Nephilim Death Squad - The Berean Files： NAR, Worship & Worship Music ｜ NDS

00:00:00.000 And it's like, we are so brainwashed into thinking worship means music.

00:00:11.400 Worship means every minute of your life, every second of your life.

00:00:15.480 Where is your intent?

00:00:16.560 Where's your attention?

00:00:19.900 But I'm not so sure we guard our music ministries in the same way.

00:00:25.820 when music, I would argue, sticks better than the...

00:00:31.800 They believe they should be heading up every sphere of influence in society.

00:00:39.540 And religious music is part of that, right?

00:00:41.860 That's part of the religious.

00:00:42.860 Are you here to be entertained or are you here to worship?

00:00:45.300 Because like worship has nothing to do with...

00:00:47.780 And she turns and says, all right, you know, let's stand as our musical act takes over.

00:00:53.740 Oh, man.

00:01:01.860 Messed up. 0.99

00:01:02.900 In the shadows of the ancient ones 0.92

00:01:13.020 They never went away

00:01:16.740 They're still here today 0.99

00:01:22.020 Level up, death squad 1.00

00:01:26.860 When the last trumpet sounds 0.66

00:01:28.940 And the heavens crack

00:01:30.800 Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of Nephilim Death Squad.

00:01:59.120 I am David Lee Corbo, a.k.a. The Raven.

00:02:01.660 That is Top Lopsa, the father of disinformation.

00:02:04.040 And you guys just bore witness to a new intro.

00:02:06.220 That was very – actually, that's the first time I saw the new intro.

00:02:08.600 So very exciting. 0.99

00:02:10.000 We're doing all type of shit over here. 0.97

00:02:12.240 If you want to support the constant grind that we find ourselves in, 0.98

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00:02:19.060 Go there.

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00:02:29.120 in case you missed it live there's also access to communities of dangerous retards on twitter on 0.56

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00:02:40.840 you get much of the same perks including early access and discount codes off of merchandise

00:02:46.780 from toplopsa.com which is uh under under construction i'm gonna say it's under

00:02:53.100 construction i say it's pretty constructed it's good uh yeah we're dripping and dropping out

00:02:58.540 our drops so our latest one is the classic sermon series we have one drop coming this friday and uh

00:03:04.300 just like a couple of minutes ago there's a 25 off sale on everything that we are getting rid of

00:03:10.840 so go ahead and check that out if you wanted any of these designs you have until uh october 12th

00:03:18.520 i would recommend strongly uh psyop season and the nephilim death squad dragon ball z version

00:03:23.360 recommend you do it just go do it because i am very happy to get rid of this it's a weight on my

00:03:28.720 mind yeah yeah yeah keep these on my shop and then keep an eye out because those new designs are

00:03:33.180 going to be dropping soon or dripping or dropping we should really get you know who's going to be

00:03:36.420 dripping on on your chest uh elijah schaefer at truth or come good god yes there we'll be there

00:03:42.420 november something to the november 7th through the 8th in dallas texas uh we're going to be 0.99

00:03:48.220 hanging out with sam tripoli elijah schaefer is going to be trying to ejaculate on my chest

00:03:51.940 apparently uh gary wayne it's a skiba news nation event danny from the rabbit hole podcast is going 0.92

00:03:57.920 to be there brian adimi to race who's jt follows jc john pounders of pounders quest and those three

00:04:03.780 additional white folk will also be there go and use promo code nd squad get 10 off come see us in

00:04:09.780 dallas we got a great episode coming for you uh returning guests champions some would say

00:04:14.020 champions champions welcoming back to the show the berean files jason from the berean files let's get

00:04:20.260 these guys on the stage there we go what's up guys what's up guys how are you on uh you know

00:04:25.620 were those plugs too long no we have to make them longer actually considering it's only three minutes

00:04:30.240 and 25 seconds in uh i think we could have expanded a little bit and before we knew intro

00:04:34.240 was fire station thank you very much i appreciate that uh let's talk about where people can find

00:04:39.060 you oh man uh everywhere you can find podcasts uh you can find us on youtube at the brilliant

00:04:45.900 files as well and if you want to support the show we've got a patreon up finally we finally did it

00:04:51.580 um that's a good way to support the show uh twitter i'm kind of active on there not really

00:04:57.060 but you know come hang out wherever we're we're on the internet has been from business the menace

00:05:02.060 would say very cool hey how long has this been now because we we had you on early zach uh and

00:05:08.420 at the time we had him on before he had a show well he had a show it had been put to bed he

00:05:13.640 was considering resurrecting it now we're in the throes of it and you guys are are off to the

00:05:17.900 races how long has it been now since we're right at we're right at six months started in april i

00:05:21.780 think it was uh i think it's technically yeah april something like that yeah yeah okay so right

00:05:26.780 around six months a little over yeah thanks for forcing him into this no it didn't force me great

00:05:32.360 idea after we had a conversation i said uh you know this was great why aren't you doing more of

00:05:38.340 this i wouldn't say force it was more like bullied i was like so you're just gonna keep

00:05:41.420 I mean, that's my language.

00:05:46.600 That's all good.

00:05:47.340 I like that.

00:05:48.100 That's how me and my friends interact.

00:05:49.680 So, you know, we just, you know, strong arm each other into what we think they should

00:05:53.560 be doing with their lives, you know, guilt them into a better life.

00:05:56.960 I like it.

00:05:57.960 Agreed.

00:05:58.380 Yeah, actually, that's a that's much of what I'd say that we're friends.

00:06:01.700 We watch Spider-Man together.

00:06:03.660 Oh, that did happen.

00:06:05.000 Yeah.

00:06:05.500 Well, he invited me to that.

00:06:06.700 I said, no, because I had already watched Spider-Man.

00:06:09.060 I'm not going to go watch Spider-Man again.

00:06:10.760 it was a great movie this guy's a big fan of spider-man which you know i get it i'm fine with

00:06:14.660 that robot so what are we getting into today guys jesus christ okay so uh basically the way i

00:06:21.480 understand this is top has been looking into what is worship like that's been the big question

00:06:26.900 recently and i've heard you mention it across several episodes and i've liked a lot of your

00:06:31.760 answers you've had as to what you think it is um but we're going to talk about that i think you

00:06:37.320 brought up wanting to talk about the NAR a little bit. You wanted to talk about worship music,

00:06:44.100 like particular worship music, and maybe what is wrong with it, or maybe what is God honoring.

00:06:50.540 I think we can get into all that stuff and just kind of do this thing organically and see where

00:06:54.420 it goes. Very cool. All right, so let's start with that kind of open-ended question then. I

00:06:58.400 mean, we're going to hone in on different aspects of worship, but what is worship?

00:07:01.580 oh just you just want a broad answer you just want the straightforward well i think we we start

00:07:08.400 broad and we whittle down to this to its different forms because i know that within worship there are

00:07:13.040 a lot of different approaches and so we could talk about those individually but what would you

00:07:16.920 if you had to summarize worship um how would you do that if i personally and i want to hear your

00:07:23.440 thoughts too jason if i had to summarize this yeah you get to talk on this podcast you're welcome

00:07:28.420 If I had to give my two cents, I would say I think it's love,

00:07:36.800 and I think love is sacrifice.

00:07:40.100 And I also like Top's view, and correct me if I'm wrong on this,

00:07:43.880 but that worship is what you give your attention to.

00:07:47.200 I've heard you say that a few times.

00:07:48.840 I think that makes a lot of sense.

00:07:50.600 I think it's intent, it's focus, it's sacrifice.

00:07:54.260 advice, I would say that is my broad definition of what is worship.

00:07:59.360 Okay. And what do you think about that, Jason?

00:08:01.300 I mean, worship in its, if you break down the word, it just means what you're ascribing worth

00:08:05.840 to, right? You're giving worth to something. One of my favorite, I guess, layman's definitions

00:08:12.600 of worship, Bruce Leafblad. I don't even know his name now. Bruce Leafblad. It's a tongue twister.

00:08:22.660 Yeah, he's a Southwestern Seminary back in the day.

00:08:26.760 He said, worship is essentially ascribing your heart's affection and your mind's attention.

00:08:33.140 So what y'all were saying, it's attention, it's intention, it's your love, your sacrifice.

00:08:38.620 It's just heart's affection and your mind's attention.

00:08:40.980 Let's engage both of those elements as we focus on God.

00:08:45.320 That's actually a great breakdown because I think that to determine something's worth,

00:08:51.280 you might just be able to observe the attention people are willing to uh to give to it right i

00:08:57.760 mean that's that is a great way to to determine something's worth how many people are willing to

00:09:02.400 focus on this thing how long are they willing to focus on it how much focus are they willing to

00:09:06.180 dedicate to this thing is directly reflective of its worth yeah i mean you can look in your um

00:09:13.600 you can look in your pocketbook you know your checkbook checking account and see what

00:09:17.440 your priorities are based on what you spend.

00:09:20.000 You can look in your calendar

00:09:20.880 to see what your priorities

00:09:22.520 of what you spend your time on, right?

00:09:24.360 And then your talent,

00:09:25.340 what gifts you have.

00:09:26.980 How do you spend those in your life?

00:09:29.000 Who do you pour into?

00:09:29.940 How do you pour into to keep it all yourself?

00:09:32.260 All of that is indicators of what you worship.

00:09:36.880 I think that's a good answer.

00:09:40.220 I accept it.

00:09:41.280 Why, thank you.

00:09:42.400 So you guys are,

00:09:45.280 I don't know if this is the correct term,

00:09:47.260 your worship well your pastors but you also lead worship in the church from time to time i know

00:09:51.780 zach you play sometimes jason yeah what's the dynamic there um i have been um in some role in

00:09:59.860 the worship capacity for my entire adult career basically so um yeah i lead i'm on stage just

00:10:08.420 about every sunday i guess at this point so been on i was on staff for 30 years um not this last

00:10:13.960 year so moved off but still on stage so yeah worship pastor i guess the guests are not

00:10:21.460 appearing on the screen the guests are not appearing on the screen

00:10:26.920 huh oh we probably should have been looking at the chat um what what sorry to interrupt

00:10:36.080 no thank you for interrupting if this is what happens when you talk about worship

00:10:40.280 uh i noticed that jason's uh his mic is muted but yeah because they're in the same room okay

00:10:47.220 yeah um guys can you just verify in the chat you see everyone okay bad boy sees them panda sees

00:10:53.280 them still reserve says nancy's lying okay all right well thank you for lying to our faces

00:10:58.380 i was gonna say it looks right on our end eating well shouldn't be complicated but somehow it turns

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00:12:02.660 what an incredible lie all right so let's continue um moving on you've you've been

00:12:07.580 worship you've been leading worship for 30 years uh i guess what are you playing you're playing

00:12:11.320 piano singing uh largely from guitar okay either acoustic or electric well i haven't led from

00:12:19.420 keys in a long long time zach says i'm no good at piano so that is not a thing but you know

00:12:25.700 you're better on guitar that's right that's right so yeah just um you know having the opportunity

00:12:32.000 to, I always considered it kind of just setting the stage.

00:12:36.860 That stage isn't the best, like an environment of how can we remove distractions?

00:12:41.240 How can we sculpt anything within that moment, within that room to help people connect with

00:12:46.580 God?

00:12:47.740 That it was, you know, which is really weird looking back at our entertainment culture

00:12:52.060 and how that's infiltrated the church.

