00:02:15.160Pastor Wiley, thank you very much for coming on to the war room.
00:02:19.600Tell me a little bit now, most of our audience will actually be relatively fluent in the concept of transhumanism.
00:02:28.940Thanks to Steve Bannon's pushing this along with Joe Allen for many years now.
00:02:34.520Tell us your approach to the concept and why you decided to write this specific book, because I think it comes at a particular important time in both.
00:02:46.340It's providential, really. It comes not only in America's history, but also mankind's path towards what mankind would like to believe, some elements of mankind would like to believe would be limitless potential.
00:03:07.500Obviously, as a pastor, there's going to be a very strong Christian theological element to this.
00:03:14.200Right. Yeah, Ben, thanks for having me on.
00:03:16.620When it comes to the inspiration behind it, the inspiration is simply the fact that we are living in a major shift in terms of our society, our culture.
00:03:29.400there's a kind of tsunami that's washing over us right now and washing many things away that
00:03:36.920we've taken for granted. And then the things that are emerging that this new technological
00:03:44.140development has made possible are things that we're going to need to adjust to and find ways
00:03:51.060to live with and remain human as we do so. You noted that the transhumanists are very enthusiastic
00:04:00.480about these developments because they believe they can more or less use them to level up and
00:04:06.920transcend the limitations that human beings have known in the past. And I'm pretty skeptical about
00:04:13.000those claims, but I do believe that a lot of damage could be done in the name of transhumanism.0.95
00:04:18.840So those are some things that were on my mind as I explored this subject.0.77
00:04:24.620And as a pastor, I'm mostly interested in just how the people that I serve as a pastor are going to be affected by these developments
00:04:32.420and what advice I could give them that hopefully will be helpful.
00:06:19.240Yuval Noah Harari or Ray Kurzweil or Brian Johnson would say we don't.
00:06:26.160Basically, they've tried to reconceive of what, you know, we've been promised as Christians in technological terms, basically engineering terms.
00:06:37.520So historically, as Christians, we've understood the promise of eternal life and the resurrection of the body and so forth as being accomplished by the work of God.
00:06:50.560What they've done is taken essentially the eschatological vision that Christians have had from the start and made it something that really is used to an engineering project.0.87
00:07:05.080And in order to do that, they've had to reduce human beings to machines.
00:07:08.480So they often will kind of in a flippant way refer to human beings as meat machines.
00:07:13.880And that consciousness is just simply something that is generated biochemically, but doesn't have any relationship to, say, older ideas or older convictions about the soul or the spirit.
00:07:27.700So the prospect that we're dealing with now is basically human beings are, as Harari has said, understood as hackable animals.
00:07:36.720And what we want to do, according to these folks, is essentially hack the animal and level up, make ourselves divine in a way that is the product of our own technical acumen.
00:07:51.920And so, you know, two things, you know, one of the things, of course, that the transhumanists want to transcend is death, the sort of the hard limit on the end of life, that as we know it in the body, in the world as we experience it physically, but also expand consciousness, but also knowledge to the degree that artificial intelligence develops.
00:08:17.300So there's a real, in order for all this to happen, there has to be a merger with the machine.
00:08:22.480And Christians, of course, have always understood life in God, eternal life as being something that we enjoy because of our relationship with God through Christ.
00:08:31.480But what these folks have in mind is something along that line.
00:08:35.900But instead of God, we make God in our image, and then it makes it possible for us to live indefinitely.
00:08:44.340so that's that's the challenge we've we're dealing with an alternative eschatology an
00:08:49.460alternative vision of the end of the world do you um do you see this project as forgive me for for
00:08:58.900just saying this coming out and saying this but do you do you see this project as fundamentally
00:09:03.740satanic well yes i i think so uh i think that there are people who say that they're christians
00:15:27.020It's one of the great arenas where Bible-believing conservative evangelicals can come together and work with traditionalist Catholics, putting aside the theology, putting aside the differences, but fundamentally fighting in the public square for a Christ-based culture and politics.
00:15:51.460What I wanted to ask you, and I think some of your own thinking here has pushed up pretty closely on this, Christianity is not particularly tolerated even in the modern secular world.
00:16:06.100But if it is tolerated, it's the form that leaves Christianity as no more than warm and fuzzy feelings, right?
00:16:19.000But if you try to go straight, break out of the reservation, if you will, of warm and fuzzy feeling based Christianity and actually try to use biblical revelation, Old and New Testament biblical revelation as the basis of politics, well, then you really see the intolerance against Christianity.0.74
00:16:44.940I think that's what Christian nationalism promises.
