Based Camp - Lindsey Clancy is Not the Problem; Women Are (We Did Not Want to Make this Episode)

00:00:00.000 hello simone i know this is gonna be a hard episode to you for you as our watchers know

00:00:08.040 we have avoided talking about the topic of the lindsey cancelling child i can't handle it because

00:00:13.000 it emotionally affects my wife so much i can't log on the internet i just want all the kids to

00:00:17.180 be okay i recently wanted to go into two parts of this in detail that i haven't seen other people

00:00:23.720 talk about a lot and they were brought up by a fan outreach to us because i originally was of

00:00:30.280 the opinion and i know this is going to piss off our fans um that i thought that it was plausible

00:00:37.320 perhaps even very likely that lindsey clancy had postpartum psychosis however i received new

00:00:45.220 breakdown of the what it's like when a woman is in that from one of our fans who is a nurse and

00:00:52.800 works regularly with women in postpartum psychosis that convinced me that this was not a case of

00:00:58.300 postpartum psychosis. The second thing that I wanted to explore is why do women kill their

00:01:05.800 babies at such high rates? And this is something that I was unaware of, both in terms of our

00:01:13.460 culture and in terms of other cultures. If you look over the course of a child's entire lifetime,

00:01:19.460 the rates are about equal for husband and wives but if you look at infancy the rates are

00:01:25.020 overwhelming for wives that's because they're overwhelmingly around the women and not the dads

00:01:30.380 well it's also true if you look at cross-cultural infanticide so there's why does that change the

00:01:37.520 women have the boobs there's been some studies on this if you look at a bird cell estimated

00:01:43.360 systematic infanticide

00:01:45.720 in hunter-forger groups

00:01:47.620 was at between 15% and

00:01:49.460 50%, depending on the groups.

00:01:52.000 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:01:55.400 15% of babies were killed

00:01:57.640 by their moms?

00:01:59.140 15 to 50.

00:02:00.980 Huh? Where am I going to get through this episode?

00:02:02.900 If you look at the EPIO

00:02:04.640 in New Guinea,

00:02:07.080 pre-admission, like pre-Christianity,

00:02:09.900 the rate sits at around

00:02:11.160 41%.

00:02:12.300 um if we look at the ache and paraguay uh the uh homicide rate and this is before the age of 10

00:02:19.900 so they they killed much later which is unusual is between 10 and 14 percent um if we look at the

00:02:26.820 and this is one of these things when people talk about like uncontacted groups and we need to

00:02:30.260 preserve their lifestyle it's not no i'm i'm like man no eradicate their lifestyle what are you

00:02:35.660 talking about take it out end it this reminds me of this african story that i had to read in school

00:02:41.480 about like how colonialism was so bad um and in it they talk about leaving a one twin always to

00:02:47.900 die in the woods and they talk about this is like this horrible thing that like colonizers were

00:02:52.700 ending this practice and i was like what are you talking colonize the out of these people

00:02:57.620 yes bend them over a log and colonize this because clearly they aren't handling things on their own

00:03:03.500 okay it's the book things fall apart where this is described which was a signed reading in my

00:03:10.300 school because they thought it made the christians look bad um if we look at the nasilki inuit

00:03:19.360 people this was a ramassan 1931 um of the 96 births recalled by parents 38 girls were killed

00:03:29.840 that is 40 of them um if we look at australian aboriginal groups in the 19th century this is

00:03:37.720 kalshaw young and even um they put rates at between 15 and 30 percent um and so i want to

00:03:46.620 understand why this happens why do you get these incredibly high rates of mothers killing their

00:03:53.100 offspring what does the science say what do other sources say and i also sat with wait wait so what

00:03:58.600 you're saying basically is like without strong cultural or statutory or both guardrails women

00:04:06.560 just be killing their babies in fact it is so common and the nurse goes over this which we'll

00:04:12.260 get to later in this piece yeah shout out to you by the way we like really love and respect you

00:04:16.340 so thanks for writing in in many countries you're the only reason why we're doing this and it's your

00:04:20.020 fault that i'm not going to sleep tonight but i love you anyway in many countries outside the

00:04:24.960 united states um it is it is until fairly recently in legal history it was legal for moms to kill

00:04:32.220 their kids well i mean she pointed out that even in was it brazil like the maximum sentence is

00:04:39.300 three years so i decided to look up the case of brazil um and it's not that the maximum sentence

00:04:45.980 is three years it's just that that's around what mothers often get uh for some recent cases there

00:04:52.160 was the bello horizonte case where the baby was left in a dumpster um and this she only got two

00:04:57.980 years and nine months for then there was the baluma case where a baby was stabbed with scissors

00:05:02.440 and she only got two years two months and 20 days

00:05:05.660 or some other was it brazil and japan and china very like oh you did it and you admitted you did

00:05:17.080 it now please serve your three years in jail for kill and this is like one of the worst crimes i

00:05:22.660 could imagine no you don't get three months this is an innocent child like it's one thing if like

00:05:28.900 oh you you killed an adult like they had a good run okay but like a child an infant well i mean

00:05:35.840 simone you got to keep in mind you talk about other cultures is doing this is like horrifying

00:05:40.040 thing when we know this was common and normalized in ancient rome until i always thought until

00:05:47.900 today that this was like men or even like external people to the family resting sick

00:05:58.480 um non-viable babies from you know screaming mothers who were too weak in their postpartum

00:06:04.700 state to fight back no it's almost always the mothers and in fact it's even almost always a

00:06:09.480 mother so i was reading cross-cultural analysis the most cruel and sick thing in the world like

00:06:14.020 the a baby the whole the only safe place you have as a kid like that's supposed to be the

00:06:21.600 final safe refuge so i know killed by that so what's important to note is when mothers do it

00:06:28.700 because the lindsey clancy case actually does not match the anthropological record okay um the

00:06:34.040 anthropological record the normal time to do this is before you start nursing the baby um with the

00:06:39.980 the hormonal chemicals that create the bonding to the infant,

00:06:43.840 that process happens with weaning,

00:06:46.960 and that makes it much harder for the mother to kill the infant.

00:06:50.220 Whereas in many cultures, what happens is they go into the woods,

00:06:54.880 basically they have the kid with the other women,

00:06:57.380 and then they, without the husband having any input at all,

00:07:02.400 they get to decide if they want to keep the baby or not.

00:07:05.220 This is the way that it works in many hunter-gatherer societies.

00:07:07.880 basically the wife and the other women who are involved in the birthing process

00:07:11.580 no no no no no no no no no no no no no um and uh and in 40 percent of cases they decided they

00:07:23.620 didn't want them so i want to okay i'm maybe we need to rethink this whole pronatalism thing

00:07:30.140 i don't think we're not for everyone simone um that not for all cultures and i think that this

00:07:35.920 is something that we're increasingly understanding until the 80s didn't give anesthesia to infants

00:07:41.980 they were operating on they just gave them paralytics we're i understand and we have to

00:07:49.020 move and create a new techno puritan society that helps everyone else stay in line um where i mean

00:07:56.700 i think that's the only option right um but i think what what i wanted to at before i go into

00:08:03.420 that lindsey can't see in the nurse stuff is to highlight for people is i think in our existing

00:08:08.680 culture um both the pro-choice and the pro-life movement i think has trivialized the life of

00:08:17.180 children and i don't want to say that again i think the pro-life movement has trivialized the

00:08:22.160 life of children um because if you look cross-culturally um outside of christian and

00:08:29.180 jewish communities uh killing babies was historically the norm uh we've pointed out

00:08:34.540 that like in rome tacticus who were naming one of our future kids after complained that the jews

00:08:38.660 didn't kill babies he thought it was like a weird vegan thing he's like why are they doing this it's

00:08:42.460 annoying right like it's something every other society in human history understands that sometimes

00:08:47.900 you just expose babies when it's they're inconvenient for you or whatever um maybe we need

00:08:52.580 to rethink that name he was cool in most other respects and it was from the pre-christian period

00:09:00.980 okay um but the uh i'm getting the angry look for my wife um but to continue her i want to go over

00:09:09.120 this argument from the nurse because i found this really compelling so she said not sure if this is

00:09:13.960 something you plan to touch at all but in the discourse around lindsey clancy seems very surface

00:09:19.160 level, and I think there are a lot of things we can glean for both the crime and the reaction at

00:09:22.800 large, especially if we try to look at the historic parallels. I think it might be an

00:09:27.080 interesting episode. One, Lindsay Clancy didn't have a psychotic episode. I've worked as a trauma

00:09:34.200 surgery nurse since 2009, never as a psych nurse. I saw a sharp rise in psychosis among my patients

00:09:41.260 after Missouri legalized recreational cannabis in 2020. Now, quick note here before I go further,

00:09:48.060 She's just going to be talking about what she has learned from that.

00:09:51.580 Hallucinogens, I worked in schizophrenia research, which in schizophrenia, you develop psychosis.

00:09:57.420 I've been published in the field.

00:09:58.520 I am a former neuroscientist and psychologist professionally, not like an amateur armchair.

00:10:04.920 A lot of people are unaware of this, but any hallucinogen can dramatically increase the

00:10:09.760 chance that you have a psychotic break, either in terms of a case like this or in terms of

00:10:16.560 it just happens to you.

00:10:18.060 This is the primary reason I will advise my kids to never, ever, ever risk marijuana.

00:10:23.840 It is one of the most dangerous drugs you can take for this reason.

00:10:28.120 And when I say one of the most dangerous drugs you can take for this reason,

00:10:32.180 it's because while it may have a low chance of killing you,

00:10:35.900 it may have a low chance of ODing you.

