Whatever Podcast - Destiny, Jazmen Jafar VS Lila Rose, Trent Horn DEBATE

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00:01:19.840 topic please uh destiny is not going to address any private relationship details you can still

00:01:26.820 dunk on jasmine and lila if you want not trent though he is uh he's a bit sensitive it's true

00:01:33.020 it's true without further ado i'm joined today by destiny famous internet personality live streamer

00:01:39.260 and political commentator joining him is jasmine jafar the self-described hoe lawyer she does uh

00:01:47.440 porn and only fans we have lila rose she's the founder and president of the pro-life organization

00:01:54.100 live action and trent horn trent earned master's degrees in the fields of theology philosophy and

00:01:59.820 bioethics trent is an adjunct professor of apologetics at holy apostles college and he is

00:02:05.100 the author of nine books welcome everybody thank you brian so uh we originally planned to have a

00:02:10.460 proper debate moderator who was going to join us uh unfortunately there was emergency and they

00:02:16.260 couldn't make it so this is going to be a very laissez-faire when it comes to the moderation

00:02:20.980 for the most part i'm just going to let you guys talk the topic of today's debate is sex work bad

00:02:28.500 for society and i think a good jumping off point if you can each one by one summarize your position

00:02:35.180 on this topic starting with destiny and then jasmine and then lila and then trent also we ought to define

00:02:40.960 for each other in the audience what is meant by the term sex work i mean sex work strikes me as a

00:02:46.420 sort of nebulous vague term meaning anything from taking non-nude lingerie photos all the way to selling

00:02:52.260 five dollar blowjobs in the back lot of a 7-eleven so uh go ahead starting with you destiny yeah i think

00:02:59.900 when we ask if uh sex work is good or bad for society i think it's important to recognize that

00:03:03.860 there are forms of entertainment that we can consume that aren't necessarily like good but they

00:03:08.040 don't necessarily do a bad um it's just a matter of whether or not consuming some things for

00:03:12.220 entertainment purposes is like a thing we want to defend in society i think broadly speaking we do

00:03:16.240 we would say that like video games for instance aren't necessarily good but i don't know if we

00:03:20.220 would call them bad as long as they're enjoyed in an appropriate environment with an appropriate

00:03:24.120 level of consumption um so i think as long as we say that people want to buy sex work and people

00:03:28.540 want to sell sex work and if it can be done so in a way that is safe to both parties and we can't see

00:03:33.160 any like clear or obvious damage to society then i think that that transaction ought to be protected

00:03:38.260 and i think i would say like all other forms of entertainment we would say it's a good thing in

00:03:41.440 society yeah so i think uh sex is the drive everybody has and there's always going to be a

00:03:48.520 demand for consensual sexual services and there's always going to be people who are willing to supply

00:03:52.520 it i think a society that grants its citizens certain civil liberties and freedoms like the ability

00:03:58.140 like sexual autonomy and the freedom to control their own sex lives is better for society

00:04:03.420 um and i don't think adding money into that should really change anything um i think anytime we're

00:04:08.660 addressing whether something is good for society we have to think of how society would look if we

00:04:12.700 were to try to come in and remove that thing um and i think for one there isn't at least compelling

00:04:18.400 evidence that sex work or porn or any of these things are harmful enough that we should try to do

00:04:22.780 that especially if we compare it to other things that we allow and also um the times that people

00:04:29.080 have tried to come in and restrict those things um haven't shown to be very successful

00:04:32.700 oh let's start with okay and apologies for any coughing i've had a cough for three weeks and it

00:04:39.820 still isn't going away but anyways thanks for um your patience with me if i start to cough

00:04:43.740 i think that sex is an amazing and beautiful thing and it has a design to it uh it has a purpose to it

00:04:51.480 and i think to ignore that design is to live in an unreality that brings harm to oneself and other

00:04:56.900 people and sex can do two beautiful things it can create intimacy and bonding and pleasure which is

00:05:01.500 amazing between two people and it can also bring life into the world and i think there's a ton of

00:05:06.760 social data that shows that when you divorce sex from its meaning and you treat it like it's

00:05:11.640 meaninglessness but like it has no meaning a hedonistic view of sex leads to a lot of social ills and harm

00:05:18.600 it's destructive to the people that behave as if it's meaningless and it's also destructive to people

00:05:23.580 that um are also hit by the consequences of that behavior like a spouse in a marriage whose partner

00:05:30.400 is using porn and they're deeply unhappy or the children of that marriage or um you know promoting

00:05:36.380 sex work leading to uh sexual behaviors that can come bring life into the world and then you have this

00:05:41.780 life that uh doesn't have committed parents who are going to raise them and love them so i think we have

00:05:47.180 to live in reality that sex has meaning it has consequences it's a beautiful and powerful thing

00:05:51.900 and a society that orders its self to recognize that meaning um is going to be a healthier happier

00:05:58.920 society and that's what i want for everyone yeah i would say that excuse me i'm the one coughing

00:06:05.000 i took it from you sorry sex is a very important thing i think everybody nearly everybody agrees that

00:06:12.440 sex is something that's really important but the problem that i have with sex work and that's a term

00:06:18.460 actually that i don't consider legitimate people other people want to use it that's fine uh but i don't

00:06:24.100 think that sex work exists any more than friend work exists sex is more than just a biological process

00:06:30.980 or an activity between people when sex is reduced to hedonistic in its meaning that sex is an activity

00:06:38.800 that one engages in for pleasure that does lead to bad things in society it leads to further degrading

00:06:46.820 sexual acts like when we look at popular forms of pornography on the internet based in violence degradation

00:06:53.140 uh scatological urine feces uh rape play that the human brain uh is rewired by seeing this kind of stuff

00:07:04.560 and this isn't just stuff on the margins either uh to look at what sex work does if it takes sex

00:07:10.900 and drains it of its meaning to make it hedonistic we also lose the principles that we need to show that

00:07:17.660 other depraved or disordered forms of sexuality are wrong or bad um i like destiny what you said about

00:07:24.660 video games but if i had to make a video game analogy i think most video games are actually good or

00:07:30.000 neutral there's a few outliers like let's say the call of duty if you back in 2009 there was the

00:07:35.920 level no russian where you could go around and you could shoot innocent people at an airport and that

00:07:40.060 was very controversial and most video games are not like that but if video games were like porn

00:07:44.760 some of the most popular games that people search for would have degrading acts of violence in it

00:07:49.740 towards you know just innocent people not zombies i think people would see that that's very bad for

00:07:54.640 the human person to degrade themselves in that way so i am concerned that pornography and prostitution

00:08:00.940 uh degrade sex from having a very important meaning and expression of love between person

00:08:06.860 persons and leads to an exploitation and problems in society if it's just a hedonistic view

00:08:12.680 that's our that's my view all right good debate guys but i do think it's important that we

00:08:21.420 to define that obviously like we said the term sex work is pretty broad here i would say

00:08:25.420 i define it into pornography and prostitution with a gray area obviously in between it's kind of hard

00:08:32.080 to determine but mostly this just involves monetizing the arousal of other people sure the

00:08:38.700 sexual arousal of other people so there you have to be making money and your intention is to sexually

00:08:44.140 arouse other people or bring them to climax you know obviously if you're engaged in a sex act

00:08:48.760 gotcha before we real quick before we dive into this um i think there's two really different ways

00:08:54.200 this conversation we go we can do both i think we should decide first do we want to talk about sex

00:08:58.620 work through the lens of the teleology of what we think sex ought to be for or do we want to talk

00:09:04.100 about like the impacts on society first i think both should be yeah but i think because they're both

00:09:09.020 very very different arguments so do we want to focus on the first one of like what sex ought to be

00:09:13.960 or i think we can talk about that because i think the big thing that's dividing us is that it is bad

00:09:19.040 to misuse sex sex is a very important thing okay and so if one misuses it this will tend to lead to

00:09:26.000 all kinds of social problems there's natural consequences to the misuse or the abuse of sex and

00:09:30.820 you can live in an unreality and sort of mitigate those natural consequences

00:09:34.840 um but it only goes so far and there are going to be casualties and so like a question i have is you

00:09:41.080 guys are saying like porn like it's been so bad for society what are some of these outcomes you've

00:09:45.780 seen since like the late 90s early 2000s when the internet you know became a thing you guys are saying

00:09:50.560 porn is now making society worse when in a lot of ways it seems like since the late to late 1990s and

00:09:57.040 early 2000s we have less cases of essay less child abuse abortion rates are down like 41 i'm not saying

00:10:04.060 this is because of porn but it doesn't seem like porn has turned everyone into these violent

00:10:08.680 people are having less sex we have less teen pregnancies all of that stuff so what well i

00:10:14.600 dispute the claim that the sexual assault can we say that or we just say sese that's fine yeah okay

00:10:20.780 i dispute the claim that sexual that porn leads directly to a reduction in sexual assault we have

00:10:26.600 to be careful to not do um after therefore because of um that porn becomes more prevalent what happens

00:10:34.460 after that if you look at statistics of sexual assault they have been declining since the 1990s

00:10:39.960 but since 2012 they have dramatically increased anyone who's watching this just google uh rape united

00:10:48.120 states 1990 to 2022 or rape uk sorry grape uh uk uh from 2000 so from 2002 to 2022 and you see a dramatic

00:10:59.880 rise like in the uk it's like from goes from 60 000 reported cases to 130 000 reported cases

00:11:06.140 from 2012 to 2017 what's driving that wait can i ask real quick actually because i just looked this

00:11:12.040 up and i noticed that what you said is exactly right from 1992 they fall right until 2012 and then

00:11:19.500 they spike they spike what happened in 2013 wasn't 2013 the start of the me too movement me too

00:11:26.020 movement started in 2017 with alissa was it 2017 yeah okay i thought about that too that that might

00:11:32.680 be now i think that when we talk about what causes things to happen in society it's rarely ever one

00:11:38.860 thing yeah yeah because people are complex so like why also there's a difficulty in assessing how many

00:11:45.680 rapes occur like it's not as hard to figure out how many murders occur because you just count the dead

00:11:51.560 bodies or how many cars are stolen you count the cars that are taken but rape many rapes are not

00:11:56.680 prosecuted or they're not reported yeah or but i think the number of allegations i do want to hear

00:12:02.240 lila your thoughts on that we see it going up but i think that one element that would make sense to see

00:12:07.820 that drive from the 2010s is that online pornography had a huge boost during this time period that we

00:12:14.780 have porn hub was started in 2007 and it explodes going through 2012 2015 on and if you're wondering

00:12:22.300 like the things that i'm concerned about you look at like porn hub from 2012 to like 2020 what are the

00:12:27.160 most popular terms being searched most popular terms are teen mom step mom this is not just like

00:12:35.720 your vanilla pornography people are looking for though i find it suspicious that porn hub isn't

00:12:39.800 reporting the teen search anymore uh so i think that that could be a part in there of that further

00:12:46.000 degradation of sexuality during that time period i think that's a very significant point that you

00:12:50.020 just raised about porn hub and the most popular search terms the reality is child sexual assault

00:12:54.400 material has proliferated in recent years with the rise of more internet uh spread of pornography and

00:13:00.380 the ease of use of the spread of pornography um pornography that is violent is increasing pornography

00:13:06.660 pornography that involves um minors is increasing uh so there's that world of that you know people

00:13:13.360 involved not usually those that have uh you know you can use the word addiction or compulsion around

00:13:18.060 pornography there's a need for it to be increasingly intense or violent or disordered in the sexual acts

00:13:25.800 that are being portrayed for them to find it fulfilling and so they have to continue on this like

00:13:30.480 porn use um journey that they're on and it leads to many other victims left in the wake of it like

00:13:36.360 children but another side of it too is the relational side for people that are trying to make families

00:13:42.200 because i think civilization is built on families families is where what we're born into it's where

00:13:46.960 we find our greatest meaning and worth um how we're formed as kids you know how we become good citizens

00:13:52.080 one day and how we discover love for the first time and today you know around 20 percent of couples

00:13:58.300 report that they experience conflict because of porn use of one of the partners like this is a

00:14:03.380 significant thing afflicting a lot of relationships and um one of the top rated things in divorce

00:14:09.120 settlements are the porn use of one of the partners so it's really damaging and i think the life

00:14:15.560 experience of many people i'm sure are listening to this podcast right now they know people everyone

00:14:20.020 knows someone who's been hurt by pornography so it's it's really um yeah i don't i don't think the

00:14:25.480 pleasure of orgasm balances out the the cons so the data i'm sure you guys when you were looking at porn

00:14:30.940 it's very mixed big medical consensus is that like this addiction and all that's not a thing when it

00:14:35.880 comes to couples it seems like when the couples are on the same page that it doesn't lead to negative

00:14:40.720 impacts it leads to that when there's one couple what do you mean by on the same page like when both

00:14:44.880 like if uh like in a in a couple if they don't care if the other person watches porn which is a lot

00:14:50.340 of couples then it doesn't seem to have these kind of do you think that's the majority i think it's a

00:14:55.200 lot of people do you think the majority of couples the the wife or the girlfriend doesn't mind

00:14:59.740 that's really hard to tell the majority of people i know it's like that maybe the majority of people

00:15:03.700 he knows and the majority of people you know it's the opposite so i don't know i do think in general

00:15:08.420 people don't see viewing pornography as like cheating do you think the majority of people

00:15:13.660 think that cheating is wrong though or even asking can i have cheating is wrong because it violates

00:15:18.840 your boundaries but if that's not violating your boundaries which it's not for a lot of people

00:15:22.900 then it doesn't seem to be having these negative that same do you think a majority of wives

00:15:27.260 would think that it's wrong for a husband to even ask if he should be allowed to cheat

00:15:32.040 that's not cheating is about violating boundaries but if he asked is it okay if i watch porn when

00:15:37.660 we're not together a lot of wives girlfriends would say yes but do you think a lot of the

00:15:42.180 girl wives and girlfriends saying yes are saying yes because they're really chill about it it's not

00:15:46.160 a big deal we don't care or they're saying yes because society is telling them you should say

00:15:50.220 what i was saying about the boundaries is is it okay for a husband to ask hey can we renegotiate

00:15:54.700 these boundaries yeah of course it's okay so there's nothing wrong with a husband saying hey

00:15:59.160 because i think many people that would would wives girlfriends lots of you would say

00:16:04.900 no that's wrong that you would even ask that's that's just not okay to do you don't ask for

00:16:10.240 something like that some people and i think for some people that's not the case i don't know exactly

00:16:15.460 percentages but the majority like exactly if i'm talking about like people i know this is all i have

00:16:19.300 anecdotal evidence unless there's some study done on this is a lot of people like don't care

00:16:23.480 so i think there's a bit of a myth of this idea that well if my boundary is that it's okay to share

00:16:29.340 you sexually with someone else even though we're in a supposedly committed relationship i think there's

00:16:33.960 a mythology that as long as there's consent between the two adults then it's okay for one or both to

00:16:40.480 cheat as long as they know and they're okay but you're using the word cheat when we're not talking

00:16:44.840 about cheat i'm saying not have sexual fidelity so have sexual experiences relationships with other

00:16:49.860 people whether that's through a screen or in life in real life and you know there are studies that

00:16:54.360 show um you know i have one right here that shows that married people who more frequently view porn

00:16:59.740 even if it's together even if it's like we're consenting this is a thing we're doing together

00:17:03.860 are more likely to experience marital dissatisfaction down the line than couples that do not look at

00:17:08.980 porn together so pornography has a pernicious effect even on consenting couples who are saying we're doing

00:17:14.860 this together it's so great that was that was a longitudinal study based on the social science

00:17:19.060 survey with 2 000 people it's not just like a correlative effect so even if even if in our minds

00:17:24.760 we rationalize and we live in the unreality of this is not affecting me i can have this open marriage or i

00:17:30.260 can have this open relationship and my partner can look at porn or have another sexual relationship

00:17:34.160 it still affects you in the real world and it still affects your long-term uh potential for happiness

00:17:40.900 and fidelity not just fidelity but happiness and um fulfillment in the relationship and so you can

00:17:46.960 we can tell ourselves a theory or a myth of like hey it's going to be okay i'm cool with this but in

00:17:52.320 reality it doesn't work that way in the long run but see like with a lot of this i'm not sure if you

00:17:55.840 guys are really frustrated looking up this stuff too because so many studies conflict when it comes

00:17:59.900 to porn and viewing and it's like women you view pornography report higher sexual satisfaction when they

00:18:05.200 view it with a partner in fact the data on women well why would that be jasmine why would that be

00:18:10.200 what do you mean why would that be well you just said women report higher satisfaction if the porn is

00:18:13.980 being viewed with a partner because at least they feel like i'm not being 100% cheated on in this

00:18:18.280 moment no i don't think that's it i think you're just putting your framework on everybody else like

00:18:22.680 i'm a woman too i don't care if my partner watches porn it's not just me trying to satisfy him it's not

00:18:27.300 just me being like and i think a lot of people you have to separate being like being with another

00:18:32.020 partner physically versus porn because i think the numbers there would be vastly different on who's okay

00:18:37.120 if their partner when they're not around is watching porn versus who's okay with them sleeping

00:18:41.520 with another person in real life i think you're going to get widely different opinions there from

00:18:45.940 girlfriends wives women on whether that's okay or not i would say when we look at the studies like

00:18:50.540 for example in 2023 engel camp et al published a study in the journal of sex and marital therapy

00:18:55.680 and it did a quantitative analysis and the most common themes among couples where the man views

00:19:01.800 pornography is that the woman is glad that he told him that he talked about it openly uh but disapproves

00:19:08.800 or is allowing the husband to look at pornography but does not want to hear about it so i think you

00:19:15.020 would say that only a minority of women are positively in favor of this it's either negative

00:19:19.880 or ambivalent well and i think the point is the longitudinal study you mentioned and i mentioned is

00:19:25.200 that even those that say they're in favor of it and are like watching it as a couple have worse

00:19:30.320 outcomes down the line and i think that's part of the you know the point here is that even if you

00:19:36.020 you're like you're you're in a very unique situation you're making your living doing this

00:19:39.480 thing right and so in your mind of course it's going to be great i know you're going to defend

00:19:43.260 it and say it's going to be great but the reality is even people that are defending it or saying it's

00:19:48.300 fine in my marriage down the line don't have the best outcome also to be fair too real quick

00:19:53.600 because you talked about this in a career you guys are both ideologically you could never change

00:19:57.320 your position on this that's completely not true of course aren't you both religious all the studies

00:20:01.020 show that i i i chose to be catholic and i can choose to reject my faith sure but if like the

00:20:06.000 research no one's forcing me to be catholic yeah but she could also change her career too right my

00:20:10.040 point is that even if all the data just one at a time we can change our mind on empirical questions

00:20:15.580 about whether a majority of people feel satisfaction in something you can't use a a social science survey to

00:20:23.120 determine whether something is moral or immoral yes i was only pushing back on the claim that like

00:20:27.600 because it's her job she has to defend it outcomes though because what i'm trying to explain here is

00:20:32.380 not my point here is that you can say and one can say i'm comfortable with this i'm fine with this

00:20:39.020 it's okay in my marriage or my relationship but my point is the social data shows that people who are

00:20:43.820 comfortable with open relationships or pornography in their relationship have worse outcomes down the

00:20:48.220 line the people have the worst sorry who have the worst outcomes when it comes to viewing

00:20:52.100 pornography or people who have moral incongruence with it that's what all there's been a huge

00:20:56.380 meta-analysis where they looked at the number one determinant or the number one predictor of having

00:21:01.240 bad experiences with porn or quote-unquote porn addiction which the medical consensus is it's not

00:21:05.580 a thing is moral incongruence and being religious is one of the biggest predictors of that so i agree

00:21:11.020 porn is really bad for catholics i just don't agree that it's bad for everybody but my point here is that

00:21:15.680 even people who find a way to morally rationalize the use of pornography or whatever it is down the

00:21:22.820 line at large outcomes are worse for open marriages but those that kind of argument is like saying well

00:21:27.960 gambling addiction isn't really real because the people who are most upset about gambling are only

00:21:33.060 the people who are upset about losing money the people who don't care about losing money well

00:21:37.140 they're not really that psychologically disturbed about gambling a lot but maybe they should be worried

00:21:41.720 about that just like people should be worried about what porn is doing to them when it desensitizes

00:21:45.920 their brain and it makes them think that i need more and more hits and more and more disturbing

00:21:50.300 pornography to get off but the difference is that with um and that's why the dsm-5 accepts gambling

00:21:55.100 they've said multiple times they've rejected porn multiple times because you can't make a link to

00:21:59.200 how much people they include hypersexuality under impulse control not in the dsm-5 that's in the world

00:22:04.940 uh health organization yeah it's a compulsion but not an addiction but is a compulsion a good thing

00:22:11.100 well it's hypersexuality is a compulsion to masturbate or is it a compulsion to have sexual

00:22:14.120 experiences it's i mean either way is a compulsion that you are at the mercy of and that often brings

00:22:21.040 a lot of very small percentage no but i don't see i don't see the difference there that if you can be

00:22:26.680 in a situation where i think gambling and porn they're very similar in their compulsivity that

00:22:32.860 there are lots of people who can gamble i gamble and i didn't lose the house lots of people can gamble

00:22:37.980 but there's a subset when they gamble it turns their brain on too much and they need to get more

00:22:42.900 and more highs from it so they gamble more and more and more and just even seeing the slot machine

00:22:47.540 it does something to their brain and they're in a situation where i don't want to be gambling

00:22:51.860 i feel bad i don't want to be doing this but they just can't stop similar thing with porn there's lots

00:22:56.820 of people who watch porn and they don't turn into maniacs or anything like that but there's a subset

00:23:00.660 where it lights up their brains and they know i don't want to be doing this i know it's just killing

00:23:05.680 my marriage my wife feels awful knowing that i go and look at this stuff i feel bad but i can't

00:23:11.160 stop don't those seem like similar levels of compulsion it may seem that way but the scientific

00:23:15.820 consensus right the dsm-5 statement is that other excessive behavioral patterns such as internet

00:23:20.520 gaming have also been described but the research on these and other behavioral syndromes is less

00:23:24.320 clear they they make it akin to exercise addiction shopping addiction and sex addiction the data is just

00:23:30.140 not there the point is that it affects you the way gambling does that's not me saying it that's what the

00:23:34.300 the dsm-5 is not an infallible bible for everyone you have other studies for example love et al published

00:23:41.660 a series a study on the neuroscientific foundation of pornography addiction and that was a 2015 article

00:23:48.040 and they a meta-analysis and they do link it to other addictions and other compulsions so i think if

00:23:55.620 people just look at it you just take a bird's eye view the person who feels bad gambling and can't stop

00:24:01.560 the person who feels bad shopping and can't stop and the person who looks at porn or sees prostitutes

00:24:06.920 and feels bad and can't stop it all seems pretty similar to the difference is that with porn they've

00:24:11.560 done multiple studies where it's like somebody who has positive attitudes toward it versus someone who

00:24:15.860 has a negative attitude so they're watching the same amount and they're having the same you they

00:24:19.720 haven't been able those are short-term studies though but it's so that all the data is you can tell

00:24:25.060 yourself again you can live in unreality and tell yourself you know this sexual act of infidelity i know you

00:24:30.480 don't call it infidelity because someone consented to it but me going and you know being polyamorous

00:24:34.900 or me going and having multiple sexual experiences outside of my marriage or my relationship or me

00:24:39.020 going and looking at pornography or using pornography you can tell yourself and experience short-term

00:24:43.380 pleasure you absolutely no i think a lot of wives would say that would say that if their husband is

00:24:48.500 chatting with you on a live cam they would say that's cheating you think a lot of wives would feel

00:24:52.940 that i don't know how many wives find me for their husbands also wait hold on yeah when we when we talk

00:24:57.960 about like cheating or murder when we talk about like murder murder is clearly unjustified killing

00:25:02.960 right where we talk about murder i'm just saying that the word murder means unjustified killing it's

00:25:07.620 baked into the there's such a justified murder when you use the word cheating then you're begging

00:25:12.460 the question of course it's wrong but the question is whether or not these behaviors can

00:25:16.520 be engaged in like consensual ways right so to say like oh well that takes us back to what is sex

00:25:20.800 for that might maybe that's fine yeah we can go back that way i'm just going right ahead yeah

00:25:24.700 i'm just saying that you can't just keep calling it cheating over and over and over again because

00:25:28.700 you're begging the question you're loading in with the word cheating is baked into this idea that a

00:25:32.420 that a boundary is being violated or that a non-consensual activity is happening and that

00:25:36.640 might be your position and that might be your opinion but you can't have that perspective on two other

00:25:40.800 people's boundaries if they say well in our relationship we're allowed to watch porn it's

00:25:44.380 inappropriate for you to call that cheating a different point in response to jasmine well no no hold on

00:25:47.860 i'm just being clear because jasmine countered contradicted that point and then you tried to explain why well

00:25:51.420 actually it is always infidelity when infidelity again has baked into it that you're tautologically

00:25:56.360 trying to define away the argument which is whether or not you can engage in these behaviors

00:25:59.920 in a healthy way and you're saying well obviously you can't because it's infidelity it's like well

00:26:02.140 you're begging the question so if we're going to talk about the behaviors we can but you can't

00:26:05.200 call them all you can define the terms as you please i think my point here with well hold on

00:26:09.040 what i'm defining is i please we all agree that that's what those words mean every single person

00:26:12.340 watching infidelity and cheating means that you are doing something in contradiction to what your

00:26:16.100 partner wants we all agree with that and we all agree that those are bad specific to sexual behavior

00:26:20.160 but everybody here agrees that infidelity and cheating is bad right yeah okay so we all agree

00:26:24.420 with that so then what so then why say like well this is cheating we already agree that it's bad

00:26:27.500 whether or not it is disagree on the point that yes i think it is infidelity or cheating so you

