00:00:51.840welcome back to the show guys uh today is a little bit different of an episode it's just me
00:01:07.580david's been around since 9 a.m so he he's mrs nap and matt is uh getting his ears checked so
00:01:13.960it's just me and we have a great guest before we get into the guest uh business up front join the
00:01:19.720patreon yada yada you know how to do it it's a little bit late in the game to uh come to
00:01:25.240bohemian grove but uh you know you could still do it the the live stream will be on our patreon so
00:01:29.880go over there and check that i will have that available also join the community of people
00:01:33.580add free early listening events you know how we do it um if you do want to come to bohemian grove
00:01:39.800and you are in florida you can still make it go to toplobster.com right there at the top buy
00:01:44.720tickets or buy a t-shirt whatever come hang out and i i wanted to give a special thanks like a
00:01:50.220shout out to to the fans because i checked our youtube we're almost at 30 000 followers that's
00:01:55.920a big deal for us we haven't really been paying attention to the youtube it's kind of like uh
00:02:01.200our second baby but i think that that's really cool this thing is growing i can't explain why
00:02:06.740and i'm really grateful for that but without further ado we have a really fun guest today
00:02:11.340uh alex soren alex what's up man we we've uh we had some words on twitter but now we're here
00:02:18.520kind of face to face and i'm looking forward to the conversation and where it's going to go man
00:02:23.000tell the people a little bit about yourself where they could find you and uh what you do yeah
00:02:28.100likewise uh so my name is alex soren i'm an orthodox christian and a lawyer that's kind of
00:02:32.540my spiel on youtube uh i converted to orthodoxy and adulthood like just under two years ago
00:02:38.940prior to that, I spent a lot of time researching this thing. And I really, I approached it the
00:02:43.640same way I would approach like any of my other case files, like really just going through case
00:02:47.620history and trying to determine like, okay, what happened? Like, what are the facts? And like,
00:02:51.360what does the Bible say about what the church is supposed to be? So I think that ties in well to
00:02:55.620our discussion today on what the true church is. And you can find me on YouTube. I see you have my
00:03:00.340YouTube channel up, just Alex Soren on YouTube or on X or on Instagram. You'll find me at any of
00:03:05.320those places but i'm most active on youtube and x so just alex soren i should be one of the first
00:03:11.160few that pop up it's not a very common name so excellent excellent well again thanks for joining
00:03:16.560me and uh yeah so we had a little bit of a back and forth i was rude uh but you're dealing with
00:03:24.040you're dealing with mr nasty so you know i did also call you a demoniac at one point so i mean
00:03:28.560yeah it's and that's nothing new uh you know a lot of people a lot of people have called us that
00:03:33.980and uh i don't know i guess like time bears time time will pass and then the fruits of that
00:03:40.980insult will will bear out so one of our most recent people that called us a demoniac uh
00:03:47.420timothy alberino or he called us what do we call us fake christians or something to this i think
00:03:51.800you believe that we're fake christians too because of you know the orthodox church and their beliefs
00:03:56.220but uh i don't know it turns out he goes on joe rogan he gets on the rogan show and doesn't even
00:04:00.440talk about jesus so it's like it's a very interesting dynamic which was which was our
00:04:04.060hold up with him but not here to talk about alberino we're here to talk about you and the
00:04:09.940disagreement i guess you saw one of the maybe the memes that i posted i was kind of trashing on the
00:04:15.240orthodox art right uh yes and i think just generally also there was some posts you made
00:04:20.960about uh you thought the orthodox church was anti-christ that there's no salvation in the
00:04:26.360church i mean prior to our interaction there were just a few tweets that you had up on that
00:04:29.960But yeah, it got my attention because, you know, usually it's like, oh, if anybody's talking, you know, kind of trash about the Orthodox Church, it's like, oh, would you like to see if your claims stand up to scrutiny?
00:04:40.320You know, would you like to have a dialogue or a debate or something?
00:04:43.380So, yeah, you definitely got on my radar when you started posting that stuff.
00:04:47.980So my claims, which, again, I don't it's an impossible thing to make.0.83
00:04:53.020It's almost a supernatural claim that salvation cannot be attained within the Orthodox Church.0.70
00:04:58.020Do I necessarily believe that? Not really. But the Orthodox Church does believe that, right?
00:05:07.540Well, salvation in our theology has like many different senses, right? So we believe that you're saved in baptism through the remission of sins and being grafted into God's covenant people.
00:05:18.760We think that you're saved through confession, by confessing your sins, and we think that, like, at the last day, when we stand in judgment in front of the great white throne, we have hope that we, too, will be saved, right?0.99
00:05:30.700So we say that salvation is found only in the Orthodox Church.0.50
00:05:34.300We're talking about, in the most immediate sense, that salvation and that transformation in your heart is found only in the Orthodox Church, right?
00:05:42.240Now, does that mean that the Holy Spirit is not working outside the Church?
00:05:46.060If you look at Cornelius in the Bible, right, Cornelius, the centurion, he prayed to God, he offered alms up to God, and they were received by God.
00:05:55.200But when he encountered Peter and he encountered the church, he recognized that it's God's church right away, and he joined it.
00:06:01.340He didn't go and start his own church.
00:06:03.440Well, that's something that I think we could talk about as well, because that's an interesting scripture where, I guess you're saying that the original church is based on Peter and the proclamation that Christ made to him at Mount Hermon.
00:06:13.660uh yes and also john 20 and uh that's when jesus breathes on the apostles and he says
00:06:23.320whoever sins you forgive are forgiven whoever sins you retain are retained uh and also there's
00:06:28.700a whole cultural milieu about that binding and loosing language in matthew 16 and in matthew
00:06:34.08018 as well when jesus says that to all of the apostles okay which which specific scripture
00:06:39.820i'd like to read them so on john 20 which one are you referring to i think it's like john 20
00:06:44.800verses 20 to 21 okay yeah so we'll pull it up um and when he had when he had said this he showed
00:06:55.500them both his hands and his side and the disciples rejoiced when they saw the lord so jesus said to
00:06:59.620them peace be with you as the father has sent me i also send you up to 23 yeah okay yeah um and when
00:07:06.120he said when he had said this he breathed on them and said to them receive the holy spirit
00:07:09.960if you forgive the sins of any their sins have been forgiven them if you retain the sins of any
00:07:15.500they have been retained uh okay yeah so that's an authority that christ is transmitting to the
00:07:22.920apostles and if you look at another like the foundation of this this uh authority is promised
00:07:29.120by jesus to the apostles you see in matthew 18 and i'll give you the verses here in a second
00:07:36.120it's like verses 18 uh 18 to 20 okay so you can pull it i can read it i guess for the sake of
00:07:43.960time and you can pull it up yeah sure says i tell you the truth whatever you bind on earth will have
00:07:48.580been bound in heaven whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven again i tell you
00:07:52.860the truth if two of you agree on earth about whatever you ask my father in heaven will do it
00:07:56.820for you for where two or three are assembled in my name i am there among them right when jesus is
00:08:02.140saying this he is speaking to the 12 he's speaking to his disciples so this is the promise of
00:08:07.260authority this binding and loosing authority and he follows through on it you see it in matthew's
00:08:12.680mission yeah you guys are thinking that like where two or three are gathered in his name
00:08:17.760you're saying only two of three of the 12 or the 11 at the time i suppose uh at this time it was
00:08:23.280the 12 you know but then of course judas you know unalives himself and then he's replaced by
00:08:28.380matthias but we believe this authority is also passed down through the laying on of hands to
00:08:32.900the bishopric in the church today what is your definition of a saint i don't want i don't want
00:08:39.580this to be a debate i'm just i'm really trying to like because there there are like weird
