01:36:39.100that we can still ship and deliver more effectively than we ever could can you still
01:36:44.240engage with a wider market with a smaller manufacturing base with a more agile product
01:36:51.080design process so you are already moving away from the mass model into it's evolving into
01:36:56.680something else entirely and asking different questions about what type do we is there such
01:37:03.280a thing as planned obsolescence in this world are we getting back to a different type like are we
01:37:08.480rethinking why we make products to begin with because we're so lost in our current paradigm of
01:37:16.220well you know we kind of need to build the product shitty because we need people to keep buying it
01:37:21.100otherwise we can't keep this skyscraper open well i mean if you remove the skyscraper if you just
01:37:27.260rejigger this whole thing can we actually make better products at a smaller scale but that
01:37:32.840smaller scales okay you know i bet you see people think i'm being very vague about this but you can
01:37:38.820kind of see the shape of the thing we're talking about but it would be that is something you could
01:37:44.140perhaps be more inter isolationist about and if you're talking about reshoring we don't just want
01:37:50.040the same factories coming back over from china i don't think anyone wants that we need something
01:37:55.720we need something new and more dynamic anyway oh he continues on here he says the large scale and
01:38:03.840complexity of mass organizations and their dependence on highly technical functions and
01:38:08.800the skills that perform them serve to create elites within them that differ in composition
01:38:13.880structure mentality and interests from those that presided over civilizations of europe prior to the
01:38:20.520industrial and democratic revolutions of the 18th century and from those that ruled 19th century
01:38:27.000bourgeois Europe and America. The persistence of traditional institutions and systems of belief
01:38:32.780constrains and impedes the continuing growth of mass organizations and is imperative for the
01:38:39.140emerging elites to challenge, discredit, and erode the moral, intellectual, and institutional
01:38:45.400fabric of traditional society that sustains the older elites mass organizations have come to
01:38:51.460predominate western society in the 20th century and the managerial elites and direct control of
01:38:56.560them constitute the elite or dominant minority in the western world so what are you saying there
01:39:02.320in so many words is that the mass organization is threatened constantly by the traditional
01:39:08.360hierarchies the traditional institutions that's why it is so aggressive towards the church
01:39:15.240traditional institutions old ideas because you know those threaten this this new thing
01:39:21.640and so it will always pursue a sort of egalitarian secularism not because it even
01:39:29.020necessarily believes in it but just that serves its interests
01:39:33.280it continues on here it says the manager elite has little objection to this process of the
01:39:44.240dematerialization of property and much to gain from it the manager's wealth does not derive
01:39:50.320from the private property they own but from the salaries that specialized skills command
01:39:55.120and in general the techno the techno structure does not seek immense personal wealth or large
01:40:01.980accumulations of personal property so what do you say there was you're contrasting the mass
01:40:06.940organization against the bourgeoisie who are the bourgeoisie at the end of the day they were still
01:40:11.400people that cared about land and wealth and the community and all that stuff so they measured
01:40:18.280their power differently their elite status was achieved by different means um and so this the
01:40:25.800mass organization rejects all that it doesn't care about accumulating land or taking care of
01:40:31.620land or being a steward of anything and their elites try to de-seat the bourgeoisie elites
01:40:38.100and they can do that because the bourgeoisie have traces as scant as they might be of that
01:40:46.180martial class there's still an echo in the bourgeoisie there of the people you should care
01:40:51.220about the people you know you should um you should care about like the nature and the land and things
01:40:58.260like that or at least there's there's there's a slow simmering understanding of that but that is
01:41:05.060used against them in the same way the economic man dominated the martial man they're used their
01:41:10.180strength is inverted in a weakness as they're confronted with this amorphous power structure
01:41:15.860that has no allegiance to anything so you can use on here the dematerialization of property
01:41:23.940also has a central element in the evolution of the managerial political order for if not for
01:41:29.460not only diminishes opposition to public regulation of the economy but also undermines the autonomy
01:41:34.820and power of the bourgeois and other social forces that challenge or resist the managerial regime
01:41:42.020the diffusion of hard private property among the middle classes of 19th century europe was a basic
01:41:47.380pillar of the political independence and constitutional regimes of the bourgeoisie era
01:41:52.860so it's almost attacking the idea of land ownership entirely and turning people into a
01:41:59.380atomized renter class so he continues on here
01:42:04.780and there's a lot of comments in here that will sound familiar to people who've been in the space
01:42:11.820for a long time about everyone is atomized everyone is materialistic so he agrees with
01:42:17.700that he's trying to explain how that happened uh the he calls it the homogenization here he says
01:42:24.740the process of homogenization is rationalized by a cosmopolitan ideology that regards the social
01:42:31.300and cultural differentiations of the bourgeois order as backwards artificial and repressive
01:42:36.960The tendency of the mass media towards homogenization and the cosmopolitan ideology that promotes it parallels and reinforces the cultural and ideological tendencies of the managerial corporations.
01:42:49.880The tendency of homogenization of the audiences of mass media is evident in mass advertising.
01:42:55.640Mass consumption presupposes a uniformity of wants on the part of all consumers.
01:42:59.900now this is where i actually disagree with them because i think when we talked about martin gurry
01:43:06.980in revolt of the public it was mass media ironically that triggered the complete shattering
01:43:16.000of the idea of the mass man that i think in the boot that the air of the bourgeoisie you had the
01:43:23.500bush was he but he had the people everyone was very lateral the kinship was very flat but with
01:43:31.520mass media it's called mass media because it's big but you understand that you cannot talk to
01:43:37.060each audience the same way and marketing and advertising understood that but every tv executive
01:43:42.820and movie maker knew that as well so you started to see the people the capital p people begin to
01:43:50.420breakdown due to mass media into publics of distinct interests and you have the birth of
01:43:57.040this idea of demographics you didn't really have an understanding of demographics hundreds of years
01:44:03.160ago right you understand men and women and children obviously but the idea that you can group women
01:44:10.000into married and unmarried you communicate with them in different ways unmarried women of a certain
01:44:16.460age is a different way too so i i think he's wrong on that but in a completely inverted way
01:44:23.600but uh does that sound right to you yeah yeah kind of yeah i mean i think i i think you could
01:44:29.780it depends on how they define the mass man like if the mass man is just like something more nebulous
01:44:35.840and larger maybe the mass man is a category that contains everything else and when you
01:44:40.000build them out into demographics that's when you're really flattening them and you're you know
01:44:44.920But I don't know. I don't know what their definitions are, but certainly. Yeah. Yeah. He says. And what was interesting is that he was talking and we talked about this. Where was it? It was it was with Kalecki.
01:45:02.260We were saying that his theory was that the theory of the entrepreneur is very faulty and that it's the owners of capital who dictate where capital goes.
01:45:17.280And there's this idea that the entrepreneur can kind of enter into the wild and rub two sticks together and make a business when in fact they are really trying to advocate for themselves in the hopes that capital will be released over them from the banks or angel investors or whoever it might be.
01:45:35.880They can't really just conjure it themselves from the magic of the marketplace.
01:45:42.120And that's really if you've run your own business at a certain point, you realize that I'm just I'm searching for a spigot.
01:45:50.040That's what I'm looking for now to at least get me started.