00:26:32.540 think that i have sex outside of two people are in a relationship and they say that hey it's okay

00:26:37.160 if we watch porn you think they're still cheating on each other i think that is being unfaithful to

00:26:40.900 each other yes okay okay so she has a different view on yeah i understand definition and we can agree

00:26:45.500 to disagree on that at this point but my larger point that i was trying to make with you jasmine

00:26:49.320 or you know kind of get to the bottom of was yes you can say i'm feeling great about this i just

00:26:54.540 had an orgasm it feels great i'm so happy with this you know pornography i just consumed or this

00:26:59.520 you know webcam person i just spoke with or whatever or had this you know relationship with or whatever it

00:27:03.800 is um but in the long term these things don't serve the person or society so we can we can actually

00:27:10.240 agree with you that hedonism feels good in the moment like i don't think trent would even disagree

00:27:14.920 at least for the person taking part in the hedonism they might feel sick deep in their conscience

00:27:18.960 but i think in the moment physically they're going to feel good and that's the temptation of hedonism

00:27:23.400 right it's like it feels good of course i'm going to do it but that's not true i mean women who view

00:27:27.160 pornography report higher sexual satisfaction improved communication about sex with their

00:27:30.700 partner greater comfort with their own sexual well greater comfort with their own sexual orientation

00:27:35.460 more frequent and higher quality is that is that easier time is that a long-term study following

00:27:39.780 there's multiple studies almost all the data on women in pornography in the old days it used to

00:27:44.500 give them negative body image issues but since like people like me you know what you're welcome

00:27:47.940 or like more amateur porn started coming out actually women reports see feeling better about

00:27:51.900 their bodies there's a huge study about women feeling much better about their vulvas now because

00:27:55.380 they're seeing different types of vulvas represented so you think pornographic accounts online like

00:28:00.520 there's a lot of instagram accounts for example that are kind of some soft core

00:28:04.020 pornography are making women at large and young girls at large feel good about their bodies

00:28:08.700 pornography there's studies about pornography and women who view pornography because a lot of women

00:28:13.600 watch like amateur porn more so than the mainstream studio porn now and you're seeing all different

00:28:17.880 kinds of body types so that study that was done on women who now feel like oh i actually feel better

00:28:22.320 about my vulva i feel better about my body when we compare that to women who viewed porn in the past

00:28:26.400 but when studio porn was the only kind of porn out we're seeing a big difference yeah i mean at large

00:28:31.540 sexual objectification of women online who and who is the majority who views

00:28:36.140 especially certain body parts has been detrimental to young girls men view porn more but women also do

00:28:41.120 view it sure i pretty i don't i don't disagree with that but i think we we just still need to go back to just the idea of

00:28:46.220 our my argument i think we are argument that why pornography and prostitution is bad for society is that it encourages this

00:28:55.120 this false view about what sex is for that leads to all of these kinds of bad consequences

00:29:00.580 wait wait also wait real quick can i run through some of these i'm taking notes okay okay so real

00:29:05.240 quick i'm just like a from top to bottom so well why don't we go back and forth yeah sure yeah yeah

00:29:10.480 we can yeah i just want a chance to go back and forth on something so i heard a lot of points

00:29:12.860 i'm about having to jump in a lot of these um on the first one so in 2013 the fbi redefined

00:29:18.420 rape to include all forms of penetration on somebody including like digital penetration

00:29:22.120 so that largely explains like the huge gap in numbers there i don't know if you were trying

00:29:26.060 to imply that in 2013 there was a spike that happened due to pornography or due to some other

00:29:28.920 reason i'm saying it i'm saying that's certainly plausible it's a part of it i don't and you don't

00:29:32.740 have enough evidence to say that that explains all of the increase no but there was a massive

00:29:36.880 redefinition it also wouldn't explain the increase at the same time in england and you i don't know

00:29:41.400 about the increase in england i don't know about the increase in england but i feel like if the numbers

00:29:45.260 dramatically jumped in 2013 it's strange that you didn't search for the answer for why they jumped and just

00:29:48.820 assumed because it fits the narrative it must be pornography or whatever

00:29:51.660 when a redefining of when a redefining of rape would be a really big reason why the numbers

00:29:55.700 might change for instance if you're familiar with sweden's uh sexual assault uh statistics

00:29:59.520 relating to immigration everything like the swedish redefinition of a lot of these crimes is a reason

00:30:03.540 why some of these numbers jump so i think anytime you see a huge chunk of the data i think if you're

00:30:06.440 inquisitive you'll usually ask like oh well i wonder why the data changed yeah but definitely there's

00:30:10.300 also been meta-analysis of porn consumption that shows that uh many studies that show the link between

00:30:16.300 porn use and keep in mind a lot of porn today some studies say 88 of porn today involves

00:30:22.260 violence or aggressive acts i don't believe that there's a link between

00:30:26.160 wait wait when you say violence or aggressive acts what does that mean

00:30:28.620 um it involves you know i mean at the extreme simulation of no no you said 88 i watch a lot

00:30:35.260 of porn i don't know how much point is violent or aggressive i'm just curious what counts as an

00:30:38.340 aggressive act 88 percent of porn is aggressive forceful causing uh pain or or discomfort to the

00:30:44.640 person that's being involved in the sexual act so that's one that was that was a 2010 study another

00:30:50.360 one that was published by vera gray 2021 in the british journal of criminology said that it put it

00:30:57.140 at one in eight had acts of violence that would be considered violence like under you know things like

00:31:04.200 uh like uh but for example binding four limbs and penetration gagging so i could buy the one in

00:31:10.780 eight the one in eight my first women are the ones that are disproportionately actually seeking that

00:31:14.560 stuff out so is that also just to please they're also disproportionately i would say i mean hold on

00:31:19.760 just a sec destiny you wanted to go and then lila yeah yeah i just wanted to go ahead so i could

00:31:23.840 believe the one in eight number the 88 there's no chance that that's true that's not of all pornography

00:31:27.940 it's of the 300 most common sure i'm just saying 88 of all pornography being violent unless you're

00:31:33.280 defining like oral sex is violent there's no shot that the number is that high that's just it's of

00:31:36.940 the most popular that's why on that's why on porn hub you're having teens and then you're having you

00:31:43.080 know step you know step parents involved or stepmom involved i think uh you're increasingly i think

00:31:48.540 urinating urinating and ejaculating on somebody's face i think that's violent and degrading i understand

00:31:53.560 what you're saying but to the vast majority of normal human beings urinating on somebody's face is

00:31:57.660 far different than ejaculating somebody's face maybe in the catholic world that's those are similar

00:32:02.360 things but in the ordinary world those are two completely and totally separate acts i think

00:32:05.700 most i think most people in the regular world don't would consider that utterly degrading those

00:32:11.860 i'm saying those two things are different you want to classify both them as degrading that's fine

00:32:16.460 why are they different because i don't know how much into detail but urinating on somebody's face

00:32:21.940 the kink of water sports is considered to be generally more extreme there's far fewer people that are into

00:32:27.240 it and you're involving non-sexual fluids now in like a sexual sense that's just considered a more

00:32:31.740 hardcore type of why if anything urine is probably a more sterile liquid and just because fewer people

00:32:39.760 do it doesn't mean it's more extreme i'm sure there's fewer people who do like star trek cosplay

00:32:44.060 porn but that doesn't mean it's more extreme than others just because it's minority i think that's

00:32:47.560 just you're probably considered more extreme it's not an intuition it's because generally the further

00:32:51.820 you get away from things that are uh less directly involved with sex and then like the more

00:32:58.320 uncomfortable those things tend to make people the more we would classify those things as being

00:33:01.840 kind of like extreme i think it's like a bro i mean i don't know if i'm sure we could have a huge

00:33:05.840 debate on like is this is bukkake porn considered extreme or is it just like a hardcore kink or but

00:33:09.900 like we can get into i'm just saying in general if you look the number of people into a kink like

00:33:13.520 water sports or you mentioned like scatology like stuff like that versus water you're talking about

00:33:18.900 is that just urinating on others or is it other other urinating on people yeah or any i think

00:33:24.060 anything involving p i'm not sure i don't okay maybe brian can fill us in more on because i like

00:33:28.440 because that that's just euphemism i enjoy water sports i don't enjoy that well that's what it's

00:33:32.240 called no i don't care you know i mean people can come up with all this sort this sort of stuff to

00:33:36.620 smooth over you know what is actually i'm just trying to give an accurate accounting of what of how

00:33:42.260 you refer to these things if you're looking them up or trying to go ahead did you want to ask

00:33:45.540 anything else um yeah i reject this idea of like well as pornography increases uh child sex

00:33:51.260 material increases therefore that's a fact though that's fine that it's a fact but what i notice is

00:33:56.120 oftentimes with porn to try to refute like the central point people will point to a negative

00:34:00.740 outcome that might be increasing and pretend that that counts as a refutation of the single point

00:34:04.320 a statement that i can make that's not what we did though destiny that's exactly what you're doing

00:34:07.620 you're saying that as pornography increases child sexual material might increase which means it's an

00:34:12.920 attack against pornography but i would say it's it's a form of pornography let me finish my statement

00:34:17.460 what i would say it is a form of pornography literally the increase of anything involving

00:34:21.700 say children playing video games necessarily increases the exposure of them to people looking

00:34:26.420 to abuse children that doesn't necessarily mean that online video games or children playing online

00:34:30.040 video games are bad it just means you have to control for the negative outcome of people abusing

00:34:33.360 people playing online video games same thing with pornography it's not an argument against pornography

00:34:36.780 if some people might abuse it in a way there might be some people that actually record actual

00:34:40.640 sexual assault that's not an argument against pornography it's an argument against people doing that

00:34:43.900 bad thing it is an argument of the most commonly searched for terms are things like teen barely

00:34:48.700 legal and they're constantly searched over and over it's the most popular thing which people

00:34:53.100 aren't doing with like video games i mean here's the here's something well something here's the theory

00:34:57.020 that i that i think that the social data proves very clearly and this is the this is the point that

00:35:03.760 when we disorder sex when we divorce sex from love fidelity commitment family you know like the whole

00:35:11.500 project of marriage i'm gonna you know sex can bring life into the world if we do bring a life into the

00:35:16.400 world we're gonna stick together love each other build a family together when you take sex out of

00:35:20.820 that context out of the context of love and marriage and you put in the context of my my goal my orgasm what

00:35:26.920 i want right um at whatever cost i can pay provided someone else consents right it's not just i think

00:35:34.760 that person that will suffer and the other people engage directly in that that will suffer but it is

00:35:39.140 children and so you said well yes okay there's a proliferation of child sexual assault material yeah

00:35:44.100 yeah but that's not saying porn is responsible for that that is a form of the porn that's being

00:35:49.000 created and consumed at large in our society so to say that children are somehow unscathed by the

00:35:54.660 proliferation of porn i think is totally untrue destiny that's fine and in addition i'll just say

00:36:00.460 one other thing the flip side of this we've debated on this before trent has as well um sexual uh hedonism

00:36:07.780 at large in addition leads to what we have today which is abortion on demand you mentioned abortion

00:36:15.080 rates are so low they're actually very high there are nearly a million a year they're lower since

00:36:19.100 when porn with the wide um like availability of porn it's gone down a lot so i'm just curious

00:36:25.480 because you guys are saying but oh my gosh there's all this violent stuff now i'm looking at the data

00:36:29.440 there's nothing linking porn to increased violence is there actually a lot of studies that link the

00:36:34.280 wide availability of pornography to less violence i have three studies right here today we found that

00:36:39.080 in the czech republic in denmark three or four decades ago it was find a playboy magazine or go to an

00:36:44.800 adult video store today today porn is everywhere so why are we not seeing this proliferation of

00:36:51.280 violence and all these terrible things we are seeing a lot of those are all we're seeing a lot of social

00:36:55.820 ills when there were just those playboy magazines we had way more of that stuff than we do now with

00:37:00.240 pornography so you're saying we had so is your argument that we had less child sexual assault

00:37:05.840 material child abuse has declined so you saying are you saying that child sexual assault material can be

00:37:12.400 created without child abuse i'm saying that they're that that like child abuse cases all of those have

00:37:17.760 gone down i'm also saying that incorrect std rates have gone this is according to that's incorrect

00:37:21.840 so that's incorrect okay well what what data do you have that show your your argument is that

00:37:26.820 that the proliferation of porn somehow that has led to less i didn't say it's led to i'm not saying

00:37:32.540 causation so what's your argument my argument here is that if porn became widely available and it's so

00:37:37.860 violent and it's so terrible then how come we're not seeing those outcomes why is there a proliferation

00:37:42.400 of child sexual assault material on the internet and it increases because we have the internet now

00:37:46.720 we didn't have the internet before but when we since we've had the internet so you've had less we've

00:37:51.320 had less abortion less syphilis less gonorrhea less teen sex less teen birth rates have fallen 33

00:37:56.860 according to the cdc uh essay has declined and then so your so your argument is that child sexual assault

00:38:03.620 material is not porn or what is your argument my argument i'm not even talking about sexual

00:38:07.520 assaultment child sexual assault what are you my argument here is that when porn became widely

00:38:12.260 available we didn't see an increase in violence in fact i have lots of studies here that show that

00:38:16.860 once porn became widely available like for instance when did porn become widely available in the united

00:38:22.100 states around early 2000s that's what i read so i i think i i think i can understand the argument

00:38:28.660 you're making but i don't think it bears out for example with divorce rates as an example

00:38:32.620 as i said earlier one of the the second highest most quoted thing when it comes to divorce today

00:38:38.400 is the pornography use of one of the partners but divorce rates have also gone down since then

00:38:42.860 uh but overall they've gone up over the last not since the 40 50 years since porn has become

00:38:48.080 available they have not gone up they've actually gone down i since the early 2000s one reason they

00:38:53.560 go down is people are choosing not to marry that's fine but what i'm saying and i don't think

00:38:57.140 they're choosing not i don't think they're not choosing to get married because porn is available

00:39:00.120 but you have no link to that my question is but hold on i think it's a fact it is a fact

00:39:04.700 that the sexual revolution which took place in this country mid 20th century which opened the

00:39:10.420 floodgates of pornography first with you know playboy magazine and then later on with the internet

00:39:15.380 which opened the floodgates to you know no fault divorce more divorce swinger culture open marriages

00:39:21.140 all of this stuff abortion all of this stuff that those all things those evil those social ills

00:39:26.580 all mushroomed together and they still exist in large qualities in our society today together

00:39:33.820 because when you treat sex just as orgasm or as something that as an adult i'm entitled to as long

00:39:39.940 as i consent and someone else is consenting and sex has no other morality around it you are opening

00:39:45.680 the door and we have the doors wide open to divorce to abortion to a lot of the unhappiness that we're

00:39:51.700 seeing in relationships so you said all the social data though agrees with you but i'm pointing out

00:39:56.260 that abortion rates have fallen 41 percent since the night so but abortion rates since porn has been

00:40:01.040 entered into the mainstream yes has gone up over the last 50 years dramatically but since no it became

00:40:07.640 widely available in the late 90s so the cdc abortion rates have fallen 41 percent since the 1990s

00:40:13.360 it people look it up this is the cdc that's saying this but you don't think that porn is the only

00:40:18.320 reason i don't think that but my question to you is is that if it's such a terrible thing where are

00:40:23.460 these terrible outcomes and i'm trying to say that i'm trying to say that porn whether it was the

00:40:28.280 playboy porn or it's the vastly available internet porn terrible outcomes so you think they're the same

00:40:33.240 i think that they are part of the same problem which is divorcing meaning from sex and welcoming

00:40:40.340 putting arms around hedonistic culture that breaks down families and breaks down marriages and i'm

00:40:45.260 saying that in the last 50 years in this country we have seen unprecedented divorce 50 years unprecedented

00:40:50.840 unprecedented abortion we've seen unprecedented stis the sexual revolutions harm are we talking about

00:40:58.460 the sexual revolution or porn because i'm not talking about 50 years i'm talking about since porn became

00:41:02.580 widely available you guys are saying and all these terrible things teen mom porn so violent where are the

00:41:08.800 outcomes that show that this is such an harm because i'm not seeing that i have three studies

00:41:13.220 here actually there's a lot of evidence that porn has a cathartic effect do you think it's bad jasmine

00:41:17.240 that the average first stage of exposure to pornography is 11 years old i don't think that's ideal but i

00:41:22.560 don't know it's not asked i said is it bad yeah i think it's bad but i'm not seeing that it's so bad

00:41:26.920 that it's leading to such terrible outcomes because it's not where are these outcomes what happens when

00:41:31.340 children are exposed when children are exposed to pornography actually there's also a lot of conflicting data on

00:41:36.420 that a lot of the data on this is really frustrating because it's really is it i have studies here well

00:41:41.120 we're living in it not but jasmine part of the reason for that is we're living in a social

00:41:44.920 wait hold on hold on one second i i want to know is it bad when 11 year olds their first exposure to

00:41:50.560 pornography i'm saying that's a bad thing yeah it's a bad thing in the sense why is it why is it bad what

00:41:55.960 does it do to them i don't it's like not they're not old enough their their prefrontal cortex isn't

00:42:00.780 developed enough to be able to look at that and realize what's real what's not real how sex is supposed to go

00:42:05.400 so i don't think porn is a great way how is sex supposed to go probably not like the right if

00:42:10.300 you're on porn hub watching like eight people gangbang someone they're gonna think that that

00:42:13.920 is normal that's not normal not okay hold on wait okay i think we talk about how sex is supposed to

00:42:19.060 go okay i think we have to build a constructive case for what are different ways that we can view

00:42:22.760 sex um you guys seem to be really happy to say that like sex ought to be this or society's destroyed

00:42:27.600 sex or blah blah blah blah blah i think that you can posit a separate argument that sex is actually

00:42:31.860 something that the body is capable of experiencing that is a lot of fun and we've evolved beyond the

00:42:36.140 need to view sex as just a tool or a facility to pump out children and instead can view it as a way

00:42:41.200 to bond with people or have fun or enjoy recreationally i think that we have the tools today to enjoy that

00:42:45.360 because you've got things to protect or cure stds we've got ways to prevent pregnancies we've got

00:42:49.600 different types of birth controls i think that it's okay that society has taken on a different view

00:42:53.640 of sex just like we've taken on a different view of women working jobs or a different view of

00:42:58.100 what kind of clothes can we wear because we have air conditioning or a different view of what are

00:43:01.760 the hours that we can be awake where we can travel i think it's just natural that different things will

00:43:05.040 evolve over time that will view different things yeah we can view things differently uh based on our

00:43:10.020 way of engaging with them according to the gobacker institute for women that get abortions 50 of them

00:43:15.560 in the month that they got pregnant were using contraception so when you kind of say well now we have

00:43:20.400 these technologies that can somehow sort of blunt the con the natural consequences i'm sorry wait what was

00:43:26.620 what was that supposed to refute so what's that supposed to refute is you're saying that we have

00:43:30.420 all of these powers now to change the way we engage with sex yes the way we engage was anything i said

00:43:34.580 incorrect um i think it's completely it's fully incorrect okay do you think that contraception

00:43:39.320 reduces the likelihood well no no let's one stat at a time let me finish no no no no hold on i didn't

00:43:43.080 even get to ask my question i didn't even barely talk for two sentences and you wanted to cut me off

00:43:46.740 with the thing about abortion so i'm going to ask you do you think contraception is effective at

00:43:49.800 dramatically reducing the rates of of getting impregnated i think that at large contraception

00:43:54.960 has led to the mindset a contraceptive i'm going to ask the same question again when you finish this

00:43:59.180 i think that over time it actually increases it actually leads to more abortion okay do you think

00:44:05.360 that contraception is effective at preventing pregnancies it can in the short term but over

00:44:09.540 time it leads to more abortion really do you have any evidence that somebody that is on so you're

00:44:13.500 saying so you're saying you have a study right now that shows that somebody on contraception on

00:44:16.500 average has more children over their lifetime than somebody that doesn't use contraception no what i'm

00:44:20.000 saying okay so then you don't have any evidence i don't know i don't i don't you're well no because

00:44:23.900 you're giving no no you're giving me a lot of like socially constructed opinions you have no data for

00:44:27.680 based on your presumptions of how you think that sex should operate religiously but i reject those

00:44:31.860 things so obviously we know that we know that we are not making a case that sex ought to be done

00:44:38.100 religiously or ought to be done in this particular way we are just saying that the view that's that

00:44:43.620 prostitution and pornography require which is that sex is just a hedonistic activity nobody why does it

00:44:49.820 require that because it would be wrong if okay well what what what would you how would you answer

00:44:54.980 the question it can have many purposes i think that when i go to a massage parlor i'm paying you know

00:44:59.840 80 bucks to get a massage right that can just be a person giving a massage with a partner having a

00:45:04.080 partner rubbing your back or your neck that can feel like a lot more romantic so just because i go to

00:45:07.600 the massage pro doesn't mean i devalue the experience with like a partner no what do you think it does

00:45:11.500 earlier you use the phrase sex work isn't real because sex for hire doesn't make sense it's like a friend

00:45:15.960 for hire what is a therapist can't you pay a therapist to review your problems with them

00:45:19.600 but here's the thing and once you stop paying a sex worker they stop having sex with you yeah

00:45:24.300 but the whole the whole point that's why it's called work yeah no because we don't more meaningful

00:45:29.240 than that of course it is more meaningful i would agree just like having a really good intimate

00:45:33.260 conversation with a friend is more meaningful than having an intimate conversation with a therapist

00:45:36.080 of course around so many different places only because i'm following you and your attention well

00:45:39.300 i i was trying to ask you made a so if sex work is so if sex work is just a skill it's something

00:45:46.000 that people enjoy yeah uh do there have to be is this something that only specialists cannot well

00:45:52.400 let's say for example so jasmine a lot of people do only fans they have other jobs like you're a

00:45:55.740 lawyer you have other jobs so you can have someone who's a masseuse and does only fans or a therapist

00:46:01.580 and does only fans right okay so you could be like a sex worker by night masseuse therapist

00:46:07.380 during the day would it be okay if they offered those sex services as a part of their day job

00:46:12.120 being a masseuse depends on what the day job is if it's like a lawyer or something or if it's like a

00:46:15.200 therapist probably not because you're violating like um an appropriate relationship to have with

00:46:19.580 somebody um but if it's like your auto mechanic and he also sells you like pictures of his dick

00:46:24.860 it's probably not as big of a deal let me give you another example so my my wife was a nurse at the

00:46:29.560 hospital so she worked with um neuro telemetry and people have you know brain injuries spine

00:46:34.540 injuries stuff like that and also older people and people who would need things like bathing and

00:46:40.100 cleaning okay so they need um you know to be clean including clean their peritoneum perineal care

00:46:46.020 so just like groin crotch but that kind of stuff sure and some of them would ask her and this would

00:46:51.020 also happen to other nurses hey while you're down there could you just like you know play with my

00:46:55.280 wee wee a little bit or you know masturbate me okay so let's say you have a nurse who is also

00:46:59.720 an only fans uh you know is a sex worker on the side should she be allowed to offer that

00:47:05.000 my understanding and i'm not a medical professional but my understanding is when you're making

00:47:08.460 decisions related to patient care if a patient under your care engaging in friendly or sexual

00:47:13.520 relationships with them can cause an inappropriate crossing of boundaries that compromises your

00:47:17.800 ability to deliver a good medical care so i would say that in the case where somebody's like a

00:47:21.300 therapist or a medical professional that's making decisions relating to your health care it's probably

00:47:24.780 not because you just related but why lawyers can't even accept hold on wait how did my relation of

00:47:29.340 therapy to friendship break anything that i just said because you're saying that you can't enter this

00:47:33.800 new dynamic of sexual relationship in a health care setting because that somehow violates the

00:47:38.660 health care setting what's being violated that's trans question why what did i just say was being

00:47:42.800 violated what is being violated i just said like three times i'll repeat it again it's compromising

00:47:47.220 your ability to deliver care but if the care is included let me ask you this question is is

00:47:51.940 sex work you wouldn't include sex work and health work together in care unless you're

00:47:56.700 because you know yeah so i mean we could we could invent a scenario that's true what if you're going

00:48:01.860 to a hospital and part of the care is my husband has issues with erectile dysfunction maybe part of

00:48:07.520 the health services is them jerking you off to make sure everything's working in that case you would

00:48:10.800 combine it would you agree or would you would you say it's so inappropriate you're wait i want to

00:48:14.360 answer for that would you if that is that'd be an appropriate combination of like you should go to

00:48:17.900 people to uh jerk you off no that's do you think it would be do you think us ignoring your

00:48:23.160 personal sexual views do you think it would be appropriate personal sexual view it's the view

00:48:26.600 that's actually been because for thousands of years by many millions so if so if you're going

00:48:30.800 to a hospital and they're trying to check you for a working sexual function them seeing if you can get

00:48:35.320 an erection that would be an inappropriate way for them to examine you i think if they are really

00:48:38.720 trying to determine you can if you're if you can get an erection there's a way and you're a married

00:48:43.460 person in a marriage what if you're not a married person what if you're single why would they need to

00:48:47.240 determine that because believe it or not there are people in this world that even when they're not

00:48:50.760 married they want to ensure that their sexual function is working and sex wait no wait i really

00:48:54.240 want to answer that i really want to answer that i don't i disagree with that you don't think your

00:48:57.620 sexual function is relevant if you're not married no i think it's relevant but i think that i don't

00:49:01.780 think it would be good care to go into a hospital there's there is okay wait i really want to answer

00:49:05.780 this so if you have problems with erectile dysfunction it would be inappropriate for a

00:49:09.620 health care provider to assess the ability of you to get an erection while you're at the hospital

00:49:13.040 that's inappropriate i i mean i think it it depends i i'm curious what the standard of care is for

00:49:18.900 that right now i mean do you know what the standard of care i'm not but i'm asking you as a hypothetical

