Whatever Podcast

00:00:00.000 welcome to the whatever podcast coming to you live from santa barbara california

00:00:11.140 i'm your host brian atlas i'm joined by special guest host chase a few quick announcements before

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00:01:06.260 without further ado i'm joined today by orion terriban he's a california board certified and licensed

00:01:13.800 psychologist receiving receiving his doctorate of psychology in 2016 he also hosts his popular

00:01:21.420 youtube channel psych hacks which has nearly half a million subscribers welcome orion thanks brian

00:01:27.200 it's good to be back good to have you back good to have you back i mean first off congrats on

00:01:31.340 uh all your success if i recall correctly i think when we last had you on for one of our dating talks i

00:01:37.040 think you were about a hundred thousand we hit a hundred thousand that that show that show and then

00:01:41.860 now you're blowing up tons of viral clips here and there you were uh on soft white underbelly i think

00:01:48.120 that got both of those got over a million views if i they weren't quite there and there was some

00:01:53.720 controversy with the first one but yeah i'm doing some more appearances what was the controversy with

00:01:57.620 the first one uh i talked about the transactional nature of relationships okay and sort of the

00:02:02.220 economic model of dating and the contemporary sexual marketplace which rubbed some people the wrong

00:02:08.100 way the second talk which was about the spiritual nature of love was much more well received okay

00:02:13.100 gotcha who did that episode rubbed the wrong way the spiritual nature of love no the first one

00:02:18.400 um it seemed to be mostly women mostly women mostly women and older women too which i think is the

00:02:24.200 majority of mark's audience why uh well i think that people would like to

00:02:33.240 believe certain things about love and relationships and to potentially not look too closely at them

00:02:41.720 oftentimes a mystified dynamic also serves those who benefit most from it and it's your mission to

00:02:52.700 clarify those things so that everybody can benefit from increased understanding i think so i think that

00:02:58.200 everybody can win in any game like if you know the rules of the game and you understand where the

00:03:03.900 pieces are on the board there is always a best move that can be made and your best bet of winning is

00:03:10.000 just to make a sequence of better moves over a long enough timeline doesn't guarantee a victory but

00:03:16.140 generally yeah people can win no matter what the game is and the game continuously evolves

00:03:22.820 the game of mating and dating it will never be fixed once and for all it will continue to change

00:03:28.560 and people will continue to adapt in order to stay successful and relevant amen to that by the way i just

00:03:34.400 want to tell the audience his youtube channel is fantastic i've watched a lot of his a lot of his

00:03:38.860 videos very good stuff very insightful stuff thanks guys it's good solid psych hacks right on youtube

00:03:44.620 psych hacks nick can you pull it up just guys if you're interested guys uh check out his channel on

00:03:50.080 youtube tons of great stuff there so uh yeah guys give him a give him a follow give him a subscribe

00:03:55.800 my first question for you uh you said that women mate and date for gain and men try to mate and date

00:04:03.280 for acceptable loss and i was very curious about that can you expand on kind of what you mean by

00:04:08.120 by that well sure i mean the mate and date for gain part is just basic hypergamy which is more the sense

00:04:15.540 of i think women need to feel like they're going to benefit from a relationship to feel like it's worth

00:04:22.780 the opportunity cost of pursuing that opportunity versus all the other opportunities they may have

00:04:28.060 available to them it sort of makes sense i think guys would also mate and date for gain kind of if

00:04:33.300 they could but because a lot of that takes place in the 20s where women's sexual marketplace value is

00:04:40.200 higher than men's i think that they are in a privileged position to better dictate terms for a relationship

00:04:46.320 and i think that if a relationship does not significantly improve a woman's life especially

00:04:52.540 in today's day and age she's going to be confident and content in just sort of doing her own thing

00:04:58.560 if it's just a little bit better or a wash it's like maybe it's actually a loss to that woman in the

00:05:04.760 long term because of the opportunity cost of foreclosing on that opportunity okay so it's simple

00:05:10.420 economics if women are mating and dating for gain then if they're mating and dating with women with men

00:05:14.940 anyway men have to sort of resign themselves to acceptable loss and i think that there is

00:05:21.380 acceptable loss and unacceptable loss and i think it's for every man to determine for himself where

00:05:27.860 that line is but as i mentioned before it's like all men pay to access a relationship with a woman

00:05:36.460 whether it's for a night or for a lifetime but the more she likes you the greater the discount

00:05:41.440 and when you say pay do you mean financially or do you tie what when you say pay what do you mean

00:05:45.800 so in general my approach to the sexual marketplace is in a grossly simplified way that men attempt to

00:05:53.900 trade resources for sexual opportunity and women attempt to exchange their sexual opportunity for

00:05:58.860 resources resources i'm defining in the broadest possible way it means like anything that isn't sex

00:06:04.500 so it could be money but it could also be time it could also be attention it could also be emotional

00:06:10.400 validation it can be instrumental support somebody who is going to help take the refrigerator up the

00:06:18.560 stairs when it needs to it could be somebody who's exciting who can provide emotional stimulation or the

00:06:23.560 alleviation of boredom like resource can mean many different things to many different women and it will

00:06:29.000 change for the same woman over time that's what also makes it so difficult to maintain long-term

00:06:33.500 relationships is that what people want constantly changes gotcha and you mentioned something about

00:06:39.700 you know the there's differences when it comes to when men and women reach their peaks sexual value

00:06:46.860 in the sexual marketplace so i mean and i think you've said men need to wait to get an advantage

00:06:52.500 sure in the sexual marketplace so i what i mean what does that mean and then when when are the peaks and

00:06:58.620 when does the switch occur sure so according to one study i read that was revealed preference of men and

00:07:05.540 women on a popular dating app which included millions data points in several major u.s markets

00:07:11.120 according to men women were most physically attractive at 23 and according to women men were most attractive

00:07:22.040 at 50 which is way older than most people think and that's potentially artifact of that one study

00:07:28.460 what it does seem to be is that women's sexual marketplace kind of value it just sort of

00:07:35.420 decreases the function of time men is more logarithmic they increase and then they kind of

00:07:40.080 plateau for a while maybe between 35 and 55 and then it's kind of a slow decline into old age

00:07:45.840 go ahead were they evaluating just physical attractiveness because when i probably not yeah when

00:07:51.660 i think of the term sexual marketplace value like i don't men oftentimes look at women and they evaluate

00:07:56.620 their sexual marketplace value based on their youth their fertility their physical appearance so on and

00:08:00.800 so forth but women don't just take into account obviously a man's physical appearance they also

00:08:05.440 take into account um what's his personality like is he funny what's his earning potential is he going to be

00:08:11.640 a provider and all of that kind of gets factored into this concept of sexual marketplace value for men

00:08:16.480 i would say in terms of women's perception of men were they just measuring physical attractiveness in

00:08:22.100 a study no they were measuring swipes okay so it's it presumably plays out the way that you do is that

00:08:29.440 a man looked at a woman's profile he probably mostly looked at her pictures and so made his selection based

00:08:35.700 on physical attractiveness which is the primary determinant of sexual marketplace value in women for men

00:08:41.160 okay for better for worse and women looked at the profile and decided what way to swipe right so they

00:08:48.000 took into account the pictures but also the responses and the context of the pictures in a grossly simplified

00:08:55.000 way i often say that men want the barbie doll and women want all the stuff the ken doll comes with

00:08:59.880 and so if in a dating profile in six pictures or even better on instagram if you can create a photo

00:09:06.100 narrative that sort of a curated people into your life that a woman could potentially look at and say

00:09:12.460 oh this is what the orion doll comes with or this is what the chase doll comes with they're going to

00:09:18.040 make their determination and be like what does it feel what what might it feel like to be in that life

00:09:23.140 next to that man right and that's kind of the fantasy that tends to motivate initial responsiveness

00:09:30.260 in the sexual marketplace right and that that age range of 50 years old was that same date

00:09:35.860 has that same data been replicated in any other studies that you know of uh it's usually not as

00:09:40.820 old as 50 50 is probably the oldest one that i've seen but it's it's actually been younger for women

00:09:47.060 and younger for men so i've seen studies where it's 21 for women and maybe 38 for men but it's generally

00:09:54.900 above like 35 oh yeah for sure i mean the average age of the sexiest man alive i think is 42

00:10:04.660 do you know what the age cohorts were that they were uh taking data from no i don't because when

00:10:10.980 i the reason why i ask is because when i think of like the mid 20 year old women that i know like

00:10:16.340 none of them would look at a 50 year old and be like oh yeah that guy's hot like that's what they

00:10:19.620 always say right right you think they're lying um maybe they are maybe they're not you know the thing

00:10:27.280 about talking about the sexual marketplace and how men and women behave inside of it is that we can at

00:10:34.800 best sort of make statistical you know observations and any statistical observation the population

00:10:42.880 level will be disproved at the individual level right so you could say that women generally respond

00:10:49.120 better to men who are taller and higher status and older and you always have a woman who might say well

00:10:54.640 that doesn't work for me i don't care anything about those things as if that doesn't validate

00:10:58.800 the population level observation right right but it is true it's like on a on an individual level it's

00:11:04.480 any it's anybody's guess and i talk about that in my forthcoming book is that perceived sexual

00:11:10.320 marketplace value because you you don't you don't actually transact with an abstraction you can't get

00:11:16.480 into a relationship with women you can't get into a relationship with men you get into a relationship

00:11:20.640 with a specific man and a specific woman and people can and do deviate significantly from

00:11:26.320 let's say the cultural expectations and the norms for what the society finds attractive right that

00:11:31.600 makes sense i you know it's interesting the more that i think about the data from that study that you

00:11:36.000 just referenced like initially i'm like man i i don't know any 20 year old 25 year old women that

00:11:40.560 are looking at 50 year old guys and they're like oh hell yeah but when i was in high school and my dad

00:11:44.560 was in his like mid 40s drove a pretty decent car he was fit all of these girls in my high

00:11:50.080 school were like chase your dad is so hot like what's like what what's his number and i'm like

00:11:54.240 i'm looking back at that i'm like yo i'm like uh there might be something to it part of it and this

00:11:59.760 is one of the things that i talk about in my book is that women in their early 20s aren't around men

00:12:06.240 in their 50s certainly not around single men that they might actually have relationships with

00:12:10.480 they're around guys who are around their age and maybe a little bit older that's why in high

00:12:14.960 school the women that you wanted dated the guys in college and when they were in college they

00:12:19.280 dated the guys who already graduated and have their own place so most people generally associate

00:12:25.200 with people around their own age until they launch into real life right and then their cohort kind of

00:12:31.200 becomes their workplace right and they start to lose not that they fall out but they kind of drift

00:12:38.800 away from their high school and college friends just in the busyness of life yeah and so i think one of

00:12:43.920 the main reasons is that women just are it's like what hannibal lecter said in sounds of lambs people

00:12:49.200 covet what they see every day and if women are around other 23 year old guys they're gonna covet the

00:12:56.640 most attractive one that they can see right but if they're exposed to a wider cohort of more successful

00:13:01.040 men who might actually be in a position to extend them the lifestyle and the commitment that they're

00:13:04.560 looking for that might actually be in their best service right and women used to have access to that

00:13:10.080 when actually their fathers were more involved in the process do you think though when it comes to

00:13:17.840 sort of an equalization of the advantage in the sexual marketplace because i mean it seems to me that

00:13:24.400 if we're comparing let's say like for like say an average an average woman to an average man

00:13:31.200 i mean at least from what i've seen on dating apps for example and perhaps we can talk about dating apps in

00:13:35.120 the moment that even an average woman and there you know there's this term the wall right women hit

00:13:42.400 the wall i don't know if there's much truth to that but um it's it seems like a bit of cope like oh once

00:13:49.200 they're 35 it's like they're they're done for but true yeah but i and it occurs to me that they still

00:13:55.600 in terms of their sexual optionality uh even even into i would argue their late 30s early 40s

00:14:03.120 women can still run circles around men when it comes to their sexual optionality some of them

00:14:08.320 yeah oftentimes guys even the playing field but guys often never get a chance to see that because

00:14:16.480 they commit to a long-term relationship in their late 20s early 30s before they enjoy

00:14:22.400 that advantageous gap in the section which is which is right around the time like you said when

00:14:27.520 they're kind of getting into their advantageous yeah generally it switches at 30 30 is when the

00:14:32.800 average male sexual marketplace value exceeds the average female sexual marketplace value for the

00:14:36.000 very first time but it doesn't really start to be noticeable until maybe 34 35 what what's the

00:14:43.280 average age of uh marriage for men and women is it like 30 and 28 is that 30 and 29 in this country

00:14:48.640 yeah so so right 29 for women yeah correct in no culture on the planet is average woman's age at first

00:14:56.160 marriage more than average man's age of first marriage and it rakes i just looked up these

00:15:02.320 numbers it ranges from like less than a year to almost a decade on average in some cultures do you

00:15:08.960 guys know how those numbers how those ages have gone up over time like do you know what it was like 50

00:15:13.920 years ago the gap in the united states has stayed mostly it's narrowed a little bit i think maybe 50 years

00:15:22.240 ago it was maybe two or three years and now it's maybe one or two but do you know what ages oh it's

00:15:28.320 definitely gone up and it was 1970 that saw the big spike in ages the average age at 1970 at marriage was like

00:15:36.080 22 24 oh wow it's at 29 30. interesting i don't think it'll go much higher than that you don't think so no

00:15:43.920 why um because it wouldn't be in women's best interest for it to go higher than that so you have to understand that

00:15:51.120 that the reason why the data looks this way is because it makes a lot of sense for women to secure

00:15:58.640 a lifetime or a long-term commitment from a man at the last moment that they enjoy in relative advantage

00:16:03.760 in the sexual marketplace like why not hitch your ride to a rising star uh you know everybody plays

00:16:11.920 blackjack women hit the wall yeah men also hit the wall too the wall is a little bit different it's not

00:16:18.160 in the sense purely of your physical attractiveness like it generally is for women but everybody is

00:16:24.240 like you know this is good the next card could improve my position but it might also cause me to

00:16:29.920 go bust i don't want to get too greedy maybe i'll stand here and it it's actually in women's best

00:16:36.000 interest to stand at the last moment that they enjoyed that advantage where they can dictate

00:16:41.680 more beneficial terms for themselves for the relationship and the man doesn't yet really enjoy

00:16:47.120 and subjectively know what it might be like to have abundant sexual optionality to have women

00:16:51.840 pursuing him to have relationships on his terms how do men hit the wall generally men hit the wall when

00:16:58.720 they have a mortality scare maybe someone close to them dies or maybe they get diagnosed with some sort of

00:17:05.600 of serious illness and they think what if no one's around when the end comes what if i you know i can't

00:17:16.880 just chase heedless hedonistic pleasure maybe i need somebody to tie my fortunes to on a deep and

00:17:24.720 significant way i think that's generally what wakes guys up so like people say that the wall happens for

00:17:30.160 women at 30 where would you estimate the wall happens for men on average uh i mean i did a