02:15:15.540uh with um what the fuck's his name he was uh Liam Neeson um and for his to his credit Liam
02:15:24.720Neeson was very good in it but people don't realize how no one takes the Kinsey scale really
02:15:31.660seriously anymore his a lot of his research was discredited based on his methodologies but
02:15:38.440to most people, they just parrot this popular wisdom that most people are secretly hedonistic
02:15:46.060perverts. That's just not the fucking case. So we just were psychoanalysis is more popular than
02:15:52.920ever before. But we're not terribly good at it. And we are not as in you and I, but also the
02:15:58.820professionals aren't either. Yeah, they're pathologizing everyone. What is the name of
02:16:03.820that book uh the therapeutic state by thomas zaz it's an s-z-a-z something like that yeah let's
02:16:12.260let's circle back to that because it's very tied in i never heard of it until you just brought it
02:16:16.220up yeah it's really good and thomas zaz he wasn't a nobody he was um uh i think he was what was he
02:16:22.720i'm just looking it up he had some very august institution behind him i think he was a he was
02:16:30.360a professor at the university of new york he was a lifetime fellow of the american psychiatric
02:16:34.840association um so like this was a guy from the inside of psychiatry this wasn't an outsider this
02:16:40.860is a guy who was very well versed with everything and he was calling it out from the inside good
02:16:47.300good so listen let's try to lay out the thesis of program to kill which is not a simple thing
02:16:53.580um i have the chicken hawk isn't really a sequel or to this book but it is a follow-up to this book
02:17:02.820and i consider david mcgowan to be like one of the most vindicated men of the modern era because
02:17:10.080this book is pretty fucking wacky and it's pretty far out there and you know i have the chicken
02:17:16.980hawk is well written it's well laid out it's comprehensive it's chronological in a way and
02:17:24.380it's really well researched but program to kill is really well researched but it's not
02:17:30.060well researched enough in my opinion and it's an absolute mess and it's not really well written
02:17:36.660and you have to work really hard to like yeah it jumps around a lot and that's why when i was
02:17:43.280getting my notes together for it i had to take parts from the end because i write pretty
02:17:48.460comprehensive notes in sequence i had to rearrange it all yeah some kind of flow to it exactly you
02:17:53.880have to be really gracious to dave mcgowan you have to really give this guy the benefit of the
02:17:57.780doubt and to be completely honest with you i'm going to say this up front you kind of don't
02:18:03.820have to read program to kill anymore except as a historical kind of uh waypoint in that
02:18:12.560And so much he is so vindicated and so much of the things he claims and speculates on have been proven true since he wrote this book that it's worth reading just to see like how little this guy had to go on back then.
02:18:27.300It came out in 2004 and how close he got to the truth and how there are certain things where he draws conclusions with massive gaps in the evidence and he still ended up drawing the right conclusion.
02:18:42.560Yeah. And another thing is that society, and you alluded to this just there, society was working against him. And I'm old enough to remember this thing called the satanic panic.
02:18:53.700Yeah, that's a huge factor in the book.
02:18:55.320Yeah, there's this, and that really goes back to the McMartin school case. And as I'm saying this, a lot of your listeners and a lot of our listeners are aware of this. They know what the finders are. We're going to get into it more, as I'm sure we planned out.
02:19:09.180but they're there they've heard of the finders they've heard of all this stuff just by being
02:19:13.240online it's right into the zeitgeist however there was like a good fucking five ten years
02:19:20.520where if you were talking about this stuff you were called hysterical like the society
02:19:25.360laughing at you there was there's more than 10 years listen i came i came onto the internet in
02:19:32.740the first place uh because of my interesting conspiracy theories all right i started using
02:19:38.860the internet like in any like regular uh capacity in like 1999 maybe and i was researching
02:19:47.720conspiracy theories and that's pretty much like all i did for a long time and then i kind of got
02:19:53.560away from it and i got back to it because of epstein i sort of like went back i was like holy
02:19:58.580shit everything was real we were right about everything everything was true this is like
02:20:03.560actually happening this is real uh you say one thing that i've come to understand is that not
02:20:09.440all conspiracy theories are true or even that interesting but it seems to me that every single
02:20:14.800conspiracy involving rape is true yeah the the child molester stuff so um i forgot where i was
02:20:21.880going with that exactly but oh you gotta get into the space through conspiracy theories you got back
02:20:26.240can do it uh through epstein yeah so that's i like that that's my similar story so what we're
02:20:33.660doing now excuse me since epstein was killed and you have to remember it it's only been six years
02:20:41.180since epstein was killed six years historically is nothing no it's no it's no amount of time no
02:20:47.160no serious history of world war ii was written six years within the first six years like no
02:20:52.200serious history of any major historical event uh had that high of a turn had that fast of a
02:21:00.740turnaround for a comprehensive history like uh what's his name nick i forget i'm forgetting his
02:21:05.920nick bryant he just put out the definitive book on the franklin school but that's been around since
02:21:12.000like 86 like that's been around for like 30 years like oh yeah man so this stuff takes a long time
02:21:17.740for it all to be put together and this is only now happening with like epstein and and the child
02:21:23.540you know sex trafficking the franklin cover-up that's a fascinating book as well and we cover
02:21:29.080that way like a while ago and the one we had covered was the book titled the franklin cover-up
02:21:34.800it was by john w de camp and uh there was parts in that book when i was reading it where i thought
02:21:40.080this is going too far he's reaching because yes of course there was a coordinated child sex abuse
02:21:47.260ring operated by these individuals however they're talking about child sacrifice they're
02:21:52.780talking about satanic rituals i don't know about that but you know as you get deeper into this
02:21:58.620you're thinking well that seems to be a pattern yeah and of course dave mcgowan is convinced that
02:22:05.080that's a central part of the pattern so look why don't we so this book is is poor very very poorly
02:22:10.400written okay no offense to dave mcgowan the dude's like a hero the dude is like on the mount
02:22:16.300Everest of conspiracy theories like this guy's going to be on there but it's poorly written in
02:22:21.060the thesis I I actually did some writing on this like I haven't published it but I was writing it
02:22:26.460out to try to like get ready and I was like let me see if I can write the most concise thesis for
02:22:33.540this book possible and it's like a page long but if that's not bad enough he never actually lays
02:22:40.700out his thesis you kind of have to figure it out for yourself so I think the first thing I'd like
02:22:44.660to do with you is to like lay the thesis out without missing anything and to get us started
02:22:53.500the thesis is basically like uh in circa 1973 1974 mk ultra was exposed and over the course
02:23:04.640of the 70s i think the last hearing on mk ultra was 78 or 79 because there was two hearings there's
02:23:10.760the church committee and then there's another one who if you say the name i'll remember it
02:23:13.900there's a second one because someone in the cia saw the first investigation and they were like
02:23:21.180okay well sydney gotleb like destroyed all the evidence but i know where there's boxes of receipts
02:23:26.100so they had a second hearing after the boxes of receipts and then john marx's book the search for
02:23:31.660the maturian candidate came out so mcgowan's thesis is basically like well i don't like they
02:23:39.340had some pretty serious objectives with that program and i don't really think that they would
02:23:44.140stop going after those objectives because they got exposed they would have just changed it it
02:23:50.340would have gone it would have gone more underground and and all they really would have done is they
02:23:53.820would have continued the program so if i would at least start the thesis here and i'll hand it over
02:23:59.960to you to fill in the gaps the thesis is basically that mk ultra got exposed but the cia continued to
02:24:07.860have the same objectives. So they changed up their program and they got hip to the fact that
02:24:13.720people were onto them. So they didn't name their program anymore, but it was still effectively