00:49:21.860 but i'm asking if you go to the hospital you have problems with erectile dysfunction doctor i've got

00:49:24.860 issues and i say okay we're going to give you a medication we're going to try something and let's

00:49:27.380 see we'll see if we can get an erection i think it would be a strange form of care to say well let's

00:49:30.320 i didn't ask if it was strange or not i asked if it was appropriate i don't think it would be

00:49:33.220 appropriate no i don't think it would be appropriate so that type of medicine that type of health care

00:49:36.660 is totally out we would agree it's fine giving a medication would be appropriate it's fine to use

00:49:41.640 medical treatment stimulate them it's fine to use medical treatment to see if your body is working properly

00:49:47.460 it's fine to do things to um acquire semen for example you might use for example with some

00:49:53.180 patients use electro ejaculation stimulation of the prostate in order to get well for some patients

00:49:58.460 that's what you have to do including if they're paralyzed okay i understand what you just said was

00:50:01.300 a way more hardcore kink than water sports but okay go ahead no it no to see if you can ejaculate to see

00:50:08.340 if you're able there is a difference between trying to determine if your body is functioning properly

00:50:13.940 and saying that sex is just a service that can be provided so if so hold on if we provide so if we

00:50:21.160 provide people in the hospital we provide them all kinds of services to make sure they're comfortable

00:50:24.820 right like we give them television they don't need that to live right okay but it makes them

00:50:29.020 comfortable correct um yeah so we give patients stuff in the hospital to make sure that their stay is

00:50:35.340 comfortable we give them television we give them different food they can choose we give them bathing

00:50:39.700 obviously and when they're very uncomfortable we turn them we do things to make sure they're

00:50:42.960 comfortable so if the patient says sex would make me very comfortable why wouldn't if a nurse can

00:50:48.500 clean the guy's testicles and penis and is already handling all this why not just you put on the gloves

00:50:54.320 and give them a hand job well one is because it's illegal um two if it were legal my guess would be the

00:51:01.120 procedure for that would be you would bring in a third party or you contract out to somebody why do you

00:51:04.520 bring in a third party i've already explained let me let me finish let me finish why do you need to

00:51:09.280 bring in a third party to give the guy a hand job and not a third party to wipe his butt and clean

00:51:15.180 between his peritoneum because when you start engaging in romantic or sexual or well who says

00:51:20.240 it's romantic it's just getting i said or or means any of these when you engage in romantic or sexual or

00:51:25.800 friendship type things that these things are all inappropriate because they compromise your

00:51:30.880 ability to objectively offer care for instance would it be inappropriate to say well can you

00:51:35.020 please just like jerk me off you're gonna clean my ass yes that would be because if a patient starts

00:51:38.140 to have a sexual issue with a practitioner then there then if that practitioner is gonna make a

00:51:41.640 tough call on that patient's health that might become right the same way that let's say the same

00:51:44.740 way that let's say the person's are saying like man you know my kids never why does sex do this

00:51:49.220 let me just finish hold on i gotta finish this one thing oh my god okay let's say that the patient

00:51:52.960 comes in or the the nurse comes in and the patient starts talking to the nurse like man my kids aren't

00:51:56.640 calling me like i don't know what to do and then the nurse sits around they start talking blah blah blah blah blah blah that would be

00:52:00.320 equally inappropriate that would be incredibly inappropriate if they started to form a very

00:52:04.200 close friendship with the patient that would also be inappropriate because again if a tough call has

00:52:07.660 to be made on the patient at some point you might not be able to make that tough call because now

00:52:11.580 your judgment is coming this is why surgeons that have like wives or husbands don't operate on them

00:52:15.820 because their judgment is compromised what if you can give hand jobs you're not attached it's just sex

00:52:19.540 work well right now in terms of how human relationships work it seems to be the case that something very

00:52:24.660 important which is that there is an emotional psychological component to sex as somebody so as

00:52:29.920 a lawyer we have rules on how we're able to engage with people we're not allowed to accept gifts for

00:52:35.080 instance i want to i want to make sure i'm understanding destiny correctly and what he just said hold on let

00:52:39.200 okay let lila go then i'll have you come in go and i do want to get back to the contraception thing but

00:52:43.560 uh but you had said that there's an emotional romantic connection to sex that's i think you i don't know

00:52:49.640 oftentimes there can be yes yes so that sounds like more than work it can be yeah so so you're

00:52:58.220 taught when you talk when you guys talk about sex wait no hold on i'm sorry wait i'm sorry real quick

00:53:01.340 i reject that what do you mean that sounds like more than work when you talk about sex work like

00:53:04.340 we can sell this commodity of sex like it's a service to lead like it's a service you're saying well

00:53:09.460 but more emotions and psychological romantic feelings get involved therefore it doesn't belong in

00:53:14.200 the professional setting of health care that's what you're saying because but like so how can you still

00:53:17.840 say it's work and it's a professional do teachers work yes do they have emotional connections to

00:53:22.440 children and parents and they should that's okay so then that argument doesn't make any sense so

00:53:25.880 what's the next one well are you saying that a nurse should not have an emotional connection at all

00:53:29.080 to her patient generally they try to minimize it yes uh they they should have empathy that's actually

00:53:34.380 required for nurses to have empathy you're telling me they shouldn't have empathy they should have

00:53:37.440 compassion they're two different things because empathy can compromise your ability to

00:53:40.440 are you saying a nurse can't understand uh the personal background desires hopes

00:53:46.200 and develop a friendly rapport with a patient you can have like a friendly where there isn't you

00:53:50.720 can no no it's a key it's a crucial distinction having a friendly rapport with somebody is different

00:53:55.580 than becoming personally emotionally invested in the outcome you have to maintain an appropriate

00:54:00.240 level of distance whether you're a lawyer whether you're a professional sex crosses that line

00:54:04.360 because of what sex just intrinsically many things cross that line like i just said when you're a

00:54:08.120 lawyer you can't accept certain gifts you can't get too close to your clients they can't become like

00:54:12.340 best friends to you that's going to cause problems for you down the line we take entire classes on

00:54:16.340 this on all the ways we're not supposed to get too close with our clients and it's not all sexually

00:54:20.280 it's even just in friendship so professionalism the standard for professionalism i agree it's not

00:54:24.700 professional to offer sexual services to somebody in a in a setting where that's not appropriate but

00:54:30.160 there are other things that aren't appropriate either doesn't mean they're all bad and that you

00:54:32.840 can't yeah so i think i mean the the point that you're making though is that sex is personal

00:54:37.520 it involves rom it can involve romance it involves feelings it involves this connectivity that you

00:54:42.960 sometimes can't help but have and that's our point well i have a question that's not your point

00:54:48.600 that is part of a very important part of our point no that's every single human's point we all

00:54:53.040 understand that we everyone here agrees that a therapist you understand that and but you also

00:54:57.440 think it's acceptable to have sex these sexual relationships with potentially thousands of

00:55:03.280 people you're missing you're not understanding the whole point of your argument has to do with

00:55:08.020 dual relationships and you're trying to apply this to singular relationships we all agree here that

00:55:13.280 a therapist having sex with a patient would be bad right why because it don't what do you mean

00:55:18.400 let's say the therapist is a sex therapist should be a sex therapist is obviously not the type of

00:55:23.120 there's no but that's the thing it's illegal for sex therapists to have sex with their own clients

00:55:29.340 i don't they can talk to them about even hold on i'm not even sure that's true hold on okay let me

00:55:33.040 okay i can't ask a question because i'm not going to get any engagement you may ask that's not true

00:55:36.340 i'm not it is a very simple question is can a therapist have sex with a patient and then you're

00:55:41.760 like well what about sex therapy no no no well i think jasmine considers what correct and they can't

00:55:46.640 because it compromises your ability to give good therapy i am saying is that if sex is just a service

00:55:51.500 that is provided and it has this we don't have to i understand the next stage of argument i'm trying to

00:55:55.300 show why that's ridiculous i understand it you're going to say then i will take it out of the dual

00:55:58.520 role to the single role and i'll give you wait wait wait let's just explore this for two seconds

00:56:02.060 then we can go to whatever you're gonna jump to okay a therapist cannot have sex with a patient

00:56:05.480 because it compromised their ability to deliver good therapy well it depends on their relationship

00:56:09.740 right no that's not the only reason oh my god go ahead it does it would also be equally inappropriate

00:56:15.620 for a therapist to form a close friendship with and to go out and like have drinks or meals with

00:56:20.600 it's not but it doesn't mean that drinks and dinner are super inappropriate it's not just that

00:56:25.160 because when a therapist has sex with a patient destiny it's great because the therapist has a

00:56:30.000 power imbalance over the patient and can manipulate their emotions and there are consent issues involved

00:56:34.960 sure that's true as well that's not what we're that's the more important reason okay we can pick

00:56:39.620 a different we can pick a nurse and a patient as well i think it must be said that a lot of people

00:56:44.940 involved in creating pornography and prostitution consider what they do a form of therapy for the

00:56:51.540 client that's that's not at all there's a reason that the sexual revolution has coincided with us

00:56:56.540 being more cognizant of things like consent because the whole point of the sexual revolution and allowing

00:57:01.140 people more freedom and how they want to express their sexuality is that it's a choice but it's

00:57:05.460 still your choice right that's why things like marital rape was outlawed in the 90s we have the rape

00:57:09.720 shield doctrine you're not allowed to bring up a victim's past sexual history in a sexual assault case

00:57:14.160 we have a me too movement so i don't think like yeah power imbalances are important because that can get in

00:57:18.940 the way of consent so consent is super important but what you choose to do is not that's what the

00:57:24.760 section it's not it's an accident that those two things and me too is a reaction against the excesses

00:57:29.180 of the sexual revolution so i mean i think to say that these things are given to us by the sexual

00:57:33.500 revolution is totally well let me let me it is though all right like marital rape marital

00:57:38.080 feminists you're saying me too is a is a reaction to what me too is the reaction to the excesses of the

00:57:44.720 sexual revolution i don't think and and a lot of the uh a lot of the reform that was requested in

00:57:49.400 the way that marriages took place and marital rape protection was early feminists who are not sexual

00:57:54.900 revolutionaries who themselves wanted family values and many of them were pro-life no so to say that it

00:58:00.240 was the sexual revolutionaries i'm saying that those two things coincided at the same time because

00:58:04.560 the whole point of the sexual revolution was that okay you're not going to be ruined now because you

00:58:08.700 choose to have casual sex but if someone comes in because there was a lot of inappropriate

00:58:12.740 harassment rape etc statute of limitations has been increased due to the me too movement all of

00:58:18.180 these things coincided because consent is a huge part of the sexual revolution i i i think that me too

00:58:24.880 is a response to people seeing women as commodities that they can acquire and seeing sex as a means of

00:58:33.000 of acquiring that commodity basically it's responding to a dehumanizing view of sex now i agree many people

00:58:39.640 don't have that view but i do think that the hedonistic view of sex does lead to that but here's

00:58:44.900 the question i wanted to ask just to get back to what sex is for and why i think it shows that this

00:58:49.740 view of sex is absurd all right suppose you had a friend and they said uh because this is parlaying

00:58:56.280 an idea that sex is just a it's a hedonistic activity people can share with consent like say for

00:59:01.760 example like martial arts so martial arts if i go nobody thinks sex is like that no no hold on let

00:59:06.480 me say make the analogy okay if i start martial arts with somebody without their consent i'll go

00:59:11.320 to jail because that's assault right i just go out and punch somebody but i can ask them hey do you want

00:59:15.760 to spar with me a little bit okay and then that's okay because we have consent and it's this kind of

00:59:20.400 activity now imagine that you would it be healthy to have a friend who says hey um i'm glad you and i are

00:59:27.220 getting into martial arts together um but i really feel like we can only be friends if you only do

00:59:32.620 martial arts with me or we can only be friends if you only do tennis with me or i want you to be my

00:59:38.740 only friend you're the only friend that i have with those examples would you say that those are

00:59:43.440 disordered friendships probably yeah all right so my next question would be is it disordered for

00:59:49.920 someone to say i want you to be the only person i have sex with you're the only person who has sex

00:59:55.000 with me do you think that's disordered not necessarily no what's the difference between

00:59:59.500 activities that are pleasurable and consensual martial arts chess tennis spending time together

01:00:05.900 and sex then what's what is the difference between the two that one is disordered it's a friendship you

01:00:10.900 should not get in and the other we would say not even that it's not disordered but it's the way

01:00:15.000 things ought to be what's what's the difference uh i the difference is going to be the preference

01:00:20.900 of the people that are partaking in these things some people might feel like uh they like to do

01:00:25.420 martial arts with a lot of people and for sexual activity i think people tend to prefer to be more

01:00:29.960 exclusive with that um there's probably other things we could think of that is that is that natural

01:00:34.040 who should we think like that's the way they ought to treat sex whether or not it's whether or not

01:00:39.080 it's natural or not is a separate question well it seems obvious that if someone says i want you to

01:00:44.440 be my only friend and you can't have other friends we'd say that's a friendship you probably

01:00:47.920 shouldn't get into right generally yeah then why like if we're gonna use like why don't why don't

01:00:52.620 we say the same thing then about i want you to be the only person i have sex so the fact we say

01:00:56.560 it's a good so if we're talking about sex work if a subscriber told to me you're the only person i

01:01:00.480 want you to i'm the only person i want you to have i would say no that's not the context of yeah

01:01:04.540 because you're selling a business and you can't have one customer yes but my point is that just

01:01:08.080 because that's one way to see sex is like an intimate monogamous thing there are a lot of people who

01:01:12.760 don't view it that way who don't want to view it that way and i'm wondering back to my original

01:01:16.020 question where are these outcomes that are so detrimental to society that's happening because

01:01:19.900 some people uh people that want to be polyamorous are not getting in the way well you don't think

01:01:23.940 that 20 percent of couples expressing unhappiness because of porn porn use in the in the relationship

01:01:29.300 20 percent of couples where is that yeah this is a study from um and then also the statistic about

01:01:34.820 uh the amount of uh people that are um pornography use being uh listed as one of the reasons for

01:01:42.500 divorce you don't think that that's meaningful it could there are many things that are listed as

01:01:46.120 divorce but i have a bunch of studies here that show that since like i just told you porn that

01:01:50.260 porn actually can have a cathartic effect on violence the std rates come down there's a huge

01:01:54.220 study that shows that aids or um yeah hiv could go down by 30 to 40 percent if we were to just

01:01:59.360 decriminalize prostitution so there is evidence going both ways when it comes to porn and sex work

01:02:04.820 and i don't see anything that's super conclusive that this is just a terrible harm more than something

01:02:09.680 like alcohol institute by the way about 20 percent of couples report a degree of conflict in their

01:02:14.000 relationship due to pornography one in four men report hiding porn from their partner on the one

01:02:18.700 in four men awesome okay hiding it from their partner probably because they're looking at that

01:02:21.820 prostate electro stem porn okay but but i i think the the larger kind of the meta point here and you

01:02:26.580 were speaking to this earlier destiny but then we kind of got uh you know the conversation unraveled a

01:02:31.340 bit but you were saying about how we have all this technology and so now we can do now we can treat

01:02:36.300 sex recreationally did i understand you correctly i'm saying that it's allowed us to change

01:02:39.580 the way we view sex yes okay so my point is that even with the technology the natural

01:02:46.220 consequences and outcomes still find the way even if we can live in on reality for a short time with

01:02:52.080 the technology you know i'm just on only fans for a moment it's not going to hurt my relationship

01:02:56.160 i'm going to use a condom here so i'm not going to get pregnant whatever it is right or i'm not going

01:03:00.080 to get this girl pregnant whatever it is the consequences catch up and when i brought up the

01:03:04.860 gutmacher institute statistic the reason it mattered is because half of the women who are

01:03:09.760 getting abortions according to the research arm of planned parent of the biggest abortion chain

01:03:14.680 report using contraception in the month that they got pregnant so they were using it they thought

01:03:19.600 they were doing the safe safe sex thing and then they get pregnant and they show up for the abortion

01:03:23.620 so my point here is i just you keep bringing up the stat like yeah it wouldn't surprise me if for

01:03:29.080 instance like 70 of people that die in car accidents are wearing seat belts that doesn't mean wearing a

01:03:33.500 seat belt it bad it means that like if you're going to be in a car you're probably in a car

01:03:35.760 you're probably wearing a seat belt if you're getting pregnant you're having sex you're probably

01:03:37.900 but if getting into the car is promiscuous sex maybe we should consider not getting into the car so

01:03:43.520 much okay i'm just saying that that number you're giving when they're saying like people were on

01:03:46.520 birth control car is going and sleeping with the prostitute of getting into the car here's a

01:03:50.160 question sex culture then maybe i just want to ask about your study you brought up a study i'm not

01:03:53.620 familiar with this you said that what was that number that you quoted you said which one 50 percent of

01:03:57.660 people said they were using birth control or whatever and they got yes okay so the types of okay in that study

01:04:02.940 for birth control did they include natural family planning and pull out method no this is a

01:04:08.060 contraception birth control pills and condoms or barrier method pull out method and natural family

01:04:12.800 plan are both considered forms of contraception i mean that's like a very small fraction of a percent

01:04:17.340 of people who even use that anyways first of all that's not true that is especially among christians

01:04:21.380 natural family planning is considered one of the only ethical ways to do contraception which you know

01:04:24.900 no this is large this is this is largely birth control pills and barrier method condoms or diaphragms or

01:04:32.040 otherwise okay all right i mean i'd be curious if that's true but like even so it is true because

01:04:36.320 we know there's a failure rate there's a failure rate there is a failure rate but like perfect use

01:04:40.640 failure rate is like one percent um if you're having a lot of promiscuous if you're having regular

01:04:45.900 promiscuous sex or regular sex even with one partner that you don't want to have a kid with

01:04:49.020 eventually there's going to be you know for many there will be a failure for men when you know hold

01:04:53.580 on for many there won't be it's a one percent failure rate that's the opposite of many almost a million

01:04:57.940 abortions a year enough no and by the way 330 million people i don't know if that's enough

01:05:02.840 well and by the way you're so easily can i say one other point many people that's not what one

01:05:08.560 percent means one percent is not many one other point because i know that you think abortion

01:05:11.620 typically is acceptable up to a certain point there's over 10 000 abortions that happen after

01:05:16.180 the marker where you think it's a human life okay so is 10 000 abortions 10 000 murders you would

01:05:21.600 consider it murder of children that are viable in this country a year is that worth the promiscuity

01:05:28.820 of adults 10 000 murder you're linking that to to sex work and promiscuity i don't yeah i'm i don't

01:05:34.140 see that you just said oh it's affecting 20 alcohol is also like i think 10 percent of divorces lists

01:05:38.540 like alcohol is alcohol bad now i think alcoholism is bad alcoholism is bad but alcohol doesn't have to

01:05:44.760 be alcoholism do you think that's bad in moderation i agree if you have a compulsive problematic porn use

01:05:50.400 is bad but is porn bad and is sex bad that's the question i think sex is great i think porn is bad

01:05:55.280 what is the jasmine what's the difference between porn use and problematic porn use problematic porn

01:05:59.260 use is where people personally identify that's the medical term with it being a problem in their lives

01:06:04.080 which is a very small the biggest the only representative sample we have puts it at like

01:06:07.520 four percent is it possible for someone to use porn in a bad way if they don't personally feel

01:06:14.140 anything bad about it what do you mean what's can you give me an example of how using porn in a bad way

01:06:17.580 a husband uses a husband looks at porn talks to only fans girls masturbates to them uh and his

01:06:24.120 wife hates it but he doesn't think it's a big deal and it's really hurting their marriage and just like

01:06:28.280 if he drinks alcohol too much and she doesn't think and she doesn't like it but he still does it that's

01:06:32.920 a bad it's bad when people violate the boundaries now let me try another one then let's say what if

01:06:38.100 the wife says you talking to any woman on the face of the earth hurts me and makes me upset would

01:06:43.720 you say that that wife has an inappropriate boundary no because there's some there's a lot

01:06:48.140 of people that are like that and they literally that her husband cannot talk to any woman even

01:06:53.520 like a female secretary she's so hyper jealous my family is from the middle east this is literally

01:06:58.700 how they set up society do you think that's good i don't think that's good but if that if there are

01:07:02.180 people who that's the way that they're happy i don't think that's good i think the way you guys

01:07:05.840 live your life isn't great you guys don't think the way i live my life is great the point is

01:07:08.800 that when we allow people to do what's conducive to their own happiness that's but what i'm asking

01:07:13.280 you is that can a spouse have boundary expectations that are reasonable and unreasonable i think if

01:07:21.340 we're going to use like a reasonable person standard that depends on like the community sure in certain

01:07:25.300 communities that's and in your community porn is bad i'm just talking about the community this even

01:07:29.760 this community out here who is you know um non-disclosed location uh you know uh would be listening in on

01:07:38.140 this that an unreasonable boundary would be a girlfriend says my boyfriend can't talk to any

01:07:43.380 other women that that would be unreasonable and a reasonable one would be my boyfriend should not

01:07:48.500 be going around looking at other naked women that's fine but so like you guys also think like

01:07:52.760 masturbation in general yeah you got not you're what do you mean what do you mean by you guys well

01:07:56.420 like i've watched your video you said masturbation just in general is is wrong i don't think that our

01:08:02.640 community standard would agree with you i would agree that maybe i'm farther this way but you're

01:08:07.000 definitely nowhere near where the reasonable person there are there are definitely boundaries that

01:08:11.740 are like pathological that are not okay and there are probably some that are okay but we're not

01:08:14.880 debating whether our sexual ethic is good or bad we're debating whether your sexual ethic is bad

01:08:20.500 okay yeah and we're i'm wondering where are you seeing the only thing you have is that 20 percent of

01:08:25.440 marriages have an issue with this 20 percent marriages have issues with substances and etc are those

01:08:30.500 things bad you said and alcoholism is bad i think problematic porn use is also bad you should go get

01:08:35.660 help from that yes and divorce rates have not gone up since the proliferation of porn but the point is

01:08:40.520 that porn is a is a prominent factor in so is substance abuse so is alcohol but you would say

01:08:46.300 substance abuse is bad so why are you saying porn is good i think no no wait wait because substance

01:08:50.680 abuse you're you're wait wait you're saying substance abuse is bad therefore why isn't porn bad

01:08:55.340 no that's not what i said that hold on that is literally what you just said you said why would

01:08:59.640 substance abuse be bad but in the context of why people get divorced destiny is what we were speaking

01:09:03.260 yes no no but people don't get divorced because of substances they get divorced because of

01:09:06.880 behaviors substance abuse well and but you're saying they get divorced because of porn why not

01:09:11.780 porn abuse yeah what's my question problematic porn it's getting in the way of your life it's bad but

01:09:17.200 there are most of the people that consume porn which is the majority of people it's not getting in the

01:09:21.140 way of their because we're not getting in the way because we we can delineate we can say oh when you

01:09:25.980 drink this much alcohol it makes you sleepy or giggly or fall down drunk or wrecks your liver

01:09:33.260 we can talk about the different effects at the different levels and what they do and whether

01:09:37.360 it makes sense for a wife to tolerate or spouse to tolerate or not tolerate but when it comes to

01:09:42.820 porn i think it's very fair for a spouse to say yeah i'm not going to tolerate my spouse um giving

01:09:50.100 orgasm or giving that sexual desire to someone else my biggest problem with the view you guys are

01:09:57.200 defending is that you lose any principled basis to say things like infidelity or even other you can't

01:10:05.380 even define what extreme sexual behavior is as long as it's consensual you can absolutely have all of

01:10:13.560 these discussions just because you say i think that my partner can watch porn you're saying you can't

01:10:17.780 have any more sexual boundaries if you grant that because i could explore your lives and find a million

01:10:22.740 different things do you think your partner should be allowed to eat well yeah of course should they

01:10:26.840 be allowed to have dinner with a member of the opposite sex alone at a restaurant maybe not that

01:10:31.180 some people wouldn't be necessarily comfortable with that just because just because you allow some

01:10:34.220 things doesn't mean that you've eliminated every single thing no this goes back to my previous

01:10:37.880 argument and saying about what boundaries are reasonable or unreasonable that if sex if sex is

01:10:44.380 just another activity yeah like other activities then it becomes unreasonable to demand exclusivity for it

01:10:51.300 literally but nobody here is saying that sex is just another activity you seem to have you seem to

01:10:57.460 have then what is it sure there are some activities that can serve a variety of different purposes

01:11:04.100 okay for sex it could be recreational or it could be an incredibly emotional romantic bond building thing

01:11:09.840 much the same that we could imagine as i just brought up dinner could be whatever i've gone on to

01:11:14.020 dinner with a ton of people right it's whatever but dinner can also be an incredibly romantic personal

01:11:18.400 event some of these things even some people could set boundaries around and everybody would say

01:11:21.880 that's fair if you say oh i went out to eat with like three or four friends last night you know

01:11:24.840 samantha was there oh that's cool that hits a lot differently than if you say oh i went out to eat

01:11:27.980 last night with samantha we went to you know ruth's chris we had like a 200 dinner and wine

01:11:31.420 that doesn't feel fair that feels like cheating a lot of people would say that's that's not okay

01:11:35.300 you've actually like cheated on your partner because you took another woman out on a date

01:11:38.700 so i don't i don't agree with this idea that just because you're saying sex can be used like

01:11:42.640 romantically that's the only way you can treat it and as soon as you've used it

01:11:46.420 even a little bit on this recreational side you've lost all the ability to have romantic

01:11:50.460 utilization because you wouldn't apply that same standard to literally any other activity in the

01:11:54.200 world because sex is not like any other activity in the world i didn't say wait wait what do you

01:11:58.160 mean it's not like any other activity it isn't sex is something that's unique because it has the

01:12:02.460 ability to create new people it is designed to bring people together in a close intimate bond

