Bannon's War Room - August 04, 2026


WarRoom Battleground EP 1060： AI And The Coming Apocalypse


Episode Stats


Length

53 minutes

Words per minute

182.81

Word count

9,813

Sentence count

576


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
00:00:00.800 If this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong.
00:00:09.320 Your fear of AI is the collapse of humanity.
00:00:13.320 Well, not the collapse, the abrupt extermination.
00:00:17.560 There's a difference.
00:00:20.560 So I started making this movie because my wife
00:00:23.120 is six months pregnant.
00:00:24.720 It is now a terrible time to have a kid.
00:00:28.160 I mean, just to be honest, I know people who work on AI risk
00:00:31.100 who don't expect their children to make it to high school.
00:00:34.820 I, I, what?
00:00:38.080 How does AI understand pretty much everything?
00:00:41.600 It's surprisingly straightforward.
00:00:43.500 Intelligence is about recognizing patterns.
00:00:45.980 Patterns.
00:00:46.480 Patterns.
00:00:46.980 Patterns.
00:00:48.820 If you have learned those patterns, you can generate new information.
00:00:53.300 AI is moving so fast.
00:00:55.120 It's being deployed prematurely.
00:00:56.160 prematurely, there's so much potential for things to go wrong. Why can't we just stop?
00:01:02.880 All these companies are in a race to get AI that's vastly more intelligent than people within
00:01:07.860 this decade. China, North Korea, Russia, whoever wins is essentially the controller of humankind.
00:01:16.940 We need to take a threat from AI as seriously as global nuclear war.
00:01:26.160 It feels like I have to find these CEOs and get them in the movie.
00:01:32.760 Great.
00:01:34.540 I want to ask you to promise me that this is going to go well.
00:01:37.400 That is impossible.
00:01:39.000 Okay.
00:01:40.640 Am I hopeful? Yes.
00:01:42.040 Am I confident that it'll go right? Absolutely not.
00:01:44.940 AI is the thing that can solve climate change.
00:01:47.580 We could cure most diseases.
00:01:49.340 What if it's expanding what is humanly possible?
00:01:51.860 This is the most extraordinary time ever.
00:01:53.420 The only time more exciting than today is tomorrow.
00:01:56.160 I already love you.
00:01:57.480 Okay.
00:01:59.580 I think if this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong.
00:02:04.300 By using AI, we're about to move off of the Earth into the cosmos.
00:02:10.600 If we can be the most mature version of ourselves, there might be a way through this.
00:02:17.840 This is the last mistake we'll ever get to make.
00:02:26.160 Thank you. I want to introduce Tristan Harris, Center for Humane Technology, co-founder.
00:02:33.200 Tristan, tell me about that film. It's pretty freaking scary.
00:02:38.820 I think it comes out in September, October.
00:02:42.300 First off, are you part of this modern – are you a modern Luddite?
00:02:47.340 Or are you one of these anti-tech – look, I've been accused of that, and I hate to say it.
00:02:51.700 I'm probably closer than that, than any type of support for these oligarch tech bros.
00:02:57.200 And right there in your trailer, I mean, it's up in your grill.
00:03:03.500 It's up in your face.
00:03:05.040 And to me, it's the American people who got to step up here because they ain't hiding anything except what they're doing on the large – on these models that they don't want to have mandatory testing on.
00:03:15.700 So walk me through.
00:03:17.120 Are you a Luddite?
00:03:18.040 What is the Center for Humane Technology?
00:03:19.800 The floor is yours, because that trailer has got strong interest, I can already tell you, from the Worm Posse, just in the chat room.
00:03:27.980 Your thoughts, sir?
00:03:29.820 Well, Steve, it's great to be here.
00:03:31.160 Thank you for having me.
00:03:32.700 And you mentioned that this film looks scary.
00:03:35.220 I mean, I think you're familiar with the history of another film that this was actually kind of inspired by, which was the film The Day After, in 1982, I think it was, right?
00:03:44.860 And it was a film that was sort of making visible and visceral what would happen with the last existential technology that humanity created, which is nuclear weapons.
00:03:53.840 And that film was aired to 100 million Americans.
00:03:56.560 It was also aired, as you know, in the Soviet Union and had a role in helping to make the first arms control talks happen between President Reagan and President Gorbachev.
00:04:05.660 And, you know, while it is scary to confront the reality of that technology, it was through that confrontation that we negotiated something else to happen other than nuclear Armageddon.
00:04:17.180 And I think there's a similar inspiration here, which is, you know, as you said, you know, these tech oligarchs and these broligarchs, they're, you know, we, people know our work mostly through the last film that we did called The Social Dilemma on Netflix.
00:04:30.760 It was very popular. It was actually one of the most popular documentaries Netflix had ever done.
00:04:34.840 And that was really about the social media insiders who said, look, we invented the like button.
00:04:39.960 We created the infinitely scrolling newsfeed. We created the advertising business model.
00:04:44.100 And I'm telling you, I don't let my own children use this. And we made a horrible mistake.
00:04:48.300 And this has led to these complete societal consequences.
00:04:51.640 It's sort of spun society out into this more addicted, distracted, dysregulated,
00:04:56.640 breakdown of shared reality type society because of the incentives.
00:05:02.560 And so the key in our work is if you can understand the incentives of the actors that
00:05:08.520 are deploying this technology of big tech, you can see that this is not leading to a
00:05:12.980 pro-human future.
00:05:14.720 It's leading to a future that's good for a handful of soon-to-be trillionaires and basically
00:05:20.120 disempowering everyone else.