02:24:17.700MKUltra. And the purpose, according to McGowan, I have a different argument. I think the objectives
02:24:25.280of MKUltra were not what everyone thinks the objectives were, but McGowan accepts that the
02:24:31.460objectives of MKUltra were to, in fact, create a Manchurian candidate, which was a programmed
02:24:37.720killer who his psyche was split through the MKUltra program, through drug use and hypnosis
02:24:46.400in particular, but also, unfortunately, molestation as a young child. And it forced them to disassociate
02:24:54.820and split their psyche. So one half of the psyche is the person that you know, and the other half
02:25:00.780of the psyche is like a sleeper cell killer that can be activated by the cia and once they're
02:25:06.780activated the sleeper cell killer takes over commits the crime which is either espionage
02:25:12.780although he doesn't talk about that in this book it's just murder commits the murder the sleeper
02:25:18.680cell psyche goes back you know underground goes dormant and the conscious mind takes over again
02:25:24.540and the person's personality comes back and the objective of that is that if the person gets
02:25:29.600caught he won't give up his sources he won't give up the people controlling him if he's caught and
02:25:34.900he's subjected to interrogation he legitimately doesn't know like who his handlers are and the
02:25:42.000people that the cia are having this guy kill are people who are being used in these sex crimes in
02:25:49.440these sex programs uh they and the sex program is several things one it's like making new mk ultra
02:25:57.520program killers. So they have to like serially molest these children in these satanic rituals
02:26:04.000in order to turn them into these killers, number one. But number two, they're also making snuff
02:26:09.860porn. And it's well known that the CIA has all these black funds, these black slush funds that
02:26:16.360they use basically from selling drugs to make money to fund their illegal wars so they don't
02:26:22.240have to go through Congress and they can do all these backdoor wars. And the money laundering that
02:26:27.380they're involved in is from selling drugs but according to dave mcgowan it's also from making
02:26:32.380smut films but then once you you know make these smut films you have all these people involved in
02:26:39.300making it that can rat you out so they use these mk ultra sleeper cell assassins to kill those
02:26:45.740people too and that's what the serial killer is according to dave mcgowan and according to dave
02:26:51.900mcgowan serial killers don't even exist and the profile that robert wrestler came up with for the
02:26:58.060fbi he was in on the whole thing and he came up with that as a cover and the last thing i'll say
02:27:04.760on this and i if you have anything to add please feel free is that things like the mcmartin school
02:27:10.280where they were like uh molesting children and according to dave mcgowan killing them
02:27:15.420en masse was a cia-run program to you know abduct these children's like funnel them traffic them
02:27:24.720through this preschool and put them in this program and turn some of them into killers and
02:27:30.280put some of them in snuff films and to traffic some of them to politicians and then the murder
02:27:37.840victims that we see and he's got a lot of evidence actually like this is he's not totally pulling
02:27:44.340this out of his ass as crazy as it sounds some of these murder victims were either people who
02:27:49.500were involved in the making of the snuff film or they were trafficked individuals who spent their
02:27:53.640entire lives being trafficked to like politicians and stuff and then when it's time for that to set
02:27:59.160them free they're murdered and found you know and then they get assigned by the the authorities to
02:28:06.500these serial killers like oh you know so and so has this particular pattern and uh so we can take
02:28:13.280all these 20 bodies that we found in this one area and assign it to this one guy did i get any
02:28:18.820of that wrong and am i missing anything no no you're correct and i'll build on that um and some
02:28:24.460of the stuff you had said there some of it gets jumbled up because his like you had said why are
02:28:32.120these children being trafficked and it's for a few things one is to bring them to politicians
02:28:36.740why are they end up in why are they ending up in ritual satanic sacrifices there's a lot going on
02:28:42.200there but just to summarize it for people if i had to put it into one line it would be that
02:28:48.300the cia is breaking people's minds to make serial killers that act as their assassins
02:28:56.680and one example they give is henry lee lucas and these are serial killers some infamous ones who
02:29:03.260even confessed to this very openly and maybe they were serial liars but they would say the problem
02:29:10.340is that with someone like Henry Lee Lucas or John Wayne Gacy, you can't say that everyone they
02:29:17.660killed was an assassination. So the idea was that all these people will be let off the leash to
02:29:24.240kill. And when they were arrested, sometimes they're let off with very light sentences.
02:29:29.120But maybe once in a while, they have a target that they're supposed to take out. And then
02:29:34.140they're just kind of let loose because you know it would be wrong to read a book like this and
02:29:40.360come away with the conclusion that every serial killer is a government assassin because you look
02:29:45.800at someone like Ted Bundy and you know that story and there's a wealth of documentation on it and I
02:29:51.620look at him and I say I think that's just a guy who liked raping and brutalizing women
02:29:55.500that seems to be what his thing was I don't know if he was trained or raped and a lot of some of
02:30:03.440Sometimes they don't have traumatic childhoods.
02:30:06.000Sometimes they're fine, and they just become vicious later in life.
02:30:10.200However, that is the thesis, that serial killers don't exist.
02:30:13.760They're created by the government through MKUltra
02:30:18.100and through an organized system of trauma.
02:47:12.000were caused by the government or in service
02:47:14.180of the government so like you have to understand
02:47:16.100And I think this is more to your point that despite the fact that there's something here, like there's some bad examples, there's some good examples.
02:47:25.060I've picked this apart myself, but I'm like, I keep coming back to it and saying there's something in here that I think, you know, bears more investigation.
02:47:34.280However, let's not go so far as to think that there's no such thing as rapists.
02:47:38.600There are guys out there, some of them who just like attacking women, some of them just like attacking children.
02:47:45.040And in fact, those people tend to be, within the framework of this theory, brought in to be – you either want broken people or you want to break people.
02:47:57.780That's the idea, fundamental to why the government will be involved in this at all.
02:48:03.380And just to – if I can just draw a connection here, there's another book – because you had mentioned this earlier that did MKUltra continue by a different name?
02:49:34.440at here is that they would have never surrendered
02:49:36.540the quest to control the human brain through trauma or implantation of some kind yeah okay
02:49:45.560so sticking with the government programs i want to get back to bundy but the the phoenix program
02:49:51.160you you threw that out there but we didn't say what the phoenix program was it's less
02:49:54.840famous than mk ultra and i have a book on the phoenix program and i think i should maybe get
02:50:01.140into it more elsewhere but for our purposes the phoenix program was basically this like
02:50:07.660clandestine operation that the cia ran in vietnam which was a preemptive attempt to get to people
02:50:17.580in the population of vietnam who might be non non people who are not part of the vietcong so
02:50:23.880citizens regular citizens to get to them before the vietnam con gets to them get to them first
02:50:29.300before the vietcong gets to them and the vietcong if they get to them they'll indoctrinate them and
02:50:33.000turn them into you know suicide bombers basically to uh kill gis like in the cities and stuff
02:50:40.300uh it's you know it's well known like the girl with the grenade under her hat or the little boy
02:50:46.780selling flowers in the city in saigon with the grenade in his in his flower pot and blows up
02:50:51.940some gis it's in that movie good morning vietnam it's in apocalypse now everybody knows that
02:50:56.680So the Phoenix program was an attempt to counteract that. And basically what they would do is like kill people. And they were ostensibly like identifying people as like possible targets for the Viet Cong to turn into these guerrilla fighters and they would kill them, but they wouldn't just kill them.
02:51:14.740And they would, like, torture them to extract information to find out if they're working with the Viet Cong or to find out where the Viet Cong is hiding out or to find out if they've already been gotten to.
02:51:24.320And this torture would sometimes result in, like, extremely grisly deaths.
