck destiny who that this was

01:52:24.540 quoted at him non-stop right and what happened with his relationship i have no idea i don't follow him

01:52:29.260 he was married in an open relationship and guess what everyone told him bro it's gonna fail and guess

01:52:34.700 what happened okay it failed and why did it fail the same reason all of them fail now not only do you

01:52:39.420 have a comparative sample right but you can go test it now you can just go test it whenever you want

01:52:44.540 to right that doesn't seem like it's very good for society in general like for your parents to have

01:52:50.460 open relationships and going out and like sleeping with other people that seems like if the failure

01:52:55.740 rate's that high that would be i mean i and i can i guess i think that largely it also comes from a

01:53:00.780 lack of honesty between people that can be a huge contributing factor is largely because of guilt

01:53:06.620 because of shame because of people who don't think that's how we just destigmatized it i i i think it

01:53:11.580 i think i'm not claiming that everything wait a second andrew i'm not claiming that everything would

01:53:16.060 get better and i'm also not claiming that open marriages are better than closed marriages i would

01:53:20.380 agree with you at least from personal experiences that's not my cup of tea but i don't you're in

01:53:25.580 an open relationship not directly an open relationship but like if you're not like

01:53:30.780 officially dating but people are seeing multiple people yeah that's not my thing okay but it doesn't

01:53:36.060 mean i know people who that works for it doesn't work for me who i'm not no you don't know anybody

01:53:40.700 it's long-term work dude i went to oberlin college man no no none of these people will long-term

01:53:45.820 work for basically basically none no i don't think that's true it is true okay by the numbers it's

01:53:50.780 true okay so like when it comes to open relationships right especially open marriages that's usually one

01:53:57.020 of the number one signs of failure in fact is that one couple or one partner asked to open up the

01:54:01.180 relationship okay like imagine that just think about that for a second if you if a man's wife came to

01:54:08.300 him and just wanted to be open and honest and said listen honey i just want to go fuck this other

01:54:13.580 guy but that's not how she frames it she's going to be nice like you she's going to say listen

01:54:18.220 there's some satisfaction issues that i have in the bedroom and this is going on and that's how

01:54:22.300 how bad do you think that guy would feel like on a scale of one to ten probably not great but i think

01:54:27.340 that probably like really bad right then i think that hopefully would initiate a conversation where he's

01:54:32.780 like oh okay do you mind if we try out things that you like and we see if that's something that i'm

01:54:38.940 okay with or he could just say fuck it that's not something i'm okay with if you choose to do

01:54:43.660 that yeah i'm getting a divorce so that's fine you're allowed to have that preference yeah if

01:54:47.900 a woman came to you and said that she wanted to like open up your relationship to sleep with other

01:54:51.900 men right would that make you feel really bad um it would make me realize there's a problem yeah

01:54:57.020 would you want to stay in a relationship where that was the solution your partner proposed to you

01:55:00.620 that she would sleep with other men i would have a conversation with her i don't know it would

01:55:04.700 it would really depend on exactly what it would depend if she proposed that actually it would

01:55:10.620 it would be a deal breaker if she wasn't talking to me about her need so for example if she was never

01:55:15.660 a complaint again this is not a problem that i've had but if she was talking about this and like never

01:55:20.540 was vocalizing her dissatisfaction and the first thing she said was i want to open the relationship

01:55:26.460 then i would be like what the heck why didn't we discuss this earlier she just expressed her

01:55:30.700 dissatisfaction for for a long time for a long time okay yeah then i think we would probably

01:55:35.100 break up then because there seems to be an incompatibility there so you just wouldn't do it

01:55:38.700 now what if she never would have vocalized any of this because she had no dissatisfaction because

01:55:43.020 she never fucked anybody but you no what about that that's fucking weird can you can you can

01:55:48.300 answer that hang on no that's would you have a preference though that if you took that same woman

01:55:53.580 right same woman you really liked her everything was great and if it were the case that she had no

01:55:58.620 comparative sample size she would have stayed with you would you have preferred that no no no i don't

01:56:04.940 think so but i don't how is that good for people's health and wellness dude andrew andrew it's really

01:56:10.460 wait andrew but can can you acknowledge to me that it's kind of weird to not want to want someone to

01:56:15.020 think you're the best not because you're good at what you do but just because they don't know any

01:56:20.220 better no i'm sorry hang on they don't know any better hang on this is this is such a stupid

01:56:24.300 argument let me point out why it's stupid if you lived in an island nation that had 1 000 people

01:56:29.500 right and you were the very best at running whatever the marathon was that you ran on the

01:56:33.340 island and nobody was better than you sure is it not appropriate for you to think that you're the

01:56:37.340 best because obviously globally even though you don't know about them there's like a million people

01:56:42.700 who have broken every record you've ever broken sure what does that have to do yeah so why is it

01:56:46.780 not why is it inappropriate for that guy uh to think of himself as the best and that the people of

01:56:52.300 that island nation to think of him as the best i don't think there's a problem with i i don't

01:56:56.860 of course not of course not andrew i don't see your island example follows because it's the same

01:57:01.980 thing she's an island when it comes to sex she has no comparative for as far as she's concerned you're

01:57:07.660 that track runner you're the best nobody runs the marathon fucking better than you and guess what

01:57:14.460 even if they did she'd have no contextualization any more than the guy in the island nation and you

01:57:19.500 think that that's fine in the island nation to glorify him but for some reason inside of a

01:57:23.260 relationship it's not i don't i don't care about the island example because i think it's a silly

01:57:26.860 hypothetical that i care about why it's completely comparable you are you're mapping it so far from

01:57:31.900 reality here's the point andrew it's the same reality andrew yeah i think the problem here is it's

01:57:38.140 strange to not want someone to know what they like or know better so you're all they know they do know

01:57:45.260 know what they like what do you they like what you they like you and what you're doing they know

01:57:49.180 it 100 sure because they've never seen anything else which is which is just it's it's way to say

01:57:54.220 i'm sorry i'm sorry is it the case that they really like having sex with you but it is also the case

01:58:02.380 that it's possible they could really like having sex with someone else it is absolutely okay great

01:58:07.180 isn't that the case with every human being of course it is so if that's the case then if it is the

01:58:11.900 case that you happen to have a human being who doesn't have this massive comparative sample

01:58:17.740 and she's super happy with that why would you want to fuck that up i wouldn't i'm not saying i

01:58:23.420 would fuck it up or i'm saying it would fuck it up wouldn't it be good for society good for society

01:58:28.460 if people have less sex they would be having more sex and more satisfactory sex i don't think that's

01:58:33.740 necessarily well then why do they do i why is it that virgin couples man and woman by the way

01:58:39.420 report the most amount of sexual satisfaction over any other sexual demographic in the

01:58:44.620 fucking existence of humanity because largely i think they are living lifestyles that are in

01:58:49.660 accordance with the values that they hold if other people who did not hold those values and had

01:58:55.020 different desires were forced into that type of situation it doesn't that's fantastic it doesn't

01:59:00.380 necessarily follow it doesn't necessarily follow it's secularist and it's hindus and it's christians

01:59:05.420 and it's muslims and it's everybody okay across all demographics yes and why and what would be the

01:59:10.700 common denominator those are people who are choosing those types of relationships or were they forced

01:59:15.260 into those types of relationships here's the thing if you're talking about and i'll grant you this

01:59:21.100 if you're talking about like an arranged relationship yeah right sometimes they do report

01:59:26.140 massive dissatisfaction this i understand right is the conditional because of the arranged marriage itself

01:59:32.700 i think you could make a case that there's at least some of that right but historically most most

01:59:37.020 marriages were arranged in most asian nations they're still fucking arranged and the satisfaction

01:59:40.860 rate for virgins even in arranged marriages is still higher it's still fucking higher and

01:59:45.260 and do you think that's a so i'm just curious andrew no i'm just i'm not saying it's good

01:59:49.660 i'm just pointing out that it's true it is so then do you think i'm making a hypothetical here

01:59:54.300 maybe it's not the case what if what if uh satisfaction rates in marriage were the best they could

01:59:59.820 ever be if every marriage was arraigned oh fuck yes absolutely okay you could never make a case

02:00:05.820 why that would be bad i think so how because i don't think that people should be choosing who

02:00:10.220 other people's partners are why if that led to the best outcomes you would have no argument for that

02:00:15.100 so wait then can i just make the same argument towards you about you were talking about the whole

02:00:19.420 incest and brother case what about it then you're saying that there is a better reason yeah if it

02:00:25.580 were the case right um then and and i and you said it had the best outcomes but you were still

02:00:31.580 against it based on intuition that's where you would have the inconsistency but i wasn't against

02:00:34.940 it you were you said intuitively conditionally you're intuitively against it because i literally

02:00:40.380 told you the opposite hold on because i think for these cases no i think for these cases our

02:00:45.020 intuitions are responding to the very factors that we tried to stipulate out uh no that's not always

02:00:51.900 the case i think for this case it absolutely no so what are you talking about andrew andrew then

02:00:57.020 then let then let me go back on my previous statement and say that if that situation that

02:01:02.300 you provided then yeah then yes yes of course because now you have to be consistent because

02:01:07.100 i point out yet another inconsistency so of course i don't remember saying that i remember what i was

02:01:11.340 doing andrew what i was doing is i was contesting the realisticness of your hypothetical and saying

02:01:16.220 that i don't think that would be it is realistic i don't think that would be born out in reality

02:01:20.060 i don't think that incest no that it would be good how wait what do you mean you're saying that

02:01:26.220 they this if the satisfaction rates were in those incestuous relationships were through the roof yeah

02:01:32.060 then would you want would you think that would be a fine thing i was contesting that i don't think

02:01:36.700 that would ever be born out in reality so in the hypothetical that you propose sure i'll accept

02:01:42.060 a hypothetical why wouldn't it be born out reality do you think yeah that incestuous couples yeah

02:01:48.060 there would be children who would be happy with that do do well by i think by your metric yes

02:01:54.780 there would be no well i mean we can look at that we can look at the already presented data okay

02:01:59.580 yeah of of of heterosexual and i think if you had by the way an incestuous lobby the same way you have

02:02:05.260 a gay lobby who paid for all the same fucking studies that showed the outcomes that i could have a

02:02:10.620 massive publishing bias as well for basically any data that i wanted okay the truth is that most of

02:02:15.980 these you're making an unfalsifiable claim that we're it's not unfalsifiable i'll give you a

02:02:20.060 counterfactual here's the claim here's the claim the claim is most lgbtq and trans studies are funded

02:02:25.740 by gay groups and gay adjacent groups okay and that's who they're funded by that is the truth

02:02:30.620 sure and i look i don't i've not looked into who funds every single but i mean that's that's why there's

02:02:35.180 so much publishing bias fine conditionally in fact one of the biggest talking points for the left

02:02:39.660 is that that's okay though especially in the trans community it's okay that mostly it's trans

02:02:44.780 advocate organizations who are paying for these studies because well nobody would look at it if

02:02:48.700 they didn't and it's like it totally ignores the bias which would go into people who wanted those

02:02:54.700 results so andrew what i think instead you should do instead of merely saying that these studies are

02:02:59.260 bs because of the organizations that are funding them just point out what's wrong with the research

02:03:04.460 yeah well that's a better thing i do often so so then the first part like trans research when we're

02:03:09.020 talking about brain studies i can point all of that out okay when we're talking about incest studies

02:03:12.700 though this isn't even a thing which is willing to be studied right mostly because men like me are

02:03:18.540 like fuck no no way uh it's unbelievably fucking disgusting right we intuitively are against it

02:03:25.100 but for you the outcomes guy right you shouldn't really have any issues whatsoever if there actually

02:03:30.940 is an outcome which is preferable well andrew you would be you would for one you have to be putting

02:03:35.900 people directly in harm's way and saying you have to have like an incestuous relationship

02:03:40.060 no they're just already existing if it already exists yeah you should study i mean if they already

02:03:44.540 exist yeah exactly so if the evidence shows that it is the case that incestuous relationships

02:03:50.860 by two willing partners and there's by the way incest lead to better there are incest groups

02:03:56.460 which do advocate for these fucking things not kidding right and make the affirmative claim that

02:04:01.580 they're happy it's an unfalsifiable is that i think they're wrong yeah you think they're wrong that

02:04:06.460 they're happy wait no no wait i think they're wrong that generally in these types of relationships

02:04:11.580 that it does lead to the best outcome for the family so that's all i'm okay well let me ask you

02:04:15.980 this what if they just wanted to have that relationship and they just wanted to have it

02:04:20.220 without without without children or something like that i think there's i mean the ethics of incest

02:04:25.420 is an interesting philosophical twin brothers mm-hmm what's the problem what's the problem with it if

02:04:31.180 they want to engage in consensual activity i think it is strange and oh it's strange here's the thing

02:04:38.220 though and andrew well i don't it's strange andrew great argument andrew it's strange andrew here's

02:04:43.340 the problem is if we go through for example i just took a bioethics course and we were talking about

02:04:48.620 the ethics of incest and the fact that it is really hard to pin down the exact wrong of incest when

02:04:55.020 looking at it directly if you remove the genetic factors if you remove a lot of the familial factors the

02:05:00.860 problem is i'm not going to get into an argument where i'm defending incest but you already did

02:05:04.700 multiple times no i didn't you've defended it multiple times i did not defend incest because

02:05:08.620 i said that's not the case it will not be um good for these people so can we not do the reason we

02:05:15.900 we sidelined and i'm not going to let you kind of like evade the point back to this idea of sample

02:05:22.060 size this is what we're actually talking about which led to this why is it again that you think

02:05:29.020 that if it is the case that when people get married virgins right they report the largest

02:05:34.220 amount of happiness in their relationship stay together basically more than almost any other

02:05:37.900 demographic by the way it's fucking insane like why is it that you would not want to advocate for

02:05:43.580 that in society even if you didn't make laws but you just made social advocation towards it i'm also

02:05:48.460 not advocating in favor of like insane hookup culture what's my question don't dude answer my question

02:05:54.700 i think that's fine absolutely advocate so so what if what if we had government policy

02:05:59.260 that's different hang on okay continue well i don't understand don't you want government policy

02:06:04.300 which says that being lgbtq is okay um government policy which pro permits people to exercise the

02:06:10.460 rainbow flags in the white house i don't really care about that i think that's i think i think i don't

02:06:15.420 really care where the flags are i think if that's going to just rile a bunch of people what would

02:06:19.340 actually be the problem there's no law which is restricting anything but the government right in

02:06:26.220 state organizations from the top down right promoted instead that um low people with low body counts

02:06:34.780 and who are not promiscuous tended to report much higher happiness levels and their marriages stay

02:06:38.780 together better better and for the health of the nation they'd prefer to move a population towards

02:06:43.660 that what would be wrong with that i don't think there would necessarily be anything wrong that's

02:06:46.860 what i advocate for okay and i'm not fully against that i'm just you know who is feminists they're

02:06:51.820 not entirely no yes entirely against it which which feminist organization hold on here here's the

02:06:57.820 problem with this you're saying that individuals advocating for that as a good lifestyle because

02:07:02.220 it works for them i didn't say individuals working for that what did i say what do you say

02:07:06.380 what's my position your position is that there should be government funded propaganda individuals

02:07:10.780 hold on government is that individuals wait i was talking about the reason that feminist organizations

02:07:15.740 uh-huh would be against that government style of push uh-huh why okay why because it is prescribing

02:07:21.740 on to everyone a type of lifestyle there's no prescription that doesn't work for everyone it's

02:07:26.700 saying that you should do this wait what's the prescription the prescription is you should wait

02:07:31.100 until sex to have marriage or wait until marriage to have sex and the outcomes are better the outcomes

02:07:36.620 can be better and so well no for for most everybody the outcomes are better at least from the reported

02:07:42.620 date when you say like certain people it's like okay dude yeah i i guess you could make the case

02:07:47.980 that like uh grape is bad for certain people no for certain people no it's bad for every no it's only

02:07:54.780 bad for certain people here like there's women you agree who have orgasmed during sa that has nothing

02:08:00.380 to do with bro that has nothing to do with whether it's sa are you kidding me i didn't say whether or not

02:08:05.420 that's sa i said during sa yeah what does it have to do with anything well bro if that's the case

02:08:11.340 right then was it bad for them yes why absolutely because there are overriding harms than just

02:08:18.460 orgasm i'm not saying that's not the case what perfect so then here's the case then the case is

02:08:24.460 is like when you say for some people right the reason you keep saying that is because even though

02:08:29.580 it's the vast overwhelming majority of people you want to like create this little minutiae outlier

02:08:35.500 right is it logically possible that there's ever been a woman who's been s8 who'd enjoyed it

02:08:41.420 i i am not going to can you answer my question is it logically possible logically possible sure okay

02:08:48.060 sure yeah but that that's not i'm but i'm not i'm not ascribing anything do you think there's ever

02:08:52.060 been a single woman who's who's been s8 and has enjoyed it i'm not going to answer the question

02:08:55.900 answer the question i'm not going to answer the question but i'm not because then i can't say

02:08:59.180 some people i'm not going to answer i'm not going to answer whether women enjoy being great that's

02:09:02.860 not what i asked you whether a woman has enjoyed being great if there's ever been one do you think

02:09:06.860 there's ever been one i'm not i know i'm not anything you don't think there has been i don't know and

02:09:11.100 i'm not going to answer yeah exactly i'm not going to answer this is such a weird thing what do you

02:09:16.620 this is such a weird thing what's wrong with answering the question because i'm not going to say

02:09:21.500 I'm not going to contribute to rhetoric that tries to say that there is anything good about S.A.

02:09:26.760 Who said there's anything good about it?

02:09:28.060 You just said that some women orgasm.

02:09:30.080 Therefore, that is a good of it.

02:09:31.440 No, no, no, no.

02:09:32.020 I was running an internal critique and saying if it is the case of X, then Y.

02:09:36.640 That's not me advocating for that position.

02:09:39.120 Don't lie.

02:09:40.080 That's one.

02:09:40.620 And two, when we move into this, right, here's what I'm saying to you.

02:09:46.160 And I'll ask this question again.

02:09:48.140 Do you think that there's been at least one woman who's ever existed that was S.A.

02:09:52.780 and liked it?

02:09:53.600 I don't know.

02:09:55.120 What do you think?

02:09:56.620 I don't know.

02:09:57.560 I'm not going to answer that question, Andrew.

02:09:59.180 Because then I could say, well, why make the prescription you shouldn't S.A.?

02:10:04.340 No.

02:10:04.560 Because some people don't like it.

02:10:06.640 No.

02:10:07.400 Yeah.

02:10:08.060 Yeah, it's the same shit, dude.

02:10:09.480 Same shit, bro.

02:10:10.780 Andrew, do you think – wait, hold on.

02:10:12.100 Wait a second here.

02:10:12.560 Do you think the harm of S.A., of grape, is equivalent to the harm of those who have more

02:10:20.820 promiscuous lifestyles?

02:10:22.080 No.

02:10:22.540 No?

02:10:23.020 Okay.

02:10:23.300 So there is a differential in harm.

02:10:24.960 What does that have to do with anything?

02:10:26.860 I can still say some people by your same metric.

02:10:29.480 But then if you even take that metric that there was some, there would be an overwhelming

02:10:33.740 harm that would overwhelm that.

02:10:35.880 And I'm not saying –

02:10:37.120 Yes.

02:10:37.400 Yes.

02:10:37.440 But I'm saying the harm is not equivalent between that and the thing there.

02:10:41.600 It doesn't need to be equivalent.

02:10:42.760 All it needs to be is analogous for some people.

02:10:44.660 That's it.

02:10:44.960 Mm-hmm.

02:10:45.480 Yeah.

02:10:45.820 That's it.

02:10:46.200 Why does it need to be an equivalency for harm?

02:10:47.840 All it needs to do is be an overriding harm.

02:10:49.980 It doesn't need to be – it doesn't need to be the next Holocaust.

02:10:52.440 I don't think it's an overriding harm.

02:10:53.100 It doesn't need to be the next – it doesn't need to be the next Holocaust for it to be an

02:10:56.100 overriding harm, bro.

02:10:56.520 I'm not saying it has to be.

02:10:57.720 I'm saying that I don't think the harm of that overrides it.

02:10:59.600 So then why are you making – so then why are you fallaciously arguing this, right,

02:11:04.240 by saying, well, wait a second, Andrew, I'm not going to answer this question because

02:11:07.940 if I do, then you could say some people the same way that I am.

02:11:11.800 No, because – Andrew, why don't you utilize another example that could not be interpreted

02:11:17.360 as a grape apologist?

02:11:18.840 I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but I think it is harmful to kind of weaponize

02:11:24.320 the trauma of SA survivors to make a kind of logical point here.

02:11:27.920 I think it's super harmful to have the promotion of promiscuity when you yourself have admitted

02:11:33.720 it now multiple times that by not being promiscuous, getting married as a virgin, right, it makes

02:11:38.800 sense to not have that comparative sample size for happiness, and you're still against

02:11:42.180 it.

02:11:42.540 You're driving harm.

02:11:43.940 Well, I am driving –

02:11:45.100 That is driving harm, literally.

02:11:46.880 Do you think that there can be greater goods than harm?

02:11:50.520 Sorry.

02:11:50.800 Me?

02:11:51.240 Fine.

02:11:51.520 Sorry.

02:11:51.740 Greater bads than harm.

02:11:53.440 Me?

02:11:53.840 For my view?

02:11:54.760 I think there can be.

02:11:55.560 I don't think – for example, I think restriction of autonomy and taking away people's freedom,

02:11:59.980 even if they're going to do something that makes them unhappy, does not always follow that

02:12:03.400 that's what we should do.

02:12:04.580 People should be free.

02:12:05.480 Yeah, but that's just rule utilitarianism.

02:12:07.060 No, no, no.

02:12:07.600 People should be free to make bad decisions.

02:12:10.080 Come on, it is.

02:12:10.120 I'm not saying I'm a utilitarian.

02:12:11.780 That's rule utilitarianism.

02:12:13.360 Yeah.

02:12:13.960 That's like saying –

02:12:14.900 You're like –

02:12:15.220 Rule utilitarianism is general rules.

02:12:15.820 All you're doing is saying like –

02:12:17.400 It's – yeah, but –

02:12:18.640 Well, that would be rules.

02:12:19.320 I'm saying that –

02:12:19.980 That would be –

02:12:20.480 What are you talking about?

02:12:20.980 No, I'm saying that autonomy is more important than harm.

02:12:26.000 No, it's not.

02:12:27.280 No, no, that's stupid.

02:12:28.620 Like, that makes no sense.

02:12:29.460 What you're actually making the case for is if somebody was about to like unalive themselves

02:12:33.320 and they wanted to –

02:12:35.700 Is that the harm, Andrew?

02:12:36.700 Is that the equivalent harm?

02:12:37.940 No, no, no.

02:12:38.560 I'm making your case.

02:12:39.760 Okay.

02:12:40.140 I don't know why you're getting mad at me for making your case.

02:12:42.360 And then I ran in and stopped them.

02:12:44.020 I'm definitely stopping their autonomy.

02:12:45.580 Sure.

02:12:45.980 And you would just say that that's good.

02:12:47.700 Sure.

02:12:48.100 So there can be rules and then exceptions to the rules, right?

02:12:51.120 I'm not arguing on that rule utilitarian basis.

02:12:54.000 Well, what are you arguing on the basis of here then?

02:12:56.100 I'm saying you can balance different considerations.

02:12:59.720 That doesn't follow that the general overwhelming principle is harm.

02:13:03.640 There can be multiple things that you value.

02:13:06.040 Rule utilitarianism values pleasure and pain overwhelmingly so, and then there's exceptions

02:13:11.360 for autonomy.

02:13:12.420 I'm saying that you can hold two things as equivalent at the same time.

02:13:16.000 Well, the shit you're pushing is still hedonic the same way.

02:13:20.020 It's still just basic hedonism.

02:13:21.580 No.

02:13:21.720 That's the only way that you're assessing what is harmful anyway.

02:13:24.600 I don't think so.

02:13:25.440 What else are you using as a metric for what's harmful here?

02:13:28.400 What's harmful for, I mean, it would also involve individuals who are reporting whether

02:13:32.740 they're satisfied or not.

02:13:33.620 That would be hedonistic.

02:13:34.580 It's not hedonistic.

02:13:35.400 How is it not?

02:13:36.240 Hold on.

02:13:36.520 Do you think if someone says they're satisfied with their life, that they inherently mean

02:13:40.700 that their life is pleasurable or they could have their desires satisfied or they could

02:13:44.680 feel that they are checking off a list of things that are valuable to them?

02:13:48.800 It doesn't follow.

02:13:49.620 Overwhelmingly, yes.

02:13:50.180 Yes.

02:13:50.420 Just because.

02:13:51.000 Over-fucking-whelmingly, yes.

02:13:52.960 When a person says, I'm happy, they mean I'm satisfied.

02:13:55.780 Yes.

02:13:56.080 Wait, wait.

02:13:57.020 Like, pleasure?

02:13:57.780 Like, wait, wait.

02:13:58.400 Hold on.

02:13:58.740 Yes.

02:13:58.880 Just because of pleasure.

02:13:59.700 Yes.

02:14:00.640 Well, what do you mean?

02:14:02.260 I'm sorry.

02:14:02.980 If you're miserable, are you experiencing pleasure?

02:14:05.040 People can be unhappy with certain aspects of their life and still say that there are overwhelming

02:14:09.600 considerations that are desired.

02:14:11.080 Of pleasure.

02:14:11.380 Hold on.

02:14:11.740 I don't.

02:14:12.140 Of pleasure.

02:14:12.640 Are you saying everything reduces to pleasure?

02:14:14.180 I'm saying in your view, it does.

02:14:15.380 It doesn't.

02:14:15.680 You're trying to straw man my view.

02:14:16.920 I'm not saying everything reduces to pleasure.

02:14:17.900 If I am, I will take a step back then and just make sure I get this right.

02:14:21.800 Mm-hmm.

02:14:22.800 How is it not if a person is reporting satisfaction and things like this not related to the ideas

02:14:29.440 of pleasure?

02:14:31.200 How are they reporting that?

02:14:33.120 Because people can be satisfied in things that aren't pleasure-based.

02:14:37.520 Like?

02:14:38.040 Hold on.

02:14:38.460 Well, I mean, a famous example of this would be Robert Nozick's experience machine.

02:14:41.780 Have you heard of that thought experiment?

02:14:42.460 Yes, of course.

02:14:43.140 You can plug them into the experience machine.

02:14:44.600 They get positive experiences for the rest of their life.

02:14:46.600 Most people's intuition's against it.

02:14:48.060 They say no.

02:14:48.440 Yeah.

02:14:48.740 Yeah.

02:14:49.060 So what?

02:14:49.440 So people value things other than just pure pleasure.

02:14:52.400 That's not what that shows.

02:14:53.820 Yeah, it does.

02:14:54.280 No.

02:14:54.740 What are you saying?

02:14:55.280 The experiment is not showing that they value things other than just pleasure.

02:14:58.620 Connection with reality.

02:14:59.820 It's that there could possibly be some sort of like consciousness intuition that makes you value

02:15:07.280 things that are not pleasurable.

02:15:09.260 That's it.

02:15:10.360 Sure.

02:15:10.980 You can value things separate from pleasure.

02:15:13.340 Well, yeah, but that doesn't...

02:15:15.380 It's saying that consciousness itself may.

02:15:18.380 What do you mean consciousness?

02:15:19.500 Well, like...

02:15:20.180 We are conscious.

02:15:21.380 I'm saying we are.

02:15:21.940 Yeah, but no, but it's asking a question about consciousness itself.

02:15:26.380 It's asking a question about you.

02:15:27.360 No, it's asking about...

02:15:27.920 What you value.

02:15:28.500 Yeah, but...

02:15:29.220 So then your consciousness?

02:15:30.220 I value having things that are separate from just pleasure.

02:15:34.320 Yeah, but you have to be conscious.

02:15:35.580 Because if you're talking about the pleasure machine, you don't exist in the pleasure machine.

02:15:40.880 No, you do.

02:15:41.360 No, your consciousness exists in the pleasure machine.

02:15:44.580 Well, this would be a whole different...

02:15:46.220 Lord, have mercy.

02:15:47.280 Andrew, this would be a whole different philosophy of mind.

02:15:49.060 You don't think that a person who's unconscious is not a fucking person, dude.

02:15:53.500 Well, correct, because they can actualize their mind.

02:15:55.860 No, when they're asleep?

02:15:57.400 Yeah.

02:15:57.720 How?

02:15:58.000 It's called waking up.

02:15:59.560 Then they're not asleep.

02:16:01.060 No.

02:16:01.540 Yeah.

02:16:01.900 There's still a person throughout that.

02:16:03.380 What does that have to do?

02:16:03.640 Yes, of course.

02:16:04.440 So the pleasure machine is talking about consciousness with pleasure.

02:16:10.100 I think we largely are.

02:16:10.680 Not talking about you.

02:16:12.640 I'm saying that fundamentally we are.

02:16:15.180 And there's this whole separate debate.

02:16:16.180 How do you not know this, by the way?

02:16:17.060 You're a philosophy student?

02:16:18.440 Okay.

02:16:18.900 This is old philosophy.

02:16:20.240 If you read Nozick's exact example, he contradicts everything you're saying because he's saying

02:16:26.660 that one of the things that follows from the experience machine is that people value things

02:16:31.780 independent from pleasure, such as the truth and being in contact with reality.

02:16:36.360 Yes, but the person...

02:16:37.120 That's what he's saying.

02:16:37.680 He's assuming the person is consciousness, though.

02:16:40.500 Yes.

02:16:40.640 That's baked in as the assumption.

02:16:42.300 Correct.

02:16:42.760 That's my point.

02:16:43.720 Okay.

02:16:44.060 That's what it's showing.

02:16:45.840 Oh, and if you don't...

02:16:46.680 Yeah, fine.

02:16:47.040 If you don't accept that theory of mind...

02:16:49.880 Do you see what I'm saying now?

02:16:50.820 Fine.

02:16:51.140 Okay, sure.

02:16:51.620 That follows, right?

02:16:52.700 It follows if you reject that he fundamentally are our brains.

02:16:55.680 So then in this case, yeah, so then in this case, the you, the actual you may not

02:17:03.320 be really experiencing that pleasure, just that your consciousness is.

02:17:07.440 I don't see a differential between the two.

02:17:09.440 Like, okay, in this reality, do you like steak?

02:17:12.460 In this reality, do I like steak?

02:17:13.640 Yeah, I do.

02:17:14.400 Okay, but in the matrix, could you hate steak?

02:17:17.200 Um, I don't think so.

02:17:19.720 I don't...

02:17:20.400 If I hated steak in that reality, but if you don't hold everything constant...

02:17:24.280 Yeah, the refutation to this, this one I'm saying is like the refutation to this...

02:17:27.800 Don't make my argument for me, Andrew.

02:17:29.240 I'm saying that...

02:17:29.780 No, I'm giving a refutation to the consciousness machine.

02:17:32.460 Okay.

02:17:32.800 What the refutation is, is like the reason people's intuition likely is against it

02:17:39.220 is because they feel like if their consciousness is what is going into the machine, this is all

02:17:43.620 intuitive, of course, and this is speculative, that they're in the matrix.

02:17:48.140 And tasty wheat, like you remember that scene in the matrix where it was like, does tasty

02:17:52.280 wheat taste like steak?

02:17:53.440 Sure.

02:17:53.580 Or does it taste like this, right?

02:17:54.960 Mm-hmm.

02:17:55.240 They want actual experience.

02:17:57.320 Yes.

02:17:57.660 Right?

02:17:57.880 Actual experience, not conscious experience.

02:17:59.920 So if your pleasure, whatever you consider pleasurable in the matrix may not be real.

02:18:04.660 People also might want their consciousness embodied and in the real world.

02:18:08.060 But if you ask that question a separate way, if you say you don't go into a pleasure machine,

02:18:13.440 but just the rest of your life you have pleasurable experiences, people's answers drastically

02:18:17.620 fucking change.

02:18:18.480 Of course they do.

02:18:18.840 That's why it's about consciousness.

02:18:20.720 And I...

02:18:21.120 Okay.

02:18:21.820 I don't see how that...

02:18:22.240 Do you understand now?

02:18:23.020 I don't see how that's relevant to the distinction that I'm making.

02:18:24.920 It's totally relevant because we're talking about who you is.

02:18:27.520 Okay.

02:18:27.980 We're having...

02:18:28.400 That's very far away from feminism.

02:18:29.800 I agree, but we went down this road because you brought up the fucking consciousness machine.

02:18:33.620 Sure.

02:18:33.800 And then tried to refute me when I said that's about consciousness and about who you is.

02:18:38.580 And a lot of people view themselves as their conscious experiences.

02:18:42.100 Think about it.

02:18:42.640 No, Andrew, fine.

02:18:43.360 Okay, well, we can do a thought experiment here.

02:18:45.500 If you were Andrew...

02:18:46.120 Nah.

02:18:46.620 Andrew...

02:18:46.960 Do you guys want to bring it back to feminism?

02:18:48.140 Yeah, let's do that.

02:18:49.020 Okay.

02:18:49.200 All right.

02:18:50.580 Before we do, though...

02:18:51.420 Another beer from the assistant.

02:18:52.740 Sure.

02:18:53.000 Let's get another beer for Andrew.

02:18:54.280 Would you like...

02:18:55.240 I'm good.

02:18:56.040 Chocolate milk or...

02:18:58.080 I'm good for now.

02:18:58.700 Okay.

02:18:58.880 Thank you.

02:18:59.220 All right.

02:18:59.440 We have a couple chats.

02:19:00.460 I'm going to let about...

02:19:01.780 We got about four or five chats to get through.

02:19:04.420 And then we'll move it back to feminism.

02:19:05.860 So, we have...

02:19:07.860 Z, Z, Z, Z, Glock, Tavius donated $100.

02:19:13.180 Oliver, the misandry apologist, what is a woman?

02:19:16.580 What are your pronouns?

02:19:18.620 What do you think of Z, Z, Z, Z, Z, Z, or other near pronouns?

02:19:23.460 Andrew, can you debate Oliver on forced doctrine?

02:19:26.540 Hang on.

02:19:26.820 And is he a misandrist?

02:19:28.120 I want to try something here just to do it.

02:19:31.560 I'm so convinced that I know the inside and outs of Oliver's...

02:19:36.940 All of Oliver's positions.

02:19:38.960 I would like to answer that question and then just see if you agree that that's what you believe.

02:19:43.480 We can do that.

02:19:43.980 Go ahead.

02:19:44.440 Which...

02:19:44.640 Yeah.

02:19:44.900 Okay.

02:19:45.280 Yeah.

02:19:45.640 Let's start.

02:19:46.060 And then the flip side.

02:19:47.540 Let's see if you can do that for me.

02:19:49.100 Of which one?

02:19:50.240 Yeah.

02:19:50.460 Pull it up.

02:19:51.580 Yeah.

02:19:51.780 I'll re-trigger it.

02:19:54.580 So, it's...

02:19:55.420 Leave it up.

02:19:56.060 Leave it up.

02:19:56.080 Leave it up.

02:19:56.600 Leave it up.

02:19:56.840 Leave it up.

02:19:56.920 Donated $100.

02:19:58.400 There's not really a way to leave it up.

02:19:59.300 Oliver, the misandry apologist, what is a woman?

02:20:01.680 What is a woman?

02:20:02.240 What are your pronouns?

02:20:03.860 What do you think of neopronouns?

02:20:04.840 What do you think of Z slash them slash Z or other neopronouns?

02:20:09.420 Andrew, can you debate Oliver on forced doctrine?

02:20:11.680 There's a lot there, so we'll try to be a misandrist.

02:20:14.280 Yeah.

02:20:14.920 So, let's start with Oliver is a misandry apologist.

02:20:19.760 That means nothing.

02:20:20.540 So, when it comes to a woman, what Oliver believes that a woman is, is that you can have two distinct positions here.

02:20:26.860 So, Oliver believes that a woman is, there's a scientific version of this, which would point to female, and he would agree with the idea of phenotypical pathways or with XY or with OVA versus sperm.

02:20:41.180 He would agree with all those things from a scientific standpoint.

02:20:43.260 Right.

02:20:43.720 But when it comes to what a woman is socially, it's going to be a kind of collaboration of traits based on social dynamics inside of any given society at any time.

02:20:51.860 And it's subject completely to change.

02:20:53.840 It's basically a socially constructed term.

02:20:56.140 It doesn't really point at anything.

02:20:57.940 It's, by the way, extremely complex to really make those determinations.

02:21:02.480 But it is more than a self-identification.

02:21:04.440 It really has to do with social traits between interpersonal dynamics of people.

02:21:08.040 Is that about right?

02:21:09.260 A little.

02:21:09.600 I think a little bit.

02:21:10.740 I think what you're leaving out largely is that there is a very, very important relational component to the woman question.

02:21:18.100 I'm not disagreeing that necessarily there is, like, it's entirely dependent on social.

02:21:24.140 You know what I mean?

02:21:24.720 Which is what I just said.

02:21:25.800 Well, I feel like you're placing a lot more emphasis on social than necessarily biological.

02:21:30.480 For example, so here's an example that I would bring up.

02:21:32.960 Well, that's just, that's just.

02:21:33.820 No, no, wait.

02:21:34.140 I'm not putting more emphasis.

02:21:35.560 I don't think it's wrong.

02:21:36.000 It just, you have to have a bigger descriptor there because when I point out biological, I can explain that quickly.

02:21:42.800 Sure.

02:21:43.180 And I think that it's, I think it would actually make sense for some women to view womanhood as biological and thus being like, hey, you know, it makes me feel a little weird if there are people who can't have the capacity for pregnancy who then have that.

02:21:54.260 So I think, and I don't think they're doing anything inherently wrong.

02:21:56.920 And the next, when it comes to forced doctrine, Oliver's position on forced doctrine is forced doctrine doesn't apply because it's just always going to be some people.

02:22:04.100 It's not all people.

02:22:04.940 That's going to be his position.

02:22:06.000 I promise you.

02:22:06.860 That's going to be his arguments.

02:22:08.060 No.

02:22:08.440 Fucking promise.

02:22:09.300 Let's do this.

02:22:10.140 We'll read the chats.

02:22:11.000 And then we'll, when we jump back into the feminism conversation, we'll start with forced doctrine.

02:22:16.940 We'll do that.

02:22:17.720 So Oliver, just to the chat though, what are your pronouns?

02:22:23.060 He, him.

02:22:24.080 What do you think about like the neo-pronouns?

02:22:25.800 Like Z, Zem, Zer.

02:22:26.920 He's fine with them.

02:22:27.860 No.

02:22:28.260 It's fucking confusing, man.

02:22:29.400 I think.

02:22:30.360 It's confusing.

02:22:31.380 Would you call somebody by him?

02:22:33.780 Yeah.

02:22:34.560 Would you?

02:22:35.680 The truth, Oliver.

02:22:36.640 No, I wouldn't.

02:22:37.900 Why not?

02:22:38.320 Because I, here's, here's, here's why I think so.

02:22:41.320 And I'll explain this.

02:22:42.120 And I talked a bit with Brian over text, why I think, or over DMs, why like, I think that

02:22:46.820 some of the identity politics stuff does break down is I think this leads to kind of like

02:22:51.680 a grammar police and also an ideological purity test.

02:22:56.580 So I think in terms of like neo-pronouns, it's like, how far can I push you to accept this?

02:23:01.060 It's all an ideological purity test, bro.

02:23:03.160 And I think that's not a good thing.

02:23:04.540 I think we should move away from ideological purity tests in terms of allowing people to

02:23:08.560 be members of a certain group or within a certain society.

02:23:11.040 Then how do you gatekeep your ideology?

02:23:12.880 I think, wait, I think you can gatekeep to an extent, but I don't think it should be if

02:23:16.600 you, if you agree with someone on 90% of things and they disagree on 10%, I don't think that

02:23:21.140 10% should be disqualifying from them being a general part of your movement or something

02:23:25.560 like that.

02:23:25.960 I think, I think that's a problem that the left has.

02:23:28.240 So I would, that's what I would say.

02:23:29.380 There were two more things here real quick.

02:23:32.580 Andrew, do you think he's a misandrist, Oliver?

02:23:34.880 Yes.

02:23:35.260 Okay.

02:23:35.760 And then Oliver, maybe quick answer to this, what is a woman?

02:23:40.040 But I don't think Oliver thinks he's a misandrist, to be fair.

02:23:42.980 No, I don't hate men.

02:23:44.500 Oliver, what is a woman?

02:23:46.160 I already described it many times.

02:23:47.540 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

02:23:48.940 It's not just a matter of hating men.

02:23:51.800 I would classify you as a person who worships women.

02:23:54.740 I don't worship women at all.

02:23:55.820 You worship them so much that you would prefer that they fuck other men rather than you so

02:24:00.540 that they don't, don't have any discount on experience when they fuck you.

02:24:04.040 No, no.

02:24:04.440 That's, that's women worship, bro.

02:24:05.920 That is not true.

02:24:06.720 That is not true.

02:24:08.000 I, I don't necessarily think, I think there is a happy medium.

02:24:11.020 I would not want to date someone.

02:24:12.400 A happy so they fuck some guys.

02:24:13.700 Sure.

02:24:14.200 Yeah, exactly.

02:24:15.220 To have some, wait, to have some experience.

02:24:16.800 There's woman worship, dude.

02:24:17.940 It's not woman worship.

02:24:18.500 Yes, it is.

02:24:19.240 No, it's not.

02:24:20.040 It's wanting someone who knows what they want.

02:24:22.180 Listen, you know what's funny is like the only one here who's ever

02:24:25.780 consistent is me, right?

02:24:28.700 So it's not just that, like men shouldn't be promiscuous either.

02:24:32.540 Sure.

02:24:33.060 Okay.

02:24:33.340 And this idea of like, uh, overwhelming male worship, men tend to reject it.

02:24:38.460 Like men themselves actually tend to reject it.

02:24:41.280 They're not looking for male worship.

02:24:43.280 Right.

02:24:43.820 But you though, for some reason you'll bite the craziest bullets for women.

02:24:48.240 And it's like, Oliver, do you honestly believe that if you looked in the camera right now

02:24:52.740 and said, I would totally prefer to, that my woman had been certified pre-fucked by other

02:24:58.560 men so that, so that, so hang on, but it's true.

02:25:02.080 It's, it's factually rhetoric.

02:25:04.280 Nice intuition.

02:25:04.960 You might, you might get upset with rhetoric here.

02:25:06.840 Nice intuition.

02:25:07.240 You might get upset with rhetoric, but it is factually true.

02:25:09.160 You would prefer that your woman certified pre-fucked because if she's certified pre-fucked,

02:25:13.960 she has the exact right experiences to, to have a comparison, to know that you're the

02:25:19.520 best, that, that is you trying to prove yourself to the goddess woman, dude.

02:25:23.960 No, actually, no, no, Andrew, I don't, I don't care about being the best, Andrew.

02:25:28.140 If this person is choosing me, then they are choosing me.

02:25:31.160 It is very possible that people choose partners who are not the best sexually.

02:25:35.820 Then why earlier did you say that you want your woman to think you're the best?

02:25:39.160 I think that's, I'm then Andrew, then I misspoke, okay?

02:25:42.740 Well, how many more fucking times are you going to retract your every position you have?

02:25:46.120 Andrew, Andrew, I don't want someone to think I'm the best.

02:25:48.740 I do want there to be some sort of.

02:25:49.260 You don't want your woman to think you're the best?

02:25:50.780 At sex?

02:25:51.960 Yeah, why not?

02:25:52.580 If I'm not, then I don't want her to think that.

02:25:54.580 Yeah, but, but here's the thing.

02:25:56.300 I can assure you there's one way where she'll always think you are.

02:25:59.140 She's the only one that you've ever been with.

02:26:00.840 And the problem with that is what?

02:26:03.080 I don't want to be with someone who's not had any experience outside of me.

02:26:06.780 So you want her to be certified pre-fucked, bro?

02:26:08.900 Okay, well, if you want to put it that way, I want someone who has life experiences outside of me

02:26:15.720 and has developed in such a way and had those experiences so that we can bond over that.

02:26:20.460 In a sense, Andrew, then maybe what I'm saying is I have had sex out of marriage.

02:26:25.480 I have done a lot of those things.

02:26:28.200 So I would want someone who has similar types of experiences.

02:26:31.500 Why?

