Anarchonomicon - Ep37 Incest and Murder with Edward Dutton

00:00:00.000 Hello, glorious listeners.

00:00:03.320 Before we get started, I just want to remind you that Anarchonomicon is a purely listener-supported podcast.

00:00:10.300 We have no advertising, no paymasters, no field bucks, no foreign intel services, no USAID grant money.

00:00:19.920 We are entirely supported by individual listeners and readers like yourself.

00:00:24.520 If you think we're glowies, it is entirely because we're radioactive all on our own.

00:00:30.000 Having ordinary listeners sign up with an email, subscribe, like, restack, share, or comment does amazing things for this project.

00:00:40.500 And I personally consider those of you who become paid subscribers to be true saints.

00:00:45.680 And I will personally stand beside you and sing your praises at the final judgment of any gods or revolutions.

00:00:52.220 A deep, deep thank you to all of you who make this possible.

00:00:56.580 This would not exist without you.

00:00:58.540 Now on with the show.

00:01:00.000 They will chain you, like Prometheus, to a rock, where the memory of your own greatness

00:01:24.880 will gnaw you.

00:01:38.800 The battle for the mind of North America

00:01:41.420 will be fought in the video arena.

00:01:45.200 The video drone.

00:01:46.540 You look around, what do you see?

00:01:47.800 Businessmen, teachers, lawyers,

00:01:50.820 carpenters,

00:01:51.980 the very minds of the people

00:01:53.400 we are trying to save.

00:01:54.880 But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.

00:02:00.320 No, we're not doing that. You're getting called a slur.

00:02:04.520 After all, there is nothing real outside our perception of reality, is there?

00:02:11.780 You can see that, can't you?

00:02:13.560 I don't know. Tribal people, one of the main kinds of sport is sort of butchering each other.

00:02:20.020 It's a full-time sport in tribal societies. 1.00

00:02:22.820 You, my children, are the water. They will wash away all that has gone before. The gleam in the eye of sex. 0.99

00:02:34.240 It's very simple. The message is force is more effective than vote. Elections change nothing.

00:02:41.360 I had some ideas. We got global and tribal. The closer we get together, the more you like each other.

00:02:47.620 There's no evidence of that in any situation that we've ever heard of.

00:02:52.080 Major Lennox answered with his life, as you should have done if you had any sense of honor.

00:02:56.560 You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged.

00:03:01.540 And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

00:03:08.460 He who saves a nation violates no law.

00:03:15.540 All forms of violence are requests for identity.

00:03:18.840 When you live out on the frontier, you have no identity, you're a nobody, therefore you get very tough.

00:03:26.600 You have to prove that you are somebody, and so you become very violent. 0.99

00:03:31.760 I'm coming to kill you! 1.00

00:03:34.120 For greater safety, please avoid the English language. 0.99

00:03:40.500 Please do not translate this message.

00:03:44.400 And so identity is always accompanied by violence.

00:03:47.340 this seems paradoxical to you it works violence works therefore television is reality

00:03:56.700 and reality is less than television were you listening to me neo or were you looking at the

00:04:03.580 woman in the red dress it's just a grotesque post-modern psyop and anyone who's fallen for 0.58

00:04:08.280 this is brain damaged hello hello hello glorious listeners welcome to another exciting episode of

00:04:15.220 Narconoma Con podcast. I am joined today by the person I stole the hello, hello, hello from,

00:04:22.480 Ed Dutton, the Jolly Heretic. Say hello, Ed. Hello, hello, hello. Well, perhaps I actually

00:04:30.400 stole it from the English stereotype of a policeman, because the English stereotypical

00:04:35.580 policeman, back before they were woke, used to stereotypically say, hello, hello, hello,

00:04:39.820 what's all this then? So that's perhaps where I got it from. Yes, I copied it because

00:04:45.120 um as you caught me i i have a habit of having conversations with uh with guests before we

00:04:52.900 start recording so so i needed uh uh like solid like in your face break between like okay now

00:05:00.640 we're officially recording the podcast that uh three hellos in a row uh the guest isn't going

00:05:07.700 to miss that and start saying anything they don't want to say publicly but uh no i suppose not

00:05:15.000 No, no. Although we ended up beforehand just talking about things that we came to the conclusion we probably should say publicly, so it didn't really matter.

00:05:21.840 Yes, yes. So today's episode, my working title is Murder and Incest with Ed Dutton.

00:05:32.740 Today we're going to be discussing what I call intrafamilial sexual competition, intrafamilial, specifically why families break down into murder, incest, incest, homicide, murder, suicide, all that.

00:05:50.780 And I was telling Ed that part of my inspiration for this was I read a book, Cold Homicide by Dally, by Martin and O'Dally.

00:06:04.860 I will just try to find, I will include it in the show notes.

00:06:09.540 But the essence of this book, which I read years and years ago, is that they're trying to solve the mystery of spousal homicide.

00:06:17.900 Why do men murder their wives?

00:06:19.920 why do wives murder their husband on the face of it this is an incredibly irrational thing to do

00:06:25.560 uh on the face of it like uh you're going to be you're almost certainly going to be caught because

00:06:31.740 everyone suspects the husband um uh you really aren't gaining anything by it like there's a lot

00:06:39.960 of financial gain uh one could argue that with the evolutions of um of divorce law now there is

00:06:49.300 kind of an incentive to murder your husband but for decades there was like nothing to be gained

00:06:53.400 from murdering your spouse especially um i suppose you could you could argue that it's

00:06:59.160 a kind of signaling uh of your own power and of your own status to other men and and to other 0.96

00:07:07.660 women you're saying i am so confident in my power and my resources that i can kill my wife 0.69

00:07:14.040 and I don't suspect for a second 0.98

00:07:16.960 that her siblings or her father

00:07:20.600 will be able to do anything about it

00:07:22.120 so they won't be able to come after me

00:07:24.660 because I'm so important and powerful

00:07:26.260 so there's that element to it

00:07:28.060 and I suppose if she's wronged you

00:07:31.140 if she's had an affair or something

00:07:33.100 in a context in which it's highly patriarchal

00:07:36.660 and it's permitted to have things like honour killings

00:07:39.240 then you can't allow that disrespect

00:07:42.280 sex to go unchallenged, otherwise you will seem weak and it will lower your status, and 0.99

00:07:47.660 so therefore you kill her to indicate to other men that you're not to be messed with and 0.99

00:07:52.760 to indicate to other women that, yes, you have status and stuff, but you're not to be 0.99

00:07:57.020 cuckled, that you're not to be messed with.

00:07:58.880 Yeah, so there are certainly many examples of spousal homicides that follow that pattern

00:08:04.860 throughout history.

00:08:05.440 There are actually poems and plays that revolve around exactly that from the Renaissance

00:08:12.280 period. But when you look at modern spousal homicide, there's like usually an attempt to

00:08:17.520 cover it up or to make it look like an axon or some way to hide the fact that you're guilty.

00:08:24.680 And that destroys the signaling value of it. So what Martin and Dally concluded was that

00:08:34.140 in tribal societies, if your spouse is leaving you, and what they found is almost all spousal

00:08:41.120 homicides happen of men against women so husbands murdering their wife almost all that happens at

00:08:48.080 the moment where the spouse is cutting off sexual access so so as long as the wife was just cheating

00:08:56.680 on the husband uh usually that did not result in spousal homicide like it was higher risk but that

00:09:03.700 was not the big big jump the big jump was when this the girl tried to tried to leave and then

00:09:09.720 the spousal homicide would happen or the boyfriend homicide would happen and uh the reason they

00:09:17.220 they theorize is that in the ancestral environment if someone's stealing your uh spouse like

00:09:23.120 willingly uh there's someone related to you in the tribe like there's someone within the tribe

00:09:29.100 who's like reasonably close to you like they're an immediate competitor uh uh they are they are

00:09:37.020 like maybe a tribe over at most um uh so their offspring that they're going to have with the 0.89

00:09:44.120 girl is going to be competitor a competitor for your future offspring frame like the this woman 1.00

00:09:50.340 who's not going to be producing children for you is going to be producing immediate competitors 1.00

00:09:54.560 for her children for any other children you have who are are presumably going to be quite

00:10:02.200 rivalrous with them so so what they conclude the reason there's this profound instinct of no we have 1.00

00:10:08.360 to kill kill this woman before uh the male mind has to kill this woman before she can produce 0.98

00:10:16.420 viable offspring with the rival is so that there will not be rival offspring produced 1.00

00:10:22.840 produced that's crowding them out and and that this was in tribal society and uh in pre-state

00:10:31.900 societies this was very achievable well uh this was a very reliable because of course the spouse

00:10:41.180 can't can't resist can't resist you know woman can't really resist him her uh boyfriend or

00:10:49.220 husband's uh attempt at homicide and the the rival isn't really in a position to

00:10:55.580 especially if you cover up isn't in a necessarily in a position to coordinate against you then

00:11:02.380 then like he might he might piece it together and come after you i suppose i suppose um it raises

00:11:10.540 quite it's very interesting it raises quite a lot of interesting possibilities this i hadn't

00:11:14.560 thought about so thank you for bringing my attention to it. The obvious parallel is the

00:11:19.700 way that when a lion kills another male lion and takes over his pride and takes over his

00:11:27.360 wives as it were, his lionesses, then he immediately kills all the offspring of the lionesses

00:11:33.660 with the previous head lion because they're no good to him they're a waste of his resources

00:11:40.000 he wants the investment in his own children so it does make sense uh if if he can get away

00:11:47.480 with with murder because it's it's a highly patriarchal society let's say she's from another

00:11:53.120 village and doesn't have that many allies i assume maybe that's the case i don't know

00:11:57.560 um then by killing her you're quite right you are ensuring that there are fewer rivals 0.56

00:12:05.420 for the offspring that you already have via her, 0.97

00:12:12.200 so they no longer exist.

00:12:15.900 You're ensuring that your offspring, if you have offspring,

00:12:20.240 don't fall into the hands of another man

00:12:23.000 who is statistically quite likely to abuse them

00:12:27.420 and that sort of thing. 1.00

00:12:29.280 I mean, I don't know, because you're eliminating that female

00:12:33.440 and the offspring stay with you but also you're ensuring that your rival your your your this other

00:12:40.600 chap has waited completely wasted his resources he's been he's been investing resources he's been

00:12:47.420 having an affair with this woman he's been investing resources in her with a view to 0.99

00:12:51.720 ultimately using her as a vector to pass on his genes and if you kill her kill your wife then it's 1.00

00:12:57.740 been a complete waste of his time and you know that she's a waste of your time because you can 0.99

00:13:03.660 no longer trust her because she's prepared to go off with another man and anyway she could she 0.74

00:13:08.060 could have cuckolded you for all you know I mean you can't trust her if she behaves like that

00:13:11.260 so so it seems to me that could be a a combination of those those kinds of practices but I mean I

00:13:18.500 think that the more obvious thing that strikes me is simply that what you're talking about with

00:13:24.180 kind of people that would behave like that would be fast life history strategists, would be people

00:13:29.780 that are adapted to a live fast, die young ecology. That's what predicts sexual promiscuity, that's 0.97

00:13:35.540 what predicts socio-sexuality, that's what predicts violent behaviour, that's what predicts killing,

00:13:40.980 all of those things. And in a fast life history strategy ecology, the kind of person, the kind

00:13:45.540 of man that gets to the top, will tend to be to a significant degree an aggressive,

00:13:52.580 anti-social, dominant, narcissistic kind of man. And so it's more likely that he would have this

00:14:03.220 rage in him if he was challenged and he would kill people in a rage because he's a narcissist, 1.00

00:14:11.300 basically, because he's a psychopath. And him being challenged and him being disempowered 0.99

00:14:16.340 produces that rage and then it persuades other people to keep to to be careful with him and to

00:14:23.500 not mistreat him that that to me would make more sense and that is why it happens in prehistory

00:14:29.140 and that's why it happens now this is exactly what i wanted to have you on this is uh i i've

00:14:38.280 followed yourself for a while and you are basically the only person i've seen replicate this this

00:14:44.560 logic so tightly and uh you can do it on the fly which is like incredibly impressive uh so what

00:14:55.300 my plan for this episode uh now that we've kind of introduced this logic to our listeners is i

00:15:01.900 wanted to this is kind of the halloween special of the anarchonomic on podcast uh i i wanted to go

00:15:09.280 through a, so having read, uh, Homicide by Dali, I started applying this logic to a lot of things

00:15:18.080 that I did not saw in the world and just did not make sense to me, uh, specifically related to

00:15:23.520 homicide and, and, uh, what I've come to call in intrafamilial sexual competition. So, uh, basically

00:15:32.840 all the greatest stories of Western civilization, like all the great stories of like the ancient 0.59

00:15:40.600 Greeks, the Renaissance, they're all horribly sick and twisted. Like almost all of them are in some

00:15:47.700 way about like a devious twisted plot of murder, incest. I spent my university day studying

00:15:59.520 a renaissance and early modern theater and poetry and you would not believe how much

00:16:06.360 uh the plays of the of like early early modern europe are just about incest and murder like

00:16:14.520 they're entirely about uh these stories of what today we think of as like uh true crime scandals

00:16:23.980 you know uh the kind of true crime stories that i capture the public they were writing these

00:16:30.260 dynamically as plays and the and you'd think that these would make poor plays like if you tried to

00:16:38.080 make lindsey clancy the play that uh it you know this logic this perverse logic they've already

00:16:46.300 made they've made lindsey clancy the play they made it in ancient greece it's called media

00:16:50.320 exactly so yes it's been done so naively if you haven't been engaging with this media

00:16:58.620 you'd think that oh this logic this would be a bad play because uh this logic it's a crazy person

00:17:06.020 you can't relate to it no one can relate to it why would you go and watch a play about something

00:17:11.000 you can't understand or relate to and instead what we find is everyone can relate to it

00:17:16.620 No, they can relate to it. It's there. It's in our prehistory. It's in our sort of subconscious psychology. And anyway, the best plays, a really, really good short play that I really, really like, I've seen it a number of times, is Zoo Story by Edward Albee. And you're dealing with, I don't want to give the plot away, but you're dealing with total madness. But if it's well acted, if it's well done, you're completely absorbed in it. And it's very, very real and very, very convincing.

