Whatever Podcast

00:00:00.000 Welcome to a special debate edition of the Whatever Podcast, coming to you live from

00:00:06.880 Santa Barbara, California.

00:00:08.040 I'm your host and moderator, Brian Atlas.

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00:00:51.200 Without further ado, I'm joined today by Michael Knowles.

00:00:54.880 He is a conservative political commentator, actor, thespian author.

00:00:59.360 Rap critic, music critic, and media host.

00:01:02.020 He graduated with a BA in history and Italian from Yale University.

00:01:06.860 He is the host of the Michael Knowles Show at the Daily Wire.

00:01:11.040 Welcome, Michael.

00:01:11.760 Thank you for having me.

00:01:12.680 Good to be back.

00:01:13.280 Good to have you back.

00:01:14.280 His feminist debate opponents are, we have Jasmine Jafar, the self-described, her words, not

00:01:21.580 mine, ho lawyer.

00:01:22.940 304 lawyer.

00:01:23.760 Excuse me, 304 lawyer.

00:01:25.960 She received her JD and has a bachelor's in psychology.

00:01:29.580 She also does porn and OnlyFans.

00:01:32.340 I do.

00:01:32.940 Hence, ho.

00:01:34.860 Have you ever litigated while?

00:01:37.460 Could you like doing this?

00:01:38.660 I can.

00:01:38.780 I still have my license, but there's no reason to make way more money.

00:01:42.440 She's joined by Farha Khalidi.

00:01:45.500 She is an online content creator.

00:01:46.920 She received a bachelor's degree in English.

00:01:49.640 And Pixie, as she goes online, she graduated from University of Florida with a triple major,

00:01:55.300 getting her BS in psychology and a BA in philosophy and economics.

00:02:00.100 So, this is sort of a sort of generalized debate here we're having.

00:02:05.060 We have Michael Knowles here, conservative versus, if you guys want to articulate your

00:02:12.060 political leanings, feel free, maybe one by one, but I suspect you're both, you're

00:02:17.040 all, or excuse me, you're all progressive, left-leaning, liberal-leaning?

00:02:22.580 Yeah.

00:02:22.960 Depends on the issue, but I would say center, left to left on most things.

00:02:26.580 Okay.

00:02:26.800 I generally consider myself a progressive, overall.

00:02:30.800 Okay.

00:02:31.280 And do you all consider yourselves feminists?

00:02:34.060 Depending on the definition.

00:02:36.120 I hope none of you bamboozled me here.

00:02:37.900 Okay, so anyways.

00:02:39.060 So, I think a good jumping off point here, and I think we'll start with you guys, and

00:02:43.900 then we'll have Michael respond.

00:02:45.860 What is feminism?

00:02:48.380 I think the most common definition is the social, political, and economic equality between

00:02:55.040 the sexes.

00:02:55.700 So, according to that definition, I would definitely identify as a feminist.

00:02:59.140 Okay.

00:02:59.620 Yeah.

00:02:59.960 In general, I agree with that definition.

00:03:02.240 I believe that we should not be discriminated unfairly on the basis of sex.

00:03:06.260 If I had to add any addition to feminism.

00:03:09.420 I would agree with all that, and then I would also add on just kind of adding more cultural

00:03:12.600 currency to just female spaces, women's interests, and just women's proclivities in general.

00:03:16.960 Well, that last, if that's what it were, but I don't, I actually think feminism does the

00:03:25.120 opposite of that in practice, and frankly, going all the way back to the beginning of

00:03:28.320 feminism in the 18th century, probably my definition of feminism would be Gloria Steinem's

00:03:33.400 definition.

00:03:33.920 She was the very famous feminist of the second wave, which is that a woman needs a man like

00:03:38.380 a fish needs a bicycle.

00:03:40.080 Feminism is the idea that men and women are not complementary.

00:03:44.160 They're not different and helpful to one another, but they're identical and indiscernible.

00:03:48.940 That they're, you know, there are some superficial differences.

00:03:51.540 You ladies might be a little prettier perhaps than I am, but all in all, we're basically exactly

00:03:56.580 the same.

00:03:57.520 And I don't think that's true.

00:03:59.220 I think it's a false view of human nature, and I think it's harmful to everybody, and

00:04:03.780 especially harmful to women.

00:04:05.220 Right.

00:04:05.540 I've worked with Gloria Steinem's company, Women's Media Center, for like four years back

00:04:08.940 in college.

00:04:08.960 My condolences.

00:04:11.020 And obviously, that's like a more crass interpretation of, I think, what she meant by that, which I

00:04:16.500 think is more so, she's more so characterizing the fact that women in general, when they're

00:04:21.720 taught how to self-actualize, it's typically tied to contingency on a man and getting married

00:04:26.120 and starting a family versus men.

00:04:27.760 When they're told the ways to self-actualize, it doesn't necessarily require a woman.

00:04:31.580 So obviously, her saying a woman needs a man the way a fish needs a bicycle sounds crass,

00:04:35.360 and like she's being a bit misandrous, and obviously, some radical interpretations may

00:04:38.940 take it that way.

00:04:39.900 But I think what she's trying to say is that, women, you can like define yourself and your

00:04:43.160 career and your potential outside of simply marriage and children.

00:04:46.120 What do you mean by the phrase self-actualize?

00:04:48.900 Just like live up to your potential, you know, use your rational faculties, you know, use the

00:04:53.100 design of your potential in your brain.

00:04:55.200 I agree that I want to live up to my highest potential.

00:04:59.240 I want women to live up to their highest potential.

00:05:00.780 I want total human flourishing.

00:05:02.160 But I think you've given away the game on the radical and liberal foundation of feminism,

00:05:06.600 which is the notion that it comes purely from the self.

00:05:09.920 It's a matter of self-liberation that I can do totally self-sufficiently as if I were an

00:05:15.480 island unto myself.

00:05:16.280 But no man is an island unto himself.

00:05:17.820 And so I didn't make myself, I didn't create the family that I was born into, I didn't

00:05:22.820 create the community that I was born into, the country that I was born into.

00:05:25.340 I take the opposite view of the liberal view.

00:05:28.040 The liberals say that man is fundamentally an individual.

00:05:30.480 The conservatives would say, no, man is a social creature.

00:05:33.340 You know, man is a political animal.

00:05:34.840 And so the irony, I think, of someone like a Gloria Steinem saying that we, or insinuating

00:05:41.740 that we just want women to live up to their fullest potential, is that the way that she

00:05:47.160 and the feminists have done it is to totally erase women.

00:05:50.580 And I think this goes back way further than the second wave.

00:05:53.640 You sometimes hear conservatives, the squishy kind, they say, we love the feminism, but only

00:05:58.580 the, you know, the second wave, not the third wave.

00:06:01.000 Or we like the first wave, not the second, or whatever.

00:06:02.640 We're on like the 10th wave now.

00:06:04.140 But it's been a problem from the beginning.

00:06:06.280 Even Mary Wollstonecraft, who founds feminism with the vindication of the rights of women,

00:06:12.100 she writes that providence has created men in such a way that they are more inclined to

00:06:20.260 virtue, and they're more endowed with virtue.

00:06:22.080 And I think that's exactly what Gloria Steinem thinks, because the way that second wave feminism

00:06:27.700 actually was practiced was it denied the virtues, particular to women.

00:06:32.160 And it said the only way to be virtuous and to flourish is to be a man.

00:06:35.700 So if women want to be virtuous and flourish, they got to dress like men, and they got to

00:06:39.980 have the same attitudes towards sex as men, and they got to work in the workplace exactly

00:06:43.680 as men do, and they just have to pretend to be men.

00:06:46.080 But I think that's very disrespectful to women and harmful to them, because if a woman

00:06:50.980 tries to be a man, she's always going to fail.

00:06:52.900 Just look at the Penn swim team now, when the men compete against the women swimmers and

00:06:56.620 defeat them.

00:06:57.240 This is why some feminists wisely are turning against the transgender ideology.

00:07:01.360 I think women are great, and women have a wonderful nature, and when women are fully

00:07:06.040 women, they can really flourish.

00:07:07.860 And when they pretend to be men, they get miserable.

00:07:10.140 I think what a lot of feminists would push back on or worry about is this idea that we have

00:07:15.400 ascribed gender to certain things that are kind of agendered.

00:07:18.540 So for example, when it comes to the workplace, the idea that like, oh no, a woman must stay

00:07:23.720 at home, going out and working as a man's job, seems to be something that a lot of people

00:07:28.000 have contention with, because it seems like, I'm not saying that women don't have a place

00:07:32.420 at home, taking care of children, but it doesn't seem like it should necessarily be limited

00:07:37.080 to just that.

00:07:38.020 So for example, even like throughout history, you still have women who, despite taking care

00:07:43.520 of home, also have like side jobs or side hustles or stuff like that to help contribute

00:07:47.520 to the family.

00:07:48.580 So I think this whole idea that's like, oh no, like women are just trying to be men.

00:07:52.060 And sometimes I wonder, oh no, we are just saying that this is for a man to do, even

00:07:56.380 though it seems like there's more opportunity for women to participate in those arenas as

00:08:01.140 well.

00:08:01.420 I think you've just made my point though, which is that you say throughout history, including

00:08:05.200 long before feminism ever came onto the scene, women did plenty of things, you know, in addition

00:08:09.960 to just being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, right?

00:08:12.060 They had, they were involved in their community.

00:08:14.200 They had side hustles, as you put it.

00:08:16.600 So they did all these things.

00:08:17.960 I mean, I think of the most famous anti-feminist American of the 20th century.

00:08:21.020 It was Phyllis Schlafly.

00:08:22.660 Phyllis Schlafly had six kids.

00:08:24.460 She was a housewife.

00:08:25.860 She said the only person whose permission she needs for her political activism is her

00:08:29.720 husbands, which irritated feminists to no end.

00:08:32.420 She's one of the most important political figures of the whole century.

00:08:34.980 She single-handedly killed the Equal Rights Amendment, traveled all over the country, one

00:08:38.420 of the most vaunted figures in the American right.

00:08:41.780 She was able to do a lot of things in public, but she recognized that her particular role,

00:08:47.700 that her husband never could have, that no man on earth ever could have, even if he kids

00:08:51.500 himself, is to have children, to be a woman, to be graceful, to do the things that men can't

00:09:01.180 do.

00:09:01.560 And so she can do things beyond that as well.

00:09:04.540 But if you erase the particular advantages of women, then women are put at a disadvantage.

00:09:11.320 I mean, the problem is women were also excluded from doing a lot of things.

00:09:14.220 So I don't think anyone here thinks there are no differences between men and women, but

00:09:17.240 there's a lot of overlap as well.

00:09:19.140 And while men and women may be different on something on average, to look at a woman like

00:09:23.420 I think you and some of your other conservatives are under fire for saying, oh, if it's a female

00:09:27.400 pilot, I'm automatically going to assume that this person is incompetent.

00:09:31.100 I've never said that, though if an airline tells me that they are prioritizing DEI over

00:09:37.160 merit in the cockpit, I would probably book another airline.

00:09:40.480 Okay, and that's, I guess that's a little different.

00:09:41.940 I get what you're, I get that.

00:09:43.000 But my point is like to say women are just emotional, more emotional than men.

00:09:46.440 That may be true on average.

00:09:47.440 But to then look at a woman and just be like, automatically, I'm going to assume this woman

00:09:51.140 is more emotional.

00:09:52.620 I think that isn't, that's the last one.

00:09:54.740 So why is it true on average, though?

00:09:56.220 It may be true on average because we're different.

00:09:57.620 I've never said we're not different.

00:09:58.800 Right.

00:09:58.900 But the problem is to say we're different and then put us into categories and be like, there

00:10:01.800 can be no overlap.

00:10:02.960 Women have to do this role and men have to do this role.

00:10:05.080 That's, I think, what feminism is pushing back on.

00:10:06.900 What you're arguing for is a kind of feminism that says, actually, all the differences between

00:10:14.120 men and women, that's totally true in the aggregate, you know, in these two different

00:10:18.400 types.

00:10:19.060 But on rare occasion, there's going to be someone.

00:10:21.460 It's not that rare.

00:10:21.900 Like, let's say like, okay, gender roles.

00:10:23.380 Like, let's say most people, like, let's say 70 to 80% of people will fall into natural

00:10:27.200 gender roles.

00:10:27.720 But then there's still 20% of our population that may not.

00:10:30.900 And do we make a society where we force that 20% into these roles?

00:10:34.680 Or do we allow choice?

00:10:35.740 I think a lot of feminism, the cornerstone of feminism is choice for women.

00:10:39.200 You can't stay home.

00:10:39.800 I'm not so sure about that.

00:10:40.760 I'm not so sure.

00:10:41.380 Because there was a famous debate between Betty Friedan, who was the prominent American

00:10:45.040 feminist, and Simone de Beauvoir, one of the most famous feminists of the 20th century.

00:10:49.720 It was in 1975.

00:10:51.240 And Betty Friedan said what you said.

00:10:53.460 She said, look, I think we should give women a choice.

00:10:56.080 Maybe they want to go out into the workplace.

00:10:58.060 Or maybe they want to stay home and raise their kids.

00:10:59.740 But they should have a choice.

00:11:00.640 And Simone de Beauvoir, who was a more consistent and intelligent feminist,

00:11:04.680 said, there can't be a choice.

00:11:06.540 And the reason there can't be a choice is that if given the choice, most women would

00:11:10.700 stay at home.

00:11:11.400 And if most women stay at home, women will not be free.

00:11:14.160 If we want true women's liberation, women must be forced to be free.

00:11:19.120 And Friedan recoiled from this because she knew it wasn't going to play well in Peoria.

00:11:22.640 But Simone de Beauvoir had the right point.

00:11:24.960 And I think the more consistent feminists have agreed with her.

00:11:27.540 I don't know.

00:11:28.140 I mean, feminism has, like, it's gone so many different directions.

00:11:30.740 So to pick the feminists that we don't agree with for this debate, I don't know if that's

00:11:35.140 conducive to.

00:11:36.360 Also, I'm not necessarily sure when you're saying, like, oh, no, most women would stay

00:11:40.860 at home.

00:11:41.300 That's a choice that they would have.

00:11:42.440 Because when you look at, like, the uprisings of, like, feminism or when it gained the most

00:11:45.760 traction, it was post-war era, partly because of the reason why is because during these war

00:11:51.440 eras, men went out, they were drafted, they had to go fight, et cetera, et cetera.

00:11:55.080 Women were expected to take up more traditional male spaces, work.

00:11:59.700 And when the men came back, yeah, what ended up happening is that a lot of women did not

00:12:03.780 want to leave the jobs that they had.

00:12:05.180 They wanted to keep the somewhat level of financial independence that they were able to

00:12:08.760 gain.

00:12:09.180 And that's why we see, like, these huge, like, feminist uprisings during those periods

00:12:12.460 of time.

00:12:12.860 So it seems to me, if you're saying that most women would stay home, that just wouldn't

00:12:16.800 happen.

00:12:17.280 Like, women would have not had, like, these feminist movements go forward.

00:12:20.400 Well, the feminists didn't want to leave their jobs.

00:12:22.820 But women broadly perhaps did.

00:12:25.000 So anecdotally, people write in a lot and they tell me, Michael, you know, at least while

00:12:29.280 my kids are little, I'd love to stay home and raise them.

00:12:31.380 Maybe I'll go back to work after.

00:12:32.400 But I just can't.

00:12:33.580 You can't raise a family in America, for the average person today, on one income.

00:12:37.540 And that's a result of women entering the workforce and wages decrease, which is why not only

00:12:41.580 the radical left, but also the more commercially minded right wing was in favor of that.

00:12:46.560 It's the same reason they're in favor of mass migration.

00:12:48.100 It just lowers wages for people.

00:12:50.240 A lot of women, however, seem to feel not that they have the choice to go to work, but

00:12:55.020 that they have to.

00:12:55.860 And this is expressed in a famous study that came out of UPenn and was published by Yale

00:13:00.280 in 2008, which was the paradox of declining female happiness.

00:13:03.740 And I love the way this study opens up.

00:13:05.100 Right in the abstract, it says, despite the past 35 years, I'm paraphrasing, but despite

00:13:10.260 the past 35 years showing so much marked progress and improvement in the lives of women, women's

00:13:16.480 happiness, according to this meta-analysis, has declined, both absolutely and relative to

00:13:22.300 men.

00:13:22.520 So it's not even just that everyone got more miserable because of, I don't know, a bad

00:13:26.260 economy or something.

00:13:27.220 Women, in particular, became less happy, despite all these objective improvements to their lives.

00:13:32.560 So to me, the obvious rejoinder to that is, well, maybe those objective improvements,

00:13:37.880 namely feminism, that's the thing that happened between 1973 and 2008, maybe that wasn't an

00:13:44.440 objective good.

00:13:45.120 Maybe that was just illusory.

00:13:46.520 Well, to me, the obvious rejoinder of that is that women are becoming disillusioned with

00:13:49.520 the life they had prior.

00:13:50.340 They're leaving the cave, so to speak, allegorically.

00:13:52.660 And also, I don't think you should use self-reported happiness as a metric of justice or any objective

00:13:57.160 good, because you can plot self-reported happiness with pretty much any variable.

00:14:00.440 Like, highest reported crime, violent crime in the United States, also is directly correlated

00:14:04.700 to self-reported happiness.

00:14:06.080 Does that mean one causes the other?

00:14:07.220 No.

00:14:07.440 Does that mean we should think that violent crime is a good...

00:14:08.340 What do you mean by that, highest violent crime is a good...

00:14:10.300 I'm just saying in the periods of time when we've had the most violent crime in the United

00:14:13.080 States, there's also a correlation between highest rates of self-reported happiness.

00:14:17.180 Well, not according to the survey I just cited, right?

00:14:19.300 If happiness has been declining steadily, especially for women since 1973 to 2008, you had a major

00:14:24.400 crime spike in the early 90s, but you didn't have a major spike in happiness.

00:14:27.220 So, perhaps there's some survey that you're referring to in some cities somewhere, but

00:14:30.820 it wouldn't...

00:14:32.140 But also, even women living traditional lifestyles are seeing a downfall in happiness.

00:14:36.080 So, why is it that the women who are still living the type of lifestyle that you would

00:14:38.620 probably prescribe to women are also having a decrease in happiness?

00:14:41.600 I'm not convinced of that.

00:14:42.720 Also, the Institute of Family Studies is a big...

00:14:44.140 And there's a lot of data out there that actually children make you less happy.

00:14:46.840 So, there is this problem happening where we're like, okay, why are people less happy?

00:14:50.420 But we don't know.

00:14:51.280 We don't know what it is.

00:14:52.000 But I'm not so sure.

00:14:52.220 And then you would expect, then, that the, like, if you looked at the most unhappiest

00:14:55.620 countries, you would expect Canada, the Nordic countries, Scandinavian countries, because

00:14:59.360 they're very egalitarian, and you're not seeing that they actually have higher happiness levels

00:15:02.880 than they do here.

00:15:02.980 Well, they have the highest rates of alcoholism in the world.

00:15:04.820 You think of Denmark, Norway, Iceland in particular.

00:15:07.480 So, I don't know how happy they are.

00:15:08.500 Now, you're changing.

00:15:09.180 But if we're going to just go by what makes people happy...

00:15:11.040 I don't think alcoholics are the happiest people.

00:15:12.040 I don't know.

00:15:12.620 I think there are arguments to be made about, like, community, and those things may make people

00:15:16.440 less happy.

00:15:16.900 But this idea that it's because women aren't having children, when we also have data, a

00:15:20.100 lot of data that shows children, especially in the United States, has the biggest happiness

00:15:23.600 gap.

00:15:24.060 And then we're seeing that other countries that are more feminist are also not having, like,

00:15:28.220 if you compare, like, Scandinavian countries to, like, the East.

00:15:31.740 Like, my parents are immigrants from Iran.

00:15:33.440 Iran has really high unhappiness levels.

00:15:35.080 A lot of countries...

00:15:35.860 Naturally.

00:15:36.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:15:36.860 So, I don't know if you can say that this is causing that, right?

00:15:40.680 Well, yeah.

00:15:41.060 Nordic countries also have much more homogeneity, which is correlated with political happiness.

00:15:45.640 But so, they're all of those differences.

00:15:48.840 But I think the point about children making you unhappy and the point about leaving the

00:15:54.060 cave, I think those are both a little bit of a cope, because they're belied by the fact

00:15:58.520 that if it were just that women were coming into their own now and they were recognizing

00:16:03.360 the oppression of which they were not conscious previously, then why would they keep getting

00:16:07.440 less and less happy?

00:16:08.700 You know, at a certain point, aren't you supposed to turn the corner and become more happy in

00:16:12.080 your independence?

00:16:12.920 But that's not what's happened.

00:16:13.780 For 35 years, it just gets worse, worse, and worse, including relative to men.

00:16:17.360 And then for children, you look over the past, what, 70-plus years now, 74 years, since

00:16:22.660 1950 to present day, the marriage rate has dropped by 60%, and the birth rate has dropped

00:16:29.480 by 50%.

00:16:30.980 So, just looking at the whole society, we are having many, many fewer children than we

00:16:35.920 were before, and yet we're much less happy.

00:16:38.060 Even, even, like, places like Pakistan are having less kids.

00:16:41.160 Sure, I'm just pointing out, you're saying that having fewer children makes you happier,

00:16:44.160 and I'm saying we're having many fewer children, and Americans are much less happy.

00:16:47.120 And you see this even beyond just random surveys.

00:16:49.420 You can't link that.

00:16:50.560 I kind of want to push back on this idea that we've gotten more unhappy as time has progressed,

00:16:54.800 because at least to my understanding, what's happened in the last, like, you know, 20 or 30

00:16:58.420 years is an increased awareness of, like, mental health and what that means.

00:17:01.600 So, it's not necessarily that people were really happy before and now suddenly are miserable.

00:17:06.040 It's just that now we're actually having data where people can talk openly about their

00:17:09.840 mental health, unhappiness, and not be as stigmatized as before.

00:17:12.860 If we look at the 1950s and even, like, housewives around that time, we see, like, there is actually,

00:17:17.620 like, a huge rate of, like, narcotic usage and basically, like, prescriptions to that level.

00:17:22.020 So, I'm not necessarily, if I would go as far to say, yeah, we've gotten unhappiness this

00:17:26.620 time, we've gotten more unhappy as time has gone by.

00:17:28.980 I would say more likely, oh, no, we've been able to properly report, measure, and assess

00:17:33.860 mental health as time has gone by.

00:17:35.220 Sure, I mean, listen, I'm very inclined towards your view that social scientific studies are

00:17:41.080 bunk.

00:17:41.540 I mean, there's a major replication crisis.

00:17:43.460 I think it's all ridiculous.

00:17:44.840 I will cite those social science stats when they serve my argument, because why not?

00:17:49.840 That's what we do these days.

00:17:50.760 But I agree.

00:17:51.420 I'm skeptical of measuring happiness and all the rest of it.

00:17:53.880 But on the mental health point, I think here, we do have some pretty firm data, and it

00:17:58.020 contradicts the argument you're making, which is, right now, one in five middle-aged women

00:18:04.300 in the country is hooked on anti-depression drugs.

00:18:06.620 On any given day, they're taking them.

00:18:08.240 Women are two and a half times as likely as men to take these depression drugs.

00:18:12.740 It is ubiquitous at this point.

00:18:15.060 And the rates of taking depression drugs are going up.

00:18:18.400 It's getting much worse.

00:18:19.240 So, if we're not getting less and less happy, why do people keep taking more and more depression

00:18:24.660 drugs?

00:18:24.880 Why were housewives in the 50s downing, like, a bottle of wine at lunch every day?

00:18:28.200 I'm just saying, now we're seeing...

00:18:29.380 I'm not so sure.

00:18:30.120 I mean, these are anecdotes that...

00:18:31.160 We're supplanting self-medication now with actually, like, medically-backed drugs that

00:18:34.620 actually help women with their mental health issues.

00:18:36.280 I don't know that they help.

00:18:37.160 It's also now that when you're sad, you just go to the doctor and they give you antidepressant

00:18:39.940 drugs.

00:18:40.180 I don't know how much more depressed people actually are, other than the fact that they're

00:18:43.540 just dishing them out to everybody.

00:18:44.920 And they're dishing them out more and more and more.

00:18:46.280 Sure, you can blame the pharmaceutical industry or the medical industry.

00:18:48.720 I'm just pointing out, you know, in order to argue against these social science statistics,

00:18:55.040 one has to just turn toward unfalsifiable anecdotes and memes.

00:18:59.640 You know, oh, the housewives were all miserable in the 50s.

00:19:01.680 They were secretly, you know, drinking behind their husbands' backs.

00:19:04.360 But, I don't know, maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

00:19:06.320 All I have are the data available to me.

00:19:07.960 Well, the data is just saying that more people are on antidepressants.

00:19:10.640 It's not telling you why.

00:19:11.980 It's not telling you what caused it.

00:19:13.400 It's not telling you...

00:19:13.960 Depression, presumably.

00:19:14.940 Well, that's what we're debating here, is what could have caused it.

00:19:18.040 You're saying, oh, it's...

00:19:18.900 No, but I'm not saying, you know, maybe they hate their husband, maybe they hate their kids,

00:19:21.660 maybe they don't like, you know, the weather in their town.

00:19:23.320 Like, I think ADHD is a great example of this.

00:19:25.320 Anyone now can just be like, oh, I have trouble focusing.

00:19:27.380 Does everyone have ADHD, or are people just getting these drugs?

00:19:30.120 Like, you know, these are questions that we should ask before we jump to a conclusion.

00:19:33.100 No, I agree.

00:19:33.660 Look, I think that they're pathologizing a lot of ordinary aspects of human nature.

00:19:38.700 But I think part of the reason that we do that is because we're so radically misinterpreting

00:19:42.380 human nature, which brings us right back to feminism.

00:19:44.080 The clearest example of this is the transgender argument, which is all anyone ever talks about

00:19:49.660 these days.

00:19:50.200 I'm frankly sick of it.

00:19:51.460 We know that men and women are different.

00:19:53.260 But that shows you, you know, a major confusion about human nature.

00:19:58.200 If a man can become a woman, then we have been really wrong about anthropology for a long

00:20:04.120 time.

00:20:04.480 And most reasonable people know a man can't become a woman.

00:20:06.420 But that error in human nature goes back much earlier than transgenderism.

00:20:13.600 You know, this is why I have pity for the feminists who are trans-exclusionary radical

00:20:18.480 feminists, because they don't realize that it was their own ideology that led to this.

00:20:22.900 The premise of transgenderism is that men and women are basically the same, so much so

00:20:26.700 that one can become the other.

00:20:27.620 But if that's true, you know, then that has to come from somewhere.

00:20:33.520 And where it came from was the redefinition of marriage, to say that a man and a woman

00:20:37.160 is the same as a man and a man is the same as a woman and a woman.

00:20:40.220 And that comes from the sexual revolution, and that comes from feminism, which says a woman

00:20:43.500 needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

00:20:45.600 So, yeah, I agree.

00:20:47.040 These errors in human nature can lead to all sorts of problems.

00:20:51.540 Did you say transgenderism is people thinking that there's no differences, and why would

00:20:55.520 they need to transition?

00:20:56.680 That's a great question.

00:20:57.900 I don't think that's what transgenderism believes, that there's no difference between

00:21:01.200 men and women.

00:21:02.440 Transgenderism believes that men and women are so similar that one can become the other,

00:21:09.240 which is different than the feminists to say men and women are so similar that a woman

00:21:12.700 can do anything a man can do.

00:21:14.280 But transgenderism takes that principle to the extreme, which is men and women are so similar,

00:21:19.260 they're not complementary, sex is not immutable, it's not an inseparable accident of being

00:21:24.180 as an Aristotelian or St. Thomas Aquinas might say, but no, it's actually just kind of a

00:21:29.420 social construct, and it's so socially constructed that I can go down to my doctor and have him

00:21:33.000 reconstruct my chest, and all of a sudden I've magically become the opposite sex.

00:21:37.460 That error comes from feminism.

00:21:40.040 Okay, before we pivot to transgenderism, can we go back to the happiness feminist conversation

00:21:43.480 and tie it up?

00:21:44.260 So I wanted to ask you, do you think that should be the ultimate good and the metric for which

00:21:47.940 we base our justice system and our overall societal progress on is self-reported happiness?

00:21:52.960 Well, I don't know even what you mean by societal progress.

00:21:55.480 I mean, justice is a habit of virtue that inclines the will to give to one what he deserves,

00:22:00.220 right?

00:22:00.520 So it's about desserts.

00:22:02.700 Right.

00:22:02.860 And so we protect certain rights and we enforce certain laws, at least we used to,

00:22:05.740 we don't really do that as much in this country anymore.

00:22:07.420 And an aspect of political justice would be human flourishing.

00:22:12.700 So when we talk about happiness, I'm all, I'm very interested in happiness, but I'm interested

00:22:17.460 in happiness in the way that Aristotle's interested in happiness, which is eudaimonia, you know,

00:22:21.600 a way to live the best possible life.

00:22:24.200 And I think that we can know something about that through our faculties of reason, which are

00:22:27.760 objective.

00:22:28.520 And if reason weren't objective and at least somewhat reliable, we couldn't have self-government.

00:22:32.700 Now, the way that happiness is often used in our modern culture is just, well, it's hedonism

00:22:38.780 like the utilitarians, right?

00:22:39.940 Just means getting pleasure and avoiding pain or is just totally subjective to the point

00:22:45.280 where you say, well, don't yuck my yum.

00:22:47.280 You know, what's, degustibus non disputandimest, you know, I, maybe I like this and you don't

00:22:51.820 like this.

00:22:52.500 Well, sure.

00:22:53.320 I mean, restaurants have menus for a reason, but there's, there must be some limiting

00:22:56.980 principle here.

00:22:57.520 We must know something about what is conducive to human happiness.

00:23:01.740 Uh, and if we don't, then how do we have self-government?

00:23:04.740 So I want to go back.

00:23:05.480 I completely agree.

00:23:05.740 I just don't know if self-reported happiness, um, is more congruent with the subjective reports

00:23:09.820 of happiness or that eudaimonia that you're referring to.

00:23:12.040 Sure.

00:23:12.300 It's just the best we've got.

00:23:13.460 I totally agree.

00:23:14.300 Something you said in the beginning about individualism, like, do you prefer sociocentric

00:23:18.100 countries?

00:23:18.760 Do you not love America?

00:23:20.140 What do you mean sociocentric?

00:23:21.280 Like countries where like, you're like, oh, part of the problem with feminism is so focused

00:23:24.720 on the self.

00:23:25.360 Well, I think that is one of the cornerstones of like Western civilization is instead of being

00:23:29.880 It's a very liberal view of Western civilization.

00:23:31.320 Yeah, which I think is one of what makes Western civilization so wonderful.

00:23:34.920 Like we are one of the only, I think we are, like the only one founded on individualistic

00:23:38.840 rights, like principles that we have.

00:23:40.180 I don't think we really are founded that way.

00:23:41.640 I think that's what people say we were founded on now.

00:23:44.700 But you know, you hear a phrase like liberal democracy.

00:23:46.880 That's the popular way to describe our country now.

00:23:49.060 That phrase appears basically nowhere in the English language until the 30s.

00:23:54.040 Then it jumps a little bit in the 40s.

00:23:55.700 It really doesn't take off in English literature until the 80s.

00:23:59.340 America, the founding fathers didn't think of us as a liberal democracy.

00:24:02.440 They were influenced by some Enlightenment thinkers, John Locke and Montesquieu say.

00:24:07.020 But they were also influenced by the classical tradition.

00:24:10.480 And the classical tradition is one of the common good.

00:24:13.560 Not in the communist sense of that.

00:24:16.320 But again, I don't...

00:24:17.680 They thought the common good was best pursued by having individual rights instead of like

00:24:21.880 that's one of the reasons we founded ourselves on a separation of church and state.

00:24:25.000 You have the right...

00:24:25.380 We were not founded on a separation of church and state.

00:24:27.380 I mean, we can get into that.

00:24:28.940 I think we...

00:24:29.320 It's incidental to this point, but it appears in no founding document, there's one errant

00:24:35.920 letter from Thomas Jefferson to a friend that mentions the phrase, and the Treaty of Tripoli

00:24:41.060 makes some little knock on Christianity to appease the Muslim pirates who were capturing our sailors.

00:24:45.880 But when the First Amendment established no church at the national level, the reason for

00:24:51.840 that is not that there was a firm separation of church and state.

00:24:54.060 It's because there were already established churches at the state level, in many states that

00:24:57.540 persisted for decades after the Constitution.

00:24:59.180 The difference to God in the whole thing is that you can't have a test for political

00:25:03.520 office.

00:25:04.160 No, I'm just saying...