00:17:35.120 consultation with a guy yesterday he was in his late 60s and he's deciding that hey i'm in my end

00:17:40.000 game now he's never been married he was he just playing the field he was and he seems to have done

00:17:46.800 very well for himself uh he has a very high net worth he has houses in different countries around the

00:17:52.960 world he in his own words has been cleaning up and enjoying his life he's a successful professional

00:17:59.520 and a musician but now in his late 60s he's thinking you know will i just do this forever maybe i need

00:18:07.360 somebody to to care for me right he's looking to get married now i think that's the extreme example for

00:18:14.880 men yeah yeah that's pretty late that's a that's that's a that's a long time men have before they hit the

00:18:20.560 wall but it makes sense he can still have kids though right he can't yeah he's good i think he's

00:18:26.880 good did al pacino just have another child yeah he's got time yeah who's that rocker that did too

00:18:34.000 like a year or two ago was it keith richards who's someone maybe who's the uh i don't know he's still

00:18:39.280 kicking um i have i have a question so so you before the show we were talking about your practice sure and

00:18:46.160 for anybody unaware uh dr orion terriban as a psychologist and a therapist you've worked

00:18:50.720 with thousands of clients right yes so one i i asked my instagram and twitter audiences if they

00:18:57.200 had any questions for you great and one of the one of the top questions was what are the most important

00:19:03.280 qualities that it could be sex specific men or women or both sexes what are the most important

00:19:09.120 qualities people should look for in a part in a long-term relational partner oh that's a good question

00:19:16.160 i think it's a little bit different depending on if you're a man or a woman one of the things that

00:19:26.880 i tell guys like the thing that the the best woman they could possibly get in the sexual marketplace in

00:19:34.400 my opinion is a useful eight so tell us what that means well if we're going to be using the you know the

00:19:43.040 metric for a sexual marketplace value um i don't know if you've ever dated women that you would

00:19:48.400 consider nines and tens based on your own subjective perception is this like the crazy hot matrix it's

00:19:53.120 kind of is like they're just yeah yeah well some of them are absolutely nutty in a handful um because

00:20:00.720 they've also been created that way a lot of these very beautiful young women were beautiful precociously

00:20:06.560 like from a very young age they started to realize that they could command male attention

00:20:14.560 using their bodies or their sensuality and that was a power that they became aware of before they even

00:20:23.120 really understood how to utilize it or to handle it but because they became aware of that power at such

00:20:28.400 an early age a lot of them didn't develop other parts of their personality it's so common i've seen

00:20:34.640 that so many times but i i can understand where they were coming from being a beautiful woman is

00:20:38.080 like being a billionaire's scion you know it's like the rules don't really apply to you you you have

00:20:43.760 such a distorted view of what everyday life is and what normal people go through you can't possibly

00:20:50.240 you know sympathize or associate on some level right this is the pattern that i've noticed here in

00:20:55.600 the area there's a lot of really attractive chicks that are dumb as rocks and have nothing interesting

00:21:00.560 to say and there's a lot of really interesting girls that aren't as well think about it why why

00:21:05.040 do why did i have to cultivate my intelligence because i i thought that it was a way to make a

00:21:13.040 living and to get money and to secure my place in the world right you have to provide value but if i

00:21:18.560 could get money and secure my place in the world without the hard work of cultivating my intelligence and

00:21:25.760 building my practice or what why wouldn't i you know that might be a temptation that i might not

00:21:30.640 have been able to resist either it's the path of least resistance it is everything that we're doing

00:21:35.920 is is to get what we want and if you're offered what you want on a silver platter from a very early

00:21:42.160 age you're not gonna work to get it like everybody else does that doesn't make those people bad people

00:21:48.800 this the people had to work for those things absolutely the vast majority of them would act exactly like

00:21:54.640 the really rich or really attractive people right but they just didn't have the option right they

00:21:59.280 could either like cry and mope about or they could do something about it right so so to go back to this

00:22:05.120 concept of a useful eight what does it mean for a woman to be a useful eight obviously eight she's not

00:22:10.640 a 10 out of 10 so to speak but yeah so she's developed her personality usually even better if she's an ugly

00:22:15.840 duckling as i talk about on my channel so women definitely bloom at different ages you know and um i know

00:22:24.480 women absolutely who are more attractive in their early 30s than they were in their early 20s that

00:22:31.200 it happens sometimes women they only start to understand they start to take care of their

00:22:37.440 appearance they start to dress better they start to work out they start to have a cognizance of the

00:22:42.160 sexual marketplace for whatever reason they weren't just focused on those things which actually makes

00:22:46.240 them kind of sweet and um almost naive in a way yeah which makes them kind of good faith actors in

00:22:52.480 the marketplace because they're not as you could say cynical or you could also say worldly

00:22:58.400 um so an ugly duckling who's an eight an eight is by far she's going to be attractive enough for you

00:23:05.120 like she's going to be able to maintain your sexual interest you don't need more than that

00:23:10.800 um and useful so you like to have a woman in your life that actually makes your life better

00:23:18.400 that contributes value that you look forward to spending time with another thing i say someone

00:23:24.400 once asked me about a woman i was dating who i i really liked and they said well what do you

00:23:32.320 about that girl what do you think about her and i said you know what she's inoffensive

00:23:38.000 and that was like the highest praise i could give that woman i have dated many different women in my

00:23:44.080 life and the ones that i've had the longest relationships with were not the hottest we're

00:23:49.840 not the smartest we're not the um the most savvy with respect to relationships they were not the most

00:23:58.080 like domesticated whatever that means it was the women who were the most inoffensive they were so easy to

00:24:06.880 get along with they didn't cause any problems they didn't create any disrespect they actually cared

00:24:14.640 and even better worked and made an effort to make my life better and to further the goals that i was

00:24:21.200 working towards both for myself and for the relationship they brought you peace i already had

00:24:26.320 peace it's so much easier to attract a woman who isn't going to disrupt your peace if you have peace

00:24:32.080 already yourself if you're looking for peace from a woman you don't have it yet i i don't know if i

00:24:37.120 mean it in that sense where as in perhaps your life is chaotic but by introducing her she's brought

00:24:43.760 peace to your life but perhaps it perhaps the what i mean there is she's not she's bringing you peace by

00:24:51.440 not introducing chaos into your life because with so many relationships uh it can certainly a lot of them

00:24:59.760 can uh introduce quite a bit of chaos it's certainly true i was doing a consultation with a woman the

00:25:04.160 other day who was in her late 30s and she wanted to find a husband almost all the consultation to do

00:25:12.080 with women these days are about how to get a husband and she was contrite she admitted that she had

00:25:21.280 drank some of the ideological kool-aid for a long time and she's waking up to the fact that that caused

00:25:27.040 her to behave in certain ways that were counterproductive to her ultimate relationship

00:25:32.000 goals and she's trying to disabuse herself from a lot of that ideology right is that a really polite

00:25:37.120 way of saying that she was promiscuous throughout her 20s no i think it was more a polite way of saying

00:25:41.440 that she was a proud feminist and progressive ideology yes we love we love calling out the proud

00:25:48.720 feminism it is not an attractive quality and she was swearing up and down she's like found my

00:25:54.560 content your content is so helpful orion i am trying to be very respectful for men i'm trying to

00:26:00.960 be submissive and obedient and i i just stopped her and i was like look all that sounds real good

00:26:07.680 like okay but you actually don't need to be respectful or obedient or subservient to men just don't be

00:26:15.680 disrespectful just don't be disobedient just don't be conflictual like that's enough you don't have to go

00:26:24.240 out of your you don't have to put a guy on a pedestal and pretend that he's some new god and

00:26:28.880 just cater to his ego does it help does that help it can like one of the best it's not good for the

00:26:34.880 men but one of the best ways a woman can get a man is to cater to his ego it's like she stoops to

00:26:40.640 conquer kind of a thing right oh you're so strong i never would have thought of that it's like really

00:26:45.680 okay so many women play men but you're saying so long as there's a just the bare minimum of not being

00:26:53.440 disrespectful that can get a woman really far way far yeah yeah you don't have to necessarily do all of

00:27:01.760 these wonderful great things i mean if you can it helps it's great for sure i'm not gonna say no to

00:27:08.080 that but like the the one bad thing that you that you do is probably more bad than the one good thing

00:27:16.080 that you do in fact according to let's say john gottman's research into relationship longevity

00:27:23.040 in which couples break up in which couples divorce he said that couples need to have at least five

00:27:28.800 positive micro interactions for every one negative micro interaction which one way to think about that

00:27:34.240 is that like a negative interaction is five times more negative than a positive interaction is

00:27:38.400 positive makes sense you i mean you're on youtube it's sort of like kind of human nature you might

00:27:46.080 get 99 positive comments but the one that's not is the one that you tend to remember yeah you tend to

00:27:51.920 focus you could get a hundred positive messages but you get a couple nasty ones and you'll you'll pay a

00:27:57.760 little more attention to those then yeah and those one or two things can can cancel out the 99 98 things

00:28:03.920 that you're doing well so just don't do the things that mess it up i i do want to come back

00:28:08.080 to the useful aid thing and then chase's original question but really quick just since we we brought

00:28:13.040 up uh peace what do you think about uh proverbs 21 19 better to live in the desert than with a

00:28:19.360 quarrelsome and nagging wife i actually think it was a corner of the attic there's two i think

00:28:25.040 there's different versions yeah sorry so there there is like a what is it better to live better

00:28:30.000 better to live in the desert than with a quarrelsome wife and better to live on the corner

00:28:33.840 of a house or corner of a roof than with a quarrelsome wife that's the one i know yeah because

00:28:38.880 i know a lot of guys who live in a corner of their own house i don't know a lot of guys who live in

00:28:42.480 the desert do you i mean when it on that note are you uh helping out men who are in uh contentious

00:28:49.520 marriages or oh yeah all the time okay it's very difficult to fix like it's so much easier to do the

00:28:56.480 right thing from the beginning than to do the wrong thing for 10 20 years and then try to do the right

00:29:01.040 thing is is there a commonality a common thread between the situations and how they get fixed

00:29:09.600 because i i've got i've got some theories on it but i'm curious from a professional

00:29:13.520 perspective i usually target a specific behavior and apply behavioral principles to it so like

00:29:21.040 bad behavior from a woman is in a relationship is generally co-created yes it's potentially coming

00:29:27.440 from her but it exists and is being maintained or even rewarded in a dynamic that exists between two

00:29:32.880 people so one thing that i teach guys is to become more aware of let's say the reinforcement

00:29:40.160 contingencies under which that behavior occurs a lot of women say things that could be very hurtful

00:29:46.720 to men not necessarily because they really believe them in their heart of hearts but because

00:29:52.000 they work they work they work to get that man to do what she wants and to the extent that the guy

00:29:59.680 backs down or changes his behavior or gives up seeing his friends or his hobbies or whatever it is

00:30:06.960 it's going to make it easier for that woman to do that thing in the future

00:30:11.840 and the more that the guy concedes the more that woman kind of becomes monstrous

00:30:17.360 which isn't good for him obviously but it's also not good for her and so when i talk about it this

00:30:24.640 way it's like oh she's not a bad person it's just almost like the the hot young women they're not

00:30:29.120 they're not bad it's just life has thrown all of these things at them so fast it's and they're kind of

00:30:36.240 making maybe short-term but rational decisions about getting those good things into their lives okay

00:30:44.480 so one thing i talk about is that it always gets worse before it gets better so if you start to

00:30:51.600 change a entrenched dynamic even if changing it would be in the best interest of both parties involved

00:30:58.400 the person who more directly or immediately benefits from it is going to get peaced she's going to get

00:31:04.080 very angry it's kind of like you have to stay in your lane this isn't how it works that's not what i

00:31:09.680 signed up for and that's called an extinction burst where you see an intensification in the behavior

00:31:16.240 that you're actually trying to get rid of and it's designed to kind of reinstate the status quo

00:31:24.080 and that's why i say that guy shouldn't do this lightly because if they kind of do this casually and

00:31:28.720 not prepared for things getting worse they're just going to make a bigger monster out of the situation

00:31:34.400 but if you change what you do and you hold the line and you offer a different form of reinforcement

00:31:41.200 then if you if you do that maybe 10 times in a row you might you might have solved the problem

00:31:46.320 maybe not all the way uh but it will get better does that make sense yeah it does i have you read

00:31:53.280 the book love and respect so um i was talking to a friend of mine recently about like women and

00:32:00.400 relationships and stuff like that and he shared with me a quote that his dad had shared with him

00:32:04.160 and and what his dad told him was you know at their base level what men most need in a relationship from

00:32:10.480 a woman is respect and what women most need in a relationship is love and most men would rather

00:32:17.440 be respected than loved and most women would rather be loved than alone right loved or respected

00:32:23.600 you think most women would rather be loved or respected well you said loved or alone right most

00:32:30.560 women would rather be loved than they would prefer to be alone is what his dad said what i'm saying is

00:32:35.680 that that's a study that's a very famous study survey study where they gave a choice to a bunch of men

00:32:41.680 would you rather be loved or respected and gave the same choice to women men would rather be respected

00:32:46.880 than loved and women would rather be loved than respected so maybe it's a slightly different study

00:32:51.440 it might be but my point being his dad got that information from a book called love and respect

00:32:57.120 okay based on um the the author he was a christian author and he wrote this off of some verses in

00:33:01.680 ephesians um the verses i think it's ephesians 5 where it says that you know women ought to submit to

00:33:07.760 their husbands which speaks to a deep need that men have in relationships to be respected and also men have

00:33:13.120 to have unwavering love towards their wives and lay down their their lives for their wives like christ laid

00:33:18.160 down his life for the church and i was i was reading through the book and it was talking about

00:33:22.160 the negative downward spirals that people can get into in in relationships where like if men feel like

00:33:27.680 they're being disrespected by their woman oftentimes what they'll do in response is they'll pull back

00:33:32.160 their love a bit because they'll be like okay i don't want to deal with you right now i'm not going

00:33:36.320 to treat you in the same affectionate loving way because you're disrespecting me and that often causes

00:33:41.520 women to then start nagging the man more and more and more because she wants attention from him

00:33:46.000 and so it's kind of like she's using a negative behavior to try and get what she actually wants

00:33:50.880 and i've you know i've seen this in my own family like my grandmother type of woman who could nag a

00:33:54.800 man to death right but she does it because she wants attention um and like when when women feel like

00:34:01.200 you know as i was saying when women feel like a man is pulling back their love like they will push

00:34:05.120 that negative behavior towards them and he the author talked about how to break that downward spiral by

00:34:11.040 you know the way he described it he was like men need to show women unconditional love they

00:34:15.840 need to show their wives unconditional love that can break the negative cycle for women sometimes

00:34:20.560 and if women show a man unconditional respect that can break um the negative cycle on their end

00:34:26.800 what do you think about that i think i i follow you i'm not a big fan of the word unconditional

00:34:32.320 i think love is and can be unconditional but i think that relationships are conditional and i think