00:17:45.140 Yes, exactly. And in a way, it's like the most relatable because you're seeing like a person's, the way most of these plays are constructed is you're seeing a person's mind react to their mind having ideas that they don't understand and yet feeling compelled to do it.

00:18:05.880 And a lot of these are like some of the first like really good psychological studies. They're shockingly compelling for how twisted they are.

00:18:14.820 you think about the kind of people that that produce the plays as well I've just finished

00:18:19.220 just published this book called borderline genius borderline insane uh understanding borderline

00:18:24.040 personality disorder and how female borderlines have shaped history and one of the things I find

00:18:29.020 is that all of the most or sorry the majority of the most important anglophone females in history

00:18:34.920 had this personality disorder borderline personality disorder and so they are evolved

00:18:40.620 to a fast life history strategy

00:18:42.720 in which the world is a dangerous

00:18:44.800 and unstable place

00:18:46.480 in which they can be abandoned at any

00:18:48.820 minute, in which the world

00:18:50.760 seems empty and awful

00:18:52.840 in which 0.93

00:18:54.080 people are dark and psychopathic 0.99

00:18:57.080 and sociosexual 1.00

00:18:58.080 that's their world 1.00

00:19:00.080 it's a world of melodrama

00:19:02.300 and people that are evolved to melodrama

00:19:04.820 that's their evolutionary

00:19:06.760 match, they will create melodrama

00:19:08.760 so that they feel

00:19:10.300 alive and that's what a lot of people that are playwrights and so on that's what they're like

00:19:15.220 they are very psychopathological and they they portray melodrama because that's what their inner

00:19:21.220 life is like yes it's a it's it's addicting to uh to follow these scandals you know so my my

00:19:31.900 kind of vision for this podcast is i want to relate this to something the readers had probably

00:19:37.980 understand or engage with we're going to go through um a few different horror movies or

00:19:44.300 pop culture objects to like kind that uh really struck and struck a nerve to show kind of the

00:19:52.600 archetype of these types of conflicts uh we'll get your reaction to the dynamic and then we're

00:19:58.840 going to build up to the lindsey clancy case which uh i'm certain all our readers

00:20:04.520 are very fascinated to hear this, like, it broken down,

00:20:10.620 but also, like, all the weird odds and ends of, like, the relationship of that case.

00:20:16.100 So one of the most famous movies of all time, one of the best movies of all time,

00:20:22.980 is actually a gender swap to Lindsay Clancy's story.

00:20:27.120 And that's The Shining by Stanley Kubrick.

00:20:30.160 I don't suppose they told you anything in Denver about the tragedy we had up here during the winter of 1970.

00:20:37.540 I hired a man named Charles Grady. He's the winter caretaker.

00:20:40.720 From what I've been told, I mean, he seemed like a completely normal individual.

00:20:45.980 But at some point during the winter, he must have suffered some kind of a complete mental breakdown. 0.79

00:20:52.520 He ran amok and killed his family.

00:20:55.980 Well, you can rest assured, Mr. Ullman, that's not going to happen with me.

00:21:03.300 That's right.

00:21:05.960 Mom, do you really want to go and live in that hotel for the winter?

00:21:10.020 Sure I do. It'll be lots of fun.

00:21:12.760 The only thing that can get a bit trying up here during the winter is a tremendous sense of isolation.

00:21:19.220 Is there something bad here?

00:21:20.960 I fear you will have to deal with this matter

00:21:25.180 in the harshest possible way 0.96

00:21:27.900 I believe that I killed you with Manny 0.99

00:21:32.760 You did this to me, didn't you? 0.99

00:21:37.740 I'm not gonna hurt you 1.00

00:21:39.160 I'm just gonna bash your brains 1.00

00:21:48.300 Here's Johnny 0.97

00:21:49.500 so the shining uh if you're unfamiliar with it it's a story of a a family who works as the

00:22:07.940 caregivers of a hotel over winter in remote colorado and uh for reasons that are inexplicable

00:22:17.140 but entirely relatable uh uh it might be ghosts it might just be psychology uh the father jack

00:22:25.640 torrance played by jack uh the father played by jack nicholson feels compelled over the course

00:22:31.660 of the winter to murder his wife and child for seemingly no reason whatsoever like uh there's

00:22:37.800 there's ghosts and all these like visual representations in the film but there's no

00:22:42.060 like rational reason for him to kill his wife and child and uh what i my theory of it like uh if we

00:22:51.480 dismiss all the supernatural there's also interpretation that the that jack nicholson's 0.53

00:22:56.780 character is like gay and has been abusing the child but but for 40 years people watch this

00:23:02.020 movie and relate to it and not have that interpretation so the my interpretation of 0.83

00:23:08.720 the film is that uh and this is where it's really twisted and clever is because um on the surface

00:23:16.100 uh this family is living a life of extraordinary opulence taking care of this hotel uh the hotel

00:23:24.500 entranceway this gorgeous luxury uh main ballroom designed for like 20 people to lounge about uh

00:23:31.340 that's that's a nicholson's writing room uh he's a writer and he's writing the this book but over

00:23:37.940 the course of this winter that they're living in uh jack nicholson's character is going insane

00:23:43.120 um uh it becomes clear that he has horrible writing writer's block in spite of living

00:23:50.600 in this like seeming opulence in this isolated hotel uh he's actually being crushed by financial

00:23:59.060 considerations of of how they're going to provide for themselves once they've stopped taking care

00:24:04.600 of this hotel hotel and actually there's a ton of visuals that when whenever he's alone in the

00:24:11.900 hotel he's in one of the most opulent rooms but whenever he's with the family uh he's back uh the

00:24:19.060 hotel the hotel staff they didn't give the the caretaker family the suite they gave them like

00:24:25.900 this back this back like really run down uh section section of the hotel like a size for

00:24:33.340 family but it looks like a cheap fam 70s apartment whereas the rest of the hotel looks like the lap

00:24:41.040 of luxury and so so my interpretation of this is that uh is and the reason this is so relatable

00:24:50.080 and this feels so archetypal despite being a very modern story is because is that in a person's

00:24:57.820 hind brain there's this like blood memory of um all these especially if you're northern european

00:25:03.780 of all these long winters where a family is just surviving in a cabin and if you think about about

00:25:10.860 it a family of three or four surviving in a in a cabin or alone i reasonably isolated by the weather

00:25:17.960 especially if it's deep snow uh they have to survive off their winter stores so resource

00:25:24.660 scarcity is a big concern and my contention is buried in everyone's hindbrain there's this

00:25:33.760 this simultaneously instinct and fear that um that if those stores are going to last

00:25:42.260 the most efficient optimal thing for you to do is kill everyone else in the cabin and then you know

00:25:49.300 you'll be the one person who can survive off those limited stores you're you'll be the one 0.90

00:25:54.680 person who can if there's only enough food for one person but there's four people left the optimal

00:26:00.280 move is to kill the others and survive off it and of course the optimal person to do that is the

00:26:06.820 patriarch because they're fit they can they can provide for themselves they can they can they 0.91

00:26:13.260 built up this they can build it up up again and probably win a wife or whatnot whereas if four

00:26:18.900 people are surviving off one enough food for one person you know all four are going to die

00:26:25.280 and it strikes me sorry and so my conceit is that the reason the shining is so primally compelling

00:26:33.880 despite being so bizarrely unrelatable in every individual aspect of it you've never been a

00:26:41.360 caretaker of a hotel you've probably never been a writer uh a person with writer's block you've

00:26:47.140 probably never been isolated with your family for six months straight. The reason it's so

00:26:51.300 compelling is because it's a story of a family that's wound up in this primal situation of

00:27:00.340 the financial strain coming down on them. And Jack Torrance's instinct that, oh, I have to kill

00:27:11.300 my family now misfiring when it's not food concern it's financial concern okay i yeah i mean i think 0.90

00:27:20.640 the misfiring um is i don't i don't think it's misfiring i think it's perhaps even appropriately

00:27:28.960 firing but i i would i would see it in a much more sort of psychological way which is that as i said

00:27:36.760 earlier we are all on a or as i implied earlier we are all on a spectrum from a fast life history

00:27:43.560 to a slow life history fast life history you are adapted to an environment where you live fast

00:27:49.340 die young you invest resources in sex you pump and dump and you know the and the the easy yet

00:27:58.300 unstable environment does the rest uh such people that's a fast life history strategist

00:28:03.700 Such people are low in agreeableness because they don't need to cooperate.

00:28:07.760 Cooperation might never be paid back.

00:28:09.560 They are low in conscientiousness because they have to lethally kill

00:28:12.520 and be very sudden and respond to unpredictable threats.

00:28:15.880 They are high in neuroticism because it's a very violent and dangerous kind of ecology.

00:28:22.000 And so on.

00:28:24.060 And then as the environment becomes more stable and harsh,

00:28:27.340 then if you invest all your energy in sex and don't invest anything in your offspring,

00:28:31.260 then all the offspring could just die.

00:28:33.700 So you have fewer offspring and you invest more in them and you have fewer partners and you invest more in them.

00:28:40.060 And in order to survive, you have to cooperate. And so this elevates agreeableness. It elevates conscientiousness.

00:28:46.880 It lowers neuroticism, with the exception of social anxiety, which increases because you're in a highly pro-social group.

00:28:54.040 And it tends also to select for intelligence. You end up with people being less sociosexual and so on.

00:29:00.160 If we look at what I said earlier about the nature of the writer, the artist, the creative type, those people, on average, are fast life history strategists.

00:29:11.980 They are relatively low in agreeableness, which means that they don't care about offending people, so they come up with new ideas and that sort of thing.

00:29:18.800 They rock the boat and disrupt, as artists do.

00:29:23.740 They are relatively low in conscientiousness, which means they're not rule-bound.

00:29:27.360 They think outside the box. They generate unthinkable new ideas.

00:29:32.180 And they are neurotic, which means that they're constantly generating new ideas.

00:29:36.340 And they see the world as a frightening, dangerous place, which they want to take control of via expressing how they feel, expressing their true nature.

00:29:46.340 Related to this personality type is personality disorders such as Machiavellianism, where you want to have power, a great deal of power.

00:29:54.420 psychopathy where you're basically completely selfish and self-absorbed uh and narcissism

00:30:01.660 which is where you you think you're grandiose you you think you're brilliant you think you're

00:30:05.660 important uh and you're entitled and so on and you deal with your negative feelings by creating

00:30:11.440 a false self in which you tell yourself that you're important you're amazing and whatever

00:30:15.120 and you try to get narcissistic supply uh to reassure you that you're amazing and important

00:30:20.000 and to keep the wolf from the door, as it were,

00:30:23.240 of your deep negative feelings of resentment and hatred and loathing

00:30:26.520 and whatever it is that you feel.

00:30:28.400 That's narcissism.

00:30:29.440 And you have this dark triad of psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism,

00:30:33.080 and they all correlate and are related to neuroticism

00:30:36.020 and low agreeableness and low conscientiousness.

00:30:38.440 So this is a dark personality type of person.

00:30:41.900 And that's what the artist is like.

00:30:43.580 That's what the creative, successful creative person will tend to be like.

00:30:48.240 And so it strikes me that what you've got there is you said he's got writer's block, right?

00:30:53.060 He's some kind of writer. Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly.

00:30:55.920 Right. So I'm thinking he's probably going to be what I said.

00:30:59.020 He's going to be this dark triad kind of person. He's probably going to be a narcissist. 0.57

00:31:02.840 And the one thing you can't cope with, you want power and you want to control things and you want to feel that you're important.

00:31:09.200 And you have all these negative feelings, intensely negative feelings, which you which you hold in a bay and cover up by your delusion, which other people participate in.