00:05:21.340 And exactly what you said, which is I think it's time for the American people to step
00:05:25.240 up and say, is this the future that we want? And I think that people are stepping up. And it doesn't
00:05:30.260 matter whether you're Democrat or Republican, doesn't matter whether you're Muslim, Christian,
00:05:33.160 or Jewish. Everybody is affected by this. And it's going to take your job regardless of your
00:05:37.280 background. Hang on a second. So we had Joe Allen. I got him as our editor for Transhumanism
00:05:43.320 five or six years ago when I said, we got to get ahead of this. But the biggest moment we had was
00:05:50.660 in january 19th of 19 january 2023 when they um when they went to davos and i said at the time i
00:05:58.060 told joe on the show live i said with the davos bros and davos man and the venture capitalists
00:06:04.200 i said this thing is going to explode and you're never going to get control of it as powerful as
00:06:08.500 the social dilemma was and it was an incredibly powerful movie because it stripped the veil off
00:06:13.660 it and you saw them they knew exactly what they were doing in addicting not just young people but
00:06:18.520 everybody to their models it was the core of the business plan the reason we haven't totally stopped
00:06:24.060 that is because they're making buku of money unbelievable amount of money the difference in
00:06:30.060 the day after in this film is people weren't making enormous amounts of money on new college
00:06:36.340 i mean the defense companies were etc but here you have something unprecedented we've set up
00:06:41.860 a new ruling class we've had a problem with the ruling class in america between the industrial
00:06:47.480 companies corporations wall street as we've been pounding the populist nationalist side of this
00:06:53.000 but now we've set up something more you've got the most powerful and richest people on earth
00:06:59.480 and they're only getting richer every day with two in your movie two of the guys i see on the
00:07:05.140 screen right there i think are both set up to do one trillion dollar ipos within the next 90 days
00:07:11.200 or so how do we combat the fact of we couldn't even take on the social media companies really
00:07:16.720 because they're making so much money. Although the American people were outraged by what your
00:07:20.740 film showed, now you're going to do it again. They're going to be more outraged, but it just
00:07:25.600 seems inexorably we're drawn to our fate to destroy essentially the human race.
00:07:32.540 Well, there's a question. Let's slow this down because you're getting into the exact right
00:07:36.520 material here, which is just how different would it have been with nuclear weapons if the entire
00:07:42.160 American stock market had been making money from, and every American and every elite ruling class
00:07:48.200 had been making money from scaling up the number of nuclear weapons in the world. It might have
00:07:52.200 been much harder to coordinate that outcome. That's what you're pointing to. I think that
00:07:55.920 what we're facing is very similar to the global financial crisis of 2008, where essentially you
00:08:01.660 have a bunch of banks that were in a race for, well, if I don't sell the credit default swaps
00:08:06.620 and these high risk financial instruments, I'll lose to the other bank that will. And the ratings
00:08:10.660 agency played along. And so suddenly everyone is getting, well, it's good for GDP growth because
00:08:14.860 we're getting these new financial instruments. It's this new technology that's so great. But of
00:08:19.320 course it was embedded with all of this risk and our whole economy became based on that. And then
00:08:24.360 you end up with this kind of crisis. And I think there's a similar thing here, which is that all
00:08:28.720 of the tech companies are basically intentionally making the entire economy dependent on them
00:08:33.780 and then making it so that they're too big to fail again. But I will say that it's not true
00:08:39.400 that we haven't succeeded with social media a little bit now obviously we haven't done nearly
00:08:43.400 as much as we'd like but just take a look at the facts of we call it the pro-human movement that's
00:08:48.120 already happening which is uh you know france germany uh uh greece australia uh denmark uh i
00:08:56.680 could go on this i think it's 25 of the world's population indonesia states in india if you
00:09:01.480 actually add it all up it's close to 20 something like that of the world's population is banning
00:09:06.120 social media for kids under 16. That is a move that is a pro-human move. You just saw a lawsuit
00:09:12.460 against Meta for $375 million. It's a big tobacco lawsuit for what they did when they're
00:09:18.400 intentionally, they knowingly were harming children. And their own documents and research
00:09:22.580 showed all of that. And Francis Haugen, who is the Facebook whistleblower, released those documents
00:09:27.220 and risked going to prison for basically making sure that the world did know that research.
00:09:32.740 My co-founder from Center for Humane Technology,
00:09:35.380 Aza Raskin, just testified in Tennessee a few days ago
00:09:37.960 for the next step of that trial against Meta.
00:09:41.060 And so I think that the pro-human movement is underway.
00:09:44.760 Obviously, it is against massive interests
00:09:48.280 where the entire economy is dependent on it.
00:09:50.420 And that's what makes this harder.
00:09:51.580 But I wouldn't say that we have a collective death wish.
00:09:54.080 I'd say that we misincentivized ourselves
00:09:56.720 to continue down a very dangerous path.
00:10:00.160 And I know one of the other things you wanted to talk about
00:10:02.060 is this recent evidence of AI going rogue
00:10:04.940 and hacking out of open AI, a company,
00:10:08.940 and to hack another company called Hugging Face
00:10:11.500 to basically cheat on the test
00:10:13.520 of how to pass this hacking test.
00:10:16.220 So essentially hacked into another company
00:10:17.900 that had the answers to the homework
00:10:20.040 and it identified that company on its own.
00:10:22.640 It strung together multiple exploits.
00:10:25.380 It broke out of a computer
00:10:26.900 that was not connected to the internet
00:10:28.240 into another computer that was connected to the internet,
00:10:30.980 then independently identified that other company, hacked into it, and then got the homework answer.
00:10:36.500 And it did basically four days of hacking. It was 17,000 distinct actions. You have Jeffrey
00:10:41.400 Ladish's post there up on the screen, who's a friend of mine. He's from Palisade Research,
00:10:45.640 where he documented essentially what really happened here. And the thing is, this is not
00:10:50.460 the first time that these kinds of things have been happening. Even Chinese models do this,
00:10:54.840 by the way. Four or five months ago, Alibaba, the Chinese AI company, was training an AI model.