00:34:38.480 that's actually as as they should be when we create positions in relationships or in society that

00:34:44.560 are completely immune from any kind of revocation those are historically the positions that are

00:34:50.080 most prone to abuses right like i'm glad that divorce exists like because without that exit some

00:34:57.280 relations some marriages could get really really dark and right really bad i think that divorce is

00:35:02.320 clearly over utilized but i'm glad that it exists as a social entity let's put it that way right

00:35:10.320 so i don't love the unconditional word i see the point that you're making yeah uh yeah i think that

00:35:16.400 men interpret respect as love yeah if a woman you know

00:35:26.000 if you came to me for advice chase and i sat down with you and i said okay well based on what you're

00:35:30.560 telling me i think you should try x y and z and then you went off and did what the fuck whatever you

00:35:35.280 wanted to do anyway well one i'd be less likely to sit down with you and give you counsel in the

00:35:39.760 future if you were to ask me for it because i felt like i took my time to guide you and you didn't

00:35:47.600 have enough faith in what i was saying that you just you disregarded it and whatever feeling you might

00:35:55.040 have inside of you about me in that moment i would feel like you didn't really value what i had to give

00:36:02.080 right as a result of that let's say disobedience that's what's another possible way of approaching

00:36:07.840 faith actually like if a doctor gives you a certain treatment says hey you got to take this pill twice

00:36:13.520 a day and i you think you should do 30 minutes of cardio and i think you need to cut this out and you

00:36:17.600 nod and say yeah that's great and then you go off and do whatever you want anyway you had no faith

00:36:22.640 in that treatment you didn't believe that if you followed that advice it would actually improve

00:36:28.000 your health and get you what you wanted so faith has to be connected to obedience right if you're

00:36:34.400 not obeying you have no faith that that will work right and and your disobedience also shows that you

00:36:40.320 don't value what the other person is saying and certainly if i'm if i'm just not following anything

00:36:44.480 that you're saying after coming to you for advice or or counsel or whatever you're going to be like

00:36:47.760 well why would i continue giving that to you i hear you like and and this is tricky because

00:36:53.360 then you get into well why should i be obedient why should i listen to you well because i'm the man

00:36:58.960 or because i'm the doctor it's like those are ultimately arguments of authority and they only

00:37:05.200 work to an extent right so i was also a teacher for about 20 years and i worked with thousands of

00:37:11.920 students and some of them would follow my advice and some of them would not and when i'd ask the

00:37:18.320 students who weren't following my advice why they didn't do these things they said well i thought

00:37:22.880 that i could do this but not do that they were like cherry picking the things that they wanted

00:37:26.000 to do which is kind of irrational because if they knew better what to do they would be the teacher

00:37:33.920 you understand right so what i told them is that the only way that they could possibly prove that i

00:37:39.280 was wrong that i didn't know what i was talking about was for them to do exactly what i told them to

00:37:44.320 do and for it to not work right because until that happens we don't know if i'm the problem or you're

00:37:48.880 the problem right right and usually when i frame it that way just as an experiment do exactly what

00:37:54.560 i tell you to do and we'll see what the outcome and results are usually i get a lot of more buy-in

00:38:00.000 into that relationship afterwards yeah as opposed to well i'm the teacher you should just follow what

00:38:04.320 i have to say yeah like that yeah i've had so many bad teachers in my life yeah same if uh we can just i

00:38:11.920 think we didn't fully get over your original question we were talking about the useful aids sure useful

00:38:17.120 aids um i have some i have a clarifying question for that particular subject yeah do you want to

00:38:22.080 restate your because yeah so the original question was what what are the top qualities that people

00:38:28.960 men and women or men or women should look for in a long-term partner and on the subject of the useful

00:38:35.360 eight we can start there so when i when i queried my audience about what questions they might have for

00:38:41.200 you one of the most common ones that women had were so like there was one one girl that messaged me she

00:38:46.720 was saying i'm not married yet but i want to do everything that i can to prepare myself to become

00:38:51.360 as valuable as possible for my future husband so she wants to make herself let's assume she's doing

00:38:56.160 everything she can to take care of her health her physical appearance all that kind of stuff

00:39:00.400 what qualities can she or women in general besides just being inoffensive what qualities can women

00:39:07.360 cultivate to make themselves as valuable as possible again inoffensiveness is huge because i i don't want to

00:39:13.440 i want to stress this it's better to get rid of the one or two things that are sabotaging your success

00:39:19.200 than to practice 10 new good things that are just going to be canceled out by the one or two bad things

00:39:24.080 that you're not attending to so the inoffensiveness is key it should be number one okay one thing that i i

00:39:30.960 think might be useful for people to approach both men and women is to think of relationships like roles

00:39:36.640 people often have a problem with the word role they think that it's playing make-believe or it's

00:39:44.320 faking or it's lying and i don't i think it can be those things but i also think that it's not

00:39:49.440 necessarily those things we all have roles at work right we don't just say whatever we want when we're

00:39:56.880 on the job or do whatever we feel like doing in the moment a lot of us have this professional role

00:40:03.680 and it doesn't mean that we're lying or faking it just means that certain parts of ourselves

00:40:07.520 come to the forefront while we're on the job and certain others fade into the background and the

00:40:11.440 more you occupy that role the more that you're like authentically embodying that role too right

00:40:17.040 so it and everyone's professional in their own unique way you know what i'm saying one of the things

00:40:22.480 that i think get people into a lot of trouble especially women is they kind of think that

00:40:27.840 the relationship their intimate relationship is where they don't have to do any of that

00:40:31.600 it's like out there is where i have to keep it together and serve other people and you know keep

00:40:37.680 uh keep it together here i don't have to do that i should just be able to say whatever i want and do

00:40:44.480 whatever i want and you should just love me irrespective of what i say or do right um because

00:40:50.320 this is where i finally get to relax and let all that stuff go right and i would say the only time

00:40:54.240 you really get to do that is when you're alone like i'm more of a kind of a confusionist with

00:41:00.720 respect to this in the sense of like there are different roles that we all play i play the role

00:41:06.480 of brother of son a boyfriend a therapist and i play them often concurrently right and different roles

00:41:15.760 have different privileges and different responsibilities and if you want to occupy that role

00:41:21.440 legitimately and through time you have to assume those responsibilities and you get to enjoy those

00:41:27.280 privileges as a result like the privileges and responsibilities should be commensurate with each

00:41:31.520 other so to understand in terms of a role like what do most men want from a woman that they're in an

00:41:38.720 intimate relationship they want somebody who's sweet they want somebody who's kind they want somebody

00:41:46.000 who's feminine they want this home that they're creating with this woman to be an oasis for them

00:41:53.520 in life which can be very very difficult for men a lot of men the most dangerous place in the world for

00:42:01.280 them is at home like why would a woman create that for their men like that's a terrible terrible idea

00:42:08.960 right um so to approach relationships in terms of a role and if we do that we can also see that there

00:42:15.520 might be traits or skills or attributes that make a person more able to discharge that role than

00:42:21.440 others it's like i said kindness sweetness femininity um i think a sense of humor emotional equilibrium

00:42:29.440 is huge like guys will have different um i talk about this with women guys say they like femininity

00:42:35.120 and what they mean is they they kind of want the the the nice made up appearances and the softness but

00:42:42.480 often what comes with femininity is the emotion and sometimes we'd rather not deal with that so much

00:42:48.000 i personally get along best because of who i am with women who have low expressed emotionality i've

00:42:53.840 dated very high expressed emotional women and i like women who are kind of like emotionally even keel

00:43:00.960 that sometimes means that i don't get that like super lovey-dovey highs but i don't get the crazy

00:43:06.960 key or car lows yeah what about from women looking towards men in terms of the top qualities that

00:43:13.760 they should look for in men what would you say what produces the greatest success and happiness

00:43:21.200 for women and relational fulfillment in those like what what qualities are required for a lot of things

00:43:26.560 are practical like we know both men and women report greater relational and marital satisfaction when the

00:43:33.920 man makes more than the woman when the man is more successful when he has a higher earning and he's

00:43:40.000 higher status that's good for both the men and the women okay the issue with that is a lot of women

00:43:48.560 want to target the men who already have the status and the wealth and the success and the lifestyle and

00:43:55.120 those men have the pick of the litter and a lot of guys if given near infinite sexual optionality are

00:44:06.800 not going to be interested in settling down with any one of those women and a lot of women have to

00:44:12.000 take a really cold hard look in the at themselves and say could i beat out a hundred other women for

00:44:18.880 this relationship because you might have to another thing i talk about is like date like it's your job

00:44:24.000 if women are really serious about getting married like how many hours a week are they working and

00:44:28.720 how many hours the week are they trying to get a man right like maybe they go on two dates a week

00:44:33.440 but they give 50 hours 60 hours to their career a lot of women bulk and say well you know what am

00:44:39.760 i going to do just live in a hovel or with my parents until some man comes along it's like i get it

00:44:44.560 we need money and things like that but if you're giving 60 hours a week of your life to your work for 15

00:44:52.880 years that's no longer a hedge you're not hedging your bet against not finding a man that's your

00:44:57.840 primary bet and that's what you're going to get if that's what you're giving the majority of your time

00:45:02.640 and energy to you're going to get the career um so it's no longer a hedge the way they handle it

00:45:08.400 right so a lot of women can't successfully compete for the fully extrapolated man when he's actually

00:45:16.720 arrived so i talk about like how men should try to look for their ugly duckling women can look for

00:45:23.200 their dark horse a dark horse is a racing metaphor it's a horse with bad odds like 100 to 1 who actually

00:45:31.360 goes on to win the race so this actually requires knowing shit about horses you can't just read the

00:45:39.920 names and think oh stormy i like the color of his mane you know and it's like you can't make your

00:45:44.640 bedding based on that you have to understand how you know look at their teeth and what's a good

00:45:50.320 healthy horse's teeth look at their hooves i don't know much about horses actually um you know it's like

00:45:57.040 you have to become an expert in horses to be able to tell which horses are undervalued and have a good

00:46:04.320 chance of going the distance by analogy women should get better at understanding men and understanding men

00:46:12.640 with potential yes it's like what kinds of things should they be looking for um these are things

00:46:18.960 like ambition drive um a vision for the future um these are things like discipline these are things like

00:46:29.680 the ability to great delay gratification um these are things like uh

00:46:35.600 uh kindness and responsibility to others i think those things can help a woman discern

00:46:47.440 a dark horse before he's won the race i would i would add assertiveness in there too and of course

00:46:52.960 confidence confidence is tricky because confidence is so attractive to women like i i made an episode

00:47:01.120 recently it hasn't even been released yet but i talk about how men get it wrong all the time about

00:47:06.720 what gets you laid in particular they think it's going to be money they think it's going to be a

00:47:10.080 six pack they think it's going to be six three i'm sure all those things help like if you had two

00:47:14.400 identical men and one had a six pack and one didn't why wouldn't you choose the guy with a six pack it's

00:47:18.320 like okay i get that but i call those things relationship attraction proxies because guys think that just

00:47:24.000 having them will cause women to line up and that's not what happens yeah the three things that actually

00:47:30.240 get you laid as a guy are confidence the ability to engage a woman's emotions and being a contextual

00:47:36.080 alpha and confidence is tricky because gotta be humble well but yeah it's like i like i like confident

00:47:46.560 but not cocky and it's like it's very difficult to walk that line i hear what you're saying but this

00:47:51.520 is the this is the issue that men find themselves my definition of confidence is it's the consistent

00:47:57.520 felt experience of success the way to authentically be confident is to do the thing to do the thing

00:48:03.360 enough times that you know all things being equal you can do it and to emotionally integrate that into

00:48:07.120 yourself but obviously that takes a lot of reps when you're 22 you probably don't have consistent

00:48:13.200 success yet but you're still expected to be confident so you can kind of have this like psychotic

00:48:19.360 confidence that isn't like based on actual delusional self-confidence you could call it that yeah and

00:48:26.080 there's like narcissistic guys who have that there's also guys who they have six shots and

00:48:32.000 they can do that you know what i'm saying it's like in and it can be difficult for women to tell

00:48:38.560 the difference between the narcissistic kind of confidence and the grounded authentic confidence but

00:48:44.880 most 22 year olds don't yet have consistent success so they do kind of have to fake it until

00:48:49.680 they make it for a while i have a video coming out about that about how to be confident without

00:48:54.240 success obviously the success is makes it much easier to have confidence but sometimes we have

00:48:59.520 to act before we have what we want to get what we want yeah do you have uh questions you want to

00:49:07.040 follow up on i've got i got this has been a great conversation yeah i got some real real interesting

00:49:11.440 ones i got one and then if you want to just fire through them uh just like what what do you think is

00:49:15.760 the biggest red flag in a woman oh yeah so externalizing so an externalizer is somebody who's

00:49:27.680 doesn't have an internal locus of control so it's not that you know she she gets angry it's not because

00:49:36.640 of anything that's going on inside of her mind it's that you did this

00:49:40.000 the problem with externalizers is because they don't see their thoughts and emotions and behavior

00:49:48.960 as originating within themselves but in their environment they just are responding to their

00:49:52.960 environment so the way that they're going to regulate their own emotion is not by controlling

00:49:57.120 themselves but by trying to control everything around them and if you're going to be around them

00:50:01.600 they're going to be trying to control you and so like don't do that uh we have to do this

00:50:07.760 and if you deviate from that they get all out of sorts because they're in this like perpetual and

00:50:14.240 completely futile quest to make external reality permanently exactly how they want it to be so

00:50:20.480 they can feel non-anxious or not angry or whatever and that's not possible it's not possible to do that but

00:50:29.120 a lot of times externalizers lack the insight and awareness that that's what they're doing and trying

00:50:34.400 to explain to these people that their feelings and their behavior originates in them and their choices

00:50:42.320 some of them will you're just trying to trick me you're you don't understand me it's again they

00:50:48.960 won't be able to accept any kind of accountability and there's it's absolutely impossible to have a

00:50:55.200 peaceful loving relationship with a person like that so this raises an interesting question that i was

00:51:01.600 dying to ask you and this is something i've been trying to figure out for a while and i think you've

00:51:04.960 spoken about it on previous podcasts what is it about women and accountability to where the

00:51:10.880 two are just like oil and water why is that well how often do we really hold them accountable

00:51:20.000 i mean like bro i hold chicks accountable but like it's it's like trying to grab something

00:51:25.680 that's like very slippery i hear you like i remember many years ago i was in a relationship

00:51:30.320 with a woman a beautiful woman like just a total dime piece went on to be a lingerie model and

00:51:40.720 i met her when she was 23 like at her peak hotness it was a tough relationship because apparently

00:51:48.400 according to her i was the first man in her entire life who ever told her no

00:51:52.000 no not any of her previous boyfriends not her brother not her father no man had ever told her

00:51:58.480 no imagine getting to be 23 years old and no one has ever told you no like you were going like when

00:52:03.440 toddlers are told no they have a tantrum because that's the first time they've heard no if you haven't

00:52:12.080 you you will have a tantrum the first time you heard you're no whether it's two or 23.

