00:09:03.340It reminds me that it's not so bad, it's not so bad
00:09:08.340Dear Donald, I voted you in. Why aren't you responding? Can you see me from your tower, man? I'm down here at the bottom. I sent a million tweets in autumn, and I'm sure you got them. The probably is a problem, cause your POTUS now is something. I know the Secret Service keeps disturbances from bothering. But anyways, fuck it, what's been up, man? How's your daughters? My girlfriend's pregnant, too. I'm about to be your father. If I have a daughter, guess what I'm gonna call her? I'll name her Melania.
00:09:32.420I saw the bullying the media did to her and Barron
00:14:16.260okay no because judas he everyone knows what juice is he normally represents he tends to
00:14:22.900think in terms of beef and ligatures and hooves and things like that so he's like 500 pounds of
00:14:29.920like what of sinew yeah he comes in with a lot of like sinew and gristle he's excited 500 pounds
00:14:37.500of feathers or 500 pounds of stones yeah which you know what he thinks i'm going to take the feathers
00:14:43.580because he knows i'm a bit of a bougie guy jokes and you i'm taking the stones because they're
00:14:49.500heavier but barry thank you buddy buddy king baz thanks a lot man do you think he knows that this
00:14:57.860qualifies him now as the peter teal of the canadian dissident sphere he is he is yeah we're gonna we're
00:15:04.440gonna have a big investor event and it's just gonna be people trying to court barry's money
00:15:08.640and and he loves it he's in the room he's just
00:15:13.320because that's what you do when you have money it's everyone's like he's never going to give it
00:15:18.660unless he's really impressed so you know i don't know how many people do this i heard that's what
00:15:22.920peter teal does and we're no friends of peter teal of the show but i would imagine that at this stage
00:15:27.820in the game you just show up to parties and people give you stuff like if if i was a gay man
00:15:33.120then if you go to these parties and there's just a room full of holes right but how many people
00:15:40.280just try to do uh like card tricks or um like impressive like they try to juggle for him or
00:15:47.520like check this out pete i can do a uh three backflips i would love that yeah i would love
00:15:53.060that everyone's like oh do you want some cocaine you want some fucking pills i'm like no i i want
00:15:56.920skills i want a talent show yeah can you stand on your fingers let's see can you draw
00:16:04.040i'm a pretty good drawer yeah see that's how i do my pitches when i'm that's that's
00:16:09.960fucking blood solid shark tank it's like you dry hands this this
00:16:14.120nigga draws hands is the hardest part you can't no one can do hands
00:16:18.840fucking uh yin mentioned again garfi baby
00:16:25.540wouldn't be a network so yeah we got him uh his uh comment here was treat the family to some
00:16:35.820whiskey and cigars it'd be great if i took the money and didn't read his comments
00:16:40.160um yeah so we got some other comments getting to here uh morning gentlemen and ladies we0.97
00:16:49.500a lot of people don't know this but we got around 30 percent listenership of women for the show which
00:16:56.120is shockingly high surreal based on the analytics i can get from spotify could just be because a
00:17:02.800lot of right wingers are uh gay they're they're gay and they're girls and they're trans i know i
00:17:07.840was thinking the same thing but um uh spotify when you have if you have the free account yeah
00:17:14.360they don't do this with a paid account but they do the penis inspection you gotta do that right
00:17:19.380right right right they won't you let you listen to the franz ferdinand yeah unless you're you're
00:17:24.200not just gonna let anybody in yeah and it's hard to do because you know if you're taking the
00:17:28.900passport photo or done it through like the government canada you gotta align your face
00:17:32.680perfectly you know i mean like it's hard just to angle it right um by the way can you hear me
00:17:38.780yeah yeah okay good sorry it gave me a notice that someone's fucked up so i'm talking about
00:17:43.460uh angling holes because what i was going to say was that you know with women it's a mess down1.00
00:17:48.500there we've been taught by pornography that the average vagina it's just the up and the down1.00
00:17:57.620you know what i mean but realistically if you've been around um if you're not plugged in
00:18:04.760to the zionist pornography complex and you see what we real women are like not just idealized1.00
00:18:12.340bullshit they're sideways they're crooked they're zigzag they're topsy-turvy you know i mean you
00:18:18.640look down there you don't know where you're going to get it's a triangle it's fucked yeah you do i
00:18:25.360mean they don't teach this stuff at school you know like what are you what are you supposed to
00:18:29.100even do when you when you meet it in reality you give it give it the glad hand give the firm handshake
00:18:36.420that's what we're talking about this in the chat earlier and i forget what caused this but i ended
00:18:43.140up i think you know i'm spiritually a boomer but we were talking about i think it's like meeting
00:18:48.460girls or something and i would see like all these tweets about oh no you know what it was
00:18:53.240um there's someone saying you know here where do we meet girls we'll go to church that's where you
00:18:58.560meet girls if you're a young man you must go to church to meet them yeah and then people are
00:19:02.920reporting back saying that uh there's no single women in my church because really that that sounds
00:19:09.220like someone who's never been to church or maybe they go to a cool one i don't know but when you
00:19:14.340go to mine there's not a lot of actually there are now that i think about it yeah only only on
00:19:19.120holidays um john john or somebody else had said like if if your church does have a lot of hot
00:19:25.860young chicks it's probably not a church you want to go to for spiritual reasons which i kind of
00:19:31.620agree with like i i i had i i think i probably have told you this before but like i was getting
00:19:37.100laid a lot more in church than at school as a teenager like that's where the not just the girls
00:19:42.960were but where the loose girls were was in church which is part of the reason i didn't which part of
00:19:46.640the reason i left the church because it's like i people are hypocrites i don't feel that way
00:19:49.880anymore but that's how i felt when i was like 19 it's like i've slept with all your daughters
00:19:52.780fuck really jesus christ i didn't even know this deep lore about you i didn't know you were slaying1.00
00:19:59.220a dick up and down the pews you were you were a lot of the girls that that i'm not gonna name
00:20:03.880some of the guys that were in our some of the girls some of the guys you remember those you
00:20:08.540remember those girls that came by a lot of those girls were my friends from church that ended up
00:20:12.100just sleeping around with our guys in the flat so like this is yeah see it's weird when you tell
00:20:19.420me this because this is my life too i was involved in this i'm hearing it as a spectator man you used
00:20:24.720to be so cool damn what happened to me what happened what happened to us that's we're going
00:20:29.920to talk about this episode we're going to get into an older episode of the show but before we get to
00:20:35.900that i i felt it um relevant to bring up some uh what we're talking about from last episode let me
00:20:45.040just pull up the screen here so with israel and iran we're not going to make a whole meal out of
00:20:51.700this but i remember last episode we're saying you know iran's not going to do anything right
00:20:56.660you know they're they've made gained a reputation of being able to be fucked with then it turns out
00:21:02.360they're throwing missiles yeah like it's some kind of thing to do this is what i was because
00:21:07.360we're talking about what had happened back in the spring and i said everybody wants to say iran never
00:21:10.940does anything until they do and then when they do then suddenly iran is this horrible genocidal
00:21:16.160bully and the minute they stop throwing missiles it's gonna be oh iran why are you hitting yourself
00:21:20.680oh how come iran's such a pussy he never fights back but i i need to go on the record and say
00:21:26.280i was incorrect about iran i expected something but the thing they did was fairly impressive
00:21:33.580and it's god yeah chef's kiss um however just to explain my thinking in the back of my mind
00:21:40.720i've always got the samson option which they've never officially i mean too but they've never
00:21:46.800officially admitted they have nuclear weapons but everyone knows they have them secret and also
00:21:52.140they're one of the few countries that has not signed uh nuclear disarmament and deterrent there's
00:21:58.220like an official group from the un that says will you will you pledge to try and reduce nukes and
00:22:04.940like israel's like the only one that said no so it's like they just they want of course they
00:22:10.140fucking have news and then the samson option for those who don't know is uh last ditch effort if
00:22:15.980If Israel feels that it's truly facing annihilation, it will just start throwing nukes in every direction, basically destroy the world.
00:22:27.600And that's supposed to be a known secret.
00:22:30.700It's kind of a known thing, even though it's not announced, which is to say, don't fuck with us because we'll take the rest of you down with us, which does sound like a very Jewish thing to do.