00:10:38.300 As this person is seeing this increase in the rate of psychosis,

00:10:41.880 you don't understand, if you haven't worked with people who have schizophrenia,

00:10:45.900 how terrifying it is as an illness because the thing about schizophrenia is you don't know if

00:10:54.920 you're born with the schizophrenia switch or not some people have it some people don't now if you

00:11:00.360 have the schizophrenia switch and you don't do whatever ends up triggering it it doesn't trigger

00:11:05.980 and if you can make it to like the age of 30 it's unlikely to ever trigger in you for your entire

00:11:14.340 life you basically made it you're going to live a totally normal life however you can be as one

00:11:21.540 of our patients was uh one of the top people in his class at john hopkins oh that you were studying

00:11:27.880 when you were with yes okay i mean when we studied him he was a homeless person but he was in his

00:11:34.500 early 20s one of the top people in his class in john hopkins something flipped the switch in him

00:11:39.380 i don't remember if for him it was psychedelics or something else uh and then just after that

00:11:43.220 he's not able to live a normal life in society anymore he hears people talking to him all the

00:11:46.560 time he um uh he he struggles to understand what's real and what's not real he begins to develop

00:11:53.680 intense fears um of things like being persecuted it is not a fun life living the life of a

00:12:00.460 schizophrenic individual is perhaps what i'm talking about living horrors you wouldn't wish

00:12:06.740 upon your worst nightmare uh enemy only second to um alzheimer's um and worse than alzheimer's i

00:12:16.180 don't know in alzheimer's you kind of don't know what's going on i mean it seems like everyone else

00:12:19.580 is being mean true yeah so it's worse than alzheimer's yeah uh yes one of the worst fates

00:12:24.520 that can be fall upon in a human so even though the rate is low with a lot of this stuff it is

00:12:28.240 increased and it's simply not worse the fun that any high is going to give you because highs are

00:12:34.800 i'm gonna be honest as somebody who when i was younger and i didn't know about this did a number

00:12:39.260 of different drugs actually it's not that fun i'm gonna be honest like hallucinogens are kind

00:12:42.880 of boring i thought cannabis was more to help people not care about how bad things suck well

00:12:49.140 that's the way some people use it but it's still a hallucinogen okay to continue here these folks

00:12:55.080 typically become my patients by the way if you're older if you're like past 30 in your smoking pot

00:12:59.740 whatever i don't really care um these folks typically become my patients by getting shot

00:13:05.400 by the police during psychotic episodes so they fall into a unique category of committing serious

00:13:10.120 crimes due to psychosis typically a they initially cooperate with police because they believe the

00:13:15.240 police will help them they readily admit to their crimes yes officer i had to set fire to the couch

00:13:20.100 in the lobby because the hotel clerk was trying to sex traffic me to the gas station patrons

00:13:25.240 across the street and that was the only way i could create a distraction you have to help me

00:13:30.160 arrest all the people trying to sex traffic me b they only resist when the police or people around

00:13:35.700 them fail to go along with the delusion and note the delusion that she cites here having worked

00:13:40.480 with people who have had psychotic breaks very normal for a psychotic break um that's like almost

00:13:45.340 a typical psychotic delusion and and they they do believe them well actually i'll point this out

00:13:50.940 have to hurt. And then C, the delusions do not resolve on their own. It often takes

00:13:54.700 antipsychotic medication and a lot of time with psychiatrists. And even then they will often just

00:14:00.440 play along, but still believe the underlying false beliefs are true. They just learn to not

00:14:05.860 advertise and they hold false beliefs. In the case of Brian Spicer, perhaps it's possible for

00:14:13.260 psychosis to resolve once a triggered substance has been metabolized, but I've never seen that

00:14:17.860 in practice um yeah that's that's the thing that i wanted to note here is hallucinogens don't trigger

00:14:23.020 the psychotic episode while you're on the hallucinogens if they trip it they can trip it

00:14:27.060 permanently um and and psychotic episodes don't happen all at once they happen in waves so you'd

00:14:31.600 get one every couple weeks every couple months something like that which you know can make it

00:14:36.200 even worse because you think you're safe to be around and then as one of our patients did

00:14:40.240 saw somebody walking by them on the street with a witch and he had to kill them um uh you know so

00:14:45.520 like the this this is why i was uniquely sympathetic to the psychosis argument having

00:14:51.320 seen this in patients before right um the the other thing that i want to note here is this idea

00:14:58.500 of like you really struggle to recognize something with a psychotic episode like i remember we had

00:15:04.260 one patient who told us about the day when everything was free he's like wasn't that so

00:15:09.220 cool a few years ago when you could just like go into any store and take anything and like everything

00:15:13.720 was free that day um and you now know i mean as a sane person you're like oh so this guy was just

00:15:19.820 like just spent a day stealing stuff wow you never told me about this before yeah you never

00:15:27.760 told me about like your interviews that's crazy no um two her behavior in killing her children

00:15:36.080 was a normal variant of female behavior seen nearly universally across cultures in history

00:15:41.120 Mothers commit nearly all neonaticide killing of a newborn within the first 24 hours of birth, as I said, before weaning.

00:15:47.820 A 2017 meta-analysis states they found that parents committed 100% of neonaticides, 0.6 to 100, if studies only considering parents were examined.

00:16:00.540 13 countries had data, and the vast majority of neonaticides are committed by mothers.

00:16:05.420 It was 100% IQR 92.9 to 100.

00:16:09.240 fathers commit very few neonaticides in this study it was 0.00 percent iqr 0.0 to 6.7

00:16:17.420 child homicide perpetrators worldwide a systemic review pmc according to the same meta-analysis

00:16:24.340 mothers and fathers go on to commit infanticide at similar rates over the course of the first

00:16:28.560 year of life other studies found that mothers were more likely to kill children for a longer

00:16:32.180 period of time the study cases in the united states mothers are the as the most likely

00:16:37.300 perpetrator of infanticide for the first week. And this is from risk factors of homicide in the

00:16:43.420 United States. Now, the note that I need to put here, and I think she clarifies this,

00:16:49.640 is the studies that say in the first year of life, men and women have the same rate of killing

00:16:53.320 infants is actually very manipulative because it includes fathers who are not the biological father

00:16:58.900 who have a very high rate of killing infants and biological fathers have an incredibly low

00:17:02.500 rate of killing infants um if we're going to talk about why this is the case uh it's largely

00:17:08.440 i mean at a genetic level because if um i as a man believe i have found a genetically superior

00:17:15.440 partner a better partner that i'm going to be able to have more kids with and better kids with

00:17:19.300 i can just leave my wife and she'll raise the kids or i can take the kids and have a second

00:17:25.000 wife or you know there's there's a lot of options for a man for a woman who decides that um especially

00:17:30.520 if she doesn't think she's gonna be able to raise the kids on her own uh she might feel she is better

00:17:34.980 off killing all her children and trying again with another man um in in a in a historic context

00:17:40.000 because a lot of guys aren't going to want to marry a woman who um has kids and again Simone

00:17:44.260 allows us to fire you up we one have to build a better society and two that involves a lot of

00:17:50.200 groups and cultures that exist on earth today not joining us in this future well they're not welcome

00:17:56.880 they're not welcome and i and you too often go into this suicidal empathy of like

00:18:03.100 well but it's it's the young not when it's kids no no you don't hurt simone and that's what leads

00:18:12.100 to this it's the suicidal empathy of not dealing with the situation yeah that leads to it happening

00:18:21.300 to future generations but i agree with you around maybe you go some other pathway gene drives other

00:18:28.600 things like that to handle this there there are potential solutions putting people in pleasure

00:18:34.760 pods and saying you could just live out your life in this just no more which most people prefer

00:18:39.500 which is great yeah i mean as we saw from our muslim afterlife episode they'd probably prefer

00:18:44.840 the pleasure look if someone created an option i think even leaflet had this idea of okay what if

00:18:50.920 Like, we just offered $5,000 to anyone, and in exchange, they would have to be permanently sterilized.

00:19:01.160 Like, yeah, let's do it.

00:19:02.960 Like, I'm ready for that now.

00:19:06.140 I'm ready for that now.

00:19:07.280 I only want people who desperately want to have kids for cultural and values-aligned reasons.

00:19:13.860 Like, having a kid is the purpose of their life.

00:19:16.600 I want those people to have kids.

00:19:18.140 I do not want anyone else to have kids.

00:19:20.920 i don't and i don't think they do either so let's give them five thousand dollars and let's do the

00:19:26.680 leaflet plan i think it's great i remember someone pointed out and i think in her feed they were like

00:19:31.440 well that would have meant that simone would have been sterilized i don't care that's great i care

00:19:37.140 i care but i don't think he would have done it yeah i probably wouldn't done would not have done

00:19:43.820 it um but yeah man you're not a lean on the state for your own sterilization i'm really not yeah i

00:19:52.340 i i yeah i think that would gross you out about that would absolutely gross me out i really i

00:19:56.900 didn't like any sort of state sponsored anything so okay then she continues there is a modern myth

00:20:04.620 that men are more likely to kill their children the studies used to support the myth put biological

00:20:09.340 fathers and unrelated male adults in the same category oh she went over this without taking

00:20:13.540 into effect the cinderella effect um familial hearts the emotionless styles of 211 killers

00:20:21.140 oxford academy this is where katie frost tells everyone to pause the video and google the words

00:20:26.520 mother's boyfriend if we assume that domestic violence rates among lesbians shows a hidden

00:20:33.160 pattern of women's true domestic violence tendencies i would wager that women are more

00:20:37.900 likely to engage in violence towards their biological children than men. Recent child

00:20:41.900 abuse statistics show mothers acting alone are more likely to abuse children than fathers acting

00:20:46.900 alone. The FFY to 2024 data shows 89.1% of victims are maltreated by one or both parents.

