Based Camp - September 28, 2026


Black People Learned About Sovereign Citizens： The Future Of Law in the USA？

Topics
Sovereign Citizen court system
Hosted by
Malcolm Collins Simone Collins
Mentioned
Robin Hanson Montana Freeman J-U-S-T-U-S. Asmogol Karen
The White House Declares War On Effective Altruism (Right After Our Episode on It ... Curious) Studying Homeless Camps To Predict Future Governments (The Collapse is Coming)

Episode Stats


Length

51 minutes

Words per minute

177.12

Word count

9,091

Sentence count

181

Harmful content

Misogyny

4

sentences flagged

Toxicity

30

sentences flagged

Hate speech

36

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 the confidence of this like you know what i'm gonna put on a court and put you in jail well
00:00:05 literally some have put entire state agencies on trial um the montana freeman tried officials in
00:00:12 their own court and then issued a writ of execution against a federal judge written of execution
00:00:18 like dream big guys um i mean it takes a lot of balls to like show up in a u.s court and be like
00:00:26 i accuse you and we've already tried you and we've got your execution so all the police here
00:00:33 take them in it's very mythological like if you're against mysticism when you look at sovereign
00:00:39 citizens they are applying what looks like mystical rituals to the legal process would
00:00:44 you like to know more hello malcolm i'm very excited to be speaking with you today because
00:00:50 we have an interesting tip from someone who listens to the podcast. They sent me on X this
00:00:58 message. Here's a potential rabbit hole for you. First, the video link, and he sends a YouTube
00:01:03 video. What you'll see are two African-American men claiming to be marshals for the Cherokee
00:01:08 Nation with guns, badges, folders of policies, etc. Why is this interesting? I've seen several
00:01:13 videos now where it's very similar circumstances. They are sovereign citizens claiming to work for
00:01:19 marshal's service for the supreme court etc they all have guns badges folders with fbi most wanted
00:01:26 etc etc and it seems there's a central organization facilitating this behavior so on one hand sovereign
00:01:33 citizen nonsense on the other hand people with badges guns and an organization behind it all
00:01:38 seems like one of your episodes a winky face well thank you friend because i thought about it and i'm
00:01:43 like you know what i'll bite especially after i saw the google trends information in google ngram
00:01:49 for sovereign citizens uh you you gotta so we need to i'm gonna explain what they are
00:01:55 i'm gonna explain yeah we're gonna get into it um so here is the google trends you can see how
00:02:03 over time it actually really has gone on trivially up isn't that crazy i thought sovereign citizen
00:02:08 was like a 90 thing i thought so too and that's what a lot of the reporting indicates but look
00:02:12 here is where's where's the 90s wait wait sorry this is 2005 right um but when you when you go to
00:02:19 google ngram viewer actually but first here's a google trends detail you can still see this is a
00:02:23 very conservative thing right california not a really big deal wyoming huge missouri west virginia
00:02:29 so this is not you know an urban elite thing which is one reason why i think we don't really hear
00:02:33 about it a lot here's google ngram viewer and this is what really got me i was like what what is
00:02:40 happening here yes you do see a little bit in the 1990s going down a little bit
00:02:45 like something is going on okay citizens we got to talk about this um and so i was like you know
00:02:56 what okay uh i bite i'm gonna get into this and um i need to know more this is too weird for me
00:03:01 to ignore the the basically you've got to start by explaining what a sovereign citizen is there's
00:03:07 half of our audience has no idea what you're going on about here yeah um i want to i i don't
00:03:12 want to reveal too much right away um why it's not a system i'll explain it then you you can give
00:03:19 give give the one sentence tldr and i'll go i'll go into it more in a little bit there are some
00:03:24 americans who believe that certain clauses that were tied to the foundation of the country or the
00:03:32 way the legal system works means that if they choose for the law not to apply to them the law
00:03:38 doesn't apply to them and that that's how they think american law works like you need to consent
00:03:44 to have the law apply to you and if you say well i'm just a sovereign citizen like i'm not under
00:03:50 this like sort of like institutional bureaucracy that you opt into i can do whatever i want
00:03:57 whenever I want. Officer, you don't have any power over me. Sort of. And they're usually
00:04:02 very annoying. Yeah. Well, yes, yes. That being annoying and especially being annoying to law
00:04:08 enforcement in courts is like one of their big things. But it's more than that. In fact,
00:04:14 we've also, I realized this was a lot bigger than I thought because I didn't meet my first
00:04:19 publicly proselytizing sovereign citizen until 2022 when we went to that one conservative
00:04:24 conference yeah the right-wing conference yeah and i was like sitting in the vip room while you
00:04:28 were talking to some journalist and i i was sitting in like next to this other lady who was
00:04:34 talking to someone and she keeps going on about how like oh no like don't you understand you don't
00:04:38 have to pay your taxes like you you just that i don't consent to paying my taxes and i'm like
00:04:44 hold on like what are you talking about like you can't do this and she's like oh yes i can
00:04:49 and here's how it works and you just have to understand that you know i didn't consent and
00:04:53 Like, I was just so confused.
00:04:54 But then I realized, oh, she wasn't the only person that we've met who's been touched by this movement.
00:05:00 We also have met, Malcolm, people who literally have been born off the grid, who do not have social security numbers.
00:05:06 Who?
00:05:08 I can't tell you while we're recording.
00:05:11 They visited our house.
00:05:12 They stayed with us.
00:05:14 They were leftists, right?
00:05:16 Or did they?
00:05:17 Not exactly.
00:05:18 I would say they're not politically.
00:05:21 Oh, them.
00:05:21 Yeah.
00:05:22 Okay.
00:05:22 i remember them yeah they were like white nationalists parents or something i don't think
00:05:29 that's true of the family from which this person came and the the context in which they were raised
00:05:34 in fact this is not i would say it's framed by organizations like the southern poverty law
00:05:39 centers is white nationalists but actually it has this growing and significant black contingent
