Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - When Medicine Crosses the Line： China's Organ Harvesting Crisis

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00:00:30.000 For more than two decades, the Chinese Communist Party has run what investigators call an

00:00:39.760 industrial-scale, on-demand organ harvesting system, a business. And who is the primary

00:00:46.580 inventory? It's prisoners. These are healthy, young people. They're matched by their blood

00:00:52.820 type, and then they're killed to order by the recipient so their organs can be sold.

00:00:57.840 My guest today is Jan Yekelek, who is a senior editor at the Epoch Times and the author of a new book called Killed to Order, China's Organ Harvesting Industry and the True Nature of America's Biggest Adversary. 0.56

00:01:08.540 If you've ever wondered what the Chinese Communist Party is really capable of or why Western silence on this issue should terrify us, then today's interview is for you.

00:01:18.420 well jan thank you for joining the riley gain show i will tell you i am amped to talk with you

00:01:25.620 because i just read your new book um and the discussion that you've been having for for far

00:01:30.860 longer than i've been aware that this is even happening is in the news even this week so for

00:01:36.200 listeners who haven't yet heard of forced organ harvesting can you kind of just give us a brief

00:01:42.160 background you know maybe start from the beginning what exactly is happening especially in china

00:01:47.580 and how is it different from legitimate organ donation anywhere else in the world?

00:01:52.820 Well, let me lay it out for you.

00:01:54.780 There's a few key pieces to understand.

00:01:57.520 What's happening in China, in a way, is the exact reverse of what happens in an ethical system like we have in the U.S.

00:02:04.040 And frankly, even in ethical systems, there's issues.

00:02:07.180 We recently had Bobby Kennedy decertifying a whole transplant system in Kentucky because of violations.

00:02:14.400 And we can get into that as well.

00:02:15.640 But let's just start with what it looks like in an ethical system, right? Let's say I need a new heart, okay? Someone needs to basically have a catastrophic accident, and that's typically motorcycle or car accident. And then what happens is they have to be a specific kind of accident, because if the circulation stops in the body, we can't actually use those organs, because organs degrade very quickly.

00:02:38.360 so you have to kind of get the person quickly and they have to be dead an ethics team has to decide

00:02:43.620 that this person is not coming back this is where the violations can happen in an ethical system

00:02:48.700 right when people are too quick to make that decision that yes this person isn't coming back

00:02:52.680 but they still actually have a chance so now the ethics team signs off on it and then still you

00:02:57.860 need someone to actually match the donor has to match blood type and tissue type histology

00:03:04.500 because our bodies reject foreign things and then size that matters too because you you can't put a

00:03:09.940 giant heart into a small body okay so all these things together it's very rare the supply is a

00:03:15.780 lot less than the demand there's this whole kind of field of people waiting for any given donor

00:03:20.320 that appears through an accident and then an algorithm is used to figure out who gets to the

00:03:24.820 top of the line that's in an ethical system okay in the chinese system well let me backtrack a tiny

00:03:30.700 bit there's a few things you need to understand how you get killed to order how do you get that

00:03:34.900 that's the title of my book how do you get that kind of forced organ harvesting uh at scale from

00:03:39.900 prisoners of conscience in china they have this long history of creating class enemies okay they 0.76

00:03:46.160 call them black classes they started with landowners right they wanted to seize all the 0.98

00:03:50.520 private property that people had and but it's hard to do that because there's a lot of people that 0.70

00:03:54.960 own it and those people have friends so what you do is you seize the information dissemination

00:04:00.680 tools and make them propaganda organs and you just push mass dehumanizing propaganda into the

00:04:07.160 system against that particular group of people so in this case it was the landowners that was the

00:04:11.840 first group they said that landowning is evil these landowners are dangerous you deserve to

00:04:16.740 take it back from them uh you should actually hold them in contempt even that kind of thing

00:04:21.580 okay so this is what they've become experts at this they started with landowners they did

00:04:26.420 rightists, they did intellectuals during the Cultural Revolution, students in 1989, Tiananmen

00:04:32.440 Square massacre time. And in 1999, this group called Falun Gong practitioners was the group

00:04:38.160 that they picked. They'd say, the dictator at the time says, we're going to eradicate this.