00:20:56.060 The parents could have acted together, acted alone, or acted with up to two people to maltreat the

00:21:02.140 child. The parental categories was the largest percentages are victims maltreated by a mother

00:21:07.380 acting alone 37 victims maltreated by the father acting alone 25 and victims maltreated by both

00:21:13.700 parents 19.3 um page 43 on child maltreatment 2024 but this may be an artifact from the higher rates

00:21:22.660 of single mother homes speaking of single mother homes i want to get the rates of um white versus

00:21:29.180 the black infanticides oh my god that's not good so the rate per 100 000 children in the united

00:21:39.220 states for white mothers is 1.75 for black mothers it's 6.11 oh god no but but but you want to hear

00:21:51.100 something that is gonna piss off our audience potentially or the the catholic part of our

00:21:55.620 audience is probably going to love this for hispanic mothers it's only 1.39 so whites do it

00:22:01.700 at a higher rate than hispanic mothers that makes sense because i mean at least all the hispanic

00:22:09.880 mothers that we know really really want to be mothers what does this say

00:22:14.220 yeah i actually think you're right about this i think it's the urban monocultural infection

00:22:21.280 of white mothers that makes them dehumanize their infants yeah whereas the the hispanic

00:22:26.360 mothers we know they're less urban monoculture brand and they're more likely to you got to

00:22:29.820 send it out every single word even the big ones which makes it uh you know and again this is where

00:22:37.020 i get to people where i'm like look like the aztec may have been evil right and the mayan

00:22:41.620 may have been evil and the incan may have been evil um but that doesn't mean that hispanic

00:22:47.660 populations might not have some benefit to them um that we do not see within white female

00:22:54.880 populations in the united states right uh and if you look at our community like a lot of the people

00:23:01.020 who people go around like in our in our social networks insulting and saying oh this person's a

00:23:07.420 white supremacist or whatever uh the the one of the types of wives that they have the most are

00:23:12.040 hispanic wives because they're like well you know white women am i right um the point here being is

00:23:21.960 you know it's important to look at these things with nuance right so recent

00:23:27.400 oh sorry to continue here three this behavior has been accepted and condoned nearly universally

00:23:34.440 across cultures and historically these are claims that she's trying to debunk here right

00:23:38.660 so she goes on to say traditions around births in many historic cultures tend to have infanticide

00:23:43.880 built into them and examining the historic record i can't parse out the role of the mother from the

00:23:49.220 community at large in a lot of cases asia mabaki in japan and sex selective infanticide in china

00:23:55.260 korea and india here's a passage from an 1892 about how female infanticide was practiced in

00:24:01.500 china now you probably do want to close your ears on this part so i'm going to be going through you

00:24:06.040 just like wave your hands in a panic fashion and i will put the headphones back in okay in china

00:24:13.300 slaughter of girl babies pmc in these countries the courts still tolerate infanticide when

00:24:19.740 committed by mothers this mother was fined 1 000 rupees or about 15 usd at the time for throwing

00:24:26.180 her newborn off a third story balcony court sympathy for unwed mothers who killed their child

00:24:31.500 note that she was held in a prison awaiting trial and this is a link here that she's sharing in

00:24:37.260 africa there are documented traditions around infanticide specifically for twins or babies

00:24:41.620 who appear to be deformed in some way in some tribes the mother was killed for giving birth

00:24:46.800 to twins or a baby considered deformed uh one example court lenient or mother conceived of

00:24:53.140 killing a newborn europe uh attitudes around infanticide during the roman empire were noted

00:25:01.160 by tacticus and tolerance for infanticide specifically when committed by the mother

00:25:05.260 persisted in europe to the modern era in modern western countries infanticide is a crime separate

00:25:11.060 from homicide conviction of infanticide decreases the punishment for mothers but not fathers

00:25:15.880 infanticide and overview science direct topic for common law countries there are separate statutes

00:25:22.000 for infanticide uk infanticide act of 1938 canada section 233 of the criminal code of canada australia

00:25:29.400 new zealand section 178 of the crimes act in 1951 and south africa in other western countries

00:25:37.180 germany france scandinavian countries these crimes were prosecuted using homicide statutes

00:25:41.520 but applying tradition that grants leniency to mothers who kill their babies see this was even

00:25:46.540 in europe you saw this um like america is the only place this didn't happen germany actually

00:25:51.000 repeated its separate infanticide law in 1998 to adapt this strategy in italy throwing a newborn

00:25:57.140 baby into the trash or expiring it to die is not considered a homicide at all it's considered

00:26:03.220 abandonment this was is this still the case in italy oh my god

00:26:09.720 so i went to ai to you know double check on this because i was like this sounds

00:26:15.760 absolutely insane and of course the ai hems and haws about the nuances of the italian legal code

00:26:22.780 and then of course at the end it's like well and of course as recently as 2023 there was a toronto

00:26:28.940 case where a newborn was left in a dumpster and only convicted her of abandonment and i'm like

00:26:34.520 wait as recently as 2023 you could leave a baby in a dumpster and only be charged with abandonment

00:26:41.520 that's the italian legal system for you note here that ai likes to be very specific but the baby

00:26:49.060 didn't end up dying when it was left in the dumpster and that's why it's okay and that the

00:26:53.480 italian legal system would have treated it differently if it did die i'm like bro two years

00:26:58.420 for leaving a baby in a dumpster like we need to talk about that middle east muslim world prior to

00:27:04.440 islam burying baby girls alive was common practice islam prohibits infanticide but it is still widely

00:27:09.820 practiced and tolerated in countries practicing sharia law in pakistan babies abandoned to die

00:27:14.180 are not reported investigated or counted by government statistics in the link to the article

00:27:21.300 talking about this exclusive abandoned babies police taking cognizance of ghastly crime newspaper

00:27:25.840 dawn.com residing incidents of infanticide neonate and infanticide in pakistan an emerging crisis

00:27:32.500 science direct now i'm gonna put this with the links in the show notes uh which is always on

00:27:36.580 sub stack so you guys can look this up if you want um i'm also going to read something else

00:27:41.480 that Simone won't want to hear um so I I wanted to go into uh the statistics here around um

00:27:50.420 instances in which infants or kids were killed at older ages um and when this happened uh so you

00:28:01.040 have examples of the Nankani in northern Ghana or spirit children this is disabled chronically ill

00:28:06.720 are born during a family disaster uh they are said to have come for the bush and destroy

00:28:10.960 the house. Identification can happen well after birth, and they are sometimes killed.

00:28:16.060 The Minga, Kara, Harmar, Banna, and Ethiopia cursed for wrong tooth order, deformity, or

00:28:22.900 illegitimacy, or parents who skipped fertility rights. Killing can occur when the teeth come in,

00:28:28.680 not only at birth. Some Amazonian groups, Sakaya, Sorara, and others, disability, twins, children of

00:28:34.880 single mothers, also occasional killing of older children. One reported case of a 12-year-old

00:28:39.840 buried alive for wanting to be a woman and i want to note here this does go against our case

00:28:43.500 if we haven't found transness in other cultures but soraya children later judged not to be

00:28:49.180 developing properly are buried alive um why do they have to kill in the most gruesome possible

00:28:54.000 way uh barbaria and similar west african cases that which child status can be assigned from

00:29:00.280 birth signs later development uh dentition etc can can cause this um and uh if we look at groups

00:29:07.780 It's like the Ache, where this has been studied more.

00:29:10.060 This is like a pre-contact group.

00:29:12.080 14% of the girls and 23% of the girls were killed before the age of 10.

00:29:16.240 I had to cast my earphones away because I could first kind of hear you through them.

00:29:20.880 And that was very disturbing.

00:29:22.680 Okay.

00:29:26.540 Thank you for removing me from that part of the conversation.

00:29:32.560 And I will say it has left you as genuine gaps in your knowledge of human history.

00:29:37.300 when you're like but the chimera rouge weren't really that bad to young people and i was like

00:29:41.600 do you remember that i had you covering your ears when i went over that and you're like oh yeah now

00:29:45.900 i remember okay so who do i need to hate um just people in the past everyone who's not a christian

00:29:53.480 or a jew okay basically okay uh i'm just gonna say like they're different that basically what we get

00:29:59.880 is all groups that are not christian than jews now muslims are technically not allowed to do it

00:30:03.700 but apparently they do it at really high rates so christians and jews okay everyone else well okay

00:30:10.920 sorry protestants and jews because apparently catholics do it at really high rates

00:30:18.940 by whose measure the italian legal systems that was probably the most horrifying

00:30:26.640 sorry i made the mistake of just going off of what this woman said i decided to

00:30:32.700 look up the other Catholic majority countries to see if they were potentially even worse in

00:30:38.100 the Italian system. If you look at countries like Poland, a mother who kills her child during the

00:30:42.800 period of birth under the influence of its course shall be subject to imprisonment for only

00:30:46.640 three months to five years. Only three months to five years. Wow, that's horrifying.

00:30:53.220 In the Philippines, for example, if a mother kills a child in order to cover up dishonor,

00:30:59.640 the range is only, um, uh, four months to six years. Um, and, uh, we've seen some very light

00:31:09.360 sentences there. So for an example of what this looks like in practice, um, there was a case in

00:31:14.460 Poland, uh, where the mother got 10 months, uh, for killing a live newborn, um, and then cleaning

00:31:22.140 up the bathroom, hiding the body and lying to the father. Uh, the prosecutor asked for a year,

00:31:27.260 but the court said that that was too harsh. And again, it's important to remember that

00:31:32.620 Lindsay Clancy was a Catholic, right? I think it's important to note that there is something

00:31:38.300 unique. Like when you see a pattern, it's worth calling it out. Like what, why, why do we see

00:31:42.700 this pattern? And I think this pattern is downstream of an entire society pretending

00:31:48.320 they believe life begins at conception when a majority of people in that society don't actually

00:31:54.060 believe it so then they're like well then also a baby's not really alive right and then this

00:31:57.760 gets extended to the entire legal system even currently so apparently it is not murder to

00:32:06.120 leave your baby in a trash can in italy okay again screw italy screw italy yeah italy's gone

00:32:13.120 it's done it's important to remember as i always say that protestants and jews are much culturally

00:32:17.320 closer to each other and catholics and islam like technically in both casales of them in islam you're

00:32:21.780 not supposed to practice exposure but they both practice like the countries where they're from

00:32:25.500 practice it at high rates again look at brazil like you were talking about where it's still

00:32:29.440 practice at high rates we didn't look at italy look at you know um it's not that the rules are

00:32:34.540 different for the groups it's just their propensity of following the rules and people always ask me

00:32:39.440 like why do you have it out for like catholics and it's like well stop leaving your babies in

00:32:43.840 dumpsters like that would maybe like help me um uh like again it's like a it's it's like a why do

00:32:52.380 you view this group this way and it's like because of history and statistics like i i don't know like

00:32:59.680 what i'm supposed to do like i go to one type of country i go to another type of country i'm like

00:33:03.060 this country's trash this country seems to have a civilization right well not for long with all

00:33:08.240 the immigrants right but you know what i'm talking about here right it's important to recognize that

00:33:11.500 Different people are different, right?