00:52:17.360 it just looks better on a two-year-old than on a 23 year old you understand yeah so the point is is

00:52:24.000 like how often do we as a culture hold women accountable it's very rare it's very rare sure

00:52:33.920 i guess just the pattern that i've noticed is like when i look back at my life and i look at obvious

00:52:39.760 screw-ups that i've had i'm the type of person that takes accountability for them because i want to

00:52:45.760 learn from them and i don't want to keep repeating my mistakes i've noticed that when when speaking

00:52:52.480 with women oftentimes maybe about previous mistakes current mistakes that they're making whatever

00:52:57.040 the pattern that i notice is it's not like how a man would often take accountability where it's like

00:53:01.840 yeah i screwed up okay like i'm gonna i'm gonna try and avoid that again it's a constant process of

00:53:06.480 emotional justification for their actions without admitting that it was a mistake this is the pattern

00:53:11.520 that i notice again i think it's not necessarily because in their heart of hearts they believe it

00:53:16.000 yeah it's because it works like every time the cop lets the woman off the hook for the speeding ticket

00:53:23.360 because she's crying it just trains that kind of behavior in women okay like to what extent has

00:53:30.800 acting in that way caused the dad to let up when she was a girl or previous boyfriends to kind of like

00:53:39.200 well like she what else can i do i i try to reason with her i i can either give her what she wants or leave

00:53:47.600 so what i'm saying is that a lot of the things that people do they do not because they really

00:53:55.760 believe those things often but because it helps them to get what they want in the short term right

00:53:59.680 and they can get away with it exactly right so that attempt to emotionally justify their reactions

00:54:07.200 has worked in the past for those women right which is why they do it now right it's that simple and if

00:54:13.920 we held women to the same level of accountability that we hold men to we we would see that behavior

00:54:18.880 disappear like it doesn't exist in other cultures to the extent that it exists in this culture which is

00:54:24.240 very permissive of female behavior there's a quote from socrates it goes trust not a woman when she weeps

00:54:32.240 for it is her nature to weep when she wants her will thoughts on that it's a banger yeah i mean again

00:54:40.080 i think people do sorry madison works i agree oh you agree okay people do what works right and the thing

00:54:46.880 about this that sometimes people you know rubs in the wrong way is that reinforcement tendencies

00:54:54.080 don't have to be conscious like i might be reinforcing a behavior in you you might not be

00:55:01.920 aware that that's happening and i might not be aware that i'm doing it but it still might be

00:55:09.360 occurring under the surface like there there is definitely a lot of cultures i think like in indian

00:55:15.520 women very emotionally self-regulated japanese taiwanese women very emotionally self-regulated

00:55:22.560 and i think that they have much stricter upbringings and their their families and their cultures don't

00:55:28.080 tolerate some of the behavior that we permissively allow like in the west we kind of have the the

00:55:36.320 myth of the the weaker sex and with that myth comes permissiveness when you say myth do you mean like

00:55:43.520 that's like a story and archetype or do you think it's actually a myth that women are the weaker sex no

00:55:48.160 i think it's a story that we have in the west that other cultures don't and the flip side of that is

00:55:53.520 is if you're if you're the weaker sex then we have to make allowances for your weakness

00:56:02.320 right okay so i have a i have a question that's completely on a different topic this was one of

00:56:06.480 the most common ones that that came up what what advice would you give men to make sure that they're

00:56:11.760 being extremely effective leaders in their relationships i know that you've talked a lot

00:56:16.080 about purpose i'm sure you've talked about leadership on your channel what would you say in that aspect

00:56:21.120 you gotta have a plan like most guys never thought that they would get as far as they have

00:56:27.440 like their plan was to go up and maybe chat the girl up and she actually says yes it's like i never

00:56:32.000 thought i'd get this far kind of a thing let alone she's in a relationship this is also a big asymmetry

00:56:39.040 between men and women where generally women don't understand how much work it takes just to be the guy

00:56:45.920 that the woman will say yes to yes even for a date yeah i've said in one video that it's taken me like

00:56:52.800 10 years to be able to pick a girl up in 10 minutes yeah do you understand women have no idea they have

00:56:57.600 no idea work men have to put in and so a lot of guys never get past that point because they spend so

00:57:03.360 much time and effort just getting the woman to say yes and oftentimes it's like that's kind of what they

00:57:08.960 want the early stages of the dating process are really nice for a lot of guys it's like there's no

00:57:16.720 pressure there might not even be an expectation of exclusivity there is uh we live in different

00:57:25.360 places we come together once twice a week we go our separate ways there's a lot of dating and going

00:57:30.240 out and sex it's like a lot of good times for a lot of guys that could go on indefinitely like

00:57:37.440 why mess with a good thing kind of a thing um and for a lot of guys they shouldn't move further

00:57:44.400 than that like the idea that marriage is for everyone is wrong it's wrong and that's i think

00:57:51.600 why we have the high divorce rate that we see among other reasons why do you think marriage isn't for

00:57:57.040 everyone uh just because it seems that lots of people have trouble with it in the sense of like

00:58:04.800 and i i think our culture doesn't have an alternative to marriage yet besides nothing

00:58:12.080 or just like casual promiscuity yeah which doesn't serve people in the long run either

00:58:17.600 do you think it's that marriage isn't for everyone or do you think it's that most people get into

00:58:21.680 marriage not having their together not having an understanding of how to be a proper partner

00:58:26.800 how to properly be in relationship sure i mean that's certainly part of it but how do you learn those

00:58:30.720 things until you you you have the opportunity to practice them so it's like how do you prepare for

00:58:37.280 a relationship without being in a relationship it's very hard to do well i think that there's principles

00:58:42.320 that people can learn and understand before they get into a relationship like we we've gone over a

00:58:46.480 number of them during this conversation sure there's principles and then there's the execution of those

00:58:51.120 principles right you know right um it's like learning how to swim from reading a book you can't really do

00:58:56.880 that you have to get in the water um what was the question that you asked before i was asking about

00:59:05.520 why you don't think marriage is for everyone okay that's the more recent question um i think that just

00:59:11.520 by looking at the facts that people seem to have a lot of trouble staying married okay and i think i made

00:59:18.000 an episode about this that one of the reasons for that is we marriage is fundamentally a very humble

00:59:23.760 institution it's very humble and we want it to be too many things at the very least the modern

00:59:30.640 conceptual of marriage consists of a legal contract it consists of a solemn oath before god it consists

00:59:36.880 of cohabitation you live together co-parenting you're going to raise children together uh you're my best

00:59:42.080 friend and you're my passionate sexual romantic partner an exclusive sex dealer and those are just

00:59:50.320 the basics other people want a therapist other people want a mommy or a daddy other people want

00:59:54.400 a personal chef or a maid it's like it's very very difficult to be good at all of those things at the

01:00:01.040 same time right and i don't think that marriage had that expectation to be all things to all people

01:00:09.200 do you think you'll get married i don't think so i think i can make a long-term commitment to a woman

01:00:18.640 and i've done that in the past um but the the actual legal contract as different from the spiritual or

01:00:26.400 religious institution of marriage is i don't see how it serves me yeah i think it's just nothing but risk

01:00:32.400 with no upside to compensate for that risk gotcha did you have another one chase i got some more

01:00:38.640 yeah i mean to follow up on something okay later we'll do that we'll save that one okay that's a

01:00:44.240 juicy one um uh to follow up on something you said a moment ago so like what i got a number of questions

01:00:50.880 from men uh who were you know they're expressing the fact that they have anxiety when it comes to

01:00:55.360 approaching women sure and one of the reasons there's a few reasons for this i mean for one like

01:01:00.240 speaking as a guy who has been rejected in the past like it can be crushing and blowing to your

01:01:05.760 ego when you approach a woman but also there's more importantly we live in this culture where

01:01:10.400 there's like this like weird me too culture and like women will treat guys like they're just the

01:01:15.040 biggest creeps in the world you'll see viral videos of women who will you know get in their cars after

01:01:20.720 being approached in the supermarket and talk about how some guy was the creepiest thing in the world and

01:01:24.800 like it'll go super viral and you know we there's a weird yeah women should really dissuade that

01:01:29.680 behavior in other women because she that behavior is running it for a lot of women who want to be

01:01:34.480 approached yeah and this is this is the thing that i often hear from women too they're like man i wish

01:01:39.360 more guys would approach but a lot of guys nowadays they like women out there will explicitly say they

01:01:46.240 don't want guys approaching them and then that content gets blasted out on the algorithm so a lot of

01:01:51.680 guys have anxiety about this and they were they were asking me to ask you like what advice would

01:01:56.960 you give those men i think the ability to overcome your approach anxiety as a man is really important

01:02:03.600 it's something that i made a committed effort to do about 10 years ago and it was difficult i made an

01:02:10.240 episode about it and i put on i made a commitment on a saturday night to put on my suit and to go down to

01:02:18.640 a san francisco meat market and put in some reps to approach women and i would go to the place the

01:02:26.640 bar and i'd get my drink and i'd get another drink and maybe i'd get a third drink and i would leave

01:02:32.560 without talking to anybody and i felt so embarrassed and ashamed that i left without approaching even though

01:02:42.880 there were clearly there were usually women there that i felt attracted to and wanted to talk to

01:02:48.960 but i made this commitment to do it and so i had the next week i did it and i didn't talk to anybody

01:02:54.320 and i left feeling ashamed and the third week i did it and i didn't talk to anybody i left feeling

01:02:58.080 ashamed i think i had to do it like seven or eight weeks in a row without talking to a single woman in

01:03:03.920 my suit you know all dressed up we're probably wondering what is this guy doing who knows you know maybe

01:03:09.840 who knows what they were thinking um and then i i i was there this the eighth time and i was probably

01:03:17.520 on my second drink and like thinking looking at the door and being like oh man it's gonna happen again

01:03:22.560 and i saw this woman that i was attracted to and in that moment i realized that if i were to leave

01:03:32.320 again without speaking to this woman i knew exactly how i was going to feel i was going to feel like a

01:03:37.440 schmuck i was going to feel like a coward i was going to feel lonely i was going to feel hopeless

01:03:43.040 that i was never going to meet a woman i knew that with 100 conviction because that had been

01:03:50.080 my emotional response for the last seven times in a row and so i looked at this woman and i thought to

01:03:55.920 myself no matter what comes out of that woman's mouth it can't possibly hurt me more than it's going

01:04:01.520 to feel if i leave here without talking to her and i went up and talked to her and i said something

01:04:07.200 along the lines of hey i just want to let you know that if i left here without talking to you i would

01:04:11.520 feel like a real schmuck which was true and i think we talked for like five minutes and i don't even

01:04:17.600 remember she probably had a boyfriend i don't think i i definitely didn't go home with her but um that

01:04:22.480 was the beginning of getting over the approach anxiety like i had to be more afraid i had to feel the

01:04:30.960 pain of not doing it more acutely than the fear of the pain of approaching that woman and it was

01:04:37.120 only when that calculus shifted that the woman was safer on some level than getting what i'd already

01:04:43.360 gotten by going home alone what do you mean she was safer on some level because i knew that leaving

01:04:49.200 without speaking to a woman was painful it would make me feel ashamed it would make me feel cowardly

01:04:56.080 it would make me feel oh oh sorry i i thought that's not safe she would feel safer as no she

01:05:01.120 does like as an alternative between going home to you but that she herself physically would feel

01:05:05.760 safer oh no no no the the prospect was safer in my own subjective consciousness right i got you okay

01:05:12.880 so did you ever get to a point where it became easy for you to approach women yeah yeah you know it's

01:05:17.280 it's never entirely without a little bit of anxiety and one of the thing i i teach people is that the

01:05:23.280 physiological you know state of anxiety is actually indistinguishable from the physiological state of

01:05:32.560 excitement they're the exact same somatic response just interpreted differently by your mind when you

01:05:39.840 have that response but you think things are going to go badly you're anxious if you have that response

01:05:43.280 you think things are going to go well you're excited and so you can kind of do this mental judo and

01:05:49.040 reframe that interpretation of your somatic response as excitement and that's probably for

01:05:53.520 the best that there's a little bit there if you didn't have that i mean if if there was no anxiety or

01:06:00.880 excitement whatsoever i don't think men would approach women either i agree i got a question here uh

01:06:08.480 kind of shifting gears once again you had this great video and it's there's two things you said

01:06:15.280 why it's important to disappoint women sure and then also how and perhaps these were two separate

01:06:21.680 ones how do women punish the men that they like um so maybe let's start with the first one so why is

01:06:28.320 it important to disappoint women i i do that all the time i'm i'm quite adept intentionally okay

01:06:35.280 intentionally sometimes unintentionally intentionally yeah yeah okay why is it important because

01:06:40.560 eventually when you find yourself fortunate enough to be in a relationship with a woman that you like

01:06:45.760 and who also really likes you back when a woman really likes a guy she wants everything about that

01:06:52.160 guy like she wants the good she also wants the bad like women are kind of weird like that they just

01:06:57.440 want the whole thing give me it's like that lady gaga give me your sickness give me your evil it's like

01:07:03.280 they want to experience the guy completely and so they'll want more of your attention they'll want more of

01:07:09.600 your time they'll want more of your emotional energy and if you just say yes that woman will very

01:07:16.880 quickly become the center of your universe and that's not where a woman should be a woman like

01:07:24.160 the center of a man's universe should be his overarching mission or his purpose in life and the woman

01:07:29.120 ideally is helping him achieve that because that's also in her best interest as well because she can be

01:07:33.760 with that guy as he's victorious in his purpose so learning to disappoint women is important because

01:07:42.400 if you allow a woman to become the center of your life you tend to lose your life and then you tend to

01:07:47.120 lose the woman anyway now if you say i can't i'd love to see you sweetie but i can't tonight and she

01:07:54.240 starts to cry and you know i'm gonna miss you like and a guy feels guilty at seeing that man that woman's tears

01:08:01.760 at disappointing that woman he might he might like say okay sweetie i guess just this one so

01:08:09.040 so you know and it's that slippery slope to concession of your friends concession of your hobbies

01:08:15.600 concession of your purpose so it's just a feeling she's not gonna die guys like in 15 minutes she

01:08:24.560 won't even be feeling that anymore so let her feel you also don't have to change a woman's feelings

01:08:29.600 that's something that a lot of guys don't get because especially negative emotionality a woman

01:08:35.600 makes men uncomfortable and so they want to like fix the problems so they don't have to deal with

01:08:40.160 the discomfort of experiencing a woman's negative emotions but you don't have to do anything just

01:08:43.840 let her feel she'll get over it right madison do you think yeah right man you'll get over it in at

01:08:52.720 least a day you said that uh women feel unsafe when a man never says no yeah

01:09:04.640 one of the one of the things that seems kind of paradoxical is sometimes a woman will go and up to

01:09:12.480 like the guy in the bar with the tattoos and the facial scars and the leather jackets because he's safe