00:04:43.020 And now what happens is the Falun Gong practitioners probably become the first group 0.98

00:04:47.720 that actually actively resists being black classed at scale. Okay, so what, you know, 0.66

00:04:53.240 going back to the landowners if you were a landowner you could say hey actually yes private

00:04:58.560 property is evil you're right communist party thank you for emancipating me from this evil

00:05:03.120 thoughts of private property and if you did all that you supplicated yourself you might live 0.77

00:05:07.620 but if you didn't anything goes but the Falun Gong they basically resisted they said no we're

00:05:11.860 not evil people and you're not and nothing you can do will say that so they incarcerated them

00:05:16.480 and this is what sets up guilt to order because you have a group that's mass dehumanized on one

00:05:21.300 point and also mass incarcerated maybe a million maybe two million we don't know the exact number

00:05:27.400 of people and now what they do is they start blood typing tissue typing and organ scanning

00:05:32.480 these people in the system incarcerated people okay so if i now i'm let's say i'm this really

00:05:39.820 loose moral transplant tourist i need a heart i'm ready to get it any manner shape or form anyway

00:05:46.220 I can go pay my 100 or 200 grand and see my so-called donor is actually an innocent prisoner

00:05:52.980 of conscience. Because there's a million people or so that have been pre-typed, that perfect donor

00:05:59.960 for me that matches me perfectly already exists, and that person can be killed to order so that I

00:06:04.800 can live. That's the way, that's why it's the exact reverse of an ethical system. One recipient

00:06:10.160 appears, and there's this field of donors ready to basically have their lives taken to be murdered.

00:06:15.340 do the recipients get much of a choice in the approval process of the donor i mean the way

00:06:24.300 that that you just described it it's like you're going to go pick out a new pair of shoes and

00:06:30.220 there's all these shoes in the store and you get to pick out the pair that you want

00:06:33.200 is what role does the recipient have in this and they're totally complicit

00:06:38.300 in paying i mean as your book title is in in being involved in this killed to order process

00:06:45.180 What happens is really crazy situations like even, you know, not too long ago, back in 2020 in China, there was a scenario where a woman who had a rare immunological condition within the span of 10 days had four separate hearts delivered to her because for various reasons, the first three didn't work out.

00:07:06.240 And they were all these perfect match type scenarios. So you can imagine, right, that this system lends itself because you have this large pool of kind of an organ bank of living people, innocent people, you can actually do these kinds of excesses where multiple organs are available.

00:07:23.640 They had another example of a double lung transplant that they were going to do as a

00:07:29.700 demonstration, and then they had a full backup ready to go in case the first one didn't work

00:07:34.880 out already ahead of time.

00:07:36.740 And there's multiple examples of these kinds of cases, another one with eight kidneys back

00:07:40.960 in the day.

00:07:41.820 So it is a little bit like what you're describing, where you're picking up shoes, or David Kilgore,

00:07:46.760 one of the kind of big heroes of the research around this issue back in the day, he called

00:07:52.080 it like picking a lobster or something like that to be cooked right yeah it's horrifying now on the

00:07:58.800 business side of things because i mean this is it's it's an industry it's a business is there

00:08:04.040 like a standard price tag on specific organs like are there some organs that go for more and i guess

00:08:10.740 to in that vein what do you do if you have someone who needs a heart and they pick out

00:08:15.860 their donor what about the rest of the organs in that donor's body so in the or one of the

00:08:22.160 first pieces of evidence early on there were actually lists okay online where you could see

00:08:28.480 the price ranges so the kidneys were on the cheaper end they were 30 30 grand something like

00:08:34.160 that I'm remembering you know hearts were kind of in the 100 grand lungs in that livers maybe a

00:08:39.840 little bit cheaper double multiple transplants the price expanded and it just depended on the