00:22:40.100i gotta say though somebody leaked or look who knows if it was real but a document was
00:22:44.540being passed around that purported to show the destinations of for those icbms where they can
00:22:51.680reach too yeah yeah well that's well their reach on again nobody it's an open secret that they have
00:22:56.740them no really knows exactly what they have but we think their reach is all the way into north
00:23:01.040america they really only place they can't hit is really australia and south america but they um
00:23:06.380most of their targets are in africa in the middle east and europe they have a couple of targets in
00:23:12.100the u.s no targets in canada um like they're gonna hit beijing cool new delhi awesome awesome
00:23:20.340most of europe i mean i could go either way i hate to say it are we zionist now i'm not zion but no
00:23:25.900the point is we really should squeeze israel and make them do it it would be great this is a no
00:23:32.860lose scenario for us for ontarians they're not gonna they're gonna forget we're there
00:23:40.880and say oh it's gonna hit canada but it's only gonna hit bc weird but okay it's gonna spare
00:23:48.340ontario and and like 300 years of nuclear winter is just the price we pay for a jew free earth
00:23:54.340that's all right a lot of people forget when they let me say nuclear winter right you imagine
00:24:00.340you know a cyber rose video or something but i feel like i'm living in a nuclear winter now
00:24:06.500and i think i'm like emotionally or what i just things things suck i don't know if things can
00:24:14.700suck more is what i'm saying so if i just saw tanks covered in skulls rolling down the street
00:24:19.780i don't know if that would affect me emotionally yeah you know what i mean that'd be like a nice
00:24:24.860day out if you saw skull tanks i'm too old to shed a single tear over anything which isn't to say i
00:24:31.220wouldn't shed tears but i wouldn't shed a single tear like the yeah you know evocative tear that
00:24:37.160at the state of the world you know i'll cry if you know i lick a ice cream cone too hard and it
00:24:43.820falls on the ground i'm fucking human i'm not i'm not a fucking african okay it's a fucking
00:24:51.220but as a white man you should you should control yourself of course you know you're like we get
00:24:58.500too excited about an ice cream cone as a man you're allowed that you're allowed an ice cream
00:25:03.840cone especially these are the golden eras when you can really appreciate the flavor of vanilla
00:25:08.000that's lost on a child they don't get vanilla you get vanilla later in life you say wow chocolate's
00:25:14.500been a scam this whole time chocolate's fake it's fucking fraudulent chocolate ice cream yeah yeah
00:32:26.720The targeting on X is really good if you want to promote, because you can target based on geography and interests and stuff, or you can target based on lookalike audiences, which is rare.
00:32:39.020You can do that in Google and elsewhere, but you can only target people who look like the followers of whatever account you put in.
00:32:47.040So if you just want to get, like, Tucker Carlson fans, you just tag Tucker Carlson, yeah, send this tweet to people who follow him.
00:32:56.720it's it's that easy it's that funny so you can just you can with people i haven't seen it done
00:33:03.360really um because i guess it costs money but it's really intuitive the way you can do that
00:33:08.960all right nice so uh they don't want dimes to spread the word uh bamf isn't that the park that0.52
00:33:15.440was on fire by some stupid women was that what happened there's been a few fires we're gonna go
00:33:21.440with that yeah bill wilson of course says everything dime says is gay you know i'm gonna
00:33:29.040let it slide i'm gonna one could say i'm gay for pay because i'm in a good mood because i'm getting
00:33:35.040paid so i'll laugh and mark also sent you 20 bucks our own our very own mark love you guys
00:55:31.940I immediately agree with what he said.
00:55:33.820I think the thing is about the Challenger
00:55:36.060disaster being a hoax and that the astronauts are actually still alive and that it was a way to like
00:55:40.880to land the the program to end the program makes does actually make sense it wouldn't surprise me
00:55:47.740birds were involved but it was some kind of environmentalist thing like we need to we can't
00:55:52.000let people know how important these birds are yeah have you ever just looked at a bird too
00:55:57.840birds are fucked up man can i ask you this when's the last time you've seen a bird well i'm out in
00:56:03.060the greenhouse constantly i'm always dealing with birds i got birds in there i'm fucking
00:56:06.420dude birds are the enemy where's your stance on birds give me birds birds are birds are wild dude
00:56:13.960even domesticated birds are wild in their own way i got a chicken dying right now i could put some
00:56:19.080diatomaceous earth and some apple cider vinegar in her there and she's she's looking at me her
00:56:23.740comb is all bent over it's sad to see but at the end of the day you're a fucking creature dude so
00:56:28.380you're putting the vinegar the apple cider vinegar into the chickens well you gotta put it in the
00:56:32.120water and that helps them clear out the whatever they got and then the diatomaceous earth is for
00:56:37.500the parasites and mites and shit it made it sound like you're injecting it like one would a brisket
00:56:42.020no no you just you just rubber with the with the dust and you pour the cider in the water1.00
00:56:47.540sorry bubble's persona girls can't even decide anymore what type of jeans to wear a season a1.00
00:56:52.780season i've noticed that women have gone bonkers with jeans have you have you been out in the world1.00
00:56:58.840they're wearing jinko jeans now they're massive i've seen something like that yeah like straight1.00
00:57:06.060essentially i haven't seen like full-on jinko but i've seen a lot of women wearing like straight0.99
00:57:09.820like jeans like they're the same diameter at the ankle as they are at the ass which is bizarre i
00:57:16.140mean it wasn't bizarre in like 1996 but now it's a little weird i don't think women have been as
00:57:22.080out of pocket as they've been right now at any point in history1.00
00:57:25.360say that just totally cut you off just fucking got judas um getting some new fans we're listening
00:57:38.780for six months working our way to the backlog a lot of people have been saying that um we're
00:57:44.140going to do it for the patreon it sucks we'll do it um there's one really interesting comment
00:57:50.820i saw here did i pass by it i hope yeah so i liked this one this was an interesting one
00:57:57.420in our niche sphere of content goblins who is most likely to be remembered in 100 years
00:58:04.260i'd be curious what you would say about that salmon fish who salmon fish king salmon fish
00:58:10.980king salmon fish yeah look he's not taking the question seriously guys he hasn't thought i got
00:58:16.220i'm stalling because i can't um okay it's actually you're trying to king make when you
00:58:20.400say something like that i don't actually know off the top of my head can i can i say my immediate
00:58:24.000reaction can i be honest with you my immediate reaction is nobody in our whole sphere will be
00:58:28.760remembered and nobody in any other sphere will be remembered because none of us in the social
00:58:33.260media space are consequential enough for our voices to make it through the cataclysm that
00:58:38.400the next 50 years is going to be so so the the star of this story is the cataclysm the cataclysm
00:58:45.100is what people are going to remember yeah yeah i just i don't want to overthink the question
00:58:53.280but just because it's an interesting question right and i people can put their suggestions
00:58:59.460in the chat here i'd love to hear what people say um but off the top of my head it depends
00:59:04.660depends what you mean by niche fear of content goblins is it just our space how far does that
00:59:11.080border go out there's some people i'm going to say that i'm sure people will find surprising
00:59:17.300um like does nick land count as our sphere um whether or not you like like nick land i think
00:59:25.560there's a case we made that nick land will be spoken of in 100 years in philosophy circles
00:59:31.880um but make like not off the tip of your tongue it's not going to be like shakespeare
00:59:36.520but it depends what you might know like will be known in academia versus in the popular culture
00:59:43.400like it's not gonna be elvis but then you say okay if it's on nick land what does sam hyde count
00:59:50.460i think there's a strong case we made that sam hyde might again maybe not the biggest name but
00:59:56.900if you're looking back on a hundred years ago in popular media like here's one thing about
01:00:05.380sam hi that's interesting is that he doesn't really control his own memes he's not a meme
01:00:10.300guy and he's very sparing about what interviews he does he doesn't do interviews but that whole
01:00:15.220he can't keep getting away with it or superimposing his face on someone who just did a terrorist act
01:00:21.660that has a life of its own that's a true meme and by meme i mean like an idea that propagates as if
01:00:28.480it's an organism that that's become almost bigger than him so i think if you're looking back textbook
01:00:34.520memetics in a hundred years actually the the he can't keep getting away with it it's probably
01:00:39.080that and uh and pepe are are really at the top i think yeah like no matter what you think
01:00:44.500no matter what you think with sam hi if you like his content you don't like his content
01:00:48.040maybe you think the latest episode of extreme peace relies a bit too much on game shows which
01:00:54.480is a incredibly antiquated framing device get into it but you might think that i'm not saying
01:01:00.340that's what i might say that you might think that that would be like doing an infomercial skit
01:01:05.380like what that that's not relevant that's not interesting what the fuck you're discussing it
01:01:09.080i'm i'm not saying that i'm saying someone might say that but i'm not but i must say it's very
01:01:14.940funny it's very good but uh kind of um sort of but it's it's good but right but he but does he
01:01:24.460count is he in our space i can give you a name of someone i think might get there and you're not
01:01:31.000going to like it curtis yarvin well he's not in our space i agree with you interesting i agree
01:01:38.980with you but he's not in our space he's if anything he's he's nrx but i don't think we're
01:01:44.080like we're really only 10 here's the thing we would be defined in the same sphere as him by
01:01:48.940people who hate us but in our sphere we share very very little with him especially now that
01:01:54.740he's a darling of the establishment so i also think that curtis yarvin what he's known for
01:02:00.120is you know getting on these shows and he's pitching monarchy he's talking tech i find his
01:02:06.760erbit stuff the most interesting i'm i'm not on erbit but when i hear erbit guys talk about it
01:02:12.560it's just incomprehensible enough that it gets me curious but uh he hasn't broken his idea yet
