Louder with Crowder - Biological Males Should Not Compete in Women's Sports (Part 1) | Change My Mind

00:00:00.000 I think it is harmful for the trans athletes to be told, like, if they identify as male, that they are not.

00:00:07.000 Yeah.

00:00:07.000 Um, and so I see that... Wow, you just said male.

00:00:10.000 Uh-huh.

00:00:10.000 That's sex, that's not gender.

00:00:12.000 Oh, sorry, whatever is the gender term. 1.00

00:00:14.000 No, you can't keep it straight, can you? 0.91

00:00:15.000 I mean, it's, I will... Because it's silly. 0.96

00:00:17.000 It's a little silly, isn't it? 0.94

00:00:19.000 No.

00:00:22.000 It's time for another installment of Change My Mind, the series where we rationalize our positions on controversial topics.

00:00:29.000 Now, today's subject is a hot one in the news lately.

00:00:34.000 Biological males in women's sports. 1.00

00:00:38.000 A Victoria woman who won a world championship in master cycling has been hit with a wave of backlash because she is transgender.

00:00:45.000 New Zealand has chosen the first transgender athlete to compete at its Olympic Games.

00:00:50.000 It's also reignited a debate with critics who say it's unfair.

00:00:53.000 Transgender swimmer Leah Thomas breaking barriers and records.

00:00:57.000 Sports Illustrated calls the college senior the most controversial athlete in America.

00:01:02.000 The beauty of Change My Mind is that almost invariably, productive dialogue takes place and people generally leave feeling better than they came, which is exactly what happened here.

00:01:11.000 But not everyone from the tolerant activists left was so happy about, you know, conversation.

00:01:20.000 What's the message of radical trans liberation at work?

00:01:34.000 What does it mean?

00:01:35.000 I'm not here to talk to you, Steven.

00:01:37.000 No?

00:01:37.000 No one?

00:01:37.000 Radical trans-liberation now?

00:01:39.000 Look!

00:01:46.000 I'm slightly chocolaty.

00:01:57.000 This one's still a mystery to me.

00:01:59.000 We're still trying to identify the gender.

00:02:01.000 Is it male?

00:02:02.000 Female? 0.98

00:02:03.000 Z-male? 0.98

00:02:03.000 Trigender? 0.98

00:02:04.000 Either way, I was greatly inconvenienced.

00:02:06.000 If you figure it out, comment below.

00:02:07.000 The point is, some people just don't know how to use their words.

00:02:11.000 Unlike this person, Isaac, with whom I had a conversation that, uh...

00:02:16.000 Was a little more productive.

00:02:17.000 Isaac, Stephen, nice to meet you.

00:02:19.000 Nice to meet you.

00:02:20.000 So, Isaac, I don't know, I know you said you've watched the show.

00:02:22.000 Yes.

00:02:23.000 Okay.

00:02:24.000 So I don't know how familiar you are, kind of, with this, but the idea is that we, you know, sit down with people, hopefully where it's a rational discussion, on what are sort of controversial topics.

00:02:34.000 And often people have rational discussions, you know, on topics that are, oh, okay.

00:02:38.000 It's easy to have a rational discussion or it's easy to rationalize your position.

00:02:41.000 The second it gets into something that may be emotionally charged, we throw it out the window.

00:02:45.000 So that's what it is in the bottom line.

00:02:48.000 Today's topic, I do not believe that biological males should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

00:02:55.000 Obviously you disagree to some degree.

00:02:57.000 Yes.

00:02:59.000 Feel free to, you know, make your case and change my mind.

00:03:01.000 Okay.

00:03:02.000 I guess my first point of contention would be with the wording of the statement, um, biological males should not compete.

00:03:09.000 I'm curious as to why it would be biological males and not trans women should not compete, because I feel like there is a distinction there, even if it is, you know, maybe an arbitrary one in your case.

00:03:20.000 Well, how is it not arbitrary?

00:03:23.000 How is it not?

00:03:24.000 Oh, you mean the distinction between trans?

00:03:25.000 Yeah.

00:03:25.000 So when you say that, for example, I could use either term interchangeably.

00:03:29.000 Yeah.

00:03:30.000 Biological males is something that everyone would understand.

00:03:32.000 Yeah.

00:03:32.000 So why is it so important to you that that terminology be changed?

00:03:37.000 Yeah.

00:03:38.000 I feel like a lot of the times people use, like, biology as this sort of, like, constant, you know, obviously I'm sure you believe, maybe I'm wrong, that biology is a binary, and that there's male and female.

00:03:52.000 And that it's just like that, is that correct?

00:03:54.000 And that you can be one or the other and that there's no... As a general rule, there are obviously radical exceptions to the rule, like intersex people or people with, you know, androgen resistance or stuff.

00:04:02.000 But we're talking about, you know, 0.01% of the population.

00:04:06.000 So yes, obviously, and obviously even people who believe in the transgender ideology have long agreed that biology exists in a binary.

00:04:16.000 Oh, for sure.

00:04:16.000 Not gender, but biology.

00:04:18.000 Yeah, no, definitely.

00:04:19.000 So if we agree that biological sex is, or at least, would you agree with my presumption here

00:04:28.000 that certainly what's being taught on school is that gender and sex are different, and the

00:04:32.000 primary difference is sex is biological and gender is societal?

00:04:35.000 Yeah, I would agree with that.

00:04:37.000 Okay, alright.

00:04:38.000 So, I, okay, so, sorry, continue with your point as to why you would prefer it be worded

00:04:42.000 with trans women versus biological males.

00:04:45.000 Because I do believe that as far as expression goes, like obviously there is that difference that you're talking about.

00:04:52.000 And even in trans women, a lot of them who do compete in sports, there is obviously the hormonal like, you know, estrogen and like all the treatment that they go through, which Actually, no.

00:05:04.000 alter their physical sort of like ability to compete in these sports and

00:05:09.000 so to save biological men instead of trans women sort of indicates that there 0.56

00:05:17.000 is no difference when I think there probably is you know you know I would

00:05:22.000 argue maybe I'm misunderstanding your point you just said that gender is

00:05:28.000 Yeah.

00:05:28.000 Sex is biological.

00:05:29.000 Yeah.

00:05:30.000 So the reason I am saying it's biological, males, is because this is biological, right?

00:05:35.000 Males. 0.90

00:05:36.000 Yeah.

00:05:36.000 But then you're saying you would rather see trans women, which is societal.

00:05:40.000 It's not biological.

00:05:42.000 Sports are separated by biology.

00:05:44.000 That's why there are male-female divisions, and up until recently, male-female divisions, men's and women's divisions, they were always separated by biology. 0.98

00:05:51.000 And you're suggesting that it would be more conducive to an accurate assessment here by using a gendered term rather than biological.

00:06:00.000 Okay, I see your point now, yes.

00:06:03.000 So I would concede to you on that, as far as like the distinction I'm finding with the wording, if that is sort of your, you know, Well, I want to understand your position, because you just said that gender and sex are different.

00:06:13.000 Yes.

00:06:13.000 And my issue is with... I don't care if someone wants to identify, right?

00:06:18.000 If they want to identify as a woman in society, that's a totally separate issue. 1.00

00:06:23.000 We're talking about sports, which have been separated by biological sex.

00:06:26.000 Okay, that's interesting.

00:06:27.000 We're talking about biological males who are now dominating biological females.