00:25:04.780 They purposely left it out.

00:25:05.780 You're saying that they didn't need to found this state?

00:25:08.100 They refer to religion explicitly, and they say we won't have a church at the national

00:25:11.060 level because we have churches established at the state level.

00:25:13.880 Wait, it says that?

00:25:14.860 Where does it say that in the Constitution, that we're only doing this because we have

00:25:17.760 churches?

00:25:18.000 Not only doing that, but we can see it in history and in the ratification debates.

00:25:21.920 That's why in a number of states for decades after the ratification, you had established

00:25:26.380 churches.

00:25:26.720 And this changes through 19th century jurisprudence, unfortunately, but that has nothing to do

00:25:31.940 obviously with the founding of the country.

00:25:33.500 Furthermore, you have in the national anthem, which also comes from the 19th century, the

00:25:38.420 notion that this be our motto and God is our trust, which is from a forgotten verse of

00:25:42.660 the Star-Spangled Banner.

00:25:44.680 You also have it in our money.

00:25:46.140 You also have it in the benedictions and the invocations of the Continental Congress and

00:25:50.620 the Constitutional Convention.

00:25:51.560 So you also have it in the speeches of George Washington.

00:25:53.980 And so, you know, John Adams says that the American government will be based on the Christian

00:25:58.180 morality.

00:25:58.760 John Jay, first chief justice of the United States, says the same thing.

00:26:01.580 He goes even further.

00:26:02.140 Yeah, and I'm sure you know there's a bunch of quotes I can pull out from the other side.

00:26:05.560 There aren't, really.

00:26:06.760 There aren't.

00:26:07.240 There's one from Thomas Jefferson.

00:26:08.280 God took the Bible and cut out every reference to the supernatural and kept the rest for

00:26:12.960 wisdom.

00:26:13.600 Thomas Jefferson did make a commentary on the Bible that, and his views were a little

00:26:19.120 odd, I grant you, but I've already granted to you that in a private letter, Thomas Jefferson

00:26:23.040 advocated for a separation of church and state.

00:26:24.960 And our Constitution does, right?

00:26:26.780 No.

00:26:27.280 Yes, there's a separation of church and state.

00:26:29.860 The first amendment.

00:26:31.680 What does, where do you see?

00:26:33.300 Congress shall make, no, I mean, I'd like to pull it up.

00:26:35.060 We can read it word for word.

00:26:36.200 Right.

00:26:36.320 But, I mean, like, it is there.

00:26:38.820 We didn't just all misinterpret this.

00:26:39.480 Let's just read it.

00:26:40.300 Yeah.

00:26:40.460 Listen, I didn't go to law school, so.

00:26:42.040 Okay.

00:26:44.480 While she looks that up, one of the other questions I wanted to get into.

00:26:48.260 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting free exercise thereof.

00:26:54.420 Right.

00:26:54.940 So, now, where do you see a separation of church and state?

00:26:57.200 Well, when you say Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

00:27:00.960 that is that separation.

00:27:02.140 Right.

00:27:02.160 And so, what is the Congress?

00:27:03.800 The federal government.

00:27:04.680 Is that what you're saying?

00:27:05.120 It's the lawmaking body for the federal government, right?

00:27:07.680 Yes.

00:27:07.960 But if, like, if the state of California starts to be like, actually, in all our schools,

00:27:13.060 we're going to start enforcing Christian ideology in our public schools, that would be unconstitutional

00:27:17.780 under this First Amendment.

00:27:19.200 In fact, that was the way that basically all schools operate in the country until the middle

00:27:22.620 of the 20th century.

00:27:23.820 Until the Supreme Court said that you cannot have.

00:27:26.100 You can't have prayer in schools and you can't teach the Bible.

00:27:27.500 Because of the First Amendment.

00:27:28.520 Well, no.

00:27:30.900 The middle step was the incorporation of the Bill of Rights to the states.

00:27:34.280 Okay, sure.

00:27:34.620 But that's been incorporated unless you don't want that part.

00:27:37.060 Right.

00:27:37.260 But you're just saying the country was founded on the separation of church and state.

00:27:39.940 I'm saying that that wasn't even brought up as a matter of jurisprudence until many,

00:27:44.260 many decades later.

00:27:45.140 Because it didn't have the words.

00:27:45.300 And then it wasn't enforced in schools until a century after that.

00:27:48.400 Yeah, because no rights were, right?

00:27:50.240 That's what the incorporation was.

00:27:50.780 I guess I'm just confused.

00:27:52.220 Do you believe the Bill of Rights is like a founding document or not?

00:27:55.340 The Bill of Rights is a list of 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

00:27:58.540 Yes, and do you believe it is a founding document when it comes to basically the United States

00:28:02.340 as a whole?

00:28:03.020 Yeah.

00:28:03.480 Yeah.

00:28:03.860 Okay.

00:28:04.300 So then, to me, I don't understand why the conversation is continuing.

00:28:07.600 Because if you believe the Bill of Rights is integral to the founding of this nation

00:28:11.580 and the Bill of Rights of First Amendment states that no religion shall be established.

00:28:15.920 Yeah, I think you're misunderstanding what that phrase meant to the people who wrote it

00:28:20.260 and the people who lived under that government.

00:28:22.400 It just seems to me, where would the misunderstanding be?

00:28:25.880 I think you're misunderstanding that the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states at the

00:28:31.700 time and the lack of an establishment of a church at the national level does not imply

00:28:35.360 that there cannot be an establishment of a church at the state level, which we know for

00:28:39.160 a fact there was at the time of ratification.

00:28:41.340 I guess I am a little bit confused because I don't understand if the Bill of Rights is part

00:28:45.780 of the federal, basically, legislator, right?

00:28:49.060 It's part of the federal law.

00:28:50.720 But we have a federal system.

00:28:52.060 Yeah.

00:28:52.340 But the whole point of creating the Constitution, and according to the Federalist Papers as well,

00:28:56.980 is that, oh, no, we need some overarching law that goes throughout the nation so that

00:29:01.300 way that we can be a united nation.

00:29:02.880 Not exactly.

00:29:03.580 So federalism refers to the principle of subsidiarity, to the view that there would be different levels

00:29:10.820 of government.

00:29:11.840 Frankly, all the way down to the individual, right?

00:29:13.580 And the family and the community and the state and the national government.

00:29:16.140 So certain powers and rights were reserved to the federal government, but they were relatively

00:29:21.240 small at the ratification of the Constitution.

00:29:24.520 And then many, many rights and laws and powers were reserved to the states, and then some were

00:29:30.120 reserved to the people.

00:29:31.460 So do you think it's bad that the First Amendment now applies to all the states?

00:29:34.420 Let's try to keep it a little more focused on this.

00:29:37.740 So I have a question for you guys.

00:29:39.540 One, do we live in the patriarchy?

00:29:42.560 And if so, and I want everybody to respond, do we live in the patriarchy?

00:29:46.620 And if so, is the patriarchy good or bad?

00:29:50.460 We'll start with Farah, come this way, and then we'll have Michael.

00:29:54.320 I think it's such semantics at this point.

00:29:56.880 As of now, I'm going to say I don't think we necessarily live in a patriarchy.

00:30:00.540 Do I think women are marginalized in a disproportionate way in relation to men?

00:30:03.760 I'm 100%, but would I use the term patriarchy as a blanket term?

00:30:07.320 Not necessarily.

00:30:09.240 Yeah, I guess it depends on how a person is defining patriarchy.

00:30:12.660 Well, let's maybe start off by defining patriarchy.

00:30:15.840 Okay.

00:30:16.380 If we're defining patriarchy as a system of power where men uphold most of governance and

00:30:22.420 social power, I would say that there is an argument to be made that we currently live

00:30:27.280 in a patriarchy.

00:30:28.100 Whether that's good or I personally, I'm at the thought that that's bad, but yeah, it

00:30:34.640 depends on what definition you guys want to use.

00:30:36.400 I'm open to it.

00:30:36.920 Do you guys concur with her definition of patriarchy?

00:30:40.580 Can you repeat it?

00:30:41.220 Sorry.

00:30:41.840 Basically, it's a system of power where men hold most of the capital.

00:30:47.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:48.840 Capital, social, political power.

00:30:51.060 So obviously we know historically this is true, and if we're looking at a global level, are

00:30:54.740 we going to refine it to the United States?

00:30:57.000 Because these are going to be very different conversations.

00:30:59.060 And West, we can also consider West.

00:31:00.480 Yeah, and the West.

00:31:00.620 So I would say like, and you see this, that like it's more prevalent in countries that

00:31:04.240 are poorer, that have less technological advancement, as industrial machinery became

00:31:09.480 a thing, and education and all that.

00:31:11.360 And so now I don't think like in the West, I'm not going to sit here and say like women

00:31:15.060 don't have equal rights.

00:31:16.760 I think some of that history in certain ways, like in maybe culture and our perception of

00:31:22.180 men and women is still here, but no.

00:31:24.880 And I would say that it hurts men and women to the same degree, in some ways.

00:31:29.560 Yeah, I would say that.

00:31:30.800 Okay.

00:31:31.300 So Farah, you don't think that there's a patriarchy, or are you unsure?

00:31:35.320 I think the word patriarchy is a bit harsh, and I don't know if I would apply it to how

00:31:39.560 we live in the West now.

00:31:40.540 Okay.

00:31:40.880 But you two do believe there is a...

00:31:43.360 There's an argument to be made depending on what level you're talking about when it

00:31:47.700 comes to power or how much power you have to have to establish patriarchy.

00:31:50.720 I guess I kind of think more than you do that we live in a patriarchy, not as a matter of

00:31:58.140 law.

00:31:58.740 The law says we don't.

00:32:00.280 The law, if anything, is inverted.

00:32:01.740 We're closer to a matriarchy, except we don't have kids anymore, so there are fewer mothers.

00:32:04.860 But as a matter of practical living, I think we still do live in a patriarchy.

00:32:10.640 I think men wield probably more power than we ever did.

00:32:14.440 It's just in a very perverted way.

00:32:16.860 So men wield the power to have casual hookups.

00:32:21.300 Women statistically tend to not prefer casual hookups.

00:32:25.120 Men tend to like them quite a lot more.

00:32:27.120 And women prefer a longer-lasting relationship.

00:32:29.700 That's what I would agree with.

00:32:30.560 I think that's what I meant by cultural currency.

00:32:32.320 I think men have the monopoly on the cultural zeitgeist, and then women move in lockstep

00:32:36.040 to men's desires and the male gaze.

00:32:37.780 So I would agree with that.

00:32:38.500 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:38.880 In terms of politically, I don't know if I would agree as much, but I agree with that

00:32:42.320 definition.

00:32:42.740 Totally, totally.

00:32:43.420 And so, you know, the irony, though, is that all of that sexual revolution came about because

00:32:47.840 of feminism, you know, but it didn't really give women, I think, what they thought they

00:32:52.620 were going to get.

00:32:53.380 I think, if anything, it gave men more power.

00:32:55.080 I remember thinking about this many years ago when I was in college, and the cook-up

00:32:58.580 culture was really burgeoning.

00:33:00.100 I thought, is this the greatest trick that men ever played on women?

00:33:04.560 That these women, who call themselves feminists, think that they're going to be empowered by letting

00:33:09.500 men just use them whenever they want and then cast them aside and go sleep with some

00:33:13.080 other woman?

00:33:13.980 Girl power.

00:33:14.740 I completely agree, and I actually don't think women are the culprit or feminists are

00:33:17.860 the culprit today of hook-up culture.

00:33:19.240 I think it's more like neocons, trad cons, pickup artists, the one who says that you need to

00:33:22.700 unpack the female psyche.

00:33:23.880 The traditionalists don't support hook-up culture at all.

00:33:26.200 I say as a proud traditionalist.

00:33:28.600 Yeah.

00:33:28.860 I would say that also there's a distinction between the moral question.

00:33:31.700 If you're a woman and you hook-up, that's part of what the sexual revolution was there

00:33:35.480 to do, to give women autonomy, to be able to consent to things, to not have a scarlet

00:33:39.240 letter attached to them forever because they decided to do a hook-up.

00:33:42.960 And then the other question is, is it healthy?

00:33:45.020 No, not the same.

00:33:46.000 Of course they do.

00:33:46.560 If you look at social attitudes.

00:33:47.760 You just said you get called a 304.

00:33:48.540 Yeah, but if you look at social attitudes in the last 20 years on things like casual sex,

00:33:51.820 basically, it's moving in this direction.

00:33:53.680 The whole reason you have a show is because most people think like me and you have something

00:33:56.680 to fight against.

00:33:57.480 I don't think so.

00:33:58.020 I think I have a really popular show because, you know, a lot of people are living under

00:34:02.500 our cultural zeitgeist, but they realize that it's wrong.

00:34:05.460 Some people, but I mean, if you look at polling and stuff, I mean, especially if you look at

00:34:08.620 where like the institutional power is, like in media and academia and stuff, like we have

00:34:13.080 that power.

00:34:13.500 We definitely influence the culture.

00:34:15.100 And if you look at polling and you look at like 30 years ago, 40 years ago, how people

00:34:17.800 felt about casual sex.

00:34:19.120 So I agree that there's a moral question and what's actually good for you.

00:34:22.480 And the truth is there is a small number of people like women tend to have more restricted

00:34:26.440 sociosexuality than men do.

00:34:28.060 But there are some women.

00:34:29.160 What do you mean by sociosexuality?

00:34:30.640 Sociosexuality is how open you are to casual relationships.

00:34:33.760 There's like an inventory and they like look at your desire, your behavior, your attitudes

00:34:37.900 towards it.

00:34:38.500 And men typically are more open to it than women are.

00:34:40.880 But there is some like, you know, there's like 10% or 5% of women who still, and I don't

00:34:45.260 think there's anything wrong with those women going out and doing that.

00:34:47.900 But I do think we need to put more of an emphasis on like, okay, the moral question, whether

00:34:51.860 you're a whore, if you do this, that's separate from, is this good for you?

00:34:54.900 Is this going to make you feel good?

00:34:56.020 Is it separate?

00:34:57.220 I think it's separate.

00:34:58.340 Why would it be separate?

00:34:59.400 You know, if morality is concerned with what is right and what is wrong, and we are rational

00:35:04.900 beings that recognize that some things are better than other things, then wouldn't it

00:35:09.620 stand to reason that if you do more good things and fewer bad things, if you pursue more virtue

00:35:14.480 and less vice, that you would be happier and flourish?

00:35:17.140 Maybe, but are you, is eating a donut immoral?

00:35:19.500 You know, it depends if you've had like five donuts already.

00:35:21.600 Well, okay, no, we just have a different, like to me, I don't think like eating fast

00:35:25.140 food is immoral.

00:35:26.060 It may not be good for you, but it's not immoral.

00:35:28.220 And so, and there isn't like this stigma associated with it where it's like, oh, nobody, like,

00:35:32.480 you know.

00:35:32.860 No, sex is obviously, I think, even more fundamental to human nature than donuts are.

00:35:36.980 And I like donuts plenty.

00:35:38.600 But, you know, sex is very, very important to human nature.

00:35:41.720 That's true.

00:35:42.120 In part because the action is what propagates the species, or in our sterile age, does not

00:35:46.560 propagate the species.

00:35:47.660 But, you know, you point, you're a trained lawyer, passed the bar exam, and you have spoken

00:35:52.060 publicly about how, because, you know, you've made other career choices, you really can't

00:35:56.440 work in the law.

00:35:57.300 A firm would fire you.

00:35:58.400 So it would seem to me, putting aside the justice or injustice of that fact, that there

00:36:03.880 is still a major stigma associated with sexual decades.

00:36:05.960 But a lot of firms would actually hire me over you, probably still.

00:36:08.660 Well, I don't have a lot of you.

00:36:09.440 No, but my point is that, that some of the things you say are so controversial that with

00:36:14.740 how, with how, I think I saw a little bit clip of your last thing where you said like

00:36:18.100 Yale would like deny you even went there.

00:36:19.680 I think they want to burn my diploma.

00:36:21.420 That's my point is that.

00:36:22.260 That's a very liberal place.

00:36:23.240 Is that society is shifting and we're becoming more okay with things like sex work, but we're

00:36:27.620 still not there a hundred percent, but we still are very quick to cancel misogyny.

00:36:32.020 And I'm not agreeing with this.

00:36:32.800 I wouldn't say Yale is representative of the broader society though.

00:36:35.660 You know, it's a kind of an, I love my alma mater.

00:36:36.940 I mean, if we're talking about law firms, if we're talking about good, like big time

00:36:39.920 law firms, like they would have a harder time.

00:36:42.240 Wait, may I, just a clarifying question.

00:36:44.900 So you're, you're thinking broadly speaking, people will find a conservative political pundit

00:36:50.960 more objectionable than a.

00:36:53.480 In academia.

00:36:54.960 I totally agree.

00:36:55.940 In academia.

00:36:56.460 Okay.

00:36:57.040 I just.

00:36:57.700 In higher education and in, and in like corporate America.

00:37:01.800 Yeah.

00:37:02.060 Okay.

00:37:02.220 I think you're probably right about that.

00:37:04.020 Tells you, it tells you a lot about the society.

00:37:05.580 Yeah.

00:37:05.840 You can argue that, but to say like, like there are firms out there that would still take

00:37:09.780 me over you.

00:37:10.540 But in reality, look, I mean, it's a funny line and there is a lot of truth to that,

00:37:14.680 but you know, a lot of these videos that go viral from this show, in fact, and in the

00:37:19.960 broader like red pill manosphere stuff, it's women who are being shamed for, for their

00:37:26.420 sexual behaviors.

00:37:27.400 And putting the justice or injustice of that aside for a second, those videos get a lot

00:37:31.460 of views.

00:37:31.920 Those, those attitudes are still very, very prevalent.

00:37:34.520 And I think it's because no amount of feminist indoctrination is going to alter basic aspects

00:37:40.520 of human nature.

00:37:41.560 And I think men broadly don't want the, their wives to be promiscuous and look, everybody

00:37:48.080 has a past.

00:37:48.740 And I think there's all sorts of redemption and repentance.

00:37:50.640 And I think that can all be great, but, but no one, you know, as La Roche Foucault said,

00:37:54.240 hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue.

00:37:55.860 No, no one, I think really deeply desires that.

00:37:59.920 And, and, you know, I don't.

00:38:00.820 Well, the men who watch the show are going to be, are going to selection bias there because

00:38:03.700 they're going to be more likely to not desire that.

00:38:05.340 They're probably going to spend more time on the internet.

00:38:06.840 There's all these, you know.

00:38:07.320 It's a very popular show though.

00:38:08.200 But like this idea that men want a body count of zero is not really replicated, I think,

00:38:13.260 in normal society that like you, you may not, they may not like you, obviously there's

00:38:16.940 a spectrum here.

00:38:17.560 Like your girl doing porn is different than having three bodies, right?

00:38:21.420 Like different, there's going to be different levels of men who are okay with one and not

00:38:24.820 the other, but we do have a culture war for a reason because there is enough people on

00:38:29.320 this side who are like, actually, there's nothing wrong with having casual sex.

00:38:32.460 Actually, there's nothing, whatever about doing OnlyFans.

00:38:35.540 And we, I think trad cons can be super happy living a trad con life, but you guys are the

00:38:40.140 ones telling us we can't be happy and there's nobody out here on our side.

00:38:43.620 No, no, look, we're observing certain facts of society and mentioning them.

00:38:47.020 And, but also we're recognizing that the liberal view of society that we're all just

00:38:52.600 individuals and, you know, don't yuck my young men, that doesn't really work because we live

00:38:56.960 in society.

00:38:57.760 So, you know, I keep bringing up the trans thing because it's just the clearest example

00:39:01.820 of all these different topics we're talking about.

00:39:04.940 The pro-trans argument was, just let me dress up in a skirt.

00:39:09.240 How does it bother you?

00:39:10.320 I'm doing it in the privacy of my own home.

00:39:11.760 Stop, you know, yucking my young.

00:39:14.820 Okay, fine.

00:39:15.340 Okay, well, if I'm going to wear a skirt, you're going to call me Shelly.

00:39:19.580 All right, Steve, like, I'll call you Shelly.

00:39:21.320 Fine, whatever.

00:39:22.620 Okay, and if you're going to call me Shelly and I'm going to wear a skirt, then I'm going

00:39:25.500 to go use the women's bathroom.

00:39:26.600 Now, hold on, Steve.

00:39:27.740 Sorry, Shelly.

00:39:28.540 Like, you can't, my daughter goes into the women's bathroom.

00:39:30.920 Well, I'm a woman and I say I'm a woman.

00:39:32.420 You have no damn right to say that I'm not a woman.

00:39:34.540 Well, no, I do have a right to say you're not a woman.

00:39:37.460 I do have a right to suggest that you not behave like a weirdo in public.

00:39:40.440 And I do have a right to say you get out of my daughter's bathroom because I've

00:39:43.680 got faculties of reason and I live in society.

00:39:45.700 And to quote John Stuart Mill, who's one of the most important liberal thinkers of all

00:39:50.080 time in his essay on liberty, he points out, you know, we want a lot of protections for

00:39:55.400 privacy, but there are not really any totally private vices.

00:40:00.680 You know, if a guy is just a big drunk and he just drinks all the time, maybe he does

00:40:05.060 it in his own home and it doesn't bother you.

00:40:06.500 But then maybe he neglects his family and his family can't eat.

00:40:09.100 And then maybe he doesn't go to his job and maybe he doesn't pay his taxes and maybe

00:40:11.840 he doesn't contribute to the community that he lives in.

00:40:14.600 And maybe we have a right in the political community to put some limits on individual

00:40:20.140 autonomy because it's degrading to individuals and you get all the individuals together.

00:40:24.380 That's your society.

00:40:25.540 Yeah.

00:40:26.020 I don't know.

00:40:26.620 I just kind of want to push back on the idea that like basically being trans is the same

00:40:31.040 as being a drunkard.

00:40:32.000 And I think the reason why is because I'm saying they're the same.

00:40:35.200 They're just both a bit deviant and suffer defects of will and intellect.

00:40:39.380 Okay.

00:40:39.600 I guess my question to you is when does something deviant become harmful?

00:40:43.800 Because there's a lot of deviant behaviors out there.

00:40:46.400 I don't think most of them are harmful.

00:40:47.780 I don't think most of them are bad.

00:40:49.280 But obviously you think that there's something bad about being trans and being drunk enough

00:40:53.700 to do that analogy.

00:40:55.540 So my question is when does deviants become harmful?

00:40:58.260 Do you believe it should be enforced through law or are you just talking social?

00:41:01.140 Like, do you think like we should put in, because there's a lot of rights that we hold

00:41:04.500 up, even when they're like free speech.

00:41:06.460 People say mean words, but we still are like the right is so important.

00:41:09.380 Guns, you know, they cause a lot of-

00:41:10.260 Sometimes.

00:41:10.800 So we have limits on speech.

00:41:11.640 Of course.

00:41:12.000 I think I agreed with everything you said.

00:41:13.420 There should be limits.

00:41:14.200 The question is where should those limits be and how should they be enforced?

00:41:17.480 And that's my question.

00:41:18.120 We should probably arrive at them through prudence and very carefully, I think.

00:41:21.420 I don't think there's like a right five bullet points on a napkin answer to this

00:41:24.220 as some ideologues do.

00:41:25.460 I think we have prudence for a reason.

00:41:26.720 And it's the, sorry, my dear, it's the consummate political virtue.

00:41:29.520 But also when you say, should it be enforced through social norms or through the law, I'm

00:41:35.540 not sure there's a total firm distinction here.

00:41:37.800 It's very fashionable of the libertarians to say politics is totally downstream of culture.

00:41:42.720 So yeah, sure, that's true in as far as it's true.

00:41:46.260 But also the law is a tutor.

00:41:48.100 And so the law creates certain incentives and disincentives.

00:41:51.600 If you're going to punish certain behaviors, you're actually going to get less of that behavior.

00:41:54.720 And if you encourage certain behavior, you're going to get more of that behavior.

00:41:57.520 So it comes back to the transition.

00:41:59.160 Well, I mean, there's still a big difference.

00:42:00.640 Like, I actually like what you guys do.

00:42:01.920 I watch it because I like to hear different opinions.

00:42:03.780 No, I like to listen to different opinions and stuff.

00:42:06.320 But I have no problem with you getting on and trying to advocate for like getting rid

00:42:09.520 of things like no fault divorce.

00:42:10.680 Now, if you guys pass the law, like I think you should have the complete right to do that,

00:42:13.900 convince people.

00:42:14.440 But passing the law is a very different thing.

00:42:17.320 Well, you would have to pass a law if you're talking about a law, right?

00:42:20.580 Yeah, but I think it's much different to try to get people to not get divorced or advocate

00:42:25.460 for that position.

00:42:26.260 Well, look, I think everybody, unless you're the most hardened, radical feminist maniac,

00:42:31.800 you don't like divorce, right?

00:42:33.980 You're not saying we want more divorce.

00:42:35.380 But I think people should have the freedom.

00:42:36.980 Right.

00:42:37.260 So you're just, you're merely talking about the right.

00:42:39.680 And so I guess my question then is, put aside legal divorce for cause.

00:42:47.260 What is gained by no fault divorce?

00:42:50.160 What's the good of that?

00:42:51.500 Oh, there's a bunch of good when it comes to no fault divorce.

00:42:54.560 Previously, when we had fault divorce, people would literally have to like lie or commit

00:42:59.280 vices in order to be able to get divorced.

00:43:01.940 So whether it was like...

00:43:03.120 Why don't they just not get divorced though, if there's no fault?

00:43:05.900 The problem is if they decide to like not get divorced, usually that leads to like higher

00:43:09.900 rates of unhappiness.

00:43:10.920 It leads to people having like more tension within their marriage.

00:43:14.000 It prevents...

00:43:14.580 Well, yeah, there is tension.

00:43:15.040 Does it?

00:43:15.380 I don't know.

00:43:15.840 I'm not convinced of that.

00:43:16.880 Well, yeah.

00:43:17.280 Again, because I think, you know, happiness has declined for everybody, especially for

00:43:20.260 women over the time that we've had these roles.

00:43:21.580 Yeah, but we can look at people who, what is it, reportedly stay in marriages where they're

00:43:25.760 unhappy and like the long-term effects of that, even like psychologically, health-wise.

00:43:29.300 We can look at abusive relationships, situationships where the woman feels like she can't leave

00:43:34.700 even in an era of a fault divorce.

00:43:36.660 But that would be fault, right?

00:43:38.060 That's not no fault divorce.

00:43:39.160 That's like my husband punched me in the face.

00:43:40.960 The problem with fault divorce, right, is that you're already instituting like a burden

00:43:44.660 of proof onto like these abuse victims that would basically prolong the process of them

00:43:49.960 getting away from their abusive partner, right?

00:43:51.800 No, no, no.

00:43:52.420 You could separate and you could move out, you know, the same night.

00:43:55.080 So basically you're saying that you're okay with advocating for a system where, you know,

00:43:59.760 they're basically not married in all the ways that matter, but just not legally?

00:44:04.020 I don't know what matters.

00:44:05.220 Well, they're not living together.

00:44:06.640 They're not being intimate together.

00:44:08.420 Their children are in basically separate homes because you're saying the woman can leave,

00:44:12.300 but she can't have divorce.

00:44:12.780 No, I'm opposed to divorce, but we're speaking specifically now about no fault divorce because

00:44:17.300 we're probably not going to agree on divorce broadly, but we might at least agree that

00:44:21.200 no fault divorce is very, very bad because you're saying, well,

00:44:24.840 if one is not able to have a no fault divorce, then, you know, they might have to stick with

00:44:30.420 that spouse that they don't like that much or the spouse got kind of fat and I don't

00:44:33.220 like him anymore, whatever.

00:44:34.520 But first of all, it's definitely better for the kids in as much as the studies are reliable

00:44:39.700 on this.

00:44:40.300 Kids who grow up in a home of a mother and a father bound together in marriage do better

00:44:43.700 across every single criteria.

00:44:46.320 But furthermore, you're neglecting the negative aspects of divorce.

00:44:53.200 I mean, when people do get divorced and then if they have kids, you know, and God forbid

00:44:57.300 they get divorced, then if you introduce a stepfather into that relationship, the odds

00:45:02.040 that those kids are abused or sexually assaulted go through the roof.

00:45:04.840 The odds that a, and actually at a more basic level, because we could rattle off the statistics

00:45:10.320 all day.

00:45:11.000 At the basic level, we recognize that the marriage is the fundamental political unit.

00:45:15.300 The liberals say the individual is the fundamental political unit, but I think that's bunk.

00:45:18.620 I think it's the family because political means multiple people, you know, just to go

00:45:22.860 on the data really quick.

00:45:23.680 I mean, they're staying in a household with conflict is worse than, but they'll have the

00:45:29.340 conflict and divorce.

00:45:30.300 I mean, this is no, no, no, no, no.

00:45:32.980 It's better for like, yes, you're right.

00:45:36.000 But also when you, when you factor in education and socioeconomic status, a lot of that dissipates.

00:45:40.140 So what's happening usually is that poor people are more likely.

00:45:42.580 So it's, that's, it's all jumbled up.

00:45:44.140 But also people are less likely to get married in the first place and more likely to have

00:45:46.660 kids that away.

00:45:47.440 But the, being a child in a home with conflict between the parents is worse than having.

00:45:52.780 Right.

00:45:52.980 But then why isn't the answer resolve the conflict?

00:45:54.920 Because people can't, we're human beings.

00:45:56.300 You're the one who's talking about human nature.

00:45:57.800 Yeah.

00:45:57.940 But I think we're clearly not successful at staying with one person forever.

00:46:01.140 We have been at a much higher rates in the recent past.

00:46:04.200 So, you know, unless we're suggesting that no one can progress, that no one can improve

00:46:08.660 their behavior, then I think we can get better at that.

00:46:12.000 And I think part of the reason why divorce rates spiked is because the law encouraged divorce

00:46:16.300 rates to spike.

00:46:17.180 And because, to give the red pill guys their due, because family courts have been horribly

00:46:20.680 unjust to men.

00:46:21.940 And because we have a liberal idol in our society of radical individualism that says, who cares

00:46:28.660 what happens to my spouse or my kids?

00:46:30.080 Wait, when in recent history were we really good as a human species on lifelong healthy bonds?

00:46:35.600 Like we, serial monogamy seems to be what we're good.

00:46:37.980 I don't, but this thing, you don't know just because of someone staying together.

00:46:40.740 Like there's a lot of people who had parents to stay together that are all sorts of messed

00:46:44.240 up because the parents fought, there was alcoholism in the house.

00:46:48.300 There's all types of things.

00:46:49.260 Yeah, there are all bad things that can happen.

00:46:49.940 Just people staying together isn't a good metric for childhood well-being.

00:46:54.740 Well, it's a good predictor of outcomes, but I totally grant to you that, yeah, there

00:46:58.440 are bad marriages.

00:46:59.400 I just think if the law is then going to intervene, the way the law has intervened is by dissolving

00:47:04.520 the marriages and creating all sorts of incentives to get divorced and to not get married

00:47:07.480 in the first place.

00:47:08.100 But if the law is going to intervene because of all these problems, why wouldn't the law

00:47:11.620 intervene to make marriage more sustainable, to encourage marriage?

00:47:17.020 Well, the law really isn't intervening per se.

00:47:18.740 People are choosing whether they want to apply this law to their life or not.

00:47:21.800 So people are choosing that they want to get divorced or choosing if they want to work

00:47:25.240 things out.

00:47:25.940 The difference is that now you have a choice on whether you think the person you're with

00:47:29.400 is actually somebody you can continue having a sustainable relationship with.

00:47:32.660 And if the answer is no, then divorce.

00:47:34.100 To quote Simone de Beauvoir, that famous feminist, if you give people a brand new choice, if

00:47:41.200 you give people a preferable choice, given their social circumstances, they might just

00:47:45.680 take it.

00:47:46.420 And women fare off, this idea that women are, like, to fight back on the red pill, that

00:47:50.520 women aren't just incentivized to divorce.

00:47:52.060 Women fare off far worse financially after divorce.

00:47:54.340 They're way more likely to seek government assistance, be in poverty.

00:47:58.100 They're less likely to repartner.

00:47:59.220 So this idea that women are just running to the divorce court to get money is just not

00:48:03.000 true.

00:48:03.540 Well, no.

00:48:03.960 They are divorcing at much higher rates.

00:48:06.040 That's undeniable.

00:48:06.860 And I'm totally with you.

00:48:07.700 Divorce is horrible for women.

00:48:09.200 So sometimes feminists make the argument that I think perhaps we were getting to a little

00:48:13.960 earlier, the argument that you just contradicted, which is, oh, divorce is so good for women.