01:02:22.140thus far he's really discussing older ideas and history there's not one fascinating novel thing
01:02:30.140that he's cracked open that he owns and i think you need that and he might very well get there
01:02:34.680and i don't care if you like curtis yarvin or not that's immaterial maybe it's alexander dugan
01:02:40.700like is your space not really but like debatable actually um just off the top of my head bronze
01:02:47.740age pervert i say no but someone that he's inspired yes he's literally who as in to me
01:02:56.460bronze is pervert some people push back unless he's popular yes he's popular yes he's sold he's
01:03:01.980more he's more popular than a lot of people but here's the thing there's actually and i understand
01:03:08.140why people will find this drama baiting but um i've read a fair amount of his stuff there's not
01:03:14.300a single original idea not a single original idea that he's had his name too if you read his
01:03:20.220non-fiction articles he's very good at taking a very basic reductive idea and spending 6 000 words
01:03:29.180building on it and citing history but if you if you strip all that away that stuff that's just
01:03:35.180supposed to impress you like fireworks there's there's not a single interesting idea he's
01:03:39.660ever come up with and i've read his we covered his thesis on the show so he's a bad writer
01:03:44.780he's not an intelligent person and he's not actually popular it's astroturf it's completely
01:03:49.500here's the thing i think someone he inspired could because the the memetic value of because
01:03:56.700you gotta realize i'm looking at this completely unemotionally and a lot of the people we would
01:04:01.580call great are only made great by their followers oftentimes by their followers aren't great though
01:04:08.140that followers suck and are by definition weak shitty people who can achieve nothing but here's
01:04:13.180like they they're pretty good they might very well carry this on in some other way but we i don't know
01:04:17.900that i can't control that that's hard to forecast i've never i've never met a or heard from a bat
01:04:22.780follower who was like halfway toward becoming an actual person like it's like saying what's
01:04:30.140what's the fucking the the half nigger you know child abusing whoremonger from romania i can't
01:04:36.560remember his name the uh the sunglasses you're gonna have to be a bit more specific there's so
01:04:42.260many of them but there's he's like a pua guy all these they're all the fucking same dracula
01:04:46.820dracula it was fucking track oh no you're talking about andrew tate andrew tate thank you andrew
01:04:53.700tate because you could say this and like yeah but andrew tate's guys really love him and they
01:04:57.140carry it for like well yeah but you can say the same thing about andrew tate is he popular i mean
01:05:00.880it's he's promoted he's paid for promotion so is he is he genuinely popular with people that
01:05:05.560matter no he's popular with a bunch of people who are weak and pathetic and you know they're driven
01:05:10.580by some odd psychotic bullshit like i don't i don't see his here's the thing when andrew tate
01:05:16.620goes away there's going to be another andrew tate that's a role that gets filled every few years
01:05:22.760by a new like alpha male sometimes they're being ironic sometimes they're not but it's because
01:05:28.740they're just recycling the same old shit that's what i'm saying they're saying the same thing
01:05:32.320about bap because bap is just recycling other people's shit from between 20 and 50 years ago
01:05:37.620he's just doing it on a long longer period and he's doing it with different material yeah it's
01:05:42.500the same garbage there's going to be another bap in 20 years and he's probably going to be gay and
01:05:46.820jewish just like yeah but that's what i sound like even if you like bap even if you don't like
01:05:51.200i'm saying i don't think it's interesting enough to matter i think curtis yarvin could someone
01:05:57.080wrote here sargon i honestly i know we're probably joking but that like sargon's popular i'm like i
01:06:04.260don't think so honestly i don't think he's i like him fine enough but i don't think i think you
01:06:11.060actually need to be crazier i think you need to be more extreme uh to be remarkable i think you
01:06:16.000need to upset the status quo more and this would be what i would say about bap as well is that if
01:06:22.840you actually listen to what he says i made a comment the other day where i'm like all these
01:06:26.580vitalist guys i'm like if you were really followers of his philosophy you would rape kill and devour
01:06:32.520him but you're not or bap would be advocating more for violence or something but he's not
01:06:37.300same thing with sargon i'm like i think if you want to be more remarkable in the annals of
01:06:42.820political activism i think you need to be a bit more extreme you need to move the needle
01:06:47.320and i don't think that's in his dna he's i think he's a nice guy he's probably he's a very smart
01:06:52.620guy he's a talented guy but i'm like i don't i don't think you have real political agitation
01:06:56.500contrast that against someone like martin selner maybe i could see it dude selner selner's real
01:07:03.400like selner is in the field acting right yeah like even mishima who i also hate for being a weird
01:07:08.840gay non at least killed himself but back won't even kill himself he just goes to thailand to
01:07:15.300fuck ladyboys like he's not even doing anything he's just writing sub stack and he's going to
01:07:20.380asia to to fuck teenagers yeah so um depending on how certain rumors shake out maybe jf careppy
01:07:31.100jf careppy could be king man you know what part of this is yeah we didn't mention this
01:07:38.220When you're saying in 100 years, there's an assumption that we're all agreeing on what the 100 years looks like and what people in 100 years are thinking about and reading.
01:07:46.220So if you think that the world follows a certain type of path, JF Grepe could be king.
01:07:51.660And if you think the world, and I was going to say, actually, legitimately, if we win, I'm talking about Canadian nationalists, if we win, if we succeed in rebuilding our nation, I think what John Carter has been writing, people will remember.
01:08:04.640not because it's okay yeah someone said john carter yeah a couple guys have but it's very
01:08:09.700specific it's very specific to what's going on in canada and i'm not saying it's like look i don't
01:08:15.900want to piss on john i love i love john i love john's writing um i just think that what the type
01:08:20.480of thing that he's been doing strikes me as when i've been reading about commentators from 100
01:08:24.900years ago they strike me as john carter type guys like they're taken seriously but they're saying
01:08:30.200something they're saying something which is on the edges of radical but still but but also
01:08:37.100enough that it can be accepted you raise a good point there it's it's of its time and this is
01:08:41.560something i've been guilty of in the past of many others you start thinking i want to write something
01:08:46.200that's timeless i want to write something that's evergreen that doesn't really matter because we've
01:08:51.020read great books on this show like even to maestra and others that they're speaking in references
01:08:56.880of that era and they're not afraid of it are autobiographies which are totally you know so
01:09:03.060you're like oh i'm writing this so it can be applicable across time like that's impossible
01:09:07.440it's more effective and probably more useful if you try you know when people write about the
01:09:14.720discourse or talk about internet stuff like well that is relevant to this era if someone's looking
01:09:19.940back in 100 years they probably would appreciate that snapshot in time so don't run away from that
01:09:26.000I think and I think that's what John Carr does um so someone uh Jonathan uh Jonathan Bowden yeah
01:09:32.440um if I that would be my choice I would like that to be the case we'd said in a previous episode
01:09:38.980you know if we had any sort of money to influence we would be funding statues of Bowden be erected
01:09:44.620um you know I think is and there's other people who've been releasing I think uh
01:09:49.600Counter Currents releases books on his speeches and whatnot so there's his stuff is out there
01:09:55.200But I think that was a tragic loss of a rare talent of an orator.
01:10:02.800And so, yeah, like, you know, you're not going to find a lot of people, I think, who dislike Bowden.
01:28:25.360You were living in Hong Kong at the time.
01:28:27.680You have a whole era of Jews living in Hong Kong, attending these street protests, the birth of your child, the birth of your children, and the birth of my children.
01:28:38.320You've got huge chunks of our lives documented in this show.
01:28:43.300and you see how our how we kind of evolve our takes and then really all the stuff that stays
01:28:48.560the same and you can kind of see these breaking points where i think we get not blackpilled but
01:28:54.940more radical so like the the dna of us doesn't change but the you know it's amplified if that
01:29:02.660makes any sense yeah what do you think about that yeah no absolutely oh bill wilson of course
01:29:08.260same dimes is jagging on thank you just one more do your rapids never been the same so they got
01:29:15.200developed down south of rapeville okay this is again jot that down i i can see the shape of a
01:29:20.960good sketch in here egg in his like mind like we're trying so hard to like sink all this up
01:29:28.020by the way um we used to have the jazz in the background and i had this other sound that i
01:29:35.220would take entire other podcasts i would warp them i would slow them down chop it and screw it
01:29:41.940and lay that over top in post-production and i thought that was cool i thought i was being
01:29:47.180really trippy and then i just got one email once it was like so why do you have the sound of a
01:29:53.200bunch of fucking hogs in the background i said i'm not doing this anymore i thought people were
01:30:02.160appreciating how cool and interesting i was being like what hey why do you got stupid fucking bar
01:30:08.020noises your sound floor has got hog shit and grease on it i've got the story of the sound
01:30:14.200floor has ebbed and flowed throughout the history of this show i've gotten i used to get so many
01:30:19.720emails and comments saying get rid of it and then for a period i would and then i started getting
01:30:26.760messages saying people missed it and they were equal like i didn't know which one to listen to
01:30:31.680and then i just said i'm gonna live in my truth what you want and i just do it and i like it and
01:30:37.260now everyone has just shut up about everyone has is tolerated for what it's worth uh here we go
01:30:46.920it's hard to tell if you're the one talking in the background or if it's just the show
01:30:56.180fascia like a membrane between the lobes of your brain that allows them to communicate
02:33:03.920I was like subtweeting him one day and I said, you know, blankety blank happens, then I'll convert to Catholicism.