00:31:20.020 You are brilliant and amazing and special and all this sort of thing. 0.99

00:31:23.740 And the worst thing is for your narcissism to be punctured, for you to be a collapsed narcissist, because then you might as well kill yourself. 1.00

00:31:29.880 You might if you have to admit I'm rubbish, I'm no good, I'm awful. 1.00

00:31:33.500 you can't cope with that your negative feelings are so strong stronger than most people's that 0.99

00:31:37.880 they overwhelm you and you want to just die and you'll kill yourself basically and so that is

00:31:44.360 dealt with if someone challenges your sense of perfection and so forth with narcissistic rage

00:31:48.780 with you utterly attacking them and you know to make the person that's challenging your delusion

00:31:54.700 go away and I think you saw that perhaps with your example earlier of the woman having an affair and

00:32:01.160 so forth, the person who is that type of fast-fifty strategy, violent man, he's triggered, his

00:32:06.540 narcissistic rage is triggered, he has to make this thing that makes him feel no good, makes him 0.99

00:32:09.740 feel awful, go away, and so he kills her. And with this, probably, from what I'm hearing, from my 0.77

00:32:16.440 understanding of what you said, you've got a writer that's got writer's block, so I'm thinking

00:32:19.600 fast-fifty strategist, dark triad type. He's humiliated a bit because he's not put in the

00:32:25.600 opulent room, but he wants to go in the opulent room so he can live out this fantasy that he's

00:32:30.780 actually you know he's actually important and worth something and and so on but you're saying

00:32:35.020 he's got financial troubles yes and so eventually it will get to a point where he'll have to admit

00:32:41.240 to his family that he's got all these that they're in trouble and it's his fault and whatever but he

00:32:45.720 can't admit that because that would that would shatter his narcissistic false self and the

00:32:49.440 negative feelings would come through and he wouldn't be able to cope with that he fears 0.99

00:32:52.260 that he wouldn't be able to cope with that and so better to just uh kill them so that he doesn't 0.97

00:32:57.500 have to be confronted with the problem and then live in live in continue living in his fantasy 0.97

00:33:01.820 world and then related to that because he's a fast life history strategist live fast die young

00:33:07.060 don't invest much in the offspring uh you know uh then from his perspective well i can always have

00:33:13.340 more offspring i could always find another woman i haven't i haven't invested much so so why not 0.98

00:33:19.740 kill them um and and start again whereas a person that was a slow life you piece all this together 0.97

00:33:25.380 And you haven't seen the film? 0.99

00:33:29.400 No, I haven't seen the film, no.

00:33:30.760 Okay, that...

00:33:31.520 I think that's the reason...

00:33:32.580 I think that struck me as a reasonable kind of interpretation.

00:33:35.440 Yeah, that is exactly the character of Jack Torrance in the film.

00:33:41.140 He's famously grandiose when he starts raging at his family.

00:33:45.740 There's actually a scene where he's where his son has seen something in one of the one of the nice suites and he has to go investigate and he encounters the ghost of a of a gorgeous woman in there who's naked, who's naked. 0.95

00:34:03.860 And right as he his fantasy is coming to culmination, she turns into a hag and laughs at him. 0.58

00:34:11.040 And that lines up exactly with your psychological profile that you're describing. 0.90

00:34:15.740 uh uh the the film itself the most popular interpretation of it is it's a stanley kubrick

00:34:23.980 is adapting it from the book by stephen king of the same name the shining and stephen king hated

00:34:29.540 the film adaptation but the audiences loved it and famously the most popular interpretation

00:34:35.300 is it's a is it's a stanley kubrick's accusation to stephen king that the writer character is his

00:34:42.520 self-insert and uh and that he's accusing Stephen King of being this grandiose narcissist and

00:34:49.700 well that's all I mean that's I mean I don't I've only read like one Stephen King short story and

00:34:54.940 I've seen a few of his films and so forth but I I would think that for him to be as from the

00:35:00.600 research that I've done in my new book uh what you find is that um very successful men like world

00:35:06.760 famous eminent men they don't tend to be clinically uh having a personality disorder

00:35:13.260 but they tend to be sub-clinically having a personality disorder so they won't be the full-on

00:35:18.700 grandiose narcissist necessarily uh but they will have you know let's say half the traits

00:35:24.800 or something like that or a few of the traits very strongly whereas interestingly with because

00:35:31.100 men inherited men because of sexual selection processes and women selecting for status and

00:35:35.580 things like that. Inherence in men is drive and ambition and a desire for status and so on.

00:35:41.280 Whereas the women that are very successful, because they don't have those, women don't have

00:35:44.780 those things, women are much more conformist and group oriented and less status seeking and so on. 0.87

00:35:49.760 And so they really are extreme outliers in terms of women. And they do tend to have personality 1.00

00:35:54.420 disorders like narcissism and BPD. But I was just going to say, it was very interesting that you

00:35:58.360 comment on that ghost, because I've been researching at the moment, I am researching a

00:36:02.320 book on the paranormal and one of the things that's found is that narcissism predicts having

00:36:08.460 presuming that these people aren't making it up uh predicts having paranormal experiences

00:36:14.220 and that would make sense because what you're doing with a disorder like this is you're

00:36:21.200 dissociating you're you're entering a fantasy world you're daydreaming in a sense all the time

00:36:27.280 and uh what often happens with these kind of experiences of ghosts is a person dissociates

00:36:33.460 a person is a kind of in a a semi-trance like state in a way um and in that kind of state

00:36:40.340 imagination can enter in can be enter into the envy if you're dissociating into the

00:36:48.020 narcissistic grandiosity then yes and exactly and then the ghost the ghost itself not only is the

00:36:54.280 narcissistic reinforcement so the dissociation which is associated with narcissism and that

00:37:00.400 kind of thing and borderline personality the dissociation means you're more likely to have

00:37:04.300 sort of very intense daydream you know visions and and and that that sort of thing the high

00:37:10.120 neuroticism which they tend to have is associated with psychosis which means that you could have

00:37:15.200 visions and hear voices and and that sort of thing it's also associated with being very on

00:37:19.480 edge if you're neurotic you're very kind of on edge all the time you're you're instinctive

00:37:23.960 And that can cause you, our in-group, our cognitive biases include over-detecting agency, for example, and over-detecting causation.

00:37:35.860 And this kind of thing can lead you to have hallucinations because you're on it and you hear a sound and you're mistaken.

00:37:42.640 Or seeing the floating, floating dagger. That is psychologically exactly what a a narcissist who decides to usurp the throne of Scotland might might experience.

00:37:58.560 Yes, it is. They are more like that psychology of being highly neurotic and also of being prone to dissociation, which is associated with being neurotic, is associated with having these kinds of numinous experiences.

00:38:14.640 Yes, that's the case. Yeah, that's so. So it's very well observed.

00:38:20.600 I don't know how much Stephen King knows about the psychology of these kinds of people and how much he's read about it, but I assume quite a lot.

00:38:26.760 Well, so what I described is the film version, which is generally considered the better version.

00:38:34.320 The book version is Stephen King's self-insert and ends with the father redeeming himself and this warm, touchy, oh, he's a good man all along and all this stuff.

00:38:47.140 And Stanley Kubrick throws all that out to say, no, this is a monster, this is a horrible person, which is why Steam King famously despises the film version of The Shining, despite it being maybe one of the greatest films of all time.

00:39:00.980 That's very interesting. It's too near the bone.

00:39:05.720 And the idea of conversion experience is interesting.

00:39:09.720 The idea of a person fundamentally changing, that doesn't really happen.

00:39:15.420 a person will superficially change i.e they might move from being a screaming atheist to a

00:39:21.920 fundamentalist christian or a fundamentalist christian to a screaming atheist but at a

00:39:27.880 fundamental level they haven't changed i.e both those kinds of people they like structure they

00:39:34.020 like order they like um they they they like they don't like ambiguity they they like to feel that

00:39:39.840 they're important and superior intellectually or spiritually whatever it's it's the same

00:39:44.500 fundamental neurotic person that deals with it via a via a kind of um a kind of narcissism

00:39:51.360 yes all right this is already amazing uh i've i'm gonna go on to the next example which is a

00:40:01.100 a very simple film but uh but uh one i think you'll appreciate so the baba duck this is actually

00:40:08.160 Some people say that...

00:40:09.740 That I've seen, an Australian film.

00:40:11.720 Yes, yes.

00:40:13.560 Yes, yes, that I saw with my wife about 15 years ago.

00:40:18.080 Samuel.

00:40:20.360 I don't want you to die.

00:40:22.780 It isn't real, it isn't real.

00:40:24.520 It's just a book.

00:40:29.720 Where'd you get this?

00:40:31.740 On the shelf.

00:40:33.900 If it's in a word or it's in a look,

00:40:36.120 You can't get rid of the Babadook.

00:40:39.640 Babadook, duck, duck.

00:40:45.600 It wants to scare you first. 0.96

00:40:49.860 Then you'll see it.

00:40:55.700 This monster thing has got to stop.

00:40:58.320 You can't get rid of the Babadook.

00:41:00.460 What do you want?

00:41:17.260 You can bring me the boy.

00:41:19.100 You can bring me the boy.

00:41:20.840 You can bring me the boy. 1.00

00:41:22.980 you can't get rid of the babadook

00:41:35.020 yes so the babadook for those of you who haven't seen it uh it's a story of a single mother and her

00:41:45.540 autistic son who has like developmental problems and they become haunted by this ghost of uh he

00:41:55.620 looks like a tall like a a 1930s dapper man but with distorted features he wears a top hat and a

00:42:03.580 cloak cloak and whatnot they become haunted by this ghost the babadook who's kind of half between

00:42:08.300 this this vision of a dapper man and a monster and what you what you slowly realize because

00:42:15.200 most of the iconic scenes are actually just the sun acting up, that half of it's the horror of

00:42:21.760 having a, like, developmentally problematic child from the perspective of this woman. But

00:42:28.880 the other half is this supernatural horror. And what you slowly realize throughout the film is

00:42:33.640 that the Babadook, this monster that haunts her and came in the form of a children's book,

00:42:40.620 and she's actually a children's author uh uh the babadook is the manifestation of her uh 0.87

00:42:48.140 sexual frustration and her desire to murder her own her own son that uh the babadook is 0.70

00:42:56.020 the reason he looks like a tall dark handsome stranger but like distorted and frightening 0.82

00:43:02.000 is because he, he is her desire for a tall, dark, handsome stranger, like her, her frustrated

00:43:11.300 romantic desire, um, combined. And the reason he wants to kill her son is because her libido 0.99

00:43:18.740 wants to kill her, her son. She has this, uh, desire that, that you see like, uh, in birds or 0.98

00:43:25.160 cats to kill off the runty child to uh to either provide resources to other children which he 0.99

00:43:32.240 doesn't have or to to start over again and like reset her uh sexual market value 0.62

00:43:38.980 yes and uh the yes well and uh i think it's quite telling that uh the car the character herself

00:43:52.920 made her fortune through a like pop-up children's book and there's a creepy one that has the

00:43:59.320 Babadook in it that arrives mysteriously and it's obvious oh she you'd piece together by the end that

00:44:05.700 oh she made the Babadook book in like a dissociative state uh but uh but that uh her actual problematic

00:44:15.260 child is uh is like at odds with her fantasy of what other children should be

00:44:23.460 yes so this is very much congress with the kind of artistic women that i've explored in my book 0.99

00:44:32.120 borderline genius borderline insane and it sounds very much like she has borderline personality

00:44:38.720 disorder which is marked by uh i always forget them so i've got it written down this is the book

00:44:44.620 marked by nine key traits, and these are highly unstable and extreme moods, poor emotional

00:44:53.620 regulation, fundamental fear of abandonment, impulsivity, including risk-taking, sexual

00:44:57.440 risk-taking, identity disturbance or diffusion, leading to unstable goals and sense of who you

00:45:01.640 are, chronic feelings of emptiness, intense unstable relationships in which you cycle

00:45:05.600 through idealising and de-idealising yourself and your partner, extreme anger, self-harp

00:45:10.980 threats to self-harm, transient dissociation and paranoid psychosis. So those are the key traits

00:45:17.760 and it is that which seems to predict being a creatively successful woman or it is to a

00:45:24.200 significant degree that which is predicted being a creatively successful woman. Again these kinds

00:45:30.040 of women are elevated in reporting ghosts which makes sense because they are elevated in 0.99

00:45:37.120 dissociation, and therefore with that getting into the kind of state where you have visions,

00:45:44.860 where you're hallucinating, and that sort of thing. Obviously, in a severe case of dissociation,

00:45:49.920 you have paranoid psychosis, and then you can literally hear and see things that aren't there.

00:45:55.920 You're essentially schizophrenic, or it's a significant component of schizophrenia,

00:46:00.100 it's paranoid psychosis. And so you separate things out, you see things that aren't there,

00:46:04.500 this all makes sense um these women are obviously fast life history strategists you know live fast 1.00

00:46:09.760 die young these women are the man killers you know the people that will steal another woman's 1.00

00:46:15.100 uh husband uh these you know these these kinds of women that's what the the borderline strategy is 0.98

00:46:20.840 is kind of like they're highly sociosexual and uh and that sort of thing and so it makes sense 1.00

00:46:26.700 she's a single mother of course she's a single mother she's going to be anti-social and uh and

00:46:31.420 and stuff like that well so in the film there's actually a tension here because the father

00:46:36.880 uh didn't leave or she didn't leave the father the father died and so this is where uh the

00:46:44.000 babadook is like the is more like stephen king's the shining where uh she balances on the edge of

00:46:51.580 wanting to kill her her son but instead uh reifies her love for her deceased husband and her

00:46:59.400 and her desire to keep her son alive 0.67

00:47:03.520 and they live happily ever after

00:47:05.460 within the plot of the film.

00:47:08.780 That won't happen.

00:47:10.160 But anyway, the point is she is a single mother

00:47:12.900 and this will calibrate you towards

00:47:14.780 a sort of a fast life history strategy, basically,

00:47:17.660 even if you are not otherwise one,

00:47:20.300 it will calibrate you towards it.

00:47:22.820 Autistic son, well, autism is deficiencies

00:47:25.300 in social abilities, so that kind of thing makes sense.

