#2 — Why Don't I Criticize Israel？
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Summary
Why is it that I never criticize Israel? Why do I always take the side of the Israelis, even when they are the aggressors in the conflict with the Palestinians? What is the point of a Jewish state if it s not organized around a religion? And why do I think Israel should exist as a state based on a religion at all? Why does it have to be a state organized around one religion? And why is it so important that it be a country based on religion, rather than a nation based on the Bible and the laws it enshrine in the Torah? All these questions, and many more, are answered in this episode of the Ask Me Anything podcast by David Frum, who answers these questions and much more in response to a question sent in by a listener. I was going to do a podcast on a series of questions, but I got so many questions on the same topic that I think I d just do a single response on the topic, and will do an Ask me Anything podcast next time, next time. I think the idea of a religious state is ultimately untenable, and in defense of the Israeli government, Israel has done terrible things in the Middle East, and Israel has killed a lot of innocent people, including women, children, non-combatants, and innocent civilians, and have done a terrible amount of terrible things that is simply unforgivable. But that's not a bad thing, is it? I think it's time to ask the question and see what the answer might be? I hope you enjoy this one. -- it's a good one, and I hope it's not just as good as the rest of the questions you ask me. . -- and the answer is yes, it's better than the last time, because it's much better than what I did last time -- and it's more than good enough, I think you'll agree that it's worth a listen, right? -- not just better than any other one you get a chance to ask me a question about that in the next episode, right away, right now, right after the next one I do a better, right next time? -- by the end of the podcast. I'll be back next week, right here, right in time, I promise you? -- in a few weeks, next week? -- I'll tell you what I'll do better next time! -- -- I mean, next Wednesday? --
Transcript
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I was going to do a podcast on a series of questions, but I got so many questions on
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the same topic that I think I'm just going to do a single response here, and will do
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an Ask Me Anything podcast next time? The question I've now received in many forms goes something
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like this. Why is it that you never criticize Israel? Why is it that you never criticize
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Judaism? Why is it that you always take the side of the Israelis over that of the Palestinians?
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Now, this is an incredibly boring and depressing question for a variety of reasons. The first is
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that I have criticized Israel and Judaism. What seems to upset many people is I've kept some sense
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of proportion. There are something like 15 million Jews on earth at this moment. There
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are a hundred times as many Muslims. I've debated rabbis who, when I assume that they believe
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in a God who can hear our prayers, they stop me mid-sentence and say, why would you think
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I believe in a God who can hear prayers? So there are rabbis, conservative rabbis, who believe
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in a God so elastic as to exclude every concrete claim about him, and therefore nearly every
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concrete demand upon human behavior. And there are millions of Jews, literally millions among
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the few million who exist, for whom Judaism is very important, and yet they are atheists.
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They don't believe in God at all. This is actually a position you can hold within Judaism,
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but it's a total non-sequitur in Islam or Christianity. So when we're talking about the consequences of
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irrational beliefs based on scripture, the Jews are the least of the least offenders.
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But I have said many critical things about Judaism. Let me remind you that parts of the Hebrew Bible,
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books like Leviticus and Exodus and Deuteronomy, are the most repellent, the most sickeningly
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unethical documents to be found in any religion. They're worse than the Quran. They're worse than
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any part of the New Testament. But the truth is, most Jews recognize this and don't take these texts
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seriously. It's simply a fact that most Jews and most Israelis are not guided by scripture,
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and that's a very good thing. Of course, there are some who are. There are religious extremists
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among Jews. Now, I consider these people to be truly dangerous, and their religious beliefs are
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as divisive and as unwarranted as the beliefs of devout Muslims. But there are far fewer such people.
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For those of you who worry that I never say anything critical about Israel,
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my position on Israel is somewhat paradoxical. There are questions about which I'm genuinely undecided,
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and there's something in my position, I think, to offend everyone. So, acknowledging how reckless
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it is to say anything on this topic, I'm nevertheless going to think out loud about it for a few minutes.
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I don't think Israel should exist as a Jewish state. I think it is obscene, irrational,
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and unjustifiable to have a state organized around a religion. So, I don't celebrate the idea that
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there's a Jewish homeland in the Middle East, and I certainly don't support any Jewish claims to real
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estate based on the Bible. Though I just said that I don't think Israel should exist as a Jewish state,
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the justification for such a state is rather easy to find. We need look no further than the fact that
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the rest of the world has shown itself eager to murder the Jews at almost every opportunity. So,
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if there were going to be a state organized around protecting the members of a single religion,
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it certainly should be a Jewish state. Now, friends of Israel might consider this a rather
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tepid defense, but it's the strongest one I've got. I think the idea of a religious state is
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ultimately untenable. Needless to say, in defending its territory as a Jewish state,
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the Israeli government and Israelis themselves have had to do terrible things. They have, as they are now,
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fought wars against the Palestinians that have caused massive losses of innocent life.