01:09:20.720 now a lot of guys are looking at that guy that guy does not look safe at all to me he looks really

01:09:26.560 risky and dangerous well yeah but on the other hand he's safe because you think that about him

01:09:33.680 no one's gonna fuck with that guy like for a lot of women it's safer it's safest with the most dangerous

01:09:40.320 guy in the room because no other guys are gonna mess with that guy do you understand that guy might mess

01:09:44.560 with her but no other guys are gonna mess with him do you understand so oh a guy who can't say no or

01:09:53.520 hold the line with a woman and what's a woman really gonna do like how can she trust that he's gonna be

01:09:59.840 able to hold the line with a guy so i think when women do these tests consciously or unconsciously to

01:10:07.360 men they're testing whether they're safe because if they can't actually say no and hold the line with

01:10:13.360 them they're gonna despair of his ability to do that with a real threat out in the world and so

01:10:18.960 that guy's not safe and that's that feeling of unsafety will cause her to test further if she's

01:10:25.520 still attracted which will cause her to be even more squirrely potentially and the guy probably is

01:10:30.560 gonna blow it and that relationship isn't gonna go anywhere fast does that make sense brian yes yeah

01:10:36.160 yeah and uh you said what or one of the previous questions i had was how do women punish men they

01:10:45.040 like punish the men they like well punishing actually takes time it takes investment it takes effort

01:10:56.720 you're not gonna if you don't actually really care about keeping a relationship around you actually don't

01:11:02.160 want to punish you just want to be like hey no problem absolutely no harm no foul let's just go

01:11:06.960 our separate ways like punishment on some level is a corrective action in the service of making the

01:11:12.640 relationship better so it requires some degree of emotional investment you're not going to go around

01:11:17.600 trying to correct people that you don't care about so the other thing is i actually made that episode

01:11:25.760 when i found out about uh tom brady's divorce and ostensibly who knows the real story but ostensibly

01:11:33.440 his wife was unhappy that he decided to not retire and to play another year in the nfl and when he

01:11:43.200 decided to go back to the buccaneers she divorced him that's the story anyway that i understand and you

01:11:49.760 would think that on some level she is punishing tom brady for his decision to go back to the nfl

01:11:54.080 and she's only doing that because he's tom brady like if she didn't actually care about that man

01:12:03.680 she wouldn't have like tried to incentivize him to spend more time with her which is kind of what

01:12:11.600 her argument was is that you've spent all these years with football now spend some time with the

01:12:16.080 family like if she didn't really want that guy around i don't think she'd have any problems with

01:12:21.520 him playing football you know what i'm saying yeah you got something what you got yeah i got bro i

01:12:27.280 got a few okay i got some good ones so one um one pattern that i've noticed in the world is that uh

01:12:34.480 women who do not have a strong father presence in their lives or they didn't receive a lot of love

01:12:39.680 from their dad growing up these with these women often uh end up presenting promiscuous lifestyles in

01:12:47.840 their 20s and 30s and so on um compared to women who receive like a lot of attention and love from

01:12:53.760 their dads it's less often that they will be very promiscuous as they grow older i'm curious like what

01:12:58.800 do you what do you think the connection is there is that reflected in data or studies that have been

01:13:04.320 shown i'm sure they they they would be i can't think of a study off the top of my head yeah but it's

01:13:09.520 you know we talk about it just socially as daddy issues right yeah yeah um i think that without

01:13:16.720 the validating stabilizing presence of a masculine figure in a girl's life she often can seek for

01:13:22.480 validation through her sexuality when she's a little bit older okay and it works yeah like if a woman

01:13:30.880 parades her body and throw sex at guys guys will respond positively which actually creates a vicious

01:13:37.600 cycle for those women because it does work in the short term at the very least um this is going to

01:13:45.200 sound kind of strange but i do remember this one study that i read a long time ago that there's actually

01:13:51.920 a pretty high incidence rates of incest between long lost siblings so let's say siblings were

01:14:01.920 it's true as i understand it like siblings who are separated at a very young age you don't even know

01:14:06.960 know that they exist when they're reunited in their adulthood they feel their love and affection for

01:14:13.760 each other but the way a normal healthy adults kind of express love and affection is often sexual

01:14:20.160 when they were younger they wouldn't do that do you understand and so they often end up in these

01:14:24.240 sexualized relationships because that's part of the a kind of a healthy adult response

01:14:31.680 of love in a heterosexual relationship so that could be part of what you're talking about is that

01:14:40.640 they didn't get a chance to feel this love or it was love in a very dysfunctional way when they're

01:14:45.520 younger so they've kind of gone their whole lives craving it and then and it becomes inappropriately

01:14:51.600 sexualized as an adult because that's what adults do when they love somebody in a heterosexual dynamic

01:14:57.440 i've noticed a lot of a lot of those women will tend to go for guys that treat them quite poorly

01:15:03.120 sure and they will opt for those relationships as opposed to relationships with healthy stable men who

01:15:09.120 really stable men are boring no no but like that this is the thing though is i've noticed like

01:15:13.520 like i can think of a few girls in particular where not just like nice guys not just like boring nice

01:15:20.960 guys but like good dudes who are attractive will pursue these girls but it almost seems like something

01:15:26.240 about the stability of the relationship almost like repels them like it seems like they're craving

01:15:30.720 being treated poorly by guys yeah yeah okay so we all why is that well we all these love templates

01:15:37.440 that exist in our mind that are based on observing the relationships of our primary caregivers okay and

01:15:45.120 it's for better for worse like the child is not in a position to judge whether this dynamic that

01:15:50.480 they're observing is healthy or unhealthy or functional or dysfunctional or toxic or loving they just

01:15:56.240 take it in yeah now what can happen later on in life i don't know how exactly this works but

01:16:01.920 people have this like radar where they can potentially walk into a room and say oh oh that's

01:16:09.520 the one that's the one that i can recreate this dynamic with there are some sort of signs that give

01:16:15.600 off the fact that it's not that you feel dysfunctional it's not that you feel toxic it's that you feel familiar

01:16:22.400 you feel familiar you remind me and you're activating this

01:16:28.560 this thing inside of me that has been trained to recognize love in this way okay i i had something

01:16:37.760 along these lines myself in the sense of i grew up in a very chaotic family and when i was in my

01:16:43.120 early 20s i got involved with all kinds of stupendously uh dysfunctional women but i was

01:16:48.720 dysfunctional myself to a certain degree right and what i would discover is that i kind of had this

01:16:55.680 terrible decision i had to make there were the women that i was authentically attracted to who

01:17:00.000 were terrible for me and then they're the women who were good for me and could have stable long-term

01:17:05.680 relationships i had felt nothing for like i was like they're good i guess you know she's a really nice

01:17:11.760 girl but i don't know and i'd always go back to the dumpster fire on some level and i did that until

01:17:18.800 i sufficiently healed my own inner wounding that was related to the love template that was associated

01:17:25.680 with that and for a while that meant that i had to actively resist spending time and dating women that

01:17:33.360 i felt that passionate attraction to and i had to a kind of abide in relationships for a while that

01:17:39.840 felt a little boring and unemotional and as i continued to do that and as i continued to heal

01:17:46.240 my attraction organically changed and now i'm very attracted to stable high functioning women and when

01:17:54.320 i see that it's almost like an addiction you know i used to i used to have a number of addictions and

01:18:00.960 thank god i don't have them anymore but every once in a while there's that craving you know that pops up

01:18:05.520 and sometimes i'll walk into her and i'll see that girl i'm like oh oh there it is and it's like oh

01:18:10.480 nope bad orion we we don't want to go down and open that door again it gets easier and easier to um

01:18:15.840 resist is it like a look like she's just blasted in tattoos for some guys that's what it is okay um

01:18:22.000 that wasn't for me not for you no what were the tells for you yeah um

01:18:26.480 i liked women who i was an actor for a long time so i did a lot of actresses who had like there was

01:18:40.480 something in their eyes they had very emotive eyes like they could change their emotional expression

01:18:48.720 very quickly and also very clearly for a long time i was kind of an emotional idiot

01:18:55.760 and so i was kind of attracted to these women in part because i could like read their emotions

01:19:00.080 because they could telegraph them so well and so obviously and so intensely i was like oh i get it

01:19:06.160 you're feeling happy right now or you're feeling annoyed because they were a little bit they had the

01:19:11.920 emotionality turned up to 11 a little bit which probably was off-putting to other guys but i was like

01:19:16.560 oh i can hear you now that's nice um so there was something in like their emotional expressivity

01:19:23.840 in their eyes and in their face that led me think oh she's gonna be a roller coaster she's gonna be

01:19:28.960 fun people ride roller coasters for fun did you get better over time as you healed your inner wounding

01:19:34.880 did you get better over time at reading women's emotions oh yeah and then find that you didn't need

01:19:40.160 that over expressiveness sure yeah absolutely interesting yeah your attraction can change it but it

01:19:46.400 can also take years nice it's not something that changes overnight i got a video for us oh to

01:19:53.040 react to this went viral uh about three or four weeks ago uh nick

01:20:01.440 that matt walsh responded to it so nick if you can play that my twitter mutual right there echo

01:20:06.560 what up echo

01:20:07.280 yeah full screen please if you are a boy who has ever been dumped by your girlfriend for seemingly

01:20:15.760 no apparent reason and you're looking for answers this is what happened okay this is you guys you

01:20:21.520 guys are in a happy relationship and now all of a sudden you have one simple fixable problem for this

01:20:29.280 example we're going to use no good morning text and your girlfriend who loves you she's really happy with

01:20:33.200 you she comes to you and she tells you she's like hey do you think we could start doing good morning

01:20:37.600 texts like it mean a lot to me if you text me good morning so you her loving boyfriend agree to give

01:20:42.160 her good morning texts but something happened and for whatever reason you stopped giving her good

01:20:46.400 morning text so now we have a bigger problem she now thinks that you don't care enough about her to

01:20:53.920 send her good morning texts even though she asked but she's gonna be like you know what this is still kind

01:20:57.600 of a small problem i'm just gonna remind him she reminds you you're like oh my gosh that's right

01:21:04.160 i did agree to that okay i will text you good morning unfortunately though you didn't follow

01:21:08.800 through again now we have confirmed that you do not care enough to text her good morning even though

01:21:13.760 this is a simple fixable problem this is now a big problem so now your girlfriend who has never

01:21:19.520 picked fights before in her life starts picking a bunch of little fights about all these different things

01:21:24.160 because she believes that you do not care enough through all of these picking fights with you

01:21:29.680 though she still loves you and likes you enough to want to be with you even though you guys have all

01:21:34.640 these little problems now until one day these become unattractive to her she's gonna realize that all of

01:21:42.720 these little things that you do that remind her that you don't care about her enough are unattractive

01:21:49.520 and so now the problem is not these things it's not even that you don't care enough it's not even

01:21:55.440 that she never got good morning texts it's that she literally does not like you anymore does not like

01:22:02.400 you now unfortunately she has to break up with you and then you're going to ask her why and she's

01:22:07.440 going to list out all the reasons why she has to break up with you and you are going to say no you

01:22:14.000 should not break up with me because of those reasons because from now on i am going to do all of these

01:22:18.800 things and you will never have to worry about me never doing these things again because i'm going

01:22:22.560 to do them every single day but remember it doesn't even matter if you were to do all of these things

01:22:27.200 anymore because the problem now is that she's unattracted to you and just simply does not like you

01:22:32.000 anymore and now she's going to go move on with her life and you're going to go and tell your friends

01:22:35.760 that you got dumped by absolutely no reason and that you guys all hate her and that she's crazy for

01:22:41.680 dumping you over something so simple but in reality she never dumped you at all this was a slow moving

01:22:47.680 process that eventually led to the final reason and you weren't dumped you probably actively chose

01:22:52.960 not to give her what she said she needed and now you guys you guys aren't together anymore sorry

01:23:00.320 so what's uh your thoughts your reaction to that video women are complicated aren't they yeah um so

01:23:08.640 i i think there's probably some truth to it from like i think that woman is describing a

01:23:14.000 emotional progression that occurs in women like i think she's speaking about a subjectively truthful

01:23:22.240 experience that women can go through the problem was that the guy agreed to do something he didn't

01:23:30.240 fucking want to do like i've never sent a good morning text in my life i never intended to do it i

01:23:35.840 have no interest in doing it i'm not actually a big texter i'm going to spend as little time as

01:23:39.040 possible on my phone interesting the problem was not that he didn't care about the woman i mean who

01:23:44.720 the fuck knows but that's where i'm going the problem is he didn't care about that behavior

01:23:48.400 he didn't wanted to actually do it he didn't he wanted to do it just because she wanted to do it

01:23:54.080 or she cared enough to try to avoid the problem of not doing it do you understand he didn't actually

01:23:59.760 feel intrinsically motivated to send a good morning text to his girlfriend so if i were to advise men

01:24:05.440 out there if a woman comes to you and says hey sweetie could you do this like think about it do

01:24:10.720 you actually want to do that if you don't say no i don't really want to do that and you avoid that

01:24:18.080 entire cascade of problems she might be huffy and upset for a little bit but it doesn't get to that

01:24:24.960 dire state that this woman was describing yeah the reason why he he was flaky about it's like it was a

01:24:31.280 new year's resolution it was something that he felt that he should do because his girlfriend wanted

01:24:35.520 him to do it not because it was coming out of him as from his own internal locus of control i see and

01:24:42.640 so of course he was going to be inconsistent and flaky about it he didn't really want to do it

01:24:46.720 you ever done any good morning do you do the good morning text do you do that yeah but i do it

01:24:52.320 i do it by choice because i like that's fine i'm not i'm with you i'm not i don't like what i've

01:24:58.320 gotten his flowers like some girls that i've dated in the past why don't you buy me flowers

01:25:01.680 i was like i don't like buying women flowers but so but other but other guys like it's like maybe

01:25:07.120 they do maybe they don't maybe they feel like they're doing it just because they feel like they

01:25:10.240 have to in order to not have her be upset or in order to get laid or maybe they authentically like

01:25:15.280 to buy women flowers if that's that important to you sure absolutely there's the door yeah or

01:25:21.120 there's the door yeah it is well kind of in the sense of like is is good morning texts enough to

01:25:26.240 walk away from a guy that you're still attracted to that there are no significant problems in no

01:25:32.320 it's not right that would be psychotic madison are you are you a good morning text person do you you

01:25:38.640 you're in a relationship yeah um yeah yeah does he do the good morning text now did you ask him

01:25:45.520 no no i usually like wake up a little later so he just started doing it yeah okay he buys flowers

01:25:52.560 building maybe it's a generational thing it could be i didn't i wasn't raised on texts yeah because

01:25:57.280 i mean i'm i'm 34 and uh you know we started getting cell phones around last year of high school

01:26:05.680 smart phones came out a few years later but wasn't i was never fan never fan of the good morning text

01:26:11.280 you know uh should we let's do let's get into it the 50 shades of great what you you want to