02:33:09.600catholicism and then it happened and he responded to me and said you have to you have to convert now
02:33:14.280and i was like well that's like you know that's awfully fucking medieval i think i just got
02:33:20.960forcibly converted to papers there's been worse conversion stories than losing a bed right but
02:33:26.260it's you know it's directly to the house of habsburg it's one of those things but you know
02:33:30.320it doesn't really change it doesn't i'm in this sort of religious space that where you could
02:33:35.660really put any word on it you want to the the operative word for me religiously is american
02:33:40.960and so that's that's how i described you because i would say he is truly of the american identity
02:33:49.020and purely of the american context i don't think that that could be divorced from protestantism
02:33:54.480i don't think yeah no so here's here's a way that i'm able to here's a way that i'm able to sort of
02:34:00.620of excuse my catholicism at this point whereas i can make an argument that the most first it
02:34:08.040hinges on this idea of protestantism protestantism it's a protest okay right you're protesting
02:34:12.660something okay um if you get the most powerful country in the world you know and you get them
02:34:21.560to all start converting veterans it's a generally protestant country you get them to start protesting
02:34:25.560you get them to start getting involved you know the converting catholicism and get them involved
02:34:30.240You've actually somehow managed to turn American Catholicism into the bodily weapon that Protestantism is hurling at the gates of Rome itself, whereas what we're going to do is we're going to all convert to Catholicism, but we're going to take our preconceived Protestant attitudes with us, and we're actually going to turn the Church of Rome Protestant by just sheer money and numbers.
02:34:57.400and I think that's what's happening right now
02:34:59.260so right now I think the most Protestant thing
02:54:39.820He grew up on the Palatine Hill, and his family's villa was within sight of the ruins of Pompey's amphitheater.
02:54:48.600So he grows up as a Roman aristocrat in this ruined city, looking at the grandeur that was Rome.
02:54:56.620And he does, he sort of looks around him and realizes there's no one taking care of Italy, the Italian kind.
02:55:04.880So he establishes, does something that hadn't ever really been done before.
02:55:08.660He starts to establish the church as a temporal power.
02:55:10.800He says the church is the only institution here that can actually restore order, keep the roads open, so on and so forth.
02:55:17.600So this is really the birth of Catholicism in a lot of ways, is this idea that the church is not just going to be this abstract power that is backed up by Roman imperial authority.
02:55:30.280It's going to have to be its own thing.
02:55:31.820And so it's initially this concept that is the papacy, its ability to project its own power, and by its own power, I mean Roman orthodoxy, what Roman Catholicism looked like at the city of Rome, it is initially very limited.
02:55:46.580It is really initially limited for the first few hundred years to the Rome and the region of Lazio in Italy and whoever the aristocrats of Rome were making good deals with.
02:55:57.140Beyond that, in the back country, in France, in Britain, in Galicia, in all of the places that have nominally converted to Christianity in the Western Empire, there is no method for data exchange.
02:56:12.820There's no method for data material exchange.
02:56:14.800So, like, if the Pope decides, you know, the Pope today writes an encyclical and he hits send and it goes to every Catholic in the world.
02:56:20.680Back then, if the Pope wanted to levy a tax, he had to go negotiate with different bishops in the different Italian city-states that are 20 miles away.
02:56:35.320You know, he does not have the absolute authority.
02:56:37.900He has the nominal temporal spiritual authority, but his spiritual authority exists in tension with this sort of temporal authority that he has.
02:56:48.520And the temporal authority is important enough that he can't risk too much on the spiritual authority.
02:56:53.580So he has to let for hundreds of years, more or less, he has to let Britain in particular and France and Spain and all of these other places.
02:57:03.640Because he just had, Ireland in particular, Ireland has this whole thing called, because they never repaganized, they have this whole thing called the Age of Legends, where there's essentially church rule in Ireland, entirely independent.
02:57:16.900They pay nominal dues to the Pope, but the Pope and the Roman Church don't really have anything to do with what's going on, and this is really what we call the Dark Age.
02:57:27.200And it was a real dark age in the sense of this, but this dark age kind of allows for all of these very strange regional Christianities to bloom and prosper.
02:57:38.400And the Germanic peoples tended to bend Christianity into their existing system.
02:57:57.200Okay, Mediterranean peoples, as we all know, some of our favorite East Mediterranean peoples, don't have any problem with lying.
02:58:06.120Truth is not a necessarily highly valued, you know, you go back to what the, actually the Greek word aristo comes from an even older word that means truth tower.
02:58:16.560So the Greeks, what aristocrat actually means in its original context is that Greeks only expected truth from a very small percentage of their population.
02:58:25.880that was it this is the only ones that have to tell the truth this is they're going to be and
02:58:29.900they're going to get a special they're going to get a special like position in society germans
02:58:35.840didn't think that way they're very frank they're very forthright they're they're an honor culture
02:58:39.280you know so like personal honor matters to them and we see christianity see the christianity and
02:58:45.180the government the governing system around which they build this it incorporates a lot of these
02:58:50.800very personal person-to-person pagan elements like the concept of a self an individual self's
02:58:56.800integrity gets woven directly into the way their christianity functions as a government and as
02:59:04.520these as these sort of you know as the papacy's particularly in the texts in the from the 11th
02:59:09.760to the 13th century is the papacy's ability to start projecting power outside of italy they
02:59:15.480start coming into contact with uh into conflict with these english kings like um um henry the
02:59:22.920second is probably the most famous one the the ecclesiastical the what is the ecclesiastical
02:59:28.220court versus what is the king's law these germanized pagan these paganized germanized
02:59:34.780christianities that have grown up along the realm where the where the papacy couldn't where
02:59:40.140mediterranean christianity couldn't project any power they start coming into conflict with one
02:59:44.540other and this is one of the big feedback loops that creates the actual the process and reformation
02:59:49.260and this is a huge thing this material when christianity flips over and decides it's going
02:59:54.940to be a temporal power and not just this floating abstract concept then it becomes limited the
03:00:01.020pope's ability suddenly becomes the one limited to claim authority and he has to slowly expand
03:00:07.020there's another really um another really good book on this too that i've been scouring and uh
03:00:12.060and taking notes on but it's actually called the saxon savior the germanic transformation of the
03:00:17.420gospel in the ninth century helion and this is by um father g ronald murphy from the society of jesus
03:00:25.420or sj better known as the jesuits by the way oh okay interesting yeah um so what he does here is
03:00:35.820he breaks down the conversion of the saxons and he starts off the book and in the first few pages
03:00:42.700he talks about how they sent boniface who had uh failed to sufficiently convert the celtic tribes
03:00:52.300in the islet of britain um he was very dissatisfied with the way they went about it he he personally
03:00:57.740thought that they were a little bit too accommodating so he tried he tried the reverse uh
03:01:02.700uh in in continental germany and this culminated in the chopping down of of the uh the ermenzul
03:01:09.800which is kind of an effigy of the world tree yes and this did not have the intended consequence
03:01:15.820um you know in our circles this is often touted as a dunk by many of the christians but what
03:01:22.440actually happened here as as father murphy talks about is the spark the 33 year war between the
03:01:28.940the Saxons and the Franks. And it led to an unnecessary death of thousands of Franks and
03:01:32.900Saxons on both sides because it just caused resentment throughout the entire Germanic world
03:01:38.960all the way up to Scandinavia. And what you see with the Germanic tribes is they would have this,
03:01:44.840they have this habit where they would lose in battle and then they would convert to Christianity
03:01:51.000and then they would turn their swords into plowshares and then they'd go home. And then
03:01:55.680two years later they would revolt again and they would just do this 10 or 12 times repeatedly
03:02:01.420forever um rejecting the authority of of the franks rejecting the authority of the church
03:02:07.380uh and so this very and what's ironic is that this very forceful method of chopping down the
03:02:12.940ermazool is a very germanic thing to do it's a very so like even even the franks in their desire
03:02:20.080to convert their their fellow saxons their fellow germanic tribes result to this very pagan sort of
03:02:25.520brute force very tribal pagan brute force to try and convert their brethren um and it just it
03:02:30.960completely backfires until an unknown author in the ninth century uh and to this day nobody knows
03:02:38.840who it was or who he was or where he worked writes the saxon helion or the saxon gospel
03:02:44.420and the saxon gospel reinterprets the story of the gospel in terms and in references that the
03:02:52.000germanic tribes can understand so instead of rome being a city they refer to it as a hill fort they
03:02:57.160call it rumeberg and uh they refer to jesus as droten i'm probably mispronouncing that because
03:03:04.240i don't speak old continental but they but they refer they refer to jesus as droten and jesus is
03:03:10.520not just jesus he's also a tribal war chief he's a king and his and his three followers are spearmen
03:03:17.320there's spearmen in his shield wall and judas is a fellow swordsman um and in this retelling
03:03:25.240jesus is effectively branded as this kind of warrior conqueror who personally slays death
03:03:30.440in combat and for whatever reason this worked uh it completely worked in the saxons within
03:03:37.960the next 50 years in the ninth century almost unanimously converted to christianity um and
03:03:44.760And again, this was all meant to be temporary.
03:03:46.840It was meant to be a sort of temporary process of accommodation.
03:03:51.780But once again, due to resource constraints and manpower constraints, they did not have the capacity to go full.
03:03:57.920And this lingers on into the 10th and 12th centuries.
03:04:02.900And mostly due to the influence of the Ottonian emperors, this sort of Germanized Christianity became normative throughout Western Europe.