00:08:45.440 hospital. But as soon as we revealed the fact that there were these online, you know, basically

00:08:50.980 hospitals advertising prices for various types of organs, and by the way, scheduled in two weeks as

00:08:56.840 well, right, that disappeared. So we don't know the exact pricing today, the prices seem to have

00:09:05.080 gone up. A number that I've heard recently for livers is about 400 grand. I mean, we're talking

00:09:10.800 very big money right and when you look at the scale are there many people over there who have

00:09:14.840 that kind of money or is this like more of like a high class high society type of luxury

00:09:22.120 this is absolutely for the super elites the vast vast majority of people in communist china have

00:09:28.400 no access in fact for most of them it'll exist kind of like an urban myth where you kind of hear

00:09:33.740 about it or in the prisons people say be good or we're going to harvest your organs that kind of

00:09:38.080 thing, but they could never, ever access that. Now, the super elites, that's a different question,

00:09:42.920 right? Because these people have more money than most people in this country, right? And I'm

00:09:48.240 talking about the billionaire class, right, as well, and millionaires for sure. It's a completely

00:09:54.920 different thing. Do you remember last year in September, there was, it's been dubbed the hot

00:10:00.360 mic moment with Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, and Kim Jong-un in Tiananmen Square. Chinese

00:10:06.780 central television has them miked reuters is broadcasting this and they get caught i'll

00:10:13.020 paraphrase the conversation but she says to putin when we're 70 we're just babies right and they're

00:10:19.420 both just over 70. putin responds and this is the mind-blowing thing he says yes through continual

00:10:25.340 organ transplantation perhaps we can achieve immortality right and then she responds our

00:10:30.860 our target's 150. We think we can get to 150 years. And that's actually, in fact, the target

00:10:36.520 of their elite longevity program. It's called Project 981. They say that people live 16 years

00:10:42.680 longer in that project. I don't know if that's a real number. You have to take every number out

00:10:46.120 of China with a big grain of salt. I think directionally it's right. But this revealed to 1.00

00:10:50.700 us that this forced organ harvesting is basically a centerpiece of this horrible elite longevity

00:10:57.080 program. And that if you're a Chinese super elite, basically you have unlimited on-demand access to 0.94

00:11:02.900 the perfect organs for you in perpetuity, right? So this is, you know, this is kind of beyond 1.00

00:11:08.240 the $9 billion estimated industry that this is. This is basically, you know, life for people that

00:11:15.340 don't mind having people killed to order for it. Holy moly. Okay. The second part of that question 0.91

00:11:20.940 when you, let's say again, you choose your donor who has your heart, what happens then at that

00:11:27.580 point to his liver and kidney? Where, is there a separate market for that?

00:11:34.300 So this is a great question. So we don't 100% know how it works because most of the people

00:11:41.880 who are actually surgeons who have participated in this were people who did it before it started

00:11:47.980 scaling into the large enterprise basically when they in car seat prior in 1998 there was actually

00:11:53.660 a congressional hearing about this that people we we know people have been killed for organs already

00:11:58.620 at that time but it was really this mass incarceration of the Falun Gong in the year

00:12:03.820 1999 through to 2000 that's when this mass growth of hospitals happens geometric growth okay so we

00:12:10.780 and and we don't have a lot we don't have people surgeons and sort of admitting to us you know

00:12:15.340 know what exactly what how how exactly this is happening if let's say if someone is killed to

00:12:20.280 order for that heart the likelihood you have another patient that's going to be the perfect

00:12:24.340 match for say the kidney or the liver is unlikely but if you can profuse the body using something

00:12:29.920 like an ecmo machine for several days that allows you to transplant multiple organs from a body

00:12:36.140 so that's what we believe that's why we believe that they have been you know had this mass run

00:12:41.900 on these portable ecmo machines but you know a lot of this you have to actually pull from inference

00:12:47.100 because we don't it's not like we have snapshots of like people being forced organ harvested right

00:12:52.220 the evidence is people calling in saying hey can you get organ can i get organs can i get