01:26:16.400 bro don't spoil it don't spoil it bro uh so i got i got i got i have two two questions i am intent

01:26:22.480 upon asking by the end of the show if we have time also for all my followers that are listening

01:26:27.680 my apologies to you guys if i didn't get to your question i got like over 100 questions we only have

01:26:31.440 so much time wow what a great response yeah yeah pretty sweet um people wanted to hear what you had to

01:26:36.960 say um what'd you say i'm honored uh so one of the things we'll jump right into it one of the things

01:26:44.880 that i am fascinated by are the uh the the secret and darker interests of the female psyche and uh

01:26:53.840 one of one of the most interesting phenomenons i think of the past couple of decades in pop culture

01:26:58.640 is how insanely popular the 50 shades of gray novel and movie were uh both were among the fastest

01:27:06.960 selling of all time i mean women were just absolutely all over it and for anybody who's

01:27:11.280 listening who's unaware 50 shades of gray it's a fictional story about a woman who gets into a

01:27:16.720 relationship with this like a billionaire guy who's into bdsm and you know sex dungeons and all that

01:27:22.480 kind of stuff and women just absolutely loved it i mean they loved it um what what do you think the

01:27:30.880 popularity of those stories speaks to within the female psyche i think there's a couple of things to that

01:27:38.640 first of all is that people always sort of want the what they don't yet have or the opposite of what

01:27:47.440 they they got so for example many many years ago i dated a woman who went on to become a dominatrix in

01:27:54.560 a dungeon in new york city and we were still in touch and she would tell me some of her experiences

01:27:59.360 and these were high-powered professional men who were worth millions of dollars who would pay her

01:28:09.520 hundreds of dollars an hour to step on them to berate them to do all kinds of other things that

01:28:17.680 we don't necessarily have to get into but to kind of like humiliate these guys why because they had in

01:28:23.840 their professional and personal lives become so powerful that

01:28:30.480 there was no balance to their experience anymore they had to pay somebody to arbitrarily create the

01:28:38.160 word no for them do you understand so there's a lot of women out there who are the boss bitch who

01:28:47.280 are actually doing very well in the real world they actually have good careers they're out earning

01:28:52.160 men who are childless in their cohort in major metropolitan markets they are empowered they

01:29:00.640 are confident they are self-sufficient so what are they not getting what's the shadow to that

01:29:08.640 and i think it's being controlled i think it's being helpless i mean what's the opposite of being

01:29:14.960 power disempowered powerless so i think that's one part of it is the the sexuality that exists in

01:29:24.720 the society behind closed doors is often the shadow of the roles that those genders play out in public

01:29:32.800 okay does that make sense mm-hmm there's another way that we can kind of approach it which is that

01:29:39.200 there's kind of masculine feminine love and sexuality there are two words that we can take

01:29:46.480 from greek there's arrows from which we get erotic and there's agape which we don't really use anymore

01:29:51.920 but it's an excellent word arrows or erotic love is very masculine it's about penetration it's about

01:30:00.000 conquering it's about overcoming and like dominating right agape love is like being raptured it's like

01:30:09.920 total and complete surrender you can even have a religious or a spiritual context to this i've had it

01:30:17.920 i've heard it said that we're all feminine in the relation to god in the sense that we're always

01:30:24.320 receiving and he is potentially penetrating us do you understand so it's like it's not necessarily about

01:30:28.880 men and women it's about masculinity and femininity and there's different attributes to that right

01:30:33.280 and there is a rapturous pleasure to complete abandon and surrender and i know a lot of women who will

01:30:43.120 admit that like being left in a quivering puddle is a successful and enjoyable sexual experience

01:30:51.200 and one of the ways that they can get there is when a man is more assertive and dominating

01:30:56.000 it's tricky you can't just like go into a random encounter assuming that that's what the woman is

01:31:00.880 looking for but it can be negotiated not through like explicit consent and contracts but kind of with

01:31:06.800 awareness and intuition does that make sense yeah yeah it does it does i this is something i've been

01:31:13.840 curious about because like one of the things that one of the things that very few women are uh bold enough

01:31:20.640 to admit but that applies to a lot of women for example is like an interest i think i think the

01:31:26.320 interest in forceful domination from a masculine presence in the bedroom is like pretty across the

01:31:31.600 board it applies to almost all women um if not all women and like a lot of women you know they they

01:31:37.760 won't admit to it publicly necessarily but like they have interest in being choked or spanked by a man

01:31:43.360 that they trust so on and so forth and it's like i guess like i understand intuitively why that is

01:31:49.520 i i can kind of intuitively understand why women would be drawn towards like a 50 shades of gray

01:31:55.520 and it's not just like the ceos and boss babes it's like your normal everyday you know woman who's just

01:32:01.040 like a suburban mom or whatever like all types were attracted to it but i'd never heard it articulated

01:32:05.840 like that before it's also not a simple thing to say who's in charge in a dominant submissive dynamic

01:32:14.240 you could make the argument that the submissive is in charge because the submissive is so safe

01:32:21.040 and is controlling the experiment experience to such an extent that he or she can

01:32:28.400 allow her him or herself to experience

01:32:31.600 being subjected to a greater power than themselves does that make sense yeah like that person might

01:32:38.400 actually be controlling the person who's controlling them ostensibly this is why all of these historical

01:32:44.480 arguments about the the dominance of men needs to be nuanced and approached there is plenty of men who

01:32:53.360 have been controlled but or influenced behind the scenes by their women right where it was safer

01:33:01.440 and uh more protected for them to do so so the idea that just because the person who's big and

01:33:08.480 aggressive and assertive or dominant is the one in charge is not right yeah well in those stories

01:33:13.280 for example i'm pretty sure the female character always had like a safe word to stop the situation

01:33:17.840 of course so she was you could make the argument she was in control so to speak sure yeah i have one

01:33:23.680 other question i don't know if yeah yeah go for it so one one thing um one thing there's been a lot of

01:33:29.280 discussion in the the manosphere the red pill sphere so on and so forth about is the idea of female

01:33:35.360 promiscuity and how uh you know as a woman racks up a body count so to speak that makes her less suitable

01:33:41.680 for a relationship and there's a myriad of reasons why that would be the case but

01:33:46.240 in particular one one area of focus that people will speak about is how it can decrease a woman's

01:33:51.760 ability to pair bond with partners and i was curious that there were a lot of questions that i got about this

01:33:56.880 does clinical data or studies or anything like that show a difference in terms of how

01:34:02.560 promiscuity can negatively affect men versus women uh i've read studies that show that promiscuity can

01:34:09.840 negatively affect both men and women for long-term relationships uh is that technically through the

01:34:17.520 mechanism of pair bonding which is i think chemical and related to oxytocin and we know that oxytocin gets

01:34:24.080 released in different contexts for men and women so that is gendered i think it's more just that

01:34:28.960 if what you're practicing is short-term relationships you're going to get better at short-term relationships

01:34:34.800 and the more time you spend practicing and getting better at church and relationships the less time

01:34:38.960 you're getting you're practicing and getting better at long-term relationships and they're totally

01:34:42.800 fucking different yeah like what is successful for a short-term relationship is almost antithetical for

01:34:48.000 what is successful in a long-term relationship this is why i say for guys it depends on your

01:34:53.760 dating goals if you're just looking to to have fun and to meet some women and have short-term

01:34:59.680 sexual relationships with you want to err on the side of being too bold like boldness will work it

01:35:04.800 will make it happen yeah but if you're looking for a wife if you're looking for a long-term commitment

01:35:09.040 actually err on the side of being too boring a lot of guys fuck this up and they they still want to

01:35:14.480 take the woman out on the hot air balloon rides and the michelin star restaurants but unless you're

01:35:18.640 doing that on the regular you shouldn't do that with the woman that you're vetting for a long-term

01:35:22.080 relationship like what are you usually doing on a wednesday night invite her to do that be boring

01:35:29.040 don't hide who you really are if you don't send good morning texts like let her know that in the

01:35:34.000 first week so that she knows what she's getting into and she can make the decision as to whether or

01:35:38.080 not that's really a deal breaker for her you understand yeah but if you want short-term

01:35:41.920 relationships absolutely be bold cultivate a fantasy go big okay depends on your goals okay

01:35:50.640 got it got it but pair bonding does affect both both men and and women so it's it's wrong to think that

01:35:58.400 men can have indefinite promiscuous sex without having that impact their emotional reality and their

01:36:08.160 relationships with women do you think it has more of a negative effect on women compared to men or

01:36:13.200 vice versa i think men can do it more than like be promiscuous without negative consequence than women

01:36:22.000 but over a long enough timeline it will catch up with men as well psychologically yeah yeah yeah have you

01:36:28.400 seen that present in your practice sure yeah yeah i've worked with a number of guys who

01:36:33.040 men they were they were charming they're attractive they're young they would go out with their friends

01:36:40.320 every night they were bringing women back home they must have run through half the city you know what

01:36:44.320 i'm saying and one thing is that's actually hard to give up it's just sort of like what we're talking

01:36:50.000 about with the really hot women who were hot since they were 15 you know what i'm saying and they were

01:36:55.280 attracting attention from all the other guys in high school they didn't have to develop other sides of

01:36:59.520 themselves like it's very hard for a guy who can effortlessly enjoy option sexual optionality with

01:37:06.320 women to like try to be a loyal consistent partner because it's so sex is so rewarding for guys yeah

01:37:15.680 it's hard to give up i spoke to a guy uh he told me that he had slept with 150 women and he was just

01:37:22.240 incapable anymore of forming an emotional connection to a woman through sex which is pretty interesting

01:37:28.960 well another thing i talk about is that there's big differences between male and female sexuality

01:37:35.360 let's leave the body count of the promiscuity thing away but like it's act we see we often hear stories

01:37:42.160 about like sexless marriages or long-term relationships and we assume that it's always

01:37:45.920 the woman's fault who who like becomes frigid or isn't interested anymore and that is often the case

01:37:50.720 but it's definitely not always the case sometimes guys can lose their sexual attraction to their wives not

01:37:57.600 because they get old or they gain a bunch of weight or they stop putting effort into their appearance

01:38:03.520 but because they love them what do you mean by that they call this the madonna horror complex in

01:38:09.760 psychology it's like it's actually hard to take somebody that you love not just the body like the person

01:38:17.040 inside the body that you love and cherish and care for and bend her over and fuck her hard

01:38:23.120 it's really hard to do that it's really hard to do that to the mother of your children

01:38:29.920 and your sacred wife is you understand it can be so what i'm saying is that like for guys they they

01:38:36.560 kind of have to have this switch in their mind where sometimes they have to be able to just objectify a

01:38:42.960 woman in order to bend her over and give it to her real good like they have to be able to turn off the

01:38:48.960 she's a whole person and i love everything about her and i'm ready to do something really

01:38:55.120 nasty and disrespectful to this woman it's like that's a nice ass it's like i'd love to see that

01:39:00.000 over you know you guys need to be able to turn that on and off and when they can't turn it off

01:39:04.320 they lose their sexual arousal is there anything uh women in those long-term relationships can do to

01:39:09.920 help men get in that mental state i mean they can they can try to bring back some of the

01:39:19.280 nastiness a little bit it's like one of the things that i talk about on my channel about

01:39:24.240 how a woman can get a man is to be the nastiest sluttiest version of herself possible with the

01:39:30.560 man she wants to have a relationship with that got a lot of pushback in some respects i'm sure one

01:39:37.600 thing i'll say is sort of like by definition a woman has to be she has to be the nastiest

01:39:44.000 sluttiest version of herself with somebody that's how superlatives work some man is benefiting from

01:39:48.800 that side of herself why not have that be your husband why not have that be the man that you

01:39:53.200 want to be your husband do you understand yeah otherwise that's even sluttier than what i'm

01:39:58.560 recommending is that you are that side of yourself with somebody you don't even want a long-term

01:40:02.240 relationship with wasn't this sort of an old saying like lady in the streets freak in the sheets

01:40:07.040 sure you know this is sort of a concept that's been women have to be able to turn it on and off

01:40:10.320 too maybe there's a switch in their minds yeah don't you think though that if a woman is looking

01:40:15.920 for marriage and she's just being as freaky and nasty as possible with you know whatever guy she's

01:40:22.080 seeing that she's hoping that she can lock down that that could actually be counterproductive towards

01:40:27.760 her goals of getting commitment from a man if for example let's say she's dating a guy who actually

01:40:33.920 is not interested in marriage and she hears your advice and she's like okay if i'm the

01:40:39.360 sluttiest nastiest version of myself possible for this guy maybe he'll want to lock me down he doesn't

01:40:43.520 want to he breaks up with her or she breaks up with him time goes on then she finds another guy

01:40:49.200 who she does want to marry and then he finds out about that last relationship and all the things that

01:40:53.280 she did with him yeah she's got to do more with that guy but then that could create a vicious cycle

01:40:58.080 where it's like like that could be counterproductive well i respond to this in a in a forthcoming

01:41:02.560 episode it's like first of all the nastiest latest version of yourself doesn't mean sex

01:41:07.520 i didn't say that like if all you've ever done is hold a boy's hand there's a way of holding a boy's

01:41:12.480 hand and there's a way of holding a boy's hand you know what i'm saying yeah so this is titrated to

01:41:17.200 your sexual experience and your sexual history one two is one of i made an episode about this which

01:41:27.360 is called the cost of winning overpaying is the cost of winning so if you want to win you have to be

01:41:35.200 willing to pay more or give more than anybody else will so life is like an auction house it goes to

01:41:42.640 whoever bids the most and that also means that no one else thought that that was worth as much as

01:41:48.640 you did so you overpaid but overpaying is the price of winning you understand so a woman has to be

01:41:54.720 willing to give more to beat out her intersexual competition for that man now in some probably

01:42:00.640 traditional or religious context there's going to be the no sex prior to marriage fine there's still

01:42:06.640 ways around that like i did a consultation with a guy from the country of georgia where it's a

01:42:12.480 it's like 98 christian and it is uh it has a very high premium on female virginity in the sense of

01:42:21.600 like having their hymen intact but those women he told me do all kinds of other sexual behaviors so

01:42:28.640 it's like virginity and chasteness aren't quite the same thing you know what i'm saying like there are

01:42:34.240 ways that you can capture a man's attention if you want to have a relationship with that person now your

01:42:41.200 rebuttal about well what if she does these things to a man that doesn't really want a relationship

01:42:45.520 with well that's part of discernment that we were talking about earlier is women kind of have to

01:42:49.520 learn how to become experts in men to know who to pick one two so many of them are so bad at that

01:42:55.200 they are they're really really bad terrible at it and two like a woman can potentially turn that guy

01:43:05.440 around like if you give a man a brain dangerous advice sexual experience something that he can't

01:43:12.320 get anywhere else he might be like yeah whatever and then he's gonna have trouble finding that so

01:43:17.920 sometimes i talk about like getting a man there's there's acts to it the first act often is up to the

01:43:25.360 takeaway which is like hey we've been doing this for a while you we've been dating you know who i am