00:48:18.580 It's a wonderful choice.

00:48:19.520 They really need to have this choice.

00:48:20.520 It makes their lives better.

00:48:21.500 No, it doesn't.

00:48:22.280 Basically, all the time, it makes their lives much worse to say nothing of the ways that it harms

00:48:25.900 their children.

00:48:26.380 Well, no, no, what it's basically saying is that if a person is willing to take all these

00:48:32.000 worst outcomes, like economically, socially, whatever, imagine how bad that relationship

00:48:38.480 must have been.

00:48:39.140 Or imagine how diluted.

00:48:40.080 That a woman decided, like, hey, you know what?

00:48:41.780 Instead of, like, trying to continue this, it is so toxic and so unhealthy that this is

00:48:46.520 a better alternative.

00:48:47.100 Or they have been diluted by a lot of propaganda over the years, which is that divorce is good.

00:48:52.300 You seem very sane.

00:48:52.980 I'm sure you and your wife have really great ways of communicating.

00:48:56.160 And resolving your conflicts.

00:48:57.380 Do you know how crazy people are?

00:48:58.760 They can be.

00:48:59.360 They can be.

00:48:59.800 Yeah, like to say that that's going to work for everybody and everybody should just stay

00:49:03.360 in this when people are not emotionally even mature enough.

00:49:05.480 Look, I certainly style myself Prince Charming, so I'm glad to hear that we all agree.

00:49:09.900 But you're right.

00:49:11.660 Maybe people engage in more vicious and harmful behaviors.

00:49:16.220 So I guess my question is, if we agree that certain cultural practices can make people

00:49:24.660 behave better, and certain cultural practices can make people behave worse, shouldn't we

00:49:29.600 be doing everything we can to make people behave better?

00:49:33.840 And that's what we did in the classical political arrangement of society, right?

00:49:37.620 You know, the basic point of politics is do good and avoid evil.

00:49:41.480 Then, under liberalism, you had a new point of society.

00:49:45.160 The new point of society was to just expand individual autonomy maximally on the, I think,

00:49:51.960 false supposition that that would make people happier.

00:49:54.200 And we've had a couple hundred years now, and we've seen how it's played out, and it

00:49:57.300 hasn't played out very well at all.

00:49:58.600 So why don't we go back to the one that worked for all of human history?

00:50:01.020 So one, do you think that's possible or going to happen?

00:50:03.220 And two, would you then be in favor, because education, female education, seems to be a

00:50:07.200 big predictor of, one, we're the only ones whose marriage rates are not falling, they're

00:50:11.100 going up, and we're less likely to get divorced.

00:50:13.780 So do you then, would you advise women, instead of getting married really young and living this

00:50:18.200 traditional lifestyle, to maybe go get educated first?

00:50:19.940 No, the best predictor of women staying married and flourishing and having lots of kids

00:50:23.800 and being happy and not even trying to get divorced, it's not education, though education

00:50:28.480 is some predictor of that.

00:50:29.780 It's a big one.

00:50:30.320 It's religion.

00:50:31.000 Yeah, you're true.

00:50:31.540 But you can't make people, we're just becoming less religious as a society.

00:50:34.140 This thing you guys have, let's turn the clock back, let's turn the clock back.

00:50:36.620 I don't want to turn any clocks back, I just want to turn our heads back to reason.

00:50:39.180 You can't make people believe in something.

00:50:41.340 And reason is founded in logic, who is God.

00:50:41.940 Yeah, exactly.

00:50:42.540 But the logic and the reason and the age of information, a lot of people now have access

00:50:46.060 it, and they're going, actually, this kind of seems like bullshit.

00:50:48.180 And they can't, you can't make it.

00:50:49.280 No, I don't think that's why people have become irreligious.

00:50:51.380 I don't think it's because they've all gotten much better educated and read a lot of books

00:50:54.380 and gotten smarter.

00:50:54.900 They read Christopher Hitchens?

00:50:56.300 I agree with you.

00:50:56.780 I think they heard a Christopher Hitchens video once, which is suitable for a 12-year-old.

00:51:01.160 But it's undeniable that more and more people are identifying as non-religious, that this

00:51:03.620 is just a trend that it's going in.

00:51:05.060 And I don't know how much, as great as the Daily Wire is, how much you guys are going

00:51:08.060 to be able to reverse that.

00:51:09.080 So maybe we should look at how we can move forward with the society we have instead of

00:51:12.120 trying to turn the clock back in a way that we can't.

00:51:14.000 But it's not a clock.

00:51:14.900 It's not a clock.

00:51:15.660 We're not going, I'm not making a time machine.

00:51:17.440 I'm just saying that there's truth and there's falsehood.

00:51:19.660 And we are embracing a lot of falsehood in society, and that's leading to a lot of ugliness

00:51:25.300 and a lot of depravity.

00:51:27.600 And if we want less of all that stuff and we want more good, true, beautiful things,

00:51:31.040 maybe we should use our reason to recognize really basic things like God exists.

00:51:36.220 I'm not telling you you've got to come to traditional Latin mass tomorrow.

00:51:39.240 You could wait until Sunday.

00:51:40.260 But, you know, at the very least, we should recognize, hey, guys, some things are better

00:51:46.140 than others, right?

00:51:47.020 The minute you grant that some things are better than others, ultimately you have to grant

00:51:51.080 that there is a maximal good, a summum bonum, who is God, right?

00:51:54.300 We should recognize, hey, guys, effects follow causes.

00:51:59.240 And if you go back on the list of causes far enough, there's going to be an uncaused cause,

00:52:03.260 who is God?

00:52:04.260 There's really great arguments against this.

00:52:06.360 Jasmine, before I have you go, I would like to hear a little bit more from Farah if you'd

00:52:09.200 like to weigh in.

00:52:09.820 I was just going to ask, maybe I missed it.

00:52:11.240 So what do you think the ideal form of marriage is?

00:52:13.340 Like the woman goes to college and then she meets a guy in college and then she taps out

00:52:17.160 of her career?

00:52:17.500 I don't know that going to college is really great for anybody these days.

00:52:20.400 I'm pro-education, obviously.

00:52:22.380 I mean, I'm not even one of these conservatives who says, you know, you should all just study

00:52:25.780 engineering or whatever.

00:52:27.100 You know, I think that's bunk.

00:52:27.980 I think you should read old books and acculturate yourself.

00:52:31.220 But I don't think most colleges accomplish this these days, including the really fancy colleges,

00:52:36.120 Harvard, Yale, Princeton.

00:52:37.000 I don't know that maybe you can get an education there.

00:52:39.140 I'm not totally convinced you can.

00:52:40.800 And so, yeah, women should be educated.

00:52:43.140 But, you know, frankly, these days you send your kids to a homeschool co-op, they'll start

00:52:47.540 learning Latin in the third grade.

00:52:49.480 You send your kids on the track to go to Yale or Harvard and they're probably not going

00:52:52.840 to know anything by the time they graduate.

00:52:54.320 So, yeah, I would love my wife to be educated.

00:52:58.180 My wife is extremely educated.

00:52:59.800 And I would love my wife to be a wife and a mother.

00:53:02.380 And I guess the image that I think of for marriage is not as, you know, the modern way of talking

00:53:07.260 about it where you say, this is my partner.

00:53:09.680 It sounds like a gay accounting firm.

00:53:11.780 You know, this is, oh, this is my total indistinguishable partner.

00:53:15.220 No, I want a wife, man, you know.

00:53:16.840 And I want a mother for my children.

00:53:18.660 I want to be a father.

00:53:19.900 And that involves different roles and that involves complementarity.

00:53:24.160 Well, that's what I'm asking.

00:53:25.160 So are you saying that, like, maybe they'll get educated outside of college reading books

00:53:28.260 or whatever?

00:53:28.800 And then after that, they should focus, like, at age 23, 24, getting married and then not

00:53:33.460 pursuing a career and focus on family life?

00:53:36.340 Yeah, I'm not going to prescribe exactly at what age people ought to get married.

00:53:40.380 They certainly ought to get married younger.

00:53:41.840 I wish I'd gotten married younger.

00:53:43.760 But, yeah, I don't...

00:53:44.760 But you don't prescribe that they focus on a career with precedence to it.

00:53:48.040 Generally speaking, I think women will be less happy if they are going to the widget

00:53:52.660 factory to work for Mr. McGillicuddy so that they can make money that I will then receive

00:53:57.880 from my wife to pay some other woman to raise our children.

00:54:00.880 I think that's an extremely inefficient and disordered way to have a marriage.

00:54:04.960 And I don't think it makes anybody particularly happy.

00:54:07.540 I guess it confuses me coming from a trad con because you guys believe in the design of

00:54:10.520 a lot of things.

00:54:10.920 You believe in, like, the design of sex and what's, like, the most optimal use of sex.

00:54:14.140 Why did God give us sex?

00:54:14.940 Like, the purpose of sex.

00:54:15.380 Yes, and you would say, like, the end of sex would be to pair, bond, and reproduce.

00:54:19.000 So if women were not meant to pursue careers, why would God, according to your Christian

00:54:24.060 purview, you're Christian, right?

00:54:25.140 Yeah.

00:54:25.620 Like, equip us with so many rational faculties.

00:54:28.200 Like, why are women so good at, like, aerospace engineering, nanotech, pediatrics, psychiatry?

00:54:31.700 I don't know if I'd say they're so good at aerospace engineering.

00:54:33.440 Why are women scoring higher than you guys in every subject?

00:54:36.940 Yeah, they're not totally represented in these fields.

00:54:39.700 My question is, if trad cons use God as, like, their purview for, you know what I mean,

00:54:44.520 use our faculties as the metric for what we should be pursuing, why is it that women

00:54:48.300 are now outgraduating men, like, basically two to one, but then you guys are prescribing...

00:54:51.620 Because the colleges are total nonsense now, and they have a bunch of fake majors, and

00:54:54.700 it's a scam.

00:54:55.200 Is law a fake major?

00:54:56.160 Because this is, now we have more female first-year associations.

00:54:58.500 Right, and law school is largely a scam too, and you've got a glut of lawyers.

00:55:01.480 Well, my question is, why would God equip us with these things, these faculties, if God

00:55:05.260 did not want us as women to pursue these faculties, and instead abandon it at first step for marriage

00:55:09.440 and kids?

00:55:10.000 The premise of your question is that raising children and running a family in the domestic

00:55:15.380 economy is not a rational activity.

00:55:17.300 It's not that it's a rational activity, but why equip us to be so good at STEM and college

00:55:21.220 and all these pursuits?

00:55:22.260 What could be more important than raising a family?

00:55:24.460 I'm saying, why give women the ability to both have a child and still be able to read

00:55:29.880 intellectual texts or...

00:55:31.720 To educate the child.

00:55:32.440 To look at aerospace engineering.

00:55:33.680 Well, that's the thing.

00:55:34.740 You can educate the child.

00:55:35.020 To raise your kid to be an aerospace engineer, I guess, if you're really interested in that.

00:55:38.060 But you can't be an aerospace engineer yourself.

00:55:39.160 Women can if they like.

00:55:40.320 They generally don't do that.

00:55:41.640 No, I'm asking, so is that your position, that God equipped women to be as good at STEM to

00:55:45.700 outgraduate men all to just pursue homeschooling for their children?

00:55:48.460 You know, if you look at, like, Fields Medal recipients, Larry Summers got

00:55:51.120 fired from Harvard for pointing this out, but this is the top prize in mathematics.

00:55:56.840 Until about 10 years ago, no woman had ever won the prize, and now I think one woman has

00:56:01.420 won it.

00:56:01.780 And I'm not knocking...

00:56:02.740 There are plenty of women who are much more intelligent than me.

00:56:05.140 The reason Larry Summers, who's a...

00:56:07.040 As far as social scientists go, is a very respected one, and he's a big lib, but he pointed

00:56:11.260 out that the reason why men tend to dominate in the highest intellectual fields is because...

00:56:19.260 Not because men are simply smarter than women, but because the bell curve of intelligence

00:56:22.800 for men is wider than that of women.

00:56:24.460 But for a society, isn't it, like, the societies that allow women to work, even us, if we hadn't

00:56:29.740 had women, we brought in, like, trillions of dollars to the economy to take out half of

00:56:32.740 the mines in the world because the bell curve...

00:56:34.840 Yeah, I think life is about more than money.

00:56:36.660 I agree.

00:56:37.340 But if you want a flourishing, wealthy society, you can't do that by eliminating women from

00:56:41.400 the workforce.

00:56:41.940 I agree that we're wealthier today than we were 50 years ago.

00:56:44.500 I'm not sure that we're flourishing more than we are.

00:56:46.080 I mean, we're literally a dying society, right?

00:56:48.220 We haven't had above-replacement births since 1971.

00:56:51.380 Would you be okay with immigration as a way to...

00:56:53.380 That's why we have mass migration, but mass migration causes all sorts of social problems,

00:56:57.940 which is why it's deeply unpopular.

00:56:59.040 Before we pivot, I do want to pin down your position on this.

00:57:01.460 So, yes, the bell curve is wider for men, but on average, the average women are smarter

00:57:05.440 than the average men.

00:57:06.200 Obviously, at the ends of the curves, there's more unintelligent men and more high-intelligent...

00:57:11.520 The first thing you said that wouldn't imply the second, right?

00:57:14.400 It's not implied.

00:57:15.120 That's just the fact, is the bell curve is wider for men.

00:57:18.220 Like, there's more unintelligent men and more intelligent men.

00:57:20.840 Are you talking about the greater male variability hypothesis?

00:57:25.240 Is that...

00:57:25.620 I'm saying there's, on average, women are more intelligent than men, but if you look

00:57:29.180 at the most intelligent people, they're more likely to be men.

00:57:31.080 If you look at the least intelligent people, they're less likely to be men.

00:57:33.420 So I'm asking you, from your Christian purview, because if you're a nihilist, you're

00:57:36.060 an atheist, you could just be like, oh, that's randomized, who cares?

00:57:37.980 It doesn't necessarily mean it's best for society.

00:57:39.320 If you're a nihilist, you can't say anything at all, you know, because nothing means anything.

00:57:42.240 Well, that was my point.

00:57:43.300 If you're a nihilist, you could just say those curves should not be indication of how we

00:57:45.940 should live society.

00:57:46.720 But as a Christian, if you think sex is most optimized for certain purposes, you would

00:57:49.940 probably think intelligence is best optimized for certain purposes.

00:57:52.400 So why would God equip the average woman to be smarter than men?

00:57:54.920 Do you think it's just for homeschooling their children?

00:57:56.720 Again, the claim that you made at first, which is that men and women have bell curves, the

00:58:03.700 men's bell curve being wider than the woman's, would not imply that the average woman is

00:58:08.420 smarter than the average man.

00:58:09.480 No, no, no, the curve itself implies or actually indicates that on average, no, no, if you

00:58:16.800 actually look at the curves at the top, it's women, the women's curve is taller than the

00:58:21.280 men's curve.

00:58:22.600 The, the, the, but the, the IQ of the curve would be on, on the X axis, right?

00:58:27.640 That's where you get the extremes.

00:58:29.240 So I think you're, are you disputing that on average women are more intelligent than men?

00:58:33.940 As would Larry Summers, as would the people who have studied this.

00:58:36.340 But again, I think it's secondary to the point that your, your point is the more interesting

00:58:40.400 point of your, why would God equip us to be so good at school and in STEM?

00:58:43.900 If women on average were doing really, really poorly in STEM and all these, like if men

00:58:47.760 were the one outgrad, outgraduating us two to one, then I can understand from a Christian

00:58:50.700 purview saying like, see, God doesn't want you to be good at school because God wants

00:58:53.480 you to focus on these more domestic pursuits.

00:58:55.340 But how can you look at all this evidence and think that we're, you know what I mean?

00:58:58.380 We're so specifically designed by God and then deny that.

00:59:01.020 I think, I think you've bought the, the big lie of feminism that goes back to Mary

00:59:05.120 Wollstonecraft, which is that men are endowed with greater virtue than women.

00:59:08.700 And I think it's just bunk.

00:59:09.900 You're, no, you're saying what you're saying is that, uh, the, the most important things

00:59:16.300 to do, the most impressive things to do, the, just the greatest stuff to do is to do what

00:59:21.160 most men do, which is go out and work some job.

00:59:23.340 No, I didn't even, I didn't even like moralize.

00:59:25.240 I didn't even say that STEM and aerospace and all these industries that women are good at are

00:59:29.660 even morally good.

00:59:30.620 I was just saying they happen to be good at these things.

00:59:32.220 But from a Christian purview, you're the one who would ascribe morality to that.

00:59:35.020 You're saying it's, it's better to do that, I think, because you're saying.

00:59:37.980 From a Christian purview, because you think from a Christian purview, what you're good

00:59:41.020 at is what you should do.

00:59:42.060 So if women are better at child rearing, they should do that.

00:59:44.100 If sex is best used in this specific, uh, use, then people should do that.

00:59:48.540 In, in that, uh, narrow reading that I think it's pretty clear, most women are better at

00:59:53.200 raising children than building rocket ships.

00:59:55.140 So I think probably most women would prefer that.

00:59:57.140 But even more broadly, I think you're exalting male professions in a foolish way.

01:00:03.380 I think that you're, you're.

01:00:04.880 I'm not even hyping them up.

01:00:05.820 I'm just asking you.

01:00:06.640 I think you are hyping them up.

01:00:07.220 From your theist purview, why would God make women so good at STEM and college and all these

01:00:11.520 pursuits if God just wanted us to tap out as soon as we met a man and just focus on

01:00:15.280 child rearing?

01:00:15.720 Look, women do fine on certain tests, but, uh.

01:00:18.480 We're doing great.

01:00:19.120 You're doing great.

01:00:19.840 On a lot of tests.

01:00:20.420 Sure.

01:00:21.100 Better than you.

01:00:22.280 Well, perhaps.

01:00:23.240 I don't know.

01:00:23.560 No, I mean the future.

01:00:24.220 I defer to your, uh, knowledge of your.

01:00:26.520 The future of academia is unequivocally female.

01:00:28.440 Do you deny that?

01:00:29.660 I agree that the future of academia is bleak.

01:00:32.900 So if you think that it implies that women will dominate academia, then, you know, you

01:00:37.880 said it, not me.

01:00:38.840 But, uh, I don't, I don't think that the future of anything is female.

01:00:42.180 I think the future of the human race will be the complementarity of the sexes and marriages

01:00:46.560 and children, or there will be no future of the human race.

01:00:49.220 Oh, this is something I also wanted to point out to earlier.

01:00:51.300 You're saying that, like, oh, people are having less children.

01:00:53.940 You know, that's a bad thing.

01:00:54.980 But I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing.

01:00:56.780 And the reason why, at least from what we see when we compare better developed countries

01:01:01.080 to less developed countries, is that, yeah, people are choosing to have fewer children,

01:01:04.700 but they're choosing to invest more in those fewer children.

01:01:07.100 So back in agricultural times, yeah, people had to have a lot of children because they

01:01:11.020 had to have those children work.

01:01:12.480 Work in the farm, basically take over chores, take over a bunch of stuff.

01:01:15.880 So they would have seven or eight children.

01:01:17.380 A lot of times malnourished.

01:01:18.320 A lot of them died versus now where it's like, okay, yeah, they might have one or two

01:01:22.020 children, but those children are well fed.

01:01:24.620 They're getting well educated.

01:01:25.880 They're getting all the best psychiatric drugs in the country.

01:01:28.100 Well, do you think that, okay, I guess here's the other problem.

01:01:31.180 Earlier on, we were talking about like, hey, you know what?

01:01:33.600 Things are getting better measured now than before.

01:01:35.860 That's why the whole thing about like, oh, people are less happy now is not necessarily

01:01:39.000 true.

01:01:39.720 Do you think that, let's say, middle of nowhere country in Africa or something where they're

01:01:44.980 malnourished have a family of seven, do you think those people are happier because they

01:01:48.980 can't report it?

01:01:49.900 Or they're living technically more of a traditional lifestyle than like somebody in a Nordic country

01:01:53.860 or an European country?

01:01:54.880 Yeah, I think the word traditional is doing a lot of work there.

01:01:57.320 I agree that, you know, sub-Saharan Africa and Oklahoma are different, but I don't think

01:02:04.340 it's a totally fair comparison.

01:02:06.140 And I agree it's better to be nourished than to be malnourished.

01:02:08.620 I agree with that as well.

01:02:10.000 But I don't think that one necessarily needs two lawyer incomes and a Tesla and a big screen

01:02:16.240 TV and five iPhones to be able to thrive and flourish.

01:02:20.620 I think we've become far too materialistic.

01:02:23.320 And we now know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

01:02:26.260 So we've got more money than ever, but we're all miserable.

01:02:28.480 When you cited the data on the two parent houses, sorry, but socioeconomic status and

01:02:34.140 education, especially maternal education, are big predictors of childhood outcomes.

01:02:37.700 So how come the data on two parent households, we should follow that, but not the one on...

01:02:42.100 Yeah, no, I'm fine with women being smart.

01:02:43.920 I like when women are smart and well-educated, you know, because they're raising my children,

01:02:47.700 you know?

01:02:47.900 Well, one is raising my children.

01:02:49.140 I'm not...

01:02:49.560 If I were living in Africa, maybe I'd have five...

01:02:50.900 That's where you deviate from the red pill.

01:02:52.340 Right, true.

01:02:53.500 But, you know, it is said that the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the

01:02:57.260 world.

01:02:57.620 So when a man chooses a woman to be his wife and to raise his family, he is entrusting her

01:03:04.020 with his life, you know?

01:03:05.880 Right, and so I don't think he wants her to be a dummy or to be vicious or to be anything

01:03:11.160 like that.

01:03:11.660 He would have no incentive to do so.

01:03:12.680 But it's better to have fewer kids that you can, it seems like, provide more for and make

01:03:16.940 sure than to have 10 kids and none of those kids end up being, are flourishing.

01:03:20.760 I think it's good to be open to life.

01:03:22.660 You know, I think that one of the big problems in our society is that we're, we've embraced

01:03:27.180 sterility.

01:03:27.920 So we're sterile, intellectually, artistically, philosophically, and literally, we don't have

01:03:33.920 any kids and we exalt as some kind of supposed political right, sterile forms of sex.

01:03:38.480 So I wouldn't recommend that at all.

01:03:39.960 And I think when you get married, you're, to my earlier point, you're giving yourself

01:03:43.880 wholly over to another person.

01:03:45.920 And so you shouldn't withhold anything.

01:03:47.780 You know, you should be totally open to life for the, for the unity of the spouses.

01:03:52.100 And for the, in modern society, I feel like you have a very idealistic view.

01:03:56.060 Oh no, I think I can tell you from experience.

01:03:57.880 Well, you're very successful.

01:03:58.780 It's totally practical.

01:03:59.300 You're very successful.

01:04:00.300 You're not struggling to feed your kids.

01:04:02.120 I'm not.

01:04:02.780 I haven't been totally canceled yet.

01:04:04.300 That's true.

01:04:04.620 But I know people who, who make less money than I do.

01:04:07.140 I have some points.

01:04:07.920 And they've got a million kids that are very happy.

01:04:09.220 Here, Pixie, you go ahead and I will shift gears a little bit after you go.

01:04:12.320 Okay.

01:04:12.600 I just have some points of clarification quickly.

01:04:14.360 So if you believe that people should be like open to life, do you believe basically, should

01:04:18.940 we have like universal child daycare?

01:04:21.360 Do you believe that we should have some?

01:04:22.280 No, I think we should have mothers and fathers.

01:04:24.560 Okay.

01:04:25.760 Do you not, if you're talking about how women should be more traditional or stay at home

01:04:30.580 more, but you agree that our current economic circumstances don't necessarily allow for that

01:04:34.940 household.

01:04:35.580 It seems to me like one potential solution to this would be like, hey, you know what?

01:04:40.040 Better paternal and maternity leave.

01:04:42.140 So then that way, like the household doesn't suffer the income, but the woman can go.

01:04:45.920 I support 18 years of maternity leave.

01:04:47.940 I think, forget about 18 months.

01:04:49.300 I think it should be 18 years.

01:04:50.280 Do you believe women should be paid for staying in the household?

01:04:53.260 Well, you know, in principle, I'm not opposed to it.

01:04:54.740 The problem is it would create so many bad incentives and it would be so inefficiently

01:04:57.840 managed by the central government.

01:04:59.020 Well, 18 years.

01:05:00.240 18 years would be tough.

01:05:01.240 But, you know, in principle, to your point, in principle, look, there's one country in the

01:05:05.740 West that has managed to turn around the birth rate problem and they haven't solved it

01:05:08.520 yet, but they've ticked it up a little bit in the opposite direction.

01:05:11.540 And that's Hungary.

01:05:12.240 And the way they did it was they said that once you have four kids, you don't have to pay income

01:05:15.200 tax anymore.

01:05:16.040 And that's a great way to encourage people to have kids.

01:05:18.680 So, you know, I'm not sure.

01:05:19.860 I don't disagree with that.

01:05:20.220 Yeah.

01:05:20.600 You know, like, would I suggest that we just start sending checks for each baby that you

01:05:24.600 pop out?

01:05:25.340 That's probably an overly simplistic way to do it.

01:05:27.800 But should the government, which is really an expression of the people in self-government,

01:05:32.420 should we encourage and support having families rather than passing laws that discourage

01:05:37.840 families?

01:05:38.660 100%.

01:05:39.100 Yeah.

01:05:39.360 I'm for pro-family policy.

01:05:41.020 I think we all are.

01:05:41.720 Yeah.

01:05:41.740 Yeah.

01:05:41.900 Did you have more?

01:05:43.000 No.

01:05:43.240 I was just trying to see if you agreed with that or not, because I've met a couple of

01:05:46.420 conservatives who are like, oh, no, we shouldn't pass laws like that.

01:05:49.520 Yeah.

01:05:49.760 Well, the libertarians get feisty of any time you say that we should do anything in politics.

01:05:54.020 But, no, I'm fine as long as it's prudent.

01:05:57.680 The point that you raised at first, though, would be terribly wrong, which would be to say, all

01:06:03.060 right, now we've got guaranteed daycare.

01:06:04.800 That would only make the problem worse, right?

01:06:06.520 If we want families to be stronger and we want families to be incentivized to have more

01:06:10.100 children and to raise their own children.

01:06:12.120 Oh, sorry.

01:06:12.520 I do have one more thing.

01:06:13.580 I guess what I don't understand is that earlier you were talking about the community.

01:06:16.700 The community is important.

01:06:17.880 Like, liberals are, like, too individualized.

01:06:19.780 Yeah.

01:06:19.880 But to me, it seems like programs like universal daycare or such of the matter do foster a

01:06:25.680 sense of community.

01:06:26.500 I don't think a child was meant to be raised by just one single person, like, not even just

01:06:31.100 a mom.

01:06:31.480 Nor do I.

01:06:32.060 I think there's at least two people involved.

01:06:33.940 Yeah, I think more.

01:06:34.980 Community.

01:06:35.260 We live a whole society that, you know, should take care of the children.

01:06:38.740 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:38.960 So your insight is, or your inclination is right, which is, you know, it takes a village.

01:06:43.420 Much as I dislike Hillary Clinton, that phrase itself is not objectionable.

01:06:47.140 But it takes a village.

01:06:48.640 It doesn't, I don't think it takes a contrived product of some technocracy that creates the,

01:06:55.740 you know, sterile and clinical preschool program, daycare program.

01:07:00.280 That's not a real organic community.

01:07:02.560 That's not a community where people are accountable to one another, where people have natural bonds

01:07:06.620 that begin with the family and extend to the extended family and then to the neighborhood

01:07:10.820 and to Mrs. McGillicuddy down the street.

01:07:12.820 How would you make, because religion has done a really good job of this, creating these

01:07:15.580 fostering communities.

01:07:16.240 But the bottom line is people just don't believe in it.

01:07:18.040 There's a question of if it's beneficial and if it's true.

01:07:20.380 How are you, how, what's your plan to convince more people that it's true and that they should

01:07:24.320 follow it?

01:07:24.600 Because everything is pointing the opposite way and we're going the opposite way.

01:07:27.560 Beneficial means is good and true means is true.

01:07:29.700 And I, some people think these are divorced.

01:07:31.560 I don't think they're divorced.

01:07:32.720 Well, I think, I hold to an old fashioned view that there are the three transcendentals,

01:07:37.020 which is goodness, truth, and beauty, and that they involve one another.

01:07:42.020 So something that is good is likely to be true and something that is false is likely to

01:07:47.720 be harmful.

01:07:48.320 Okay.

01:07:48.540 So if, let's say if, transgenderism was shown to be beneficial, I know you don't believe

01:07:52.580 that, would it then be true?

01:07:54.440 I'm confident that it won't be shown to be beneficial.

01:07:56.160 But if it was, would you then, is that really?

01:07:58.280 You know, you're asking me if, you know, if two plus two equaled five, would that change

01:08:03.120 my view of mathematics?

01:08:04.120 I suppose it would.

01:08:04.960 But, you know, the reason that I'm so confident, every time some pro-trans activist comes out

01:08:10.060 and says, there is a new study that shows the brain scans of Bruce Jenner mean that

01:08:14.700 he's really, you know, a lady or whatever.

01:08:16.440 And then it never turns out to be true.

01:08:17.540 Are you doing the whole perception is real?

01:08:19.060 Like if I, if it was beneficial to me to believe in unicorns, does that make unicorns real?

01:08:23.440 I don't think, I guess our disagreement would go back one step even further.

01:08:27.040 I don't think it's beneficial to believe in fantasies.

01:08:29.620 I think that.

01:08:30.220 So that's what people don't like religion.

01:08:32.320 But I think, you know, I, I agree that, you know, atheists and liberals have denigrated

01:08:37.120 religion for centuries now, but I, I don't think it's a fantasy.

01:08:40.660 I don't think that it's just a comforting thought.

01:08:42.580 Neither do transgender people.

01:08:43.720 Like my point is that.

01:08:44.260 Right, but they're wrong and I'm right, I guess.

01:08:45.460 Yeah, exactly.

01:08:46.320 That's what it goes down to.

01:08:46.880 But one of us is going to be right.

01:08:48.120 What makes you believe that, like that Catholic doctrine is true?

01:08:51.840 Well, I believe, to quote the first Vatican Council, that the existence of God, I'm not

01:08:56.420 saying all the other stuff, but the existence of God can be known with certainty by natural

01:09:01.400 human reason from the created world.

01:09:03.260 Yeah, I'm not, I'm not debating about the existence of God.

01:09:05.840 I'm saying specifically Catholic doctrine, that it goes beyond just the existence of

01:09:09.440 God.

01:09:09.540 So if we all, if we all agree that God exists and can be known through reason, and maybe

01:09:12.420 we're making a leap there, but you seem at least to grant it.

01:09:14.220 Definitely a leap.

01:09:14.600 But at least you grant it.

01:09:16.320 Then the question is, okay, well, who is God?

01:09:18.680 And here is where revelation gets involved.

01:09:21.560 But is revelation not just the word?

01:09:23.480 Why not the Viking God?

01:09:24.640 Wait, is revelation not just like the word of somebody else, essentially, claiming to like

01:09:29.020 have these truths revealed by God?

01:09:30.400 It's the word of a great many people played out throughout history.

01:09:32.460 So, you know, for instance, it was very recently Christmas, and so the revelation of our Lord

01:09:38.480 and Savior Jesus Christ is in the incarnation, and then he lives for 33 years, and then suffers

01:09:42.960 a passion, is crucified, and is resurrected on the third day.

01:09:45.920 At least that's how the story goes, right?

01:09:47.600 Well, why would I believe that story?

01:09:49.360 What reason do I have to believe?

01:09:50.680 That's a crazy story, isn't it?

01:09:52.120 People don't just rise from the dead.

01:09:54.220 Well, part of the reason I might believe it is because the gospel accounts were all written

01:09:58.520 within living memory.

01:09:59.580 A part of the reason I might believe this is because 11 men went to their deaths to defend

01:10:04.760 what, a fable?

01:10:05.760 To defend, 11 men just all suffered the same defect of perception.

01:10:09.740 One of the reasons I would believe it is it's attested to in non-Christian history.

01:10:14.600 One of the reasons I might believe this is that there were 500 witnesses to the resurrection.

01:10:17.860 And then another reason I might witness this, which gets to your point of the relation between

01:10:21.720 goodness and truth, is that that religion spread to the entire world, and we haven't

01:10:28.180 even gotten into the other historical coincidences of this, and led to a civilization that was

01:10:32.440 extraordinarily powerful, flourishing.

01:10:34.780 I mean, nothing like it has ever existed on the face of the earth, but never would again

01:10:38.360 if it were to go away.

01:10:40.080 This would all seem to point to at least some little kernel of truth in that.