00:12:56.460 falun gong organs how long are the wait times right we actually there's an underground undercover

00:13:01.180 crew from south korea that went in uh in the 2010s and actually you know they people were ready to

00:13:08.060 sell them organs and they were ready to basically sell them organs that will get to them faster

00:13:13.900 for a surcharge i mean crazy thing we're talking about a few weeks right it's like amazon prime

00:13:18.780 but for organs it's uh it's a really extreme situation and again it's just it's so it sounds

00:13:25.340 like science fiction and i think it's really only today this is part of why i actually wrote the

00:13:30.540 book killed toward her right now uh 20 years on because i feel like people are finally ready

00:13:36.140 to accept that this is real that's been one of the hardest things do you feel like what you write

00:13:44.220 about what we're talking about now is just kind of a window into the true nature of the chinese

00:13:49.740 communist party that's that's exactly what i think and in fact it it it's sort of in a way

00:13:56.140 the more important part of the book killed to order uh because first of all if you can accept

00:14:02.700 that this is real, that people are being killed at scale to the tune of 60 to 90,000, 60 to 100,000

00:14:08.800 a year. I'm talking about not people, pardon me, organs, right? In the earlier days when you

00:14:14.140 couldn't do multiple organs from a body, it might have been people. Now it's unclear, right? Exactly.

00:14:20.280 But these are numbers for organs that we have. If you can accept that this is actually something

00:14:26.760 this regime does, it's absolutely done under the auspices of the regime. The military hospitals

00:14:31.740 are the kind of the network, the most common parts of the network, then, you know, how do you think

00:14:37.800 they think about us if they think about their own people that way? And I think this is something,

00:14:42.480 I think we've been incredibly naive with respect to the Chinese Communist Party. That has started 0.89

00:14:47.060 shifting in the last 10 years. I think we're probably the best off right now that we've ever

00:14:53.440 been. You know, we're not doing a lot of foreign direct investment in there. We know it's unlikely

00:14:57.920 where it's going to, you know, come back to us. But I still think we don't fully understand what

00:15:03.080 this regime is capable and how it really thinks of us and even its own people as kind of these

00:15:08.400 instruments, not as other human beings. People will say, like, I'm kind of putting my tinfoil

00:15:14.080 hat on here. But I think it's worth asking, how much of a concern is this happening in the future

00:15:21.480 here in the United States or something to the effect where they have almost like a new definition

00:15:28.300 of death? So one of the things I write about in Kill to Order, but also in some recent op-eds

00:15:36.020 that I've written is, you know, we had the, there was this myth that, and we knew this from the

00:15:40.860 beginning at Epoch Times, by the way, that we were going to change China into a democracy or

00:15:46.540 liberalize it through putting a lot of money in, kind of like what we did with Taiwan or Japan or

00:15:52.160 South Korea. But the Chinese Communist Party kind of pulled a fast one on us. They kind of knew

00:15:58.620 this idea of liberalization. They were deeply opposed to it because they saw the writing on

00:16:03.980 the wall that they would lose power. And so they had very sort of strict structures actually

00:16:09.900 preventing that from happening. So the effect was, you know, we were saying we're going to change you,

00:16:15.020 But by getting into these deep financial relationships, and frankly, medical relationships in the transplant industry, I mean, we have, we train some of the surgeons. We have financial partnerships of a variety of sorts. We fund research. There's some pretty famous research that we actually funded right at the Wuhan Institute of Technology.

00:16:35.340 Now we understand that that relationship was real, but absolutely in the transplantation space, we provide key technologies like ECMO and others and instruments and solutions that are used to do the transplantation.

00:16:49.340 We're deeply involved, right?

00:16:50.980 And so, and of course, our idea was we're changing them, but it's actually gone in the other direction.

00:16:56.200 And it's this, what you may have heard described as utilitarianism or utilitarian bioethics in the field of biology and medicine.