02:51:29.360and why this is like important to like people who haven't read program to kill but people who are
02:51:37.240just like interested in conspiracy theories and and and the whole pizzagate thing and the jeffrey
02:51:41.740epstein thing anyway is that they would take pictures of them they would take pictures of
02:51:46.940the dead bodies and they i mean we're talking like dismemberments we're talking like women
02:51:50.960tied to trees and raped for three days before you know crazy shit heads cut off put on spikes
02:51:56.920and crazier than that right mcgowan argues that the cia like these serial killer people were doing
02:52:07.100that to you know citizens right but here's the interesting thing the photographs of these dead
02:52:14.820bodies some of them were posed or found bludgeoned or stabbed or shot and their bodies arranged in
02:52:23.720like very similar ways to the way the victims of serial killers bodies were found so mcgowan argues
02:52:31.160that like you know the victims of such and such a serial killer were found in all these different
02:52:36.240poses with with a gunshot to this part of their temple or whatever which is exactly what the dead
02:52:42.800bodies of the victims of the phoenix program look like and that's a great example and just to do a
02:52:49.520sidebar here that's what i keep coming back to where it's like we can get lost in the minutia
02:52:54.260of bad examples but i'm like the phoenix program was real like let's not let the phoenix program
02:52:59.480was unambiguously real the argument is that it was happening on american soil that that's what
02:53:04.940you have to accept or not accept and you have to you have to decide whether or not has anything
02:53:10.160to fucking do with the serial killers but um just think about jeffrey dommer's victims and
02:53:16.820the photographs of jeffrey damer's victims the most famous one i don't know if the cover of this
02:53:20.820book by the way is a cadaver it's a torso with what looks perhaps like a pentagram carved into
02:53:26.820it but it could just be random slash marks of this uh yeah it's a weird cover i remember when
02:53:34.340i first saw this book it's been on my list to read over for quite some time but i'm like it
02:53:38.900kind of looks like barbed wire or wire yeah it looks like he could be wrapped in barbed wire but
02:53:43.160the back the it's got weird it's got like a weird uh the the front cover it's like got a weird it's
02:53:50.400like blurred out but the back cover it looks like a cadaver on a tray or in a bag with like a tag
02:53:57.080on it there's like a mark like the like a forensics is taking pictures of it so you think of
02:54:04.340jeffrey dahmer's victims right and the whole like pizzagate thing where podesta had this piece of
02:54:09.780art hanging from his ceiling which was in the same it was a it was a body without a head who
02:54:16.060was hanging in the middle of his living room which is in the exact same pose as jeffrey dahmer's one
02:54:21.560of jeffrey dahmer's victims right but the argument was like oh the picture of jeffrey dahmer's i
02:54:27.460always assume this picture of program to kill you can find i look this up and it's out there like
02:54:32.760what this is a picture of it is a serial killer's victim that's talked about in this book i just
02:54:36.820can't remember if it's dom or not but like the the the debunkers the debunkers of the uh pizza
02:54:43.860gate conspiracy say like oh the artist who made that that uh sculpture and tony i think i said
02:54:50.880john podesta earlier but it's tony podesta his older brother the sculpture in tony podesta's
02:54:55.200house they made that sculpture right around the same time domer killed that person therefore like
02:55:05.880the picture of that corpse wasn't available to the public for a year or two after that sculpture
02:55:12.840was made. Well, first of all, that doesn't say shit about Tony Podesta because he bought the
02:55:20.240sculpture after the picture was famous. So it's possible that he saw the likeness and thought,
02:55:26.760oh, that looks like this victim. So that doesn't get Tony Podesta off the hook. But even worse
02:55:30.860than that that actually adds fuel to mcgowan's argument because mcgowan's argument is that these
02:55:36.820poses the way these bodies are killed and the way the dead bodies are displayed and put on
02:55:42.020on display was like developed in the phoenix program and then disseminated and taught to
02:55:49.260these killers to pose their victims this way for whatever reason and one of those reasons would be
02:55:55.220like satanic purposes you know i agree completely and also just to build on that um the debunkers
02:56:03.920of this they would try and get you with that gotcha and i would just hit back with oh would
02:56:09.020you have that sculpture in your house well yeah well that's the right exactly it's like no of
02:56:13.860course i would you let your children go to the house no you think it's like a fucked up weird
02:56:17.500thing but the argument is that like okay so she she okay they had nothing to do with jeffrey
02:56:23.120damer's murder but is this well known in satanic circles to pose this body this way as an offering
02:56:31.040to a demon or to satan and that the the jeffrey damer and the artist and tony podesta all know
02:56:37.300about that ritual and that's why you know what i'm saying yeah and also like i want to get across
02:56:43.840to people as well that you don't need to have a complete 360 degree explanation of everything
02:56:50.320for it to be a legitimized zone of inquiry so by that i mean it's like we explain what we're saying
02:56:56.380to most people let's say there's a scale from zero to ten they start off at zero disbelieve in all of
02:57:03.780it anyone who talks about this stuff is a kook yeah by degrees over the course of this conversation
02:57:10.100we've been having i bet we've brought most disbelievers up to level four which is like
02:57:16.040okay why wouldn't the cia be involved in this why wouldn't america have some network like this why
02:57:23.080here is evidence here's proof that these into these weren't alone serial killers they were
02:57:29.480parts of groups like you've got them most will to concede up to level four i think by the end of
02:57:34.960this we can get them to number six and then they'll say well okay let's say there is satanic
02:57:39.460child murder for what reason i'm like i don't know exactly but here's the thing i brought you
02:57:45.820from zero to fucking six at what point do you start saying you want at what point will you
02:57:51.060start helping me at what point will you stop opposing this quest that we're on to figure
02:57:57.380out what the fuck's going on well one of my arguments is that like some of these cases
02:58:02.760like you don't have all the evidence and you'll never have all the evidence you'll never have
02:58:09.220100 proof for for anything from the past unless you know barring the possibility that archives
02:58:17.540hidden archives are dug up somewhere without that happening you the best you can do is like
02:58:24.380understand how these things work and then you see a picture with a million holes in it but you know
02:58:32.180now what the complete whole picture looks like without the holes because of of how these things
02:58:38.940work so let's let's get this one thing out of the way here because i i'm gonna i expect you to agree
02:58:44.440with what i'm about to say the ted bundy thing unfortunately dave mcgowan misrepresents a
02:58:53.260couple things here and there in the book and that's too bad because i think it goes a long
02:58:58.040way to discredit him like i don't want to get too in depth in the henry lee lucas thing unless you
02:59:02.980want to um there are aspects of the henry lee lucas case that help his argument but when you
02:59:10.560really look into henry lee lucas which i did he just looks like a total fucking bullshitter
02:59:15.720like he just got to prison was like smoking their cigarettes and drinking their coffee and just
02:59:21.480fucking he had a bunch of prison guards around him and he was just telling them stories and he
02:59:25.820was just going on and on and on and he was just fucking throwing out any bullshit that came to
02:59:30.300his mind and i think almost all of it was a lie but dave mcgowan puts it in here like like like
02:59:36.980it's the truth almost um so we'll get back to that if you want to but the ted bundy thing he
02:59:42.120also misrepresents like ted bundy gets pulled over and let go at one point and uh mcgowan's
02:59:51.360like why did they pull ted bundy over you know like he wasn't really doing anything wrong like
02:59:56.000why did they have this guy as the key and he and his argument seems to be that like they knew that
03:00:03.080they had this program killer who was going to go down soon so they wanted to like keep tabs on him
03:00:09.600but the real story is that like they pretty much knew that he was the serial killer they were
03:00:14.420looking for and they like set up a trap for him and he was driving around at like three o'clock
03:00:20.660in the morning like looking for victims and they were like hey there's a fucking car driving around
03:00:26.480at three in the morning like and there's a serial killer out there like this is probably the guy
03:00:30.740like let's pull him over you know but mcgowan makes way more out of this than than he should
03:00:37.240he wants you to write a scene in your head where the cop stops him and there's exchange of
03:00:44.400information like a cop on the take would give a mobster exactly exactly dude sorry but yes you
03:00:51.820said that perfectly no sorry i cut you off i don't want to interrupt no no no you you you i'm glad
03:00:58.580you did because you said it better than i did that's how mcgowan wants to picture it but what
03:01:02.200really is happening is the cops are like hey someone there's a serial killer out there there's
03:01:08.380this random car let's pull it over we know we can't get him on anything but let's case the car
03:01:14.300and then they go back later and check the car out right and we'll get back to that in a second so
03:01:20.780he that's in colorado he escapes colorado goes to florida and they build a second case for the
03:01:26.880murders that he commits in florida so now they're getting him on murders that he commits in two
03:01:30.780different states right so they have all this evidence that like is admittedly a huge stretch
03:01:36.660so like the car that they pulled him over at three in the morning like they go back and like sneak
03:01:41.720they sneak and like check the car out and they pull all this evidence out because they like know
03:01:46.540it's their guy that's the thing they know like they know it's their guy and they're just trying
03:01:51.500to like put the pieces together so they can make a case so they can arrest him and they put some
03:01:56.660bullshit in here they're like they find carpet fibers in the car that match the carpet fibers
03:02:02.580that are in one of the victim's houses but at the same time it's like the most commercially
03:02:07.180available carpet fiber on the market so it could have been from anyone's house they find uh one
03:02:13.060hair in the car and mcgowan's like well a they could have planted the hair there you know second
03:02:20.620of like because that sounds like bullshit like how do you find one hair in a car right and like
03:02:24.240yeah maybe it is bullshit and it goes on and on and on but one of the things is like they
03:02:28.700hit there's a witness and they supposedly hypnotize the witness on the stand and she
03:02:34.640like remembers everything perfectly and mcgowan's like hold on a second like my argument is that you
03:02:40.360hypnotize these people into killers you're like making my case for me because you're hypnotizing
03:02:45.480a you're hypnotizing a witness to like give her testimony you know what i mean so like you know
03:02:52.140this is all bullshit and it's a cover-up and his art so my argument i don't buy it i don't buy
03:02:58.500mcgowan on on bundy and i don't buy him on richard ramirez or henry lee lucas but i'm not
03:03:03.000going to make those cases. The Bundy one makes the point
03:03:33.000fuck yeah do it just do it i don't i don't give a shit about due process do whatever you got to
03:03:37.440take to get this guy you know it's your man take it down mcgowan's argument is well this is all
03:03:43.760bullshit they're doing it to cover up the network he's working for okay but he does throw in the
03:03:50.920book he does say that maybe and this is the occam's razor counter to the mcgowan argument
03:03:56.600The Occam's razor counter is it's not that the cops who who throw this bullshit evidence to, like, you know, close the case and get their man are in on it.