00:16:48.960Could you tell us a bit about your own work here,
00:16:51.480specifically on the idea of a locally focused form of Christian nationalism?
00:16:57.940And as the background of this, I'll just simply say this.
00:17:01.000As I say, we don't really have time to go into it.
00:17:02.660But one of your most famous contributions to the debate in Battleground
00:17:08.620is this idea that the Ten Commandments should be the basis of law.
00:17:12.640Now, of course, that's going to be meat and two veg to pretty much all of the audience, pretty much standard fare, but leaving the rarefied confines of MAGA world and going out into the secular sphere, they think that, you know, they start sort of dreaming up ideas of sort of that, those handmaidens with the red robes and the white hats and all this.
00:17:39.400in your own words, Pastor Wiley, what do you mean by Christian nationalism? And why do you think
00:17:45.960now is a particularly providential time to be working towards that? Well, I believe in nations
00:17:53.140for one thing, and I do believe that nations are informed by some kind of vision of what's best
00:18:00.420and the good. And so consequently, as a Christian, I can't help but say, this is best, this is good,
00:18:08.340this is true. I was strongly influenced years ago in the early 1990s by a book by a fellow named
00:18:14.340Leslie Newbigin entitled Truth to Tell, The Gospel is Public Truth. And essentially what he was
00:18:20.680dealing with was this tendency that we have to privatize and neuter the Christian faith.
00:18:29.160That's simply not something that we can reconcile with the American experience.
00:18:34.040For example, John Witherspoon, who was a Presbyterian and a minister and a college president, was one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.
00:18:43.400This is one of those things where you can just say, well, how do you reconcile the fact that this fellow not only was one of the signers, but one of the most influential forces in the Continental Congress and so forth and did so much to train so many of our leaders?
00:19:03.160So it's not true then that the founders are just basically a bunch of deists who believe in the mechanical god sort of thing.
00:19:15.980That's just a happy, fond reinvention of the secularists.
00:19:23.680I mean, maybe we can say some things about Jefferson and Franklin, but what do you do with Witherspoon?
00:19:28.980You know, this is a guy who actually went out and preached and rallied Presbyterians in New Jersey and Pennsylvania to support the cause of the American Revolution.
00:19:41.300And he did so explicitly in biblical language.
00:19:44.760He appealed to the covenant and how, you know, the king had violated the terms of the covenant and consequently the people had a right to rise up and rebel.
00:19:56.000So everything he, you know, we can say about his influence and his work was informed by his Christian faith.
00:20:05.700He didn't say, oh, well, you know, this is not something that should be spoken about in public.
00:20:12.220So since that's the case, and I think we could go through the Founding Fathers and find many other examples,
00:20:19.040I wouldn't waste any time trying to, you know, sort of read the mind of Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin or even John Adams.
00:20:28.620But I can say that, you know, those fellows didn't have any, those men didn't have any problem working with John Witherspoon.
00:20:36.140So on that point alone, I think we have a basis historically for saying Christian leaders can speak publicly and without apology or without any kind of self-censorship when it comes to their Christian convictions and how those inform government.
00:20:54.840So I think that's important for me as I reflect on my role as a pastor in public life, whether we're talking about in a local environment like a place like Battleground or beyond.
00:21:12.280Sometimes I describe myself as post-secular in the sense that I don't think that secularism has a future.
00:21:19.480I think its days are numbered, and I've been thinking about doing some work on that, but I don't have much to share about it yet.
00:21:29.860But I did spend time at Harvard Divinity School.
00:21:32.980I lived in Cambridge for a decade between Harvard and MIT.
00:21:35.280I have a pretty, you know, I guess a good sample when it comes to kind of the thinking of secularists
00:21:47.180and people on the progressive end of the left spectrum, lived with them, talked to them, worked with them for years.
00:21:55.420So I didn't expect my convictions on this matter to be warmly received.
00:22:02.200It was just kind of, you know, it's just a fact that there are people who really are banking on a kind of secular utopia and don't have any room for people like me.
00:22:17.100But I don't intend to be quiet about the subject.