00:06:32.000 Okay, so...

00:06:34.000 My point of contention with what you just said there would be that biological males are dominating biological females.

00:06:40.000 I have not seen that play out.

00:06:43.000 Obviously there's a few cases here and there, but I could easily just make the argument that Leah Thomas came in 8th in one of her races and came in 5th in another one.

00:06:53.000 And set the record in one.

00:06:55.000 Yes, for sure.

00:06:55.000 And set the record with a time that would have ranked not even in the top 500.

00:06:59.000 Yeah.

00:07:00.000 Right, not even the top 500 male rankings for the 500 meter.

00:07:04.000 Not even the top 800 for the 200 meter, which I believe is what Leah Thomas won.

00:07:08.000 You're saying the record he set when he was racing women?

00:07:11.000 The record he set as he raced with women, yeah. 0.86

00:07:13.000 Would not even register.

00:07:14.000 Ranked in the top 500.

00:07:15.000 And how does that further your point?

00:07:17.000 Well, the point is there, this is someone who was competing as a male, was a middling to low end of the pack male, and is now a champion female.

00:07:25.000 My argument to that would just be that the reason why he was middle of the pack was because he was on hormones.

00:07:31.000 No, not before.

00:07:32.000 He had begun to transition while he was competing against men, as far as I was aware.

00:07:36.000 No, and certainly, and if you would argue that, it would certainly only be at the tail end, not for the entirety of his athletic career.

00:07:41.000 Uh, no, no, not for the entirety.

00:07:42.000 Right.

00:07:42.000 But when you're looking at those middle-of-the-pack numbers, I believe, and obviously it's just your word against my word, so... Right, I understand.

00:07:49.000 I'm not gonna, like, stay on this point.

00:07:50.000 No, and I appreciate it.

00:07:51.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:51.000 And I try and make all the references publicly available, so when this goes up... Sure, yeah, yeah.

00:07:55.000 Because I can just easily get something wrong.

00:07:57.000 For example, I could be mixing up the 200 and 500 meter.

00:08:00.000 I know that he won one of them.

00:08:02.000 And it's kind of, you're missing the forest for the trees and you want to get caught in the grass.

00:08:05.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:08:06.000 Because there are many, many examples of biological males dominating biological females.

00:08:10.000 There are over 80 examples of women who either lost out on opportunities You have Mary Gregory, I believe, in powerlifting.

00:08:17.000 You have women's cycling, a record that was set.

00:08:20.000 You have examples across the board in weightlifting, in cycling, in swimming, in track, not to mention combat sports where women can actually be physically harmed.

00:08:30.000 So, it has happened quite a bit.

00:08:32.000 Now, granted, it's such a small percentage of the population.

00:08:35.000 What I want to avoid is, and I mean this genuinely, I'm not just blowing smoke, you seem like a sharp guy.

00:08:41.000 You know, that intellectual fallacy of appeal to novelty, right?

00:08:44.000 That argumentum ad novitatum is what they call it, but appeal to novelty, which means, well, since we haven't done it yet, therefore there are no consequences.

00:08:52.000 Well, it's just because we haven't done it yet.

00:08:54.000 This is very, very new.

00:08:55.000 And where we have implemented these types of policies, we've seen an unbelievable differential between the biological males and women. 0.86

00:09:04.000 It's just we've only been doing this for a few years.

00:09:05.000 It's like saying, well, there are no negative consequences to a 90% income tax.

00:09:10.000 Not yet.

00:09:11.000 But if we implement it tomorrow, and it takes five years to see all the bankruptcies, it's not really an argument.

00:09:17.000 Where we have implemented it, we have seen quite a few examples.

00:09:20.000 But it is on a smaller scale, because it would have been considered absurd five years ago.

00:09:24.000 And it's hard for me to contextualize that 80 number that you gave, because I do not know what the total is, so it's a hard number rather than a percentage.

00:09:32.000 So it's hard for me to take that at face value.

00:09:35.000 Let's say it's not that much.

00:09:38.000 It's still more than one.

00:09:39.000 Sure, yeah.

00:09:40.000 And then we can get to my issues.

00:09:43.000 For example, you mentioned hormones.

00:09:45.000 So I want to make sure that I understand this, because I think you're actually arguing what a lot of people argue, and I can understand why people would think this way, that if a biological male undergoes hormone replacement, that they no longer would have the biological advantages inferred.

00:10:04.000 I'm not necessarily saying that.

00:10:05.000 Obviously, that is the majority, but it's obviously not in every case.

00:10:09.000 So, if someone did not undergo hormone replacement therapy at all, you would be against them competing against women?

00:10:17.000 I actually don't know.

00:10:19.000 It's a very nuanced situation.

00:10:20.000 Well, then why bring it up?

00:10:22.000 Oh, just because, like, as far as, like... Because you brought that up as one of the first things.

00:10:25.000 Yes, just in the case of, like, oh, these people are just dominating and whatever, and in the case of, like...

00:10:31.000 I don't think in my mind there's a perfect answer to this sort of... because in my mind there's a couple different options.

00:10:35.000 while he was on hormones.

00:10:38.000 But my greater sort of, because you do bring up a good point,

00:10:42.000 which is that it is more than one, like who is going to be harmed.

00:10:45.000 And I don't think in my mind, there's a perfect answer to this sort of,

00:10:51.000 because in my mind, there's a couple of different options.

00:10:54.000 It's either you.

00:10:54.000 Okay, like what?

00:10:55.000 Exclude transgender people entirely from competing. 1.00

00:10:59.000 And that's not what I'm suggesting. 0.99

00:11:01.000 Just compete with their biological sex. 1.00

00:11:03.000 Right, yeah.

00:11:04.000 And then there is the other option of letting them compete with their biological sex. 0.95

00:11:08.000 I believe you do run into the same problems, which is that if you are to let biological women compete with transgender men who were once women, you're essentially pitting women against, in your mind, other women who are just basically doping legally. 0.54

00:11:23.000 Because they're on hormones, or they're taking some sort of testosterone, or something like that.

00:11:27.000 So you run into the same problem when they're competing as, like, who they were assigned, what their gender was biologically at birth.

00:11:34.000 Are you saying a biological woman?

00:11:34.000 You see what I'm saying?

00:11:36.000 Yeah.

00:11:36.000 Competing?

00:11:37.000 Against a trans man, who was previously a woman.

00:11:39.000 Hold on a second, hold on a second.

00:11:40.000 Let's just stick with the term biology here, because you're using gender terms. 1.00

00:11:43.000 So, a biological woman. 0.70

00:11:44.000 Yes.

00:11:45.000 Competing against a biological... Uh, woman. 1.00

00:11:48.000 Who is on, like, you know... Steroids.

00:11:48.000 Yes.

00:11:50.000 Yeah, or testosterone, which would improve their performance.

00:11:56.000 So it runs into the same problem in my sense.

00:11:58.000 Which is exactly what we're allowing with the trans athletes. 0.99

00:12:00.000 So the reason I bring that up is because, I don't know if you know this, but the International Olympic Committee doesn't require any hormone replacement therapy at all.

00:12:07.000 None.

00:12:08.000 And what happened with Leah Thomas, and this was shocking to me, was, now a big reason

00:12:12.000 that the IOC does that is they say, well we punt it to the organizations of the individual

00:12:15.000 sports.