00:12:54.060 And, you know, we put ourselves up on stage, center stage, bright lights and whatnot.

00:12:58.540 But yeah, how can we point to Jesus in that moment and help people connect?

00:13:05.800 It's a tricky thing, right?

00:13:07.200 Because a lot of people go, like Matt will go, well, if I was doing a service, we would put music at the end and people could sing for however long they wanted and whatever songs they wanted.

00:13:18.580 And I'm like, yeah, it doesn't really work like that because people, I mean, unless you have an incredibly talented musician and you need six of them.

00:13:28.540 most require practice unless you're paying them an exorbitant amount of money.

00:13:35.040 And then now we're talking about this is now a performance again.

00:13:38.480 So there's really no way to –

00:13:40.920 You have to put some boundaries on it, right?

00:13:43.000 What happens when you get like a Yoko Ono kind of a character?

00:13:45.740 It's like somebody's going to grab the mic and start yodeling into the microphone

00:13:48.600 because of whatever, that desire for attention.

00:13:51.920 So there does have to be something.

00:13:53.000 That has happened.

00:13:53.660 I'm sure that you guys have come across that.

00:13:55.960 That's the role of the worship leader.

00:13:58.120 he's the guy that's organizing the band he's the guy that's keeping everyone else in line yeah it's 0.99

00:14:02.980 the guy that makes sure like hey hey i'm not gonna lie to you you suck you you can't be doing this 0.99

00:14:07.580 right now i mean look there has to be some of that you have to control some of this atmosphere 0.99

00:14:12.280 um or else you're going to allow all sorts of insane things in i've played in a church band

00:14:16.800 years and years ago where they were uh i guess there was no worship leader at the time it was

00:14:23.160 very strange it was like a weird vacuum in in this church and i had like a youth band and we

00:14:29.060 were doing our thing but the adults would do their thing and because of that vacuum no one was there

00:14:36.780 to tell people that they sucked and some people listen if you really are bad i simply can't give 1.00

00:14:42.320 you a microphone i can't amplify that like it's a hard gig bro to be the guy who says you suck 0.99

00:14:47.240 like that's like but also that only happens in some of the churches though dude like um you know 0.98

00:14:52.480 some of the bigger churches with bigger teams. Yeah. They, they do that.

00:14:56.300 You know, you have to, I mean,

00:14:57.540 I didn't make the worship team of a, of a big church when I was, you know,

00:15:01.820 between gigs or whatever, but yeah, if you're in a smaller church,

00:15:05.780 you don't really get that freedom that, you know, the,

00:15:08.760 the act of volunteering is more important than the quality of the music.

00:15:13.540 And so, yeah, you get some people up who, yeah, shouldn't have,

00:15:16.980 shouldn't have been on stage at some point. Right. You know,

00:15:19.700 singing harmonies when it's really not a harmony.

00:15:22.480 you know, struggling to stay on melody or, you know, you know, a drummer that can't keep,

00:15:28.380 you know, stick with a click or even anything close to, you know, I mean, yeah, you're just

00:15:33.100 kind of in smaller churches. Sometimes you're just, you get what you get and you're not allowed

00:15:38.100 to say no. Yeah. So the other problem with the, and I imagine this is going to be a problem with

00:15:44.580 a lot of the performative aspects of worship, which is, I guess, a relatively small category,

00:15:51.700 right? I mean, there are speaking gigs, music gigs, and maybe a couple other variations, but

00:15:58.480 there's going to be opportunity within that, right? There's always going to be opportunity

00:16:03.740 within that model that's going to be self-serving. So if you're somebody who has a certain amount of

00:16:08.960 talent, at what point do you have the ability to police yourself and acknowledge that this is a

00:16:16.260 thing that you're doing in the service of God, right? This is a thing that you're doing to exalt

00:16:22.540 the Lord versus this is a thing that gets a round of applause and people pat my back and tell me

00:16:29.500 I've done a really good job. And now we're starting to cross that threshold where it's

00:16:33.320 self-serving and it's not exalting the Lord. And then the other side of that opportunity is when

00:16:39.020 are you looking at this conglomeration of musicians and going, oh, there's something here.

00:16:43.980 there's something here that i can monetize there's something here that a little bit of refinement

00:16:49.940 that happened to that that old church that youth group that i was part of my when my wife was

00:16:54.060 singing she was like the front of this band and the band was actually really good and there was

00:16:59.020 a dude in the church who was all about like he was like he saw he was like oh it's good we can

00:17:03.780 do something with this we can monetize and like we just kind of wanted to play we really enjoyed

00:17:09.180 each other and playing in the church and he was like we need band t-shirts and we need

00:17:14.600 and i was we need branding yeah he started to brand it and i was just kind of like

00:17:19.440 uh this is weird yeah yeah getting strange territory yeah that i i heard a i heard a

00:17:27.820 pastor once say that if somebody comes to him and says hey i i want to preach you know i want

00:17:35.700 to get up and I want to preach that there's a little bit of a red flag there. Um, just in that,

00:17:42.600 like, you should be kind of scared to approach the pulpit on some level. Like there should be

00:17:46.980 a calling scene on you and brought forward. Um, and it's not like a, Oh no, you're out. If you

00:17:52.600 want to preach, that's not it. But it's just like a, there's, there's humility around that role

00:17:57.380 because there has to be right. So if somebody is like super eager and like, no, no, no, you need

00:18:01.560 to put me up there. You should tread lightly with that person and make sure this really is the kind

00:18:06.020 of person that should be preaching, right? I think we guard the pulpit in that way. We guard our

00:18:11.680 sermons in that way. But I'm not so sure we guard our music ministries in the same way when music,

00:18:20.320 I would argue, sticks better than the sermon. You're going to hear the words of the song in

00:18:27.380 your head long after where you're going to forget what I said in a 20-minute sermon.

00:18:32.580 Yeah. Keith Getty, I think, in the UK says that music is the handles by which we carry

00:18:40.940 our theology throughout the week. It's not the surgery thing.

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00:19:44.620 Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that because music has a hypnotic quality, right?

00:19:48.840 It's unique in its way that it penetrates the psyche of people.

00:19:52.360 And if it's a tune that is good, it sticks with you.

00:19:56.720 That's what I mean with that hypnotic property.

00:19:59.300 So, yeah, I would agree just based off of the way that music functions and the way that we absorb it, especially into our subconscious.

00:20:07.600 you know you're going to be walking throughout your day potentially humming a tune and repeating

00:20:14.600 the lyrics very far and few in between that you're going to be walking throughout your day

00:20:18.820 just randomly reciting some of the sermon that your pastor gave that day so yeah it is much

00:20:24.600 more effective it's hypnotic it's it's a dangerous thing i mean music is a dangerous thing because it

00:20:31.520 can be used to exalt the lord and it really is this wonderful vehicle and something so unique

00:20:36.180 to mankind that we can make, but also it can be used to carry a lot of other messages, which we

00:20:41.140 see, you know, running rampant within the music industry at large. So, yeah, I think you're

00:20:45.940 probably right in that, Zach, that music has a lot of staying power in comparison to the sermon.

00:20:54.380 Yeah, I mean, if you take out of, take the big churches out with all the production and the

00:20:58.440 YouTube and shorts and, you know, influencer model, take all that away and say it's just a

00:21:03.900 small church with 100 people in the room. You got no internet, kind of like you guys did a few

00:21:08.640 minutes ago. The preacher could say two or three things wrong, and people don't remember it after

00:21:19.780 that moment. But you give one line in a song that's off, they're going to keep it, and they're

00:21:26.360 going to hold on to it, and they're going to sing it. And so I've been more and more convicted over

00:21:31.060 these last 10 or 15 years of my time in the pulpit, whatever you want to call it, as a

00:21:37.060 worship leader, that my responsibility of the words I put before the people is significant.

00:21:43.420 And it's something that I cannot take lightly. And you have to have a humility behind it of,

00:21:48.660 yeah, we're going to sing something. We're going to do something that maybe isn't the best tune.

00:21:52.540 Maybe isn't the best lyrics from a cultural standpoint, but man, it's solid. And this is

00:21:59.160 what our people need to carry with us this week. And so, and you know, to, to that point, I find

00:22:04.880 it interesting if I want to push back on somebody's sermon and go like, Hey, but have you considered

00:22:10.480 this passage and how that might influence the way you taught that thing? You know, like generally

00:22:14.880 people are like, they're okay to go, well, yeah, I guess I'll look into that. I haven't actually

00:22:19.740 noticed how maybe those two things connect. If I walk up to you and I'm like, Hey, I'm not so sure

00:22:24.300 i agree with that line you guys are singing people are so quick to get mad and defend the songs that

00:22:30.220 they love like they're they're emotional they hit us at a heart level and like they become these

00:22:35.140 kind of anthems these themes over our lives and i have gotten into some heated arguments with people

00:22:41.020 because i'm going hey i don't think that song's good for you and they're like but i love that

00:22:46.240 song that song saved me that song changed and it's like dude hey i'm not like attacking you

00:22:50.740 I'm saying that song is teaching something that's not true.

00:22:55.060 And that could be dangerous because now you're learning it at a core level.

00:22:59.080 There's a joke in there, like, you know, a Baptist, a Methodist,

00:23:01.320 and a Presbyterian walk into a bar and they're best friends

00:23:03.520 until they start talking about worship music.

00:23:06.000 And then they hate each other.

00:23:07.080 You know, I mean, it's more divisive than denominations, in my opinion.

00:23:12.700 I mean, you can even be in this similar tradition

00:23:15.320 and people just get upset and, yeah, they really don't want anything.

00:23:20.160 There's literally a denomination of the church that has no music.

00:23:24.280 They have no instrumentation.

00:23:26.540 Instrumentation, yeah.

00:23:27.540 They just sing, yeah.

00:23:29.800 I don't know what they sing, though.

00:23:31.220 I'm not sure what their songs are.

00:23:32.780 It's probably like hymnals or choral stuff.

00:23:35.580 Probably.

00:23:36.860 Yeah, it's true.

00:23:38.260 I was just listening to a song with somebody.

00:23:40.860 They get to an ad-lib point in the song,

00:23:44.400 and they go, if I was in a Baptist church, I'd sing it like this. 0.57

00:23:48.400 and he goes to like like breaks it down to like a black baptist church and i go oh yeah that's right

00:23:52.580 you would sing it like that if you were in a baptist church that's interesting that's what

00:23:56.260 they want to hear and and as he did it too it's interesting like the musicians follow it so they

00:23:59.740 follow with the uh with the keys and they're playing their blue notes and they're playing

00:24:03.320 like some like jazz passing chords and stuff as they as they do that i'm just like yeah yeah

00:24:07.060 there's a complete style to it and then they go back into uh you know regular christian

00:24:13.340 contemporary worship music the more modern stuff that you hear that's a little bit more organized

00:24:17.920 but i was like it's interesting it's an interesting admission that you said that

00:24:21.560 and nobody really noticed it kind of went over the head of the audience that was there as well

00:24:25.600 they clapped everyone's everyone's happy they know but it's weird right it's kind of like

00:24:30.120 we're all in on it nodding along like yeah yeah that's it what exactly are you in on because it

00:24:36.460 is it's it's it's almost like it's like dishonesty in it but it's hard to express like what about

00:24:42.280 that is dishonest i don't know if it's dishonest but it's like yeah you're in on like yeah these

00:24:45.540 guys do they do this specific thing this is what messed up matt for a while yeah where uh he was

00:24:52.160 following a guy around i'm sure you heard the story and they were uh they were at some summit

00:24:57.240 or a meeting or whatever and they were making fun of how somebody how how one person is is like

00:25:03.240 getting the holy spirit and they go right at the costal you know like they know the denomination

00:25:08.700 by what they're how they're reacting to the spirit and i was like what he's all freaked out

00:25:13.340 Is the dishonesty that it's so inorganic and it adheres to a model and it's got a predictability built within it?