02:26:32.620 What does that do for you exactly?

02:26:34.280 Because they're similar to me.

02:26:35.960 They're still similar to you.

02:26:37.760 By the way, I would argue that you're not very similar to any woman you've ever dated anyway.

02:26:42.040 No man really is.

02:26:43.340 Do you go get your fingernails done?

02:26:44.900 Do you get your hair done?

02:26:45.640 Is that the important part of being a man or a woman?

02:26:46.680 Hang on, hey, bro, I'm asking about similar interests, right?

02:26:50.240 Are the women you're with actually generally interested in like deep philosophy?

02:26:54.900 Yes.

02:26:55.520 Really?

02:26:55.920 Correct.

02:26:56.460 Absolutely.

02:26:56.820 So the last woman you dated had a background in philosophy?

02:26:59.140 Background in philosophy?

02:27:00.240 Officially dated.

02:27:01.100 No, she was into neuroscience.

02:27:02.260 Yeah, of course.

02:27:03.120 Okay.

02:27:03.460 Was she a neuroscientist though?

02:27:05.140 Or was she just dorking out about it?

02:27:06.680 In college, she was majoring in neuroscience.

02:27:09.460 Okay, she's majoring in neuroscience.

02:27:10.780 Correct, and she's going to go to med school.

02:27:11.680 So not deep in philosophy.

02:27:13.380 And let me ask you this.

02:27:14.220 It's still an intellectual endeavor.

02:27:15.900 Yeah, your shared interests, right?

02:27:17.640 Mm-hmm.

02:27:17.920 Like what did you actually like doing with her?

02:27:20.920 Having conversations.

02:27:21.840 I'd love talking with her.

02:27:22.980 Not just that.

02:27:23.820 Andrew, why are you trying to reduce-

02:27:24.740 I'm asking about shared interests.

02:27:26.080 Why are you trying to reduce that thing?

02:27:27.260 I said shared interests.

02:27:28.560 What shared interests?

02:27:29.800 We enjoyed the outdoors.

02:27:30.900 You enjoyed hiking and the outdoors.

02:27:32.560 Yes, of course.

02:27:33.580 We enjoyed having conversations.

02:27:34.980 We enjoyed having dinner together.

02:27:36.500 We enjoyed talking about things.

02:27:38.180 Like I don't-

02:27:39.100 I don't-

02:27:39.620 I get it.

02:27:40.320 Let me ask you this though.

02:27:41.680 Did she get her nails done?

02:27:43.320 I don't think she ever got her nails done.

02:27:45.480 She sometimes did her own nails.

02:27:47.160 Yeah, she did them.

02:27:48.060 Do you do your own nails?

02:27:49.240 I did sometimes during that time.

02:27:50.460 I let her paint my nails.

02:27:51.460 I'll admit it.

02:27:51.960 There's nothing against that.

02:27:53.240 What's wrong with that, Andrew?

02:27:56.380 I know there's something-

02:27:57.560 Yeah, what's wrong with that?

02:27:59.100 I think it is very insecure if you think that a man getting his nails done is somehow-

02:28:03.940 Is somehow like a-

02:28:05.140 Like a strike against his masculinity.

02:28:08.320 I think that's pretty insane.

02:28:10.720 I had no problem with it.

02:28:11.340 Did she paint them different colors?

02:28:12.620 I think it was mostly all blue or I think all red.

02:28:14.980 Did she put sparkles on them?

02:28:16.440 No, I don't think so.

02:28:17.020 Did she do your hair too?

02:28:17.940 Did she braid it?

02:28:18.500 Did she braid your hair, bro?

02:28:20.760 I'm not engaging.

02:28:21.120 Did she put a bow in your hair, bro?

02:28:22.140 I'm not engaging with your bad faith.

02:28:24.140 Why is that bad faith?

02:28:25.320 Because you're making fun of-

02:28:26.060 I'm not demasculizing.

02:28:27.520 I am not doing any sort of demasculization if it is the case.

02:28:31.640 In your view, you are.

02:28:32.620 What do you mean?

02:28:33.260 In your view, I'm not though.

02:28:34.580 Yeah, because your intentions matter in terms of the words that you're using towards me.

02:28:38.240 Wait a second.

02:28:39.380 There's no way for me to demasculate you.

02:28:41.820 You just admitted you got your nails painted.

02:28:43.280 Can I ask you some further non-demasculating things?

02:28:46.340 You can try to do that.

02:28:47.260 Did she braid your hair?

02:28:48.240 No.

02:28:49.000 Did she put a bow in it?

02:28:50.080 I'm not answering any of these more questions.

02:28:51.000 Did she put a bow in your hair?

02:28:52.260 No.

02:28:52.520 Did she ever put a bow in your fucking hair?

02:28:54.680 I'm not talking.

02:28:55.620 No, I'm not engaging with your hair.

02:28:56.440 Did you ever wear a dress?

02:28:58.240 I'm not engaging with your hair.

02:28:58.740 Have you ever worn a dress?

02:29:00.420 I'm not engaging with this, Andrew.

02:29:01.960 Ever?

02:29:02.320 This is a bad faith conversation.

02:29:03.480 What's bad faith?

02:29:04.340 Why are you asking me questions about my personal life?

02:29:05.260 How can a conversation be bad faith?

02:29:07.200 It would be arguments that are bad faith.

02:29:08.340 Your question is bad faith, Andrew.

02:29:10.560 Questions can't be bad faith.

02:29:11.960 What do you mean?

02:29:12.500 Oh, my God.

02:29:13.040 They can be loaded.

02:29:13.940 Yeah.

02:29:14.320 Are you saying questions can't be rhetorically intended to do something, and that intention

02:29:18.060 could be bad faith?

02:29:19.160 What's bad faith about this?

02:29:20.140 When you say getting your nails painted does not hurt anybody's masculinity, right?

02:29:26.840 It doesn't.

02:29:27.280 Then why wouldn't you answer questions about other criteria?

02:29:29.900 Because you are trying to paint me in a light for the audience.

02:29:33.260 Yeah.

02:29:33.680 Why do you care?

02:29:34.720 You just told them that none of it is demasculating.

02:29:37.680 It isn't.

02:29:38.260 Then why not answer the questions?

02:29:39.800 Okay.

02:29:40.060 What are your fucking questions?

02:29:40.840 Great.

02:29:41.080 Bow and hair.

02:29:41.540 Have you ever worn a dress?

02:29:42.680 I have not worn a dress.

02:29:43.460 No.

02:29:43.680 Okay.

02:29:44.060 Have you ever worn high heels?

02:29:45.660 No.

02:29:46.400 Okay.

02:29:46.640 Have you ever dressed up like a woman?

02:29:47.860 No.

02:29:49.040 So the only thing you've ever done is get your nails done?

02:29:51.760 Yes.

02:29:52.080 I once had my hair put up in a thing, like a clip.

02:29:55.760 I don't know.

02:29:56.080 You can put a clip up like that.

02:29:57.680 Not a bow.

02:29:58.380 It's a bow.

02:29:59.200 It's the same as a bow.

02:30:00.280 No, it's not.

02:30:00.680 They put the hair clip in?

02:30:01.860 Hair clip in.

02:30:02.320 Yeah.

02:30:02.420 I've done that.

02:30:03.240 It's funny.

02:30:04.120 Okay.

02:30:04.480 What about makeup?

02:30:05.100 They put makeup on you?

02:30:06.020 I did theater for a long time, so I did do stage makeup a lot.

02:30:09.160 Did women apply makeup to your face to, like, lipstick and things like this?

02:30:15.780 Not lipstick.

02:30:16.520 No.

02:30:16.820 No.

02:30:17.180 Okay.

02:30:17.500 It would be foundation.

02:30:18.320 It would be concealer.

02:30:19.500 I was just curious.

02:30:20.200 We'll let the rest of the chats come through.

02:30:25.020 Riles donated $100.

02:30:27.300 Thank you.

02:30:27.960 Oliver, your position appears to be that being born a male means you are inherently obligated

02:30:33.260 to serve females.

02:30:33.860 It sure does.

02:30:35.000 If you are born a female, you are entitled to be served by males.

02:30:39.520 Is this fair?

02:30:40.800 Your response, Oliver?

02:30:42.440 I'll respond to this.

02:30:43.400 It is not the case that that is what I'm arguing.

02:30:45.580 I'm saying that those who are stronger have an obligation to protect those who are weaker.

02:30:49.380 I'm acknowledging that there is an overlap in who is stronger and who is weaker.

02:30:54.420 An individual man is not obligated to serve anyone.

02:31:00.980 There should be no idea of service.

02:31:03.200 There should be people partnering in a relationship.

02:31:05.940 No, that's not what you said.

02:31:07.220 What did I say?

02:31:07.720 He said that if it is the case that a man is stronger than a woman, the exact words

02:31:13.240 were ought.

02:31:14.420 Ought.

02:31:15.040 Protect is different.

02:31:15.740 That's serve.

02:31:16.340 No, it's not.

02:31:17.180 You're conflating two things.

02:31:18.300 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

02:31:18.860 How is that not service, bro?

02:31:20.480 How is that not service?

02:31:22.120 And all the things I can think of that are serving, that is the one.

02:31:26.020 Who are they serving then?

02:31:28.320 At that point, they would be serving the interest of whoever it is they're protecting.

02:31:31.360 It's not going to be serving the interest of society because it is in the societal interest

02:31:35.460 that those who are stronger.

02:31:37.600 Is it also in the individual interest?

02:31:39.360 Of course.

02:31:39.960 Then you're serving the individual and society.

02:31:42.240 Okay.

02:31:42.500 You're serving everyone in that sense.

02:31:43.900 But you're serving the individual and it's going to mostly be men serving the individual,

02:31:48.060 right?

02:31:48.800 Men should protect other men, too.

02:31:49.940 So it's service.

02:31:51.160 Yeah.

02:31:51.700 And women are going to primarily benefit from that service?

02:31:54.520 And also be hurt by men, yeah.

02:31:56.300 But they're primarily going to benefit from the service.

02:31:59.660 Men, too.

02:32:00.320 But no, not men, too.

02:32:02.320 Men actually would primarily not benefit from the service, right?

02:32:05.800 Okay.

02:32:06.320 Right?

02:32:06.920 No.

02:32:07.080 Oliver?

02:32:07.660 No?

02:32:08.000 Oh, no?

02:32:08.400 Okay.

02:32:08.900 All right.

02:32:09.260 Next chat.

02:32:09.700 Guys, if you want to get one in, we just have a few more, then we'll continue on with

02:32:12.820 the discussion.

02:32:15.400 Streamlabs.com slash whatever if you want to get a message in.

02:32:18.040 And just really quickly, because we have a few people via Venmo through Cash App, whatever

02:32:22.980 pod, Venmo, Cash App, Nafia, thank for the 20, Bert, thank for the 10, Thomas, thank

02:32:27.340 for the three.

02:32:27.960 Those are on Cash App.

02:32:28.980 Blue?

02:32:29.820 Blue?

02:32:30.320 Instead of like, why didn't she do pink?

02:32:32.520 Are you talking about the nails?

02:32:33.720 Move on, Andrew.

02:32:34.620 Well, I'm serious.

02:32:35.700 Move on, Andrew.

02:32:36.160 If they did pink, that wouldn't be demasculating, right?

02:32:38.400 No, it wouldn't.

02:32:39.060 Move on.

02:32:40.040 You just don't like pink?

02:32:41.400 No, move on, Andrew.

02:32:42.660 You don't like pink?

02:32:42.940 This is fucking ridiculous.

02:32:44.480 What's ridiculous about it?

02:32:45.380 Why are you so focused on the color I painted my nails?

02:32:47.020 I was just curious.

02:32:47.980 I'm making friendly conversation.

02:32:49.560 Uh-huh.

02:32:50.460 I'm being nice.

02:32:51.220 Is that bad faith, Andrew?

02:32:52.520 Answer me honestly.

02:32:52.920 I'm being nice.

02:32:53.700 No, answer me honestly.

02:32:54.580 Is that bad faith?

02:32:55.160 Of course not.

02:32:55.960 Uh-huh.

02:32:56.460 Well, I'm just curious why you chose blue.

02:32:58.340 You're actually trying to be nice, yeah.

02:32:58.940 Well, blue seems kind of masculine-ish.

02:33:00.820 Mm-hmm.

02:33:01.100 Like a more masculine color than pink.

02:33:03.080 That's all.

02:33:03.680 I'm dumb.

02:33:05.020 I'm just curious.

02:33:05.760 Do you want to ask me about my nails, Andrew?

02:33:06.940 You want to?

02:33:07.280 Have you ever painted your nails?

02:33:08.080 You know, it's possible.

02:33:10.880 Not like in a weird way, but like-

02:33:13.980 What do you mean weird way, Brian?

02:33:15.080 What do you mean weird way?

02:33:16.280 I don't think there is a weird way.

02:33:16.900 What are you trying to say?

02:33:17.500 What are you trying to say?

02:33:18.260 No, I'm asking you.

02:33:19.360 Hold on.

02:33:20.000 I'm asking you what you mean by the language you're using.

02:33:22.400 Hey, look.

02:33:22.420 Hey, he's trying to debate me now.

02:33:23.760 Look, I'm just the moderator.

02:33:25.000 I'm just the host here.

02:33:25.660 I'm just asking.

02:33:26.340 I'm just the host here.

02:33:26.500 I was asking you a question.

02:33:27.620 Look, I might have been, you know, when you're in high school, some girl who has a crush on

02:33:33.620 you, she's trying to, you know, she's like, let me paint your nails.

02:33:38.340 It might have happened.

02:33:40.340 Okay.

02:33:40.640 So, Oliver, you know, I feel a bit offended by Andrew's inquisition towards you.

02:33:45.660 Now you got the moderator on your side.

02:33:47.160 Yeah, does that make you feel better?

02:33:48.320 I definitely do not have the moderator on my side.

02:33:50.820 It's team Oliver right now.

02:33:52.520 Okay, let me let the chats through.

02:33:53.740 We got Set Wizard here.

02:33:56.260 So, her underscore wizard donated $100.

02:34:00.080 Why do you assume that the 10 plus people she slept with were any good?

02:34:04.280 Maybe they were all bad.

02:34:06.180 You would need to have her sleep with known guys who heft well to give her that knowledge.

02:34:10.940 Most men are bad.

02:34:11.860 Yeah, that's a good point.

02:34:12.800 Wouldn't you want the sample selection size to be with men that you knew fucked really well?

02:34:18.220 Because then that would be the best way for you to know that she had the comparative experience.

02:34:21.660 I wouldn't want her to make the decisions of who she has sex with.

02:34:23.980 I don't know.

02:34:24.200 Yeah, but you could guide her.

02:34:25.300 You could be like, listen, this guy over here has a reputation.

02:34:28.120 I want to date you in 10 years.

02:34:29.700 So, just in those 10 years, I want you to fuck this person, this person, this person, this person.

02:34:33.940 No, I'm not doing that.

02:34:34.820 No, no, no.

02:34:34.840 You don't have to do that.

02:34:35.380 You could just be like, look, I have a lot of interest in you, right?

02:34:38.600 But I know that there's at least two guys who have a great reputation for fucking really well.

02:34:42.840 No.

02:34:43.680 Andrew, no.

02:34:44.260 No?

02:34:44.560 Okay.

02:34:45.180 No.

02:34:45.580 If I had an interest in the woman, I would want to date this woman.

02:34:49.040 Yeah, but I mean, what if she doesn't have the right comparative?

02:34:51.780 You know, I'm just saying.

02:34:54.080 By the way.

02:34:55.580 I don't know what you're upset about.

02:34:56.940 It's your view, dude.

02:34:58.120 It's your view.

02:34:59.400 Like, that's your view.

02:35:00.580 No, it's not.

02:35:01.020 You just need to own your fucking view, dude.

02:35:02.820 That's not my view.

02:35:03.640 It is your view.

02:35:04.440 No, it's not.

02:35:04.980 Your view is that you would rather have your chick certified pre-fucked.

02:35:08.000 Because otherwise, she might be missing out, Oliver.

02:35:10.120 It's not missing out.

02:35:10.880 I don't want someone who is in a vastly different life experience area than I am.

02:35:16.700 I don't want someone who is so...

02:35:17.840 So, she loves philosophy, but she's a virgin, Oliver.

02:35:20.320 Okay.

02:35:21.240 Tara, this is...

02:35:22.540 Time out.

02:35:22.800 It wouldn't...

02:35:23.660 Andrew, you are assuming all else is equal.

02:35:26.420 I am not 100% opposed to dating someone like that.

02:35:30.880 But I'm saying that if that person has had sexual experiences, like I've had sexual experiences,

02:35:37.040 then we're more on the same level.

02:35:39.600 And that's what I want.

02:35:40.880 Well, here's the thing that I reject, right?

02:35:43.240 Okay.

02:35:43.500 So, I don't think, for instance, that if a man, right?

02:35:49.500 Like, let's say he's had 100 women and then settles down with a virgin, right?

02:35:53.580 Yeah.

02:35:53.860 Wouldn't that actually be comparatively, like, awesome?

02:35:56.420 Because that would assure that he's better at sex, from your view?

02:35:59.500 What?

02:36:00.100 Yeah.

02:36:00.400 Like, if he had sex with a lot of women, he's probably better than if he had sex with only

02:36:04.420 one woman.

02:36:06.160 Right?

02:36:07.000 Sure.

02:36:07.400 Okay, so if that's the case, if he pounds a virgin, right, then you can assure that he's

02:36:12.680 not really, she's not really missing out on the experience, because he's probably really

02:36:16.220 good, right?

02:36:16.800 No.

02:36:16.900 So, really, from your view, men should have sex with, like, 100 fucking women and then

02:36:20.920 get a virgin.

02:36:21.760 No.

02:36:21.980 Because then...

02:36:22.800 No.

02:36:23.160 ...all the experience is packaged into one.

02:36:24.720 You're assuming one.

02:36:26.780 The point was, she knows what she likes.

02:36:29.220 Yeah.

02:36:29.400 Not that he's really good at sex.

02:36:31.520 Don't you think that she's going to like a man who's really good at sex?

02:36:34.360 Women are all different, okay?

02:36:36.280 They don't all have the same sexual desires.

02:36:38.680 Yeah, but they're going to definitely want a man who's good at sex.

02:36:41.300 Uh-huh.

02:36:41.580 Sure.

02:36:42.520 I don't...

02:36:43.760 I would not want to date someone who was not in the same life experience as me.

02:36:47.820 And maybe that's because when I think of people, Andrew, who are virgins, I think of people

02:36:52.400 who are much younger than me.

02:36:54.140 Why?

02:36:55.160 Because.

02:36:55.680 I don't...

02:36:56.060 This is, like, feels like the same argument of people who are like, oh...

02:36:58.580 What's wrong with dating someone much younger than you anyway?

02:37:00.480 Ugh.

02:37:01.520 Okay.

02:37:02.740 Honestly, what's wrong with dating...

02:37:04.060 Like, if you date an 18-year-old, what's the problem?

02:37:06.280 Dating an 18-year-old?

02:37:07.640 Yeah.

02:37:07.920 At a different stage of life.

02:37:09.260 So?

02:37:10.420 What do you mean?

02:37:10.940 Why do you have to be at the same stage of life to date someone?

02:37:13.140 That's stupid.

02:37:13.600 Because I think you should want to date someone who's on your level.

02:37:16.260 Yeah, but people have...

02:37:17.380 Look, people fall in love, have massively dissimilar interests, different IQs, different everything,

02:37:22.900 and absolutely love each other.

02:37:24.800 Mm-hmm.

02:37:25.680 What's the fucking problem with that?

02:37:27.060 I don't think there's a problem with it when you get a lot older, but I do think, like,

02:37:30.880 men of your age dating women who are, like, in their late teens, even if it's legal, is

02:37:35.900 weird.

02:37:36.460 Why is it?

02:37:36.880 Well, weird.

02:37:37.460 That's quite the argument.

02:37:38.620 Are you...

02:37:38.780 Oh, it's weird.

02:37:39.600 Hold on.

02:37:40.000 Hold on.

02:37:40.420 Weird.

02:37:41.440 Are you arguing that there is nothing problematic whatsoever at all with...

02:37:45.800 How old are you?

02:37:46.180 Like, 50?

02:37:47.340 Uh, well, no, I'm younger than you, probably.

02:37:50.380 How old are you?

02:37:51.540 I'm 21.

02:37:52.380 Oh.

02:37:52.540 22.

02:37:53.180 I'm sorry.

02:37:53.460 Oh, okay.

02:37:54.060 That accounts for the stupidity.

02:37:55.960 No, no, no.

02:37:56.500 I'm 41.

02:37:57.200 Nice.

02:37:57.500 41.

02:37:57.860 41.

02:37:58.080 41.

02:37:58.340 Mm-hmm.

02:37:58.640 Do you think nothing wrong with you if you wanted to go by UC Santa Barbara right now

02:38:02.760 and, you know...

02:38:03.600 What would be wrong with me dating an 18-year-old woman who wanted to date me?

02:38:07.420 Why would that be problematic?

02:38:08.520 What's strange about it?

02:38:10.200 Because you are in different life experiences than she is.

02:38:13.160 She is vastly...

02:38:14.080 Do you think 41-year-old women are going to be...

02:38:16.840 Like, let's say I wanted children.

02:38:18.660 Don't you think I should date younger if I wanted to have a lot of children?

02:38:20.740 Can you date an 18-year-old to have children?

02:38:22.340 Well, you're going to be able to give me the most amount of children, right?

02:38:25.360 Okay.

02:38:25.960 Can you tell me what's wrong with that, Oliver?

02:38:27.400 Yes.

02:38:27.840 What?

02:38:28.160 Because you're taking advantage of someone.

02:38:29.540 Oh, taking advantage.

02:38:30.880 Yes.

02:38:31.300 So let me get this right.

02:38:32.260 Someone who's much younger than you...

02:38:33.020 You agree that I have tons more resources than the average 18-year-old woman?

02:38:36.280 Correct.

02:38:37.020 Huge amounts more resources.

02:38:38.200 Correct.

02:38:38.520 The power differential is very different.

02:38:39.160 And if it is the case that that woman gets all the beneficiary of all of those resources, right, plus the added benefit, that if she stayed with me, let's say, for like 25 years, it is true that I could die much earlier than her and she would be set with mass amount of resources.

02:38:54.100 And our children would have way more resources than the average 18-year-old couple's children.

02:38:58.880 I think it's weird that it's a 41-year-old.

02:39:00.100 Can you answer my fucking question, Oliver?

02:39:01.720 Answer to my argument.

02:39:03.220 Isn't it the case that if I'm 41, I have more resources she benefits from?

02:39:08.140 Sure.

02:39:08.580 Isn't it the case that if I'm 41, she's 18, the chances that our children are going to have more resources than if she had children with another 18-year-old, our children are likely going to have way more resources, right, Oliver?

02:39:20.380 I think having a differential like that is going to introduce a lot of other problems.

02:39:23.480 Can you answer the fucking question, Oliver?

02:39:24.240 I don't know, Andrew.

02:39:25.140 You don't know?

02:39:25.680 No.

02:39:25.820 You don't know if the average 41-year-old has children with an 18-year-old that that 18-year-old is going to have more resources for their children than with the average 18-year-old, Oliver?

02:39:35.600 I think she's going to be traumatized as fuck.

02:39:37.080 Can you answer the fucking question, Oliver?

02:39:38.940 I'm not interested in like your emotional state.

02:39:41.820 You're also not interested in the emotional state of 18-year-olds if you want to date them.

02:39:45.260 That's insane.

02:39:45.640 Answer the question.

02:39:46.380 What if their emotional state is they love it?

02:39:48.940 No.

02:39:49.900 No?

02:39:50.640 Mm-mm.

02:39:51.160 You should not date someone that young.

02:39:52.020 Are you going to answer my question?

02:39:55.400 Would the average 18-year-old woman who had children with a man who was 41, would those children have more or less resources probably on average?

02:40:06.000 Do you think the resources is easy?

02:40:06.920 Answer the fucking question.

02:40:08.300 Sure, in terms of pure monetary thing.

02:40:10.560 But that tells us nothing, Andrew.

02:40:13.800 Why does this woman?

02:40:14.520 That tells us nothing.

02:40:15.160 So this woman can vote?

02:40:17.560 Sure.

02:40:17.960 But she can't choose her partner?

02:40:20.320 Can and should are different things.

02:40:22.520 Should 18-year-olds vote?

02:40:24.220 Yes, Andrew.

02:40:24.960 But they shouldn't be able to choose their partners?

02:40:26.720 They can choose their partners.

02:40:28.220 Just because someone makes a choice and can make a choice doesn't mean that you should make that choice.

02:40:32.080 So let me get this right.

02:40:33.760 For a societal prescription, do you think that 18-year-olds should be able to nullify a 41-year-old's vote?

02:40:40.240 Yes.

02:40:41.100 Okay, wait a second.

02:40:42.180 That's really weird.

02:40:43.600 Why should an 18-year-old who you claim is at a different stage of life and doesn't know as much as a 41-year-old and can't compete with that 41-year-old's power dynamics because they're so much more intelligent should be able to nullify his vote?

02:40:54.820 Why should they be able to nullify that person's vote, Oliver?

02:40:57.460 Everyone should have a vote.

02:40:58.560 And I'm not going to argue about you with women having the right to vote.

02:41:00.880 Answer the fucking question.

02:41:01.200 I will answer it.

02:41:01.960 And I'm telling you I'm not going any further on this.

02:41:03.940 I'm going further on this.

02:41:04.940 Okay, well then I'm not going to answer the question.

02:41:05.680 I'm not giving you a choice, Oliver.

02:41:07.060 You don't get to run, Oliver.

02:41:08.160 No, I'm not.

02:41:09.040 I don't care what you want, Oliver.

02:41:10.200 It's a debate, Oliver.

02:41:11.400 I'm not going to justify why women have the right to vote.

02:41:12.880 I don't give a fuck.

02:41:13.880 I want to know, Oliver.

02:41:15.160 Oliver, why should they be able to nullify the vote of a man?

02:41:18.660 Because it's not nullifying.

02:41:20.220 They are both...

02:41:20.800 If they vote against me, you nullify my vote.

02:41:22.340 Okay, and everyone nullifies other people's votes all the time.

02:41:25.280 No, they don't.

02:41:26.480 No, they don't.

02:41:27.580 What you are voting...

02:41:28.200 Yes, if I vote against you, I nullify your vote.

02:41:30.060 If 40 million people vote for Trump with me, are they nullifying my vote?

02:41:33.180 Oh my God.

02:41:33.760 There are always people who will nullify your vote.

02:41:36.160 That's not...

02:41:36.600 Everybody nullifies everyone's vote, Oliver.

02:41:38.760 Okay, I'm sorry that you took that statement.

02:41:40.640 So if 40 million people vote with me, are they nullifying my vote or enhancing my political power?

02:41:46.300 Yeah, okay, sure.

02:41:47.560 Okay, congrats.

02:41:48.780 You won the language game.

02:41:49.700 Okay, so now back to this.

02:41:51.000 Okay, everyone is governed under the system of laws, and everyone is affected by our system of governance.

02:41:57.820 Thus, everyone should be represented politically in our government and have their voice heard.

02:42:03.860 They would still be represented the same way 16-year-olds.

02:42:06.900 Wait, what do you mean?

02:42:07.420 Wait, one second.

02:42:08.620 Adults.

02:42:10.420 Oh, they're adults, but they can't pick a partner.

02:42:12.060 Not that it's weird or IT gives you the ICK.

02:42:19.140 Sorry, did we...

02:42:20.640 I'll let the...

02:42:21.800 I'll let the first part...

02:42:27.740 Okay, I'll just let the beginning part.

02:42:35.780 Zig Zig Zig L'Octavius donated $69.

02:42:39.540 Articulate an actual argument against Age Gap's soy boy, Oliver.

02:42:43.960 Not that it's weird or IT gives you the ICK.

02:42:47.580 I think it's...

02:42:47.880 I want to hear about the fucking ICK.

02:42:49.040 I want to hear an argument.

02:42:50.040 I think it's really weird that you want to have sex with 18-year-olds.

02:42:52.940 Why?

02:42:53.660 Because that's really fucking weird.

02:42:55.040 Why would that be...

02:42:55.600 That doesn't mean anything.

02:42:57.000 Power differential, Andrew.

02:42:57.420 I think it's really fucking weird that you endorse homosexuality.

02:42:59.820 That's fucking weird.

02:43:00.740 That's fine.

02:43:01.080 Can you tell me...

02:43:01.880 Can you give me an argument for why it's problematic or immoral?

02:43:05.260 Can you do it or not, Oliver?

02:43:06.140 I just did it, Andrew.

02:43:07.140 What is it?

02:43:07.900 They are in a very different stage of life than you.

02:43:10.200 Then why should they be able to vote against me?

02:43:11.680 Because people are always in different stages of life, and they're voting differently.

02:43:16.380 What do you...

02:43:16.940 I don't...

02:43:17.340 People are always in different stages of life, and they're dating each other.

02:43:20.100 Should someone be able to spend money differently than you?

02:43:23.080 Well, of course...

02:43:23.820 Yeah.

02:43:24.100 My argument is that that's fine.

02:43:25.700 Okay.

02:43:25.960 Your argument is that ICK.

02:43:27.320 I'm confused.

02:43:27.920 Then you're saying, because like an 18-year-old can buy something at a restaurant, and you

02:43:32.580 can also buy something at a restaurant, that therefore both of you are in the same stage

02:43:36.880 of life and can date each other.

02:43:38.380 Well, first of all, I would argue that men and the way that they psychologically have relationships

02:43:43.900 with women is different than how women psychologically have relationships with men.

02:43:47.740 That's one.

02:43:48.600 The second is, is that if this woman is 18 years old, she's an adult by your metric

02:43:53.120 and my metric, but somehow she's barred from dating a man who would give her...

02:43:57.040 Not barred.

02:43:57.240 Not barred.

02:43:58.160 It's a bad idea.

02:43:59.340 Why is it a bad idea?

02:44:00.260 I just explained it because you were in very different life stages.

02:44:03.540 I've said this multiple times.

02:44:04.620 And do you think you have data to back that up?

02:44:06.280 Power differentials.

02:44:07.500 Yeah.

02:44:07.640 Do you think you have data to back that up?

02:44:09.520 Data for what?

02:44:10.560 That age gap relationships are problematic?

02:44:13.400 Sure.

02:44:14.320 You have data?

02:44:14.860 I don't have the data off the top of my head right now, but I would be shocked.

02:44:18.360 I would be shocked.

02:44:19.580 Yeah.

02:44:19.880 Here's this.

02:44:20.520 I'll give you the data.

02:44:21.620 The most comprehensive study ever done on this was done in the UK, and they took all marriages,

02:44:26.340 which have ever happened inside of the United Kingdom for the last hundred years and did

02:44:32.260 a comparison by decade, by decade, by decade.

02:44:34.700 And you know what they found out?

02:44:35.900 They found out that there was no more likelihood or less the likelihood of divorce, right?

02:44:40.200 And that the satisfaction rates were higher.

02:44:42.060 Okay.

02:44:42.340 Well, divorce is interesting because if someone is entirely financially dependent on the other

02:44:45.800 person, which I think is largely the case, it would be if you are 41 and dating someone

02:44:49.940 who's 18, it might be a little difficult for them to leave that marriage.

02:44:53.300 What's wrong with them financially dependent on your husband?

02:44:55.800 I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong.

02:44:57.940 I'm saying it's harder for them to...

02:44:59.540 You're pointing to a lack of divorce rates.

02:45:01.480 No, it's super easy for women to leave.

02:45:02.660 They have years to plan for it.

02:45:04.300 Do you think they're getting divorced at 18?

02:45:06.240 I'm not saying they're getting divorced at 18.

02:45:07.460 What are you talking about then?

02:45:08.340 I also don't think they should be marrying someone who's 41 at 18.

02:45:11.060 Should they be marrying an 18-year-old at 18?

02:45:12.960 They should be marrying anyone at 18.

02:45:14.800 So you don't think that women should get married at 18?

02:45:16.980 At 18?

02:45:17.600 Probably not.

02:45:18.180 I think that's probably too early for most people.

02:45:20.620 19?

02:45:21.520 20s, probably.

02:45:22.400 There's no universal for every single person.

02:45:24.360 So then a 20-year-old with a 41-year-old?

02:45:25.740 That's okay.

02:45:26.500 There's...

02:45:27.060 Andrew, I'm not...

02:45:30.440 Just because I can't draw a specific line, we've done this before, doesn't mean that

02:45:34.220 a line doesn't exist somewhere.

02:45:35.400 I just want to know...

02:45:36.340 Can I just keep walking you back?

02:45:37.260 Like, how crazy can we get?

02:45:39.100 Let's put the law aside.

02:45:40.280 Let's say you could...

02:45:41.020 I mean, technically the age of consent in some states is like 16 or 14.

02:45:44.540 Not the marriageable age.

02:45:45.800 Well, sure, not marriageable.

02:45:46.640 But then do you think it would be wrong for someone to have sex of your age with someone

02:45:49.320 who's 16 or 14?

02:45:50.320 Of course.

02:45:51.040 Wrong?

02:45:51.740 Yeah, and I can give you the demonstrable reasons why.

02:45:54.760 Okay.

02:45:55.140 One, I would base it on faith, right?

02:45:57.460 So I would utilize Christian ethics and say that that was wrong, and here's why.

02:46:01.200 If you look at reproduction in women, guess when...

02:46:04.440 Finally, the reproductive trap is the most developed that it's ever going to be.

02:46:08.320 What age would you think that was?

02:46:11.800 You tell me, Andrew.

02:46:12.460 I'm sure it's super young, which is going to justify...

02:46:14.700 It's 18.

02:46:15.200 Yeah.

02:46:15.540 18 is when their reproductive body is at its zenith, right?

02:46:25.460 Meaning...

02:46:25.780 I've heard people say 16.

02:46:26.980 I've heard this argument used for 16 as well.

02:46:28.560 It is true that they are...

02:46:31.020 But they have way more health complications.

02:46:33.360 They're better than a 15-year-old or a 14-year-old, I guess.

02:46:36.640 But at 18 and above, there's no greater health complications, which happen in childbirth, than

02:46:42.160 if they're 20, 21, 22, 23.

02:46:44.240 At 17, there is.

02:46:45.400 16, there is.

02:46:46.140 15, there is.

02:46:46.800 Because of the developmental stages of the woman.

02:46:49.120 So that's one.

02:46:50.020 Hang on.

02:46:50.280 There could be exceptions, though.

02:46:50.980 That's a utilitarian argument.

02:46:51.820 There could be exceptions, though, right?

02:46:52.720 The second is the Christian ethics argument.

02:46:54.360 Okay.

02:46:54.760 And then...

02:46:55.280 I mean, I can keep going.

02:46:56.820 There's actually really good reason to set the precedent at 18 years old instead of 16 or 15.

02:47:01.940 And I'm glad that you, like most leftists, bring this up.

02:47:04.960 You try to reduce it down.

02:47:06.160 But there's actually really great reasons from both sides why we would want 18 to be the age.

02:47:11.240 And on top of that, let me just point this out.

02:47:13.620 If they're allowed to vote, they can join the military, right?

02:47:16.880 They can do all of these fucking various things.

02:47:19.140 They can sign contracts.

02:47:20.460 But you say that they can't date somebody who's 40 or 41.

02:47:23.300 Hang on.

02:47:23.680 Hang on.

02:47:24.240 You say shouldn't.

02:47:25.520 You say shouldn't.

02:47:26.420 But what are the negative outcomes?

02:47:27.980 What are the negative outcomes, then?

02:47:29.220 Negative outcomes of dating someone who's a lot older than you?

02:47:31.940 Then let's compare them to the positive outcomes.

02:47:33.720 Sure.

02:47:34.060 So if we look at from what I...

02:47:36.040 Now, granted, I don't have a ton of data right now, Andrew.

02:47:38.680 So I'm not going to cite direct data.

02:47:40.300 So what's the negative outcomes?

02:47:41.020 But it's very easy for someone to get groomed in that type of relationship in which someone

02:47:44.540 is a lot older than them and they are swooning over them and they are completely blinded

02:47:49.980 by everything.

02:47:50.680 I can't say that?

02:47:51.400 No, no, no.

02:47:51.740 It's totally fine.

02:47:52.380 Just for the sake of the conversation, though, can you just clarify grooming?

02:47:55.640 Just so we understand what you're talking about when you say grooming.

02:47:58.220 I'm happy to do that.

02:47:59.060 It's basically just this idea of when you're emotionally priming someone or you're going

02:48:04.420 after someone who is much less emotionally developed than you are for the sake of manipulating

02:48:10.780 them or being in a sense that you are much more developed than they are.

02:48:15.460 Got it.

02:48:15.800 And do men, would you argue that men, have trouble with displays of emotion, empathy,

02:48:21.640 and various things like this?

02:48:22.780 Sure.

02:48:23.380 And that women have a higher emotional intelligence?

02:48:26.000 I don't think that's necessarily the case.

02:48:28.780 I think in certain cases it is.

02:48:29.320 You don't think women have a higher emotional intelligence?

02:48:31.160 I think largely they do, yes.

02:48:32.220 Okay.

02:48:32.620 So then women who have the higher emotional intelligence and men who have repressed emotion,

02:48:36.860 if they're dating, hang on.

02:48:37.980 I also don't think.

02:48:38.760 If they're dating, isn't the woman in this situation of power here?

02:48:42.680 Nice, Andrew.

02:48:43.140 I don't think that 41-year-old women should also date 18-year-old men.

02:48:47.460 So I'm being consistent here.

02:48:48.900 Why not?

02:48:50.780 Okay.

02:48:51.100 I want to move on to something else.

02:48:51.960 I don't care.

02:48:52.580 I want to finish this.

02:48:53.320 No, I'm not.

02:48:54.000 I don't care.

02:48:54.620 I want to finish it.

02:48:55.400 I'm not going to say anything else.

02:48:56.000 Stop running, bro.

02:48:56.840 No, I'm not going to say anything else.

02:48:57.440 Stop fucking running.

02:48:58.640 Stop running.

02:48:59.560 You're right here having a debate about your views, especially when it comes on feminism.

02:49:04.580 A big feminist talking point is that men are predatory if they're older men and they

02:49:08.680 want to date younger women.

02:49:09.760 That's a massive talking point.

02:49:11.200 There's no way for you to run from it.

02:49:12.600 Now justify the fucking view.

02:49:14.800 It's fucking weird, dude.

02:49:15.960 That doesn't mean shit.

02:49:17.340 Why don't you date a 41-year-old?

02:49:19.240 You are 41.

02:49:21.360 Why would you not date a 41-year-old?

02:49:22.360 What if you want to have a bunch of kids?

02:49:24.140 Then you can date someone who's younger, but why would you want to date someone who's

02:49:27.060 fresh out of high school?

02:49:28.640 Well, wait a second.

02:49:29.500 What if the age of high school ended at 15?

02:49:31.860 Oh, okay.

02:49:32.520 By the way, let me ask you this, right?

02:49:34.320 You think that it's weird because they're freshly out of high school?

02:49:36.920 Sure.

02:49:37.380 So are the fucking men that 18-year-olds are dating at 18, aren't they?

02:49:40.780 Yeah, and they're in a similar stage of development.

02:49:41.920 Why is it?

02:49:42.460 It's weird.

02:49:43.280 Why would a woman want to date a man who's fresh out of high school?

02:49:45.640 Because she's also out of high school, dude.

02:49:47.100 What the fuck?

02:49:47.680 That's like dating your brother.

02:49:49.280 No, wait.

02:49:49.680 What?

02:49:50.060 Yeah, it's like dating your brother.

02:49:52.780 It's stupid rhetoric.

02:49:53.760 Hey, Andrew.

02:49:54.400 Yeah.

02:49:54.500 That's not a justification.

02:49:56.260 Who cares?

02:49:56.940 Like, why is it if they're fresh out of college that's better?

02:49:59.740 Let's...

02:50:00.080 I'm just gonna...

02:50:00.680 I wanted to write down Andrew's vision for the world and my vision of the world,

02:50:03.860 so why don't we just add that to the list that there's nothing wrong with 41-year-olds?

02:50:08.480 You have not made a justification for why there is.

02:50:11.000 Is there ever any...

02:50:11.580 Yeah, because I'm not going to justify it.

02:50:12.640 Because you can't.

02:50:13.460 You fucking can't.

02:50:14.300 No, you don't get to run.

02:50:15.380 Yep.

02:50:15.920 You don't get to run.

02:50:16.880 This is a massive feminist talking point.

02:50:19.120 The age discrepancy between older men, they say that they're predatory.

02:50:23.240 You made the argument they're predatory.

02:50:24.640 I'm not saying that men are inherently predatory.

02:50:26.340 Only if they want to date younger women.

02:50:28.680 Younger and 18-year-olds is so different.

02:50:31.200 Okay, 41 and 20.

02:50:31.720 Yeah, it's still kind of weird.

02:50:35.000 41 and 24?

02:50:37.360 Yeah, that's fine.

02:50:38.160 Yeah.

02:50:39.080 Based on what?

02:50:39.700 There's not a precise line, Andrew.

02:50:40.920 Yeah, because you're a fucking liar.

02:50:42.180 You don't know why.

02:50:43.160 We can say that it is okay for someone to date someone who is 40, if they're 41, and not

02:50:50.360 okay at 18.

02:50:51.420 And that doesn't mean that there's a precise age right there that they, oh, this age is

02:50:55.920 too much, this age is too little.

02:50:57.260 I think it's easy to be like, you shouldn't date someone.

02:50:59.440 So if you observed, well, shouldn't, but you wouldn't make laws against it.

02:51:03.440 Laws against it?

02:51:04.220 Yeah.

02:51:06.400 No, I wouldn't make laws against it.

02:51:07.900 But they shouldn't do it.

02:51:09.160 Yeah.

02:51:09.480 People can not, should not do things a lot, even if.

02:51:12.420 There, there is, so I would make this case, but on this, that's really weird because we

02:51:16.580 do tailor laws towards predatory sexual behavior in a big way.

02:51:20.720 And I'm sure you're for those laws.

02:51:22.140 Sure.

02:51:22.680 Why wouldn't you be, if you consider this to be a predatory sexual behavior, why would

02:51:26.980 you not want to target laws towards this though?

02:51:29.260 That's fucking weird.

02:51:30.220 Here we go.

02:51:30.860 And the reason is, is because I think that once again, you can prioritize different values

02:51:37.120 here.

02:51:37.380 I think autonomy of women is fine.

02:51:39.360 If an 18 year old genuinely wants to marry someone who's a lot older, I think it's a bad

02:51:43.560 decision.

02:51:44.220 I think she's likely going to, it's going to lead to a lot of negative emotional outcomes,

02:51:47.460 but I don't think the state should necessarily bar her from doing it because she's over the

02:51:52.100 age of 18.

02:51:53.080 Okay.

02:51:53.740 Okay.

02:51:54.140 No, that actually doesn't track.

02:51:55.640 Absolutely.

02:51:55.960 So when you're talking about you, you made the bold claim that it's weird.

02:52:01.860 And it's the reason it's weird and bad is because you think that at least most of these

02:52:06.280 relationships must be predatory.

02:52:07.780 It has a high potential for it.

02:52:09.580 Not all of them are.

02:52:10.520 I didn't say all.

02:52:11.680 What does most mean?

02:52:12.800 Yeah.

02:52:13.580 You think most of them are?

02:52:14.820 I think most of them can be.

02:52:16.120 What, what other criteria would you have for, um, most of this thing?

02:52:21.820 Hang on, which is sexually predatory.

02:52:23.700 Hang on.

02:52:24.420 Um, sexually predatory shouldn't be outlawed.

02:52:26.440 We have to draw the line somewhere, Andrew.

02:52:27.820 So if, if you would like to say that maybe actually I've, I've heard that before that

02:52:31.060 maybe you should raise the, raise the age of consent to like 21 or there should be like

02:52:35.420 Romeo and Juliet laws so that it does get higher so that a 41 year old couldn't date an 18

02:52:39.980 year old.

02:52:40.400 Would you be for that?

02:52:41.000 I think, I think in those cases there is, there's a good argument to be made there.

02:52:44.500 Okay.

02:52:44.760 Can we disenfranchise 18 year old women then?

02:52:46.880 What do you mean disenfranchise?

02:52:47.740 How, how are you?