03:04:09.900europe yes to the point to the point where it was so integrated that its foreignness to original
03:04:15.120christian doctrine was barely recognized and what's fascinating is that the universalist
03:04:19.540claims of christianity to the germanics was muted um the satoriological nature of early christianity
03:04:25.440was blunted they did not have an innate desire for salvation which is something that very few people
03:04:31.620recollect when it comes to the subject and the appeal had to shift it survived by spreading
03:04:39.060to become something closer to the germanic religious ideal look at the sacred kingship
03:04:43.900oh exactly dude the crusades the crusades are are are just uh the crusades are normans right like
03:04:50.760yeah the concept of a crusade is so thoroughly germanic it's insane okay the crusades are
03:04:55.740initially called by a norman pope okay this is a you know this is a norman who is this is a one of
03:05:01.060the this is this is a norman pope that is called these crusades this is this that they in specific
03:05:07.760god christianity is so malleable it's so able to work itself into whatever tradition but these
03:05:13.860people they have this tradition where you need you require honor to be able to and to be able
03:05:18.800to enter the kingdom of heaven you have to have done something worth doing so you have to go
03:05:22.920conquer you have to go conquer land for your warrior jesus king and that's that's right
03:05:27.420you know it's the normans in particular are fascinating because aside from the religion
03:05:34.620officially being christianity there's nothing really christian about them one of the most
03:05:38.500famous paintings um one of the most famous paintings of the normans is uh norman pirates
03:05:45.460in the 7th century and it's a photo it's sorry it's a painting of two normans bride napping a
03:05:50.160woman after a village raid bringing them back to the long ship right and it's just like you know
03:05:55.140these people they almost synthesize the the warrior spirit and the honor culture of the
03:06:00.620germanic tribes um with the pie with the profound piety of christianity and the normans just went
03:06:05.420around europe doing this for fun um in the time of william the bastard there were still lingering
03:06:10.560uh also true tribes i shouldn't say also true because that's more modern but there are still
03:06:15.800germanic pagan tribes in northern normandy um closest to the to the coasts um involved in the
03:06:22.960complex interplay between normandy and england and denmark um often serving as mercenaries right but
03:06:28.040normans just did this for fun they went across europe they took sicily they took southern italy
03:06:32.840um the very way southern italy was taken by the normans was because norman mercenaries betrayed
03:06:39.560the byzantine greeks who they were in service sorry the lombards who they were in service from
03:06:44.680after kicking the byzantine greeks out and then said you know what actually we're just going to
03:06:48.360keep this land they're like well why would you do this how could you do this to me like well if i
03:06:53.240if i can you know i want to show to throw to north to make sure that you haven't spoken on
03:06:56.840on this topic just yet what's your feeling on this entire that the premise that we're talking
03:07:01.000about here i i think there's a danger in and i'm not saying you guys are necessarily doing this
03:07:06.280but i think there is a danger in looking back and defining what behavior is exemplary of christian
03:07:15.960behavior in history because i think the standard that's often used as well this is actually just
03:07:21.800german behavior it's not christian behavior or this is actually you know the crusades for instance
03:07:26.540The Crusades, I've certainly heard the claim from some pagans that, well, the Crusades is obviously not Christian, it's fundamentally pagan because it's a warrior movement, when really their standard of what Christian is, is the sort of soft megachurch Christianity of the last 40 years.
03:07:46.840And that's taken as kind of representative of, you know, the correct or the proper understanding of Christianity.
03:07:55.060To me, it strikes me as a more modern lens, I guess, viewing back.
03:08:02.180I'm not saying, you know, I think the truth about something like the Crusades is maybe a bit of both in the sense that there is a Christian nature to it.
03:08:11.380There is also this much deeper sort of tribal nature as well.
03:08:16.840But I think the broader point being, I think we have to be careful when we look back at history and refer to something as, like, implying that anything involving war or conquest or warrior culture is inherently antithetical to Christianity just because what is popular contemporary Christianity would scowl upon it.
03:08:42.020well okay that's absolutely that's absolutely fair and like i would agree with you we're we're
03:08:46.860all as dimes pointed out in the in the early part of the stream we're all colored by our zeitgeist
03:08:51.440we're all colored by the rationalist sort of post-christian liberal uh mentality this very
03:08:57.080rationalist um you know hindsight is 2020 kind of view so i i would agree with that i would agree
03:09:03.760with that i think that's a fair thing to say i think i'm going to push back a little bit
03:09:06.780My actual point, my point here is more or less that that what is conceived of, especially as both Catholic, both Catholic and Protestant Christianities, Catholicism and Protestantism are both idealisms that don't really exist in this world.
03:09:24.520this is a world in which christianity is effervescent it's very malleable and there
03:09:31.020is virtually no top-down enforcement like the top-down enforcement the ability top-down
03:09:37.340enforcement ends at pisa up until the up until really the 12th century okay and then you have
03:09:43.800this you have the emergence of these things that are called really the emergence of these things
03:09:47.400that are called textual cults textual communities which is when the ability to just copy information
03:09:54.160documents and spread them far enough to make something like orthodoxy a possibility there is
03:10:01.800no possibility of orthodoxy from really the almost the crisis of the third century in rome
03:10:08.400all the way up to at least the carologenian renaissance and then it collapses again
03:10:13.360and doesn't start to re-emerge until the 12th century so all of these peoples and we have so
03:10:19.700little actual paper representation of what's going on here and we can't really trust what we've got
03:10:25.440you know they get even the documentation we have they get eclipses wrong and
03:10:29.980there's stuff wrong in their recording that renders us unable to really say anything except
03:10:36.960these people were left to their own devices they basically had they had these gospels we point out
03:10:42.400these saxon gospels they've got this story and again if you read the gospels the gospels themselves
03:12:42.240They're subject to this abstract higher power that we call Jesus, but we don't really understand that.
03:12:46.960What we do understand is the Samhain or whatever that's guarding the gravesite.
03:12:50.700Yeah, one thing that I noticed when I was reading Albion Seed, I'm not sure where people land on David Hackett Fisher anymore, but I thought that was a very...
03:16:21.400know if you understand what i'm saying like so like this this is this is the exact situation
03:16:27.800with the franks like for an entire 400 year period um christ even look at the excuse my language if
03:16:34.840you even look at um if you look at the frankish invasion of the province of gaul um before clovis
03:16:44.600even though they were all christian the franks engaged in these horrific fratricidal blood feuds
03:16:52.360um clovis absolutely destroyed all of his his brothers and cousins who were competing in
03:16:58.600australia which is what it was called for um geopolitical primacy and then this is before
03:17:04.840they pushed out the visigoths who were also christian but for this 400 year period um concubinage
03:17:11.160was tolerated among the frankish kings um this fratricidal blood feuds in very typical paganistic
03:17:18.200fashion uh you know there's nothing that they could do about it uh it took a very long time
03:17:23.080for a lot of those old folkways a lot of those old owner-bound conceptions to transform into something
03:17:29.240else the the transition period is very fascinating for me uh you also see things and and perhaps
03:17:35.880maybe north huger knows about this but you also see things like depictions of jesus wielding a
03:17:40.600spear um and and on tombstones on on art and it's on you know the the viewer is unsure whether this
03:17:49.240is supposed to be jesus or odin or woden i guess um because woden is also famously one-eyed and
03:17:55.480carries a spear um and the the symbol of germanic paganism being the thoris hammer or the mjolnir
03:18:02.360is also in the very vaguely in the shape of a cross so you see these you see these very interesting
03:18:07.160convergences culturally and of course i mentioned the burials before so you know the the british
03:18:12.400are the people that i know the most about i mean that's my background my my nom de plume is chris
03:18:19.420sandage and i invented it because it's the most english sounding name i could come up with but
03:18:24.720and this is to softly introduce the concept of canon formation as well because one of the early
03:18:29.000texts that i include in what i would call the english canon is a book called the it's called
03:18:32.760Asser's Life of Alfred. This is a text that was produced about Alfred the Great within the
03:18:40.000lifetime, within possibly Alfred was still alive when this book was produced, but it was certainly
03:18:45.220within the lifetime of somebody who could have known him. This character Asser writes this
03:18:49.920biography of him. It's fascinating. The first two chapters of this biography of him trace on one
03:18:57.340side his germanic pagan ancestry on the other side that traces his biblical ancestry back to
03:19:03.280adam and the joining figure is this figure called schiafa okay and like who's this figure schiafa
03:19:09.940like you know like go go go look for that one somewhere in the annals of the past but like you
03:19:15.400know like when you know even as you know these these figures that are because the only english
03:19:21.300king that's ever been given this moniker the great or whatever and he's like as his legend
03:19:24.880is being built as his like history is being written what we do is very consciously marry
03:19:30.880literally marry and fuck the the classical greco-roman christian tradition to the germanic
03:19:40.140pagan one and come up with this very physical synthesis of it like this is a synthesis of it
03:19:46.920that is happening consciously and it's sexual like it's like yeah it's like like yeah this
03:19:52.560this pagan father fucked this classical christian mother and the baby that came out of it was
03:19:57.600alfred you know yeah i mean go ahead i was just gonna say rousal actually um on the subject of
03:20:04.840alfred the great rousal tom rousal also known as survive the jive points out when it comes to
03:20:10.540alfred that he in very typical english fashion claimed descent from woden yes yeah 100 i mean
03:20:19.680the anglo-saxon chronicles have the genealogy of the kings and they all trace them back to woden
03:20:26.160they trace it back to a number of you know basically they have here's here's how we can
03:20:31.840show that every king and this was still uh something that the once they became christian
03:20:37.280like alfred the great they still this was still important to them that they had this descent from
03:20:43.040from woden um and more than that as well i mean you see this with story uh you hemorrhizes
03:20:51.440the history of the norse gods into the broader narrative of christianity i think
03:20:57.600when moderns in the west when we come at christianity and we look at the bible we look at
03:21:04.000this as like a separate history to the the histories of like the greeks or the germans
03:21:11.440Whereas, and you also see this as well, like with Saxo Grammaticus in The Just of the Norm, he also euhemorizes and lays out the history of Denmark.