00:33:14.200 Anyway.

00:33:16.540 And that groups can improve themselves.

00:33:19.540 That's the other thing I really believe, right?

00:33:21.520 Like that both within Islam and in Catholicism,

00:33:24.240 they have rules against this

00:33:25.420 and they can work to build something that's less horrific.

00:33:31.620 And what we also see is that rules around

00:33:34.020 mothers being punished less,

00:33:35.400 while they might be uniquely horrific in countries like Italy,

00:33:38.100 they still happen in places like Germany and Scandinavia.

00:33:41.500 um not in the united states mind you we are like uh if you want to know moral countries

00:33:48.360 well hold on i mean there are still baby drop locations at places like hospitals and fire

00:33:55.180 they were they when you when you when you push the baby in the baby drop it didn't go into like

00:34:00.260 a blender or off a cliff yeah okay okay it's somebody was on the other side to take care of

00:34:05.840 it yeah that's okay yeah um that that's the difference uh and the baby drop locations in

00:34:13.420 italy they go to a trash compactor and the baby why did you tell me that oh because they're

00:34:20.160 dumpsters yes oh okay continue i will note here for full disclosure when the while it is true

00:34:29.920 that leaving the baby in the trash can or dumpster only resulted in the two years uh that baby did

00:34:35.560 not die and in other cases where the baby has died in italy you have gotten harsher punishments

00:34:39.960 um that said you know you see in other countries like this take france for example you have the

00:34:45.660 case of veronica corcatel who in 2009 um she killed three newborns one she burned in france

00:34:54.020 and two she froze in south korea while living there um she uh ended up only serving four years

00:35:01.740 in prison then you have a dominic corterez uh 2015 she killed eight newborns um and it hid the

00:35:09.500 bodies um she ended up serving only nine years in prison then you have romana content uh this was a

00:35:17.900 spanish origin case tried in france um where she had five newborns that she either drowned or froze

00:35:25.340 to death um and she only faced eight years in prison uh i i will note here that outside of

00:35:31.740 brazil in latin america as we've noticed you know latin american women being less likely to do this

00:35:36.860 of the the catholic populations latin america seems to be the one that takes this more seriously

00:35:41.740 than the other ones not not the european populations as many people think of like the

00:35:45.340 europeans are the good ones and latin americans it's like less simply it's the exact opposite that

00:35:49.420 we see in in practice it's the europeans that act less civilized and the latin americans that act

00:35:54.060 more civilized so the point i'm trying to elucidate here is in america we sometimes forget

00:36:01.580 how different we are culturally even from many european cultures and when we freak out about

00:36:08.140 something like this and we're like oh my god this is inhuman how could this happen we may

00:36:12.380 not realize that this is because we imported cultures into america that are incompatible

00:36:17.900 with american cultural values when it's just a normal thing oh you froze a few babies you burned

00:36:23.500 one alive whatever that's another tuesday go to jail for four years you know we're in america

00:36:29.260 we're like no this is like a very very serious thing because we see the world differently than

00:36:33.100 they do this is not this is i'm not gonna sleep tonight i'm not gonna sleep tonight again it's

00:36:39.160 important to remember not all cultures are the same and we should have some resistance about

00:36:44.200 integrating some cultural groups into whatever society we aspire to build i can't do that

00:36:49.280 it's like we're gonna have to burn it all yeah this is the thing simone you need this fire in

00:36:57.980 you so that when we say we have to take care of x or y or z group because they're acting in a way

00:37:05.320 that is incompatible with what you want to exist in the future when you're like i have to let the

00:37:10.020 wasp go and i'm like the wasp lives in our house simone um then you give a gene drive to the wasp

00:37:16.260 so the wasp can't wasp more than you know handle it in a yes we'll try to find the wasp lives a

00:37:22.580 happy wasp life and doesn't sting anyone um i just i just want everyone to be okay why is it

00:37:30.440 so freaking hard for humans to not be assholes because not everyone has our cultural values

00:37:38.480 Simone okay great to continue here the prevailing modern beliefs that Clancy promoted that give

00:37:47.820 cover to maternal filial side we're all familiar with the line my body my choice the my mother

00:37:53.520 infant dryad is a concept in modern medicine that continues to describe the infant as part of the

00:37:59.900 mother after birth in nursing school this is what I was taught that babies are not me but they are

00:38:05.900 also not other. It's a new third category that exists as a part of the mother. In psychology,

00:38:12.160 Daniel Woodcroft famously said, there is no such thing as a baby, meaning that an infant literally

00:38:18.100 cannot exist or be understood in isolation from maternal care. He preferred to talk about a

00:38:24.760 nursing couple treating the pair as the basic unit of early life rather than the infant alone.

00:38:31.820 And in psychology, Margaret Mahler's developmental model described as early symbiotic phase, roughly the first few months of life, where the infant has not yet psychologically differentiated itself from the mother.

00:38:42.940 The infant experiences itself and the mother as fused as if they were a psychological system without a boundary.

00:38:49.360 Mahler's whole framework of separation and individualization is about how the infant gradually moves out of this fused state and develops a separate sense of self.

00:38:58.400 Now, I think what's interesting about this is I don't disagree that these aren't healthy concepts to have.

00:39:03.640 Well, and I relate to that, which is annoying.

00:39:06.680 Like, I feel that way with infants, like that they're a part of me.

00:39:13.220 When they hurt, I'm hurt.

00:39:15.000 They are an extension.

00:39:17.060 And that's why it's also so weird and creepy when people are like, can I hold the baby?

00:39:21.620 It's like someone being like, can I hold your butt?

00:39:24.960 Like, I'd really rather not.

00:39:26.920 like it's very intimate like let's let's not um like yeah i'm gonna keep my baby and nobody

00:39:34.580 get near my baby and nobody touch my baby yeah it's like someone being like can i hold your

00:39:38.300 breast for a while and no like i really don't want to do this i think it's worse because you're like

00:39:44.780 more worried about them hurting it accidentally or something yeah but it's it's very much like

00:39:49.000 you feel it the same way you would feel like someone like if you're a dude like someone

00:39:53.420 asking to hold your dick um it's extremely intimate if you love the person a lot maybe

00:39:58.660 you'll be like yeah i'm okay with that this is a very intimate thing but yeah yeah of course

00:40:03.020 you know but yeah i i think that's probably if you're dude let's just think of it that way um

00:40:09.600 but i i just so it i i it's it's disturbing to hear about this well then this is being repurposed

00:40:18.980 through the abortion conversation, right?

00:40:21.940 Well, sort of.

00:40:22.560 You're missing a little bit of subtext here, too.

00:40:24.700 A recent video that came out of Lindsay Clancy

00:40:27.420 earlier in her life and career,

00:40:29.760 I guess speaking on behalf of a hospital's maternity ward,

00:40:34.660 was talking about their new hospital setup,

00:40:38.640 which this same listener to Basecamp in front of ours

00:40:41.760 has talked about being kind of messed up,

00:40:45.360 this thing where the baby is always in the room

00:40:47.640 with the mother and even to the point where the mother just cannot sleep sometimes just like wants

00:40:52.380 a break and they'll kind of shame you for like asking for them to maybe take the baby to the

00:40:56.900 nursery for a second so you can sleep for a moment um because they're like well it promotes

00:41:01.460 breastfeeding and you this it's like this really big breastfeeding propaganda thing of like you

00:41:06.040 have to do it you know you have to always be with the baby and you know sometimes mothers which is

00:41:09.820 total bs by the way yeah anyway so she she brought that up to us maybe even a year ago um and here's

00:41:16.320 lindsey clancy um being i guess a face of this for the hospital she was working at at the time

00:41:22.200 being like in our rooms do this and it's it's better for the mother it's it's really not

00:41:26.220 necessarily better for them it's about saving money they don't want to do the uh the the

00:41:30.180 nursery yeah exactly i i do think it's a money saving thing i think she mentioned that too but

00:41:34.160 yeah so that that's that's something she is very very aware of and um has a lot of experience with

00:41:40.240 And then lo and behold, here's Lindsay Clancy actively talking about it, which also shows that she herself has been a part of this, you could say, propaganda wing in postpartum care where it's like, you know, combine and, you know, this whole thing.

00:41:55.540 And it's scary to see things go from that basically a suboptimal for mothers hospital policy, which she bought into, or at least was a mouthpiece for evolving into an ideology that this person is now this listener to Basecamp is now arguing has contributed to women thinking, well, look, I can commit I can harm my baby because it's just self-harm and I'm allowed to commit self-harm like that's it's so sick.

00:42:23.440 it's so sick uh it is it is a uh logical what i'm gonna argue at the end of this and and we'll go

00:42:32.220 into you know what are the chances that she was actually trying to end her own life is we'll look

00:42:36.800 at cases where mothers do kill their infants at later stages because i think we need an explanation

00:42:42.040 her youngest was like eight eight months or something like not not newborn definitely not

00:42:48.320 yeah well you could just say like women are evil but i don't like that explanation i don't think

00:42:53.140 that's a helpful explanation it's not i think we need an actual explanation as to why she did this

00:42:58.920 right yeah um uh other than just one day she decided to become evil um and that's why i liked

00:43:05.660 the psychosis explanation originally so if we bust the psychosis explanation i need another

00:43:09.720 explanation yeah because also i just i can't understand it i can't under because also like

00:43:14.860 if you're just evil look pregnancy is hard um even if you have a smooth perfectly smooth pregnancy

00:43:22.780 it is not comfortable and it is not easy um and yeah you don't go through three pregnant three

00:43:28.520 three of those and then then decide to to do and also i mean unless you're really screwed up i don't

00:43:36.700 think i don't imagine that killing people is pleasant um just i'm gonna argue that um what

00:43:43.940 we're seeing here is uh it appears now to me that she really did think she was gonna kill herself

00:43:51.680 um and that she was doing a category of infant killing that is not uncommon um when a mother

00:43:59.460 decides to commit suicide uh which is you decide to kill all your kids first um and it's it's called

00:44:05.360 like you think you're doing it for like positive reasons or whatever um and i think that if she

00:44:10.880 did it for that reason like that's even worse that is not psychosis that is something that

00:44:16.460 it's murder suicide it's murder suicide which which makes it like way worse like when you hear

00:44:24.240 some trans kid goes and kills his mom and dad and then kills himself you're not like well it's okay

00:44:29.580 because he killed himself afterwards you're like whoa dude like what why do you get to decide to

00:44:35.200 do that right and i think it's this internalization of the kid is being part of the mother um and the

00:44:42.020 I mean, first off, in terms of crimes, I think a kid killing their parents is way morally lower on my, like, list of horrible things than a parent killing a child.