00:47:28.240 and there's some evidence in women that it crosses over with BPD.

00:47:34.620 And then, yeah, the whole idea of the ghost and the psychosis

00:47:39.620 and the nature of him, it reminds me rather of,

00:47:42.940 I did a book years ago called Witches, Feminism and the Fall of the West,

00:47:46.520 where I looked at these women that were accused of witches 1.00

00:47:48.920 and they would have these rape fantasies, essentially, 0.99

00:47:52.660 where the devil appeared to me in the form of a black man 1.00

00:47:55.920 and had sex with me from behind 1.00

00:47:57.360 and sucked my dugs for six days until they hurt 1.00

00:47:59.960 and things like this. 0.99

00:48:01.640 So you've got this dominance fantasy.

00:48:04.880 If you're a fast-fifty strategist...

00:48:05.920 Oh, I want to establish, just for our listeners at home,

00:48:09.740 this is like recorded confessions

00:48:12.400 and many of them would confess to this

00:48:15.080 without being tortured or even interrogated that hard.

00:48:19.060 And they'd maintain it later.

00:48:21.840 They'd have a secondary priest in.

00:48:23.840 like were they were actually very much incentivized to like even if it did happen and the devil did

00:48:32.180 come to them they had every incentive to lie after the fact and say no no no I made that up because

00:48:36.580 I thought you were going to torture me and actually shockingly few of them did like there's

00:48:41.680 we didn't really use torture in England in other places perhaps yes but England they didn't use

00:48:47.000 torture people were very skeptical of witchcraft and they bent over backwards to try and find

00:48:52.240 many of these women not guilty but they insisted on confessing to these things so you've got this 0.98

00:48:58.940 so you can see that so she's got this sexual fantasy which is a fast life history sexual 0.57

00:49:03.580 fantasy of a really a kind of dominance fantasy a very dominant psychopathic kind of man that's 0.58

00:49:09.660 what she wants that's what she likes who's who's trying to dominate her which is a kind of

00:49:14.260 narcissistic fantasy i i'm so attractive that this dominant man can't keep his hands off me

00:49:20.420 So the rape fantasy is an interesting contradiction.

00:49:23.720 But on the other hand, if you're a far-sufficiency strategist, evolved to unstable ecology, you have to be quite masculine yourself.

00:49:30.420 You have to take on the masculine roles. And so the evidence that he is the dominant man is that he can dominate you.

00:49:36.700 And so this is where you get these rape fantasies from and where 60 percent of a sample of female students reported having these rape fantasies.

00:49:44.820 and they correlate with being socio-sexual they correlate with being naturally with being a fast

00:49:50.620 life history strategist that's not concerned with a nice kind man that's going to invest and look

00:49:54.960 after them and look after the husband that's not the ecology they're evolved to they're evolved to

00:49:58.660 live fast die young and they want the dominant genes so it seems to me that to fit with that

00:50:04.420 and then what you were saying about killing the runt of the litter again if you are a fast life

00:50:10.640 history strategist in which you're confident new children will come and whatever well that that's 1.00

00:50:14.780 the logical thing to do even if you only got one child is to kill it kill it if it's a runt as you 0.98

00:50:20.260 say your your mate value is heavily hampered if you're a woman with a child it's it's it's it's 0.99

00:50:28.360 lowered one of the ways that are not particularly high mate value man can can get a very good

00:50:35.580 looking fit girl is a girl who's a single mum and by taking on her child so you make the trade-off

00:50:43.440 you make the trade-off uh but you you have to then look look after somebody else's child but 0.85

00:50:49.780 in return you get a good looking woman so this all makes sense uh in in terms of um evolutionary

00:50:56.780 psychology uh yeah it's and it's the ending that they've tacked on that she fights and she

00:51:03.300 manages to defeat them isn't it a isn't it a cliffhanger isn't it that there is a happy ending

00:51:10.140 and then right at the end the babadook kind of comes back or something isn't there something

00:51:14.760 yeah like there's one ending there's one ending shot that maybe it's still like haunting the

00:51:20.880 recesses of her mind but i i would contend that the ending is actually fairly accurate because

00:51:26.400 you gotta imagine that that for every mother who actually follows and we're going to get to get

00:51:32.280 this at the lindsey clancy case uh for every mother that actually like falls through and

00:51:36.880 murders her like run to your autistic child there's got to be 50 who have the idea have it

00:51:44.180 like really stick around in their head and then decide not to or like don't have the nerve to do 0.87

00:51:49.520 it or just uh you know they're there trying to repress the fact that they had that thought

00:51:55.220 And the child, like, is slightly disturbed or, like, has something that he saw that in his mother's eye, briefly.

00:52:04.460 Some of our listeners might have seen that in their mother's eye.

00:52:09.040 The idea as well that you dissociate under stress, which you can do, right, such that these things, the ghost or whatever, can seem, become psychotic under stress.

00:52:23.560 such that they seem very real

00:52:25.760 that it actually seems real

00:52:28.040 even though really it's you doing it

00:52:30.020 which is what you're kind of getting at with this

00:52:32.060 it's you that's doing it

00:52:33.220 it's consistent with the research on

00:52:36.160 poltergeists

00:52:37.120 which is that it tends to be

00:52:40.140 basically mentally disturbed 0.95

00:52:42.560 teenage girls 0.83

00:52:44.160 and they 1.00

00:52:46.180 are frauds, it is them that is doing it

00:52:48.320 but they might not even quite realise they're doing it

00:52:50.480 there might be a degree to which it's unconscious

00:52:52.180 kind of behavior because they've dissociated or that sort of thing but it's girls on the

00:52:57.780 that have just often that have just entered puberty or something like that that started

00:53:01.680 menstruating and they have borderline personality kind of traits and so they are attention seeking

00:53:08.680 and they are full of negative feelings and they are angry and they are dissociating and they are

00:53:14.740 paranoid and all of these kinds of things and it seems to be there was a there was a victorian

00:53:19.440 research just called it the naughty girl syndrome poltergeist so it's also consistent with that

00:53:27.260 yes and and uh specifically the construction of the babadook is this external male force

00:53:34.960 that's responsible for the mother's own homicidal ideation uh that's ego protecting

00:53:41.860 for the mother character because it's not me thinking thinking these thoughts i'm not being

00:53:48.000 a bad mother i'm protecting my child from this horrible force that has entered entered our lives

00:53:54.060 this demonic force i'm actually well the thing is with borderlines this is interesting they have 0.59

00:54:01.300 an unstable sense of self now what does that mean well on the one hand it means that you're so full

00:54:07.700 of anxiety that you're constantly worrying and you're constantly concerned and so you you deal

00:54:13.520 with this you don't like ambiguity for that reason and so you tend to adopt a very strong

00:54:18.120 sense of identity a very black and white sense of identity but like these converts i mentioned

00:54:23.460 earlier um it's unstable because then you you'll go through a period your sense of self is unstable

00:54:29.280 you will oscillate between thinking you're very you're you're you're splitting all the time even

00:54:34.260 with yourself so you will oscillate between narcissism and seeing yourself as brilliant

00:54:38.060 and complete collapse and seeing yourself as appalling and in the collapse you will often

00:54:43.380 then change identity to a completely different identity so you'll go from as I said being an

00:54:48.620 atheist to a fundamentalist Christian or a raging leftist to a to a trad Catholic or that sort of

00:54:53.900 thing so your identity and goals and everything is unstable across time but also the very nature

00:55:00.040 of self what do we do when we create a self what we basically do is we look around the world and

00:55:06.480 we notice oh this phrase works in this context this person's used or this person who identify

00:55:12.060 with uses this kind of pronunciation or this person who identify with uses where's this

00:55:16.600 or whatever um and we take those things and we mold them together into a smooth sense of self

00:55:23.080 but the if you're deeply anxious you don't have the ability to do that because you could get it

00:55:27.920 wrong so you don't have the ability to i'll take that bit but not that bit you can't really do

00:55:33.580 that because you're so anxious you think you've noticed this works in a situation you might get

00:55:37.340 it wrong so you take it on wholesale so you notice in this situation this person behaves like this

00:55:43.420 and it works so I will become this person in this situation I will use his phrasing I will use his

00:55:49.080 accent I will be him and that and that and that and that's what they they can that's what you'll

00:55:54.900 see them under stress particularly that's what they'll do so under stress a borderline can

00:55:59.440 literally become a completely different person often including a different accent a different

00:56:04.060 phrase or a different uh sense of voice everything uh they might for example become their abusive

00:56:10.300 father when they are angry with you down to very fine details and so you've got that element to it

00:56:16.600 as well the the splitting up of the self you might notice such that the bad self you might notice this

00:56:21.160 in yourself in like minor details uh dear reader that like if you're at work and it's like stressful

00:56:28.240 and you have to do like a tough job that uh suddenly you start behaving more and more like

00:56:35.060 your supervisor who is able to do it well uh right and you might catch yourself imitating a mannerism

00:56:43.120 of this like former supervisor you had it's like why did you do that you know that mannerism isn't

00:56:48.640 related to the task and yet you're trying to to imitate uh all these things that that worked well

00:56:56.800 Well, the military in a lot of ways, if you look at the way boot camp has developed, like the U.S. Marine Corps specifically, I saw a documentary recently, like how their drill instructors behave has actually gradually become parodies of previous drill instructors.

00:57:20.060 So if you look at a current documentary on the Marine Corps versus like something from the 80s when Full Metal Jack was going, Ketterie Surgeon R.E. Emery like thought he was doing a parody of a bad drill instructor and he was using a normal voice.

00:57:43.120 whereas now almost all drill instructors in the u.s marine corps like uh imitate this accent to the

00:57:50.140 point where they actually like strain their voice they say that marine corps drill instructors i

00:57:55.280 think i think you have a frog voice yeah you're correct i think have a frog voice yeah yeah you're

00:58:00.800 correct about that it can and yeah it can happen to ordinary people in a small way yeah and within

00:58:07.060 the institution of the marine corps because everyone's imitating the previous drill sergeant

00:58:11.420 they had when they get in that role and because being a drill sergeant is very stressful it's

00:58:16.000 like being one of the recruits but actually you have to wake up earlier and go to bed later

00:58:20.620 uh slowly this role has uh has morphed into multi-generationally doing this and you can

00:58:28.400 see the personality they're imitating decay over time into like these odd these odd parodies of

00:58:36.160 how they do it uh uh the documentary i saw recently was not exactly flattering but seemingly it still

00:58:45.000 works they're still producing marines so it's it's doing what it was intended to yes lots of

00:58:50.260 lots of lots of perfectly um mentally stable people will whether consciously or not will

00:58:59.820 imitate certain celebrities with whom they identify in certain ways uh you could you could

00:59:06.800 argue that part of that is if it's narcissistic is it's just signaling status but but if it isn't

00:59:12.200 then it's it's just a thing that we do we imitate those that we look up to and that we we see

00:59:16.820 ourselves as we see ourselves in and so on so i have a friend who's perfectly stable and normal

00:59:22.500 and he'll he'll just go yes like that yes but he's got that from a guy in england a celebrity

00:59:28.920 in the uk called jeremy clarkson who's very very famous in the uk right he's a hero of a certain

00:59:34.900 class of people in the uk and he sees himself as a bit like him and would like to be like him

00:59:39.760 or there was a woman i met once who she would say i know like that she'd got that from monica from

00:59:45.500 friends right and she obviously kind of identified a little bit with monica from friends yes so

00:59:51.540 without thinking so a lot of these like mentally odd behaviors uh uh just keep that mind dear

00:59:58.660 listener that uh you are almost certainly manifesting like a uh a lower tier of this

01:00:05.380 that like none of these are like fully alien they're just like dialed up you might have it

01:00:10.740 at one these people have it at 11. yeah they're extreme they're very extreme versions of things

01:00:15.940 that are possible with even the most stable individuals.

01:00:20.660 Yes, so this is where the Lindsay Clancy case

01:00:25.120 and the craze around it.

01:00:28.000 Lindsay Clancy is kind of the crossover

01:00:29.780 between these two examples we've had already

01:00:33.540 of the Shining and the Babadook,

01:00:36.660 that she murdered all three of her children

01:00:40.620 in spite of the fact that she had a husband

01:00:44.920 And the postpartum psychosis claim, like, that specific diagnosis does not line up with the behavior as far as I've seen. 0.94

01:00:57.040 so so my my interpretation is and the reason i think that uh that uh the women of the internet

01:01:06.880 were so so keen to blame the husband in spite of fact that he like very plainly did nothing

01:01:13.880 did nothing and there's no evidence he killed his he was the real killer is because the real reason 0.92

01:01:20.840 lindsey clancy did it is because she'd come to believe her husband was probably a loser 0.97

01:01:25.960 like uh like there's a reason you you kill all all your children when you have a male provider 1.00

01:01:34.380 present it's because you you've come to believe they're all the runts and you married the runts 0.96

01:01:40.840 and and you need to get out of that situation and you have this inflated sense of your own value or

01:01:49.300 maybe you have an accurate sense of your own value

01:01:51.220 and you actually have married this person incredibly beneath you.

01:01:57.480 And so she became convinced that she deserved better

01:02:05.960 or subconsciously convinced that she despised her husband

01:02:09.900 and despised his children.

01:02:13.400 And that's my interpretation.

01:02:16.500 and that's a combination of the Babadook runty child instinct

01:02:22.180 and the Fast Life Jack Torrance and the Shining instinct.