03:04:09.180And it's not that they're covering up for it.
03:04:11.960It's that they have 50 unsolved murders and they're able to clear 25 of them with this one case.
03:04:21.400so let's just throw as many of these bodies onto this guy and accuse him of doing it and we'll
03:04:28.500just clear all these cases so all of a sudden this guy that we can prove killed eight people
03:04:32.920now we got him for 25 people right and mcgowan says this plays right into the cia's hands and
03:04:42.560the fbi's hands and they cynically co-opt on this because they're like well we know that the cops if
03:04:50.840we if we put this fake serial killer profile out there and these cops are using the FBI's playbook
03:04:58.820to take these people down, the cops want to clear as many cases as they can. So that'll work to our
03:05:04.480advantage. And the cops don't have to be in on it. The cops don't have to be on the take. They don't
03:05:09.480have to think that there's a cover up in their CIA involvement. They just have to say, like, hey,
03:05:15.640fuck it. We got these eight unsolved murders. We already got this guy for eight. Let's just throw
03:05:20.020it on and make it 16. I like that theory because I think that's almost the inverse of what McGowan
03:05:27.940was saying, which would be that the government is engineering these individuals to commit murders
03:05:34.000for them. On the other hand, you could say that they've created this propaganda that allows the
03:05:41.920police to clear all these cold cases. And it could even be the case that the government is
03:05:48.480involved in those murders in some other way so it's a cover-up from the completely different
03:05:55.100direction and i don't think he even discussed that in the book i think that's an interesting
03:06:00.480angle and um maybe i'll start going with that but it's interesting that even though that's probably
03:06:07.460the more realistic one we're still conceding and everyone has to concede that the government is
03:06:13.380involved in some way. And like I was saying, taking people from zero to six, it's like, well,
03:06:18.740the government did these programs. We know that they did the programs. We know why they did the
03:06:24.160programs. We know that they have no qualms about issuing these sorts of these things within America
03:06:32.380to American citizens. Would the CIA do anything against an American citizen? Would they persecute
03:06:37.080them yes it's muddy and it's complex but even though there's contentious debate on what the
03:06:46.640right interpretation is it seems that everyone is in agreement on the fundamentals which is that
03:06:52.700the government is involved somehow in this that no one really buys the behavioral profile that
03:06:58.760sure if in fact let me just for people who want to know a bit about henry lee lucas
03:07:04.780Let me just read a little bit here from the book
03:07:06.460because I didn't want to do too many readings from this book,
03:07:09.580but this will give you a taste of the type of thing Henry Lee Lucas was saying,
03:08:24.400And this is where it sounds like it could be a bit of a flight of fancy,
03:08:27.420where he says, Henry further claimed that the leaders of the camp were so impressed with his
03:08:31.540handling of a knife that he was allowed to serve as an instructor. Not only was I
03:08:35.720a spy, I was pretty much the best spy and everyone said that I was special.
03:08:39.860I'd be like the James Bond of serial killers. Henry further claimed that
03:08:43.520leaders of the camp were so impressed. Oh, sorry. Following his training, Henry claimed
03:08:47.540that he served the cult in various ways, including as a contract killer
03:08:51.360and as an abductor of children whom he delivered to a ranch in Mexico
03:08:55.600near Juarez. What Henry claimed essentially is that
03:08:59.320what appeared to be the random work of a serial killer was in fact a planned
03:09:03.300series of crimes often committed for specific purposes. Some of the
03:09:07.500murders were political hits according to Henry including assassinations
03:09:11.440of foreign dignitaries, local politicians and wealthy businessmen.
03:09:15.500This was not true for all of Henry's crimes. Some he did just because
03:09:19.500that's what he liked to do and it was the one thing he was really good at.
03:09:23.300The beauty of this arrangement was that it allowed Henry to conceal the true motive for many of his crimes.
03:09:29.040Now, read something like that, and it's interesting, but one part leaps out at you when he says,
03:09:35.880some of the murders were political hits according to Henry, including assassinations of foreign dignitaries, politicians, and wealthy businessmen.
03:09:42.100Did Henry Lee Lucas give the name of the foreign dignitary he killed?
03:09:47.000Because it's not easy to get away with that.
03:09:49.840was he shooting a fucking someone with like un diplomatic immunity who was that who was the
03:09:55.920local politician who was the wealthy businessman uh those names were not included he's just saying
03:10:01.280it and i find when people skirt those details i'm very suspicious you know one example that i always
03:10:09.100come back to years and years ago we had covered behold a pale horse by uh bill cooper oh yeah
03:10:15.920of the luminaries in the conspiracy theory sector and he's got a complicated past as well but um
03:10:23.040there's a lot about his life that is true and accurate but in one instance early on he's
03:10:28.800discussing his time in vietnam and he was in vietnam and it he was i think um on a gunner
03:10:35.840boat at one point and he describes uh engagement with the vietnamese and that's that's probably
03:10:42.400real enough sure okay whatever but then what he gets in the ufo stuff you know he's very very
03:10:48.500detailed about the engagements he was involved in but then once it gets the ufos like i heard
03:10:54.720stories about how there are entire villages that disappeared uh the entire villages the vietnamese
03:11:00.620just vanished we know and he's implying that it was ufos i said it's very interesting how you give
03:11:05.760zero details of that were these villages by the river what river were they near was it at an
03:11:11.900intersection how how many clicks was it away from you when you heard that you would tend to give
03:11:18.120those details just offhand if you weren't bullshitting especially if it's extraordinary
03:11:22.940you can tell me what color fucking shoes you were wearing as you're going down to Da Nang and a bunch
03:11:28.940of arrows start coming at you but you can't tell me any information about how a UFO disappeared a
03:11:35.920thousand Vietnamese randomly in the middle of the day you know so I'm highly skeptical when people
03:11:40.960make outlandish claims and they give zero details
03:16:58.880So what I think that means is I actually think Dave McGowan didn't fucking realize how important Dean Corll, John David Norman, and John Wayne Gacy are to his argument.
03:17:11.720I don't think he realized that those guys proved his argument.
03:18:00.880That's why I'm having you on to talk about it.
03:18:02.480So the last lines in Eye of the Chicken Hawk, I'm convinced that John David Norman was an intelligence asset.
03:18:08.260So who is John David Norman and why do we have to talk about this guy who's never been accused of being a serial killer when we're trying to prove Dave McGowan correct?
03:18:21.180Well, John David Norman, I hate to call him prolific, but he's a couple...
03:20:00.500And just to build, I'm going to throw a bunch of terminology at people here.