00:25:21.860 It's got a brand to it.

00:25:22.720 I don't know.

00:25:23.400 Yeah, like a brand or a model.

00:25:24.660 It's predictable.

00:25:25.920 And when you are that rigidly adhered to a model, then nothing organic happens anymore.

00:25:33.140 Right?

00:25:33.520 I mean –

00:25:33.920 I think we're all guilty of that on some level though.

00:25:36.380 Oh, yeah.

00:25:36.720 Absolutely.

00:25:37.180 Absolutely.

00:25:37.540 You know, like it's going to happen.

00:25:40.200 it's like and i would break it down to you know you go over to somebody else's house for dinner

00:25:46.080 and you're you get kind of weirded out because the pacing of their household is different than

00:25:51.480 the pacing of your household you ever have that where you show up and it's like oh well we set

00:25:55.940 out all the silverware first and then we we pray at this time and and oh our kids all have to wash

00:26:01.180 their hands right before the meal and take your shoes off yeah and i think like there's it's even

00:26:07.400 down to just that level of like we develop our own little pocket cultures as humans and then you get

00:26:13.300 like-minded people together whereas like hey if you look at the pentecostals over here they're

00:26:17.760 going to have a similar leaning because i think they're similarly wired people much of the time

00:26:23.140 oh you're going to put the calvinists over here they're going to have a similar leaning on certain

00:26:27.180 concepts because they're similarly wired people a lot of the time or the arminians over here the

00:26:31.900 Wesleyan's over here, whatever. Baptists over here. I kind of see all of those as separate

00:26:36.980 organs of the body, if you will. We talk about the, and I think I just talked with Matt about

00:26:41.540 this, but you talk about the hand can't look to the eye and say, we don't need you. The body needs

00:26:46.040 all the parts of the body, right? I look at denominations in that same regard, is that

00:26:51.060 across the board, we are all kind of like these little pockets of like, we're this organ of the

00:26:56.860 body. Oh, you're that organ of the body. We need each other to be the complete picture of this

00:27:01.220 thing. But what it turns into so often is what is warned against, where this organ is looking at

00:27:07.640 this organ and going, no, that's wrong. You can't do it that way. And it's not bad to try and hold

00:27:14.680 each other accountable to stay true to the, if you will, orthodoxy of scripture, right? Like the

00:27:20.380 standard of scripture, not the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm not trying to trigger anybody over

00:27:25.360 but like to keep people to the standard of christianity that's one thing but there's so

00:27:31.620 many things that fall outside of that are still god honoring that are still worshipful that are

00:27:36.280 still the church and it's like i think there's plenty of room for all that stuff does that make

00:27:41.700 sense yeah but then that gets into that nar territory right yeah we're going there right

00:27:47.720 you see what i mean it's like yeah some of this stuff it does fall outside of uh it's not mentioned 0.96

00:27:51.820 in the Bible, but like, yeah, we, I could look at it and say, okay, I understand why people do

00:27:55.960 X, Y, Z. Then they take it a step further and they really blur the line of, uh, like what's

00:28:03.180 outside the Bible that's acceptable because they, I don't know. And I know, I know part of it,

00:28:06.820 they're getting messages from God that are completely unscriptural and they're running

00:28:11.840 with that as gospel because you guys want to get into that. Yes, please. Let's, let's get into,

00:28:16.580 we can get into that. And then I want to get into a little bit more of the, like the worship

00:28:21.660 music industry, and we can get into some songs in specific as well.

00:28:25.360 Yeah, it circles back around for sure.

00:28:28.260 Yeah, I mean, so look, I'm not an expert on the NAR, and part of that reason is because

00:28:33.460 it's technically not even a thing.

00:28:35.960 Like, in reality, the NAR is not, it's not a real organization.

00:28:40.920 Like, it's sort of a label that you can see that applies to many different types of churches

00:28:45.640 because there are kind of common characteristics that each of those churches would share in

00:28:50.800 common. And that is sort of what the NAR is. But as a whole, like it's not, it's not a legitimate

00:28:58.840 legal organization or entity or anything like that. It's an ideology more, more so you say?

00:29:04.560 Yeah. I mean, that's how I would go about describing it because a lot of the people,

00:29:08.900 if you point out that they're in the NAR, they'll be like, well, we're not NAR, you know,

00:29:12.840 like that's not a thing, you know? And so you kind of got to be careful how you

00:29:17.000 confront people on these concepts. But a lot of it, I think, boils down to what the NAR is,

00:29:25.400 is this heavy emphasis on the apostles and the prophets and kind of leaning into this

00:29:32.680 total fulfillment of, what is it? 1 Corinthians 12. Let me see if I can pull this up real quick.

00:29:40.580 27 through 30. Now you are the body of Christ and each one of you is part of it. And God has

00:29:46.980 is placed in the church. First of all, apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles,

00:29:52.080 then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

00:29:57.580 They're kind of looking for a fulfillment of that concept. But what ends up happening is there's

00:30:03.400 this overemphasis on miracles and works and prophecy. And you kind of create this hierarchical

00:30:11.580 structure where you've got these dudes that can say things like, well, God told me and that's

00:30:18.620 just good enough. And you just have to go, oh, well, he's a prophet of God and God told him.

00:30:23.240 And like, that's the, that's the foundation of any good cult. Right. And I'm not saying all

00:30:28.640 these people are in a cult. I think some of them are, but, um, it, it's dangerous. And you know,

00:30:35.100 there's other elements, there's seven mountain mandate and how that falls into this thing.

00:30:38.780 um that mandate is like uh to spread the church into all all the corners of uh influence tv media

00:30:48.260 music things like that yeah um you want me to look up what they are seven yeah let's talk about

00:30:53.880 that because that's actually i've heard the expression i'm not familiar with it the seven

00:30:57.160 mountain mandate i'd be interested in knowing what that what that's about by the way you had

00:31:01.000 mentioned something before zach about um pressing people on their worship music and how you'll get

00:31:07.920 this emotional reaction versus you won't get the same reaction if you press people on a sermon.

00:31:12.640 And I think what's significant is both of them have a similar element, but one is much more

00:31:16.880 intense than the other. So when a pastor gives a sermon, it's very routine for somebody in the

00:31:23.380 congregation to have it resonate with them to a higher degree, meaning like they're speaking to

00:31:27.540 something that is on my heart. I've had that experience before too. And I think that oftentimes

00:31:31.860 that is the Holy Spirit speaking through one person to speak to something that's happening

00:31:39.360 in your life. But I also think that there is an element of that with music that is not the Holy

00:31:47.580 Spirit. And I think it happens with all sorts of spirits. And I'm not saying that that's what's

00:31:51.380 happening in worship music. But I think that music in general, especially its lyrics, are so

00:31:56.620 widespread and general in their interpretation that it allows for people to, uh, put their own

00:32:05.300 life on the lyrics of the music. Right. And, and this is something that happens very often. So

00:32:10.480 it's like, you are literally challenging people on a thing that they routinely, and they do this

00:32:17.620 in all music. So it makes sense. It would do worship music. They will, uh, impose their life

00:32:21.960 experience on the lyrics and and suddenly the lyrics will become very personal speaking to the

00:32:27.020 things that they've been through and i think that's actually some of the more winning artists

00:32:31.040 that you see in mainstream music they they are incredibly vague with their lyrics like a good

00:32:38.200 song you'll often be like what is this even about like if you really listen to it and that's almost

00:32:42.960 the point in some ways they'll say emotionally charged phrases they'll use language that's

00:32:48.860 emotionally charged but it's still open to interpretation and the point is you're supposed

00:32:53.880 to listen to it and superimpose your life onto it and that way it speaks directly to you so when

00:33:00.020 you're challenging people on on anything that's musical you're challenging like their entire

00:33:05.140 baggage that they put on it because it's what they've attached to it that you're yes yeah yeah

00:33:10.660 i think that is what's going on you can do that with the sermon too but i i think one of the

00:33:14.600 bigger things with music is that not only have they attached themselves to whatever meaning is

00:33:19.260 being you know brought out in that but they're repeating it there's an aspect of like a mantra

00:33:24.420 almost yeah like a call and repeat that's like some of the most powerful songs or phrases use

00:33:30.860 that call and repeat program which is a hypnosis technique yeah yeah you're you because now i mean

00:33:35.960 it's an invitation you're inviting the audience to oh like you're part of this with me so when you

00:33:40.140 insult somebody's lyric or when you insult the lyric that they've been singing they probably

00:33:44.040 like have some sort of ownership they feel some sort of ownership with that because they've

00:33:48.680 they've said it out loud as you guys were playing it or in their car listening to the song so like

00:33:54.200 no one's ever saying your sermon back at you that would be bizarre but i think there's something to

00:33:59.860 that like if you're telling me something i'm writing it down i'm going to absorb it and uh

00:34:04.780 i don't know become uh yeah i'm just going to absorb it better and feel like it's part of me

00:34:10.240 more because i've now added a second sense to it a second layer and i think that that part's kind

00:34:16.760 of hard to talk about as well because it's yeah is it like is it hypnotic in a way yeah is it like

00:34:24.460 programming you in a way yes it is and i would argue exactly right because like for instance

00:34:31.100 the entire book of psalms are songs they're poetry they're songs and if you look at the early church

00:34:39.660 before we even had scriptures of the New Testament, right?

00:34:43.300 Like the gospels, they immediately started making songs

00:34:47.900 to sing the truth of what had happened with Jesus.

00:34:51.660 And that's how a lot of these things were taught to people

00:34:54.160 before we actually had the writings within those first,

00:34:56.780 what is it, 30 years or whatever,

00:35:00.620 between Paul getting the first stuff out.

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00:36:06.140 There is a teaching method connected to that, and that can be good, but then you got to pull it back and go, well, wait, what about when it's bad?

00:36:14.140 Right?

00:36:15.680 Talking about the whole NAR thing, I'm going to botch this quote.

00:36:19.120 I was actually just listening to this, but Bill Johnson from Bethel Church.

00:36:23.620 You familiar with Bethel?

00:36:25.020 Yeah.

00:36:25.680 Yeah, so, I mean, Bethel is NAR.

00:36:27.600 I would like to elaborate that.

00:36:29.340 You're very familiar with Bethel.

00:36:31.160 I'm not so much familiar with it.

00:36:32.720 They're one of the big three.

00:36:35.000 Bethel, Elevation, Hillsong, I don't think exists anymore.

00:36:39.540 International House of Prayers up there.

00:36:41.280 They're a big one.

00:36:42.440 IHOP.

00:36:43.040 What?

00:36:44.300 That's real.

00:36:44.960 That's true.

00:36:45.420 I swear.

00:36:46.380 That one hurts my soul every time.

00:36:49.220 There's a couple of others that are smaller.