00:44:53.620 That child has no ability to defend themselves.

00:44:57.140 They played no role, in my opinion, in, like, hurting the parent.

00:45:01.040 Yeah, this is where I think we need to go back to, like, if we're like, okay, we've got to have Aztec punishments, like, flaying someone or something like that.

00:45:08.100 This is where I think that makes sense.

00:45:09.440 no i don't i i fully disagree with you on that it's it's like the portal song i used to want

00:45:15.600 you dead now i only want you gone they just need to not be here they just need to not be here

00:45:19.200 no amount of pain or punishment is going to change that the research is clear

00:45:23.280 like scary punishments are not a deterrent

00:45:27.180 they just the only thing that matters is that they are not present that's all i understand

00:45:36.380 And torture and pain, that is just you getting down to their level and being an animal, worse than an animal.

00:45:44.240 No, no, no.

00:45:44.640 I understand exactly.

00:45:45.920 So in the far future, when an AI based on Simone is running a spaceship, and occasionally people are just going to disappear out airlocks or something.

00:45:54.360 No, they'll just vaporize.

00:45:55.660 They will just vaporize.

00:45:56.920 Yeah, I don't remember that person.

00:45:58.140 Painlessly, there will be no – because also, like, dying out of airlock is an incredibly painful, if short, experience.

00:46:03.880 no you will you will just not be there you'll just rapture it's just gone it just you're just

00:46:11.640 um theranos uh not theranos thanos you're gonna be like walking along and somebody's just gonna

00:46:18.280 like disintegrate and that's yes obviously it's that is the only correct way you don't remember

00:46:24.740 them right we wouldn't want you to disintegrate no it would be fine for people to understand

00:46:31.060 why people are no longer there. And they should understand why people are no longer there. But

00:46:37.140 there is no benefit societally or morally for there to be additional suffering and harm on

00:46:44.280 top of suffering and harm. The point is what makes us human is that we are capable of rising above

00:46:50.280 that. There are two directions that homo sapiens can take with our prefrontal cortex. Either we can

00:46:55.720 use the additional capacity of feeling suffering pain and joy and also massive intelligence and

00:47:02.740 agency to do unspeakably worse things that animals can do or we can get rid of all the violent and

00:47:10.380 horrific tendencies that animals had because we don't need those in order to survive and rise

00:47:16.180 above and i only want to be a part of a society that rises above and i will remove everyone who

00:47:22.500 is incapable of that period let's uh i and this is where um as much as i really like the nox you

00:47:33.160 know that as a content creator and everything like that he always goes into this like thou

00:47:36.400 shall not kill when it's thou shall not murder and in regards to like when somebody is an active

00:47:42.120 threat to society um and other people and has done horrific acts like this like these are instances

00:47:48.160 in which yeah like this needs to be right but when he says when he's referring to that he's

00:47:54.640 obviously he's obviously referring to that shot not murder because the the bible the old testament

00:47:59.320 especially is full of clear prescriptions on when people should be destroyed yeah um he's not saying

00:48:05.300 i think some christians and some jews go at this from the perspective of uh they they really mean

00:48:11.980 it like they're they're trying to like signal something to other people about like how extreme

00:48:17.140 mean they are when they don't actually think through like when you take killing off the table

00:48:22.020 one you you move to an anti-biblical position yeah um and and and two like i think we're in a

00:48:28.080 society where for a lot of things um we need to be much harsher in the way that we handle specific

00:48:34.360 punishments um and much harsher in the way that we deal with things and that means one um like

00:48:41.240 in regards to the prison system and that significantly reduce a lot of these practices

00:48:46.000 we have around like the death penalty to make it cheaper and easier to enforce um because yeah but

00:48:51.940 also i'm so glad we're bringing back firing squads because that is genuinely more humane

00:48:57.220 yeah i agree where where is that happening oh i can't remember which state i think it's like

00:49:02.480 tennessee awesome brought back firing yeah there we go autocomplete already everyone's interested

00:49:09.840 Idaho. Go, Idaho. Oh, also, several other states have it as a backup method when lethal injection

00:49:17.140 is unavailable. I wonder if you can request it. I would request firing squad all the way.

00:49:21.220 South Carolina, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Utah. All right. All right. Make it happen in Pennsylvania.

00:49:28.680 Make it happen in Pennsylvania? Well, when we take over, we'll move to an all-firing squad

00:49:33.180 justice system. Well, no, I mean, obviously, I would build better tech in general, but I think

00:49:37.680 right now firing squad is best to continue here the partnership for maternal newborn and child

00:49:43.340 health pmc hosted by the who published a piece explicitly titled the mother baby dryad why an

00:49:50.840 integrated approach to maternal and newborn health in research and practice is essential for progress

00:49:55.240 in which there is an emphasis on considering the dryad and evaluating outcomes not the individual

00:49:59.900 mother or baby the baby friendly hospital initiative i've mentioned the bhmi on calls

00:50:04.900 before pushes the dryad understanding of postpartum care. I hate the BHBFHI, its budget cut

00:50:12.880 and thinly veiled as a quality improvement initiative. Okay. So that there she is

00:50:17.720 Lindsay Clancy promoting it, right? This is the one that you were talking about. Just like we

00:50:21.540 were saying. Yeah. Um, I think the modern idea that babies are extensions of the mother during

00:50:27.380 infancy explains at least part of why women are so tolerant of Clancy's crime. I can see somebody

00:50:34.160 who has bought into the BHMI propaganda like Clancy obviously had being less likely to see

00:50:40.080 her children as fully human. I think this framing provides a modern excuse for women to do what

00:50:45.820 they've always done and kill their babies. The maternal tendency to commit infanticide predates

00:50:50.880 the dryad theory, but it seems to be part of the permission structure we use to excuse why this

00:50:59.240 type of murder is okay. I think there are very different permission structures in different

00:51:03.380 cultures and historical eras that have been lost to history the real question here that deserves

00:51:09.880 to be considered about how society perceives and treats motherhood exploring how motherhood was

00:51:14.760 understood in the past specifically in jewish and early christian culture and rituals within

00:51:19.580 those cultures developed to protect infants from their homicidal mothers and note here a woman is

00:51:24.740 writing all of this to another woman keep in mind how sane when people are like all women are crazy

00:51:30.520 and evil base camp women aren't crazy and evil we have a lot of awesome women in our community

00:51:35.780 who talk with my wife and not with me this woman has never reached out to me um she reached out

00:51:41.180 to us what are you talking about well yeah but she talks with you well yeah sometimes but like

00:51:46.180 you're not excluded you're not thrown out of the long house

00:51:50.220 yeah the new long house the base camp long house the ruthless long house right

00:51:56.520 um policing other women oh my god the three women who tried to get this one guy apparently there was

00:52:03.100 just one guy who wouldn't quit on the jury right hold on i'm glad he didn't either and they were

00:52:07.620 like he wouldn't do it just because of the brutal way she murdered her children and it's like

00:52:11.640 and are you listening to yourself three haggard horrible looking women who apparently yelled at

00:52:18.900 him so much people could hear them through walls if you're like this guy's gonna have ptsd from

00:52:23.140 this but now the trial goes back to trial because it ended in a mistrial so uh she doesn't she

00:52:28.400 doesn't get off automatically and we get to see what happened the real questions here that deserve

00:52:33.040 to be considered about how society perceives and treat motherhood and exploring motherhood

00:52:38.140 as understood in the past specifically in jewish and early christian culture and rituals

00:52:41.520 which those cultures developed to protect infants from their homicidal mothers jewish and christian

00:52:46.880 cultures seem to have successfully stigmatized infanticide and i think rituals around childbirth

00:52:51.640 help to prevent infanticide. The practice of church women in Christian cultures after child

00:52:57.000 birth was derived from Jewish traditions and closely follows the time frame that it takes

00:53:01.640 for a woman's hormones to return to pre-pregnancy levels. Most women have an increased sense of

00:53:06.540 well-being when estrogen is highest. Immediately after childhood, estrogen crashes from the highest

00:53:11.700 levels normally experienced by women to almost nothing, which is why women commonly experience

00:53:16.340 baby blues. It takes about six weeks for estrogen to return to normal or non-breastfeeding women

00:53:21.320 uh of the woman to acclimate to this new normal if breastfeeding hcg is also completely cleared

00:53:28.960 six weeks postpartum and here she goes over like a timeline of how this happens um which you guys

00:53:36.300 don't care about but it is essentially explaining this she then says churching women takes place

00:53:41.280 around 40 days after birth same time frame in the jewish tradition i think this ritual serves

00:53:46.460 to mark the end of the psychological postpartum depression and signal to the woman that the

00:53:51.580 community that she has spiritually returned to normal which makes a lot of sense when you

00:53:55.680 consider hormonal fluctuation what the heck is churching women sorry i don't know uh to continue

00:54:01.880 here presenting the child to the community in judaism this takes place on the eighth day after

00:54:08.420 birth and involves announcing the name of the child in christianity this is done at baptism

00:54:13.640 So the timeline varies based on the church.