01:12:08.960 that no other natural activity is created towards well and because it has those propensities

01:12:13.680 we have moral norms around it and that in order to have prostitution and pornography you have to say

01:12:19.680 well those moral norms are just what puritanical people because it's not intrinsic to the activity

01:12:23.860 itself sex can be utilized for other things for instance when you masturbate you're not procreating

01:12:28.480 and masturbation is about as natural as it gets plenty of people learn to touch themselves at

01:12:33.140 incredibly early ages it's like a natural part it's not human development but it is not natural the

01:12:37.680 state that we're in now where people can masturbate to all to a nearly an unending supply

01:12:45.140 wait i would i would like to i would like to finish please okay it's not relevant what i just said

01:12:50.400 absolutely is relevant because we're talking about whether this is bad for society no we're not we

01:12:54.860 were talking about if it was natural whether what's natural set you're saying that sex is made for

01:12:59.980 procreation and blah blah first of all ignore the fact that designed a designed process well we could

01:13:04.580 fight over that but that's going to get into religion but i'm telling you that there are forms

01:13:07.300 of natural sexual exploration like masturbation as you're growing up that obviously don't produce

01:13:12.420 children and aren't designed for that i didn't i didn't i didn't say sex for procreation that's not

01:13:16.500 my answer to the question what sex is for but i'm getting back that even if someone didn't have a

01:13:20.520 complete answer to what sex is for they wouldn't say oh well it's like dinner it's like other

01:13:24.940 activities where there's just a multiplicity of meanings there's no correct meaning to it people have a lot

01:13:29.080 of different meanings to it i think a lot of people would end up rejecting that

01:13:32.940 wait rejected how when when casual sex is so prevalent who would you mean a lot of people would

01:13:38.480 reject that a lot of people will reject that when you talk about what is it what is it for like

01:13:43.500 especially when you're in the context of a relationship well yeah in a context of relationship

01:13:46.780 it changes of course and the biggest the most telling thing here in my opinion is all the social

01:13:51.480 data shows the vast majority of it shows that these problems arise when there's no when there's

01:13:57.000 a moral issue with it right because alcohol like you said there is a link they have linked at the

01:14:02.280 amount you drink with the probability of it leading to problems with porn there is no link there's

01:14:07.540 no study that can link the amount you watch with having problems with it in your social life and even

01:14:13.940 not true first there are studies done by nicole praus who is a pro-porn advocate in 2013 that shows

01:14:21.880 there's lesser reactivity in the brain to people who frequently use porn to be able to have attachment

01:14:27.440 to spouses or significant others kuhn et al in 2014 and other further studies in 2015 were the first to

01:14:34.660 use magnetic resonant imagery to show the actual changes that take place in the brain when people

01:14:40.860 frequently use pornography it changes the brain and raises the dopamine ceiling so that in order to

01:14:46.040 receive uh sexual arousal you need more and more uh extreme and even violent forms of pornography in

01:14:54.800 order to reach that that's why you have things that now people are seeking out not just sex they're

01:14:59.460 seeking out incest pornography they're seeking out bestiality they're seeking out group sex rape play

01:15:04.760 and that is bad when society falls more into that the whole point of that nicole praus study which i

01:15:10.360 have here is it's the exact opposite of what you'd expect to see going on in the brain of someone with

01:15:14.160 an addiction this is her words the findings are suggest self-proclaimed porn addicts don't quite

01:15:18.220 have the same relationship with porn as someone that substance like with substance addiction so

01:15:21.700 yeah she has done a lot of work no i'm a big fan of her that shows that it's not a real addiction and

01:15:26.300 a lot of it she was also in this big study that found this is the quote moral and congruous around

01:15:30.600 pornography use is consistently the best predictor of the belief that one is experiencing pornography

01:15:34.780 related problems or dysregulation it seems to be unlike alcohol unlike substances that it has a lot

01:15:41.500 to do with how you feel about it and i can just give you anecdotal experience from talking to so

01:15:46.040 many people on my only fans my european fans those cultures where it's not like sex isn't seen as such

01:15:51.320 a like terrible thing the way they interact with me is like hey how are you can i get this video and

01:15:56.080 they're like okay cool the people who have this moral incongruence their behavior is super radic they

01:16:00.320 come they go then they delete everything then they come back sometimes they send you a bible verse like

01:16:03.480 these people are really struggling so but then there are people who consistently ask for more and more

01:16:10.100 kinds of uh frankly bizarre so nicole praus uh talked about this study i think it was in croatia

01:16:16.380 where that there's actually evidence that they do it in the beginning and then they eventually the study

01:16:21.060 they done showed that over time they go back to the vanilla stuff and she was attributing it more to

01:16:24.960 people being like oh this is kind of weird like let me click on this and then over time being like

01:16:29.100 okay i'm over it it's like kind of like a shock factor thing that's what she found and that's what she

01:16:33.640 talked about and i would say there was a 2016 uh study by wright et al that did a meta-analysis the other

01:16:39.280 thing i'm concerned about is it raises the dopamine ceiling and this was a study that was done across

01:16:44.120 uh 22 countries showing an increase in the level of aggression in men who view pornography versus

01:16:52.900 those who don't and i think that makes sense when you look at the most popular forms of pornography

01:16:57.760 involving things like domination subjugation of women uh using verbal you know verbal abuse gagging

01:17:06.240 asphyxiation and and a lot of other things like i said earlier about the increase in things like

01:17:12.780 incest and incest role play real quick just on two questions so first of all when you say an mri shows

01:17:17.960 changes in the brain responding to dopamine levels of people that continue to use porn this is true of

01:17:21.900 probably literally every single stimulating activity right yeah right like if okay so that's not

01:17:26.540 unique to porn that would be the same in playing cards that'd be the same eating potato chips that'd be

01:17:29.920 the same in playing video games that'd be the same in watching movies or tiktoks or whatever so i don't

01:17:32.840 know what that's supposed to prove secondly just so i can understand this it's in the relation of

01:17:36.200 it's in the relation of what you find to be sexually arousing the people who continue to use

01:17:40.280 porn and use porn more more frequently need more and more varied or disturbing or intense

01:17:46.480 pornography in the same way that an alcoholic needs more potent alcohol to feel a buzz than when

01:17:53.020 they first started drinking okay that's those two things are completely dissimilar wait wait wait hold

01:17:58.000 on i'm sorry um real quick okay i hear this brought up so many times and i'm curious if there's an actual

01:18:02.300 number on this p i've heard this said over and over and over and over and over again people who

01:18:05.780 consume porn need to dramatically increase the extremeness of the porn they're consuming what

01:18:09.820 is the percentage of those people that that happens with because i've heard that said over and over

01:18:13.040 again is that actually true or is that just like something we say we take well i think the

01:18:16.880 proliferation of i mean even what we were talking about that's not an answer yes it is an answer even

01:18:21.940 if you don't like it the fact that when you look at porn hubs most search terms over the past 10 years

01:18:27.320 and see that it's extreme things which by the way your view can't tell me what's extreme or not

01:18:32.380 okay the 2022 the searches that define 22 were reality gender group sex outdoors those are the

01:18:38.060 positions feet and femdom these are our top seven like types of searches so do you think it's extreme

01:18:43.200 people do you think it's first though that's not the complete search list those are highlights

01:18:48.280 that were put up there you have to scroll down more to get the no no you said the top i'm asking what

01:18:52.160 are the top ones those were the highlights that they put in that graphic i know the page you're

01:18:55.940 looking at oh so you're saying that that if i go to look for the most common searches it's not those

01:18:59.980 yeah oh okay teen and yeah scroll down step mom or step sibling okay i'm sorry so the most search

01:19:06.440 terms were hentai japanese oh no milf which is the opposite of team lesbian teen is no yeah teen

01:19:13.820 mysteriously disappeared after 2020 when at the same time porn hub was indicted not indicted when porn hub

01:19:20.520 was being investigated for having child sexual assault materials and credit card companies were

01:19:26.220 refusing to work with them if you go back and look at it from 2012 to 2019 teen is one of the most

01:19:31.340 common categories search for it mysteriously disappears though after they have trouble with

01:19:35.340 these credit does it mysteriously disappear do they just eliminate the category to try to stand the

01:19:39.280 safe side of like all the well now now they've realized i don't know what they've done but they have

01:19:43.640 seemed to have kept certain terms from being searched for but other people go and search for them and

01:19:49.180 then of course there's other sites beyond porn others sure there are okay but i think we consider

01:19:52.900 this a good thing this is like a form of like regulation working right if we think that like

01:19:55.620 people searching for teen porn and even the ones you've put there would you say hentai is a more

01:19:59.100 extreme version of pornography it depends on what you're looking for would you say it's more extreme

01:20:04.520 um do you think it's more extreme to to be aroused by watching someone be penetrated by tentacles

01:20:10.340 well not all hentai porn is tentacle porn oh there's lots of different types of hentai but that's but that's

01:20:17.280 a common element of it i don't know if that's right wait i want to go back wait i want to go

01:20:22.040 back this question nobody answered this i want to know do we know because i've heard this said over

01:20:25.560 and over and over again that people that start searching for pornography are going to gravitate

01:20:29.060 towards more extreme versions i'm curious what are the percentage of people that start on the

01:20:32.480 pornography road that end up at more jasmine was using anecdotal anecdotal examples of her

01:20:36.820 okay gotcha i guess you can go on from that i just want to be clear that this is repeated over and

01:20:40.420 over again we have no number on that there's no data that's just something that's said over and over again

01:20:44.180 i literally just told you what people tend to search for on the internet and it's not like

01:20:48.940 loving couple has sex well and child sexual assault material is proliferating yeah we're talking about

01:20:54.580 it i just i had a very clear question i was curious how many people start with vanilla porn and move on

01:20:59.280 i'm looking for a number between probably a hundred percent because they start when they're when they're

01:21:03.840 11 years old okay and they probably see boobs naked people sex and then it quickly moves on from there

01:21:10.540 based on these common search terms you see what's on and i 100 percent of people move on to hard

01:21:14.440 no i'm sure not 100 i'm sure some 11 year old finds hentai and then they're really in for bad

01:21:19.220 because of the work i do in speaking with young women and the new york times and others have done

01:21:23.480 investigative reports on this what young girls are reporting about sexual encounters that they have

01:21:29.460 with other young boys and the extreme and often very disrespectful things that the young boys expect the

01:21:37.660 young girls to do because of the pornography that they're exposed to on the internet so i think

01:21:42.080 it's living in unreality for you both to sit there that's great well hold on let me finish please let

01:21:46.780 me finish i think it's living in reality for you both to sit there and say porn is harmless it's great

01:21:51.480 yeah there's some bad stuff but has nothing to do with porn and everything's fine when the reality

01:21:55.780 is of your average young girl and your average young guy today boy today who's looking at porn on the

01:22:00.940 internet is being exposed to rape porn is being exposed to sexual assault porn is being exposed to

01:22:05.280 child sexual assault material and a lot of young girls are reporting and yes we don't have the

01:22:09.700 exact statistic on it because it's hard to know this it's not just the niche in 2021 bella delphine

01:22:13.920 one of the most uh no no wait she just said a whole thing do we get the response well the last thing i

01:22:18.820 was just going to say is these young she's doing kidnap role play it's pretty pretty common i mean

01:22:23.780 thank you that's a good point i mean even this is a very prominent dress as a child i mean a very

01:22:27.660 prominent porn creator who's doing what trent just said but these young girls are reporting that they are

01:22:33.040 being asked to do very degrading demeaning things that are scary for them it's even on this podcast

01:22:38.740 i was at this spot in this show okay you're just repeating your point okay let's just say how the

01:22:43.140 guy wants to do these aggressive violent things with her and she's uncomfortable okay this is

01:22:47.720 pervasive and you can pretend it's not happening but it is that's fine okay but like that we can argue

01:22:53.020 that there might be negative uh sexual behaviors that might be being picked up from porn which is fine

01:22:57.560 if you've got numbers on that i'd be interested however you don't think that's happening destiny

01:23:00.560 i do think it's happening but okay we don't i'm glad we can agree that that a lot of but the

01:23:05.280 problem is a lot of women push for it too so it's hard to know it doesn't matter who pushes for it

01:23:08.780 it has led to that is the point but we don't know if it's led to it though right it could have been

01:23:13.440 there could be these desires that also weren't being expressed or we expressed in other ways before

01:23:16.340 for instance things like i i can tell you what i'm saying you don't have to say you're saying i can

01:23:20.040 just tell you what i'm saying right things like for instance uh sexual behavior at the workplace

01:23:24.080 is inappropriate towards women that's something that's been a past time in workplaces for a long time

01:23:28.020 men treating women in sexually uh aggressive ways at workplaces that had nothing to do with

01:23:32.600 pornography things like spousal rape or marital rape these are things that have existed for a long

01:23:36.740 time that weren't encouraged by or made for pornography if you want to play history anecdotes you can look

01:23:40.900 at all of the conquests of cities where there's sacked all the women is it your argument that the

01:23:45.080 11 year old who's exposed to pornography and finds themselves suddenly looking at sexually very

01:23:50.680 explicit sexual assault material uh pornography that when they then may try to act out aspects of it

01:23:57.300 with a girlfriend their first time in real life that that's a result not of the porn but i don't

01:24:03.120 think this is happening i don't know no let's i don't think an 11 year old i don't think an 11 year

01:24:07.800 old's first porn video is like bukkake throat fuckers 69 that's not what i said 12 year old

01:24:14.020 girlfriend okay how do you how do you know that you're representing what i said i said that the 11

01:24:18.980 year old who's exposed to porn and gets hooked and starts to look for more and runs into because it's

01:24:24.000 everywhere sexual assault material type porn torture type porn maybe child sexual assault

01:24:29.580 material porn that that kid then if they act out some element of that in a real life sexual

01:24:34.640 relationship with a young girl your your argument is that well they would have done that anyways even

01:24:39.820 without the porn no my argument is if you think that's happening because i'm 34 and i've grown up

01:24:45.800 hearing all the same arguments from jack thompson about video games that you think a boy's gonna play

01:24:50.780 a game and take a chainsaw to a guy's face and saw it open and he's not gonna go and bully his

01:24:54.400 friends or kill somebody at school you don't think these schools i've heard all these arguments if

01:24:57.460 you think it's happening that's fine you give me a plausible scenario where it could then show it in

01:25:01.220 the data then show it in the data how many 11 year olds are choking their 12 year old girlfriends

01:25:05.440 because the new york times a report on this okay and the new york times report is going to say that

01:25:10.120 like this percentage of 11 year old students are choking their girl no and also i don't think we need to

01:25:15.820 come here and say we know the exact we've no no you need to present an argument you're if you're

01:25:19.780 trying you're presenting a positive argument you're saying that 11 year old boys hold on let me restate

01:25:23.680 your argument you're saying 11 year old boys are finding extreme porn and they're acting that with

01:25:27.680 their girlfriends no that's if that's happening that's pretty bad do you have any evidence they're

01:25:31.620 not acting it out with their girlfriend is it pretty bad is it pretty bad if somebody views

01:25:35.300 something i don't know the answer that we'd have to that's something you would research okay for an 11

01:25:39.560 year old boy to suddenly start looking at right probably not do you think it's okay for an 11 year

01:25:44.400 boy to hear his parents having sex do you think it's okay for an 11 year boy to see somebody

01:25:47.360 naked at a beach so you think those are no no no answer that answer that answer those questions

01:25:51.020 do you think it's okay for an 11 year old boy use them as comparisons do you think that an 11 year

01:25:54.480 old boy i didn't say they were the same that's why it's a comparison it was a comparison it wouldn't

01:25:57.380 be two different things that i'd be comparing it would just be me saying the same thing twice

01:25:59.800 they're not a meaningful comparison because i didn't well let's find out if it's a meaningful

01:26:02.720 comparison that's what i'm asking you can you tell me is it appropriate for an 11 year old boy to

01:26:06.120 hear his parents having sex no i think that's inappropriate but it is

01:26:09.680 okay dramatically more scarring to walk in and see a rape happen scarring okay oh okay

01:26:16.200 then give me the study so there's 11 year olds that are traumatized okay no it should be easy

01:26:23.400 we don't we don't have overwhelmingly women that are seeking out this kind of stuff so if there's

01:26:27.720 a woman who's 13 14 i was one of these and i was like oh choking kind of hot and then when i got a

01:26:31.980 boyfriend i was like i want to try and we both agree that this is what we want to do how is that

01:26:36.480 are you saying that it's not bad for a 13 year old girl to to seek out uh choking porn no i don't

01:26:44.320 think it's bad i think if that's what so then so you think maybe maybe it's a good thing to show that

01:26:47.900 i also want to say where is the harm you think repeat this it's not bad for a 13 year old girl

01:26:54.540 to seek out porn where women are choked as part of sexual violence i don't think it's wrong for girls

01:26:59.900 when they're exploring their sexuality and they do that through porn if they like being dominated like

01:27:03.780 i'm one of these girls to see that represented it would be wrong for an adult to show a 13 year

01:27:07.400 old girl that yes but that's different it's different because there's an imbalance thing

01:27:11.420 you're not supposed to show children this but if a child like if i when i was how about a 16 year

01:27:15.120 old boyfriend shows it to her as if he's like hey are you into this i don't think that's bad either

01:27:19.860 wait wait 16 year old boyfriend with 16 year old girlfriend or 16 year old girlfriend with a 13 year

01:27:22.320 old girl yeah that's with a 13 year old girl oh well that's that's different it's three years

01:27:26.260 three years typically if it's within the before it becomes statutory rape when they're not even supposed to be

01:27:31.000 having sex if it's 16 and 13 and most days they're not even supposed to be having sex or 16 and 14 i

01:27:35.400 know that the romeo and juliet laws so 15 and 16 or 13 and 14 whatever you want to say if it's two

01:27:40.060 people of the same age and they're just exploring what each other likes and there's consent and both

01:27:44.040 people are comfortable with it and it turns them on it's okay for them to explain now let's go back

01:27:47.680 then so it sounds like what you're saying is so fine 13 how about a 10 year old girl is looking up

01:27:51.680 this stuff i mean that's really young but i think that's still part of like normal exploration i wish i

01:27:57.080 agree i wish this wasn't available to children does child are children harmed when they see

01:28:02.020 pornography well the research on that is kind of mixed i actually have a couple so you your answer

01:28:08.820 is i don't know the answer is that there's uh research going in both ways and a lot it's not

01:28:12.960 just me so if the research so let me ask this so if the research goes both ways and we don't know

01:28:17.100 should it be a crime should it be a crime then to show children pornography yeah i think children

01:28:22.920 yes but we're not talking about but why because you're saying we don't you're saying we don't even

01:28:26.740 know it's also a crime to give children alcohol is alcohol bad and the other thing i wanted to

01:28:30.860 point out it can be very bad talking about the link no we here's why it's a crime to give children

01:28:34.860 alcohol that children cannot consent to activities that are capable of gravely damaging them or even

01:28:40.900 damaging at all like kids have to have their parents sign them up for sports teams they can't

01:28:44.320 just sign up on their own so it seems like then that we'd have to agree that uh if if porn doesn't

01:28:51.000 damage kids then they don't need parents they don't need consent and they don't need a law to

01:28:55.340 protect them right if it doesn't damage i think that the it's really mixed on if it damages or

01:29:00.100 doesn't so to err on the safe side with children i'm okay with i wish we could keep it away from

01:29:04.360 children but we can't okay let me so by that logic then you know people there's you know differing

01:29:10.560 opinions about whether childhood football damages children too much or not so by that logic we should

01:29:17.260 treat childhood football teams as being as wrong and necessary to outlaw as showing porn to children

01:29:24.660 what okay wait here's a question which doesn't make any sense which what damages the child yes that's

01:29:29.980 my question no that's my question to you now well you're the ones promoting sex work and pornography

01:29:34.120 so sure so i'm asking i'm asking i'm asking where you draw the line because you're saying that it's

01:29:37.300 clearly not you're saying that porn is clearly over the line despite the fact that you presented

01:29:40.680 absolutely zero data to support that point what so you're giving that a child being exposed to

01:29:46.080 pornography when they're 11 or 12 or 13 or whatever are having all these negative outcomes

01:29:49.940 i don't think you provided a single stat for any of that or a single point for any of that other

01:29:53.600 than it feels wrong i mean which is fine it can feel wrong there all right i did provide that i

01:29:58.440 mentioned the 2016 right at all study with the 22 countries the meta sorry 22 studies of children

01:30:03.560 that sounded of all people it's talking about children young people and rise of aggression and use

01:30:08.720 of pornography that's 22 studies across seven countries there are other studies that we can put

01:30:13.400 forward okay but even beyond the studies it's just an obvious okay i would like to finish and

01:30:20.620 then i would love to hear your response it just seems obvious to me that if a 12 year old boy

01:30:26.060 has access to porn hub and can freely search it it won't take him long to find what we consider

01:30:32.500 extreme pornography and if he finds extreme pornography what are those outcomes so you talked about sexual

01:30:36.980 aggression there's a meta-analysis from the 1970s to 2020 and it shows that some show that there is some

01:30:41.860 show that there's not but the studies that were done over a longer period the link was weakened

01:30:45.260 it's also been found the studies that employed higher level of best practices tended to provide

01:30:48.700 less evidence of a potential well there's a meta-analysis the biggest predictors for sexual

01:30:52.380 aggression number one alcohol so again is because alcohol seems to be actually showing us more

01:30:57.400 conclusive harm in all of these respects is alcohol harmful is it bad there's a meta i mean in

01:31:02.380 excess it is absolutely there's a meta-analysis that trent and i have both well we say that porn is

01:31:06.840 connected to aggression um including you're right and that's why and that's why for example with

01:31:11.420 alcohol what we do is we have very stringent barriers to make sure to try to keep minors away

01:31:16.440 from alcohol even though they do that so for example would you agree we ought to have very

01:31:20.380 stringent barriers to keep children away from pornography for example all pornographic websites

01:31:26.120 should require age verification i think that the problem is is that practically speaking the ones that

01:31:33.160 are going to implement that are going to be the bigger ones but it's the internet you can't

01:31:36.300 control the internet so what's going to happen is those sketchy sites in russia are going to be

01:31:39.720 why don't we just why don't we just have a rule that all pornographic websites have to have a triple

01:31:43.960 x domain and then we can put them in one area that requires age verification how about that if if there

01:31:48.780 was a way that we could actually make it so that you had to verify your age to be on these then that

01:31:54.660 it wouldn't lead to just moving people over to sketchier places where they can still access because i

01:31:59.340 don't know if you know the internet's pretty easy to find like crazy shit you don't and even if you go

01:32:02.980 okay what's what's worse on the sketchier stuff what do you mean what's worse you're saying you're

01:32:07.300 worried that if you use age verification to keep a kid off porn hub he'll go to a sketchier website

01:32:12.080 so the sketchier stuff so for instance places like porn hub right now they have gotten way stricter with

01:32:16.860 the type of content you can put out you can't put out like if you search rape on uh porn hub nothing

01:32:22.020 comes up but if you go to like some of these sketchier ones they do come up so your your issue

01:32:26.400 is more can you can you do um step sibling incest yeah and i don't think that's necessarily

01:32:31.200 like okay if someone views step sibling incest where what are they doing what are they doing

01:32:36.140 with that that's so harmful is step sibling incest bad step sibling watching step sibling no i'm

01:32:42.080 just saying is the act of step sibling incest bad i wouldn't say it's 100 bad and i want to know if

01:32:46.560 you're saying it's bad why where where are the outcomes because i'm looking at family members

01:32:49.760 shouldn't have sex with each other i'm looking at outcomes here so i'm saying if people are watching

01:32:53.460 this more aggressive because if you have to where where is that come on if you have i don't need a

01:32:58.360 study to know that i shouldn't have sex with my sister whether she's by law or blood or brother

01:33:02.840 is watching it make is watching it increasing step sibling incest that's my question is watching this

01:33:08.780 stuff increasing it happening are people having more incest now in real life or are they just

01:33:13.260 watching it desensitizes one to it yes so are but is that actually leading because the same thing

01:33:17.980 happens with violent porn but there's a lot of studies that show it could kind of have a cathartic effect

01:33:22.100 and that sexual crimes actually decrease when people watch it so my question is the meta analysis

01:33:27.100 of 22 studies that show that increased use in porn increases okay and this is a meta analysis of

01:33:33.700 even more that shows that some of them do some of them don't but the ones that had best practices

01:33:37.360 show a weakened link so i guess what best practices best practices means like having the uh like peer

01:33:44.560 review better control group more people studies not yeah i'm talking about studies so the studies that

01:33:49.480 have best practices employed that's what this meta analysis from 1970 to 2020 found show that

01:33:53.320 that that week that link is actually weakened and then if you look at actual crimes happening

01:33:57.520 what i am surprised what i am surprised by is that you can't make a moral decision without saying well

01:34:03.360 let's see what these psychological studies say even though we're in the midst of a replication crisis

01:34:08.060 let me finish we're in the midst of a replication crisis where many sociological studies in some

01:34:12.500 instances 70 or 80 percent can't be replicated so we don't know if the studies conditions are accurate

01:34:17.940 we can't just go with the very basic element of hey getting an erection at watching fake rape

01:34:23.720 that's probably a bad scenario that's probably bad if people do that well here's the thing you're

01:34:28.220 talking about incest right if we're seeing that people that's also right people are watching step

01:34:32.260 sibling step sister stuff it's not making them more likely to do we have no evidence it's not

01:34:35.960 leading to greater aggression it's not leading to anything if the harm is just minimized to them

01:34:41.640 seeing it and being aroused by it is that i just want to get something clear and if so why can i get

01:34:46.320 something clear you're okay with people being aroused and ejaculating over rape porn you're okay

01:34:52.440 with that as long as it's something that if it's not real and if it's consensual actors and you're

01:34:57.540 okay with someone getting aroused and ejaculating over um uh incest porn yeah as long as again would