00:36:51.220 Are you kidding me?

00:36:51.740 IHOP.

00:36:52.000 And they do call themselves IHOP.

00:36:53.820 I wonder which was first.

00:36:55.280 That's so funny.

00:36:56.500 It had to be the pancakes.

00:36:57.820 The pancakes came first, bro.

00:36:58.920 there's no way you know the crazy thing is though like you you know who they are if you've heard if

00:37:03.560 if we played you some of the songs you'd be like yeah yeah i know that one okay but it's really

00:37:07.840 just three groups making all of all the songs you've you've talked about that before that is

00:37:13.700 like i think they're even in i read some stuff that they're even in the same room like uh making

00:37:18.980 the songs so they're not just writing them in the same room but they have a collective where they

00:37:23.140 get together and they sort of do a profit share on the song it's bizarre that's because in the

00:37:29.260 context of like let's say news dissemination we would look at that as a horrifying thing when you

00:37:34.320 go there's only three or four major companies that own all of the news syndications they're all

00:37:40.460 all of the you know these four companies own all the the the media conglomerates that disseminate 0.96

00:37:46.520 information that's not good but then when you hear so there is like this jerk right where i'm like 0.51

00:37:51.600 only three own most of the, they're making most of the worship music.

00:37:56.280 I don't know how to feel about that.

00:37:58.260 Well, what makes it scarier too, is they literally spoke out like Bill Johnson.

00:38:02.720 It was either Bill Johnson or like Bill Johnson's team in the early days of Bethel came out

00:38:08.420 and said, Hey, we're going to take over the Christian music industry. 0.58

00:38:12.140 Like we're going to do.

00:38:13.340 And when you take into account that all of these NAR groups believe in the seven mountain

00:38:17.360 mandate, why wouldn't they say, hey, we're going to stake a claim on this thing and we're going to

00:38:23.300 monopolize this thing? That's what they do. They believe they should be heading up every sphere 0.88

00:38:29.940 of influence in society. And religious music is part of that, right? That's part of the religious

00:38:35.140 mountain. So yeah, I mean, they've literally said that's what they're doing, I guess is my point.

00:38:40.860 But what were you going to say? Well, I mean, yeah, there's three, maybe I would say fourth,

00:38:46.420 Jesus Culture. I don't know that they're linked to a specific church, but they're definitely a

00:38:50.280 worship brand. So Jesus Culture, Elevation, Bethel, Hillsong. Hillsong has multiple brands

00:38:55.840 across their generations. It's kind of like saying like, you know, Ford and Chevy are the

00:39:01.340 only people that make cars. Like there are plenty of other car makers and some good ones out there,

00:39:06.940 but you have to get out of the circle of the three of the four, right? Yeah. And so, you know,

00:39:13.280 Passion Movement out of Georgia with Louie Giglio.

00:39:18.700 They had a really strong start.

00:39:21.020 Good stuff.

00:39:23.660 What's the...

00:39:25.360 Sooner Count the Stars.

00:39:26.780 Yeah.

00:39:27.560 Sovereign Grace.

00:39:28.200 Sovereign Grace music.

00:39:30.020 There's a couple of other churches.

00:39:31.960 But again, we're talking about entertainment culture, right?

00:39:34.240 You get into Red Rocks worship out of Colorado.

00:39:38.120 Flatirons did some worship as well.

00:39:40.160 You know, some solid, biblically-based lyrics come out of, Shane and Shane's another one of my favorites.

00:39:46.980 They're going back into hymns and psalms and stuff like that these days, which is solid.

00:39:51.900 Keith Getty is another one out of the UK, writes modern hymns, which is really cool.

00:39:56.940 His Mercy is More and Christ Alone are a couple that really hit in most churches these days.

00:40:02.620 But yeah, I mean, there's some big ones out there, but yeah, you got to look between the lines.

00:40:08.800 You've got to realize where they're at, the vagueness of their lyrics, what it leads to in the rest of their church.

00:40:17.440 That's one of the discussions Zach and I've had.

00:40:19.560 You listen to this song and that song, and then do your people, next thing you know, they're on YouTube listening to the preachers as well and seeing Gandalf and grave soaking.

00:40:30.420 What is the word for you? What do you mean?

00:40:32.660 Those are our favorite stories.

00:40:35.820 You can't just drop that and not explain it.

00:40:38.040 move on because you're going to love grave soaking. Yeah. So this is Bethel. I mean,

00:40:43.760 Bethel is on, I think it feels like they're on the furthest extreme of some of this, you know,

00:40:48.480 Hillsong, um, before we go that extreme, I think one of the things we see or that I see in,

00:40:54.920 in the lyrics of, you know, these big churches is how American dream or American theology focused

00:41:02.860 they are. And so many songs talk about, you know, our hardships and how, you know, how hard we've

00:41:09.660 got it in life, but yet there's no global perspective about what it's like to be a

00:41:13.860 Christian in other countries, countries where, you know, where you're completely, you know,

00:41:17.900 you're martyred if your faith is known in public. Right. And, you know, and yet we're singing about, 1.00

00:41:22.800 God, we need a breakthrough. We need, you know, I just want another million dollars this year.

00:41:26.380 I need my, you know, it's funny, whatever. There's a church by my house. I was, I was driving by

00:41:30.900 when you leave. So it's right there on 25. You've probably seen it. They, they're the ones that

00:41:36.240 they, well, this is their old location. I know exactly. Yeah. I know. You know what? But they,

00:41:41.040 they have like a slide in the lobby now. But this new one there, they, they just put up this huge

00:41:47.620 banner. Sorry to interrupt, but it's, it's just interesting that you're saying it. And it's an

00:41:51.740 American flag banner. And it just says something like Jesus loves you. And I'm just kind of like

00:41:55.880 jesus and america put together my wife unique yeah like how do you feel about that like i

00:42:01.700 understand the concept but i'm like which one went on the banner first the flag or jesus that's my

00:42:08.100 yeah no jesus is jesus name is overlaid on the on the flag it's it's just bizarre to me because

00:42:14.580 it's just like america jesus what i always think i go what and then i flash back to the knife in

00:42:21.240 gaddafi's butt and i go like yeah america and i'm not saying i love america i'm just saying like you

00:42:26.560 know it's also not like a glorification of america like i i be proud of where you're at sure i get 0.97

00:42:32.900 that but it is it's kind of like i hope you understand that jesus died for like the whole

00:42:38.340 world yeah right but it's cool that america like right you know what i mean well how how would

00:42:45.200 those same people feel like these american christians that see that and they're like oh

00:42:49.400 yeah, Jesus, America. How would they feel if they saw a Russian flag with Jesus loves you

00:42:54.540 overlaid over it? Or a Chinese flag with Jesus loves you overlaid over it? Or an Iranian flag?

00:43:02.900 How would they feel about that if those countries were like, hey, yeah, we're going to stand behind

00:43:09.260 Jesus? Would we be just as proud to see that? Because I mean, that's the kingdom mentality.

00:43:14.260 because we should be issue that's the issue i think when i look at it it's like it's like we're

00:43:19.320 like claiming jesus for this geographical territory which we should like he should be

00:43:24.420 king of america but it but it's like oh or does it stop there for you like i don't know i haven't

00:43:30.260 interviewed every single one of the stops at canada for me oh yeah for sure like not he doesn't he

00:43:35.440 doesn't go to canada and definitely not new york city he doesn't go to can a lot of the islands

00:43:39.420 It's like Barbados, Honduras.

00:43:42.840 Yeah, he doesn't go there.

00:43:44.420 Jamaica?

00:43:45.400 No.

00:43:45.740 I mean, totally not knocking the American dream.

00:43:48.700 I mean, that's cool.

00:43:49.620 But the American dream is not prosperity gospel as well.

00:43:53.340 And I think that's where we lean a lot is like, you know,

00:43:56.580 I need the house with the white picket fence, wife and three kids,

00:43:59.880 and, you know, a truck and a Tesla in the yard, you know, whatever.

00:44:03.900 um yeah i think we we conflate the two in our biblical theology and and uh our american dream

00:44:12.620 and it's just not can we take that a step further and say that you know if you really get to the

00:44:17.540 backbone of what like the american dream is it's all about freedom right i mean that's that's

00:44:21.900 really what it's about and liberty which is like liberation right and where the spirit of the lord

00:44:27.240 mind draw yeah exactly right but then christianity is about you are not free you are a slave to jesus

00:44:34.840 christ i am not my own living sacrifice yeah right and it's like what if what if what jesus

00:44:41.260 is calling me to isn't that white picket fence and a family and the life that i've always dreamed

00:44:47.380 of like what if that's what i'm not being called to that's it's not my say it's not my you know i

00:44:53.000 have to set my goals to the side for his goals, my will aside for his will. That's, that's what

00:44:57.720 Christianity is about. Right. And so then to like idolize freedom in the way that we have. And I, 0.62

00:45:03.040 I say that and I'm going to make a lot of people mad, but it's like, what, what is freedom? You

00:45:07.920 know, you're, you're free to do what Christ has told you to do. And that's real freedom,

00:45:12.360 but doing just whatever you want, that's not freedom. Right. But we can take the verses of

00:45:17.920 where the spirit of the Lord is. There is freedom, right? There's liberty. And we can take John 10,

00:45:22.460 10. I've come not just to give you life, but give you life more abundant. And we can take that and

00:45:27.600 put it into our own theology rather than the theology of the cross. Well, there is something

00:45:31.580 that gets a little bit fishy though with that, to Zach's point. I mean, we've pointed it out

00:45:36.920 within the Libertarian Party where so much of it feels like live and let live is very close to do

00:45:44.020 what thou will. And there is this idea too of the don't tread on me sort of flag, but Jesus gives us

00:45:52.440 the authority to tread on uh scorpions and serpents and then it's like it's using a snake

00:45:56.660 and it's saying don't tread on me that's there are the snake in that metaphor yes yeah and there's

00:46:01.360 also uh yeah which is fantastic uh there's also the idea of the statue of liberty which bears

00:46:07.120 striking resemblance to lucifer calling on his legions which is a painting that like marina

00:46:12.260 and brahmavik uh took a you know a photo in front of with uh david rothschild i believe his uh was

00:46:18.920 the guy and he's looks horrifying in the photo but they look the same and there's also uh i believe

00:46:25.060 a statue of lucifer and he's got a chain around his ankle and he's chained to a boulder and then

00:46:33.160 you look at the statue of liberty it bears resemblance in the face it's got a very masculine

00:46:37.340 face which is interesting it's got that crown just like an ishtar would have um and it's got

00:46:44.100 a broken chain around its ankle and it's also carrying the torch which is this thing that's

00:46:50.180 synonymous with lucifer lucifer i believe in the highest symbol of intelligence exactly yeah it's

00:46:55.520 this idea that lucifer actually bought mankind it's a promethean kind of lore right brought

00:47:00.800 mankind same with water and she's standing in the middle of water yeah same with water yeah yeah so

00:47:06.800 i mean there is something to be said about that where it's like you take a thing that is good

00:47:12.680 and to whatever extent,

00:47:14.880 but then when you stretch it to its most extreme,

00:47:17.940 what are we liberating ourselves from?

00:47:20.580 Are we liberating ourselves from God?

00:47:22.620 Because that seems to be some theme

00:47:24.540 that's baked into those elements

00:47:25.860 that I just talked about.