00:08:43.260definitional terms that i'm i'm trying to parse out that you guys are using and that i feel like
00:08:48.760I'm not having an understanding of. Saint, I think, is a super important term, because if you look at
00:08:54.540the Greek, in the Greek Septuagint and in the New Testament, see that the way Paul uses that term is
00:09:00.460to refer to, like, the holy ones, right? So in the Old Testament, I think in the Greek, it's agioi,
00:09:06.340refers to these, like, spiritual beings that are usually on, like, God's divine counsel or something,
00:09:11.040the holy ones of God. Sometimes that's used to refer to the Israelites as well, and Saint Paul
00:09:16.940uses that same term for the people in the church in the new testament right so we'd say that like
00:09:21.560everybody in god's covenant people are like a small s saint right now there are those among
00:09:27.040us that have lived exceptional lives that we would say uh we are very confident right after
00:09:34.520their due diligence and uh it's like looking through the life of the person that this person
00:09:39.240expressed a holy life so then we canonize them and we honor them in a special way compared to
00:09:44.900the other saints right and we believe that they partake in the first resurrection and that they're
00:09:49.600sitting on god's divine counsel today so we can ask them for their intercessions okay so to my
00:09:55.380understanding a saint is a a person that's set apart a believer in christ a living believer in
00:10:01.140christ and that's the definition of it so there's a strange like when we're we're talking about
00:10:07.980canonizing and praying to saints is that this is like a big hold up for me the dead is the dead
00:10:12.760the living is the living and uh i don't know i also don't this got me in trouble
00:10:18.100if you want to know what got me in trouble initially with the orthodox church once you're
00:10:23.340a little you're a little low i just want to raise your volumes yep okay um what initially got me in
00:10:29.220trouble with the orthodox church was actually a catholic meme which was strange uh it was a
00:10:34.180catholic meme about intercessional prayer which way it goes it's like a square and so you can
00:10:38.600pray to mary you can pray to the saints and then they can pray to god the father and then it says
00:10:42.120you can also pray to god and i just said hey why not just pray to god and uh it it started an entire
00:10:49.400thing where i was like okay i wasn't exactly sure what the orthodox church was about i was friends
00:10:55.360with jay dyer he showed up he actually showed up that's an unfortunate was there sorry to hear that0.81
00:11:01.200no i mean i don't really give a shit but he showed up he showed up to our last well two events ago0.91
00:11:06.180he showed up and uh he was actually when he showed up he was sick but he did show up and0.95
00:11:10.640tried to perform i think he was going to do like a cringe core rap which is funny so uh yeah we
00:11:16.660were friends with jay dyer um and uh we had like you know i'm friends with buck johnson as well
00:11:24.060and other orthodox cath orthodox christians and when i asked them for explanations about orthodoxy
00:11:30.580it always like was reserved because it's a strange it seems like it is a strange religion it seems
00:11:35.820like you guys are holding back you're not necessarily telling a lot of the strange nuances
00:11:40.000that might ask people well what's the difference between catholicism and the orthodox church because
00:11:45.720it looks a lot the same to me but anyway the meme that got me in trouble was that and all i did was
00:11:50.800ask a question and then uh all of orthodoxy jumps down my throat and i'm like well now i'm now i'm
00:11:55.720gonna smack you back we're not gonna like you're not gonna insult me because it's always like you
00:12:00.120know i say wait a second why are you guys praying to saints i thought that that was a catholic thing0.99
00:12:04.320and then they're like well you're a nigger and i'm like okay so now we've got to yeah we've kind of0.99
00:12:09.060got to go back to ground zero and i'm like what do you guys actually believe and then we start0.98
00:12:13.240scratching at the surface this was at the point you probably remember um a couple months ago where
00:12:19.360it was like the whole orthodox baptism thing was going around and that went viral yes it did it
00:12:24.680got a lot of attention it's unfortunate that you know people didn't do more due diligence into that
00:12:29.160but yeah due diligence but like yeah i was kind of at the the ground floor of that because now
00:12:34.600i was asking questions and you know moving things around and another baptist pastor which i
00:12:38.960disagree with also we've had him on the show uh jonathan shelley from the baptist bias he's the
00:12:43.380one that kind of got that meme going and then i started to look into it ifb guy he debated jay
00:12:49.300on sola scriptura like right before that uh after shelley i don't watch debates i don't know why
00:12:54.980he he came on because uh we had a difference of uh of opinion on the sons of seth versus uh
00:13:02.140children's of god children of god that kind of idea so we were talking about you know how the
00:13:06.660Hebrew translates Elohim in the book of Job and so on and so forth, whatever it's a, it was a
00:13:11.480debate, but the reason we don't do debates is because he goes, yeah, I think you're wrong.
00:13:16.720And I go, well, I think you're wrong. And then we just kind of move on, you know, but it's like
00:13:20.140agree to disagree. Yeah. Just whatever. Yeah. You don't agree. So what are we going to talk
00:13:24.520about? I can call you stupid, but that's not necessarily correct. So, um, anyway, he jumps1.00
00:13:29.680in and that ball starts rolling and I didn't, you know, I see a lot going around where the
00:13:35.920orthodox people are saying well that's been thoroughly debunked but i don't think it has
00:13:40.860and also it's not even really a main point of contention for me if you got to make money make
00:13:44.800money we're doing an event fucking show up pay some money but uh the the reasoning for it was
00:13:52.200something like uh well yeah they have to pay the parishioners and they have to pay this person for0.95
00:13:56.520their time and then they have to pay for icons and i guess sacraments and robes and things like
00:14:01.420that and it's like i get it you got to keep the lights on in the church you know this is a regular
00:14:04.920this is a 501c3 idea. And before, you know, people throw out around the insult Protestant,
00:14:11.280or, you know, they call me proddy and shit like that. It's like, that's fine. I'm not a Protestant0.99
00:14:15.020either. I understand the downfalls of that system. And I will say too, I'll let you jump in. But0.52
00:14:20.420that system, you know, it's one that I look at, I was like raised in that system as well.
00:14:28.820And you see all the flaws in it, all the flaws of that system. I was inside of it kind of like
00:14:33.400deep when i was younger i got kicked out you know so i'm familiar with the flaws but if you guys
00:14:39.420were the one true church and they're an offshoot of you it's kind of your fault that there are so0.98
00:14:45.140many denominations because yeah because you guys are fucking up you guys you guys have you guys0.97
00:14:52.360have strayed from the bible in a way that has created this abomination that i do agree with0.99
00:14:56.640you but when i look at the orthodox church i also look at it as an abomination as well1.00
00:15:00.980And I can get into the reason for that a little bit, a little bit later.0.91
00:15:05.780But this episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain.
00:15:13.340Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now.
00:27:53.240Yes. So this is a command from Jesus. Jesus is saying he will make them bow down towards the saints, right?
00:28:15.940So this is a proper veneration of, you know, the saints of God.
00:28:20.400You also have in Genesis, Lot bowed down to the two angels that went and visited him at Sodom, and he was never rebuked for that.
00:28:29.480There was no indication that that was improper.
00:28:32.480It was just like a standard, you know, kind of greeting.
00:28:35.880So in between like these two examples, right, where on one hand it is, there is some inappropriate worship.
00:28:42.400Well, just the question, when does Revelation 3 take place here?
00:28:46.260Like, when is it, when are they talking about?
00:28:48.220Are they talking about the prophetic? Are they talking about within New Jerusalem?
00:28:52.640Are these people, are these saints, glorified body saints or saints that are still alive?
00:28:59.240So on these topics, there's like a range of permissible views in the Orthodox Church.
00:29:04.680So I don't want to come off as like what I'm saying is like the definitive view in the Orthodox Church.
00:29:09.140It's the same thing with Genesis 6. We have a range of permissible views there.