00:54:16.140 In the Catholic tradition, the baptism includes an exorcism prayer that the priest leads the parents in in front of the community.

00:54:24.180 And after reading so much about infanticide, that seems like a good idea.

00:54:28.520 Having traditions around naming children, acknowledging them as a person, separate them from you and created by God and presenting them to your religious community seems like it would be a relatively protective of the child.

00:54:40.560 and now i want to get into her argument as to why this isn't true which i found really powerful

00:54:44.840 um my argument is that basically the mothers killing their children seems to be an evolved

00:54:52.820 trait that societies worldwide tolerate and excuse of course most of the jurors wanted to

00:54:58.080 acquit clancy this is how most humans respond when a mother kills children somehow most societies

00:55:03.540 seem to have evolved to be uniquely tolerant of this form of murder or so i don't understand

00:55:09.700 how anyone was surprised by any of this. I think the my body, my choice is very problematic when

00:55:15.020 paired with mother-baby dryad theory, which Clancy had to adapt because of her hospital's

00:55:20.120 policy. It's the dominant policy in the United States, not sure about outside of the United

00:55:23.520 States. But I don't think it leads to infanticide. I think it just helps individuals rationalize the

00:55:28.060 behavior where they're already going to tolerate, condone, justify. So justify, yes, but fuel other

00:55:34.020 cultures without this framework, tolerate infanticide. It's just a convenient way in

00:55:38.400 women in the less to conceptualize this behavior is morally ambiguous. I do think that this

00:55:43.600 particular justification underpins a lot of the current discourse, but all of this ignores the

00:55:49.120 fact that human societies largely tolerate this behavior from others. In order to argue that

00:55:54.820 infanticide is morally wrong in the modern American context, I think you have to engage

00:55:59.120 with the my body my choice narrative um now one of the uh arguments she made here gosh i don't

00:56:09.760 remember reading it do you remember me reading this because i found it really powerful when i

00:56:13.520 first read her make it um is that she didn't think that it was uh postpartum psychosis because

00:56:21.320 in postpartum psychosis everyone is always like uh oh i um no sorry in normal psychosis

00:56:28.560 No, no, no. She said that someone who has postpartum psychosis, per her experience,

00:56:33.280 would never ask for a lawyer, which is what Lindsay Clancy did apparently immediately right

00:56:37.000 after murdering her kids, because per her experience, seeing people with postpartum

00:56:40.180 psychosis, they're like, they don't trust anyone. Everyone's out to get them. Why on earth would

00:56:44.920 they think that a lawyer would believe them? Well, not just that, but they think until everyone's

00:56:48.760 out to get them, everyone would believe them if they just heard them, right? Like, of course I

00:56:52.740 had to kill my kids. It was the, of course I had to light the couch. Of course I had to kill the

00:56:57.900 witch who was walking by me don't you know she was a witch yeah yeah which is that is that is

00:57:03.780 pretty compelling um and that's what convinced me well i don't yeah i don't i don't know the whole

00:57:09.280 story of like how she was found or anything because i can't i can't engage with this but

00:57:14.120 anyway to finish here i started really looking into this after learning about the dickinson case

00:57:19.860 and learning that the maximum sentence for infanticide in south africa is three years

00:57:24.740 oh south africa not brazil okay yeah tolerance for women who kill their babies is a pattern

00:57:29.100 that can't be unseen and i've tried for so many years to understand where it comes from to no

00:57:34.140 avail clancy is just one of the countless data points that falls in line with this trend if this

00:57:39.680 is part of human nature my goal would be to understand it and then be able to better

00:57:44.840 participate when where and how it occurs and how to build cultures and societies that are better

00:57:49.360 resistance to these primal instincts. And I'm going to give my thoughts on how you build a

00:57:54.320 society that's more resistant to this. And I'm going to move part from the beginning to here

00:57:57.620 to better explain this. But the point I would like to make, Octavian, what do you want?

00:58:05.700 I want you to help with my own food.

00:58:08.420 Not right now. Tell him it's in the bucket hanging from the coat rack in the kitchen.

00:58:11.940 It's in the bucket hanging from the coat rack.

00:58:14.720 Okay. I have the answers.

00:58:18.100 you're such a good mom um so good i'd imagine you probably wouldn't kill our children

00:58:24.780 who knows at this point so we need to think in terms of tranches right like

00:58:30.220 first it is good if you have uh prohibitions on killing your children like that's you know

00:58:37.360 number one thing right in terms of lowering the rate that people kill their children um and that

00:58:42.040 already puts you in a pretty low bucket right like it's jewish and christians jewish christian

00:58:46.760 muslim societies right and then we need to ask okay but then why is it that jews and protestants

00:58:55.100 seem to do this at lower rates than muslims and catholics and the answer here in terms of like

00:59:00.740 at a societal level the answer here that i would come to is um i actually think it comes down to

00:59:06.680 the way that you know some people talk about like life beginning at conception when they obviously

00:59:10.660 don't mean that um as i've talked about before you know you have a tank well i'll put the bit

00:59:17.620 i had at the beginning here but in terms of uh the the the point i'm making here is when you go

00:59:28.080 out there and you tell society that because we see this in our comments sometimes we're like

00:59:33.440 look at the mass murder that's happening in the united states we're just like the aztecs uh you

00:59:38.860 know murdering a four-year-old or something like that when when um you know a woman takes plan b

00:59:44.620 or something and it's like even the people who believe life begins at conception if you said

00:59:50.020 pull the power cord on a tank of you know 500 blastocysts you know recently fertilized eggs

00:59:55.820 or take this knife and stab this five-year-old to death nobody's gonna choose the five-year-old

01:00:01.600 right and it's because we understand that even if you think that there is something really

01:00:07.120 meaningful that's being destroyed if a a blastocyst is not allowed to become an embryo

01:00:13.580 um or uh in worst cases i think where you get a lot closer to stabbing a five-year-old

01:00:18.800 is you know when you have a second trimester baby a third trimester baby which you have in some

01:00:23.740 states um but when you equivalent all of this to the same thing you allow the other side to then

01:00:30.620 be like well everybody knows a blastocyst it's okay to kill a blastocyst right or it's not that

01:00:36.380 big a deal um from their perspective keep in mind i'm pointing out but this can seem intuitive to a

01:00:41.320 lot of people uh and was apparently intuitive that you can kill infants to most societies throughout

01:00:46.740 human history um therefore um i can discount when these people say i shouldn't be killing infants

01:00:54.080 and when you see this this reaction to the lindsey clancy child um women getting so excited about this

01:01:01.620 that they are doing copycat killings which happened recently um that they are uh chasing

01:01:06.940 jury members to try to dox them and ending up potentially as 20 years in jail this one woman

01:01:10.920 um that they are camping out and living outside of the courtrooms right that they're making their

01:01:15.480 lives about this on tiktok the pro-life movement has moved the argument to such an absurd position

01:01:25.380 certain parts of the pro-life movement that it has allowed a community of women who have these

01:01:32.240 pre-christian pre-jewish a mother has the right to kill an infant post-birth beliefs to re-emerge

01:01:40.760 um and and i know that we want to blame this and i do think saying oh you can just discard

01:01:46.680 you know um blastocyst embryo developing baby um that's this horrifying thing and that that

01:01:54.900 makes it okay for women to discard a baby post-birth. I think that that's part of what's

01:02:02.760 playing out here, but I think we need to take ownership on both sides to, and obviously the

01:02:08.640 ownership is an equal. I'm not saying that, but we need to be more realistic in the way that we're

01:02:12.280 making these arguments when we compare, for example, American society to the Aztecs, which

01:02:18.760 happened under the comment in the Aztec video. And I think that some people really believe that

01:02:23.520 this is an effective argument point, instead of realizing that what it does is end up dehumanizing

01:02:28.760 already born infants. And I understand that this would be very uncomfortable for many conservatives

01:02:34.460 if it's true. But if the data that we're looking at appears to track, which is not only was Lindsay

01:02:41.260 Cansley a Catholic, but in Catholic majority countries, we see this behavior at higher rates,

01:02:45.480 we're going to go into this in just a second, and we see it punished less, then that would make it

01:02:50.580 seem like these beliefs do seem to correlate with a dehumanization of already born infants

01:02:58.380 and to make this even more uncomfortable because you could be like well these countries are secular

01:03:04.880 now so this doesn't really count actually the laws allowing mothers to kill newborn infants

01:03:11.840 have been significantly restricted recently in countries like spain and france and in parts of

01:03:19.140 Latin America, where when the countries in the past were more Catholic, they were actually much

01:03:24.540 looser about killing infants. Whereas now that they've become more secular, they've become

01:03:29.520 significantly less loose about it. So it appears to be specifically tied to the religiosity. And

01:03:37.700 to sort of sum up, because I've tried to explain my thoughts on this. If you tell everyone in a

01:03:44.040 society that we're going to collectively lie and say we believe something that no one at least

01:03:48.240 emotionally really believes that a blastocyst is the equivalent of stabbing a five-year-old child

01:03:53.880 to death or leaving a baby in a dumpster is the same as taking plan b um people will say well

01:04:00.000 like intellectually i believe this but i don't think anybody really truly this emotionally sits

01:04:07.220 is true with them um and because of that uh they begin to normalize they say okay i am okay feeling

01:04:15.800 the same way i do about terminating a blastocyst as i do about leaving a baby in a dumpster or

01:04:23.740 stabbing an infant to death or burning an infant alive which has happened in france so and i think

01:04:29.540 that that normalization is what creates this psychological license within certain population

01:04:35.440 and here on the screen here just to sort of hammer this point home i'm putting when i say i don't

01:04:41.200 think they really believe this the rate that catholics do abortions against other groups

01:04:45.440 that don't believe life begins at conception and you can see it's equivalent rates even when you

01:04:49.940 take into account how frequently they attend church. Or to word it another way, when you

01:04:56.220 are able to convince yourself that the life of a newborn or one-year-old child is equivalent to the

01:05:04.500 life of a blastocyst, within some people that elevates the life of the blastocyst. But it seems