02:52:48.460 Make sure that between 18 and 21.

02:52:49.940 Because I can't have sex with you, you can't vote.

02:52:52.240 What the fuck, dude?

02:52:53.140 Wait a second.

02:52:54.800 Isn't the justification for why they can't vote the same as why they can't have sex?

02:52:58.600 No, because sex and voting are very different.

02:53:00.860 People make uninformed decisions.

02:53:02.280 Why shouldn't, wait, why, why shouldn't adults be able to have sex with 16 year olds?

02:53:05.880 Isn't it for the same reason that 16 year olds shouldn't vote?

02:53:08.840 No.

02:53:09.920 Oh.

02:53:10.640 What, it's not?

02:53:11.360 Do you think if a 16 year old votes or doesn't vote, they're going to be deeply traumatized?

02:53:15.240 Uh, well, I mean, if enough 16 year olds do, yeah.

02:53:19.160 Yes, they could be.

02:53:20.660 Absolutely.

02:53:21.220 Do you think that parallels the harm of child abuse?

02:53:23.120 Well, first of all, I'm not sure, I'm not sure that like if a 19 year old has sex with

02:53:27.060 a 16 year old, the 16 year old is deeply traumatized, honestly.

02:53:30.300 Okay.

02:53:30.640 Do you think so?

02:53:31.980 Do you think that like, yeah, not really.

02:53:35.240 It's weird.

02:53:35.580 I would say that that's like 19, 16.

02:53:38.320 Yeah.

02:53:38.520 I'd say that's a little gross, but like, what about 1917?

02:53:42.240 Yeah.

02:53:42.720 Yeah.

02:53:43.060 You don't really care.

02:53:43.960 Right.

02:53:44.560 Yeah.

02:53:44.920 There's always going to be a line here.

02:53:46.300 And there's always different things.

02:53:47.400 Yeah.

02:53:47.620 So the thing is, is like, if that's the case, if you're like, they're 19 years old and 17

02:53:51.260 years old, right.

02:53:52.360 Mm-hmm.

02:53:53.220 And that's still predatory behavior from your view.

02:53:56.440 No.

02:53:57.180 I don't think necessarily it is.

02:53:58.580 But it should stay illegal.

02:54:00.060 No, I didn't say that.

02:54:01.220 It should be legal.

02:54:02.720 19 and 17.

02:54:03.440 There are some Romeo and Juliet laws that I would say I'm in favor of.

02:54:06.300 How is the one-year displacement then from 16 to 17?

02:54:09.160 That is stupid.

02:54:10.600 What do you mean?

02:54:10.980 Like, if you give the displacement, you're like, at 17 years old to 19 years old, that's

02:54:16.120 too much.

02:54:16.560 But at 16, it's not.

02:54:17.480 That is fucking weird.

02:54:18.380 Of course there's going to be an arbitrary distinction.

02:54:22.160 I'm not saying there can't be an arbitrary.

02:54:23.500 But I mean, that's super arbitrary.

02:54:25.660 I think two years in that age gap is as large as you should go.

02:54:30.280 Yeah.

02:54:30.440 So, I mean, but the question here still remains, right?

02:54:33.860 What about 35 and 18?

02:54:37.740 I think if you're older than like-

02:54:40.160 29?

02:54:41.060 23 or 24, you shouldn't be dating someone fresh out of high school.

02:54:44.400 Yeah.

02:54:44.520 What is the fresh out of high school thing?

02:54:46.100 Because you're in a different stage of life.

02:54:46.980 You could also be a CEO at 18, right?

02:54:48.700 Because you're in a different stage of life.

02:54:49.600 Yeah, Andrew.

02:54:50.140 Are most 18-year-old women CEOs?

02:54:52.280 Yeah.

02:54:52.460 Are most 18-year-old women dating 35-year-old men?

02:54:54.480 No.

02:54:54.800 And they shouldn't be.

02:54:55.440 Yeah, but the thing is, is like, when it comes to attraction, right, most people are

02:54:58.920 generally attracted and meet people within their same demographics and groups.

02:55:02.440 That is the case with all dating.

02:55:04.020 Sure.

02:55:04.660 So, if it's the case that this woman is seeking older men, right, if she's seeking them, what's

02:55:10.820 the problem?

02:55:12.160 I don't think she should be seeking people that old.

02:55:13.860 I think it's going to lead to her becoming more traumatized.

02:55:14.920 So, I consent.

02:55:15.620 I consent.

02:55:16.160 You don't consent.

02:55:17.220 No.

02:55:17.760 Yeah, you don't consent.

02:55:18.640 Hold on, but Andrew, you make-

02:55:19.360 You don't consent to their relationship.

02:55:20.500 You make the same claim for people under the age of 18.

02:55:23.880 How?

02:55:24.100 You don't consent to someone who is 41 dating someone who's 16.

02:55:28.020 But I gave justifications for that.

02:55:29.740 You have given none for this.

02:55:30.800 You just say it's hyper-predatory.

02:55:32.220 It's still predatory.

02:55:34.000 Sometimes maybe.

02:55:34.960 I think someone who wants to date someone that young, it's revealing.

02:55:38.920 Sometimes maybe.

02:55:40.020 I think more times than not.

02:55:42.220 I'm not sure.

02:55:43.220 Like, you haven't made that case, though.

02:55:45.080 That's the case I'm waiting for.

02:55:46.640 You're almost, like, asking me to argue against why it's wrong for adults to have sex with,

02:55:51.400 like, who are fundamentally children at that point.

02:55:53.380 Are you 18-year-olds or fundamentally children?

02:55:55.620 I think to a 41-year-old, there's almost no difference.

02:55:59.960 Uh-huh.

02:56:00.080 Virtual zero difference to a 17-year-old and 18-year-old.

02:56:01.420 Can you tell me what makes 18-year-olds children?

02:56:04.240 I'm not saying children in the legal sense of the term.

02:56:06.920 No, that's not.

02:56:07.620 Whatever sense.

02:56:08.480 Whatever sense.

02:56:09.400 I'm saying they are much younger.

02:56:11.400 I know they're younger.

02:56:12.180 And they have-

02:56:13.860 What makes them fucking children, bro?

02:56:15.780 They obviously had much less life experience than you have.

02:56:20.520 Okay.

02:56:20.980 So that's what makes them children?

02:56:22.680 That they have less life experience?

02:56:24.060 To a 41-year-old?

02:56:25.720 Yeah.

02:56:25.960 Absolutely.

02:56:26.620 How does that make them a child?

02:56:28.920 Functionally a child?

02:56:29.880 Absolutely.

02:56:29.980 They're not functionally a child.

02:56:31.580 Oh, my God.

02:56:32.080 Why do they just, like, not have fucking agency because they're young?

02:56:35.640 I'm not saying they don't have agency.

02:56:37.060 I'm saying there are better and worse decisions that people can make.

02:56:40.120 What's the bads in this decision?

02:56:42.160 That keeps being my question.

02:56:43.400 He won't answer.

02:56:44.100 What are the bads?

02:56:45.800 What?

02:56:47.260 You got nothing, dude.

02:56:48.060 You never have anything.

02:56:49.160 When I put you to the question, you fucking run every time.

02:56:51.900 What are the bads versus the goods?

02:56:53.380 Can we go over them?

02:56:54.540 No.

02:56:55.020 No.

02:56:55.860 I'm done talking about 41-year-olds.

02:56:57.400 I'm done talking about 41-year-olds.

02:56:58.780 You're such a coward, dude.

02:57:00.500 You're the worst coward I've ever seen.

02:57:02.060 No, because I'm refusing to engage anymore.

02:57:03.800 You're refusing to engage with a legitimate social question from your view about feminism.

02:57:08.900 That's what you're doing.

02:57:10.000 Okay.

02:57:10.380 This is a very common talking point from feminists that women are being hyper-predatorized by

02:57:16.300 older men, and then when I say, okay, well, let's get into whether or not that's happening

02:57:20.200 or not, you fucking run.

02:57:22.120 It's pure cowardice.

02:57:23.100 I'm going to go have a smoke while you left super chat.

02:57:24.640 If I asked you to justify something like PDF files, would you do it?

02:57:32.160 Bro, am I asking you to justify PDF files?

02:57:34.600 No, but I'm saying they're in a similar category.

02:57:36.540 Here's what I would do.

02:57:36.760 I'm saying they're in a similar category.

02:57:38.500 I would make great arguments for why it is that PDF files should be fucking roasted and

02:57:42.860 put up against a wall.

02:57:43.800 That's what I would do.

02:57:44.720 Okay.

02:57:45.020 You're making zero fucking arguments.

02:57:47.600 None.

02:57:48.340 Okay, Andrew.

02:57:49.020 You suck, dude.

02:57:49.820 All right.

02:57:56.340 We're going to read a couple of chats there.

02:57:58.240 Andrew's just going out for a brief smoke break.

02:58:01.600 All right.

02:58:02.360 Guys, if you want to get some messages in, we've lowered the TTS, $69 TTS.

02:58:07.820 If you want to get a message in, that's streamlabs.com slash whatever, a read TTS.

02:58:13.440 We'll do various breaks to get those through.

02:58:16.320 All right.

02:58:17.040 So since Andrew's gone, I'm going to try to do the ones that are just kind of asking

02:58:20.820 you questions, Oliver.

02:58:22.540 We have, let's see.

02:58:26.600 Here, we've got Shaw here.

02:58:28.160 This is for you, Oliver, if you want to.

02:58:31.640 Shaw XD donated $69.

02:58:34.360 Thank you, Shaw.

02:58:34.880 I appreciate it.

02:58:35.300 Oliver, stop being squeamish about views that you need to defend or confront.

02:58:39.360 You're doing a massive disservice to your own Guna worldview.

02:58:44.340 Confront the arguments.

02:58:46.080 Stop running away.

02:58:48.080 Okay.

02:58:48.700 If someone's arguing that 41-year-olds or 45-year-olds, there's nothing problematic about them going

02:58:54.840 for people who are barely legal, like, I don't know how to convince you that, like, you just

02:59:00.860 shouldn't, like, try to get with someone who is in no way on your level.

02:59:03.920 Why don't you try to date someone who is similar in your age range, even if you care about having

02:59:08.800 kids, then maybe you date someone who's a little younger, but that doesn't mean that you date

02:59:12.720 someone who is literally as young as you can possibly date without going to jail.

02:59:18.440 That is, that is fucking weird.

02:59:21.340 I guarantee most of these people would go lower, even if Andrew's trying to make some arbitrary

02:59:25.180 argument as to why 18 is the best line, even though child marriage is legal in so many

02:59:30.100 areas of the United States.

02:59:32.460 Is that Andrew's argument, though, that 18 is the best?

02:59:36.060 Yeah, he was making that argument, 17, no, because 18 is the peak of fertility.

02:59:39.420 Well, I don't know if he was saying best, he was just saying that is the line.

02:59:42.180 Peak of fertility, well, that is the line, and I think that that, I think that is a weird

02:59:46.360 arbitrary line.

02:59:47.860 Yeah, but I don't think Andrew would say that, like, that he could, somebody could date somebody

02:59:52.680 who's 25.

02:59:55.060 If you're 18, I still think that's a little weird.

02:59:57.040 18 and 25.

02:59:57.680 No, no, I'm saying, like, a 30-year-old could date a 25-year-old.

03:00:00.480 Yeah, that's fine.

03:00:00.860 Yeah, yeah.

03:00:02.020 I guess, what would you say is the, like, is 30-20, would you say that that's too much

03:00:07.440 of a age gap?

03:00:07.820 I mean, I can't be, look, I think if you were well out of college, you probably shouldn't

03:00:12.020 date someone who's in college.

03:00:13.080 Like, I just, I think if you were in different stages of your life, it's just, like, find

03:00:17.340 someone who compliments and matches you, not who you can kind of rule over.

03:00:21.700 What do you think about, like, in terms of experience, let's say the younger woman has

03:00:28.440 vastly more experience.

03:00:29.980 Like, let's say she's a 20-year-old stripper and then she's, and she's slept with, like,

03:00:34.940 100 men versus she's going to date a guy who's married his high school sweetheart and he just

03:00:41.420 got divorced and he's in his mid-30s and he's only been with her.

03:00:45.440 Don't you think you can make an argument the opposite direction where the 20-year-old stripper

03:00:49.840 is, like, there's way more opportunity for her to be predatory towards the 35-year-old,

03:00:55.700 like, kind of naive lack of experience.

03:00:58.600 Like, for instance, Emmanuel Macron, his wife.

03:01:01.860 Oh, dating, like, his, yeah, his, like, teacher, that's kind of weird.

03:01:04.220 He, like, dated his drama teacher, like, out of school.

03:01:06.400 It totally didn't work out.

03:01:07.700 That's true.

03:01:08.340 What is the moral backing from a endorsing age gap dating?

03:01:11.600 It totally didn't work out.

03:01:12.320 Don't you get it, vampire-looking bunnies boy?

03:01:15.020 The most powerful man.

03:01:15.940 Every 18-year-old's lived experience is not the same.

03:01:19.040 I think if you want to date your former students, that's kind of weird.

03:01:21.900 Yeah, so Emmanuel Macron shouldn't be married to his wife by your metric.

03:01:26.220 I think it is weird that he chose to do that.

03:01:28.540 No, let's not.

03:01:29.420 Here's the thing.

03:01:30.200 I can say something weird.

03:01:31.740 I'm actually unwilling.

03:01:33.100 If he says, I'm just going to check out of the conversation, I am unwilling to move the

03:01:36.960 conversation forward until we finish this.

03:01:38.860 Okay.

03:01:39.640 I'm completely unwilling to.

03:01:41.180 Can we do this?

03:01:41.980 What if we...

03:01:42.480 That's it.

03:01:43.240 If you check out...

03:01:44.140 If you're going to...

03:01:44.280 When you say, I check out of the debate on a pinnacle talking point from feminists, right,

03:01:48.480 I am unwilling to move the conversation forward to fucking anything until this is settled.

03:01:52.780 I will check out of the conversation on you trying to justify 41-year-olds dating 18-year-olds.

03:01:56.900 Well, then we're at an impasse.

03:01:58.440 If you refuse to engage in the conversation without giving me a single justification for

03:02:04.300 the fucking view with a common feminist talking point, I won't move the conversation

03:02:08.700 forward until this is settled.

03:02:10.560 I haven't run from any fucking thing that you've said.

03:02:13.020 It's intellectual cowardice, and it's all designed to demonize men and try to make them

03:02:18.220 into hyper-predators because they're attracted to younger women.

03:02:20.920 Men aren't hyper-predators, Andrew.

03:02:22.640 I'm not saying they are.

03:02:23.700 Then tell me the justifications for your fucking view, please.

03:02:26.720 Because when we are talking about older men dating women who are just out or are 18 years

03:02:34.280 old, I am arguing...

03:02:36.400 You said 20, too.

03:02:37.740 You said 20 was unacceptable.

03:02:39.340 What?

03:02:39.540 For 35 and 20.

03:02:40.720 They're not fresh out of high school then.

03:02:42.040 35 and 20.

03:02:42.880 I don't think you should date someone who's like...

03:02:45.040 If you're not in college, I don't think you should be dating someone who is like in college.

03:02:49.020 If you're working...

03:02:49.380 Yeah, so it's not high school.

03:02:50.500 So you're fucking lying.

03:02:51.460 No, I'm not...

03:02:51.920 You're such a disingenuous liar.

03:02:53.720 18 is high school.

03:02:54.680 Because it's not fresh out of fucking high school.

03:02:56.600 You're saying that you don't think if you're out of college, you should date people in

03:02:59.340 college either.

03:03:00.200 Probably not.

03:03:00.760 So you're just lying.

03:03:02.180 The view still is that men are predatory.

03:03:04.600 They're not inherently.

03:03:06.100 Men who are 41 and date 18-year-olds are predatory.

03:03:09.300 Men who are 41.

03:03:10.060 How does that mean all men are predatory?

03:03:12.280 You said 20.

03:03:13.500 What?

03:03:13.920 22, 23 is still in college, by the way.

03:03:16.340 And on top of that, what is the problem with a man who is 35 or 40 dating a woman in college?

03:03:22.520 What?

03:03:24.760 Yeah, you got fucking nothing.

03:03:26.120 I need a justification, please.

03:03:28.960 Because you are dating someone who you are in an incredibly different life stage.

03:03:34.340 Everybody who dates, everybody's in an incredibly different life stage than everybody else.

03:03:39.180 And age can be an equalizer.

03:03:42.100 What does that mean?

03:03:42.820 It means that a 35-year-old and a 35-year-old or a 35-year-old and a 30-year-old have probably

03:03:48.660 had more life experience to mature, to figure out what they like and don't like, to figure

03:03:53.920 out how to navigate relationships where potentially there could be bad things that happen.

03:03:59.020 An 18-year-old likely doesn't have a lot of that.

03:04:02.160 So they might not have the skills.

03:04:05.100 There's not a precise line, Andrew.

03:04:07.040 Yeah, okay.

03:04:07.300 So great.

03:04:07.720 So then the case is a 35-year-old dating a 22-year-old.

03:04:11.800 35-year-old, 22-year-old.

03:04:13.300 I'm not the arbiter of this.

03:04:14.180 Right?

03:04:14.560 I don't care.

03:04:15.660 It's a feminist talking point.

03:04:16.740 It's demonization.

03:04:17.480 I need the justifications for the view.

03:04:19.440 Soriety's paradox.

03:04:20.380 You're trying to pin me down.

03:04:20.720 There's no paradox.

03:04:21.500 Yes, you are.

03:04:21.880 You're trying to nail me down on one specific year.

03:04:26.320 This is too much, and that's not.

03:04:27.980 No.

03:04:28.420 No, no, no.

03:04:28.880 Explain the paradox.

03:04:29.660 You can use whole decades.

03:04:31.940 I don't give a fuck.

03:04:33.660 Okay?

03:04:33.860 I just want the justification for this because it makes no sense.

03:04:37.320 It's contrary to your other views.

03:04:39.420 At 22, 23, 18, 19, they're fully able to sign contracts, vote, do all these other things

03:04:46.820 which you think they ought to be able to do.

03:04:48.600 Sure.

03:04:48.900 But for some reason, this somehow is predatory.

03:04:51.480 And you say, quote, weird.

03:04:53.520 But weird isn't really it.

03:04:55.100 It's predatory from your view.

03:04:57.060 I want to know why it is then.

03:04:58.760 Why is it that you think, on the attraction metric, that when men are shown attractive

03:05:05.400 young women who are between the ages of 18 and 25, almost all respondents universally

03:05:10.760 say that they're very attracted to that.

03:05:13.020 Okay?

03:05:13.480 Very few respondents on the female side say that they're attracted to much older men.

03:05:17.500 Why do you think that is?

03:05:18.540 I mean, this largely makes sense.

03:05:20.120 Who people are attracted to biologically doesn't have bearing on what necessarily you should

03:05:24.680 It largely makes sense.

03:05:25.060 Why?

03:05:25.240 I'm not saying that fertility is not a thing, Andrew.

03:05:29.140 It largely makes sense.

03:05:30.200 Why?

03:05:31.520 Because people want to date people who they probably can have children with.

03:05:35.460 Are attracted to.

03:05:35.920 Are attracted to.

03:05:36.620 Why?

03:05:37.020 Why are they attracted to them, Andrew?

03:05:38.200 Because they can have the kids.

03:05:39.340 Correct.

03:05:39.920 And I said that.

03:05:40.820 So you know what you should do?

03:05:42.520 You know what you should do?

03:05:42.900 If you are 41 and you didn't have kids, don't outsource that to an 18-year-old.

03:05:49.760 Why?

03:05:49.980 You should have had kids earlier.

03:05:51.580 Why?

03:05:51.780 If you wanted to do that.

03:05:52.660 I don't understand.

03:05:53.100 You shouldn't prey on an 18-year-old.

03:05:54.300 So you're saying, wait, I just want to make sure I got this right.

03:05:56.740 You didn't have kids at the right age.

03:05:57.980 Hang on, hang on.

03:05:58.040 I just want to make sure I got this right.

03:05:59.320 This is fun.

03:06:01.040 So it is the case then, right, that if older men are attracted to those younger women,

03:06:06.420 and there is a subset of younger women who are attracted to older men, by the way,

03:06:09.560 okay, then evolution made a mistake.

03:06:12.040 I think things can be evolutionarily beneficial and not actually beneficial to how we run

03:06:19.780 our society.

03:06:20.360 Let's think about...

03:06:21.420 Why is that subset of women attracted, even though most of these men are physically less

03:06:27.380 attractive than men that are in an own age gap, why would that subset of women be attracted

03:06:32.100 to those men, do you think, evolutionarily?

03:06:33.980 I think that women can be attracted to older men because they think that they're more

03:06:37.120 secure.

03:06:38.260 They think they're more financially stable.

03:06:40.240 That's why I don't think it's as problematic for those women to want to date those men than

03:06:45.120 it is for those men to want to date those women.

03:06:47.140 What?

03:06:47.500 Why don't...

03:06:48.180 I don't...

03:06:48.580 Wait, what?

03:06:49.240 Wait, wait, wait, wait.

03:06:50.260 You got to think of what?

03:06:51.140 I don't...

03:06:51.460 I don't...

03:06:51.740 What?

03:06:52.400 I don't think it is as.

03:06:53.960 I think it's still weird, and I don't think they should do it.

03:06:55.620 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

03:06:56.220 No, no, no.

03:06:56.660 Back up, back up, back up, back up.

03:06:57.660 What are the reasons?

03:06:58.220 It's not as...

03:06:59.260 Hang on, hang on.

03:07:00.200 What are the reasons?

03:07:00.640 Hang on.

03:07:01.140 What are the reasons?

03:07:01.640 It's not as problematic for women to be attracted to older men as it is for older men to be attracted

03:07:10.620 to younger women.

03:07:11.540 Attraction is different than acting on it, for sure.

03:07:12.660 And acting on it.

03:07:13.520 Yes.

03:07:13.840 Why is it more problematic?

03:07:16.040 I'll say, okay, what are the reasons why women are attracted to older men?

03:07:19.300 For all sorts of reasons.

03:07:21.600 All sorts...

03:07:22.100 Well, we can go through the entire list, right?

03:07:24.380 Mm-hmm.

03:07:24.780 Because they want safety and security for their children.

03:07:27.260 Okay.

03:07:27.860 Big one.

03:07:28.520 Safety and security for their children, which, by the way, most men inside the age bracket

03:07:32.180 of 22, 23, 24 can't provide that.

03:07:34.640 They can't provide it.

03:07:35.480 Then you should wait to get married later.

03:07:37.560 Well, what if you want to have a lot of children?

03:07:39.620 Then have a lot of children within that age bracket.

03:07:42.700 Like, I don't know.

03:07:43.100 Then if you have a lot of kids within that age bracket with someone around your age,

03:07:47.760 they're not going to be as secure.

03:07:49.280 Yeah?

03:07:49.760 Then find someone who is secure, Andrew.

03:07:51.680 Well, what if you can't?

03:07:53.860 What if the case is...

03:07:55.520 I don't think you outsource.

03:07:55.960 Do you think that most men at 24, like, if a woman wants to have six kids and make sure

03:08:00.320 they're all secure, do you think that there's, like, a huge market for 20-year-old men who

03:08:03.080 want that?

03:08:03.900 20-year-old men who want that?

03:08:05.240 Yeah.

03:08:06.120 Probably not 20-year-olds, but people...

03:08:07.260 24.

03:08:07.920 24.

03:08:08.500 24?

03:08:09.100 Yeah.

03:08:09.440 Yeah, probably.

03:08:10.020 No, there's not.

03:08:10.840 How?

03:08:11.400 That's such...

03:08:12.020 Because we can look at the polling data for men and see what they want at these ages.

03:08:16.820 22, 23, 24.

03:08:18.120 They're still in, like, playing the field mode.

03:08:20.680 They're still in college themselves.

03:08:22.100 Sure.

03:08:22.460 Right?

03:08:22.780 They haven't even established a fucking career.

03:08:24.820 They're not thinking about, how do I support six children yet?

03:08:27.840 Okay.

03:08:28.420 Right?

03:08:28.860 Doesn't that follow?

03:08:29.540 I don't think that, therefore, that justifies older men dating really young girls.

03:08:34.320 Yeah, but what if it is the case that there's a subset of women, and there obviously is, that

03:08:38.600 are attracted to older men, and one of the major reasons they're attracted to those older

03:08:42.240 men is because they want security and safety for their children, and they know they have

03:08:45.840 high access to resources through that man and security and protection.

03:08:49.700 And men in their own age peer group cannot almost ever provide that.

03:08:56.340 Okay.

03:08:56.600 Why do men want to date younger women, then?

03:08:59.120 Because they want also to have a vessel for which to reproduce many children.

03:09:04.260 And the attractiveness level is high because of that.

03:09:07.880 Okay.

03:09:08.500 Yeah.

03:09:08.740 And you're reducing women to vessels, then?

03:09:10.940 No, I didn't.

03:09:11.900 What did I say?

03:09:12.680 I gave two criteria.

03:09:13.680 You said that men are attracted to younger women because they view them as vessels.

03:09:15.940 You don't date people you're not attracted to, right?

03:09:17.600 Of course.

03:09:18.600 So, if their attraction level is really high to a younger woman, and that woman can provide

03:09:22.400 a lot of kids, it seems like, it seems really beneficial to me that in a society,

03:09:28.020 if there are a subset of younger women who are attracted to older men, and there's older

03:09:33.340 women who are attracted to those younger women, and those younger women can give them

03:09:36.380 many children, and those men can take care of them, that seems super fucking beneficial

03:09:40.480 to me, to society.

03:09:41.880 If you only care about having children and being physically attracted to the person you're

03:09:46.320 married to.

03:09:46.660 Both are physically attracted to each other.

03:09:48.240 No, but fine.

03:09:48.680 But in you, the only things you care about in a marriage or something like that is whether

03:09:53.200 you're physically attracted to the person and whether they can bury you children.

03:09:55.840 I think without the first component of attraction, there's no relationship anyway.

03:09:59.980 For sure.

03:10:00.740 Okay.

03:10:00.980 So, that's going to be the most important criteria is attraction.

03:10:03.600 Absent attraction, there's no fucking relationship.

03:10:05.180 You agree with that?

03:10:07.440 Yeah, probably.

03:10:08.040 Okay, so both these people are attracted, so the building, the major building block,

03:10:11.740 which is their attraction, is there.

03:10:13.260 Mm-hmm.

03:10:13.560 Okay?

03:10:14.020 The second criteria is safety, security for the woman, right?

03:10:17.500 And perhaps she wants a sophisticated man, or she wants somebody who has more access to

03:10:22.400 being able to take her on vacations, or be able to show her the world, or this, or this,

03:10:27.340 or this, or this, or this, and he has access to those things.

03:10:29.860 Do men generally, in her age bracket, have those things?

03:10:33.420 Probably not.

03:10:34.160 Probably not.

03:10:34.820 So, how is this not a completely beneficial relationship to both?

03:10:38.680 Because I don't think this bears out like you are claiming that it does.

03:10:42.740 I would like to, I would like to look.

03:10:44.460 What do you mean?

03:10:45.180 I would like to look at how many 41-year-olds are marrying 18-year-olds, and then how it works

03:10:50.860 out.

03:10:50.980 Well, I would like to look at how many fucking 22-year-olds marry 22-year-olds, and how often

03:10:54.760 that works out.

03:10:55.640 Okay.

03:10:55.900 Guess what?

03:10:56.260 It has like a 30 or 40% failure rate.

03:10:58.800 Okay.

03:10:59.060 So, it's like marrying in your own age bracket.

03:11:02.060 The most comprehensive study that I looked at, which is in the UK, which really judged

03:11:06.020 this by marriage, saw no additional failure in marriage rates.

03:11:09.180 No additional failure.

03:11:10.640 Okay.

03:11:11.880 Cool.

03:11:12.240 I can send you that study.

03:11:13.580 Okay.

03:11:13.880 Sounds good.

03:11:15.460 So, if that was the case, what would be your objection then?

03:11:19.840 What would be my objection?

03:11:20.800 Yeah.

03:11:20.920 I'm still saying, I'm still saying that it is predatory.

03:11:23.840 Wow.

03:11:24.700 Because they are preying on people who are much younger than them.

03:11:27.660 That's not predatory.

03:11:28.660 What is a predator to you?

03:11:30.500 Someone who is looking for someone who is much more vulnerable than they are.

03:11:36.760 Yeah.

03:11:36.900 That's not what they're looking for.

03:11:38.560 Are you saying that 18-year-old women are largely not more vulnerable than 41-year-olds?

03:11:40.960 No, no, no.

03:11:41.700 Hang on.

03:11:42.400 Hang on.

03:11:42.880 What you just said was, they're looking for that.

03:11:46.620 But, that is not a provable case that these men are looking for their 22-year-old bride

03:11:53.440 because she's more vulnerable.

03:11:55.620 That is you making an assertion.

03:11:57.660 What is the case, right, is that they both have a beneficial relationship when it comes

03:12:03.680 to the resource allocation for one, the attractiveness level of both, and the childbearing,

03:12:09.720 which is capable.

03:12:10.740 Why is it that you make the assertion that they're specifically searching for vulnerable

03:12:14.720 people?

03:12:15.140 Correct.

03:12:15.360 Because, do you think that that man probably wants that woman to be submissive, follow his

03:12:19.740 lead, do whatever he says, pick up and move across the country if they say you want to

03:12:24.400 go to Nevada?

03:12:24.740 A lot of the men I talk to who are in those age gap relationships say the opposite.

03:12:27.440 They say, I love the energy that she has, right?

03:12:30.320 That's kind of wonderful that she has this kind of positive energy and a bit of exuberance.

03:12:35.520 And you know what the big key is?

03:12:36.920 Not as much fucking baggage.

03:12:39.140 They don't have as much baggage.

03:12:40.200 So because they haven't fucked everybody on planet Earth, right, they haven't had these

03:12:44.680 massive, you know, promiscuous relationships and shit like this, they come into these relationships

03:12:49.580 with less baggage.

03:12:50.820 How does that make them more vulnerable?

03:12:53.120 Make them more vulnerable?

03:12:53.960 Yeah.

03:12:54.320 I already said.

03:12:55.140 It would actually make you more vulnerable if you had baggage.

03:12:57.260 How does it make you more vulnerable?

03:12:58.120 Oh, because then suddenly you have fucking kids which can be leveraged against you, perhaps.

03:13:02.140 You have exes that have to be dealt with, perhaps.

03:13:04.520 You have all sorts of negative associations with men that now this new man has to deal with.

03:13:09.160 There's all sorts of vulnerability issues which arise from that.

03:13:12.180 All right.

03:13:12.620 Let's move on.

03:13:14.140 Let's move on.

03:13:14.440 No, let's not move on.

03:13:15.360 I want a refutation to this.

03:13:16.800 No, I'm not engaging with this anymore.

03:13:18.200 I'm not fucking engaging.

03:13:18.600 I'm sorry.

03:13:19.500 Then just don't engage in the debate.

03:13:21.560 I won't engage in the debate until we've settled this.

03:13:23.140 We should talk about other things, right?

03:13:24.380 What if we do this?

03:13:25.460 We have a bunch of chats to come through, get through, and then, Andrew, if you want

03:13:30.000 to bring it up again, see if you'll buy it.

03:13:32.280 Let me get through.

03:13:32.820 I just don't know why you are so fucking terrified of this convo, dude.

03:13:36.800 I think it's pretty terrifying trying to justify 41-year-olds.

03:13:40.380 I think it's terrifying that if you have such a worldview like this where you consider

03:13:44.000 these adults to be fucking vulnerable but can't make a single good argument for why,

03:13:48.580 that terrifies fucking me.

03:13:50.040 Okay.

03:13:51.600 All right.

03:13:51.840 Let's do this.

03:13:52.480 If you guys want to continue the conversation a bit, we can.

03:13:54.400 I've had OnlyFans hookers who can make better justifications than you have for this, dude.

03:13:58.480 Oh, really?

03:13:58.880 Yes.

03:13:59.540 Sounds good.

03:14:00.860 I'm sure you would date them, too.

03:14:02.780 I would date OnlyFans hookers?

03:14:04.260 Mm-hmm.

03:14:04.900 No.

03:14:05.240 You're the one who says you want lots of sexual experience for your woman so that she

03:14:10.060 feels good about you.

03:14:11.340 You would be the one who would date OnlyFans hookers, dude.

03:14:14.380 Not me.

03:14:15.180 What do you mean?

03:14:16.060 Okay.

03:14:16.240 By the way, I'm happily married.

03:14:17.440 Okay.

03:14:17.960 Was my wife an OnlyFans hooker, bro?

03:14:19.800 No.

03:14:20.300 No.

03:14:20.520 No.

03:14:20.560 I'm just fucking dumb.

03:14:25.860 All right.

03:14:26.960 One request, though, guys, just because we have a lot of chats that have come through.

03:14:30.280 All right.

03:14:30.740 Let me get through.

03:14:32.140 There's like 15.

03:14:32.940 Yeah, I'll have a smoke while you get the chats through.

03:14:34.780 Do you want to stay for a few of them?

03:14:36.340 Yeah.

03:14:36.480 Stay for like five and then take a break.

03:14:37.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:14:38.380 Okay, no problem.

03:14:39.260 You just had the smoke, Andrew.

03:14:40.380 I want another one.

03:14:40.920 This guy's chain smoking, man.

03:14:42.380 Have you ever seen me debate?

03:14:44.640 What does it look like?

03:14:47.340 Just saying.

03:14:47.900 No, I'm just giving you a hard time.

03:14:50.240 All right.

03:14:50.560 We got Deez Nates here.

03:14:53.420 Deez Nates donated $100.

03:14:55.600 Thank you, Deez Nates.

03:14:56.260 Imagine being with a woman who has experienced over 20 guys.

03:15:00.580 Now you are her Build-A-Bear.

03:15:02.440 The Chad was great with sex.

03:15:04.540 Brad was so rich.

03:15:06.000 Steve, read my mind.

03:15:07.760 I'm not happy with our marriage.

03:15:10.300 Thank you, Nates.

03:15:11.560 Appreciate it.

03:15:12.880 Great name.

03:15:13.760 Okay.

03:15:14.340 We have Red Fox coming in here.

03:15:16.020 Thank you, Deez.

03:15:18.180 Sorry for the delay on that.

03:15:19.740 I saw your super chat there.

03:15:21.940 Thank you, Red Fox.

03:15:23.160 Red Fox donated $100.

03:15:26.100 Andrew is prime form.

03:15:27.540 Sleep.

03:15:28.060 Is Oliver a cuck?

03:15:29.540 You are so lucky.

03:15:30.260 Andrew is allowing you to make prescriptive statements with minimum challenge.

03:15:34.760 You have no epistemic grounding to be making ought claims.

03:15:38.020 And I'm not even attacking his epistemic grounding.

03:15:40.220 Here, I'm literally, you know, it's really funny.

03:15:43.060 I know why people want to avoid the ought claims so badly.

03:15:47.820 I get that, right?

03:15:49.100 But I have been super charitable and have not been reducing things to these, like, kind

03:15:53.700 of moral-rooted epistemic oughts.

03:15:56.560 Good.

03:15:56.720 I'm glad we didn't go there.

03:15:57.440 Instead, I've been just looking for basic justifications for your worldview.

03:16:01.040 Just basic ones.

03:16:02.280 And every time we dive into them, you lose every single point.

03:16:06.860 And that's so bizarre to me why it is that you, well.

03:16:10.340 You can either have a consistent worldview that says that women shouldn't vote and that

03:16:14.440 there's no problem with 40-year-olds dating 18-year-olds, I guess.

03:16:17.980 Or you can maybe have a slightly inconsistent worldview, but don't think that those two things

03:16:22.420 are things that we should allow them to decide.

03:16:24.100 Well, it's not just an inconsistent worldview, but you haven't even gotten into my worldview

03:16:27.000 about women voting.

03:16:28.080 You're just lying again.

03:16:29.120 When do we debate about women voting?

03:16:31.120 When have I given you a position?

03:16:32.360 Andrew, are you denying that you don't think women should vote?

03:16:35.160 I don't think most people should vote, including most women.

03:16:39.300 But I would not monolithically ever state.

03:16:42.060 Okay.

03:16:42.460 Yeah.

03:16:42.740 I think that most men and most women should not vote.

03:16:46.120 And guess who else agreed with me?

03:16:47.820 Our founding fathers.

03:16:49.460 Oh, really?

03:16:50.080 Didn't they?

03:16:50.440 They also thought black people shouldn't vote, too.

03:16:52.640 They thought they were three-fifths of a person, too.

03:16:54.800 Why are you appealing to them?

03:16:55.540 Do you think that if they didn't like X group, that they were wrong about everything?

03:16:59.180 Do you like your First Amendment?

03:17:00.480 Do you like your First Amendment?

03:17:02.000 Hold on.

03:17:02.040 Because racists gave you your First Amendment, bro.

03:17:04.340 No, I didn't say that.

03:17:05.040 It's the same conflation.

03:17:05.940 I didn't say the founding fathers were all wrong whatsoever at all.

03:17:09.680 However, they did give us a document that was meant to be amended, meaning we don't just

03:17:12.960 look to their original purposes and what they necessarily wanted to determine how we should

03:17:18.080 go.

03:17:18.480 Yeah, but there's some case use for us making the good and credible claims that a lot of

03:17:25.720 our founders were against racism, considering the fact that slavery, or I'm sorry, against

03:17:30.740 slavery, because it was internationally abolished under their watch.

03:17:34.140 It was only inside the United States that these were grandfathered slaves.

03:17:37.760 Do you know what year international slavery was abolished in the United States?

03:17:41.620 International slavery?

03:17:42.500 Yeah.

03:17:43.040 Meaning they could no longer import Africans from Africa.

03:17:45.400 It was sometime definitely after 1619, but sometime between 1619 and 1819.

03:17:50.660 Long before the Civil War, right?

03:17:52.360 Okay.

03:17:52.560 No, I don't doubt it.

03:17:53.420 So the thing is, it's like we have good, credible evidence for what they wanted on that front.

03:17:57.320 And the fact they even included a three-fifths clause, the fact they even included that showed

03:18:02.140 that they were trying to, at least in comparison to the rest of the world, give some humanity.

03:18:06.080 Some humanity.

03:18:06.920 Yeah.

03:18:07.080 Treating people as three-fifths of a person.

03:18:08.660 In comparison to the rest of the world who utilize nothing but slavery, right?

03:18:13.160 That would be a progressive doctrine, right?

03:18:15.320 Mm-hmm.

03:18:15.740 Wouldn't it?

03:18:16.180 Yeah.

03:18:16.480 You know, you killed 38 people, but you didn't kill the 39th.

03:18:18.760 So I'm really happy.

03:18:19.660 Okay.

03:18:20.060 Here's the thing.

03:18:21.280 If homosexuals in early United States were castrated rather than killed, isn't that a

03:18:26.800 progressive doctrine for the time?

03:18:28.880 No, it's not progressive.

03:18:30.020 For the time?

03:18:30.660 No, but just slightly better.

03:18:32.260 So wait, and that would be progress?

03:18:35.040 It's not progress.

03:18:36.200 Yes.

03:18:36.560 Things that are slightly better, they're still in the same category of thing.

03:18:39.780 They're still bad.

03:18:40.900 Yes.

03:18:41.240 But it's still a progressive doctrine for its time slot, right?

03:18:44.600 Same thing.

03:18:45.620 Same thing when it comes to slavery.

03:18:47.360 No.

03:18:47.840 They were still very progressive for the time.

03:18:51.500 Yes.

03:18:52.260 Look at all the rest of the world.

03:18:54.180 Okay.

03:18:54.620 Things that being better doesn't mean that it was progressive.

03:18:57.780 What does progressive mean?

03:18:58.900 What does progressive mean?

03:19:00.580 It means largely you want to change things to better the future.

03:19:06.000 All right.

03:19:06.700 We can do the next chat.

03:19:08.500 We're clipping it.

03:19:09.320 Clip it.

03:19:09.940 Clip it.

03:19:10.540 Watch the performative.

03:19:11.700 No.

03:19:11.940 Watch him literally say, it's not progressive.

03:19:15.040 And then when I ask him why, give me the exact definition for why that was progressive.

03:19:19.040 A lot of people for the three-fifths compromise did it because they didn't view black people as human beings.

03:19:24.080 That's why there was a compromise, which made it progressive.

03:19:26.280 Poof.

03:19:27.040 Okay.

03:19:30.900 All right.

03:19:31.480 I'll let some of the guys, we got a bunch of chats.

03:19:33.620 So let's let some of the chats come through if you guys can give short commentary.

03:19:37.040 Ogle underscore blue.net donated $69.

03:19:39.260 Yo, what's up, Ogle?

03:19:40.380 Thank you, man.

03:19:40.880 One, what if it's a very rich 18-years-slash-o lady and a very poor 41-years-slash-i man?

03:19:47.540 How does this affect the power argument?

03:19:50.260 Two, what age is okay for an 18-years-slash-o to reproduce with if not 41?

03:19:56.340 38?

03:19:57.720 32?

03:19:58.840 25.5?

03:20:00.500 Can't give you a number.

03:20:01.760 It's complicated.

03:20:03.620 It's a threshold.

03:20:04.380 Oliver, do you want to give a quick answer to what if it's a very rich 18-year-old lady and a very poor 41-year-old man?

03:20:11.640 There's obviously various considerations to be had in terms of power dynamics.

03:20:16.440 I'm not saying money is the only thing involved there.

03:20:19.720 So I still think it would be not a good idea.

03:20:23.560 Okay.

03:20:24.380 All right.

03:20:24.840 We have Nevermind here at Ogle.

03:20:26.540 Thank you for your message.

03:20:27.500 Thank you, Nevermind.

03:20:27.940 Nevermind donated $70.

03:20:30.500 Thank you.

03:20:30.820 Oliver, Ryan Slagen, your societal views are entirely based on your experience with hardship.

03:20:37.820 Go, experience war, or real struggle and see if you have the same perspective on what is equal.

03:20:45.180 Okay.

03:20:45.780 Quick response to that.

03:20:46.840 I mean, this is a very strange argument because you're basically claiming that, you know, oh, when things get worse, you know, there is an equality.

03:20:54.440 Or this idea that if – this idea of this fallacy of relative privation that, like, things can't –

03:20:59.920 That is not relative privation.

03:21:01.420 We can't want to improve society now because in a different state, things would regress to a different time.

03:21:06.800 It's not relative – and here's why it's not.

03:21:09.560 I'll explain it.

03:21:10.520 Because you said that these are – all of your views on this for today's debate are conditional.

03:21:15.840 Sure.

03:21:16.060 And because every one of them is conditional, you're basing them around the intuition of other people.

03:21:20.600 That's going to require experience, right?

03:21:21.980 Hang on.

03:21:22.260 Is that going to require experience?

03:21:23.380 Sure.

03:21:25.000 I don't know how that has anything to do with that.

03:21:26.640 If you deny –

03:21:27.320 Because it wouldn't be the fallacy of privation if you gave the criteria for conditionals.

03:21:32.120 That's why.

03:21:33.500 Learn philosophy, dude.

03:21:34.940 You're fucking terrible at it.

03:21:35.940 No, if you want to deny the things that I've said here –

03:21:38.460 Hey, woman over there, grab me a beer, would you?

03:21:40.640 Oh, did that make you mad?

03:21:42.000 No.

03:21:42.240 Can we get Oliver some water too?

03:21:46.060 All right.

03:21:46.940 Here, I'm going to let –

03:21:47.480 I'm going to get my old one.

03:21:48.740 Oh, you're going to get it yourself?

03:21:49.820 You wouldn't want to put her out, Oliver.

03:21:51.840 You don't want to put her out, would you?

03:21:55.220 It's a – Oliver, it's fine.

03:21:56.780 I'm not going to contribute to the fact that you –

03:21:58.100 You're not going to contribute to my massive massage.

03:22:03.380 Look at how upset she is, dude.

03:22:05.220 You see how pissed she is that I said, hey, woman, grab me a beer?

03:22:08.920 You're pretty upset, aren't you?

03:22:10.860 Look at her.

03:22:11.560 Look at how mad she is, bro.

03:22:13.300 She is fucking seething right now.

03:22:15.280 Yeah.

03:22:15.720 Oliver put his foot down.

03:22:16.840 That's what makes that beer taste so good.