00:12:16.000 And you and I both know, of course, being on campus, I think you're probably to the

00:12:19.000 left of center, but I don't think you're someone who believes in stifling speech or ideas,

00:12:23.000 you know, or shutting people down.

00:12:24.000 I think that would be a bad thing.

00:12:25.000 Yes, exactly.

00:12:26.000 But we both know that smaller sports organizations are more prone to succumbing to the pressure

00:12:32.000 of activist groups, right?

00:12:34.000 So the IOC says, we'll punt it to these organizations.

00:12:37.000 With the NCAA, what happened, and I'm just using this because it's the most recent example, what happened is the NCAA had rules that said, you know what, we're going to go up to the national swimming organizing body.

00:12:46.000 I believe it's USA Swimming.

00:12:47.000 I may have that wrong.

00:12:48.000 I think it's USA Swimming.

00:12:50.000 He said 36 months of hormone replacement therapy.

00:12:54.000 The NCAA said, mm, we're not going to do that.

00:12:54.000 Okay.

00:12:57.000 You just have to tell us you're doing 12 months of hormone replacement therapy.

00:13:00.000 Okay.

00:13:01.000 And you just need to submit one test within four weeks of competition, and you're only allowed to have the testosterone levels twice that of a normal female. 0.99

00:13:08.000 Okay.

00:13:08.000 I believe it's five, either nanomoles per deciliter, or five nanograms per deciliter.

00:13:13.000 And they allowed it to 10.

00:13:14.000 Is that like a ceiling?

00:13:15.000 So you can't go past that?

00:13:15.000 It's a ceiling.

00:13:16.000 You can't go past, but for a trans athlete, you can't go past 10. 0.98

00:13:20.000 Which is two times that of a woman. 0.97

00:13:20.000 Okay. 0.97

00:13:22.000 So it would be like you going into a sport.

00:13:24.000 Have you ever played sports?

00:13:25.000 I have, yes.

00:13:26.000 Okay, so what sport?

00:13:27.000 What's your sport?

00:13:27.000 Basketball.

00:13:28.000 Oh, basketball, okay.

00:13:29.000 So, yeah, you can't find a juicer in professional basketball, right? 0.76

00:13:33.000 No.

00:13:34.000 No, of course not.

00:13:34.000 They're all natural.

00:13:35.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:36.000 Um, but, uh, it would be like telling LeBron James, or it would be like telling I don't follow college basketball, but whoever's good in college basketball, it'd be like saying, okay, look, look, you're not allowed to do steroids, you say you're not doing them for 12 months, and then within four weeks, you just submit a blood test where you only have two times the testosterone levels of your male counterparts.

00:13:55.000 You know, we always talk about steroids in sports, right, and how it's become easier to beat these sort of tests, and the tests become more elaborate.

00:13:55.000 Okay.

00:14:03.000 This is a cheat sheet to transgender males, to biological males, claiming to be women, on how to cheat. 1.00

00:14:08.000 It's, we're only going to need a test within four weeks, and you're still allowed to have two times the levels.

00:14:13.000 And even then, you know, what's also important is, And I understand what you're saying.

00:14:17.000 I guess I don't know what your position is.

00:14:18.000 My position is biological males compete with biological males, biological females compete with biological females. 0.99

00:14:24.000 That was a position of even modern transgender activists until just really two, three years ago, because all sports are different.

00:14:31.000 That's biology.

00:14:34.000 Now we're at a point where we're trying to make the argument that, well, if they undergo hormone replacement therapy for a year, they don't have the... And that's also not true.

00:14:41.000 The medical literature, this isn't up to date with the data, they only lose about 5% of their strength.

00:14:45.000 We're talking not just strength, we're talking about ligament strength.

00:14:47.000 I will say, it varies a lot.

00:14:48.000 It's about 5%, according to the medical literature.

00:14:50.000 They lose about 5% in 12 months.

00:14:51.000 Okay, I've seen it as high as 7.

00:14:53.000 Okay.

00:14:57.000 The most legitimate study that I've seen, the most legitimate study is five.

00:15:00.000 It also depends on what you're measuring, like physical strength or endurance.

00:15:03.000 Physical strength, muscle area, total muscle volume, muscle density, connective tissue strength, for example, male connective tissue strength, ligament strength, tendon strength is 80% higher, red blood cell count, VO2 max, overall lung capacity, lever arms, longer, I mean, bone density.

00:15:22.000 The list goes on and on and on.

00:15:23.000 These don't go away with 12 months.

00:15:24.000 They don't even go away with two years.

00:15:25.000 Yeah, I mean, I would argue things like wingspan, bone density, all that stuff is the same.

00:15:30.000 But, like, certain, you know, rather than looking at... Oh, you'd argue bone density is the same between a male and a female?

00:15:34.000 Oh, no, I was saying after you are on hormones for a while, your wingspan, things like that, that sort of, like your height is not necessarily going to change, although that does happen sometimes, I think, but I don't think that's a result of being on estrogen.

00:15:45.000 You're saying, yeah, your wingspan wouldn't change, exactly, you would still enjoy the...

00:15:50.000 Sure.

00:15:50.000 But, I do think there are certain physical attributes that do change.

00:15:55.000 Like, as far as, like, you know, like, strength is a big... Like, there'd be, like, how many push-ups you can do.

00:16:00.000 There's studies where they'll test pre- and post-transition.

00:16:03.000 It gets lower.

00:16:04.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:16:05.000 It evens out.

00:16:05.000 It evens out pretty much.

00:16:07.000 Not in the studies that I've seen.

00:16:08.000 I guess so, yeah.

00:16:08.000 No.

00:16:09.000 And this is another one where we can just go back and forth.

00:16:10.000 Your word, my word.

00:16:11.000 I don't really want to camp out on that, you know?

00:16:12.000 Right.

00:16:13.000 I think we can just sort of agree to disagree.

00:16:14.000 Well, I think the data is pretty clear and I think, look, let's say that you're correct.

00:16:19.000 Yeah.

00:16:21.000 Let's say that there are studies out there that show after a year of testosterone suppression, everything is the same.

00:16:26.000 Let's assume that's correct.

00:16:27.000 I don't believe so, but let's assume it's correct.

00:16:32.000 Still doesn't bring us to a solution, does it?

00:16:34.000 Um, not a very clean one, no.

00:16:37.000 So what are you suggesting?

00:16:39.000 I'm saying that biological males compete with biological males.

00:16:42.000 Because I believe someone also needs to advocate for biological females. 0.99

00:16:46.000 That's why Title IX exists.

00:16:47.000 Yeah.

00:16:48.000 Um, your suggestion is...

00:16:51.000 My suggestion is to let, like, trans athletes play with... So, like, I just say let trans men compete in men's sports, and let trans women compete in women's sports.

00:17:01.000 Right.

00:17:02.000 So when you say trans men, again, you're using a gender... So you're arguing that gender and sex are the same?

00:17:07.000 Uh, no, not necessarily.

00:17:09.000 Well, because you're saying let trans men compete in men's sports, let trans women... What you're really saying is biological males who identify as women compete in women's sports.

00:17:16.000 And sports are separated by biology.

00:17:18.000 There's no getting around that.

00:17:19.000 Oh, there has been.

00:17:20.000 Yeah, but it's not like a constant war of nature or something like that.

00:17:23.000 That can change.

00:17:24.000 It has been a constant.