00:05:43 as you can see from the video we're going to start with the video well i mean our friend who
00:05:48 she's referencing here i won't say her name but i think that she sort of represents this in that
00:05:52 She used to be married to a famous white nationalist leader, and now she's married to and has a number of kids with a famous Jewish leader.
00:06:05 And I think with a lot of these types of people, it's sort of just like, you know, any interesting intellectual philosophy that, like, grabs it, right?
00:06:14 Like, and it's really, like, fervent.
00:06:16 and and i don't know i can't speak for these people but i do think that that that is a
00:06:21 characteristic of someone who was raised by this movement it is it is bigger than we thought if
00:06:25 we're just randomly running into people whose whole lifestyles were touched by something adjacent
00:06:31 to this movement i think that's significant here's the video that he sent me what state is this
00:06:36 this is the whole thing you're in you're indians yeah
00:06:40 okay okay is this your government man and you're dead about from the same thing with you this is 0.67
00:06:48 not a driver's license or this is a form of identification but it's not a driver's license
00:06:54 what is your nation good to log your cherokee in those are the guns in the back of his car 0.75
00:07:00 so keep in mind this is two black americans are you gonna keep playing this are you gonna take 0.61
00:07:07 white nationalists um i mean it's not yeah not much more happens i mean like basically they both
00:07:12 get arrested um and that's good to hear but then you can yes yes but like so here's here's what's
00:07:18 going on um in this particular altercation i mean they don't get violent basically a georgia
00:07:24 sheriff's deputy stops his vehicle uh from preliminarily because it has a broken headlight
00:07:29 and a non-standard tribal marshal plate and that's why they're like where are you from
00:07:34 And the driver and passenger claim, as you heard, that they are sovereign Cherokee tribal marshals.
00:07:41 The top comment in the YouTube video was like, Cherokee, huh?
00:07:46 With authority nationwide, they said they had diplomatic immunity and they had no need for state issued licenses. 0.62
00:07:53 And they said they well, I mean, you saw the self-issued IDs that they gave.
00:07:58 And they cite this unsigned document that allegedly was submitted to Georgia's governor as proof of their legal status.
00:08:06 The deputy notes that it's neither signed nor valid.
00:08:09 And also they found after they looked up the driver that he has a suspended Pennsylvania license, despite repeatedly his insisting that he never held one.
00:08:19 They also identified inconsistencies in the driver's name, supposed military history, his vehicle registration, his claims destination.
00:08:28 And they just said that the driver and his companion, that is that they were conducting a confidential law enforcement investigation.
00:08:36 But they would refuse to explain it.
00:08:38 They couldn't provide any sort of verifiable agency or supervisor or jurisdiction or legitimate credentials.
00:08:44 and then after the deputy established that they were just presenting themselves as peace officers
00:08:48 while operating without valid credentials obviously he arrested the driver both for
00:08:53 driving on a suspended license and also impersonating an officer and he arrested his 1.00
00:08:57 friend for impersonating an officer they're malicious in this i think they just are idiots 0.99
00:09:02 right like genuinely that seems to be the case here in that like in the end it actually turned 0.97
00:09:08 out that when they looked further and through their stuff in the car according to the video
00:09:13 at least kind of suggested that their investigation mostly just involved pressuring someone to clean
00:09:19 up their property rather than any sort of legitimate police work and i'm like what of all the things
00:09:24 i mean i get it like and it could have been really bad i mean who knows there could have been a storm
00:09:31 some branches down i don't know but it seemed like a lot of a lot of bullets for all that but this is
00:09:37 very and we'll do an entire episode on this where i point out that like this is very backwoods
00:09:42 american culture this is traditional uh i mean the regulators famously were like an alternate
00:09:47 police force that the backwoods people would organize themselves because they just didn't
00:09:51 trust normal police and uh for a while like that was the main police force in their regions because
00:09:57 they just had a distrust and backwoods culture heavily influenced black american culture and
00:10:01 they're very very very similar to each other super connected foods a lot of a lot of folkways in
00:10:06 general um are distrust of authority high amounts of conspiratorialism yeah and yet they're framed 0.89
00:10:12 just like oh but like the white backwoods people are super racist against black people and it's
00:10:19 like uh not really they're more just similar yeah they're just like yeah and like i mean also
00:10:25 i just feel like anyone who's based they generally got along pretty well historically speaking when
00:10:31 with other white groups um and uh they uh like this is just very much like yeah i'm a police
00:10:37 office with a hat like i gotta handle joe over there right you know like yeah like take these
00:10:42 well what i think is very interesting and why i wanted to ultimately do this even though like
00:10:47 this particular video i don't really see this as a sign of some greater uprising although you're
00:10:51 going to see they're way more organized than at least i thought um in a world in which we actually
00:10:58 aren't really seeing law enforcement follow up with so many things in a world in which now one
00:11:03 of the most viral clips of the week is a uk police officer saying and what am i supposed to do about
00:11:09 it in response to a guy being like what he's doing is illegal like literally the guy is right there
00:11:14 breaking a law what am i supposed to do about it gets in her car you're missing the point he's
00:11:19 breaking the law right now are you serious okay he's breaking the law what i'm he's breaking the
00:11:28 law what am i supposed to do that's gotta be one of the best quotes of all time by a police
00:11:33 constable he's breaking the law what am i supposed to do like in that age where we can have tens of
00:11:42 thousands of dollars stolen from our business we report it to the proper authorities we hear
00:11:45 nothing crickets right you know that even though we're above whatever threshold i would have assumed
00:11:50 would have you know ignited some kind of investigation i think a lot of people are
00:11:53 starting to feel like okay we're gonna need to turn like do i need do we need just to handle this