00:29:13.120I think the Enochian view is like one of the permissible views to have within that range.
00:29:18.220For like eschatology and like this passage in particular, the understanding that, you know, I think makes the most sense is that this is like the persecuted church and the saints in glory.
00:29:42.600So in the second temple period, there are like different gradations of veneration and worship.
00:29:49.700And that's why like the distinction between dulia and hyperdulia and latria that the church makes about like 800 years later, that was out of necessity to show that there's like a gradation of different levels of honor you can give somebody.
00:30:04.100Right. So latria, it would be like the highest level of like worship honor that you can give to something that is to God alone.
00:30:10.580that's like a sacrifice of incense or the sacrifice of the Eucharist
00:30:14.260that is the highest form of worship we give that only to God
00:30:17.300asking somebody for help or praising them
00:30:21.640we would say that that's a lower level category that you can give to
00:30:24.940really anybody so if you bow to someone in respect
00:30:28.480in different cultures they do that if you kiss somebody
00:30:32.260we would say that you are honoring that person and that's an appropriate form
00:30:36.500of veneration that doesn't reach that highest level of worship that would
00:30:40.360offend God and the commands we have in his word in the Bible. Right. It just seems like a slippery
00:30:46.100slope, something not to play with it. Like from my studies, I'm doing, I don't even know, like
00:30:54.54016 parts on the idea of worship. I'm a musician, so I'm trying to figure out what worship is as
00:31:00.560it pertains to frequency or alignment with God or even in the other direction. And it appears to me
00:31:07.100that we are kind of uh we're just like entities that are made to worship one thing or another
00:31:15.700and yes worship worship seems like uh it seems like uh the way to avoid sin it's it's in which
00:31:25.980direction you're oriented and in which direction you're paying attention so if at any time during
00:31:31.580the day I don't have my eyes or my thoughts on God, I feel like that is a form of sin. My
00:31:38.140calibration is off. I know you might differ, but if I'm not constantly oriented toward God,
00:31:43.640I am going in a different direction. So when we venerate or pray to a thing, a drawing,
00:31:58.500a dead saint jesus's mother which is another strange one0.98
00:32:03.540how do how do you differentiate this and also isn't that getting like kind of jewy
00:32:09.760like we're like well maybe yeah like like we're we're just kind of like i don't know counting
00:32:14.420sand here when in reality legalistic maybe is that what you're saying no i'm just saying you're
00:32:21.380in danger like a so i had mentioned at the top of the show our disagreement with timothy alberino
00:32:26.860know and it's i don't i'll break it down for you but it is the same idea at heart he uh called us
00:32:34.080retarded because we said aliens are demons we're like big this is a conspiracy show and we also
00:32:39.840love jesus so like yeah there are a few orthodox saints that would agree with you on that i know0.91
00:32:44.700i think father seraphim rose would agree with me right um yeah yeah and again it's it's been an
00:32:50.140unfortunate turn of events because of how people have behaved and what i've gleamed from what
00:32:56.800they're saying, especially, I don't have the screenshots on me, but Jay Dyer's saying you
00:33:00.280can't, salvation is not attainable outside of the Orthodox Church. I say, well, now we have a big
00:33:04.560problem. And you should have that too, growing up in a Pentecostal church. I'm sure that you've met
00:33:10.000people that are, you know, examples of God's faith within that church, but neither here nor there.
00:33:18.720I guess, yeah, going back to the aliens or demons things, the issue that he had was
00:33:23.660you're you're you're sweeping with too broad of a brush and we're not defining the insectalines
00:33:29.540from the reptilians from the grays and i was like okay well you know and he's also a christian so i
00:33:34.720said well biblically speaking there is no gray ground there's no middle ground they'll spit you
00:33:40.260out of his mouth if you're lukewarm you're either for god or against god especially when we're
00:33:44.420talking in in the in the heavenly realm in the i guess the elohim realm there is there are two sides
00:33:50.660none can remain neutral and we read in uh i think second kings or judges i forget exactly where the
00:33:57.660the country of miraz remained neutral and they were punished for not backing israel at the time
00:34:03.740that god asked them to check that out that that's also an interesting one i'd like to hear what the
00:34:08.580orthodox have to say about miraz some people think it's a planet i don't know but the point being is
00:34:15.000that okay you're going on and and and at that point he was on the trajectory to go on rogan
00:34:21.740he was he was just on like big daily wire show so i'm like you're going on these shows
00:34:26.200and you're somewhat preaching the gospel of jesus christ or at least you should be pointing back to
00:34:31.840christ in some meaningful fashion which is another issue that i had with dyer going on
00:34:36.120tucker that was absent and i don't know you're pointing people towards an institution rather
00:34:42.840than Jesus Christ himself, it could be a little bit of an issue. But he wants to define terms
00:34:50.540and count sand. And I go, that's going to get a lot of people in trouble, man.
00:34:55.100Like we need to, but maybe it would be better to blanket term this and say, hey,
00:34:59.720don't even play around with this. You know, these things are of a malevolent nature.
00:35:05.740Don't look at them, get away from them. When you see them, rebuke them, move on.
00:35:10.160same thing with icons idols veneration saints i don't know i've i've read some stuff where uh
00:35:19.000i i've read that the catholic church has integrated some of these saints because they
00:35:23.060were picking up pagan cultures and they wanted that to be appealing to people so they put that
00:35:27.420in there and i'm not really a fan of poking around and seeing what's what i've already been like you
00:35:34.140know we've been touched by the supernatural me in magnificent ways and i've been you know i've been
00:35:40.760a victim of witchcraft in some ways like the stories get crazy but they're real they this
00:35:45.640this stuff happens uh so i'm like i'm not really interested in playing around with this and it
00:35:51.180seems like that's what is happening here which is why i'm against it yeah in our view i think the
00:35:57.940boundary between the scene and unseen realm is porous i think like you were describing that
00:36:03.420there obviously are things going back and forth uh that said we're told in the scriptures that
00:36:08.940you know the church is trustworthy that the church is the pillar and ground of the truth
00:36:14.540and uh that the church you know instructs you in some way that you have to follow what the church
00:36:19.660says like it's not optional to follow what the church says right so this that kind of begs the
00:36:24.780question but like what is the church right what exactly does that mean well that's why i brought
00:36:29.740up these passages on authority earlier the power to bind and lose because you see the only way
00:36:34.780really those terms could have been understood within the second temple period milieu is within
00:36:41.820a chain of authority so there's a jewish tradition at the time that you see uh even through their own
00:36:47.580documents like the mishnah which i think is like the earliest document they have trying to record
00:36:52.380these like second temple period uh traditions it's called smika which refers to like a chain
00:36:58.140of authority and ordinations through the laying on of hands from one line through the Aaronic
00:37:04.260priesthood from Aaron to the Levites to the priesthood that you see at the time. And then
00:37:09.720another one through Moses, through the laying on of hands, who was laying hands on Joshua and on
00:37:14.540the 70 elders that you see in numbers and also in Exodus, there's a version of it. So you see a
00:37:21.380passing down through of like judicial and priestly authority that goes all the way down to the
00:37:27.360Pharisees and to the priesthood at the time of Christ.
00:37:30.940So that's why you see in Matthew 23 and throughout the gospels,0.64
00:37:34.280like Christ just accuses the Pharisees of like being hypocrites.
00:37:37.020And he says that their interpretations and their application of the law is
00:37:41.620wrong, but he never says to people to not obey the Pharisees.
00:46:46.960Right away we see, like, a three-tiered office already in the letters to St. Timothy.