00:47:26.680 I think the reality is

00:47:27.760 you're going to serve something anyway.

00:47:29.480 So yeah, what are you liberating yourself from,

00:47:32.060 but what are you then serving afterward?

00:47:34.980 I question that a lot.

00:47:38.100 What I'm building, what I'm trying to build

00:47:40.640 as i uh build it chains come off but more chains come on if that makes any sense yeah you know i've

00:47:48.080 i've shed the nine to five city job for this 24 7 job so what am i building has this actually

00:47:58.380 helped me i don't know i i maybe we'll find out we'll find out when it's all over i think that

00:48:04.620 it almost speaks to just the nature of of our reality right it's like subjugation to christ

00:48:12.120 that that is the thing like you so if you're if you're liberating yourself without the end goal

00:48:18.960 of subjugating yourself to christ the end goal just becomes liberation which is then ultimately

00:48:25.780 leads to god right and that's especially if you've carved out something by what you think is your own

00:48:30.960 merit and you've built something by your own work. And then you're entirely independent in

00:48:36.700 your imagination from God. What worth is there in God? If I've generated all the money, I've

00:48:41.640 built the thing. And so I think that that is another form of liberation. I've liberated myself

00:48:46.920 from working for somebody else. I've done such a good job. What do I need God for? So there is like

00:48:52.100 it's kind of like a tightrope, you know, a little bit too far to one side and you're falling a

00:48:57.040 little bit too i mean yeah the path is narrow right so it applies and i mean i think all things

00:49:01.780 worthwhile in this world are right all the all the good things we're called to generally you can

00:49:07.060 take them too far and make them bad yeah um which is why i get weird when people just start making

00:49:12.120 blanket statements and just like cutting out whole sections of life and going oh don't even think

00:49:18.320 about that that's wrong it's like well no there's probably a way of navigating that direction in a

00:49:22.840 God-honoring way. But just like anything else, you have to be incredibly careful in whatever

00:49:27.760 you're doing, that you are doing it the way God has told you to through his word, right? Not just

00:49:34.360 through some prophet or apostle coming back around to the NAR. But know what God's will is for you,

00:49:41.320 follow that. You can abuse that and make it an idol by going your own way with it, no matter

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00:50:47.900 And so, I mean, look, the thing that's so hard about this conversation

00:50:51.560 is I know it feels like this,

00:50:52.880 like we should be talking about music right now

00:50:54.800 in so many ways

00:50:55.580 because we call music ministry worship ministry,

00:50:59.720 which is crazy

00:51:01.260 because everything in your life is worship.

00:51:04.840 Everything in your life is worship.

00:51:07.160 And we don't talk about that enough. 0.99

00:51:09.280 I had a girl get incredibly mad at me 1.00

00:51:11.440 for making that claim earlier this year

00:51:14.040 on some statements she had made regarding worship.

00:51:18.040 and it's like we are so brainwashed into thinking worship means music worship means every minute of

00:51:25.580 your life every second of your life where is your intent where's your attention where is your focus

00:51:32.100 where's your sacrifice right and and we're we're so careless at times whether that's you know

00:51:38.720 worship leaders or pastors preachers right we'll even say you know you know thanks for you know

00:51:44.640 singing so loud in worship. Now let's, let's open God's word and preach. Right. You know,

00:51:48.800 I mean like we even say that trained theologians from the stage say, all right, now it's time to

00:51:55.180 worship. Wait, we, we've been doing that. Haven't we been doing that? What did I do? The other

00:51:59.940 167 hours of the week. Right. And so we've got to, I don't know, we're just careless with our

00:52:06.220 words sometimes and it just and we did and uh we did have a funny one uh we had uh i'm not gonna

00:52:14.480 yeah we're not gonna dox but we had somebody doing announcements for us one sunday morning

00:52:18.200 and we do those very first at the beginning and we're about to do the first song and uh she turns

00:52:25.160 and says all right you know let's stand as uh our musical act takes over oh man at least it wasn't

00:52:34.380 in the middle of the service you know yeah so we we have asked them to do the announcements again

00:52:42.600 but uh we'll never know she's very aware of that like after it happened she was like i'm so sorry

00:52:49.280 i don't know why i said that and her husband's on the worship team he's a guitarist it's a

00:52:53.180 right i mean i had some very similar where they reached out to me and they said um you know would

00:52:59.400 you like to do something here and i go oh you know i'm sure i'll help and i was trying to pitch in

00:53:04.160 the context of like boil the hot dogs but don't keep you too close to them i'll eat them all you

00:53:10.080 know i can i can whatever i could vacuum take out trash you know just just stuff like maintenance

00:53:14.160 stuff that needs to happen around here and they knew what i did so they kind of fished and fished

00:53:18.780 and i said yeah well i do this for a living and and they go well maybe you could um narrate and i

00:53:25.600 said well what does that look like and he goes you know you you you get on stage you do the voice and

00:53:31.560 i go do the voice right do the voice do the act do the thing and uh and i'm just not into that at

00:53:38.360 all but but i'm not i don't think that dude was being nefarious i think he's just there's an

00:53:45.220 unspoken truth and a bit of a freudian slip taking place and when you don't analyze it well wait why

00:53:51.740 do i have this presupposition that this is a the voice you know why do i have this presupposition

00:53:56.420 that this is part of the act the show um if you don't analyze that then it just bleeds into your

00:54:02.740 language and then you know before you know it uh you are fully internalizing the idea that this is

00:54:08.300 an act in a show and a production which right you know the further you go down that road the further

00:54:14.380 it is uh from exalting the lord well but it is a production sure sure if you're if you guys are

00:54:21.680 playing i mean speaking from like the the engineer standpoint in the back if you guys are up there

00:54:27.800 and your sound man is just at home nothing is happening there you're i mean you could play

00:54:34.560 some acoustic instruments but it doesn't sound good everybody has to be in a chord but in a sense

00:54:39.660 he's doing production or uh i don't know if you guys have lights they have lights where we're about

00:54:45.500 as bare duns as we can possibly we have stripped a lot of back yeah yeah yeah i don't i don't

00:54:49.600 particularly care for the lights somebody just got yelled at for playing strobes because i apparently

00:54:54.080 you can do that and it's just like yo just put a light on like it like you guys have a nice light

00:54:59.120 behind you red and blue makes it look really nice or you have the walls colored that way and you have

00:55:04.640 some light i understand that aspect of it it's giving a visual that's calming appealing okay to

00:55:12.400 look at but then it starts to draw the question of are we supposed to be looking at this right are

00:55:17.120 are we supposed to be looking at the guy playing or should we be focused on

00:55:21.260 something else? Is this distracting? I don't,

00:55:24.280 I don't know exactly where that line goes, but like, I don't know the sound

00:55:28.560 engineer. If we're, if we're worshiping and you want to hear like a decent mix,

00:55:34.460 you want to hear something that's pleasing. Do you want this to suck or not? 0.97

00:55:39.260 Like, I don't know where that line ends either, but I know where it leads. 0.94

00:55:42.500 It leads to the episode on the 501c3 system. So, you know,

00:55:47.120 When a church gets big enough that you have to have sound or you have to have, you know, more than, you know, like, what was the New Testament church without sound, without lights, right?

00:55:57.280 I mean, it was people meeting in homes.

00:55:59.240 You don't need the production.

00:56:01.400 The guy with an acoustic guitar can sit in the back corner.

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00:57:05.120 To everyone's backs and lead worship from there.

00:57:07.800 It's not about having to be in front of people.

00:57:10.160 You know, but as soon as we grow to a size that, okay, now we do have to have things that support, you know, the sound getting out there.

00:57:18.560 We do have to support, well, how does everybody get lyrics?

00:57:20.760 We don't use hymnals anymore.

00:57:22.520 You know, how crazy were hymnals when those were first brought out?

00:57:26.320 Like you had to memorize the hymns.

00:57:27.880 You had to memorize the Psalms before that.

00:57:29.700 So, you know, how do we facilitate, like you said, being all on the same page? 0.96

00:57:34.760 To that point, like the pagan Christianity.

00:57:38.140 You've read some of it.

00:57:38.820 You got it over here.

00:57:39.420 Oh, yeah.

00:57:40.160 There's a chapter in there that talks about the way they set up the early churches, like in the Roman Catholic Church, for instance.

00:57:48.920 The way those cathedrals were built was based upon the Greek theater because you have an orator speaking and it has to project to the entire room.

00:57:57.720 So they built the churches based on theaters, which is what pews are.

00:58:02.000 Pew means balcony, right?

00:58:04.240 Pulpit, I think, is a word for stage, if I'm not misunderstanding there.

00:58:08.880 but when you start getting yeah when you start getting into the language it's all theater

00:58:12.780 language yeah and i mean i understand there was a functionality behind that but then what it starts

00:58:17.600 to convey is i'm the guy you're supposed to listen to you shut up be docile sit there you are not a

00:58:23.860 participant in this you are a viewer when in reality what's happening is we are all participating

00:58:29.740 in this thing which i know can get messy because you get biblically into like paul telling the

00:58:35.080 women to be quiet because they're like shouting out questions in the middle and he's trying to

00:58:39.480 preach. Right. So obviously there's a respect thing that has to happen there as well, but it's not 1.00

00:58:44.520 like you are a part of this as well. We've gotten away from that in the way we kind of convey our

00:58:51.360 worship. Yeah. Well, we grew into size that had to be supported by these things because we wanted

00:58:57.740 to hear that one person, right? We wanted to have that one worship leader or whatever it took to be

00:59:03.820 that teacher and we began to diminish the work of the people within the church and you know you

00:59:09.500 get above the size of what 20 people in the living room then you do have those situations

00:59:14.000 like earlier saying like you got that one vocalist that you just need to say no to

00:59:17.300 but you know in a church 2000 you can in all fairness though jesus did the same thing jesus

00:59:22.700 sat on the boat on the water preaching to the crowd because his voice would carry on the water

00:59:28.240 to all the people differently.

00:59:29.860 Right, right.

00:59:30.780 And there is an element of teaching

00:59:32.300 and the crowds coming together,

00:59:34.640 but it's not the central piece of the New Testament.

00:59:38.320 Right.

00:59:39.160 So that gets into this issue of like scale, right?

00:59:42.560 So we talked about how there's basically

00:59:44.820 three major organizations

00:59:46.920 that are creating all of the worship music.

00:59:51.420 Well, not just the worship.

00:59:52.580 It gets even more nefarious in that.