00:11:58 like ourselves yeah and also we're in on in addition to that which is very much here and now
00:12:04 today we are anticipating demographic collapse in a world in which just literally
00:12:09 cities able to pay their police pension funds let alone their police departments we might just see
00:12:16 a complete shutdown of police services and very very spotty service um someone that we're a good
00:12:22 friend that we're i'm chatting with right now on signal um like today we were chatting about um
00:12:27 falling response times to 9-1-1 calls and she was telling me how in some cities like they're
00:12:33 literally putting people on hold with their 9-1-1 please hold uh which is not i remember that was a
00:12:40 joke that i made up as a skit for a school play when i was a kid well we live in that timeline
00:12:46 now our entire life is a joke that you made up in your high school plays um sorry this was
00:12:52 elementary school, Simone. This is middle school. Of course. Well, you're so I'm quite a sophisticated
00:12:57 humorist. You were, though, actually, given all the other family stories I've heard. It's true.
00:13:04 But yeah, I just I think there's a reason why we should be talking about sovereign citizens now.
00:13:09 And this might actually help to explain why suddenly, for example, sovereign citizen is
00:13:14 skyrocketing in Google and Grand Viewer and trending upward in Google Trends, despite the
00:13:20 fact that most people seem to think that like it reached its height in the 90s but a lot of it
00:13:25 actually is that it's just become a little bit more sophisticated and that the actually functional
00:13:29 parts of it are just on the dark web and like happening and churning along one of the things
00:13:34 that could be happening and this is where we get into complete conjecture and conspiracy theory 1.00
00:13:39 territory is that a lot of people are unfairly discounting it because of the retarded things 0.95
00:13:45 that they're seeing online like this video like these yeah and you're gonna see some of the 0.93
00:13:49 websites. So when you say functioning parts of it, have people been able to use it to get
00:13:55 certain rights or anything like that? Like what have they been able to capture?
00:13:58 Well, I mean, I think what we're what I think may be happening is more functionally off the
00:14:03 grids communities forming. You and I know people who participate in militias, who engage in forms
00:14:11 of private security, which also are not at all weird or exotic. Consider the fact that, you know,
00:14:17 jewish communities in new york city have their own private police and ambulance systems like this
00:14:22 isn't it's it's not technically illegal depending on how it's executed and it's not an unreasonable
00:14:28 thing for a population that feels police itself yeah yes and so i think what we may have happening
00:14:35 to an increasing degree as conventional law enforcement and courts are falling apart
00:14:41 is an increase in this and it's one of those things of like it could be a bad to pay problem 0.99
00:14:46 where you're only going to see it really when when it's really stupid and bad when like the
00:14:53 the lowest capability people find it and run with it and either try to exploit it financially or 0.87
00:15:01 exploit it personally and logistically often those people seem to be quite paired well together
00:15:06 because they're buying the you know kits like those licenses you can pay someone I'll get into
00:15:12 it it's great but first yeah I want to give you a little bit more of a sovereign citizen 101
00:15:16 want an update because it's not exactly what you said it was. But yeah, it is true that it's this
00:15:21 like very loosely connected movement of people that think that the current government is legitimate.
00:15:27 Most statuses do not apply to them unless they consent, as you said, and that they can opt out
00:15:32 of the legal system through filings and wording and ritual. There are a ton of YouTube videos that
00:15:40 you can easily find of sovereign citizens showing up to court and like thinking that they can use
00:15:44 certain words and you see them using them very conspicuously same with dash cam or it's interesting
00:15:50 because it's very mythological like if you're against mysticism when you look at sovereign
00:15:56 citizens they are applying what looks like mystical rituals to the legal process and there's
00:16:02 enough people like hundreds of thousands of people in the united states alone though there are also
00:16:07 and i didn't know this freemen of the land movements in canada and australia new zealand
00:16:12 in the uk so basically the commonwealth countries they're like the mere world version of them where
00:16:17 they also do this same ridiculous stuff so there's since there are hundreds of thousands of people
00:16:22 who participate in this ideology there is just this wealth of social media content of dash cam 0.65
00:16:28 footage and court footage of them making complete fools of themselves but i think that's where the
00:16:33 system is failing it may be starting to hum along quite nicely well they think the united states 0.80
00:16:38 court system works like mormon heaven you've got to say all the right words to get in genuinely um
00:16:44 it's it is bizarre um yeah i mean where it falls apart clearly is when it comes into conflict with
00:16:51 a still sufficiently powerful system in the united states when the court systems and the
00:16:57 police systems in the united states falter more emphasis on the more because they're already
00:17:03 faltering as we can all see who knows what could happen when we get a president comancho now i 0.95
00:17:09 understand everyone's shit's emotional right now but listen up i got a three-point plan to fix 0.96
00:17:16 everything he's gonna be like sovereign citizens are now they do whatever they want 0.95
00:17:22 yeah like we are shutting down our systems now we're shifting to that system because it's free
00:17:28 Yeah, it's like the it's the it's the it's the free open source AI, like super like dumb version that like we can switch to the the LLM response is not going to be great, but like technically it will give a response.
00:17:43 The problem is what really happens when you do this at scale and without any additional rules is you get something like what happened in Chaz, where a series of warlords take over and start shooting people.
00:17:54 right? I do think, yeah, that there are serious governance problems with most of the sovereign
00:17:59 citizen-related collectives, but there are some that seem to be more functional than others,
00:18:03 which is interesting. Because again, a lot of it comes down to, okay, is this one person kind of
00:18:09 holding this entire assembly of people? Is it a group of people that have set up systematic and