00:46:51.280thing um but i mean the church as an institution it is the body of christ it is not in our view
00:46:58.720just a man-made institution it is the fullness of christ that's where you find christ is in his
00:47:04.640church and we see time and again throughout the scriptures like multiple times in the new testament
00:47:09.800uh in the old testament you have the first schismatic who decided to go start their own
00:47:15.020faction was cora and that did not end well for cora he ended up going to hades you know swallowed
00:47:20.600it up right there by the earth. In Galatians 5, St. Paul says that he's talking about the fruits
00:47:27.480of the flesh, and he's contrasting them with the fruits of the spirit, and he says among the fruits
00:47:31.680of the flesh are factions and dissensions, and that factions will keep you out of the eternal
00:47:38.060kingdom. So you cannot go and like start your own church or set up your own altar, and this is how
00:47:43.860the earliest Christians also understood this. So if there's like an elder somewhere that sets up
00:47:49.980his own altar uh contrary to like what the bishops say or what the councils say at that time whoever's
00:47:56.620like the the church government then they're part of a faction they are a sectarian they're no longer
00:48:02.640in the church their salvation is in like grave danger so i understand like the concerns that
00:48:08.320you have for us because i mean uh and from the outside looking in i understand the veneration
00:48:14.000stuff uh you know might be like strange or weird or like different especially from a western
00:48:21.340context i just want to be clear i don't necessarily have concerns for your salvation uh i'm a bad
00:48:26.120i'm a bad christian in that sense where i'm not like a guy that's going to be doing you know
00:48:31.180evangelical outreach um i'm worried about my salvation that's hard enough for me every single
00:48:37.060day is it yeah this is and and it should be for everybody else too you wake up and you know that
00:48:42.000you're already doing something wrong or your thoughts are somewhere else this just happens
00:48:46.220constantly once i open up twitter so i'm worried about me right my concern is not necessarily about
00:48:51.260you my concern is about uh telling other people this which i don't believe to be true telling
00:48:58.760other people that we have found the one way this is the one way we do it and by the way this is
00:49:02.900what we do here we're burning incense we're i mean the orthodox prayer to mary is a little
00:49:07.940staggering too well let me let me close out this idea real quick and then we can get to that i was
00:49:12.620a little bit long-winded there but i'll get to the point here is that uh so at every single liturgy
00:49:18.260we do pray for the whole world we're offering up the eucharist as a sacrifice for the whole world
00:49:24.080we believe jesus died for the whole world right so we are praying for everybody to be saved we're
00:49:29.760hopeful that uh everyone will be saved you know we're not universalists but i mean if you have
00:49:34.820an option to hope we would hope for everybody we don't want anybody to end up in eternal torment
00:49:39.200although it's like a real possibility so and we also believe in praying for the dead we have a
00:49:45.040saint saint verus who is uh in particular for the praying for the saint of praying for the dead who
00:49:51.040have died outside the church so we believe that even though uh they die outside the church and
00:49:57.700you know they end up in hades right shale uh that does not necessarily mean that they will end up
00:50:03.440in Gehenna because although you can't repent you know after your soul leaves your body you can still
00:50:08.520be forgiven so we're hopeful that at the final judgment God who Saint Paul says he desires for
00:50:14.960every man to be saved right like thank goodness he has this inclination to save to towards salvation
00:50:20.540for us right that he'll be a fair judge for everybody at the end so and if you look at what
00:50:26.940the judgment is at the final judgment every single every single time it's mentioned whether
00:50:30.780it's revelation 20 or romans 2 it says that they will be judged according to their deeds
00:50:35.360so i mean for some people the orthodox church is just not available to them or they were taught
00:50:40.900something different their whole life we believe that god will be a fair judge in those circumstances
00:50:45.080and although their participation in the first resurrection that might be limited i think at
00:50:50.540the final judgment that god will be a fair i'm a lawyer i've been in front of many judges a lot of0.78
00:50:55.820them really smart a lot of them also dumb as rocks right i trust god to be the best judge
00:51:01.940uh out of all of them and to look at the totality of the circumstances for each person0.97
00:51:06.380so i think that's that's kind of the orthodox view on like salvation outside the church it's
00:51:12.800something i think about too we we've discussed on the show a bunch um this idea let's say
00:51:17.080somebody's had 20 years on earth and they get taken out and now they have to sit in the judgment
00:51:23.120seat versus somebody who's had 70 years on earth and they're old they're both sinners but it's like
00:51:29.800man like i hope that that younger kid gets great on a curve because i know when i was 20 right like
00:51:34.980i was kind of like how could you i couldn't possibly start to fathom even this conversation
00:51:40.060or this i the idea of christ and and the sacrifices one until i had children and two
00:51:45.520probably until i was like over 30 you know like that's when your brain starts to actually work
00:51:50.580in a functioning way yeah i agree yeah so but but again god is a god of justice so everything that
00:51:56.100he does is righteous and perfectly balanced so yeah we have to assume that i i'm not going to
00:52:00.840get mixed up in the idea of uh praying for the dead i i think dead is dead i think that uh jesus
00:52:07.280jesus told a parable of that where uh there's a man on the other side he's like yeah you can't
00:52:11.260reach him there that's that's it that's it you can't give him advice but whatever it doesn't
00:52:16.140really matter to me you know dead is dead we need to reach the people that are here now that are
00:52:19.760alive um but i do want to talk about that for a moment sorry i don't want to interrupt but
00:52:25.240yeah and from the the orthodox view we see that uh like before christ uh in his resurrection and
00:52:31.360the harrowing of hades that the landscape of you know metaphysical reality was like quite different
00:52:38.240that this is what saint john talks about when he talks about the first resurrection when your soul
00:52:42.460leaves your body the righteous they no longer go to hades right like king david he's not in hades
00:52:48.660he's you know he's taken out of Hades by Christ right and he's in heaven now on God's divine
00:52:53.900counsel that's what we call like the first resurrection the second resurrection is the
00:52:58.200resurrection of everybody physically where they have the the final judgment right so it's in our
00:53:04.040mind it's like weird to say that the righteous who have passed on that they are dead because they are
00:53:09.020like in the presence of life itself right like God is the source of life so if you're like standing
00:53:15.100before him in his throne room from the orthodox like orthodox ears it's like very strange to hear
00:53:20.860that and uh i think that there's like a really good verse on this and john 11 verse 25 it's about
00:53:28.340lazarus and like right before christ resurrects him this episode is brought to you by spreaker
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00:54:17.100to talk to yourself for an hour you might as well publish it uh i'll start from verse 24 i'll just
00:54:22.780read it says martha said to him jesus i know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last
00:54:28.280day and jesus said to her i am the resurrection in the life he who believes in me will live even
00:54:35.100if he dies everyone who lives and believes in me will never die ever do you believe this and i think
00:54:43.040that john here writing this i think he's talking about like i think breaking the fourth wall a
00:54:47.760little bit to the reader it's like do you believe this right so i think that's a question we all
00:54:52.120have to ask ourselves you know that if you believe in christ if you do what he says you believe in
00:54:57.220him and you believe him right if you're uh you know repenting of your sin if uh you're doing what
00:55:04.400uh god instructed us to do in baptism and being joined to his covenant people right that you will
00:55:10.160never die ever it doesn't say that it says if you believe in me yeah so we take you know we're never
00:55:16.620not the whole bible right so if you believe in him you're also going to believe what he commands
00:55:21.180and you're going to do what he says right so in like john chapter 2 for example when he says that
00:55:26.040you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless you're born again of water and of the spirit
00:55:29.740i think that's a very obvious reference to baptism that's how the church has interpreted it
00:55:35.340that's how the early christians saw it so uh and again like as an interesting one like god's gonna
00:55:41.720judge us based off our certainly fairly based off our circumstances and what we know right so like
00:55:46.360the thief on the cross obviously he had no opportunity to go get baptized after he repented
00:55:50.980right so i think we can have faith and hope in god that he's going to be fair but that we still
00:55:56.360have to do what he says and again this is a very interesting thing right like if i am not orthodox
00:56:03.580um and i never will be at this point but i live a life aimed at christ everything that i do even
00:56:10.760my business is aimed at christ i am baptized i preach the word of god to people that want to
00:56:17.980hear it i joke around a lot too but um this is like you know this is how i'm living um and it
00:56:24.920doesn't really matter to me what other people think, whether I'm going to hell or not, or the
00:56:29.740state of my salvation. I just find it interesting, especially when we're like kind of intermingled
00:56:34.440in a weird way. And it's like, it's never like, it's never stated outright until the rubber hits
00:56:43.400the road, where these people who are kind of like my colleagues or my peers, Jim Bob, Jim Bob's been
00:56:49.360following me for years. He loves what I do until recently. Jay Dyer, the same sort of thing. Andrew
00:56:55.300Wilson also was a follower of mine for a little while until he blocked me. That's fine. Because
00:57:00.060just this one little crux there. And then I have to, I don't like to do it, but then I have to look
00:57:04.700at the state of my life versus the state of theirs and which way I'm walking and what I'm doing.