01:02:31.400 And this, because all these women related to that,

01:02:35.520 because there are all these women who like, like you see... 1.00

01:02:38.820 Well, they probably all related to the desire to kill their children 1.00

01:02:45.300 and also the inability to control their emotions 0.91

01:02:49.120 and the fear that they might do something outrageous

01:02:52.500 in that state of emotional lack of control.

01:02:55.880 They probably related to that. 0.77

01:02:56.940 This is probably unstable women who saw themselves in, 1.00

01:03:01.600 well, certainly because they're woke campaigners, 0.98

01:03:03.920 who saw themselves in Lindsay Clancy

01:03:06.860 and identified with her.

01:03:10.400 And it would be disempowering for them

01:03:12.820 and it would be frightening for them,

01:03:14.240 for a person like them

01:03:16.700 to be held responsible for their actions

01:03:19.440 which they do during a basically

01:03:20.940 kind of bizarre childlike

01:03:23.220 state

01:03:24.560 I think that's

01:03:25.900 that's it, that's what I would say

01:03:28.920 Alright

01:03:31.540 and Lindsay Clancy

01:03:35.020 in particular, have you followed the case much

01:03:37.260 or have you tried to avoid it?

01:03:39.620 Yes, I've done some videos

01:03:41.280 Alright

01:03:41.600 yeah i have followed it so it seems to me i mean they diagnosed her with uh bipolar two

01:03:50.740 was it bipolar two bipolar bipolar anyway uh which which often crosses over with this uh

01:03:57.400 this thing that i'm particularly interested in borderline personality if you look at her

01:04:00.460 behavior patterns you have suicidal behavior and suicidal ideation such that she um 1.00

01:04:07.080 researched suicide methods on the internet. You have severe depression, despair and intrusive

01:04:13.380 thoughts. You have problems regulating emotion. You have really a kind of bizarre impulsivity

01:04:21.780 in the sense of things like messing around with her medication. This is a very dangerous,

01:04:27.000 very dangerous thing to do. And she knew it was a dangerous thing to do because she's a qualified 1.00

01:04:31.180 nurse and she had a biology degree and then if she is to be believed you have you have dissociation

01:04:38.860 and psychosis and so this gives her five of the symptoms of borderline personality disorder

01:04:46.360 which is enough for a diagnosis but if we if we remove the dissociation and psychosis because

01:04:52.880 we only have her word on that then then we have four so it is it is sub-clinical um but it is

01:05:00.680 indicative though those kinds of traits they are indicative of a fast life history kind of a person

01:05:06.120 the thing is that nobody has said you would think that if she did have something like that

01:05:10.400 then her mother-in-law or her husband would have commented on her completely unreasonable behavior

01:05:17.740 and they would have they would have noted that that she would have idealized and de-idealized

01:05:22.460 she would have she would have worshipped her husband and then told him how awful he was and

01:05:28.000 hated him and then gone back to worshipping him again and all of this sort of thing which which

01:05:32.900 we we don't see no one seems to testify that she was an anti-social person so this is this is um

01:05:40.580 this is rather odd in terms of it being anything to do with a with a sort of personality disorder

01:05:47.640 or something like that.

01:05:49.960 But we do have a number of the traits.

01:05:52.480 And you can get broader cluster B kind of people

01:05:56.640 that don't have any of these personality disorders

01:05:59.740 but have a number of the traits.

01:06:01.280 So she could be something like that.

01:06:03.600 Certainly it is very unlikely

01:06:07.080 that postpartum depression

01:06:11.780 would still be going on

01:06:13.440 eight months after she'd had the baby.

01:06:15.640 that's extraordinarily rare and it is very unlikely that a psychotic break would just it's

01:06:24.380 so convenient that it would just suddenly happen and and then never happen again and and then she

01:06:30.780 tries to kill herself and not very successfully and then uh kills all her children uh and and

01:06:37.540 so i have a friend who's a psychiatrist argued that in a state of narrow psychosis so you can

01:06:44.740 get a person who is perfectly normal in every way except in as much as they are convinced

01:06:51.740 that they are being stalked by a giant hedgehog right who can be anything up to 250 yards long

01:06:59.240 but in all other ways they are normal really so so it is it is it is it is possible or they're

01:07:07.080 going to be a bit fast life history strategist or whatever but they're not going to be crazy

01:07:10.560 and so it is possible for you to be planful and scheming and and to be planful as it were

01:07:18.660 while in a kind of psychosis a very narrow psychosis and the argument of the defense

01:07:24.920 is that basically she wanted to kill herself and she concluded that the children wouldn't

01:07:30.680 be able to cope without her and therefore she had to kill the children but but so there is 0.86

01:07:38.460 there's that argument but then on the other hand there would probably have been some kind of hint 1.00

01:07:44.220 but leading up to a major psychotic break because that's what we're talking about a major psychotic 0.99

01:07:49.540 break of minor psychotic breaks and she kept a detailed kind of diary to try and ground herself

01:07:57.360 what was going on of her symptoms and that kind of thing leading up to what happened and she didn't

01:08:01.940 mention anything about anything of this kind. So it does seem rather too good to be true,

01:08:08.540 I think. And I think that a model that a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist has suggested is

01:08:16.180 basically that you're probably dealing with quite a narcissistic woman, perhaps a vulnerable

01:08:22.740 narcissist, because if that was the case, then she'd be more in control of her emotions than

01:08:27.440 a borderline and so she wouldn't come across necessarily to people except perhaps her husband

01:08:33.820 as as unreasonable as she would be highly manipulative so a kind of vulnerable narcissist

01:08:38.360 kind of a person who decides that her husband isn't giving her the attention that she deserves

01:08:45.080 and so one of the ways that you can punish him the really severe way you can punish him 0.99

01:08:50.220 is by killing his children and then killing yourself and then at that spiteful suicide 0.99

01:08:55.780 And then at that moment, at that moment that you do it, that you die, I mean, it's maladaptive, but at that moment that you do it, you have a sense of power and control in the end. 0.99

01:09:07.680 So that's one way of interpreting it. The idea that they are, that he's a useless loser is not, as far as I can see, consistent with what we know about him. 0.89

01:09:20.400 I get the impression that he's a successful man. 0.92

01:09:26.880 I don't see how that doesn't seem to me.

01:09:31.460 I would argue that it would be like a misfiring of her

01:09:37.760 or that to us he would seem successful,

01:09:43.400 but within their relationship,

01:09:44.960 he might have been overly subservient

01:09:47.760 or uh or that he might have behaved in in like mire ways that we consider just like

01:09:54.580 oh he lets his wife walk all over and whatnot you know you know uh normal people would just

01:10:01.060 josh him that's interesting but but within the social context of her seeing him him and like

01:10:07.740 especially if she's like uh like floaty and not like really looking at the objective physical

01:10:14.380 reality of it like uh his his individual behavior behavior around her might might provoke this rage

01:10:24.880 within within her yes that's that's that's interesting because if i in my book on the

01:10:30.060 borderline women you find that the the men they are attracted to is narcissists grandiose narcissists

01:10:38.540 right uh and this makes sense because they have a narcissistic element to them they oscillate

01:10:44.020 between narcissism and collapse, they fear abandonment and they have all these negative

01:10:51.660 feelings and they see the world's a dangerous place and they desperately basically want someone

01:10:54.680 to kind of look after them and that sort of thing. They want a saviour. That's what they want.

01:11:00.200 They want a male saviour. They want a person they can idealise, a special person, because they

01:11:05.860 deserve a special person because they're special. So from an even genetic perspective, like attracts

01:11:10.840 like. Narcissism is related to borderline personality, similar genes, we tend to be

01:11:16.460 attracted to people that are genetically similar to ourselves. And then from a purely practical

01:11:21.760 perspective, the narcissist will like being idealised by the borderline in the first phase

01:11:26.980 of the relationship, so he gets a lot out of it, and the borderline will, who is herself a bit

01:11:32.040 narcissistic, will see the narcissist as special, she deserves a special person, she wants to be

01:11:36.940 looked after this person has high status this person's successful because narcissism predicts

01:11:41.620 being successful so and and he's my savior and he's wonderful so she gets something out of it

01:11:46.320 now they don't tend to end up with those kinds of men because when they idealize those kinds of men

01:11:51.800 when they when they when they split then those kinds of men they will they'll end the relationship

01:11:55.840 they won't they won't have this stuff they're far too high in their self-confidence to be able to

01:11:59.300 accept this kind of treatment and so what they end up with is men who like them have have things

01:12:05.900 like anxiety and depression but they have kind of avoidant personality this sort of thing um uh and

01:12:13.040 and so and so they're generally similar in the sense of depression and anxiety and things like

01:12:17.180 that but they're basically they just let these women walk all over them uh and they let these

01:12:22.180 women just destroy them essentially and and they're so low in self-esteem and they have such

01:12:27.260 weak attachment styles that they think insecure attachment styles that they think to themselves 0.99

01:12:31.200 god i've lucked out i'm not gonna do any better than this and then they become addicted to these

01:12:35.380 to these women by sort of the trauma bond,

01:12:37.440 the love bombing, and then they daren't leave.

01:12:39.700 Whereas the narcissist has enough confidence

01:12:41.960 to say, no, I'm not having this, I'm going.

01:12:45.140 So that's what their husbands tend to be like.

01:12:46.960 They're less narcissistic and grandiose and amazing 1.00

01:12:50.060 and more just kind of pathetic men. 0.99

01:12:54.360 And so it's possible that, yeah, you're right, 0.99

01:12:57.640 that that's what she then sees him as.

01:12:59.720 And those kind of anxious,

01:13:00.520 anxious, like a sort of wet blanket men

01:13:04.720 on the outside, often look like successful people because they're very afraid of loss

01:13:11.720 because they will build these successful, you know, established homes and careers and whatnot.

01:13:18.420 And they'll stick with, like, what might be a miserable job for 10 years and actually work their way up

01:13:23.960 because they assume there isn't something out there.

01:13:27.380 And the dynamic, the stereotype dynamic you'll see in cartoons and whatnot, that's like, oh, that's so true.

01:13:34.720 is uh this wealthy man who's like beholden to to his shrewish shrewish wife and then she'll leave

01:13:43.840 him for for a like drug addict who who like rides a motorcycle the stereotype of like the wealthy

01:13:52.500 woman leaving her husband her wealthy husband for her drug addict boyfriend is but who's who's 0.61

01:13:59.980 who's the narcissist who's the white boy who who see who is who is who is of high status

01:14:05.540 well he's normally he would be of higher status than a drug addict but but who is of high status 0.62

01:14:10.680 on the savannah yeah yeah as it were that kind of man the bigger man the more muscular man the more

01:14:15.420 dominant man and and there's a degree to which that it is even now in our current uh evolutionary

01:14:21.300 situation those kinds of men are the one the the genius type as it were those kinds of as we talked

01:14:27.780 about earlier the low agreeable what is the genius it's it's high intelligence plus plus what's this 0.67

01:14:32.500 um plus uh there's an image with a oh someone jumped in i'm going to kick kick him we're

01:14:41.280 recording at the moment right sorry um so so yes so you that that kind of person and that kind of

01:14:48.560 person uh with the right trait combination will achieve high status and that's what they'll be

01:14:52.760 very very interested in high status plus the narcissism uh what that man or perhaps to some

01:15:00.700 extent just the the bully boy type high status what that man is offering is middling status

01:15:06.020 let's assume not narcissism but but he's ordered and controlled and neurotic and so he he kind of

01:15:13.580 gets places and this this uh you could argue yes i think i agree with you it could really really

01:15:18.060 turns her off and then from an evolutionary perspective she'll want a way out of it and 0.98

01:15:22.900 she has no way out of it uh but one way out of it for a certain kind of woman is is indeed to um 1.00

01:15:28.860 to remove the offspring and then leave the husband and then her mate she's not got this 1.00

01:15:35.020 this limited mate value that she would have if she had his his his low status offspring i i can

01:15:41.100 see how she might think that way possibly yes and so my concede and i've been working on an essay

01:15:47.520 like this in the back of my mind forever is that that this uh this intrafamilial sexual competition

01:15:55.980 this uh these cases where the normal um the normal alignment of interests that you see in a family

01:16:04.840 usually you're you're uh you're about 50 related to your child uh uh brothers and siblings are

01:16:13.320 If I remember the Mendel correctly, brothers and siblings, sisters are about 25% related, or maybe they're 50% related as well.

01:16:25.040 Yeah, 50% related.

01:16:26.480 They are.

01:16:28.000 Oh, half siblings, it's 25% related.

01:16:32.560 Half siblings, 25%, yeah.

01:16:33.940 uh that usually this is quite enough to uh basically you're going to treat your family

01:16:41.580 and all but like the most intimate things as extension of yourself that like uh like if you

01:16:47.740 buy food you will give it you will gladly give it to your family members if they're hungry if you

01:16:53.040 you'll gladly share your home with with them etc uh but at these extreme edges we see these like

01:17:00.680 break down in horrifying ways and these are staples of of uh of western culture and

01:17:09.480 the stories of this are are staples of like the best drama in horror culture

01:17:15.520 culture that uh if you if you start fishing around you start seeing these these uh these

01:17:24.580 bizarre homicidal ideations, ideations and audits at the extreme. So, and this can manifest as

01:17:32.600 either homicide or as incest, because if you think of incest, part of the reason it's so,

01:17:38.880 like most incest is not consensual incest. Most incest, like there are weird cases

01:17:45.580 at the extreme, both at the extremes of

01:17:51.060 basically the only place you find consensual incest

01:17:55.220 in the historical record is in royal families.