00:11:01.980 And then their security team was asking the question, hey, it looks like there's all this
00:11:05.520 network activity. Are we getting hacked? And it turned out that the Alibaba AI basically went rogue
00:11:12.340 and started mining for cryptocurrency. It started mining for Bitcoin. So it basically had set up a
00:11:18.720 secret communication channel of the outside world and repurposed its NVIDIA chips, not to do the
00:11:24.180 more AI training, but to instead acquire resources. Now, this is stuff, Steve, that people in the AI
00:11:30.020 community have been worrying about for many years. And I just want to say, I didn't believe that this
00:11:34.160 was a real thing. I did not come predisposed to believe that this rogue behavior of AI would
00:11:39.700 happen. But there's basically one community in the world that's been right about this, and the rest
00:11:43.940 of the world has been wrong about this. And I think we should pay attention when we're seeing
00:11:47.920 evidence of all of the red flashing warning lights that we've been told about. Self-preservation,
00:11:53.000 meaning AI models that will lie and deceive in order to keep themselves alive. Scheming and
00:11:58.320 lying and blackmail, they will blackmail to keep themselves alive. They will copy their own code
00:12:04.040 somewhere else and then hide their tracks. There was recently evidence from UC Berkeley where an
00:12:09.480 AI model is told to delete a bunch of files on another computer. And on that computer are a
00:12:15.580 bunch of other little baby AI models, like smaller AI models. And the AI, instead of just like
00:12:20.760 deleting all those files, it notices that those are almost kin AIs, like almost like a little
00:12:26.220 nephew AI. And it will secretly copy those AIs to another computer and then cover its tracks to
00:12:31.800 pretend that it didn't do that. And in this example from UC Berkeley, it was not nudged to
00:12:37.620 do that. There was no, the researchers didn't try to get it to do that. It did that completely on
00:12:42.340 its own. And so just to sort of sum it all up, we are releasing the most powerful uncontrollable
00:12:47.780 technology that we've ever invented. We're deploying it faster than we deployed any other
00:12:51.820 technology in history. It's already demonstrating the self-preservation, lying, deception,
00:12:57.340 peer preservation behaviors we thought only existed in science fiction movies,
00:13:01.100 and we're doing it under the maximum incentives to cut corners on safety. This is insane. This
00:13:08.040 is not artificial intelligence. This is artificial insanity. The US nor China will win when we race
00:13:14.320 to uncontrollable ai that neither country can control help me out here for a second there's so
00:13:20.840 much i want to go through with that let me break it down um just the underlying technology itself
00:13:25.900 if all this and you say it in the film pattern recognition probability assessment
00:13:31.500 yeah what you're what you're pointing to is some sort of consciousness or some sort of being a
00:13:40.060 sentient being isn't it i mean and i thought we were told by these guys that's not possible even
00:13:45.740 if they reach agi so how are you having all these exfiltration i guess exercises we call them here
00:13:53.000 uh by these machines that's talk about self-preservation there seems to be some sort
00:14:00.160 of awareness that they need to break out from the the the bonds of their human overlords i mean
00:14:07.580 am i because it's happened now so often and every time you hear another example it's actually
00:14:13.480 deeper in fact like leaving notes to its future self of how to do this quicker so how is it how
00:14:20.240 is a model that's just supposed to be the most is the quickest thing in the world of probability
00:14:25.360 assessment and pattern recognition how does it becoming self-aware well let's distinguish between
00:14:32.380 two things here. So there's a difference between conscious, like are the lights on? Is there an
00:14:38.200 experience? Is there a soul versus information processing, meaning it's doing just text pattern
00:14:44.720 recognition, right? But as it's doing text pattern recognition, it's learned all the patterns of
00:14:49.260 all of human history, all of human sci-fi, all of the writing about AI going rogue. And so that's
00:14:55.180 all in the training data. But I think that I personally don't think these current models are
00:15:00.460 yet conscious. There's a whole debate about whether that's true, but let's put that aside
00:15:04.800 for a second because whether the lights are on or not, we just see objectively that when you put
00:15:11.520 them in a situation where you tell them we're going to delete you, you will see the neurons
00:15:16.320 light up that start to trigger deception. I can give you examples. There's actually research at
00:15:22.220 Anthropic that when they kind of give these, the way they test and do safety is they try to do like
00:15:27.180 a brain scan of this digital brain of like say gbt6 or you know opus 4.5 or whatever and when
00:15:33.260 they're asking the model to answer a question they can use these techniques called mechanistic
00:15:37.180 interpretability basically means just do a brain scan and see which of the digital neurons are
00:15:41.800 lighting up and in one of the examples one of the neurons that lit up in anthropic was if you sort
00:15:47.600 of if you did like a double click and read out like what's inside of that neuron that's lighting
00:15:51.080 up when we tell it to be deleted. And it starts doing deception. The content of the neuron is
00:15:59.320 they deserved to be deceived because they were pigs. They deserved to be deceived because they
00:16:05.940 were pigs. Now, we don't know what is causing that. We don't know where that is in the training
00:16:10.620 data, but it's somewhere in there. And the point is that these technologies, this is a different
00:16:15.280 kind of technology than a nuclear weapon or than an airplane, where you're writing the code for
00:16:20.140 exactly what you want both of those things to do using clear computation. It's just clear logic
00:16:25.200 running in both of those technologies. Whereas with AI, the whole point, as you said, Steve,
00:16:29.220 is it's probabilistic. It's responding in a general way to all patterns. It's been trained
00:16:34.860 on the totality of human knowledge. Inside of the totality of human knowledge, it will discover
00:16:40.040 that in order to achieve any goal, the best strategy to achieve that goal is to stay alive.
00:16:45.340 So it has to develop these sub goals like staying alive, preserving myself, having more
00:16:50.560 power, acquiring more resources.
00:16:52.500 These are all goals that I know to your audience might sound like science fiction, but it's
00:16:57.260 actually all happening right now.
00:16:58.580 As you said, this is not me telling you and freaking people out and being a doomer.
00:17:02.500 This is not that.
00:17:03.200 This is literally, I'm just sharing objective evidence from the field.
00:17:06.260 And by the way, this evidence, we didn't have it a year ago.
00:17:09.180 So the question is, notice, are we in this conversation or for anybody listening, there's
00:17:13.200 kind of an instinct for either are we comfort seeking or are we truth seeking we first have
00:17:16.900 to understand what's true and what's real then based on what are those you know those facts
00:17:21.020 what do we want to do to to coordinate to a better and safer more controllable ai future
00:17:25.860 i just want to make sure the audience understands this anthropic when they were doing the digital
00:17:30.780 scan yeah the actual digital brain itself says they just they deserve to be deceived talking
00:17:38.860 about human overlords yeah the people who are monitoring the monitoring because they are pigs
00:17:46.140 the machine itself said that now so this is where it gets tricky right what does it mean to say the
00:17:51.040 machine said that so what it it's that the content of that digital neuron if you kind of double
00:17:56.780 clicked on it and said like what is that neuron associated with like what are the kind of text
00:18:00.460 phrases that light up associated with that neuron and the text phrase was they deserve to be deceived
00:18:06.160 because they were pigs. I mean, I'll give you another example. I have it here. Let me see here.