03:20:03.420but there's this thing called graph theory and it was uh described by niall ferguson in this
03:20:10.120interesting book you can find interviews with him about this but called the square in the tower
03:20:13.780graph theory it seeks to map out relationships across time and shows how groups interact
03:20:20.440and uh very frequently i would say this is the standard throughout human history groups tend
03:20:27.020to be insular and they don't really connect with each other and even in revolutionary groups or
03:20:32.420another example would be the european enlightenment um it was not this lateral open communication
03:20:39.780between individuals it was clustered geographically and also intellectually but it was reliant and you
03:20:45.420can map these like on a graph with nodes over here nodes in different areas and communications
03:20:51.980facilitated through what we call power nodes and these are individuals uh and they're all
03:20:57.800throat history who just tend to move between groups and ferry communication and build
03:21:03.760relationships with everyone so one example that would be paul revere in the american revolution
03:21:09.780he was he's infamous for that where he was the guy that everyone knew and he would get people
03:21:16.300to communicate who probably didn't even like each other but that's the whole reason these movements
03:21:21.400can ever happen so the dark side of that this is well a really good way to fucking explain this guy
03:21:27.440dude yeah so John like he yeah sort of like this power node between these
03:21:33.380international groups of child sex abuse producers and he's moving he's meeting
03:21:41.060people he's copping on planes he's trying to just bring everyone together
03:21:45.380or connect everyone together because you got connections in Thailand you got
03:21:49.640connections in Belgium like these hotspots for child sex trafficking
03:21:55.100everyone knows them you know you fucking hear anyone who goes any guy who goes on a trip to
03:22:00.460the philippines by himself you know so he's can i can i jump in and say by the way belgium
03:22:05.500why is belgium important mark dutro who we're going to get to was in brussels in like 1996
03:22:15.760what's what meets in brussels the eu is headquartered there exactly we now know
03:22:25.840from the panama papers that meetings like meetings of big like foreign dignitaries and
03:22:34.680foreign representatives like international meetings like the world cup where like lots
03:22:39.600of people come from all over the world are huge hubs of sex trafficking so we know that like
03:22:48.460the nfl the world cup and all these other things like there's lots of sex why wouldn't like the
03:22:54.220meetings of the eu also have the same thing i know that like in state capitals where state
03:23:00.280representatives meet when they're like state congresses in session those are hubs of sex
03:23:06.700trafficking and like prostitutes like put themselves up in hotels because representatives
03:23:12.060from all over the state show up at the capitol prostitutes put themselves up in hotels just for
03:23:17.040that period of time and uh you know they they cater to the politicians yeah that's what mark
03:23:23.400was doing and just same thing with epstein same thing with all these like epstein was kind of a
03:23:28.320power note in that sense and just it sounds cooler than it is i don't it's a power note yeah
03:23:33.860no but you have to think about like especially if you're dealing internationally if you've got
03:23:39.980the eu or you've got the un you're dealing with foreign dignitaries where the age of consent
03:23:45.900is negative one like you're dealing with people who actually don't believe in consent or an age
03:23:53.660of consent or anything like that so yeah everyone in their countries fucking 10 year olds and then
03:23:57.920they take hop on a flight to america and you got to impress them because they got a contract you
03:24:04.620want that you gotta sign it's like oh what someone's gonna make that guy happy yeah well
03:24:10.080of course that happens you just mentioned belgium so i want to throw that in but now this stuff
03:24:15.140you're talking about about like oh uh we got all these different politicians coming and this guy
03:24:20.620likes 10 year olds and this guy likes boys and this guy likes women and da da da da this guy
03:24:26.400john david norman is known to have been caught with postcards or index cards on numerous occasions
03:24:33.680separated by years in in in different states with whole different caches of index cards
03:24:42.640with exactly what dimes is telling you oh this politician named so and so likes uh 10 year old
03:24:49.680boys with blonde hair this and not everybody on the index card was a politician so i can't read
03:24:54.640that part i'm gonna read that yeah go for it man go for it yeah i i'm sorry i hope i'm not getting
03:24:58.480ahead of like what you were trying to lay out no no no that's perfect you're we're doing very good
03:25:03.140i think we're actually complimenting each other quite well here um but i know i forget these
03:25:08.300things that's why sometimes i interject i'm like i know i'm gonna yeah anything you want to read
03:25:12.960though reading from the book is always welcome because i never do that but it should be done
03:25:17.100more here we go acting on information police in dallas arrested a 45 year old man named john
03:25:22.920David Norman founded the address in the company of five teenage boys from the apartment, police seized photographic equipment, child pornography, and enough publishing stationery files and literature to fill an entire van, all pertaining to an organization called the Odyssey Foundation.
03:25:38.900And the word odyssey will pop up a lot throughout the book.
03:25:43.380Among the file C's were thousands of index cards with the names and addresses of clients around the country, some of them prominent people, and some federal employees in Washington.
03:25:54.120The foundation had been set up to ostensibly operate as a nonprofit mentorship program, which paired adult sponsors with boy fellows for interstate educational trips.
03:26:05.060Among the file C's from Norman's apartment were photos and descriptions of available boys, of which four had the word kill written on them.
03:26:14.180And discovery of kill photographs in Dallas may raise an eyebrow, but what happened to the Odyssey Network client cards remains both.
03:26:21.220These would be handed over to Henry Kissinger's State Department and subsequently destroyed.
03:26:26.240Now, I don't know the details on the destruction of these, but this is part of a pattern where a lot of this evidence goes missing or is ignored completely.
03:26:40.220He doesn't know, he doesn't talk about this at all, but he talks a lot about things going missing, people being let out of prison, people being let out on early parole, people violating their parole and not going back into prison.
03:26:54.640so um this this like so these people destroying the index cards first of all i double check this
03:27:03.220and verified it in multiple sources this is like well known so this it's not just this guy saying
03:27:09.640this like this is like a real thing that happened all these index cards were destroyed and like you
03:27:14.960said it's a known thing here's another known thing that i didn't know was that barney frank
03:27:20.600who was apparently yeah fucking teenage boy and he's just he's around still isn't he oh he's still
03:27:26.740around but i even before i read this book and knew anything about this i had heard that he was
03:27:32.120basically like known to like having sex with teenage boys and like it sort of like didn't
03:27:38.500cost him anything you know so yeah but barney frank's name comes up in this so this guy what
03:27:43.460he's doing is providing men with boy child escorts, uh, in all these different states,
03:27:54.200some of these people being politicians. So obviously John David Norman's not the only
03:27:58.660person in history who's ever done this. Right. So let's move on to the next thing though.
03:28:03.760Uh, Dean Coral, because not only were they providing men with prostitutes,
03:28:12.120many well well so these organized sex trafficking networks in their totality they sex traffic like
03:28:20.860anything grown women teenage women any age john david norman specialized in underage boys so
03:28:28.460so he he only provided male children to homosexual men uh so but they also supposedly
03:28:40.940according to eye of the chicken hawk and according to dave mcgown but also according to some of the
03:28:48.220people at the time like the guys who worked with dean coral and john wayne gacy himself
03:28:53.260they were also supposedly involved in making snuff pornography that's true and we kind of
03:29:01.960we don't know if we can prove that that's and you know with the photographs in um
03:29:09.920the what we described of john dave norman's with kill written on them there's a way to interpret
03:29:15.880that where it's like oh just get rid of them but when we discussed dean coral i'm going to read
03:29:22.140another part here because i just think this summarizes it pretty well the case of dean
03:29:26.060coral here it it strikes at the lone wolf theory of serial killers because he was working with
03:29:34.500accomplices in the entire time um and i'm just i'm actually just going to read here it says
03:29:38.960um a bond upon being taken into custody in question wayne henley told police he knew of
03:29:45.200several missing teenagers dean coral had killed and buried in a nearby boat shed henley directed
03:29:51.020police to 4,500 Silver Bile, where Coral had rented a storage shed since 1970. Inside, they
03:29:58.600discovered two 10-pound bags of garden lime, a rake and a shovel, plastic bags full of teenage-sized
03:30:05.300boys' clothing, an envelope containing pornographic literature, and disturbed soil beneath some
03:30:11.020carpeting. A subsequent excavation of the site turned up the bodies of 17 boys, aged between 13
03:30:17.040and 19 who had been reporting missing over the past three years. While initially vague in the
03:30:21.860explanation he gave as to his relationship with Dean Corll and how he came to know about the
03:30:26.240mass grave, Wayne Henley eventually confessed to having helped torture, kill, and bury at least
03:30:31.400six of Corll's victims. Dean Corll was nicknamed the Candyman Killer, and the motive behind his
03:30:37.420murders was attributed to his modus operandi as a serial killer, which is to say the motive was
03:30:42.880looked for in the pathology of a single killer. Both teenagers independently say Dean Corll told
03:30:48.020them he was part of an organization based in Dallas, which bought and sold boys and other
03:30:53.300members of this organization were also murdering them. So Dean Corll is a great example of,
03:31:00.280and this is almost like a one-to-one comparison to John Wayne Gacy, where you've got this central
03:31:08.900figure and his helpers, his accomplices, and you wonder, well, how do they fit into the larger
03:31:15.200syndicate? Well, this is kind of how it works. You've got one guy who procures. You're one guy
03:31:21.080who does the wet work of this. And he does that in service of whoever pays some money, but he
03:31:26.560probably only talks to one other person. And this is how most organizations are run. Like if you're
03:31:31.940a freelancer, you don't speak to the CEO every day. You probably speak to just one other person
03:31:36.560And then maybe you get some helpers. But that's about it. So all you know, is that my job is to get either real live people to abduct them, and sell them, or to kill them or to create snuff pornography for paying customers. And there's different levels, there's different things that you're asked to, you know, provide. But that's it. And that's, I think this is a pretty clear cut case of that.