01:35:03.940 you be okay with someone ejaculating and being aroused over child sexual assault material provided

01:35:09.780 it wasn't a real child it was a simulation if it and same thing if it was a simulation i would look

01:35:14.480 at what the consequences are if it's leading especially when some of them show it's leading

01:35:17.560 to less actual harm to children or if it's leading to less sexual aggression in person if it's leading

01:35:22.260 to less essays which a lot of studies show then i think yes i think if you're just getting aroused by

01:35:27.280 it but there's no harm being done what about a child being raped but it's a simulation and it's okay for

01:35:32.400 someone to ejaculate over that in your mind i would say that if that if okay here's the thing some

01:35:37.820 people have that proclivity and if watching it when there's no real child if it's ai and that

01:35:43.700 prevents somebody from actually acting this out as a cathartic effect i would say there's evidence

01:35:48.220 that watching by that the here's it has a cathartic effect on actual essay here's the difference okay

01:35:53.220 so it sounds like you're saying well how can you really how can you really know that people desire

01:35:56.640 something virtually that they don't also we have no idea if they really want it in real life if it

01:36:01.480 primes them for that that's not what i'm saying what i'm saying is that they might be confined to the

01:36:05.540 virtual and so they don't have the desire to do it in real life all the evidence that we have shows

01:36:10.180 that it either is confined to the virtual or it's actually preventing at least when it comes to

01:36:14.080 sexual aggression yes what is one of the what is one of the main is it true that one of the main

01:36:18.200 reasons there's different reasons women quit only fans right is one of the main reasons that they

01:36:22.500 find they make more money doing escorting i have no idea i don't know i've never heard of anyone i

01:36:27.800 know anyone i know has never quit to do escorting no do any do any people who do only fans make

01:36:33.480 supplementary income from escorting some do it's against the rules of only fans if they found out

01:36:37.700 you get kicked off but or other campsites i'm sure they do but what do you think then in those cases

01:36:44.160 that it's plausible someone begins on a campsite they're excited by this virtually and then they

01:36:50.340 want to take it to the next level and that's how that happens what do you mean what happens they're

01:36:53.660 now sexually assaulting the no they're they're having a physical active intercourse with this person

01:36:59.060 they first experienced on cams yeah what does that have to do though with having higher what i'm

01:37:02.880 saying what i'm saying then is that if we see in these circumstances where someone begins they're

01:37:09.340 aroused by virtual contact with us with someone and then they instincts well i want to take it to

01:37:15.640 the next level that's going to really make me aroused and go and meet that cam girl in person

01:37:20.280 why wouldn't that apply also to virtual acts because all the data shows that it doesn't absolutely

01:37:25.920 even people like jordan peterson have talked about how there seems to be a cathartic effect

01:37:29.800 from watching it that actually leads to less of this happening in real life and i have some studies

01:37:33.440 that show that we you you have no evidence saying that people watching this leads to more of it in

01:37:38.440 fact there's evidence that's leaning in the other direction wait destiny you wanted to you wanted

01:37:42.700 to ask something yeah these arguments are completely and totally disconnected the idea that if

01:37:46.160 somebody gets into some type of work they might continue on down that type of work doesn't at all

01:37:49.500 feed into like well isn't it obvious and if somebody watches porn like that's like saying like if you

01:37:53.760 start drinking at all you're going to become an alcoholic and it's like why would you say that

01:37:56.640 well isn't it likely that somebody that works as a bar back might become a bartender someday so why

01:38:00.300 wouldn't like that that argument is no there's no connection whatsoever there are many cases of

01:38:04.520 people that are uh ultimately caught for the use of child sexual assault material and one of the

01:38:10.420 things that gets them extra penalties is that they were actively seeking to act out the fantasy that

01:38:17.780 they were playing and the attacks that they were doing against these children in their mind

01:38:20.920 in on real life children they had difficulty accessing real life children yeah so i think

01:38:25.440 it's it's a very it's a very much living in unreality argument that i think i mean you're living in

01:38:30.840 reality because you have no evidence of this actually increasing that we can't say that people can live

01:38:36.540 this whole life in their minds that they're acting out in their bodies through ejaculation and that's

01:38:41.800 not going to affect anything that they do in the real world but yet that seems to be the case with

01:38:45.400 movies and video games where a kid can sit in front of a computer and play 12 hours of violent video

01:38:49.640 games a day and lo and behold he doesn't go out in the real world and kill somebody i think i think

01:38:52.460 training yourself and actively sexually arousing yourself and ejaculating over these activities

01:38:57.720 i agree there's a mental arousal that happens when you're out there killing people

01:39:03.540 but to say there's no connection i think is an

01:39:05.500 well if there's no connection has to be the connection has to be proved with child sexual abuse has gone down

01:39:10.200 since the proliferation that's not true there is it has not child sexual abuse has not has not gone down

01:39:14.880 from a study from the university of new hampshire that decline of 30 percent or more and subsistence

01:39:19.860 is this reported child sexual abuse jasmine yes but so where's your evidence then that it's just

01:39:24.440 unreported now but it's going up because people are watching where is that evidence we have insane

01:39:28.400 rates of child sexual abuse in this country and it's gone up since the proliferation and we've had

01:39:33.080 well it's in conjunction with the proliferation then it should go up if if porn being introduced to

01:39:39.200 society has let has made this worse then where is that it's not just porn it's also we haven't

01:39:44.880 talked to this very much it's also prostitution you want data i'll give you data look up cho at all

01:39:49.780 cho a 2013 study covering 150 different countries showing an increase in human trafficking when

01:39:58.760 prostitution is legalized wait no none of us even disagree with this yeah that's that's but that's but

01:40:03.880 that's sex work why is sex work bad prostitution is sex work sex works bad because it leads to

01:40:09.120 other bad things like human trafficking but wait that doesn't make the sex work itself bad yes it

01:40:14.140 does because you can you can use other let's say let's say it was the case that most of the alcohol

01:40:19.080 we drank in the united states came from the cartel would that make alcohol bad no it would make it bad

01:40:24.020 if using alcohol also fueled some other extremely dangerous violent form that's what i just said let's

01:40:32.120 say that hypothetically opium was grown in the fields of afghanistan and that was a huge export for them

01:40:37.260 does that make it bad to consume all products all medical products related to painkillers no i'm not

01:40:42.000 talking about remote cooperation with evil what i am saying is that if you have different policies when

01:40:46.460 it comes to something like prostitution yes for example if you have a policy where you legalize it

01:40:52.280 and so it's legal to both buy and sell sexual services like you say you have in germany or other

01:40:57.860 countries where that's allowed you have an increase in human trafficking but if you have other countries

01:41:02.260 wait but the increase in human trafficking isn't necessary for the sex work it's just a byproduct

01:41:06.340 yes it is and i will explain yes it is i will explain why because when you legalize prostitution

01:41:11.440 tooth there and let's say human trafficking goes up or down there's going to be two different things

01:41:16.520 that happen here there's going to be the scale effect and the substitution effect okay so the

01:41:21.160 substitution effect would be oh you would think if prostitution is is legalized you know human trafficking

01:41:25.940 will go down because you have legal prostitutes now they substitute for the illegal prostitutes and the hope

01:41:31.160 would be it would go down because of this wait what is it i'm sorry wait what is the substitution

01:41:34.880 effect the sub there's the question of the relationship between human trafficking wait i'm

01:41:39.100 just curious what is the substitution effect the substitution effect is that i human trafficking would

01:41:43.680 go down illegal prostitution goes down because it's substituted with legal prostitutes you have sex

01:41:49.840 with a legal prostitute instead of an illegal one okay that's the substitution effect okay that would

01:41:54.940 that would drive the number down the other problem though is the scale effect that when you make it legal

01:42:00.960 there is now a massive increase in demand for this and there's not enough prostitutes in order to

01:42:06.180 satisfy the demand so trafficking goes up in order to meet that demand so the cho et al study 2013

01:42:12.040 150 countries including longitudinal to show germany before and after so it's not correlative

01:42:18.100 shows that the scale effect always dominates the substitution effect so when i look at that i say oh

01:42:24.540 legalizing prostitution this way that seems really bad maybe we should do something else like the nordic

01:42:29.740 model where you don't criminalize women for selling sex you criminalize men for buying it

01:42:34.720 and that really okay so then back to my original question then wait wait wait wait wait before we

01:42:38.420 jump into hold everything okay so back to my other question if for alcohol then if it was the case that

01:42:43.360 we just every time we buy more alcohol it seems like you know in either cartels or gangs or whatever

01:42:48.380 are the ones producing it would you then say that we either ought to outlaw alcohol because it's like

01:42:51.680 every time we increase our purchasing of it it always comes from it seems to come from unethical sources

01:42:54.960 we should outlaw alcohol if there are more social ills than social benefits no one is talking

01:43:00.620 about social ills or benefits yes that that is always the case that you make when you said that

01:43:04.700 there was a substitution can i finish can i finish hold on you just talked for like 30 minutes you

01:43:08.040 want to answer a simple question i did answer and you're interrupting me i said that if there's when

01:43:12.140 you have social benefit when you choose to outlaw something you have social benefits and social

01:43:16.580 ills that you have to weigh involved alcohol provides social benefits and there are also social

01:43:21.360 ills that are associated i'm only talking about the substitution and the scale effect that's the

01:43:23.960 only two i don't know why we're bringing this whole other thing now you brought alcohol destiny

01:43:26.980 what's the question that you wanted he said that there is a substitution effect but when you legalize

01:43:31.000 something you bring in legal prostitutes instead of a consumption of illegal prostitutes however the

01:43:34.140 scale effect due to the increase in the overall consumption of this particular good or service

01:43:37.760 leads to more people being brought in in sex traffic so the the fact that you're trying to

01:43:41.740 substitute legal for illegal people doesn't matter because even if the percentage of illegal

01:43:45.080 consumption decreases the overall per capita increases which causes an increase in the illegal amount of

01:43:50.360 prostitutes being used so therefore increases sex trafficking so my question was well let's say if

01:43:54.400 we take something like alcohol or any other good or service you can buy if it was the case that

01:43:57.820 the mass scale consumption of this necessarily means that it's being consumed from countries that are

01:44:02.780 engaged in slave shops or drug trade or cartels or whatever would you know it's not it's not it's

01:44:07.860 not a correct analogy you'd have to show me an example where you have a legal and an illegal version

01:44:12.820 of the same product in the market where it's being purchased and it drives the illegal version of the

01:44:18.800 product up yeah you're using it you're no you're using it but it's too disanalogous to even make

01:44:23.860 the point that you're trying and also wait hold on it's not disanalogous i'm saying let's say there's

01:44:27.560 a drug this drug is something that a bunch of people around the united states smoke or drink or

01:44:32.380 whatever but let's say that it was okay well let's legalize it but then when we legalize it there's such

01:44:35.900 a demand for it that now like all the cartels in mexico are making it would you say we shouldn't

01:44:39.980 legalize it because of that reason yeah if it if it leads to a greater net increase in substance abuse

01:44:46.360 to harm society then we might want to outlaw that i'm not even talking about substance abuse i'm

01:44:50.160 just talking about an increase in the people selling it being bad people because we have such

01:44:54.460 a higher demand for it now the supply is coming from like but it's not selling that's the whole

01:44:58.980 point here it's not about selling a product in the bad people it's about the fact that when

01:45:03.100 prostitution is legalized sex slavery goes up and the fact that we're even having this discussion

01:45:08.320 about comparing people in sex slavery to products made in different countries very much shows the

01:45:13.880 entire problem with the situation if you want to compare it to sweatshops then if you want to do

01:45:17.180 that the other problem with your analogy destiny is that there's no problems in it but sex is good

01:45:22.520 and sex is beautiful between in the right context and so to compare it to alcohol but restrict it just

01:45:29.420 to prostitution sex happening is also a problematic because i mean alcohol you can use in the right

01:45:35.820 context right sex in the right context and our position is is an amazing and a great thing

01:45:40.240 what our point is is that in the context of sexual exploitation and commodification commodification

01:45:45.560 that's when it becomes problematic and and harmful and wrong and jasmine you were saying well for kids

01:45:51.680 there's no problem with kids looking at pornography necessarily um etc there are i said that it's not

01:45:57.740 this i think having alcohol violent video games all of this could show just because something has

01:46:02.520 harm doesn't mean that now we need to get rid of it right the second amendment guns probably do a lot

01:46:07.020 more harm than porn does anyone here want to ban guns the first amendment right people say mean

01:46:11.200 things on the internet now because we have the first amendment but that outweighs that so if you

01:46:14.680 want to say something should be banned because of social ills i need a lot of evidence we're talking

01:46:18.260 about it can't be we're not talking about banning hold on hold on jasmine we're talking about is sex

01:46:21.820 work good is the question is it or is it bad and and you asked well what about you know kids looking

01:46:25.940 at objectifying pornography on the internet or you know sexual assault porn that's not necessarily bad

01:46:30.640 there are over a hundred studies that have revealed links between young people's exposure

01:46:34.140 to objectifying content and their objectification of women or self-objectification those exposed to

01:46:40.100 objectifying portrayals are more tolerant of or in agreement with sexual harassment adversarial

01:46:45.860 sexual beliefs rape myths child sex abuse myths and interpersonal violence than participants without

01:46:52.400 this exposure and experience greater body dissatisfaction appearance anxiety and disordered eating

01:46:57.800 beliefs so to say again to to argue that kids being exposed to porn or for that matter adults

01:47:03.960 using porn is harmless there's no negative effect to them or the way they view other people

01:47:08.660 is simply i didn't say there's no negative effect to them i'm saying the negative effects are not

01:47:13.260 even that conclusive adolescence and pornography you kept saying to us what are the negative effects

01:47:16.980 what are the negative you have 20 years of research since 2005 more than 65 empirical studies have

01:47:21.960 appeared with a peak of 11 articles in 2011 the reviews have come to opposite conclusions notably about

01:47:26.660 the question of whether pornography is related to adolescent sexual attitudes and behavior so some find there is

01:47:31.200 some find there isn't the problem here is that if we just do evidence-based i have a lot of studies

01:47:35.340 that probably show the opposite so we can just ask a basic question which i've been continually asking

01:47:39.300 and did not get a straight answer from that you've seen you're not committed to the idea that it's

01:47:44.280 just bad it's bad when children 10 11 years old see porn if it is bad like you say there's some studies

01:47:51.080 say what is bad what does it what does it do to them you came close earlier you guys are saying well

01:47:55.840 they might not understand how sex ought to be or determine what's real or not real in it

01:48:02.340 would you agree that pornography has distortions of sexuality in it that children like what i mean

01:48:09.460 i especially if you look at so in fact like things like only fans has made that problem better for

01:48:14.520 just general society a lot of studies on only fans shows that it actually helps people understand sex

01:48:18.880 people report feeling more educated they report improvements in their sex lives so sex education is

01:48:23.800 good right like if i have a child my point isn't going to be like porn bad it's going to be like

01:48:27.640 hey look this is not how sex always is right if there's all and now there's so many different kinds

01:48:33.580 of porn out there that show different kinds of sex amateur is there some kind of consensual sex that

01:48:38.160 people should never do like can you give me an example well i'm sorry is there some kind of

01:48:43.360 sexual behavior i will give you an example i'm curious to see how your guys's ethics would apply to

01:48:48.020 this because i think that this view of sex is not that is grounded in pleasure

01:48:53.600 even if it's grounded in consent you're going to have problems i'll give you an example

01:48:56.700 so a month ago peter singer one of the most famous philosophers in the world uh shared an article

01:49:02.600 on twitter from the journal of controversial ideas and he said this is really interesting

01:49:07.200 uh and it was a defense of bestiality okay and it was an interesting defense of it because i think

01:49:12.020 it goes through many of the common arguments that are made against bestiality and shows why a lot of

01:49:18.160 them don't work uh you know for example uh well i guess i mean i could ask you i'm sure i know what

01:49:24.020 your reason would be but it seems like okay i'll put it this way all right i think what you might say

01:49:29.700 is that obviously bestiality is wrong because in order for sex to be moral there has to be consent

01:49:34.820 and animals can't consent yeah okay that would be my view i don't think i don't think that that's a

01:49:39.580 a good argument because we eat animals number one yeah that's good we eat animals without their consent

01:49:46.100 we do normally we just say to do a scientific experiment on somebody you need their consent

01:49:51.280 right your lawyer yeah you need their consent but there's certain things at least you can't do even

01:49:57.240 with their consent now right but to do any scientific experiment you need the patient's consent yes but we

01:50:02.120 do scientific experiments on animals all the time without consent and i'll give you um one you know

01:50:08.320 one more example so let's say like uh police canine units uh i gave the martial arts example earlier

01:50:15.040 that if i do martial arts with somebody without consent that's assault they need to be okay with

01:50:20.000 me punching them in the head so police officers train canine units and they assault them they fight

01:50:26.360 them they teach them how to subdue a suspect they basically get involved in fighting with a dog and

01:50:32.520 the dog can't consent to that but we don't consider that animal abuse so if it's okay for cops to rough up

01:50:39.480 a dog to teach them how to subdue a suspect why wouldn't it be okay for someone on only fans to

01:50:44.940 let their clients see their dog lick peanut butter out of their vagina so this is different we probably

01:50:50.920 have different views on this i don't think that that's okay i don't think the way we treat animals

01:50:55.560 is okay i i would disagree with i don't think we should be testing on animals the way that we are

01:51:00.000 we treat them as completely non-human i don't think that's necessarily intellectually consistent are you

01:51:04.800 vegan i'm not vegan but i'm an asshole for that okay yeah i should be let's take a little but no but

01:51:10.020 of all the ways we could treat animals of eating them doing experiments on them uh making them do

01:51:15.460 hard agriculture work do you think that the do you think that the least violent way to treat them

01:51:20.800 would be things like letting them eat peanut butter off somebody's penis i think some of the experiments

01:51:25.520 that they do on animals especially when it comes to like mental health where they like purposely put

01:51:29.040 monkeys and scare them and do all this i think yeah you if you just fucked a monkey it'd probably be

01:51:32.920 better than if you did all that shit to a monkey so that you can so that you can gauge how how did

01:51:39.460 we get to monkey fucking because if sex is just for pleasure animals like pleasure too and we're all

01:51:45.560 animals we're a different species this view that undergirds prostitution pornography can't coherently

01:51:51.020 explain why it's wrong and i think that that's a problem well and i just i would just like to make a

01:51:55.320 quick statement i just like to make the whatever podcast does not endorse bestiality i do i need to do a

01:52:01.320 couple chats here and then we'll continue on with the conversation we have dr clockwork

01:52:07.320 a common reason of divorce is leaving the cap off of the toothpaste is brushing your teeth now bad

01:52:12.840 correlation does not equal causation people have lots of reasons for divorce usually more than blank

01:52:19.240 okay dr clockwork thank you appreciate it we have dvon frame here coming up in just a sec

01:52:26.980 just waiting for it to pop up hey dvon frame thank you human beings tend to twist and molest

01:52:31.760 everything they dip their toes in you religious folks should know that well how do you propose we

01:52:36.380 better build healthy functional adults a sar milker i have no idea what that means but uh

01:52:41.980 um how do you propose we build we better build healthy functional adults i don't know if that's

01:52:50.100 virtue really worth okay habitual predisposition to choose the good okay i think i think it i think you have to

01:52:56.480 have a realistic assessment and you have to acknowledge the real biological forces that

01:53:00.560 exist in people rather than trying to design systems around virtues that are of religion or

01:53:05.940 other sorts of origination um we've seen this fail over and over and over again and it has failed and it

01:53:10.780 will never come back the idea that sex can just be confined to one marital thing is just something

01:53:16.700 that even for most of human history hasn't gone well i think when people try to have relationships

01:53:21.900 where sex is open and can be shared with lots of people that's where we see failure sure i but we

01:53:26.560 see 50 percent of marriages fail that don't even have those issues so and we seems like i think that

01:53:30.260 the i think that the better thing to do is to say there are different ways you can engage with sex

01:53:33.960 here are the pros here are the cons if you engage with it in this way things like this can happen or

01:53:38.140 things like this could happen and then if you engage with it this way here are the good things or bad

01:53:40.900 things i think the problem is everybody is so ideologically driven to attack one side or support

01:53:45.420 another they end up making absurd statements like you know everybody should be happy with this style

01:53:51.040 of monogamous sexual relationship in marriage and anything else is wrong or everybody should be you

01:53:55.080 know in a polyamorous fucking 500 people and that's totally okay we'd say everybody deserves love that

01:54:00.280 doesn't need to be satisfied uh by other people as sexual objects yeah that's fine and that that sort

01:54:05.480 of view has led to you know histories of marital rape and women not even like having orgasms

01:54:09.080 the case is that sex has a particular design to it and we can pretend that it doesn't but it does and

01:54:14.120 that design tends towards intimacy and connectivity between two people and it could also create life

01:54:19.680 and i think when we pretend that that's not the truth about sex and we say that sex is just whatever

01:54:24.580 i want on my own terms provided there's consent then we open the door to all of these things to your

01:54:29.020 point jasmine you're saying well there's all these studies that show pornography doesn't cause so many

01:54:32.500 issues i have all these studies that show that they actually lead to object objectification in real life

01:54:38.020 and all these other problems when you look though at the data of people who are promiscuous or having

01:54:42.760 multiple sex partners that's when you see and what are people doing in real life people very harmed

01:54:48.200 and people experiencing more addiction people experiencing more mental health issues yeah but

01:54:53.500 wait so then do you think that we should heavily discourage or socially get rid of you of saying

01:54:57.980 that sex is whatever and let people do what they want to do so wait so all forms all forms of sex and

01:55:03.540 that aren't leading to like procreation and relationship building between husband and wife then in your eyes

01:55:08.460 are basically like things that should be heavily sex uh socially discouraged so as an example this

01:55:12.720 is a new zealand study well wait no wait i'm asking i'm asking for a moral perspective like for

01:55:15.960 example this is not a moral perspective this is data no no what you just gave me when you say sex is

01:55:19.500 designed for something that's a moral perspective that's it's a philosophical position yes which is

01:55:23.900 but i'm talking about the data proves but i'm not i'm not talking about that i'm asking you morally

01:55:27.080 you think that the only type of sex that should be encouraged in society or should be allowed in

01:55:30.140 society should be sex that is for the design of like having children basically uh i think it can include

01:55:35.260 having children but no it's designed for the for marital love sex makes children what about i just

01:55:39.080 so then for things like gay sex or lesbian sex in your ideal society are these things essentially not

01:55:43.220 allowed or i think i heavily discouraged i think that sex is designed for lifelong love to two for

01:55:48.980 between two people and it is designed to be life giving now that doesn't mean every sexual act is

01:55:53.400 life giving or that everybody can give life through sex but it's designed for that and i think that's

01:55:57.940 the reason one of the reasons yeah but can we engage outside of that so for instance are gay people

01:56:02.740 having sex always committing a social sin in your eyes is that always i i think that yes i mean i

01:56:07.840 don't think okay do you think that all forms and then one more thing do you think all forms of sodomy

01:56:11.740 are also do you think that all forms of sodomy are also like social sins so any oral sex any anal

01:56:16.460 sex all of that is also like again i think if you want to talk about the the catholic teaching on

01:56:21.440 this and i'm asking for your teaching i'm a catholic all right we're not our view is not what's we're

01:56:26.780 not debating whether the catholic teaching on sexuality is true or not or good no but the positions that

01:56:30.900 you're giving to counter the sex work debate are ones that would necessarily include these but

01:56:33.980 even if you don't hold this position you can say this well but you haven't given those arguments

01:56:38.780 well here's what i well no here's what i would say the question of whether homosexual conduct or

01:56:43.740 sodomy sodomy whether it's between people of the same sex or people of the opposite sex the question of

01:56:49.180 is that disordered you cannot answer that question unless you have answer a previous question which is

01:56:55.140 when is sex ordered okay so i put forward the view that i think the only way to explain why things

01:57:01.900 like incest bestiality uh you know infidel you know gross promise infidelity other things ordered

01:57:08.180 towards a very particular expression of love between a man and a woman but even if you didn't hold to

01:57:13.940 that view uh your view can't really say when sex is ordered when it's properly ordered to a certain end

01:57:21.380 all you can say is well you just got to make sure it's consensual but after that that's the morality

01:57:26.460 that you're proposing i think yeah i think that we can propose like very simple things around like

01:57:30.380 as long as it's consensual as long as it doesn't lead to like obvious exploitations of like certain

01:57:34.120 people so for instance you probably shouldn't be able to have sex and sell your kidney or something

01:57:36.920 right destiny the question today is is sex work bad for society and we're talking about you're

01:57:42.740 talking about and presenting a view of sex where provided there's consent between adults everything's

01:57:48.080 fine and dandy and you're saying well the data bears out for pornography that it's fine and dandy

01:57:52.400 i'm saying well we have all this data that shows that it's not and you're saying well we then and

01:57:56.040 the consensus is on my side and and and and there's a lot of other data that we haven't even talked about

01:58:01.340 yet well one thing before wait wait before we get into that let me just read the rest of the chats we

01:58:05.560 have four chats let me just get through them and then we'll uh continue on modest to comma hey thank

01:58:10.140 you man brian love the real debate format thank you for setting it up destiny props for coming back

01:58:14.300 multiple times although i mainly disagree with you it is nice to hear actual discussion from the

01:58:18.880 other side rather than libs screeching libs screeching be a good band name that would be a

01:58:24.640 great band name destiny do you play any instruments by chance or went to school for music so yeah okay

01:58:29.280 piano and saxophone yeah okay there you go we have fear maddox hey thank you hello brian i find this

01:58:35.780 interesting i have friends who goes out much etc and i'm that only friend who doesn't because i have some

01:58:40.800 level of self-respect virgin my friends don't believe me why do people think there aren't men