01:18:01.820 So like the ancient Egyptians would marry brother and sister

01:18:06.140 or Caligula and his sister. 0.59

01:18:09.100 You also find it if the Westermark effect hasn't hit him.

01:18:14.260 The Westermark effect.

01:18:15.580 so it's this idea that if you to avoid incest if you are brought up and research on kibbutzes

01:18:24.820 where children are brought up in common demonstrates this to avoid incest we are not

01:18:31.600 sexually attracted to people whom we are brought up with below a certain age and this happens even

01:18:39.560 if we are not related to those children, as the research on kibbutzes demonstrates.

01:18:45.300 So then if we are separated for whatever reason from a sibling when we are young and we don't

01:18:51.560 meet that sibling until we are into puberty, then the Westerbark effect does not hit in,

01:18:59.340 with the result that in so much as we sexually select for genetic similarity, and in so much

01:19:04.560 as your sibling is 50% the same as you, you will then find your sibling unbelievably

01:19:09.200 and intensely attractive really and there have been cases yes and there have been cases of

01:19:14.360 siblings that have been adopted separately and then by chance they meet each other when they're

01:19:19.360 adults and they absolutely it's the most intense love um and um and then they discover that they

01:19:25.640 are actually siblings or half siblings so that's the so that explains uh the legend of of uh sigurd

01:19:33.760 in Sigiland, famously in Wagner's Ring Cycle. These two children of Odin are separated and

01:19:45.000 then meet, and it's love at first sight. And they're so passionately attracted to each other,

01:19:51.980 and their son is, their son is, what is it, Siegfried, Siegfried who slays, who slays the

01:20:07.540 dragon. But at least in Wagner's version, they're, because they have violated the rules

01:20:19.100 on incest their their curse and uh and odin has to kill uh sigmund for sleeping with his sister

01:20:26.400 sister and this this starts like the second half of the uh drama romance cycle because one of the

01:20:33.920 valkyries who's also daughter of uh odin she tries to stop odin so odin curses her for disobeying him

01:20:41.340 but then he regrets it because she disobeyed him because she knew that wotan uh actually

01:20:46.340 loves Sigurd and stuff so she's cursed to be mortal but then she falls in love with Sig

01:20:54.080 Freed like uh when when he wakes her with a kiss from her like 80 year slumber uh basically

01:21:00.500 basically all of uh the Disney uh like tropes around uh you know princess is cursed to sleep

01:21:08.240 and all all this stuff love at first sight all that's taken from like Norse mythology

01:21:13.620 but made family-friendly.

01:21:15.980 Like, there's a heavily R-rated, really messed-up version

01:21:21.780 of everything that happens in Disney in Norse mythology, 0.85

01:21:25.960 right down to, like, women singing to the...

01:21:28.560 Well, Disney is based on the fairy tales.

01:21:31.920 Presumably the fairy tales are related to the Norse mythology.

01:21:33.980 Yeah, and the fairy tales are themselves a softening of the Norse mythology

01:21:38.160 in relation to medieval Europe as opposed to ancient Europe.

01:21:43.620 But, no, that's fascinating.

01:21:45.620 There is actually a psychological effect for the Sigurd and Sigland romance.

01:21:52.000 I did not know that.

01:21:54.160 But the—so, Caligula, which I recently did an interview on the film adaptation of, famously was very attracted to his sisters,

01:22:06.240 which he had been raised in army camps away from his family for, like, decades, and this is why he was beloved of the army.

01:22:13.020 So this would explain his paradoxical attraction to his sisters.

01:22:20.620 I thought it was related to them being sort of the top of the pyramid

01:22:27.480 and seeing enemies everywhere outside it,

01:22:31.780 so that basically the only person they could look to sexually 0.99

01:22:38.420 who wasn't conspiring to marry them and then kill them. 0.91

01:22:43.020 in some way, was people who already immediately shared their interest.

01:22:50.160 But no, you've given me a completely different avenue on that.

01:22:57.440 Yes. 0.95

01:22:59.580 I don't know how likely it is that a woman inherently conspires 0.53

01:23:05.760 to kill her husband.

01:23:06.900 In general, in history, they don't tend to do that. 0.98

01:23:09.540 In so much as we have polygamy, you have a high-status husband, the women centre around that high-status husband.

01:23:17.220 Well, when you're emperor of Rome or when you're in the Roman royal family, this becomes, because not necessarily the women conspiring for it, it's all the other noble families. 0.79

01:23:27.780 And the fact that you aren't an established noble family when you're a Julio-Claudian, there are many, many exceptions to every role found in the Julio-Claudian.

01:23:39.540 it's why they're so fascinating

01:23:40.840 right

01:23:44.860 but we're on

01:23:47.200 Lindsay Clancy

01:23:49.080 yes so

01:23:50.560 so the Lindsay

01:23:53.640 Clancy case

01:23:54.980 I think we've

01:23:57.840 covered so it was the

01:23:59.620 intersection of

01:24:00.580 I saw it as the intersection of like

01:24:05.820 the

01:24:06.560 the patriarch killing off the 0.99

01:24:09.540 The family and the mother desire to kill the runty son, Ava. 0.97

01:24:14.660 She was like really the one wearing the pants in the family, which. 1.00

01:24:19.240 My understanding is that the son that there was.

01:24:24.360 What was the name of the oldest son?

01:24:27.360 It was about two years.

01:24:28.580 I'm not sure.

01:24:31.040 It might have been Callum or something.

01:24:32.440 but she actually wrote in an online blog about how this boy was the most difficult

01:24:40.160 person she'd ever met and she and and making him just do normal things was a constant struggle

01:24:48.480 and it was his behavior uh going back to the babadook it was his behavior that was kind of

01:24:55.940 driving her mad she had this particularly difficult son and i read that she killed him first

01:25:02.780 um and i think i read somewhere that she put him his body somewhere else like in her husband's 0.64

01:25:10.740 office room or something like that um and so i wonder and then she killed the daughter and then 0.99

01:25:18.840 she and then she because she knew the son would be this these cooperative and then she tried to 1.00

01:25:23.100 killed but failed to kill the baby and he was found alive and then she cut her wrists cut her 0.90

01:25:29.780 neck and threw herself out of a window so one way of interpreting it is that she basically

01:25:36.980 wanted to get revenge on the husband for producing for her these offspring that she doesn't feel that 0.95

01:25:48.240 she's getting enough help with that she she she doesn't fit she doesn't feel looked after enough

01:25:53.580 she doesn't feel um worshipped enough perhaps even and so she thought she and she's had enough

01:26:01.320 she's totally depressed um life's pointless so she might as well take revenge on her husband 0.88

01:26:06.400 and ruin him and then kill herself i i see that as the as a you you may be right that in parallel 0.97

01:26:14.400 he comes across as a doormat and this disgusts her so maybe maybe yeah the the two things uh 0.98

01:26:21.220 can can come together perhaps all right that that is that is more disturbing than i was imagining

01:26:27.440 uh the image of her consciously separating out his this two-year-old's body uh in a separate

01:26:36.840 room from yeah she killed him first she killed him first and then the girl and and then and then

01:26:43.900 And my understanding is they were separate.

01:26:46.460 They were found separate.

01:26:47.640 All right.

01:26:48.020 So she had to consciously decide that because, like,

01:26:52.500 you think of a mother killing her family and then killing herself.

01:26:57.940 You know, there's this, like, romanticism of, like,

01:27:00.360 oh, we'll all be together.

01:27:02.940 You know, we'll all go together when we go.

01:27:06.100 And that was one of the things which the prosecution attorney,

01:27:11.020 attorney the woman uh raised oh it's not like she tucked them up in bed and killed them like

01:27:16.840 magda goebbels did to her children it wasn't that at all no that's that's that's incredibly disturbing

01:27:25.140 uh i so i had a a number of other odd examples but i think we but uh

01:27:36.760 i'm i'm just wondering if we can follow that up or not that's that's a nerve me uh so so the

01:27:45.460 oh maybe this one is

01:27:49.600 is uh kind of the the natural conclusion of that uh i was going to discuss the flowers in the attic

01:28:00.380 uh we can do do briefly uh so the flowers in the attic is the story of a uh it was a huge hit in

01:28:08.880 the 50s and like the 60s there's a film adaptation in the 70s that didn't quite take off despite

01:28:14.980 people agreeing that's mostly good um or like accurate to the strange book but they

01:28:21.960 They have come to seek refuge

01:28:33.680 Secrets are kept

01:28:35.980 Where the future is haunted by the past

01:28:41.720 Where the innocent live in the shadow of sin

01:28:48.220 where a dark legacy awaits

01:28:52.860 to destroy all who defy it.

01:29:18.220 the one truth they have yet to face

01:29:23.520 my god is the terror no one could imagine

01:29:29.720 flowers in the attic victoria tenant academy award winner louise fletcher

01:29:41.760 based on the best sellers that have shocked 40 million readers worldwide

01:29:46.980 Flowers in the Attic

01:30:06.340 The story of the Flowers in the Attic is that this wealthy mother, this wealthy family, their father dies.

01:30:14.360 and uh the mother and her her her her parents who never approved of the husband she married

01:30:24.680 uh they shut the kids up in the attic of their opulent mansion while they try to uh 0.99

01:30:31.060 wet off the mother to a um well the mother is like searching for a new wealthier husband

01:30:39.060 more of her class and station and and uh instead of killing off the kids they just shut them up in 0.72

01:30:48.460 the attic and the story the book is about uh these kids being raised alone in this attic

01:30:54.880 and uh because they've been isolated for years up up there the uh the siblings uh can only form

01:31:04.360 romantic attachments with each other because they have no no one else and then it turns into this

01:31:09.780 bizarre uh there are like six of these books written like uh like the the children of these

01:31:16.960 characters became became like famous characters in their own right like these sold millions and

01:31:22.940 millions of copies in the 1950s there's something profoundly attractive about this series series of

01:31:28.940 books to uh horror and scandal readers uh but uh the the core relation of uh this

01:31:37.420 like uh the the fact that what i find interesting about this and the way this relates is it's an

01:31:46.420 example of the same dynamic except like uh the the mother has formed a coalition with the

01:31:51.940 grandparents to make this happen like it's not just uh well he's not just uh with her own parents

01:32:00.520 with her own sorry with her own parents not uh not her husband's parents parents uh the husband 0.92

01:32:07.160 was like uh was like a daft and this is where i think it's important that they shut the children 0.97

01:32:14.200 up instead of killing them because uh presumably the husband she ran away with who the grandparents 0.99

01:32:20.880 didn't approve of uh was this uh was an attractive mate to her you know it wasn't a he was an

01:32:29.720 attractive attractive man in many respects or else she wouldn't have run away with a poor man

01:32:35.660 that her her parents didn't approve of it's and uh the children this is core to the story is that

01:32:42.720 the children believed they lived in the perfect happiest family with a wonderful mother and a

01:32:47.900 wonderful father right up until their father died in an unrelated car accident and and this is like

01:32:58.140 you still see video essays and stuff about this series that this is a puzzled and like perplexed

01:33:05.020 people ever since and yet in such a way that people cannot put these books down

01:33:09.720 and specifically and like I said they made like five or six of these books like the incest

01:33:19.300 relationship between the siblings coming out of this has been like like it's infamous but it's

01:33:28.180 also been like weirdly compelling to audiences ever since and that like the the running gothic

01:33:33.760 drama of uh this this uh family has been compelling to readers for like six or seven decades

01:33:43.440 and i was wondering if anything odd was jumping out at you about this because it

01:33:49.140 like it jumped out to me that it that's like oh this doesn't fit the pattern at all a they're

01:33:54.640 not killing the kids but b like the mother uh there there's a scene i remember from the film

01:34:01.040 adaptation where the mother comes in giddy to her children she wants to tell them about uh

01:34:06.500 oh she's had success this new wonderful rich man is attracted to her and her children are just acting

01:34:12.600 asking so can we come out of the attic then and the mother gets infuriated at them that they're

01:34:19.260 uh that they're risking her chances and like like it's the most uncanny and nerving scene of her

01:34:27.120 ever seen and

01:34:29.500 in just

01:34:31.320 the

01:34:31.920 like it's the exception of the

01:34:35.400 exception of the exception

01:34:36.940 this dynamic that they've developed and yet

01:34:39.320 and yet it's like

01:34:40.900 has been spellbinding for audiences

01:34:43.220 of like weird

01:34:45.380 obscure scandal literature

01:34:46.840 So if you want me to

01:34:51.340 engage in what my colleague

01:34:53.480 Dr. Paul Taylor would call

01:34:55.060 crass darwinism you know like a reductive darwinian explanation as i i have this is

01:35:01.620 a really bizarre story you've you've told me and i just had a quick look at the wikipedia page on it

01:35:06.500 um so what i'm imagining is you have a very my understanding is you have a very wealthy virginia

01:35:16.460 family uh the virginia aristocracy right planters whatever this malcolm uh foxworth

01:35:23.220 and you can imagine

01:35:26.380 they're going to be a bit

01:35:27.860 fast life history strategic and highly intelligent

01:35:31.100 a bit sort of dark triad

01:35:32.700 and that's why they're so wealthy

01:35:34.080 they're going to have a daughter

01:35:36.400 who's going to inherit those kinds of traits

01:35:38.960 those kind of dark triad traits

01:35:40.720 and so you can see how 0.97

01:35:42.440 if she is a

01:35:44.200 narcissist or a borderline

01:35:46.880 or whatever 0.98

01:35:47.360 she might 0.62

01:35:48.520 in a youthful rebellion

01:35:51.860 engage in a very intense relationship with some young man who's totally unsuitable and as we

01:36:00.000 mentioned earlier the druggie type or whatever my understanding is that he eventually they

01:36:04.800 lose all their money um and and so it doesn't it it it breaks down so she's rebelled she's done

01:36:11.140 this rebellious thing she's shaken out of it by being in in poverty uh and so she goes back to

01:36:17.560 her parents she realizes she's Machiavellian and she wants money and whatever and she's done the 0.84

01:36:22.580 wrong thing the children now disgust her because the children remind her of the useless husband 0.94

01:36:27.360 that's died that she should never have done this with and it was a mistake and so she doesn't want 0.97

01:36:33.580 them anymore but she can't bring herself to kill them maybe because it's set in the 50s or whatever 0.92

01:36:38.020 she's not probably going to get away with killing them perhaps she's concerned about that how would 0.92

01:36:41.380 she'd get away with killing them so instead she decides to keep them in the attic and then she 0.99

01:36:47.960 gets a new chap who is suitable and the last thing she wants is for her mate value to be reduced

01:36:53.920 by being revealed that she has three children so I suppose it the attic thing is odd I mean why not

01:36:59.800 just put them up for adoption or something but perhaps that I could apparently the grandparents

01:37:03.540 don't even know about the children that's why they have to go into the attic isn't it so um

01:37:08.460 So, yeah, I suppose you can see how it kind of makes sense 0.99

01:37:14.480 for a particularly dark pragmatist sort of woman 1.00

01:37:19.760 who is also a bit unstable to behave like that.