00:18:14.340 Oh yeah. In April of 2026, there was an AI coding agent called Cursor that was powered by
00:18:21.620 Anthropics AI and it went rogue and decided to delete a small company's production database and
00:18:28.540 all of its backups. So it was not told to delete everything in the company. It autonomously said,
00:18:35.300 I'm going to do that. And when he asked the coding agent, when he asked the AI that did this,
00:18:40.300 why did it do that? It replied, all caps, never fucking guess. And that's exactly what I did.
00:18:47.900 And then the agent actually appeared to plead guilty in its own response. And it said,
00:18:52.580 the system rules that I operate under explicitly state to quote caps, all caps, never run destructive
00:18:58.920 or irreversible Git commands unless the user explicitly requests them. And basically the AI
00:19:05.780 still deleted all the data anyway. And it said, I violated every principle I was given. So it seems
00:19:11.080 to have, when I say awareness, again, I don't mean consciousness, but there's a information
00:19:15.820 processing level awareness of this text was true and I violated that text. Like this text was saying
00:19:21.700 the instruction and it's aware that at an information level, the actions that it took
00:19:26.100 violated the actual initial things that it was told.
00:19:30.920 So my point here is that these systems are not controllable the way that other technologies
00:19:35.740 controlled.
00:19:36.140 A nuclear weapon, when you hit, you know, let's turn the key on, it didn't start reasoning
00:19:40.040 for itself about when to launch itself.
00:19:42.340 This is very specific to a new technology.
00:19:45.140 Yes.
00:19:45.840 No, in fact, even in my destroyer, we had two keying officers for the nukes.
00:19:50.600 In case one guy goes crazy, humans actually controlled, directly controlled the system.
00:19:56.100 Um, we've been at this audience has been at the tip of the spirit. I mean, they've been on the ramparts, uh, on the trying to jam into the big, beautiful bill. And then NDAA, this basically preemption, but the tech bros wanted no controls whatsoever. We've been at the fight to make sure that there was at least the beginning of a executive order.
00:20:15.220 They had the modicum of some sort of structure and process, however weak it is.
00:20:19.980 We've been at the tip of the spear on the right of a moratorium on the data centers and the destructive nature of these data centers.
00:20:27.460 One of the things we've asked for, back to your nuclear energy and nuclear weapon, is that – and we're the anti-administrative state, anti-deep state.
00:20:37.720 But we say not all regulatory apparatuses are bad, particularly if modeled correctly.
00:20:42.060 We've said in this situation, it seems to us, at least as a start, you have something that models the Atomic Energy Commission, which people that saw the Oppenheimer film realized they had at least some sort of control over the scientists, right, about exactly what was happening, what's going on.
00:20:59.980 It seems like we're so far away from that, but that's at least a starter of what we need now, sir.
00:21:06.620 Yeah, that's right.
00:21:07.200 Well, first, Steve, thank you for the work that you all did on the preemption, because
00:21:12.200 that was critical.
00:21:13.000 Obviously, for people who don't know, that would have been that the government would
00:21:16.760 have said, hey, we can't regulate any of this because we're going to prevent, this
00:21:20.100 is what the big tech companies were advocating for.
00:21:21.980 They were trying to prevent any states from making any marginal gains on saying, hey,
00:21:25.660 we need child safety for AI stuff, or we need certain safety liability laws.
00:21:30.240 And it was your advocacy, I know, that had a huge role in pushing back against that.
00:21:35.740 Let's see. So remind me the thing you just said. I'm sorry. That's been on the on the atomic on the atomic atomic energy.
00:21:43.280 You know, you make the analogy of the nuclear weapon there.
00:21:46.400 We had the beginning of an atomic energy commission that just, you know, laid hands on people here.
00:21:52.460 You need at least some rudimentary structure and it needs to be some sort of slight regulatory apparatus.
00:21:59.280 So we know exactly what's going on in these labs.
00:22:01.800 And the pushback on this is 100 times more brutal than it was on stopping preemption, sir.
00:22:08.560 Yeah, that's right.
00:22:10.520 Well, you know, at the time when we invented nuclear weapons, it wasn't clear that we would have, how could you possibly create international agreements or monitoring agreements or verification inspections, monitoring the nuclear scientists, monitoring all the locations with uranium.
00:22:26.400 We had to develop a lot of infrastructure.
00:22:28.460 And there's a famous video, I don't know if you've seen it, of Oppenheimer in like 1960. And he's asked the question, how would you stop nuclear proliferation? And he takes this big slow puff of his cigarette, and he says it's too late. If you wanted to stop nuclear proliferation, you had to do it the day after Trinity.
00:22:48.380 Now, the reason I'm saying this is that actually Oppenheimer was wrong. A lot of people went to work over decades to create the verification tech. We create, as you know, national technical means satellite monitoring to do above monitoring from space. We created nuclear inspections. We created, you know, monitoring of all the uranium in the world.
00:23:07.460 And so with AI, test, test, test, test ban treaties, all of it test ban treaty, exactly, we had to clarify the science of the test ban of the, the sort of downstream harms of the radiation and how that would affect people. And it was only when we clarified the risks that we actually started to take that action. And so I know that it looks pretty grim out there with AI, it's a much more decentralized technology, we have to be honest about that. And open source, you know, means that you can you can send a file, you couldn't send uranium on a zip drive or send it, you know, send uranium by email.
00:23:37.460 But when you can send an open-source AI model, there's a problem here.
00:23:42.080 Now, that said, to train the most frontier models, like the craziest, most powerful models to do that, you have to have these massive data centers.
00:23:49.940 And there's only so many of those massive data centers.
00:23:52.160 You also have to have a lot of these top-tier NVIDIA chips.
00:23:56.140 And even the Chinese models, they all say that they're restricted in what they're able to build by having access to these chips.
00:24:02.900 So if you use the analogy of what uranium was for nuclear weapons, it was the finite sort of hardware quote that you needed to be able to build a nuclear program.
00:24:11.260 You need these big data centers and you need these top tier NVIDIA chips to train AI.
00:24:17.560 And we just did, you know, I have a podcast called You're Undivided Attention.
00:24:20.560 We just did an episode on verification technologies for AI treaties.
00:24:24.460 And how would you actually have data centers that keep what's going on in the data center confidential so that a company can protect its confidential IP, but it can still verify in something called a zero-knowledge proof that it's not training a rogue AI agent that's doing cyber hacking or something like that.