03:21:20.760But what's really going on is for someone like Saxo or for someone like Snorri, they're kind of taking these pieces of the puzzle that you're getting from the Old Testament,
03:21:37.200that you're getting from their own mythology and deep history and stories and they're they're
03:21:43.300basically saying we're kind of reconstructing the history of the entire world now we're pulling these
03:21:48.280narrative threads together and we're also pulling in like where do the gods play into this and
03:21:54.340they're often like you hemorrhaged into great kings or they're they're referenced as coming
03:21:59.440from troy after the fall of troy um and coming up into the north but there is in that time there was
03:22:07.320a much greater understanding of here's where our nation fits in to this grand now christianized
03:22:15.820narrative of human history and that's something we don't have as much today it's like well there's
03:22:20.840the christian story and there's the the pagan story and like they're like we're gonna build
03:22:24.560the whole thing like we're gonna we're gonna create we're gonna understand the super story
03:22:28.880and where we fit in it's not like our history just starts once we become christianized it's
03:22:34.460like we've been around this whole time and here's how we play into this now there's a direction i'd
03:22:40.520like to take this into and i certainly want to discuss the nick land um western canon idea but
03:22:46.620i just want to give a bit of background on one of the reasons i was picking this topic because why
03:22:51.380why doesn't we want to talk about paganism and Christianity again,
03:22:55.180still as if we haven't done that enough.
03:28:47.560here this is these are not the problems i have with marshall he said he's he's he's on point
03:28:52.920right up here we're we're live we're in lockstep at this point and so one of the reasons just to
03:28:58.440continue the through line i had was that if we're talking about a synthesis let's keep using that
03:29:04.200word of christianity paganism which is sort of these the immersion of these cultures could
03:29:10.200something like that happen in the 21st century in a different way and i'll describe what i mean
03:29:15.400Because if we accept that, for better or worse, it seems that the people we're talking about, they tend to be Westerners, I don't really give a shit what Japanese Christians are up to.
03:29:25.780I got no idea what they're doing over there.
03:29:27.940But I think this is really what we're trying to get at with that whole beginning of the discussion was explain how Christianity, Catholic Church specifically, but also definitely Protestantism, has a distinct European character, a European-ness, despite the fact that it came from the East.
03:29:44.060how the fuck does that happen how does it and i think that's what everyone's responding to a lot
03:29:48.220of guys in our political milieu they're attracted to these grand cathedrals maybe not even due to
03:29:54.940spiritual reasons but they're attracted to some kind of distinct european-ness and how did that
03:29:59.980happen so point being just to move on from that because i think i think most people will probably
03:30:05.020agree with that if there is something like a synthesis that happens going forward is it can
03:30:12.940it be facilitated by the fact that it seems that both sides pagans and christians seem to be
03:30:18.520employing both these spiritualities for rational or political even reasons because i don't want to
03:30:26.360pay too broad of a brush but how many pagans like how many christians how many people convert to
03:30:30.940catholicism or eastern orthodoxy just because they want to have a war with gays how many people
03:30:37.000convert to paganism because they hate liberalism you know i mean like i don't know what the
03:30:41.500percentage is but it's a sizable amount not everyone but some so if there is a fusion could
03:30:46.700it actually be along political and cultural lines rather than spiritual lines i'm just going to come
03:30:52.380out and say that i i already think that this synthesis is happening um if you and i've
03:30:57.580commented on this before if you look at like there's no difference between leftist christians
03:31:03.060and leftist pagans in their worldview there's absolutely no difference they both worship this
03:31:07.660almost gnostic secular cult of the supreme being or cult of reason whose name is equity
03:31:15.500um if you go to the reddit norse paganism and then you look at what many of these christian
03:31:20.880ngos are doing they have fundamentally the same worldview they may be using these separate
03:31:26.420traditions as a skin suit but if you if you take away that packaging you very quickly see that
03:31:32.560their worldview is entire almost entirely the same they're just justifying it through these
03:31:36.940different uh through these different traditions and conversely it's not a coincidence that all
03:31:43.280of us are having this discussion right now and we're all a hodgepodge of right-wing christians
03:31:48.240and pagans um who agree with 95 of the same things you know perhaps maybe there's a doctrinal or an
03:31:55.260aesthetic difference uh but or in some cases cultural differences uh but uh you're seeing
03:32:01.500this convergence for a reason uh and also another example of this i think just to give him some
03:32:07.020credit or you know criticism depending where you're standing this is the apolloism project
03:32:12.880that richard spencer and mark bromine are engaged and i'm not a huge fan of it but
03:32:17.260you can tell that that's their attempt to basically create a new religion or create a new
03:32:22.300cult but it's through a ethno-political understanding of it like i i would i think
03:32:29.000they would agree that they don't worship apollo i don't even think they have the the processes in
03:32:35.540their mind to actually worship apollo i'm i'm very skeptical of any so-called cult or religious
03:32:42.100movement that is not actually theistic very skeptical so north i've been thrown a lot at a
03:32:48.560i gave a whole long rant there what do you think about that does my assessment of maybe the driving
03:32:54.680forces of some of these movements does that uh sound true at all i i think you bring up a lot
03:33:00.840of good points in that it's important that this was part of my attempt with the documentary and
03:33:07.980it was a small sample size of just you know mr russell who is the the pagan in the film but
03:33:15.700we did discuss to an extent what what are the primary motivating motivating factors for
03:33:22.540those who are taking the approach of paganism and certainly some come at it for purely aesthetic
03:33:32.660reasons i think these i think the aesthetic reasons are honestly under played i i would
03:33:38.300my own certainly my own interest within uh in these sort of classical pagan stories is
03:33:46.280partly the narrative partly the characters but to a great extent it is the aesthetic draw and
03:33:51.740what we've seen in the last especially the last um 100 years or 150 years in particular is
03:33:59.460this way in which the west has really divorced itself from its traditional aesthetics uh its
03:34:07.180traditional national aesthetics um if you there's a reason like it's a very different experience to
03:34:14.200go and worship in a contemporary church that is doing basically like a rock band concert versus
03:34:20.540if you were to go out into rural Norway and worship in a stave church like these these are
03:34:27.500drastically different aesthetic and spiritual experiences even if they are even if they're
03:34:33.860both kind of on paper pursuing the same thing um beyond that there is we talked about this I talked
03:34:40.960about this as well with Tom there there is certainly a faction of the more right-wing
03:34:45.520leaning pagans who are their first principle isn't actually their their belief in the supernatural
03:34:53.580or their belief necessarily in the gods themselves it's primarily as a sort of utilitarian tool
03:35:00.320for their ethnic interests for their in-group preference and that's that's a very different
03:35:07.040thing to actually believing in the existence of like the more tangible existence of gods per se
03:35:14.340to touch on that i i agree i agree with that no no i was going to say you're i think you're dead
03:35:19.720on i think that the i think that a lot of the synthesis you're seeing is is the convergence
03:35:24.620of political theology um i think that right-wing christians and pagans share basically the same
03:35:30.940political theology and for many whether they're aware of it or not because of the fact that
03:35:35.700they're products of their zeitgeist because of the fact that they're products of a post-christian
03:35:40.740sort of rationalist and liberal world um it is an expression of that will it's an expression of that
03:35:49.580will yeah and also just to be clear when we say this stuff like i i've said before that uh you
03:35:54.620know the ultimate criticism of the true traditionalists was that like i think of
03:35:59.740evola i think of rene jordan like their criticism of us would be you're not traditionalist because
03:36:04.420you're still locked within the liberal framework and so that's something i'm trying to
03:36:10.260work with rather than saying we must return we must go back or anything like that i don't even
03:36:15.600think that's necessarily possible i'm trying to figure out a way forward and factor that in and
03:36:20.920understand what it is that draws people not only to christianity but also because i think there's
03:36:25.900some commonality there well i guess my my take and kind of my thesis within this project that
03:36:32.180been working on is it is this idea that there's a reason people are drawn to paganism i think a big
03:36:39.940part of it is this sort of heroic mythology a big part of it is this sort of sense of historical
03:36:45.140rootedness this connection to aesthetics that resonate with our ancestral instincts however
03:36:51.220you would put it i think people tend to be drawn to certain architectural styles certain clothing
03:36:56.660styles ways of uh engaging in the net with the the natural and the the crafted world and
03:37:04.900the i think the christians in the last 150 years in particular uh really post the the romantic
03:37:14.340movement that you saw in like the 1800s where you did get this revival and there was this
03:37:18.820attempt to kind of re-tap back into our our ancient aesthetics and folkways we the christians um
03:37:25.300we've really become historically amnesia, what would you say, amnesiac, or we've developed
03:37:33.720this historical amnesia, as one of my friends would put it, and we've become detached from
03:37:41.340that. And so it's no wonder then that people are looking for something that resonates with
03:37:46.520them, that has the aesthetic factor, that has the historical factor to it, that has
03:37:52.980this sort of grand narrative where they fit into it and they have that sort of ancestral connection
03:37:58.100to this grander story like there's a reason that there is this appeal and i think christians would
03:38:04.260be wise to pay closer attention and see yeah maybe we should start taking seriously this project of
03:38:10.820looking back into our own history understanding how christianity to these
03:44:48.420Also, in the case of Rome, this is what Charles Cochran, the argument that he makes, and there's other authors that make this too, but if you think back to Rome and the story of Christianity in Rome, there was a comment here in the chat about how it was related to the destruction of the Yao men, and all that is part and parcel with it as well.