00:22:20.080what do you think is going to be the prospect for the development of christian nationalism
00:22:28.000in america specifically over the course of the next generation do you think it's going to
00:22:34.380depend at all on who's in the white house i mean i i asked that because under a certain
00:22:39.840uh under a certain light it would appear that the movement has grown a lot since the time that
00:22:47.100that donald trump has been on the political scene do you um for you know for certain obvious reasons
00:22:52.820because he's shown conservative biblically biblical christians that they can win um at the
00:23:00.340whether what they're getting is always what they intended when they voted is a separate question
00:23:05.960as it always is um but it indicates that this that the inevitability of of the the liberal
00:23:12.500progressive agenda as exemplified say by hillary clinton can actually be blocked um if enough
00:23:19.180people come together do you think that that's what i mean when i say this do you think that
00:23:23.860that the movement of christian nationalism can now move forward and continue to grow irrespective
00:23:30.500of of who's going to be in the white house over the over the overcoming years i think so i think
00:23:38.760the primary reason for that is the failures of the promises that have been made on the left.
00:23:46.820I think those are becoming more and more evident, less, I think people are finding it less
00:23:53.340plausible that those things can be explained away. And in the values vacuum, I think there
00:23:58.680are people who are hungry for something to fill it. They want something to fill it. And when it
00:24:05.320comes to the Christian faith, I think that the Christian faith, because it's true, I don't1.00
00:24:10.440believe it. Let me put it this way. Christianity isn't true because I believe it. I believe it1.00
00:24:16.000because it's true. And because I have that conviction, I'm going to make that case.
00:24:22.360These things are true. And I think that those truths should inform our public life,
00:24:29.000our entertainment uh and so forth now how that is carried out how that it's all instituted that's
00:24:35.500all open you know we can talk about that but i do think something's going to fill the void
00:24:40.000we've got like a minute left i just want to ask you if you can give me a minute answer on this
00:24:46.020as a pastor as a theologian as a public commentator why do you um i absolutely agree with
00:24:53.820you that secularism um has really had its moment because it's manifestly failing my question is
00:25:00.460why is it that christ you know because everybody is seeing the same set of facts right why is it
00:25:08.120christians can look at these facts and say yep secularism's failing but the secularists themselves
00:25:13.820aren't reaching the same conclusion well i think it's because their hearts are in secularism and
00:25:21.500it's a very difficult thing to admit that your God has failed or the things that you believed
00:25:26.980to be the case didn't work. So I'm not surprised. I think that there will be a lot of folks who just
00:25:35.100go to their graves holding on to the convictions that they have concerning, you know, secularism
00:25:43.440and so forth. And I'm related to some of these people. It's not like these people are aliens to
00:25:47.480me i mean they're in my family you know so um i i but i but i do believe that the time is up
00:25:55.440and that it's going to become harder and harder for them to justify and and it's not that it's
00:26:00.560not just christians who are looking to fill the vacuum there are lots of other groups that will
00:26:04.780try to too as as we mentioned on the show yesterday the that in europe the um the numbers of adult
00:26:12.620baptisms in the most secular of places on the planet are increasing year by year pastor chris
00:26:18.500wiley author of man-made saint anthony's guide to surviving the ai apocalypse thanks very much
00:26:24.080for coming on the show very quickly where do people on social media reach out to you or follow
00:26:29.820your analysis well i'm on x and i'm on facebook so those are a couple of places that i'm you know
00:26:37.020checking in on every day that's cr x cr wiley 1962 um pastor wiley many thanks indeed
00:26:47.020do come back uh again at some point back in two minutes after this short break
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00:32:10.720thing welcome back well earlier this week folks you might have seen the images from the oval
00:32:18.940office as President Trump just announced the new guidelines separating out a number of vaccines
00:32:27.940because of the concern that they might be primary causes of autism.
00:32:37.520Therefore, we have the author, I think, of one of the key books in the field,
00:32:44.580Not necessarily related to the idea, the make America healthy again, idea of separating out the vaccines, but going into the idea of whether things like autism, for example, or the attention deficit disorder are over overly defined, overly diagnosed.
00:33:12.980whether they're even condition neurological conditions at all sammy timimi the author of
00:33:19.420searching for normal a new approach to understanding mental health distress and
00:33:24.000neurodiversity the book came out in 2025 but i think it's particularly um providential
00:33:33.620at this moment in time sammy welcome on to the show i'm gonna get your you to break down for us
00:33:39.520If you wouldn't mind, in about 10 minutes, just your reaction to the news I was mentioning about the changing of the guidelines with regards to the vaccine schedules and separating them out a bit.
00:33:52.260What I really wanted to, as someone who has practiced as a psychiatrist yourself professionally and a psychologist as well, if I'm not mistaken, both disciplines, I'd like to ask you what it is you mean for a non-specialized audience, what it is you mean when you question whether something like autism is in fact a neurological condition?