00:57:10.240And then I'm going to be told by somebody else, a chain smoker possibly, that, oh no, you're not
00:57:15.560gonna and i don't know like this this verse right here jesus said to her uh if you believe in me
00:57:22.180you'll never die do you believe the i believe that i believe what jesus said
00:57:27.020and uh i don't know there's a lot of other stipulations that are putting put on this
00:57:32.460not not even not necessarily necessarily within the bible i like to review some of those scriptures
00:57:36.680at another time where they're talking about all the you must be baptized and i get that
00:57:40.980you should be baptized. And then, you know, salvation through faith, but then you should
00:57:45.580also have the works, right? Yes. Because if you are saved, then it should show, the fruit should
00:57:49.940show. Yeah. And it's a, in our view, it's a synergistic relationship. So the more faith you
00:57:55.500have, the more works you'll do. And the more works you do, your works also feed your faith. So it
00:57:59.620goes back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I say something similar. Like, it's like, why would I
00:58:04.980not why would i not do this thing every time i feed this it feeds me back tenfold so it's like
00:58:10.960it's almost uh self-serving at at this point because like you know you kind of know and i
00:58:16.600guess you know it's a little trick that people got to figure out in their life that if they do
00:58:19.840this thing then they're but i'm not here for the earthly gains like that's not necessarily what i
00:58:25.680want um what i want i've been explicit actually on the last couple of shows it's it's a very
00:58:31.080interesting take. I wonder what you think about it. It's like making not just a covenant with
00:58:36.520God, but making an agreement like, hey, I've dedicated my life to you. I'm dedicating my
00:58:41.740life to you. Whatever I have here is yours, not this stuff. Who cares about me? That's yours. I
00:58:47.160don't necessarily want anything physical, but what I do want is what I want desperately for my
00:58:51.540children. How do you plant that seed for the generations to come? That's the most important
00:58:56.920thing, not about what I can do now or what I could even leave them, although that would be nice.
00:59:03.300And yeah, that's kind of where my mind's been at a lot lately. Like, how do I keep witches out of
00:59:08.600my family going forward? How do I have children that embrace the Lord, whether it's in orthodoxy
00:59:15.020or, you know, Pentecostalism or whatever? How do I have children that do love God and that do
00:59:21.420believe in this, that do believe in me and then won't die later. That's what I'm concerned about.
00:59:28.920And then I come online to people who I think should be, uh, spreading this idea. And instead
00:59:37.020I get a debate. I get to like, and, and I've been doing this for a long, like I've been doing this
00:59:42.760show for a while, but I've been online. I mean, you know, within the realm of podcasts for over
00:59:47.880a decade. I've worked for all the people that you can think of, whether it's graphic design or
00:59:52.720helping them do production. I'm familiar when somebody's trying to debate me. And this is what
00:59:57.640I get constantly with these people. And I'm like, well, where is God? Where is God in this
01:00:04.980conversation? No one's concerned about this. You want to slip me up on a question or you want to
01:00:10.320take a Bible verse and make it say what you want? I'm not really interested in that. I'm interested
01:00:15.460in this in the end of the day and i'm not getting any of that from and you know i dealt with jim bob
01:00:20.000kind of harsh because of that because he approached me in that way you didn't approach me in that way
01:00:24.980and i was like okay i'd like to talk with alex a little because he you were asking questions and
01:00:28.960it seemed genuine like you were actually asking me i appreciate that i was genuine it's it's hard
01:00:34.600to tell you know when you're being yeah i don't blame you yeah yeah especially on online it's just
01:00:39.560words so like you're reading text and i've already been uh debate raped a couple of times by a couple
01:00:43.920people so i'm like looking around and i was like wait a second i think i might have misjudged this
01:00:47.380guy let me let me talk to him a little bit um but yeah why why is that why does that become the
01:00:52.220culture of the the orthodox the orthodox church or orthodoxy the face of it in general and
01:00:59.100protestantism has that too i know like that that guy avery is out there debating people and0.67
01:01:03.660there's a couple of other people that are just fucking debate um why do you why do you think0.78
01:01:10.340that that's taken over and uh do you understand like how it leaves a bad taste in people's mouth0.88
01:01:16.160yeah i think there's a bit of an over correction in response to um i think probably what started
01:01:23.300off in like wokeism and in the universities as like uh you know this political correctness0.64
01:01:30.600you can't say the retard word or things like like this uh very like motherly kind of patronizing0.75
01:01:37.800uh like talking down to especially with young men and that's why i get this part of the orthodoxy i0.67
01:01:43.680get i like that uh that hard nose side of it they're using it against me which is hilarious
01:01:49.080because like the background that i've come from i'm like yo dog i said let's give it right back
01:01:52.460yeah yeah i'm not gonna say it back and again at this point because it's like i don't know if you
01:01:56.400look at my past like i've already done all that and i'm not going to be somebody else's n-word
01:02:00.540say or just to say it but i'm like okay i see what you're doing here you've uh you've assessed
01:02:05.480that i have insulted you in a way and now you've crossed the line to a point where you think that
01:02:09.720i can't cross it i can't meet you yeah it's like jokes on you buddy yeah jokes on you we could all
01:02:14.960do it but it's like i'm at the point in my life where i'm like i could but why like i'll yeah if
01:02:20.520if the term is used to like really like a punt deliver a punchline cool but if it's just to say
01:02:25.520that i'm not going to say it back so i do respect that aspect of of uh i wonder how you guys square
01:02:32.400that as well like being inside of this uh structured church but then also stepping outside
01:02:38.860of it to really like you know make a point and i like that i like that idea but i feel like it's
01:02:45.320just only that idea there's no there you're missing this other side of it you know uh honestly i have
01:02:52.540literally no disagreement with you at all on that i think uh and jay has said this too also cleave
01:02:58.740to antiquity i think jim bob alt like numerous times has said that there is no online orthodoxy
01:03:03.900there's no such thing it doesn't exist orthodoxy is something that you live and that you participate
01:03:10.320in when you go to you know your local parish and you worship in the divine liturgy and you have a
01:03:14.780priest or a spiritual father who you talk to him about you know the sins that you're struggling
01:03:19.040with and you know like a doctor and like a father he'll direct you and like give you maybe sometimes
01:03:24.780some medicine like hey you need to fast a few more times during the week that way you have
01:03:28.620more control of your body so that you know when you're tempted to look at something inappropriate
01:03:32.760online you have the the wherewithal to stop yourself right um so online orthodoxy is really
01:03:39.820like this is just it's not online orthodoxy it's just a discussion about like dogmatics or church
01:03:45.760history or theology or something it is something totally separate from what being an orthodox
01:03:52.520christian is uh saint gregory of nazianzus uh he has like a very high status in our church he has
01:04:00.180this title the theologian so basically you have to believe his theology and we honor him very highly
01:04:04.880and he has these like five theological orations uh the first two basically the first two he talks
01:04:12.520about who shouldn't be doing theology and that you shouldn't be doing theology all the time
01:04:16.620You should only be like engaging in theology when it's necessary, right? If you have to correct somebody or to correct an enemy of the church, to correct some sort of misconception. And I think that's the attitude that we try to have, too.