03:22:19.420 I'm sure, yeah.

03:22:20.880 But, Oliver, was that in response to Andrew's beer comment that you were going to get your own water or just –

03:22:27.960 Yeah.

03:22:28.160 You just won't –

03:22:28.840 Yeah.

03:22:29.140 Oh, okay.

03:22:29.460 It was like you were –

03:22:30.100 Yeah.

03:22:30.120 So you're making a statement.

03:22:31.900 I'm not going to contribute to the fact that Andrew does that, portrays women as that is their proper role or something like that.

03:22:38.760 Because Andrew does think that.

03:22:39.960 You see how upset she is.

03:22:42.020 Look at her.

03:22:42.540 I know.

03:22:43.000 That's fine.

03:22:43.460 She looks pretty bad while she's smiling and laughing her ass off.

03:22:48.340 Yeah.

03:22:48.620 Okay.

03:22:49.380 It's almost like she's not confused with interpersonal dynamics the same way you are.

03:22:53.200 All right.

03:22:53.480 Sounds good, Andrew.

03:22:54.160 Andrew's bantering a little bit.

03:22:56.880 Interpersonal dynamics.

03:22:57.680 Anyways, let me let the rest –

03:22:58.780 It's not banter when you genuinely think that's what women should do.

03:23:01.720 Do you think that I have a history of mistreating women?

03:23:04.420 I have no idea.

03:23:05.240 I don't know.

03:23:05.340 Then why would you make this kind of claim?

03:23:07.360 Do you think that she was just mistreated?

03:23:08.900 Your other views –

03:23:09.660 Do you think she was just mistreated?

03:23:11.680 Mistreated?

03:23:12.060 Yeah.

03:23:12.840 I think there was –

03:23:14.040 Well, I said woman and very precisely told her to get me a beer.

03:23:18.420 Was she mistreated?

03:23:19.680 I think so.

03:23:20.200 I think you said –

03:23:20.520 Do you think I was mistreating her?

03:23:21.300 I think you made –

03:23:22.120 Should we ask her?

03:23:23.080 Ask her.

03:23:23.720 Should we ask her?

03:23:24.380 Ask her.

03:23:25.020 I'm sure –

03:23:25.480 Yes, I'm sure she says she doesn't feel mistreated and that's fine.

03:23:27.740 I'm not telling her how to feel.

03:23:29.000 Because you have goddess worship, bro.

03:23:30.740 I told you you worship fucking women.

03:23:32.180 I'm not telling her how to feel, Andrew.

03:23:33.780 You worship women.

03:23:34.700 I don't worship women.

03:23:35.780 Even when they're not offended, you get offended for them.

03:23:37.980 No, I'm not –

03:23:38.520 You're offended on her behalf.

03:23:40.280 I'm not offended for her.

03:23:40.620 You had to go make an example and get up and get your own water.

03:23:43.420 Because I'm not going to contribute to that for myself.

03:23:45.600 Contribute to what?

03:23:46.680 Handing her my water right after you said –

03:23:49.120 Uh-huh.

03:23:49.740 You said, get me a beer, woman.

03:23:50.980 Yeah, what's her job?

03:23:52.100 I'm not –

03:23:52.700 What's her job?

03:23:53.500 You can be respectful.

03:23:54.220 I thought that she was a strong, powerful woman.

03:23:56.280 Hey, Mary, would you mind getting me some water, please?

03:23:58.600 Thank you so much.

03:23:59.380 That would be different.

03:24:00.120 No, I'm good now.

03:24:01.080 But that's how I would say that.

03:24:02.640 Oh, wow.

03:24:03.000 I wouldn't involve saying, woman, get me a beer.

03:24:06.340 Yeah, I know.

03:24:06.900 I know.

03:24:07.300 But do you see the difference in why she's laughing at the one

03:24:10.560 because she understands interpersonal dynamics

03:24:12.520 and why she thinks you're a fucking idiot?

03:24:14.860 That's fine.

03:24:15.300 The reason is, right, is because you don't understand

03:24:18.440 human interpersonal dynamics.

03:24:19.800 I understand that there's interpersonal dynamics, Andrew.

03:24:21.420 No, you don't.

03:24:22.220 Wait.

03:24:22.700 Are we on camera or are we off camera?

03:24:24.340 On camera.

03:24:24.760 Okay.

03:24:25.300 So if this was off camera, then maybe you'd have a better point.

03:24:28.120 But right now, what you are doing is you are portraying that.

03:24:29.700 Do you think that I would say that off camera?

03:24:31.160 Yeah, probably.

03:24:31.540 Then you have no point.

03:24:33.320 You wouldn't say that off camera but on camera?

03:24:34.840 I would say it on camera and off camera.

03:24:36.940 Okay.

03:24:37.200 Then you have no point.

03:24:38.360 But it becomes worse when it's on camera.

03:24:40.660 That's what I'm saying.

03:24:41.560 Because you are perpetuating that type of rhetoric as if it is normal.

03:24:44.280 Perpetuating what?

03:24:45.000 I think it is normal and fine.

03:24:46.480 That's why it's not a joke to you.

03:24:48.560 It's not.

03:24:49.460 It's fine.

03:24:50.280 Thank you.

03:24:50.860 What's wrong with it?

03:24:51.980 You think women's proper role is to serve men drinks.

03:24:55.100 I think her job is to serve men.

03:24:56.740 And why didn't you say Mary get me a beer?

03:24:59.780 You said woman get me a beer.

03:25:01.360 I forgot her name.

03:25:02.340 I'm old.

03:25:02.980 Yeah.

03:25:03.380 Uh-huh.

03:25:03.740 Look at her laughing.

03:25:04.940 Look.

03:25:05.600 Look.

03:25:06.180 She's dying.

03:25:07.120 She's literally dying laughing right now, bro.

03:25:09.780 That's interpersonal dynamics.

03:25:12.200 And you need to fucking learn them.

03:25:14.080 Okay.

03:25:14.980 Are you?

03:25:15.640 Is it early?

03:25:16.020 Look at her.

03:25:16.420 She looked like she was about to gag.

03:25:17.660 She was laughing so hard, bro.

03:25:18.600 Is it early onset dementia?

03:25:20.180 Yeah.

03:25:20.460 Can't blame me.

03:25:21.060 I'm too old.

03:25:22.080 It's the Alzheimer's.

03:25:23.060 I'm so old, bro.

03:25:24.400 Guys, $69 TTS.

03:25:26.920 Streamlabs.com slash whatever.

03:25:28.340 If you want to get it in, get one in.

03:25:31.720 Streamlabs.com slash whatever.

03:25:32.660 You know what they call that?

03:25:33.260 The kids call it Riz.

03:25:35.640 Riz.

03:25:36.220 Riz.

03:25:36.820 The Riz.

03:25:37.500 The charisma.

03:25:37.900 Andrew's the Rizzler.

03:25:38.760 The charisma.

03:25:40.240 Andrew's the Rizzler.

03:25:41.040 Okay.

03:25:41.640 Guys, let me let some chats come through.

03:25:43.840 All right.

03:25:44.100 Thank you, Ogle.

03:25:45.000 Thank you.

03:25:45.380 For lunders, call glue.net donated $69.

03:25:47.700 Oh, ignore his part two.

03:25:49.160 Yeah.

03:25:49.240 Okay.

03:25:49.540 Ignore my part two question.

03:25:51.480 Andrew got to it before the TTS went through.

03:25:54.220 Hey, what's up, by the way, Ogle?

03:25:55.460 It's always nice to see you over here.

03:25:56.320 Always good to see Ogle.

03:25:57.260 Ogle's a legend.

03:25:58.620 He gives me some shit, but I let it go.

03:26:00.500 I let it go.

03:26:01.300 He's a good guy.

03:26:02.160 He's a good guy.

03:26:03.020 And he's popped a cup of champagne bottles, too.

03:26:05.860 What are we running live today, by the way?

03:26:07.520 What's that?

03:26:07.960 What are we running live today?

03:26:09.560 Running live?

03:26:10.140 Yeah.

03:26:10.600 On numbers.

03:26:11.920 Oh, viewership.

03:26:12.560 We have almost 8,000 concurrent viewers, and I think we have about on YouTube, and we have

03:26:19.260 just under 8,000, and we have about 1,000, I believe, on Twitch.

03:26:23.060 Plus several thousand from the crucible, I'm sure.

03:26:24.860 And then there's a good amount.

03:26:25.540 So we got over 10,000 total across different platforms.

03:26:29.080 We have Cha here.

03:26:30.000 It's good to see all you guys.

03:26:31.940 Cha XD donated $69.

03:26:33.980 Thank you, Cha.

03:26:34.900 I appreciate it.

03:26:35.260 I presume Oliver is also against fresh out of high school women being given loans to

03:26:39.980 go to college.

03:26:40.840 Hold on.

03:26:41.240 Yeah, predatory loans.

03:26:42.620 Because that seems more potentially damaging than marrying a 35-year-old man.

03:26:46.580 Absolutely.

03:26:47.000 Student loans are super predatory.

03:26:48.840 I am 100% on board with this.

03:26:50.260 They basically...

03:26:50.940 No, no, no.

03:26:51.460 You're not...

03:26:51.840 Predatory lending.

03:26:52.680 Absolutely.

03:26:53.000 You're lying again through your teeth.

03:26:54.220 So let me show you what he's doing.

03:26:55.800 He says, no, I'm 100% against predatory student loans.

03:26:58.760 No, he's against predatory loans for everybody.

03:27:01.140 Whatever's predatory for the loan is what he's against.

03:27:04.000 That's fair enough.

03:27:05.320 But he's not specifically against loaning 18-year-olds' money, are you?

03:27:09.300 I'm against it being predatory.

03:27:10.520 Yeah.

03:27:10.820 Again, are you against loaning 18-year-olds' money?

03:27:13.520 I know.

03:27:14.080 Of course.

03:27:14.760 How does that not follow from what I said?

03:27:17.120 Because the idea here is that at the same time you're trying to say they don't have enough

03:27:21.260 requisite agency to make the determination as to what is predatory, you still make the claim

03:27:26.780 that they can assert what is or is not predatory by saying still give them loans.

03:27:30.620 How do they assess whether or not the loans are predatory or not?

03:27:34.560 They don't have agency, bro.

03:27:35.960 I'm not saying they don't have agency.

03:27:37.580 So how are the loans predatory?

03:27:39.560 Because you can draw particular lines as to what is and isn't predatory.

03:27:43.380 Well, what is predatory about a student loan?

03:27:45.340 It's a ton of fucking money.

03:27:47.300 I actually maybe think that you shouldn't be able to loan an 18-year-old like $50,000

03:27:52.520 right out of high school.

03:27:54.100 Because they don't have the requisite agency to make that decision?

03:27:57.300 Probably.

03:27:58.160 Okay.

03:27:58.400 But to vote, they can.

03:28:00.060 Including voting on policy, which would allow 18-year-olds to borrow $50,000?

03:28:05.240 Sure, Andrew.

03:28:05.820 Fucking genius.

03:28:06.600 Genius level argument, bro.

03:28:08.220 People can vote against my interest, and I still think they should be able to vote, Andrew.

03:28:12.520 This is the thing.

03:28:13.300 You're like, oh my god, people could vote and it could go against what you want, Oliver.

03:28:17.480 Oh my god, did you know democracy can dissolve democracy?

03:28:21.000 I do.

03:28:22.060 I'm not saying it can't.

03:28:23.500 I'm saying those people should still be able to vote on this.

03:28:25.900 This argument doesn't track, though.

03:28:27.180 Then why don't we have 17-year-olds vote?

03:28:30.120 I think they probably should.

03:28:31.600 16-year-olds?

03:28:32.240 I think that anyone...

03:28:33.140 I mean, it's an interesting argument, but I'm sympathetic to the idea that anyone who

03:28:37.040 has the ability to be in the voting booth should probably be able to vote.

03:28:39.940 That would be 10-year-olds.

03:28:41.080 Mm-hmm.

03:28:41.340 Probably.

03:28:42.400 What?

03:28:42.680 So, Andrew.

03:28:43.540 No, Andrew.

03:28:43.900 Here we go.

03:28:44.440 No, granted.

03:28:44.920 I'm going to go have a smoke while I ponder about 10-year-olds voting.

03:28:48.540 Hold on.

03:28:48.780 I'm going to actually explain this because I think it's an interesting argument and I've

03:28:51.360 seen some people make compelling points for it.

03:28:54.340 Andrew, the same arguments as to why children should not be able to vote are the same arguments

03:29:00.320 that people pose against women voting.

03:29:02.660 Oh, they're just going to vote like their parents do.

03:29:04.260 They're just going to vote like their husbands do.

03:29:05.840 They don't have the requisite knowledge in order to make this information.

03:29:08.880 Most people don't have the requisite knowledge and information to make stuff.

03:29:12.460 So, if kids...

03:29:13.640 You're actually making a compelling argument against most people voting.

03:29:16.980 If we allow...

03:29:17.420 You're making a better argument against most people voting than you are for children to

03:29:20.700 be able to vote.

03:29:21.200 Okay.

03:29:21.500 If we allow everyone to vote, then we should allow children to vote.

03:29:25.200 If you're saying we shouldn't allow...

03:29:26.460 We don't allow everyone to vote.

03:29:27.560 I don't...

03:29:27.880 Do we allow prisoners to vote?

03:29:29.320 No, but I think we should.

03:29:29.860 Should they be able to?

03:29:30.640 Yeah, I think we should.

03:29:30.900 Yeah, of course.

03:29:31.360 And 10-year-olds.

03:29:32.060 Mm-hmm.

03:29:32.320 Yeah, so here's the idea here, right?

03:29:33.860 This is what's so funny about this argument.

03:29:35.540 Yeah.

03:29:35.680 The reason why you thought this argument was good is because you talked to nothing but fucking leftists.

03:29:39.720 And so you share a paradigm.

03:29:41.140 Because you share the paradigm, you forgot about the criticism to the paradigm.

03:29:44.260 No, it wasn't.

03:29:44.800 The paradigm is...

03:29:46.440 Well, it's really hard for us within our worldview to justify why it is a 10-year-old shouldn't

03:29:51.300 be able to vote because we start with the presupposition everybody should be able to vote.

03:29:54.840 You start with that supposition already.

03:29:56.680 That's not the presupposition.

03:29:57.080 You already start with the idea that everyone...

03:30:00.360 That's the only thing that holds this worldview up.

03:30:02.240 What else holds it up?

03:30:03.880 That people who are affected by the policy that they're passing should be able to vote.

03:30:07.260 That would be everybody.

03:30:08.860 I think largely, yes.

03:30:10.100 Including nine-year-olds.

03:30:11.540 Sure.

03:30:12.800 So then the idea here is that because everybody should be able to vote, that includes children.

03:30:19.500 But here's the interesting part.

03:30:21.040 Well, then you come up against my paradigm, and I don't start with the supposition that

03:30:25.160 everyone should be able to vote, even if everything affects them.

03:30:27.620 Equality is not the basis for your worldview.

03:30:28.920 No, because that's stupid.

03:30:30.340 It's actually functionally stupid.

03:30:32.500 Do you want prisoners to be able to vote that they can give themselves guns in prison?

03:30:36.560 Give themselves guns in prison?

03:30:38.140 Yeah.

03:30:38.580 They can vote on that.

03:30:39.420 They're going to get outvoted, Andrew.

03:30:41.820 And there can still be, wait a second, there can still be protections in democracy that

03:30:46.240 don't make it mob rule.

03:30:48.300 That's fine.

03:30:49.520 I'm not saying that we should give prisoners guns.

03:30:52.240 I'm saying that, of course...

03:30:52.740 But you want them to be able to vote on being able to give themselves guns?

03:30:56.740 I want them to be able to vote on that, but I don't think...

03:30:59.280 I think there can be overriding considerations.

03:31:01.220 I think there can be overriding considerations, Andrew.

03:31:03.500 There can be overriding...

03:31:03.900 I thought they could be...

03:31:04.560 Y'all should be able to vote.

03:31:05.320 Hold on.

03:31:05.940 Look at the Bill of Rights.

03:31:07.360 Okay.

03:31:07.580 We have something that is designed to counter the majoritarian practice of voting.

03:31:12.240 No.

03:31:12.660 No.

03:31:12.900 Actually, at the local level, what is it?

03:31:15.100 What is it?

03:31:15.700 At the ordinances and statutes.

03:31:17.220 No.

03:31:17.660 Ordinances and statutes.

03:31:19.300 So, have you ever heard of the Sinyasins?

03:31:23.060 Enlighten me, Andrew.

03:31:23.660 Okay.

03:31:24.080 So, the Sinyasins took over.

03:31:25.580 They were a cult.

03:31:26.540 And they took over a small town.

03:31:28.260 I don't remember.

03:31:28.620 I think it was in Oregon.

03:31:29.460 You can pull up where the Sinyasins were.

03:31:32.280 I don't remember where it was.

03:31:33.860 But they took over the entire local town.

03:31:35.680 Because what they did was they moved in.

03:31:38.040 They bought land right next to it.

03:31:39.640 Thousands of acres.

03:31:40.620 They were inside of that municipality.

03:31:42.120 And so, what they did was they went and voted themselves all of the positions of power inside of that town.

03:31:46.600 And they ended up poisoning a lot of people in that town.

03:31:49.640 Right?

03:31:50.080 They took over all the police stations, everything else.

03:31:52.500 The problem that you have is the Tenth Amendment.

03:31:54.680 You forget about this.

03:31:55.640 Which is that powers which aren't delegated to the...

03:31:58.060 Are reserved for the states.

03:31:58.720 I'm not saying they're not reserved.

03:32:00.360 Localized municipalities within those states, especially prison towns,

03:32:04.000 The prisoners can actually outnumber everyone else in the town.

03:32:07.860 So, they could actually, by your view, if they were able to vote and have federal protections for voting,

03:32:13.620 Vote themselves fucking guns.

03:32:15.580 And the state couldn't overrule it.

03:32:17.460 They couldn't overrule it.

03:32:19.220 No, that's not the case at all.

03:32:20.360 It is the case.

03:32:21.400 Different if states can make election law.

03:32:24.900 Bro.

03:32:25.060 That's different from the federal government.

03:32:27.020 Can states make election laws which violate the federal constitution?

03:32:31.880 No.

03:32:32.140 Because the Tenth Amendment doesn't apply, right?

03:32:35.120 Well, the Tenth Amendment does.

03:32:35.620 So, if it is the case that there's an amendment...

03:32:37.440 But I'm saying it wouldn't apply to them.

03:32:38.200 If it is the case that the Tenth Amendment says you can't abridge voting for anybody,

03:32:41.920 Which would be exactly what we would need for a right for everybody to vote.

03:32:45.200 Right?

03:32:45.660 Just like we had the 19th Amendment.

03:32:47.360 Just like we have the 19th Amendment.

03:32:48.080 Why can't you make a carve-out for prisoners?

03:32:49.560 What would be the argument for making a carve-out for prisoners, but not for children?

03:32:52.880 Because you just said everyone should be able to vote, and they'll always get outvoted.

03:32:56.800 But that's actually not the case.

03:32:58.140 If you made the amendment for all people to be able to vote, the states could not actually tell prisoners inside of counties where there's prisons, where they outnumber everyone, that they can't vote themselves guns, you doofus.

03:33:08.320 No, because state election law can be different.

03:33:10.680 I'm not saying...

03:33:11.140 No, it can't violate federal law.

03:33:13.300 I'm saying that the federal law would probably, and should, have provisions in it that ensure...

03:33:19.060 That not everyone can vote?

03:33:20.660 Yes, Andrew.

03:33:21.340 Oh, you're a fucking genius.

03:33:23.320 You mean exactly what I propose, that not everyone can vote?

03:33:25.840 I think that prisoners should be able to vote in federal elections.

03:33:28.280 Absolutely.

03:33:29.500 Because that type of policy directly affects them in a way that state...

03:33:33.720 All policy affects them.

03:33:35.140 Of course it affects them.

03:33:36.100 But state policy has to do with more integral things like that, and they should not be able to vote themselves out of power or out of prison.

03:33:44.640 I'm not saying...

03:33:45.200 Why not?

03:33:46.100 They have the power to vote.

03:33:47.280 It doesn't violate the federal constitution.

03:33:49.080 What's the problem here?

03:33:50.420 I think the problem is you're looking at the problem of people voting...

03:33:53.100 The problem is you don't want those fucking people to vote.

03:33:55.440 No, I don't.

03:33:56.020 And you won't admit it because it's another inconsistency in your worldview.

03:33:59.020 Just admit it.

03:33:59.760 No.

03:33:59.920 You don't want them to vote.

03:34:01.520 Admit it.

03:34:02.020 I don't want them to vote at the local level.

03:34:03.480 You don't want them to vote, period, because they're dangerous to society, and you want to take dangerous people and abridge them from voting against you.

03:34:11.040 Okay.

03:34:11.500 Isn't that true?

03:34:12.480 No, Andrew, it's not.

03:34:13.320 Oh, yes, it is.

03:34:14.220 Okay.

03:34:14.980 And your worldview just got exposed real bad there, too.

03:34:17.400 I'm sure.

03:34:18.560 I was running a style of argument, Andrew.

03:34:20.820 Okay?

03:34:21.120 It was a terrible style.

03:34:22.020 Okay, thank you.

03:34:23.260 What was the argument again that everybody should be able to vote?

03:34:25.340 The argument that kids should be able to vote.

03:34:27.500 I think a lot of the justifications for it kind of fail on the same basis.

03:34:31.920 Because I understand your worldview, Andrew.

03:34:33.840 Because if you think women shouldn't vote and most people shouldn't be able to vote, then you do have a consistent position.

03:34:39.300 Okay.

03:34:40.120 I'm going to let them.

03:34:40.760 There's a lot of chats.

03:34:42.060 A lot of chats to get through, so I'm going to let them come through while we have Oliver still here at the table.

03:34:46.120 Andrew's just getting the smoke.

03:34:47.020 It's underscore A underscore L underscore H underscore A underscore X donated $69.

03:34:53.360 My mom and stepfather are 18 years apart.

03:34:56.140 She is in 40s.

03:34:57.060 He's 60.

03:34:57.680 He's been together 20.

03:34:58.820 It works.

03:34:59.360 Lol.

03:34:59.640 Grow up, kid.

03:35:00.720 Quick response to this, Oliver.

03:35:02.680 Sure.

03:35:03.080 I'm not saying it can't work for individual people 18 years apart.

03:35:06.760 I do think that that's, I mean, I would be curious.

03:35:09.540 I've been together 20.

03:35:10.720 Yeah.

03:35:11.060 I'm not trying to make prescriptions for everyone.

03:35:13.080 Okay?

03:35:13.260 I'm not trying to say, I'm not trying to say that for every single person it's not going to work in a particular way.

03:35:17.980 I'm saying that, I think that like 41-year-olds who like exclusively seek out 18-year-olds, no.

03:35:24.660 Like seek out people who are at least closer to their age, at least out of college, at least have something that's not just high school in their experience.

03:35:33.300 Being a child.

03:35:34.220 All they have, all they know is being a child if they're 18.

03:35:37.280 They've just turned 18.

03:35:38.860 Like this is such a, I don't know.

03:35:41.200 It's just, I don't know.

03:35:42.780 It's.

03:35:43.060 Yeah.

03:35:43.420 If you guys want to get a message in, $69 TTS, that's streamlabs.com slash whatever.

03:35:48.680 We've got a bunch coming through.

03:35:50.320 Oliver Hader.

03:35:51.320 Okay.

03:35:51.660 Oliver Hader donated $69.

03:35:53.780 You got a hater.

03:35:54.500 Oliver, would you address the time that you allegedly exposed yourself without consent to a young woman leading you to get canceled on TikTok?

03:36:02.480 Oliver, just, are you wearing this, just because of camera angles, are you wearing underpants?

03:36:12.020 I am wearing pants, yes.

03:36:12.980 Underpants.

03:36:13.780 I am wearing underpants, yes.

03:36:14.420 Okay, just because the angle, because your leg, the camera might just, I didn't want like a crotch, a flash.

03:36:23.000 Did you want to respond to the message?

03:36:25.060 I don't really need to give a full response to that.

03:36:27.160 Into the mic.

03:36:27.740 I don't really need to give a full response to that.

03:36:29.820 You know, teenagers do stupid things.

03:36:32.220 I did nothing that was out of line for a teenager.

03:36:35.300 You are right.

03:36:35.980 There was an incident on TikTok, why I left TikTok for a while, and now I'm back because I think that people make

03:36:41.580 mistakes as teenagers.

03:36:43.400 I did not do anything that was out of the ordinary behavior in that sense.

03:36:48.200 I thought this might get brought out, but I guess it did on here.

03:36:50.560 So, yeah.

03:36:51.440 Okay.

03:36:51.700 We have 4J Whitetails coming through.

03:36:55.220 4J Whitetails donated $69.

03:36:58.820 Andrew, you're the goat shout out.

03:37:01.100 Oliver, you are a beta male that sounds like you were raised by a woman with no male presence

03:37:06.060 in the household.

03:37:07.620 Man, I'd like to come on this show, ma.

03:37:09.580 Okay, Whitetails, appreciate the message.

03:37:14.080 We have Loco Burrito coming in here.

03:37:18.300 Whitetails, appreciate the message.

03:37:19.900 Thank you, Loco.

03:37:20.340 Loco Burrito donated $69.

03:37:23.320 Do you believe an 18-year-old should have the agency to start an account and do stuff on camera

03:37:29.120 but shouldn't have the agency to date a 41 yom?

03:37:32.080 Quick response to this if you can.

03:37:33.420 Sure, I can give a response to that.

03:37:34.200 But, once again, I'm not saying agency in terms of they should be prohibited from doing so.

03:37:38.820 They can do it if they want.

03:37:39.860 I just think it's a bad idea.

03:37:41.500 And I think camera is different than real life.

03:37:43.460 Okay, we have USM Crib.

03:37:47.240 Thank you.

03:37:48.020 Big $200.

03:37:48.940 Thank you so much, man.

03:37:50.060 W's in the chat for Crib.

03:37:51.000 Oliver needs to put on his wig, lipstick, and eyeshadow.

03:37:54.000 Andrew is the best.

03:37:55.780 Keep up the great work.

03:37:57.520 By the way, I did not say when I had my nails painted, they were painted black.

03:38:04.200 I was dating a goth woman.

03:38:07.300 Were they black?

03:38:07.640 Did you paint them black?

03:38:08.800 She painted them black.

03:38:09.960 But they were black.

03:38:10.780 Black.

03:38:11.740 Is that the most masculine?

03:38:13.300 Thank God.

03:38:14.020 Well, I can at least, from like a rock star view, I guess understand the black.

03:38:19.140 But, dude.

03:38:19.740 Look.

03:38:20.140 But that's not the same thing as like, okay, honey, you can paint them.

03:38:23.620 Put sprinkles on them.

03:38:26.200 It's not a threat to masculinity.

03:38:29.000 This was mid-2000s.

03:38:32.440 My Chemical Romance.

03:38:34.460 You know, Helena.

03:38:36.960 I'm not okay.

03:38:37.740 Look, it's still bad.

03:38:39.660 It was peak.

03:38:40.740 Look.

03:38:41.040 It's at least more understandable, I would say.

03:38:43.080 It was kind of peak, you know, getting into the hipster era.

03:38:46.900 Anyways, here.

03:38:47.640 There's a bunch.

03:38:48.280 Let me get them through.

03:38:51.800 Sahar Wizard, thank you.

03:38:53.120 He donated $69.

03:38:55.500 All of his objections apply to rich versus poor.

03:38:58.040 It's all class, yeah.

03:38:59.020 So a lawyer who marries a barista who is a predator, even if in the same age group.

03:39:04.240 All right, Wizard.

03:39:05.100 Appreciate that message.

03:39:06.980 Chef Dill Pickles coming in.

03:39:08.160 Oh, yeah.

03:39:08.420 What's up, by the way, Wizard?

03:39:09.560 I haven't seen him in there for a while.

03:39:10.940 Thank you, Wizard.

03:39:11.580 Appreciate it.

03:39:12.100 We got a bunch.

03:39:13.160 So if you guys do want to give responses, I just ask if responses are quick.

03:39:16.900 Chef Dill Pickles donated $100.

03:39:18.880 Thank you, Pilt.

03:39:19.580 Man lies and identifies as woman and passes.

03:39:22.300 Doesn't hold the belief.

03:39:24.800 Do you expose them?

03:39:25.920 Good question.

03:39:26.680 Yes.

03:39:30.620 Sure.

03:39:31.160 Oh, was this just for Andrew?

03:39:32.420 I don't know.

03:39:33.240 Okay.

03:39:34.640 Man lies and identifies as woman.

03:39:36.500 Doesn't hold the belief.

03:39:37.580 Okay.

03:39:38.040 I mean, he exposed them either way.

03:39:39.760 Thank you, Dill Pickles.

03:39:41.280 Thank you so much, man.

03:39:42.020 Appreciate it.

03:39:42.380 We got Nevermind back again.

03:39:44.420 Thank you.

03:39:45.080 We had, I think.

03:39:46.520 Nevermind donated $70.

03:39:48.000 Nevermind.

03:39:48.500 My grandfather fought in World War II, EU country.

03:39:52.840 Yep.

03:39:53.160 He married a much younger woman.

03:39:55.200 She held the authority when it came to familial matters.

03:39:58.620 They remained together until death.

03:40:01.040 Age is not authority.

03:40:02.280 Which is really interesting because this would lean in very quickly to the utilitarian argument

03:40:08.360 that he would make, which is that post-World War II, actually, it was somewhere around

03:40:12.520 two-thirds of the young men of France between World War I and World War II were completely

03:40:15.500 decimated.

03:40:16.260 And so women married older men.

03:40:19.060 That was who was available.

03:40:20.180 And guess what?

03:40:20.640 They had great lives.

03:40:21.860 In fact, the tradition is in such a state of ongoingness in France that their very president

03:40:28.640 did the same fucking thing, dude.

03:40:31.160 It's a terrible argument.

03:40:32.580 All right.

03:40:32.940 We have Ogle here.

03:40:35.400 We got a lot.

03:40:36.040 Can I just try to get them out as sure as possible?

03:40:38.560 Ogle, on this call, glue.net donated $69.

03:40:41.240 Ogle, thank you so much, man.

03:40:42.160 I appreciate it.

03:40:42.180 I think Oliver sells young women's intelligence and capability is short.

03:40:46.500 As a man at a certain position in life, I can guarantee you the women looking for older

03:40:51.220 rich guys are themselves quite exploitative.

03:40:54.280 Which is really funny because while he does the goddess worship thing, the woman worship

03:40:58.620 thing, I'm the actual one in the room who sees women as ontologically being equal to men.

03:41:04.540 I see them as being literally, by the state of being, the value of women being equal to

03:41:10.440 men, whereas he elevates.

03:41:12.300 That's what's so funny about it, ultimately.

03:41:17.020 All right.

03:41:17.900 One shot.

03:41:18.620 Thank you.

03:41:18.820 One shot to 17 donated $69.

03:41:22.120 Oliver, 18-year-olds can take on social responsibilities like getting sent abroad and getting their limbs

03:41:28.360 blown off.

03:41:29.700 Also, Oliver, 18-year-olds shouldn't date people established in life market take.

03:41:34.820 Hold on.

03:41:35.420 Ideally, the goal is that no one gets their arms blown off.

03:41:38.300 That's great.

03:41:38.980 And I'm against the draft.

03:41:40.940 So, yeah, probably we shouldn't be sending people to get their arms blown off.

03:41:44.400 Do you think that draft, right, they can still join the military at 18 either way?

03:41:48.220 Sure.

03:41:48.900 And still go get their limbs blown off.

03:41:50.480 Okay.

03:41:52.360 Okay.

03:41:53.040 We have Christopher.

03:41:54.340 Hey, Christopher.

03:41:54.980 Thank you, man.

03:41:55.840 Christopher Scott donated $69.

03:41:58.980 I'm going to help you out, Ollie.

03:42:00.520 Just say you don't have a refutation for age gap relationships.

03:42:04.320 It's okay to not have answer all the time.

03:42:06.520 I agree.

03:42:06.820 I would have had more respect for that.

03:42:08.740 But instead, he said, I do have refutations.

03:42:10.460 I just don't want to give them.

03:42:11.560 That's bullshit.

03:42:12.120 I think at a certain point when someone's arguing that, like, that behavior is acceptable, there's no point in responding.

03:42:19.220 That doesn't.

03:42:19.800 Why?

03:42:20.540 That makes no sense.

03:42:22.120 I'm not.

03:42:22.780 I'm not.

03:42:23.000 Yeah, that makes no sense, dude.

03:42:24.820 So you're not going to respond to arguments because you don't believe in them?

03:42:28.160 I'm not saying I don't believe in them, Andrew.

03:42:29.840 Yes, you are.

03:42:30.400 I'm not going to concede to you that it's okay for a 41-year-old to date an 18-year-old because it's not.

03:42:34.800 But also refuse to give refutations.

03:42:36.580 I was giving refutations.

03:42:37.920 You gave nothing.

03:42:38.280 Just because you don't like the refutations doesn't mean.

03:42:39.960 What was the refutation?

03:42:41.060 Give me one.

03:42:41.420 You already gave the refutations.

03:42:42.480 That it was exploitative and then you immediately contradicted it.

03:42:45.060 People are in different stages of life.

03:42:47.900 Everyone's in different stages of life, too.

03:42:49.260 Correct.

03:42:49.700 And there's some people who are more than others.

03:42:51.340 And just because I can't draw my line.

03:42:52.300 At the same age.

03:42:53.600 Correct.

03:42:53.880 At the same age.

03:42:54.600 And if they are the same age, that lessens the likelihood that they are in vastly different stages of life with different experiences and things of that nature.

03:43:03.280 No, actually it doesn't.

03:43:04.260 Because of the amount of people who are similarly aged who date each other.

03:43:08.800 The fucking pool is way larger for differential life experiences in comparison to the few people who have age gap relationships based around attraction, dude.

03:43:17.780 You actually expand the pool.

03:43:19.540 You expand the pool for exploitation and only hyper focus on this because from the feminist purview you want men to look like predators.

03:43:26.280 I don't want men to look like predators.

03:43:27.760 Then what?

03:43:28.800 Every argument you make seems to be that the man's being predatory here.

03:43:33.180 I think that if a man or a woman who's 41 is trying to date someone who's 18, that is predatory.

03:43:38.460 It's not precluded on gender.

03:43:41.260 Yeah.

03:43:41.540 Except for some reason I have a feeling that if we went down this road even more, I could very quickly expose that you would think it was worse when men did it than when women did it.

03:43:50.320 I think it is absolutely and I'll admit that right now because men are stronger and men are stronger and men can exert their will.

03:43:56.600 It's a literal misandrist view.

03:43:58.000 It is not an equal view.

03:43:59.340 Because men and women aren't equally strong.

03:44:01.240 But they can equally exploit.

03:44:03.360 Men can more easily exploit.

03:44:04.680 No, men can't always more easily exploit, especially in age gap relationships.

03:44:09.060 Especially in age gap relationships where women have a ton of resources and access to the slander.

03:44:14.000 No, that is not the case that the 18-year-old is just going to strong armor into submission, dude.

03:44:19.100 That's ridiculous.

03:44:20.980 Even if we were to take this exploitative route, that still makes no sense.

03:44:25.740 Okay.

03:44:26.000 Just a quick clarification for the audience.

03:44:29.620 Oliver, so just your position here is that when it comes to age gap relationships, both are bad but worse when men date younger women?

03:44:39.480 Yep.

03:44:40.280 Just a clarification.

03:44:41.300 Correct.

03:44:41.980 Largely.

03:44:42.480 It doesn't mean, wait a second, it doesn't mean in every case.

03:44:45.080 It doesn't mean in every case there's going to be exceptions to that.

03:44:46.780 Sure, nothing's a monolith.

03:44:47.980 Of course.

03:44:48.460 But just one point of clarification.

03:44:52.180 Are age gaps between older women and younger men, are they totally in the clear for you?

03:44:59.060 Or they're bad but not as bad?

03:45:01.460 It depends.

03:45:01.820 Well, no, it depends on the age gap.

03:45:04.220 In general.

03:45:04.760 I don't like to rank things on badness.

03:45:08.460 Neither of them should happen.

03:45:10.100 Just don't.

03:45:10.740 By the way, I just want to point out that your issuance there on saying that strength is the big differential on the age gap thing for why it's worse for men than women.

03:45:18.820 You would also have to make this case.

03:45:20.340 When it's the case that a male teacher sleeps with a female student who's underage versus a female who sleeps with a male student, wouldn't you have to concede that that's actually worse when it's a female or a male who sleeps with a female student?

03:45:33.040 No, these are children, Andrew.

03:45:34.540 These are children, Andrew.

03:45:35.260 No, no.

03:45:35.600 They can age 18.

03:45:36.700 Let's say they're 18.

03:45:37.660 I mean, it's still power differentials, so it's someone abusing a position of authority.

03:45:42.400 Yeah, I know.

03:45:42.740 But wouldn't it be worse because the man's stronger, right?

03:45:46.360 No, Andrew.

03:45:47.660 No?

03:45:48.140 No.

03:45:48.360 Well, then you contradict yourself again.

03:45:49.780 Oh, my God.

03:45:50.340 It's a second time, dude.

03:45:51.540 Fine.

03:45:51.720 If you want the position to be, it's equally wrong for men to date women who are 18.

03:45:57.180 But you don't believe that.

03:45:59.820 I don't care about that belief because it doesn't really matter.

03:46:02.680 You don't care about the belief that you believe?

03:46:04.080 No, because in either way, it shouldn't happen.

03:46:07.320 Oh, okay.

03:46:07.760 It shouldn't happen.

03:46:08.420 But still, when we get down to the dynamics, it seems like you worship women.

03:46:12.160 Now you're backtracking on the belief that you don't really believe, but you believed

03:46:14.980 five seconds ago.

03:46:16.100 Isn't that interesting?

03:46:17.200 How everything's always tailored towards the bashing of men.

03:46:19.640 Every single time we get to the differentials, men bad, men bad, men bad.

03:46:23.300 Don't you agree that men are generally stronger than women?

03:46:26.160 Yes, of course.

03:46:27.220 But that doesn't mean that I agree, especially in modernity, that when it comes to things

03:46:31.020 like social, men are completely discouraged from even physically defending themselves from

03:46:35.800 women.

03:46:37.000 Discouraged from it.

03:46:37.760 Women are not discouraged from slandering men.

03:46:40.500 In fact, it's you go girl.

03:46:41.780 If they have a dating website where they're like, this guy is bad.

03:46:43.960 He has a small dick, this and that.

03:46:45.420 They have made slander websites and they're fucking encouraged to do it.

03:46:49.480 Men aren't encouraged to beat women's brains in, dude.

03:46:52.940 Anywhere in the West, they're not encouraged to do that.

03:46:56.240 We got, it looks like almost 10 chats.

03:46:58.900 We're going to let them through.

03:46:59.740 By the way, Ogle, I do see your specific message.

03:47:02.740 I'm going to let these come through just so I can get them pulled up and then I'll pull up

03:47:05.860 your specific message.

03:47:07.520 Ogle, we have Based Thor here.

03:47:10.640 Based Thor donated $69.

03:47:13.680 It's predatory for older men to date younger women.

03:47:16.760 But why don't we shame younger women for preying on older men for their resources then?

03:47:21.720 Typical shame tactic trying to turn something legal predatory.

03:47:25.480 Anna Nicole Smith.

03:47:26.520 Who's that director who's dating, it's, uh, who's dating a younger guy currently.

03:47:33.860 Well, just look at Ashton Kutcher.

03:47:35.740 I mean, the list goes on and on.

03:47:37.120 I want to tell you who's donated $69.

03:47:37.620 Oh, to me more, yeah.

03:47:39.020 Oliver is not for feminism.

03:47:41.180 Think from the women's side.

03:47:43.140 If she's 18 and wanted to marry to 41, then you should be on her side.

03:47:48.220 Oliver, stop being a hypocrite.

03:47:50.420 You're just losing the debate.

03:47:51.920 Do you deny the hypocrisy allegations or...

03:47:56.640 Um, no, I don't.

03:47:58.100 Wait, then you should be on her side.

03:48:00.280 Just because you believe in feminism doesn't mean you believe in every single woman's choice

03:48:04.140 being the correct decision.

03:48:05.360 It doesn't mean you just go, rah, rah, women, no matter what.

03:48:08.340 So...

03:48:08.740 Sure.

03:48:09.600 Uh, there's a bunch more coming in.

03:48:11.920 We've got Oliver's...

03:48:12.480 Oliver's right.

03:48:13.820 ...donated $69.

03:48:14.980 He has been right a lot.

03:48:15.800 I agree with Oliver that women are easily manipulated by predatory people.

03:48:20.300 They also shouldn't be allowed to enter contracts where they can fall into debt by predatory

03:48:25.160 institutes like college or credit.

03:48:27.520 Quick response on this.

03:48:28.160 Not specific to women as well, okay?

03:48:31.520 Of course not.

03:48:32.640 Okay.

03:48:33.280 Thank you, Oliver's right.

03:48:34.720 We have Deeznates again.

03:48:36.580 Thank you, Deeznates.

03:48:37.280 Appreciate it.

03:48:37.660 Deeznates donated $69.

03:48:39.020 Thank you, thank you.

03:48:40.320 What if we looked at 18 plus relationships on a case by case?

03:48:44.500 I know more 20s have been beat by their 20s-year partner, not their 40-year partner.

03:48:50.200 I won't draw a line at a specific age.

03:48:53.240 I draw a line at 18.

03:48:55.300 Exactly.

03:48:56.460 Two forms of...

03:48:58.780 Well, one's a hypocrisy.

03:48:59.820 The other's just a straight contradiction.

03:49:02.180 I'm not going to...

03:49:03.580 It's a threshold.

03:49:04.880 I'm not going to draw a line in it except 18's the line that I draw.

03:49:07.940 It's like, it's just bullshit.

03:49:09.480 All right.

03:49:09.960 We have Robert Tanner.

03:49:11.400 Hey, good to see you, man.

03:49:12.300 Thank you.

03:49:12.580 Robert Tanner donated $69.

03:49:17.160 Hey, Andrew and Brian.

03:49:18.840 Good show tonight.

03:49:19.980 Thank you, thank you.

03:49:20.460 I am still confused on Oliver's definition of predatory.

03:49:23.960 I'm confused.

03:49:25.260 Robert Tanner.

03:49:26.300 Why I haven't seen you send in $69 yet tonight.

03:49:29.920 And you need to send in another $69 as a fucking apology.

03:49:33.020 Wow.

03:49:33.520 That's what...

03:49:34.240 Damn, Robert.

03:49:35.200 Andrew's got the point there.

03:49:36.360 All right.

03:49:36.560 We got SIV.

03:49:38.100 Whoa.

03:49:38.380 Thank you, man.

03:49:38.960 Appreciate it.

03:49:39.600 Zero donated $69.

03:49:41.800 Thank you.

03:49:42.440 Andrew, you're wasting time.

03:49:44.920 This kid is arguing against age gaps because he is 21 and older men are his primary competition

03:49:51.040 for women his age.

03:49:52.900 For the reason 40 years slash show female feminists share his view.

03:49:58.260 Would you date a conservative woman?

03:50:01.120 What do you mean by conservative?

03:50:03.200 Probably not.

03:50:03.560 Like if she was just stacked, though.

03:50:05.740 Like she was stacked.

03:50:07.280 I wouldn't date someone who doesn't share my core values.

03:50:10.280 So no, I would not.

03:50:11.520 But she's stacked.

03:50:12.380 No.

03:50:12.920 Okay, just check.

03:50:13.860 Okay, a little banter.

03:50:15.040 All right, a little banter.

03:50:15.760 Would you date a woman if she was submissive?

03:50:18.800 I already kind of answered this question in my last debate.

03:50:21.660 Like all the time?

03:50:23.560 Sure.

03:50:23.700 Like she wanted to submit to my authority?

03:50:25.000 No, I wouldn't.

03:50:25.540 What if she wanted to submit to it like 80% of the time?

03:50:27.860 No.

03:50:28.600 70?

03:50:30.100 Once again, Andrew, line drawing problem here.

03:50:32.120 Well, in this case, I'm not even going to hold you to it.

03:50:34.420 I'm just curious.