00:17:25.000 For a very good reason.

00:17:26.000 It's the same reason we have weight classes.

00:17:28.000 It's the same reason we have age divisions.

00:17:29.000 It's not like gravity that you can't, you know what I mean?

00:17:32.000 It's a construct that we can morph if we find the social utility for it.

00:17:36.000 You see what I'm saying?

00:17:37.000 And what would the social utility be?

00:17:39.000 To upending based on sparse or non-existent clinical data that you're mentioning.

00:17:46.000 What would the upside be to allowing biological males to beat biological women? 0.98

00:17:50.000 Because you know it's not going the other direction.

00:17:52.000 You and I both know that, right?

00:17:53.000 There's the lab study and then there's the real life study.

00:17:55.000 Biological women are not competing and beating biological men in sports. 0.99

00:18:00.000 It's only going one way.

00:18:02.000 Biological differences between men and women, in general, do exist, right?

00:18:07.000 And so I'm definitely not going to argue with that.

00:18:09.000 But when you bring trans people into the equation, I'm looking at it from the perspective of what is going to... It's like a harm reduction type of perspective that I'm coming at from. 1.00

00:18:18.000 So, it goes back to my earlier point, which is, even if you wanted to say, okay, biological men and biological women compete in separate sports, and then Like, it doesn't matter if you transition over or not, you have to compete with who you were biologically assigned with at birth.

00:18:36.000 It still just creates the same problem where women who want to transition to men have to compete against women and then it's not fair to the women who are getting, you know, beat up on by this transition, like this trans man who is taking hormones and is taking... Well, they shouldn't be allowed to compete. 0.95

00:18:52.000 Okay, so you're saying... Is that your opinion?

00:18:54.000 Yes, a woman who is taking Anabolic. 1.00

00:18:58.000 Yeah.

00:18:59.000 Effectively.

00:19:00.000 Right?

00:19:01.000 It's transitioning to...

00:19:02.000 A woman who's taking anabolic... 1.00

00:19:03.000 Well, a woman who's taking anabolic. 1.00

00:19:04.000 Sure.

00:19:05.000 Let's boil this down to biological terms.

00:19:06.000 A woman who's taking testosterone. 1.00

00:19:07.000 Sure.

00:19:08.000 No non-trans identifying woman is allowed to do that. 0.88

00:19:09.000 They're banned from sport.

00:19:10.000 Okay.

00:19:11.000 It's illegal.

00:19:12.000 Okay.

00:19:13.000 Should be illegal regardless of how you identify.

00:19:14.000 Okay.

00:19:15.000 They shouldn't be allowed to beat up on women, just like a woman shouldn't be allowed to 1.00

00:19:17.000 take anabolic steroids and beat up on women.

00:19:19.000 Okay. 0.96

00:19:19.000 And that is a fine position to hold? 0.96

00:19:21.000 It's not my position?

00:19:22.000 That's a harm reduction position.

00:19:23.000 It is, for sure.

00:19:24.000 So that's my harm reduction position.

00:19:25.000 Yeah, it is.

00:19:26.000 What's the harm reduction you're saying?

00:19:27.000 Your harm reduction model?

00:19:28.000 Yeah.

00:19:31.000 I would like as many people to participate in sports as possible while still keeping, because like you said, trans, like the trans community is a fairly small one.

00:19:44.000 This is not a sort of an epidemic or a pandemic like some maybe make it out to be.

00:19:49.000 It's a small- It's not yet.

00:19:51.000 It's not yet.

00:19:52.000 Because it's very new.

00:19:53.000 I would rather not act on it.

00:19:54.000 And if it does change and it becomes a really big problem, then maybe we can readdress how we sort of go about this.

00:19:59.000 So let a problem that all data would indicate is likely going

00:20:03.000 to happen and even the small sample sizes that we have, allow that problem to run its course, allow it to rob women 1.00

00:20:09.000 of opportunities, allow it to create- Once it does become a problem, then we can address it.

00:20:14.000 bones like we've seen in women's combat sports because we don't know how bad it'll be yet 1.00

00:20:18.000 and then reverse course if it gets worse.

00:20:20.000 My argument would be that it is not a problem yet.

00:20:22.000 Once it does become a problem, then we can address it.

00:20:25.000 But as of right now in the current moment, I don't see it as being probable.

00:20:29.000 So I think in your harm reduction you are failing to take into account one large group

00:20:33.000 Okay.

00:20:34.000 You're taking into account a very small group of people and you've, I don't think you've mean, but you've conflated gender and sex, which is why modern gender theory is one I disagree with because it's not a tenable position.

00:20:44.000 Sure.

00:20:45.000 Because everything that you have discussed is basically equating gender with sex at that point.

00:20:49.000 That's the only way you can argue that people who identify a certain way should be able to compete with people who are biologically female. 0.84

00:20:55.000 But, let's say it's 1% of the population that's trans.

00:20:57.000 Okay?

00:21:00.000 In your harm reduction approach, who are you ignoring?

00:21:04.000 Well, I'm assuming from your perspective it'd be biological women, right? 0.76

00:21:07.000 Yeah.

00:21:09.000 But you would have to sort of explain to me why that is the case, if it is 1% of people who are trans.

00:21:14.000 Well, what's the purpose to sports?

00:21:19.000 Why do we play sport?

00:21:20.000 I mean, that's a great question.

00:21:21.000 I don't know.

00:21:21.000 I don't have a philosophical answer for you.

00:21:22.000 What's the goal in sport?

00:21:24.000 To win, I'm assuming?

00:21:25.000 Yes.

00:21:25.000 Okay.

00:21:25.000 That's the only goal in sport.

00:21:26.000 I mean, you know, have fun along the way, maybe.

00:21:28.000 I don't know.

00:21:29.000 Yeah, sure.

00:21:29.000 Have fun along the way.

00:21:30.000 Camaraderie.

00:21:31.000 But when we're talking about sports and high-level sports, like NCAA, it's not fun.

00:21:35.000 It's not fun to be a champion at that point, right?

00:21:37.000 It's a very difficult life.

00:21:38.000 They've sacrificed a lot.

00:21:39.000 They've trained a lot.

00:21:41.000 They've run into many complications of people who are not trying to be excellent in their field.

00:21:44.000 I think we would both agree with that, right?

00:21:45.000 It's not really a fun life to be an NCAA silver medalist.

00:21:49.000 It takes discipline, for sure. 0.99

00:21:50.000 To be an Olympic silver medalist and then get your ass kicked by someone who was a man two years ago. 0.99

00:21:54.000 Yeah. 0.99

00:21:56.000 So the purpose is to win.

00:21:57.000 Now, that's why sports exist.

00:22:00.000 The NCAA, right?

00:22:02.000 Collegiate sports.

00:22:04.000 What opportunities do those provide?

00:22:06.000 Would we both agree that they're significant?

00:22:08.000 Oh yeah, for sure.

00:22:09.000 Scholarships, paths to careers, coaching.

00:22:13.000 So beyond the actual physical harm which can take place in certain sports, with biological men competing against women, What about all the economic harm? 0.98

00:22:24.000 What about all the opportunity costs for these women who've trained their whole lives and they miss out? 0.97

00:22:29.000 Because far more of them will be affected than transgender individuals who don't even compete in sport.

00:22:38.000 What do you mean by that?