01:04:33.580The thing is, in America today, there are like no Orthodox, like it's a very small percentage of the population, right?
01:04:41.520So almost every Christian that we're talking to is like, well, they don't really get the Orthodox point of view because it is.0.76
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01:10:17.320churches but that is that is a huge problem like nepotism within there it's like i don't know
01:10:21.240this guy's a pastor and his kid's a youth pastor here it's like well we'll call it
01:10:25.560yeah and it's not just qualifications but like is this is this led by because maybe that does
01:10:34.600happen but you know we've seen a lot i think one of the recent mega pastors just made his wife well
01:10:41.320he he cheated on one wife then divorced her then got another one and he made her an apostle so it's
01:10:45.960These are blaring examples. I know. But it also doesn't make orthodoxy look like, you know, look at them.
01:10:53.200Each church has its own administrative problems, right? Each assembly of believers, they have, like, we're not saying that we're a perfect church by any means.
01:11:02.300We're just saying that we are the church that Christ founded. That doesn't excuse us from the human element.
01:11:08.020Whenever you get people together, you're going to see sin, corruption, spiritual warfare against the church.
01:11:14.480it's just our view of the church is that like yes
01:15:22.240Actually, I wanted to talk about this earlier because you mentioned about these claims that were unchanging.
01:15:28.620And the claim is, let me clear this up, that in the things that matter, we are unchanging.
01:15:34.760Of course, on tertiary issues, each bishop will tailor the liturgy in certain ways, but it's always going to have the same fundamental structure, and that is never going to change.
01:15:46.240We received that structure, you know, we believe from the apostles and that it's an inheritance from how they would worship in the synagogues, right?
01:15:55.700And some aspects of like temple worship as well, that we believe we inherited that from the apostles.
01:16:00.440That doesn't change in our views, like those fundamental things.
01:16:03.860Now, that said, like we have these like call and answer prayers where, you know, the priest will say something like he'll pray for the leaders of the land and then the choir or the people respond, you know, Lord have mercy here.
01:16:18.080And then they'll go on through that. Like maybe they'll change one. Maybe they'll leave one out.
01:16:21.940Maybe they'll put another one in. Right. So there are like always these like little changes that are part of this dynamic, small tree, small tea tradition.
01:16:29.920but the big tea tradition we believe that's like the work of the holy spirit inside the church
01:16:36.440and that will never change right so that would include the structure of the liturgy uh the dogmas
01:16:42.700from the ecumenical councils right when when the whole church speaks on something we think like
01:16:47.520that's that is the holy spirit working through the church and it's just as much god's word as
01:16:52.400the bible is it's the same spirit informing both of those so uh we believe that the church is like
01:16:59.080alive today and that you still participate in it and yes there are changes throughout the years but
01:17:04.440those changes don't affect the substance of our worship and what we believe okay all right that's
01:17:11.080fair listen man i i'm enjoying the conversation because it has been extremely hostile if i may
01:17:18.520uh toward these people and i'm like i really have no other choice but to but to be this way it's
01:17:22.840like almost like a defensive mechanism because you're kind of being ridiculous but i enjoy
01:17:27.880talking to someone who is explaining these things again i i don't necessarily agree on a lot of uh
01:17:34.680a lot of the stuff but i i enjoy it i want to ask you me too the uh the art this is what we came
01:17:42.120down at yeah yeah and it's a little bit tongue-in-cheek uh but i kind of do mean it some of
01:17:48.680it isn't it's it's just not good and it's it's in the style of something traditional uh traditional
01:17:55.240eastern art which kind of does look like some weird uh hindu art that i've seen previously as
01:18:01.880well but like why do they do that why do you keep doing that and then do i have to say that it's good
01:18:09.720if like structurally it you know the anatomy doesn't work so uh michael garden is a guy who's
01:18:20.840like studies this pretty in depth uh i've had the privilege to talk to him at length about some of
01:18:25.800this stuff and the style of art that you see seems to have been derived from like egypt and probably
01:18:32.400like hellenistic jews around that second temple period uh and that it's a continuation of this
01:18:38.100iconography that you see in like ancient synagogues uh throughout like mesopotamia and even like syria
01:18:44.580and turkey uh the style of iconography where you see like there's the famous dura europis synagogue
01:18:50.480which is like it seems almost tattooed like from head to toe like culvert in art and icons right
01:18:56.300um so that style of art it was adopted by the early christians and maintained in a way
01:19:02.960uh to try to maintain the appearance of the apostles and in the sense that even if you read
01:19:08.980like saint irenaeus like with everything they tried to like mess with it as little as possible
01:19:14.120tried to maintain everything right so when you see in the byzantine empire that it like kind of
01:19:19.060maintained this style of art it's from that spirit of like we just we don't want to touch it we don't
01:19:24.640want to mess with it just like leave it that way and like just just leave it alone right now you
01:19:29.420see in russia there's like maybe some more realistic uh style of icons uh we would say
01:19:35.540that's like a western influence right because you will never see in a orthodox church you go in like
01:19:39.900in the sistine chapel and you go in and you see like naked people all over say what is this you
01:19:45.300You know, this is, according to anatomy, it's probably a bit more correct than, you know, the stylized art you see from the Byzantine or Orthodox tradition.
01:19:55.900But for us, it's really, this might sound a little cheesy, but what the icon represents, right?
01:20:01.000So in the same way, you'd be like, oh, I don't like the style of this Bible.
01:20:13.060You see, it's more about what the icons represent.
01:20:15.060So like the resurrection icon, it's like Christ, you know, in Hades, like pulling Adam by his wrist, like out of the grave and like pulling Eve out of the grave with a wrist.
01:20:25.060And it's like it might not meet your sensibilities for like art stylistically, but it's it's what matters is what that represents and what we can learn from it.
01:20:34.240Right. So there's like a whole theology of icons that we have in the Orthodox Church.
01:20:37.980There's even heretical icons. You cannot have this icon. This kind of depiction is not how you're supposed to talk about God or the saints or anything. And the way we see all of the saints in their icons is the reason why they're venerable and why we have icons is because of the work of Christ in their life.
01:20:56.760So ultimately, yes, there's this foreground of we're honoring the saint or there's this biblical story that's depicted or Christ or the mother of God.
01:21:07.980But at the end of the day, the reason why the saints and the mother of God, they receive our honor and our veneration is because of the work of Christ in them.
01:21:16.980I get it. Listen, man, I was I was just poking fun and it is kind of hard to defend some of the art.
01:21:21.820I'm like, this is not, but, uh, yeah, that's a, again, an admission. It's like a little bit of
01:21:27.680a low blow. Cause I'm like, all right, well, we can, we can go here and we can have a little bit
01:21:32.060of fun with this. I understand why you do that. And I understand the tradition of drawing it this
01:21:36.980way. I did again, I don't agree with it. I think it could be a little bit dangerous. Um, and I'm
01:21:42.520definitely not going to do it. I don't know if, I don't know why, if it's like, maybe it's just
01:21:45.840not in my culture or something uh something inside of me screams danger when i see a lot of
01:21:53.000a lot of this stuff actually can i ask you a question this is like a yeah that's why why
01:21:57.920why is it always like uh this kind of thing with the fingers you know like there's like one in
01:22:03.840and every single one i've seen it's uh the acronym of christ uh let me look it up it's uh
01:22:12.100shoot uh basically it's like ik uh something i can't believe i'm blundering on hold on let me
01:22:21.760look it up real quick that's a good question because there is a meeting behind that no that's
01:22:29.460fine i did ask uh my friend got married in the greek orthodox church and i asked one of the
01:22:34.900priests and he like he's like i was like shook me off i was like no i'm asking i was like what's
01:25:29.360What, what do you think is going on there?