00:59:54.380 I think Bethel might've been the first church

00:59:57.920 either them or elevation them whatever them them they them this may be the first one i've heard

01:00:03.680 you say it right that's awesome i can't tell him he's been practicing well played after the show

01:00:09.260 we go them women and he goes the woman and i go close close them women and then we bounce back

01:00:15.420 and forth um these guys have figured out uh not only a school or a college for um musicians and

01:00:23.420 worship leaders that's crazy because that generates a lot of money right yeah no they're

01:00:26.920 the people are paying them yeah no i think that was just roll with it just go just go they be

01:00:32.500 they be getting paid by the people i actually understand ebonics now yeah so like you have

01:00:39.640 this multi-fold organization where they're making money hand over foot yeah and is that right hand

01:00:44.900 over fist hand over fist they're paying them to you know train them and then afterwards they're

01:00:51.840 making money on the back end when they become big but then they also figured out that the old model

01:00:55.880 is not is no longer uh like people don't really want to see a song and then it goes by elevation

01:01:02.500 music because there's no identity to it people like this kind of uh yeah there's a creator crisis

01:01:08.600 yeah so what they've effectively done of the artist right yeah so they've they've like made 0.99

01:01:12.940 little artists but they're like behind them and they're like puppeteering it's very jewish it's 0.83

01:01:17.600 very jewish but again it adds to this problem that what you were just talking about where it's 0.98

01:01:22.240 like we want to hear the one guy so like before it was like we want to hear the one church and

01:01:27.220 now we want to hear the guys so now they have like brand names yeah of these people yeah which

01:01:33.660 to me is always very bizarre is that boys to men by bethel church like is that kind of the thing i

01:01:38.620 mean boys to men and bethel well it's just people that they named but then what happens when those

01:01:44.120 people get bored and want to move their uh you know move their genre to something else like

01:01:50.740 they came up in christian music and then they move like that is a katie perry oh yeah katie

01:01:55.500 perry did that right yeah a couple other big artists her first uh her first feature was on

01:02:00.340 a pod song on uh goodbye for now way really yeah yep that's kind of sick actually now she's like

01:02:06.340 great song fantastic song about hooking up with an alien uh yeah not too long you know which is

01:02:12.040 certainly brandon ligg now is like he's making a very sneaky move into ricky lake's kid ricky

01:02:17.980 lakes children uh child yeah he's he's doing a sidestep into uh country music and it's like it's

01:02:23.440 very obvious i was i saw like a clip from him recently and it's that's he's singing about his

01:02:28.040 truck and america yeah you are and hey jesus too yeah but you know i got a steak it's like your

01:02:35.560 banner yeah what's this texas roadhouse what's going on here bro my pickup truck that's that's

01:02:41.140 maybe the most like absurd front of it you know because like brandon lake kind of roped jelly

01:02:45.600 roll in there with him as well. We actually had a dude reach out to us that was in our church that

01:02:51.360 was part of a big stink that got caused and just broke mine and Jason's brains. I'm going to cry

01:02:56.620 while you tell this story. My brain's still a little broken over it, but he reached out and

01:03:01.260 said that he gets more out of a jelly roll song than our worship on a Sunday morning. And I feel

01:03:06.980 like that's a you problem, bro. Yeah, I'm really sorry because I think we sang Psalm 130. We sang

01:03:12.420 psalm 98 we sing psalm 8 and you know i get more out of jelly roll yeah yeah well i mean you know

01:03:18.520 i don't even know if that's really an insult jelly roll is a multi-millionaire you know kind

01:03:23.520 of like it's like well no i mean it makes it physically but spiritually spiritually yeah but

01:03:29.200 these people so now now we could be real hard-headed and be like well if you didn't get it 0.99

01:03:33.500 fuck you right yeah yeah that's what you're supposed to do that's what i would do oh well 1.00

01:03:37.000 okay i mean you could do that i would go slur slur yeah racial slur there's another one no but 1.00

01:03:45.360 the reality is is like okay that person didn't hear it this way yeah a lot of people do but

01:03:50.580 that person doesn't that one needs this more dressed up and then you got the people that

01:03:55.800 can dress it up so so now we're in a situation where it's like do we even do we want to be

01:04:03.100 hipsters and be like you just don't get it you just don't if you don't get it you know what

01:04:06.680 it's like it's weird but where is your attention in that though is your attention on god or is it

01:04:12.760 on yourself like you know like that doesn't do anything for me are you here to be entertained

01:04:16.880 or are you here to worship because like worship has nothing to do with you it's not about you

01:04:22.100 getting anything out of it it's about you giving right but there's a lot of people that don't get

01:04:27.720 that and especially like brand new i'll tell you a story i it was the one about uh the story about

01:04:32.580 um my wife's my wife's uh stepsister who was like she's a jewish and was an atheist for a long

01:04:42.040 she's she's a jewish she's she was a jewish atheist for a long time yeah secular jew is that

01:04:47.680 what that is yeah i guess you'd say yeah just not caring and uh we used to practice me and my wife

01:04:55.400 in the house and she where they all live and we play the songs and then she would like hear them

01:05:01.380 and she'd like some of the songs. So then she would download them or get to see whatever it

01:05:05.960 was at the time and listen to the songs and like the professionals play them. And she liked them

01:05:10.120 as songs because they were well-produced, sung well, whatever was happening. Years down the line,

01:05:17.780 she does her thing and she was dabbling in some sort of, she didn't tell me the extent in how far 0.55

01:05:24.400 she was dabbling in witchcraft, but she was. And one of her friends came over, stood at her house,

01:05:29.740 wanted to stay there longer than she should have. And I think it was like she had to like kick her

01:05:33.000 out or something. And the friend didn't like that. So she did a thing where she left something in

01:05:41.060 the house. And things weird stuff was happening. And she didn't know what to do. But she remembered

01:05:47.920 a lyric from a song that we used to sing and that she liked. And she liked it because it was well

01:05:53.920 produced. And she listened to it in her playlist with other music that was just regular music.

01:05:58.840 and she wasn't she didn't she wasn't there for worship she was there because it sounded good

01:06:03.640 but she remembered that song she got good advice from her aunt her aunt prayed with her now she

01:06:09.320 i mean you talk to this girl now she's reading the bible every day she's good she goes to church

01:06:13.240 she's actually like a christian she's trying to like talk to her mom about this because her mom

01:06:18.460 is also an atheist jew and i'm like oh what happened there because i'm i was very much on

01:06:25.620 the same boat as you where it's like yeah what what are we supposed to do like dress this up so 0.98

01:06:29.200 that way it's good for your ears so that way you can hear it how you want to hear it i'm like shit 0.55

01:06:34.360 maybe i don't know because now i have this story that i don't know what to do with and it's like 0.93

01:06:38.660 a real life story of something that actually happened to almost you know um push back against

01:06:45.400 that but i don't think it is an accurate pushback that's not the the phrase that applies here but

01:06:49.060 like God can use a bird in a moment that it's meaningful to a person.

01:06:55.080 He could use anything as well.

01:06:56.080 Absolutely anything, right?

01:06:57.020 To draw somebody in.

01:06:58.300 He can use what is meant for evil for good.

01:07:01.340 Well, how many cases though do you think?

01:07:03.940 Do you think that what I just mentioned is explicit to only me?

01:07:09.420 No, I'm sure there's a lot of people.

01:07:11.500 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:12.120 Not at all, man. 0.55

01:07:13.040 And I think it goes, I think God can use non-Christian or things with the intention of doing wrong to preach or to bring people to God. 0.57

01:07:27.000 At top, I think we actually talked about this once. 0.62

01:07:30.200 You got Joseph, right?

01:07:32.240 And Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery.

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01:08:35.080 And then Joseph gets brought into Potiphar's house.

01:08:38.960 potiphar's wife comes on to him he flees ends up being thrown into jail for a sexual assault that

01:08:44.380 he never committed sorry if i just said that and that's going to get you dinged on youtube

01:08:47.440 um but um then he gets thrown into jail he then becomes like the highest ranking official in the

01:08:55.400 jail uh ends up telling people what their dreams mean the pharaoh at the time hears about this

01:09:01.400 brings him in says hey i need you to tell me my dream he does this validates who he is to the

01:09:07.540 pharaoh that he's a good man pharaoh makes him the number two guy in all of egypt and then joseph

01:09:14.300 saves that entire corner of the world from famine because god tells him to and then his brothers

01:09:21.180 get brought back into the picture and he kind of gives him this little test which eventually ends

01:09:25.940 up him forgiving them and he says what you meant for evil god meant for good because had his

01:09:32.020 brothers not thrown him into slavery, that corner of the world would have died from famine.

01:09:37.920 Yeah, that's Genesis 50-20. As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good to

01:09:43.760 bring it about that many people should be kept alive as they are today. But then that corner

01:09:48.760 of the world could never enslave Israel. I actually just taught on that yesterday. That's

01:09:55.080 wild you brought that up that's good yeah um christ right well about the cross the crucifixion

01:10:01.880 of christ god used to buy us from the dead so i mean over and over again that's the theme there's

01:10:08.400 no so if you go can god use a song from bethel you know to bring somebody in closer to him it's

01:10:15.740 like yeah i mean he used the gruesome crucifixion but are we gonna are we comparing a song from

01:10:22.060 bethel to is it evil killing god somebody intended for evil when they produced it yeah i don't know

01:10:28.920 i don't know i mean put that on a personal level you know i've led worship from the stage for 30

01:10:34.540 years there are sundays that i did it under my own power and i i have to confess that before the lord

01:10:42.200 going you know i'm you know you're sitting there halfway through a song and you're like oh hey you

01:10:46.940 see that new guy over there i wonder if he's a guitar player oh let me you know and like

01:10:51.460 look at me you know I your brain just shifts in those moments right there been some there

01:10:57.120 been Sundays that the last thing I wanted to do was be in church and yet you kind of go through

01:11:03.480 the motions with this prayer of like Lord I've got nothing so just take it and it's some of those

01:11:08.700 days where I feel like I got nothing is when people were just yeah I was trying not to look 0.97

01:11:18.100 at it but i had you know those are the days that like real quick um fj fool just because the 0.97

01:11:24.300 audience is listening on what the hell fj thought that god used this wretched podcast to bring me 0.82

01:11:28.760 closer to him so yeah i mean all things yeah i mean god god uses can use anything and so whether

01:11:35.940 the song was written with pure intent or poor intent it's yeah god can pull it together for

01:11:41.000 his good yeah to top's previous question of are we really going to compare like bethel music to

01:11:46.260 like the crucifixion of jesus no it what wait wait though wait wait go ahead

01:11:50.640 to the abortion industry all sin crucified jesus right right so like yeah it yes in a way it was

01:12:01.260 mine or that yeah right the smallest thing you ever did is what put jesus on that cross right

01:12:06.640 yeah so like in a way yeah kind of because they're the same thing even your poor theological lyrics

01:12:11.080 are covered by the cross right so but coming back around to this whole idea of like god can

01:12:16.220 use that stuff for good, I think there's a flip side too. When you take a concept like Bethel

01:12:22.500 with the NAR, where they, like Bill Johnson, I forget what the book is. He contributed heavily

01:12:28.240 to the book. He endorsed it. They sold it at Bethel. It's not written by Bill Johnson. I need

01:12:33.820 to look up the name of it, but I'm rolling here, so I'm just going to talk. But he said in the book

01:12:39.820 that we need to reclaim

01:12:42.500 all of the gifts of the new age,

01:12:45.040 the truths of the new age

01:12:46.260 to us as believers

01:12:48.400 because those gifts belong to the Holy Spirit.

01:12:50.900 You look at what they're doing in Bethel Church

01:12:52.820 where they roll out a giant honeypot

01:12:55.000 on stage. It looks like a Disney prop,

01:12:57.020 like at Disney World.

01:12:58.260 It's cartoony and then they dip people's heads

01:13:00.820 in it and when they pull them out, they're stricken

01:13:02.780 with holy laughter. They got people

01:13:04.860 running around their sanctuaries with a sock puppet.

01:13:07.120 Yep, I'm going to keep going because this is

01:13:08.860 It's going to get weird for a second.

01:13:10.060 We're going to get into Gandalf.