00:22:39.000 What I mean is if we have 1% of transgender individuals, right, in the population, and not many of them are competing in sports, I'm talking about a harm reduction strategy that at the cost of all of the other women in these sports who are vying for these opportunities, we are acquiescing to biological males in the name of harm reduction. 0.93

00:22:58.000 But it's actually probably the most harmful thing we can do.

00:23:03.000 For women's sports, for female sports. 0.69

00:23:06.000 I guess my argument for that would just be that, you know, you're talking about, you're framing it in a sense that, like, trans women are taking opportunities from biological women, I assume is the point here.

00:23:18.000 They are.

00:23:18.000 I would just say that it's not sort of a, if you want to make, because I do think there is going to be harm done either way, I will agree, but I think it's sort of a, it's more of a one-to-one thing, you're making it seem like biological women are going to be hurt exponentially more.

00:23:32.000 When it's like, if a trans woman takes a biological woman's place, 0.92

00:23:36.000 that's a one-to-one sort of trade-off.

00:23:38.000 I mean, one or the other is going to take that place of the other person.

00:23:41.000 So, it's just depending on who you want to favor as.

00:23:44.000 And it just comes down to, I believe, like, what you view.

00:23:47.000 Like, the women's sports thing is sort of a microcosm of the bigger sort of trans... 0.99

00:23:52.000 Like, you know, it pivots on what you're opinion.

00:23:56.000 Well, it shows that modern gender theory can't hold water. 1.00

00:23:59.000 Oh, why is that?

00:24:00.000 Well, because I've been even at this school and other schools where I said there are only two genders.

00:24:04.000 Right, changed my mind.

00:24:06.000 And people go, well, no, no, gender is separate from sex.

00:24:07.000 Yeah.

00:24:08.000 Okay, let's go with that.

00:24:09.000 Yeah.

00:24:10.000 But now you're sitting here arguing gender and sex are interchangeable.

00:24:13.000 Um, I wouldn't argue they're interchangeable.

00:24:15.000 Well, you are arguing that in the realm of sport.

00:24:18.000 Um, not necessarily.

00:24:20.000 No.

00:24:20.000 Okay, then please clarify, because I just heard you say that biological males I see what you're saying now.

00:24:27.000 which is a gender term, right? 0.86

00:24:28.000 Trans women is not a biological term, that's a gender term. 1.00

00:24:31.000 So you say people of a gender should be allowed to now identify with whatever sex they choose to compete with.

00:24:37.000 I see what you're saying now. So I would like to clarify that then.

00:24:39.000 Okay.

00:24:40.000 Um, people who identify as men should be allowed to compete against each other.

00:24:45.000 People who identify as women should be allowed to compete against each other. 0.99

00:24:49.000 I make no biological distinctions there.

00:24:53.000 So a separate division?

00:24:54.000 No, not a separate division.

00:24:55.000 I just think that it brings us back to the same issue.

00:24:57.000 You're saying biological males who identify as trans women, a gender term, brings us right back to the same place, should be able to compete against other people who are separated by sex.

00:25:10.000 There is only an exception For the modern transgender theorist, right? 0.93

00:25:15.000 Everywhere else it's separated by biology.

00:25:17.000 No.

00:25:17.000 I can't compete against women just because I don't say that I'm a woman.

00:25:21.000 Yeah.

00:25:22.000 I could tomorrow.

00:25:23.000 Yeah.

00:25:24.000 Um, well, so...

00:25:27.000 One, just to that point, I don't think that is something that is really happening.

00:25:30.000 People are just being like, I'm a man, I'm just going to say I'm a woman and go compete against women. 0.51

00:25:35.000 I don't think that is a thing that happens.

00:25:36.000 I do believe it is legitimate.

00:25:39.000 People who are legitimately trying to transition who want to compete in these sports.

00:25:43.000 How do you know?

00:25:44.000 Because, I mean, look at Leah Thomas, look at all the examples that you yourself have cited.

00:25:49.000 I have not seen an example of a person doing that, yet.

00:25:53.000 And if that does happen, again, then it becomes a problem and we forget a way to address it.

00:25:56.000 Yeah, it has happened.

00:25:57.000 And again, just because it hasn't happened yet, that's the, you know, argumentum ad novitatum, that's the appeal to novelty, logical thought.

00:26:02.000 Well, it hasn't happened yet.

00:26:03.000 This isn't even, because I do want to go back to the thing you were saying about the men and women, the biological.

00:26:08.000 Yes.

00:26:09.000 I don't understand how your position is tenable if gender and sex are separate. 0.99

00:26:14.000 So, my only point that I would like to make is, when you say men's and women's sports, I would like that to just simply mean people who identify as men, people who identify as women.

00:26:26.000 But it doesn't.

00:26:28.000 Not right now, no.

00:26:28.000 But it could.

00:26:29.000 And it doesn't because of biological differences.

00:26:30.000 Sports are separated due to biological differences.

00:26:32.000 They are right now, yes.

00:26:34.000 And there's a reason for that.

00:26:35.000 For the safety of women.

00:26:37.000 Um, well, and then it just goes back to the same argument.

00:26:39.000 We kind of are going back to that.

00:26:39.000 No, no, it's not going back to the same argument.

00:26:40.000 You haven't addressed it.

00:26:41.000 For the safety of women.

00:26:42.000 Well, we went back and forth on the data of does it actually harm women in the sense of, like, because, I mean, obviously, you mentioned, like, broken orbital bones and all that stuff in combat sports, which injuries are going to happen in the realm of, obviously, an orbital bone is a pretty serious, I mean, that's a bad one, but injuries are going to happen in the realm of combat sports, citing that as being as dangerous to women.

00:27:01.000 Let me ask you this, because maybe we're just, do you not believe that there would be more injuries occurring in contact sports if biological men just competed, if there were no men and

00:27:10.000 women's divisions? 1.00

00:27:10.000 Do you honestly not believe that that would drastically increase the chances of injury? 1.00

00:27:13.000 Well, you know, I think...

00:27:14.000 Come on, we have people who are walking CTE, right?

00:27:17.000 The lifespan of an old lineman is somewhere in their 40s or 50s in the NFL.

00:27:21.000 These are 315, 340 pound men, and they're still having to deal with being hit.

00:27:25.000 Do you honestly believe that if we didn't have men and women's division,

00:27:28.000 that a woman, a female quarterback being sacked, that a female lineman, you don't, you really don't think

00:27:35.000 that there would be an increase in dramatic injuries?

00:27:36.000 No, there would. Yeah, definitely.

00:27:38.000 But I would like to note that, like, obviously...

00:27:41.000 It hasn't happened yet.

00:27:42.000 Well, of course there is, you know, differences in men and women,

00:27:46.000 like, you know, a big linebacker versus a small...

00:27:48.000 But, I would like to point out that whenever you do talk about, sort of, biological differences between- Why do you do this? 0.96

00:27:54.000 Uh, sorry, yeah, I don't know, that's a stupid- yeah, but whenever you talk about- What, do you mean to do this, or was that accidental?

00:27:58.000 Let's not read too deeply into it, I don't think it's really anything that much- Well, no, hold on a second, is it- is it- cause I- I am saying, I'm being- I- I think it matters. 0.96

00:28:03.000 Biological males. 0.98

00:28:04.000 Well- But you did this.

00:28:06.000 Yeah, so let me get to the point.