00:34:22.260Well, in my work, and particularly in this latest book, I've been questioning the whole idea of mental health, how we think about it, how we categorize it.
00:34:34.160And I've tried my best to point out that the way we've categorized and understood what we call mental health is based on a set of subjective ideas that don't have any empirical support within the science.
00:34:54.320So all our definitions of mental health, and that includes our definitions of autism and ADHD and the whole neurodiversity paradigm, are based on subjective ideas.
00:35:08.400They don't track to any definitive biological or indeed psychological correlate that you can measure in any empirical way.
00:35:19.800So there is an important difference to understand between something like how we define something like, say, diabetes.
00:35:28.420We don't define diabetes by reference to the sorts of symptoms that you may experience,
00:35:36.380because common symptoms like, for example, feeling thirsty, going to the toilet a lot, fatigue,
00:35:43.180can appear with a number of different conditions,
00:35:45.640but also diabetes itself may not present in that way at all.
00:35:49.800We define diabetes by reference to blood sugar that's too high.
00:35:55.140And whilst there may be all sorts of discussions about how high blood sugar should be before we define it as diabetes, there's no discussion about the idea of blood sugar.
00:36:12.680And you can then track what happens to treatment.
00:36:15.440But when it comes to mental health conditions, we're talking about things that are defined by subjective means.
00:36:23.880For example, if you take something like ADHD, it's defined by reference to certain behaviors.
00:36:31.940And all the so-called symptoms, they're not symptoms really, not in a medical sense, they're just behaviors, start with the word often.
00:36:39.020So take, for example, the idea of often squirms in their seat, which is one of the things that are listed as symptoms.
00:36:50.620Well, how often is often? At what age? What's a unit of squirm? How much movement do you have to have?
00:36:57.920So the problem with all these definitions is that, in fact, we literally don't know what we're talking about when it comes to many mental health conditions.
00:37:07.940and particularly in the neurodiversity area, which means that in certain circumstances,
00:37:16.500these definitions can be expanded. And that's what's happened. We're in a time, I believe,
00:37:23.740where culturally speaking and economically speaking and politically speaking, there is a lot
00:37:30.520of uncertainty. People are feeling insecure, lonely. They don't have a sense of things that
00:37:39.760give them meaning beyond narrow consumer choices. And in those circumstances, these definitions can
00:37:49.440expand, and they've expanded horizontally by including lesser extremes of behavior,
00:37:55.040and they've expanded vertically by changing the criteria
00:41:45.500There are, I mean, I'm part of, and I'm currently the co-chair of something called the Critical Psychiatry Network, and we have hundreds of doctors on that network who are basically saying that we've got it wrong.
00:42:00.160We've got it wrong for a long time in the way that we approach distress and in the way that we try and help people deal with distress.
00:42:11.060Within the broader psychotherapy community, I'm probably in the majority.
00:42:15.840I think a lot of people have been scratching their heads and thinking, what the hell is going on at the moment?
00:42:23.360How is it that we've got more services than ever?
00:42:26.280We've got more publicity, more anti-stigma campaigns, etc.
00:42:30.300And yet our mental health as a society seems to be getting worse.
00:42:34.680This is sometimes referred to as the treatment prevention paradox.
00:42:38.160If the approach that we were taking was actually improving our mental health, we should not see this continuous increase in the numbers of people who become long-term mental health patients, who become disabled by their mental health condition.
00:42:55.320We should not be seeing that as a society.
00:42:58.000so that we have there's general agreement that we've got things badly wrong and that we need
00:43:05.580to rethink how we approach mental distress and mental suffering sammy timimi bear with me for
00:43:14.80030 seconds i'm going to come back and continue this conversation in just a moment time to give
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00:45:10.500Is it basically that the whole of the medical profession has been guided towards medication as the solution to things like you're saying suffering to various degrees of mental health?
00:45:26.160Where your approach, I think, seems to be, if I use the word holistic, you're more involved in bringing in the family, bringing in the local community to help people through, if I may put it like this, a non-medicated form of a non-medicated solution.
00:45:47.700Would that be about right as your approach?
00:45:54.640In terms of drivers, what would be behind this is there are many factors.
00:46:03.740And big pharma is an important one because they have the money.
00:46:08.460And I think big pharma realized a long time ago that in order to find profits in a very lucrative area and a very poorly defined,
00:46:21.240And as I say, something that's very subjectively defined is that you have to promote the diagnoses.