03:50:35.940 Like if she was just mostly submissive, let's just say that.

03:50:38.320 I wouldn't want someone who's mostly submissive.

03:50:40.040 So you want a vexing fucking woman who gave you attitude?

03:50:42.220 There we go.

03:50:43.260 Man, there's the dichotomy that he likes to draw.

03:50:44.920 Having someone who is assertive, knows what they want, is intellectually stimulating, is smart, has goals, has hobbies, has achievements.

03:50:51.540 It's equivalent to Andrew of being someone who's constantly nagging you because he can't see the difference between women who are high achieving and those who apparently are nagging and completely terrible.

03:51:02.420 There's no false dichotomy.

03:51:03.780 Do you agree that you would never have any issues with nagging from a woman who is 100% submissive?

03:51:09.280 What?

03:51:09.640 Would you agree with me that it can't be a false dichotomy because if it is the case that you had a woman who was 100% submissive, you wouldn't have to worry about nagging?

03:51:20.340 I mean, presumably not.

03:51:22.200 No.

03:51:22.480 Yeah, so then if there was just a – she nagged 1%, she was only 99% submissive, then it can't be a false dichotomy because this would mean – what's the entailment here?

03:51:32.380 Again, one more time, I'm just going to ask you.

03:51:34.340 100% submission means no nagging ever, right?

03:51:37.780 That's not the point I made.

03:51:38.820 Yeah, it is the point you're making.

03:51:40.200 So I'm talking about is it possible for a woman to be smart, career-driven, enjoy having many different varieties of hobbies, engaging in intellectual conversation, and not doing whatever you described, vexing something like that?

03:51:52.900 Is that possible?

03:51:53.500 Of course.

03:51:54.060 Okay, so then why did you characterize what I said I value in a woman as that?

03:51:59.620 Because what you're talking about is something which is trivially true, and I'm talking about something which is objectively true.

03:52:05.000 So it's trivially true that you can make the threshold like you can have a woman who has all the girl boss things and also doesn't nag you that much.

03:52:13.800 There's a little bit of nagging, maybe not that much.

03:52:16.100 There's going to be some nagging, though.

03:52:17.460 There's no way around that, right?

03:52:19.240 Period.

03:52:19.740 You agree, right?

03:52:20.680 There's going to be at least some.

03:52:21.880 Depends what you mean by nagging.

03:52:23.520 Well, whatever you think nagging is.

03:52:24.980 There's going to be at least some.

03:52:25.980 I think there's likely going to be nagging in any type of relation – a little bit.

03:52:29.860 I think there should always be a little bit.

03:52:30.780 Unless they're 100% submissive, right?

03:52:32.200 No.

03:52:32.600 Yeah.

03:52:33.040 Well, correct.

03:52:34.120 Yes.

03:52:34.900 Okay, so then what you're saying, right?

03:52:37.740 What I'm saying is objectively true.

03:52:39.180 What you're saying is only trivially true.

03:52:41.080 And I will agree with what's trivially true if you agree with what's objectively true.

03:52:45.200 Yeah, if a woman is 100% submissive, she probably would not be nagging.

03:52:47.940 Yes, perfect.

03:52:48.980 Fine.

03:52:49.420 Cool.

03:52:50.180 I don't want a 100% submissive woman.

03:52:52.360 We've got some more chats to get through.

03:52:54.920 Oh, wait.

03:52:56.660 TXVET19.

03:52:57.440 Thank you, TXVET.

03:52:58.340 Thank you.

03:53:00.000 Andrew, my man, I commend you for your patience.

03:53:03.060 Listening to Oliver has made me want to smash my own nuts with hammer just to feel something worse hearing his voice.

03:53:10.920 You are Saint Andrew.

03:53:12.060 Well, hang on.

03:53:12.840 In Oliver's defense, right?

03:53:14.420 Like, I've given him a lot of shit, and we've been debating back and forth, but I do appreciate him coming out to the debate.

03:53:20.760 Some of these debates can get brutal.

03:53:22.240 We're ideologically completely distinct.

03:53:24.340 But I actually do appreciate that, and I don't have any ill will towards the guy, ultimately.

03:53:30.640 I do have an ill will towards his view.

03:53:33.900 Okay.

03:53:34.520 All right.

03:53:34.880 We've got Red Fox here.

03:53:35.960 Thank you.

03:53:36.000 But it also makes me want to do the exact same thing.

03:53:37.820 Red Fox donated $69.

03:53:39.820 Kidding.

03:53:40.380 Oliver, a coherent worldview is important because it ensures you're never caught in a debate unable to justify claims on dating gaps, bestiality, and incest beyond your preference.

03:53:52.200 Not one step back.

03:53:53.300 Not one step back.

03:53:54.760 Okay.

03:53:54.960 So, here's the thing.

03:53:56.600 Quick response, if you can.

03:53:57.600 Yeah, 100%.

03:53:57.980 Quick response.

03:53:58.620 If someone thinks that large dating gaps, bestiality, what were the other ones, like, are good things, then, yeah, you'll disagree with me, and I'm not going to contest you on that.

03:54:08.280 I'm not trying to argue with that there.

03:54:09.860 Okay?

03:54:10.060 I'm not trying to debate whether bestiality is okay.

03:54:13.040 So, like, that's fine.

03:54:14.020 If you disagree with me on that, then you disagree.

03:54:16.180 Fine.

03:54:16.880 You won't accept my worldview, or you won't accept what I've been presenting.

03:54:18.780 Yeah, but a lot of these were direct.

03:54:20.060 That's fine.

03:54:20.500 We're direct to feminist ideologies and feminist positions, and he wanted to backtrack and kind of run away from those as well, and that is actually what you were supposed to be here defending.

03:54:32.120 I was defending this version of feminism, and you were caricaturizing a version of feminism that I didn't articulate.

03:54:38.660 You're stronger families.

03:54:39.440 It doesn't matter what you articulate.

03:54:41.580 We have different views on what feminism even is, and when we get to points we do agree, at least, are feminist points.

03:54:47.480 You decided that you were going to run from one.

03:54:49.860 And you know why you did it?

03:54:51.040 To virtue signal.

03:54:52.180 You literally only did it – and I wish, like, in this case, can you just admit you literally ran from that argument only because you wanted to virtue signal and say, I will not dignify this with a conversation.

03:55:05.540 That was actually what the goal was, isn't it?

03:55:07.260 It's not about dignifying it with a conversation.

03:55:09.140 It's this conversation wasn't going to go anywhere, Andrew.

03:55:11.560 Yes, it was.

03:55:12.200 No, it wasn't.

03:55:12.740 And it did.

03:55:13.480 No.

03:55:13.680 We got to get a lot of your view on how it is that you unequally hold standards to men versus women like a typical feminist.

03:55:20.040 It was able to expose a lot of that worldview.

03:55:22.080 You didn't want to get into it because of a form of virtue signaling.

03:55:25.580 Same reason you got up to get a cup of water.

03:55:27.280 What did you do that for?

03:55:28.080 I got it up to get the cup of water because I don't want to hand my cup to someone who you just designated.

03:55:33.200 I understand it was a joke, but it's not a joke in your worldview.

03:55:37.260 Virtue signaling.

03:55:38.360 It's not virtue signaling, Andrew.

03:55:39.480 How is it not?

03:55:40.320 Because it's something that I believe in.

03:55:42.340 I don't believe.

03:55:43.100 No.

03:55:43.240 Listen.

03:55:43.860 Do you believe that I had any ill intention towards that woman?

03:55:47.460 Actively?

03:55:47.960 Probably not.

03:55:48.480 No.

03:55:48.900 You don't believe that for a second.

03:55:50.600 And you knew she wasn't in any distress.

03:55:52.160 One second.

03:55:52.620 Actively.

03:55:53.100 You wanted to any leftist who watches this.

03:55:55.360 Actively.

03:55:55.780 Virtue signal to them and say, listen, look at what I did which was righteous.

03:56:00.340 No.

03:56:00.460 It's fucking bullshit.

03:56:01.480 No.

03:56:01.740 People see right through it.

03:56:02.760 No.

03:56:02.860 You said.

03:56:03.880 A lot of your beliefs.

03:56:05.200 They see right through it, dude.

03:56:05.600 A lot of your beliefs do view women as less than men.

03:56:08.760 Watch.

03:56:09.260 Which ones?

03:56:09.580 Absolutely.

03:56:09.880 Do you think most men should vote?

03:56:12.860 No.

03:56:13.360 No?

03:56:13.660 Do you think most women should vote?

03:56:15.520 No.

03:56:16.060 No?

03:56:16.300 Not at all?

03:56:16.820 No.

03:56:17.240 Okay.

03:56:17.500 Do you think women should be able to have the same opportunities to work outside of the

03:56:20.560 home?

03:56:22.460 Opportunity, but not encouragement.

03:56:24.140 So women shouldn't be encouraged to work, but men should be encouraged to work.

03:56:26.880 Men should be encouraged to defend.

03:56:28.640 So men should be encouraged towards certain roles and women towards certain roles, which

03:56:32.360 are good for society.

03:56:33.360 Okay.

03:56:33.580 This is actually putting equal amounts of duties, just different duties on both.

03:56:37.780 And I think those prescriptions put box women into this box of what it means to be a woman.

03:56:43.600 Well, good.

03:56:44.620 So.

03:56:44.840 The thing is, like, good.

03:56:45.920 That's the problem.

03:56:46.520 If it is the case that we box people into social roles, which are really good for society,

03:56:51.200 that's fucking good.

03:56:52.660 And not only that, again, you didn't respond to this, and I want your response to this.

03:56:57.580 How is that not a virtue signal?

03:56:58.900 Look in the camera and tell them why that wasn't virtue signaling.

03:57:01.220 Can you please tell me what you mean by virtue signaling?

03:57:04.240 Yeah.

03:57:04.460 Because virtue signaling means, like, insincerity, right?

03:57:07.820 It was insincere.

03:57:09.180 You knew that there was no distress.

03:57:10.500 Nobody was distressed, right?

03:57:12.200 What happened was I cracked a joke.

03:57:14.780 She obviously got it.

03:57:15.900 You obviously got it.

03:57:16.700 He got it.

03:57:17.320 Everyone got it, which was dunking on my perceived misogyny.

03:57:20.620 That was the joke.

03:57:21.520 And he fucking knew that was the joke.

03:57:23.100 In order to signal to your leftist buddies, who might be watching this later, that you're

03:57:28.500 really on the woman's side, you decided, I will not dignify this by having her get

03:57:34.000 my cup of water.

03:57:34.900 You got it.

03:57:35.140 I don't want to be associated with what you said, Andrew.

03:57:37.740 How's that not virtue signaling?

03:57:39.020 It's exactly virtue signaling.

03:57:40.140 If you want to use virtue signaling in that sense, you're using it as a form of insincerity.

03:57:43.660 And I'm not being insincere.

03:57:44.380 It is insincere.

03:57:45.400 It's not insincere.

03:57:46.320 Of course it is.

03:57:47.080 If she had come over and just grabbed your water and went and filled it up, would you have

03:57:50.820 let her?

03:57:51.080 Yes.

03:57:51.780 Why?

03:57:52.280 Because you didn't associate it with, hey, get me a beer, woman.

03:57:56.480 So you decided that you wanted to show a contrast between something you didn't believe where

03:58:00.720 you just said you believe that that was a joke.

03:58:03.340 And now suddenly though, you didn't want to be associated with its pure insincerity.

03:58:08.840 People can tell jokes that are bad, that reinforce bad things that I don't want to be associated

03:58:13.600 with.

03:58:13.760 Nothing was reinforced with being bad because you didn't believe it.

03:58:16.780 That's what makes it insincere.

03:58:17.900 Most of your audience does believe it.

03:58:19.740 You don't believe it.

03:58:20.660 That's what makes it insincere.

03:58:22.020 You, Oliver, didn't believe anything other than that was a joke.

03:58:26.640 That's what makes it a virtue signal.

03:58:28.700 How is that not the case?

03:58:29.840 Isn't that insincere?

03:58:31.020 No, it's not insincere.

03:58:32.240 Oh, okay.

03:58:33.580 Here, let's let, we got chats coming.

03:58:35.500 Let's try to get through the chats.

03:58:36.740 We got Josh Brooks here.

03:58:37.880 Brooks donated $69.

03:58:40.120 Thank you, Josh.

03:58:40.760 I was busy cutting down a tree.

03:58:42.960 What did I miss?

03:58:44.340 Is he like the guy yesterday where he will argue aside but then say he doesn't mind if

03:58:49.000 that argument is conceded due to some nonsense factors?

03:58:52.280 I got a question for Josh, just real quick.

03:58:54.840 Josh, when you cut down your tree, when you make your initial notch, well, not your initial,

03:59:00.200 but your final cutting notch before you saw all the way through, do you cut your notch

03:59:04.540 bottom up or top down?

03:59:07.520 I got to know.

03:59:09.180 I just, I got to know.

03:59:10.900 And he has a follow-up here, not to your question, but...

03:59:14.680 Thank you, Josh.

03:59:15.580 Appreciate it.

03:59:15.780 Watching the back and forth for the past half hour has answered my previous question.

03:59:20.520 Thanks for being here for another banger debate, Andrew.

03:59:23.900 Brian and Andrew look slimmer.

03:59:26.000 Da-a-ha, yam-ma-a.

03:59:28.400 I have been losing weight and it shows.

03:59:30.760 It does show.

03:59:31.320 Appreciate it.

03:59:31.520 We have Wizard coming, then we have Hey You, then we have I Love Gothic Women.

03:59:35.300 Okay.

03:59:35.440 Uh, thank you, Wizard.

03:59:37.940 Sahar underscore Wizard donated $69.

03:59:41.400 Andrew presents his views regardless of how it may get clipped.

03:59:45.440 You should not be so scared to express your view, too.

03:59:48.880 It's funny.

03:59:49.740 I like you.

03:59:50.880 Please fill this survey so I see which stage of life.

03:59:56.020 Alright, thank you, Wizard.

03:59:57.620 Appreciate it.

03:59:58.300 Very good characterization.

03:59:59.220 We got some more coming through.

04:00:01.180 Hey You, thank you.

04:00:02.260 Hey You donated $69.

04:00:03.860 If you guys want to get one in, streamlives.com slash whatever.

04:00:06.040 College itself is the predatory practice in league with the lenders, but I bet Oliver thinks

04:00:10.300 women should go to college to get a useless degree where they can be indoctrinated with

04:00:15.400 feminist lies.

04:00:16.520 Quick response if you'd like on this.

04:00:18.080 Go ahead, Oliver.

04:00:18.900 I have no response to that.

04:00:20.180 Okay.

04:00:20.380 No.

04:00:20.480 Excuse me, not my wife.

04:00:21.680 Can you grab me a beer?

04:00:23.760 Is that number three or number four?

04:00:25.100 That's number four, right?

04:00:26.600 That's number four.

04:00:27.660 Yeah.

04:00:28.060 Alright, we have...

04:00:29.100 I appreciate it.

04:00:30.020 Oh, this didn't come up.

04:00:31.120 Here it is.

04:00:31.620 I love gothic women.

04:00:32.720 Thank you.

04:00:33.040 You love the gothic women donated $69.

04:00:36.440 Andrew and Brian, great FN show guys.

04:00:38.860 Appreciate it.

04:00:38.920 We actually tested Oliver's testosterone.

04:00:54.900 We made him do a blood test before the show.

04:00:57.700 He's actually really high T.

04:01:01.320 Come on, Oliver.

04:01:02.600 I was gassing you up.

04:01:04.120 He was like setting that up for you, bro.

04:01:06.160 I was giving you a...

04:01:07.380 You could literally have just dunked right there.

04:01:10.020 It was like...

04:01:10.500 No, because it's...

04:01:10.960 No, look.

04:01:11.680 We administer blood tests before the show.

04:01:14.080 Oliver, his testosterone, blood level, or whatever it is, very high.

04:01:19.840 What I lack in testosterone, I make up for in bitterness.

04:01:25.160 Alright.

04:01:26.260 We have Giovanni here.

04:01:28.040 Giovanni.

04:01:29.200 Giovanni Jade, he donated $69.

04:01:32.600 I was defending you, Oliver.

04:01:33.840 I was defending you.

04:01:36.160 The problem is.

04:01:37.080 And why the line is irrelevant and the moral justification is what matters.

04:01:42.500 Uh, thank you.

04:01:43.220 Wait, what?

04:01:44.060 And why the line?

04:01:44.900 Yeah, he's asking what's a completely straight line.

04:01:46.820 I see.

04:01:47.300 Got it.

04:01:47.800 We have Marine, baby nine.

04:01:50.240 Thank you so much, Marine.

04:01:51.700 By the way, Giovanni's awesome.

04:01:53.900 Marine, baby nine, donated $69.

04:01:56.980 He was kind of talking shit to you, though.

04:01:58.180 Electric, historic, GDP, good.

04:02:00.180 Baby's bad.

04:02:01.480 Also, Oliver certified, pre-cooked.

04:02:03.780 Okay.

04:02:07.100 Leftist rhetoric, GDP, good.

04:02:08.880 Maybe he's bad.

04:02:09.220 Oh, okay.

04:02:09.720 I see.

04:02:10.560 All right.

04:02:11.340 Uh, thank you for that, Marine, baby.

04:02:13.640 We have Oliver, Oliver Hater back.

04:02:16.440 He's said the same one.

04:02:18.840 Oliver Hater donated $69.

04:02:20.680 Do you want me to skip this one?

04:02:21.820 Sure.

04:02:21.940 Oliver, would you address the time that you allegedly exposed yourself without consent

04:02:26.520 to a young woman leading you to get canceled on TikTok?

04:02:31.340 Yeah, we're not going to.

04:02:32.140 Sorry, sorry.

04:02:33.000 I'm not here for, like, a little bit of, like, you're a doofus or things like that.

04:02:37.580 I think that that's fine in rhetoric for debate, but I'm not interested in trying to

04:02:41.680 dive into this guy's personal life.

04:02:44.580 Uh, Oliver, would you like a refill on water?

04:02:47.000 Um.

04:02:48.080 Whoa.

04:02:48.700 Top.

04:02:48.880 Josh Brooks donated $69.

04:02:51.920 Thank you, Mary.

04:02:52.320 The final notch has to come from the top down while holding tension with the rope in the

04:02:56.940 fall direction.

04:02:58.280 That way the chain doesn't get stuck from the bottom up.

04:03:01.520 Weight is a mother effer.

04:03:03.620 Yo, uh, Josh Brooks.

04:03:05.220 Thank you so much, man.

04:03:06.580 We have, uh.

04:03:07.560 I've seen it.

04:03:08.160 Well, I swear I've seen people cut that notch from the bottom up.

04:03:13.340 Like, I've, I'm, I'm almost sure of it.

04:03:16.000 I mean, you're probably right.

04:03:17.000 I don't know.

04:03:17.400 So, you know, I've cut down some trees and I always do it from the top down, but.

04:03:21.160 Got Glocktavius here.

04:03:22.460 This is for, I think, all of her.

04:03:23.980 Glocktavius donated $69.

04:03:25.680 Should a woman's past not matter slash does body count matter?

04:03:30.660 Into the mic if you can.

04:03:31.840 It can matter to particular people.

04:03:33.460 Like, I don't, I don't really have a problem if someone's like, yeah, like, sex is really

04:03:37.780 meaningful to me.

04:03:38.620 You know, I, I view it as something that's, you know, deeply connective between two people

04:03:42.440 and I want someone who shares that view of it and they want to engage in that type of

04:03:46.780 thing, so.

04:03:47.980 Glocktavius donated $69.

04:03:51.100 Should a woman's past not matter slash does body count matter?

04:03:55.480 Would you date a woman with 100 plus slash 1000 plus bodies?

04:03:59.820 I mean, so I think that person would likely have interests and things that divulged so

04:04:04.920 much of me and who I am that probably not, but I don't think.

04:04:08.720 But it's not because of that.

04:04:10.520 Well, I mean, it could be because they chose to spend more time doing that instead of other

04:04:14.060 things.

04:04:14.500 What if they held all the interests that you hold, but one of their hobbies was to fuck

04:04:18.080 a lot of men?

04:04:19.400 Yeah.

04:04:20.640 Okay.

04:04:20.960 It's fine.

04:04:21.420 You would date them?

04:04:23.080 I would not close myself off to the fact just because of that.

04:04:26.360 Now, obviously that's including.

04:04:27.220 So you would date them?

04:04:28.280 I would be open to dating them, but.

04:04:30.340 It wouldn't be a disqualifier from dating them.

04:04:31.780 It would not be a disqualifier.

04:04:32.620 Yeah.

04:04:32.840 No.

04:04:33.140 Okay.

04:04:33.580 All right.

04:04:34.000 We have, he's just sent in a bunch.

04:04:36.580 Glocktavius donated $69.

04:04:39.160 Is it straight to date a transgender woman?

04:04:42.200 Would you date a transgender woman?

04:04:44.580 I'm not commenting.

04:04:46.460 Would you?

04:04:48.220 I wouldn't.

04:04:49.220 Would you?

04:04:49.600 I would not.

04:04:50.140 Do you want to comment on the first question?

04:04:51.760 I would say that it's gay if you suck a man or a woman's dick.

04:04:55.640 Okay.

04:04:56.140 Would you?

04:04:57.100 I have no opinion on that matter.

04:04:58.300 Just yes or no?

04:04:59.460 I have no opinion on that matter.

04:05:00.700 You don't have an opinion?

04:05:01.680 I'm not going to tell someone.

04:05:02.760 Do you ever have any opinions, bro?

04:05:03.920 I do.

04:05:04.280 I've expressed a lot of my opinions.

04:05:05.100 Then it's not if you say, well, I don't.

04:05:07.780 I don't really care what it's called because I think it doesn't become more legitimate or

04:05:13.760 less legitimate, whether it's straight or gay.

04:05:16.500 So when you're trying to box me into a corner.

04:05:18.180 Is it homosexual or heterosexual?

04:05:18.880 So the word homosexual has been used differently.

04:05:24.500 Usually you're correct.

04:05:25.620 No, it's not.

04:05:26.420 It's never been used differently.

04:05:27.820 It always means the same thing.

04:05:28.920 Same sex, sex.

04:05:29.820 Okay, cool.

04:05:30.780 Right?

04:05:31.580 When is it ever?

04:05:32.360 Actually, like now I'm curious.

04:05:33.960 When is it ever been used differently?

04:05:35.100 I'm explaining to you what people use it for now.

04:05:39.000 They use it right now to express same sex, sex.

04:05:42.100 Sometimes people now, if a trans man is dating a cis man, then they would consider that a

04:05:49.000 gay relationship.

04:05:49.860 It doesn't matter if it fits the definition of homosexual.

04:05:54.380 I don't care.

04:05:55.360 I don't really care how people choose to live their lives.

04:05:57.840 I'm not going to tell them, well, technically it's not this.

04:06:00.460 It just doesn't pertain to me.

04:06:03.140 We got Texas Vet Andrew.

04:06:05.460 Thank you for your patience with this.

04:06:08.500 That's what he said.

04:06:09.400 Beer makes it better.

04:06:10.420 Look, beer makes it easier.

04:06:11.640 That's why I brought some beer in this morning or this afternoon.

04:06:15.600 I don't know how you keep your cool, bro.

04:06:17.000 I would be catching charges right now if I tried talking to this guy.

04:06:21.020 Well, hey, let's not.

04:06:21.960 I don't think he's a, listen, like he's young.

04:06:24.120 Like, you know, in 10 years, he might be just like me.

04:06:28.920 He might be just like me and not think it right now.

04:06:32.620 Oliver says he hopes not.

04:06:34.420 All right.

04:06:34.660 Thank you for that, Vet.

04:06:36.240 Robert Gardner.

04:06:37.240 How often does Oliver put on his lipstick, eyeshadow, and high heels?

04:06:41.160 I imagine at least once a week, FOS, he, she is.

04:06:46.240 Okay.

04:06:46.640 All right.

04:06:47.720 We have Daniel Stein.

04:06:48.920 Thank you, Robert, for that previous message.

04:06:51.420 Daniel Stein, Australian 69.

04:06:53.520 Somehow bending over for, for woman is for women.

04:06:58.640 No, we can't read it, bro.

04:07:00.100 Oh, sure.

04:07:00.700 No.

04:07:01.120 And he's Australian.

04:07:01.840 Dude, if you, bro, if you bring in the, the woman, women without using the parole, right,

04:07:06.140 it's just done.

04:07:06.760 We're not reading it.

04:07:07.420 It's even worse that it's in text form.

04:07:09.440 Yeah.

04:07:09.660 We're not.

04:07:10.100 Hey, that's the thing.

04:07:11.400 Like, that's what makes it so that we just can't read it.

04:07:14.280 Let's not screw him over though.

04:07:15.700 No, no, no.

04:07:16.100 He screwed himself over.

04:07:17.120 Sorry, Daniel.

04:07:17.660 Send it back in with women.

04:07:18.680 I'm making the executive call here.

04:07:20.220 I'll give Brian the $69.

04:07:22.240 No way.

04:07:22.720 I'm sorry, Daniel.

04:07:23.420 Andrew, Australian, which Andrew has some gripes with the, the Aussies.

04:07:27.380 So I got to defer to him on this one.

04:07:29.340 We have Rachel Wilson.

04:07:32.840 Imagine Oliver's outrage.

04:07:34.020 If he knew I serve Andrew all his, this is Andrew's wife, by the way, all his meals and

04:07:38.200 drinks, submit to his authority and love him dearly.

04:07:42.460 It's terrible.

04:07:43.720 Well, you all are happy.

04:07:44.620 You know, I'm pretty happy.

04:07:46.220 Okay, good.

04:07:46.960 That's all I'm.

04:07:47.460 She's pretty awesome.

04:07:48.260 I must admit.

04:07:48.940 Good.

04:07:49.280 All right.

04:07:49.540 You know what I do with her?

04:07:50.100 You know what I do though?

04:07:50.900 Uh-oh.

04:07:51.300 When, when she sells her, it's like, it's like she just got her, her book put on Kindle

04:07:55.220 form, which she's been fighting for forever.

04:07:56.960 Right.

04:07:57.420 By the way, it's a cult feminism.

04:07:58.780 All of you go buy it.

04:07:59.640 Here's why.

04:08:00.900 Because when, and this is no bullshit.

04:08:02.900 I promise you this is true.

04:08:03.980 When my wife gets her book royalties monthly, I take all of them and go spend it on guns.

04:08:08.660 And even if she wants to prioritize it for something else, I just do it as like a petty

04:08:14.460 form of revenge because I spent all those years taking good care of everybody.

04:08:19.060 I just want to like, I just want to like rub it in her face.

04:08:21.500 Like, I'm just taking this from you because I think it's funny, Oliver.

04:08:25.500 What the fuck?

04:08:27.460 Yeah.

04:08:28.240 Okay.

04:08:28.740 Here's a couple more chats and we'll get back to the debate.

04:08:31.660 Lucy donated $69.

04:08:34.260 Wow.

04:08:34.600 Hey, Brian, I've heard to my husband.

04:08:36.620 He had the biggest smile on his face.

04:08:39.500 Oliver, you have to hold women accountable for their actions or else they will walk all

04:08:43.620 over you.

04:08:44.860 I don't think that I'm not holding women accountable for their actions.

04:08:47.220 If a woman lies to me, if a woman is deceptive, if a woman doesn't, you know, do what we agree

04:08:52.300 upon or walks back on arrangements, that is unfair, then obviously, yeah, I would hold

04:08:58.360 her that.

04:08:59.240 Thank you, Got Knife.

04:08:59.720 Oliver is the kind of man that wakes up early to make breakfast for his girlfriend's boyfriend.

04:09:05.960 Hmm.

04:09:07.240 By the way, if you guys want to get a message in streamlabs.com slash whatever, $69 TTS.

04:09:12.300 We have a few more, then we're going to get right back into it.

04:09:14.740 Ogle, we're going to get to you in just a moment.

04:09:17.740 Sorry for the delay here.

04:09:18.520 There's more to get back into?

04:09:20.220 Yeah, a little bit.

04:09:21.620 Red Pill Ranger donated $69.

04:09:24.200 Thank you, Red Pill Ranger.

04:09:24.920 When women are younger, they have all the leverage.

04:09:27.700 Leverage?

04:09:27.940 As men get older and build themselves up, the roles reverse.

04:09:31.940 This is what women are really mad at.

04:09:34.460 Let's be real.

04:09:35.640 Women are the bigger predators.

04:09:38.380 Wow.

04:09:39.020 Okay.

04:09:39.420 Red Pill Ranger.

04:09:40.540 Do you have a quick response to that, Oliver?

04:09:42.920 No.

04:09:43.720 No.

04:09:44.020 Okay.

04:09:44.880 All right.

04:09:45.360 We have Glocktavius here.

04:09:47.700 Glocktavius.

04:09:48.280 Glocktavius donated $69.

04:09:50.140 Thank you, Glocktavius.

04:09:50.840 Oliver, you are a misandry apologist.

04:09:53.720 Why do you defend and hand wave away misandrist statements by women like men are trash or kill

04:09:59.240 all men?

04:09:59.940 I discussed this on the previous debate podcast episode.

04:10:02.460 I don't need to rehash all of that again.

04:10:04.160 Well, I think it might, it would be fair to, did, did it?

04:10:07.740 We did with Jim Bob.

04:10:08.960 Remember?

04:10:09.560 We're talking about all that.

04:10:10.320 Briefly at the end, but this is a new debate.

04:10:13.220 Do you want to touch on it?

04:10:14.860 Not really.

04:10:15.300 I mean, Andrew, if you want to inquire.

04:10:17.060 I mean, I've already asked this previously, but I'll ask it again.

04:10:20.620 Why is it that it's misogynist when men say things like, oh, I don't know, go get

04:10:25.420 me a beer woman versus like kill all men?

04:10:28.420 Okay.

04:10:28.940 Is that misandry?

04:10:29.820 I believe it could be a type of misandry.

04:10:33.900 However, I don't think they are on the same equivalent level because men are not killing

04:10:38.560 women and they don't hate all men.

04:10:41.460 So women do kill them.

04:10:42.700 Yeah, they do.

04:10:43.540 At the, at the rates that men kill women.

04:10:46.180 Are these women?

04:10:47.000 Oh, well, this is interesting.

04:10:48.560 Are these women, are these women who are saying this largely?

04:10:51.340 First of all, first of all, the requisite shouldn't be whether or not they kill them.

04:10:56.380 That's like the ultimate.

04:10:57.880 Well, kill all, if they're saying kill all men.

04:10:59.440 They're not killing them.

04:11:00.260 Yeah.

04:11:00.400 If they say they hate all men.

04:11:01.400 Women do, do actually kill men at much higher rates than are reported.

04:11:04.900 Usually they do it through the medical field, right?

04:11:07.920 Like most women who are like psychopathic serial killers and whatnot.

04:11:13.520 What positions do you think they're in?

04:11:15.860 I don't know, dude.

04:11:16.520 What do you think?

04:11:17.560 Do you think they're in caregiver positions?

04:11:19.100 Sure.

04:11:20.100 Oftentimes, yes.

04:11:20.940 But when it comes to like killing men, also psychostalker women have killed men many times.

04:11:24.940 Okay.

04:11:25.140 I can give you many famous cases of this.

04:11:26.840 Sure.

04:11:27.340 Yep.

04:11:27.500 But also, when we're talking about impact, even if it's not them killing them, it promotes inside of society this general feeling that men can be devalued.

04:11:38.020 That's still really bad, even if they don't have the power to enact death on men.

04:11:43.020 Isn't it?

04:11:43.620 I think that when women say these things, they're not expressing that they hate all men.

04:11:48.400 They hate the experiences that they've had with some men.

04:11:51.320 So then wouldn't that be the case with like white and black people?

04:11:54.240 I mean, we've gotten to this before.

04:11:55.460 No.

04:11:56.100 Why?

04:11:56.440 Because there, is there a systemic issue of violence from black people against white people?

04:12:01.880 Oh, wait a second.

04:12:02.640 When it comes to violence between men and women, just to make sure I get this right.

04:12:06.940 You're making the case that because you think men perpetuate the majority of violence towards women.

04:12:13.200 Correct.

04:12:13.620 That women collectively, if they have the experience to try to devalue men based on that, that's acceptable.

04:12:18.980 Devalue is different than expressing their disdain for the way that they've been treated in imperfect language.

04:12:25.420 Then isn't it the case that blacks perpetuate far more violence towards whites than whites towards blacks?

04:12:30.080 Okay.

04:12:30.600 Hey, Oliver, isn't that the truth, Oliver?

04:12:33.080 Mm-hmm.

04:12:33.780 Isn't it?

04:12:34.620 If we're looking at interracial, let me explain it.

04:12:36.860 If we're looking at interracial, instead of intraracial, you are correct.

04:12:40.420 There is a disparity.

04:12:41.760 However, who are you more likely to be killed by in terms of race?

04:12:46.040 Most likely.

04:12:46.820 Blacks.

04:12:47.300 Per capita.

04:12:48.020 Someone of your own race.

04:12:49.120 This is factually the case.

04:12:50.380 Okay.

04:12:50.600 85% of white people are killed by other white people.

04:12:53.280 90% of black people are killed by other black people.

04:12:55.360 What race is more likely per capita to kill you?

04:12:58.240 You?

04:12:58.760 Me and you?

04:12:59.320 White.

04:12:59.880 Because we're not black, so we don't live in those, largely live in those neighborhoods.

04:13:02.900 Hang on, hang on.

04:13:03.300 It's proximity crime.

04:13:04.320 A lot of this is proximity crime, Andrew.

04:13:06.040 Hang on.

04:13:06.460 A lot of this is proximity crime.

04:13:07.180 If it is the case, though, that when white people collectively deal with black people and they're getting mostly violent responses.

04:13:15.860 And the data shows that they get, are getting violent, like women, wait a second, women don't mostly get violent responses from men.

04:13:26.300 Women overwhelmingly do.

04:13:28.080 Mostly?

04:13:28.860 Violent responses from men?

04:13:30.320 Hold on.

04:13:30.620 A lot of women.

04:13:31.480 Do you think, hold on, I'm curious.

04:13:33.120 Do you think-

04:13:33.600 No, no, no.

04:13:33.940 I need this answer.

04:13:35.060 No, no, no.

04:13:35.260 No, no, no.

04:13:35.660 Do women mostly get violent responses from men or not?

04:13:38.220 Not all men, no.

04:13:38.960 No, no, no.

04:13:40.160 From, just, generally, do women generally get violent responses from men?

04:13:46.780 They have the experience of it, yes.

04:13:48.320 So, just so we're clear, Oliver says women generally get violent responses from men.

04:13:54.640 Probably not most of the time.

04:13:56.540 I'm not claiming most of the time.

04:13:57.580 So then women don't generally get violent responses from men?

04:14:00.660 No, no, no.

04:14:01.600 We clarify it now.

04:14:02.900 I want it clarified.

04:14:04.240 Do women, do they, or do they not generally get violent responses from men?

04:14:09.520 On, like, every day?

04:14:11.440 Just ever.

04:14:12.240 Are we talking about catcalling?

04:14:13.620 Are we talking about harassment?

04:14:14.500 Are we talking about assaults?

04:14:14.980 Any criteria you want.

04:14:16.880 Whatever criteria you decide on, do they generally get violent responses from men?

04:14:22.340 So, I mean, probably not violent, no.

04:14:24.420 Okay.

04:14:25.120 Why didn't you fucking answer?

04:14:26.260 So, is it the case, then, that if it is the case, when it comes to, you know, white versus black crime, for instance, or murder interracially between the two?

04:14:36.180 Who's perpetuating it, though?

04:14:37.160 Let me just hang on.

04:14:38.200 On gender lines.

04:14:38.820 Hang on.

04:14:39.080 Stop, stop.

04:14:39.880 Isn't it the case that it's also true that generally whites aren't getting, like, they're generally, they're not being responded to by violence by black people, right?

04:14:49.440 Correct.

04:14:50.060 Let me explain.

04:14:50.740 It's the same shit, bro.

04:14:51.520 Okay, Andrew, do you think a majority of white people, like, if you were to ask white people, have a negative, violent, or harassment encounter that they can explain at the hands of a black person, a majority of white people?

04:15:05.260 If they interact with black people?

04:15:07.500 If they do, just in general.

04:15:09.020 Do you think that they have an experience, a negative experience, most white people?

04:15:12.720 If you were to ask them, is it, like, a pervasive issue that you think if you ask most white people and decide they can be like, oh.

04:15:17.860 If they're around black people a lot, I think that a lot of them would say that, yes.

04:15:22.840 Okay.

04:15:23.260 And who do you think they mostly have bad experiences with, black men or black women, largely?

04:15:27.520 If we're talking about crime, if we're talking about violence.

04:15:29.040 Yeah, both.

04:15:29.440 Okay.

04:15:29.940 Who overwhelmingly, though?

04:15:31.200 I don't even think overwhelmingly.

04:15:32.220 I think it would be probably, like, maybe, like, 70, 30.

04:15:35.500 Okay.

04:15:35.900 I don't know the statistics on that.

04:15:37.980 Neither do I.

04:15:38.140 I don't know.

04:15:38.660 I'm just guessing.

04:15:39.260 I would say, so, my point in all of this, and I just, I don't, I feel like we're getting so far away from it.

04:15:43.740 No, we're not.

04:15:44.540 This is just consistency.

04:15:45.380 No, so if we're talking specifically about this whole man, whether you should fear men, it's always, it's still men.

04:15:52.340 You know what I mean?

04:15:52.800 Even if you try to change it to a racial demographic, it's still the men who are doing most of the harm.

04:15:59.380 I see.

04:15:59.860 So it's a man problem, not a race problem.

04:16:01.260 Okay, okay, okay, hang on.

04:16:02.420 Let's back up, though.

04:16:03.300 Okay.

04:16:04.160 Do you agree that you're a gender abolitionist?

04:16:07.340 No.

04:16:08.540 You're not?

04:16:08.980 I'm not a gender abolitionist.

04:16:09.920 Okay.

04:16:10.600 I still think there can be men and women.

04:16:11.620 When we're talking about groups, though, you would agree that we are talking broadly in groups when we say men versus women.

04:16:17.520 Sure.

04:16:18.060 That's group identity.

04:16:19.640 Fine.

04:16:20.560 Yeah.

04:16:21.040 Yeah, okay.

04:16:21.740 And racially, also, we're talking about group identity?

04:16:25.720 Yes.

04:16:26.360 Okay, so if we're talking about group identity, why is it okay for us to make classifications on group identity between men and women, but not via race?

04:16:32.880 Because it's not black women who are doing the harm.

04:16:36.860 It's still men.

04:16:37.760 The common denominator is still men.

04:16:41.060 So do you think that, like, white women, for instance, right, would experience greater amounts of harm from black women than they would from white women if they categorize the experiences between both?

04:16:52.580 No.

04:16:53.100 I don't know the data.

04:16:54.000 I don't know.

04:16:54.580 Probably not.

04:16:55.520 No.

04:16:55.900 So if they're around lots of black women and lots of white women, do you think they would report more negative experiences from black women or white women?

04:17:03.600 They might, but that doesn't necessarily say, hold on.

04:17:05.560 It would actually be a racial thing, wouldn't it?

04:17:08.160 That would be a racial thing, wouldn't it?

04:17:09.800 You're asking questions that neither of us know the answer to.

04:17:12.880 I do know the answer to this.

04:17:13.980 Yes, it is the case that if you have, and this is the case almost trivially with any race, if you were to take almost any race and put them predominantly where there's a lot of another race, they're going to have a lot of problems.

04:17:26.600 Generally speaking, they're going to have a lot of problems.

04:17:28.180 However, the racialism, which is fully charged in this nation, it does appear that people do have a lot more issues on the white-black front when it comes to white people being discriminated against by blacks.

04:17:39.700 And so because this is the case, when you're talking about group identity, you say, no, it's all men.

04:17:44.600 It's like, no, it's not all men.

04:17:46.880 In fact, there's lots and lots of white women who report these negative outcomes when they are dealing with black women and white men who say they're negative outcomes with black men.

04:17:56.860 Now we have a group.

04:17:58.920 Yeah?

04:17:59.560 Now it's not just men versus women.

04:18:02.200 Is it, Oliver?

04:18:02.860 Oliver, is it just men versus women?

04:18:05.080 Then if you have the group?

04:18:06.120 I still think it is because I am not convinced of this idea that there is a mass amount of black women who are, like, causing violence against white women.

04:18:16.040 I didn't say that.

04:18:16.520 Never said that.

04:18:17.120 So then it's not about the women part.

04:18:19.080 I don't believe that the case of the matter is, is that if you say it's just based on experience, right, you agree with me, not every woman or even close to every woman's been SA'd.

04:18:31.660 Not every, but I think it's a large proportion.

04:18:34.500 Based on the, but if there's less men around, there's going to be less SA.

04:18:38.540 Sure.

04:18:39.080 Okay.

04:18:39.540 Same thing is going to happen within racial identitarianism.

04:18:42.920 If it is the case that we group by white versus black, if white women are reporting more negative, you know, problems when they are around groups of black women, white men are reporting more problems when they're around groups of black men or black women.

04:18:57.740 Okay.

04:18:58.240 Right.

04:18:58.520 Why is that group identity not now valid for them to make that claim of egregiousness towards their group?

04:19:05.560 Because once again, and I've said this already, I don't, you, you have said that black women, that, do you think most white women, here we go.

04:19:15.520 Do you think most white women can cite a negative experience that she's had, that she's had at the hands of a black woman?

04:19:20.820 If they're around a lot of black women.

04:19:22.400 Okay.

04:19:22.560 But most aren't.

04:19:23.620 Yeah.

04:19:23.740 But that would be the same trivially true case with women.

04:19:27.120 Women are always around men and you can't get away from it.

04:19:30.700 Yeah.

04:19:30.900 But that's the same trivially true case when it comes to men.

04:19:34.360 If women are not introduced to a large amount of men, their chances for these negative experiences drastically decrease.

04:19:41.200 It doesn't have to be that way.

04:19:42.240 So you would, you could say we could have like a gender segregated society if it's entirely women and entirely men?

04:19:47.380 Well, let me give you examples.

04:19:48.420 All women schools, um, you know, all women sports teams, all women, the chances of you having negative experiences with men drastically decrease.

04:19:56.860 Of course, because they're not there.

04:19:57.480 I agree.

04:19:57.940 So then what are you talking about then?

04:19:59.580 I don't, you don't know what you're talking about, Andrew.

04:20:01.620 Okay.

04:20:02.020 So if it is the case that if you can segregate by the sexes, which we do all the fucking time and it decreases the negative experience that you have with the opposite sex.

04:20:10.120 And you say that it's perfectly acceptable for women to be validated by saying they're having egregious experiences with men.

04:20:17.140 Why would it not then be the same exact case of long racial lines to say I'm having negative experiences.

04:20:22.660 And most people are reporting negative experiences with this race.

04:20:25.860 Why is that not acceptable?

04:20:27.020 Because it wouldn't be on the basis of race that they're having the negative experience.

04:20:30.080 If they're only having the negative experiences based on the fact that you are this race, that's the only race I'm having the negative experience with.

04:20:39.180 How is that not based on race?

04:20:40.680 I don't think that they would only be having that negative experience with people of those races.

04:20:43.840 Is this one white person?

04:20:44.480 Women aren't only having negative experiences with men.

04:20:47.180 But when we're talking about men versus women, we're talking about the negative experiences they have with men.

04:20:51.640 Same thing would be applicable to race, yeah?

04:20:55.140 Wouldn't it?

04:20:55.880 No.

04:20:56.500 Why?

04:20:57.420 Once again, I'm going to explain this to you again.

04:20:59.580 Explain it again.

04:21:00.460 Use real small words.

04:21:01.560 No, I was explaining it.

04:21:02.800 Use real small words.

04:21:05.000 Race and sex are not the same.

04:21:08.140 Oh, gee, I didn't know that.

04:21:09.260 Yeah, okay.

04:21:09.720 Because when we're talking about specifically regarding sex and the threat that men pose to women, it's actually the case in the real world.

04:21:19.340 Now, we're not talking about – if concocting – in the hypothetical that you're talking about, then I guess if white women or if a woman was around primarily black people and they were consistently –

04:21:29.740 Not primarily if they just had a lot of experiences with black people and they were negative.

04:21:34.700 And it would make sense for them to be wary of them.