00:18:13 sustainable rules? There is variance. And that's, of course, what you would expect from a grassroots
00:18:18 movement like this. But where you were a little bit off in your description of sovereign
00:18:24 citizens is that they don't believe that from the very beginning, the government was off.
00:18:29 They think that the government was secretly replaced, which I didn't know. So they typically
00:18:33 say that the original constitutional or common law republic was swapped for an illegitimate and
00:18:39 corporate admiralty or commercial system. And some people say this happened with the 14th Amendment
00:18:46 in 1868. Some think it happens with the Civil War or the abandonment of the gold standard in 1933.
00:18:52 but at any rate under this old system they would be free sovereigns and under the new one they're
00:18:59 treated as subjects or collateral so there are two types of citizenship uh and per many of these
00:19:05 people common reading of the 14th amendment holds that it created a second class federal citizen
00:19:12 distinct from the original state citizen or natural born sovereign and they think that if
00:19:18 you accept a social security number hence our friend born without one or a driver's license
00:19:24 or a zip code or other government paper it's treated as a contract that pulls you into the
00:19:31 federal and corporate jurisdiction so the key is to go completely off the grid to be free of them
00:19:38 because it's like you know you you created a an account on a website and you like say yes
00:19:43 sort of like magical thinking right oh totally yeah like don't accept the food from the person
00:19:49 of the underworld because as soon as you take one bite you're going to be stuck in the underworld
00:19:53 forever it's very that and so they have this concept of the straw man complaining they they
00:19:58 sort of see that every person is said to have two identities so there's you malcolm the the person
00:20:04 and then there's this separate legal fiction of and this is the straw man that's created at your
00:20:10 birth because you you fool have a social security number and a birth certificate so this all caps 0.94
00:20:16 name on your birth certificate your social security card like john like malcolm collins 0.96
00:20:21 versus you malcolm the person is proof of your corporate shell and then if you have tickets and
00:20:29 taxes and court papers all addressed to the all caps name that's that's like malcolm llc
00:20:35 that is not malcolm the person but what's funny is they're kind of right so let me explain um
00:20:44 oh no if you uh in the united states are born without a social security number um and you're
00:20:51 never like registered right you could get away without paying taxes you just wouldn't be able
00:20:57 to like get a job or make significant money or travel outside the country yeah yeah you wouldn't
00:21:04 You wouldn't, like, you are giving up way more freedoms for that taxless status than the taxless status buys you.
00:21:13 Like, it'd be so cool if, with our company, we just didn't have to pay taxes, but we wouldn't have our company if we weren't paying taxes, right?
00:21:20 Yeah, I mean, the amount of trouble we go through to just set up a business bank account.
00:21:27 I mean, it's easy to set up a human bank account, especially a credit card account, because they just want your money.
00:21:32 but that's because they have your social security number and that's because they can ask for things
00:21:35 although i still cannot believe that companies accept debt from people considering how easy it
00:21:40 is to just declare bankruptcy in the united states that freaks me up but anyway we did a whole debt
00:21:45 jubilee thing on that but i guess you are somewhat right i still think this is somewhat ridiculous
00:21:50 but here's where it got extra crazy for me and i really didn't i think this is maybe one subfacet
00:21:56 of the sovereign citizen um delusion but it also kind of like dovetails into um
00:22:05 oh what's his name everyone loves him he's a t-shirt of him he had a t-shirt of him at
00:22:11 manifest everyone was wearing like his robin hansen robin hansen robin hansen's fertility
00:22:16 bond concept where like when a baby was born the parents would like get their like three hundred
00:22:23 thousand dollar like future and then taxes future yeah they could like sell that bond it takes too
00:22:29 long to explain it's not relevant to the episode well anyway so sovereign citizens believe that
00:22:33 after 1933 the government pledged citizens as collateral for national debt and then opened a
00:22:39 secret account which is often claimed to be six hundred thousand dollars uh to even millions of
00:22:45 dollars tied to each birth certificate so i'm like oh that reminds me of robin hansen's whole
00:22:50 bond six hundred thousand dollars per birth certificate so anyway so here's the problem
00:22:55 is some sovereign citizens attempt to redeem their bond in an attempt to tap that account
00:23:02 to have it like pay their credit card debt or they try to issue homemade financial instruments
00:23:07 like against their bond um and uh courts obviously treat these as frivolous um and often even as
00:23:15 fraud but but it's like it's like magic against yes it's like oh i have the secret money no one
00:23:21 told you about the secret money did they um why don't you figure that out um and of course they
00:23:27 they treat statuses as as or statutes like laws as contracts and according to them if you don't
00:23:33 consent if you don't join the proceeding or use the right phrases like i do not consent or am i
00:23:40 being detained you'll see this a lot in the body cam footage i am a living man woman it's another
00:23:46 thing they believe that the police and and courts lack authority you're receiving an
00:23:51 infringement notice in the mail for failing to wear a sepa okay do your best okay do you
00:23:56 i don't consent to any of this what are your details if that's right just your name and date
00:24:00 of birth i would have to get that to you for so am i under obligation to give you that license
00:24:05 So you provide us to give me your name and address.
00:24:07 By law?
00:24:08 Name and address, yes.
00:24:08 Can you cite that law for me, please?
00:24:10 Yep, so it's the Summary Offences Act, which is 458.
00:24:12 Act, it's on the law.
00:24:13 So do you agree I'm a man?
00:24:16 I don't know.
00:24:16 I'm not going to assume your gender, sir.
00:24:18 I think you can tell.
00:24:19 A man, as in mankind.
00:24:21 I can't assume your gender. 0.97
00:24:22 I can't assume your gender. 0.99
00:24:23 I apologise. 0.99
00:24:24 Right.
00:24:24 Yeah, I can't do that.
00:24:25 Yeah, I'm an 80-year-old lady.
00:24:27 Do you agree I'm a man?