01:13:11.140 They're running around with a sock puppet on their hand, 0.71

01:13:13.300 bonking people on the head with it.

01:13:15.480 Little bunny foo-foo. 0.98

01:13:16.420 And they're being slain in the spirit,

01:13:18.140 falling on the ground, writhing and laughing.

01:13:20.160 They do this thing called like a fire tunnel

01:13:22.220 where they all hold out their hands

01:13:23.420 like a tunnel at a football game.

01:13:24.820 And as you run through it,

01:13:25.660 you're slain in the spirit

01:13:26.660 and you're writhing on the ground

01:13:27.640 like a Kundalini serpent in you.

01:13:29.560 They've got glitter that comes down from the ceiling

01:13:32.340 and they call it heaven dust.

01:13:35.260 I don't think it's angel dust.

01:13:36.780 That's piece of paper.

01:13:37.420 but point being whatever they've got this glitter that comes down your job the next day

01:13:44.920 because you're like i went to church on sunday you tested positive for angel dust i didn't know 0.96

01:13:49.800 you like to get wet charlie mercy damn bro what oh dude training day is a great i'll tell you what 0.98

01:13:57.460 i hate a lot of the things you just said and can i do two more can i do two more please okay 0.99

01:14:03.620 grave soaking where they lay on the graves of dead saints to soak up the anointing of that dead

01:14:09.860 saint they will they during covid they brought was it the lady came out dressed like gandalf

01:14:16.280 one of them comes out dressed like gandalf from lord of the rings no yeah they tell or they sorry

01:14:23.700 it was racism i'm getting this mixed up with kenneth copeland but it was during that it was

01:14:27.760 during covid i think but they were telling racism that it was going to end and they had this prophecy

01:14:32.780 that racism was going to end and so they bring out a dude dressed as gandalf with a staff and

01:14:38.540 they all grab hold of it and they make the entire audience at the same time y'all you shall not pass

01:14:43.680 no sorry they said thou shall not pass they king james did even though that's not the quote by

01:14:48.480 gandalf but whatever um during 2020 i think it was around that time black lives matter i'm just

01:14:55.760 saying this is when this is when top loft was just starting to get cooking so boy were they 0.79

01:15:00.600 wrong. They were wrong on that. I got a couple of tweets gone viral this week. I was like, I got

01:15:05.180 plans for a podcast. It's going to be racist. But then like on top of that, dude, they're built on

01:15:12.580 all these prophecies that have been laid out. I watched a short today where the prophet from

01:15:17.800 Bethel, Chris Valoran or whatever his name is, he came out and apologized because he got a prophecy

01:15:25.100 wrong. Here's the thing, guys. If somebody says they're a prophet of God and prophesies and it

01:15:30.560 does not come to pass. Old Testament, you're supposed to kill them. New Testament, you really 1.00

01:15:35.240 just kind of like have nothing to do with them, shun them, they're out of the fold kind of thing.

01:15:39.080 But point being, he literally turns around and says, hey, I got this wrong. That doesn't make

01:15:44.100 me a false prophet though. And it's like, hey, actually, yeah, it does. The only qualifier

01:15:50.940 is doesn't come to pass. I wonder like this, like, all right, you're on payroll for the year

01:15:55.760 and we expect 12 prophecies from you once a month.

01:15:59.620 Wait, what's my percentage?

01:16:01.040 Can I land, like if I'm 80% accurate,

01:16:03.740 do I still got a job or?

01:16:04.720 If you do 13, yeah, there's probably some sort of bonus. 0.99

01:16:07.260 Oh, shit, man. 0.98

01:16:09.060 You guys brought up the Supernatural School of Ministry 1.00

01:16:11.680 where they teach you how to prophesy, right?

01:16:16.140 I know a guy who is in a charismatic church

01:16:20.320 and they learned Bethel's methods for prophesying.

01:16:24.160 and he told me they essentially said you basically ask the the lord for a word over this person a

01:16:31.880 prophetic word for this person and you just say the first thing that comes to mind and they literally

01:16:38.000 told them if it's just you know you kind of just guess at it sometimes and it's like bro that's not

01:16:44.960 prophecy like prophecy you are staking it as in god told me this this is from god he 100 this will

01:16:53.680 happen because that's why we judge you so harshly on it where it's like if you're wrong you're out

01:16:59.760 we can't trust you right there's no margin of error in prophecy none i wonder if uh are they

01:17:05.420 doing like meditation practices where they're like clear your mind and then do yeah uh-huh

01:17:09.880 contemplative prayer yeah so that's that's like a new age technique and i was talking with al we

01:17:16.300 were doing like a al's doing a documentary series guys keep an eye out for that oh yeah that's a lot

01:17:20.540 of fun but he was asking about prayer versus meditation and i was like yeah they ask you to

01:17:24.620 clear your mind or clear your your body your soul for when you're meditating and i was like well if

01:17:31.100 you're clearing it and it's empty what is then filling it right because you're just an open

01:17:35.200 container so what goes in there well they did they do something sneaky with meditation too where

01:17:40.460 they go like oh it's not about necessarily clearing your mind it's about like doing an

01:17:44.200 internal audit quieting your thoughts and i'm like yeah that's called things taking your thoughts

01:17:49.540 captive in Christ, but you're doing it without Christ. Like that's, that's really the issue

01:17:54.860 in that aspect. Yeah. This emptying yourself so that you can be filled with what, and then,

01:18:00.440 you know, analyzing every thought, what good is analyzing it if you're not taking it captive in

01:18:05.260 Christ? And, and like to that point, biblical meditation, it's, it's not emptying. It's, it's

01:18:12.080 filling. It's reasoning. It's like you, you have, yeah, exactly. You're going off of the word.

01:18:16.960 you're going off of truth you're meditating on truth you're not you kind of like you guys brought

01:18:22.380 up recently about you know praying to nothing like just not praying to a particular thing

01:18:27.480 something's gonna step in that gap that's what you're doing when you're emptying yourself right

01:18:31.860 but like all that said like i said this is sort of the flip side of that god can use anything for

01:18:38.160 his good well yeah he can but also the risk that gets run with with like just going well then

01:18:44.620 Bethel music's okay then is somebody like your sister-in-law was that who you said yeah comes

01:18:51.680 out of witchcraft has this new age lean already then they hear this song by Bethel and go I'm

01:18:58.060 giving my life to Jesus because this Bethel song saved me so then they dig into the Bethel stuff

01:19:02.600 and it's the same new age BS she was doing in witchcraft plus Jesus oh you know what I'm saying 0.52

01:19:10.140 Talk to her now. Yeah. In your opinion, is that bad? Is that at least a step close? I know it's still, it's, it's black or white, right? You're going to say it's black or white. 0.99

01:19:19.760 No, I think it's harder. I think it's harder to unpack. How do I say this? It's harder to unlearn the lies and then separate them from Jesus than it is for me to like bring you in with like, you are like totally apart from Jesus. And then I can go, here's the Bible. Here's who he is versus I bring you in and I start intertangling all this witchcraft garbage in with him.

01:19:44.760 And now you're going, yeah, that's Christianity. And I'm going, no, it's not because now they've 0.98

01:19:49.440 twisted up what scripture means to support the stuff they're doing. And like, it's, it's harder,

01:19:54.640 I think. There is that trickiness, right? So when we're talking about like, God can use all things,

01:20:00.860 right? What you just said, Zach, where it's like, okay, then it's almost like, well, then all things

01:20:04.400 are permitted, right? Because God can use all things. It's like, no, God can use all things,

01:20:07.640 but all things are not permitted. It's, it's very similar to when somebody goes like, well,

01:20:11.940 god created everything so god is everything so worshiping us like i've seen this argument very

01:20:17.180 recently actually like worshiping a stone is like worshiping god and it's like okay no there is

01:20:21.880 there's separation so but that's just you know what that is it's this loop that we get in our

01:20:28.640 own wisdom and understanding our own intellect right the the intellect the wisdom of man um 0.94

01:20:33.820 leads us to foolishness it leads us to like full-blown retardation uh in some cases but 0.98

01:20:40.120 that idea of like god is in everything man sounds like really good you know god created the universe 0.99

01:20:45.320 so god is in everything so worshiping of the universe is worshiping of god it's like no

01:20:50.440 there's delineation there's creator and creation and worshiping creation is paganism it's it's

01:20:56.920 paganism but you can see how like the language it's like okay if god uses everything then

01:21:01.960 everything's permitted it's the same thing it's like when you have calvinist talk about

01:21:05.640 predetermination and it's like okay well if god already knows who's saved and who's not saved if

01:21:10.520 that's the most extreme version you want to take that to then it doesn't matter what you do because

01:21:14.660 god's already got it all figured out he's going to decide whether or not you're saying there's

01:21:17.560 like this thing that happens when we get into our own intellect our own wisdom where it just takes

01:21:21.880 us to almost always do whatever the hell you want like it's always do with that will right that's

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01:22:32.140 Yeah, I think I was thinking about Jesus washing the feet of the disciples, right?

01:22:37.360 And Peter is the one, he's like, no, no, I don't, I don't want to, I will wash your feet.

01:22:42.620 And Jesus says, no, no, if you have a part of my kingdom, right, then you'll let me wash your feet.

01:22:48.860 And Peter's like, no, well, then give me, like wash all of me, right?

01:22:52.920 I want it all.

01:22:53.880 I want all Jesus, right?

01:22:54.980 And he's focused completely on what Jesus is, who Jesus is and what he is, right?

01:23:00.120 and sometimes when you know i was thinking like yeah god can use a bethel song god can use this

01:23:05.260 or that um it's kind of like maybe you know james was sitting across the room trying to splash a

01:23:09.720 little water on judas like wake up pay attention dude you're missing the boat right that god can

01:23:15.400 use something to nudge us toward jesus but we often divert our attention to that thing

01:23:21.580 rather than it becomes the thing we pursue well that's the fear of like veneration in the catholic

01:23:27.560 church not to make this like a whole thing but like you guys have been talking about uh keeping

01:23:32.400 your eyes single right rather than evil and that focus of like a singular attention on god now i

01:23:39.100 would say that when jesus is asked what is the greatest commandment he says it's love the lord

01:23:43.260 your god with all your heart mind soul strength you know love god the second is like it love your

01:23:48.140 neighbor so there is this tie between loving people and that is worship to god right but then

01:23:55.820 we can take that a step further. And when you think about something like veneration,

01:23:59.480 it's sort of like this. I have one eye on this saint and one eye on God. It's like, well,

01:24:05.100 but now you don't have a singular focus. We are to love, but worship, our attention,

01:24:14.000 our focus is really to be towards God. And then our love for everyone else comes out of that.