01:43:30.080 you know what i like are you interested in a relationship and if the guy says you know i really like

01:43:34.080 you but i'm not in a place to commit to anybody that doesn't mean that the play is over that's

01:43:39.040 just the end of act one sometimes a guy has to miss a woman to come back and commit to her that's often

01:43:45.600 the case so if you provide an experience that is very difficult to replicate otherwise that is you

01:43:54.240 doing something that your competition obviously is not willing to do one final thing and then i'll see

01:43:58.720 what your thoughts are is that yes it's kind of a slippery slope so if she is this version of

01:44:05.200 herself with that guy doesn't commit to her she has to be at least that nasty and slutty with the guy

01:44:10.400 the next guy right the issue is that between holding hands and like crazy porn star sex there is a

01:44:18.640 long distance between those two things like that could take dozens or hundreds of experiences you

01:44:28.400 know what i'm saying right so if that happens it's not that my advice is bad the advice is good it's that

01:44:35.920 that woman is consistently choosing the wrong men over and over and over again to do this with right

01:44:41.520 does that make sense yeah it does i mean you're you your argument about you know a person or a woman

01:44:48.480 providing an experience that can't be replicated by somebody else and them investing everything

01:44:53.200 they have into it so that they're the best possible option for that person totally makes sense one i

01:45:00.160 guess one follow-up question that i would have is so there's a lot of young women that are following me

01:45:04.960 that are and this is in line with the theme of a lot of my questions throughout the show what'd you

01:45:09.760 say what a heartbreaker well they you know they're following a christian guy who's giving christian

01:45:14.320 dating advice and they're looking for they want to be competitive in the christian dating marketplace

01:45:19.760 especially when it pertains to marriage because a lot of young women out there they want to find

01:45:23.200 that like top 10 guy sure they all do whether they're christian or not yeah and and they're like

01:45:28.000 competing with all of the other women that want it but christian women are in an interesting position

01:45:32.880 because a lot of them will not do anything sexual before marriage yes and so they're like anything

01:45:39.600 not like not anything well you know they they are pursuing chastity generally speaking some of them

01:45:44.800 will do sexual stuff but like there's a lot of them out there that are like okay like i don't want to

01:45:48.400 have sex before marriage this is something this is a commitment that i want to stick to a lot of

01:45:52.880 them feel pressured because their competition are women who will do sexual things before marriage that

01:45:59.040 are trying to capture the guys that they want right but these women who don't want to do anything

01:46:04.400 sexual before marriage because of religious convictions they're like okay how can i be as

01:46:08.640 competitive as possible with the girls out there that are sluts and that are giving it up to these

01:46:12.800 guys so on and so forth and it's like you know you made the argument okay well girls won't have sex

01:46:18.240 but they'll do other things but what would you say to the women that don't even want to do other

01:46:22.400 things but still want to be competitive for those high value men that's a great question um

01:46:26.720 um i think it's important to understand that there's a difference between sexuality and sensuality

01:46:34.080 and a lot actually of what guys are seeking after in a sexual encounter is sensual

01:46:41.600 it could be a soft touch it could be a a word or a phrase that has spoken to him in admiration

01:46:52.560 it could be a look in her eyes that she believes that this guy is just

01:46:59.840 her heart's content kind of a thing those are very difficult to get in a purely sexual interaction

01:47:11.760 does that make sense yeah and those things that i just described i think play more to a guy's

01:47:18.720 emotions for a long-term commitment i think you know best practices you kind of want to do both

01:47:26.640 but if you're not interested in doing the sexuality for religious convictions you can absolutely

01:47:34.400 provide sensuality that's completely devoid of sexual arousal where could women learn more about

01:47:41.040 how to cultivate that no i don't know i think it used to be something that was

01:47:44.800 like mothers or grandmothers used to teach their daughters potentially but i don't know if that

01:47:50.240 happens anymore and we used to be a proper country maybe you got to watch like old movies if you watch

01:47:55.200 old black and white movies women will still like look at the men in that way in the movies you know what

01:47:59.760 i'm saying yeah yeah that's the best i can do on top of my head it's like a look it's like a look

01:48:05.680 i can't it's like it's like it's like a sultry look the look the look like you said eye contact

01:48:14.800 is powerful i don't know i don't think i can do the look though she doesn't i haven't seen this look

01:48:20.720 in a woman in a long time like i've seen it the bush administration it's been a while um i i've seen it

01:48:29.360 even just occasionally in the women that i've dated it's like it's this it's this you know in the

01:48:35.280 old movies it was accompanied by this it's like i know i didn't do it well but no i know i know

01:48:44.000 and it's like damn all right wow okay i could feel like her open sincere love beaming through her eyes

01:48:53.280 in that moment that's what i'm talking about and especially if a guy's looking for a long-term

01:48:58.720 relationship he's going to notice that because no one looks at men like that nobody even their wives

01:49:05.200 often don't look at them that way you know what i'm saying so like so so many men are contending

01:49:11.120 themselves with just a crumb of kindness because they're starving they're starving two more questions

01:49:18.960 here before we wrap up uh you mentioned that and i don't know if we fully got into it the useful aid

01:49:24.880 thing what are some ways that women can make themselves useful that's a great question because

01:49:30.480 i talked about the useful eight in terms of like that's the ideal from a male's perspective but

01:49:35.280 that's the other side of how a woman can get a man like i talk about one being the nastiest

01:49:41.440 latest version of herself possible because that kind of you know society where sex precedes commitment

01:49:47.760 that's the trojan horse that allows the guy to open the gates to let the woman into the city

01:49:52.720 now whether she just gets used and kicked out has to do with what she does with that opportunity

01:49:58.000 and if she just gets let into the city and she thinks that she doesn't have to do anything

01:50:01.440 she's going to get kicked out most likely that's just the cruel reality of today's sexual marketplace

01:50:06.560 so once she's there that's the opportunity to become useful why the idea here is for a woman to

01:50:13.440 be kind of a detective which women generally are they're good at like stalking people online and

01:50:18.080 figuring out who's dating who and all that stuff is like listen to a guy look around his lifestyle

01:50:26.960 do your due diligence and your research figure out what this guy is about and then without really

01:50:33.760 being asked start to try to help him in his mission like try to if you see something that

01:50:43.280 you could do that would make his life easier just just do it don't wait to be asked and this is good

01:50:49.840 for women because what this does is because most guys they might not even notice it's happening in

01:50:56.560 the beginning but the idea is that the woman implicates herself so thoroughly into the man's

01:51:03.600 lifestyle that it becomes functionally impossible to extricate herself from it like if you are not

01:51:10.720 i say this in an episode if if the only thing that i lose if i were to break up with a woman is access

01:51:20.240 to her netflix account she fucked up she fucked up she blew that chance blown chance blown so the idea

01:51:28.480 here is it has to be difficult or painful or expensive to get rid of you because you're kind of irreplaceable

01:51:37.040 at this point like i've come to depend on you so much yeah that's how a woman gets de facto

01:51:43.120 commitment even if they haven't like had a official ceremony or defined the relationship talk

01:51:49.200 is she's a part of his life now this is such good advice because to be frank one of the things that

01:51:55.440 i've learned on this show speaking to so many women on it so many women are dumbfounded as to how to offer

01:52:02.240 more to a relationship than just sex it's crazy how many young women have no idea what value they

01:52:08.400 can provide beyond that and part of that might be the lack of fathers but part of that also might be

01:52:12.880 that the women you only show are young and what are they dealing with 22 year old guys like what did

01:52:18.480 i want from a woman exclusively at 22 you know what i'm saying so it's like of like have guys trained

01:52:24.480 these women to expect more from them than just being a sexual object maybe not right i definitely

01:52:31.760 think there's some blame on the man the man's end because a lot of men are just

01:52:36.400 unfortunately just perfectly content just getting some yeah but there are men out there that do demand

01:52:43.200 more and want more and but uh yeah a lot of simps out there just they're happy to get just sex and

01:52:52.480 well i don't even need to be a simp to be happy with just sex i think it just makes you a man i

01:52:56.400 mean men just find sex to be so rewarding right but you there's definitely other things that you know

01:53:03.360 you can bring to a man and sure but you might the man might not even know what those things are like i

01:53:09.760 said the woman needs to kind of be aware of that man's mission and purpose and how to be complimented

01:53:15.840 which means the man has to fucking have the mission and purpose for the woman to see it right

01:53:20.000 and a lot of 22 year old guys don't have that right they don't know their ass from their elbow

01:53:26.400 what i mean so what would be some ways that a woman could be useful could it could be for example

01:53:31.600 she sees his uh his house is a bit untidy and she goes and tidies it up absolutely that's

01:53:38.000 laundry laundry is such a folding a real pain point for so many women there's there's something

01:53:44.480 psychologically associated with that you say laundry and they're back in the handmaid's tale

01:53:50.480 and they're down at the river with the washboard there you go when it's really like the easiest

01:53:55.840 household chore what do you think of this some one of the things uh and i i actually kind of fell

01:54:00.880 upon this accidentally i i just met this girl invited her over and i had my uh my laundry was finished

01:54:09.120 and uh i needed to fold it so i was like i kind of like i was like you just gave her expressions i was

01:54:19.280 like just gesturing with my head like no i was like uh you want to do the laundry for like first or

01:54:27.520 second time hanging out and she went right for it no because and i i've had similar experiences where

01:54:33.600 they'd be like i'm not doing your laundry but the girl who goes to do the the price of winning is

01:54:41.680 overpaying you have to be willing to do what the other women won't yep and guess what it's never been

01:54:48.160 fucking easier in the history of the world to do more than what most women are willing to do so today

01:54:54.560 so it is an easy market yeah same with men too it's like it's never probably been easier in the history

01:55:01.840 of their world to be a masculine man yeah it's a great you don't have a lot of competition in the

01:55:08.560 sense of by comparison yeah because there's a lot of not masculine correct okay i see and there's a

01:55:15.520 lot of masculinized women yeah so it's actually never been think about it how hard must it have been

01:55:20.160 to be a feminine women woman in like the wild west in the 19th century we didn't have indoor plumbing

01:55:26.160 where no one had you showered like once a week where you had to like wash your clothes by hand

01:55:32.480 and your makeup was powder that came from or no makeup even it's like how hard and women would

01:55:41.920 have their hair curled they'd be in these lacy dresses they would be scented and perfumed when it

01:55:48.480 was extremely difficult for them to do that now it's would be so easy femininity takes effort like

01:55:56.640 that kind of performative femininity women don't roll out of bed looking that way you know what i'm

01:56:00.720 saying it takes expense and effort and consideration but it has never been easier in the history of the

01:56:06.080 world for a woman to enact those aspects of performative femininity than today and women

01:56:12.080 don't do it by the same token probably for men as well i think it's also never been easier to

01:56:17.760 differentiate oneself from other women by being inoffensive living underscored donated 100

01:56:25.840 there's no way orion taraban is a real name talk about the double standard of a gf getting

01:56:31.760 attention outside of a relationship but the bf can't approach women they get to exercise their mating strat

01:56:38.800 did you get that i don't think i understood that besides the thing on my name talk about the double

01:56:45.600 standard of a girlfriend getting attention outside of a relationship oh okay oh this is good i can

01:56:50.960 talk about this yeah so it is my name for the record uh can't really take credit for it you know that

01:56:57.120 that was my dad's choice but i've kind of grown into it um so there is a double standard around this

01:57:04.480 and what i taught i talked about this on one of my fresh and fit appearances which is that women

01:57:11.440 generally have this passive optionality in the sexual marketplace because that of the fact that most

01:57:18.560 men will have sex with most women but most women will not have sex with most men which means that

01:57:23.680 women don't generally have to go out and generate optionality for themselves they just sort of like

01:57:28.800 maybe they have beta orbiters or they trust that if they needed to they could make something happen

01:57:33.840 right right most men don't have that kind of passive optionality so in order to kind of balance

01:57:41.040 the power dynamic in a relationship to create a kind of deterrence men need to actively come cultivate

01:57:47.760 their optionality to counter the woman's passive optionality as an agent in the sexual marketplace

01:57:54.800 men and women however cultivate their optionality in different ways the way that women cultivate

01:57:58.400 their optionality is by being visibly attractive duh right that's why women have these instagram

01:58:04.240 accounts and they're never going to give them up if they have hundred thousand subscribers even if they

01:58:08.960 truthfully say they will never entertain the possibility of a relationship with one of their fans

01:58:14.880 i actually believe that women don't date their fans right they want to date who they're a fan of right

01:58:21.920 so a lot of those guys actually aren't a threat to that relationship but they're never going to give

01:58:25.360 it up because it's a source of validation and attention and power right to know that there's a hundred

01:58:33.360 thousand men right out there today who are attracted to me men even if they have the abs and the arms they

01:58:41.360 don't they can't really cultivate their optionality by being visibly attractive the way that men cultivate

01:58:47.360 their optionality is by being visibly competent by being at the top of their status hierarchies so what

01:58:53.200 i tell guys is that if you're really good at something you need to tell the world you need to find a way to

01:58:58.160 tell the world in a non-douchey way that you're really good at this and allow people to recognize that from

01:59:06.960 all over the world and come to see you as a master of that dominance hierarchy even if there are no

01:59:14.640 other women in that hierarchy the fact that other men are looking up and saying wow that was amazing

01:59:19.360 what you said i really appreciate you've helped me out so much these are men saying they're praising

01:59:25.440 right they're respecting it i'm using respect in the masculine form which is we don't just respect

01:59:32.480 everybody right we respect based on where it's deserved because of a demonstration of excellence

01:59:38.880 right that's very different from like we should just respect all people which is really just basic

01:59:42.560 dignity and consideration uh and so if you are visibly competent as a man you will have that

01:59:49.600 passive optionality to counter the passive optionality of most women does that answer that

01:59:55.680 question do you think yeah i think so fairly yeah it sounded like he was a little bit pissed that he

02:00:00.720 couldn't approach women while his girlfriend was getting attention but well you could she might

02:00:05.520 not like it but you could do it and that doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't it's like

02:00:11.040 sometimes when the woman is happy she leaves and when a woman is unhappy she stays like the the happiness

02:00:19.120 of a woman is not necessarily predictive of whether she's going to stay in that relationship why do you

02:00:25.520 think women leave when they're happy when they're happy yeah they've gotten too much of what they

02:00:30.640 wanted and eventually they run out of things to want and it's almost like you know is that gonna

02:00:40.800 sound weird but it's like how do black holes die you know they have to go away eventually they suck

02:00:47.040 up everything around them and then there's nothing less to suck up and then they they have to suck

02:00:52.640 themselves up kind of a thing and then i guess we do know that black holes don't exist forever okay

02:00:59.920 i can't explain the astrophysics but final question unless you have one more maddie what you got you

02:01:06.320 got anything let me look through okay are you okay you didn't say much were you listening i told you i

02:01:12.880 i was here for moral support i feel so supported no i really i i'm a i'm an observer all right how