00:24:28 I don't know what you identify as.
00:24:29 A living man.
00:24:30 I'm alive.
00:24:31 Am I alive?
00:24:31 I agree that you're alive, yes.
00:24:32 Am I alive?
00:24:35 is in mankind present in body and mind yeah so you haven't you haven't stipulated to me that law
00:24:40 where i'll have to give you my license yeah so it's the summary offenses act your mobile phone
00:24:44 is there you're more than welcome to look up the summary offenses act go for it act as in the law
00:24:48 okay well so that's all we need is we need to be able to identify who you are okay there's me
00:24:54 baptizing my wife okay that's not that's not that's not an id yeah so it's like having a
00:24:59 cheat code in a video game where they're just like oh oh i can't do it and many also uh claim
00:25:07 that the county sheriff is the highest lawful official and that state and federal officials
00:25:13 are illegitimate so they will actually obey county level laws just not federal laws which
00:25:21 is interesting so it's nuanced it is a fairly nuanced and sophisticated thing which i think
00:25:25 adds to how organized are they that's that's what i want to hear about yeah okay um this is what
00:25:34 surprised me in that there are and this is reported so there's there's some skew to how
00:25:39 this is being reported reported but the anti-defamation league reported that in the 1990s
00:25:44 at least scores of common law courts existed nationwide and some of them still meet today
00:25:51 like actual courts and i did indeed find it's hard to find common law websites because i think
00:25:57 most of them the ones that function have shifted to the dark the dark web and you can't just search
00:26:01 them in conventional search engines and i didn't want to take the time to search the dark web for
00:26:05 all this stuff but um you can actually still find archives of guides to um like old like how to here
00:26:15 let me i'm just going to show you my screen i'm going to show you one of the archives that you can
00:26:18 share screen common law handbook for jurors so here you can download the interesting thing about
00:26:26 what makes somebody go into sovereign citizenship is it's this weird combination of like low
00:26:32 intelligence mystical thinking and extremely high agency it's like high agency people are good i'm
00:26:39 always like i want more high agency people and then i'm like well like let's put some caveats
00:26:43 on that yeah but here you can see if i'm gonna make this a little bit bigger yeah um so here
00:26:49 there's you can see the handbook for jurors sheriffs and bailiffs and justices and then also
00:26:54 there's um they're in all a bunch of different formats i'll stop sharing that but you can see
00:26:59 there are like detailed guides um which has led some organizations to be very concerned because
00:27:05 the guides for example for sheriffs are like you need to use if necessary deadly force to go ahead
00:27:12 and enforce whatever it is that you need to enforce.
00:27:15 But yeah, so there are courts
00:27:17 that are meeting and resolving things
00:27:19 that we do not have insight into
00:27:22 that may just be in some places in some community
00:27:26 just going about handling things.
00:27:29 You mean, did sovereign citizens have their own court system
00:27:31 that's actually working?
00:27:33 Some do, yes.
00:27:35 I mean, allegedly, theoretically,
00:27:37 named organizations at the Southern Poverty Law Center,
00:27:40 although we all know that they just
00:27:42 made up racism by funding that invented the KKK. But they have listed some on their website in
00:27:51 recent years that include the American States Assembly, the National Liberty Alliance,
00:27:57 Reign of the Heaven Society, and then various Moorish nations and republics. And they counted
00:28:04 91 of these U.S. sovereign citizen groups as of 2024, two years ago. And by the way,
00:28:11 just in terms of the this is not white nationalists um i'm going back to my show notes to
00:28:16 find this because i think they're about half black groups yeah so in the earlier days it was mostly
00:28:22 white people and there's sort of this like christian subset where it's basically all the
00:28:26 normal sovereign citizen stuff then with this biblical christian patriot rationale the moorish
00:28:31 sovereigns um the more sovereigns are different and interesting um because like with the sort of
00:28:38 christian variant of sovereign citizens they share this claim that the u.s government lacks authority
00:28:43 over them but then they add this racial religious and pseudo-historical identity framework usually
00:28:49 identifying black americans as moors with special sovereignty or treaty-based rights so some of the
00:28:56 common traits that you'll see with more sovereigns which you have noticed resonate with the video
00:29:01 that we watched at the top that they hold that black americans are descendants of moors and 0.71
00:29:06 sometimes they're framed as moroccan or moabite or indigenous american people so we're all over
00:29:12 the place already but okay oh yeah there's the movement now that native americans aren't real 0.79
00:29:17 and we're actually black i don't know if you've you've seen this movement i can't stand you 0.86
00:29:21 uneducated black creators with a big platform it's too much dna and too many books out here 0.78
00:29:30 proving that black americans are the real indigenous people of america and that native 0.98
00:29:35 americans are nothing but asians who crossed the barren and got stuck over here because the 1.00
00:29:43 goddamn barren melted either stick to mediocre news or pick up a goddamn book that was written 1.00
00:29:51 back in the 15 and 1600s and educate yourself because the corner is thinning out your dreads 1.00
00:29:59 and it's pissing me off well they malcolm they said they were cherokee i should also note though
00:30:05 that the video specified um and it's all linked in the show notes that the cherokee nation has 0.60
00:30:11 nothing to do with them and that the marshals of the cherokee nation are like i do not know who
00:30:16 these people are so how could this must be very odd for the cherokee anyway um they actually 0.56
00:30:23 you native americans are a european conspiracy and yeah they're fake it's yeah um they they 0.53
00:30:30 hold that their ancestry um is is asserted to create this separate nationality rather than 0.67
00:30:36 ordinary u.s citizenship so they're like just different nationals they they hold that the
00:30:42 1786 u.s morocco treaty of peace and friendship grants them personal sovereignty diplomatic
00:30:50 status or sometimes exemption from laws so again a 1786 morocco treaty of peace and friendship
00:30:59 is their trump card there and some adherents also claim pre-existing ownership of or original