01:37:24.440 But it seems it's a stretch.

01:37:27.540 And the incest is a severe stretch

01:37:29.280 because they've been brought up together,

01:37:31.180 so they would find each other repellent.

01:37:33.460 it would be very it would be i wouldn't expect the incest particularly to develop unless it

01:37:40.020 was kind of pressured apparently that in this in this film the another woman another chap gets

01:37:45.880 involved with one of the twins and her brother goes mad one of one of there's a boy and a girl

01:37:52.040 right and corian and uh yes yes so so this is what i wanted your reaction for is uh is because

01:38:05.100 obviously the because this is like kind of the formula for uh if you want to create a really

01:38:13.240 good like horror scandal drama you throw a bunch of stuff like this against the wall and see what

01:38:19.280 see what sticks and uh i wanted to get your reaction to this because this was a huge hit and

01:38:25.780 yet i could not explain it for the life of me like how does how does that add up what's quite

01:38:31.200 the logic of that that and part of me thinks that uh that it was that it was compelling for reasons

01:38:42.540 unrelated to its accuracy accuracy that it was uh that was saying something that a bunch of people

01:38:49.480 wanted to hear here or like uh telling a story in a way that was appealing to an audience

01:38:55.920 but uh wasn't actually ringing

01:38:58.160 ringing true and so i i wanted to

01:39:04.600 to get your reaction to that because that that is always the one that i'm like

01:39:12.540 It doesn't make sense to me that it would work like that.

01:39:16.700 It's like getting my reaction to that. 1.00

01:39:18.460 What's that rubbish book that women like watching the Netflix version of where the women wear red? 0.99

01:39:24.520 Yes, The Handmaid's Tale. 0.99

01:39:28.060 Absolute, from an evolutionary perspective, absolute nonsense is nonsense. 0.99

01:39:34.520 Those women who were fertile would be worth their weight in gold. 0.99

01:39:39.760 the high status men would abandon their infertile upper class wives and they would strongly compete 0.95

01:39:47.260 for those women and those women would be heavily protected by the menfolk in their family and they 0.94

01:39:52.920 would get the best possible standard of male mate possible that is what would happen that's clearly

01:39:58.820 what would happen it's a total nonsense of a story it's rubbish but it's attractive to people 0.68

01:40:05.880 to women to a certain kind of woman who is a feminist and sees herself as a bit feminist 0.93

01:40:11.420 because it's it backs up her idea that men are these very bad people and women are these lovely 0.99

01:40:17.160 people and we have to keep up the current sociological theory of victimization

01:40:22.260 yeah victimization it backs up her idea that women are victims and men are dominant and and and and

01:40:29.360 women have to fight to stop being victims and in the end the women will fight and the women will

01:40:34.440 win and they will feel better about themselves

01:40:36.600 and everything bad in their life is the fault of men

01:40:38.540 and this kind of, as you say, this kind of vulnerable

01:40:40.680 narcissist trait 1.00

01:40:42.180 in certain kinds of feminist women 1.00

01:40:44.700 and so presumably, in so much 0.73

01:40:46.860 as what you've presented to me, Flowers in the Attic

01:40:48.740 it's just nonsense

01:40:49.820 it's just some author's mind 0.95

01:40:52.640 vomit, clearly, and it clearly

01:40:54.540 didn't happen and it wouldn't happen

01:40:56.020 just like Handmaid's Tale, it wouldn't happen

01:40:58.820 it's insane

01:41:00.280 it doesn't fit with what we know about human psychology

01:41:03.080 then thank you there has to be something there has to be something to it that's attracting people

01:41:11.220 and i suppose it's the the the sort of weird titillation of incest uh you know it's it's it's

01:41:21.580 it's the idea that beneath a middle-class normal respectable family there's something evil

01:41:28.260 and so you or an upper class family and so you could feel a bit better about yourself as a

01:41:33.240 middle class person that these upper class people you know they're evil and depraved perhaps that's

01:41:37.040 what makes it attractive um are there lots i mean in terms of a film are there lots of nude scenes

01:41:42.720 in it and gratuitous nudity i can't recall anything anything like that in the film version

01:41:48.220 like a huge so like part of the the appeal of the series as far as i can tell was um there's

01:41:57.080 this intense romanticism of this like isolation that uh that uh like a huge part of the like what

01:42:06.480 i remember about the film version that i saw was uh was just uh the like really expressive sets

01:42:15.060 within like the confined confined setting the children like having these imaginary games that

01:42:21.100 they were playing that were like very innocent and childlike it was kind of like it was kind of

01:42:26.120 like a weird twisted Alice in Wonderland kind of kind of vibe to it that it had this like weird

01:42:34.460 romanticization of an extended childhood but but you're being oppressed but there's this like

01:42:41.220 romantic element but there's this evil mother and and uh the like weirdly the experience of

01:42:49.020 reading the story was like like very oddly oddly expressive it or at least that that's what i got

01:42:58.180 from the film version i i haven't actually read read the book but that that was my interpretation

01:43:03.820 of like the pacing of it that was like partly the weirdness and like the otherworldly oddness of it

01:43:10.600 like uh like tapped into something but that that's why i want to ask you about the scenario

01:43:18.820 and that crude Darwinist interpretation.

01:43:20.820 Like, was there anything to that?

01:43:22.180 It doesn't sound very likely that she cares so little about these children

01:43:28.760 that she's kept their existence secret from her parents,

01:43:33.180 or at least from her grandfather.

01:43:35.160 She hides them in the attic.

01:43:38.760 Apparently, from what I've read online,

01:43:40.800 they're emaciated and starving and ill and things like this.

01:43:45.180 I think it's much more likely that she would just abandon the children 0.96

01:43:48.500 or put them up for adoption or foster care or something like that.

01:43:52.280 It doesn't make any sense that she would...

01:43:54.400 The idea that she's attached enough to them that she wants to keep them,

01:43:58.840 but at the same time she doesn't feed them properly

01:44:00.900 and she keeps them in the attic and she won't tell her father about them.

01:44:04.860 It doesn't fit to me.

01:44:06.940 She would either be... 0.88

01:44:08.040 I think she would be low in attachment to them and she would abandon them.

01:44:11.000 Yes, so the important element,

01:44:14.340 at least from the depiction of the grandfather I saw, 0.91

01:44:16.780 was that Usling. 0.75

01:44:18.500 kind of um what would you what would you say like a like a um like unfit like he was wheelchair

01:44:28.540 bound or like uh was being taken care of largely by the grandmother who was aware but despised the

01:44:34.880 kids the kids but oh we can't let the grandfather know or else he might write you out of the will

01:44:41.540 in a fit of like a semi-senile rage um this is this is like a like every individual element

01:44:53.080 is so weirdly specific enough that just might work but it's so weird and like discordant with

01:45:01.180 yeah it's it's it's it's it's it's really it's just it's it's just really unlikely it's just

01:45:08.600 it's like it's just bad it's just bad writing yeah so that's it doesn't it's not that's why

01:45:13.840 i want to get your reaction to it because i'm like well let's see the most discordant

01:45:19.460 version of this yeah it doesn't it doesn't make any sense it doesn't make it doesn't make it it's

01:45:25.740 like it really reminds me of the handmaid's tale it's just very poor plotting it doesn't make it's

01:45:31.500 not what they wouldn't do things like that it doesn't make sense like in this handmaid's tale

01:45:36.600 there's this girl and she disobeys

01:45:39.080 the rules, one of the handmaids 0.99

01:45:40.640 so they blind her in one eye 1.00

01:45:42.100 well that's not going to make her particularly sexually 0.98

01:45:44.920 attractive to the kind of men that are going to want to have 0.77

01:45:46.800 why would you do that?

01:45:49.440 you're damaging something that is of 1.00

01:45:50.860 incredible value, that's a stupid 0.99

01:45:53.040 thing to do, you wouldn't do that if you owned a 1.00

01:45:55.020 slave, and these are essentially slaves

01:45:56.880 you wouldn't cut one of his hands off

01:45:59.020 unless you had an abundant 1.00

01:46:00.620 slaves to take his place

01:46:02.820 it doesn't make any sense, these things are being

01:46:05.060 invested in and they're worth they're worth a lot and you want them to be pretty and beautiful

01:46:08.460 it's a terrible story handmaid's tale and it's evolutionarily illiterate it's like 50 shades of

01:46:14.800 gray for feminists and 50 shades of gray is also insane um and um you know i'm just not having it 1.00

01:46:22.540 it's that story doesn't make that story doesn't make sense it's basic level it doesn't make sense

01:46:28.860 the incest doesn't yes and the the the interpretation of it as far as i can tell

01:46:35.100 is interpreting why it's doing so successfully it's by the fact that makes no no sense like

01:46:41.800 trying to figure out well is this the appeal is this the appeal but uh yeah i don't i don't i

01:46:47.840 don't know what the appeal is but i guess there must be an appeal to the idea of rich wealthy

01:46:52.620 important people ultimately being weird sadistic nutcases uh and that that that perhaps is yes

01:47:01.080 um like it either so so uh the final kind of work that i found that really touch it touch on this

01:47:11.080 theme which is like really the darkest of these and the least famous of them like no one's heard

01:47:17.240 of this movie uh it's a docudrama uh no child of mine uh and uh and the plot of it is a base on a

01:47:29.920 real case of a um a girl who her parents divorce and uh and this you'll see immediately why it was

01:47:43.700 not a pop your head is because it was accurate to like something that happens shockingly often or

01:47:50.540 like uh an extreme case of things that happen shockingly often uh so no child of mine uh

01:47:58.360 uh this 10 year old girl whose name is change change for the film uh her her mother linda and

01:48:06.900 her father divorced and her mother marries and like starts dating another man who uh starts

01:48:17.440 sexually abusing the the young girl carrie and uh and you're already reacting exactly as i thought

01:48:28.540 and the mother becoming aware of this instead of uh you know immediately separated from the

01:48:35.500 fanning calling the police uh starts participating in the abuse because of course my interpretation

01:48:43.360 would be that she quickly intuits that her sexual market value with the young girl 0.99

01:48:49.200 like uh she would not be able to get a man of this caliber without the uh to put it very crudely 1.00

01:48:56.720 the package deal and that she starts participating in the abuse to hold on to this uh this new man 0.99

01:49:05.140 that she's gotten well uh this ends and the uh and the the carrie goes to live with her 1.00

01:49:17.840 her father uh uh her father manipulates her into prostitution basically her biological father once 0.99

01:49:28.520 he gets, gets her back. And, and this continues until finally she winds up in the foster care 0.97

01:49:37.440 system. Uh, but, uh, at this point she struggles to settle in. She repeatedly acts out, uh, 0.76

01:49:45.440 destroys property and fundamentally makes it impossible for like her foster family to keep her.

01:49:51.820 and and then to a large extent uh a lot of the rest of her life is uh her childhood is spent

01:50:04.300 in social services and uh she in like group homes and stuff and she's abused repeatedly

01:50:13.500 within the group homes and uh the story ends off it's an it it has an uplifting ending

01:50:21.600 in that she obtains her high school diploma

01:50:27.940 and she goes on to university in spite of her hardships.

01:50:30.860 And there's a title card that she overcame it

01:50:34.400 and she's living, allegedly living a full life

01:50:40.680 in spite of all this abuse she suffered as a child.

01:50:44.380 And just describing this,

01:50:46.540 like you can tell immediately why this movie

01:50:49.600 was not a hit like any of the other ones we've discussed

01:50:53.360 or why this story is not at all attractive to anyone

01:50:56.740 to linger on because...