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More civilians have been killed in Gaza in the last few weeks than militants. Now,
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that's not a surprise, given that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth.
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Occupying it, fighting wars in it, is guaranteed to get women and children and other non-combatants
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killed. And there's probably a little question over the course of fighting multiple wars that the
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Israelis have done things that amount to war crimes. They have been brutalized by this process,
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that is, made brutal by it. But that is largely due to the character of their enemies. Whatever
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terrible things the Israelis have done, it is also true to say that they have used more restraint in
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their fighting against the Palestinians than we, the Americans and the Europeans, have used in any of our
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wars. They have endured more worldwide public scrutiny than any society has ever had to while defending
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itself against aggressors. The Israelis simply are held to a different standard. And the condemnation
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leveled at them by the rest of the world is completely out of proportion to what they've
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actually done. It is clear that Israel is losing the PR war and has been for years now. One of the
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most galling things for outside observers about the current war in Gaza is the disproportionate loss of
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life on the Palestinian side. This doesn't make a lot of moral sense. Israel built bomb shelters to
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protect its citizens. The Palestinians built tunnels through which they could carry out terror attacks
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and kidnap Israelis. Should Israel be blamed for successfully protecting its population in a
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defensive war? I don't think so. But there is no way to look at the images coming out of Gaza,
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especially of infants and toddlers riddled by shrapnel, and think that this is anything other than a
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monstrous evil. Insofar as the Israelis are the agents of this evil, it seems impossible to support
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them. And there's no question that the Palestinians have suffered terribly for decades under the
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occupation. This is where most critics of Israel appear to be stuck. They see these images, and they blame
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Israel for killing and maiming babies. They see the occupation, and they blame Israel for making Gaza a
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prison camp. Now, I would argue that this is a kind of moral illusion, born of a failure to look at the actual
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causes of this conflict, as well as a failure to understand the intentions of the people on either side of it.
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The truth is that there is an obvious, undeniable, and hugely consequential moral difference between
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Israel and her enemies. The Israelis are surrounded by people who have explicitly genocidal intentions
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towards them. The charter of Hamas is explicitly genocidal. It looks forward to a time based on
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Quranic prophecy when the earth itself will cry out for Jewish blood, where the trees and the stones
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will say, oh Muslim, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him. This is a political document. We are
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talking about a government that was voted into power by a majority of Palestinians. The discourse in the
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Muslim world about Jews is utterly shocking. Not only is there widespread Holocaust denial, there's
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Holocaust denial that then asserts, we will do it for real if given the chance. The only thing more
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obnoxious than denying the Holocaust is to say that it should have happened. It didn't happen,
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but if we get the chance, we will accomplish it. There are children's shows in the Palestinian
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territories and elsewhere that teach five-year-olds about the glories of martyrdom and about the
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necessity of killing Jews. And this gets to the heart of the moral difference between Israel and her
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enemies. And this is something I discussed in the end of faith. To see this moral difference, you have to ask
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what each side would do if they had the power to do it. What would the Jews do to the Palestinians if
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they could do anything they wanted? Well, we know the answer to that question, because they can do more
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or less anything they want. The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that
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mean? Well, it means that when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened
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last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They're not targeting children. They could target as many
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children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming
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an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other non-combatants.
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Now, is it possible that some Israeli soldiers go berserk under pressure and wind up shooting into
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crowds of rock-throwing children? Of course. You will always find some soldiers acting this way in the
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middle of a war. But we know that this isn't the general intent of Israel. We know that Israelis
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do not want to kill non-combatants, because they could kill as many as they want, and they're not
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doing it. What do we know of the Palestinians? What would the Palestinians do to the Jews in Israel
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if the power imbalance were reversed? Well, they have told us what they would do. For some reason,
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Israel's critics just don't want to believe the worst about a group like Hamas, even when it declares the
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worst of itself. We've already had a Holocaust and several other genocides in the 20th century.