00:31:07 inhabitant status in north america like you said where they're like no i am a native american i was
00:31:13 here from the start so either they're moors who had a treaty in 1786 or they're just native americans
00:31:22 and so that makes them extra interesting uh which is very interesting that's very fun yes yeah and
00:31:27 also there's the products with this movement highly entertaining um there are books on amazon
00:31:34 they are delightful they they have they're basically guides so there's the sovereign
00:31:39 citizens cutout book 2.0 cut the government out of your life forever it has only three stars though
00:31:46 18 reviews all of them have very few reviews um the sovereignty blueprint title four flags says
00:31:53 your swag how to travel in the private a lawful guide something something title four flag says
00:31:59 your swag again sovereign citizens deconstructing decoding like it's all very it's all very like a
00:32:06 guide to just going off the grid on etsy you can buy your sovereign citizen license plate um i
00:32:12 should show you because it's so it's so cute uh we should we should just buy one and just get
00:32:16 pulled over all the freaking time for being sovereign citizen because that is what would
00:32:21 happen it's it's kind of inevitable i just can't imagine how they think all of this is supposed to
00:32:28 actually work this is what i talk about when um because this happened in our talk with celestium
00:32:33 that unfortunately got deleted so we'll have to redo but i realized she saw the world very
00:32:38 differently than we did like the way she processed reality was um sovereign citizen no driver license
00:32:45 or insurance required not for commerce use or private mode of travel traveling not driving
00:32:51 free man it's only 1995 but there are 10 left in two carts already so you better hurry up and
00:32:58 draw and no driver's license or insurance required i was just like the laws don't apply it reminds
00:33:03 me of that's like when he's like hey ron you're not gonna slaughter that pig here are you not to
00:33:09 worry i have a permit this just says i can do what i want like actually though that i mean that
00:33:17 basically is what happened in that original video um and there are all these sites too that keep
00:33:23 selling things for actually pretty expensive prices like there's one sovereign citizen
00:33:28 website called aware or a-w-a-r-e are we really educated.com that has a we the people world
00:33:36 citizen passport bundle listed around 1200 and this bundle includes a novelty passport and id
00:33:42 oh or were you just playing a page i'm playing a clip to make sure that i can have it for uh
00:33:48 oh so you don't forget it yeah so this is how spammy some of these websites are by the way
00:33:55 this is the we the people world citizen passport bundle for 1200 three customer reviews but five
00:34:02 stars well almost five stars um oh god yeah it's you have to make a crypto donation or donate via
00:34:09 cap cash app um because obviously they are unbanked for the most part and yeah you have to
00:34:15 just this this website is so it's it's it's very questionable i love the um the pictures that they
00:34:23 send i wonder if the passport that they give to people already has stamps in it i think that'd be
00:34:27 really cute and i think they should do that um but they're very like all the sites have this same
00:34:33 extremely oh my god like very sort of 90s feel not yet and very 90s wait till these people
00:34:41 learn ai i can only imagine the stuff they're gonna make for real yeah this is this is some
00:34:46 i mean look this is clearly made this yeah they're clearly using some ai already um yeah this this
00:34:52 screams open ai right here but it looks good i mean it's the best looking part of their website
00:34:58 i guess yeah i guess they're just slowly slowly adjusting to it but anyway oh my god did you see
00:35:03 i sent you this yesterday i did a google search and it generated an image for me yeah that was
00:35:09 pretty crazy um i guess we get free image generation tokens are you i do have some kind
00:35:14 of plus plan with google i know i mean yeah i i do pay them for like storage and stuff like that
00:35:19 Yeah, and I think that gets you premium AI services, just like built into your search.
00:35:25 Weird.
00:35:25 Yeah. Anyway, so they have these courts. Sovereign citizens also had some historic compounds. 0.99
00:35:35 There was one called Montana Freeman's Justice Township, but justice was spelled J-U-S-T-U-S.
00:35:42 Is that how you spell justice? It seems wrong.
00:35:44 I don't know. I don't spell, Simone. People know this from my title cards.
00:35:48 Yeah. Anyway, it ran its own court. It issued its own instruments. And it sounds basically to me like an early version of seasteading and charter cities. And I think to a great extent, this is kind of like the free version, the poor person's version of future techno feudalism.
00:36:08 You know, as people escape to their walled cities that have their own private security and all their own infrastructure.
00:36:16 Maybe what's going to happen with a lot of the people who are, quote unquote, left behind is they become sovereign citizens and just kind of have to figure out their own court systems, their own justice systems, their own security.
00:36:27 And it's it's pretty it's pretty crazy.
00:36:29 The thing about the current court system is that right now it seems to mostly just involve harassing law enforcement and existing agencies.
00:36:37 so some of these fake courts um would hold hearings but then indict judges like u.s judges
00:36:45 government judges and prosecutors and sheriffs and then they would assign punishments to government
00:36:50 workers u.s government workers one group called the colorado eight was convicted of racketeering
00:36:55 after running such courts against colorado officials so like all these policemen are
00:37:01 getting like you know we have to i don't know you have to go to jail for i don't know doing
00:37:06 their jobs um in oregon and in some of some other ascending sorry oregon and some other
00:37:12 just the confidence of this like you know what i'm gonna put on a court and put you in jail
00:37:17 well literally some have put entire state agencies on trial in parks or online so also it's it's
00:37:24 online internet justice wait do they go to like the park and set up a court where else are you
00:37:29 gonna do it i don't know let's uh let's see look space rental is very expensive these days you
00:37:35 know the contracts to just get like a terrible conference room in a hotel the irs on trial here
00:37:41 people yeah like meet me in lincoln park um the montana freeman tried officials in their own court
00:37:48 and then issued a writ of execution against a federal judge written of execution