00:28:07.000 Is that when you do talk about biological distinctions, what you're really saying are physical, chemical distinctions between people, right?

00:28:14.000 Like, I could say that, oh, a 6'6", 230 pound linebacker versus a college freshman of the same

00:28:23.000 age who's 5'5 and 180 pounds or whatever is not going to be a fair matchup.

00:28:30.000 But they're both men, but when you say biological differences, you're talking about physical, you know, competitive advantages that people have regardless of biology.

00:28:41.000 I mean, sorry, regardless of what they are assigned at birth, as far as gender goes.

00:28:45.000 Regardless of what biology determines them to be at birth.

00:28:49.000 Do you believe that biological male and biological female is assigned at birth?

00:28:56.000 Or do you believe that the gender assigned at birth is what can be changed?

00:29:00.000 Because this is very new.

00:29:01.000 You need to understand this.

00:29:02.000 The students I spoke with two years ago at this school, the professors, never in their wildest dreams would have said biological sex assigned at birth.

00:29:13.000 Are you suggesting that sex is being assigned rather than being intrinsic?

00:29:16.000 Because that's a whole new thing.

00:29:18.000 No.

00:29:18.000 The chromosomes that you are born with are the ones that you have and it's not a socially constructed thing.

00:29:24.000 You have those chromosomes.

00:29:25.000 It determines a lot about your physical makeup and stuff like that.

00:29:29.000 But, you know, and obviously there's intersex people and it's a spectrum and all that and it's

00:29:35.000 not a binary but it is intrinsic it is biological you can't you know

00:29:39.000 Just say that you don't have these certain chromosomes and but I don't think that's the argument people are making so

00:29:44.000 that would be mine You know

00:29:46.000 Well, you don't think what is the argument every single person this country thinks that it's unfair for biological

00:29:50.000 males to compete against biological females Not in the realm of competition.

00:29:55.000 I'm just simply saying, I don't think anybody is making the argument that you are not born with chromosomes that give you certain, you know, like, that differentiate you from biology.

00:30:04.000 Well, absolutely.

00:30:05.000 Yeah, sure.

00:30:05.000 Yeah.

00:30:05.000 and your position is untenable.

00:30:07.000 Because you're saying there is something that is innate, there is something that is intrinsic, right?

00:30:10.000 There is something that's immutable.

00:30:12.000 But we need to throw that out the window as it relates to sports and go by gender, which is societal. 0.69

00:30:16.000 I see your point, but the problem is that...

00:30:21.000 Sports are not separated by how you identify.

00:30:24.000 They are separated by immutable physical characteristics for the reason of safety and fairness in competition.

00:30:32.000 Can we agree on that?

00:30:33.000 That's why they're separated by biology.

00:30:36.000 I might agree, but if you're going off of specifically... So your definition of why they are separated is immutable physical characteristics for people's safety.

00:30:46.000 I would just make the argument, in fairness, right?

00:30:47.000 I would just make the argument, okay, so we should have smaller men and women compete against each other, and women who are at a better physical, because you, I mean, you would acknowledge that.

00:30:56.000 We do.

00:30:56.000 We have Division 1 versus Division 3, and we have weight classes.

00:30:58.000 Perfect example.

00:30:59.000 Sure, yeah, exactly.

00:31:00.000 But you would not cross the biological lines to, like, the gender, you know, the sex.

00:31:05.000 No, because the difference is so vast.

00:31:07.000 I mean, not for everybody, though, right?

00:31:09.000 I mean, because if you want to make the argument that it is for the safety of people, I think there's a lot of women who can beat up. 1.00

00:31:13.000 It absolutely is.

00:31:13.000 It's unbelievably, the gap is so much larger between men and women.

00:31:16.000 It's not even close.

00:31:17.000 I mean, you can look at the, again, when you're looking at just Leah Thomas as a recent example, talking about 503rd, I believe, in the 200 or 500-something place, if that time were posted by when he was still competing as a man, not even top 800 in the 500.

00:31:32.000 Right, it's a huge, and you're talking about winning one of them, placing fifth in another, it's not even close.

00:31:39.000 I mean, even just, do you think Serena Williams and Venus Williams, do you think they would do well against top guys?

00:31:44.000 Oh no, I should actually clarify that.

00:31:45.000 Do you think they would even do well against middling guys?

00:31:48.000 Um, I'm not sure about middling guys, but I will say at a high level, there is a complete difference between men and women as far as like physical advantages. 0.97

00:31:55.000 My point is the best female athletes in the world aren't even close to middling to low-end male athletes.

00:32:02.000 Can you substantiate that claim?

00:32:04.000 Yeah, Venus and Serena Williams, they played tennis against a guy who was ranked 204th, I believe, and he beat both of them in one afternoon.

00:32:12.000 And he was a drunk.

00:32:12.000 I feel like that's an anecdotal, maybe, point to make, right?

00:32:16.000 It's not an anecdotal, you just asked me, can I point to an example, and then the empirical would be, okay, so the empirical would be the times that I just gave you for Leah Thomas, right?

00:32:25.000 I can give you other examples like Mary Gregory in powerlifting, the squat.

00:32:29.000 World record female squat versus male squat is a 400 pound difference. 0.98

00:32:32.000 When you're talking about men in the same weight class who are competing against each other, you're talking about infinitesimal amounts of weight.

00:32:39.000 You're talking about 2-3 pounds.

00:32:41.000 You're talking about the world record deadlift going up, if you're lucky, by 4 pounds maybe every two years.

00:32:46.000 That's the level of competition.

00:32:48.000 The difference between a man and a woman is over 400 pounds. 0.92

00:32:51.000 I just gave you the times, right, the empirical, as far as the swim times.

00:32:54.000 You could actually look at every single swim time, track time, right, decathlon time.

00:33:00.000 You could look at every single shot put.

00:33:02.000 You could look at every single long jump, high jump.

00:33:05.000 You could look at the verticals.

00:33:07.000 You can look at connective tissue strength, like I said, which is about 80% higher in men's.

00:33:11.000 You can look at all those.

00:33:11.000 That's the empirical.

00:33:12.000 Sure.

00:33:12.000 And I'm giving you an example of the two best female tennis players who have ever existed.

00:33:16.000 We're both just Absolutely washed in an afternoon by a drunken 200-something ranked guy.

00:33:22.000 Yeah.

00:33:23.000 Come on.

00:33:23.000 It's a big difference.

00:33:24.000 Well, yeah, I mean, I would say in a high-level competition... Let's not do the college thing.

00:33:26.000 This is a big, big difference.

00:33:28.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:28.000 In a high-level competition... No, high-level women against low-level men.

00:33:31.000 It's not even close.

00:33:32.000 Well, and, you know, to be honest, I don't know if that super matters to the... The best female athletes in the world get routed by adolescent boys.

00:33:37.000 Do you know that?

00:33:38.000 The world women's... The world female soccer champions, they lose, almost always, to high school boy teams.

00:33:47.000 Um, so I don't know if that's super... I feel like we're kind of getting off on a separate path here as far as, like... Well, no, I'm just addressing your argument where you said, well, the difference is depending, and I said, no, no, it's such a huge chasm between biological males and females that that's the reason they're separated.

00:34:01.000 I was addressing your point.

00:34:02.000 I would still make the argument that the chasm is not as big as you make it out to be, but my word against your word, I don't want to look anything... I would argue that it is not as big as... because obviously, I asked for Evidence, and there is a lot of, I'm sure, specific examples.