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People are capable of committing genocide. When they tell us they intend to commit genocide,
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we should listen. There is every reason to believe that the Palestinians would kill all the Jews in
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Israel if they could. Would every Palestinian support genocide? Of course not. But vast numbers of them,
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and of Muslims throughout the world, would. Needless to say, Palestinians in general, and not just Hamas,
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have a history of targeting innocent non-combatants in the most shocking ways possible. They've blown
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themselves up on buses and in restaurants. They've massacred teenagers. They've murdered Olympic
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athletes. They now shoot rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. And again, the charter of their
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government in Gaza explicitly tells us that they want to annihilate the Jews, not just in Israel, but
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everywhere. The truth is that everything you need to know about the moral imbalance between Israel and
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her enemies can be understood on the topic of human shields. Who uses human shields? Well, Hamas certainly
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does. They shoot their rockets from residential neighborhoods, from besides schools and hospitals
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and mosques. Muslims and other recent conflicts in Iraq and elsewhere have used human shields. They have
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laid their rifles on the shoulders of their own children and shot from behind their bodies. Consider
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the moral difference between using human shields and being deterred by them. That is the difference
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we're talking about. The Israelis and other Western powers are deterred, however imperfectly, by the Muslim
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use of human shields in these conflicts, as we should be. It is morally abhorrent to kill non-combatants if you
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can avoid it. It's certainly abhorrent to shoot through the bodies of children to get at your
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adversary. But take a moment to reflect on how contemptible this behavior is and understand how
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cynical it is. The Muslims are acting on the assumption, the knowledge in fact, that the infidels
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with whom they fight, the very people whom their religion does nothing but vilify, will be deterred by
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their use of Muslim human shields. They consider the Jews to be the spawn of apes and pigs and yet they
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rely on the fact that they don't want to kill Muslim non-combatants. Now imagine reversing the roles
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here. Imagine how fatuous, indeed how comical it would be, for the Israelis to attempt to use human
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shields to deter the Palestinians. Some claim that they have already done this. There are reports that
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Israeli soldiers have occasionally put Palestinian civilians in front of them as they've advanced into
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dangerous areas. That's not the use of human shields we're talking about. It's egregious behavior. No
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doubt it constitutes a war crime. But imagine the Israelis holding up their own women and children
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as human shields. Of course that would be ridiculous. The Palestinians are trying to kill everyone.
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Killing women and children is part of the plan. Reversing the roles here produces a grotesque
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Monty Python skit. If you're going to talk about the conflict in the Middle East,
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you have to acknowledge this difference. I don't think there's any ethical disparity to be found
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anywhere that is more shocking or consequential than this. And the truth is, this isn't even the
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worst that jihadists do. Hamas is practically a moderate organization compared to other jihadist groups.
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There are Muslims who have blown themselves up in crowds of children, again Muslim children,
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just to get at the American soldiers who are handing out candy to them. They have committed suicide
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bombings only to send another bomber to the hospital to await the casualties, where they then blow up all
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the injured along with the doctors and the nurses trying to save their lives. Every day that you read
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about an Israeli rocket gone astray or Israeli soldiers beating up an innocent teenager, you could have read
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about ISIS in Iraq crucifying people on the side of the road, Christians and Muslims. Where is the outrage
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in the Muslim world and on the left over these crimes? Where are the demonstrations 10,000, 100,000 deep
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in the capitals of Europe against ISIS? If Israel kills a dozen Palestinians by accident, the entire
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Muslim world is inflamed. God forbid you burn a Quran or write a novel vaguely critical of the faith,
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and yet Muslims can destroy their own societies and seek to destroy the West, and you don't hear a
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peep. So it seems to me you really have to side with Israel here. You have one side which, if it really
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could accomplish its aims, would simply live peacefully with its neighbors. And you have another side which is
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seeking to implement a 7th century theocracy in the Holy Land. There's no peace to be found between
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these incompatible ideas. That doesn't mean you can't condemn specific actions on the part of the
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Israelis. And of course acknowledging the moral disparity between Israel and her enemies doesn't
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give us any solution to the problem of Israel's existence in the Middle East. Again, granted there
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are some percentage of Jews who are animated by their own religious hysteria and their own prophecies.
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Some are awaiting the Messiah on contested land. Yes, these people are willing to sacrifice the
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blood of their own children for the glory of God, but for the most part they are not representative of
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the current state of Judaism or of the actions of the Israeli government. And it is how Israel deals
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with these people, their own religious lunatics, that will determine whether they can truly hold the
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moral high ground. And Israel can do a lot more than it has to disempower them. It can cease to subsidize
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the delusions of the ultra-Orthodox, and it can stop building settlements on contested land.
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The incompatible religious attachments to this land has made it impossible for Muslims and Jews
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to negotiate like rational human beings, and has made it impossible for them to live in peace. But the
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onus is still more on the side of the Muslims here. Even on their worst day, the Israelis act with greater
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care and compassion and self-criticism than Muslim combatants have anywhere ever. And again, you have
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to ask yourself, what do these groups want? What would they accomplish if they could accomplish anything?
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What would the Israelis do if they could do what they want? They would live in peace with their
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neighbors if they had neighbors who would live in peace with them. They would simply continue to build
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out their high-tech sector and thrive. What do groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda and even Hamas want?
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They want to impose their religious views on the rest of humanity. They want to stifle every
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freedom that decent and educated and secular people care about. This is not a trivial difference.
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And yet, judging from the level of condemnation that Israel now receives, you would think the
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difference ran the other way. This kind of confusion puts us all in danger. This is the great story of
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our time. For the rest of our lives, and the lives of our children, we're going to be confronted by
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people who don't want to live peacefully in a secular, pluralistic world. Because they are
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desperate to get to paradise. And they're willing to destroy the very possibility of human happiness
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along the way. The truth is, we are all living in Israel. It's just that some of us haven't realized it yet.