01:58:45.100 who have self-respect not entirely related to the conversation because it's it's like look down on

01:58:54.200 in our culture to be a virgin or to pursue pursue abstinence and i think good for you i think that

01:58:59.060 takes a real a lot of virtue good for you fear maddox we have kyle whittington hey thank you

01:59:04.880 question for destiny and trent at what point is consent no fuck wait hold on i'm sorry can i respond

01:59:09.440 last one no wait if hold on i'm sorry real quick you you want to go back to the last one yeah if

01:59:13.820 you want to be a virgin or if you want to be promiscuous you should do some exploration of your

01:59:18.360 own values and don't let people like um lila so i'm not allowed to encourage you're not allowed to

01:59:23.980 bully people because that's just as bad you are when you're like when you say i'm not sure if it was

01:59:27.580 bullying the answer shouldn't be the answer shouldn't be the answer shouldn't be good for you for uh you

01:59:34.500 know having self-respect but because that's the exact same answer that third wave feminist

01:59:38.520 so lila can't affirm the boundaries he set for himself i thought sex was all about making

01:59:43.340 what you should say is you should figure out what works best for you sexually you should do that

01:59:49.240 exploration and instead because if that guy would have said hey i went out and i fucked 20 people and

01:59:53.260 my friends all look down on me why don't they have self-respect you wouldn't be affirming his

01:59:56.400 bound you'd be saying oh no i would not affirm that i would exactly so you so you weren't affirming

02:00:00.040 anything healthy for him you just like that he was ideologically aligned with you of affirmation in

02:00:03.620 this debate that someone pursuing abstinence you should affirm people because they've done the

02:00:07.040 appropriate level of exploration to figure out this is what's right for them not because you're

02:00:09.980 just pushing them just the question isn't whether someone the question is whether they align with

02:00:15.180 me you can't shame me for having the view that i don't give people credit for exploration i give

02:00:19.020 them credit for having the right answers gotcha having the right answers doesn't matter what

02:00:23.120 matters is how you get there it's more you're assuming that he doesn't get there through some

02:00:26.520 thoughtful process and i think that's unfair when your answer is because i have self-respect that's

02:00:30.140 the answer everybody gives to justify literally any stupid behavior i i i think that that's i think that

02:00:34.560 that's uh diminishing this young man and people talk about respect to justify good behavior that

02:00:40.260 they're disrespected or they have respect for themselves and they're not going to do things

02:00:44.420 like allow themselves to be objectified respect can be a very respect can be a very good reason

02:00:50.120 for something you can't just throw it down the drain that's great and the same argumentation has been

02:00:53.100 used to shame women out of even exploring their own vaginas over 30 years old like you can use

02:00:57.100 shitty arguments to justify anything that's what i'm saying it's the argument that matters not like the

02:01:00.620 correct outcome what triggered you or what yeah well it's the idea that when people just give a

02:01:04.940 position and say i do this and my friends think that well why don't they have respect then it

02:01:08.820 doesn't sound like something they've truly explored it sounds like a position they've been like either

02:01:11.880 bullied or brainwashed into and not spending a good time that comment the comment that was the

02:01:15.740 assumption i could be wrong i i don't think i think that it's unfair to assume that simply because

02:01:20.240 someone is that's great but you've already affirmed that if they would have given the exact opposite

02:01:23.880 answer with the same argument you would have disagreed with them so you don't even care about

02:01:26.960 their argument you just care about the position you're making the point the point that i was trying to make

02:01:30.280 which is that in our society today we applaud or accept um sexual promiscuity that is not true

02:01:37.960 but i think largely speaking especially like younger people it's actually feels shameful for some of

02:01:43.280 them if they are a virgin they think oh what's wrong with me and i think that we've forgotten

02:01:47.120 we've we've we've lost a sense of respect and appreciation for people who are trying to live a virtuous

02:01:52.720 life what what point in u.s history is everybody proud to be virgins i think today people no no when

02:01:58.380 are you saying like in the 80s people were proud it's like i'm 30 and i'm a virgin i'm 25 and i'm

02:02:02.400 a virgin no it's not so much about even virgin as it is about virtue is it about having um self

02:02:07.060 restraint and choosing i'm not just going out having i'm not just going out having casual sex

02:02:11.540 and so i think that we just said good young man that we think that's making and i think that that's

02:02:15.920 a good thing all right we have uh kyle whittington question for destiny and trent at what point is

02:02:21.540 consent irrelevant what would be some examples of actions that would be wrong regardless of

02:02:26.340 consent and why well actually i have an example of this destiny said something that reminded me

02:02:30.640 you talked about he also said exploitation and you talked about selling kidneys that actually does have

02:02:35.980 a little bit of a relation here it's not just we've been talking a lot about behavior like doing this

02:02:40.700 doing that but the big problem with prostitution pornography is the money okay it's money that leads to

02:02:47.880 things like exploitation so for example uh i would say it's good for somebody to donate plasma donate

02:02:53.460 bone marrow donate kidneys that helps other people and it's good that they do that but when you start

02:02:59.340 but if you pay people for those things for example the united states is one of the few countries on earth

02:03:04.680 that pays people for blood plasma most other countries on earth you can't be paid for blood plasma

02:03:09.460 and we do it here and most blood plasma donation centers they're at like they're on the border they're in the

02:03:14.420 poor parts of town and when you pay people so we have to ask even though they're consenting to giving

02:03:20.480 up parts of their body is that exploitation that they're basically doing it because they're trying

02:03:24.980 to get money if we have ethical problems about using money to get people to give up their body

02:03:30.640 their their blood their bone marrow their kidneys and that we're exploiting them because of the money

02:03:35.060 that's involved the same questions will be raised about people who will get money by giving their body

02:03:40.520 and something like only fans and it's out there as a virtual image and it's out there permanently

02:03:44.080 the same ethical issues get raised about exploitation who's exploiting me who's exploiting

02:03:49.040 you yeah you just said that if you do sex the the ceos that make millions of dollars from uh only

02:03:55.220 fans and don't have to take their clothes off you could say that about any but any industry in

02:03:58.920 america then you could say capitalism no because most industries you don't take your clothes off

02:04:01.820 it's possible so it's taking the clothes off it's the taking the clothes off that you have issue

02:04:05.580 it's the moral issue it's not no it's not the moral issue it's the commodification and it's

02:04:09.640 possible to exploit oneself that's why you can't sell your own kidney or you can't sell your own

02:04:14.820 one second one second two hundred and ninety nine dollars thank you for trent jasmine and leela do

02:04:20.200 you think it is a big brain move for a husband to let other men cream pie his wife or for him to

02:04:25.460 suck men's penises or is it more likely to cause a failed relationship we're not answering good

02:04:31.340 question i think that one of the things you're talking about when you talk about the kidney thing

02:04:35.220 is we've talked about consent a lot but i think the topic that we're really getting towards

02:04:39.240 something called informed consent so somebody's ability to give consent to something for instance

02:04:44.420 a 14 year old can theoretically consent to sexual activity with an adult but they can't have an

02:04:50.540 informed consent because they're only 14 we would say can they decide to have sex sure but do they

02:04:54.820 understand all the ramifications no and that's where the issue between whether it's moral or immoral

02:04:59.900 comes in i think when we look at things like kidney donations i think that when we look at the

02:05:04.120 informed consent we're looking at is there a group of people that are they have enough knowledge to make a

02:05:07.960 decision and if they do uh and there are no other mitigating factors the question then becomes like

02:05:12.760 why would you prevent them from doing so so let's say for instance we say okay we do blood plasma

02:05:17.120 donations but we pay 50 bucks a service for or you know like medical studies we pay people for

02:05:21.380 participation in if you do that is it an unethical transactions well let's say you say yes it is and

02:05:26.940 then we get rid of it well what have you what what like what are the social goods that you've achieved

02:05:31.540 there we have less blood plasma donated people that are poor that could have made money donating

02:05:35.560 don't have it anymore like like what what is the positive outcome that's happened there because

02:05:40.720 we can't just make ethical decisions based on what is the most positive outcome that's consequentialism

02:05:46.200 or utilitarianism even that we could do all kinds of things to try to make the best positive outcome

02:05:52.180 for example you could maybe set up a system where orphaned children a small subset of them

02:05:58.640 are used for uh child sa and then that prevents children overall from being victims of child sa

02:06:06.360 and so the overall rate goes down would that be good because we had better consequences no because

02:06:11.080 we did something grossly evil to try to get the good consequences and it's similar even if we have

02:06:15.680 more of a shortage of things like kidneys and we we do need more kidneys and organs it doesn't justify

02:06:21.380 us doing things that are evil or exploitative like taking organs from dead people without their consent

02:06:26.760 even though they're not alive anymore to consent or using or using money so that the people who end up

02:06:32.100 doing it are the poor who are in a worse place to be to be exploited and want to go and be able to do

02:06:39.420 something where they are greatly benefiting society uh but incurring massive harms because of this kind of

02:06:47.820 exploitation yeah but then i think that's this doesn't have to be utility this could literally be we

02:06:51.780 could look at this as a virtue or deontologically we're not talking about sacrificing some

02:06:56.640 group of people to save another group of people harming some group of people to save other people

02:07:00.420 we're just talking about an individual giving up your kidney it harms you well i'm saying things

02:07:04.640 like blood plasma the kidney stuff obviously well you can donate blood plasma 100 times a year we

02:07:09.040 don't have long-term studies what that does to people it may not be healthy okay but we do have

02:07:12.680 long-term studies on what like blue-collar labor does to people sure is that exploitative that we allow

02:07:17.020 people to get engage in backbreaking work that leads to negative health outcomes it might put them

02:07:20.460 around asbestos it it depends on the particular occupation so if we were to compare like

02:07:25.800 construction work to blood plasma donation what arguments do you have to save construction work

02:07:30.100 from the negative arguments you've constructed to destroy the exploitative effect of like donating

02:07:34.120 because construction work and this goes back actually to sex work because construction work

02:07:38.360 is uh a service that creates a good it's a particular kind of service or skill that's offered

02:07:44.940 with blood plasma what we are doing is we are commodifying people and one of the overarching

02:07:50.040 criticisms of pornography and prostitution including from non-religious feminists from the past 40 years

02:07:57.360 is that prostitution pornography are wrong precisely because this is not a service that is offered to

02:08:02.900 people it is the purchasing of a commodity and a simple thought experiment shows that wait let me

02:08:07.220 finish thought experiment the simple thought experiment is that people have a choice between two streams

02:08:10.760 that they want to pay for and let's say one is jasmine's uh 5000 stream you know special access

02:08:17.420 cool stuff i'm gonna do and the other one is megan from nebraska barely 18 my very first stream

02:08:24.160 this one's gonna be the far more popular one with real jobs people value expertise and experience

02:08:30.460 with commodities like a car you value that it doesn't have a lot of miles on it and people treat

02:08:35.940 pornography and prostitution and the women involved more like cars than they do like service would you

02:08:40.080 say that that argument also applies to every single form of athletics no because you value an athlete that

02:08:46.500 has more experience and so they have a greater skill set what's the average age of like a female

02:08:50.500 olympic gymnast that they have tremendous skill is they have skill and experience but wait wait

02:08:55.180 but what is it isn't the average isn't the average age like 14 years old just age the fact is that

02:09:00.280 someone would rather prefer uh cam or porn or something with a girl it's my first time whereas a

02:09:07.980 gymnast if it's their first time doing the uneven bars we don't prefer that because they're bad

02:09:12.420 so now we've so now we've narrowed this all the way down to it's just the fact that it's the first

02:09:17.160 time because commodification of bodies or people like these are things that also happen in a wide

02:09:21.940 like somebody who's younger somebody who's got less damage especially we talk about sports i feel

02:09:26.260 like for athletics this is going to apply i don't know how you can look at athletes and say they're

02:09:30.020 not commodified under this lens they can they can be treated inhumanly people can be treated as

02:09:34.560 commodities or inhumanly but i'm saying that sex work that's why i don't like that phrase it's not even

02:09:39.160 work there's a whole host of other things that are involved to say that we should treat especially

02:09:43.840 prostitution like a job to me seems insane what about acting what about what do you what about

02:09:48.500 acting would you say like women actresses are also treated as commodities because a woman actress

02:09:53.640 might be oh she's only 22 she's like god hotter we can hire her to do this job instead of they want

02:09:57.420 her to be a good actor they want her to well they want they want her to have i mean if you do porn

02:10:01.100 they also want you to do whatever pornographic actions are going to do as well right but trend's point is

02:10:05.420 that for the first the girl who's doing the first time or selling her virginity or

02:10:09.020 yeah but you're you're narrowing in a lot hyper specific like is the most popular porn star in

02:10:13.520 the world 18 years old that's just her first time the no that's not how it works i think the point

02:10:17.880 here is sex is different than all of these things sex has meaning and i think that going back though

02:10:24.920 here's the other thing why we can't i'll give you another example why prostitution it can't really

02:10:30.300 be called if you consider it sex work you'd say it's a job like other jobs that are not the the most

02:10:37.820 fun to do is that what the idea of a prostitute would be that if under the sex work paradigm

02:10:42.500 it's a job and there are unpleasant elements and like other jobs many people do it just so they want

02:10:47.580 to get paid i wouldn't say that job is necessarily unpleasant i think everything has aspects of

02:10:51.800 unpleasantness to it okay well i would say that what you don't think prostitution is generally an

02:10:57.080 unpleasant job when you say prostitution yes i said prostitution yes probably in general i would

02:11:03.120 imagine it's an unpleasant job yes i would imagine in general but there are lots of jobs that are

02:11:06.660 unpleasant and we don't treat it like other jobs so for example uh in other jobs the occupational

02:11:12.460 safety and health administration osha has very strict rules when you come in contact with things

02:11:17.600 like bodily fluids so you have to wear goggles for example you have to wear latex gloves a gown

02:11:22.940 you have to minimize exposure to bodily fluids all the time but you could never apply those osha

02:11:28.700 standards to a prostitute who's expected to you know have urine and ejaculate and other things you

02:11:34.720 know put in their face so you so you can't treat it like other jobs can you in regards to the bodily

02:11:40.100 fluids thing that probably not right so it seems very suspicious that if we were to go in and say okay

02:11:46.180 well she's gonna wear these goggles and this gown and the guy it can't just be a latex condom that's

02:11:50.480 pretty insufficient you could spread hpv even still in the areas that are uncovered you you got to wear

02:11:55.520 to to make it a job covered in osha you got to wear like a big old diaper that like covers everything

02:12:00.580 in latex in the midsection and that's the only time a sex acts are going to be allowed is if you

02:12:05.160 make sure there's no physical bodily contact couldn't you also stop to do this with like a lot

02:12:10.080 of rigorous testing prior to the action a lot of no because it doesn't matter the the osha regulations

02:12:16.240 aren't just preventing the spread of definitely infectious liquids of even potentially it's the

02:12:22.020 liquids themselves my point is just that if you if you had if you had a pro if you had

02:12:27.280 prostitution as a job that actually satisfied standards for safe work apparatuses no men wouldn't

02:12:33.840 go to that they would go to the illegal alternatives because it's not about this being a certain job

02:12:38.060 it's about acquiring a commodity in the bodies of women or men who are frankly treated like all the

02:12:43.180 evidence shows that when you do start treating it like a job std rates go down condom use goes up so

02:12:48.440 i'm just i don't get how i'm saying what are those like i've heard studies say that before and

02:12:53.500 they're often misleading like there was one about rhode island for example that claim like oh well

02:12:57.460 you know gonorrhea goes down so it it makes prostitution legal except chlamydia also goes up

02:13:02.280 during this time these are often very cherry-picked they'll pick some diseases but not others to try to

02:13:07.020 say that this is this is acceptable or not but when you compare for example when you compare germany

02:13:11.660 where prostitution has been legalized since 2002 and sweden where the nordic model let's just stick on

02:13:17.700 the osha thing right so fine well i'm just saying the prostitutes get killed in germany they don't

02:13:22.120 get killed in sweden okay for sports don't athletes sometimes come into contact with like blood and

02:13:26.560 stuff like if you're a boxer or if you do mma right and you minimize that and then you might

02:13:31.120 wait no no no no no wait they don't box in osha outfits right they don't have biohazard suits on

02:13:36.540 also pornography is already an employment industry in the united states is legal are you telling me there

02:13:41.640 are no osha standards the bodily fluids that happen in mixed martial arts competitions are

02:13:46.420 incidental to the act you can get involved in m you can do an mma match or jiu-jitsu match or boxing

02:13:51.260 and not come in contact with blood and you definitely won't come you know you won't come

02:13:54.440 in contact with semen that's not going to happen well wait what's more likely to carry like different

02:13:58.740 types of horrible infectious diseases blood versus semen do you know i don't know the answer to that

02:14:02.980 i mean i guess it depends what it gets into but the point is that no no that's not the point

02:14:06.340 then i will answer it's still incidental the goal in boxing and and mma and things like that

02:14:11.200 is not to cause abrasions and cuts no and if those things happen there are rules there that

02:14:15.760 is the goal what do you mean you're literally trying to beat the other person it's incidental

02:14:19.020 you don't have that instead of me punching them in the face then bleeding is not incidental me

02:14:22.240 punching them in the face but it's it is different though than what is going on in a sex act where

02:14:26.520 somebody is ejaculating into somebody's mouth that's completely different that is good and there's

02:14:30.960 no like we would have bandages that we applied and things to prevent the spread of bodily fluids in a

02:14:36.060 sport which i don't know if that falls under osha as much as a sport different than just a job

02:14:39.760 question do you think osha standards just don't exist for porn in the united states they don't

02:14:43.260 exist for pornography don't wait wait hold on because pornography is an employment industry in

02:14:47.020 the united states does osha i think it's i i believe that it's completely inconsistent how it's treated

02:14:51.400 compared to other when you say inconsistent isn't there going to be a different set of osha standards

02:14:55.160 based on whatever the particular job is isn't that literally the point of osha is to create

02:14:58.860 guidelines for safety for doing jobs and no i mean if we want to go wait did you say no what i didn't

02:15:04.240 hear the question that osha is going to have a different set of standards for different jobs there's

02:15:08.100 probably going to be different rules depending on your work environment right they're going to be

02:15:10.600 slight variations but the just the basic rules of how we'd apply these different jobs and different

02:15:15.760 workplace regulations and rules just cannot be applied to quote-unquote sex work going going to

02:15:21.100 prostitution in terms okay wait also just answer that real quick because i don't want to find a word

02:15:24.740 osha does have standards for pornography and they do apply to pornography and they work just fine but

02:15:28.340 regardless of the standards that may or may not apply to to prostitutes today and and to

02:15:35.200 sex workers today who are engaged in prostitution prostitution leads to very bad outcomes back to

02:15:42.300 want to talk about data for prostitutes and so i think that's something i mean trent talked about

02:15:47.260 the correlation obviously between the increase in human trafficking but it's also harmful to the

02:15:51.520 prostitutes themselves in addition to that okay i want to really go through i want to go through the

02:15:55.340 data on this because i'm talking about the and i'll i just say a couple criminalizing well let me just

02:16:00.200 finish jasmine let me just finish so i had on my show recently uh ex-porn um actor named joshua broom

02:16:06.680 and he shared his story he was one of the top ranked or awarded porn actors at the time and he

02:16:12.620 left the industry he's now happily married with four kids so his life wasn't ruined in the end he was

02:16:17.660 able to change his life and he's now extremely fulfilled but he shared about how during his time

02:16:22.200 in the industry which was six or seven years 30 of his close friends took their lives um because of the

02:16:28.240 just extreme 30 of his close friends took their lives were these all porn stars these are people

02:16:33.880 involved in pornography creating pornography so if i look up josh's story he's got there are 30 porn

02:16:38.160 stars around him that killed themselves correct yes okay and so have you i mean i've never heard

02:16:43.920 that in my life okay well in the archive of women's mental health there's a study that shows that 20

02:16:47.620 percent of prostitutes have suicidal ideation and in fact wait how many percent of women already wait

02:16:52.460 wait not 20 percent isn't it like 47 percent have tried like anti-depressants people who have

02:16:58.060 sex for money the rates of post-traumatic stress disorder among these individuals are on par with

02:17:03.560 combat veterans and think about how much suicide afflicts combat veterans and the statistic for

02:17:09.020 that specifically though according to this study is that there's an increase in risk for suicide

02:17:13.540 attempt of 41 percent versus the average of 29 percent so that 10 percent increase for those involved in

02:17:19.600 prostitution psychotic episodes 41 percent versus 27 percent hiv aids six percent to one percent other

02:17:26.240 stds like hepatitis stds 11 percent to two percent emergency room visits 44 percent to 34 percent

02:17:32.460 so the reality is if now we're talking from the point of view of is it is sex work good or harmful

02:17:38.660 excuse me for the prostitute it is very well here's the problem you're never going to eliminate that

02:17:44.400 women are going to do prostitution but we have all the data no no no now let me finish let me finish

02:17:48.500 no it is though because you're not going to get there's always going to be people that are going to

02:17:52.320 supply this and when we criminalize it or when there's always going to be rapists too there's yeah

02:17:56.240 and when we but if there was certain things that policy decisions that we could make that could

02:18:00.480 decrease negative effects for these prostitutes because there's over 42 million of them according

02:18:05.820 to the data that we have and the studies show that decrim and legalized location so consistent

02:18:10.320 improved condom use this is a big study 2021 in the quarterly journal of economics 17 work size

02:18:16.200 census at four points in time pre-crim post announcement uh but still pre-crim post-crim

02:18:21.060 and five years post-crim not only show that std rates go down for those people but overall in

02:18:25.800 that society as well jasmine also the crime rates and the amount of violence perpetrated against the

02:18:32.000 prostitutes both by police and by their clients goes up the more you criminalize the question that

02:18:36.440 we are asking ourselves today is sex work is sex work harmful is sex work bad and i just read data

02:18:43.180 that shows that if you are involved in prostitution you are at higher risk for suicidal ideation

02:18:49.400 same with being a lawyer you're at higher risk for um being and then also here's a study that

02:18:54.760 talks about the higher risk for being sexually assaulted or raped being a lawyer increases your

02:18:58.820 likelihood of substance abuse increases your suicide increases your likelihood of depression is being a

02:19:02.780 lawyer bad we need professionals to defend us in a courtroom men don't need professionals to have

02:19:07.120 orgasms they can do that themselves if they need it well said for it the problem the point is sex work

02:19:12.560 is not needed for a society the way that but it always is going to be there it's always going to

02:19:18.680 be there and if you could snap your fingers and get rid of it maybe i would take that but we have

02:19:23.660 to be practical like i said in order to say if something is good or bad you have to look at what

02:19:28.260 happens if you try to come in and take it that's not all of the all of the evidence that's good how

02:19:32.860 many that's not even the question we're asking about how to regulate or make it illegal etc we're

02:19:37.240 asking is it i would say is it let me just finish we're asking is it harmful right and we're saying

02:19:42.160 we're showing data and explaining that it is harmful you're saying well being an attorney can

02:19:47.200 be harmful the position here is well you don't need we don't a society doesn't need sex work the way

02:19:52.740 that it needs society doesn't need athletes prostitution athletes are universally harmed

02:19:56.540 and then your response to that as well it's inevitable there's always going to be something

02:20:00.160 yeah but okay so it's being a lawyer bad for the lawyer itself okay so my question is

02:20:04.240 jasmine let me finish please let me finish okay then you gotta let me finish because you always

02:20:07.360 interrupt me murder murder is inevitable it still happens even though it's against the law right

02:20:12.220 rape sexual assault is inevitable it still happens though it's against the law the inevitability

02:20:17.300 argument that something will still happen to some degree even if it's regulated restricted made

02:20:22.680 illegal etc isn't an argument for why it's good or bad and our argument today that the position

02:20:27.720 we're taking is that this thing is bad so i have a question you were talking about you were no you

02:20:31.980 were talking about how oh it's really bad for the actual sex workers and i'm saying okay being a

02:20:36.640 lawyer is bad for the actual lawyer so my question to you is if the data showed that having sex work

02:20:40.860 or having porn actually led to less violence in society and like if the data showed that then would

02:20:46.720 it be good because you're saying we need lawyers if having sex workers the data did show that would

02:20:50.900 that change your position no because we shouldn't exploit people just to make society a better place

02:20:55.280 okay we shouldn't treat people like commodities we shouldn't do evil so good may come so like i have a

02:21:00.620 question about keeping i don't understand how that doesn't apply to athletes when it when it comes

02:21:04.440 well you're like for fighters you're literally watching two people your analogy what your how is

02:21:09.620 that not commodification no your analogy would work if we actually had gladiatorial combat where people

02:21:15.280 used to have an ancient rome where somebody is going to kill another person and let's say you you

02:21:20.020 figure out hey you know what it turns out when we have gladiator matches like violence goes down

02:21:24.220 it's a cathartic release when people watch them i reject the analogy we're not i'm saying that when two

02:21:28.500 people no yes when two people we don't you don't need to make an analogy to my analogy i'm saying

02:21:32.920 that very clearly two people fighting on stage we are commodifying their bodies they undergo severe

02:21:37.860 physical trauma all of their health care uh or health lifetime uh outcomes fall dramatically right cte

02:21:43.780 among other things if an athlete had the same level of trauma that a prostitute underwent i would

02:21:50.060 agree that sport should be outlawed that's why for example i'm very sympathetic to regulating uh

02:21:55.700 professional football because of the rate of concussive injuries especially among minors so i agree with

02:22:01.040 your point but the level of harm that a prostitute undergoes is way beyond what a lawyer undergoes even

02:22:06.860 what a professional athlete undergoes it's the mental harm on par with like a combat veteran sure

02:22:10.920 let me finish or for example the question i had for jasmine was since 2002 where prostitution's

02:22:16.080 legal in germany how many prostitutes have been murdered do you know i don't have that data in front