00:34:17.000 Assuming that I'm not lying.

00:34:18.000 Oh, I don't think you're lying.

00:34:19.000 I think all of those examples that you gave are very well, this could be true.

00:34:23.000 But again... The empirical and the anecdotal, right?

00:34:25.000 You recognize that I gave you the empirical, what can be measured in a lab, what can be measured as far as times across the board.

00:34:30.000 Yeah.

00:34:30.000 And then the anecdotal of the best female athletes competing against middling drunken men and still losing in female soccer teams.

00:34:35.000 Yeah, and I'm fairly more confident that those, the lab, the numbers that you give are not totally accurate.

00:34:40.000 Yeah, okay.

00:34:41.000 And then as far as like the individual cases, They are individual cases, so I'm not gonna, you know... So we'll discount the empirical, and discount the anecdotal, and now it's the broad, and now it's the brutal, and nothing is safe, Isaac.

00:34:54.000 That's good.

00:34:55.000 That was a good framing you just did.

00:34:56.000 But I would say that I would discount the anecdotal, yes.

00:34:58.000 I will acknowledge that.

00:35:00.000 But the empirical, I do believe, like, I have seen a lot of evidence that points towards my point of view.

00:35:05.000 What if you're wrong?

00:35:07.000 If I'm wrong, then I would be okay with it, because I feel like I would have at least tried to protect the rights of all people to play sports, unlike you.

00:35:15.000 Well, I mean, you were the one who said that you would not let trans men compete in sports.

00:35:21.000 You mean women, you mean biological females who are taking drugs? 1.00

00:35:24.000 Yes.

00:35:24.000 For the same reason?

00:35:25.000 Yeah, you just can't take anabolic steroids in the sport.

00:35:27.000 Yeah.

00:35:28.000 Now, if you're advocating that we should allow anabolic steroids in sport, fine.

00:35:31.000 How about it?

00:35:32.000 No, I'm advocating that.

00:35:35.000 Which by the way, I'm not even necessarily against.

00:35:37.000 Yeah.

00:35:38.000 Oh, you're not?

00:35:38.000 I'm not even necessarily against it.

00:35:39.000 No, I think either we need to have really, really strict testing across the board, or no testing and let the game begin.

00:35:45.000 Is that reasonable?

00:35:48.000 It's gotta be one or the other.

00:35:49.000 We have shitty testing right now that people can bypass.

00:35:51.000 Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:35:52.000 Yeah, well, honestly, I don't have a super, like, hard and fast opinion on that, specifically.

00:35:55.000 Oh, I have very strong opinions on that.

00:35:57.000 It would probably be a lot of fun to see a bunch of great athletes go up against each other, but... Especially sports like baseball.

00:36:01.000 Who cares?

00:36:02.000 Oh, yeah.

00:36:02.000 I mean, I don't watch baseball, so that would be... You just want to watch them hit home runs.

00:36:05.000 They're not hitting anybody.

00:36:06.000 I would watch baseball if that was the case, so I think it wouldn't be over on that one.

00:36:09.000 Okay, alright, that's fine.

00:36:10.000 Baseball would be less boring if we just let them...

00:36:12.000 Let them roid.

00:36:13.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:36:14.000 You know what?

00:36:14.000 It's like the Tour de France.

00:36:15.000 Did you see that?

00:36:15.000 The Tour de France, you know, they just excoriated, you know, Lance Armstrong.

00:36:18.000 Oh.

00:36:19.000 And I don't remember the number.

00:36:20.000 Because, you know, now they can retroactively go and test the samples.

00:36:23.000 Really?

00:36:23.000 With modern testing methods.

00:36:25.000 Yeah.

00:36:25.000 And they tested all of the other guys who he beat, you know, who sued him and were complaining.

00:36:29.000 And they had to go down to, like, number, I think it was 14, to find someone who was clean.

00:36:34.000 And now none of the records, none of the records are being set.

00:36:36.000 They were all set a few years ago, so.

00:36:39.000 No, it makes a big difference.

00:36:40.000 Yeah.

00:36:40.000 And by the way, you know what's interesting about that?

00:36:42.000 The difference of a man on steroids, picture the most jacked out dude on the bodybuilding stage, does not enjoy anywhere near the exponential hormonal advantage that a male enjoys over a female. 0.78

00:36:55.000 Arnold in his prime does not have a hormonal advantage over you that you do over her or her or her.

00:37:02.000 It's that big of a chasm.

00:37:04.000 I could probably concede to that.

00:37:05.000 I think that's probably maybe true.

00:37:08.000 I don't think it sways my... because I guess my question to you would just be, how do you address like the Leah Thomases and all the like transgender athletes who want to compete?

00:37:19.000 Your opinion is strictly, just so I'm clear, biological.

00:37:23.000 I'll give you two.

00:37:24.000 Okay. 0.84

00:37:26.000 So one is, and you're not going to like it, and you're going to think I'm a dick, you were competing as a man two years ago, you continue to compete as a man. 0.86

00:37:32.000 Okay? 0.92

00:37:34.000 That's the only fair way to do it.

00:37:36.000 Or, if I go along with the idea, which you have presented, and your peers here have presented, and your professors have presented, that gender and sex are different, then you have to change it based on gender, and create a third division?

00:37:50.000 Let me ask you this actually, it might help.

00:37:51.000 How many genders are there? 1.00

00:37:54.000 How many genders are there? 1.00

00:37:59.000 More than two?

00:37:59.000 I don't know.

00:38:03.000 More than three?

00:38:05.000 Why does it matter, I guess is my question.

00:38:08.000 Then you have to just create as many divisions as there are genders. 1.00

00:38:12.000 So one of those two.

00:38:13.000 You compete based on biology, like we always have, because it's what's safe, it's what's fair, it's what protects women. 0.99

00:38:19.000 Or, if you want to go with sort of modern gender theory, which I don't agree with, but I would allow for it in sport where, okay, I think Facebook has you up to 50-something genders now, maybe even be higher than that.

00:38:30.000 Great, 50-something sports divisions.

00:38:31.000 Compete in those against your gender.

00:38:33.000 It feels a bit, like, hyperbole to me, because I don't feel like there is a cry for that, for there to be 50.

00:38:39.000 No, of course there isn't.

00:38:40.000 They want to beat up on women. 1.00

00:38:42.000 Yeah, but I'm saying, I'm addressing your point that you're making currently, which is that I don't think that is an issue or a problem or anybody is calling for that to happen.

00:38:50.000 Create a third one where all the people can take all the hormones they want. 1.00

00:38:53.000 Is this your solution for the problem?

00:38:56.000 It's one of two.

00:38:57.000 My solution is you go with biology, because sports have been separated by biology.

00:39:01.000 If we need to protect trans athletes, I don't really know what that necessarily means.

00:39:05.000 I don't know how they're going to be harmed by not being allowed to dominate women at a swim meet.

00:39:09.000 Create a third division.

00:39:10.000 I mean, I would argue trans people do get the target of hate crimes fairly frequently, more so than your average person.

00:39:17.000 It's not a hate crime to not let them compete.

00:39:19.000 Oh no, I'm not talking about... I'm just talking about hate crimes in general.

00:39:23.000 If you want to talk about the protection of trans people.

00:39:25.000 But how are you protecting them by putting women, biological females, at risk?