01:05:11.480 from the data that we have access to within most people that decreases the value of the life of the

01:05:17.480 newborn and it's important to remember when we talk about importing other cultures to america

01:05:23.240 this trial wasn't just held anywhere it was held in massachusetts the second most catholic state

01:05:27.960 in um it was it and we saw it being carried out in a way that looks similar to the way similar

01:05:35.880 cases have gone in catholic majority parts of europe and that's what's shocking to us that

01:05:41.480 we're beginning to see other cultures influence the american legal system um but to expand on

01:05:48.380 what i mean by by this particular segment because i do think it's really important is there was an

01:05:53.140 episode where we looked at catholic rates of stuff like doing abortions and stuff like this when

01:05:58.280 contrasted with other christian faiths that didn't think that this was murder and we saw very small

01:06:03.560 levels of differences, even when you correct for Catholics that are going to church very,

01:06:08.000 very frequently. So even when you correct for levels of religiosity. I mean, so the question

01:06:11.940 is, is why do Catholics and Muslims not follow the rules that they say they believe at the same

01:06:18.180 rate as other groups? And I think it's because they, even in the way that they practice their

01:06:24.540 tradition, show that they don't really take the rules that seriously and that rules are very

01:06:30.100 flexible and are more understood as like a broad story and something that you socially front

01:06:35.300 instead of like super strict rules so an example of this is around idolatry right um so like in

01:06:42.380 islam they'll say oh we're so strict against idolatry you know look at the we'll kill you

01:06:48.060 if you draw a picture of muhammad and then you go into a mosque and it's covered in gold and

01:06:53.040 gemstones and and all the fanciest things you could ever have or you go to a rich muslim's house

01:06:58.120 i mean oh my god you'll never see anything so opulent in your entire life it's like idolatry

01:07:02.640 incarnate and it's because they carved out the narrowest definition of idolatry that they could

01:07:07.220 focus on and then you know ignored everything else or i think that this is the very same instinct

01:07:11.960 when somebody said a blastocyst just killing a blastocyst is the moral equivalent to stabbing a

01:07:19.420 child to death right when i don't think anybody seriously believes this but it's like this this

01:07:25.240 this thing that they've been taught to argue and when you're taught to argue something that you

01:07:28.880 don't actually believe when push comes to shove and you actually make the choice at like a societal

01:07:35.000 level you end up making these negative choices at much higher rates um and so i think that the

01:07:40.780 the best way around this is to say it well it's to basically learn to argue honestly right um and

01:07:48.260 and so when the people in the comments because it was a fairly upvoted comment saying that the

01:07:51.700 America is the moral equivalent to the Aztec torture someone to death,

01:07:56.820 everyday empire for having lots of abortions.

01:08:01.200 I'm like,

01:08:02.760 I don't,

01:08:04.440 I don't think you believe that really truly.

01:08:07.300 I don't think that anybody really truly believes that,

01:08:09.640 but I think that when you teach yourself to act as you believe that when a,

01:08:14.960 when a moral decision actually comes to the shove,

01:08:17.740 because you've got so used to lying

01:08:19.760 about what you actually believe

01:08:21.300 about morality and reality,

01:08:22.860 you find it very easily

01:08:24.660 to fudge on these particular decisions.

01:08:27.440 And that's why I think it's really good

01:08:29.480 to, like, if you're building something

01:08:31.560 with your family,

01:08:32.820 you can say something like,

01:08:34.800 you know, in the eyes of God,

01:08:36.680 it's equivalent.

01:08:37.280 Like, even if you're going to hold this position,

01:08:39.940 but, you know,

01:08:41.300 to a society, it may not be the same.

01:08:45.900 But again...

01:08:47.740 uh i i think that a lot of this stuff is um really uh uh i guess where i am is is i think

01:08:59.160 because i did decide to do more research on her to see if the suicide thing people were like well

01:09:03.300 the cuts really weren't that deep you know uh but it does appear that she dove head first out a

01:09:08.760 window where the fractures were right and some people were like well she lowered herself out

01:09:13.440 a window yeah maybe but if i was lowering myself at a window not intending to kill myself i wouldn't

01:09:18.740 do it head first because if i was a nurse i could understand especially on frozen ground that could

01:09:22.380 kill me and i just need an explanation as to why she decided to do this is that how she allegedly

01:09:29.880 more i need help finding cords because my because the battery for my game boy is totally dead

01:09:41.640 Oh, and how did that happen?

01:09:44.320 I couldn't find a charging cord.

01:09:47.320 Octavian, did you go to the coat rack in the kitchen

01:09:49.880 where the large bucket is hanging and take the bucket down

01:09:52.440 and look inside?

01:09:55.460 I thought I just said in a pier.

01:09:58.860 Dad?

01:10:00.340 No, you didn't say in a pier.

01:10:01.760 The bucket in the coat rack in the kitchen.

01:10:04.820 Okay.

01:10:06.260 Yeah?

01:10:09.240 Okay, so...

01:10:10.040 Octavian, I got a question for you.

01:10:11.880 Come here.

01:10:12.920 Because I think people would want to know.

01:10:16.540 What's your moral intuition around this?

01:10:18.480 Suppose a mommy killed her kids and her baby.

01:10:21.980 What do you think should happen to the mommy?

01:10:24.840 She would die.

01:10:26.320 How would she die?

01:10:28.060 Because she murdered her own kids daddy made.

01:10:33.160 And that's the law.

01:10:35.020 No killing kids daddy made.

01:10:37.880 What about other people's kids?

01:10:39.320 could i kill somebody else's kids no that would also put you in the because then you will be a

01:10:45.280 murderer and murderers gets into jail but it's especially bad when you kill your own kids right

01:10:50.220 yeah um that's like the worst thing you can do and but wait stop octavian don't don't spaz why

01:10:59.560 explain why like morally why do you think it's bad to kill a kid so if if this if if you made

01:11:11.380 the kid it's bad because you put so much work into making that kid so if you killed it you

01:11:20.920 would be wasting like a million dollars wasted work that's your thing wasted work

01:11:26.580 not just that

01:11:28.820 what about the potential of the kid

01:11:31.440 right like the kid had his whole life

01:11:33.260 to do great things

01:11:34.440 and somebody took that from him

01:11:36.380 do you think that's a bigger reason than the wasted money

01:11:39.260 yeah

01:11:40.220 okay and how do you think

01:11:43.320 the mom should be killed

01:11:44.320 what mom

01:11:46.240 if a mom killed her kids

01:11:48.520 how should she be killed

01:11:50.420 oh she

01:11:51.880 should mostly be

01:11:54.600 um

01:11:55.820 um mostly i think um maybe sometimes i don't know maybe their moms won't die or maybe the

01:12:11.380 moms will die i don't know maybe um the way for a mom to die if it cares the kid is just

01:12:19.320 old age

01:12:21.420 old age like she should be put in prison

01:12:24.960 he said have the police shoot him

01:12:27.060 oh have the police shoot them okay

01:12:28.600 yeah and then put her in grave

01:12:30.380 okay

01:12:31.760 well I think you have a strong moral intuition

01:12:35.300 Octavian

01:12:35.760 and I think that you're a really

01:12:39.280 good kid and you're very

01:12:41.140 lucky because I don't think your mommy would ever

01:12:43.100 hurt you would she? yeah

01:12:44.640 because I was her first

01:12:47.340 kid

01:12:47.660 oh so i would like her what about the other kids yeah she likes all plus oh

01:12:55.040 okay but what about daddy yes dad so daddy might kill you no daddy won't so you feel safe buddy

01:13:07.540 i'm gonna explode my hands out of you if you say that one more time i won't okay you can go

01:13:15.460 remember bucket it's it's the bucket where your like helmet is hanging you know on that coat rack

01:13:20.340 it's that big metal bucket it's full of all the stuff and i am so excited for you to get a little

01:13:24.980 older so you can say even more of your moral intuitions because i think they're really valuable

01:13:29.300 to people all right go okay so melcom you're saying what

01:13:37.380 did he make it out okay my read is that she genuinely um because again i think you need

01:13:46.520 explanation for this i thought you need to the only way you know you're gonna die by jumping

01:13:49.560 out a window is it most likely is if it's a six-story window well there are signs that when

01:13:55.160 she was like slitting her wrists and stuff like this that she hesitated um that it appears that

01:14:00.980 she had some trepidation about doing this um that she didn't have when she was doing it to the kids

01:14:06.080 so you know i i to me that does increase the moral culpability she had that she had trouble

01:14:12.000 taking her own life but not her kid's life um with the case what did she do she she cut herself

01:14:18.380 and then she threw herself out a window right uh you kill yourself everyone knows that's not

01:14:23.640 how you kill yourself especially a nurse yeah everyone knows you have to i mean maybe if she

01:14:28.760 was in a warm bathtub and she did it yeah but she drove into frozen weather with cuts which

01:14:35.320 she immediately stopped the bleeding.

01:14:36.540 She wasn't even bleeding when they found her.

01:14:38.160 Wait, she got in a car after jumping out a window?

01:14:40.640 No, in frozen weather.

01:14:41.960 The outside was cold.

01:14:43.520 Oh.

01:14:44.920 She's a nurse.

01:14:46.020 No, okay, that's...

01:14:48.400 She wasn't trying to hurt herself.

01:14:50.340 I mean, she was...

01:14:51.280 Well, then why do you think she did it?

01:14:53.280 Like, what's your motivation?

01:14:55.760 I mean, obviously she's made a million dollars,

01:14:57.720 but I wouldn't have predicted that.

01:15:00.320 Oh, the raising $6 million thing?

01:15:02.600 That's for her legal fund anyway, I think.