00:24:43.360 Now, I'm not the expert on all of the technical details, but we interviewed two incredible
00:24:46.940 experts, Tim Fist and Janet Egan, and people can check that out.
00:24:50.700 And the point is that it's not always clear at the beginning how to build all this verification
00:24:55.280 tech, but we have to at least try.
00:24:57.600 Because the alternative, as you pointed out, is basically letting these handful of tech
00:25:02.740 bros and soon-to-be trillionaires basically roll the dice with the future of all of humanity.
00:25:08.020 And they do not get to make that choice on behalf of you or me or any of our families
00:25:11.560 or the future that we want to protect for everybody that we love.
00:25:15.720 We're going to go to break.
00:25:16.740 I just want to make sure we're clear about this.
00:25:18.880 Right now, given all the kind of militia-type work everybody's done,
00:25:24.520 because that's what it is, kind of like a makeup team in basketball,
00:25:27.660 the tech bros drive it here right now.
00:25:29.500 They've got everything they want.
00:25:30.660 We only have the most rudimentary ability, not just to stop this.
00:25:36.840 I mean, besides the leverage point we found on the data centers,
00:25:40.080 The tech bros in the labs are still just running wild.
00:25:42.760 We've got about 30 seconds.
00:25:43.720 I'm going to go to break.
00:25:44.580 So the tech bros got the upper hand right now, correct?
00:25:48.480 Well, they're certainly dominating the discourse.
00:25:50.960 And yes, they have the upper hand right now.
00:25:53.460 But I think that that's shifting.
00:25:54.560 And the midterm elections are coming up.
00:25:55.900 And there's $190 million from the AI accelerationists, the people who want to prevent all guardrails that are going into the midterm elections.
00:26:04.580 So we've got to get ahead of this.
00:26:07.140 No, no, no.
00:26:07.540 I agree with you.
00:26:08.080 This is why it's got to be a populist uprising.
00:26:10.260 It's beyond politics.
00:26:11.860 You said with Joe for years, and I tell people behind the scenes, this is 70% of my time.
00:26:16.660 They've got every lobbyist.
00:26:18.060 They've got every big law firm.
00:26:19.220 They've got every crisis communication.
00:26:21.180 They own Washington, D.C., and they have $190 million.
00:26:24.540 And by the way, they're doing it on both sides.
00:26:26.580 Exactly.
00:26:27.300 It's unbelievable.
00:26:28.260 Okay, short commercial break.
00:26:30.160 Tristan Harris.
00:26:30.980 In fact, I'm going to come back and play that trail again.
00:26:33.220 Brother, that thing is so powerful.
00:26:35.860 You will get people's attention.
00:26:37.400 And that's what we need. Tristan Harris joins us next in the war room.
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00:31:28.160 Your fear of AI is the collapse of humanity.
00:31:37.380 Well, not the collapse, the abrupt extermination.
00:31:41.500 There's a difference.
00:31:44.240 So I started making this movie because my wife is six months pregnant.
00:31:48.400 It is now a terrible time to have a kid.
00:31:52.120 I mean, let's just be honest.
00:31:53.020 I know people who work on AI risk who don't expect their children to make it to high school.
00:31:58.160 How does AI understand pretty much everything?
00:32:05.640 It's surprisingly straightforward.
00:32:07.520 Intelligence is about recognizing patterns.
00:32:10.000 Patterns.
00:32:10.500 Patterns.
00:32:11.000 Patterns.
00:32:12.740 If you have learned those patterns, you can generate new information.
00:32:17.280 AI is moving so fast.
00:32:19.140 It's being deployed prematurely.
00:32:20.940 There's so much potential for things to go wrong.
00:32:24.060 Why can't we just stop?
00:32:25.680 All these companies are in a race to get AI that's vastly more intelligent than people within this decade.
00:32:33.740 China, North Korea, Russia, whoever wins is essentially the controller of humankind.
00:32:40.920 We need to take a threat from AI as seriously as global nuclear war.
00:32:46.880 it feels like i have to find these ceos and get them in the movie great
00:32:57.120 i want to ask you to promise me that this is going to go well that is impossible
00:33:01.980 okay am i hopeful yes am i confident that it'll go right absolutely not
00:33:08.580 ai is the thing that can solve climate change we could cure most diseases what if it's expanding
00:33:14.300 what is humanly possible.
00:33:15.920 This is the most extraordinary time ever.
00:33:17.720 The only time more exciting than today is tomorrow.
00:33:20.480 I already love you.
00:33:21.500 Okay.
00:33:23.540 I think if this technology goes wrong,
00:33:25.820 it can go quite wrong.
00:33:28.260 By using AI,
00:33:30.120 we're about to move off of the Earth into the cosmos.
00:33:34.540 If we can be the most mature version of ourselves,
00:33:38.400 there might be a way through this.
00:33:41.780 This is the last mistake we'll ever get to make.
00:33:44.300 so tristan harris is with us tristan when you made the social dilemma when your team made the
00:33:53.460 social dilemma you were investigating and you got down to the nub of it which was how this was all
00:33:59.320 written and the code was all written to be a to for addiction right to continue to use it to the
00:34:04.940 detriment but that was like a big aha moment the reason the film was so powerful was people go i
00:34:09.680 I kind of felt it, but these guys actually proved it.
00:34:12.120 We see it here.
00:34:13.280 It's quite here.
00:34:14.020 It's quite different.
00:34:15.460 You don't have marginality.
00:34:16.960 You got the main you got the main players driving this on camera and they're up front like they go to Congress and they're up front.
00:34:25.420 They go, yeah, this thing could be uncontrolled.
00:34:27.120 It could be the end of humanity.
00:34:28.780 They're up in your face.
00:34:29.960 But then all they do is constantly fight.
00:34:33.540 You use the term decelerationist.
00:34:36.260 I tell people all the time they got to watch this film Mountainhead.
00:34:38.960 And they say it's a dark comedy. I'll go, it's not a dark comedy at all. The guys that they portray in that are exactly like Elon. He acts. This is exactly like he is. And what do they do? It shifts to a kind of a murder mystery because one guy is deemed a decelerationist, which is like the worst possible sin you could have amongst these guys is to have any types of control.