04:21:37.100 I'm not –

04:21:37.640 Same thing.

04:21:38.260 Same thing with white men and black men or white men and black women.

04:21:42.400 If they've only had that, it makes sense why they would make a heuristic.

04:21:44.760 And so if it is the case that if the heuristic from whites who are like polled and things like that is that they generally seem to have bad experiences when it comes to black people, they're completely validated in that, right?

04:21:58.360 If it's the case that they actually are, but they're not.

04:22:01.980 Okay, prove it.

04:22:02.580 That's the point.

04:22:02.960 I want the proof.

04:22:03.400 I've already talked about it.

04:22:04.840 85% of white people are killed by other white people.

04:22:08.160 Yes, but that has –

04:22:09.240 Bro, that's a complete red herring.

04:22:11.180 It's not a red herring.

04:22:12.080 Yeah, it is.

04:22:12.780 If it is the case, even if it's the case, let's just say like whites are killed by other whites at like fucking 20 times the amount.

04:22:20.400 But the majority of whites report that the interactions that they have with white people are positive or at least not negative.

04:22:27.300 But the majority of the interactions they have with black people are negative versus positive.

04:22:30.860 Why the fuck would it matter how many people are killed within which racial demographic?

04:22:36.020 So if a majority of white people are saying they're having negative experiences at the hands of black people?

04:22:39.640 It's 51%.

04:22:40.240 That's it.

04:22:40.620 Fine.

04:22:40.780 If they're saying that, for one, and you would have to look into why is that the case?

04:22:46.120 Are they actually experiencing –

04:22:47.060 No, no, not why.

04:22:47.820 Are they actually experiencing more –

04:22:49.420 Are they actually experiencing more violence or assault?

04:22:50.660 All that matters is the perception.

04:22:52.140 It's not the perception because women don't just perceive being assaulted.

04:22:56.000 They actually are.

04:22:57.300 No.

04:22:58.180 Here's the thing about that that's so interesting, right?

04:23:00.860 Is that we have criteria differences, don't we?

04:23:03.700 What do you consider S.A. to be?

04:23:05.720 S.A. to be?

04:23:06.540 Unwanted sexual contact.

04:23:08.640 Period?

04:23:09.520 I think, yeah.

04:23:10.260 It can include a wide variety of things.

04:23:11.960 Do you believe that it's considered a non-masculine trait for men to report when a woman has S.A.'d them?

04:23:18.540 Of course not.

04:23:19.780 Okay.

04:23:20.080 Do you think that socially, even if you don't believe that, that that is the case?

04:23:24.180 I think it can be, and that's a bad thing.

04:23:26.660 Yeah.

04:23:26.840 We should change that.

04:23:27.660 Exactly, exactly.

04:23:27.880 We should change that.

04:23:28.460 So could it be the case that things that you would classify as S.A., which is unwanted

04:23:32.660 sexual contact, could happen significantly for men and go unreported?

04:23:37.580 It could go unreported.

04:23:38.520 Yeah.

04:23:38.780 A majority of S.A. for men and women goes unreported.

04:23:41.060 So how do you actually know what the numbers are when you say that there's more men S.A.ing

04:23:44.800 women than men, or women S.A.ing men?

04:23:46.860 How do you actually know that?

04:23:47.980 Okay.

04:23:48.240 Well, first off, you're talking about something that we just don't have the data on.

04:23:51.180 Then why the fuck are you making the claim, Oliver?

04:23:53.100 What do you mean I am making the claim?

04:23:54.600 Because we do it from the data that we do have.

04:23:56.860 Oh, so the data we can't trust because most of it's unreported.

04:23:59.920 Fucking brilliant, dude.

04:24:01.120 Do you think, okay, fine, Andrew.

04:24:02.100 Then I'm going to reason from shared premises.

04:24:03.740 Do you think that it is actually the case that the rates of S.A. are equivalent between

04:24:09.140 men and women?

04:24:09.860 No, I think it's higher from women towards men by your criteria.

04:24:12.840 By your criteria of saying unwanted sexual contact.

04:24:15.380 I think because women can get away with this so much more readily, and you've seen it yourself,

04:24:19.760 and I'll demonstrate it.

04:24:20.560 Have you ever been to a college party where perhaps a woman approaches a man and maybe

04:24:25.520 just rubs his shoulders or something like that, or does touching on the arms or things

04:24:30.040 like that?

04:24:30.400 It's a very, very common experience for men who are in college.

04:24:33.040 Is it sexual?

04:24:33.640 And here's the thing that's so funny.

04:24:34.900 You can go.

04:24:35.480 Is it sexual?

04:24:36.140 Yeah.

04:24:36.480 You can go to Honey Badger Radio, and sexual is going to be perceived by the person.

04:24:41.400 So maybe most men don't perceive it as sexual.

04:24:43.160 They do.

04:24:43.720 And here's how I know.

04:24:44.760 Because when the college studies are done, you can look this up, Honey Badger Radio on Twitter.

04:24:48.900 Go over there and look at Honey Badger Radio studies.

04:24:51.460 They're amazing.

04:24:52.720 Okay?

04:24:53.440 It demonstrates 100% that when college kids are polled, men report that they are essayed

04:24:59.040 at significantly higher amounts than women if they use that same criteria as you, unwanted

04:25:04.800 sexual touching.

04:25:05.860 Okay.

04:25:06.180 It's only when we get to things like penetrative and things like this that we have a disparity.

04:25:10.620 Okay.

04:25:10.840 So it's like, no, Oliver, I don't fucking believe you.

04:25:12.980 So if we're talking about just that generally being a problem, then sure.

04:25:16.840 Then men are essayed at higher rates by your criteria than men.

04:25:19.580 Okay.

04:25:19.940 I think, first off, if we're talking about that type of contact, I'm not saying that

04:25:24.400 the contact isn't bad.

04:25:26.220 No one should be touched sexually without their consent.

04:25:29.320 However, when a woman touches a man in that way, how likely do you think it's going to lead

04:25:34.780 to a more egregious form of essay like penetrative?

04:25:38.220 This is what's so funny is like, even if it was the case that like if I went to a bear

04:25:43.960 and the bear bit me and it hurt way worse than if a mouse bit me, I still don't want

04:25:49.400 to fucking get bit by either.

04:25:51.080 Right, Oliver?

04:25:51.880 Sure.

04:25:52.160 I'm not saying either is good.

04:25:53.060 Then what are you talking about?

04:25:54.380 I'm not saying either is good.

04:25:54.840 All we're talking about is negative experiences.

04:25:56.660 I would be less likely to approach mice who bit me and bears who bit me.

04:26:00.240 Sure, fine.

04:26:00.640 So if that's the case, why would that not be the case racially, Oliver?

04:26:04.980 Because I don't think it's along racial lines.

04:26:06.380 I don't think that's what's causing it.

04:26:07.360 Because you just don't live in reality.

04:26:08.400 It's not what's causing it, Andrew.

04:26:09.920 Let me let two chats come through and then, but it's one of them's related.

04:26:13.700 Glottavius donated $69.

04:26:15.320 Glottavius again.

04:26:16.120 Thank you, Glottavius.

04:26:16.580 To Oliver the misandry apologist, saying hatred of men is not as bad as hatred of women

04:26:21.640 is in and of itself sexist.

04:26:23.640 No, that's not what I said.

04:26:24.540 Your hand-waving of misandry is growth and fuels that which you claim to be against.

04:26:28.820 So that's actually not what I said.

04:26:29.740 I didn't say the hatred of men is not as bad as the hatred of women.

04:26:32.160 And I'm saying that what most men perceive as women hating them is not hatred.

04:26:37.460 They don't hate them.

04:26:38.460 Obviously, women don't hate all men because they have many men in their lives that they

04:26:41.960 love and things of that nature.

04:26:42.960 Then the same thing is equatable to men.

04:26:45.520 Clearly, men don't hate all women.

04:26:47.820 After all, every woman who's married and is interested.

04:26:50.720 I never said men hate all women.

04:26:51.560 Then what is this argument, then?

04:26:54.580 What is this argument?

04:26:55.440 I don't think men should say, like, I don't know, like, we hate women because that is

04:27:00.460 associated with men actually killing and hating women.

04:27:04.680 And when women say we hate men, that's associated with things like we want to take away their

04:27:09.200 children, divorce them in inopportune times, create slanderous websites about them, do horrible

04:27:14.340 things to their reputations, which also will lead to what?

04:27:17.400 Unaliving.

04:27:18.080 Who unalives more?

04:27:18.840 Men or women?

04:27:19.840 Yeah, okay, so men killing women is the same as women mistreating men and men unaliving

04:27:25.760 themselves because of it.

04:27:25.900 Even if you were to make the threshold that, like, the impact was somewhat worse for women

04:27:29.740 than it is for men, you would have to agree that it would still be misandrist behavior

04:27:34.500 to make a declaration like kill all men.

04:27:37.540 I think it is imperfect language, and I think they, ideally, ideally, Andrew, I think.

04:27:41.960 But it's misogyny when men do it, right?

04:27:44.000 Because it actually leads to tangible harm.

04:27:45.840 So does the misandry.

04:27:46.820 How can you say that slander of men when reputation is...

04:27:50.780 What do you mean slander?

04:27:51.640 What?

04:27:52.040 If someone, like, goes on a slanderous campaign to falsely accuse someone of something like

04:27:55.560 that...

04:27:55.780 Kill all men is slander.

04:27:59.040 Itself is slander, Oliver.

04:28:01.140 How is it not?

04:28:01.880 How is it slander?

04:28:02.920 Because what you're doing is you're saying men deserve to die.

04:28:05.720 No, you're not.

04:28:06.140 That's slandering all men.

04:28:07.700 That's not what...

04:28:08.300 That's not...

04:28:08.620 Do you think people always say language literally?

04:28:10.980 Bro, do you...

04:28:11.500 Do you think language is always literal?

04:28:12.840 If I say...

04:28:13.420 I don't know how to misinterpret kill all men.

04:28:15.860 If I say...

04:28:15.880 Fine, Andrew.

04:28:16.460 If I say, I'm so mad, I could literally kill you.

04:28:18.540 Or do you think I'm going to kill you?

04:28:19.500 That's sarcasm.

04:28:20.580 Okay, then how is this not...

04:28:22.240 Then why would it not be equated to men?

04:28:24.280 What?

04:28:24.940 Why would that not be equated to men who say kill all women?

04:28:27.220 Because the behavior matches the words that already has.

04:28:31.640 Bro, when you say...

04:28:34.480 So what you're doing is you're doing a very regular conflationary fallacy.

04:28:39.280 Could it be the case that it is true that men kill more women than women kill men?

04:28:45.900 And at the same time, when they say kill all women, they're being just as sarcastic as women.

04:28:50.520 Is that not true that that could be the case?

04:28:52.620 It could be the case.

04:28:53.300 Then demonstrate it's not.

04:28:54.720 So what I'm demonstrating is I think that when men say they hate women, we see that borne out in the policy and things like that.

04:29:02.480 Yeah, but demonstrate that it's because of the jokes that's leading to that or that they actually mean that in a different way than women mean that.

04:29:12.520 Demonstrate it.

04:29:13.620 I'm not saying that most men who say that don't mean that.

04:29:17.020 It's the same thing.

04:29:17.880 Then it's just bullshit.

04:29:19.420 Andrew, things can have connotations, right, Andrew?

04:29:22.560 Would you say that someone, if they flew the swastika and were like, this is a sign of peace, would they be wrong in doing that?

04:29:28.800 Well, no.

04:29:29.440 Actually, there was two campaigns which did that called Reclaim the Swastika.

04:29:32.960 I'm just saying.

04:29:33.820 Fine.

04:29:34.120 And I'm not saying...

04:29:35.060 They like flew it over the beaches and were like, this is actually a sign of peace.

04:29:38.360 Okay.

04:29:38.580 And do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

04:29:40.300 Well, I would definitely try.

04:29:42.780 I think it's a very good idea for people to take the actual swastika, which is not the Nazi swastika, in order to tell people there's a differentiation between the two.

04:29:52.020 Okay.

04:29:52.560 So, do you think that people should fly a flipped thing in order to express some message?

04:29:57.380 The flipped...

04:29:58.720 What is that?

04:29:59.260 Isn't that what the swastika used to be?

04:30:00.940 No, no, no.

04:30:01.300 It's like...

04:30:02.240 Swastika used to be just a symbol of peace.

04:30:03.960 Yeah, it was curved.

04:30:04.120 It's like...

04:30:04.960 Well, I mean, you guys can discuss this, but just before we do, I did want to let Ogle's chat come through because we've been waiting on it for a while.

04:30:12.400 Sure.

04:30:12.800 Glottavius just had one follow-up, and then we'll let Ogle's come through.

04:30:15.860 Zemzig, Glottavius donated $69.

04:30:19.600 And that's no goal.

04:30:20.220 If boundary being non-lethal makes it less of a concern, then it logically follows that every other kind of bigotry is also not a big deal as long as we ensure no one is killed.

04:30:29.680 It's true.

04:30:30.680 Or it's less impactful.

04:30:31.920 But, you know, here's the bigger issue that I have here is, do you see what Oliver did here?

04:30:37.940 This to the audience.

04:30:38.860 What Oliver did is he said, because there's an impact from the thing and this thing is happening, that means this thing is associated with the impact.

04:30:46.680 Oliver has not demonstrated that because there are some men who say kill all women, and there are some women who say kill all men,

04:30:54.460 that the impact from both, even if the effect is out in the real world, not because of these things,

04:31:02.040 but there's just like an effect that happens based on whatever, that more women are killed by men than men by women.

04:31:07.560 I would like for Oliver to actually justify how it could be the case that these two things actually have anything to do with each other.

04:31:16.320 Sure.

04:31:16.740 Really quick before you do, you'll have the opportunity really quick.

04:31:19.760 I do want to let Oliver come in.

04:31:22.000 Sorry for the delay.

04:31:23.140 Bam!

04:31:23.480 Oliver, I'm good.

04:31:31.420 You're fine.

04:31:32.000 Yeah.

04:31:32.400 Let his prefrontal light carbonation continue to grow.

04:31:35.420 Cheers.

04:31:36.020 Oh, okay.

04:31:36.500 Got it.

04:31:37.460 Ogle, appreciate it.

04:31:38.740 I'm trying out.

04:31:39.600 An audience member sent me this new high-tech.

04:31:45.440 Okay, that's not working.

04:31:47.040 Oh, gosh.

04:31:48.240 I'm just going to have to do it the old school way.

04:31:50.200 I'm going to run to the restroom quick.

04:31:51.740 Okay, sure.

04:31:52.360 Andrew, do you remember, just for when Oliver gets back, you recall what the...

04:31:58.740 Yeah, I recall exactly what we were talking about.

04:32:01.960 I got this, Andrew.

04:32:05.600 By the way, by the way, Jake Rattlesnake, for those of you who don't know, he's in town here in California with me.

04:32:11.200 And there's going to be, in the next week, a huge announcement.

04:32:16.980 And you know how some streamers will be like, oh, there's a big announcement, and then it's like a dud.

04:32:21.260 You know what I mean?

04:32:21.920 Holy shit.

04:32:22.640 It's like a dud.

04:32:23.620 Now, this is an actual big announcement.

04:32:26.060 So, just saying.

04:32:27.620 I'm leaking.

04:32:28.620 What the fuck?

04:32:28.920 Give it.

04:32:29.200 Give it.

04:32:29.520 Give it.

04:32:29.980 What?

04:32:30.500 Give me.

04:32:31.140 What?

04:32:31.520 I'll take some off the top.

04:32:32.480 No, it's good.

04:32:32.880 It's good.

04:32:33.180 I stopped it.

04:32:34.020 Okay.

04:32:35.520 Okay.

04:32:36.440 Sorry.

04:32:36.940 Didn't mean to interrupt you there, Andrew.

04:32:38.320 No problem.

04:32:39.080 No problem.

04:32:39.440 Big announcement.

04:32:39.980 Big announcement coming.

04:32:40.940 Can't say what it is.

04:32:42.240 You'll probably hear about it in the next week or so.

04:32:45.260 You want champagne, right?

04:32:45.960 Again, yeah.

04:32:46.960 As many streamers will do the, like, oh, big announcement, and then it's like, not really a big announcement.

04:32:52.760 This is actually one.

04:32:54.500 Like, I wouldn't do that to you, right?

04:32:55.940 I wouldn't be like, oh, there's a...

04:32:57.220 I don't think I've ever done that.

04:32:58.560 Like, huge announcement coming soon, but this one, actually kind of big.

04:33:04.280 Just saying.

04:33:05.000 That makes sense.

04:33:05.780 Yeah.

04:33:06.860 Nice.

04:33:08.460 Guys, W's in the chat for Ogle for the big champagne pop.

04:33:13.020 Thank you, Ogle.

04:33:13.420 Ogle, I apologize for the delay on getting it pulled up.

04:33:15.360 You sent that in, like, 45 minutes ago.

04:33:17.620 Apologies for the delay.

04:33:19.040 There were just some chats I wanted to get through before, and it was a good opportunity to allow Oliver to take a brief break there while we didn't get that champagne pop.

04:33:28.020 By the way, this is five hours of debate.

04:33:29.880 We've got to wrap this, bro.

04:33:31.200 We've got to wrap this one now.

04:33:34.100 Yes.

04:33:35.020 Excuse me.

04:33:35.900 Then I'm going to have a smoke.

04:33:37.300 Oh, what?

04:33:37.980 You can't just leave me alone.

04:33:39.400 Here, wait.

04:33:39.940 Before you do, before you do, we've got to do cheers.

04:33:42.340 Oh, yeah.

04:33:42.640 We've got to do cheers.

04:33:43.940 Cheers, man.

04:33:44.600 Cheers.

04:33:45.280 Salud.

04:33:45.880 Thank you.

04:33:46.180 It's always nice to be in the Whatever Studio with the Whatever Podcast chat.

04:33:49.800 You guys are fantastic.

04:33:51.060 You've been huge supporters of The Crucible.

04:33:52.580 Even those of you who hate me, just fucking admit you missed me.

04:33:56.500 Even those of you in the chat, you're like, fucking hate Andrew.

04:33:59.880 He's bleh.

04:34:00.380 Just admit you missed me.

04:34:02.600 You fucking missed me.

04:34:04.020 Just saying.

04:34:04.540 They did, right, Brian?

04:34:05.600 They missed me.

04:34:06.000 Yeah, probably.

04:34:06.440 They did.

04:34:06.820 Yeah.

04:34:07.400 All right.

04:34:07.820 We'll let some other chats come through while Andrew takes a little smoke break.

04:34:10.980 Then we'll shortly get this wrapped up.

04:34:13.800 Biggie, thank you for the gifted five subs.

04:34:15.340 Appreciate it.

04:34:15.900 Thank you.

04:34:16.220 Thank you.

04:34:16.620 All right.

04:34:17.760 We have Experience Changes Minds.

04:34:22.440 Thank you, man.

04:34:22.960 I appreciate it.

04:34:23.380 Experience Changes Minds donated $69.

04:34:26.960 I remember thinking similar thoughts as Oliver.

04:34:30.120 Although I was not as insufferable, it took a number of toxic feminist girlfriends to wake

04:34:35.880 me up.

04:34:36.960 Take time to dive deeper, buddy.

04:34:39.180 I'm very satisfied in the relationships that I have with women and have had with women.

04:34:42.760 Of course, I've made mistakes in the past and I've learned from them.

04:34:45.180 But I think that I value someone who shares similar values to me and I genuinely do want

04:34:51.240 someone who is my equal and not someone who will be submissive to me or bend to my authority.

04:34:56.600 That strikes me as, frankly, utterly repulsive.

04:34:59.660 I don't know.

04:35:01.120 It feels weird to me when there's this large infantilization of women in which women are

04:35:10.060 treated like children on the last debate.

04:35:12.860 Jim Boblick admitted this or nodded along to it.

04:35:15.180 And yet these are also the people who they want to sleep with.

04:35:18.340 Seems a bit strange to me.

04:35:19.820 So that's all I'm going to say.

04:35:21.980 Wait, about, are you talking about Jim Bob?

04:35:24.060 He wants to sleep with, what do you mean?

04:35:26.200 No, I was saying, I think it is a bit strange or a bit unnerving that a lot of these people

04:35:31.000 are saying like they, you know, they fundamentally view women as children or something like that.

04:35:35.640 That's what Jim Boblick said.

04:35:37.020 In the debate, in my closing statement that I had with him, I even pointed out, and I said, and he's nodding right now,

04:35:42.560 and he was nodding his head up and down, and the fact that his view infantilizes women and treats them like children.

04:35:50.580 So that's what I was saying.

04:35:51.540 Oh, and you're, but can you explain?

04:35:54.780 And they also want to sleep with women, who I think they view as children.

04:36:01.100 Wait, so is there an implication there that it's like PDF?

04:36:04.360 It is, I'm not calling them that.

04:36:06.880 I'm not saying they're doing that, but I'm saying there is a correlation there.

04:36:11.640 Or there is something that, it'll be just, you know, if you only want to date people and, you know, have sex with people who you view as children or view like as infantilized, it strikes me as weird.

04:36:26.300 That's all I'm saying.

04:36:26.900 I think Andrew might bite on that argument, but.

04:36:31.080 I don't, no, we don't need to.

04:36:33.380 Well, I think he should at least hear it, but here, I'll read the rest of the chats.

04:36:36.460 Guys, we're going to have to get this wrapped up pretty soon.

04:36:39.040 And so the roast session is going to be $69 TTS if you want to get it in.

04:36:43.140 We'll do the roast if you want to get in a message, ask a question, make a statement.

04:36:47.660 We are probably going to get this wrapped up pretty soon.

04:36:49.840 We have Josh Brooks.

04:36:50.880 By the way, $69 TTS.

04:36:52.480 That's on streamlabs.com slash whatever.

04:36:54.480 Send it in through there.

04:36:56.440 Oh, hold on.

04:36:58.140 Josh Brooks.

04:36:58.720 I'll wait until Andrew's back to play that one just because it's directed at Andrew.

04:37:03.220 We do have one for Oliver, though, so I'll let that one come through.

04:37:06.880 Membirdman, appreciate it.

04:37:09.200 Thank you, thank you, thank you.

04:37:11.080 All right.

04:37:11.820 Streamlabs.com.

04:37:12.660 Oh, really quick.

04:37:13.340 Venmo Cash App.

04:37:14.120 If you want to support the show, you can do so if you do whatever pod Venmo Cash App.

04:37:20.880 100% of your contribution goes towards us.

04:37:23.040 Membirdman donated $69.

04:37:25.300 Thank you.

04:37:25.700 Appreciate it.

04:37:26.400 Oliver, come on now.

04:37:27.660 You sound deflated.

04:37:29.260 Get pumped.

04:37:30.420 Get hyped.

04:37:31.560 You've been talking out of the wrong hole all night, and the odor is fogging up the studio,

04:37:36.540 but I believe in you.

04:37:39.280 Oliver smells like flowers and other pleasant scents.

04:37:47.600 Okay?

04:37:47.940 And there's been no bad scents.

04:37:50.120 Sniffing me, Brian?

04:37:51.060 Sniffing me, Brian?

04:37:51.900 What's going on here?

04:37:52.640 When you did leave, I did sniff your chair.

04:37:54.460 Yo.

04:37:55.060 That's crazy.

04:37:55.960 Not crazy.

04:37:56.280 Yeah, it's wild.

04:37:58.600 No, but there's no bad scents emanating, no bad smells emanating from Oliver.

04:38:05.500 I will confirm it myself.

04:38:07.160 Okay, we have Jason Cassell.

04:38:10.360 Jason Cassell donated $69.

04:38:13.660 Oliver, I was a bouncer for many years at many bars.

04:38:18.340 I can tell you women were overwhelmingly more likely to be kicked out for touching men sexually.

04:38:23.860 The men didn't report.

04:38:25.000 I observed firsthand.

04:38:27.220 Jason, can you tell us, like, how long were...

04:38:29.340 Oh, well, he said many years.

04:38:30.660 Many years.

04:38:30.940 Okay, so many years.

04:38:31.580 Mr. Cassell.

04:38:32.580 Appreciate it, Jason.

04:38:33.420 By the way, something crazy just happened.

04:38:36.080 Josh Brooks donated $69.

04:38:38.380 Andrew, I've listened to your wife's book on Audible 100 times, but I can't get over the guy's voice who reads it.

04:38:46.680 It's too nasally.

04:38:48.040 It's coming.

04:38:48.860 When can we get a moist mafia crucible Don Wilson dub?

04:38:51.840 Listen.

04:38:52.200 Please, soon.

04:38:53.120 Look, I'm just going to go ahead and say it, okay?

04:38:57.600 My wife did recruit Spoons over, well, for those of you who know Spoons, you know Spoons, to do a cover of that audio book.

04:39:08.760 I can't wait to hear it.

04:39:09.720 Also, buy Cult Feminism now.

04:39:11.200 It's available on Kindle.

04:39:12.040 Buy it.

04:39:12.480 Hurry up.

04:39:12.880 Also, Brian, you've got to get control of this woman over here who's been bringing me beers and doing this all night.

04:39:21.240 So, she just asked me, after all of the horrible things I've done to her all night, if we could have a picture after this was done.

04:39:28.340 Oliver, why would she ask me for that after I dehumanized her like that, Oliver?

04:39:32.980 Why would she ask me for pictures after?

04:39:34.740 Are you asking me?

04:39:35.260 Is it maybe like for evidence for the police for all the dehumanization?

04:39:38.580 I never claimed you directly dehumanized her.

04:39:41.460 I don't know.

04:39:41.860 I feel like you need to go get your own water, bro.

04:39:44.500 I'm fine to do that.

04:39:46.220 Oh, wait.

04:39:46.680 Let me let this come through.

04:39:49.680 Wizard, thank you.

04:39:50.720 Appreciate it.

04:39:51.240 Sir, I heard the call, Wizard, donated $69.

04:39:54.180 Hats off to you, Andrew, and Brian.

04:39:57.200 Thank you.

04:39:57.660 Always.

04:39:58.560 Women outnumber men when it comes to child and elderly abuse and each other when it comes to lesbians.

04:40:04.980 Women do that to anyone they have physical power over.

04:40:10.760 Also, for the champagne pop, Ogle, I didn't feel like you got your doing proper.

04:40:14.560 Here you go.

04:40:15.260 Oliver's underscore vagina donated $69.

04:40:17.960 Oh, he's pounding it.

04:40:18.800 Oh, shit.

04:40:19.280 Hey, big guy.

04:40:20.460 The sun is getting real low.

04:40:22.320 No.

04:40:22.760 I need a good cleaning after this debate.

04:40:25.180 Oh, it's over there.

04:40:25.920 Can't be on the champagne.

04:40:27.500 It's a little bit higher in alcohol content.

04:40:29.360 That's true.

04:40:31.420 Mary, can you pass him the champagne, though?

04:40:33.060 It's over there in the corner.

04:40:34.980 Oliver's...

04:40:35.420 Wait, what?

04:40:35.980 The sun's getting real low and they're going to clean up?

04:40:37.800 No more 40-year-old men, okay?

04:40:39.780 All right.

04:40:40.540 We have...

04:40:41.260 Thank you.

04:40:43.460 Thank you.

04:40:44.120 Zip Zero donated $69.

04:40:45.860 Dehumanize you later.

04:40:46.620 Does Oliver even know that Mexican policymakers who share his view are trying to parcel in the laws where women can unalive men if they feel intimidated, regardless of proportionality or necessity?

04:40:58.480 That's not at all what I'm advocating whatsoever at all, that women should just be able to unilaterally use whatever force they want if they deem there to be a threat.

04:41:07.580 Well, hang on, though.

04:41:09.360 What you are trying to do is you're trying to draw a parallel where the behavior of women who are doing the exact same thing as men is destigmatized because you feel like it doesn't have as much of an impact on society.

04:41:18.500 I don't think it should be destigmatized.

04:41:21.320 Yeah, but...

04:41:22.620 I absolutely...

04:41:23.200 Women should not touch men sexually.

04:41:24.360 By limiting the impact of this, you are assisting with feminists and destigmatizing the rhetoric against men.

04:41:30.580 I don't see how you get around that.

04:41:31.940 No, I don't...

04:41:33.460 Andrew, I don't think it is bad for anyone...

04:41:36.560 I'm sorry.

04:41:36.980 I don't think it's good for anyone to be touched without their consent in a sexual or a romantic.

04:41:41.320 Yeah, but that's not my point.

04:41:42.160 My point is, if women put out a post that says, kill all men, and men put out the post saying, kill all women, or a man or a woman, if that is the case and you say, this one, because it's from a man, is more impactful than this one from a woman, you are pushing destigmatization towards what the woman is saying.

04:41:58.440 It's not who it's from.

04:41:59.120 It's not who it's from.

04:41:59.960 It's the message.

04:42:00.680 If a woman were to say, kill all women, that would still be a problem.

04:42:04.920 But all of them are a problem, right, Oliver?

04:42:07.300 I don't think any of them are good.

04:42:09.260 I agree with you.

04:42:10.000 Can we agree there's different levels of harm?

04:42:14.560 I actually don't.

04:42:16.520 What I think is that you take the limited amount of the unaliving, which is actually, comparatively, a fairly small amount when it comes to the amount of society that we actually have, and you say, because this is the worst outcome, therefore, this behavior is more excusable than this one.

04:42:37.480 Even though, that doesn't mean that socially, it couldn't have just as big of an impact, even if people aren't being unalive by it.

04:42:45.040 Sure.

04:42:45.700 Do you understand that?

04:42:46.800 I understand that.

04:42:48.120 Yeah.

04:42:48.240 And that's why I've always, and I've been pretty consistent in saying that.

04:42:51.780 No, you say it's less impactful, and you only justify that by the unaliving, Oliver.

04:42:55.100 Hold on.

04:42:55.460 No, I think it is less impactful.

04:42:57.700 That doesn't mean necessarily that we should be doing it.

04:42:59.700 For example, if saying, you know, I hate men or hate all men or kill all men is alienating men, which largely I think probably it is, then it's probably not a prudent solution for the feminist cause to embrace rhetoric that is pushing people away.

04:43:14.920 So I totally understand that.

04:43:17.460 Do you think that stigmatization operates based around the normalcy or acceptance of the population of the message?

04:43:25.380 Like, if I said, gays are bad, right?

04:43:29.340 That would be, you would agree, a form of stigmatization?

04:43:32.100 Sure.

04:43:32.620 And saying gays are good, it would be like a form of de-stigmatizing that.

04:43:36.800 Sure.

04:43:37.180 Okay, so if that's the case, then you would want me to say gays are bad less.

04:43:41.920 Sure.

04:43:42.520 Okay, because it leads to less stigma.

04:43:45.680 Sure.

04:43:46.100 Then how would it not logically follow that by you making the claim of the impact, right, the impact and the message that you're not de-stigmatizing it?

04:43:53.800 I agree that I think largely women should be more precise with their language.

04:43:57.200 I'm not denying that.

04:43:57.940 They should instead say, we don't like the way we are treated by some men.

04:44:00.500 So then why won't you present this as being just as bad, even for the sake of stigmas, for social stigma's sake?

04:44:05.920 I didn't say it was for stigmas.

04:44:06.860 Well, fine, for stigma, yeah, sure.

04:44:08.180 But I think stigmas can lead to different levels of harm and outcome, right?

04:44:11.920 Just because two things are stigmatized equally.

04:44:13.760 Yeah, but the thing is, is like, I disagree, first off, with the framing that just because you say unliving, because unliving happens with one of these cases more than with the other, that because...

04:44:23.100 It's not good.

04:44:23.460 I don't hear it that much, but no.

04:44:24.780 Yeah, but even if that's the case, that doesn't actually mean it has less of a social impact, right?

04:44:31.040 Like, that doesn't actually follow, right?

04:44:32.820 Like, social impact or, like, what materially manifests in the world?

04:44:37.740 Both.

04:44:37.880 You know what I mean?

04:44:38.480 That would be social impact.

04:44:39.860 Sure.

04:44:40.220 Material manifestation in the world would be social impact.

04:44:43.340 Okay.

04:44:43.580 Yeah.

04:44:43.780 And if it does have bad consequences in that sense, that's why I've never been like that.

04:44:48.460 That's the best way to express your frustration.

04:44:50.700 Well, then, bro, then why make the equation, like, that, oh, it's just less harmful?

04:44:56.340 When, overall, you haven't even actually made a case, by the way, how it's less harmful, except for the metric of, because you correlate it with the stat that men will unalive women more than women will unalive men.

04:45:08.460 Yeah.

04:45:08.680 I'll even concede to the stat, but can you correlate how it is that these two statements are not just as impactful or how it is that when men say, you know, unalive all women, that somehow that actually is leading men to unaliving women?

04:45:23.980 I mean, I think largely because it contributes to a stigmatization where women are, so, like, if we talk about, for example, let's say, like, there's many cases of where the hatred of women, like, the hatred or, like, the disdain for women leads to women being killed.

04:45:40.300 That would be on both sides.

04:45:41.900 Do you think it's as, do you think it's as prevalent?

04:45:43.780 Like, I just don't, like, let's think of the stalker case.

04:45:45.460 But, again, you're backed on aliving.

04:45:46.940 You're backed on aliving.

04:45:47.800 Well, fine, because that's the case we're talking about.

04:45:49.600 If we're talking about, if we're talking about, Andrew, let me finish this.

04:45:52.060 Let me finish this.

04:45:52.600 If we're talking about, so, for example, let's say that a man and a woman are at a bar, a man is making advances towards the woman, the woman is declining the advances, she leaves, and he follows her home and kills her because of that.

04:46:05.540 Not good.

04:46:06.200 That's bad.

04:46:06.920 That is bad.

04:46:07.620 And do you think that's happening at a comparable rate for women towards men?

04:46:12.040 But how many times have I said, I would even concede that it's not comparable in the rate that they unalive each other?

04:46:18.520 It's just not good.

04:46:19.080 But I need you to tie in how if a man says unalive all women, that leads to more of that.

04:46:25.500 What's our evidence for that?

04:46:27.640 It's contributing to the hatred of women, and the hatred of women gets women killed.

04:46:31.980 Prove it.

04:46:33.040 Prove that that's contributing to the unalivement of these women.

04:46:37.460 You want me to prove that when people hate a certain group, that hatred can manifest in them killing people?

04:46:44.380 No.

04:46:44.760 What am I asking you to prove?

04:46:46.260 You're asking me to prove that there is a connection between people saying, I hate women or something like that, and women actually dying.

04:46:52.500 Right, that those statements have more of a social impact and are leading to these unalivements more than the social impact of the alternative statement from women of hate all men when it comes to materialistic impacts.

04:47:05.500 I do not, I am not sure that the husband, because you have to admit this, stranger death from women, men to women, is far less likely than when it comes to the dynamic of somebody who's familial.

04:47:19.200 Sure, that's happened in general, yeah.

04:47:20.480 Yeah, this is just the case, factually, right?

04:47:22.900 Do you think that it's like the message of, I hate women, or, you know, like I put out a tweet recently that said, launch all women into the sun, which was fucking hilarious.

04:47:32.580 Do you think that the type of man who was going to unalive in a domestic situation, his wife, that that was the thing that was going to send them over?

04:47:41.800 I'm not, it doesn't have to be the exact thing that sends them over.

04:47:44.300 Do you even think it really contributes to that?

04:47:46.360 No, I think it could contribute, absolutely.

04:47:47.280 It contributes to a culture where they don't view women as full human beings.

04:47:51.200 Then the same case would be made for the opposition statement from women when it comes to the social stigma that men are monsters, they're awful, they're horrible, they want to do bad things to you, they fucking, they want to do all, that adds to the stigma from men, right?

04:48:07.700 Or for men.

04:48:08.520 Okay.

04:48:08.840 Correct?

04:48:09.480 Sure.

04:48:09.800 Isn't that factually correct?

04:48:11.660 It can contribute to stigma.

04:48:13.580 I don't.

04:48:14.380 But how can you make the comparison and say that one is more impactful than the other?

04:48:18.600 Even if like we were to say, okay, there's like 200.

04:48:20.600 One leads to people, there's more violence.

04:48:22.400 Let's just say there's like 2,000 more deaths due to this.

04:48:26.120 But there's like.

04:48:26.520 It's not good, don't do it.

04:48:27.660 But hang on, but there's 80,000, but there's like 80,000 more men who enter into depression and this and that because women are distancing themselves from them based on these types of tweets.

04:48:37.920 No, no, no.

04:48:38.340 With that, hang on.

04:48:39.200 Why are women distancing themselves from men?

04:48:40.760 Let me finish.

04:48:41.900 So let's say for a second, there's like 2,000, let's just say, hypothetically, 2,000 more deaths which occur.

04:48:48.500 Sure.

04:48:48.680 Due to the men who put out like this type of like hateful, what you would consider hateful rhetoric, right?

04:48:55.540 And then on the woman's side, there's like 80,000 more men who enter into a state of depression because of these tweets.

04:49:02.840 Which one would you select for in your society?

04:49:05.720 Neither.

04:49:06.620 No, but if you had to choose one.

04:49:08.280 I would reject the hypothetical.

04:49:09.500 Yeah, but if you had to choose one, though.

04:49:10.760 But I can reject the hypothetical.

04:49:12.300 Based on what grounds?

04:49:13.380 I just did.

04:49:14.460 What grounds, though?

04:49:15.640 That I think it is.

04:49:16.640 What's invalid about the hypothetical?

04:49:18.180 Why can't we do both?

04:49:19.020 Because it's not within the confines of the hypothetical.

04:49:20.960 Well, then I think the hypothetical is...

04:49:21.940 What's the hypothetical?

04:49:23.120 I agree, but the hypothetical actually has to track realistic things.

04:49:25.560 It tracks fine.

04:49:26.600 What doesn't track?

04:49:28.000 I think we should do neither of them.

04:49:29.560 Yeah, I understand.

04:49:30.340 Oh, sorry.

04:49:30.600 It's a certain number of men, women who were killed, 2,000 women who were killed, and 80,000 men who go into a depression state.

04:49:36.740 Was that it?

04:49:37.320 Yeah, if it was the other side.

04:49:39.840 I don't...

04:49:40.500 I think that...

04:49:43.460 It's like if you had a society, there's nothing illogical about this hypothetical.

04:49:47.200 That you have no grounds to dismiss it whatsoever on a logical basis, it completely tracks.

04:49:51.980 Why can't we do both?

04:49:52.420 If you had to choose between two different societies, the one society, there was 2,000 additional deaths of women based on misogynistic rhetoric.

04:49:59.800 But based on misandrist rhetoric, there was 80,000 more depressed men.

04:50:04.600 Which society would you select for?

04:50:07.980 I don't know.

04:50:08.200 All else equal.

04:50:09.200 Which society?

04:50:09.880 I don't...

04:50:10.160 I think both are bad.

04:50:10.520 You don't fucking know.

04:50:11.240 No, I think both are bad.

04:50:12.340 And I'm not going to weigh the lives of women versus the depression of men.

04:50:14.460 Can you tell me why you rejected a hypothetical when there was nothing wrong with a hypothetical?

04:50:18.160 Because I do think it's not even...

04:50:20.740 It's a weird point you're trying to get at, which is that somehow we should weigh...

04:50:23.520 You're saying a weird point means nothing.

04:50:24.340 We should weigh that there's a certain amount of male depression that outweighs women who are being killed.

04:50:29.880 You're a utilitarian.

04:50:30.780 Of course, you weigh everything that way.

04:50:32.020 I'm not claiming utilitarianism for this debate.

04:50:33.040 Even if it is the case you're a harm reductionist, you would have to weigh it that way.

04:50:36.360 Fine.

04:50:36.880 Then we should do neither.

04:50:38.000 That's actually the utilitarian view.

04:50:39.380 Great.

04:50:40.080 Great.

04:50:40.540 I agree.

04:50:41.460 Okay.

04:50:41.680 We should do neither.

04:50:42.840 But if we had to choose between these two societies, Mr. Harm Reductionist, which one would you fucking choose?

04:50:52.140 I don't know, dude.

04:50:53.040 You don't know.

04:50:53.860 Okay.

04:50:55.000 No, I haven't...

04:50:55.460 You're just not going to answer the question.

04:50:56.860 I just haven't given thought as to whether or not I want 80,000...

04:50:58.580 No, you just won't answer the question.

04:51:01.080 Yes.

04:51:01.480 I'm rejecting the hypothetical.

04:51:02.540 Tell me what's wrong with the hypothetical.

04:51:03.960 What's wrong with the hypothetical is I don't think it's a legitimate choice to choose between.

04:51:07.240 This is the whole thing when, like, at their street...

04:51:09.400 It's a...

04:51:09.620 It's a...

04:51:10.160 Hold on.

04:51:10.780 There's the street debate.

04:51:11.060 You can't say the choice isn't legitimate in a hypothetical.

04:51:13.760 Hold on.

04:51:14.200 But these are the same as the street debates I see all the time where people are like,

04:51:17.280 would you rather have gay rights or the economy?

04:51:19.700 Yeah.

04:51:19.900 And it's like, that's a stupid hypothetical.

04:51:22.500 Because you can have both.

04:51:23.940 You don't need to choose between one or the other.

04:51:25.680 Here's the thing that's interesting.

04:51:26.500 And it's...

04:51:26.520 What it's trying to do, it's supposed to dichotomize them.

04:51:28.720 It's gay rights come at the expense or the economy comes at the expense of gay rights

04:51:32.700 or they have to be the other way.

04:51:34.220 It's designed to test logic because it could be possible that if you were to answer this

04:51:38.340 way on this particular question, that if you were to have logical consistency on a different

04:51:42.780 set of questions, they could run in parallel with how you answered this one.

04:51:46.880 Okay.

04:51:47.140 That makes sense, right?

04:51:48.860 Sure.

04:51:49.220 Or...

04:51:49.660 Yeah.

04:51:49.920 So, like, if I were to ask you a hypothetical, like...

04:51:52.120 I don't know, dude.

04:51:52.840 If you had to push the button between all men dying or all women dying, let's just say,

04:51:57.680 right?

04:51:58.100 Like, this is the hypothetical.

04:52:01.040 Now, you could say, well, that's extreme.

04:52:03.080 It would never happen this and that, right?

04:52:04.580 It's logically possible.

04:52:06.020 You can't reject it.

04:52:06.860 There's no contradiction.

04:52:07.880 You can't reject it as being logically possible.

04:52:10.060 Therefore, it's a possible...

04:52:12.120 Even if we just looked at, like, a multi-world theory, you could say it's still logically possible.

04:52:15.860 You could push one button or the other.

04:52:17.380 You can't reject it under any grounds.

04:52:19.220 Which one would you pick?

04:52:20.360 I'm not picking a button.

04:52:21.500 Which one would you pick?

04:52:22.420 No.

04:52:23.400 But what if it's the case that, based on that answer, I have a follow-up to test that logic

04:52:28.840 where it would be inconsistent based on how you answer that hypothetical?

04:52:32.240 Wouldn't that, then, the hypothetical be legitimate?

04:52:34.160 I have no basis for preferring whether all men die or all women die.

04:52:38.680 That's like, that's...

04:52:39.500 Okay, but you had to choose.

04:52:42.220 I wouldn't...

04:52:42.720 What's a hypothetical?

04:52:44.080 I don't...

04:52:45.060 I would...

04:52:45.400 You don't know what a hypothetical is?

04:52:46.280 I do know what a hypothetical is, Andrew.

04:52:47.300 What is it?

04:52:47.620 It is talking about a situation, I agree, to test some sort of consistency.

04:52:52.360 No, that's not all it is.

04:52:53.600 What else is it?

04:52:54.300 And it's supposed to...

04:52:55.680 It's supposed to test intuition.

04:52:57.600 It's supposed to test, like, your reasoning about something in a case and then apply that

04:53:01.260 reasoning to another case.

04:53:02.380 And if it's logically possible, does it help us with our logic to engage in these hypotheticals

04:53:06.980 so that we can test our worldview against things which seemingly are absurd, but can

04:53:11.080 often be applied in actuality to our worldview?

04:53:13.200 They can be, but I don't even know how to answer that question.

04:53:16.400 Why?

04:53:16.640 Because I don't...

04:53:17.040 You know how you answer it?

04:53:18.200 Which one you would push?

04:53:19.280 You want me to flip a coin?

04:53:20.600 I just wanted to know which one you would push.

04:53:22.160 Okay, heads are...