01:25:31.580I think you're right that there is a demographic of like disaffected kind of men, maybe in
01:25:39.800libertarian, maybe even in like the Wignett kind of culture today that, you know, some
01:25:45.600of them do tend to go towards the orthodox church that is uh uh i think something i've seen they're
01:25:52.680uh a minority i wouldn't say they're it's like most of them but i would say that it is a key
01:25:58.380demographic they're a notable demographic it's people that are high in like a trade of organization
01:26:04.860like order they they desire it and they they end up in orthodoxy now people who yeah i can see that
01:26:11.900yeah and and i like those type of people i i think that there could be a little bit of a lack
01:26:17.720of creativity within that that like personality type i'm not that person very type a yeah yeah
01:26:24.780yeah and and useful for like a lot of things but you need you need all the body of christ to do
01:26:29.600something so for me i'm like i'm more of a spontaneous guy and i don't necessarily belong
01:26:33.960to any denomination but i i read the bible every day and i try my best to understand this and try
01:26:39.560to walk with God. So I'm like, I'm just a little bit, I'm different. This does not fit me.
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01:27:30.860publish it i would say to that group of young men that of course yes obviously they are welcome in
01:27:37.700orthodox church but you should not be joining the orthodox church for your politics or you think
01:27:43.460they have good politics or you like what some of their saints said about race the reason you're
01:27:48.580joining the orthodox church is because you think christ is there that's why you should be joining
01:27:53.380the orthodox church is because you want to meet christ and ultimately the church like god transforms
01:28:00.020you through the church right through your repentance through your confession through like
01:28:04.820making things right with the people around you and like showing love to the people around you like
01:28:10.900this is how god works in the world he works through people right he works through things
01:28:15.540you see it throughout the bible um so i'd say like to that of course they should be welcomed
01:28:21.540into the church but this is why we have a one-year catechism right so if they're in it for the wrong
01:28:25.300reason they'll probably drop out at some point because it's a pretty big commitment to make
01:28:29.540for one year just because you like what somebody said about race realism or politics you know yeah
01:28:37.380yeah and again that's not a that's like kind of like an argument of like well what about abortion
01:28:42.100that happens through you know through rape it's like well that's a i'm not i'm not saying that
01:28:46.260that's everybody but it that that is a little bit of the case just and it's not always the case
01:28:51.140either like there are people that do come through this political realm and they go into orthodoxy
01:28:55.620And I look at them and I'm like, I can see a legitimate change in this person. Or you can see there's something about when somebody embodies Christ, when they when they have this light of Christ and when they receive salvation, you can tell it comes off of them.
01:29:08.660Even if it's like online, you're like, whoa, something different about you, you know, and that certainly does happen. And then there are other people for the wrong.
01:29:15.600but you know i don't want to i don't want to necessarily focus on that um i guess i'll i'll
01:29:22.920i'll tell you just one more story and then i want to respect your time and uh get you out here i'd
01:29:27.800like to talk to you again maybe with my uh my co-hosts are here one of them popped in but he's
01:29:32.180he's doing some stuff um yeah i'd enjoy that yeah so uh that like how how i met jay dyer and this is
01:29:40.160a good it's a good example of what happened um and and like why my my disposition toward you guys is
01:29:48.760uh not friendly so jay i i reached out to him and i'm like hey do you want to come on the show
01:29:55.340uh because he's you've written multiple books about occult hollywood and conspiracy and like
01:29:59.520that's right up our lane that's in with the theme of the show yeah sure the show is mostly conspiracy
01:30:04.520comedy but you know we we actually do have another show called straight bible where me and uh the
01:30:09.540owner of this coffee shop. He does. He reads the Bible. We break it down. We cross reference
01:30:13.900scripture. And I'm sure that you'd call it heretical. But we so heretical is sorry, I don't0.99
01:30:21.420mean to interrupt, but it's a heretical is a very specific thing. Right. So heretical is like
01:30:25.260when somebody ought to know better and they're instructed as to what the proper doctrine is,
01:30:31.440yet they're obstinate about it and they're like prideful in their own intellect and knowledge.
01:30:36.640So this is what St. Vincent of Laurent says about origin of Alexandria, that he got taken away with his own intellect and pride. He became obstinate to correction and he fell into error. So like the grandma down the street who like doesn't know anything about she's not a heretic. She can't be. She doesn't know anything to the contrary. She's just the misinformed Christian in our view.
01:30:59.980but so that's a bit of a bunny trail i just i think that's like an important we do even on our0.70
01:31:04.800side i think people use it too regularly but it is a weighty term right to call somebody heretic so
01:31:10.300yeah it's like uh it sounds a little bit like blasphemy i guess the definition of it would
01:31:14.620be like attributing uh the power of the holy spirit to something else or that's blasphemy
01:31:19.300against the holy spirit so then that would be knowing exactly what the holy spirit can do and
01:31:24.460then also knowing to put it on something uh you know i don't know a chris blitzel will do something
01:31:29.060like this where the holy spirit is now feminine and it's named an ancient goddess from egypt so
01:31:34.280it's like that's a little bit of uh but again it's no it's not right it's not right but then
01:31:40.480we also have to question is that an unforgivable sin because you've attributed characteristics of
01:31:46.180the holy spirit to an entity that probably is the divine feminine some sort of you know ancient evil
01:31:51.680but do you do that knowingly like i can i can't know a man's heart to know if you you are deceived
01:44:41.620that's part of me but do i have to do that all the time now and and that that's how you become
01:44:47.680somebody else's n-word sayer you know right they go dance for me daddy like say say the thing that
01:44:53.600i'm not brave enough to say because you and i'm like i just don't want to do that anymore but i
01:44:57.100like i so i i'm sympathetic to people who have like put themselves in that position if they feel
01:45:02.020that way i don't know if they do some people might be very happy to be in that position but that
01:45:07.040certainly is a thing when you when you're in this sort of business that you can kind of0.97
01:45:11.840you know you could uh you can cast yourself as a fucking spider-man and now you're spider-man the0.96
01:45:16.400rest of your life tom holland so it's like that's it's it sucks it's rewarding but i think with owen0.99
01:45:23.080in particular i think the concern with like jim bob and jay was that you know this debate i think
01:45:28.540i don't know with jay i'm speculating a bit here so you know give me a little bit of grace but i
01:45:33.880i suspect it's because they saw his tendency to like re and like you said this is par for the
01:45:40.340course in comedy it's kind of what you sign up for right understanding that i think they probably
01:45:44.960reconsidered and said do i want to really be on a platform where this guy is going to like put
01:45:50.720poop on icons like at least in a depicted way you know because for us like we said if there's the
01:45:57.100the icon of the harrowing of hades like this is an important doctrine it's the same way
01:46:01.560desecrating a bible or desecrating an icon like for us there's the same content in each of them
01:46:08.980right it's telling the story of the incarnation and how god saves the world from spiritual death
01:46:14.780right so it's probably they just didn't want to give more attention to what we see in the
01:46:21.060orthodox churches like desecration i okay i understand that said i understand your point
01:46:26.840that it's par for the course in comedy like it's it's also a huge failure on their part0.98
01:46:31.620is what i'm saying and this is what this has been one of my main gripes and i i don't want to keep
01:46:35.920you too long man but uh i think this is a having a decent time here um the the failure is you don't
01:46:45.000believe exactly how i believe and you're talking to somebody like owen benjamin who is a good
01:46:49.200friend of mine i mean this guy again another dude that showed up to my events flew across the the
01:46:53.940country to come and hang out. And it's been nothing but good to me for probably four years
01:46:58.160now. And I've had, I have a working relationship where I, yeah, I message him all the time. So
01:47:02.820it's like, this is like, he's a friend. You've taken somebody like Owen Benjamin, who is a force
01:47:08.260multiplier, in my opinion, somebody that is a mover of men, okay, can do this. And because
01:47:15.860he didn't believe exactly the way you wanted him to believe in the timeframe in which you wanted
01:47:19.780him to believe. Then you lean on debate. And then he leans on comedy. And then you lean on debate
01:47:27.040more. And then he leans on comedy and he's better. And then you get offended. And then we have to
01:47:32.200push away. So what has effectively happened is somebody who is a leader of men, and that's not
01:47:38.620just, you know, I'm not a bear. I'm not a follower of Owen Benjamin. But when I look, there are many
01:47:44.320of them. And this dude's been canceled and they have their own community. And that community is
01:47:48.760flourishing. And when I look at Christ and what Christ is doing, and when I look at men who are
01:47:53.500walking in the way of Christ, they're doing similar things like this. They have family.