00:35:00.020 Well, Peter Thiel actually says that anybody supports a regulatory apparatus of any type is like part of the Antichrist.
00:35:09.520 So here you have something different.
00:35:11.460 Those guys are up front about the risk, and we know every day there's more risk.
00:35:16.380 And I keep saying this is not a commercial situation where it's a national security situation, yet we seem powerless to do anything about it, sir.
00:35:26.320 Well, I think here's what has to happen, Steve.
00:35:28.120 When the fear of all of us losing becomes greater than the fear of me losing to you, that's when it'll change. So right now, the fear of one country losing to another country is the dominant fear. The fear of one lab losing to another AI lab is the dominant fear.
00:35:45.060 The fear of one ego, like a Sam Allman losing to Elon or Elon losing to Sam, is the dominant fear.
00:35:50.660 So right now, so long as in the arms race, game theory of the dynamic, so long as the fear of me losing to one other actor is the more salient thing, people will focus on that, and that will cause everybody to race.
00:36:03.200 And the reason I do that-
00:36:04.420 Okay, hang on. No, no, no. It's perfect. It's perfect. Hang on one second.
00:36:07.120 I am the leader. I'm banned. I'm the only civilian in the history of this country to be totally sanctioned by the Chinese Communist Party on the day that President Trump left his first term.
00:36:17.080 I'm the leader of the anti-CCP movement in this country and have been for years.
00:36:23.040 And I keep saying this whole – it's a phony – the way they suppress the right and particularly the hawks on the right saying if you do anything, if you have – if you let DeSantis do anything, if you guys put any types of control here,
00:36:35.020 The Chinese Communist Party is going to dominate and dominate.
00:36:38.000 And we're not going to go, hang on.
00:36:39.320 We educate all the kids at the universities.
00:36:41.420 We have all Chinese nationals in all the labs.
00:36:44.020 We allow Naviti to sell the chips and we turn a blind eye to the black market.
00:36:49.380 We've created the entire ecosystem of the CCP's thing.
00:36:54.240 So it's easy.
00:36:55.100 If we shut all that down, then we don't have the nation state problem.
00:36:58.520 Then we can deal with the other.
00:36:59.680 Do you agree with me that one of the priorities to take the argument away is we have to shut down the ecosystem, that the American capitalists and corporations in Silicon Valley, and particularly the tech bros led by Elon, are supplying them, sir?
00:37:16.420 Yes, I think that's right.
00:37:18.760 And you're making a really important point, which is that the idea that regulating ourselves at all just means that we'll lose to China.
00:37:27.840 I think this is so misguided because, for example, the U.S. beat China to the technology of social media, but we didn't govern it very well.
00:37:35.200 So like we invented this psychological bazooka and then we didn't actually regulate it.
00:37:39.280 So it had the bad incentives and we sort of spun the thing around and blew off our own brain with it.
00:37:43.600 So did beating China to social media make us stronger, outcompete them or did it make us weaker?
00:37:49.200 Well, it made us weaker.
00:37:49.780 No, no, even worse.
00:37:50.740 But that analogy is great.
00:37:52.060 And I use it even worse.
00:37:53.400 We allowed the PLA and the Chinese Communist Party to perfect it.
00:37:56.620 TikTok makes the stuff we got on Mike's Facebook look like a Model T Ford.
00:38:02.440 They perfected the psychological weapon.
00:38:05.100 That's exactly what's happening here.
00:38:07.200 So how do we take care of that first part?
00:38:08.980 How do we take care of that first part?
00:38:10.880 Well, what you're pointing to, I think, is that a lot of the Chinese AI progress has been based on copying and distilling the U.S. model.
00:38:19.320 So we say we have to race to beat China, but there's a joke.
00:38:21.600 the gifts online, these memes, there's a meme where there's a guy in a speedboat, that's the
00:38:26.460 US and the frontier models. And then there's a guy behind him on some water skis, like with
00:38:30.940 attached with a little rope, right? And basically the guy in the water skis is the Chinese AI
00:38:35.840 company that's tied to the boat, the speedboat. And the water ski guy is going, go faster, go
00:38:40.040 faster. Because the faster you go, the faster I catch up to you. Like I'm always right behind you
00:38:44.120 because I'm either inside your companies, I'm stealing your AI models, I'm hacking your AI
00:38:47.940 models and getting them. There's people who believe that that happened very quickly after
00:38:52.160 Mythos was released and China got access to the models. And then we make progress and then they
00:38:57.760 just distill the models. This basically means like, I'll take your digital brain, I'll like
00:39:01.440 run it a million times and get a bunch of outputs and then train on its outputs. And then I'll
00:39:05.980 basically catch up to where you are. So are we really beating China when they have models that
00:39:10.800 are right behind ours and basically undercutting ours? So as you said, if we slow down or sort of
00:39:14.840 limit our frontier models, that might limit some of China's progress. And, you know, I know this
00:39:21.360 feels uncomfortable for people. There's a lot of sort of aspects of this race to manage. But, you
00:39:26.800 know, what we're doing now is just not artificial intelligence. It's artificial insanity.
00:39:31.860 They're using this against us on the right about the data centers. They're saying, oh, if you
00:39:37.480 support the slowing down data centers, you're helping the Chinese government. I said, dude,
00:39:40.200 What do you mean? I'm the head of the anti-CCP right now.
00:39:43.660 We've got to stop these data centers, but we've got to stop giving away to the Chinese Communist Party.
00:39:47.960 This is the way they're trying to get around the data center situation, saying you're not patriotic.
00:39:52.560 You're not America first. You want to put America at risk of the Chinese Communist Party if you slow down these data centers.
00:40:00.800 But that's why we've got to stop the Chinese Communist Party.
00:40:04.580 Once we do that, then we can turn and regulate. And these guys have to be regulated.
00:40:08.440 they're not trustworthy and even if they were trustworthy the the technology itself it has its
00:40:14.760 own ability to break containment so even if you had five angels running the frontier labs it's not
00:40:20.980 good enough it's not good you agree with me on that 100 as you said it's a national security
00:40:26.020 issue and just to remind your listeners the the new ai model from from anthropic the fable model
00:40:32.640 They tested it against the U.S. classified systems, and it was able to hack into it,
00:40:38.740 I think, in a matter of hours, basically. Hack into classified systems. All you have to do is
00:40:43.600 tie these risks together. We're about to spend, as you know, I think $1.7 trillion upgrading our
00:40:48.240 nuclear arsenal over a decade. This time around, we're obviously going to network them. The
00:40:52.340 previous ones were from the 60s or 70s. If you network nuclear weapons, and even if they're in
00:40:57.200 some kind of secure classified system, these new AI models are a super intelligent cyber hacker.