02:01:20.640 mysterious do you need to reach she she was mostly there just in case you need a water refill i'm good

02:01:25.440 she's the water girl thank you so i do have one um what can young women remind themselves of

02:01:34.000 to maintain self-control when it comes to not sleeping around in their 20s and preserving their purity

02:01:39.680 not necessarily even from a christian context just like this whole body count discourse has

02:01:48.080 penetrated the whole collective consciousness and like a lot of women are wondering about this

02:01:51.440 maybe i can add something on top of that um could it also be how in in an effort to

02:02:00.400 and in furtherance of not racking up a high body count how can women bet like pick

02:02:05.600 pick pick the right guy or avoid the and or avoid the temptation to sleep with the fun chads

02:02:15.840 that they know probably aren't going to commit but they still really want to anyways this is tough

02:02:21.440 because the assumption that might be undergirding this

02:02:26.720 i don't know there's this there's this like this belief that men just want to have sex and women

02:02:36.560 just want to have commitment and clearly that's not true if women can rack up a body count i and i

02:02:43.120 don't think that's because they actually wanted a committed relationship from any every man that they

02:02:47.760 slept with a lot of women just want to fuck a lot of women just want to have fun i there's a lot of

02:02:54.560 women i've i've met in san in the bay area in san francisco in their 20s who are absolutely they

02:03:02.000 have no belief that they will ever want to get married and have a family now we know that

02:03:08.320 statistically speaking a small percentage of those women will persist in that belief as they age and

02:03:13.760 the vast majority of them will change their minds in their 30s it's very hard to get women who aren't

02:03:22.560 interested in commitment to value commitment when you're 18 you could say

02:03:32.080 oh i just want to have fun and if you respond yeah but when you're 36

02:03:37.600 you can't that's going to be a liability for you in attracting a husband

02:03:42.240 and that's going to be a tough sell because 18 to 36 is a lifetime for an 18 year old that is so

02:03:53.280 far in the future they can't even conceptualize they don't even they don't remember being two

02:03:58.480 sometimes they don't even remember being five you know what i'm saying they don't they're not even

02:04:01.360 aware of their whole life so another lifetime away is so outside of their ability to conceptualize that i

02:04:08.960 think it would be very difficult to convince them to withhold a certain behavior that's clearly

02:04:16.160 pleasurable and exciting in the short term for something that they don't want and they believe

02:04:20.800 they will never want can i make my question more pointed okay please okay so what i've observed in a

02:04:28.000 lot of young women nowadays is that they will know i want to get married at some point okay i want to have

02:04:35.840 kids at some point okay i might not be there yet but like one common pattern that i've noticed when

02:04:44.000 speaking to women about this is that they will they know that they want those things some of them also

02:04:49.200 understand if i rack up a body count it could seriously hurt my prospects later on i get it right

02:04:55.680 but then they will face a situation where they meet a guy who they like and they will want commitment

02:05:02.080 from him they might want marriage and a future with him but he might not want that with them

02:05:06.400 but their emotions and their attraction to him will override those logical thought processes

02:05:12.240 and they will sleep with him anyways even though they know it's counterproductive to their long-term

02:05:16.880 goals got it right so they'll do it out of just sheer attraction uh desire for him while

02:05:23.040 knowing sometimes logically this is actually hurting my chances later on like how how can young women

02:05:29.040 what can young women tell themselves or how can they look at this okay so first of all i i you you

02:05:37.680 went very specific to like this particular man that they're attracted to i'll get to that in a second

02:05:44.240 let's expand just a little bit there's this phrase in aa that says that if you hang around a barber

02:05:50.880 you're going to get a haircut okay so a lot of what dictates women's relationship

02:05:59.200 history or trajectory depends on who they're spending their time with who their friends

02:06:03.840 are what their social circles are and where they're going in their free time yeah so if

02:06:09.360 your five best friends are going out every friday and saturday night to the parties to make out with

02:06:15.760 boys you're going to be the sixth you see what i'm saying so the first thing that women can do who

02:06:20.960 are interested in that is to very critically examine who they're spending time with and where are they

02:06:26.400 spending their time like again if you're going to parties every weekend you're eventually going to

02:06:32.480 be one of those girls the temptation is going to be too great and or the uh the breaks that would

02:06:42.240 prevent you from enacting that behavior are going to erode because you don't see any examples of

02:06:46.960 temperance or forbearance right okay so with respect to the specific person what i would

02:06:53.040 recommend is one of the best ways to get a you a man needs to feel emotionally engaged to commit to

02:07:02.400 a woman and a man doesn't get there just by having sex he can eventually especially if it's really good

02:07:11.280 and he can't find anywhere else etc etc um but if a woman demands or asks for commitment before the

02:07:19.920 man is emotionally connected or or hooked it's not going to work so what a woman has to do is emotionally

02:07:27.680 hook a guy and the way that i describe this is she has to be netflix okay who has a netflix account here

02:07:35.600 yeah everybody has a netflix account very popular streaming service obviously how does netflix get

02:07:42.400 people to buy memberships they don't demand that they give a membership right away and pay full price

02:07:50.000 what they do is they say free trial we want you to explore everything about this channel everything

02:07:58.400 about this product it's all yours and the idea here is netflix wants you to get emotionally engaged in

02:08:06.080 one of these episodes in one of these series so that you kind of need to know what's going to happen

02:08:14.800 you good and then straight yeah you all right you okay after the after the three months of the

02:08:21.120 single however long the trial is then they say okay you've had enough are you interested in buying a

02:08:26.720 membership now if that guy didn't get emotionally engaged joining the content on that channel

02:08:32.880 and or that guy felt like he could get that content anywhere somewhere else they he didn't have to pay

02:08:37.440 for it netflix is not going to convert that person into a customer but if that person feels that i need

02:08:44.000 to know how that series ends because that i can't get that series anywhere else not on hulu it's not

02:08:48.560 on disney plus it's not on peacock or whatever they're going to buy a membership because they're

02:08:54.480 emotionally engaged to original content that they can't find anywhere else that's how women get

02:09:01.040 commitment from men whether they're attracted to them or not gotcha got two chats here and then one

02:09:08.080 final question and then we're going to wrap up we have alberta sovereign donated canadian 50 hey thank

02:09:13.920 you man maddie do you want to read this damn good to see you chase we all miss your presence on the

02:09:19.600 show crisis king god bless you all on the show tonight thank you alberta sovereign thank you

02:09:25.120 thank you and then we have this one's going to come through here in just a moment casey mallette thank

02:09:31.040 you how do women find the balance between taking care of their man and mothering them have you ever

02:09:36.880 been in a relationship where you felt mothered in a negative way yes it's a good question i have

02:09:42.640 how did that feel i didn't like it and i reacted to the encroachment on my maturity and autonomy

02:09:55.280 through what i felt was inappropriate infantilization of me and that's actually a strategy that some women

02:10:00.880 use is that they will intentionally try to mother men to cultivate a kind of infantile dependence upon

02:10:09.920 them it's a little dark and twisted but it can work on men who are susceptible to that strategy you know

02:10:18.080 maybe it's not healthy or the best but it does work um the balance is if i can do it for myself and i

02:10:29.280 want to do it for myself don't do it for me i don't know how else to say it people are gonna

02:10:36.400 have different opinions over what that thing is some people they can't do that or they do it but

02:10:43.200 they they don't want to do it and so they're fine with the woman doing it but if you can do it and you

02:10:48.080 want to do it don't let her do it and if because if you allow her to do it it's going to create that

02:10:53.840 encroaching infantilization which cultivates inappropriate dependence on the woman which might

02:10:59.840 be in the service of her relationship goals got it got it final question for you great

02:11:07.200 what do women want that's the last question that's the last question yeah that's like an opener we

02:11:13.920 spent the last two hours talking about that uh the truthful and unsatisfying answer that question

02:11:22.160 is that women want what they want what means they obviously meaning it varies from woman to of course

02:11:33.200 yes we can talk we were talking about this before the show like we can talk statistically based on

02:11:38.880 what we know from the empirical evidence and the research and just our observations that works on

02:11:45.520 the population level like we know in general that women want a taller guy an older guy a higher status

02:11:50.800 guy hiring guy etc etc but on an individual level people's personal preferences often deviate significantly

02:11:58.320 from the statistical ideal or the social norm so people want what they want the reason why actually

02:12:06.480 you guys probably get into a lot of controversy on your shows is you will bring some of this research

02:12:12.400 i'm sure and individual women say well i don't want that or i don't care about that and let's assume that

02:12:19.680 they're telling the truth it's certainly possible that an individual woman wouldn't value very highly

02:12:26.400 what the research statistically says women as an abstraction value highly that could very well be true

02:12:32.160 everyone has a type like we know that ideally what's a 10 it's like a lingerie model you know what i'm

02:12:39.280 saying but for me like i like cute nerds that's my type so i'm going to respond more positively to that

02:12:46.080 when it shows up then the victoria's secret model sure clarifying question on this sure

02:12:54.960 let's get more pointed with it okay to hopefully get to the core of the matter because obviously

02:12:59.680 women are going to want different things but in the data what have you seen

02:13:06.720 how would i phrase this in the context of relationship what would you say are the three

02:13:14.080 most common emotional desires that women have from their relationship oh that's so hard

02:13:23.600 because i'm sure there's probably patterns in the data

02:13:25.760 i can speak off the top of my head about a study that's one of my favorites it's called attractive

02:13:32.640 women want it all and so true the researchers first evaluated well which women are very very

02:13:40.960 attractive so they gave a bunch of pictures and of faces and bodies to like a thousand men who all

02:13:46.240 voted on who the most who the nines and tens were who the most attractive women were and the researchers

02:13:50.720 only gave the survey to these very attractive women and the survey had like 40 items on it which is

02:13:55.360 like are you looking for a handsome and sexy man are you looking for a wealthy provider are you looking

02:14:01.760 for a family oriented man are you looking for somebody who is loyal and committed there's 40 items

02:14:09.200 and the attractive women across the board responded with

02:14:12.800 yes they wanted all 40 things they wanted all 40 fucking things on the survey like to a statistically

02:14:23.600 significant degree they all said yes to all 40 things they didn't all say yes to all 40 things to

02:14:29.840 the same degree so they could rank them but they all said yes to all 40 things do you understand yeah

02:14:34.960 and what's interesting because the study as i said was called attractive women want it all you can google

02:14:39.280 it it's it's it's it's easy to read this one um but what i found is that maybe you've discovered

02:14:45.920 this yourself is that less attractive women don't want less yeah so this can be very baffling to some

02:14:55.440 guys where the six has the same standards of expectations relationship as the nine and we might

02:15:00.400 think well that's kind of nutty isn't it but from their perspective that's what they want okay so um

02:15:07.600 um could that also be because

02:15:12.800 both of those women actually have sexual access to the same men it's possible like we we know we've

02:15:20.400 talked about you talked about on the show last time i was on that because most men will have sex with

02:15:26.400 most women lesser attractive women can gain sexual access to men that who would never ever think of

02:15:33.600 committing to them yeah right so they get used to chad they think so i i talk about this in my

02:15:39.280 forthcoming book about how to actually dial in sexual marketplace value and one way to think about

02:15:45.200 it is because it can lead to this inappropriate inflation of your smv for a woman if you're having

02:15:52.000 sex with all of these attractive sexy high status dudes right yeah but i think it's a better measure to

02:15:59.120 take let's say that median or the average of the smv of the men who are willing to give you commitment

02:16:06.880 that's a better marker for a woman's smv and it's actually a more of a metric to see what is the

02:16:14.560 average or median smv of the women that men can sleep with you want to measure it in what's more

02:16:20.000 difficult it's more difficult for men to get sex than commit than commitment and it's more difficult for

02:16:24.800 women to get commitment than sex and so that's the real metric for what they can pull because

02:16:30.400 people basically trade unequal things of comparable value in the sexual marketplace does that make

02:16:35.440 sense yeah great questions man this was so much fun i personally enjoyed this much more than the panel

02:16:42.080 because i feel like i got i didn't want to take up too much space when there was 12 people at the

02:16:46.720 table you know what i'm saying yeah but i feel like i could really like get in sixth gear tonight oh

02:16:52.480 definitely i thought it was a great conversation the panels are definitely uh it's hard you know

02:16:57.280 there's 10 people at the table only one person should really be speaking at a time it's hard to

02:17:02.320 sometimes you know find a way to insert yourself but uh i thought you were great on that episode we

02:17:08.080 had thank you a bunch of actually i think we had a couple clips from that episode that you were featured

02:17:12.720 in that did incredibly well so uh it was great to have you back um is there anything that you want

02:17:17.920 to plug before your book right thanks for reminding me yeah my book is forthcoming it's called the

02:17:23.120 value of others and will that be available uh like paperback or is it just gonna be digital it will

02:17:29.280 have a digital ebook it will be an audio book read by myself and it will be a paperback as well what's

02:17:35.760 it about it is understanding relationships through the lens of behavioral economics so it's about all

02:17:42.160 relationships but it's specifically about heterosexual relationships between men and women

02:17:45.760 and i'm bringing this lens of behavioral economics to explain why men and women do the things that

02:17:51.520 they do in their relationships and in the sexual marketplace got it i'm really excited about it i

02:17:56.800 don't think there's ever been a book quite like this one it's in the final editing stages so it should

02:18:01.920 be out in a month or two where can they get it on your website amazon it'll be on amazon i'm sure

02:18:07.360 it'll have links on my channel and on my website don't worry everyone's going to know about it

02:18:11.360 once it's ready to be pre-sold which should got it cool where can people follow you oh yeah psych

02:18:17.840 acts like you said so my main following is on youtube psych acts nick if you're able to pull pull

02:18:22.560 up there it is psychology i say it every time check out his channel he's got some great videos guys so

02:18:28.640 be sure to check it out okay guys uh well orion thank you so much for joining us yeah thank you

02:18:34.960 thanks for uh coming on maddie thank you thank you for the moral support i felt very morally supported

02:18:40.160 so guys last call please hit the like button on your way out thank you for tuning in tonight

02:18:44.080 you could have been anywhere in the world but you were here with us i appreciate that thank you to

02:18:48.480 everyone who uh supports the show thank you to all the chatters we will be live again sunday with our

02:18:55.520 normally scheduled dating talk podcast at 5 p.m pacific and uh those of you who are watching on twitch

02:19:03.760 i'm just going to quickly send you over to bobka he's playing world of warcraft right now so those

02:19:10.880 of you watching on twitch thank you for joining us i'm going to raid bob oh i gotta wait just a few

02:19:15.680 seconds here to raid him and uh let me see so oh i want to see oh sevens in the chat please oh sevens in

02:19:23.200 in the chat uh thanks again so much everybody for tuning in okay i just raided over on twitch

02:19:28.640 and uh yeah thanks again for watching guys we'll be back on sunday hope you all have a

02:19:34.480 very very good night thanks guys peace out

Orion Taraban PsycHacks vs. Chase & Brian! ｜ Whatever Podcast #5

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