00:17:05.340 it's this sharp sharp shift from this idea of Hippocratic medicine where the innate dignity

00:17:11.460 of the human being is enshrined and as a medical professional I'm actually doing my best to help

00:17:17.420 that individual person and harm them the least and help them the most this utilitarian view is

00:17:24.380 if something is good for the population or for the greater good it's okay to sacrifice a few

00:17:30.120 right and so this mentality and I imagine in communism this is something that dawned on me

00:17:34.660 when I was writing the book, there's this famous maxim, right?

00:17:38.260 To make an omelet, you need to break a few eggs, okay?

00:17:42.660 So that's Stalin, typically ascribed to Stalin speaking.

00:17:46.160 Well, that's actually utilitarian bioethics personified

00:17:49.800 because the greatest good in a communist society

00:17:52.280 is the survival and supremacy of the Communist Party

00:17:55.820 or the Chinese Communist Party in China.

00:17:58.080 And so, like, you know, what do you need for that?

00:18:00.180 Well, we need for our elites to live as long as possible.

00:18:02.920 Do we need to take organs? 0.58

00:18:04.060 Why not? 0.90

00:18:04.560 Why don't we take them from the population? Right. Especially people that are known to be particularly healthy. 0.69

00:18:10.080 We saw where HHS secretary, of course, RFK Jr., he decertified Kentucky's organ procurement organization after investigators found that they repeatedly ignored signs of life inpatient schedule for organ removal.

00:18:23.480 What parallel there, I guess, do you draw with the system that you documented in China?

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00:18:33.780 Yeah, hey, who should I take in the Boston game?

00:18:36.140 Well, statistically speaking.

00:18:37.540 Nah, no more statistically speaking. 0.99

00:18:39.320 I want hot takes. 0.99

00:18:40.400 I want knee-jerk reactions.

00:18:42.000 That's not really what I do.

00:18:44.140 Is that because you don't have any knees?

00:18:46.320 Or...

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00:18:59.320 Well, so this is very much a case in point.

00:19:02.540 So what happens in that situation is they're basically, you remember that moment we're talking about in an unethical system, the ethics team comes and looks and says, hey, is this person really dead?

00:19:12.300 Can we transplant from this person?

00:19:14.320 And there's this tension there, right?

00:19:16.040 You have people that are sort of pro getting the organs and you have people that are more pro making sure that we're not killing someone by accident, right?

00:19:26.320 You can't be 100%.

00:19:28.780 This is because sometimes people are completely brain dead and everything.

00:19:32.360 They still come back. Right. So this is a tough decision to make. But what you know, there's been multiple op eds I've been reading in the past few years, one notably in The New York Times, where they're literally advocating for basically loosening that definition of death so it's easier to procure organs.

00:19:49.340 And that's a direct result of this exact engagement that we're talking about. Right. They go. But, you know, of course, in China is the extreme of that. Right.

00:19:57.440 Where literally, you know, if you're one of these black classes, one of these groups that deem to be a political enemy of the system, you're basically ready to be killed for organs. 0.97

00:20:07.780 That's not where we're at. 0.94

00:20:09.120 But that's the logical type of conclusion of utilitarian bioethics.

00:20:14.460 Because you just say, look, these people here, they're against us.

00:20:17.960 They're against the greater good.

00:20:20.240 Let's use them for the greater good.

00:20:22.200 Right.

00:20:22.360 and i'll never forget that new york times piece that you're referring to i saw it about a year

00:20:28.920 ago um right around this time a year ago and i was an organ donor like i you know took pride in it i

00:20:34.920 thought it made me like an upstanding citizen like i was willing to donate myself when i when i was

00:20:40.260 was long gone off off of this planet but that op-ed that you're referring to wasn't just written by

00:20:46.540 like a random Joe Blow reporter or journalist with the publication. No, it was written by three

00:20:53.820 transplant physicians. That's who published this piece. The piece title being donor organs are too

00:21:00.780 rare. We need a new definition of death. Ultimately, as you said, broadening the legal definition

00:21:06.320 of death to include irreversibly comatose patients who are still on life support.