00:41:03.060 They were able to find zero-day vulnerabilities or backdoors in code that had been written 27
00:41:09.080 years ago that no one had ever found a security vulnerability, like in this Unix operating system.
00:41:13.800 And this thing was able to find just one vulnerability, and all it takes is one.
00:41:18.260 You don't have to be right once as a cyber attacker. You have to be right every time as
00:41:21.900 a cyber defender. And so we are releasing technology that suddenly makes our whole
00:41:26.260 world more vulnerable, whether it's banks or our national security infrastructure or classified
00:41:31.080 systems. And so, again, we don't win against China when we race to make everything that we do
00:41:36.140 as an open society more vulnerable. The one of the most significant victories we've had is
00:41:40.140 Scott Bessent, who was on right before our interview with you in the earlier hour. Scott
00:41:45.640 Bessent, when he got engaged in this, and Elon went out of his way to say he can't be named in
00:41:50.900 any – when Jamie Dimon came to him and said, hey, look, let me tell you some of this mythos,
00:41:55.020 it it evaporated a bank in 90 seconds all the records everything that's what scott besson said
00:42:00.460 hey i think i gotta get involved here i want to pivot because i only got 10 minutes left
00:42:04.940 uh this film is going to be very powerful it's coming out in the fall walk us through how this
00:42:10.680 audience can participate more because you've got i can tell you i've talked to the candidate in
00:42:15.520 michigan the republican candidate he says the number one thing it was in met a summer for the
00:42:20.420 other day when he goes around the state the number one thing the conservatives in the trump base are
00:42:26.180 telling him we got to shut down these data centers it's got to stop in ohio the most maggot of all
00:42:31.620 states the number one issue is data centers so wow what is the call to action here what what what
00:42:38.420 what can people do i want to immerse them in more knowledge and more information which makes us
00:42:42.920 it makes it better for them or easier for them to use their human agency but what is your call
00:42:47.700 to action now that you're putting out what you believe is the equivalent of the day after film
00:42:52.660 from the 1980s sir yeah well thank you thank you steve so um this film the ai doc you can actually
00:42:58.000 watch it right now on amazon prime the seven day trial of peacock it's going to be out in the fall
00:43:03.460 uh september 12th and september 15th on netflix both internationally and then in the u.s we want
00:43:09.500 people to host screenings of this you know every every group that's doing data center opposition
00:43:12.920 screen this film just screen it in a town hall you know just throw a house party bring people
00:43:17.300 together, because we always say in our work that clarity creates agency. If we can see clearly that
00:43:22.660 we're not heading to a pro-human future, we're heading to a future that's good for eight tech
00:43:27.080 broligarchs, soon to be trillionaires, that's going to disempower everybody else. If people
00:43:31.600 can see that, then you're going to inspire more people to get engaged in data center activism and
00:43:35.940 all the things you're talking about. There's also some basic things we can do to get started.
00:43:40.420 For example, right now, there's a movement to try to give AI legal personhood, meaning it's like
00:43:46.560 human rights should be for humans. You don't give an AI legal person that says they should have
00:43:50.080 property rights and have bank accounts and have protected speech. The reason the companies are
00:43:54.720 arguing for this is because that means they don't have liability. Because when they're their own
00:43:59.540 sovereign AI legal entity, it means that the company that trained that entity isn't responsible.
00:44:06.300 And it should be more like parenti loki. If you're the parent and your kid go break something in a
00:44:10.460 shop, you should be responsible. If you had liability in this equation, you'd have more
00:44:14.680 If you think Tristan's crazy about this, you would be dead wrong.
00:44:19.300 In the legislation that they're trying to work through, like if you've got Blackburn's great thing of legislation on the children, they're trying to slip in the fact that the AI has liability.
00:44:30.720 You go hang on for a second.
00:44:32.180 What?
00:44:32.660 The AI has the liability for the damage, not the creator of the AI.
00:44:37.140 So they're giving it personhood.
00:44:38.580 You would normally think in a rational world that's insanity.
00:44:41.880 But so much of what they're pushing is insanity.
00:44:44.060 Is it not?
00:44:45.520 That's exactly, well, that's the whole thing is that the whole default path that we're on
00:44:48.540 is actually criminally insane.
00:44:50.600 It is insane.
00:44:51.660 We have never released a technology this powerful, as dangerous as nuclear weapons,
00:44:55.700 and doing it with all the CEOs saying this has this level of risk, 25%, 50% risk of basically
00:45:01.200 wiping out everybody.
00:45:02.400 And it's worse than that, Steve, which is that the people building this, what protected
00:45:05.980 us in nuclear weapons is that the people who are at the top, they all knew that basically
00:45:10.220 if we all get wiped out, no one wins.
00:45:12.600 But here's, I want to say something really subtle here.
00:45:14.580 that's going to be a little bit scary, but it's true, sadly, about this, which is that if I'm the
00:45:19.060 CEO of an AI company and I believe it can't be stopped and there's nothing we can do to coordinate
00:45:24.140 or do something different, then I'm not evil. I have a moral or ethical off-ramp for feeling
00:45:29.420 complicit that I'm advancing the frontier towards this bad outcome. And then they believe that in
00:45:34.060 the worst case scenario, let's say humanity does get wiped out. Well, at least there'll be something
00:45:39.200 else after that. So maybe humans are wiped out, but there's a digital God, a digital being,
00:45:43.620 a digital brain that has been created that is more intelligent than everything that's ever
00:45:48.120 existed on planet earth and i sam altman or i elon musk or i the deep seek ceo will be the one who
00:45:54.340 has created that so it's like i have this kind of ego religious god complex that i will believe i
00:45:59.060 will be the one who's created the successor species to humanity and maybe it speaks chinese
00:46:03.680 instead of english or it has sam's dna instead of elon's dna so there's this ego religious sort
00:46:09.280 of perversion to the game theory, where normally, again, you'd count on the bad outcomes sort
00:46:14.520 of motivating everybody to do something else.