01:47:58.300They have good hearts. They don't partake in, you know, debauchery. They're building things.
01:48:03.480They have their own land property. They're growing. They're growing. And that's what
01:48:09.500Owen is doing. So I'm like, man, to have pushed this guy away from orthodoxy, from believing in
01:48:17.480Christ in general, and then spreading that message to his people, shame on you. What did you do wrong
01:48:24.780here? And will you learn from it? And the answer is no, you absolutely won't learn from it. It's
01:48:29.540going to continue and proliferate. The bigger a platform you get, it's not going to stop. It's
01:48:35.340just going to grow into something uglier. And I'm not in a position to stop them and be like, hey,
01:48:40.320here's everything wrong with you. Because you could point right back at me, sure, a lot wrong
01:48:44.660with me but certainly this happened here this happened here you fucked up and now there is no0.99
01:48:51.680there's no mending this bridge because you've messed up so badly and then tripled and doubled1.00
01:48:56.820down onto the how dare you how dare you with the icon shit it's like all right like you got to0.99
01:49:01.000understand this has been a back and forth thing where you debate real hard and then he comedies0.99
01:49:06.360real hard and then you get sad about the comedy but then you also can't have comedian in your
01:49:10.820title. So like, we're working on like, levels of parody here that are, I guess are lost upon most
01:49:18.100people, but I'm watching and I'm going, what a shame, what a shame for the kingdom of God,
01:49:23.840not just the people and everyone, maybe people enjoy, yay, we're going to get a debate,
01:49:28.760they'll spar with words, who cares, like souls that are in the meantime here are being lost
01:49:34.040and left on the table, whether they're going to again, I guess you'd be happier that they go to
01:49:39.520orthodox church i'd be happier if they went to christ and i don't know i don't know exactly where
01:49:44.580that is i think he's omnipotent and it works in strange ways i think we can't define this
01:49:48.760but that what i can tell you for sure is that that's been squandered and in part by me too0.96
01:49:53.920because i'm taking part in the the shit throwing fest you saw online so what do you do what do we0.91
01:49:59.640do here how does this get fixed does it get fixed does anybody care i don't know i don't know i would0.72
01:50:05.560i would hope for it to get fixed i think on this topic we may just have to agree to disagree on it
01:50:11.360i think uh yes there is like the uh expanded parody that pushes the limits within comedy
01:50:18.820and again for us this is something equal to like desecration and i need to equivocate between like
01:50:25.500as i understand it when it came to the like jim bob and the trinity debate with owen that there
01:50:30.800was an equivocation between the trinity and like a homosexual relationship and that just those are
01:50:36.900some lines that for us it's like yes we'll joke and we'll have fun but there are some things that
01:50:42.160are like that are sacred and i understand that's not the case for owen uh but i i mean it's it's
01:50:49.460an internal thing on our side it's just we would rather you've also got it you got to understand
01:50:54.360when you're when you're debating somebody into a corner with uh terms that most people are not
01:50:58.980familiar with ecumenicalism i had to look that up and honestly most of the terms that are used by
01:51:03.840the orthodox people i won't look up because i'm like i like we understand what these words mean
01:51:09.120when i when you phrase them out over three or four words i'm not going to use these pretentious
01:51:12.540words it's not how i talk and it's going to come off there's a lot of lingo and jargon and theology
01:51:18.140that's right there's a lot of lingo and i get it you're distilling the huge thoughts into one word
01:51:23.820but a lot of people and i'm on your side on that i think it's unnecessary most of the time
01:51:28.020But yeah, it's a very pretentious lingo. Yeah, Jesus didn't talk like that. He spoke pretty clearly. I mean, the message was a bit obscure. You had to think about it sometimes. But like, yeah, the wording was not the phrasing was always simple. Again, not to trash you guys for using that. It's just that's how it comes off. So when you're doing that and you put people in a corner with this kind of stuff. And again, my tool is or Owen's tool is comedy. He's going to punch you back and he's going to punch you way harder.
01:51:55.120like this is a so you cannot you can't get offended you have to understand what you're0.84
01:51:59.580doing here you know and you can't make somebody believe in a triune nature of an eternal being
01:52:05.860that created the whole world with words like there has to be more there's actions there's
01:52:11.200there's things that we can do there's patience that we have to have with people to understand
01:52:14.860this thing and it wasn't shown there and now this is the the fruits of that it's it's just like
01:52:21.560it's just a shame it's it's it really is but we can't change i think we can agree that overall
01:52:27.700it is a shame i think they're like competing priorities on on both sides and we do not have
01:52:33.620the same set of priorities so like for us like that's what i mean is that like for us like
01:52:38.460the icons are like uh they are the the means by which the seen and the unseen are connected
01:52:45.680right it's it's a form of that right it's hebrews 8 where it says that the things that you saw in
01:52:50.900the tabernacle that's what moses saw on the mountain and that everything in the tabernacle
01:52:55.460corresponds to that spiritual reality right the symbols are like a connection yeah but everything
01:53:00.280in the tabernacle was also built to perfect specifications as above so below again just to
01:53:06.820make fun of the art a little bit it was like i don't know the arms don't really connect
01:53:09.560so but but i i understand what you're saying i understand what you're saying yeah for us it's a
01:53:13.500it's a priority for us that for you guys it's not a priority so that's like probably one of the
01:53:18.020factors of why it ended up this way is that if competing priorities there are some things that
01:53:23.540we hold sacred that you got not you but i'm just saying like owen's side they think it's okay to
01:53:28.680profane these things or to desecrate these things i just it's just uh this how else was it gonna go
01:53:35.740it almost seems inevitable in hindsight it almost seems inevitable that you know owen's gonna do his
01:53:40.780comedy thing and you know the things that we think are like sacred he's gonna desecrate them and uh
01:53:47.940we're gonna do the debate that like you said we're gonna do the debate thing and we're just
01:53:51.940gonna okay what's your substantive claim oh then you know it'll just end up in a bit of a stalemate
01:53:56.580which is it seems like that's where it is it's uh i don't it doesn't seem like a stalemate it
01:54:01.760seems like it's it's kind of an embarrassment on jay's part he's challenged him to a debate and
01:54:06.420then asked him for a roast and then ran away from it you asked for a roast too you asked for a roast