01:10:44.100 I just, okay, I guess...

01:10:46.180 Final thing, and then I will move on.

01:10:47.840 Go ahead.

01:10:48.420 Final thoughts on that.

01:10:49.520 To me, it doesn't necessarily follow that just because a lot of people believe something,

01:10:54.400 it means that there's a kernel of truth to it, right?

01:10:56.660 I feel like...

01:10:57.500 No, yeah, not necessarily.

01:10:58.280 Yeah.

01:10:58.660 It seems to me that people, the same arguments that you used could be used when it comes to

01:11:02.820 trying to justify Islam, for example, that a lot of people have gone and fight and die for it.

01:11:07.340 Islam didn't spread peacefully as Christianity did.

01:11:09.620 It's the fastest growing religion, isn't it?

01:11:11.900 Yeah, it's still the fastest growing religion right now, but the point that I'm trying to

01:11:15.240 get across is that ultimately it seems like your belief in the Catholic faith and doctrine

01:11:19.160 goes back to like, hey, a lot of other people seem to believe this, so then that leads to...

01:11:23.120 Perhaps I misspoke.

01:11:24.500 Quick response.

01:11:25.460 Yes.

01:11:25.800 A quick version of it.

01:11:27.620 Perhaps I misspoke.

01:11:29.600 My faith in the Catholic religion comes down to the existence of God being knowable through

01:11:35.160 reason and the identification of God with the logos.

01:11:37.460 This would be something different than, say, in Islam, where Allah is totally transcendent

01:11:42.120 and as Ibn Hazm, the medieval Islamic writer, said, if God so willed it, he could make people

01:11:47.100 worship idols.

01:11:48.220 So mine identifies God with reason, so it's not just mere hearsay.

01:11:51.840 Then there is a little bit of hearsay because all these people saw it and believed it and

01:11:54.500 spread it throughout all of the world.

01:11:56.020 And the religion was extraordinarily successful.

01:11:58.520 And in that spread, one final difference, I suppose, is that with maybe two exceptions,

01:12:05.560 Christianity spread peacefully everywhere that it spread.

01:12:08.760 The two exceptions would be Charlemagne and I guess the Spanish Inquisition.

01:12:12.860 With Islam, Islam spread violently everywhere that it spread.

01:12:16.800 And so I'm not even knocking the Muslims.

01:12:19.340 I'm just pointing out one was reliant largely on reason.

01:12:23.000 And so it would seem to me that the faith is reasonable.

01:12:25.760 Okay.

01:12:26.560 Shifting gears here a little bit, kind of back to feminism.

01:12:29.680 Are women oppressed?

01:12:31.180 Are men oppressed?

01:12:32.780 Who is more oppressed?

01:12:35.100 And I think, let's start with Michael on this and then we'll switch over to you guys.

01:12:37.980 Go ahead.

01:12:38.360 Yes.

01:12:38.860 Women are oppressed.

01:12:40.160 Men are quite oppressed.

01:12:42.420 But what oppresses us is not, you know, like the patriarchy or whatever.

01:12:47.800 What oppresses us is sin and vice.

01:12:49.560 That's what actually does it.

01:12:51.620 True freedom is not, as the feminists and the liberals who preceded them would believe,

01:12:56.200 the ability to do whatever we wish.

01:12:58.140 You know, the ability, the right to do wrong.

01:13:00.020 I don't think there's any right to do wrong.

01:13:01.440 I think that's why the word is called a right.

01:13:03.000 I think that liberty is the right to do what we ought to do.

01:13:08.120 And so I think that the truth will set you free.

01:13:11.340 And I think that falsehood will enslave you.

01:13:14.280 And I think that the real oppression we see today is a result of following our appetites,

01:13:20.900 our lower will, disconnected from our rational will.

01:13:23.740 So, you know, I go out and eat a lot of donuts or I shoot up a bunch of heroin or something.

01:13:27.460 Or I am addicted to porn or I'm sleeping around with all these women or I'm even, forget about porn,

01:13:34.260 I'm just indulging my pride on social media and I'm just doom scrolling all day and not doing any of my work.

01:13:40.160 Those are oppressions because you can't escape them.

01:13:43.300 Even when your rational will says, ugh, I've had enough drugs, I've eaten enough donuts,

01:13:47.300 I've looked at enough porn, your appetite comes back in and says, ah, give me more.

01:13:50.820 And so you lose your freedom.

01:13:53.120 To quote St. Paul, the things that I want to do, I don't do.

01:13:55.480 And the things that I want to do, I do.

01:13:56.560 So we are oppressed by patriarchy because didn't you define patriarchy as like male sexual appetite

01:14:00.240 and things like hookup culture?

01:14:01.060 No, no, I think patriarchy truly is just, you know,

01:14:06.040 the reflection and the symbol of marriage of the relation between Christ and his church.

01:14:10.240 Oh, because previously you defined it as things like hookup culture and...

01:14:13.280 No, no, I said that we live in a patriarchy in as much as women are not dominant over men, right?

01:14:19.900 And so I agree that women are still bearing the brunt of a lot of terrible things,

01:14:23.240 but it's a perverted patriarchy were my exact words.

01:14:26.420 And so the true one would be the notion that man is the head of woman as Christ is the head of his church,

01:14:30.780 which makes a lot of liberal streak these days.

01:14:33.120 But the way that this perverse patriarchy would be practiced today

01:14:37.920 is that man is not like Christ to his church.

01:14:42.020 Man is like a little demon in the Garden of Eden tempting Eve.

01:14:44.560 So you define current oppression as basically modernity,

01:14:47.860 like things like you said social media, pride, gluttony, lust, things like that.

01:14:51.120 No, I think real oppression really can only come from sin.

01:14:54.340 I think that's, I think, and the wages of that are death.

01:14:56.600 And so, you know, the law can come in and act in a way that is contrary to justice,

01:15:02.160 and that does happen a lot, but that doesn't really matter.

01:15:05.480 You know, you can be free in a prison cell.

01:15:07.420 The problem for us, the far greater threat to our liberty,

01:15:10.820 is the lack of ability to control ourselves and to live virtuous, flourishing lives.

01:15:15.380 And, you know, you can't just blame some guy on TikTok for that.

01:15:18.960 You can't just blame a law for that.

01:15:21.020 So for, oh, did you want to respond?

01:15:22.720 Yeah, I guess I had a question.

01:15:24.100 I do want to ask, if you think religion is really good at suppressing that, like, proclivity for vice,

01:15:28.480 and you would probably label something,

01:15:30.060 Not all religions, but.

01:15:30.980 You would probably label something like pornography consumption as unequivocally a vice

01:15:34.860 and something that oppresses us, then why is it that in states that have the most evangelical Christians,

01:15:39.740 we see the highest subscriptions to things like Playboy, OnlyFans, Pornhub, hookers.

01:15:43.420 They still have Playboy?

01:15:44.540 Playboy's wholesome.

01:15:45.380 I'm just paying more of a historical progression.

01:15:47.620 It went from, like, obviously Penthouse to Playboy to Hustler to now,

01:15:51.140 then to the strip clubs, pornography, restaurants, things like that.

01:15:54.300 Why is that most rampant in red states, specifically religious red states?

01:15:58.020 Yeah, I don't know.

01:15:58.620 I mean, I can't speak specifically to evangelical Protestantism because I'm not totally, you know,

01:16:03.400 I'm not one, and I'm just not as familiar with it.

01:16:06.120 I do know that in some of the Protestant denominations,

01:16:08.460 they get a little bit more loosey-goosey on the sex stuff.

01:16:11.000 Obviously, the Lambeth statement permitted contraception

01:16:15.540 and a little bit weirder sex stuff for some Protestants.

01:16:18.300 So I remain a mackerel-snapping papist,

01:16:20.640 and I kind of believe the old-fashioned way that,

01:16:22.900 to quote the great philosopher Norm MacDonald,

01:16:25.280 sex is a filthy, shameful thing that should only be for the purpose of procreation within marriage.

01:16:28.960 And so I don't know, you know, if you say, well, in Utah or something,

01:16:35.640 they're looking at porn more, and therefore the Mormons are, you know, hypocrites.

01:16:39.940 Okay, maybe they're hypocrites.

01:16:40.900 First of all, Utah just effectively banned porn

01:16:42.960 because they forced porn companies to have an age.

01:16:47.300 And Pornhub, very tellingly, said, okay, we're not going to do business there anymore

01:16:51.000 because we rely on kids for our business.

01:16:52.920 I guess my point is it doesn't seem like religion is a compelling antidote

01:16:55.640 against the vices that you deem to be oppressive if in these states

01:16:59.280 that have the highest populations of religious people,

01:17:01.880 your type of religion, Christian.

01:17:03.480 Why is it that they're indulging in these vices more disproportionately than liberals?

01:17:07.060 Well, again, you know, I love my Protestant friends,

01:17:10.780 but some of them take a looser view of sexual morality than the Catholics do.

01:17:14.140 The Catholics still have a very rigid view.

01:17:15.760 So I think you're making a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison.

01:17:18.140 I'm completing it too much.

01:17:18.480 Yeah, but furthermore, to quote La Rochefoucauld again,

01:17:23.020 hypocrisy is the tribute vice-paste of virtue, and religion is a public thing.

01:17:27.600 So we want to pray.

01:17:29.460 We can pray individually.

01:17:30.460 We can avoid looking at porn individually.

01:17:32.040 We can do whatever individually.

01:17:33.720 But we're social creatures, and so if we live in a community

01:17:36.280 that is more likely to put us in the near occasion of sin,

01:17:39.780 we're more likely to fall into that.

01:17:41.300 You know, today, porn is everywhere, right?

01:17:43.980 You can't drive down the street.

01:17:45.480 You certainly can't open social media without that.

01:17:47.480 And if there's more temptation everywhere, you're more likely to fall into it,

01:17:50.320 even if you know it's wrong.

01:17:51.400 And so now we point to those people.

01:17:52.880 We say, well, they're hypocrites.

01:17:54.220 No, they're not hypocrites.

01:17:55.060 They're human beings who have a standard and fall short of it.

01:17:56.800 You think they're victims to, like, just the rampant porn industry?

01:17:59.360 Yeah, I think the porn industry certainly victimizes people.

01:18:01.920 Do you think porn worsened it more than prior?

01:18:04.820 Like, do you kind of blame the porn industry?

01:18:06.680 Yeah, I think porn industry is awful and should be wiped off the face of the earth.

01:18:08.660 Can we talk about what consequences you're seeing

01:18:10.600 since the proliferation of porn that makes society so much worse?

01:18:13.580 Yeah, totally.

01:18:14.080 Yeah, well, you see, I mean, you know, again, to go back to all those studies,

01:18:18.180 you see a big spike in sexual aggression.

01:18:20.980 You see a big spike in...

01:18:21.980 Wait, wait, no.

01:18:22.540 Crime is down since the porn, what, early 2000s?

01:18:25.840 Crime is way down.

01:18:26.720 Yeah.

01:18:26.820 Well, okay, just, I mean...

01:18:27.800 And rape is way down.

01:18:29.100 And abortion is way down.

01:18:30.460 Yeah.

01:18:30.740 Seems like it's...

01:18:31.200 Abortion, no.

01:18:32.200 Abortion...

01:18:32.420 From the early 2000s, yeah.

01:18:33.980 Abortion is, unfortunately, slightly up, even after the Dobbs decision.

01:18:38.260 Though, if you go into the state-by-state data, babies still have been saved,

01:18:41.220 and it's somewhat complicated.

01:18:42.240 But since porn became widely available, what's worse?

01:18:45.240 Because it's not violence.

01:18:46.020 Oh, so what you're saying is, because there's porn now,

01:18:48.440 people are getting married less, they're having fewer babies,

01:18:50.680 they're getting pregnant less, and maybe they're having fewer abortions.

01:18:52.480 I'm just saying, if porn made society just so catastrophic,

01:18:55.820 what are the outcomes you're seeing?

01:18:57.160 Because it's not violence.

01:18:58.240 Well, I think you would say porn is bad as an end in itself, right?

01:19:01.100 Yeah, it's intrinsically evil.

01:19:02.360 But also, if you're interested in some, you know, studies or something,

01:19:05.660 and again, I don't even really buy studies,

01:19:07.420 but I think it was 2010 out of the University of Arkansas,

01:19:11.220 a survey of the most popular porn, not all porn,

01:19:13.760 but the most popular porn videos showed 88% depicted sexual aggression,

01:19:18.740 verbal or physical.

01:19:20.240 There was a study that came out about 10 years ago out of Denmark

01:19:22.560 that showed that regular porn use increased misogynistic attitudes,

01:19:27.120 which I totally agree.

01:19:28.940 There was another study that came out of, I think it was Indiana,

01:19:33.060 Indiana, a few years ago, which showed that regular porn consumption

01:19:36.940 was correlated with sexual aggressiveness in both men and women,

01:19:41.420 which I don't think is a very good thing.

01:19:43.060 And then there was another study, I forget which state it came out of,

01:19:46.040 in like 2015 or 2019, which showed that porn use

01:19:50.780 and sexual interactions online for women were a reliable predictor

01:19:55.280 of in real life sexual violence committed against them.

01:19:58.400 So, again, I grant you that, you know,

01:20:00.560 You've got your studies, I've got my studies.

01:20:02.920 But in as much as you do believe the social scientific data,

01:20:06.320 there is a lot of evidence that porn has had disastrous consequences.

01:20:08.900 Pixie, you had something, I think, a little bit before this.

01:20:11.560 Go ahead.

01:20:11.880 Yeah, basically, earlier when you were saying, like,

01:20:14.480 oh, no, people are watching pornographic content more often

01:20:20.160 because they're surrounded by it, they can't help it.

01:20:22.400 So even if it comes to a virtuous person, if they're surrounded,

01:20:25.280 they're still going to fall prey to it.

01:20:26.680 But to me, that doesn't necessarily check,

01:20:28.500 and I don't want to be offensive here, but the Catholic Church,

01:20:32.140 especially priests who are supposed to be surrounded by those who are holy,

01:20:36.160 tend to have, like, some of the highest rates of, like, child abuse.

01:20:39.600 No, they don't.

01:20:40.320 I mean, there's obviously a child sex abuse crisis.

01:20:43.040 It was 20 years ago, especially in the Catholic Church.

01:20:44.960 And even recently, if we looked at, like, the past, like, 10 years,

01:20:47.680 like, not enough has been done.

01:20:50.380 Obviously, there's a lot of media attention on that,

01:20:53.240 and it's a terrible problem.

01:20:54.360 But if you compare rates of child sexual abuse within the Catholic Church

01:20:58.440 to any other religious community, among Christians, it's flat.

01:21:02.820 It's exactly the same as the Protestants.

01:21:05.260 Among certain Orthodox Jews, it's actually significantly lower.

01:21:08.220 And then my favorite statistic here, though it's very dark,

01:21:10.900 is that the rates of sexual abuse from the Catholic Church against children

01:21:15.960 is about half the rate as public school teachers against children.

01:21:19.300 So, you know, it's all bad, but it's not particularly.

01:21:22.520 From what I've seen, at least from what I've seen,

01:21:24.900 that's not necessarily true.

01:21:26.260 What I've seen is that...

01:21:27.140 It's true.

01:21:27.520 I can promise you.

01:21:28.540 Okay, we'll fact check later.

01:21:30.520 Or right now, actually, we could.

01:21:32.560 But one of the specific reasons, and I'll grant you this,

01:21:35.080 or grant this to the Catholic Church, at least,

01:21:36.880 is that the reason why the Catholic Church has higher rates of sexual abuse

01:21:40.520 compared to Protestants is not because Protestants are necessarily doing it less,

01:21:44.140 but because the Catholic Church keeps...

01:21:45.800 Investigates it more.

01:21:46.080 Yeah, investigates it more.

01:21:47.220 But even with that...

01:21:47.660 They do investigate it a lot.

01:21:48.740 I just...

01:21:49.300 Yeah, I think the rate...

01:21:50.140 It depends on which Protestant group you're comparing it to,

01:21:53.020 but...

01:21:53.940 And some Protestant groups...

01:21:55.100 I do want to go to the question for this side,

01:21:58.860 Farah, Pixie, and Jasmine.

01:22:00.260 Are women oppressed?

01:22:01.160 Are men oppressed?

01:22:02.300 Who is more oppressed?

01:22:04.120 Starting with Farah, and then we'll come this way.

01:22:06.220 Kind of like patriarchy, I think oppressed is a hefty word.

01:22:08.600 I prefer just the term marginalized,

01:22:10.960 and I think women are marginalized more than men.

01:22:13.600 Okay.

01:22:14.460 Didn't we just say that women are graduating college at a higher rate than men?

01:22:18.320 Like, there are more women in college than men.

01:22:19.860 It depends on that.

01:22:20.160 But didn't we also say that the culture of women move in lockstep to male desires in terms

01:22:23.600 of things like hookup culture and just the culture at large?

01:22:26.340 Didn't you also admit that?

01:22:27.260 I get...

01:22:27.640 Yeah, no, I'm not saying women are in a good spot.

01:22:29.760 I'm just saying, how is it that if women are represent...

01:22:32.660 or the majority of the population, and they're represented as the majority in these apparently

01:22:37.480 desirable places, such as universities, you couldn't say they're marginalized, because

01:22:41.720 they're the majority, so they're not the margin.

01:22:44.280 I think you could still be othered, even if you're a majority, if there's a louder minority,

01:22:47.860 yes.

01:22:48.040 That's why I didn't use the term oppressed.

01:22:49.200 That's why I used marginalized.

01:22:49.880 Do you think men are louder than women?

01:22:52.020 100%.

01:22:52.340 They speak more words per minute.

01:22:53.820 I mean, that's just a fact.

01:22:54.680 That's because Shapiro brings up the answer.

01:22:56.240 That's true.

01:22:56.660 Your answer, Pixie.

01:23:01.080 Men and women are both oppressed.

01:23:03.040 They're both oppressed in different ways.

01:23:05.080 I do not like playing oppression Olympics, because I think that both...

01:23:08.440 You can play.

01:23:09.320 No, I don't want to play.

01:23:10.720 They both have very, very legitimate reasons to feel oppressed, so that's where I stand.

01:23:16.420 Jasmine, what about you?

01:23:17.420 Yeah, I agree with that.

01:23:18.080 I think men and women are oppressed, but I think if you're looking at who's more oppressed

01:23:21.180 in a society and you're looking at what metric to use, I think the male-female one is

01:23:24.700 really terrible.

01:23:25.400 I think class and privilege and stuff has a way bigger effect on how oppressed you will

01:23:30.140 be rather than your gender.

01:23:32.320 If I was a guy, I think maybe my life would be maybe a little bit worse, maybe a little

01:23:35.440 better.

01:23:35.560 If I was in a different family, it could be different.

01:23:37.240 It just depends on so many factors, but class, I think, is much bigger than men versus women.

01:23:42.920 That's like the old school leftist view, where you focus on class over racial or sexual

01:23:47.840 identity.

01:23:48.540 You know what's weird, though, is when you look at rates of actually depression drug use,

01:23:53.860 you would think that it would vary by class.

01:23:56.600 I think of the average person on prescription drugs as like a upper-middle-class white lady

01:24:02.000 with maybe one or two kids in the suburbs somewhere.

01:24:04.640 But it's not.

01:24:05.400 There's actually very little difference among all classes.

01:24:07.740 We're all just depressed and on drugs.

01:24:09.320 I don't know.

01:24:12.320 I'd be curious to see that exact data point because I also know that it's harder for people

01:24:17.420 in the lower classes to be covered properly by health insurance and probably get proper

01:24:23.160 medication in general.

01:24:24.380 Well, the lowest classes are in Medicaid.

01:24:26.480 It's kind of that lower middle that has a little trouble.

01:24:28.580 The opioid crisis isn't affecting people at Yale and law school.

01:24:31.520 It's like there is a class.

01:24:32.900 The cocaine crisis is affecting people at Yale.

01:24:34.000 Yeah, but cocaine, people are still highly functioning, good attorneys and whatever on

01:24:38.940 cocaine.

01:24:39.500 You can't really do that as much on fentanyl.

01:24:41.660 But so yeah, I think class does affect, especially the kind of drugs you get addicted to and all

01:24:46.860 that.

01:24:47.000 Well, and especially to your point on class, like the fact that people in the lower socioeconomic

01:24:52.180 classes are much less likely to get married and much more likely to have kids out of wedlock.

01:24:56.640 To me, this is one of the most, bringing it all the way back, this is one of the most evil aspects

01:25:00.500 of feminism is that a lot of the supposed feminists don't really practice what they preach.

01:25:06.240 In fact, I think a lot of elite liberals don't really practice what they preach because they're

01:25:10.960 more likely to get married and they're more likely to go to some school and obviously.

01:25:14.720 They have less sex as well, less casual sex.

01:25:16.340 Less casual sex and they do it.

01:25:18.140 But the way they talk is they say, no, man, we need total liberation.

01:25:21.640 We need a revolution, man, whatever, you know.

01:25:23.420 And then unfortunately, it's the lower socioeconomic classes who buy that garbage and they ruin their

01:25:28.120 lives.

01:25:28.500 I agree with you there.

01:25:29.520 I think we need to do a better job of explaining to people like, like for me, I do sex work.

01:25:34.760 I don't like tell other, I don't advocate for everybody to do that.

01:25:38.520 Why not?

01:25:39.020 Because I think you have to have a specific type of temperament for it.

01:25:41.620 You have to be willing to understand the consequences for it.

01:25:44.520 Like me, it really, I thought about my values.

01:25:46.640 I thought about who I was and it aligned with that.

01:25:48.120 If you're like 18 and you don't know what you're doing, I don't know if it's a good option

01:25:51.820 for you to jump into, I don't even think it's a good option for you to jump into marriage

01:25:54.460 either.

01:25:54.900 You have to think about who you are and who your values are.

01:25:57.080 You don't want to be prepared to be married.

01:25:57.820 I thought you were going to say you didn't think it was a good idea for me to jump into

01:25:59.980 sex work.

01:26:01.000 Which would have been very offensive.

01:26:02.060 I think you'd be fine.

01:26:02.920 I think you'd make a lot of money.

01:26:04.500 Come on, you're going to think he's fine.

01:26:05.820 You two together?

01:26:06.740 Should he start a-

01:26:07.380 A couple's page?

01:26:08.100 A couple's page?

01:26:08.700 Yeah.

01:26:08.720 What if Michael Knowles started like a cigar review OnlyFans?

01:26:12.700 I like that.

01:26:13.320 I was thinking I'd recite Italian poetry on OnlyFans.

01:26:15.480 That would be good.

01:26:16.480 Do you speak Latin?

01:26:17.160 Shirtless?

01:26:17.500 A little bit.

01:26:18.060 A little bit.

01:26:18.760 Shirtless.

01:26:19.000 All right, come back.

01:26:19.800 Whoa, okay.

01:26:20.600 Pump the brakes a little bit there.

01:26:22.480 Okay.

01:26:22.740 Do you think you would come to regret doing the OnlyFans?

01:26:25.560 Not me, but I think some people would.

01:26:27.400 You don't think there's a chance you'll come to regret it?

01:26:29.080 No.

01:26:30.220 Why would I regret it?

01:26:31.400 If, say, you wanted to get married and have kids and you found it harder to-

01:26:35.360 I don't think so because I think that I typically like men.

01:26:38.420 Like, for instance, I always tell this story.

01:26:39.780 Like, I didn't have any social media before I started OnlyFans.

01:26:42.120 And I didn't have-

01:26:42.580 And, like, one guy I was on a date with was like,

01:26:44.120 oh, I love that because you're not showing off your body.

01:26:45.980 I just ghosted him.

01:26:46.780 Like, I just-

01:26:47.300 I don't like men like that.

01:26:48.760 I like men that have similar values to me where they don't correlate modesty with morality

01:26:54.740 and that they don't really care.

01:26:56.000 Do you think that guys who, like, look at a lot of porn and are very pro-porn,

01:27:02.220 do you think they tend to make better or worse husbands?

01:27:05.840 Well, we know that the ones that actually have issues with porn,

01:27:08.400 the biggest predictor of that is moral incongruence.

01:27:10.540 So Catholics should not watch porn.

01:27:11.940 It seems to have really negative impacts on your marriages and lives.

01:27:14.200 But if you're not Catholic and you don't have negative attitudes towards porn,

01:27:18.360 you are way less likely to have issues with it.

01:27:20.300 Do you think that if you watch porn a lot and you're really into it,

01:27:23.460 you're more or less likely to step out on your marriage?

01:27:27.620 I don't know if there's any data on that.

01:27:29.380 Well, you said a lot, so you're adding kind of, like, an addiction.

01:27:30.980 The data would suggest-

01:27:31.860 Upwards of 90% of men watch porn.

01:27:34.180 I don't know if men who watch porn are more likely to cheat.

01:27:36.900 I haven't seen anything to indicate that, nor would that even be my-

01:27:40.180 The social scientific data that I've seen would suggest that regular porn use

01:27:44.900 is associated with all sorts of vices and pathologies, including marital infidelity.

01:27:50.300 And so that would be one thing you wouldn't want.

01:27:51.840 You wouldn't want your husband sleeping around with other women.

01:27:53.620 I don't mind if he watches porn, and I think a lot of women don't.

01:27:56.720 But what I'm saying is if watching porn made him less virtuous,

01:28:02.300 and even just the fact that you're trying to cook for the kids, right,

01:28:05.180 and you're trying to do something, and he's just in the bedroom somewhere

01:28:08.620 selfishly doing something that's kind of shameful,

01:28:11.280 and you don't brag about it, even if you're-

01:28:13.200 I watch porn.

01:28:13.940 What am I supposed to-

01:28:14.360 I'm supposed to tell him you don't do it, and I'll do it?

01:28:16.740 Yeah.

01:28:17.280 Well, no, neither of you should do it.

01:28:19.440 Neither of you should do it.

01:28:20.140 Sorry, I went that clipped.

01:28:21.360 You should do it.

01:28:22.140 But you should not let your own personal eccentricities,

01:28:27.680 or call it vices, stop you from recognizing them as vices per se.

01:28:34.100 It's not hypocrisy to have a standard and fail it.

01:28:37.880 And I fear that because we today have suggested that it is,

01:28:43.840 a lot of people recognize their problems with what they're doing.

01:28:47.340 You know, maybe you like porn a lot,

01:28:49.200 but there are a lot of people who worked in the porn industry

01:28:51.720 who have had terrible outcomes.

01:28:53.700 They leave the industry, they say it was just awful and abusive.

01:28:56.460 I'm with the sex-negative feminists on this.

01:28:59.020 I think it's really degrading to women.

01:29:01.120 And 97% of the recipients of violence and aggression in pornography are women.

01:29:06.720 It's usually not the men.

01:29:07.660 Maybe in some cases.

01:29:08.340 That's why OnlyFans, you should be pro OnlyFans then,

01:29:10.240 because it eliminates a lot of that.

01:29:12.020 Yeah, I mean, democratizing the pornography industry,

01:29:15.640 I don't know that that would shrink it, which would be my goal.

01:29:18.680 But even...

01:29:20.000 It would shrink the abuse, which it has.

01:29:21.440 It's the most ethical form.

01:29:22.720 It's the most ethical form to watch and to answer.

01:29:25.080 I don't know.

01:29:25.440 No, and ethical porn to me is sort of like a vegan lion.

01:29:28.980 Well, you just said, like, you have to hold yourself to a standard.

01:29:31.940 You're deciding that standard based on your values and your religion.

01:29:34.760 But I'm coming to my values through reason, I guess is what I'm saying.

01:29:38.420 I think that people have a conscience.

01:29:40.320 I think that, broadly speaking, our faculties of reason can tell us that,

01:29:45.720 you know, we all agree murder is bad, right?

01:29:47.760 We all...

01:29:48.120 And we just think it's objectively wrong.

01:29:49.300 It's not just wrong because we kind of feel it or we've decided it in some social science committee.

01:29:54.160 It's just objectively wrong because there's a transcendent moral order that's objective

01:29:57.860 and we can reason about it.

01:29:59.000 So I think we can all come to certain conclusions.

01:30:02.820 Then why haven't we?

01:30:03.700 Well, we have for most of history.

01:30:05.100 Well, no, murder, we're pretty much like all...

01:30:07.100 And that's an interesting thing.

01:30:08.220 Even abortion, like social attitude hasn't shifted much because murder,

01:30:10.880 people are still like, this is wrong.

01:30:11.980 But things like casual sex, porn, sex work, which we're...

01:30:14.820 A reason is obviously failing.

01:30:16.140 Maybe we malfunctioned evolutionarily in 2024.

01:30:18.740 Yeah, no, we're fallen for sure.

01:30:20.280 We have all sorts of...

01:30:21.020 But why is that reason, whatever reason you're having,

01:30:24.260 why is that not spreading?

01:30:26.800 Why is that not persuasive enough to convince people?

01:30:29.240 Because we're much less reasonable today than we've been in the past

01:30:31.880 and because, in fact, a lot of people deny objective truth.

01:30:34.740 I mean, it would seem you've all accepted my premises that I've just articulated

01:30:37.960 that there is objective truth in a transcendent moral order.

01:30:40.320 And so, you know, you're the creme de la creme, I guess.

01:30:42.700 But a lot of people, if you went onto the street and you said,

01:30:45.540 is there such a thing as objective truth?

01:30:47.420 They would say, no, there's no such thing as objective truth.

01:30:49.780 And there's good arguments, but there's good arguments for that.

01:30:51.600 There's good arguments.

01:30:52.200 You can even argue that you subjectively came to the objective truth of Catholicism.

01:30:57.160 You use your subjective opinions to follow that.

01:31:00.760 No, no, no.

01:31:01.020 An opinion is a statement of fact from one's perspective,

01:31:03.320 but it's a statement of objective fact.

01:31:04.720 It's not like a preference.

01:31:05.540 Why are you not Muslim?

01:31:06.480 You just didn't find it as compelling.

01:31:08.020 You didn't personally find it as compelling.

01:31:09.720 Right, applying my reason to facts, I found one to be more reasonable than the other.

01:31:15.920 And you could find a very reasonable Muslim who could say across and maybe in the future debate you here.

01:31:22.820 And they would have...

01:31:23.440 No, I mean, to give the Muslims...

01:31:25.360 Ben Shapiro used his reason to go to...

01:31:27.020 He used that man as not a Muslim.

01:31:28.140 No, no, no, I know, I know, but he chose, he thinks Judaism is the truth.

01:31:30.880 So you're all using, you're still, it's still a subjective...

01:31:34.400 Listen, Ben's, he's a very smart guy, but he gets a few things wrong.

01:31:37.160 Yeah, okay.

01:31:38.300 So, sure, people disagree and they, you know, come to wrong conclusions plenty of times, sure.

01:31:45.940 But, you know, without believing that our reason is somewhat reliable,

01:31:52.620 then we can't even really communicate, right?

01:31:54.260 I mean, there's just no objective reality that we could, that would even make this intelligible.

01:31:58.020 Quick thing, Pixie, and we are going to shift gears.

01:32:00.100 Go ahead.

01:32:00.320 I was going to shift gears right now, because I was going to say, or do you want to...

01:32:04.180 What topic?

01:32:05.660 It's biology, basically, or I'll just say it.

01:32:09.020 Gender stuff?

01:32:09.240 Yes.

01:32:10.160 Let's hit one topic, but we will come back to that.

01:32:12.780 How's that sound?

01:32:13.420 Let's go.

01:32:13.820 So I think when it comes to feminism, something that a lot of feminists fight for is abortion rights for women.

01:32:21.060 So I think I'd like to touch on that for a little bit.

01:32:24.340 So a good jumping off point for each of you, what is each of your basic stance on abortion?

01:32:31.520 We'll have you guys go first, then we'll have Michael respond.

01:32:34.400 And starting with you, Farah, go ahead.

01:32:36.420 On a personal level, I'm pro-life.

01:32:38.540 I wouldn't get an abortion, but on a macro level, I'm pro-choice.

01:32:41.560 Okay.

01:32:41.820 Yeah, I have very mixed feelings and thoughts when it comes to abortion.

01:32:46.340 I am, generally speaking, pro-choice.

01:32:48.900 Do I think abortion at any stage is moral?

01:32:51.860 No, not necessarily.

01:32:53.040 However, I do have strong reservations about the government being able to dictate when exactly,

01:33:00.020 or just deciding, oh, let's not have any pro-choice, pro-life all the way.

01:33:04.160 I have very strong reservations of the government being able to dictate a law to that nature.

01:33:08.560 So I have a mixed bag right now.

01:33:11.240 Jasmine?

01:33:11.880 Yeah, I think abortion is one of the hardest moral issues.

01:33:14.480 Like, it's so unique.