00:21:11.540 but this piece had even suggested that once higher brain functions are gone, that the person

00:21:17.500 no longer really exists. It's just the body. Um, and so I think this is, it's really similar

00:21:24.040 to that, that logic that you're describing and kind of that blurred line, I guess, between what

00:21:29.620 China is doing and where these parts of Western medicine appear to be heading.

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00:22:53.300 cowboycolostrum.com slash Riley Gaines. In your research for this, did you have a hard time?

00:23:01.940 I know how you started the book was incredible because you start with a patient who describes

00:23:07.940 their experience did you have a hard time interviewing um recipients i guess like

00:23:14.880 was that something that was difficult to do and and to conduct so the answer is yes and but we

00:23:21.960 the truth is we don't have that many people who have actually gotten these organs who are willing

00:23:27.320 to speak about it right like most the most of the information we've gotten from them is basically

00:23:34.020 that it's a i was told it was a death row prisoner you know but there in most cases especially since

00:23:41.300 2006 that we've kind of opened up the this the reality of this it became it's gotten some media

00:23:47.940 attention right people are not very eager to say they've ever done this because in effect you know

00:23:53.940 i'll give you one crazy example right there's a book that was written in the year 2009

00:23:58.820 okay it's called larry's kidney it's a crazy story where this guy goes to china to get a kidney and

00:24:06.500 they they're told he goes with his cousin i think the cousin is the one who writes the book real

00:24:11.860 book right and they know that the organ is being procured in some sort of illicit way they they're

00:24:17.720 they're being told it's a death death row prisoner that's being used and they but they kind of feel

00:24:23.320 like maybe there's something else going on too and this is all written into the book and there's

00:24:27.660 actually a professor at I forget which university right now which has used this book as a case study

00:24:33.520 of a prosecution using existing statutes right because you know you're not supposed to you know

00:24:41.920 have people killed for your organs right kind of obviously right and there's lots of we actually

00:24:47.700 have a number of laws that are being looked at right now there's one in the senate it's not

00:24:52.540 about specifically outlawing organ translation. It has to do with sanctioning people that are

00:24:58.000 involved in stuff like that. But so there is action on this. But my point is that someone

00:25:03.520 revealing this, and very publicly in this book, I still think it's cosmic that this book exists

00:25:09.280 in the first place. But there's a compelling case that there are statutes exist to prosecute someone

00:25:15.420 for, you know, aiding and abetting and organ trafficking and worse.

00:25:20.100 Yeah. Actually, it was it was written in the foreword, I believe, where one of the doctors,

00:25:27.260 he says, and he writes this again as a physician, he says, you know, medicine without

00:25:32.320 consent is violence. What is it that should or what is it that medical professionals in the free

00:25:38.680 world be doing right now, maybe differently than than what they're doing to preserve,

00:25:44.500 again, ethical medical practices? The critical thing, and this really got hit home for me

00:25:52.140 as I was writing the book, right, is going back to the basics of Hippocratic medicine,

00:25:58.500 right? I think the whole view of utilitarian bioethics is a huge problem. You've heard the

00:26:04.760 term slippery slope. I've used many times, but it's exactly that because the moment that you

00:26:10.880 start saying that it's okay to sacrifice a few for the good of the many right in a normal situation

00:26:18.240 um it's a very you start on this very dark road and the dark road ends up somewhere like what you

00:26:24.080 see in communist china but so i'll give you an example okay this is so there are scenarios where

00:26:29.280 you have to kind of play god right and choose who lives and dies on the battlefield okay you know

00:26:34.720 you've seen in the movies where people are kind of putting an x on the forehead i'm not taking this

00:26:39.600 person i'm taking this person you're a battlefield medic you have to make hard decisions because you

00:26:43.760 have to figure out who gets on the on the chopper or whatever right and and that's so you're then

00:26:48.320 and you're actually playing god because you don't know if you're making the right decision you're

00:26:51.680 just doing the best you can in the circumstances but that is not our normal life okay that is not

00:26:57.040 how things work normally normally a medical practitioner should look at each person at the