03:45:35.980this is their world yeah let me say it it is more about as i'm saying like once the state begins this
03:45:43.580is their world race publica means the public thing okay okay this is like the state is their
03:45:50.460religion okay like this is this is the basis of everything they believe okay well that's yeah
03:45:56.520that's what i meant but then once once the state which is this organism in a sense begins to falter
03:46:02.480begins to get corrupt if it can no longer provide materially you're actually left standing there
03:46:08.120and say well what what the fuck am i and you may be asked that for the first time in your entire
03:46:13.340existence and then there's this other thing called christianity which is an entirely different entity
03:46:17.120you've never and it's difficult to explain the mind revolution that was to a roman citizen who
03:46:25.800had never encountered this thing that's higher than this it's outside of everything it just
03:46:30.700seems bigger it's grander it's the introduction of entire it's it's a revolutionary concept that
03:46:36.500was not just dropped there it took centuries of development and there's many ebbs and flows and
03:46:43.520false starts and attempts to suppress it and and you know the entire history but i think that part
03:46:49.460of the spread and you could say there was it was facilitated by political changes yes yes yes yes
03:46:53.800however what made it work wasn't machiavellian i think that's one argument that oh they converted
03:47:02.140the aristocracy and then they made the rules that everyone had to convert it's like people don't
03:47:07.120like for cynical reasons yeah now i will give some examples in my view of of more sort of material
03:47:15.520and or cultural purposes for why this would happen and i will no doubt get some pushback on this
03:47:20.580But if I recall correctly, and to Sandbatch's point, even though this is very hindsight is 2020 perspective, we're limited by our zeitgeist living in a rationalist world.
03:47:37.740If I recall correctly, you look at the example of Constantine.
03:47:41.480Constantine was somebody who was baptized on his deathbed.
03:47:45.440Nobody actually knows if he was really Christian or not.
03:47:49.000He murdered his wife and then his mother. You know, like, did he do it for political and strategic political purposes for consolidating power for trying to bring stability to the empire? I think there's a plausible case to be made there.
03:48:04.080um if you look at the if you look at the hold on hold on if you look at the english if you look at
03:48:09.460the english dane law um the vikings the vikings viewed in some cases christendom and christianity
03:48:19.060and conversion as a method of access into broader civilization because they associated christianity
03:48:25.640with civilization they associated with rome and not just a sort of sedentary um war sorry a nomadic
03:48:33.380warrior kind of life um and and this this tendency also traces back to the earlier
03:48:40.060dramatic tribes with rome their relationship with the roman empire was very much okay there
03:48:45.120are material benefits to becoming civilized to becoming sedentary to having permanent settlements
03:48:49.500to you know i mean and in order to access this we have to become romanized um so like
03:48:56.460and and we circle back to the normans which is like was rollo actually christianized or
03:49:02.860you know he was we know he was um did he do it in order to consolidate control over neustria
03:49:09.360probably probably like there's there's reasons you know that was one of the conditions we if
03:49:15.300you stop raiding us we will give you this land uh and you must baptize yourself um but there's
03:49:21.540nothing in there's nothing in rollo's behavior that demonstrates that he took this as perhaps
03:49:26.160as seriously as he should have um so to answer the question in my view you know did some people
03:49:32.540or some figures do this out of a sort of cynical material purposes yes i think so i think there's
03:49:38.040a case to be made i don't think there's anything cynical here at all this is the thing is like we
03:49:43.340again we want to do this is like is there a political consideration yes there's a political
03:49:47.420consideration but there's no division in these people's minds yet there's no division in these
03:49:52.940people's minds between politics and providence okay and so like they understand in a very real
03:50:01.580way they the baseline understanding of christianity is fundamentally pagan which is their god
03:50:10.060conquered our god okay and so and additionally we can extend that this god the negotiating with
03:50:19.640this god this this total holistic concept this people this god negotiating with them on this
03:50:26.300ground gains us this material advantage but there's no separation between the temporal and
03:50:32.460the spiritual advantage okay so these these two things are fused this isn't cynical it made
03:50:38.100perfect sense on all planes at all times yes there's a decision that has to be made there is
03:50:44.200this character that looks at the look and this is this is the essence of medieval kingship right
03:50:49.500here is that this is this person who on which his negotiation with the ether with the which is a
03:50:56.660concept we haven't really talked about his negotiation with the ether versus the material
03:51:00.820and the spiritual is what determines our faith okay and so like yeah you can say i don't want
03:51:07.580to say this is cynical this is political this is anything like this on the basis of what this man
03:51:12.780knew he did these things because his concept of the gods told him to do that his concept of god's
03:51:20.900kind of god's that's fair you know back to his concept of god's extends to you know his own
03:51:26.540people's subjugation by this jesus character who by the way joining up with this jesus character
03:51:32.440and acknowledging him as the overarching deity has done my people very well so why not well this was
03:51:40.280clovis's uh perspective too like his wife his wife was um was a christian he was still
03:51:47.560paling whatever frankish gods uh the old saxon frisian gods or whatever and he had never lost
03:51:54.580a battle and then very famously he loses a battle and prays to christ to grant him victory
03:51:59.140and lo and behold he wins this battle and then he's like all right we're all converting to
03:52:05.140christianity yeah i think the wrong way to look at that as you and sam that you're probably saying
03:57:57.280assumptions than that than those on which the western canon is based because when we build an
03:58:01.760english canon what we're trying to look for is the minimum viable data set that can be used to
03:58:07.720reconstruct the english worldview the reconstruct you take this very compact like zip files thing
03:58:13.800and we can rebuild all of england from it theoretically just a note to the side later
03:58:21.360in the article he does mention that i believe bale wolf would be up there as well so you have
03:58:25.660this really fascinating yeah uh you know he doesn't really know he kind of he kind of poops
03:58:32.040on big beowulf and so do i paradise lost is the central one here paradise lost is the same okay
03:58:37.320so radical idea yeah radical idea here maybe maybe a little crazy could there be a case to be made
03:58:46.040that globalism with the anglo uh with the anglo sphere exporting its culture have led to a more
03:58:55.960unified canon from the emergence of the anglo world and its cultural and sociopolitical pressure
03:59:02.680on the rest of western civilization could there be a case to be made that all of these sort of
03:59:07.480converged because this is how we get to the bank of england sandy when you you're not wrong when
03:59:13.960When you talk about Western canon, what I think of is the Bible and the Iliad, but then Diamond made a really good point, which is like, yeah, Dawkins is inevitably, whether we like it or not, is part of Western canon.
04:06:05.020them a text that they could understand so he's yeah there have been cloistered english monks and
04:06:10.580that sort of thing in the greek before this but milton is in the first generation of that has
04:06:14.160access to be like go directly to the people and say this is my the bible is here in english and
04:06:20.160i'm explaining it in english there's no greek interpolation that needs to happen so that's
04:06:24.340the that's the important thing that's happening there so uh just a couple other comments here
04:06:30.740um also paladin says the complete works of monty python are part of the english canada as well
04:06:36.880we have a hundred year moratorium so like sex freakman says sandy my emj since is tangled i
04:06:43.580think he means e michael jones no no you know he's the only person i've ever actually hung up
04:06:48.160on in the middle of an interview we did not go on well he's interesting because we interviewed
04:06:55.420him on the show it was only for around an hour but we'd also cover his book logos rising and
04:07:00.380And he was an example of what I was talking about, about sort of getting both arms around this idea of Christianity from a philosophical point of view and describing the word, sort of the evolution of the word of God and it having, what was it?
04:07:17.340He said that humanity needed the Greeks to basically teach it how to understand God.
04:07:24.160That was one of his central arguments.
04:07:25.940So it's just an interesting way of looking at it, but it's very grounded in linear time.
04:07:30.540And so, you know, our evolution of thinking is so that we can understand these larger ideas.
04:07:37.280And so anyway, the point being that the reason I was bringing up the English canon, and we can really get into the weeds on this.
04:07:45.180I'm trying to bring this back to the main topic because I don't want to box out north from this conversation.
04:07:50.540But the idea being that there, if we accept this, that there's something like the English canon or the Western canon that seems to have these incongruent central pillars involved in it.
04:08:03.740Like I said, there's, let's just say there's Beowulf.
04:08:09.100and let's say Richard Dawkins is even in there because he says that in the first article as well
04:08:13.380we don't seem to have any trouble balancing those or rather it's may it might not need to be
04:08:20.600something we can reconcile in the circle back to the earlier point we were making any sort of
04:08:25.760synthesis between paganism and christianity not only has happened historically but it could happen
04:08:31.780in the future although not along spiritual lines it'll be this other thing and i guess that would
04:08:37.660be you know and we can maybe even end on this i've said that a couple of times but um i was
04:08:43.480reading this book recently that we haven't even covered on the show we're going to be covering
04:08:46.580next episode it is called uh building a ruin by yakov fagan and it's um describing the cold war
04:08:54.700economy of the soviet union um and a lot of a lot of communists and and um stalinists will say that
04:09:01.140the communist system failed simply because it wasn't given a shot but if you actually look at
04:09:06.200The internal politics in the Soviet Union at the time is much more interesting.