01:33:15.620 And I think anyone who thinks it's so easy on the other side just hasn't delved into this topic enough

01:33:19.760 because there's really good arguments for both sides.

01:33:21.980 I typically hold, like, the question is, when is that fetus or whatever you're going to call it,

01:33:27.460 depending on the stage, a person?

01:33:28.980 And I think the strongest argument for me is the consciousness one.

01:33:32.080 So to me, having a baby that's alive and something in a petri dish,

01:33:36.120 like, I don't see those two things as exactly the same,

01:33:38.760 but I do think there are really good arguments about it.

01:33:40.320 It's just a really hard topic.

01:33:42.040 Why would you not have an abortion for your own child,

01:33:45.900 but you would permit it or even maybe recommend it for others?

01:33:50.340 Same reason I've been vegetarian my whole life, but I don't force it onto others.

01:33:53.440 Like, I have my own personal visceral reaction to certain types of behavior,

01:33:56.540 such as, you know, hunting, factory, farming, and even possibly abortion,

01:34:00.600 but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm deducing some sort of, like, moral imperative from that.

01:34:04.360 Well, I should hope if you care about a bunny rabbit and, you know, you won't eat a hamburger,

01:34:08.800 then certainly you would care about a human being.

01:34:10.540 And it seems like that's the logical connection, sure.

01:34:13.520 But doesn't that then seem to be like saying, look, I would never murder my precious baby,

01:34:19.940 but all you often poor black people, you can kill your babies, that's just fine.

01:34:24.220 No, because I never said I'd do it because I view it as murder.

01:34:27.260 I said it's more of a visceral reaction.

01:34:29.180 So it's unreasonable.

01:34:30.100 You just think it's yucky.

01:34:30.920 Um, yes.

01:34:33.180 I found it yucky when you open the doll's mouth and put a cigar in it,

01:34:35.780 but I don't think that's wrong to do.

01:34:37.100 I find this disgusting, too.

01:34:38.240 It grossed me out when I was going to ask you to remove it.

01:34:39.000 Well, that was Michael's idea.

01:34:40.000 Depraved.

01:34:40.540 That was not my idea.

01:34:42.180 He was very excited to do it.

01:34:44.300 I did think it was very funny, but that was not my idea.

01:34:47.460 Look, I love what you just said.

01:34:49.100 It was, what a beautifully honest thing you admitted.

01:34:50.980 You said, I find abortion to be wrong.

01:34:54.160 I didn't say wrong.

01:34:55.280 For you.

01:34:55.660 Wrong for you.

01:34:56.560 When we say wrong, we're usually moralizing it.

01:34:58.400 I just said, I found it gross, and I had to look away when you opened the sex doll's mouth.

01:35:01.740 That doesn't mean I think it was wrong to do that.

01:35:03.060 It's abortion boo for her.

01:35:04.800 Yes.

01:35:05.480 You're saying, I find abortion repulsive, and therefore I wouldn't do it, even though I can't reason as to why I would do it.

01:35:10.440 The process grosses me out.

01:35:11.480 I find it gross to use a tampon.

01:35:12.540 I don't use one.

01:35:13.040 I don't think people shouldn't use it.

01:35:14.000 I'm with you.

01:35:14.440 I personally don't want to do it.

01:35:15.320 I find it invasive.

01:35:16.100 I find the process, you know what I mean, certain things be invasive, but that doesn't mean I'm going to prescribe it for everyone or even moralize it.

01:35:21.500 What you've just articulated is something called the wisdom of repugnance, which is an idea that was elaborated on by the bioethicist Leon Kass.

01:35:29.400 About 20 years ago, he had a famous book on this.

01:35:33.900 We don't write a moral treatise on every single thing.

01:35:36.800 I get out of bed.

01:35:37.400 Should I have eggs or pancakes?

01:35:38.780 I don't know.

01:35:39.160 Let me write a 10-page essay.

01:35:40.180 No, you just kind of go on your prejudices a lot of the time.

01:35:43.940 I know prejudice is a really nasty word these days, but most prejudices are right.

01:35:47.480 But sometimes they're wrong, like slavery, racism, racism.

01:35:51.800 But there were also plenty of people who recognized the moral.

01:35:54.460 But that argument doesn't pan out because you just said I should do some sort of correctness and morality for my prejudice.

01:35:58.820 But if I just said I enjoy getting abortions, like I love the process, it gives me pleasure the same way getting a tattoo would, you wouldn't then say that I should moralize that?

01:36:05.680 Virtually no people would say that.

01:36:07.000 What most women say when they support abortion is exactly what you just said, which is, well, I wouldn't do it, but I think it should be a right.

01:36:12.360 And so now I think, okay, I'm glad you've said you wouldn't have an abortion and you've arrived at that through prejudice or however.

01:36:18.560 I don't care how you arrive at it.

01:36:19.800 But now I think at that point we have to apply reason to this, which is, okay, why do you find it repulsive?

01:36:25.200 Well, because it's invasive.

01:36:26.400 Well, because I don't like stirrups.

01:36:27.900 Well, okay, fine, all those reasons.

01:36:29.720 But at a certain point, especially you really seem to care about living things because you don't want to eat animals either.

01:36:34.820 Okay, I think there's a moral difference between a human being and a cow.

01:36:38.000 Now, but what you're recognizing is there's something monstrous.

01:36:42.020 There's something morally significant about taking a life.

01:36:45.320 That's why I use the analogy, again, of you putting the cigar in the doll's mouth.

01:36:47.900 It also grossed me out.

01:36:48.500 Well, merely having a sex doll is morally significant.

01:36:50.900 You know, I mean, I'm glad that she's just being used as my debate partner here to help me so it's not three-on-one.

01:36:55.540 But, you know, if one were to use this sex doll in the way for which it was built, that would be depraved and disgusting.

01:37:01.960 And so, frankly, having her advertise my cigars is probably one of the most wholesome uses for the sex doll.

01:37:06.520 Right, so I personally wouldn't get a tattoo.

01:37:08.540 I find that process very repulsive, and the idea freaks me out, and I would pay to not get a tattoo.

01:37:13.040 Does that mean I'm moralizing it, and I should be, you know, moralizing that proclivity towards not getting a tattoo and prescribe that other people don't do it?

01:37:19.700 Yeah.

01:37:19.960 Like, why is abortion, why are you assuming that I'm not getting an abortion for some moral reason?

01:37:23.860 No, I don't think you're doing it for a moral reason.

01:37:25.700 I think you happily have arrived through your own natural tastes and preferences and prejudices at a correct moral conclusion.

01:37:33.580 But the moral conclusion, the reason abortion's wrong is because you're killing a baby.

01:37:37.380 You said you're a cow.

01:37:38.360 Why is it different than a cow to you?

01:37:40.760 Come again?

01:37:41.520 Why is a human different than a cow?

01:37:43.540 Because human beings are rational animals.

01:37:45.320 So is a retarded person less of a person than a non-retarded person?

01:37:48.560 No, all people have defects, you know, none of us, even me, none of us is perfect.

01:37:52.760 But the species of human beings, the thing that separates us from the animals is that we have will and intellect.

01:37:58.740 But if you found out that, like, cows have it, or if you found a person, or if you have a person who, there are people who have really significant brain defects, et cetera.

01:38:06.420 Yeah, yeah, there are people who have all sorts of disabilities and defects.

01:38:09.120 Well, if we're just going on rationality, yeah, but that's the whole thing.

01:38:12.780 Do you believe in contraception?

01:38:14.560 I believe it exists, but I would strongly discourage it.

01:38:17.500 Even for married couples who want to, like, child plan?

01:38:19.440 Yeah, I think couples should be open to life.

01:38:21.420 I think married couples should be open to life.

01:38:22.840 Wait, even though there's, like, an overwhelming amount of data that suggests that contraception lowers, like, abortion rates, basically, right?

01:38:29.540 If a person never gets pregnant.

01:38:30.800 Yeah, I think people should have more babies, and once they conceive the babies, they should also not murder the babies.

01:38:36.140 But I, yeah, I don't...

01:38:36.940 Wait, so you think married couples should just, every time they have sex, should get pregnant?

01:38:40.720 Or should be aiming towards getting pregnant?

01:38:41.940 You know, believe it or not, it's actually, it usually doesn't work quite like that, but I think they should have more kids, yeah.

01:38:47.240 Totally.

01:38:47.520 And there also, by the way, there are, again, it's morally controversial, but there are modes of a more natural process that would be able to quite accurately time a woman's menstrual cycle.

01:39:00.460 Until we're at the point where we're getting rid of abortion then, are you then in favor of contraception?

01:39:04.780 No, well, I also reject the premise that you've just made, which is that contraception reduces abortion rates.

01:39:09.680 I think, you know, there's a very easy way to cherry pick those data, because you can, you know, you can say, well, in this very small subset of data, where we give condoms to college kids or whatever, they have lower abortion rates.

01:39:21.100 But broadly speaking, over the past 60 years, we've had a proliferation of contraception, and we've had a proliferation of abortion.

01:39:28.400 The rates have spiked, and they've lowered it sometimes, but they've remained fairly high.

01:39:31.120 And the reason is more fundamental than statistics, which is that we have a mentality now that sex can come without consequences.

01:39:39.140 And so condoms can be very effective, and whatever, like, women put inside themselves, that can be very effective, too.

01:39:44.760 But sometimes it's not.

01:39:45.920 And by accepting the mentality that sterile sex is a right, it then implies a right to kill the baby, so you don't actually have to face the consequences when it happens.

01:39:55.080 I think I pushed back on the idea that, like, people were not having sex prior to contraception.

01:39:59.400 I've never suggested that.

01:40:00.500 Oh, hey, I thought it was suggested, because when you're saying, like, oh, no, abortion rates have gone up since contraception, I'm not sure if that's true.

01:40:06.800 They were having kids before contraception.

01:40:09.240 And they were also getting abortions before contraception.

01:40:12.060 No, no, I mean, you know, the other reason why it's, I think, silly to try to separate these two phenomena is they occurred basically at the same time.

01:40:19.580 So you had legal abortion beginning in 1973 with Roe v. Wade, though it had been legalized in other states prior.

01:40:26.040 This was, you know, the 1960s and 1970s, the sexual revolution, when contraception became much, much, much more popular and available, and abortion did at the same time, too.

01:40:34.860 So it's simply a fact.

01:40:36.040 As contraception became more popular, the abortion rate went up.

01:40:39.340 Now, you might say, well, those are disconnected phenomena.

01:40:42.480 Okay, maybe they are, but they certainly occurred at the same time.

01:40:45.080 At least to my understanding, and maybe we can even search this up right now, people did have abortions, or did have a high rate of abortion before, even like Roe v. Wade.

01:40:54.920 What would happen is that they were more like back alley abortions, illegal abortions, such abortions that, like, basically put the mother's life in danger.

01:41:02.780 No, none of that's true.

01:41:04.000 They were having abortions.

01:41:05.480 It wasn't at a particularly high rate.

01:41:07.920 The rate spiked after Roe v. Wade.

01:41:09.940 And it is true sometimes women died from back alley abortions.

01:41:12.680 There's a fake statistic that went around that was cooked up by the abortion industry, which said that thousands of women a year were dying of abortions just before Roe v. Wade.

01:41:21.040 Dr. Bernard Nathanson, who was the head of NARAL, the Abortion Rights League, admitted it.

01:41:24.820 They just made that statistic up out of thin air.

01:41:26.880 And we can fact check it because we have the statistics from the CDC.

01:41:29.900 So the year before Roe v. Wade made abortion legal nationally, do you know how many women died of back alley abortions?

01:41:38.160 I don't have a specific number from the top of my head.

01:41:40.360 39 is the number.

01:41:41.280 And do you know how many women died of legal abortions?

01:41:45.120 24.

01:41:46.020 And so almost the same.

01:41:47.540 But you'd say, well, it's a little bit higher for the illegal abortions, except that if you look at the number of states that had legal abortion versus illegal abortion, if you control for that variability, it comes out to almost exactly the same number.

01:41:58.060 And it was a very, very low number.

01:41:59.460 So, you know, there wouldn't be a recommendation of legal abortion.

01:42:02.960 To my understanding right now, if we decide to, like, like to take a state or a county where one county has a greater amount of contraceptive access and promotes it more, teaches kids about contraceptive use versus a county that there isn't that necessarily same level of sex education, the one that has the less amount of sex education, contraceptive access would have higher amounts of abortion.

01:42:24.720 Do you dispute that?

01:42:25.540 The one that has higher, did you say the one that has higher rates of sex education would have higher rates of abortion?

01:42:31.400 No, the one that has higher rates of sex education and higher rates of, like, contraceptive use will have less abortions than the one where there is no sex ed.

01:42:39.660 Basically, places that have less sex ed have higher abortions.

01:42:42.380 Well, it sort of, it depends.

01:42:43.660 It depends on if we're talking about a community that strongly discourages contraception and premarital sex and abortion, that would be less likely.

01:42:54.120 If we're talking about a community that has very low rates of religiosity and low rates of getting married but also low rates of sex education, which is just kind of liberal sexual revolution teaching, then maybe you would have higher rates of abortion there.

01:43:09.020 I don't dispute that at all.

01:43:10.440 I mean, we live in a culture now that is broadly supportive of abortion and of contraception, including religious communities.

01:43:17.340 But if you, you know, to use my own group of religious people, if you look at Catholics compared to the rest of the country, and then if you look at traditional Catholics, you know, guys who like the Latin mass and smells and bells compared to regular Catholics, the rates of divorce plummet.

01:43:35.300 The rates of abortion plummet.

01:43:37.800 The rates of contraceptive use plummet.

01:43:39.960 The rates of childbirth go through the roof.

01:43:42.580 And so the reason I pick that group out more than the others is they seem to have all of the pieces that I'm talking about here, whereas others, they might have one but not two, you know, or they might have three.

01:43:53.800 And so there, it's much harder to compare.

01:43:57.200 How do you make people more Catholic?

01:43:59.040 Well, you know, I'm doing my best, aren't I?

01:44:01.040 Yeah, you are.

01:44:01.720 I'm doing my very best.

01:44:02.420 But if it doesn't work, what's your plan B?

01:44:04.720 Because it seems like...

01:44:05.920 No, look, even beyond, if someone says, well, Michael, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I'm not a Catholic or something, okay, fine, you know, I'm just, all I'm doing is stating the truth as I see it, as clearly and often as I can.

01:44:17.400 And, you know, that led me to certain conclusions.

01:44:20.100 I hope it leads them to the same ones.

01:44:21.360 Yes, but if people are just, if first they recognize that the truth exists and that we have faculties of reason that can be knowable, that's good.

01:44:31.120 And if people recognize that we can, that there are better things and worse things and we can do better things and worse, that's good.

01:44:36.220 And if people recognize that having self-discipline is good and will lead to a more happy life, then I'm very happy about that.

01:44:42.420 And down the line, maybe I haven't convinced...

01:44:43.800 Is that not what people are doing right now?

01:44:45.080 Like, you don't think people are, like, you think people, like, it is the fact that people actually think it is better for the well-being of society to not stigmatize, like, gay marriage.

01:44:53.940 They believe that.

01:44:54.800 I don't think there's any such thing as gay marriage, you know, because I think it gets back to the feminist problem, which is I think marriage either has sexual difference at the heart of it, or it just doesn't mean anything, you know, it's just another group of people.

01:45:05.860 So then why don't you let them get married by the state if it just doesn't mean anything?

01:45:08.980 It's not up to me.

01:45:09.860 Marriage either means the union of a man and a woman, the complementary sexes, for the good of the spouse is sure, and for the creation of children, for the creation of a family, or it's just like your buddy.

01:45:22.880 But you said truth is just what's beneficial.

01:45:24.960 Let's say it's beneficial as a society to recognize those marriages.

01:45:28.280 It creates less turmoil, whatever.

01:45:29.940 Then is it true and is it good?

01:45:31.760 Is it beneficial to recognize a vegan lion?

01:45:34.420 You know, it's just not real.

01:45:36.060 And so we can pretend.

01:45:38.000 Is it beneficial to pretend that a man is a woman?

01:45:40.260 I don't know.

01:45:40.600 He might think it is for a short period of time, but it's not.

01:45:43.180 I mean, this is one of the problems, really, with the proliferation of porn and other vices and the drugs and all that stuff is it causes people to lose perhaps little control of their reason they previously had.

01:45:56.620 I mean, this is one of the really bad problems about all porn, OnlyFans included, but obviously the big industrial stuff too, is it appeals most basically to the prurient interest.

01:46:07.980 The thing that it does is arouses people.

01:46:10.440 And I, listen, none of you are women.

01:46:12.480 You're all women.

01:46:13.200 I'm not a woman.

01:46:13.820 And none of you are men.

01:46:15.660 I'll speak from the male perspective.

01:46:17.760 I think I'm relatively reasonable.

01:46:19.840 Relatively, at least.

01:46:20.780 I think I'm in, but.

01:46:22.480 Pretty reasonable.

01:46:23.440 Pretty reasonable.

01:46:24.000 Do you think all reasonable people would necessarily come to your conclusions?

01:46:28.160 Yes.

01:46:29.400 At least to a lot of them.

01:46:30.640 But I will tell you this.

01:46:32.180 If I am in a state of, you know, passionate excitement, if, you know, this is why I don't look at these things.

01:46:38.740 But if a man were to look at those things, he would lose control of his reason very, very quickly.

01:46:45.640 And that's degrading.

01:46:47.200 Even taking the actions outside of it.

01:46:48.820 You know, to have an industry out there, the purpose of which is to make men less reasonable and to do things that can be destructive to themselves or to their families or to whatever, is not going to lead to a flourishing society.

01:47:03.900 We all have sex drives.

01:47:04.940 That's just true.

01:47:05.600 If you could eliminate sex drives from people.

01:47:07.300 No, we all have sex drives.

01:47:08.340 But there's a.

01:47:09.880 I'm not saying.

01:47:10.340 Are you reasonable when you're having sex with your wife in that moment?

01:47:12.660 I think I am, actually.

01:47:13.980 I think I'm pretty.

01:47:15.040 More reasonable than others.

01:47:16.280 In the midst of it, you're joking.

01:47:18.420 I think so.

01:47:18.860 Look, I mentioned Dante before.

01:47:20.380 I love Dante and Divine Comedy.

01:47:23.120 I'm not saying we should deny our desires or suppress them or, you know, pretend that we don't have sex drives.

01:47:28.640 I got red blood, man.

01:47:29.840 I think that we need to sublimate our desires to the right ends and to the good place.

01:47:33.440 So you say, you know, if I'm doing the thing that men and women do with each other within the context of marriage, am I doing it in a reasonable way?

01:47:41.720 I like to think I am.

01:47:43.360 Meaning, is it open to life?

01:47:44.780 Is it going to produce children?

01:47:46.540 Is it degrading to one partner or the other?

01:47:49.040 I hope it's not.

01:47:50.040 Is it reasonable with respect to occurrence?

01:47:54.880 But you're assuming the only reasonable way to, I guess, yeah, or this urge that you have, the sexual urge, is if you do it in this context.

01:48:03.940 Yes.

01:48:04.320 But that's just your assumption, I think.

01:48:06.660 No, it's the conclusion I've arrived at through reason because I think there are ends to things.

01:48:10.200 You know, like the end of this delicious Mayflower cigar would be for me to smoke it.

01:48:14.200 The end of this cup of water would be for me to drink it.

01:48:17.160 But if you use the cup to kill a bug, are you misusing the cup?

01:48:19.680 You are misusing it.

01:48:20.840 It won't kill the bug as well.

01:48:22.120 I mean, I'm not saying that that's immoral necessarily, but it won't kill the bug as well as it will bring you water.

01:48:26.960 And so the purpose of my eyes is to see, the purpose of my mouth is to actually to smoke cigars, but maybe to eat is a secondary purpose.

01:48:33.060 And the purpose of my sexuality finds its expression in procreation, which is not going to happen between a couple of fellas or, you know, three dudes and a billy goat.

01:48:42.500 It's going to happen within the context of marriage.

01:48:44.440 Speaking of the cup, do you need a refill?

01:48:46.320 You know, I could.

01:48:47.280 Do you need a refill?

01:48:48.340 You're too kind, my dear.

01:48:49.520 Thank you.

01:48:50.120 Okay.

01:48:50.380 I feel very patriarchal.

01:48:51.980 That's very kind.

01:48:53.520 I do have a question for you.

01:48:54.660 I just want to find out what the threshold is.

01:48:55.840 Obviously, you morally condemn porn.

01:48:57.520 And I guess I want to know from like your trad con purview, do you also condemn strip clubs, obviously prostitutes, brothels, Playboy magazine, Victoria's Secret fashion shows.

01:49:07.860 What about Victoria's Secret fashion shows now feature like dudes and, you know, plastic bags.

01:49:12.300 So I don't even know if that's sexual anymore.

01:49:14.240 I mean, the traditional like VS angel shows do you condemn?

01:49:16.080 Because I guess I get annoyed when people just morally burden porn stars.

01:49:18.720 And I feel like it's just because of the financial component.

01:49:20.500 But then they're still, like I said, going to Hooters all the time.

01:49:23.120 And I feel like a lot of conservatives, especially trad cons, are okay with, you know what I mean, lusting after women in those combined settings.

01:49:28.980 No, I'm very opposed to lusting after women.

01:49:30.760 And I think it's tantamount to adultery.

01:49:32.720 So you and Morley condemn Hooters and Victoria's Secret fashion shows and any of those magazines.

01:49:37.340 I mean, again, there are different, obviously, these are differences of degrees.

01:49:40.700 So Hooters, you know, it's women wearing like tight clothing and giving you chicken wings.

01:49:44.460 And I'm not saying it's ideal.

01:49:45.860 I wouldn't recommend having Christmas dinner there.

01:49:47.480 But, you know, I think it's far less objectionable than, say, going to a strip club or going to the red light district or looking at pornography.

01:49:54.360 You know, the thing about pornography that's really in particularly bad about this, too, is it's so unnatural.

01:50:00.660 So, you know, on the one hand, you'd say, well, it's better to look at porn than to cheat on your wife.

01:50:04.960 Wouldn't recommend doing either.

01:50:06.460 But porn is even more unnatural because there's not even another person involved.

01:50:11.660 You know, it's just glittering images on a screen and then you're doing a shameful act with yourself.

01:50:15.240 What if you were watching it with your partner?

01:50:17.320 And there is data out there that that actually a lot of people report watching porn together actually makes their sexual relationship better and they report higher sexual satisfaction in that context.

01:50:25.380 Do you think it's OK or is it just immoral for you because you're a Catholic?

01:50:28.320 No, I think the reason that it's bad is, one, it would turn your sexual desire to another woman and it would view it would cause you to view women as sexual objects rather than as proper subjects.

01:50:38.760 And I think one of the other problems with porn that shapes the way you would view all women, including your wife, is that it treats people as commodities.

01:50:46.720 So what it does is it causes you to sell yourself as though you were just merely flesh, you know, for the irrational excitement of some other person.

01:50:55.860 And that is intrinsically degrading because you're a rational creature with a mind and a soul.

01:51:00.040 That's why I think OnlyFans is the best iteration of sex work because sex work, as they say, is the world's like oldest profession.

01:51:04.900 It's never going away.

01:51:05.740 Like even in 2005, which is over 10 years before the advent of OnlyFans, 16% of American men were buying sex and over half of them were doing it regularly from prostitutes.

01:51:13.160 So I don't like that we blame porn when sex work has always been a thing.

01:51:16.060 Even a lot of Christian men will go to the strip club like a week before getting married and that's considered like traditionally acceptable.

01:51:20.800 Exactly. And I feel like OnlyFans is the healthiest iteration even by your characterization because it reinstates the soul because the biggest OnlyFans stars are famous for their personality.

01:51:29.440 People like Amaranth, Belle Delphine, Bella Thorne, it reinstates that personality.

01:51:32.880 So I feel like it's actually reducing this idea of only lusting after a woman for her flesh.

01:51:36.440 It's actually three-dimensionalizing her again.

01:51:38.660 So do you think OnlyFans...

01:51:39.380 But it still reduces the relation of the sexes to a mere monetary transaction and it commoditizes the woman because she's the product.

01:51:47.660 I mean, isn't that capitalism though? Like when you have a cashier, aren't you like objectifying your cashier's contact creation as a whole?

01:51:52.860 There are major problems with capitalism. The cashier scenario I don't think is a great analogy.

01:51:58.420 But you have like if you're using like when someone, the mechanic is working on your car, you're not like super interested in his thoughts and feelings.

01:52:03.340 You're using him as a means to... So what is so bad about sexual objectification when we objectify celebrities, athletes, all these...

01:52:09.940 Because the mechanic is performing a rational and edifying action for me that benefits the two of us.

01:52:17.660 A prostitute, say, is turning herself into a mere instrument for my own lower pleasure.

01:52:25.360 So, you know, I totally agree with you that prostitution's been around forever and there have actually been moral arguments,

01:52:31.600 including from St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, against prohibiting this as a matter of law too aggressively

01:52:39.840 because you might, one might say that then society would be convulsed by lust.

01:52:43.180 So you have to strongly circumscribe it but not totally get rid of it and I don't know.

01:52:48.400 So you're a pro-only fan?

01:52:49.600 I'm not pro-only fan.

01:52:51.200 But you think it's the healthiest iteration?

01:52:53.860 No, I mean, you're asking me what's the least dangerous arsenic.

01:52:56.900 You know, I don't know. I guess there's some diluted form of it.

01:52:59.620 But they're all deadly. They're all going to get you.

01:53:01.640 Yeah, I guess I just didn't like this argument that the reason prostitution or pornography is worse than maybe like a Hooters

01:53:06.900 is because it's reducing people. You said it's like glittering pixels on the screen.

01:53:09.700 Yeah, the woman at Hooters is having a nice conversation with me and bringing me my chicken

01:53:12.820 and she's not actually stripping down and she's not actually performing a sexual act.

01:53:16.980 I find that more immoral. I feel like that's the more reductionist version of sex work

01:53:20.900 because she has to more perform a role versus if you're subscribing to a Twitch stream or you already like,

01:53:25.100 it's based off her personality. Like, she sets the rules, she sets the personality, she sets the interaction.

01:53:29.380 I think the audience sets the rules, really.

01:53:30.960 No, they're subscribing more for her personality.

01:53:32.620 And Hooters, it's already a predetermined role in uniform and costuming that they're assuming.

01:53:36.360 I suspect if you talk to the top-earning performers on OnlyFans,

01:53:40.400 they would tell you that the customer is always right.

01:53:42.280 They'd tell you the same thing that the cashier and the waitress.

01:53:44.260 I'm a top-earning, that's not true. I have very strict boundaries. I make the rules.

01:53:48.780 You don't take into consideration the desires of your audience? I don't believe that.

01:53:52.160 I mean, so do you.

01:53:52.540 So then you're commodifying yourself to the day, like, when you're doing your show on the day of the work.

01:53:55.580 But the thing that I'm selling is my opinions about the world.

01:53:58.280 Oh, I do, like, philosophy livestreams naked.

01:54:00.680 Well, then half of that is probably a good idea.

01:54:03.740 But, you know, the problem with doing it naked is it's kind of cheating, isn't it?

01:54:09.280 It's cheating because you're attracting eyeballs with something that is, you know, irrational,

01:54:14.820 and then maybe you're giving them some philosophy.

01:54:16.300 They don't have to be completely separate at all times.

01:54:18.440 Like, even in marriage, like, when you're horny, you're not, at that moment,

01:54:22.080 like, having this deep conversation, and you're so interested in their thought.

01:54:25.460 Like, you have, like, you can channel that in a healthy way.

01:54:28.780 So something that I found is a lot of men, when they would see me speak,

01:54:31.560 and they're like, I really like what you say, but now it's hard to jerk off to you

01:54:34.040 because I have this weird thing.

01:54:36.080 But then once they, like, get exposed to it,

01:54:38.240 now they're like, oh, actually, it's really cool. I love it.

01:54:40.280 Like, you know, we might have this inclination to see people in these categories.

01:54:44.080 I don't know about that.

01:54:45.640 These categories, but it doesn't mean that just because you're a sexual object in this context

01:54:50.180 that you are in every context.

01:54:51.940 Yeah, I guess it's just if you're, I think they probably make a good point,

01:54:56.940 which is I have viewed you in this degraded way,

01:54:59.700 and now I'm surprised to see you in a different way.

01:55:02.380 And that's why it's important to expose them to that because that's...

01:55:05.500 Perhaps.

01:55:06.040 But even the way you're talking about sexual desire still seems to be very self-regarding, right?

01:55:09.640 You're saying if you want to sleep with your wife, it's because you're Randy or something.

01:55:13.460 But that, you know, that would be the difference between, say, love and sex.

01:55:18.980 I think, I forget who wrote this.

01:55:20.120 Maybe it was Chesterton or Lewis or one of these guys.

01:55:22.800 The, you know, sex is...

01:55:24.240 Oh, no, it's Fulton Sheen, actually, the archbishop and former TV star.

01:55:27.980 Sex is totally self-regarding.

01:55:29.660 So when one looks at porn, it's to gratify one's own lusts.

01:55:33.660 When one is married or just even in love, one is willing the good of the other person.

01:55:38.840 And so you can...

01:55:40.200 This is not just pie in the sky, mamby-pamby stuff.

01:55:42.360 The result of self-regarding sex solo or with other people is sterility

01:55:49.700 and the instrumentalization of other people for your own desires.

01:55:53.680 The end result of love, which is giving to the other person, is to edify the spouse.

01:55:58.720 But it literally becomes so real that another person is created as a result of it.

01:56:03.100 Pixie, go ahead.

01:56:04.100 This doesn't have to do with the porn usage,

01:56:05.620 but I just want to circle back to something that's just been stuck on my mind.

01:56:09.500 Earlier, you were talking about basically these kind of biological imperatives

01:56:12.660 that women and men have naturally fallen to.

01:56:15.160 And then basically feminism is trying to destroy that.

01:56:18.140 That's my understanding of your argument.

01:56:19.780 But I don't think it's just biological, because I don't think we're just bodies and flesh.

01:56:22.980 I think we're also souls.

01:56:24.440 Souls and bodies.

01:56:25.200 Okay.

01:56:25.920 Because what I was going to say is that when people make these biological arguments

01:56:29.380 of men having to be this one way and women having to be this other way,

01:56:32.560 to me, that doesn't necessarily follow.

01:56:34.100 Because we've literally had laws after law in place trying to prevent women from getting

01:56:39.880 into the workforce, from being able to open a bank account, from even being able to pursue

01:56:45.120 certain legal matters.

01:56:46.560 So when people make this biological argument of like, oh no, men are just more naturally

01:56:50.540 inclined towards working roles, it would follow then that there would be no need for these

01:56:54.320 laws.

01:56:54.680 It would just be a biological imperative.

01:56:56.280 There's no need for you to have a law where blood flows through you or where you have a heart.

01:57:00.540 These are just things that are true.

01:57:02.020 But when it comes to our roles in society, and I think this is what feminists push back on,

01:57:06.940 it seems like instead of it being a real biological imperative, it is forced upon the social

01:57:12.160 structure.

01:57:12.960 Yeah.

01:57:13.500 Are you suggesting that women are as happy working in an office as a man is?

01:57:18.160 They could be.

01:57:19.440 Depends on the woman.

01:57:20.360 Hypothetically, I guess they could be.

01:57:21.280 But do you think talking to your female friends and looking at what social scientific data there are,

01:57:25.580 you really think women are as satisfied and happy in office work?

01:57:28.640 I definitely think so.

01:57:29.260 I'm just saying in the aggregate.

01:57:30.960 Yeah, I think...

01:57:31.560 If you're really being honest with me right now, I think you would say probably women

01:57:33.920 are less happy.

01:57:34.420 I don't think either of them are happy.

01:57:36.340 But which is happier than the other?

01:57:37.800 Yeah, no.

01:57:38.200 Which is happier than the other?

01:57:38.640 Well, what I think is interesting about this argument is that we do have a clear period

01:57:43.360 of time where, hey, women were staying at home, whatever.

01:57:48.120 Then when the men went out to war, they went towards these jobs.

01:57:51.780 And when the men came back, they didn't want to leave.

01:57:53.800 So to me, to be saying, oh, no, they're all in general happier at home.

01:57:57.800 Well, we had a clear period of time where women fought expressly against that.

01:58:01.960 No, we did.

01:58:02.600 And then we, as I mentioned earlier, we measured against it.

01:58:05.760 And we measured how it turned out.

01:58:07.720 And all but one of the surveys showed that the women became less happy.

01:58:10.860 So I'm totally willing to take these surveys with a grain of salt.

01:58:14.740 But in as much as we can measure them, they undercut your argument.

01:58:17.480 If there was a survey that showed that men are happier just sitting on their ass all day

01:58:20.420 on like some island just watching TV...