00:37:53 like dream big guys um i mean it takes a lot of balls to like show up in a u.s court
00:38:00 and be like i accuse you and we've already tried you and we've got your execution so
00:38:06 all the police here take them in yep um and and to your joke about like writing just your permit
00:38:13 or whatever yes those courts also will issue warrants and liens and sometimes try to hand
00:38:21 them to real sheriffs for service and the standard fbi described tactic of common law grand juries
00:38:29 is that states passed anti-paper terrorism laws in the 1990s
00:38:34 because what they are calling this in many cases is paper terrorism
00:38:40 where just sovereign citizens will spam them
00:38:43 with all these like really bogus weird lawsuits
00:38:46 but it takes time to process all of them
00:38:48 and to say like roughly this isn't even wrong.
00:38:52 The U.S. legal system against five schizophrenic people.
00:38:55 Yeah, for real, for real.
00:38:57 But the question I have here is, why is this exploding now?
00:39:06 I really think it has to do with a response to collapsing justice systems.
00:39:13 Yeah.
00:39:13 And the thing is, it doesn't show up in mainstream, progressive, coastal circles.
00:39:21 Well, I mean, one of the things that's happening right now is social communities are becoming incredibly silent.
00:39:27 and, you know, people outside of our community,
00:39:30 I'm like, well, don't you know that Asmogol said X?
00:39:33 And they're like, what are you talking about?
00:39:34 And I'm like, yeah, it's like one of the most famous people
00:39:37 in the United States right now.
00:39:38 Like, what do you mean?
00:39:39 What am I talking about?
00:39:40 Well, it's, again, this is one element of technofetalism,
00:39:44 which is the balkanization of culture.
00:39:46 And the fiefdoms are not necessarily going to all be physical. 1.00
00:39:50 And this is one fiefdom for stupid people. 1.00
00:39:52 I bet it's got a lot of Pentecostals in it, right? 1.00
00:39:54 You know, like charismatic Christians all the way,
00:39:56 you know to be clear here i am only joking about the charismatic pentecostal movement i actually
00:40:02 quite like the regular pentecostal movement it's just very small in contrast with the charismatic
00:40:07 pentecostal movement yeah look the stuff that surfaces is not great uh in 2017 in new mexico
00:40:14 four sovereign marshals in badge shirts tried to take one of their friends out of jail they called
00:40:20 ahead and they said that they were legitimate law enforcement so it's not like they were like
00:40:24 breaking in they like showed up with their shirts with their badges and were like i'm here to pick up
00:40:29 joe i am legitimate we've decided we among ourselves decided that he doesn't need to be
00:40:36 here anymore yeah yeah um what's funny is today this is such a problem but there are periods in
00:40:43 american history where like this probably was genuinely a major issue like in the west and stuff
00:40:48 like a group of people get together and they just decide well we're a court now well and i think that
00:40:52 you know, in, in more lawless areas, the law enforcement that exists is the law enforcement
00:40:57 that chooses to do the work. And honestly, it's not, it's not always great work. And I think one
00:41:02 of the reasons why this system doesn't work and why it's so stupid now is this isn't actually 0.99
00:41:06 law enforcement. This is people, you know, it's those guys in the original video who ultimately 0.98
00:41:10 just wanted someone to clean up their property. It's mixing law enforcement with HOA women. 0.96
00:41:15 Yes. No, like literally that's what it's going to be. It's going to be Karen's. It's going to 1.00
00:41:20 be the karens being like you can't put your trash cans out on the street when it's not a wednesday 0.78
00:41:24 except the karens will have the giant guns like those guys had like yeah i mean i wouldn't want
00:41:32 to be near those guys um personally and yeah there there is i don't know what's going on
00:41:39 with the the groups identifying as moorish just going off like even recent moorish style groups
00:41:46 in texas were charged with using a fake moroccan and diplomatic ids to evade arrest um in 2021 men
00:41:53 tied to a moorish group called the salagi nation were arrested with tribal marshal plates and
00:41:59 badges and jackets after telling the deputies like with those men in the other video that they
00:42:03 were conducting an investigation so this is just it's getting weird you can't really see a whole
00:42:10 lot of what's going on because it is so heavily offline i mean kind of the point of it is you
00:42:16 have to opt out of the things that give you this is this is right-wing chop or chas right like
00:42:23 yeah kind of kind of yeah i mean it's it's hard to find these people because they don't have
00:42:30 social security numbers they don't have like they're they're trying to erase everything but
00:42:34 anyway what you can find is quite hilarious and it's amusing i i link to other crazy really funny
00:42:40 things in the show notes you should check them out on sub stack and patreon and thank you for
00:42:44 hearing me out on this malcolm i love you simone this was fascinating you guys should check out
00:42:49 rfab.ai or mudpuppy.ai our fab is our chatbot site we've got all the the chatbot adventures
00:42:57 sort of like tell your own adventure story book things you can do we recorded these episodes on
00:43:02 that website we edited these episodes on that website so if you like video recording you like
00:43:06 video editing we offer services there we do uh your card game with ai it's like magic the gathering
00:43:12 but the rules are decided based on ai we got you know all sorts of ai tools for you you know you
00:43:18 want to transform a document into like an audio file or dub anime including the accent anime
00:43:25 including the accent we got based ai on the website which is like a way more based model
00:43:30 than any model you've ever seen we've got um i mean it's that one's a bit intermittent because
00:43:35 it's you know a whole unique model is quite complicated uh what else do we got on the
00:43:39 website we got lots of cool stuff image generation and what i find the most fun is the the newest
00:43:44 thing that i'm really into is model comparison where you can see what the same prompt generates
00:43:48 across all the major image models yes so that's and we also do that for videos so you can compare
00:43:55 them all and we do that for narrative engines too so if you've ever been like what's the best
00:43:58 narrative engine for me you can run multiple narrative engines against your story multiple
00:44:03 models against your story even within the same narrative engine and we now make it easier to