04:09:09.740There's a similar left-right dichotomy that you see everywhere else because I see more just a function of a civilization rather than an ideology.
04:09:18.360But you've got the reform side and you've got the conservative side.
04:09:21.440And they're trying to figure out how to adapt their economy.
04:09:24.660And over the course of several, from Brezhnev up to Gorbachev, you see this, not adoption of the American system, but the acknowledgement that, okay, we need to catch up and defeat America to compete with them.
04:09:39.180We need to engage in this scientific technological revolution.
04:09:43.980We need to distance ourselves just from commodity and industry.
04:09:47.560And that was a very difficult transition they did.
04:09:50.020Point being that it was that process of getting away from just commodities industrialization to innovating technology and also developing a consumer market for the stuff that, and also the transition from the American or the Western system, not to be purely capitalist, but also sort of a fusion of capitalist, socialist technocracy that they both sort of converged along these lines.
04:10:14.940long story short it seemed that technology and the drive technology was disrupting both of these
04:10:22.460pure systems that people thought they were servicing but just couldn't if they wanted to
04:10:28.000survive so what i was going to say was if we are talking about a synthesis of christian and paganism
04:10:33.840not along spiritual lines could it possibly be along technological lines or is is spirituality
04:10:41.200having to catch up and fit itself in with a technological revolution that is now the singular
04:10:49.340driving force of seemingly every civilization right now that's a lot i understand does any of
04:10:56.140that make any sense by the way no it makes total sense but it makes me cross-eyed because we're
04:11:00.560wrapping up and like it's like that's where i start talking a lot you know firstly it's a weird
04:11:08.080coincidence you bring this up because i was actually just recently reading about soviet
04:11:11.820history and um the the reforms by khrushchev are very fascinating and then you get to breznov and
04:11:18.520it's like this this guy ruins everything like if you get that example of that newsreel meme where
04:11:24.220it's like local man ruins everything and that's basically what breznov did to the soviet union
04:11:29.180um he backtracked a lot of these reforms that were attempting to reconcile the soviet union's
04:11:34.520internal problems with um with reformation and uh and yeah just very fascinating stuff i think
04:11:40.960you're i think you're uh 100 correct on that on that final point as well i do believe that
04:11:47.120traditional spirituality and religion are undoubtedly catching up i think that uh technology
04:11:52.460as a driving force has certainly made much of it obsolete and it you know and it's not just
04:11:57.500in spiritual religion but it's also in in terms of human organization um and of course we can
04:12:03.440Man, you know, Sam Batch was right. Like we could talk about this for another two hours, like Burnham and Harris in Managerial Revolution and in Leviathan and its enemies talk about the technology's influence on the managerial system and how the managerial system came to dominate everywhere, starting in the USSR and then the Third Reich and then also ultimately in the United States and Canada and encompassing the entire Western world.
04:12:29.420um so yeah man that's a lot to chew on
04:12:33.320all right so sandy um first north did any were you tracking that i understand i'm trying to
04:12:42.640relate it to the central point i know we probably i was going to cap it off at an hour and a half
04:12:47.240and before i kick this over to sandy because i know he's probably got a lot to say do you have
04:12:50.860any thoughts on i'm gonna get i'm gonna get grok to give me the the simple baby version of that
04:13:24.200But he goes to the example of the reason why, and again, perhaps I'm taking this in the wrong direction, so stop me if I am.
04:13:34.080But you can see that I think a lot of the ways that you can attribute the change in the values of Christianity or like the popular strains of Christianity towards something that's heavily emphasizing egalitarianism, heavily emphasizing the sort of global, what do you say, global monocultural version of Christianity, something that's much more in line with promoting ideas of, let's say, sexual inclusivity versus,
04:14:04.080a more traditional understanding of christianity that's more biblically based this is to me it's
04:14:11.280pretty obvious that this isn't an evolution this isn't like the natural evolution of christianity
04:14:16.560as it exists in the world um which like if technology had remained at the level of technology
04:14:24.800in 1080 like you wouldn't get the same evolution nor would you have modern strains of paganism
04:14:32.240that are also in this sort of hyper-liberal strain these are these are definitely outgrowths
04:14:40.960of living in an age that's dominated by yeah the managerial establishment that's dominated by
04:14:50.400the ability to defer consequence of these types of low what would you say like0.67
04:14:57.760low impulse actions or you know you can't behave there's a certain degree of sexual debauchery
04:15:04.900that you suffer more harsh and immediate consequences for a thousand years ago than
04:15:10.800you do with modern uh antibiotics and health care and like am i am i taking this at all in
04:15:19.180in the direction that you were thinking or am i am i just going totally off in the wrong way
04:15:23.140No, no, no, you're doing great. I think that's an important way to summarize it. And I know, Sandy, did you have any thoughts on it as well? And I'm going to try and see if we can keep, probably can't keep this in our two hours.
04:15:36.600Because you're projecting this into the future, as I understand. But I guess unless you have a, is your thought that there will just continue to be increasing levels of managerialism into the world, or there'll be an entirely different technological paradigm, I guess?
04:15:55.120let me say just answer that question quickly um one thing that i was talking about in reference
04:16:01.540to that book i was talking about which is that it seemed that this the economic systems as one
04:16:07.160example have always been struggling to keep up with technological development every single our
04:16:13.180culture struggles to keep up the technological development and i would see spirituality doing
04:16:17.600the same thing or and i wonder if its success can be in rejecting that or trying to keep up with it
04:16:26.960and i don't know immerse itself in that in some way i mean wouldn't you say it's the opposite
04:16:34.960though in some ways like the the managerial state is is has expanded and is it's i mean the issue
04:16:43.760that like musk is facing today is that productivity from technology is out being outpaced by the rise
04:16:52.800in government spending and the rise in the growth of this managerial apparatus uh and
04:17:00.320likewise it's like christian uh because you're saying like christianity or religion is like
04:17:06.880trailing behind is that is that your thesis kind of yeah um you know one interesting example just
04:17:13.040relating to musk is i think musk understands something that no one wants to say out loud
04:17:19.120which is that people need to work people need labor for their identity but the economy may
04:17:27.660very well not need labor we're struggling to actually find jobs for people and that
04:17:34.100conflicts with the paradigm of mass migration we don't really need unskilled labor if we were to
04:17:38.780really invest all of our capital in the automation at hand but we kind of keep this system of
04:17:43.760bullshit jobs and fake stuff going because we don't know what to do otherwise we haven't caught
04:17:48.200up with the possibility and we're kind of seeing that with ai not really but we're gonna get there
04:17:53.100no it's there there it's there yeah i'm curious i'm curious about sandbatch's take yeah yeah no
04:17:59.400i mean we're totally there because you don't really even need the material existence of the
04:18:03.420thing but you only need the certainty of the material existence of things totally disrupting
04:18:07.180the entire structure that we with this thing the concept this modernity thing that we've got
04:18:11.740we are suddenly in a world it's you know bb knives talks about this roland gunn talks about this like
04:18:17.180you know ashley talks about this this hyperabundance scenario where all of a sudden like this like
04:18:22.760necessary to produce and survive is no longer a compelling narrative it's been a compelling
04:18:28.040narrative for christianity it's been a compelling narrative particularly for protestant christianity
04:18:33.060for the last 400 years that seems to be dissipating now okay so like there's this
04:18:39.440massive free for all okay so like this economic incentive this this idea that we need we have to
04:18:45.560be able that we need to optimize religion for the material circumstances of production so we can
04:18:52.560out produce our enemies that seems to be going away so the justification for religion this
04:18:58.420justification for what religious belief that seems to be changing we're sort of freeing people
04:19:02.740from the material constraints that were imposed
04:19:04.720on them at the very start of the stream
04:19:27.840but it has been for the last 400 years
04:19:30.560both Protestants and Catholics have done this
04:19:32.600This is probably why there's an extant sort of pagan revolt against it.
04:19:39.800What I would sort of see happening is that I don't think Christianity is any danger of surviving,
04:19:45.920but I think Christianity, as it's conceived by lots of Christian sects who have been ideologically, politically persuaded to sort of buy into one particular aspect of Christianity,
04:19:56.980I think brittleness in your Christianity is going to be a detriment moving into the future because the material advantages for it, the material advantages of, you know, sort of ideological comportment to one specific brand of Christianity or even one specific brand of paganism, I think these are probably decreasing.
04:20:19.840We're going to see, we're entering an incredibly, you know, synesthetic era right now where, like, nobody really knows the rules.
04:20:28.280Nobody really knows what's going to happen.
04:20:30.320But I think the idea that Christianity is going to go away or that paganism either is going to go away is probably pretty dumb.
04:20:37.540What we're like, we're sort of like looking at this world where we're going to see how they interact with one another moving forward.
04:20:45.820And we don't really know how it's going to happen.
04:20:48.220And let me give one example of what I'm talking about.