#405 — ＂More From Sam＂： Tariffs, SignalGate, Trump, Elon, Douglas Murray, & Joe Rogan
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Summary
Jaron Lowenstein, my manager and business partner, sat down with me to discuss the questions we fielded from the community chat at Substack. In this episode, I'm answering questions based on the topics submitted by Subscriber Jaron, and if this goes well, we'll do more of this in the future.
Transcript
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Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if
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Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. We're trying something new here today.
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In this episode, I'm answering questions based on the topics that many of you submitted over on
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Substack. And if this goes well, we'll do more of this in the future. The voice you hear is that of
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my manager and business partner, Jaron Lowenstein. Jaron sat down with me to discuss the questions we
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fielded from the community chat at Substack. I think there were some 4,000 comments, so this is just
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the tip of the iceberg. But many of you have been calling for me to respond more quickly to topical
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events. So that is the experiment we are performing for you today. This is audio from the video that
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we recorded. And subscribers can watch the full video and comment and submit further topics over
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on my Substack page. Enjoy. So let's start with what the hell is going on? How's your stock portfolio,
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Sam? Well, this is looking expensive. I just looked at the Economist cover story editorial,
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which was as bad as withering as you could imagine. They called the day of liberation the
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day of ruination. And yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm not an economist. I just know that the vast
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majority of economists think this is an insane, self-inflicted wound. I guess time will tell,
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but it certainly seems that way. I mean, it's just crazy that one person's fixation on tariffs can
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accomplish this for us. I don't know who really wanted this, but we seem to be running a global
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experiment on the economy. And yeah, I mean, could he be proven right in the end? I guess it's possible,
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but it's against the grain of seemingly all of economic understanding of the last hundred years.
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Well, that's interesting. You said that because one of the things that we're hearing is this idea
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that you wait, you just have to wait, especially from the MAGA people that are now into buy the dip
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and this is all going to be okay. I mean, they were griping about the price of eggs,
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eggs, right? And now, and now, and now they'd give anything to pay $12 for eggs again. Maybe
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that's the move. But what do you, I mean, it sounds like you actually have a glimmer of optimism
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that... No, no, zero optimism. I think it's very likely to be a disaster. I mean, Trump is a fake
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businessman, right? He's a fake business genius. He's a game show host. And somehow the country
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decided, I mean, he was not even a prominent... He's a famous for being famous, nearly fake real
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estate developer, right? Who just had a great talent for going bankrupt and losing other people's money
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and then getting sued and not paying his subs, et cetera, et cetera, right? The least ethical
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businessman anyone's ever met and not a successful one. The irony is now he's probably a legitimate
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billionaire, at least for the next five minutes because of the meme coin he sold to a credulous
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horde of people who bought it simply to support him. And now we have foreign governments that will
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be buying it to support him in an exercise in corruption, the likes of which we have never lived
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through, at least to my knowledge in this country. I mean, it's completely insane that this
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person's ideas about the economy are operative, but is it conceivable that all the economists are
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wrong and that tariffs are going to work or that this thing that he could pull back from the brink
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in a way and look like a winner because he just shocked all of our allies and enemies simultaneously
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with how irrational he could be? I mean, that's totally possible. I mean, the irony for me is that
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it seems like an economic catastrophe is the only thing that stands a chance of convincing his cult
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that they made a bad decision. And I think it's legitimate to worry whether it would even convince
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them in that case. I mean, a global depression might not convince the 30% of Americans who are
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truly in the cult. But, you know, among the people I know who voted for Trump, who really, you know,
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imagined that he, at a minimum, would steward the economy in ways that would be, if not advantageous
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for all of humanity, advantageous for them, you know, I can imagine them recognizing that we all
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made a bad decision or they made a bad decision in supporting him if there's a sufficient economic
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downturn. The painful irony for me is that that's not the reason to have recognized how insane it is
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to have promoted this guy to the highest position of responsibility of anyone in our society. I mean,
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what's insane is that just before he shuffled out to the Rose Garden to announce these lunatic
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tariffs, he was meeting with Laura Loomer about national security in the Oval Office. That's what's
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insane about the Trump administration, right? We have grifters and lunatics and conspiracy theorists
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advising the president on how to manage, you know, risk of nuclear annihilation with Russia and China
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and our other adversaries. I mean, it's just, you know, I mean, to say nothing to the fact that
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you've got RFK Jr. in there promoting anti-vaxxers and firing, you know, half the staff of the FDA and
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who knows who else he's going to fire, it's madness, right? That's the thing to be agitated about. And
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the fact that there could be an associated price tag with it is all too foreseeable. But in my mind,
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if you're going to come to your senses just because your 401k took a nosedive,
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you still haven't pulled your head out of your ass. This is a disaster on a hundred fronts.