00:46:29.640So they involved themselves in promoting diagnoses, for example, the idea that depression is a discrete, identifiable condition that is treatable by things that they started to mislabel as antidepressants.
00:46:47.240There's no such thing as an antidepressant, by the way.
00:46:49.600These are just substances that affect your mental state, have lots of problems in terms of side effects and withdrawal issues and so on.
00:46:59.060And you keep those quiet and you've opened up a market.
00:47:03.460However, what happened since then is that a lot of other things came on the coattails of that.
00:47:11.940So you've developed what I call a whole mental health industrial complex, which includes a lot of different sectors that make a significant amount of profit out of medicalizing distress and suffering.
00:47:27.520So therapies, books, journals, podcasts, courses, influencers, et cetera, et cetera, and very expensive assessments.
00:47:41.940So there's a whole range of products that get associated with the lucrative diagnoses, the lucrative diagnoses like ADHD, autism, bipolar, depression, anxiety disorder.
00:48:03.360I wish I had more time to talk to you about this.
00:48:07.780We're not going to I don't know if we're going to have time to ask you to tell me what your take is on the president's changing of the guidelines and separating out.
00:48:17.420Yeah, look, we've got three minutes left.
00:48:19.220What is your what was your because obviously a huge part of our audience is fully on board with the make America healthy again agenda.
00:48:26.920And there is an overlap in a philosophical overlap in what you're saying here.
00:48:30.620And I'd like to ask you more. We can't do it for lack of time about to say more about what you mean when you say there's no such thing as antidepressants, because a lot of people are on them.
00:48:41.260I guess a lot of some people who in sheer terms of numerical averages, there'll be people who follow this show who will have been given a prescription by their doctor for antidepressants.
00:48:54.240We, you know, we should talk more about that.
00:48:56.460But as someone who's practiced as a psychiatrist and a psychotherapist, tell me just what was your take? And someone who's written this book then, Searching for Normal, what was your take this week on the president's changing the guidelines? Because a lot of people are interested in this.
00:49:16.040well i'm not sure that in itself will make much of a difference i mean
00:49:25.240anything that maybe reduces the load because because because the starting point you don't
00:49:34.640you don't necessarily believe that autism as a lot of people think of it as a diagnosable
00:49:40.480condition actually does exist so if it's if if it's a question mark over its over over its
00:49:47.440neurological basis then you'd work backwards and say then perhaps it's it's not a vaccine-led thing
00:49:54.640right okay exactly autism started as uh being defined as a condition that was considered to
00:50:02.800be extremely rare. And the original prevalence was something like four in 10,000 of children
00:50:12.260who were significantly disabled in many ways, who had moderate to severe learning difficulties
00:50:20.460and were unlikely to be able to live independent lives and had considerable clinical, social
00:50:31.060and educational needs that required a lot of support. But now autism spans all the way up
00:50:37.420to people like Einstein, who've been suggested to have autism. In other words, in terms of
00:50:43.700functioning, we've taken the full human spectrum of functioning right from people who are likely
00:50:49.580to require considerable amount of support for the rest of their lives, right up to the geniuses
00:50:57.240who have shaped science, culture, and our world more broadly.
00:51:03.300So it's fairly obvious that the needs of people at that end of the spectrum
00:51:09.640are different to the needs of the people who require a lot of support.
00:51:15.420And because unless we disentangle this confusion,
00:51:19.200we don't know what we're dealing with when we talk about a link between vaccines and autism.
00:51:24.340so it's your your thesis is primarily that the issues is big pharma is the medical communities
00:51:32.820what did you call that the industrial the medical the mental health industrial complex yeah it's
00:51:39.520it's they're rushing to diagnose autism which is fundamentally the issue rather than than lumping
00:51:46.340get a certain yeah the expansion of that concept yeah fantastic um sammy tamimi author of searching
00:51:56.100for normal the book is available on um on uh amazon uh where do people go to follow you
00:52:03.140either to to get the book or to follow you on social media well i mean i've got a website
00:52:10.660sammytomimi.co.uk and i'm on x um where my handle i think is at s to me and occasionally i'm on
00:52:21.300instagram which is at um i think it's dr underscore sammy to me and the x you're absolutely right is
00:52:30.980s to me many thanks indeed to rob a real america's voice and to vittorio santi franco for putting
00:52:38.340this show together. Steve, back at 10 a.m. tomorrow. If you're 65 or already on Medicare,
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