02:22:20.320 of me but i know it's 69 how many have been murdered in sweden in that time i don't know i

02:22:24.880 could we could go one and it was by a jealous ex-boyfriend because sweden cuts the demand and

02:22:30.040 makes it a bad place that even sex traffickers what is the population of germany it's much

02:22:34.560 large it's larger but how much larger like 10 times it's not 10 times larger what is the population

02:22:39.900 of germany i don't even if you control look it up yeah even if it's at least five times no even if

02:22:44.940 you control for the population differences that are involved no sex worker has been killed by a

02:22:50.800 client in sweden since they established the nordic model in 1999 83 million by the way none okay so

02:22:56.760 it's like nine to ten times larger than sweden isn't sweden like nine million or something

02:22:59.620 you're just curious on this athlete thing okay i'm going back to this okay 10 million if you want

02:23:05.660 to compare athletes to yeah prostitutes yes that's not a fair comparison we could compare street fighters

02:23:11.600 you did it no no no hold on you're saying that prostitutes have all these negative outcomes

02:23:15.920 and athletes don't athletes would be the equivalent to like a brothel that's legalized if you want to

02:23:20.880 compare prostitutes to illegal athletes you'd look at like street fighters or something i think that the

02:23:25.600 outcomes of no but it's the the studies show the harm among prostitutes even in places where

02:23:30.380 prostitution has been legalized and pro and brothels are allowed you still have the mental health effects

02:23:34.900 so wait you think physical effects you have people that have anal muscles being torn out of them

02:23:39.300 because they have sex with 10 guys in a night okay nobody i'd rather do mma with with i'd rather

02:23:44.680 have mike tyson punch me in the face than do that and the case that i brought up of joshua

02:23:47.900 broom and his friends they were not even prostitutes they were in the porn industry that's awesome okay

02:23:52.140 so it's not awesome it's horrible and that's the point i mean okay suicide question is because of

02:23:57.580 despair connected to a lifestyle that's living out of reality of using your body and constantly

02:24:02.300 abusing your body that's the that's the problem here okay wait okay we if you are saying um i just

02:24:08.680 want to give this statement to claire you're telling me that the outcomes for prostitutes that

02:24:12.060 work in legal brothels is the same as the outcome for prostitutes that work outside in illegal areas

02:24:16.700 that are the same yeah no that's not what he said no i'm just i'm just saying that they're that

02:24:21.000 they're negative they're worse than other occupations okay so then are the outcomes of prostitutes that

02:24:25.860 work in brothels better than the outcome of prostitutes at work outside we don't know because

02:24:31.060 the you're not even gonna make an educated guess you have no idea we don't know because the

02:24:34.160 circumstances of brothels in different countries and different regions some of them are tightly

02:24:39.440 regulated and have different behaviors i'm saying in one city in one area you're telling me that you

02:24:44.740 think that prostitutes that work in legally regulated brothels have the same outcomes as prostitutes

02:24:51.000 they have the same out they have different degrees different degrees of outcomes probably

02:24:55.780 one might be more likely to have substance abuse than the other but it's still higher it's still higher

02:24:59.980 than the general population okay you do not if when it comes to data you guys are not like

02:25:04.940 this is associations between sex work laws and sex workers health a systematic review a meta-analysis

02:25:09.340 of quantitative and qualitative studies demonstrate sex workers who have exposed to repressive policing

02:25:13.640 including the nordic model were significantly more likely to experience violence from clients and

02:25:17.540 others there's a lot of studies that show this the nordic model increases violence that's not true

02:25:21.720 in the nordic model for example it showed that certain acts of violence increase like hair pulling or

02:25:27.200 slapping but other acts of violence like rape actually dropped by 50 drug use is more frequently

02:25:31.660 reported in studies from criminalized and partially criminalized settings which would be the nordic

02:25:35.060 model a study explicitly comparing health service access between decriminalized legalized and

02:25:38.800 criminalized settings experience the poorest health and safety outcomes with greater investment in

02:25:43.020 health promotion programs and occupational health and safety measures in decriminalized and

02:25:46.940 regulated settings so you guys do not win the data war on if criminalizing sex work we're not

02:25:52.560 talking about criminalization we're talking about we're talking about we're talking about whether

02:25:55.720 it's a model is better and i'll give you another study nordic model is not better when it comes to

02:26:00.620 outcomes to sex workers you cannot argue that the nordic model is helping sex workers more than

02:26:05.500 decrypt a 2003 study by farley et al in seven countries showed that 89 percent of prostitutes

02:26:13.080 want to quit their job but can't because of financial reasons same i bet if you look at like janitors and

02:26:19.460 people who scrub toilets do you have any data on that that they that they don't want to work i can

02:26:23.440 probably find something do you think what the job satisfaction is let me put it this way is it bad

02:26:27.440 that so if somebody wants to stop doing something and they can't so it sounds like we have women

02:26:32.960 the majority of them want to stop having sex with men but they can't it sounds like we're facilitating

02:26:39.760 rape on a mass scale then i don't think that's rape right i'm not saying that they're prostitutes

02:26:44.280 even if someone is no no no if someone's a prostitute who feels like they need to do this

02:26:48.760 for money and they can't quit because they need that money and a man comes and pays to have sex

02:26:53.720 with them you don't think their consent has been infringed no i think that yes sex workers i'm sure

02:26:58.440 a lot of prostitutes rather be rock stars okay that's not the point are they consenting are they

02:27:02.120 fully yes they're consenting just like somebody who doesn't want to make you a sandwich but doesn't

02:27:06.060 have a choice is going to make you so when a hollywood actress consents to the executive producer

02:27:10.420 having sex with them because she's worried about losing the role that's not rape that's completely

02:27:14.640 different because she in with sex work why you are saying hey this is my job i will have sex with

02:27:20.980 you if you pay me what do you so what how is that because these women don't it's not voluntary like

02:27:26.080 well i'd rather i'd rather go somewhere else and make money they feel like yeah because they can't

02:27:30.800 get employment there are a lot of sex or because they have previous sex sorry previous prostitution

02:27:37.560 and drug convictions prevent them from getting other trauma you can't get a job at burger king

02:27:41.840 if you were a prostitute you can't get you can't get a job in a lot of places if you have a felony

02:27:45.380 conviction is really great because in new zealand where they did that the criminals records clean

02:27:49.340 slate act of 2004 sex workers can have past prostitution related offenses expunged from their

02:27:54.360 record no places where going going back to my example with the executive producer and the actress

02:27:58.860 would you say that consent is something you can't fully have if the person you're having sex with

02:28:03.980 controls whether you're paid or not no you can't consent you don't are consenting there because

02:28:08.520 you didn't consent to that arrangement what if she went into it expecting that to happen if you went

02:28:13.620 into it consenting to it happened then fine yeah but that's well it's often expected and no hold on

02:28:19.140 something being expected and something being expected are two completely different things well

02:28:24.340 what if they went in there and they said this is part of what i want to do if that if it said on

02:28:28.180 your contract you can write this you can do that blah blah blah and you also have sex with this guy

02:28:31.560 then that's a lot different so you think it's okay for a boss to have sex with a secretary

02:28:35.540 or not not even a boss you're intuition loading so hard no i'm not you're dodging a question

02:28:41.740 no hold on i'm not dodging a question talking over me you're not you're not listening to what i'm

02:28:45.820 saying i didn't even ask the question i didn't even get through to the question because you we

02:28:49.520 can pick another example like an audition where you're not currently employed and the director says

02:28:54.080 yeah i want to get you in this movie but you know i gotta see if you really look the parts you know

02:28:59.320 if you can really pull off these sex scenes and so she's not employed yet but she would really like

02:29:04.860 to get this job and really needs it there's certainly coercion and we would say that that's

02:29:09.680 rape right if everything is broadcast out in the open and it's like part of the thing you can say

02:29:15.460 you can say that it's scummy or it feels wrong whatever but is it coercion no you're walking into

02:29:19.680 there you're accepting the job and it's like okay fuck it i'll do it like if that's something that

02:29:22.900 comes like at the end of the process like oh by the way you gotta fuck me oh by the way you do this

02:29:25.840 then yeah you can say that's coercive so you think it's acceptable for a boss to um make a move on a

02:29:33.140 employee provided the employee consents and it's like during the like during the interview process

02:29:38.660 why would that be wrong do you i can explain consent to you if you i guess because you're

02:29:42.620 religious you don't understand it so the reason why it's wrong is because consent can't be negotiated

02:29:46.940 between parties that have power over you but what if you went in there with the analysis that this

02:29:51.140 might end up happening no this might end up happening is not this is part we understand we

02:29:55.540 understand consent okay hold on you're used to you're polyamorous you don't understand the

02:30:00.240 dangers of consent i have to explain i have to explain and now we've seen what's happened from

02:30:03.620 that i have to explain okay no you went after us i'll go after you no no hold on you're asking me

02:30:08.620 why can an employee not consent to having sex with a boss the reason why you can't do that is because

02:30:13.260 you cannot determine if consent exists there because you don't know if the employee says let me

02:30:17.200 finish you don't understand the topic so let me finish okay the employee doesn't know

02:30:20.560 then stop trying to cut me off i'm trying to explain something the employee cannot consent

02:30:24.180 because the employee doesn't know if they say no if they're going to get fired that's why you

02:30:28.220 can't have consent between people overpower but if the job says you have to do x y and z and z is

02:30:33.500 having sex that's not at the same type of consent as in the middle of a non-sexual job your boss is

02:30:38.680 trying to get you to have sex but to trend scenario if you're going into this and it's a scene that

02:30:42.900 involves sex scenes and the boss says this is what something we're going to do to practice the sex scene

02:30:47.540 would you consider that a problem if it's advertised as part of the job then no if it's sprung on you and

02:30:52.960 you weren't expecting it then yes sounds like harvey weinstein should just been more forthright

02:30:56.100 then yes unironically yes we can compare podcasts we can compare podcasts in the podcast world if

02:31:01.580 there was a podcast and the guy and the guy brought on women no that was the problem the issue if there

02:31:07.540 was a if there was a if there was a movie studio and the studio says we've got a producer and he'll

02:31:11.420 make movies but you got to fuck him to do it would that be scummy yeah of course would it be kind

02:31:15.180 of like slimy maybe another kind of weird or whatever sure but would it be like non-consensual no you're

02:31:19.960 signing up for you literally are saying okay i'll go and what's making it scummy and bad i'm sure

02:31:23.980 it's injuring consent in some way i think it's scummy because like a guy having sex with women

02:31:28.440 in order like get them jobs kind of like a scummy thing but it's a lot that's not a reason that's

02:31:32.060 just an opinion it is that's what scummy is scummy is an opinion it's also scummy if he said you have

02:31:36.600 to shrug my toilet so you get to say that that sect act is bad because it makes you feel bad i didn't

02:31:41.240 say it was bad i said it was scummy yeah so is that is that a term of a negative moral evaluation

02:31:46.220 it's like uh it's like a moral non-cognitivist position of like this act that's just like it

02:31:51.140 it's not like a it's not like a strong statement on if it's unethical but we can say non-consensual

02:31:55.180 problem with it i don't know if you have a problem it's just scummy just like if someone said oh you

02:31:59.400 have to scrub my toilets in order to get this job or if you go to like thanksgiving in order to get

02:32:03.200 this job that has nothing to do with sex but it's still really scummy like family members it's not

02:32:06.720 acceptable and it has nothing to do with sex they're both no they're both exploitative that's

02:32:11.680 exploitative of cheap labor that's on you know not related to an acting role and the other is

02:32:16.040 sexual exploitation all forms of all forms of labor are exploitative nobody would work if they

02:32:20.540 didn't have to and i thought you weren't a communist no but using your definition all

02:32:24.060 forms of labor are exploitative nobody nobody wants to be a janitor nobody wants to work at mcdonald's

02:32:27.860 somebody wants to yeah no one wants to make you a sandwich a subway like it's all exploitative

02:32:32.520 right if those people had other alternatives they wouldn't do it no i think and a lot of people

02:32:35.820 who choose sex work choose it because it's the best option that they have when you work at mcdonald's

02:32:40.360 or even if you work as a janitor there's tremendous dignity and honor in that work to you

02:32:44.960 yeah what you do is something you're proud of that you can even a janitor can bring their kids

02:32:50.260 and say hey look at this timmy it's all clean and great your old man did a good job i doubt you'd

02:32:56.160 want to bring your kids to bring your kids to work day for you i don't have kids but if you did i doubt

02:33:01.060 they would you do bring your kids to work if i ran a casino or if i ran a bar and there were drunk

02:33:06.240 people everywhere i wouldn't take my kid into the bar with me either that doesn't mean me being a

02:33:09.400 bartender or me running a bar if you run a bar that has a bunch of drunk people you're actually doing

02:33:13.780 something wrong bartenders should not facilitate open drunkenness on their property even a casino

02:33:18.220 that's something that's fine but i i think that this is very this is once again sex work is is not

02:33:23.680 work it's not and it's not good and i mean if you're an obstetrician or a gynecologist would you

02:33:27.560 want to bring your kids to work to show the vagina because those are sexual organs that have

02:33:32.580 that because they're sexual organs you should no you should just keep sex away from kids and you

02:33:37.180 might show them if you run a dispensary should you bring your kids in no one's doing anything wrong

02:33:41.580 we're just buying weed it's legal is that something you want to bring your kids into that's not

02:33:44.740 necessarily wrong i think you can treat uh it would depend on this however i think that if you

02:33:50.080 are concerned about a child adopting a behavior that could be destructive to them whether it's

02:33:56.440 alcohol or marijuana then you might not show that to them but i think that shows that it's not great

02:34:01.600 for your position that there is something destructive in some way about pornography and prostitution you

02:34:06.740 wouldn't want to bring your kids to see it there's something damaging i think the other thing that's

02:34:10.440 just so sad about the conversation is we're we're you know getting down into these different cases

02:34:15.040 of how horrible these different things are by degrees and i think the reality is sex is a good

02:34:21.580 thing sex is a beautiful thing sex is an amazing thing and the problem the fundamental issue that

02:34:26.940 trent and i've been proposing here about sex work being harmful would you bring your eight-year-old

02:34:31.780 to see you have sex with your husband just to let me finish it commoditizes it it objectifies the

02:34:37.240 people involved it takes sex out of the context where sex belongs which is in love and i believe

02:34:42.500 in marriage set this like yeah so my point is that okay you just said that bringing your child to work

02:34:47.200 because sex work is bad would you bring your child in while you and your husband have sex of course

02:34:50.960 for the same reason for the same reason i wouldn't bring you guys bad but that's because

02:34:55.040 the reason that it's bad is because i wouldn't bring my kid in to watch me have sex you wouldn't

02:35:02.380 bring your kid in to watch you have sex in this great loving wonderful proper use of sex either

02:35:07.380 that doesn't even i'm not doing work when i'm having sex with my husband i'm expressing love i'm

02:35:11.200 not being paid by him i'm expressing love so then why why won't you bring your child in there

02:35:14.840 because it sex is private between two people that's how it's designed and that's what it should be

02:35:19.460 i mean they're asking and that's that's one of the reasons why pornography is so

02:35:22.960 harmful and one of the reasons why sex because because we can confidently say exposing children to sex

02:35:29.340 is bad but it just is because they're that's something their brains are not prepared even

02:35:34.680 marital sex though even yes because marital sex belongs between the people not so i don't think

02:35:39.720 it's a good argument to say that because children can't come with you to your porn site children

02:35:43.800 can't come with you into your bedroom either the point of asking that question and trent going along

02:35:47.420 that line of reasoning was to show there is a difference between the work of the noble work

02:35:51.960 right of being a janitor and i would say to look down on people who work in a fast food restaurant or

02:35:56.560 look down on a janitor to say that they just want to get out of the job it's a horrible job

02:35:59.040 yeah they're difficulties but to say it's a horrible job there's nobility to that work

02:36:02.940 there is not nobility to selling your of your body to someone else this is just putting your morals

02:36:08.960 on there's this is noble there is morality around sex there's morality around sex and you would even

02:36:13.260 agree with that you would even agree that there is some morality around sex would you not what do

02:36:16.660 you mean yeah of course there's some morality around there's some morality around janitors

02:36:19.860 there's some morality to being a fast food worker right you have to there's certain regulations so far

02:36:24.380 the only morality i've been able to ascertain from both of you is that there should be consent

02:36:28.320 between two adults is that the only morality that you believe exists around sex that's a huge

02:36:32.400 starting point yes is that the only morality that you believe exists around sex i i can't answer yes

02:36:36.980 that because i'm sure we could think of some exceptions or there might be some other qualifier

02:36:39.680 well you've thought about it a lot clearly and we're at this debate well yeah but if you're going

02:36:42.640 to ask me a hypothetical like what if when you have sex with somebody it causes the fusion of two

02:36:45.840 atoms and a hydrogen bomb experience i don't know in general i think most most i think most morality is

02:36:51.200 going to be built around a reciprocation of consensual respect for other people okay so how about

02:36:55.220 consensual incest among adults how if you want to do it if you have a really hot sister then go

02:36:59.860 for it and there's no harm there you go i have a question related to that so incest is i got a

02:37:04.580 question and bestiality is okay i don't think we should be doing any of those harm to animals if

02:37:09.860 an animal's consenting then bestiality is okay but i don't think an animal i think i would rather live

02:37:13.380 there's no way there's no way for the animal to consent just like there's no way for a child to

02:37:20.340 consent trent was trying to be like oh but we do all these other experiences we shouldn't do that

02:37:24.420 i think and you said oh which one's worse it depends it depends some of the experiments we

02:37:28.180 do to animals are horrible can i literally take out their ovaries we do can i play frisbee with a

02:37:32.820 dog i would rather i would rather if i was you know i think sometimes even having sex with animals

02:37:38.020 is better than some of the shit we do to animals like moving their ovaries around killing them

02:37:41.940 literally killing them in order to does a dog consent to being trained what does a dog consent

02:37:48.100 to being potty trained wait a minute are you saying that you're saying you're saying that you're saying

02:37:52.420 that sex with animals is not as bad as killing them what do you mean did you just say that killing

02:37:56.980 them is worse i think killing animals is it depends right it depends what you think say that one

02:38:01.860 more time what do you want me to say just the way you said it wait like what did you say killing

02:38:06.420 animals is worse than no i'm saying sometimes the experience anyway you can bite the bullet yes

02:38:10.740 i think probably generally yeah why what's the next question how could you possibly flip that

02:38:14.580 do you disagree do you think that having sex with an animal is is worse than killing yes yes it is

02:38:19.460 worse because animals are non-rational beings that we can eat there's nothing immoral about that

02:38:24.900 sex is for human beings and i'm sorry you guys so you think the sex because we're not religious

02:38:30.580 so you think no you're not saying you're an insane person so wait who is the sex worse

02:38:34.980 for versus the killing worse for are you just looking at the perspective of the human and not

02:38:37.620 the animal at all or who is it no i'm talking about the act you're reframing it as it what

02:38:42.420 causes more or less harm no no i'm talking about you said sex for an animal is worse than killing

02:38:47.780 the animal i'm asking you it's not just for an animal i think i'm asking the act of killing an

02:38:53.060 animal is sorry the act of sex with an animal is morally worse than the act of killing the animal

02:38:59.700 so the and the only thing that has any moral perspective in your eyes would be the human

02:39:03.940 yes because you not the only thing there are ways to treat animals that are immoral

02:39:08.420 like animal torture killing them the is it is it immoral it can be immoral to kill an animal if

02:39:13.540 you're doing it for a cruel for a cruel purpose or an inhumane way cruel in whose judgment no let's

02:39:18.740 say you're if you're stuck on a desert island and there's let's say that we're i would like to i would

02:39:23.620 like to finish if you're stuck on a desert island and you i was just talking about stuck on a desert island

02:39:28.340 it's very obvious like you're killing an animal to eat it for burgers because it tastes good and it

02:39:31.620 feels good no here's the example okay if you kill if you're stuck on a desert island and you find a

02:39:36.340 wild pig there and you kill it to eat that's not morally wrong if because you want to satisfy hunger

02:39:42.500 if you're on the island and it turns out you're just horny and you use the pig to satisfy that yes

02:39:47.220 that is morally worse is it morally worse if you just hunt to kill an animal just for fun is morally

02:39:52.340 worse than what then is it morally worse to kill an animal because you just want to hunt for fun

02:39:56.740 then yeah two people go into the forest one guy's hunting with a spear one guy's hunting with his

02:40:00.420 dick who's more immoral there the guy that stabs the pig and kills the guys that runs the animal

02:40:04.020 fucks it is he gonna kill which one is more moral well if his dick is big enough maybe i'm

02:40:08.100 asking no i want to answer i want to answer what's more unethical the guy hunting with a spear the

02:40:11.300 guy hunting with a dick why is the guy that throws this spear he's more ethical to kill the

02:40:14.340 animal than it is it is gravely much more gravely depraved to have sex with an animal than to kill

02:40:20.660 it in a slightly more delicious frame it's not answering the question and the reason for that

02:40:24.500 and the reason for that is what the reason for that is that you want to eat the animal

02:40:28.740 our position is that our position is that that's what this view leads to our position is that sex

02:40:33.620 with animals is always wrong my understanding of your position is that it's only potentially wrong

02:40:38.340 because this animal can't consent i asked you can your dog is your does your dog consent when you

02:40:44.980 train him to uh use the go to the bathroom not any more than your child consents to it okay so

02:40:50.660 you're saying that you can train your the dog doesn't consent to some things the dog you're you're

02:40:55.300 saying the dog is a child and that's why it's wrong to have sex with a dog i'm saying that that's

02:40:58.980 your position that if we're talking about consent the way we know it informed consent i don't think

02:41:02.740 there's any evidence to show that a dog can give you informed consent no back to my other example can

02:41:08.660 kids work for the police can kids work for the police kids can't work in general no can dogs work for

02:41:13.220 the police yes okay so it seems like it's a difference there you can place them in a dangerous

02:41:17.860 life-threatening situation for the common good of society and we see nothing immoral about that

02:41:22.900 what's wrong with sex with them they don't consent to work within the work yeah they if they can't

02:41:27.780 consent to sex they can't consent to work for the cops but we see they can work for the cops so why

02:41:31.860 can't they do the lesser harm what's the lesser harm sex because they could die in their jobs in the

02:41:36.820 police force i i mean if if there was some evidence out that dogs working for police officers and

02:41:42.820 stuff was like really bad like that's the thing with animals it's really because we don't know

02:41:46.740 what they're able what they understand what's good for them what's not good for them if there

02:41:49.940 was evidence that working for police officers was really causing a lot of harm to dogs then i would

02:41:54.820 say that's bad we shouldn't have that you need a social uh you need a scientific paper to tell you

02:42:00.100 whether it's good for animals for people to have sex i just said it's not i never said that it's good

02:42:05.140 for i just said that i just said that there's a lot of fucked up shit you said oh well there's all this

02:42:08.820 let's say we do to animals we should do why not have sex with i'm saying we shouldn't do any of

02:42:12.340 the fucked up shit to animals that's my position what's inconsistent about that let's say hypothetically

02:42:16.980 there's a small handful of dogs who die in the line of duty they're just like the most dangerous

02:42:21.780 job is logging should humans not be able to but but the point of where we're the point the question

02:42:26.900 here is why is it okay to employ a dog without their consent but to your point consent is important

02:42:33.700 my point is that we shouldn't be doing why a lot of harm to animals because i never said that having

02:42:39.220 sex with them is okay i also said that testing on them testing the limits of your moral belief and

02:42:44.020 what i'm saying is you're saying it's okay for dogs to work what is your what are you saying that i

02:42:50.020 disagree with what are you saying that i disagree with i just don't understand what you're saying

02:42:53.220 i finish my question you're saying that it's okay for a dog to work for the police even if there's

02:42:57.380 maybe a teeny bit of harm but largely speaking you want them to be harmed but it's okay for a dog to

02:43:00.660 work for the police but it's not okay for a dog to do sex work for for a human being yeah because

02:43:07.140 they don't consent for sex work they don't all about work to the police so why would it why is

02:43:12.260 it it's not all about okay with sex work it's not all about what so you're saying that because we

02:43:17.300 allow dogs to work i'm asking you a question i'm looking my my position is this i'm trying to

02:43:21.300 understand your moral compass if there is any action that we're doing especially if it's not

02:43:25.220 producing a good to society because i think that you think that sex work produces a tremendous

02:43:29.140 good you keep talking about how good it is yeah so i don't let's say that there are people that

02:43:33.620 enjoy sex with animals and there are people who enjoy sex with animals yes and your argument so

02:43:37.860 far is we don't not okay we don't need we let me just finish it's not okay because the dog doesn't

02:43:42.100 consent the dog does not consent to work for the police why is it not okay for a dog to do sex work

02:43:49.220 because i think that when you're talking about working for the police those dogs actually their lives are

02:43:54.660 better a lot of what what if they're doing what if they're treated like a king in their sex work job

02:43:58.420 if no that's the thing if i had any evidence that having sex with these dogs is something these dogs

02:44:02.820 enjoyed and liked i would say it's fine oh dog dogs seem to get pretty they seem to get pretty humpy

02:44:07.460 about yeah that's the thing i'm i care about the harm to the animal that is my position my position is

02:44:12.820 about harm to the orgasm if the adult yes if if this is my question this is my thing if we can show that

02:44:19.220 there is a harm to the animal being done then i would say it's bad this is my position if we can

02:44:23.780 show that there is no harm or that the dog enjoys it or that the dog is better off if we could show

02:44:27.700 that that was what's going on with bestiality so you are okay with bestiality as long as it appears

02:44:32.340 that the animal i didn't say it appears that's the problem is as long as the animal orgasms i didn't

02:44:37.860 say that either well what then how then i don't think right now that's why i said i don't believe it i

02:44:42.820 don't think we should do bestiality right now because we have no way of knowing i don't think