00:39:30.000 I don't see that as a form of protection.

00:39:32.000 Well, so I think what it all kind of comes down to, and this is why I think that at the end of the day, women's sports are sort of a... and this is not me sort of conceding, because I still do, but at the end of the day... 0.53

00:39:45.000 It's very important, I think, that you affirm somebody's gender identity as they identify with it.

00:39:53.000 So I think it is harmful for the trans athletes to be told, like, if they identify as male, that they are not.

00:40:01.000 Yeah.

00:40:01.000 And so I see that... Ah, you just said male.

00:40:04.000 Uh-huh.

00:40:05.000 That's sex. 1.00

00:40:05.000 That's not gender. 1.00

00:40:07.000 Oh, sorry.

00:40:07.000 Whatever is the gender term.

00:40:08.000 No, you can't keep it straight, can you? 0.97

00:40:09.000 I mean, it's... Because it's silly. 0.97

00:40:12.000 It's a little silly, isn't it? 0.82

00:40:13.000 No, I am... Let me get down to a point. 0.96

00:40:14.000 For you to say you said trans men before, you... Hold on, this is... And I want to wrap this up here.

00:40:20.000 Because this isn't a gotcha.

00:40:21.000 This is me trying to... I don't fully understand your argument.

00:40:23.000 And then as long as I can respond after, you can... Well, because we do have to get going.

00:40:26.000 So I think you just presented your kind of closing sentiment here.

00:40:30.000 But it matters because the very first thing you did when you sat down, Do you remember what it was that you said?

00:40:34.000 I don't know.

00:40:35.000 You said you had a problem with the wording.

00:40:36.000 Uh-huh, yes.

00:40:38.000 And the problem that you had with the wording was that I kept saying biological males.

00:40:41.000 Yeah.

00:40:41.000 Right?

00:40:41.000 Yeah.

00:40:42.000 And you said we should use the term trans women.

00:40:46.000 Right?

00:40:46.000 Yeah.

00:40:47.000 But right now you just reverted back to saying they identify as females, males.

00:40:52.000 So you yourself, the biggest problem that you had when you sat down here It wasn't the biggest problem.

00:40:57.000 It was the first thing I said, but it wasn't the biggest problem.

00:40:59.000 Well, you said that your primary issue was with the wording.

00:41:01.000 I don't think it was primary.

00:41:02.000 I don't think that's what I said.

00:41:02.000 Okay, it's the first issue.

00:41:04.000 It's the first grievance that you issued, right?

00:41:07.000 But right now, you just committed the same sin.

00:41:10.000 I don't think so.

00:41:11.000 I mean, maybe I got my words mixed up, but I'm not going to sit here and claim that, like... You didn't get your words mixed up.

00:41:16.000 You were being very articulate.

00:41:17.000 And I think you've been articulate this whole time.

00:41:19.000 I think we disagree.

00:41:20.000 Well, thank you, yes.

00:41:21.000 But I really do think that you've been articulate, and I think you've been, um, I mean, you're probably the kind of, I don't know, you're probably not old enough to say, I would grab a beer with you, and we could sit there and talk.

00:41:28.000 I'm 21, so, yeah.

00:41:29.000 I don't know, sometime we could sit down and grab a beer.

00:41:31.000 But, um, you just did the same thing.

00:41:33.000 And that's my point with this.

00:41:35.000 I just don't think there's any intellectual consistency to it whatsoever.

00:41:38.000 You can't say, well, the term trans woman, because it's gender, it's different from sex, and then say they're allowed to compete with biological females, and then you just, and you've done this several times, you just said who identify as female or identify as male.

00:41:51.000 Yeah.

00:41:51.000 And that's my point, is it's an untenable position.

00:41:54.000 And I don't think it's about protecting trans women, to use your term now, see what I did there?

00:41:58.000 I think ultimately you need to look at the consequences that harm biological women, and they deserve those same opportunities.

00:42:05.000 My final point, I'm not gonna sit here and claim that the language is not confusing, or that all this stuff is not very new and uncharted territory.

00:42:15.000 I am not the most educated person in this.

00:42:17.000 Just because I do not understand something fully does not mean I should dismiss the validity of it.

00:42:22.000 You know, because obviously there are a group of people who, like, this is very important to them.

00:42:27.000 And just because, you know, I get mixed up on language... And there's an even larger group of people to whom it's important, and that's biological females. 1.00

00:42:32.000 Sure.

00:42:32.000 No, I'm just talking about the trans issue specifically.

00:42:35.000 But why not take into account biological females? 0.95

00:42:37.000 That's my point.

00:42:37.000 You don't seem to be concerned with them.

00:42:39.000 Oh, no, I'm not.

00:42:39.000 Listen, I'm not even addressing the sports thing.

00:42:40.000 I'm addressing what you were talking about with the language issue, which is that I am, you know, still learning a lot of stuff about this.

00:42:48.000 I am not the most educated person on it.

00:42:50.000 The language is confusing.

00:42:51.000 It's hard to integrate.

00:42:52.000 But at the end of the day, the complaints that people are levying are valid and it's something that I think people should approach with an open mind and just try their best to understand rather than shut it down immediately.

00:43:04.000 I think that's kind of where I stand on it.

00:43:06.000 Just because it is something that is new to you and maybe seems nonsensical, does not inherently disqualify it from being bad.

00:43:12.000 It's not new to me, it's something I've studied pretty extensively, and I do believe it's nonsensical.

00:43:17.000 And I would certainly say, if not the term nonsensical, it is absolutely untenable.

00:43:23.000 It's an untenable position to say that sex is biological, gender, Well, look at that.

00:43:38.000 I don't find the arguments particularly compelling, but respect, genuinely, to Isaac for sitting down with me and making his case like an adult.

00:43:46.000 Which reminds me, I wanted to ask you.

00:43:49.000 Have you had this discussion with people in real life?

00:43:52.000 Which arguments have you heard that were the most compelling as it relates to biological males competing in women's sports?

00:43:58.000 Just comment below.

00:43:59.000 And if you like what you see, hit the subscription button or consider tuning in Monday through Thursday 10 a.m.

00:44:04.000 Eastern for the full Daily Show.

00:44:06.000 Live.

00:44:06.000 That's 10 a.m.

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00:44:08.000 Live.

00:44:08.000 And I mean yes, live.

00:44:09.000 That's actually live uncensored.

00:44:12.000 Back to the topic at hand.

00:44:14.000 Other times with these discussions you have to realize that some people have no interest I mean, what's the point of sports?

00:44:23.000 these topics openly and honestly. Like this guy.

00:44:30.000 It's a win.

00:44:36.000 Is there a woman who would like to speak to him?

00:44:39.000 And that miracle, my friends, is coming tomorrow.

00:44:41.000 So if you want to see more, smash the like button, comment below, bookmark the channel.

00:44:45.000 Come back tomorrow at 10 a.m.

00:44:46.000 Hold on a second, let me ask you, hold on a second.

00:44:48.000 So, I'm gonna give up my seat now.

00:44:50.000 Is there a woman who would like to speak to him?

00:44:52.000 And that miracle, my friends, is coming tomorrow.

00:44:57.000 So if you want to see more, smash the like button, comment below, bookmark the channel.

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Louder with Crowder - March 28, 2022

Biological Males Should Not Compete in Women's Sports (Part 1) | Change My Mind

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