00:44:07 use our site for free so if you're like i don't want to pay you guys i want to use we literally
00:44:12 have it run on kimmy 2 right like that's our free model and for clarification if you were going to
00:44:18 run kimmy 2 locally like you're like what is that compared to like a that's i think a hundred
00:44:24 gigabytes of ram it would take uh so these are you know to run smoothly uh like quite advanced
00:44:30 models that we're offering for free if that's the path you want to go so i was wrong here
00:44:36 requires significantly more than that to get kimmy2 to run locally at full it takes over a
00:44:43 terabyte of ram 1.1 terabytes of ram to get it to barely run you would need at least a quarter
00:44:51 terabyte of ram um so uh that's what we're offering for free and also as a quick aside here 0.98
00:44:58 this is what i mean when i say people who run local models are stupid to especially if they're 0.95
00:45:03 doing it in an attempt to quote-unquote save money where we let you run what would take you 0.98
00:45:09 a terabyte of ram to run free on our fab to just take around so have fun with that
00:45:18 i have a loss to us but it's you know it's a non-profit we're trying to be nice
00:45:25 trying to be nice get more people into ai storytelling adventures you know have fun
00:45:30 i mean if too many people exploit the free system we'll put more restrictions on it but
00:45:35 you know right now yes it'd be nice please let let us you know don't don't do the well how about
00:45:42 this if you're using it free understand that that still costs us money and that what you can do in
00:45:47 exchange is talk about it in the you know the discords where other people talk about you know
00:45:53 all of our competitors be they you know candy ai or janitor ai or soccer fm or you know any of
00:46:00 these older systems just talk about us in those environments and then you can feel like you're
00:46:05 not being unethical by wasting all our money you're also doing other people favors because
00:46:12 the sites are way exploitative way exploiting people's money giving you terrible models and
00:46:17 results and then wasting your money anyway love you oh that's the only way we can really know
00:46:24 that the mics are connected you and your pajama pants i guess there really is something to be
00:46:32 said for man skirts because i feel like the only thing that would get men out of pajama pants
00:46:37 is skirts but i guess kilts have too many folds to be comfortable
00:46:42 do you remember all the people who would walk around wearing utilicilts in the bay area
00:46:48 oh they thought it was so cool and then it became even cooler and edgier to wear skirts
00:46:53 that's true yeah and they had that sort of um it was like a boho look but that looked terrible
00:46:59 utilicilts i can take it looked really ugly yeah and the well and always at the the orgies or
00:47:06 whatever the guys was the skirts i'm i'm super tough because i wear a skirt and uh i love that
00:47:12 oh my god we totally have to do an episode on this effective altruism has broken containment
00:47:16 with the trump white house like department of war being like no no effective altruism the white
00:47:23 house goes to war was effective altruism great episode by the way i want to i want to do it at
00:47:28 some point go over all the white house and who at the white house is instigating this like clearly
00:47:33 it's somebody in our social circle someone fantastic i do not know who but people this is
00:47:39 where i think that they must be watching our podcast like i i know that a number of people
00:47:44 in the white house watch our podcast but like i that it's influencing the culture to that extent
00:47:49 because i don't know any other right wing friend if you're out there we salute you like you are
00:47:55 doing god's work yeah who else is a right-wing influencer is regularly attacking effective
00:48:01 altruists i don't know i mean keep in mind that brian chow has also been raising a lot more
00:48:08 awareness about the fundraising you know we just signal boosted it he was doing the original
00:48:11 reporting he hung out in dc for a long time like he's been to three of our dc parties so
00:48:17 oh yeah and he's got lots of friends in the white house yeah so i think probably this is more of a
00:48:24 brian chow thing but um the uh plug us into whatever network that is the the anti-genius
00:48:33 network here yeah his network is insane okay how's it going on he's been on our show a number
00:48:40 of times by the way if you want to check out those episodes just look up brian chow he's super he's
00:48:45 just so cool too he's he's super cool super chill amazing amazing breadth of knowledge and
00:48:51 i just like all of our ancient friends we can't breed him you you try to hook him up with somebody
00:48:57 i think he had a girlfriend for a while and then he didn't have a girlfriend and then he was like
00:49:00 I don't know.
00:49:01 He just doesn't care enough.
00:49:03 Yeah, well, he's not working for it.
00:49:04 And I mean, you treated it as a full-time job
00:49:07 on top of your job,
00:49:08 like you, you know, every night you were out dating.
00:49:09 Yeah, it's not existential for him.
00:49:11 Whereas it was definitely existential for you.
00:49:13 And this is true of all of the people I know 1.00
00:49:16 who are Asian, right? 1.00
00:49:17 Like that are like in the pronatalist network in Asian. 1.00
00:49:20 I just can't, they're like theoretically, 1.00
00:49:23 like I understand the problem.
00:49:25 It's just, I don't care enough.
00:49:26 Yeah.
00:49:26 I'm like, well, we'd love to have you on board,
00:49:28 but whatever.
00:49:28 i don't know maybe just ivg or whatever and maybe he'll find you know i think it's very likely that
00:49:37 he runs into the right girl on x you know and they too late he's got years left
00:49:44 he's he's in his low 20s he's young he's a wunderkind he'll be okay all right 1.00
00:49:51 i have faith in him anyway we should probably not you gotta you gotta breed those asians 0.96
00:49:57 that part of our fan base is like, 1.00
00:49:58 what are you guys doing?
00:49:59 Only white people. 0.99
00:50:03 Bust them believe what they want. 1.00
00:50:04 Whatever.
00:50:05 I don't care anymore.
00:50:06 I do not care.
00:50:08 You ready to do this?
00:50:10 Ready to do this, Simone.
00:50:11 Okay.
00:50:13 Wait, so what'd you find?
00:50:15 We found a leaf.
00:50:16 You found favorite leaves?
00:50:19 I see your leaf.
00:50:22 It's beautiful.
00:50:23 Look at all of those leaves.
00:50:24 I can hold this many in the world
00:50:28 Torsten
00:50:31 do you think that there's that many leaves
00:50:33 in the world
00:50:34 it says this is a
00:50:37 looks like it's a
00:50:41 Chinese tallow tree leaf
00:50:45 Chinese tallow tree leaf
00:50:47 Chinese tallow tree leaf
00:50:49 Thank you.