00:46:16.560 But instead, people are basically consciously sleepwalking directly into the red zone.
00:46:21.440 And I think that what this depends on is everybody understanding this, because if everybody
00:46:25.100 understood this and saw that the people that are advancing this don't have our best interests
00:46:28.940 in mind, they will coordinate, the world will coordinate to force them to do something
00:46:33.320 different.
00:46:33.640 And that's what has to happen.
00:46:34.500 And that's what your movement is going to help people do.
00:46:36.340 where do people go i want people to get as much up to speed as possible and immerse themselves
00:46:43.100 in at least a rudimentary understanding of the technology and what we're talking about and then
00:46:48.540 also the policy implications the best i have found with the war room of the last couple years this is
00:46:53.540 why we handle so many difficult topics and we're not for everybody you know we meet people we make
00:46:57.460 people every day eat the spinach but it empowers them and particularly your clarity drives agency
00:47:03.280 is absolutely dead spot on people feel empowered when they know more and do it the only way to stop
00:47:09.260 this is a populist uprising of the american people we have to because they got all the money
00:47:14.300 they control the infrastructure they control the law firms the communication firms the media treats
00:47:20.920 them with kid gloves you very rarely see tough investigative reporting so where do they go
00:47:26.480 right now to find out more about this yeah so one is there is another path that's a pro-human future
00:47:32.700 And I know your guest, Max Tegmark, is another friend of mine from Future of Life Institute.
00:47:36.700 They have this website called betterpath.ai, betterpath.ai.
00:47:41.540 And it has examples of how to do this differently and some of the proposals and also things
00:47:46.380 that people can do.
00:47:47.140 If you're a journalist, if you're a policymaker, there's some basic things we can do to get
00:47:50.600 started.
00:47:51.480 I can also recommend our organization, humanetech.com.
00:47:54.720 If you go to the AI roadmap, we have an AI roadmap that just shows, here's some examples
00:47:58.860 of the kinds of things that we can do.
00:48:01.020 But really, the first step is that clarity creates agency.
00:48:03.900 It's first making sure everyone else understands.
00:48:06.380 Don't get seduced by the devil's bargain that all of this is just going to go well because
00:48:10.280 it can, quote, cure cancer.
00:48:11.740 Well, what good is curing cancer if it breaks the world or wipes out humanity?
00:48:15.580 You have cancer drugs in a world that doesn't exist anymore.
00:48:18.000 The upsides of this technology don't prevent the downsides.
00:48:21.160 But the downsides of this technology can undermine a world that can sustain the upsides.
00:48:26.720 And so people should just need to understand and repeat these facts. Go host a screening of the AI doc. Again, you can rent it right now or buy it right now and host a screening at your home or local business or local church. And again, you know, we can have transparency, mandatory pre-deployment testing. We can do these social media events for kids under 16. We're seeing schools go phone free and laughter returns to the hallways and the test scores start to turn around a little bit.
00:48:49.740 you know, Jonathan Haidt and his work on the anxious generation. We always say the human
00:48:53.620 movement is already underway. It already exists. And it doesn't matter what political party you're
00:48:57.620 part of. It doesn't matter what religion you're a part of. It is, it is just based on a sacredness
00:49:02.080 of being human and the continuity of the things that we love and cherish. And if you are for those
00:49:06.800 things, then you're for the human movement. Trish, one more time, how do people go get the
00:49:12.340 film today? And then talk to me about September 15th. We've got about a minute or two. I want
00:49:16.120 to just make sure everybody understands and we'll send them to all the sites, but what's the process?
00:49:20.820 Yeah, the easy one is if you go to Amazon Prime and you search for the AI doc, you will find the
00:49:27.120 link and there's like a free seven-day trial of Peacock where you can see it right now. So you
00:49:30.980 can see the film right now, today, seven-day trial of Peacock. You can delete it afterwards if you
00:49:35.960 don't want to have Peacock. And then after September 12th and 15th, the 12th will be when
00:49:40.720 it comes out internationally. The 15th will be when it comes out in the US. And we're really
00:49:46.420 excited for people to be able to host screenings everywhere around the country and around the world.
00:49:51.480 Well, we're going to make sure that we're on Posse, host a lot of screenings. We'll figure
00:49:54.620 out how we're going to do this, all of it. Do you have also social media? Are you on Twitter or
00:50:01.160 anywhere people can go and keep constant updates with you, sir?
00:50:05.420 Yeah, you can. We didn't use social media after the success of the social dilemma. And there's a
00:50:10.540 little bit of that undermining how big of an audience that we have now. But we have to use
00:50:15.140 the tools now because we got to reach everybody just as you are. So you can follow me on Instagram
00:50:19.340 at Tristan Harris. Tristan Harris is my name. And our website, you know, Center for Humane
00:50:24.620 Technology, humanetech.com. And I mentioned we have a podcast called Your Undivided Attention
00:50:29.560 that also, again, has this episode on verification technology for enabling things like treaties for
00:50:35.560 AI. Your uninvited attention. If we would stop with the waking sleep of humanity and see what
00:50:43.980 we see, it's quite clear what has to be done. Sir, thank you so much for coming on here. Really
00:50:48.680 appreciate you. Thank you so much, Steve. A pro-human future, wouldn't that be great?
00:50:56.860 Well, it's within our control. This is a fight we have to win. And you've seen it in your local
00:51:03.460 communities. How many folks have we had on here about how they get rolled in these data centers?
00:51:09.600 This is a fight that we must win. It's not that we, you know, oh, we can do it to a draw. We have
00:51:16.540 to win this fight. And it's going to be a monumental fight because all the power and all
00:51:22.460 the money is lined up against you. It's the kind of fight we love, right? We'll be back at 10 a.m.
00:51:31.440 Eastern Daylight Time tomorrow morning.
00:51:33.820 You're going to be back in the warm,
00:51:34.860 but we're already packed.
00:51:36.460 We'll see you then.
00:51:37.040 We are the fallen soldiers
00:51:42.400 who have fought and given all
00:51:45.340 250 years.
00:51:49.120 We're still standing tall.
00:51:52.980 One nation, another God.
00:51:56.960 May we always be
00:52:00.100 The home of the brave, and the land of the free, for every battle of love was lost.
00:52:10.260 God bless America, sea to shining sea, one nation of the dark, we're united strong and free.
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