04:53:23.440 Heads are...

04:53:24.480 Heads are men, tails are women.

04:53:26.400 That's fair.

04:53:27.120 Okay, so if you say...

04:53:28.240 You want me to flip a coin?

04:53:28.300 You want me to flip it?

04:53:29.120 Flip it.

04:53:29.700 Okay, do you want me to...

04:53:30.480 Yeah, actually flip it.

04:53:31.580 Flip a coin.

04:53:32.700 Flip a coin.

04:53:33.320 And hang on, heads is men.

04:53:34.580 Tails.

04:53:35.480 Was that women or men?

04:53:36.700 Well, women.

04:53:37.940 Women?

04:53:38.360 So women are going in your hypothetical?

04:53:39.940 Sure.

04:53:40.240 Why not?

04:53:40.460 Okay, so you would flip a coin and then you would dust all the women.

04:53:43.540 I wouldn't.

04:53:43.900 Because they're both of equal...

04:53:44.580 Because they're both of equal value, right?

04:53:45.800 I wouldn't...

04:53:46.140 Okay, yeah, go.

04:53:47.080 Okay, and that's fair, right?

04:53:49.120 My whole point of demonstrating that was like, if there was something which was logically

04:53:53.300 consistent past that, that would equate to, well, wait a second, you would generally

04:53:59.900 make this choice, even if it was the coin flip choice, that still seems like the hypothetical

04:54:04.160 would be valid.

04:54:05.360 In this particular case, I asked you a valid hypothetical.

04:54:08.960 Do you have no grounds to reject it?

04:54:10.360 Can you answer the hypothetical I asked you?

04:54:12.100 How would you rather have 2,000 women die because of...

04:54:16.520 Yeah, 80,000 men who are in depression or 2,000 men who die?

04:54:21.240 Which?

04:54:21.700 I'll flip a coin again.

04:54:23.460 So you think they have equal societal impact.

04:54:25.780 So then why do you keep bringing up death?

04:54:28.200 Why do you keep bringing up death as the threshold breaker than...

04:54:31.280 Andrew, because I...

04:54:32.320 That was easy, by the way.

04:54:33.660 I love doing that to you.

04:54:34.780 Hold on.

04:54:35.340 No, I have a response.

04:54:36.640 Because the type of rhetoric that women are expressing, I do not think is the major or

04:54:43.800 even a large cause as to why men become so depressed.

04:54:48.300 So?

04:54:49.320 It doesn't...

04:54:50.120 So what?

04:54:50.700 Because...

04:54:51.300 So what?

04:54:52.260 Because you're saying that we have to choose that because if women express this, it's going

04:54:56.080 to lead to men being depressed.

04:54:57.120 Hypothetical shows, it's just this, that your version or view that if, even if it is the

04:55:03.580 case that all that counter rhetoric does is cause additional, like, mental distress for...

04:55:08.220 I'd probably choose the men.

04:55:09.480 It just causes, like, additional mental distress for men, but not the unalivement of them.

04:55:13.340 But for women, it does cause additional unalivement.

04:55:15.380 So I would choose the men.

04:55:16.420 Therefore, and on...

04:55:17.280 I would choose the men, then.

04:55:18.520 You would choose the men.

04:55:19.140 Men going into depression over women being killed.

04:55:21.260 Okay.

04:55:21.920 So now you're going to change your answer now because...

04:55:24.240 How?

04:55:24.560 No.

04:55:24.700 Because the hypothetical was valid?

04:55:26.140 Hold on.

04:55:26.360 No, if we're talking about specific...

04:55:28.000 Because it's a stupid...

04:55:28.440 Because the hypothetical is valid.

04:55:29.740 No.

04:55:29.960 That's why he had to...

04:55:30.580 He had to change it to be considered.

04:55:32.080 No.

04:55:32.180 Now you see why it was so valuable?

04:55:33.620 No.

04:55:34.040 It wasn't.

04:55:34.620 What did you gain...

04:55:35.640 Then why did you gain...

04:55:36.580 Because it's a stupid question.

04:55:38.740 That your threshold breaker, which is for the unalivement, it's unalivement, that's why

04:55:43.100 there's a threshold, that's why it's actually worse on this end, and yet your answer

04:55:46.620 did not match up with that in the hypothetical.

04:55:48.640 The second we were able to equalize death and just show that there was less death and more depression,

04:55:54.420 right?

04:55:54.660 You equalize towards what?

04:55:56.300 Flip a coin.

04:55:57.080 They're both equal to you.

04:55:58.420 So you can't say one is worse than the other when they're equalized to you inside of this

04:56:02.220 hypothetical.

04:56:02.840 It makes no sense, dude.

04:56:04.080 Okay.

04:56:05.080 How?

04:56:05.520 How does that make sense?

04:56:06.720 I don't know.

04:56:07.440 I...

04:56:07.720 Yeah.

04:56:08.060 I guess my answer to a hypothetical question as to whether or not we want 80,000 men being

04:56:13.060 depressed or 2,000 women dying.

04:56:15.320 Yeah.

04:56:15.660 Well, it can't be the death.

04:56:16.840 I didn't answer it perfectly.

04:56:17.480 In other words, the death itself is not really the threshold breaker.

04:56:21.960 So why do you keep bringing up the death as though it is?

04:56:25.440 Hold on.

04:56:25.820 But then here's the thing then.

04:56:27.080 When I was thinking of depression, are we thinking like these men are going to become

04:56:30.640 depressed and like they're going to end their own lives or just that they're going to be

04:56:34.760 depressed?

04:56:35.000 Who entailed that?

04:56:36.420 I'm asking you.

04:56:37.560 Because when I think of depression and while I hear this...

04:56:38.920 That's not entailed...

04:56:39.840 Well, some of them may.

04:56:42.040 Okay, fine.

04:56:42.860 Because they're depressed.

04:56:43.560 If most of them won't, then I would still choose the men over the women.

04:56:46.480 Unless if we think about it...

04:56:48.020 Okay.

04:56:48.140 Okay, fine.

04:56:48.780 So now you're changing your answer a second time?

04:56:50.800 Andrew, I'm changing my answer because it changes based on what happens because of

04:56:54.620 the depression.

04:56:55.200 Now let's think what happens.

04:56:55.820 What happens based on depression?

04:56:56.740 Hold on.

04:56:57.180 If men are depressed, what if they fall down more of a rabbit hole and end up unaliving

04:57:02.260 more women or unaliving more men?

04:57:04.720 Well, then you should probably...

04:57:05.800 There could be downstream consequences from that.

04:57:09.040 That would make it worse than just those 2,000 women.

04:57:12.960 So I don't know.

04:57:13.780 Destiny triangles, fucking finally.

04:57:15.900 So death, the fact that women get unalived at a higher rate, even if that were correlated

04:57:22.320 with the rhetoric, would not be the threshold breaker for you as far as the impact on society.

04:57:29.280 Triangles, bro.

04:57:30.280 There you go.

04:57:31.240 Triangles.

04:57:31.880 Okay, I don't know what that means.

04:57:33.060 It can't be.

04:57:33.820 It can't be the threshold breaker for you.

04:57:35.940 So why do you keep using that as though it's the thing which makes the delineation?

04:57:40.340 It's not the only thing, though.

04:57:41.780 Then what else?

04:57:43.240 I think the prevalence of the hatred towards women is the genuine hatred that leads to

04:57:48.640 not just outcomes of death, but other outcomes as well, as we were talking about.

04:57:54.580 Like, which ones are not happening to men?

04:57:58.940 Which ones are not happening to men?

04:57:59.840 Besides the death thing, which you keep claiming is the threshold breaker?

04:58:03.620 The death thing as well.

04:58:04.560 I'm also talking about when those statements are made, it contributes to a stigmatization

04:58:08.220 that women can't be in certain career fields.

04:58:10.260 Same as men.

04:58:10.580 Or that women can't...

04:58:11.480 No.

04:58:12.180 Yeah.

04:58:12.340 What rhetoric is saying that men can't be in, like, the sciences or something?

04:58:15.360 Well, the idea that, like, if men are a bunch of SA-ers, if there was career fields where

04:58:18.820 there was a lot of women, predominantly, like, nurses, teachers, things like that, they

04:58:21.920 would probably be less likely to gravitate towards that due to the fact that there's

04:58:25.620 now a social stigma against the fact that they can say...

04:58:27.620 Okay, so that's a bad social stigma, but I do think the other social...

04:58:30.680 Like, what are you talking about?

04:58:32.380 See what I'm saying?

04:58:33.320 But this isn't like a hill that I think is worth dying on.

04:58:36.340 Like, I just don't...

04:58:36.780 Then why do you keep dying on it by saying that the threat...

04:58:39.220 You could have just done this.

04:58:40.240 You could have been like, listen, Andrew, equally, across the board, any woman who says

04:58:46.080 all men should die, it has a massive impact on society.

04:58:49.400 Now, maybe I can't determine exactly how much...

04:58:51.620 All men should die, but that's a different...

04:58:53.400 Nor for all women should die.

04:58:54.860 I can't actually determine how much of an impact it has because it's not really determinable.

04:58:59.520 Both are fucking horrible.

04:59:01.220 They're bad.

04:59:01.660 But you didn't do that.

04:59:02.400 What you did is you said the one's worse than the other because it leads to the systemic

04:59:06.360 unalignment of women where that doesn't happen to men.

04:59:08.580 But then when we equalize those choices and we ask the question, is it about just unalignment

04:59:13.860 or material conditions changing in society, your answers flip-flop like you're a fucking...

04:59:18.460 Like you're on the floor having a seizure.

04:59:19.940 But it would come down to what would the consequences of a bunch of men being depressed be?

04:59:25.380 It would probably be more death.

04:59:27.500 That's what I'm saying.

04:59:28.640 It would be more death.

04:59:29.720 Let's just say that it wasn't death and they just, like, really had miserable lives.

04:59:35.340 Okay, then I would still probably choose the women not being killed by men over men being

04:59:40.720 depressed.

04:59:41.500 Like, I don't...

04:59:42.220 I would 100% do that and I think we should do everything we can to help men in that situation.

04:59:47.940 But materially in society, that would actually still be worse.

04:59:50.100 Okay, then if it's worse in terms of people dying, then yeah.

04:59:53.020 No, not even dying.

04:59:54.040 Just like materially in society, the gravitating effects of misery would probably actually be

04:59:59.740 worse.

05:00:00.080 It would lead to less productivity.

05:00:01.780 They may not die, but that doesn't mean they're going to have great lives.

05:00:04.980 Sure.

05:00:06.240 Just saying.

05:00:07.120 I think...

05:00:07.600 And my problem with this is it just...

05:00:10.000 It's still reinforcing this idea that, like, women dying, like, has to come at the expense

05:00:17.400 of men who are depressed.

05:00:18.700 No, it doesn't do that.

05:00:19.900 Then what's the point of the hypothetical, man?

05:00:22.200 The point is to demonstrate that you don't really believe that this threshold that you

05:00:26.740 keep moving to for why it's worse for men to make these statements than women is the

05:00:30.460 fact that it could lead to unaliving on one end.

05:00:32.420 However, have serious negative connotations on the other as well.

05:00:36.100 You just dismiss those, and so they are lesser than the unalivement, and that's what you

05:00:40.360 can't justify.

05:00:41.360 Sure.

05:00:41.780 Okay.

05:00:42.140 No one should say that they want the entirety of one sex to die.

05:00:45.600 I've actually literally said this before, Andrew.

05:00:48.560 No, but you think the impact's still worse on one than the other.

05:00:51.460 Let me explain it.

05:00:52.560 Because I've spoken out a lot against this type of biological essentialism.

05:00:57.240 There is a type of a perversion of feminism on the left that says that men are evil because

05:01:02.140 of their biology, because of their Y chromosome, because of something about them biological

05:01:06.700 makes them evil.

05:01:07.680 Yeah, I've heard this too, higher testosterone, things like this.

05:01:09.980 Yeah, so I think that is very bad.

05:01:12.180 Yeah, it's vile.

05:01:13.040 It's vile, but here's my problem.

05:01:15.340 I do think that's bad.

05:01:15.820 With your idea of, like, it's still more impactful when men do it versus women, you're still eliminating

05:01:24.160 the idea of your own worldview towards stigma.

05:01:26.600 You are actually removing stigma from the one over the other, and it just looks to me like

05:01:32.680 an inconsistent view, that that's not really what you're trying to do.

05:01:36.280 But as we go through this, it sure seems like you are.

05:01:40.080 Okay.

05:01:41.460 And maybe that's part of that, like, goddess worship shit.

05:01:44.060 I don't know.

05:01:44.460 Okay, we got a few chats, then maybe we'll get some closing statement here soon.

05:01:50.440 So, we got six-pack chad.

05:01:54.340 Six-pack chad donated $69.

05:01:57.640 Oliver, are you too dense to realize that your worldview infantilizes women?

05:02:03.020 You don't want adult women to engage in consensual relationships that you don't like.

05:02:08.700 Take TRT and start lifting broke.

05:02:11.440 Can I respond quickly to that?

05:02:12.660 Yeah, sure.

05:02:13.000 Okay, no, I don't think that it infantilizes women because I think women and men who are

05:02:18.240 18 years old should not be dating people who are insanely older than they are at 41.

05:02:23.500 So, this is not a—and I'm also not saying women should, like, be barred from doing it.

05:02:27.740 I think telling someone something is a bad decision that might lead to bad outcomes is different

05:02:33.580 than infantilizing them or prohibiting them from doing it altogether.

05:02:37.000 Yeah, but let's look in your earlier statement where you said that the impact of when older men date younger women

05:02:42.080 versus older women dating younger men is much worse.

05:02:45.460 Yeah, I do.

05:02:46.460 I do think it's worse.

05:02:47.340 Yeah.

05:02:47.360 So, like, you are infantilizing always women.

05:02:51.680 That's all you do, dude.

05:02:53.100 Oh, Jesus.

05:02:53.860 Okay.

05:02:54.020 All right, we have OneShotA17.

05:02:57.260 OneShotA17 donated $69.

05:03:00.700 Thank you, OneShot.

05:03:01.300 Now that Andrew is back, let's talk about what the pig snake weasel tried to imply about—

05:03:06.060 Oh, yeah, I saw that.

05:03:07.440 —while Andrew was out.

05:03:08.260 Really quick, we do have—I'll have you address that, but we have Rachel who has a similar point.

05:03:12.680 Oliver, do you think Andrew views me as intellectually inferior or a child because—well, because I submit to him?

05:03:19.480 Do you want to respond to Rachel really quick?

05:03:20.820 Then we'll do the soup chat.

05:03:21.620 I don't know what Andrew thinks, so we should ask Andrew.

05:03:23.580 Well, here's what Andrew says publicly.

05:03:26.180 I've always maintained that my wife is much more intelligent than I am, but she submits to me, which is factually true.

05:03:35.040 Okay.

05:03:35.180 And then to the soup chat that came up, it's imply about Jim Bob while Andrew was out, about the infant—

05:03:45.560 Yeah, why did you—

05:03:46.680 Can we have Oliver just restate it just for the audience?

05:03:49.660 Sure.

05:03:49.780 I think I'm not making the claim that necessarily this is bad behavior or is, like, PDF file behavior.

05:04:01.820 What I am saying is I think it is a bit suspicious, or we should look into it, if—as I talked, and this was what I was saying about my debate with Jim Bob, I was saying that he views women as children, as infants, as not capable of agency.

05:04:14.320 Or he kept using examples about it, look, if you're in a house and, you know, you're bossing the kids around, and then he would compare that to women.

05:04:20.960 So I'm like, okay, this is—he's viewing women as children.

05:04:23.720 I'm saying that there is a suspicious view if you view women in that way as infantilized or children, and at the same time, they're also the people you want to have sex with.

05:04:34.220 That's what I was saying.

05:04:34.380 What was the implication towards Jim Bob was that he was a PDF file?

05:04:38.420 That was not an implication that he is.

05:04:39.800 Stop lying to me, Oliver.

05:04:40.680 It's not.

05:04:41.460 I'm not calling him that.

05:04:42.220 Can we watch the clip?

05:04:43.440 Do you watch the clip?

05:04:44.300 I was not saying that he was.

05:04:45.860 What's the implication?

05:04:47.060 The implication was there could be potential problems with that type of worldview.

05:04:52.900 What are those problems?

05:04:54.940 That they view women as children.

05:04:57.380 So they are—

05:04:58.540 Attracted to—could be attracted to children.

05:05:01.400 So they are—

05:05:02.540 I'm not saying—

05:05:03.260 So they—if you're attracted to children, you're a—

05:05:05.940 Mm-hmm.

05:05:06.500 You're a—

05:05:07.720 You cannot fully be attracted to—you can have problematic tendencies and not actually either act upon them or fully even realize that.

05:05:16.220 Attracted to children and want to have intercourse with them, you're a what, Oliver?

05:05:19.780 Sure.

05:05:20.300 PDF file.

05:05:20.880 So you were implying that Jim Bob's a PDF file.

05:05:23.340 I'm not directly.

05:05:23.520 By your own logic.

05:05:24.460 No.

05:05:24.560 You just walked yourself through the logic live.

05:05:26.360 I walked myself—I'm not saying he definitively is.

05:05:29.640 I'm saying—

05:05:30.020 Oh, it just raises suspicion.

05:05:31.540 Correct.

05:05:32.060 I'm not making absolutist claims.

05:05:33.720 And what—

05:05:34.040 Okay, well, you know what?

05:05:35.100 And I'm not saying he did anything wrong.

05:05:36.620 I believe that, like, men who have their nails painted by women, their tendency for, you know, PDF file is way higher.

05:05:43.140 Okay.

05:05:43.280 Therefore, Oliver, I think that you are akin to a PDF—

05:05:46.460 Okay.

05:05:46.760 You know, I'm not saying that, though.

05:05:48.260 What I'm saying is we should just be suspicious of you being a PDF file, Oliver.

05:05:52.440 That's fine.

05:05:52.780 You can be suspicious of me.

05:05:53.680 We should be suspicious.

05:05:54.760 You should have your hard drive checked.

05:05:55.860 That's all I'm saying.

05:05:56.440 Okay.

05:05:56.800 Fine.

05:05:57.080 The FBI should show up and check your hard drive, bro.

05:05:59.240 That's all I'm saying.

05:06:00.540 All right.

05:06:00.720 Why would you disparage, like—

05:06:02.280 Do you realize, too, that Jim Bob, he has a big family?

05:06:05.880 He has a wife.

05:06:06.800 But they're trying to disparage him.

05:06:07.280 Hang on.

05:06:07.460 He has kids at home.

05:06:08.880 He has, like—he's a very good, very kind man who's raising—hang on.

05:06:13.520 Shut up.

05:06:14.040 You fucking haven't raised a single kid in your life.

05:06:16.160 You have no idea what that's like.

05:06:17.880 This guy is doing the fucking absolute best that he can.

05:06:20.760 Why would you insinuate that he's a PDF?

05:06:23.240 Why would you do that to a man who has kids in his home, dude?

05:06:26.100 Andrew, I'm not—if I'm—do you think we should follow the path of an argument, even

05:06:32.680 if it might offend someone?

05:06:32.980 That wasn't what your clip did.

05:06:34.320 Even if it might offend someone?

05:06:35.500 Your clip was trying to demonstrate—or trying to show—because you left out critical context

05:06:39.820 of what Jim Bob said, too.

05:06:41.260 You left out—and you left it out on purpose.

05:06:43.120 I was not trying to leave it out on purpose.

05:06:44.260 Because you are a clip chimp.

05:06:44.980 No.

05:06:45.160 And the thing is, you left it out on—and, dude, we'll demonstrate.

05:06:47.720 After this debate is done, you got blown out so bad here.

05:06:50.240 You're going to go and make all sorts of little clips, and then we're going to wreck all

05:06:53.940 of them.

05:06:54.300 It's going to be great.

05:06:54.980 By showing just critical context, you left out critical context there because you wanted

05:06:59.960 him to look bad and look like a PDF file, and he's a man who has children at home.

05:07:04.220 I don't want that to be the case.

05:07:06.180 Then make a fucking revision to that, at least.

05:07:08.380 I don't want that.

05:07:10.560 Can you at least make a revision to that so that you're—

05:07:12.720 What's the revision?

05:07:13.300 That you're not trying to make fucking—

05:07:14.800 No, I'm not.

05:07:15.220 Or at least add critical context?

05:07:16.760 No, critical context, sure.

05:07:17.780 I already gave the context.

05:07:19.420 You don't—okay, let's put—when I said—

05:07:20.980 Do you think Jim Bob is a PDF file, dude?

05:07:23.160 No, I don't.

05:07:23.800 Then don't do that to people, bro.

05:07:26.020 No, I don't.

05:07:26.760 I don't.

05:07:27.440 I don't.

05:07:28.720 Okay.

05:07:29.040 Don't do that to people.

05:07:30.060 I wouldn't do it to you.

05:07:30.560 Listen, I wouldn't do it to you.

05:07:31.800 I'm not trying to slander him.

05:07:33.800 I'm not at all trying to—and I'm not insinuating anything of actual behavior.

05:07:37.900 Can you agree that there can be behavioral patterns of certain ideologies that could lend themselves to a type of thinking, even if it's not—that's all I'm saying.

05:07:48.960 Oliver, let me make a concession, if you will.

05:07:50.940 Okay.

05:07:51.440 Here's the concession I'll make.

05:07:52.580 Okay.

05:07:52.800 I'll make this concession, that it is the case that you can follow patterns of behavior to come out with, like, some kind of basic ideas about the outcomes of behavior.

05:08:01.960 Okay.

05:08:02.380 That's true.

05:08:03.060 And you can do that with arguments that's even true, too.

05:08:05.300 Sure.

05:08:05.500 But can you admit to me that, especially on YouTube and various platforms like this, when you sensationalize by leaving out critical context in order to lead the viewer to a conclusion that that is far more common than people following legitimate argument chains to figure out patterns, do you agree with me that that's far more common?

05:08:24.900 It can be more common, yes.

05:08:26.120 Yes.

05:08:26.520 And so the thing is, like, why should I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're trying to disparage one of my best friends who has done nothing ever to you?

05:08:35.120 Correct.

05:08:35.440 It's the worst thing you could call a man, and the worst thing you can insinuate about him.

05:08:39.120 Okay.

05:08:39.500 I was not meaning to insinuate that it is.

05:08:41.400 Then make a revision, dude.

05:08:42.200 It was not.

05:08:42.780 I'm not talking about it being unique.

05:08:44.060 I call him an idiot.

05:08:44.560 Call him a retardant.

05:08:45.180 Do all of that.

05:08:46.080 Okay.

05:08:46.420 I am not claiming that he is unique in that.

05:08:49.400 What was the clip?

05:08:50.260 Can you send us the clip?

05:08:51.220 Send the clip.

05:08:52.040 It's bad.

05:08:53.080 It's not great, Oliver.

05:08:54.360 It's not great.

05:08:55.140 What was, was there, like, also?

05:08:58.240 You have to watch it, Brian.

05:09:00.860 It's pretty bad.

05:09:02.980 Do you know what the.

05:09:03.500 He's like, no, it's not.

05:09:04.260 It's no big deal.

05:09:04.820 Do you know what, like, the, the, like.

05:09:07.420 That channel sent it in or the crucible is pretty well.

05:09:10.780 Is it on the Instagram?

05:09:12.600 Because I didn't look at the.

05:09:14.000 I looked at, like, two of the clips you made.

05:09:17.100 Do you know what, like, the little title card is?

05:09:20.260 There's, like, these dudes are allergic to nuance.

05:09:22.680 Do you know what the title card is?

05:09:26.460 Of what he, of, like, his.

05:09:28.160 Is where Andrew's suggesting that you implied that Jim Bob was a PDF file.

05:09:33.720 What's the title card?

05:09:35.120 Wait, I didn't post that.

05:09:37.160 I, I, well, wait.

05:09:38.020 I posted.

05:09:38.880 Well, he's saying you made a clip about it.

05:09:40.720 No, I made a clip of my closing statement in that debate.

05:09:43.100 Where Jim Bob.

05:09:44.140 So it's the closing statement one.

05:09:45.360 Yeah, nod his head.

05:09:46.840 Is it in the five-minute highlight reel that you did?

05:09:49.740 It's at the very, it's at the very end of that.

05:09:51.440 Is it at the.

05:09:52.140 I think.

05:09:53.020 Is it your closing statement?

05:09:54.660 Yeah, my closing statement.

05:09:56.600 Is it the one society is better when we trust women?

05:09:59.200 Yeah.

05:10:00.780 Okay.

05:10:01.580 I will send that.

05:10:03.020 We'll see if we can pull that up.

05:10:04.620 Andrew, see, we can react to it.

05:10:06.740 While we're doing that, I'm going to read.

05:10:08.700 We have soup chats that came in.

05:10:10.900 I'll read those.

05:10:12.380 Daniel Stein, back again.

05:10:14.180 He's back from time out because.

05:10:17.840 Oh, you got it.

05:10:18.440 You got it right.

05:10:19.160 Thank you, Daniel Stein, all the way in Australia.

05:10:21.080 Appreciate it, man.

05:10:21.760 So bending over for women is more complex than voting on matters of war and presidents

05:10:27.120 that affect families.

05:10:28.600 But yet spreading her legs is more complex.

05:10:31.440 LOL.

05:10:31.820 Andrew, you hard park.

05:10:34.040 Here you go.

05:10:34.800 Women, women, women, women.

05:10:36.300 Lo, lo, lo, lo, lo, lo, lo, lo.

05:10:37.960 Okay.

05:10:38.420 He wasn't here for that one.

05:10:39.760 But thank you, Daniel Stein.

05:10:42.520 Dendritic dialectic.

05:10:44.240 Oliver creates race-based subgroups to argue white people can't say they hate black people

05:10:49.220 despite higher per capita attacks.

05:10:51.060 But doesn't do the same for sex by his logic.

05:10:54.780 Or by his logic, only women who go to bars can say they hate men due to higher assault risk.

05:10:59.500 Do you want to respond to that?

05:11:01.220 No.

05:11:03.560 Okay.

05:11:04.380 All right.

05:11:05.500 Daniel Stein, thank you for those.

05:11:07.480 Appreciate it.

05:11:07.840 $69 TTS.

05:11:08.840 Get them in.

05:11:09.340 Final call if you want to get one in here before we get this wrapped up here pretty soon.

05:11:13.840 We have also Desert Joe.

05:11:18.060 Appreciate it, Desert Joe.

05:11:19.220 Desert Joe donated $69.

05:11:22.640 Feminism, women are equal to men.

05:11:25.500 Women, kill all men.

05:11:27.660 Gets a pass because they're inferior.

05:11:30.080 Men, kill all women.

05:11:32.180 Straight to jail because man bad.

05:11:34.520 Someone, please, make it make sense.

05:11:36.900 Well, I mean, he's going to insinuate that basically complete strangers he lost a debate to are PDF files.

05:11:45.700 Like, let me make it like an appeal to your humanity then.

05:11:49.340 Let me try that.

05:11:50.300 I'll make an appeal to your humanity.

05:11:51.700 We have the clip, by the way, if you want to.

05:11:53.300 Play it.

05:11:54.240 Before you want to make your point?

05:11:55.360 Yeah.

05:11:55.480 This is my Instagram post.

05:11:56.600 This is not the clip.

05:11:57.300 Are you talking about tonight, what I said?

05:11:58.980 Yeah.

05:11:59.560 Yeah.

05:12:02.120 Wait.

05:12:02.840 And the clip.

05:12:03.420 Play the clip, too.

05:12:04.340 Okay.

05:12:05.360 Here.

05:12:06.080 Mary, do you have that pulled up?

05:12:09.640 There might be another way to do it.

05:12:12.000 Yeah, go ahead and pull it up.

05:12:18.840 All right.

05:12:19.660 And Oliver, can you confirm if this is the clip?

05:12:23.040 Yeah.

05:12:23.560 Closing statement.

05:12:24.420 All right.

05:12:24.640 So you're going to have to.

05:12:26.460 Instagram's fucking stupid for playing videos on desktop.

05:12:30.080 You're going to have to hit the audio button at the bottom.

05:12:32.460 So scroll down on the page.

05:12:35.060 See how it's muted.

05:12:36.220 So hit that.

05:12:37.120 Scroll back up.

05:12:38.920 Make control mouse wheel.

05:12:40.920 Zoom.

05:12:41.040 I had a prepared closing statement.

05:12:42.820 Zoom it out a little bit.

05:12:45.020 And we're going to have to lower the volume, probably put it to 70 at the very top there.

05:12:50.080 Okay.

05:12:51.220 He does a better job than the last two guys.

05:12:53.420 Yeah.

05:12:54.040 Yeah.

05:12:54.680 Yeah.

05:12:55.220 Let's try 70.

05:12:56.360 All right.

05:12:56.740 Go ahead and play it.

05:12:57.820 But since this really didn't go according to any sort of a guideline that I thought,

05:13:03.560 I'll just kind of say my final thoughts here.

05:13:05.700 I think there still is a massive is ought claim that is being made.

05:13:12.940 Just click on it.

05:13:14.280 Put it in the video tab.

05:13:15.900 We got to have it on.

05:13:16.860 You can say until you're blue in the face that this is how society is.

05:13:22.640 This is how it fundamentally will be if we're left to our own devices.

05:13:25.940 But I think one of the beautiful things about humans is that we have the capacity for reason

05:13:29.980 and we have the capacity to better our society against our biological impulses.

05:13:36.220 And I think that that is something that feminism advocates.

05:13:40.080 Feminism does not say that denies the difference between men and women, denies that men are on average stronger than women.

05:13:47.160 It says to men, look, you do have this power.

05:13:50.000 You are stronger.

05:13:51.880 You ought to use it in such a way that does not hurt individuals.

05:13:56.180 And there's an element of paternalism here.

05:13:58.580 I mean, you heard Jim Bob a lot compare treating women to treating children.

05:14:03.000 And, you know, I think it's a problem is these people fundamentally, and he's nodding right now, view women as infants.

05:14:08.440 View women as infantilized.

05:14:10.280 And I think that that is why feminism is so necessary and continue to fight against these ideas where, you know,

05:14:17.380 these people do not view women as, you know, rational human beings.

05:14:21.020 I mean, we had this whole conversation surrounding intellect.

05:14:23.140 And I think that, you know, it's really unfortunate that this is the type of ideas that are becoming more and more prevalent.

05:14:29.580 And I think that as long as these ideas are continuing to be spread, it only proves the further need for feminism.

05:14:36.180 I really wasn't able to get into a lot of the empirics of the good things of feminism.

05:14:39.920 But there have been many advancements and benefits since the arrival of feminism and can be directly attributed to it.

05:14:48.300 Society works better when men and women work alongside each other.

05:14:51.560 Is there a point where he does?

05:14:53.480 He actually does circle back to it, but the clip is kind of long.

05:14:57.180 Do you remember where the part is where you circle back to that?

05:15:00.760 Within this conversation today?

05:15:03.740 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:15:04.220 But you even did it in the clip.

05:15:05.400 No, but in the clip itself.

05:15:08.100 View women, I said, view women as children.

05:15:10.940 Yeah, you view women as children.

05:15:12.820 Yeah.

05:15:13.020 The idea there that he views women as children, but he has sex with women, is implying what?

05:15:21.400 Dude, I...

05:15:22.700 What's the implication, bro?

05:15:23.900 I'm not saying there wasn't the implication there.

05:15:26.020 I'm not saying he engaged in any sort of behavior.

05:15:28.800 I don't know what you want from me, Andrew.

05:15:30.460 I want you to just make it very crystal clear, right, that your stupid-ass idea...

05:15:37.440 When we say infantilizing, when I say you infantilize women, that is the case that I am saying that you're kind of treating them like they are children.

05:15:45.420 But you went one step further.

05:15:47.080 You said that he treats them as though they're infants.

05:15:49.760 You're making the inference that he's attracted to women who are fucking infants.

05:15:54.700 You're making the case that he's a PDF.

05:15:56.200 No, no, no.

05:15:56.660 I was not making it that...

05:15:58.040 Using the word infant was the wrong word there.

05:16:00.900 I wanted to say children.

05:16:01.860 I wanted to say infantilized.

05:16:03.360 Okay?

05:16:03.820 So in the same context I am.

05:16:05.980 Of what?

05:16:06.480 Where I say, like, when we say, like, you're infantilizing them, it means that you're, like, not treating them like an adult.

05:16:12.380 Not treating them like an adult.

05:16:13.120 But I do think when we're talking about viewing them as children, he brought up multiple examples of where he's like, look, okay, if you're in a house and you've got to make decisions and, you know, the kids are walking around with their signs and saying they want something.

05:16:24.080 And then you're like, you know, all right, you really put your foot down.

05:16:26.680 The analogy there is comparing women to children.

05:16:30.640 Yeah, but listen, the way that you present it, though, you also add elements like you did in today's conversation where there's, like, an attraction element there.

05:16:40.220 And you've already conceded that that is the case.

05:16:42.580 Isn't the inference there that you're trying to give to the audience that these guys are PDFs?

05:16:47.240 I'm saying I'm not making claims about individuals, and I understand if my language was partially reckless.

05:16:55.800 Okay.

05:16:56.140 That's what I'm trying to say.

05:16:57.040 And you know what, I'll take the concession there in very good faith and say, fine.

05:17:01.740 If it is the case, you're going to retract that and saying it's reckless, and what you actually meant is just, like, you're not treating them on par with, like, equality or this or that.

05:17:10.460 That's fair.

05:17:11.420 But you have to remember that when you fucking, when you clip chimp, as the old saying goes, people aren't getting context well, are they?

05:17:19.640 They're not getting great context.

05:17:21.480 In that clip?

05:17:21.920 Even in that clip.

05:17:23.060 Okay.

05:17:23.400 They didn't have, like, the previous context of your conversation back and forth.

05:17:26.580 I mean, that's kind of the...

05:17:27.220 Only your characterization of it.

05:17:28.560 I mean, that's what the clips are.

05:17:30.200 That's what the clips that you post on this channel are.

05:17:32.200 I don't post any clips on this channel.

05:17:33.540 I'm not saying you.

05:17:33.840 That's what clips are.

05:17:35.700 The clips that I post are usually 10 plus minutes.

05:17:37.900 Okay.

05:17:38.260 Sure.

05:17:38.420 Why?

05:17:39.520 Fine.

05:17:39.820 They're full, long-form debates.

05:17:40.820 Because I want to give fucking...

05:17:42.040 Yeah.

05:17:42.220 They're not even long-form debates, but I want to give context.

05:17:44.700 It's critical.

05:17:45.420 And that's why when I post a clip, I link back to the original video and, like, watch the whole video.

05:17:50.320 Here's a clip from it.

05:17:51.260 Well, just watch in the future.

05:17:53.060 I understand.

05:17:53.320 Because you don't want to make these horrible inferences about family men.

05:17:56.000 Agreed.

05:17:56.400 I was not trying to do that.

05:17:57.720 And to Jim Bob, look, I apologize.

05:18:00.620 All right.

05:18:00.800 Okay?

05:18:01.040 I was not at all trying to insinuate that you engage in any behavior adjacent to that.

05:18:06.180 You know what would make me feel great about all of this?

05:18:08.280 Mm-hmm.

05:18:08.600 If you'd apologize again to Jim Bob.

05:18:10.480 I just did.

05:18:10.920 I said, I'm sorry.

05:18:11.620 Yeah, there you go.

05:18:12.540 All right.

05:18:12.860 Yeah, I'm sorry.

05:18:13.520 I did not mean...

05:18:14.420 I was making a critique of the ideology and where it could potentially lead, not necessarily

05:18:20.920 that you engage in that behavior whatsoever at all.

05:18:24.380 That's fair.

05:18:24.760 That's all episode.

05:18:26.060 All right.

05:18:26.080 A couple chats here.

05:18:28.160 Oh, audio.

05:18:29.040 Boost it up, please.

05:18:29.580 Swomee underscore Boyka donated $69.

05:18:33.460 Called my wife.

05:18:35.020 I said, make me a sandwich, women, and bend over.

05:18:38.060 Her response, amen.

05:18:39.840 She is three years older than me.

05:18:42.320 Work hard, be genuine, and lead, and women thrive.

05:18:45.580 Feminism destroys society.

05:18:47.500 Cheers.

05:18:48.160 Mm-hmm.

05:18:49.220 All right.

05:18:50.260 Boyka, thank you very much for the TTS.

05:18:52.520 We have three more coming in.

05:18:55.500 Member man donated $69.

05:18:58.820 Oliver, if you weren't intending on slandering Jim Bob, you slandered him incidentally.

05:19:04.200 I would say that's worse because you aren't even aware of when you drag people for no reason.

05:19:10.060 Rethink everything.

05:19:11.800 So, yeah, I mean, I couldn't...

05:19:13.680 I don't think, in retrospect, with what Oliver says now, where he's like, look, I'm sorry,

05:19:20.380 Jim Bob, if that was the case.

05:19:21.400 I wasn't trying to do that.

05:19:22.500 But I think that that's as fair of a concession as we could ever get on that particular point.

05:19:28.460 Like a fair one.

05:19:30.200 Also, I don't know if it's a different clip because I'm pretty sure I watched the closing statement clip.

05:19:35.180 There was another one, too.

05:19:36.600 But I don't remember where it was.

05:19:38.220 And I don't think I saw it in the closing statement.

05:19:40.300 Opening statement?

05:19:41.280 No, the closing statement.

05:19:42.540 I don't think...

05:19:43.060 I watched the clip.

05:19:44.420 Well, I read the subtitles to it because that clip that we were watching continued.

05:19:48.780 Mm-hmm.

05:19:49.420 I don't think in that specific...

05:19:51.520 I don't know.

05:19:52.500 I don't know the clip that's being referenced.

05:19:54.000 Maybe it's a different one.

05:19:54.980 It's just a closing statement clip?

05:19:57.080 No, there was another one, too.

05:19:58.360 Maybe there was another one.

05:19:59.340 But while, in any case, while Andrew was gone, you did say, it seemed quite definitive,

05:20:05.780 that you were saying Jim Bob or other men view women as...

05:20:10.520 You allege that they view women as infantile and that they're also attracted to adult women,

05:20:18.020 but they view them as infantile.

05:20:19.580 Well, ergo, there's a suspicion of PDF philia, you know?

05:20:24.360 There's a suspicion of...

05:20:26.320 I'm not claiming that anyone is engaging in any behavior or doing anything that is illegal

05:20:29.920 or doing anything to children.

05:20:31.480 I'm saying that they're valuing traits in women that can be present in children.

05:20:36.920 Yeah, but so do you.

05:20:37.520 And that can be suspicious.

05:20:38.840 Yeah, but so do you.

05:20:39.640 What do you mean?

05:20:40.180 Like inquisitiveness.

05:20:41.800 That's not exclusive to children.

05:20:44.360 Wait a second.

05:20:45.820 When you describe the traits of children, give me a single trait that you would describe

05:20:49.260 in a child that you would never associate with a man or a woman.

05:20:52.020 Never associate with a man or a woman?

05:20:53.480 Yeah.

05:20:53.980 Kind of blank slate?

05:20:55.620 What?

05:20:56.420 Like not entirely impressionable?

05:20:58.540 You would associate that with plenty of men and women.

05:21:00.800 What do you mean?

05:21:01.320 I don't think so.

05:21:02.200 I mean, I think everyone has their life experience and everyone is not...

05:21:04.880 Okay, blank slate's not even a trait.

05:21:07.460 That means there's a lack of traits.

05:21:08.820 It's like, what would the trait even be?

05:21:10.900 When you think of like childlike, you think of innocence.

05:21:14.240 You think of like the idea of like exuberance.

05:21:20.640 You need to lead them.

05:21:21.320 You think of high energy.

05:21:22.880 You think of things like that.

05:21:23.500 You need to teach them things.

05:21:24.100 You need to mold them in your image.

05:21:25.320 Yeah, but you.

05:21:25.960 There's probably tons of childlike things that, hang on, that you would say that men

05:21:31.700 and women both are attracted to has nothing at all to do with being attracted to children.

05:21:37.020 Okay.

05:21:37.420 What I was talking about is molding...

05:21:38.540 Is that not the case?

05:21:39.900 Yes, a lot of those other traits.

05:21:41.140 That's not what I'm saying.

05:21:41.540 I'm saying wanting to mold someone in your image or having them to like adhere to everything

05:21:46.880 you're saying and have this level of power over someone can be akin to a parent-child

05:21:52.160 relationship.

05:21:52.720 Have you ever heard...

05:21:53.320 That's all I'm saying.

05:21:54.040 Have you ever heard of the term fixer-upper?

05:21:56.780 Sure.

05:21:57.360 Okay.

05:21:57.740 And women say this a lot, right?

05:21:59.240 Like I really like him, but there's like problems in this.

05:22:02.100 Yeah, it's weird.

05:22:02.200 Are they working on that man to like mold him into the thing that she wants a little

05:22:07.220 bit more?

05:22:08.260 Sure.

05:22:08.440 Is that what a fixer-upper means?

05:22:10.580 Could be, yeah.

05:22:11.400 So is that grooming?

05:22:13.400 It could be.

05:22:14.600 But is it?

05:22:15.180 I'm not sure.

05:22:16.860 If it's done, yeah, it could be.

05:22:19.260 It could, a hundred percent could be.

05:22:20.420 I mean, if...

05:22:20.980 Well, then women are fucking grooming all the time because they're constantly trying to

05:22:24.600 mold behavior.

05:22:25.080 If you're trying to take, if you're trying to take advantage of someone and kind of

05:22:27.500 make them into the verge, like your own person and strip them of their individuality.

05:22:31.280 I would argue all relationships are this way.

05:22:33.040 Okay, fine.

05:22:34.220 I just don't...

05:22:35.120 Don't you do that?

05:22:35.920 Like, honestly, don't you do this to yourself?

05:22:37.900 Like, if there's habits or annoyances or various issues you have with your, like, significant

05:22:44.180 other or, you know, woman you're dating or whatever, that you'll say things in order

05:22:49.740 to get them to like break whatever these habits are or these behaviors that you find aren't

05:22:53.880 tailored to you?

05:22:55.380 I would have a conversation with them.

05:22:57.440 I wouldn't slightly choose my...

05:22:59.380 And the point of the conversation is what?

05:23:00.840 Is to have a mutual understanding and dialogue where I'm not...

05:23:03.940 So that they change.

05:23:04.860 Wait a second.

05:23:05.540 But that's different than telling them what to do.

05:23:07.660 You need to do this because I have the authority and this is how it's going to go.

05:23:11.280 Well, who cares if it's just a boundary?

05:23:12.240 If you're just like, look, one of the behaviors that I want is like, when I tell you I don't want

05:23:17.680 you to do this behavior, you don't.

05:23:19.660 That is still...

05:23:20.380 It's the same exact thing.

05:23:21.320 You're just molding them to whatever the behavioral standards are that you like.

05:23:24.720 Okay.

05:23:25.420 Is that not the case?

05:23:26.780 I still think there is a distinction there, but I'm not...

05:23:29.940 Look, frankly, look, we can move along from this topic.

05:23:33.300 I'm sorry for making an insinuation.

05:23:35.820 Okay?

05:23:36.160 I'm not trying to slander anyone.

05:23:38.100 I was trying to make an internal critique.

05:23:39.560 That's fair.

05:23:39.800 That's fair.

05:23:40.040 That was all.

05:23:40.720 All right.

05:23:41.060 So...

05:23:41.320 We have two more chats, then we'll do closing statements.

05:23:44.200 Okay.

05:23:44.640 Jason Castle donated $69.

05:23:47.120 Thank you, Jason.

05:23:47.700 What you did to Jim Bob is what a spiteful woman does when she wants to ruin the reputation

05:23:54.140 of an ex.

05:23:55.300 You lost the debate, so you were spiteful.

05:23:58.360 Andrew is too nice.

05:23:59.740 I'd punch you.

05:24:00.760 I was not trying to spite anyone.

05:24:02.820 I'm not trying to slander him at all.

05:24:05.060 I was using the example that was in front of me because he was the one who I debated.

05:24:09.260 I have nothing against the guy, personally.

05:24:11.640 By the way, Jason, just to be fair, it's like Mr. Cassell.

05:24:15.660 I'm pretty confident that I said something that might have irked him one night, and he

05:24:19.260 threatened to punch me.

05:24:20.600 And I might have even, like, maybe had it coming.