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And in two months, Trump has accomplished the unthinkable. He's ruined the reputation of our
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country, perhaps for a generation. He's convinced our allies that they can't possibly trust us,
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right? Because they can't trust us, right? We elected a moral lunatic to the office and he's
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rescinded all of our treaty obligations, effectively, single-handedly. And he's acting like we lost a
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war with Russia, right? Like last I looked, we had won the Cold War. It seems like we've lost it now,
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or we switched sides at the 11th hour. And now he's doing the bidding of a dictator who,
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at the time we're recording this, seems to be playing him for a fool in the negotiations
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vis-a-vis the war in Ukraine. But who knows how that's going to come out. But the fact that we
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have announced to the world that we no longer stand with freedom-loving democracies that aspire to
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live the way we do in the developed world. We no longer stand with open societies against
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naked aggressors. We stand with aggressors because the guy covered in orange face paint may want a
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hotel deal in Moscow one of these days. It's mortifying, right? That's the thing to be agitated
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about. And yeah, so it's just going to be an extra level of annoyance to see an economic calamity
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convince people finally that maybe this was a bad decision.
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I want to go back to the Signal situation with Hegseth. To me, and I want to get your thoughts
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on this, to me, it just, that was the, it was such an easy opportunity for integrity.
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They could have still lied. They could have said nothing, there was nothing classified,
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but there was a fuck up and we're looking into it. And one of us did this and that shouldn't happen.
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And that's embarrassing. And we, we do better. We know better. We're, as you said, anybody would
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have been fired for that. Why is that? And, and going back to the Trump prerequisites that you
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talked about, is it possible, I'm purely making this up, although Griffin said that it was in the,
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his movie, I guess, The Apprentice, that there was a scene that he was talking about this.
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Is it possible that in, in Trump's pre-meeting, he tells everybody, listen, if you fuck up,
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just double down, like, don't ever, like the media will kill you. Don't ever apologize. Just
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fucking lie, lie, lie and stay through it and just believe your story and you'll get through it and
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I'll back you up, but no need to, you know, admit that. And then on, on, on, on that too, I mean,
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I saw, what's her name? Uh, Tommy Lauren had come out who's, uh, she's a right wing or Republican
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pundit had come out and said, listen, guys, just take the fucking L on this. This is easy.
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Just take the L. Like, what, why couldn't they do that? Like, what's, why was that such an easy
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opportunity? And we watched them on the other side ask for the same thing. Why is that so hard
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to, to have just one area where you could fuck up and just say, okay, we, we, it wasn't confidential.
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Again, you keep your lie, but why is it, right? Why couldn't they, is it just, I mean, I don't
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think these people all lack integrity. There must be something. No, no, you can be sure they do. I
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mean, that that's what he's selected for. I mean, no one passes through that, Steve, with integrity.
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It's, uh, well, I mean, it's a famous piece of advice that's, that has been talked about. I'm sure,
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I'm sure it is in actually some of Trump's, uh, fake autobiographies that he didn't write,
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where, that where Roy Cohn gave him the advice that you do never admit a mistake, right? I mean,
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that's, that's the, the, the, the, and you just, you just lie, uh, and change the subject and move
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on, but you never apologize. You never admit, admit that you were wrong about anything, even when it's
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obvious to everybody. And it's part of, you know, the, uh, a generic, you know, authoritarian or,
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or fascist playbook. I mean, paradoxically, the harder the lies are to believe, I mean,
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really the impossible lie functions even better in this kind of environment because it, it functions
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like a loyal loyalty test, right? Like this, this is a, this is code for being in the cult.
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And what it does is it nullifies everybody's efforts to even understand what is going on in
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the world. I mean, this is the, you know, Steve Bannon's point of, you know, flooding the zone with,
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with bullshit. It was, uh, uh, Hannah Arendt's point in, in the origins of totalitarianism that,
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that, that, that, you know, a sufficient amount of lying is not, it's, it's not, it's not designed
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to get people to believe false, these falsehoods. It's designed to get people to believe nothing,
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right? It's to get, is to get them to declare epistemological bankruptcy. So they just, they just
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realize, okay, who knows what's going on in the world. It's not my job to know what's going on
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in the world. I'm just going to be obedient to keep my head down. I'm just going to put a, you know,
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sign in the window, you're claiming to believe the big lie so that no, no one, uh, you know,
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drags me out of my shop and beats me to death on the sidewalk, right? I mean, like that, that's where
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this heads when there are no checks on it, right? That's, this is the, the history of fascism. And
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there's no question that Trump is an authoritarian. He's, he, every, his every inclination is to
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govern as an authoritarian. And his line is, is a principal part of that. I mean, he just lies about
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everything. And he lies in ways that are clearly not meant to successfully deceive anyone. I mean,
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it's crucial to realize the difference, right? You know, when Lance Armstrong is lying about doping,
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you know, in the, in the Tour de France, he is really trying not to get caught, right? He is,
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he is just kind of doing the cognitive math, trying to remember what he said last time.
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You know, he's, he's applying pressure to people covertly. He's trying to keep secret,
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whatever he can keep secret, right? He's having conversations behind closed doors.
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He is trying to get away with it, right? And to be believed. And then finally he, it all kind of
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smashes into a, an obstacle that he can't navigate, right? Which is the fate of many frauds and many
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liars. That is not what Trump is doing. And that is, that is not what Trump has done for decades now.