03:32:05.680Unless we want to say everyone's a liar, but that's sort of what John Wayne Gacy was known for.
03:32:10.260He was found with, what was it, 35 bodies underneath his house?
03:32:47.540Yeah, I mean, there's some implication that cartels are involved in this, but I think it's beyond the scope of our discussion.
03:32:53.980But McGowan does include it in the book, and cartels are involved, and MS-13 gangs, big international gangs are involved.
03:33:02.200because also in eye of the chicken hawk he's careful to stay at the start like what is a snuff
03:33:08.440film and he says um it's not just a video where someone is killed in it obviously it's not a lively
03:33:15.640video it's not just any sort of war pornography where someone's getting their head cut off
03:33:20.680he is i think i believe he defines snuff film as it's someone who's killed purposefully on camera
03:33:26.760usually for sexual gratification but for a paying client and I think that is an important part of
03:33:33.480it that it needs to be for a specific audience and it needs to be commissioned so I think that's
03:33:40.240right I think that's a narrower definition that helps people understand it and he makes a point
03:33:44.540in the book I don't know if this is true but it would make sense I said this is why it's so hard
03:33:49.420for government agencies to entrap people with having these because every single snuff film
03:33:55.720would be made to order for one person so if you wanted to get proof that they're producing this
03:34:02.480you would need to commission one yourself which would lead directly to the death of an individual
03:34:07.600so you rather need to hope that you find one but you can't just order it and bust them afterwards
03:34:13.520because you're you're committing that atrocity and the argument i think is that like okay so if
03:34:21.560they have these index cards that they're getting rid of if they ever did find the snuff proof of
03:34:28.000it like a snuff a real snuff film they got rid of that too uh so here here's like the setup so
03:34:34.280dean coral was in texas and they found 17 people in his boat shed and then they found another six
03:34:41.880like buried in like a beach nearby uh so he was the biggest mass killer before gacy dean coral had
03:34:50.76023 bodies but who knows how many others that they didn't find out about and he had accomplices and
03:34:57.440the reason why we know that is because one of his accomplices killed him and then called the police
03:35:02.140and turned himself in and they actually found him not guilty of the homicide of killing coral
03:35:07.660because it was they deemed it self-defense but he still did life in prison for other murders that
03:35:12.340helped coral commit and basically like mcgowan's thing is like oh these killers are these
03:35:20.340programmed mk ultra assassins but dean coral kind of proves like what's actually going on
03:35:29.280is that you have a guy like coral who's an absolute fucking sadistic pedophile who's like
03:35:36.440raping all these young boys and he somehow gets connected to this network that is connected to
03:35:42.400john david norman which he probably got connected to him through like perusing and patronizing his
03:35:53.920business like he probably had norman traffic kids to him and then he starts killing them
03:36:04.040And according to his accomplices, which another one came forward as well, because the second accomplice came forward and that's how they found the bodies on the beach, because this other guy was like, hey, I was also helping him kill these kids.
03:36:16.040And basically what these two accomplices would do would be like, because they were young as well, they would go out into the neighborhood or into the village, the town that they lived in and say, hey, like, come over to our house.
03:36:28.260we got weed we have alcohol and then they go there and dean coral was there and then like you
03:36:32.560know dean coral would rape them for like three days and then kill them so the connection to
03:36:39.400john david norman proves that there was more going on than just dean coral satiation of his like sick
03:36:46.920proclivities he was also involved in this like uh trafficking network that was producing pornography
03:36:52.780because that was the argument they were making pornography and like why are you killing these
03:36:56.440kids like oh we were making these snuff films right and um but it's well i mentioned that you
03:37:03.900mentioned the cartels and i said yeah the cartels are involved and i threw out ms 13 like it's well
03:37:08.840known that part of the tactics that drug dealers uh excuse me drug cartels employ and ms 13 employs
03:37:16.240this is like they'll kidnap women and bring them to these parties at these haciendas and they'll be
03:37:23.760like these big parties that the drug kingpins will throw and they'll have these big orgies
03:37:29.300and the cartels themselves are also sometimes involved in pornography production and they
03:37:35.720basically have these women and young girls and a lot of it's pedophilia that they've that they've
03:37:40.400kidnapped and then they let them go and one of the stories like uh ms-13 was uh active in um
03:37:48.780long island and they would target uh illegal immigrants families and they would take these
03:37:56.740girls and then they would say they would let them go and they would say uh you know if you
03:38:01.740turn us in we're going to report your entire family to ice we're going to give you all your
03:38:06.820whole family deported so then all of a sudden you have this girl that you can go to like every
03:38:11.700weekend you know this is also what epstein would do by the way he would recruit these girls that
03:38:17.620like would come back i've seen would pay them whereas the gangs would like uh but sometimes
03:38:22.760they would they would get these girls hooked on drugs they would turn them into regular prostitutes
03:38:27.340um you know ms-13 started killing a couple two or three of them ended up dead and ms the ms-13
03:38:33.920members got caught but and the cartels would do the same thing they would kill them they would uh
03:38:40.080what's that city did you say it was ciudad juarez i think yeah mitcher juarez yeah they would uh
03:38:47.340And abduct them, take them to these parties, subject them to these orgies, these gangbangs, and then they'd kill them. And then the next weekend they'd do it again. They'd do it again. And in Mexico, they thought they had a serial killer on their hands. And it turned out it was no, it was the cartels doing this. This is exactly what Dean Corll was doing. This is exactly what he was doing.
03:39:05.320and john wayne gacy there's strong evidence that he was doing the same exact thing and it's like
03:39:13.280why do you have to kill so many people and the argument of the zero killer profile is like well
03:39:21.880it's sexual gratification so every time you have sex you also kill the person so obviously you have
03:39:28.440to do it over and over and over and over and over again uh but these guys are making the argument
03:39:33.060that no they're being killed either to keep them quiet because they're being used in the production
03:39:37.480of pornography or kill them in the production of snuff porn yeah if you look at the criminal
03:39:42.820profile of a serial killer it's that this person is sick but they're also irrational whereas this
03:39:50.660model says they are sick obviously because they're killing people and raping people but they're also
03:39:55.900rational so if you're a halfway intelligent irrational person say you know what dang i love
03:40:01.760raping boys. Now, what can I do to limit my exposure here? Well, I'll probably get a couple
03:40:08.040of them and rape them into being my accomplices. And then I'm going to get a lot of friends who
03:40:13.360are pretty good at getting away with this, right? Like if you are a rational person,
03:40:17.280you would necessarily begin to branch out and network and figure out a way to facilitate this
03:40:24.220lifestyle. And the whole case being made here is that there is a very large network they can get
03:40:31.000connected to with a lot of money and influence that can protect them and maybe they get wind of
03:40:36.640this through just networking or through jail or something like that and i think they get into it
03:40:43.180knowing that they will be the fall guys i think that they know that look we're just the contractors
03:40:48.320we're doing the dirty work so that you know the politicians aren't well and that's the thing like
03:40:54.600dean coral and john wayne gacy they actually are pedophiles so they're easy to exploit in this way
03:41:00.200exactly and like they're not even thinking rationally like oh i have a source of young
03:41:05.300they're going to be funneling me young boys like for as long as i want yeah and that was the case
03:41:11.100of maybe we'll get to this guy but maybe we went on time because there's so much to talk about but
03:41:15.300mark detrue yeah well okay let's we can end on him because we're running out of time why don't
03:41:20.060we just end on him because well let me let me actually say just to give an example what i'm
03:41:25.120talking about about um because we've talked about the individuals we talked about the government but
03:41:29.300I sort of mentioned Jimmy Savo, but I also want to express how this connects to the highest levels of government.