01:58:21.860 They are.

01:58:22.040 Do you think that they should strive towards that?

01:58:24.660 No, because they wouldn't be happier in the long term.

01:58:26.460 Because happiness is an objective matter.

01:58:27.920 It's not purely subjective.

01:58:30.060 So like men, though, truly...

01:58:31.960 This is why Genesis 3 is written the way that it is.

01:58:34.380 Men do not want to lord over women.

01:58:36.480 They don't want to dominate women.

01:58:37.600 They don't want to be knuckle-draggers.

01:58:38.620 You know what men want to do?

01:58:39.400 They want to sit on the couch and eat potato chips and be left alone.

01:58:42.020 That's what men...

01:58:42.800 That's the broken, dark part of masculinity.

01:58:44.060 I'm just saying I think everyone would be happier in the short term sitting at home on a couch.

01:58:47.940 That's why I think those studies...

01:58:48.920 No, I don't think so.

01:58:49.700 Self-reported happiness refers to that type of knot.

01:58:51.700 I think women would be happier in the short term playing the girl boss and having all sorts of, you know, color-coded notebooks and pens and stuff.

01:58:58.460 But they would find that they don't actually like it.

01:59:00.040 They don't really want to work at the law firm.

01:59:01.660 They don't really want to be in the widget factory.

01:59:03.960 They would rather do something that is more naturally feminine.

01:59:06.620 I think it's also interesting how you're ascribing these surveys of like self-reported happiness going lower as a result of being in the workplace.

01:59:14.440 When I wonder if you start...

01:59:15.780 And other things, yeah.

01:59:16.440 Yeah, because, yeah, exactly.

01:59:17.800 I wonder if when you start looking down into the specific reasons why a person might report greater amounts of unhappiness, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons that could range, right?

01:59:26.500 So, for example...

01:59:27.260 They're all feminists, though.

01:59:29.100 How you're like, let's say, experiencing like some sort of like sexual harassment in the workplace, for example.

01:59:33.860 Which in that case, it's not necessarily, oh, they're less happy doing work.

01:59:37.640 They're just less happy experiencing sexual harassment, for example.

01:59:40.320 I'm not saying it never happens, because obviously, you know, you hear some Me Too stories, Matt Lauer, whatever, you know, Vince McMahon.

01:59:45.940 I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

01:59:47.340 But these days, the law and the culture are so radically opposed to men and in favor of women in the situation.

01:59:55.440 The frequency of sexual harassment in the workplace is basically zero.

02:00:01.180 Can you give me an example?

02:00:02.600 And the reason why I'm asking for an example specifically is because I actually, as a feminist, think one of the failures of the Me Too movement was not being able to legislate a lot of the grievances put into place.

02:00:12.780 So even if, like, a company is not supposed to, like, sexually harass, or you're not supposed to sexually harass, you're always subordinate, whatever, whatever, most of these cases will never be criminal.

02:00:21.800 They'll just be, at most, civil, maybe, if they're even prosecuted.

02:00:25.960 Sure, but what are we talking about?

02:00:26.920 We're talking about an errant comment, or we're talking about, you know, I like your shirt today, Sally, or something?

02:00:31.680 Or are we talking about, you know, a rape or something?

02:00:33.660 Yeah, I guess what I'm asking you is, like, what specific laws have been put into place that heavily favor women against men?

02:00:40.860 Well, there are already laws.

02:00:42.020 There are laws against sexual assault, right?

02:00:43.780 But the HR practices that have been put into place throughout corporate America totally favor women.

02:00:51.000 If a woman comes in and says, you know, let's say a man and a woman in an office had a consensual affair, the minute that woman reports that that guy is gone, that guy is gone at every major company in America, let's say that a man just kind of seems a little creepy or makes a woman feel uncomfortable because he compliments her glasses that day or something, that guy is very likely going to be gone.

02:01:11.700 That corporate America has so taken the feminist position to heart that men don't even want to speak to women in the workplace.

02:01:21.240 It's one of the reasons that companies often don't want to hire women is they recognize that their legal liability goes through the roof.

02:01:26.820 That seems like an exaggeration.

02:01:28.100 Do you actually think that, that if a guy complimented a girl's glasses, he'd be fired?

02:01:31.220 I'm not saying she would report it because people are usually nice and men and women generally like each other.

02:01:34.860 But you think that's how much the institutions have overcorrected, that a man will get fired for just complimenting a woman innocuously and unsexually?

02:01:39.700 I think he very easily could be punished for that, yeah.

02:01:42.440 Maybe not outright fired, but he would face professional imprisonment.

02:01:45.220 I mean, it'd be cool to see stories of that.

02:01:46.580 I haven't seen anything anywhere close, and I feel like any type of conservative media outlet would jump on that hard.

02:01:51.700 All I've got are anecdotes here.

02:01:53.620 But no, I don't think the conservative media would because I'm not pro-sexual harassment.

02:01:57.420 Also, to go back to happiness and feminism and girl bosses and females in the workspace,

02:02:00.880 another reason that women could have lower reported happiness is because they're still shoring up on most of the household duties,

02:02:06.540 despite now also taking up, you know what I mean?

02:02:09.080 And they're doing still a lion's share of domestic work.

02:02:11.340 They don't get married anyway, so they don't even have households.

02:02:13.320 That's not true.

02:02:13.800 They're still cohabitating.

02:02:15.280 They're still, even within marriage.

02:02:17.960 I agree.

02:02:18.160 Cohabitation makes women unhappy too, yeah.

02:02:19.980 I mean, even within marriage now, you don't think a majority of, there's a ton of marriages in which women are also working,

02:02:24.820 and then also shoring up a lion's share of the household duties,

02:02:27.320 and that's why they're unhappy because now they're being burdened in two directions.

02:02:30.680 Yeah, sure.

02:02:31.680 But so what's the solution to that?

02:02:33.260 I think the solution is men shoring up more on domestic duties,

02:02:36.220 but they won't because of freaking tradcons and neocons who are telling them that it's gay and beta if they do these certain tasks.

02:02:41.160 It is gay and beta most of the time.

02:02:43.360 I agree.

02:02:43.660 And I also think that's why men are suffering.

02:02:45.160 So, for instance, like the unemployment rate of men returning back to the workforce is very, very high right now,

02:02:49.700 and that's because everything men in us, like tradcons and neocons.

02:02:52.700 What do you mean by neocons?

02:02:53.600 You mean like the sort of warmongering?

02:02:56.300 You're a neocon?

02:02:57.740 I'm not a politician.

02:02:58.220 You want to go invade Libya or something?

02:02:59.660 What does that mean?

02:03:00.720 I'm not the politics guy.

02:03:02.120 I think we're using neocon in a way I'm not familiar with.

02:03:05.920 I'm seeing Don Rumsfeld next to me.

02:03:07.940 A lot of just men in us are actually hurting men, and I think they're also hurting women.

02:03:11.760 They're also hurting women because, like I said, women are doing worse mentally because they're showing up on domestic duties,

02:03:16.320 and men won't take up these responsibilities because it's seen as gay and beta.

02:03:19.480 And we're, you know what I mean?

02:03:20.240 You guys are...

02:03:20.620 Wait, wait, wait.

02:03:21.620 There's an easy solution.

02:03:22.440 Wait, can I finish?

02:03:23.040 Sure.

02:03:23.640 Men in us are kind of pushing for this, like, revanchist return to just, like, older times,

02:03:27.120 and even though you claim you're not trying to turn the clock back, a lot of the solutions that men in us are advocating for just won't help men

02:03:32.960 because the burgeoning sectors right now are overly feminized and stuff like nursing, child care, hospitality.

02:03:37.740 And these industries are actually reaching out to men, and they're trying to recruit them, but a lot of men will turn them down,

02:03:41.740 and instead they're sitting on their ass.

02:03:42.880 They're addicted to opiates.

02:03:43.740 Like, over half of unemployed men are addicted to some sort of painkiller.

02:03:46.520 They're playing video games all day.

02:03:47.600 They're jacked up to porn, which is, yes, one problem, but there's so many others.

02:03:51.000 And feminism is what it's telling men, like, you know what I mean?

02:03:53.140 Leave your toxic masculinity behind.

02:03:54.660 Join a nursing career, join a teaching career, but they won't do it because of child cons and neocons telling them that they're gay and beta

02:03:59.900 if they do these kind of, like, un-warrior-like positions.

02:04:02.560 Hmm.

02:04:02.820 I don't know.

02:04:03.780 Am I in a warrior-like position?

02:04:05.340 What's that movie with De Niro and Ben Stiller, Meet the Parents, where he's the male nurse?

02:04:09.960 Yeah.

02:04:10.160 Do you agree with, like, Richard Reeves' take on, like, men should be, the way we pushed women to join STEM,

02:04:16.620 we should be pushing men to join HEAL, which is health, education, administrative, literacy jobs?

02:04:21.240 Like, do you think that there should be a push, like, instead of saying, men do this job and women do this job?

02:04:25.700 Like, I don't think track cons do as much as, like, red pillar, I'm not pointing to you to say you're a red pillar,

02:04:29.360 but, like, that men, your role is to be an ATM machine and to make money and, like, to be strong and fight,

02:04:34.620 and if you don't do that, then you're not a man, like, you're not as much of a man if you're a teacher.

02:04:38.200 Do you agree with that?

02:04:39.140 No, I've had wonderful male teachers, you know, I don't really care to push people to any particular field or other, I think.

02:04:45.780 I'm no libertarian, but I think the market will generally sort that out, and I think interference in that regard is usually, does more harm than good.

02:04:52.900 But, no, a man, but, you know, teaching is a very manly thing, actually, you know, I mean, it's, you're imparting wisdom and knowledge and you're, you know, shaping a young mind.

02:05:01.940 It's a very manly field.

02:05:02.860 I agree, but you said women are better at domestic tasks than men are, and a lot of these.

02:05:06.500 Yeah, being a teacher or a nurse is not a domestic task.

02:05:08.860 It can occur inside the home, and it frequently does.

02:05:11.380 But why does it seem like, why do you, why do people.

02:05:13.340 Domestic means within the home.

02:05:14.340 No, but why do people see it as feminine, like, people see nurses and teachers as feminine, like, a third grade male teacher.

02:05:18.660 Because they're very nurturing.

02:05:19.620 Yeah, so is that something that you think is better suited for women?

02:05:22.300 Yeah, I think women tend to be more nurturing than men.

02:05:24.040 But that's because of their experience in the domestic life, is that's why they're now more concurrent with these burgeoning industries, such as nursing, teaching, childcare, hospitality, food preparation.

02:05:32.380 It's because of what they're being trained to do at the home.

02:05:34.520 So when Tradcons say that, like, men should focus on public life while women should focus on these more domestic errands, they're actually hurting men in the long run because now men aren't equipped to do these burgeoning industries to work in them.

02:05:43.360 No, look, I think also, you know, don't forget, life isn't just set and static all the time.

02:05:48.120 A woman could, say, go to school and then work a job.

02:05:50.920 You know, I don't know, she teaches for a few years, and then she gets married, and she wants to leave teaching.

02:05:54.520 Or she's a nurse for a few years.

02:05:55.800 You know, we're not, we don't just, like, sign up like serfs for the rest of our lives.

02:05:59.900 We're just doing one task, but I do think that it's not just a matter of social construction.

02:06:03.800 I think women are more nurturing, and so are nurses more likely to be women?

02:06:07.940 You know it.

02:06:08.700 Are elementary school teachers more likely to be women?

02:06:11.200 Yes.

02:06:11.820 There are some men, but very few.

02:06:13.080 But that's interesting to say, because when we look historically, like, the reason why women tended to take those roles is because those were the only roles that society would let them take.

02:06:21.060 It was not necessarily.

02:06:21.420 So says you.

02:06:22.060 I don't really buy that.

02:06:22.860 No, we can, like, look at the laws right now.

02:06:24.620 The last name was Wu on The Researcher, where, like, if, right now we have, like, a certain percentage of women in STEM and a certain percentage of men in, like, heel types of jobs.

02:06:33.300 If people were actually choosing based on their interests, you'd get, you would still get more, you're right, but it would be, like, 30% men in the industry.

02:06:40.080 But people are often deluded by their interests, you know, and people have a view of what they will excel at and what they're inclined to do that is often out of step with reality.

02:06:49.540 And virtually no one.

02:06:50.160 But they're probably influenced by what society tells them they'll do that.

02:06:52.840 Totally, totally.

02:06:53.840 Which is that men shouldn't be teachers.

02:06:55.380 But ironically, I think we all concluded earlier that today it's the liberal feminist view that dominates all the major institutions, right?

02:07:01.320 Didn't we?

02:07:02.180 No, I think.

02:07:03.080 I thought that's what we said earlier.

02:07:04.520 When men cite not wanting to join nursing and teaching as part of the reason is because they see it as very feminine, you think liberal feminism is the culprit and not meninism or neocon slash shred con?

02:07:13.620 You know, the neocon thing keeps shaking because neocons refer to, like, Irving Kristol and Norman Pothoritz.

02:07:19.640 Okay, we'll just say conservative.

02:07:20.580 Do you think when men say that they don't want to join nursing and teaching, because the nursing programs and teaching programs have, like, put out, you know what I mean, research of why men won't join these industries despite them reaching out.

02:07:30.120 And one of the biggest reasons is because they feel like it's overly feminine.

02:07:33.100 Do you think that's due to liberal feminism or due to conservatism, that fear?

02:07:36.800 No, I think it's just natural.

02:07:38.180 I think it's just a natural thing about men.

02:07:40.440 They are not inclined toward those more nurturing professions.

02:07:44.780 But the alternative is they're sitting at home unemployed right now.

02:07:47.720 They're reaching out to unemployed men.

02:07:49.040 It's not men in STEM.

02:07:49.940 They're reaching out to men who are disaffected right now, and they won't do it still because it's seen as gay.

02:07:54.040 Yeah, I think the men should work, you know, but they should maybe do things that they're more inclined to do.

02:07:59.660 I don't think we need to conscript men to go become nurses wearing frilly little dresses.

02:08:04.520 But they're not more inclined to do because, you know what I mean, manual labor jobs are basically getting eradicated, and a lot of these men, not to be mean, aren't necessarily smart enough to go into STEM.

02:08:12.240 So I think other industries might be better for them, but they won't do it.

02:08:15.160 They'd rather sit at home to preserve their masculinity, and I think conservatism is to blame for that.

02:08:19.760 No, I think mass migration is actually to blame for the problem of the working classes not having as much employment as they used to, which is something that conservatives generally haven't pushed.

02:08:28.960 I think there are all sorts of political reasons that that happens.

02:08:31.360 But I don't think that any amount of feminist indoctrination and brainwashing is going to convince a man that he really wants to do an extremely feminine role.

02:08:41.300 It's not about what he really wants to do.

02:08:43.280 You know what I mean?

02:08:43.800 That's an entitlement.

02:08:44.720 It's not gay for doing.

02:08:46.060 That's a different thing.

02:08:47.260 A critique of liberal feminism is that liberal feminism has done a lot to push up women, but it has left, I think, men behind in a lot of ways, and this is one of those ways.

02:08:54.460 Also, we're painting with way too broad a brush.

02:08:55.980 I mean, a man can be a nurse, and there are aspects of the nursing profession that can be perfectly masculine.

02:09:00.660 Obviously, the same goes with teaching.

02:09:01.860 But broadly, if we want to zoom it out even further and say, well, these loser men who are all addicted to opiates and they're just sitting around with porn, these guys need to get off their behinds and take the only job available to them, which is to put on a frilly dress and be a girl.

02:09:15.860 I think that's a ridiculous, false dichotomy.

02:09:18.200 But why do you see that as putting on a frilly dress to go into nursing and hospitality?

02:09:21.240 Because you're using that example.

02:09:22.540 You're presupposing that it's feminine and gay.

02:09:23.660 You're doing the thing.

02:09:25.260 It is more feminine, yeah.

02:09:26.560 It's frilly dressy to go into nursing.

02:09:28.880 They wear frilly dresses.

02:09:29.700 You're telling your audience here, you're telling them that they're preserving their masculinity to sit at home and half of them being addicted to painkillers.

02:09:35.120 I'm telling you, I think it's a false dichotomy.

02:09:36.900 And I think the reason that you're picking those fields, which are-

02:09:39.560 Those are the most burgeoning 15 sectors right now.

02:09:41.880 A lot of other things are getting wiped out.

02:09:44.440 Nursing is like a good field to go into.

02:09:45.420 What are the other 15?

02:09:47.300 What are the other 13?

02:09:48.920 Janitoring, nursing, teaching, childcare, hospitality, food preparation.

02:09:53.140 Hospitality is not food preparation.

02:09:54.420 That's not true.

02:09:55.680 So which ones are frilly?

02:09:56.920 Just outline it for me.

02:09:57.480 Let's make a graph.

02:09:58.300 Which ones are gay?

02:09:59.100 I mean, the spectrum of-

02:10:00.120 So, like Emeril Lagasse, right?

02:10:01.740 Which one's most dick-sucking?

02:10:02.860 Yeah, Emeril Lagasse is not-

02:10:05.220 That's not too frilly.

02:10:07.060 You know, if you're a big man chef, you just like, bam, throw in-

02:10:09.840 That can be pretty masculine.

02:10:10.820 Don't you feel like you're hurting men with this kind of rhetoric of being like, you need to add so much machismo to these professions?

02:10:14.860 Be like, okay, maybe you should be-

02:10:15.500 I'm not adding anything.

02:10:17.300 I'm observing reality and articulating my perception.

02:10:21.320 The reason you chose nursing is because you know that it's a generally more feminine field.

02:10:25.020 I said nursing, teaching, childcare, food prep.

02:10:26.540 Right.

02:10:26.800 Well, there are plenty of male teachers.

02:10:28.260 They tend to be more at the, a little bit more at the middle school level, then more at the high school level, then many more at the college level.

02:10:34.300 That's true.

02:10:34.640 Where, where those teaching jobs require much less nurturing and a lot more just reciting facts and logic.

02:10:40.480 So, okay, I just want to ask, do you think it's better for a guy to sit at home and be unemployed than going to nursing?

02:10:45.320 No, I think it's better, I think it's better to work than not to work, as long as the work is not intrinsically immoral.

02:10:49.260 But ideally, they shouldn't pursue nursing because it's gay.

02:10:51.780 They can pursue whatever they like to pursue, but they, but you're asking me, why, why are these men not inclined to pursue careers that they consider feminine?

02:10:58.860 Because they're men, and because the differences between men and women are natural, and they're not contingent on what you say, and they're not contingent on what I say.

02:11:04.300 Okay, my question is that, again, if these things are so natural, and we can search it up right now if you don't believe me,

02:11:10.060 but why have there been laws in place preventing women from working in fields that are not nursing or teaching historically?

02:11:15.680 If this is a biological imperative, there would be no need for these laws.

02:11:19.740 I'd be curious to know which laws.

02:11:20.840 I'm not disputing that women have been encouraged to stay home, and that, you know, socially that's changed because of the Second World War,

02:11:30.180 or because of the advent of the secular revolution and contraception and all of these other things.

02:11:34.800 That's certainly true.

02:11:36.320 But I think that for a long time, we recognized that the family is the building block of society,

02:11:42.540 and so we wanted to encourage family formation and family stability.

02:11:46.960 And part of family formation and family stability is someone being able to raise the children,

02:11:51.800 someone being able to take care of the home while the other partner was outside of the home.

02:11:55.060 And you might say, well, why can't the man stay home with the kids, and why can't the woman go to work?

02:11:59.120 Yeah, it can happen.

02:11:59.960 They're just generally not inclined to do that because women are the ones who have the babies

02:12:03.620 and who are much sweeter with the babies and who are much more responsive to the baby's needs,

02:12:07.820 and men are the ones who generally are a little bit more outgoing and a little bit more publicly oriented.

02:12:12.020 You've been very nurturing to geeky.

02:12:13.560 I have.

02:12:14.180 I even gave her one of my precious Mayflower cigars, available at mayflowercigars.com,

02:12:18.320 but you have to be 21 years old or older.

02:12:19.740 Some exclusions apply.

02:12:20.600 We're going to read a couple chats, then we have two quick topics, and then we're going to wrap up here.

02:12:24.840 So we have Baby B, Michael, love you, dude, and your reaction to Ben's facts rap.

02:12:32.460 First time watching live, love the stupidity and facts on this channel.

02:12:36.740 Looking forward to more this year and maybe coming on sometime.

02:12:40.300 Okay, thank you.

02:12:40.960 So he's talking about my buddy, Dr. Dredel.

02:12:43.480 Is that?

02:12:44.280 Is that?

02:12:45.100 Okay.

02:12:45.780 Okay.

02:12:46.420 Yeah.

02:12:46.760 Yeah.

02:12:46.940 And then we have Scipio Californius.

02:12:51.900 Even mad experts don't agree that human life begins at conception.

02:12:58.540 20% to 50% of women experience miscarriages in the first 13 weeks.

02:13:02.400 Does that make those women murderers for not taking proper care of health?

02:13:06.560 Wow.

02:13:06.940 Everything about that was wrong.

02:13:08.220 You know, to be a murderer, you have to commit an action.

02:13:12.900 So if a woman miscarries, she obviously hasn't committed an action.

02:13:16.080 Her child has died, and it's terribly sad, and women suffer for that, and we don't even talk about it because we have to all pretend that the babies aren't really babies, so the women usually have to suffer in silence.

02:13:23.660 But I also love this idea, you know, oh, the experts say that logic isn't real anymore.

02:13:30.820 You know, what is a baby?

02:13:32.420 Conception means the beginning, right?

02:13:34.100 So a baby is conceived when the sperm and the egg come together, and they form a distinct human being with all of the building blocks and processes of a human being.

02:13:45.220 You might want to bury your head in the sand and deny that, but I don't see how you can say it's obviously a human being.

02:13:50.260 It's not a platypus or a cow, and it's obviously alive because it demonstrates all of the processes of life.

02:13:55.260 So you might say, well, the baby's not morally significant.

02:13:57.320 I think we should kill him anyway, but don't tell me it's not.

02:13:58.600 Would you run over a petri dish?

02:14:00.320 If you had to choose one, I'm trying to, like, weird crawly experiment where it's, like, a live two-year-old and then, like, ten zygotes, and do you feel like you should save the ten?

02:14:08.140 You're saying a zygote meaning that very earliest stage of conception.

02:14:11.580 Maybe, like, embryos were put into a freezer or something like that.

02:14:14.000 Yeah, isn't that life?

02:14:15.120 It would depend who the two-year-old is because there are gradations of charity.

02:14:20.520 You know, I owe greater charity to my family than I do to my extended family.

02:14:24.560 A stranger.

02:14:25.360 It's a two-year-old child, and it's ten zygotes, and you have to kill.

02:14:28.460 Which one would you choose?

02:14:29.760 It would be dependent on more factors than you're giving me because the way you're setting it up.

02:14:35.900 Oh.

02:14:36.660 Burns donated $200.

02:14:39.080 Men find fulfillment in providing for their families financially, which is why typically most men won't want to stay at home.

02:14:46.860 Taking time off with nothing to do for a work-oriented man is mind-numbing.

02:14:51.760 And yet they're doing it.

02:14:52.400 I think that's for anybody.

02:14:54.140 Yeah, but they go crazy, or they all get, like, addicted to drugs and get really sad and depressed.

02:14:57.760 So, yeah, they do it, but it's not fulfilling to them.

02:14:59.640 To your point, though, what you're setting up is premised on, like, a utilitarian ethic.

02:15:03.660 So, you're asking me, you know, to choose maybe, I don't know, the greatest good for the greatest number.

02:15:09.240 But that's not how I view ethics, you know.

02:15:11.180 No, I understand that.

02:15:12.040 My point is that do you view a zygote?

02:15:13.820 Like, if I knocked it in ten people, did ten people just die?

02:15:18.140 Yes.

02:15:18.240 Because ten zygote, okay.

02:15:19.100 Yeah, I do.

02:15:20.120 I'm not saying that I reflexively in a moment if a fire came, I wouldn't grab the two-year-old instead of the zygote or whatever.

02:15:26.880 But that is a human being, yeah.

02:15:28.900 We have a chat here in Burns.

02:15:30.700 Thank you for your TTS, by the way.

02:15:32.600 Juan Gomez.

02:15:34.100 Hey, thank you, man.

02:15:34.620 Appreciate it.

02:15:35.080 Men tend to be more interested in things, and women tend to be more interested in people.

02:15:39.600 That's going to play out on what people choose as their career paths.

02:15:43.200 Yeah, I agree with this.

02:15:44.180 I'm just saying that, like, let's say we have fifth, that's what the study showed.

02:15:46.740 Like, we have 15% of women, and then what if, if people were actually choosing, it would be now 30%.

02:15:51.160 It still would be, on average, that more women are interested in people and men are interested in things.

02:15:55.520 But if people are free to choose their own interests out without having any cultural or social factors in it, it's still true that more men may do this and more women may do this.

02:16:04.520 But more men than we see now may be in certain fields, and more women would be in other fields.

02:16:08.880 I don't even know what that means, though.

02:16:10.600 Like, women are more interested in people and men in things.

02:16:13.300 I guess my debate partner is a thing who looks like a person, but I'm very interested in people.

02:16:17.740 I don't even know really what that means.

02:16:18.900 Like, they mean, universally, when you look at careers, women tend to work with other people, while men are more interested in things like STEM and gadgets.

02:16:24.280 Oh, they'll, like, lock themselves in a room and solve for man's life.

02:16:26.440 They use the example of, like, little boys with trucks and little girls with dolls.

02:16:29.880 That's what they...

02:16:30.620 That's true.

02:16:31.200 Michael Knowles' garden donated $200.

02:16:34.600 My sprinkler goes like this.

02:16:40.820 Okay.

02:16:44.740 Comes back like this.

02:16:47.020 Interesting.

02:16:48.380 Yep.

02:16:48.900 Do you have a sprinkler system in your...

02:16:52.640 I did, and I gave him a phone, actually.

02:16:54.600 Okay.

02:16:54.980 I did, and I thought...

02:16:56.540 I just said, like, to my garden system, I said, call me if anything goes wrong.

02:17:00.220 But he's abusing that, what I gave him, and now he's subscribing, giving away $200.

02:17:04.220 Where'd you get that $200 garden?

02:17:06.100 That comes from me.

02:17:07.020 That's sprouted from my land.

02:17:09.320 Last two things.

02:17:10.200 Since we were talking about professions for a little bit, an often thing that...

02:17:14.200 Often topic that I hear in feminist discourse is the wage gap.

02:17:20.840 Do you guys believe that there is a wage gap?

02:17:24.920 I mean, yeah, there is a wage gap.

02:17:26.720 Like, women generally make less money than men.

02:17:28.780 Whether it's morally okay or not is a different question, but it's undeniably there.

02:17:32.640 Pixie?

02:17:33.380 Yeah, there is a wage gap.

02:17:35.060 Jasmine?

02:17:36.100 I agree that there technically is, but the reasons for it may be, like, I do agree with

02:17:41.200 that argument that men may take on longer hours, et cetera.

02:17:43.720 Women leave to take care of their kids.

02:17:45.080 Now, would women choose, like, the way the system is set up to take that negative impact

02:17:50.080 of going home with their...

02:17:50.860 Because when women leave to take care of their kids, it's really hard to get back into the

02:17:53.520 workforce.

02:17:54.200 Would they choose that?

02:17:55.200 Is that ideal?

02:17:56.360 No, but that's the way our system is set up.

02:17:58.860 So I think there's a lot of variables here.

02:18:00.280 And it's the way all work is set up, right?

02:18:02.000 You're always going to prioritize more consistent experience.

02:18:04.140 Yeah, I totally agree with your view.

02:18:05.840 Sure, it exists, but trust me, if any business could save 25% of labor costs by hiring women,

02:18:11.940 only women would be working.

02:18:13.140 It's obviously because women don't work as long hours.

02:18:17.080 They like to spend more time with their kids.

02:18:18.280 They take time off, of course.

02:18:19.500 And that cost that they take for that is unfortunate, but yeah.

02:18:22.480 Maybe.

02:18:23.000 I think it's good.

02:18:23.740 I think it's good for them to spend time with their kids.

02:18:25.800 I think it's better than working in the widget factory.

02:18:27.400 Pixie, do you think that the gender wage gap, gender earnings gap, is it due to some

02:18:34.540 of the reasons that Jasmine articulated, or do you think it's due to perhaps sexism?

02:18:39.060 No, there are obviously cases where this is a case, right, where there's difference in

02:18:43.140 hours and stuff.

02:18:44.040 But there have been a decent amount of studies showing that even when things are all equal

02:18:49.180 between resumes or even between job performance, when conducted blind, the woman will get the

02:18:56.320 proper appraisal, approval, whatever.

02:18:58.520 But if it's a gendered name, or even if it's just viewed as gendered or whatever, women will

02:19:04.220 suffer.

02:19:04.760 So there is a pre-societal connotation on the idea that, hey, women are less able or apt to

02:19:12.380 do certain X or Y tasks.

02:19:13.740 I do have, I know I'm kind of moderating this, I just want to jump in on one thing.

02:19:18.860 This was a couple of years ago.

02:19:20.300 I think Google did a very thorough and in-depth review of how they were, I believe, paying their

02:19:25.580 engineers.

02:19:26.160 Perhaps it was a different segment of their employees.

02:19:29.360 And they actually found that they were underpaying the men and overpaying the women.

02:19:34.260 Would that then be evidence that Google was or is sexist towards men?

02:19:41.060 It could be.

02:19:41.600 I would have to see the studies specifically and what they accounted for.

02:19:44.520 But yeah, it's theoretically possible for a company to also be sexist towards men.

02:19:49.320 Yeah.

02:19:49.980 Yeah, for sure.

02:19:50.880 I, you know, I recently was negotiating my contract with my beloved employers and I was

02:19:55.840 talking to my wife who gives me a lot of advice.

02:19:58.080 And I said, should I ask for a little bit more on this thing or that?

02:20:02.200 She was like, I don't know, Mac.

02:20:03.340 I don't know.

02:20:03.680 I would just take what they offer you.

02:20:04.720 It's really nice.

02:20:05.320 I would just, no.

02:20:05.960 I said, yeah, but I don't know.

02:20:06.920 They want me to kind of, I'm not, you know, they're going to not respect me if I don't.

02:20:10.200 And she was like, oh, Mac, this is why women make 25% less money because we just don't

02:20:14.080 want to negotiate.

02:20:15.400 And I totally agree.

02:20:16.220 Is your wife a South Park character?

02:20:17.520 She is.

02:20:18.060 I believe it.

02:20:18.720 She's a mixture of Minnie Mouse and Cartman and like Consuela.

02:20:23.960 I don't know.

02:20:24.540 I've been doing that voice for her for like 15 years now.

02:20:26.720 I was like, I got to Google his wife after this.

02:20:29.340 That's amazing.

02:20:30.120 So accurate.

02:20:31.820 Yeah.

02:20:32.140 Okay.

02:20:33.280 Any other, anything else on the wage gap, Michael?

02:20:36.320 No, it's real, but it's fine.

02:20:38.340 Like, you know, raising kids is good.

02:20:40.660 Having, you know, who cares, man?

02:20:43.760 Money is great.

02:20:44.460 I like money.

02:20:44.980 I like being able to pay my bills.

02:20:46.220 I like being able to buy nice cigars like Mayflower Cigars, MayflowerCigars.com, 21 years

02:20:50.000 older, older to buy them, exclusion supply.

02:20:51.820 But like, you know, there's more to life than money.

02:20:54.060 This is only $14 a stick.

02:20:55.400 That's a great price.

02:20:56.200 After a box discount, it's like $9 a stick.

02:20:58.580 You know, what are you going to do with all this money?

02:21:00.140 You're going to just pile it up and buy more stuff?

02:21:02.380 Who cares, man?

02:21:03.080 They used to say that kids were the poor man's wealth, you know, and kids, I'll tell you,

02:21:07.180 I take my job seriously.

02:21:08.600 I love my career.

02:21:09.940 I love being in public life and having whatever political influence I have.

02:21:13.000 It's awesome.

02:21:14.180 It means nothing compared to having children.

02:21:16.680 I finished my first book with words, Speechless, when I was in the delivery room with our first child.

02:21:22.740 And my wife's there pushing out this kid, and I'm there finishing the final edits on my book to send in.

02:21:27.420 They were both due on the same day they both came.

02:21:28.860 And I thought, okay, I've finally done it.

02:21:31.260 I poured my heart and soul into this 18 months of writing.

02:21:33.380 And I look over at my kid, and I realize that my book doesn't matter at all.

02:21:39.140 And I think it's a good book, and it became a number one bestseller, and it matters nothing compared to a baby.