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He lies in ways that are totally transparent, right? He'll tell you a building he built is 10 stories
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taller than, than it is in fact, right? And all you have to do is stand outside and count the floors.
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It's all bullshit, right? And it's, this is a fascist style. I mean, it doesn't matter when you're a
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fucking game show host, but when you bring it into a government, this is what, this is why people are
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worried about fascism, right? Because this is the, the fact that you can have half of a society
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claiming to believe the unbelievable is terrifying.
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I mean, this is so upside down. The, the, the, the, the right wing has been complaining about George
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Soros funding things, right? That are, that are of interest to people on the far left.
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Now that, that seemed worth complaining about, but now look at what Elon is doing.
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Who's complaining about that? And what Elon is doing is so much more intrusive, so much more corrupt,
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so much more a matter of self-dealing. I mean, he's getting regulators fired who are regulating
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his companies, right? I mean, it's, it's, he's, it's not even on the same part of the map as what
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George Soros has been accused of. And I'm not even sure that all the accusations level that Soros are
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true, but assuming they are true, it's nothing like what Elon is involved in.
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And you think there's no way to steal man Elon for at least his intentions at all at this point?
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Not at this point, because I know what he does when you point out his obvious errors, right?
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Errors that are really harming people's lives. He does nothing about it, right? He doesn't apologize.
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He doesn't correct them. He just tells you to go fuck yourself and he moves on.
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If we ever have, you know, a full eruption of anti-Semitic intolerance in America or, or Western Europe again,
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if we really descend into something awful, much of the responsibility will be on Elon at this point,
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because of what he's done on X, because how he's turned X into a platform for the world's anti-Semites.
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And it's not just anti-Semitism, it's white supremacy, it's, it's fascism, it's, you know,
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every species of bigotry and awfulness. He has made it the preeminent platform for all of that,
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not just the sentiment, but the conspiracy thinking and the lying and the distortion of reality
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that turbocharges all of it. And not only has he done that as a matter of, you know,
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tuning the algorithm and bringing the worst actors back on with great fanfare, you know,
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bringing Nick Fuentes back on and Alex Jones and, but he's done it in, in the way he's personally
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interacted with these accounts and passed on misinformation, right? You know, personally
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to two, over 200 million followers. And when anything, any of this gets pointed out to him,
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he does not care. Right. And so that's, it's in that context that, you know, you have to see
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his, you know, Hitler salutes that are, no one thinks are Hitler salutes. Right. And I don't even
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think they're Hitler salutes. Right. I mean, it's like, it's, it's, it's crazy to think that he
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really was invoking that reference when he said, when he, you know, when he zig heiled twice,
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but the guy is always, if only by accident, promoting Nazis and far right lunatics and
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conspiracists and liars, right? He's not accidentally amplifying trans activists and far left conspiracists
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and liars. So to ascribe it to error seems pretty far fetched. I mean, the error he's never making is
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to criticize the Chinese communist party, right? If he, if he, if he's just a bull in a China shop
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making mistakes everywhere, well, then he would make errors of that kind. He never makes those
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errors, right? He's only amplifying right-wing intolerance and it's completely irresponsible.
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It's unforgivable at this point. And yeah, so, you know, what, what could people do in response?
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I mean, you know, the, the vandalism and violence directed at Tesla is obviously the wrong thing
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to be doing. I mean, one, it's illegal to, it victimizes innocent people who just bought a Tesla
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because they thought it was a great car and, and it is a great car, right? It's like, as they just
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think of, think of someone who stretched to buy a, you know, a nice car and love the car until
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yesterday. And now people are hurling abuse at them or, you know, key in their car or worse, right?
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It's awful. I like it just, that's a, you know, and whoever's doing that, I mean, these are almost
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certainly far left dummies. It's totally counterproductive, but what, what is, would not
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be counterproductive is a full-on boycott of Tesla, right? That would be, you know, insofar as that's
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happening, I think that's a entirely good thing. It sounds like it's happening in Western Europe.
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I would love to see Tesla stock get beaten down to a plausible, you know, price to earnings ratio,
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which is one-tenth of its, of its current value. Because I think that's, you know, I think that
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would be a totally appropriate ethical response to what Elon is doing in the world, right? I mean,
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and it seems to be the only signal that could conceivably matter to him or anyone close to him,
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right? I mean, if you're going to imagine what it would take to rein him in, you know, to have his
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board of directors, one of his board of directors rein him in, it would only be something like that.
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And I'm not even sure he would care at this point. He's got obviously many other irons
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in the fire beyond Tesla, right? He's got SpaceX, he's got other, you know, he'll be spectacularly
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wealthy even if Tesla goes to zero. But it's still, it would, it's the only lawful mechanism
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we have to resist his obviously unethical and I think probably unlawful behavior at this point.
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Well, I want to talk about somebody who's responsible for that in large part and somebody
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who may have gotten Trump elected and somebody who I actually believe that you do believe has
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good intentions and is doing well and means well. And I wonder, I know that your friendship and I'll
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tell you what it is in a second, but one of the things we're thinking about is, would you ever
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have Rogan on your podcast? Yeah, I mean, you know, it hasn't occurred to me, frankly. It would be a hard
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