01:15:04.280 or three million dollars her her legal fund is her go fund me it's like 3.3 million continue

01:15:09.900 no i i can't i cannot fathom

01:15:13.860 why someone would do this i can't there's just nothing there's nothing in me even like it would

01:15:21.580 be easier if there was some female serial killer but like to bring your own children into the world

01:15:30.080 and also like something really snapped with me i mean this is coming from someone who i like i

01:15:35.720 told you point blank before i had octavian that i wasn't sure i would love our kids

01:15:39.080 she did by the way and she really meant it and i was like really meant it for you yeah i was i was

01:15:44.060 i was genuinely concerned because i am not a kid person did i make you feel any better the way i

01:15:47.800 responded to that when i was just like yeah i felt really safe about it um and i've always felt

01:15:52.040 really grateful to you for all that and i've always i never had any doubt in my heart that

01:15:56.260 you would adore our children and but what shocked me and what makes this even more disturbing and

01:16:01.880 shocking for me is that after I had kids and especially more kids it got more powerful with

01:16:09.780 each new kid I have I cannot I can't even like hear about other people's kids like I will watch

01:16:17.680 an adult get hurt now and I'll be like that person was once a child and then I start crying

01:16:23.140 That is how bad it is. The level of vulnerability and emotional care that having kids has opened up to me. I don't know how she didn't have that. There's this barrier that would prevent me from doing that.

01:16:44.160 and so that's i can't wrap my head around that but then even just from a logical standpoint like

01:16:47.940 let's pretend just something hormonally didn't happen to her that happened to me and she doesn't

01:16:51.900 have that barrier that would prevent her from hurting her children why like why put your body

01:16:59.500 through that and like all the stuff and all the investment and then do that oh by the way Simone

01:17:06.660 this is i mean i think this is why there's that most of her defenders just think her husband did

01:17:13.240 it because because they can't imagine well and again it can be hard like lindsey clancy i don't

01:17:18.540 know if you are aware of this but she was a catholic um and if you're oh great oh great

01:17:23.340 fantastic again and i genuinely patterns people like this is the thing i know that the patterns

01:17:31.160 are there are you double checking i know i'm just getting a day since malcolm rails against

01:17:35.840 catholics counter oh ours actually yeah hours since accident counter

01:17:44.820 there we go yep oh you can oh that one's expensive led digital safety scoreboard days

01:17:53.300 without accident counter no you're gonna put that in the background of the podcast it has a remote

01:17:58.440 um but i can get oh there are battery powered ones that cost these are expensive what a

01:18:03.560 oh man this is all for stupid compliance stuff they're charging way too much way too much i'm

01:18:10.180 just gonna have to get a whiteboard or something what a 322 for a disgusting hold on i gotta i

01:18:17.200 gotta use your your amazing podcast editing software so i can i can share um my screen here

01:18:22.980 um because it's actually really good okay look at this this ridiculous for this disgusting eagle i

01:18:29.700 mean i love i love patriotism but this is this is an affront to design 329 what what yeah what is

01:18:37.280 this it is it is one like one of those stupid compliance things i bet it's like some people

01:18:40.800 are statutorily required to have oh there we go oh no that's a countdown it's see look at this

01:18:48.920 199 your safety starts here that this must be a statutory like people are legally required to buy

01:18:55.580 of these so they make these horrible looking counters anyway i'll i'll maybe i'll get one

01:19:01.460 like on etsy that's uh see this one would have been great this is fine 128 that is ridiculous

01:19:09.600 shame shame anyway um really nice feature thank you for thank you for building that feature

01:19:17.420 i appreciate it it's good this is this has been horrible i'm traumatized i but i but i think the

01:19:27.580 core takeaways for me in doing this is one have strict prohibitions against it two yes it's useful

01:19:33.580 to contextualize the kids as being part of the mother but the responsibility the mother has is

01:19:37.780 to the future child who's going to be an adult not to the baby right yeah yeah it's it's um it's like

01:19:43.860 a one-way membrane barrier i don't remember what those are called we're like you give your child

01:19:51.300 every bit of self-preservation and defense and self-care you have in fact to your own detriment

01:19:56.360 but none of your self-hatred and self-loathing and self-harm is allowed to pass and that's at

01:20:03.100 least what i feel hormonally i just don't know how that's not passing to other people and what's

01:20:09.140 disturbing and i don't know if you covered this but it's like the copycat cases that are happening

01:20:13.160 that a woman who was very invested in their case

01:20:16.120 just killed their two-year-old.

01:20:18.280 In Lindsay Clancy's case,

01:20:19.700 it's clear that there was an influence there.

01:20:22.440 And now women are also doing these TikTok videos

01:20:24.680 where they are acting out their internalized thoughts

01:20:27.840 about their children,

01:20:29.060 where they'll have these videos

01:20:30.400 where they'll film themselves

01:20:32.000 carrying their kids around the house,

01:20:34.060 like through a doorway, say.

01:20:35.640 And then they'll cut the video in the middle

01:20:38.780 and be holding a baby doll

01:20:40.680 and slam the baby doll's head against the door.

01:20:42.720 that kind of thing you know like throw baby dolls out windows um and intercut with footage of them

01:20:48.000 with their actual kids so we know their mother's great them acting out these internalized thoughts

01:20:52.680 this is all downstream of lindsey clancy this is why i can't be on the internet anymore i just can't

01:20:57.980 i just can't i i like everywhere i go someone's talking about this and and and it the horrible

01:21:05.560 thing is the the act of talking about it appears to be making it happen more here's another thing

01:21:11.520 that made this worse and i think that this is a problem that a lot of christian groups have as

01:21:16.400 well in terms of dealing with this is they'll go out there and they'll say you know abortion is

01:21:24.200 murder or whatever right killing babies murder but that baby is immediately in heaven when they

01:21:30.020 die and that's how lindsey clancy justified this to herself as a catholic is that what she said

01:21:35.580 yeah she said that she knew that the babies would go directly to heaven so uh she'd be able to

01:21:41.340 join them there when she killed herself and it would be fine that's no you don't she's you don't

01:21:48.540 go to heaven when you murder children this at the very least she thought they went to heaven right

01:21:55.560 um and so this idea that um you know the overly easy heaven i think is also a problem right like

01:22:04.920 just all babies go to heaven you don't need to worry about it everything's fine um i think that

01:22:09.280 can also create immoral behavior because then it's easy right like why not right like if you've

01:22:15.480 already consigned yourself to not going to heaven um or you have a lapse of moral judgment about

01:22:23.000 yourself like well i'm doing this for a good reason therefore it's okay

01:22:26.140 I have so little chill with this

01:22:32.920 yeah well I'm interested in in in the uh copycat actually why did she think it was okay

01:22:44.660 I don't know it just happened so I think it's all I don't know if there's much understanding

01:22:50.500 as to why and how it happened well now you guys owe us because you made Simone go through this

01:22:55.500 moral torment so congrats thanks guys assholes and look i mean there are multiple people who

01:23:05.460 requested this episode did so i i hold you all i hold you all responsible for the future sleepless

01:23:11.040 night um well why don't you sign up for our substack or patreon you know you can money

01:23:17.180 always i can cry into the dollar bills it'll be great yeah just keep keep in mind that you're

01:23:26.380 going to be contributing to someone who if they gain any insane amount of power is probably going

01:23:32.100 to do unspeakable vaporizing things to people that hurt children so uh very interesting the

01:23:40.000 woman who did the copycat killing um was sort of an inversion of lindsey clancy lindsey clancy was

01:23:46.720 like well she wanted to give her kids to go to god or go to heaven so that they could you know

01:23:51.540 immediately be in heaven whereas the copycat killer said that her child was the devil or the

01:23:56.760 antichrist um and so again for both of these women i want to point this out here when you want to be

01:24:02.520 like this is the problem of secular society both of these women did this for partially religious

01:24:06.960 reasons um and they are in versions of each other where lindsey clancy the original case may have

01:24:14.580 had some sort of twisted even i don't know whatever but the other one seemed to the one

01:24:19.200 who obsessively followed the lindsey clancy case seemed to hate her children it's disgusting and

01:24:25.620 i think that that was brought up by the way people have reacted to the lindsey clancy case

01:24:29.740 these acting out of the things i want to do to my children because i hate them etc

01:24:35.820 anyway love you simone and thank you for not killing our kids

01:24:38.800 i'm gonna crawl under a rock never come out except to take care of our kids this is why

01:24:49.860 the techno puritans have to win create a city on a hill and then handle the rest of civilization

01:24:55.920 i believe we're saying octavian's addiction to gi joe because their theme song is stuck in my head

01:25:02.900 and it's this g i joe g i joe was there g i joe versus cobra the enemy

01:25:12.260 cobra the enemy cobra the enemy oh or you got to get him into something more you know classy

01:25:18.900 right you can get him into um johnny quest real adventures of johnny oh my gosh we we need to

01:25:25.280 find that that'll be so much better that's a much better opening theme song with the like it's got

01:25:30.580 a great opening scene i regularly listen to it it's like on my my song it's good that's my life

01:25:35.000 these days i'm hanging out with all these internet people and dodging motorcycles through canyons

01:25:40.360 you know all my all my anime girlfriends typical day typical days um is haji's in that right

01:25:51.280 Haji, yeah, Haji's in that.

01:25:52.580 Okay.

01:25:54.560 God.

01:25:56.700 Oh, yeah.

01:25:59.200 Is Haji Sikh or just generically Indian?

01:26:03.180 I'm going to ask because I don't think he's Sikh.

01:26:05.900 I think he's generically Indian.

01:26:09.520 Haji from Johnny Quest.

01:26:13.160 Indian or Sikh?

01:26:15.520 It's Islamic.

01:26:16.860 He's Indian by nationality and Sikh by religious and cultural background.

01:26:20.340 that's who you seek yeah wow he's an orphan from india specifically found in calcutta who becomes

01:26:29.740 dr benton's quest adopted or oh yeah doctor dr benton quest's adopted son and johnny's adopted

01:26:35.540 brother oh oh yeah i forgot he wore a turban i i i memory hold his turban

01:26:41.660 Simone, what have you done?

01:26:44.660 Alright, I'll get started here.

01:26:46.140 Oh boy.

01:26:48.020 What?

01:26:50.700 What you doing in that?

01:27:02.420 Yeah.

Based Camp - September 10, 2026

Lindsey Clancy is Not the Problem; Women Are (We Did Not Want to Make this Episode)

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