02:21:46.080 And so I just think, good grief, woman.

02:21:47.980 You know, you're going to put off having a family, this wonderfully edifying thing, to go make like an extra 50 grand a year?

02:21:56.180 And 150 grand a year.

02:21:57.180 Who cares?

02:21:57.640 Like, are you kidding me?

02:21:58.640 What a terrible deal.

02:21:59.980 There's two things I want to say on that topic.

02:22:02.160 The first one is hopefully we both can agree that the wage gap is a problem if, let's say, two people are doing the same exact work or whatever.

02:22:10.400 One shouldn't be looked down upon by their sex.

02:22:12.600 Yes, again, we said that there's cases where we understand the wage gap, but hopefully we can agree on that.

02:22:17.440 When all factors are equal, that should not be.

02:22:19.600 If my grandma had wheels, it should be a wagon, sure.

02:22:22.380 If things were different, they'd be different.

02:22:23.900 Okay, and I guess the second thing is that I think the misconception or what's being downplayed here is that there are strong correlation,

02:22:32.920 if not just straight-up causation, of being able to have a kid that's healthier, more educated, has better life prospects.

02:22:40.840 Just overall, a better life if you can afford a better life for them.

02:22:46.380 So I think there is something to be said about, like, hey, you don't have to be the top 1% owner.

02:22:51.360 You don't need that extra 25% in your income.

02:22:53.960 Yeah, but I think there is also something to be said about, like, hey, a lot of these women, the reason why they still want to work or they're still interested,

02:23:00.480 because they want to provide the best possible life they can for their family.

02:23:04.980 So I think there is a balance to be struck there.

02:23:07.240 I don't think it's all just like, oh, it's kind of frivolous money.

02:23:09.740 We have a bad political economy right now that basically forces women to work even when they don't want to, so it's no longer a choice.

02:23:15.960 It's more an obligation for most people, and I agree that's bad, and we should take political action to change that.

02:23:21.820 I'm all for that.

02:23:22.420 I think that would be great.

02:23:23.160 However, you can raise kids on not a lot of money.

02:23:27.620 You know, I didn't come from a ton of money, and I know a lot of my friends didn't come from a ton of money,

02:23:31.260 and, you know, yes, you need to be able to eat.

02:23:33.440 You need a roof over your head.

02:23:34.740 You need some clothes.

02:23:35.840 But you can do that for a lot less than we have now.

02:23:38.700 The problem is the two-income trap is that once you start living that dink lifestyle, you know, dual income, no kids,

02:23:45.920 or the dinky lifestyle where it's like no kids yet, you get accustomed to a standard of living that you don't want to give up.

02:23:51.580 But it's worth it.

02:23:54.060 Yeah, make sure you can feed your kids, but make sure you have kids to feed.

02:23:57.560 Last two things here on the wage gap.

02:23:59.460 When it comes to things like sports, for example, you know, we've had in the national U.S. women's soccer team,

02:24:08.040 they actually filed a lawsuit.

02:24:10.640 I don't know if you guys are familiar with that at all.

02:24:12.240 So do you guys think that, for example, between the NBA and the WNBA or the women's national soccer team compared to the men's,

02:24:20.300 do you think there should be an equalization in what they're paid?

02:24:24.680 No, because one generates more money.

02:24:26.100 Pixie?

02:24:26.640 Yeah, I feel similar.

02:24:28.020 Yeah, let's go.

02:24:29.500 You guys are the most patriarchal feminists I've ever seen in my whole life.

02:24:33.120 But then in OnlyFans, we make more money, you know?

02:24:36.180 Yeah, should there equal pay for men on OnlyFans, I think, is our next thing.

02:24:41.540 You're just mad I'm beating you.

02:24:42.940 Pretty much.

02:24:44.320 And last thing.

02:24:45.980 You have an OnlyFans?

02:24:46.880 For his feet, right?

02:24:47.860 No.

02:24:48.280 What?

02:24:49.000 What do you sell on OnlyFans?

02:24:50.500 Nothing.

02:24:50.840 I don't have.

02:24:51.440 We do technically have OnlyFans.com slash whatever.

02:24:56.220 There's one clothed picture of Kiki.

02:24:59.080 That's it.

02:24:59.780 Wow.

02:25:00.300 So it's not you.

02:25:01.340 No, no, no, no.

02:25:01.760 I could see people paying for Kiki.

02:25:03.960 Yeah.

02:25:04.840 With her beautiful cigar.

02:25:06.820 You know what?

02:25:07.580 Well, okay.

02:25:08.620 Last thing on the wage gap.

02:25:10.000 Um, do you, uh, I have a question for the three of you.

02:25:14.860 Do you, uh, when it comes to, like, dating, right?

02:25:17.720 And we are going to have a dating talk after this with Michael joining us on that.

02:25:22.000 Uh, when it comes to dating, who do you, do you guys want a guy to be a provider?

02:25:26.020 Do you want him to, for example, pay on first dates?

02:25:28.320 Just starting with you, Farrah, going across?

02:25:30.260 Do I want him to be a provider necessarily in terms of, like, rent?

02:25:33.040 Not necessarily.

02:25:33.780 Like, I'm planning on buying my own house regardless of what my partner makes.

02:25:36.860 Sure.

02:25:37.060 When it comes to paying on the first date, I would prefer a partner who does that.

02:25:40.080 Not necessarily because I need the money or I'm gold digging.

02:25:42.840 But I think as a woman, we are just way more sexually selective.

02:25:46.000 And so the chances of me even swiping on a guy in a dating app and then actually pursuing

02:25:49.040 the date are so slim versus a guy's going to take up any woman.

02:25:51.700 So I think actually having to shore up resources shows, like, an equal measure of selectiveness.

02:25:55.440 Sure.

02:25:55.700 Go ahead.

02:25:56.620 Um, personally, I don't really care about, like, splitting on a first date.

02:25:59.920 I do think it is more attractive when a guy does that.

02:26:02.700 More attractive.

02:26:03.020 But I think it's probably one of the reasons that Farrah listed.

02:26:04.940 Um, dual, what is it?

02:26:07.320 I want somebody who makes around the same income as me or higher.

02:26:11.240 I'd be okay dating somebody who makes less, um, on the condition that they're taking up

02:26:16.440 more of the household labor, which is statistically not likely.

02:26:19.840 And Jasmine, what about you?

02:26:20.780 Uh, first date, like, I just feel like if the person who asked should pay and I feel like

02:26:25.060 if a guy doesn't, I just get this idea he's stingy and I'm definitely not stingy.

02:26:28.780 Like, I like to pay for as many people as I can.

02:26:30.500 And then when it comes to the other question, I actually, like, I have such high standards

02:26:34.380 when I look for things like intellect, humor, that I don't, that's why I make a bunch of

02:26:37.740 money myself.

02:26:38.440 Like, I'm actually looking for a really hot chef.

02:26:40.400 He doesn't have to make money.

02:26:41.540 He'll just stay, because I can't cook.

02:26:42.800 So I'm looking for a homemaker.

02:26:44.040 So slide in my DMs.

02:26:44.940 You want a wife?

02:26:46.540 Yeah.

02:26:46.860 But like a hot chef.

02:26:47.820 You did say whoever I should pay.

02:26:49.420 More often than not, though, are you asking men out?

02:26:52.320 No.

02:26:52.920 Have you, do you ask men out?

02:26:53.980 I don't ask men out.

02:26:54.740 Well, that's, it's sort of almost de facto.

02:26:57.020 I agree.

02:26:57.540 I think it's funny when feminists say, like, no, whoever I should pay.

02:26:59.900 It's like, well, you're begging off the fact that, like, men usually ask.

02:27:02.280 Well, that's because we're more selective.

02:27:04.220 Well, it's more selective.

02:27:05.160 The thing about you, you just said, it's we're more selective.

02:27:07.480 I don't know.

02:27:07.600 I just think it's funny the semantics to just say, like, no, no, I don't think the men

02:27:10.260 should pay.

02:27:10.280 You may as well say men should pay.

02:27:11.480 Yeah, that's what I mean.

02:27:12.240 Why do you want your own house?

02:27:15.060 So I could just be financially dependent, pick where I want to live.

02:27:18.140 Even if you're married?

02:27:19.340 Um, yeah, like, I would probably buy a house before pursuing dating for marriage.

02:27:24.700 Yeah.

02:27:25.200 So what, and then he would have his own house and you'd.

02:27:28.020 I guess from there we would figure it out from there if we wanted to sell the house or

02:27:30.740 both live in the house, like, I'd be fine moving a guy into my house.

02:27:33.160 Yeah.

02:27:33.580 But, and you would still own the house or you'd split the house with him or he, or

02:27:36.760 you'd transfer it to him.

02:27:38.140 I wouldn't transfer it to him.

02:27:39.420 It would be my house for sure.

02:27:40.520 You would have separate finances.

02:27:42.400 Uh, I don't know about that, but in terms of like where I want to live, I'm 100% picking

02:27:45.680 that on my own and getting my own house.

02:27:47.580 Okay.

02:27:47.840 So if the man comes and goes.

02:27:49.360 So your bank accounts would go together, but you'd keep the house in your name.

02:27:53.140 Um, if we're married, I guess we'd figure it out as we go, but I'd probably like date

02:27:57.080 someone and then, I don't know.

02:27:58.700 I just don't want to be dependent.

02:27:59.540 I don't want to like move to an area.

02:28:00.600 You don't want to be dependent.

02:28:01.120 Right.

02:28:01.540 Exactly.

02:28:01.900 You don't want to be dependent.

02:28:02.720 So why get married?

02:28:05.180 Why get married?

02:28:06.200 Yeah.

02:28:06.580 I could be independent.

02:28:07.960 It'd be, I could live on my own.

02:28:09.200 I could hire a maid.

02:28:09.960 I could hire a cook.

02:28:10.740 I could just whatever, you know, I don't want to be independent.

02:28:13.780 I want to be dependent on my wife.

02:28:15.660 I love my wife.

02:28:16.480 I want to make a vow that I'm going to stay with my wife forever and have a nice big

02:28:19.780 family.

02:28:20.140 And I don't want to be separated at all.

02:28:22.000 I want to be one flesh with my wife.

02:28:23.960 If I didn't want to do that, if I wanted to just be on my own, but have someone to mitigate

02:28:28.560 the loneliness and occasionally sleep with, why get married at all?

02:28:33.000 I do want to get married.

02:28:34.240 I am going to eventually date to marry, I think.

02:28:36.420 Like my goal is to eventually start dating in like a year, date in under three months,

02:28:39.740 get engaged, get married.

02:28:40.400 I don't want to do the like multi-year dating and like cohabitating before.

02:28:43.520 I think that's a joke.

02:28:44.280 I think it's a waste of time.

02:28:45.700 But why do it?

02:28:46.820 I'm also cognizant of the fact that men today are a joke and there's a one in four chance

02:28:50.560 that your husband's going to commit infidelity.

02:28:52.140 And I don't believe in necessarily like pursuing their marriage if they cheat on you.

02:28:53.900 There are things you can do to mitigate those stats though.

02:28:56.100 Mitigating infidelity on my husband's part?

02:28:58.160 What?

02:28:58.860 Being a fucking blow doll for him?

02:29:00.340 No, I wouldn't recommend that either.

02:29:03.580 No, the things you could do is marry men who, for instance, don't recognize the sacramental

02:29:09.460 reality of divorce.

02:29:11.520 Just to use one example.

02:29:12.400 That's not what I said.

02:29:13.100 I said infidelity.

02:29:14.520 Or who recognize that infidelity is...

02:29:17.260 Every man I've ever dated has been Christian conservative.

02:29:19.940 And at least one of them, I found an Oculus in his closet where he's watching VR porn.

02:29:23.660 In my experience, like I said, at the macro level, it's usually these Christian conservatives

02:29:26.980 who are the most porn addicted.

02:29:28.220 And at a micro level, these men I'm dating.

02:29:29.780 You date a lot of these Christian conservatives.

02:29:32.400 There's something about them that attracts you.

02:29:34.540 Well, I'm waiting until marriage.

02:29:36.040 Good.

02:29:36.460 Oh, good.

02:29:36.980 So you don't...

02:29:37.640 Okay.

02:29:38.140 Well, look.

02:29:38.580 I think that's fabulous.

02:29:39.720 And I love that you as a feminist are very attracted to Christian conservative men.

02:29:43.400 I think that's good for society broadly.

02:29:46.320 It's bad that these guys are like looking at porn or whatever.

02:29:49.400 I don't know that that necessarily implies that once they get married, they would either

02:29:52.880 continue to do that or would step out on you and cheat and have an affair or whatever.

02:29:56.140 It does seem to me, though, that certain groups of men are less likely than others to sleep

02:30:01.300 with other women.

02:30:02.100 And so, you know, if you want to have that good, stable life and maybe overcome your fears

02:30:07.820 of being dependent on someone who might be a total loser, then you might want to make

02:30:11.840 sure you don't pick a total loser.

02:30:12.840 But even stepping out of sight, I mean, I give you those stats about correlation between

02:30:16.500 religious men and pornography consumption and prostitution purchasing.

02:30:20.300 So how can you say that?

02:30:21.440 Some people who are broadly religious of some sect or other do that, and all people are

02:30:26.940 tempted by things.

02:30:28.340 But I don't think that we can just throw our hands in the air and fall into a kind of romantic

02:30:32.040 quietism and say, well, they're all just...

02:30:34.400 These men are all dogs.

02:30:35.940 They're all cats.

02:30:36.480 No, actually, some men are more inclined to virtue than others.

02:30:40.740 And, you know, that might, if you...

02:30:43.780 But based off the stats, it would seem the religious men are less inclined to virtue.

02:30:47.100 No, not at that.

02:30:47.960 They're watching porn and buying sex.

02:30:48.980 That's ridiculous.

02:30:49.780 You're telling me that Christian men are more like...

02:30:53.420 No, no, no.

02:30:53.740 You gave me a stat and said, you know, certain red states with certain religious groups consume

02:30:58.260 certain kinds of porn or whatever.

02:30:59.640 The more Christians are in a state, the more pornography consumption and searches there are in

02:31:03.440 prostitution purchases, yes.

02:31:04.800 It would seem that perhaps there are other factors at play there when you're talking about

02:31:08.940 a full state.

02:31:09.860 I don't know.

02:31:10.300 When you're talking about class, income, when you're talking about education, when you're

02:31:14.040 talking about family formation in the first place, when you're talking...

02:31:17.500 For goodness sakes, when you're talking about geography, you know, we're talking about whole

02:31:20.280 states here, and you're pulling one variable out and saying, see, there it is.

02:31:23.820 The correlation is the causation.

02:31:25.540 That's crazy.

02:31:27.480 Oh, you were cut...

02:31:28.320 It's okay.

02:31:28.800 You can cut me off.

02:31:29.520 That's fine.

02:31:29.860 My only question to you is, you're saying that the thing that is preventing you from

02:31:37.320 wanting to be codependent on a man, actually engage in this marriage, totally giving it

02:31:41.940 yourself to you.

02:31:42.140 Is it because I have become disillusioned with the state of tradcons, and I think they're

02:31:45.020 a hoax?

02:31:45.500 No, you don't think it's...

02:31:46.400 You're picking on tradcons because you think that they're your ideological opponents.

02:31:50.940 I don't think they are necessarily.

02:31:51.500 I don't think so, but if that was the case, I wouldn't date them.

02:31:53.700 Well, I think that if one identifies as a liberal feminist, then necessarily tradcons are your

02:32:00.660 ideological foes.

02:32:01.860 I completely disagree.

02:32:02.620 But I agree that you're attracted to them.

02:32:03.840 I think they have very similar perceptions of hookup culture in a lot of things, depending

02:32:07.160 on the sect of feminism I am.

02:32:08.800 I actually find way more common ground with conservative men than liberal men.

02:32:13.240 I like...

02:32:13.900 That's fabulous.

02:32:15.040 But you think they're not living up to it.

02:32:16.940 Okay, well then, you know, find...

02:32:18.340 I think they overcorrect.

02:32:19.380 They will vouch that they don't watch porn.

02:32:21.040 They're going to be like...

02:32:21.720 You know what I mean?

02:32:22.140 The more they talk about how disgusted they are by porn, the more likely I am to find

02:32:25.700 out that it turns out that they are watching porn.

02:32:27.560 Like I said, I found that at the micro-anecdotal level of my dating life, and then also at

02:32:31.280 the macro level, just based on statistics.

02:32:33.180 Wait, you object to your partner watching pornography?

02:32:37.520 It wouldn't be ideal, yes.

02:32:39.440 But you...

02:32:40.700 My understanding is you don't do any nudity in your OnlyFans content, but you...

02:32:44.140 Wait, you have an OnlyFans too?

02:32:45.300 Yeah, she does OnlyFans.

02:32:46.000 What?

02:32:46.560 Are you kidding me?

02:32:47.520 I've been...

02:32:48.520 Oh, man.

02:32:50.220 I thought, you strung me along so well, and now you're going to pull the rug out.

02:32:54.780 Hold on.

02:32:55.200 You're the one who's trying to entice these men to look at this stuff, and then you're

02:33:00.560 trying to put all of the blame on them?

02:33:02.120 My OnlyFans, I started a year ago, and talked about...

02:33:04.140 This is why I became disillusioned and pink-pilled, is because I did everything right.

02:33:07.360 I was a virgin all through college.

02:33:08.560 I'm still a virgin.

02:33:09.380 I do all these things.

02:33:10.060 I date these Christian conservatives.

02:33:11.680 They talk about waiting till marriage.

02:33:12.820 They talk about going to church every Sunday.

02:33:14.260 Yeah, yeah.

02:33:14.480 Porn addicts.

02:33:15.260 All of them.

02:33:15.820 Yeah, yeah.

02:33:16.120 No, look, I don't doubt that porn addiction is totally prevalent.

02:33:20.020 And if they're not watching porn, they're following Instagram models, they're going

02:33:23.240 to Hooters.

02:33:23.720 It's mostly conservative men.

02:33:24.940 But what rank...

02:33:25.460 Conservative men that I'd go on dates with, they'd have these posters of nude playgirls

02:33:28.840 and stuff like that, like Playboy bunnies and stuff.

02:33:30.540 Are you dating 65-year-old men?

02:33:32.820 What are you talking about, Playboy?

02:33:33.900 It's more of these conservative Midwestern boys who have that type of paraphernalia.

02:33:38.720 Yeah, I don't know.

02:33:39.240 Hold on, now, are we talking about a pin-up thing in your garage from the 40s, or are

02:33:44.420 we talking about actual porn addiction where people are looking at your content?

02:33:47.780 It doesn't matter.

02:33:48.460 To me, it's all the same.

02:33:49.480 I'm just saying, why is going to Hooters more acceptable?

02:33:52.960 Why can't I throw my chips at them?

02:33:54.140 Wait, one question.

02:33:55.160 But you do make OnlyFans content, so I guess how do you reconcile that with objecting to

02:33:59.940 your partner watching that sort of content, but you also produce that kind of content?

02:34:06.560 I don't necessarily...

02:34:07.700 Go ahead, go ahead.

02:34:08.640 I mean, I just think it's funny, because always on these Red Pill shows, men will get

02:34:12.260 on here and be like, yes, I watch porn, but I wouldn't date a porn star, so what's the

02:34:16.040 issue?

02:34:16.260 And you're saying, I do porn, but I wouldn't date a guy who watches it.

02:34:19.540 Yes, because I'll tell you why.

02:34:20.900 If you actually look at pair bonding, watching porn does affect your neurochemistry and your

02:34:23.980 pair bonding.

02:34:24.660 Me being lusted after does not affect my neurochemistry or my pair bonding.

02:34:27.100 But you're enticing them to do it.

02:34:28.780 Like, I'm maybe the least judgmental person on the right when it comes to this stuff, because

02:34:32.680 all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but you are part of the problem.

02:34:38.640 And the thing that you're inveighing against is something that you are encouraging and profiting

02:34:44.240 from as you encourage it.

02:34:45.260 That's only if you consider lusting to only exist within pornography.

02:34:49.800 I think even if my boyfriend were lusting after, like, 18-year-olds, like a cashier at a grocery

02:34:53.720 store, I would think that's just as wrong as watching pornography.

02:34:56.480 And pornography encourages and inflames lust.

02:34:59.540 Same way, even if I didn't do pornography and I was just an attractive woman, that doesn't

02:35:02.260 mean I'm enticing men by putting on makeup every day.

02:35:04.700 It's up to them to not lust after.

02:35:06.480 Makeup, putting on a little bit of rouge is going to be less exciting to a man than doing

02:35:10.860 pornography.

02:35:11.220 I don't know if you've heard JP talk about it.

02:35:12.680 He says women put on blush to simulate sexual orgasm in their face.

02:35:15.920 Actually, if you want to get into female cosmetic coalitions, there's a very interesting anthropological

02:35:20.420 point to that very thing you've just said, but clearly there are gradations also.

02:35:25.060 A 1940s pin-up poster and hardcore porn on the internet, one is going to excite one more

02:35:31.040 than the other.

02:35:32.660 Yes, and if we're talking gradations, then where I fall in those gradations is probably

02:35:35.640 on the more mild side.

02:35:36.560 I don't do nudity content.

02:35:38.740 You don't do nude content?

02:35:40.000 What is OnlyFans?

02:35:40.820 I thought OnlyFans was porn.

02:35:42.320 I do nude content if anyone wants to check it out.

02:35:44.420 You can post whatever you want.

02:35:46.100 Cardi B just gets on there and yaps and is one of the top ten creators.

02:35:48.600 I mean, regardless, like I said, even if I did do nude content, even if I did necessarily

02:35:53.840 touch myself on camera, that doesn't affect my neurochemistry in terms of pair bonding.

02:35:57.820 But a man watching that...

02:35:58.720 No, but it affects the men.

02:35:59.240 Yes.

02:36:00.000 You're doing something bad to these men and then complaining that the men are bad.

02:36:05.520 Well, that doesn't follow because if I wore a bikini and went to the beach, that doesn't

02:36:08.560 mean that it's my fault.

02:36:09.600 Then if my boyfriend checks out women and just stares at them on the beach, I'm not responsible

02:36:13.420 for his inordinate amount of lust.

02:36:15.420 Yeah, I do.

02:36:16.120 I do think they should.

02:36:16.680 I don't think most people would subscribe to that.

02:36:18.300 I don't think most people would say that if I wear a bikini on the beach, that means

02:36:20.900 I'm a hypocrite.

02:36:21.560 If I say I don't want my boyfriend just ogling women at the beach all the time, I think that

02:36:24.660 would make an improper partner.

02:36:26.420 But you're not really complaining about men who go to the beach and maybe take a little

02:36:29.200 gander down the shore.

02:36:30.960 You are specifically complaining about men who look at pornography.

02:36:34.380 No, I didn't.

02:36:34.900 I think you're right to complain about it.

02:36:34.980 No, I didn't.

02:36:35.540 That's why I brought up VS Angel shows.

02:36:36.920 That's why I brought up Hooters.

02:36:37.800 That's why I brought up the posters.

02:36:38.940 The tour secret.

02:36:39.620 Why would I bring up all these things if the threshold for me was just pornography?

02:36:42.580 That's why I walked it back and said all these other things.

02:36:44.620 You did walk it back and included these other things, which I think are totally legitimate.

02:36:48.120 But there are plenty of things that I think are bad and plenty of sins that I fall into

02:36:54.260 like all the time, right?

02:36:55.120 But I don't complain about them being bad while actively promoting them.

02:37:02.460 There's no cognitive dissonance there?

02:37:04.440 No, I think it's bad if you're in a relationship and you're lying to your partner and saying,

02:37:07.620 I don't watch porn and then you do it and then you consume it.

02:37:11.960 That doesn't mean I think-

02:37:12.840 That's also bad.

02:37:13.280 That doesn't mean I think watching porn is morally bad on its own.

02:37:17.380 If I'm saying I don't want that.

02:37:18.600 That's the same reason I said I don't think necessarily dating women is bad.

02:37:22.300 But if I was married to a man, then yes, I would say him dating other women is bad.

02:37:25.600 That doesn't mean I'm condemning dating in general.

02:37:27.380 So you're coming back to the same thing that you said about abortion, which is I would never

02:37:31.460 do it, but I'm not going to say it's wrong for me.

02:37:32.800 No, I think once you're in a relationship, there are certain activities that you should

02:37:35.640 not do, such as dating other women.

02:37:39.200 What if your partner says that it's okay to do that?

02:37:43.060 What do you mean I would find someone who has moral congruence to me?

02:37:46.040 Right.

02:37:47.040 You're saying if you're in a relationship, you shouldn't date other women.

02:37:49.820 But what if, not you, but some guy were dating some girl and dating you?

02:37:54.380 You really?

02:37:54.800 Oh, no.

02:37:55.560 And you would say, okay, it's fine if you date other women.

02:37:57.560 Then you would say in that relationship, it is fine to sleep with other women or no?

02:38:03.480 Like, are you asking me, do I have objective moral guidelines for what dating should look

02:38:06.780 like?

02:38:07.060 Yeah.

02:38:09.060 Um, hmm.

02:38:12.120 I think, I think if your goal is to have the most optimal marriage, there's lots of things

02:38:16.200 you should not do, such as, I think you should have a low body count if you want to optimize,

02:38:19.620 you know, longevity of marriage.

02:38:20.660 I don't think you should watch porn.

02:38:21.920 At the same time, I don't like that it stops at just those two things.

02:38:24.740 Like, I think those are just the two things we use to shame women and try to force them

02:38:28.180 into modesty.

02:38:28.720 But there's other things, for instance, like you shouldn't even cohabitate with your boyfriend

02:38:32.140 before marriage, even if you're not sleeping together, if you technically want to increase

02:38:34.840 your chances of longevity.

02:38:36.040 Why not?

02:38:36.300 And even once you-

02:38:36.740 Why shouldn't you cohabitate?

02:38:37.820 It's not about shouldn't.

02:38:38.780 I'm saying it more-

02:38:39.560 Why would you discourage cohabitating?

02:38:41.240 It's not about discouraging.

02:38:42.200 That's why I'm saying I'm not moralizing it.

02:38:43.600 Whatever you just said about cohabitating, why are you saying it?

02:38:45.680 If your aim is to have the longest, most healthiest, most happiest marriage possible, statistically

02:38:50.280 speaking, not having previous sexual partners, not living together before marriage, we'll optimize

02:38:54.800 those things.

02:38:55.400 That doesn't mean I'm moralizing it.

02:38:56.560 So why, though, why with cohabitating?

02:38:58.640 Because it's an important point on what we were just talking about.

02:39:00.540 You desensitize, you kind of shore up on wifely duties before actually getting wifes.

02:39:04.040 It gives the guy this incentive where he doesn't have to, you know, buy the cow because he's

02:39:07.340 getting the milk for free, all that bullshit.

02:39:09.480 But that actually pans out statistically.

02:39:12.200 But my point is, we talk-

02:39:13.160 And because it's enticing, right?

02:39:15.260 Because it's tempting.

02:39:15.960 You're not going to cohabitate and not sleep together.

02:39:17.900 That's not true.

02:39:18.740 You think you could cohabitate and not sleep together?

02:39:20.820 I've done it, yeah.

02:39:22.100 Really?

02:39:22.620 Yeah.

02:39:23.000 Wow.

02:39:23.240 Was the man a homosexual?

02:39:26.560 Are you saying he's going to transgress my barriers if I'm like, don't fuck me?

02:39:29.640 No, I think he would find it.

02:39:31.000 I think he would move out before he would deal with that.

02:39:33.440 Regardless, I'm just saying there are certain things that will optimize your marriage.

02:39:36.700 For instance, even once you're married, if you guys don't sleep in the same bed, that

02:39:39.560 will actually lead to a stronger marriage.

02:39:41.920 That doesn't mean I necessarily prescribe it.

02:39:43.380 It just depends.

02:39:44.220 What are these variables that you want to add into your relationship to strengthen it?

02:39:47.440 So it's not necessarily that I would say a guy shouldn't necessarily watch porn if his

02:39:51.140 girlfriend's okay with it.

02:39:52.060 Same way.

02:39:52.420 Again, technically, I wouldn't prescribe don't sleep in the same bed together, even though

02:39:55.620 that could also disaffect your marriage.

02:39:57.360 You've come to so many, so many of the right moral conclusions, but you just don't want

02:40:02.120 to take credit for them.

02:40:03.540 You don't want to say that they're true.

02:40:05.100 You just want to say that you just accidentally you've come to the right conclusions.

02:40:08.820 You probably prescribe that people don't have premarital sex, right?

02:40:12.300 Yeah, I would strongly discourage it.

02:40:13.120 Were you a virgin until marriage?

02:40:14.200 No, listen, I was an atheist for 10 years.

02:40:15.960 I did a lot of naughty things.

02:40:17.980 Okay, and you would probably prescribe that people don't watch pornography in marriage?

02:40:21.060 Yes.

02:40:21.540 And the reason being that that would disaffect your chances of marital success and happiness?

02:40:25.460 No, I don't.

02:40:26.540 As we were talking about earlier on ethics, I don't view ethics from the perspective of

02:40:29.820 consequences.

02:40:30.820 But you also said what's true is typically what's good, so they're kind of hand in hand.

02:40:35.140 Right, but I don't consider...

02:40:38.140 Whatever means in light of ends.

02:40:41.180 I don't think that good ends would justify immoral means.

02:40:44.160 What I'm saying is that actions are good or bad depending on the actions, and more importantly

02:40:48.740 actually on the character of virtue of the person who is acting in them.

02:40:53.740 So the way that I would ascertain what's good or bad is according to virtue, not according

02:40:59.020 to some weird calculation of like statistics, say I'm going to be married longer or whatever.

02:41:02.660 Final thought from the both of you on this.

02:41:04.700 Go ahead, Thora.

02:41:05.060 I was just going to say, well, statistically speaking, couples are happier.

02:41:08.140 They're together when they don't sleep in the same bed.

02:41:09.700 Would you not prescribe that then?

02:41:10.760 Because there's no virtue tied to it.

02:41:12.360 That's more of a consequence.

02:41:12.580 No, there's a lot of virtue tied to modesty and restraint and waiting until marriage.

02:41:17.340 No, no, no.

02:41:17.600 That's not what I meant.

02:41:18.300 Even once you're married, you'll have a more successful marriage, statistically speaking,

02:41:22.120 if you don't sleep in the same bed as your partner.

02:41:23.660 No, it's very aristocratic.

02:41:24.840 I'm too middle class to do that.

02:41:26.340 But yeah, the aristocratic classes sleep in different beds.

02:41:29.480 I guess my point was that people pick and choose what level of pair bonding they want to create

02:41:32.480 with their partner, whether it's not watching pornography, having premarital sex, and then not sleeping

02:41:36.000 in the same bed.

02:41:36.540 I'm skeptical that you actually have more marital satisfaction if you don't sleep in the same bed.

02:41:40.580 But the British royals have been doing it for a long time.

02:41:42.380 And they all cheat on each other, I guess.

02:41:43.820 Right.

02:41:44.100 I guess I was trying to outline issues that there's a lot of different things.

02:41:46.620 I am going to have to move on.

02:41:47.920 We have Seaberg here.

02:41:48.960 No wage gap.

02:41:49.760 It's an earnings gap.

02:41:51.340 The 77 cents to the dollar stat is a labor stat that took total earnings by each sex,

02:41:57.460 divided by total workers.

02:41:59.180 Feminism tends to look only until proof of victimhood is found.

02:42:03.060 Hey, Seaberg.

02:42:03.480 Thank you, man.

02:42:03.860 I appreciate it.

02:42:04.560 Actually, and to come back to my point I was actually trying to make earlier, asking all

02:42:09.060 of you if you would prefer a man to pay on the first date, couldn't it be the case?

02:42:13.280 I mean, even if we remove the fact that, for example, men tend to work more hours, they're

02:42:17.480 more likely to relocate for work, they're more likely to work hazardous jobs, and there's

02:42:23.040 a whole bunch of other variables, given the answers that you provided to my question about

02:42:28.160 if you would prefer a man to pay for the first date, let's assume that somewhere between

02:42:32.520 30 to 50 percent of women also hold that, it might be more, couldn't it be fair to say

02:42:37.600 that just on that sole thing, that sole, the sole thing that women prefer men to be

02:42:44.420 providers or prefer men to pay on that first date, wouldn't that be enough of a mating

02:42:49.760 pressure, of a mating force to be a stronger motivating factor for men to occupy higher

02:42:56.060 positions of, or positions of higher status, positions that pay more money, as compared,

02:43:02.520 whereas women don't have that corresponding mating pressure, men are really not having

02:43:07.300 a, putting a pressure on women to pay for first dates, for example.

02:43:11.820 I mean, what is it?

02:43:12.420 That's certainly possible.