03:41:45.840In June 1982, Metropolitan Police raided a suburban terrorist townhouse suspected of operating an illegal brothel on a residential street in central London.
03:43:50.220And that was the whole thing with Jimmy Savile.
03:43:52.680He's helping facilitate this stuff, too.
03:43:54.500One of the most wealthy and well-known guys.
03:43:56.460I think he doesn't have properties all throughout London and elsewhere for this stuff.
03:44:03.520You don't need a lot to get this sort of thing done.
03:44:08.220Now, Mark Dutroux is an interesting case.
03:44:11.320And the reason I like him was because, first of all, he's infamous, so a lot of people know this case.
03:44:17.100But it's interesting to me because here's a guy who's charged with kidnapping and murder, but he had no real source of income, but he owned a couple of cars and lived in a big house.
03:44:29.820So something screaming at you like, how the fuck is this guy getting his money?
03:44:35.020And this is another case, just like with John Wayne Gacy, where it seems that he was being paid by someone for abductions.
03:44:43.300and part of it was him killing people but it's just part of a larger pattern of individual who
03:44:49.460works with a team and is employed by someone else and you know the the serial killer explanation
03:44:57.540that he's just an irrational animal overcome with fetishes yes the fetish and the sexual
03:45:03.620proclivity is part of it but it's much more complicated than that and much darker and
03:45:10.020And it almost my problem is the traditional narrative of these people almost makes them in the victims like they can't control themselves.
03:45:20.860They have these. It's just what they're into. And yes, it's bad and people die, but, you know, they're slaves to their impulses.
03:45:27.980And if you start portraying these people as very cunning and highly intelligent and manipulative, that it makes you just think that demons exist.
03:45:37.840like you look at pictures of dean coral there's nothing redeemable about this guy he is a cancer
03:45:44.000he cannot he's the exact opposite of a victim he's he's just a dark mass of sickness that just
03:45:52.160seeks to destroy and there's no communicating with him and some people i i think it's easier
03:45:58.800for people to understand individuals like that as hyper victims rather than what they are which is
03:46:04.560like evil manifest. And so with Mark Dutroux, there's this part here that I think summarizes
03:46:11.000as well. He says, Mark Dutroux was not a serial killer in any of the definitions provided by
03:46:15.680behavioral scientists. He was a profit-driven and rather marginal figure on the periphery of a
03:46:22.180particularly brutal sex trafficking network. The best place to start among the generally forgotten
03:46:27.460facts would probably be the fact that Dutroux somehow managed to accrue enough wealth as an
03:46:32.080unemployed electrician to own seven properties soon after his arrest it was revealed that he
03:46:37.460had around 10 bank accounts across europe and large sums had been transferred into and between
03:46:42.040these accounts over a period of 10 years and large lines of bank credit had been made available to
03:46:48.120him um so yeah i i gave you a lot of information there what do you think of mark to true did you
03:46:54.200want to jump in there no it's good it's good um he's a i want to say by the way that this book
03:47:04.720i think uh true detective season one is based on this book like for sure uh did you see it the show
03:47:12.800oh yeah i saw that a while ago and i've been watching i was actually watching clips of that
03:47:16.840as recently as this afternoon something was drawing me back towards it yeah so i see dean
03:47:24.600coral mark dutro and um uh uh john wayne gacy as like the main antagonist in that movie uh in that
03:47:37.020like he they aren't like the kingpin they aren't like the people who work on the inside like with
03:47:44.900the government so like epstein epstein was like flying around on private jets and he was connected
03:47:51.880to all these people and he was like living in a mansion and he was like up in the world with the
03:47:56.540politicians he you you can't really equate these guys to epstein dutro was closest to epstein out
03:48:04.980of the three that we're talking about yeah and just to go back to the power node analogy my
03:48:09.860sense is that epstein thought because in a graph theory there's nodes and edges the edges of the
03:48:15.840connections that the lines in the graph i think in the back of his mind he thought he was untouchable
03:48:20.260because he had so many edges he had so many who who could get rid of him he just knows everyone
03:48:25.920yeah i mean clinton was at his house all the time yeah i bet he was actually flabbergasted like what
03:48:31.160you would think that someone like him you'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop oh yeah yeah
03:48:35.700yeah i know what you're saying but i don't think he did i think he thought he was untouchable
03:48:39.320whereas with the dean corals of the world i'm like you guys gotta know that you're getting
03:48:44.100paid all this is getting blamed on you and this goes into the even the atlanta child murders and
03:48:49.560all these other cases yeah i don't know much about the atlanta child murders but what i'm saying is
03:48:54.260like the bad guy at the end that the two guys fight at true true detective like that's mark
03:49:00.620dutro that's dean coral that's john wayne gacy and the guys who are at the meth house that they
03:49:06.280kill where the kids are being held in the trailer those are like their accomplices you know and
03:49:11.280they're basically you have to think of a guy like mark dutro as a gangster basically like
03:49:17.440they're organized crime and john wayne gacy has to be thought of as like a hitman uh you know
03:49:22.880what i'm saying like they're not independent actors mark dutro mark dutro was just a criminal
03:49:29.400like a lifelong criminal in and out of prison and you have to think of him you can't think of him
03:49:35.980i mean i'm really just agreeing with what you just said like you can't think of him as this
03:49:41.440perverted pedophile you have to think of him as a gangster like running a criminal organization
03:49:47.080yeah but i love the word but yeah but he's not that he's not john gottie though is what i'm
03:49:53.760saying these guys are like sammy the bull you know what i'm saying yeah well i'm saying like
03:49:57.380most gangsters are actually just fucking retards a lot of them are just illiterate goombas like
03:50:02.260Yeah, they're only where they are because they fucking kill anyone.
03:50:19.820Oh, and that's the other thing I wanted to say.
03:50:21.620Like, when you think about these guys as, like, gangsters, like, the dudes in the Armani suits driving the Mercedes Benz wearing Rolexes in the Italian mob,
03:50:30.820Like they don't get there cause they're savvy businessmen.
03:50:33.860They don't get there cause they know how to like wine and dine people and
03:51:00.320Like, you be my assassin and you'll live the high life.
03:51:05.060Well, John Wayne Gacy had a good business.
03:51:07.720John Wayne Gacy was financially independent, but he was a pervert.
03:51:11.540And the way I see it is that it was like, okay, if you want to satiate your homosexual desires and your murderous proclivities, like, we will flow you, the boys, and you rape them and murder them for us.
03:51:25.700and i guess because of keeping time in mind i'm gonna have this there has to be a part two i'm
03:51:31.880gonna have to follow this up uh well because there's also a bunch of cia stuff we could talk
03:51:37.300i know like and this is the thing about this that we've been touching on throughout this
03:51:42.600and everything that the more you look into this the more spider webs out the more touches everything
03:51:48.880It would be more calming to believe that these were just aberrations, one-off cases where there's a serial killer and a guy went crazy and it's just a bad guy.
03:52:01.540And we got him and now he's gone, just like Epstein.
03:52:04.120But if you see the pattern, if you know that this is a void that's being filled that the marketplace demands.