02:44:45.700 orgasm because people orgasm when they get raped too that's not a good way to determine whether

02:44:50.340 something police officer in general it seems that he does if we're looking at what seems that he does

02:44:54.340 in general when we're looking at when we're looking at what is a dog like what what things can a dog

02:45:00.020 have that makes it seem like their life is better and if we there was any way to show that if you

02:45:03.860 fuck them all the time and they're enjoying it and it's making their lives better i would say go for

02:45:07.860 it doesn't have to well it doesn't have to be penetrative bestiality we understand the

02:45:11.140 immorality of it even things of you know when the dog uh arouses a person's genitals things like

02:45:16.260 that and i'm not pulling this out of thin air like i said earlier there peter singer a famous

02:45:20.100 philosopher was sharing this and defending it on his twitter he's a world famous philosopher this is

02:45:24.660 not and when you search for this stuff you find it everywhere people might say oh it's why are you

02:45:29.220 bringing up this fringe thing why this fringe thing well look homosexual pornography was probably

02:45:33.780 fringe 80 years ago and the reason another reason why consent is such a um is such a weak foundation

02:45:41.620 for sexual morality as its whole whole you know saying oh as long as there's consent we're good

02:45:46.260 is you can chip away at it from every other angle too and animals we just went through this exercise

02:45:50.900 we can chip away at it for children i mean we've drawn this line 18 17 16 do you have any arguments for

02:45:56.660 adult consenting adults or is it all children and animals that you have to go to

02:46:00.660 i've made arguments several times and you know what you said it again about why sex is not just

02:46:07.460 about consent sex is about so much more than consent sex is about love sex is about intimacy

02:46:12.180 and sex is about the potential to bring life into the world so but that's what's your argument

02:46:15.300 that's for you that's for how sex is designed jasmine whether you like it that was the way it's

02:46:20.100 designed and that's the way it's supposed to work then we wouldn't all be deviating away from

02:46:23.380 earlier i said even destiny admitted this earlier saying that that's the design of sex even if

02:46:27.060 it's a design of sex inevitably can bring about emotional connected of course it can bring about

02:46:32.260 that but inevitably also it can it can i agree that it can but it doesn't have to design but it

02:46:37.940 doesn't have to if this was the design then there wouldn't be so many people that want to

02:46:41.940 deviate from it and do deviate from if this was just a design right we didn't just malfunction

02:46:46.180 and decide actually i don't want this this isn't working out for me let me try these other forms

02:46:50.100 if this was the way it's designed right food is designed to for us to eat we don't you know use it

02:46:54.980 any other way the reason we use sex that's like saying we our bodies are designed for example to

02:47:00.100 have a certain amount of salt and sugar probably uh but think about it tons of people eat way more

02:47:06.660 salt and sugar than their bodies were designed to handle because we live in a time when salt and

02:47:11.060 sugar and fat we have unlimited access to it that we didn't have for thousands of years it's bad it's

02:47:18.180 the process are donuts bad and in in too much in excess yeah and i think pornography if you use

02:47:23.860 it in a way that impacts your life then you shouldn't do it if you're catholic you probably

02:47:28.100 shouldn't watch porn the results seem pretty bad and if you care about your partner that doesn't

02:47:32.100 mean that porn is bad just like the donut and the bag of chips is not bad because in moderation it

02:47:36.740 doesn't seem to have these effects where same thing with porn where there's less than five percent

02:47:40.820 of people that even report having these problems and a lot of them tend to be religious and moral

02:47:44.500 incongruence is the number one predictor of having these issues those people shouldn't use

02:47:48.100 it doesn't make the actual thing bad yeah i don't think it's about being religious per se or not i

02:47:52.740 think it's about that has a huge but that has a huge impact i think it has an impact because

02:47:56.180 typically if that's human nature then how come such a small percentage of people have an issue

02:48:00.420 with jasmine let me finish typically people who are religious try to ascertain and live by a

02:48:07.540 certain moral code that's more than just make sure there's consent okay and so that's where you seem

02:48:13.220 to have a rub and you're just saying well they're just religious no they're people that have taken

02:48:16.740 the time to understand themselves and try to understand others to say more than consent is

02:48:21.780 what's good for me you and society the position of trend tonight i would have this position even

02:48:26.020 without being catholic and before but my question is this my question is the vast majority of people

02:48:31.380 so i have actually probably less people than when you look at porn can enjoy processed foods can enjoy

02:48:36.180 all this in moderation it doesn't affect the vast vast majority of people are consuming porn and you

02:48:40.500 can't show me where it harms them and then you know why and let me explain because you think sex is

02:48:45.220 is beautiful in between two people but that's not an answer i want to know what the outcomes are

02:48:49.220 with the majority of a lot of time yeah and we actually i have we could spend a lot more

02:48:52.900 you actually made our point that people do they they're not dying from processed foods but if you

02:48:57.700 look at the average american who's eating them they're really suffering from a lot of things from

02:49:02.020 negative health rates they're not dying much the same way to say that pornography and prostitution

02:49:06.020 is bad for society it doesn't have to make you a debilitated wreck that can't do anything you're

02:49:10.660 just less healthy when it comes to sexual interactions with other people so the average

02:49:14.740 porn watcher is less healthy in what ways like where are you getting this well how are they less

02:49:18.740 study of the 22 studies that show that there's an increase in aggression for younger people and i have

02:49:23.860 a study that shows that 20 of all relationships consider a point of conflict the porn use of one of the

02:49:30.100 the partners and if 20 percent of relationships so the prostitutes involved in the prostitution

02:49:34.260 industry and the harm that they are the or if i showed you evidence 20 of his friends committed

02:49:39.540 suicide that is a psychotic like working i don't even know like i've never heard of someone who has

02:49:44.180 30 of your friends in any industry commit suicide i don't know who you're it sounds like a very broken

02:49:49.700 industry and that's unfortunately pornography industry today or he was a secret russian assassin i do need to

02:49:55.380 uh read a couple chats and i think we have to wrap up here pretty soon so we had a chat here from

02:50:01.540 legate jr hey thank you thank you man for team d jen if the number of people identifying as sex workers

02:50:07.540 increased by five percent every year for the next decade would you say that we would be dealing with

02:50:12.900 a social contagion would sex work still be good or at least not bad chud nation for life so i mean

02:50:20.260 there's been actually a middle class shift into sex work like i think even i'm like an example of this

02:50:25.060 except even i'm like there now that it's become safer and it's become more accessible more people

02:50:30.260 are doing it and i'm not seeing that causing more harm in any way if you look at i don't see any data

02:50:35.540 showing that since the proliferation of porn especially since only fans that it has led to

02:50:39.380 any negative outcomes other than like podcasts like this that you know bring a lot of us on i think that

02:50:44.420 as more people enter the sexual marketplace so while only fans you say like it's safer yeah you're not

02:50:50.100 you're not directly under the thumb of a pimp or something like that but as more people enter the

02:50:54.260 the camming market there is a pressure they're similar to what we see among youtube content

02:50:58.420 creators that you have to do more uh outrageous things to get attention because there's more

02:51:03.220 people in the marketplace vying for that attention and so there's a pressure not maybe from a pimp but

02:51:07.700 the pressure of other people on the marketplace to do more sex acts that are uncomfortable this

02:51:12.980 yourself jasmine and one of your interviews that you had fairly recently you talked about how

02:51:16.740 you're asked to do these scripts that seem odd and that involve a

02:51:19.780 step sibling but that's that was from the beginning too and actually i do less of those

02:51:24.980 things but you're being you've been asked you don't there's no evidence that people that want

02:51:28.740 to join only fans are now feeling pressure to do because let me tell you as someone who's a very

02:51:32.180 successful only fans creator that started from nothing the goal is just exposure getting on

02:51:35.940 different social media and getting lucky it's not like oh here's a video of me the most popular

02:51:40.420 only fans creators aren't super popular because they're like hey watch me have sex with a horse now

02:51:44.020 and that's what made me super popular i think no we'll make some we'll make some popular is still

02:51:47.940 things like you know being able to insert an entire fist in the anus i have i'm a top 0.01

02:51:53.140 i have never done anything like that is amaranth the top only fans creator do you know amaranth

02:51:58.420 i think amaranth i don't i could be wrong i don't look like she hasn't even shown a nipple has she

02:52:02.740 a lot of the top only fans creators actually just do solo work nothing that crazy i have never done

02:52:07.300 anything that crazy do people do that i'm sure some people do but i don't think there's any any

02:52:12.020 correlation between those people being in fact the most successful people on only fans do the

02:52:16.500 most have you ever you do you expand your anus for clients because it's something they get off on

02:52:20.820 sync they ask me i say no all the time especially as i make more and more time is the point you've

02:52:26.500 never said on your youtube channel that you do that and that i want spread my anus yeah i mean i

02:52:30.580 can spread it but for instance a lot of people ask me to do butt plugs toys i have never in my life

02:52:35.300 done that and that's not because i don't think it's a moral i understand there are many girls that

02:52:40.420 don't necessarily when you say it's the more popular thing to do though and none of the popular

02:52:44.900 only fans creators do it then i don't understand there's there's many there's many women and girls

02:52:51.140 and men and boys involved in trafficking certainly pornography maybe not it's so hard to do trafficking

02:52:58.020 on only fans you literally have a bank account in your name can i finish and they are uh exposed to

02:53:03.940 and exploited to very degrading act actions and activities and so that's the that's the point that

02:53:09.860 we're making is that there is an appetite for that and these things create and that's why

02:53:14.900 only fans is so great because you are in complete control of what you say to do and not do and when

02:53:19.140 you look at the most successful only fans creators they are not the ones doing these most intense

02:53:23.140 things and look at them they're actually a lot of them are not successful i understand that but i

02:53:27.620 don't think there's any link and they i don't think there's any link fear that they can't have yes

02:53:31.540 and so certain things like even the nordic model has led to people being like i don't have

02:53:35.700 time i can't negotiate now my circumstances because it's it's basically yeah i think you're

02:53:39.780 living in a in a bubble of unreality you are one of the very sim you are one of the very few

02:53:44.980 of creators that can largely call the shots and many women though involved in exploitive sex work

02:53:51.940 involved in both in this country and internationally are not jasmine's the shot caller there you have it

02:53:56.500 here we got two more chats and we do got to wrap up here pretty soon we have dog shite poster 69

02:54:02.660 if people need to use artificial devices to prevent pregnancy condoms pills etc then obvious sex is

02:54:09.460 primarily designed for reproduction okay there's a comment there and then we finally have pulling it

02:54:16.340 up here in just a moment we have ibn pro is forcing an electrician to wire your house at gunpoint equally

02:54:24.660 as bad as forcing a uh s worker to sleep with you at gunpoint why why not and we'll this will be our

02:54:32.100 final thing i think i think um a criminal code would say it is worse uh forcing someone uh to

02:54:38.900 you know to do something i think for example that we have an entire category of sex crimes we don't

02:54:44.900 have eating crimes or not breathing crimes the fact that we have sex crimes that a rape that is done

02:54:50.740 when someone is unconscious and they don't they don't it doesn't cause pain is treated worse in the

02:54:56.020 law than maybe simple assault that does cause pain to a person because sex is just a very very

02:55:00.900 different thing than anything else well and it's the same reason why if you tap someone on the

02:55:04.580 shoulder in the workplace that might be seen as a normal activity hello are you there if you tap

02:55:09.140 someone on the crotch it's sexual assault there's something clearly different about sex and and using

02:55:14.500 your body for sex and then other things like you know electrical wiring or whatever it is we have

02:55:20.820 aaron martinez here fake lawyer maybe now you are refusing the crazy degrading stuff but as you hit the

02:55:26.100 wall as you hit the wall and it's coming fast and your money stream runs dry you will i don't think

02:55:31.540 so i mean i'm pretty sure i mean seven figures a year if i wasn't if i was two years you're only

02:55:36.980 two years in yeah and i've made more money than i could have made in a decade in law so i probably

02:55:41.620 what's more likely is i'll retire by the time i hit the wall and i'll live out my life like and i

02:55:46.020 know i get it i'm privileged but this is always just like a dumb argument again the argument the

02:55:50.500 the argument that i should be working as a lawyer for 50 years but this i only have a few years

02:55:54.740 it's like saying professional athletes when they hit the wall that's not the argument about what

02:55:57.860 you should do whether you choose between how much money you make as an attorney or an of the question

02:56:02.020 is is sex work good for society or bad for society i don't think there's any evidence and you just

02:56:06.260 said you're very privileged your case is extremely unique yeah but that was that was that was at me

02:56:10.740 i know so again living in on the reality of that there are many many many many other women

02:56:15.540 and children and even boys and men who are experiencing not what you're experiencing experiencing

02:56:21.860 what the statistics bear out in the pain of both prostitution and pornography but that's the thing

02:56:26.900 there are a lot of people who choose sex work because it's the best option for them and they

02:56:30.740 don't want to do those other jobs majority of sex workers they're doing sex work because they don't

02:56:34.820 want to work another job or they don't have access to another job taking this away from them that's

02:56:37.940 it's not going and that was the case of my friend joshua broom he wasn't able to get the

02:56:41.140 jobs he was looking for in hollywood and so he got sucked into the porn industry that's a tragedy

02:56:44.900 not a success story of course i would rather have everyone who's doing porn to be as lucky as me

02:56:49.380 and that's what they want to do but the reality is people take jobs that they can get people always

02:56:53.380 take the best job that they can get and for some people that is sex work just like for some a lot

02:56:58.740 a lot of a lot of people a lot of people would beg then i thought you said joshua boom was a success

02:57:04.260 story no the point was he wasn't successful in hollywood you said what you said a tragedy it

02:57:09.540 sounds like a success story doesn't he have a family he's happily married after he left the porn industry he

02:57:13.620 almost killed himself while staying in the porn industry what if he wouldn't have gone and actually

02:57:16.660 killed himself which one do you think was better i mean i'm glad he left and he lived no no let's

02:57:20.580 say they would have killed himself because he couldn't find jobs or he became homeless and a

02:57:23.460 drug addict understand his story well no i'm not misunderstanding i'm asking you

02:57:28.020 joshua broom if he had to choose the porn industry he struggled to make it as an actor in hollywood

02:57:32.100 i know you said it seven times now i know 30 of his friends killed themselves i know horrible epidemic of

02:57:36.580 suicides around him i'm asking you what if instead of getting a job in the sex industry what if he

02:57:40.020 would just been homeless and got addicted to heroin which one you think would have been better i didn't

02:57:43.060 say he was but let's say that he those are the two options which one do you think i don't think i

02:57:46.420 think you won't even engage with that hypothetical you don't think it's ever possible that could you

02:57:49.300 become homeless or do sex work these are never i think that if someone is forced into sex work

02:57:53.460 destiny because otherwise they would be homeless and on heroin that is another reason why sex work is

02:57:58.740 bad for society and we should instead work on helping people who are homeless we all agree here

02:58:02.500 i think all of us agree here we're all fans which one is worse though which one which one is

02:58:07.140 worse which one would be worse bad they're both that's not an answer to which one is worse so

02:58:10.900 they're equally bad sex is work because most homeless people by what measure of do you think

02:58:15.380 joshua bloom would have become homeless and addicted to smack do you think that he would have had the

02:58:18.660 same chance of finding a wife and kids or i know people who are former dread acts you said you didn't

02:58:22.740 answer the question all you said like well i know or i feel i don't i'm just asking a question

02:58:25.780 that's silly even if it is worse it doesn't make sex work not bad i didn't say i just wanted to know

02:58:29.860 if you can even admit this thing is worse so i'm just what should be an easy question

02:58:34.980 answer you're sitting here saying like do you think it's ethical to have a simulated child

02:58:38.500 pornography being masturbated while you get eaten out by a horse and you voted your shot at destiny

02:58:42.660 that's like saying what's worse being a hitman or being homeless i could answer that question

02:58:47.700 i can engage in that but that's worse child sexual assault material is everywhere so it's not

02:58:53.140 i was just curious you could answer questions what's worse being homeless and addicted to heroin or doing

02:58:57.060 sex work i was curious you'd rather answer that i think they're both yeah it's i think you don't

02:59:00.660 want to answer that i think it's a worse crime to be raped than it is to have to be homeless yeah

02:59:05.140 and i consider it rape because the exploitation of that that's well said let's do this um why don't

02:59:09.860 we each give you a one minute closing statement and then we're gonna wrap up the show trent you start

02:59:15.540 then lila then jasmine then destiny and then we're gonna wrap closing statement uh i'd like to thank

02:59:21.460 everyone for being here today uh man this is destiny is a lot more animated than the last time i blame

02:59:26.820 the girls on that one uh but uh destiny started animation today well it was it was it was uh

02:59:34.100 i think it was i think it was legit but you know what um i think ultimately what i would want people

02:59:39.620 to consider from this to to go and look at the data and just to ask if sex work of prostitution and

02:59:46.660 pornography are bad for society look at what it actually is not an illusion of what it is go online go

02:59:54.820 and look at the most popular search for things on porn porn hub x hamster cam sites what prostitutes

03:00:02.020 say that women so what prostitutes say that men usually request from them it's violent degrading

03:00:08.500 and so it takes sex and it cheapens it and makes it ultimately meaningless and so then it loses its

03:00:14.020 power to be that amazing bonding force that unites people together and create a new human life like sex

03:00:20.180 it makes a new person so of course it's going to attach people together intimately we don't want

03:00:25.140 therapists and doctors having sex with people sex is designed to attach people because when a baby is

03:00:30.020 born it's really good hey if the people who created this child are bonded together in some way and sex

03:00:34.900 helps to do that but if you turn sex into work it destabilizes the important role it plays in society

03:00:40.580 and it leads to degradation abuse and all the things that we've that we've listed and that's why i think

03:00:45.860 people should see past the illusion to see the ugly reality of it so and i would say of course i think

03:00:52.340 sex work um pornography prostitution is bad for society it's bad for everybody involved i think

03:00:57.620 the data not just show not only shows that but people's life experience shows that i think many

03:01:02.260 people today are dissatisfied with their dating relationships marriages struggle um we've talked

03:01:07.460 about the mass use of pornography and porn consumption and porn addiction i know that's a word that you guys

03:01:12.980 don't like but porn addiction in addition to child sexual abuse material proliferating all of this

03:01:17.540 and i think that's the consequence of forgetting the beautiful design of what sex is for and

03:01:23.300 disrespecting and cheapening sex and i think that we should actually elevate sex and celebrate it more

03:01:28.340 it's not puritanical it's actually saying um reject that viewpoint as well say sex is something

03:01:32.820 that's beautiful and good designed for love designed to bring life into the world and that's amazing

03:01:37.780 and should be celebrated and it's so sad that people's sexual experiences and their their orgasm

03:01:44.340 is now being um caught up in all of the horrific social harms that we've been talking about at this

03:01:50.500 table when instead they should be caught up in a beautiful relationship of love and that's what

03:01:56.260 yeah we're fighting for so i appreciate you guys having the conversation apologies for my cough during it

03:02:01.540 and your patience thank you for your patience with it but i hope we can i want people to be happy and

03:02:05.860 people to flourish and i think if we we see sex as a married couples to have simultaneous orgasms

03:02:11.700 pope saint john ball the second writes about that and love and responsibility the idea yeah i mean

03:02:15.300 imagine if we focus instead on healthy marriages and healthy sex and marriage and beautiful sex and

03:02:19.460 marriage instead of doesn't always be simultaneous but that's a that's a plus

03:02:25.220 do you think wait did you say can oral sex happen in marriage or is that not oral sex can happen in

03:02:29.140 marriage well you have to define those terms well i'll explain what i was going to continue with i

03:02:34.100 believe my position is that provided it leads to um you know my view of my faith is provided it leads

03:02:40.340 to the ultimate um potential for procreative act but even if you thought even if you thought that

03:02:45.300 oral copulation is fine in marriage it wouldn't follow your ethic would include paying for you

03:02:49.620 don't have to agree with me on that to say sex work is bad so yeah so i would just again thank you

03:02:55.300 everybody for coming here i would just say that this isn't to say there are no harms associated with

03:02:59.540 sex work this is just to say that just because there are some harms associated just like with the

03:03:02.900 second amendment just like with the first amendment when people societies that give people the freedom

03:03:07.140 in order to um in order to like control their sexual lives the way they see fit tend to do better

03:03:13.220 anytime the majority of the data shows that when you try to ban these things or when you try to

03:03:17.540 restrict these things or when you don't see sex work as work it leads to more negative outcomes than

03:03:21.620 good i would also say that um the way that sexual repression and and you know those types of things

03:03:27.940 seeing sex is this thing and then anything outside of that is supposed to be bad and terrible

03:03:32.020 does lead to negative consequences repression doesn't seem repression causes a lot of the same

03:03:36.420 problem people say porn does like erectile dysfunction negative body image issues shame

03:03:41.540 etc um and if you look at like the states and the areas that consume the most porn it is the most

03:03:46.980 religious states so this idea it's really fine and dandy to say sex should be this thing and no one

03:03:51.700 should have it outside it's just not the reality the reality is people do seek out this stuff and

03:03:55.780 people are going to do this and there are people who are going to be willing to provide it even if

03:03:58.900 they would rather be rock stars if they had the choice so the question is how can we make it so

03:04:03.220 that this thing is the least damaging to society possible and that is to accept it and to um not

03:04:10.100 criminalize it and demonize sex outside of marriage whatever destiny your closing statements yeah uh

03:04:17.780 thanks for the conversation um we didn't really get to it but i feel like um i feel like a lot of this

03:04:22.420 conversation uh ends up grounding out in what we view sex as being for which we didn't really talk about

03:04:27.060 it all because we kind of went into all the data in the stats um personally i think that even if

03:04:31.060 the data in the sets showed that recreational sex was good i don't think that would change either of

03:04:34.820 your guys's positions at all if if more people reported like happier sexual activities or if

03:04:40.500 marriages more people had more recreational sex i don't think that would change either of your

03:04:43.460 positions um the thing that scares me i guess about somebody being critical of a like consensual

03:04:48.740 based position figuring out if activities are moral or immoral is if they reject that framework and

03:04:52.420 instead they go with what they call their own moral framework i think that very quickly you can get to a

03:04:56.420 person saying well alcohol should be immoral there's no reason to drink ever does it really

03:05:00.180 help and it leads to all these negative outcomes like car accidents and alcoholism and abuse and

03:05:04.340 gambling is no good obviously you're wasting your money sugar is bad look at obesity rates

03:05:08.260 cardiovascular disease killing everybody video games are horrible it's a waste of time for kids

03:05:11.780 they should be playing uh sports so they should be doing things outside um there's like marijuana is

03:05:16.180 horrible the olympics are horrible the athletes are too young it does damage the body like i think we can

03:05:20.100 get into this world we can very quickly say that all of these things because we can't trace like a

03:05:23.220 particular good and we can look at all these negative outcomes we can say these things are

03:05:27.380 bad i think it's better to look at a a healthier way to build ways that we can interact with each

03:05:32.100 other in society i think that a consent-based forum where we consent to activities and if somebody wants

03:05:36.580 to sell sex and they can do it in a healthy way and somebody wants to buy they can do it healthy way

03:05:39.540 i don't think we should get in front of that or in between that transaction and be sure that people

03:05:42.740 conduct themselves the way that they want to assuming there aren't these mass horrible outcomes

03:05:45.780 happening in society that was beautiful that was beautiful thank you everybody for joining us okay

03:05:53.540 guys last call hit the like button please on your way out thank you for tuning in tonight uh you could

03:05:58.180 have been anywhere in the world but you're here with us we appreciate that uh thank you to everyone

03:06:02.660 who soup chats and donates and supports the show thank you to the uh wonderful panel for uh making it out

03:06:08.340 tonight guys really appreciate it we'll uh maybe around two maybe a different topic um if you're uh

03:06:15.300 oh let's see we're going to be live again 5 p.m pacific on sunday oh i i do want to say one thing i

03:06:22.260 want to thank you guys funny a different topic i do think it's interesting we didn't get a chance

03:06:27.300 to have any common ground but i do think like between this table a lot of us have common ground like

03:06:31.220 there's a group of people on the internet men who might say yeah the promiscuity and these sorts of

03:06:39.300 things it's okay for like it's the position between us you're saying it's okay for everybody we're

03:06:45.620 saying it's bad for everybody they're saying it's bad for women good for men i think we actually have

03:06:50.420 common ground we all agree that that's actually a bad position so i'm sorry i just wanted to throw

03:06:54.260 out there actually a common ground between us that that's an untenable position that they would have

03:06:58.580 should we just tag on an extra 30 minutes and just talk about abortion but that's a teaser we

03:07:04.420 might maybe we could have an even friendlier friendlier conversation about that and other

03:07:08.100 okay because a lot of people have been asking for another uh destiny and lila abortion debate

03:07:14.260 yeah so i'll block out eight hours anyways guys we'll be live again sunday at 5 p.m pacific

03:07:20.660 i might try to convince destiny to do one-on-one interview tonight after the show uh we'll see i don't

03:07:26.180 know what what's the your chat on your phone is that what's my that's not happening i don't know

03:07:32.340 why you keep saying this is that dg yeah what are they called ddlg uh big daddy little girl oh my god

03:07:38.580 okay okay we do what do you think if i were to ask them like can you pull out your phone like are they

03:07:42.820 down to have you do like i have i live on a dinner date at 8 30 that i'm on my way to right now is it

03:07:48.340 with a man is it with a man or a woman it's with a woman i don't i thought you i don't see i thought we

03:07:53.380 were gonna get dinner not like a date but i thought i love you good talk all right guys we'll see you

03:07:59.540 again sunday 5 p.m pacific oh sevens in the chat good night guys we'll see you uh next time

Whatever Podcast - December 10, 2023

Destiny, Jazmen Jafar VS Lila Rose, Trent Horn DEBATE ｜ Whatever Podcast #10

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