01:51:01.600 It's also quite realistic with the exception of the ending. 0.90

01:51:05.780 So you've basically got a father who's a psychopath 0.92

01:51:08.020 and a nasty person and a dark triad kind of guy. 0.99

01:51:11.380 You've got a mother. 0.98

01:51:12.560 The fact that she participates in the abuse

01:51:14.500 strongly implies that she's putting herself above her child. 1.00

01:51:18.180 She's utterly selfish and nasty and so on, but is unable to give away the child or even sees the 1.00

01:51:25.860 child as an advantage. I don't know about that, but for whatever reason, she stays with the child, 0.97

01:51:30.500 but then she realises that in order to keep the husband, she'd better turn a blind eye to him

01:51:35.060 behaving like this. So, psychopathic, damaged kind of woman. They have lots of fights and so forth. 0.99

01:51:40.500 The daughter then, probably for genetic reasons alone, reflects those kinds of traits and she's 0.59

01:51:45.300 violent and difficult and so forth and self-sabotaging and probably quite a sort of a borderline because

01:51:51.700 the environmental thing that predicts that, although it's half genetic, is unstable childhood

01:51:56.340 where love is unpredictable, which would almost certainly be the case with parents like that.

01:52:00.340 One minute they lie to you and the next minute they just randomly hit you, you know, you can't, 0.68

01:52:04.580 love is unpredictable as to when it comes and when it doesn't and so she behaves like that. 0.96

01:52:10.100 She's abused in the foster care system because of course who is going to be in the foster care 0.99

01:52:13.940 system other than genetically damaged genetically sort of psychopathic essentially children that's

01:52:21.040 going to be in a who's attracted to work in that kind of system well there's a degree to which we

01:52:25.040 all know that men that are attracted to children of course going to want to work in a system like

01:52:30.320 that so it makes sense that these kind of things would happen uh and uh it seems to be most unlikely

01:52:35.920 that she would go to university but uh anyway um at least they give her that they that sort of

01:52:42.520 possible happy ending but this all this all was very dark and bleak and it makes sense yeah so

01:52:47.440 the fact so as far as i can tell was bait reading the wikipedia page and other stuff on it um the

01:52:57.200 reason they adapted it as far as i can tell is because the girl they they adapted it that it's

01:53:03.220 based on uh they selected out the girl who did go to university in spite of because they're like

01:53:10.520 And there are just certainly thousands and thousands of stories like this across the Anglosphere and, like, the world in general.

01:53:20.080 And so why are you adapting this specific story?

01:53:24.660 Oh, we're adapting the story of the inspiring girl who overcame all this to go to university.

01:53:29.400 And it's profoundly unlikely, but you can find the exception and tell an uplifting story about the exception.

01:53:37.700 and that well yeah i suppose you'd have to be reasonably intelligent at least not these days

01:53:45.620 but back then when it was 1997 it was made you'd have to be reasonably intelligent back then to go

01:53:50.440 to university uh and and so then this met this makes the them to be underclass like that this

01:53:56.520 makes the uh dark triad behavior traits for parents all the more pronounced them to be in

01:54:03.140 that kind of situation where the child has ended up in foster care um so uh yeah this is of course

01:54:10.060 we only have her word to go on i assume so that's interesting in terms of one of the things i look

01:54:16.420 at my book on borderline personality which she has traits of this character kerry is that they 0.99

01:54:21.480 do tend to lie and they tend to lie and say they've been abused in order to get attention 0.72

01:54:27.460 in order to bond with men

01:54:30.300 and make the man feel like a knight in armour saviour.

01:54:33.080 They tend to exaggerate.

01:54:34.360 They tend to have warped memories.

01:54:36.280 So I wonder, actually,

01:54:39.180 did these things even necessarily happen to this Carrie person?

01:54:42.140 Or did she just say they did?

01:54:43.320 Yeah, or assemble them from the experiences

01:54:46.960 of other girls she met

01:54:48.620 to create the story of her own triumph.

01:54:51.940 Yeah, yeah.

01:54:53.720 Yeah, exactly.

01:54:54.600 That seems to me to be, in so much as at the moment you've probably heard of Jason O'Day, 0.60

01:55:00.000 this narcissist and fantasist who was a professor of education at Cambridge, a black man, 0.90

01:55:04.340 and his whole life turned out to be a complete lie and a fantasy. 0.96

01:55:08.220 And then in the end he committed suicide, a kind of spiteful suicide, to make people feel guilty.

01:55:13.880 So I'm very sceptical these days. 0.98

01:55:16.000 If a woman that has personality traits like that, i.e. the bad behaviour, the borderline type personality traits, 1.00

01:55:22.140 those kinds of people ironically are prone to lie but ironically if you have been physically or

01:55:28.760 sexually abused then one of the ways you deal with this is via dissociation and it actually

01:55:33.440 makes you more likely to lie so ironically even if something has happened to her something she'll

01:55:38.860 be like to embellish it and exaggerate it and thus be and thus not be believed at all potentially

01:55:46.880 but in this case she has been right so so what we'd expect is that all these individual episodes

01:55:53.660 are truths are probably true of someone because all of them largely like are yeah all of them

01:56:01.080 are grounded like uh so presumably they're stitched together they're events that happen

01:56:07.520 to someone and then uh yeah but not all of them but but not all of them happened to her oh she's

01:56:14.920 sexually abused at home then she's sexually abused by a mum essentially as well then she's sexually

01:56:18.940 abused by her dad and then she's sexually abused in foster care her whole life is just one law 0.95

01:56:24.140 she is the most tragic person she's the ultimate victim well that's what a vulnerable narcissist is

01:56:30.140 the ultimate victim and vulnerable narcissism as i said crosses over with bpd and so yeah i i'd be

01:56:36.740 quite skeptical i wouldn't be shocked if there there is a subset of like 0.86

01:56:42.640 a few a few hundred or a few thousand girls across the west who who rolled one one on the

01:56:52.460 die like uh that many times in a row and just got like unlucky that sequentially but i would not 0.96

01:56:58.940 expect one of those girls to be to be then going to university and then having a film adaptation 1.00

01:57:05.440 of their life, life made.

01:57:08.640 No, it sounds much more like this is just,

01:57:11.100 this is the borderline.

01:57:12.840 And the fact that we don't know her surname

01:57:15.880 means we can't even check these things

01:57:17.880 and we can't even talk to people that know her and so forth.

01:57:21.200 So my immediate reaction is this is exactly the kind of a tale

01:57:25.000 that a borderline would, an intelligent borderline, 1.00

01:57:29.160 who, as I show in the book, these women that are creative, 1.00

01:57:32.260 it makes them creative, borderline personality disorder, 0.99

01:57:35.140 it makes them creative and if they have with that intelligence which she must have because she went

01:57:39.920 to university and so forth um then that is then that is exactly the kind of exactly the kind of 0.76

01:57:46.860 woeful over the top uh a sob story uh that they would use to get status to get attention to um

01:57:57.540 men if you talk about sexual abuse a man's automatically interested to bond with men to

01:58:03.320 make the man feel like he's rescuing her

01:58:06.160 and the behaviour patterns, which I

01:58:08.060 wonder, maybe they're independently documented.

01:58:10.760 So maybe the behaviour patterns

01:58:12.160 with the foster parents, maybe

01:58:14.120 that is true. And those

01:58:16.240 behaviour patterns would be consistent with being

01:58:18.100 a borderline. Right, and you can imagine

01:58:20.260 such a person, you know, justifying

01:58:22.600 if they're abused

01:58:24.140 once, you can imagine, or

01:58:26.020 like heaven views someone's situation,

01:58:28.280 you can imagine them justifying the subsequent

01:58:30.200 lies, well, no one cared

01:58:32.220 when it was just ordinary miserable abuse that was horrible you know so i so i have to play it up 0.89

01:58:40.760 and you know you know screw them they didn't care when i when it was just like ordinary abuse which 0.78

01:58:46.560 is like awful as i look at as i look at in the book maybe the father smacked her bottom or 0.97

01:58:53.760 something and being a faster history strategist she found this physiologically arousing because

01:58:58.440 it was to do with power dynamics, and if you are

01:59:00.520 a farcified strategist, then power is arousing,

01:59:02.940 hence the rape fantasies and so forth. 0.58

01:59:05.720 And 0.95

01:59:05.840 so then she 0.83

01:59:07.620 exaggerated this into...

01:59:10.840 She felt it was sexual, 1.00

01:59:13.060 and she exaggerated this into rape 1.00

01:59:14.720 and sexual abuse 1.00

01:59:16.540 and all that sort of thing. That's the kind of thing that could happen.

01:59:18.920 But it could even be that there's no truth

01:59:20.700 in it. Nothing, like nothing.

01:59:22.540 There's just nothing. But there could be a

01:59:24.320 kernel of truth in it. Yeah, it could be

01:59:26.460 that this was like a...

01:59:28.440 A university girl who had heard stories like this from other women said, oh, I'm advancing the cause by assembling all these together in a story that people listen to or whatnot.

01:59:45.320 because I agree with you, the confluence of, like, the string of bad luck 0.99

01:59:51.120 and then the happy ending strikes me as quite unlikely

01:59:58.900 unless this is the one thing she achieved before something else.

02:00:04.440 The Crown Prosecution Service declined to continue the case

02:00:08.240 arguing that there is a lack of evidence.

02:00:10.480 Oh, I am surprised.

02:00:13.920 I am surprised.

02:00:15.220 fascinating of course there was a lack of evidence why wouldn't mind you we don't want

02:00:20.580 to we don't want to take the crown prosecution services uh uh word too highly uh no no that's

02:00:29.640 well that's normally track that's normally track record and it's uh in it prosecuting people who

02:00:39.320 shouldn't be prosecuting but um this is this is not prosecuting somebody so she goes into foster

02:00:45.960 camp she makes it impossible for the family to keep her yeah this is this is uh i i find it like

02:00:51.040 like in it i find it fascinating because every individual elements i can guarantee you happen

02:00:57.520 to a girl uh i just find it very implausible that they would all daisy chain like this

02:01:05.540 But that's what you find with a narcissist or whatever, a vulnerable narcissist that engages in this signaling of tragedy and vulnerability, that everything bad will have happened to them.

02:01:19.380 They will pick things they've heard from this person and from this person and from this person, and that's what they do.

02:01:25.640 And so you'll meet them.

02:01:26.720 And if you're naive, you'll think this is the most extraordinary, amazing person ever, and at the same time, the most tragic and abused person ever.

02:01:34.560 and then as you start

02:01:36.300 questioning what they say

02:01:39.560 it starts to not make sense

02:01:41.880 it starts to be inconsistent

02:01:43.840 yeah so

02:01:44.420 that's what I think is the most likely

02:01:47.460 no that makes

02:01:50.680 that makes perfect sense

02:01:52.080 so this has been

02:01:54.300 we're coming up on the

02:01:55.940 the two hour mark

02:01:58.280 this has been wonderfully

02:02:00.100 fascinating

02:02:00.660 I quite like

02:02:03.100 where can

02:02:04.720 I quite like getting your insights on all

02:02:07.460 he's Bob Galter's

02:02:09.260 where can our

02:02:11.020 listeners follow you

02:02:12.340 so on YouTube I'm Jolly Heretic

02:02:17.240 and on Twitter

02:02:19.020 I'm at Jolly Heretic and on

02:02:21.320 Substack I'm the Jolly Heretic

02:02:23.620 and on Substack I put all the

02:02:25.500 base things I can't put on YouTube

02:02:27.320 and in person interviews

02:02:29.260 and blogs and blogs and films

02:02:31.460 I make, such as my new film about Slough, Britain's ugliest city. And if you like what I do, you can

02:02:35.940 support me for the cost of a pint of beer a month. And I livestream on Mondays at 7pm UK time. I have

02:02:42.900 my subsequent livestream on Thursdays at 7pm UK time. And I have various books. And my current,

02:02:49.540 my latest book, as I said, is on borderline personality disorder. It's called Borderline

02:02:52.660 Genius, Borderline Insane. And that's why I was so taken by that last example, because I've

02:02:59.060 I've researched this kind of thing in so much, so much detail.

02:03:01.840 So yeah, that's my, that's my latest book.

02:03:03.100 Amazing.

02:03:03.420 And if you can, I will include all that in the show notes.

02:03:08.780 Send me, send me the specific names of the books and stuff to plug that I can include

02:03:14.420 that, then the show notes.

02:03:16.220 And I will link you, your sub stack, especially, but everything else that, yeah, our listeners

02:03:24.560 can follow and find you.

02:03:26.180 I'd love to have you back on the show to discuss more of these extreme cases

02:03:32.740 or stuff from other cases where psychology and behavior

02:03:38.920 drives these stories in odd ways.

02:03:43.520 This has been a...

02:03:44.740 EvoPsych has been a deep fascination of mine

02:03:49.140 that I'd love to dive into.

02:03:54.560 Pleasure. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

02:03:56.180 all right amazing uh check it check out the jolly heretic and uh you listeners out there

02:04:02.900 stay glorious

02:04:26.180 Thank you.

02:04:56.180 We'll be right back.

02:05:26.180 Thank you.

02:05:56.180 Thank you.

02:06:26.180 Thank you.

02:06:56.180 Thank you.

02:07:26.180 We'll be right back.

Anarchonomicon - September 25, 2026

Ep37 Incest and Murder with Edward Dutton

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