02:43:13.660 The problem that I think most feminists would point out is that when it does come to the

02:43:18.020 women who are putting that self-pressure, whatever, performing highly, trying to get like

02:43:23.560 that next pay raise promotion, when it comes to studies that do like double blind, who

02:43:29.840 try to like account for other factors, they're still not being picked because of gender bias.

02:43:34.400 That's a problem.

02:43:35.460 It's not necessarily that men want to get these higher positions of power.

02:43:38.740 That's, to me, that's not a problem.

02:43:40.020 What's a problem is that if we start making all things equal, women are still being punished

02:43:43.980 for it, then that's weird to me.

02:43:45.480 It's very difficult to make all things equal.

02:43:47.040 So even, you know, even when you drill down, and I'll just take those statistics for what

02:43:53.200 they're worth, still, if you have a society that gives an advantage to women as a matter

02:44:00.660 of, say, affirmative action or some DEI policy or, you know, and that begins very early on.

02:44:05.660 It begins in high school and then it goes on to college and then maybe you get into, maybe

02:44:08.960 you get a little bonus on your SAT and then maybe you get into the medical school because

02:44:11.860 we want more women.

02:44:12.860 They're underrepresented in the field.

02:44:13.980 And then maybe the firm looks at you or the medical office and says, well, I don't know

02:44:18.460 that this woman, she's got, she went, she graduated college, but she didn't graduate as good a

02:44:22.700 college as this man.

02:44:23.520 Or she did graduate the same college as the man, but I don't know that she really deserved

02:44:27.240 it.

02:44:27.540 You know, that, I'm not saying that's just exactly, but I think they are at least justified

02:44:33.200 in that prejudice because we got a whole system right now that says that if you're a woman,

02:44:37.460 you get bonus points.

02:44:38.540 And this is the, I mean, Clarence Thomas has written about this extensively.

02:44:41.760 He says, I had a trouble getting a job after graduating Yale Law School.

02:44:45.160 Yale Law School is the best school in the country.

02:44:46.780 I'm Clarence Thomas.

02:44:47.520 I'm like one of the greatest judges in American history.

02:44:51.600 But he couldn't do it because he was black and they assumed he was an affirmative action

02:44:54.600 case.

02:44:55.780 Yeah.

02:44:55.960 Last, sorry, just to move on.

02:44:57.680 We only have a few more minutes here, five, 10 more minutes, then we're going to wrap

02:45:00.140 up.

02:45:00.720 This came up earlier in the conversation.

02:45:02.500 I believe I said we'd get back to it.

02:45:05.260 So Pixie, I know you've kind of had some thoughts on this on your previous appearances.

02:45:08.980 You know, when it comes to feminism, obviously that's typically advocacy for equality, advocacy

02:45:15.080 for women.

02:45:16.420 I think it's important when we're talking about that to, again, define our terms.

02:45:21.040 So as a nod to the Daily Wire and Matt Walsh, what is a woman?

02:45:27.860 You're going to hate me for this one, Michael.

02:45:29.640 Lay it on.

02:45:30.540 Before I have Michael respond to you, I want all of you to respond while we have Pixie go,

02:45:35.060 then Farah, then Jasmine.

02:45:36.620 Go ahead.

02:45:36.820 Um, a woman is a person who acts and is perceived as a societal perception of a woman.

02:45:43.500 That's at least half of it.

02:45:46.320 Farah?

02:45:47.760 Um, I'd like to do more research on this topic before publicizing an opinion.

02:45:52.440 Vito.

02:45:53.460 Are you joking?

02:45:54.380 That's really your answer?

02:45:55.480 That is my answer as of now.

02:45:57.900 Hey.

02:45:58.280 Come on, Farah.

02:45:59.300 So even if you couldn't, even if you're not going to reason about it, let's just talk

02:46:02.320 from your own personal prejudices and stuff.

02:46:04.380 What do you, come on, just between us gals.

02:46:05.880 Just between us.

02:46:06.740 Just between us gals.

02:46:08.620 We can talk after the show.

02:46:10.340 I like to thoroughly think out my opinions.

02:46:12.800 Even Shia LaBeouf wants you to.

02:46:15.080 I like to thoroughly think out my opinions before publicizing them and platforming them.

02:46:18.760 Come on.

02:46:19.100 You don't have a hunch?

02:46:19.960 I bet you have a hunch of what a woman is.

02:46:21.320 I didn't say I don't have a hunch, but that doesn't mean I want to platform my hunches.

02:46:23.560 Okay.

02:46:24.180 It's too dangerous to venture an answer these days.

02:46:27.100 Okay.

02:46:27.220 Give a hunch.

02:46:28.080 Yeah.

02:46:28.240 I would take kind of Pixie's view.

02:46:29.880 I think women can be, I don't think trans women and biological women are the same, but

02:46:33.800 I don't think trans women are men either.

02:46:35.660 Like they're, you know, you can have an umbrella term for women and have both trans women and

02:46:39.400 biological women under it without realizing, without also saying that they're exactly the

02:46:43.480 same and they have all the same issues and everything's the same.

02:46:45.480 If they're neither men nor women, what are they?

02:46:47.900 They are women.

02:46:48.460 I said, but they're, I would say they're a part of the umbrella of women.

02:46:51.920 Okay.

02:46:52.280 Not a part of the umbrella of men.

02:46:53.600 Yeah, they are because they're biological men.

02:46:55.540 So they're both.

02:46:56.360 You can be a trans man or a biological man, or you can be a trans woman and a biological

02:47:00.100 woman.

02:47:00.520 So depending on how you're looking at it, if you're looking at biology, yeah, they're

02:47:04.120 not the same.

02:47:04.900 Can you though?

02:47:05.560 Can your identity be different?

02:47:07.160 You know, your metaphysical identity be different from your physical identity?

02:47:09.120 Your biological identity can definitely be different than your social identity.

02:47:12.840 How?

02:47:13.920 Easy.

02:47:14.200 Um, when, this goes back to the whole chromosomes argument, but like you didn't check any of

02:47:20.780 our chromosomes or biology before calling us a woman, right?

02:47:23.500 Which kind of, I think there are enough indicators, enough indicators, but you base those indicators

02:47:28.500 on like appearance.

02:47:30.240 So obviously our societal, you know, you look like women, you walk like women, you smell

02:47:35.180 like women.

02:47:35.940 I think you're women.

02:47:36.500 That's her point is the performance and you're basing off of secondary sex characteristics

02:47:39.920 is what you're basing them on and people can change their secondary sex characteristics.

02:47:42.700 Yeah, your bodies is what I'm basing it on.

02:47:44.560 Yeah, which you can change that.

02:47:45.580 But you, I'm not sure that you can actually, because I think what's here at the basis of

02:47:50.520 it is a Gnostic idea that you're, you can separate your soul and your body.

02:47:55.260 And I know we don't like to use the word soul anymore, so we'll say your identity man

02:47:58.840 or whatever, but that you can separate that from your body.

02:48:00.780 And I just don't think you can.

02:48:01.860 I think a woman is the sort of person who isn't a man.

02:48:04.800 I think that's the basic definition of a woman.

02:48:07.000 What's a man then?

02:48:08.040 A man is the sort of person who isn't a woman.

02:48:09.860 What, how did you know we were women?

02:48:11.460 Because you look like women.

02:48:13.120 Okay.

02:48:13.540 And you sound like women.

02:48:14.520 And when I talk to you, you give the impression that you're women.

02:48:17.940 So if a really good passing trans woman is here and you were mistaken?

02:48:21.520 Then I would be mistaken, but he would not be a woman.

02:48:24.000 No, but my point is that what you're looking at is secondary sex characteristics.

02:48:28.540 And those are things that people can change.

02:48:30.080 Those are the signs that point to the reality of their sex.

02:48:32.040 So to pretend that, oh, this is all men and women and like.

02:48:33.540 But I'm not saying the signs are synonymous with their sex.

02:48:35.980 I'm saying the signs are signs and the signs symbolize something.

02:48:40.000 But there is something to say about somebody that like, like you said, walks, talks, looks

02:48:44.000 like a woman.

02:48:44.500 And to say that this is now a hundred percent a man, a hundred.

02:48:47.320 No, there's, you have to say.

02:48:48.960 No, he would be, he would be performing as a woman and he might even fool me depending

02:48:53.140 on how much surgery he's had.

02:48:54.380 So he would socially be a woman.

02:48:55.840 He, he would be, he would try to do that.

02:48:58.240 But I don't think society should recognize those tricks.

02:49:00.760 He would succeed to the point where you don't even realize it.

02:49:04.360 Usually you do realize is the thing.

02:49:06.100 I like, I know they convinced themselves that they really, yeah, but they, you know, I've

02:49:09.740 met plenty of transsexuals because they protest my speeches and they, uh, usually you can tell

02:49:14.800 because again, it gets to what we're talking about at the very top of this debate, which

02:49:19.060 was the question of human nature, right?

02:49:23.060 I think me and old uncle Aristotle believe that you're a, you're a body and a soul together.

02:49:28.740 I'm not just my soul trapped in a useless body.

02:49:31.620 I'm not just my body without a soul or totally separated from my soul.

02:49:35.120 I think I'm a soul and a, and a, and a body together.

02:49:37.820 So my body gives me much of my sex to use the technical term.

02:49:43.580 It's an inseparable accident of the individual.

02:49:46.040 Uh, and I think that pertains to my whole person cause you can't separate those two for

02:49:49.760 the whole of my life.

02:49:51.200 Pixie can, can men get pregnant?

02:49:53.640 Can men get pregnant?

02:49:54.680 Not biological men.

02:49:56.400 Okay.

02:49:57.320 Yeah.

02:49:57.620 Trans men can.

02:49:59.180 Okay.

02:50:00.500 Um, yeah.

02:50:01.180 Can we really divide men up like that?

02:50:03.120 Like I'm a biological man, but I'm a spiritual woman and I'm a.

02:50:07.980 I mean, we do, um, what is it?

02:50:09.540 We do classifications, um, within gender all the time.

02:50:12.700 Black woman, white woman, for example.

02:50:14.660 That'd be racial.

02:50:15.600 Yeah.

02:50:15.880 No, but that's still within the scope of women.

02:50:19.000 You're still saying, oh, there's, there's women who are black.

02:50:21.520 There's women who are not black.

02:50:22.880 There are women who have had essay experiences.

02:50:25.060 There's women who haven't had experiences.

02:50:26.700 Race is real though.

02:50:28.320 It's actually, uh, more difficult to pin down than sexual difference, but it's real.

02:50:33.280 Yeah.

02:50:33.400 There are different races.

02:50:34.180 Sure.

02:50:34.700 Yeah.

02:50:34.840 So you can be a black people and white people.

02:50:36.320 They're different races and men and women are different sexes.

02:50:38.540 Last thing on, sorry, one can't become the other, except in the case of Michael Jackson,

02:50:42.800 who he got the closest, but he was still, I think he was still a black guy.

02:50:45.640 Wasn't that Villa Lago?

02:50:47.100 That, that's what he said.

02:50:48.600 Well, that's, that's what he said.

02:50:49.660 I don't know if I believe Michael Jackson.

02:50:51.120 Cause he was, uh, actually you, um, stump, I don't want to say stumbled cause that's condescending,

02:50:55.440 but whatever.

02:50:55.840 You stumbled onto something quite interesting.

02:50:57.600 I'm glad I did.

02:50:58.300 Because the whole idea is that when it comes like the notion of race, um, the reason why

02:51:03.840 Michael Jackson is, was technically never white.

02:51:06.200 He was always black is because we treat race as like a historical, um, a historical question.

02:51:11.600 Basically what we're asking when we ask somebody, what's your race is basically, what is your

02:51:15.040 ancestry?

02:51:15.600 Like what got you here to be here now versus sex where, or gender specifically where we

02:51:20.920 treat it more of a societal conception.

02:51:22.420 Like what are you performing as?

02:51:24.100 Yeah.

02:51:24.520 I don't treat it that way at all.

02:51:26.000 And I think that sexual, I mean, I think racial difference is real.

02:51:28.560 The reason Michael Jackson's black is because he did thriller, you know, I don't think I,

02:51:32.580 I, I, you can't really change your race.

02:51:34.300 Rachel Doll has all tried and she ruined her life because of it.

02:51:37.060 Uh, but if you could, I mean, I'm kind of swarthy, right?

02:51:39.640 You might think I'm like Arabic or Mexican or something, even though I'm Italian and waspy,

02:51:43.360 I don't know.

02:51:44.020 Waspy, which you see in the Mayflower Cigar actually.

02:51:46.260 Uh, but, uh, I certainly couldn't change my sex because the, the difference between a black

02:51:50.980 guy and a white guy, I'm not saying there are not differences that there are physical

02:51:53.840 differences.

02:51:54.480 There are cultural differences.

02:51:55.760 Sure.

02:51:56.000 It may be, but those differences are nothing compared to the difference between a man and

02:52:00.840 a woman.

02:52:01.680 Uh, okay.

02:52:03.040 The point is, I think what we're trying to get at here is that when it comes to like

02:52:06.300 our conception of sex versus gender, um, we base our conception of gender on how somebody

02:52:10.740 looks.

02:52:10.980 Dustin Washburn donated $200.

02:52:13.080 More than anything else.

02:52:13.880 Michael, with your talk and logic about soul and body, do you believe it's possible for the

02:52:18.860 wrong soul to be placed in the wrong body?

02:52:21.100 No, because I think following old uncle St. Thomas Aquinas that the, the sex derives mostly from

02:52:27.860 the body.

02:52:28.320 So it's, it would be incoherent to say, uh, that the, the soul is another sex because if

02:52:33.900 the soul were a different sex, the soul being the substantial form of the body, it would mean

02:52:37.360 that men and women are different species and men and women have a lot of differences, but

02:52:40.520 we're not.

02:52:40.880 Why did God create gender dysphoria?

02:52:43.160 Dustin, thank you.

02:52:44.200 Last thing on this.

02:52:45.460 Um, and I think Pixie, you've had on your previous appearances, you've maybe had thoughts on this

02:52:49.260 and I think feminists tend to differ on this last topic that we're going to hit on, uh,

02:52:53.760 when it comes to the trans discussion sports.

02:52:56.900 Um, do you think that there should be separation?

02:53:01.740 What are your thoughts on, uh, for example, trans women, uh, trans women participating in women's

02:53:08.300 sports?

02:53:08.660 Yeah.

02:53:09.520 So I think, um, what I've currently seen of the data and studies is that even after taking

02:53:15.540 hormones and such, and there might still be advantages in certain ways.

02:53:19.540 So to me it would be like, it's a theoretical question.

02:53:22.200 Like I would have to have more data, but basically if it seems that some of like these biological

02:53:26.900 advantages are like too high or it cannot be, um, mitigated enough through the use of hormones

02:53:32.800 and such, then yeah, it would be too much of an unfair advantage versus, um, if the data

02:53:38.540 shows otherwise.

02:53:39.220 And it's like, no, actually it is like mitigated well enough.

02:53:41.880 So that's my general stance on it.

02:53:43.920 Isn't it though?

02:53:44.320 Aren't we just all slaves to like the data, you know, if the study shows.

02:53:49.000 I love the data.

02:53:50.020 Yeah, maybe.

02:53:50.620 But the data are so manipulated.

02:53:52.180 I mean, social scientific data, they're in a major replication crisis.

02:53:55.100 Well, if it wasn't, the scientific method is our best way to get to the truth.

02:53:58.480 Is it?

02:53:58.920 I'm not sure about that.

02:53:59.760 I would say so.

02:54:00.560 So I think it's the best we have.

02:54:01.680 Otherwise we just have our anecdotes and our feelings.

02:54:03.540 No, but what, what, look, I'm, I'm all for empirical scientific analyses of the things

02:54:07.900 that, that it can measure, but, but those are all physical things.

02:54:10.660 And what we're talking about here is deeper than a physical thing, right?

02:54:13.040 We're talking, because we're, we're not mere flesh.

02:54:15.240 I don't think, I don't think we think we're mere flesh.

02:54:17.120 Well, we, this is where we disagree because we think that, yes.

02:54:19.220 You think you're just flesh?

02:54:20.400 No, no, no.

02:54:20.780 We disagree on whether like, you're like, oh, like the issue here isn't the data.

02:54:24.760 The data on whether this would be unfair to women is what I care about.

02:54:27.840 Because if it wasn't, then I would say, yeah, they can do it.

02:54:30.500 The data on whether this is unfair to women are not going to come from some like dork

02:54:35.220 economist that those data are going to come from the reality of the different, it's going

02:54:39.020 to come from natural scientists.

02:54:40.140 Certainly it's going to come from, uh, people who have an understanding of what human nature

02:54:44.440 is and what justice is.

02:54:45.540 No, I don't think this is a human nature debate.

02:54:47.340 I think this is about, does your muscle mass give you an advantage?

02:54:50.020 And if you take hormones, it seems to not, like you said, reverse all of the advantages

02:54:54.120 that you have.

02:54:54.680 How does a scientific study conclude something about fairness or justice?

02:54:59.720 How do you measure justice under a microscope?

02:55:01.800 No, it doesn't, it doesn't jump to that conclusion, but we use their conclusions to then make our

02:55:05.160 opinions.

02:55:05.640 Oh, you're saying you're, so you would look at a scientific survey and say, wow, that

02:55:09.380 big husky dude who ran, who swam against the women, turns out he was a lot faster than

02:55:13.360 all those little women.

02:55:14.120 And therefore I conclude that, uh, men competing against women in a women's sport is unjust.

02:55:19.300 No, what you should do is you should be like, Hey, okay.

02:55:21.620 How do we realize if like, okay, I don't know, should trans women compete with real

02:55:25.780 women?

02:55:26.160 I don't know.

02:55:26.680 Do they have an unfair advantage by doing so?

02:55:28.040 I love that you slipped there and you said real women.

02:55:29.960 Well, biological women.

02:55:31.360 Okay.

02:55:31.620 I love it.

02:55:32.080 Biological women.

02:55:32.880 You just accidentally said what we all know to be true.

02:55:36.240 Yeah.

02:55:36.500 I would agree with that.

02:55:37.380 Yeah.

02:55:37.740 Biological women, you could argue are real women, but that doesn't mean trans women are

02:55:41.620 not.

02:55:41.940 Which, which implies that the trans women are not really under the category.

02:55:45.540 They're not under the category of biological women.

02:55:47.480 And so what I want to.

02:55:48.320 No, you just said they're not under the category of real women.

02:55:49.740 Okay.

02:55:50.220 Well, you can harp on that.

02:55:51.300 My point here is that.

02:55:52.100 No, I think it's, I'm not, I'm not trying to get you.

02:55:53.420 I'm just trying to point out you, you have admitted.

02:55:55.080 The point I'm trying to make is if I'm trying to figure out the answer to this question and

02:55:58.460 the question for me is not what is natural or what is Catholicism say.

02:56:02.180 It's, is this unfair to have trans women compete with real women?

02:56:05.720 Well, I want to know.

02:56:06.420 And the way to know that is to look at the science, not to just look at somebody.

02:56:09.680 How do you know what's fair and what's not fair?

02:56:11.420 In sports to have an unfair advantage and that you can, you'd have to compare, like, right?

02:56:18.280 Like you would have to see, okay, if you, this is why they banned certain drugs.

02:56:21.060 I don't know anything about sports.

02:56:21.940 I'm assuming all this.

02:56:22.760 I'm just saying, how do you know what fairness is?

02:56:24.960 We all have, I would say that the only way you really know how fairness is, is that we

02:56:28.740 all have kind of like a, you know, we have a feeling about it.

02:56:33.380 That's all I can say.

02:56:33.980 Is it a feeling or is it a, is it a reasonable conscience?

02:56:36.260 I didn't, you can compare averages.

02:56:38.720 You can compare averages, yeah.

02:56:39.860 But also the hunch, the, the, even the idea that we all want things to be fair is like

02:56:44.940 an evolutionary, in my opinion, just thing that we all kind of seem to have because

02:56:48.640 it was evolutionary and advantageous.

02:56:50.500 Michael Phelps is a faster swimmer than some, Michael Phelps is a faster swimmer than some

02:56:52.060 guy we've never heard of.

02:56:53.180 He, he, does he have an unfair advantage over the guy we never heard of?

02:56:56.620 They have different average swimming times.

02:56:59.180 Is the, is the average swimming time going to imply something about fairness and justice?

02:57:02.200 No, you need something else to, to come to a conclusion about justice and fairness.

02:57:06.280 And that's not going to be scientific.

02:57:07.640 Well, no, we're not saying, we, yeah, I agree, philosophical.

02:57:10.160 Quick, quick, quick, last, last points.

02:57:11.760 Go ahead, Pixie.

02:57:12.480 I was going to say, I do think that comparing averages does give us greater insight of what's

02:57:16.680 like fairness or not.

02:57:17.620 So for example, Michael Phelps competing with other Olympic swimmers is much more fair than

02:57:23.540 Michael Phelps competing against like a completely average swimmer.

02:57:27.340 So obviously there's something to be said about people within like the same leagues or performing

02:57:31.480 around the same level.

02:57:32.580 And that's why we have like golden versus bronze versus like silver categories.

02:57:37.000 Well, no, that would just be awards for the people.

02:57:38.700 Yeah, no, but I'm saying like, like, sorry, I should have said division one, division two,

02:57:41.740 division three.

02:57:42.340 So you're saying people who are of the same type, it would be fair for the people of the

02:57:46.000 same type to compete against each other.

02:57:47.840 Yes.

02:57:48.000 But we've already established that trans women and real women are not of the same type,

02:57:52.540 so they shouldn't compete against each other.

02:57:53.820 Well, that's why we're, forget about the averages.

02:57:54.880 That's why we're also saying that when it comes to like hormones or certain supplements,

02:57:57.900 um, if the divide gets bridged enough, then it might open to new discussion or different

02:58:03.240 discussion.

02:58:03.940 So that's why we're saying it's data-based.

02:58:04.640 So if you pump yourself full of enough hormones, then the trans woman who is not a real woman

02:58:08.200 could become a real woman?

02:58:09.440 It's not about being a real woman, because as we said before, these are not just, these

02:58:13.800 are not just matters of the flesh, as you stated before.

02:58:16.560 Um, a lot of this is about societal perception of what a woman is.

02:58:19.820 And that goes back to like certain actions and certain looks.

02:58:22.880 So in our day-to-day life, that's what we rely, we rely the concept of women on, actions

02:58:27.740 and looks.

02:58:28.340 I, I, but yeah, but I, I just, I guess I wouldn't trust society more than I would trust objective

02:58:33.440 truth.

02:58:34.040 You know, I, I think that, uh, some, 50 million Frenchmen can be wrong.

02:58:37.920 I think that actually the majority of people can sometimes get wrong.

02:58:40.440 How do you think, what's the best way to arrive at objective truth?

02:58:43.380 I wish we could go there.

02:58:45.520 Unfortunately, we are, we are running, what's that?

02:58:48.160 We'd have five more hours.

02:58:49.060 Um, we do have to, uh, wrap up here pretty soon.

02:58:53.280 I do want to give you guys, if you want, um, make a brief final thought or closing statement.

02:58:58.820 And, uh, before you guys do that though, do know that we are in about an hour.

02:59:03.120 We will be live again, uh, with our dating talk at about 5 PM Pacific.

02:59:07.220 But if you guys want, I'd like to open it up to, uh, you guys to make some closing statements

02:59:11.800 if you'd like.

02:59:12.360 So ladies first, ladies first.

02:59:14.040 I guess I'll just say what I was going to say.

02:59:15.580 Yeah.

02:59:15.760 What are, our principles on fairness are, it is a philosophical question, but you could

02:59:20.680 say, okay, the principle here is we want to make sure that nobody has a really big unfair

02:59:24.320 advantage to another person.

02:59:25.400 And then you use science and data because that is better than anecdotal evidence.

02:59:28.880 We have levels of evidence that are stronger and weaker.

02:59:31.480 To inform the philosophical calculation.

02:59:33.040 To inform, that's my point.

02:59:34.380 Yeah.

02:59:34.460 Okay.

02:59:34.900 That would be, and thank you for coming.

02:59:36.500 You're, you're great.

02:59:37.700 And it was really fun.

02:59:38.600 Get out of here.

02:59:38.920 Yeah.

02:59:39.300 And she was great too.

02:59:40.200 I think she won.

02:59:43.200 Okay.

02:59:43.640 I guess my general closing statements are thoughts.

02:59:45.720 I'm going to take it out with a trans debate right now.

02:59:48.580 Um, I do wish that we went more a little bit about like the nature versus nature of women

02:59:52.500 and men.

02:59:53.200 Um, I do think that there is something to be said that there has had to be like consistent

02:59:56.860 laws in place, um, that prevent women from like getting a bank account, um, from being able

03:00:00.980 to pursue a higher care, like higher education, um, being able to get certain jobs.

03:00:05.440 I think that speaks to this idea that there is more of a sociological component than a biological

03:00:09.500 component of why women haven't necessarily like been as interested in finances or other

03:00:14.720 fields as such.

03:00:16.280 Um, so that's where I stand when it comes to like the nature versus nurture stuff of things.

03:00:20.860 I think things sometimes are greatly exaggerated when it comes to women's natural proclivities

03:00:24.340 and not.

03:00:25.600 Thanks for coming.

03:00:26.380 Um, before the show, you said it's morally depraved to be a munch.

03:00:31.120 Do you stand by that statement?

03:00:32.340 Oh yeah.

03:00:32.680 We were discussing the previous.

03:00:34.520 I learned a lot of jargon.

03:00:36.740 I learned a three Oh fours.

03:00:38.700 Right.

03:00:39.160 I learned a munch.

03:00:41.600 I learned, there were a few.

03:00:43.100 Do you remember the other ones I learned?

03:00:44.440 Luckily I've forgotten.

03:00:46.280 I just, but yeah, you raised, you raised the question of, you know, is, is it confused

03:00:50.900 me?

03:00:51.160 Cause you have no problem simulating fellatio right next to you.

03:00:53.760 Okay, all I would say is a simulation is very different from the actual act.

03:01:01.140 And I think that uncle, I certainly condemn this act.

03:01:04.720 Yes.

03:01:04.900 This is deeply depraved.

03:01:05.960 It's a cigar.

03:01:06.340 Her existence.

03:01:07.320 No, no, no, not her existence.

03:01:08.900 Fellatio.

03:01:09.700 Oh, yeah.

03:01:10.400 I think that sex ought to be turned to proper ends, which are open to life.

03:01:13.340 Wait, what?

03:01:13.940 Yeah.

03:01:14.800 It's a cigar.

03:01:15.940 Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

03:01:17.660 That's why I was asking about fellatio.

03:01:18.560 But sometimes it's not.

03:01:19.640 Yeah.

03:01:19.800 I think sex should be turned to proper ends.

03:01:22.560 That's your closing, is that?

03:01:24.160 Yeah.

03:01:24.360 She's asking about my preference.

03:01:26.220 You said we get into it.

03:01:26.980 We didn't do it.

03:01:27.580 So I was curious.

03:01:28.360 That's my closing statement.

03:01:29.560 Yeah.

03:01:29.900 That's.

03:01:30.860 Okay.

03:01:31.540 Now with that image in my head, I guess my closing statement would be the point that

03:01:37.180 you brought up.

03:01:38.160 That, you know, we haven't talked about the nature versus nurture and why women don't

03:01:41.740 go into finance as much and why they don't do this and why they don't do that.

03:01:44.460 And women were barred by law and custom from having certain financial responsibilities and

03:01:48.740 from voting even.

03:01:49.460 We even talk about voting.

03:01:50.620 And I guess my question with all of that is, if in some unforeseen future, women really

03:01:55.940 all want to take over Wall Street.

03:01:57.900 And, you know, there are some women on Wall Street, but generally not that many.

03:02:00.660 And if they really want to do that, okay, all right, I guess.

03:02:04.120 I just, I don't see any particular good in that.

03:02:07.500 Even if I don't see bad necessarily.

03:02:10.000 And I'm not saying I don't.

03:02:10.900 But I don't see any particular good.

03:02:13.000 Why do I care?

03:02:13.620 Why do I want some woman to work on Wall Street?

03:02:15.320 Why do I care?

03:02:16.020 Why do, even, you know, one brings up the vote.

03:02:19.360 I like voting, I guess.

03:02:21.200 But it's just, I vote because I want, as an instrument to have good government.

03:02:25.760 If you told me right now, Michael, the millennials lose their right to vote and you're going to

03:02:30.100 get, millennials are big libs anyway, and you're going to get more conservatives, I'd

03:02:33.060 say, okay, here's my right to vote.

03:02:34.120 I don't really care.

03:02:34.940 I mean, I just think there are all sorts of forms of good government and we want government

03:02:38.060 to do good and avoid evil.

03:02:38.940 So, you know, before feminism, we had a far greater focus on the family and family cohesion

03:02:46.060 and a view of the sexes that was complementary and not merely commercial and not, you know,

03:02:50.760 we talked about the excesses of capitalism.

03:02:53.000 I'm with you, girl.

03:02:53.800 I totally agree.

03:02:54.600 You've got to circumscribe capitalism.

03:02:56.440 And we had views of the sexes that were not at each other's loggerheads, you know, these

03:03:01.720 stupid men who are just, you know, vicious and who aren't up to your standards.

03:03:05.760 Yeah, they probably aren't up to your standards.

03:03:07.080 I agree.

03:03:07.400 And we have to grow and help edify one another and ideally, you know, help each other get

03:03:11.280 to heaven, but at least have good lives here and have kids.

03:03:13.540 And, you know, I totally agree with all of that.

03:03:16.780 But that requires not just thinking that feminism's gone too far.

03:03:21.040 That requires recognizing that feminism, like, gets it wrong at the very beginning.

03:03:25.900 Like, the first lady who ever was a feminist got it wrong.

03:03:29.100 And so I think that, you know, we need to, if you want to run away from natural roles, be

03:03:37.120 my guest.

03:03:37.660 I don't really care.

03:03:38.380 Do what you want to do.

03:03:39.440 But we need to recognize that women ought to be allowed, and our economy doesn't currently

03:03:44.320 allow it, to pursue those natural roles.

03:03:46.660 And for that, maybe that for a woman means she's going to raise kids and she's going to

03:03:50.700 cook.

03:03:50.920 And maybe she will be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

03:03:53.240 And for men, maybe that means they're going to go out and they're going to work in an

03:03:56.580 office and they're going to come home on a nice Saturday night and they're going to

03:03:59.500 smoke a Mayflower cigar by going to mayflowercigars.com and ordering them.

03:04:04.000 I think they're back in stock, but you have to be 21 years old or older to order.

03:04:07.860 And some exclusions may apply.

03:04:10.800 All right.

03:04:11.240 Okay, there you go.

03:04:16.120 Can we plug our only fans if you plug those cigars?

03:04:19.260 Jasmine Jafar, dot me.

03:04:20.100 What's that?

03:04:20.540 Can we plug our OFs if you plugged his company?

03:04:23.980 Oh, was that a plug?

03:04:25.040 I was just, I was waxing philosophic.

03:04:27.340 We actually only allow tobacco-related plugs, unfortunately.

03:04:30.920 So, I mean, if you guys have Cigarellos or cigarette brand you'd like to plug, then I

03:04:37.120 think, you know, a six million.

03:04:38.020 Oh, there you have it.

03:04:38.860 There it is, Mayflower.

03:04:39.840 Whoa, hey, look at that.

03:04:40.640 Oh, nice.

03:04:41.440 Should we pull up my only fans up?

03:04:42.840 Yeah, well, I'm not sure about that one.

03:04:45.040 But, all right, guys, thank you for tuning in, everybody.

03:04:49.220 Appreciate it.

03:04:49.760 Thank you to the wonderful panel here.

03:04:51.520 Appreciate you guys coming.

03:04:52.640 As previously mentioned, we will be live in about 45 minutes with our dating talk episode.

03:05:00.460 Michael Knowles will be on that.

03:05:02.000 Are you sticking around?

03:05:04.240 We have a different panel for that.

03:05:05.740 Totally different panel.

03:05:06.560 If any of them flake, maybe we can wrangle in one of the...

03:05:10.640 And one of the gals here.

03:05:12.300 So, thank you to everyone who tuned in.

03:05:15.800 And, yes, we will be live again at 5 p.m. Pacific.

03:05:19.280 Thank you again to the panel.

03:05:20.320 O7's in the chat.

03:05:21.120 We'll be live again.

03:05:22.080 Stay tuned.

03:05:23.160 45...

03:05:23.780 About 45 minutes.

03:05:24.840 Thank you.

03:05:26.040 Bye.

03:05:26.960 Bye.

03:05:27.240 like?

Michael Knowles vs. 3 Feminists ｜ Whatever Debates #4

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