00:27:03.840 as a complete individual and think to themselves, if I even do an intervention, how can I make sure

00:27:10.460 that I cause the least amount of harm with that intervention? And then medicine being an aggregate

00:27:16.100 of professionals working this way. I think that us deviating from this has caused a vast amount

00:27:24.720 of harm. Yeah, on this issue, of course, but even look at things like, as it pertains to the gender 0.90

00:27:32.100 ideology movement and how you're seeing surgeons or healthcare providers or therapists recommend

00:27:38.220 these children in some cases. I mean, as young as what, like nine, 10, 11 years old, not only are

00:27:45.020 they being prescribed unnatural chemicals and substances to inject themselves with, but in some

00:27:50.200 cases cutting off healthy functioning body parts. Like the Hippocratic Oath and its first rule is

00:27:57.680 is do no harm that is absolutely violated uh in in both of these cases um and i think i you know

00:28:05.260 it's hard to say what's more sinister than the other um but i recognize both as violating that

00:28:11.180 oath um i guess you're ordinary person i feel like i should just kind of ask point blank and

00:28:17.360 it's something that i've asked myself as i mentioned i was an organ donor should we be

00:28:22.180 organ donors? Is there concern there? Because again, I love the thought of helping someone

00:28:30.040 even in death. It sounds amazing, but do I think it's as amazing if it means maybe they won't try

00:28:35.600 as hard to save me? All right, you guys, I know that electrolyte brands are everywhere right now,

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00:29:39.020 video description. You can scan the QR code on your screen, or you can check the pin comment.

00:29:43.260 so i'll ask you point blank as someone who has you know background and understanding on this issue

00:29:49.740 should we check yes when we go to the dmv and ask us if we want to be an organ donor

00:29:54.480 so you're you're putting me on the spot here because i i generally don't like to make you

00:29:59.480 know kind of broad pronouncements that maybe you know huge amounts of people can see right or kind

00:30:05.420 of are are impacted by um okay i'll rephrase are you an organ donor well so that's so that's

00:30:13.240 that's a great i i've reconsidered um for a whole variety of reasons but to be it's not you can be

00:30:20.200 an organ donor it's one thing to decide to click to check the check mark right it's another thing

00:30:26.840 to be an organ donor like your spouse can say yes this your your my husband is ready to be that organ

00:30:35.560 donor that right see this again this is the problem this is the challenge with this with the question

00:30:41.880 that you're asking me. So in order to procure organs, you need to get them quickly, right? And

00:30:48.100 the whole idea, I think it was a very well-intentioned idea, is to be able to check

00:30:52.780 a driver's license and be able to, and then, you know, those organs are available quickly when that

00:30:58.020 correct type of accident happens. The problem is when the system gets confused or corrupted,

00:31:05.380 or, you know, doctors don't really know what they're doing, or they're kind of wooed by this

00:31:09.960 utilitarian bioethical view of the world and you end up getting these sorts of situations like you

00:31:15.720 have in Kentucky and so forth right so I think the key in order to be let me answer it this way

00:31:23.460 in order to get the trust of you know society back around being able to check that uh uh on your

00:31:31.780 driver's license card I think that the system needs to you know make a stand against this

00:31:38.100 utilitarian view and if every doctor understands that their key priority is the life of that

00:31:45.720 individual person right of that person that person is the priority even the donor right their life

00:31:51.180 is but if their life really is extinguished of course organ transplantation is a life-saving

00:31:57.280 amazing thing that i hope happens whenever it's legitimately possible to do so um is there any

00:32:05.840 expected recourse in china like where do things stand currently i mean is there any reason why

00:32:12.980 we should believe that they won't continue doing this and i guess to that point kind of final thing

00:32:18.420 for you is what can we do we talked about what medical professionals can do but what about your

00:32:24.560 just ordinary person um to kind of combat of course what's happening there but again to prevent

00:32:29.680 it from happening here there's some legislation you could call your senator and say hey s 4009

00:32:37.600 okay that's a the felon gong and victims of forced organ harvesting protection act it's actually been