05:24:23.820 Sure.

05:24:24.280 Yeah.

05:24:25.280 All right.

05:24:25.620 He's that way.

05:24:26.560 Fucking Jason.

05:24:27.440 You donated $69.

05:24:29.200 Thank you.

05:24:30.060 When did Oliver begin his testosterone-lowering regimen?

05:24:34.040 Andrew, keep drinking coffee and beer.

05:24:37.020 Miss you on regular whatever podcasts.

05:24:39.240 Well, we've had a lot going on.

05:24:41.040 It hasn't been, just so that you guys know, from a lack of Brian asking me to come on,

05:24:47.900 he's asked me to come on tons.

05:24:50.520 We've had some differences in schedule, but there's going to be, like I'm here right now,

05:24:55.560 doing as much whatever content as possible.

05:24:58.760 I always have loved being on whatever, and I probably always will.

05:25:02.820 Rock and roll.

05:25:03.780 Rock and roll.

05:25:04.900 All right.

05:25:05.540 Let's do this.

05:25:07.400 Why don't we do closing statements?

05:25:11.040 So I believe we have Oliver going first with your closing statement, and then Andrew,

05:25:17.060 you will.

05:25:17.900 No, it'd be the opposite.

05:25:18.960 I open.

05:25:20.120 Well, no.

05:25:20.920 If you open second, I close last.

05:25:23.080 That's correct.

05:25:24.480 And I did.

05:25:25.040 Did I open first or did you?

05:25:26.360 You opened first.

05:25:27.060 Okay.

05:25:27.420 You opened first.

05:25:27.940 But isn't it?

05:25:29.020 No.

05:25:29.580 You open first.

05:25:30.320 You want to give him the last word if I open first.

05:25:32.500 Yeah.

05:25:34.240 But isn't it like you go first for the open, and then you go second for the close?

05:25:41.900 No, because you don't get the first and last word.

05:25:43.220 No.

05:25:43.720 You get the first word or the last word.

05:25:45.120 Well, so how it works is this.

05:25:47.240 If you open, right?

05:25:49.060 Amateur hour.

05:25:49.920 If you're the one who opens up and you are the first opener, then whoever's the second

05:25:55.720 opener closes last.

05:25:58.000 Okay.

05:25:58.440 Yeah.

05:25:58.680 That's fine.

05:25:59.360 Yeah.

05:25:59.680 So whoever's the second opener closes last.

05:26:02.900 That way, and it just has to do with like who's in the stronger position.

05:26:07.760 Sure.

05:26:08.420 Okay.

05:26:09.320 Oh, no.

05:26:09.680 I'm sorry.

05:26:10.060 No.

05:26:10.580 I fucked that up, too.

05:26:11.660 Fuck.

05:26:11.920 I fucked that up, too.

05:26:13.640 First opener, last word.

05:26:16.620 That's how it works.

05:26:17.640 First opener.

05:26:18.240 So who had the first opener?

05:26:19.320 Oh, so you had the first.

05:26:20.140 Yeah.

05:26:20.420 So really?

05:26:20.640 Then you get the last word.

05:26:21.920 Oh.

05:26:22.300 I get the last word?

05:26:22.740 Wait.

05:26:22.920 No, you get the last word.

05:26:24.280 Who's the first opener?

05:26:25.060 Oh, wait.

05:26:25.380 You're saying first opener.

05:26:26.900 Last word.

05:26:28.100 Well, wait.

05:26:28.600 But then that would be me.

05:26:29.000 No, so then if you get the last word.

05:26:30.560 Do you get the first and last word, Andrew?

05:26:31.480 You were the first opener, so you would go second in your clothes.

05:26:34.760 If the person, if the person, oh, hang on.

05:26:37.400 All right.

05:26:37.640 We're debating now.

05:26:38.600 Hang on.

05:26:39.400 Let me make sure I got this right, but I think I do.

05:26:41.000 You went first.

05:26:41.720 Yes.

05:26:41.940 If you open first, you're in a worse position than the guy who responds to the opener, and

05:26:47.220 that's why you get the last word.

05:26:49.340 I think that's generally how it's done.

05:26:50.820 So you get the first and last word?

05:26:53.420 No.

05:26:53.860 You're at a disadvantage if you get the first word, but you're at an advantage with the

05:26:57.760 last word.

05:26:59.440 I don't know, dude.

05:27:00.060 Whatever.

05:27:00.200 But if it is the case that you would prefer that I go first, I'm happy to do it.

05:27:05.020 I don't really have a strong preference.

05:27:06.660 Okay.

05:27:06.860 Let's just do this.

05:27:07.340 I'll just go first.

05:27:08.180 No, let's do this.

05:27:09.140 Oliver, you go first with your closing, then just, Andrew, you go.

05:27:13.320 I could also be being stupid here, because maybe I am.

05:27:16.760 Maybe I'm just being dumb.

05:27:17.360 Do you want to go first, Andrew?

05:27:18.640 I'll just go first.

05:27:19.400 You go second.

05:27:20.100 All right.

05:27:20.360 Okay.

05:27:21.140 That sounds right to me.

05:27:23.280 Okay.

05:27:25.000 So I caught Oliver in a ton of contradictions in his worldview.

05:27:28.040 A lot of silliness.

05:27:28.780 There was a bunch of other things I wanted to hone down in, in feminism, but he did a

05:27:32.200 lot of virtue signaling, because he didn't want to get into the age gap argument, even

05:27:36.880 though I think that that's completely pertinent, because it's part of a feminist worldview.

05:27:41.120 Not only is it part of a feminist worldview, but it's part of trying to label men as being

05:27:45.660 some type of super predators.

05:27:48.060 But because they know they can never justify any of those claims when we hone in on them,

05:27:52.600 they completely back away from them as quickly as possible.

05:27:55.080 Oliver actually stonewalled the debate for a good 40 minutes.

05:27:58.780 Maybe more by just refusing to engage in this very prominent feminist view, even, even

05:28:05.040 though, and to, to his defense, and then also at his detriment, if it were the case that

05:28:10.660 he didn't have any qualms with it, if he was like, no, I don't have any issues there.

05:28:15.260 Even if it's part of a feminist view, I would have moved on, but he actually did have issues

05:28:19.460 there and then just refused to engage.

05:28:21.880 And that's bullshit.

05:28:22.540 And I wouldn't do that back.

05:28:23.740 Right.

05:28:24.100 I just wouldn't do that back.

05:28:25.880 The, this is kind of like many of these tangential issues, which come up, all of them are actually

05:28:30.900 relational to feminism, especially when we're talking about dating, things like this.

05:28:34.820 I want you to think about all the crazy ass shit that Oliver has said tonight.

05:28:39.360 Oliver has said, uh, that he can provide no justifications for his worldview on age gaps,

05:28:46.180 for instance, and then he moves forward and he's like, and I just, I just don't want to

05:28:51.160 engage.

05:28:51.880 I just, I just don't want to, even though I have no way to justify any of the things I'm

05:28:55.940 saying, you don't want to engage.

05:28:57.280 He bit the bullet and said, he doesn't really care about incestuous relationships ultimately

05:29:01.760 when it comes to between men and women, even though, how does this really, how is this

05:29:06.600 relationship?

05:29:07.180 And yeah, you can go look at it yourself, Oliver, but how does this relationship end up kind

05:29:11.420 of coinciding with feminist ideology?

05:29:13.680 Well, it coincides because of the alternative family unit.

05:29:16.480 You may remember we got on this based on alternative families.

05:29:19.200 And when we started diving in, honing in on what alternative families was, Oliver choked

05:29:23.720 again, right?

05:29:24.860 It turns out that he's more akin to our view than we are to his of like the kind of gender

05:29:30.600 correlation and how useful it is towards the kind of dynamic family unit that we want to

05:29:35.780 see in society.

05:29:36.840 Basically at almost every level, we saw Oliver contradict himself over and over and over again.

05:29:41.520 Now it's very difficult to summarize because we've been in like a five hour debate.

05:29:45.420 I'm used to long form debates.

05:29:46.640 I don't mind, but just recognize that the only person here tonight who had a consistent

05:29:53.320 worldview who did not contradict himself and never had any of it refuted was me.

05:29:59.800 The person had his entire worldview refuted on almost every single point was Oliver.

05:30:04.720 And the person who contradict his worldview was Oliver.

05:30:06.560 Remember, and you guys can go find this clip.

05:30:09.620 If Oliver decides he wants to clip this up, we'll respond in kind where Oliver says, my

05:30:17.860 viewpoint may not be consistent, but it's still better and better than yours because it

05:30:23.660 wants better things.

05:30:24.660 And it's like, but if it's inconsistent, how do we even know what the viewpoint really is?

05:30:28.580 Because it contradicts itself so often.

05:30:30.780 So don't believe any of this shit.

05:30:32.280 This is the typical degenerate nonsense, right?

05:30:35.340 When we really start to move into the views, Oliver really doesn't have shit.

05:30:39.760 He was like, this guy doesn't want women to vote.

05:30:42.420 And I said, well, let's get into women voting and the right to vote.

05:30:45.420 Huge feminist issue.

05:30:46.800 What does he say?

05:30:47.620 I don't want to engage.

05:30:49.140 I'm not getting into a conversation about women voting or men voting or the vote at all.

05:30:52.820 I'm not getting into democracy.

05:30:54.460 I'm not getting into how these things socially impact anything else.

05:30:58.600 All of these are feminist points.

05:31:00.260 He doesn't want to engage with any of them, but he's here to defend feminism.

05:31:02.660 He said, well, only on the points I want to defend feminism on.

05:31:05.480 Well, you got to refute my points too, right?

05:31:08.060 You got to refute mine as well.

05:31:09.400 He didn't make a refutation for any fucking point I made.

05:31:12.620 He can't show you ever that he made one because he never did.

05:31:16.060 I refuted every one of his though.

05:31:18.020 You'll find this consistently time and time and time again in my debates with feminists.

05:31:22.260 They cannot defend their view.

05:31:24.180 So, and the last word I'll say this for, for the purpose of charitability, Oliver was far

05:31:31.360 less annoying than most of the feminists I debate.

05:31:33.640 And he knows enough, at least about philosophy that we could have a conversation for that.

05:31:38.240 I tip my hat to Oliver and appreciate that.

05:31:40.640 But ultimately you got blown the fuck out and you deserved it because your worldview is

05:31:45.760 totally inconsistent.

05:31:46.840 And I wish you would just like, if you listened to what I was saying and then actually made

05:31:51.840 refutations to the points, it would go way better for you.

05:31:54.260 So ultimately I'll just say this.

05:31:55.580 Thank you for coming out and debating.

05:31:56.900 I really appreciate it.

05:31:57.960 I know it's been a long debate.

05:31:58.960 You're probably not used to those.

05:32:01.540 But in the spirit of, again, of charitability, I do appreciate your time and appreciate you

05:32:06.080 coming out.

05:32:07.340 Thank you.

05:32:08.860 All good?

05:32:09.380 Yeah, go for it.

05:32:10.040 Okay.

05:32:10.340 Yeah.

05:32:10.560 Thank you to Brian for hosting this.

05:32:12.780 Thank you to Andrew for coming out.

05:32:16.500 Yeah, this debate has definitely been all over the place.

05:32:19.500 One thing that I will admit is Andrew is better at debating than me.

05:32:23.680 Andrew is better at rhetoric.

05:32:25.060 Andrew is better at framing things, regardless of maybe how fair I think characterizations

05:32:30.760 are.

05:32:31.780 Props to you, Andrew.

05:32:32.600 You definitely won the rhetoric points.

05:32:34.340 What I'm largely arguing for is just visions of society.

05:32:37.800 Visions of society that relate to feminism and ones that don't relate directly to feminism.

05:32:44.980 But if we're talking about my vision specifically, I am advocating in favor of women having legal

05:32:50.580 equality, having the right to vote, having the right to bodily autonomy, being able to

05:32:54.740 be financially independent, not having to be dependent on a man, having freedom and autonomy

05:33:00.400 in other areas of their life.

05:33:02.360 I think that my position is one that embraces Western values, embraces life, liberty, and

05:33:09.120 the pursuit of happiness.

05:33:10.040 Not this rigid view in which women have to be in this role and men have to be in this

05:33:14.840 role, but individuals themselves, regardless of sex and gender, are empowered to reach

05:33:22.200 their highest potential and are not subjugated from doing so.

05:33:25.540 I mean, we're talking about Andrew's vision in general.

05:33:28.040 You know, he's saying I didn't push back on the points.

05:33:29.860 I mean, fair enough.

05:33:31.260 I didn't make an argument as to why women should be able to vote.

05:33:34.300 Andrew's in favor of repealing the 19th Amendment.

05:33:36.640 The worldview that he advocates for is one in which women fundamentally, largely are dependent

05:33:41.600 on their husbands, and he argues that that's a good thing.

05:33:44.740 I think that, you know, that means that women aren't able to participate equally in the political

05:33:48.860 process.

05:33:49.480 And, you know, I think that Andrew's worldview, in terms of the society that he advocates for,

05:33:55.780 and especially his hostility to democracy, makes the worldview that he's advocating for

05:34:00.100 more akin to these Middle Eastern countries that he's against, instead of the democracy

05:34:04.620 that we have right now.

05:34:06.000 You know, I'm not going to push back to you, bro.

05:34:07.040 Dude, you're referring to me as a jihadist, bro?

05:34:09.180 Andrew.

05:34:09.560 Wait, Andrew, let him do this.

05:34:10.220 All right, all right.

05:34:10.860 Let him do this.

05:34:11.640 There are similarities between the worldviews in the sense of the cracking down on what

05:34:19.300 people are able to do and what positions they're able to live in.

05:34:22.720 So, you know, I think on that point, I have presented what I view as the best version of

05:34:29.300 this, and Andrew definitely got me caught in a bunch of different language and rhetorical

05:34:33.260 traps, and I'm not denying that.

05:34:34.720 But I think still, regardless of that, I think my vision is a correct one and one that ought

05:34:41.480 to be embraced, even if I didn't do the best job defending it tonight.

05:34:48.460 All right, that was great.

05:34:49.620 Thank you, guys.

05:34:50.840 You know what?

05:34:51.600 Here's what we'll do.

05:34:54.300 You guys fine with, like, a 10-minute roast session?

05:34:57.120 Of course.

05:34:58.380 Yeah, we'll do a 10-minute roast, and we can banter about a couple things.

05:35:01.620 We do have some super chats that came through.

05:35:03.500 We got Lucas.

05:35:04.480 I'm going to call my ride to head over this way, though.

05:35:07.620 He'll stick around while we chat.

05:35:09.020 Is it Jake?

05:35:09.940 Yeah.

05:35:10.400 Yeah.

05:35:10.780 Oh, okay.

05:35:11.160 I'll just call him and let him know.

05:35:12.720 Okay.

05:35:13.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:35:13.740 I'll be right back.

05:35:14.960 We have, so, $30 TTS for a brief roast session, and we're just going to get this wrapped up

05:35:21.620 soon.

05:35:21.880 We do have Lucas here.

05:35:23.500 Hey there, Cucky.

05:35:25.540 Wow.

05:35:27.080 Wow, Lucas.

05:35:28.040 Oh, it's Lucas.

05:35:28.680 Hey, man.

05:35:29.420 Pleasure to make your acquaintance.

05:35:30.740 Genuine question.

05:35:31.940 Have you ever had your testosterone level measured?

05:35:34.740 What would you think the over-under is on your testosterone level, exceeding the testosterone

05:35:39.480 level of the average woman?

05:35:43.820 Next super chat.

05:35:46.440 I'll, I'll, yeah.

05:35:47.700 He's here.

05:35:49.380 Oh.

05:35:50.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:35:51.440 Thanks.

05:35:52.360 I don't want to do it.

05:35:54.140 Just have him join the fucking roast.

05:35:56.960 Okay.

05:35:57.220 We can have him come.

05:35:58.240 Yeah, have him come up so we can do it in the roast.

05:35:59.840 Do you want me to, you know?

05:36:03.740 I don't have a key to give you.

05:36:07.380 Or, you know what?

05:36:07.980 Give me one sec, but we'll grab him in just a moment, okay?

05:36:10.560 Give me one sec.

05:36:11.980 All right, we got, so, you know, Lucas, this is what I'll tell you.

05:36:15.480 Lucas, this is what I'm going to tell you.

05:36:19.720 Before the show, I already said this.

05:36:21.080 Before the show, we, we do, uh, we get blood from all the debate participants to test, you

05:36:27.580 know, they're, they're, make sure they don't have diabetes.

05:36:30.380 It's, it's like, uh, our insurance, it's a liability thing.

05:36:34.200 We, you know, like how before a movie they, they got to do like a physical, we put, uh,

05:36:39.200 Oliver through a physical and, you know, flying really good results.

05:36:44.160 Oliver.

05:36:47.680 Oliver is not amused.

05:36:49.300 Oliver is immune to my charms.

05:36:52.960 No, you're chill, Brian.

05:36:53.920 I've just been traveling all day.

05:36:55.780 That's fair.

05:36:56.220 No, that's true.

05:36:56.800 Actually, you flew in today.

05:36:57.720 That's true.

05:36:58.160 That's true.

05:36:58.980 Um, but no, Oliver's testosterone level, Lucas, very high.

05:37:03.300 In fact, Lucas, since you like to challenge people to pushup contests, you know what?

05:37:07.340 Oliver, Oliver, would you do a testosterone, uh, duel with Lucas?

05:37:13.620 And if your testosterone is higher than his, he has to pay you $10,000.

05:37:18.220 No, I'm not.

05:37:18.700 Lucas, do you accept that challenge?

05:37:20.320 No.

05:37:20.680 And if Oliver loses, we're not going to ask him for $10,000, but Oliver, you have to get

05:37:27.660 your nails painted on stream.

05:37:30.420 Uh, I'm.

05:37:31.460 That's it.

05:37:31.860 If you lose, that's it.

05:37:33.140 You just have.

05:37:33.760 I mean, I, funny rhetorical point.

05:37:36.240 The upside is $10,000, Oliver.

05:37:38.540 Yeah, but that's not happening.

05:37:39.580 So I understand.

05:37:40.520 No, he might.

05:37:41.060 Lucas is well off.

05:37:42.160 He.

05:37:42.240 $10,000, Oliver.

05:37:45.120 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not getting my, I'm not getting my testosterone tested.

05:37:48.120 I don't, I don't care about this.

05:37:49.440 This is not relevant.

05:37:51.180 I'm not going to play into this idea that testosterone makes you more of a man or this

05:37:55.100 idea in general.

05:37:55.860 So no, I'm not, I'm not contributing.

05:37:57.700 I tried.

05:37:58.180 Maybe I'll talk to Oliver after the show.

05:37:59.920 I might be able to, you know, we'll, we'll see.

05:38:01.520 We'll see.

05:38:01.800 We'll see.

05:38:02.280 All right.

05:38:02.720 Thank you, Lucas.

05:38:03.380 Appreciate it.

05:38:03.840 $30 TTS roast.

05:38:05.340 Get them in.

05:38:05.900 Final call.

05:38:06.820 Andrew's coming back.

05:38:07.980 Guys, we're going to get, you know what?

05:38:09.620 We're going to get Jake really quick.

05:38:11.060 We're hold on one sec.

05:38:12.120 Uh, we'll get Jake.

05:38:15.200 You know what?

05:38:15.700 While I, I'll go grab him.

05:38:17.240 Yeah.

05:38:17.520 And do you want to rejoin the table?

05:38:19.120 Yeah.

05:38:19.380 And, uh, I'll, I'll just go grab him.

05:38:21.900 And, uh, I'll, uh, okay, perfect.

05:38:25.640 Perfect.

05:38:26.360 I don't think Oliver's going to attack me or nothing.

05:38:27.800 Here, I'm going to let these two chats in.

05:38:29.540 All right.

05:38:29.960 Uh, but you guys, while I'm gone, you know, I've kept to the peace.

05:38:33.040 So when I go away for two, three minutes to go get Jake.

05:38:35.860 You're good, dude.

05:38:36.460 I want you guys.

05:38:37.380 You've already been away.

05:38:38.280 No, no violence.

05:38:40.340 Not as much as you being away for two and a half hours during the Jim Bob debate.

05:38:43.720 That's fair.

05:38:44.420 I was sick.

05:38:45.560 I needed a $69.

05:38:47.500 Intel.

05:38:47.840 Oliver Sprinkler goes like this.

05:38:49.720 Tweak, tweak, tweak, sneak, me, me, me, me, sneak, me, me, me, me, me.

05:38:54.520 Yeah.

05:38:54.700 You got to grab Jake though.

05:38:55.640 Yeah.

05:38:55.820 I'll go.

05:38:56.180 You got to have Jake.

05:38:57.060 All right.

05:38:57.520 All right.

05:38:58.040 We've got another one coming in.

05:38:59.340 I'm going to put it up.

05:39:00.500 I'll put it here.

05:39:01.420 I'll be right back folks.

05:39:02.960 Thank you.

05:39:04.360 Perfect.

05:39:05.260 Perfect.

05:39:06.260 So.

05:39:08.760 Oh.

05:39:09.480 Oh.

05:39:09.560 Oh.

05:39:09.860 Intel and Wilde donated $69.

05:39:12.900 Oliver, if you were in a loving relationship and you're Oliver, if a significant other wanted you

05:39:18.500 to sit in the corner and watch her get pleasured by another man.

05:39:21.880 No.

05:39:22.240 Would you?

05:39:23.200 No, I wouldn't.

05:39:23.580 It would mean a lot to her.

05:39:24.560 Yeah, no, I wouldn't.

05:39:25.360 That's not something I'm comfortable with.

05:39:26.820 I'm not.

05:39:27.640 I know.

05:39:28.040 I know the cuck allegations.

05:39:29.440 I know they're going like crazy.

05:39:30.620 But no.

05:39:31.280 I value, you know, in terms of relationships, in terms of committed relationships, I do value

05:39:35.460 monogamy.

05:39:35.860 And that's not really something that I would entertain.

05:39:38.380 Do you understand why they would be like, and now we're like past debate mode, just

05:39:42.460 in like chill combo mode, right?

05:39:44.460 You understand why men would have such a bad intuition towards that.

05:39:47.940 And it's far past social dynamics.

05:39:50.420 Like there's, there's like a revolting element to that for a lot of men.

05:39:53.900 I understand that.

05:39:54.920 But I think it's, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong.

05:39:57.380 I think it would largely come from, you don't want to see like another man, like having sex

05:40:01.640 with quote unquote, your woman, like it would be, yeah, of course, it would be considered

05:40:05.240 emasculating, it would be emasculating, it would be kind of like, he's, he's, well,

05:40:09.200 there's betrayal, there's a betrayal aspect too, right?

05:40:11.360 Like the idea that a woman really loves you, she really cares about you, like she wants

05:40:16.580 to be, so from the Christian view, for instance, right?

05:40:18.880 My wife's part of me.

05:40:20.300 Okay.

05:40:21.140 That's how, that's how we think of it.

05:40:23.040 Metaphorically, right?

05:40:24.580 Well, no, we, we, we think that we're quite literally part of each other, even beyond.

05:40:29.740 Like numerical identity in terms of, well, it's not, it's, it's not identity, but it's,

05:40:34.500 it's difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins.

05:40:37.740 Well, probably that you're here and she's not, right?

05:40:40.920 Well, so you're just talking about the law of identity.

05:40:43.400 Sure.

05:40:43.800 So yeah, there's, there would be a distinction in identity.

05:40:46.500 Yeah.

05:40:46.800 Which you understand that you can have two separate, yeah.

05:40:50.000 Different sense.

05:40:50.580 Exactly.

05:40:51.260 Okay, fine.

05:40:51.800 Yeah, yeah.

05:40:52.120 So the thing is, is like, that's, that's how it is from our worldview.

05:40:55.360 And so as we look at that from our worldview, it's like, for me, there would be an aspect

05:41:00.360 of massive betrayal, even if such a request were made or vice versa, right?

05:41:05.860 Because it would be me betraying me.

05:41:08.980 You know what I mean?

05:41:10.080 Like if my preference is for me and from my view, like, um, my, uh, my deontological view

05:41:17.660 or my Christian ethical view is that if I were to ever sleep with somebody outside of my wife,

05:41:23.240 I'm betraying her, then even for my wife to make the request to open a relationship up

05:41:29.040 to have sex with another man, even with my consent would be an act of betrayal from my

05:41:32.880 view.

05:41:34.000 Okay.

05:41:34.500 Does that make sense?

05:41:35.320 I mean, I don't, I don't share the same view, but I understand on your view, how you view

05:41:39.540 it that way.

05:41:39.920 But don't you kind of, because like if a woman asked you to open your relationship up.

05:41:44.400 I would feel sad.

05:41:44.980 I would be, it would be a conversation we would have and be like, if it was, what was it?

05:41:48.860 If it, if the conversation, well, I don't actually think that would ever happen because if I was

05:41:53.400 dating someone and I've probably made it clear to most people that I've dated that that's

05:41:56.300 really, that's no way.

05:41:57.140 Yeah.

05:41:57.260 There's no way I get that.

05:41:58.480 But I'm just saying you can envision that if it were to happen for some reason, how you

05:42:04.780 could feel like that was betrayal.

05:42:07.040 I don't know if I would view it as betrayal.

05:42:09.340 I would view it as more like, dang, it's really unfortunate that it's not working out.

05:42:15.060 It's really unfortunate that we aren't compatible.

05:42:18.440 Oh, broke my pencil.

05:42:19.760 Um, I did that earlier, but I fixed it.

05:42:22.360 There we go.

05:42:23.300 I don't think this is fixable.

05:42:24.780 It's plastic.

05:42:25.340 I can fix it.

05:42:26.180 But if Andrew can, if Andrew can fix the pencil, I'll concede the debate.

05:42:31.040 No.

05:42:31.300 Okay.

05:42:31.780 Fair enough.

05:42:32.720 Um, yeah, I would just view it as like, yeah, it would be really unfortunate.

05:42:36.200 We would be incompatible in that way.

05:42:38.280 And we should definitely go find different people to which we saw that would make you sad is that

05:42:42.800 she no longer fits the preferences that you have.

05:42:46.520 Well, in a sense, but it's not just that I, um, doesn't fit the preferences.

05:42:51.200 It's also just, it's sad that we're not compatible in that way.

05:42:54.940 But it's when I deeply care about and they have diverging preferences from me.

05:42:59.040 Isn't the idea though, the thing, which is making a divergent, a feeling of like being

05:43:04.360 betrayed.

05:43:05.200 I don't know.

05:43:06.280 I'm not getting that betrayal feeling.

05:43:07.840 I'm getting the, this is really unfortunate.

05:43:10.300 Like I would be like, I would, I'm not, I say this a lot and this is just completely

05:43:15.220 outside of the context of debate.

05:43:16.340 Like feelings can't really be wrong.

05:43:18.380 You know what I mean?

05:43:19.040 I don't think you can feel, you can't, like you can have a feeling.

05:43:22.460 The feeling can be unjustified.

05:43:24.020 The feeling can be an unfair, silly or something like that, but it can't be wrong that you're

05:43:28.100 having the feeling.

05:43:28.980 So if my partner was having that feeling, I would want them to express that to me and

05:43:34.820 not hide it from me.

05:43:36.680 You know, we can work through it, you know, something like that.

05:43:39.640 So that's kind of where I think that if you feel betrayed by somebody, you have to be

05:43:47.380 at least have some kind of like good established relationship with them or what are they betraying?

05:43:52.740 Like if some random leftist I've never met before started attacking me online, they're

05:43:56.580 not betraying me.

05:43:57.520 Right.

05:43:57.720 Sure.

05:43:58.040 I'm not.

05:43:58.640 So there has to be, there has to be some kind of like idea.

05:44:02.160 I think they're also in both betrayal.

05:44:03.800 I feel like it has to be some sort of like intent.

05:44:07.800 You know what I mean?

05:44:08.540 Like you, with my partner said this to me, then I would, then I would want them to express

05:44:14.580 that to me because if they didn't express it to me and it was happening, what it would

05:44:18.320 mean is they were feeling that and it was something that they were feeling, but they

05:44:21.720 weren't expressing it to me.

05:44:22.820 And that's worse.

05:44:23.300 I think that the feelings of betrayal happen because you feel like you have knowledge

05:44:26.560 of the person and you understand that the person kind of like has your back.

05:44:31.420 And part of that having your back is the preference based thing.

05:44:34.220 Like the idea here is if I was at a bar with a good friend of mine and he like unjustly started

05:44:41.320 a fight, I'm still going to back him up.

05:44:43.420 Right.

05:44:44.020 Yeah.

05:44:44.440 I'm still going to back him up.

05:44:45.760 The thing is though, is that like, yeah.

05:44:48.500 If he just starts, okay, let's just start beating the shit out of some random dude, you're

05:44:52.760 just going to join in with him?

05:44:54.080 Well, no, no.

05:44:54.780 Then I would try to pull him back.

05:44:56.520 Right.

05:44:56.920 But if like that random dude's friends try to come in, it's on like fucking Donkey Kong.

05:45:01.820 Sure.

05:45:02.060 You want to de-escalate.

05:45:03.840 But by me not doing that, that's where like that feeling of betrayal I would feel like would

05:45:08.940 be justified from him.

05:45:10.180 Even if he's in a, what I would consider to be a wrongful action, that's for us to correct.

05:45:14.920 Right.

05:45:15.160 Sure.

05:45:15.300 But how is that?

05:45:16.400 What's the parallel?

05:45:17.420 Because it would be the same thing in a relationship.

05:45:19.180 It's like the idea is, um, what, what makes it feel like betrayal is like, I know you so

05:45:25.320 well, right?

05:45:26.220 You know me so well, you know what, what it is that we're kind of about.

05:45:29.980 And then you're trying to like, hang on, you're trying to kind of like change the system on

05:45:34.780 me in a way.

05:45:35.900 I know.

05:45:37.320 I think that you actually don't know someone as well as you do if they are having this

05:45:42.800 feeling and not telling you.

05:45:45.040 Yeah, but isn't that the feeling of betrayal?

05:45:48.120 Like if this person comes out with like, like, let's say you had a great experience

05:45:52.740 with a person, you were having like a great night, a good close friend.

05:45:55.600 And then the next day he comes out and he's like, oh, this fucking person's a piece of

05:45:58.800 shit.

05:45:59.040 And he's a, this into that.

05:46:00.340 Don't you feel betrayed by that?

05:46:02.040 Well, I do.

05:46:02.420 But they're also making a conscious decision to do it in a way that is disparaging and

05:46:07.440 maybe not.

05:46:08.020 Like if they just like, like if you had a great time and they're recounting their events truthfully

05:46:13.040 and they're just like, I don't know, like maybe they had a misunderstanding and then they're

05:46:16.040 suddenly just like, yeah, I really didn't like this person did this and it just made me feel

05:46:19.700 this way.

05:46:20.320 Right.

05:46:20.460 And I just have a completely different view of it.

05:46:22.100 But the fact that they were even public about it makes it feel like the betrayal part, right?

05:46:25.000 Well, wait a second, a hundred percent.

05:46:26.480 But I'm also not saying that within that type of relationship, what a woman should do if

05:46:30.260 she's having problems in a relationship or a man for that matter is if she wants to open

05:46:34.340 the relationship, just go and tell every one of her friends, oh my God, I want to open

05:46:37.780 the relationship.

05:46:37.940 Doesn't it follow that most of the time a woman would want to open a relationship or

05:46:41.980 a man is because they're having experiences with other women or other men and they're

05:46:49.100 kind of like feeling like they're attracted.

05:46:50.840 That's what triggers this very idea of trying to approach their partner about the open

05:46:55.020 relationship.

05:46:55.700 I'm not sure.

05:46:56.240 I think it sometimes can.

05:46:57.400 That follows though, right?

05:46:58.520 It could.

05:46:58.720 It could absolutely follow that someone like is having...

05:47:01.300 And doesn't that feel like betrayal?

05:47:02.660 It feels like betrayal if once again, that comes out of nowhere.

05:47:07.040 Okay.

05:47:07.340 But if you're just so that we can get this wrapped up by the time, uh, Lucas, really

05:47:13.200 quick, LOL shirt challenge accepted testosterone level as per test six months ago equals 810

05:47:19.560 damn, uh, whatever that is at 50 years old.

05:47:22.760 That's pretty good.

05:47:24.540 810 at 50 is pretty good.

05:47:26.460 Uh, six foot four, 235 pounds, bench over 300 pounds, happy to provide receipts on all

05:47:30.840 the foregoing metrics and no TRT, at least not yet.

05:47:33.740 That's like fucking 19 year old levels, dude.

05:47:36.040 Hey, yeah, that's fucking wild.

05:47:39.780 All right, guys, uh, $30 TTS.

05:47:41.900 Get them in.

05:47:42.380 Last call on these.

05:47:43.360 Cause we got to get this wrapped up for everybody.

05:47:44.960 We've got stream rift here coming in.

05:47:46.640 Thank you, man.

05:47:47.140 Stream rift donated $30.

05:47:49.000 Appreciate it, man.

05:47:49.600 Brian, you and Andrew do the Lord's work.

05:47:51.960 Thank you.

05:47:52.120 Thank you for being you.

05:47:53.940 Jake's fault.

05:47:54.400 Oliver, I missed most of this, but no one with your views starts off with a bad heart.

05:47:59.480 You are acting like a man and showing up.

05:48:02.140 Starting.

05:48:03.080 All right.

05:48:04.080 He'll get there, bro.

05:48:05.100 He'll get there.

05:48:05.480 Randy donated $30.

05:48:06.740 We had to have a contrast.

05:48:07.860 Soy boy, you cross her legs like a lady.

05:48:11.020 Clear sign that her feminine, have small balls, and low T.

05:48:14.860 They made a claim, like, they made a claim here.

05:48:20.440 Work blue collar for five plus years.

05:48:22.800 It'll help you.

05:48:24.260 Blue collar.

05:48:25.740 Blue collar work would help you, actually.

05:48:28.260 Just, like, try it.

05:48:29.300 Just go, like, do HVAC for a few weeks.

05:48:31.400 I did landscaping a bit over the summer.

05:48:33.440 That's tough work.

05:48:34.660 Yeah, it is.

05:48:35.200 That's tough work.

05:48:36.180 Sorry, yeah.

05:48:37.220 Got these nates.

05:48:38.280 These nates donated $30.

05:48:40.600 Oliver, I'm not going to play into the idea that testosterone makes you.

05:48:44.860 more of a man.

05:48:46.260 A single tear falls down the face of Oliver's trans male fans getting hormone therapy.

05:48:55.160 That was, like, that was pretty clever.

05:48:57.760 Okay.

05:48:59.920 I mean, I don't know how serious of a response you want from me.

05:49:03.640 My hat!

05:49:07.020 Yeah.

05:49:08.160 All right.

05:49:08.580 Anime Busters donated $30.

05:49:11.420 Love the handshake between you two.

05:49:13.580 That's nice.

05:49:13.920 Love seeing honor even between philosophical enemies.

05:49:17.460 I also owe Oliver an apology.

05:49:19.960 I called you a vampire-looking ass boy.

05:49:22.500 You're just young.

05:49:24.140 And you are an okay guy.

05:49:27.160 There's hope.

05:49:27.880 There's hope.

05:49:28.280 They retracted the vampire allegations.

05:49:30.660 By the way, I initiated a handshake.

05:49:32.420 Just so you know.

05:49:33.560 $30.

05:49:34.780 Thank you, six back.

05:49:35.680 You're not a bad guy, Oliver.

05:49:36.420 You've just been propagandized by your life-shit professors.

05:49:40.960 Your whole ideology is a massive victory for women.

05:49:43.880 Listen to Andrew.

05:49:45.180 He has wisdom and rock-solid logic.

05:49:47.520 This doesn't come from my college professors, mind you.

05:49:49.480 Okay?

05:49:49.760 I go to one of the most liberal universities in the country, and I hate some of those people.

05:49:54.060 Totally disassociated from the fact that you do that, though, your ideology.

05:49:57.180 Your ideology is completely disassociated from the fact that you go to some of the most liberal school in the country.

05:50:02.940 Dude, I am disillusioned by a lot of that stuff.

05:50:06.480 There's an old saying, Oliver, right?

05:50:08.140 And you can find it in the original Batman movie by Tim Burton.

05:50:11.000 It's great.

05:50:11.520 If you dance with the devil, the devil don't change.

05:50:13.820 The devil changes you.

05:50:15.780 They have actually changed me a bit, and they've changed me probably against some of the things that they believe in.

05:50:21.300 Oh, my God.

05:50:21.920 That's the greatest thing ever.

05:50:23.120 I hope that we can continue this with you having more engagements with leftists until you become me at 40.

05:50:29.540 No.

05:50:31.900 I mean, I talked a little bit.

05:50:34.100 I talked a little bit.

05:50:34.660 I donated $30.

05:50:36.380 I'm going to say what everyone here is thinking.

05:50:39.400 Oliver is a cool cuck.

05:50:43.460 It's a compliment.

05:50:45.100 Oh, thank goodness.

05:50:45.900 The first part.

05:50:46.440 Oh, thank goodness.

05:50:47.240 Yeah.

05:50:47.440 The first part.

05:50:48.740 Better than a normal one.

05:50:50.080 Guys, final call last week.

05:50:51.300 Oh, again, if you want to get a roast in, we have.

05:50:54.020 Oh, boy.

05:50:54.660 Okay.

05:50:55.000 I'll let it come through.

05:50:55.520 Not good, donated $30.

05:50:57.620 Why is it always the gays that defend feminism?

05:51:00.400 This is the question.

05:51:01.480 Hey, I saw Jim Bob down there.

05:51:02.740 I'll read that really quick.

05:51:03.960 Made by Jim Bob.

05:51:04.680 Oliver, if I see the wisdom of an old soul in my spouse, does it follow that I want to bang an old person?

05:51:10.180 Not good, donated $30.

05:51:12.480 Oliver is definitely pasty enough to be a white knight.

05:51:15.920 Andrew, keep it up.

05:51:17.900 Watch your crucible and your debates.

05:51:20.520 Enjoy watching you crush blue hairs.

05:51:23.380 Keep it up.

05:51:24.120 Yes, sir.

05:51:24.720 And thank you to everybody.

05:51:26.120 It's a blue shirt.

05:51:26.540 At the crucible right now who stuck it through this whole debate.

05:51:29.580 I hope you had a great time.

05:51:30.500 And at the whatever chat, you guys have always been, well, not always been very welcoming.

05:51:36.020 But I feel like over the course of almost several years now, I've done my part to win you over to possibly at least some parts of my ideology.

05:51:44.940 But I've always felt very welcome here.

05:51:47.540 And so for that, I thank you.

05:51:49.260 Rock and roll, guys.

05:51:50.340 Okay, cool.

05:51:51.040 So those are all that came through.

05:51:52.880 If there's any that kind of sneak in here at the end, feel free to get a final roast in here.

05:51:58.100 Hold on one sec.

05:51:58.960 We have a message.

05:51:59.100 You going to grab a beer?

05:52:00.520 I got one left in there.

05:52:02.840 Oh, we should give him one of the super beers.

05:52:05.200 He has to drive, though.

05:52:06.500 Oh, super beers.

05:52:07.140 He's got to drive, bro.

05:52:08.640 The Australian has to drive.

05:52:10.000 I'm already, like, my chances of, like.

05:52:11.920 Oh, did, you know, I know we're kind of over the debate session.

05:52:16.380 But if you guys want to have a more casual conversation, never really got into the Force Doctrine convo.

05:52:21.760 Do you guys want to have, like, a five-minute?

05:52:23.120 We can't get into it, man.

05:52:23.980 A five-minute.

05:52:25.220 Bro, I got somewhere else I got to get to tonight.

05:52:26.820 Oh, you do?

05:52:27.360 Okay.

05:52:27.900 Okay.

05:52:28.400 Got it.

05:52:28.860 Yeah.

05:52:29.420 And we still have some things to talk about after this.

05:52:31.820 Sure, sure.

05:52:32.420 Yeah, yeah.

05:52:32.700 Okay, cool.

05:52:33.440 Well, I'll get this all wrapped up, then.

05:52:35.500 Rock and roll.

05:52:36.000 Well, there's two more chats coming through, then we'll wrap this up.

05:52:39.380 And if any trickle through, we'll get to them.

05:52:41.380 But, all right, we have.

05:52:41.920 You guys think a little bit of weight loss?

05:52:43.360 It's happening.

05:52:43.800 One shot to 17, donated $30.

05:52:45.980 No, one shot.

05:52:46.660 Thank you, man.

05:52:46.920 Andrew, thank you for defending Jim Bob.

05:52:49.040 You don't ever have to thank me for that.

05:52:49.960 Oliver, I may despise your views, but I'll apologize for calling you a pig snake weasel since you recalled your Jim Bob statement.

05:52:57.660 Kyrie Eliason.

05:52:58.920 You don't, you don't, first of all, you don't ever have to thank me for defending my friends.

05:53:02.540 That's my honor and my privilege to do.

05:53:06.000 All right, we have Jason Cassell.

05:53:08.300 Thank you, Jason.

05:53:09.960 Jason Cassell donated $30.

05:53:12.140 Is it Castle or Cassell?

05:53:12.820 Oliver, the whole point of indoctrination is that you would not be aware of the indoctrination.

05:53:17.800 Yeah.

05:53:18.220 Yes, your school most likely has a big impact.

05:53:21.460 True, but I've actually become less, I guess, progressive on certain things.

05:53:26.680 So, since my time in school, I've moved away from some things.

05:53:31.280 I feel like this arc will continue, Oliver.

05:53:33.500 I don't think it's fully going to continue.

05:53:34.600 I don't.

05:53:35.140 I, you know, I don't agree with most, if not with what you've said, however.

05:53:40.400 Why don't you get these liberal professors to come in and debate with me?

05:53:43.120 I would love that so much.

05:53:44.740 Just crush these leftist professors.

05:53:47.580 Well.

05:53:48.540 Would you guys do a round two conversation?

05:53:51.620 Of course.

05:53:52.260 I'm always, for people who come in, they have spirited debates.

05:53:56.760 They're willing to move into the worldviews.

05:53:59.740 We can get upset during the debate.

05:54:02.560 We can get, you know, kind of at each other's throats during the debate.

05:54:05.920 I've never taken any of this personally with anybody, and I still don't.

05:54:11.080 So, if you ever want to do a round two, of course, I'm open for him.

05:54:14.880 You open to it, Oliver?

05:54:16.440 Yeah, I mean, it also just really depends on scheduling and stuff.

05:54:18.560 I've been here two times in the past three weeks.

05:54:21.460 And for that, I thank you, by the way.

05:54:22.820 Yeah.

05:54:23.620 Rock and roll.

05:54:24.520 All right, guys.

05:54:25.320 I hope you enjoyed the stream.

05:54:27.040 Kindly like the video, please.

05:54:29.000 Like the video.

05:54:30.300 Let me just make sure we're all good to get this wrapped.

05:54:34.140 Guys, like the video, please, on the way out.

05:54:36.040 If you enjoyed the stream, give me one sec, guys.

05:54:39.940 Just a quick update on our schedule.

05:54:41.960 We have another debate with Andrew Wilson tomorrow.

05:54:45.280 We have a dating talk panel Sunday.

05:54:47.780 We have a debate Monday.

05:54:49.860 That's going to be an interesting one.

05:54:52.120 Somebody you guys probably know.

05:54:54.300 And then Tuesday, we have Tuesdays.

05:54:58.620 We might actually shift the programming for that, but we got a super panel, potentially a super panel.

05:55:04.120 Fingers crossed on that.

05:55:05.360 So, full, packed schedule for the next couple days.

05:55:08.520 So, be sure to tune in.

05:55:09.380 We're aiming to go live about 3.30 p.m. tomorrow, though, for tomorrow's debate with Andrew Wilson and mystery debate opponent.

05:55:18.340 So, be sure to tune in for that.

05:55:20.140 Okay.

05:55:20.380 We're all good on chats.

05:55:22.220 All right, guys.

05:55:23.200 07's in the chat.

05:55:24.080 Thank you so much for tuning in.

05:55:25.640 And we will see you guys next time.

05:55:28.860 Good night, guys.

05:55:29.520 Take care, guys.

05:55:30.120 Take care, guys.

05:55:35.360 Bye-bye.

Andrew Wilson vs. Woke Male Feminist Oliver ｜ Whatever Debates #18

Summary

Transcript