00:32:43.520 marked up in committee it's ready to be voted on all it needs to do is be put to a vote i don't

00:32:47.900 see a lot of people voting against this one okay and uh and it'll make a real difference it'll safe

00:32:53.100 it'll save some lives it's the beginnings of something there's six states that have passed

00:32:57.300 laws call your states you know if i i don't remember them off the top of my head right now

00:33:03.580 but there's 44 states that need to have these laws and there's great moral uh model legislation

00:33:09.120 out there for it and even if you're not into all of that political stuff there's actually a rotary

00:33:13.820 club called the enforced organ harvesting rotary clubs if you're not like a big activist ready to

00:33:19.380 go out do stuff you can basically participate with rotary and they're what they're doing is

00:33:24.000 they're raising this awareness. They're showing films in local areas. It's become a big operation.

00:33:28.740 I've actually become a Rotarian because of their enthusiasm and using Kill to Order as a

00:33:33.180 as an educational tool. They got into this. So they invited me in and I'm in because

00:33:37.200 it's a way that that we can help other people at a grassroots level get involved.

00:33:43.040 Is there a part of you that feels fearful in reporting on this and talking about this?

00:33:47.900 you know a little bit but for I mean the first thing is you know who else is going to do it I

00:33:57.020 guess that's the that's the first question you have to ask I actually truly think this is

00:34:01.480 incredibly important right so you I feel like you kind of have to but something that a lot of people

00:34:07.460 don't understand is that people who are ethnically Chinese or from some of the minority groups that

00:34:14.300 live within the borders of today's china see the regime treats them as kind of like they own them

00:34:21.820 and there's even laws that kind of reflect this if you will okay and so people in that boat and

00:34:27.980 i work with some of the best chinese people in the world who are you know standing up to this regime

00:34:32.540 in various ways okay those people are at much greater risk every one of them than i am so i

00:34:39.340 I feel like particularly motivated to do my part because I'm not,

00:34:43.620 of course, they're not thrilled with, you know,

00:34:45.840 there have been incidents, there have been issues.

00:34:48.580 They're not thrilled with the fact that I,

00:34:50.400 that this has become a New York Times bestseller, for example.

00:34:52.880 I think that's astonishing and it really does show a shift in the social

00:34:57.280 consciousness that I want to keep going, right, that I want to perpetuate.

00:35:01.840 But I, so the really, the real threat of this,

00:35:04.740 what we call transnational repression in the human rights space is really

00:35:08.960 against the Chinese nationals

00:35:11.060 or some of these various minorities

00:35:12.880 that come from China

00:35:13.700 that they have this particular ire against them

00:35:16.580 because like, how come you're not following the line, right?

00:35:20.980 And so, yeah, I just feel I need to do my part.

00:35:38.960 Not really what I do.

00:35:40.660 Is that because you don't have any knees?

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00:37:11.480 Riley from the Riley Gaines show sent you well god bless you and again it might sound to some

00:37:18.560 as if it's like a this far-fetched concept or we don't have to worry about it over here and that's

00:37:23.100 happening over there and that's them we're us um again the gender stuff physician assisted suicide

00:37:28.560 i think is one of the most evil practices that you could see we're seeing in places like

00:37:33.680 um new york and in canada you can like be euthanized essentially if you have seasonal

00:37:39.060 depression like it's crazy crazy stuff so it might sound outlandish if you allow the veil

00:37:45.200 to stay down but once it's lifted uh you really see it all for what it is and jan thank you for

00:37:50.340 exposing it and documenting it so we don't have to go to china and do it ourselves um god bless

00:37:56.240 you thank you riley thanks so much thank you guys for watching the riley gain show you can subscribe

00:38:03.380 right here we have new episodes every single tuesday and friday at 10 a.m eastern time and

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00:38:13.240 all of that and more we want to hear from you though what is it that you want to hear comment

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Gaines for Girls with Riley Gaines - September 15, 2026

When Medicine Crosses the Line： China's Organ Harvesting Crisis

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