01:24:20.240 It doesn't happen on the reverse. And I think that's where idols get made is where like,

01:24:24.840 oh, I love that song so much it led me to God. It's like, no, I love God so much that I love

01:24:30.460 that song. That should be the order, right? Like that, everything should overflow out of love for

01:24:35.600 God. First John is, we love because he first loved us. Right. Like we do not possess love

01:24:41.100 without his love. Right. First. So in a sense, to be honest, what you guys are saying then is

01:24:45.680 a music, like you said, music shouldn't even be a ministry. That shouldn't, those two words

01:24:50.960 shouldn't be together. Because if you are drawing people in with music, you're drawing them in with

01:24:56.700 something like, oh yeah, I love that. That's why I'm here. You know what I mean? I would argue

01:25:02.160 nothing that happens on Sunday morning is a great form of ministry. Because ministry is to serve

01:25:09.100 someone. Right. It's like outreach. Like ministry is like to go out and bring the gospel to people

01:25:14.460 to serve people Sunday morning or your or well well not even really they don't we expect them

01:25:22.700 to but they really don't like when you look at the statistics and this is a big part of like

01:25:27.540 the 501c3 talk that it seems like we just bring up every time we're on this show so I'm sorry

01:25:31.720 but like at some point you got to realize like we're really just dealing with a bunch of people

01:25:37.660 in this church that pretty much already believe in Jesus or maybe one or two people that stumbled

01:25:42.720 in out of curiosity because they grew up with a leaning towards it in the first place. But the

01:25:48.900 majority of people are out there. So I would say what we're doing when we gather, like when we

01:25:53.260 gather as the church, as the body of believers, we're worshiping God. We're really, it should,

01:25:59.060 the main focus shouldn't be ministering to each other. Yeah. We're, we're helping each other grow

01:26:04.000 where we're teaching, but like really it's all for God. That should be the focus, right? We've

01:26:11.220 turned it into more of like a, it made me feel this way. I liked it because of this. This is

01:26:18.260 what I would like to see, what I would like to feel. I think we're kind of crossing our wires

01:26:22.720 and getting it backwards at that point. I mean, if we're going back to like where we said worship

01:26:26.220 is surrender, right? If we're completely surrendered to God in that moment, we are in tune

01:26:30.960 and we're, you know, like Isaiah chapter six is like, here I am, Lord, send me. Like, what can I

01:26:37.380 do, God, because I'm so enamored with you. And God says, you know what? That guy, Zach over there,

01:26:42.420 he really needs, and then I go and love my neighbor. Does that make sense? And that our

01:26:48.180 love is not just an overflow. I've got so much of God's love that I got to give it away, but it's a

01:26:54.140 directed. God is using us to love others in his, using us as part of his love, right? Does that

01:27:02.620 make sense? I feel like I butchered that. God can use anything, so I'm going to lean on that.

01:27:06.500 The reason for which we are saved, Ephesians 2, the reason for which we are saved is for good works, right?

01:27:12.740 Like, God saves us to use us as his hands and feet toward other people, right?

01:27:19.020 But just once again, like, coming back to what you said, Top, like, yeah, I don't know that Sunday is so much a ministry as a time of worship.

01:27:27.660 But a music ministry is, I mean, you serve people with music, you serve people soup at a soup kitchen,

01:27:34.480 And you serve people by, you know, sending, you know, socks to kids in the winter that don't have socks, right?

01:27:42.260 You know, like all of that is ministry.

01:27:44.460 It's all serving one another.

01:27:46.200 And music is a part of that.

01:27:47.780 I mean, the Bible, beyond even just saying serve one another, the Bible actually commands us, I think it's around 50 times, to sing.

01:27:57.360 Like that is a direct command in Scripture, to sing.

01:28:00.320 So, and then there's hundreds of references of singing and worship and music within the, sorry, singing and music within the context of worship.

01:28:10.300 The definition of worship, if we go like, this is the Cambridge Dictionary that I just Googled it.

01:28:18.820 It says a specialized government department, a position of religious service or the collective body of clergy.

01:28:25.100 So, I mean, by that definition, yeah, sure.

01:28:27.300 But I guess if we're saying ministry as, like, to go out and serve, I don't know that it is that, yeah.

01:28:33.440 Or as much that.

01:28:34.760 It leans more into the worship side, if that's right.

01:28:37.060 So when you're inviting people, if you're doing church right, you're there, you're only worshiping at God,

01:28:44.800 when you invite people to come to church, and then it's weird, right?

01:28:48.500 Because it's almost like the job should be ignoring them.

01:28:52.180 Like, we're doing a thing.

01:28:54.860 You can enjoy us.

01:28:55.780 Well, our love for one another is part of worship to God, right?

01:29:00.480 But if we're singing this song, then yeah, we're focused on doing that at this moment to God.

01:29:05.160 And yeah, that does teach me.

01:29:06.740 Yeah.

01:29:06.920 So yes, it is serving me in that regard.

01:29:09.480 But to think of ministry as like I'm bringing someone to Christ with this thing, I'm saying I don't think the majority of people sitting in your church.

01:29:18.800 Well, I think there are a lot of people sitting in church who are not Christians.

01:29:22.700 But I think the people who are there who are focused on the worship,

01:29:26.880 they're already believers in Christ.

01:29:28.480 You know what I'm saying?

01:29:29.520 So I don't see it as a form of outreach so much, I guess,

01:29:33.540 is what I'm saying here.

01:29:34.380 But yet I had the opportunity to stand in a couple's house.

01:29:40.600 He was dying of cancer.

01:29:42.160 He's in hospice.

01:29:43.860 And they asked me to come by, and I took a hymnal with me,

01:29:48.640 and I sang, How Great Thou Art, and Amazing Grace.

01:29:51.080 that's over him that's service that's service yeah yeah and but yet in the old testament there

01:29:57.520 are pictures of the levites who led the procession up the hill i mean they're psalms of ascent going

01:30:05.500 to the temple mount right and so the levites led the people in song in their procession to the

01:30:11.240 temple and so that is a part of serving the body of christ and so i but when we look at it through

01:30:19.480 the lens of our american church the entertainment culture it doesn't look like it well i think where

01:30:23.820 this is hard too is we're trying to put hard and fast terms on these things and when you start

01:30:27.900 talking about the things of god man it gets holistic real fast right like i mean god is like

01:30:33.900 he's speaking to every part of us and like we already said worship is everything we do

01:30:40.080 so i think we like really simplistic nailed down terms but i think this is where a lot of this

01:30:47.720 conversation comes back to that focus on the intent of what i'm doing here right when that's

01:30:53.320 off go ahead well i was going to say once you incorporate that intent then it encompasses all

01:30:59.240 things really right so if um arthur kwan lee is somebody who comes to mind where his form of

01:31:05.440 worship would be artwork right he's a painter and he spends you would imagine hours upon hours on

01:31:12.300 each piece intricately painting something that is geared towards Jesus Christ and the exaltation

01:31:20.200 of Jesus Christ. Therefore, all of his thoughts are fixated on that as he's going through this

01:31:26.960 process, right? Because that's the headspace that you're in when you're creating these pieces.

01:31:32.260 There are episodes that we do now, obviously there are episodes we do like Neff to America,

01:31:36.420 where it's all comedy driven and we're making fun of the world. But then there are episodes

01:31:40.980 that we do that are solely focused on scripture, solely focused on God. And if it's intent that

01:31:48.060 matters, this is something that like the new age, I say this often, they really kind of nail

01:31:51.900 where their observation of these immutable principles of reality are sometimes spot on.

01:31:58.440 And one of those is where attention goes, energy flows. And it's really just such a great way of

01:32:06.120 wrapping up that idea is like there is attention we talked at the top of the show about worship

01:32:14.420 meaning you know is it worth what was the expression that you use jason uh to to uh

01:32:19.900 define worship it had to do with worth did it not uh to to what you ascribe worth to

01:32:25.520 what you give value to so um and that is determined right by the attention that you're

01:32:32.780 willing to give it so yeah in that way where attention goes energy flows and so if you're

01:32:38.640 doing a show if you're doing a song if you're creating artwork if you're writing a book if

01:32:42.240 you're doing any number of things if you're if you're just quieting your mind and taking your

01:32:47.640 thoughts captive in in christ well that that is worship aimed in the correct direction so it

01:32:54.200 really is such a wide array but it all comes back to what you guys are talking about which is intent

01:32:59.200 and once the intent is correct it really does seem to encompass all things uh david danced right

01:33:05.620 right oh yeah there's a lady that was in the church that i was going to and she would do a 0.60

01:33:11.680 lot of dancing and i would make fun of her in my head i go look at this silly lady doing all these

01:33:15.540 she was dancing for the lord dude like she's up there dancing thinking about god um and that's 1.00

01:33:21.420 what she has to offer and that's where where her intent is going in that moment uh or at least you

01:33:26.780 hope. You don't know a man's heart, right? God knows a man's heart. She could just be up there

01:33:30.100 dancing because she's trying to get seen, but I'm not going to ascribe that to her. That's not my

01:33:35.680 job. So it's all things. Right. And the Bible is very clear. There's dozens of postures of worship.

01:33:43.860 And there's been books written on this, even research, right? That everything from the dancing,

01:33:48.640 the raising the hands, even joy in the Lord, what does that truly look like? Not sticking

01:33:54.060 your head in a honeypot, right? But there's all of these expressions and postures of worship,

01:33:59.180 even down to kneeling and even prostrate, laying prostrate before the Lord, right? Just flat on

01:34:06.220 our face, no, nothing before, like you are just, yeah, my least favorite. I was hesitant to even

01:34:14.760 say it for you guys, but you know, I never even say it because I'm afraid I'm going to say the

01:34:21.940 wrong one what is the word prostrate prostrate to lay to lay face down like like you would before

01:34:28.100 a king like bowing okay him too because it shows your neck the whole concept behind it right that's

01:34:33.840 the idea well even bowing bowing shows your neck but when you're prostrate you have you have no way

01:34:39.900 to get up quickly at all it's not just bearing your neck but right you are full on submission

01:34:47.200 Yeah, there's one of the hymns, bring forth the royal diadem and let angels prostrate fall.

01:34:56.720 That was always a confusing phrase when growing up in the Baptist church going, let what?

01:35:02.020 That was crazy. I'm sorry. I thought you said it three times in a row right here to my face.

01:35:07.840 And I said, it is not. Yeah, it is.

01:35:11.260 Right in front of my audience, they're going to prostrate. 0.79

01:35:13.220 I love Nephilim death squad. 0.68

01:35:14.480 But all that to say, like, yeah, I mean, all music should be in some form worship, but not all worship is music.

01:35:24.360 I mean, there's hundreds of ways that you can worship, right?

01:35:27.420 And that's where we get into that careless use of our words, you know, whether it's worship, whether it's, hey, where do you guys go to church?

01:35:35.200 I don't go to a building for church.

01:35:37.900 I am the church.

01:35:38.560 My church are the people.

01:35:39.580 Right.

01:35:39.740 Like, it's my relationships.

01:35:40.920 It's my spiritual family, my community.

01:35:42.800 But we say it all the time.

01:35:44.040 where do you go to church you know we're the church building people would be dude if you were

01:35:48.120 like yeah where do you go to church and you were like i am the church people would be like geez

01:35:52.240 dude i just want to know that's right so do i tithe to you where do i give my money so let me 0.98

01:35:59.560 rephrase that we we are the church we are the church yeah we are collectively useless uh useless

01:36:06.580 use of words and uh and zach you were telling me about some of your favorite songs that you love

01:36:12.320 Can I give you one plug

01:36:18.040 That fits with the last thing

01:36:19.800 Before we do the songs thing

01:36:21.180 The practice of the

01:36:23.280 No

01:36:24.400 The practice of the presence of prayer

01:36:26.880 By Brother Lawrence

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01:37:28.660 Great little picture in there.

01:37:31.180 He's a monk, and he's a Carmelite monk, so I'm sure we'd have lots to argue about.

01:37:36.640 Practice of the presence of God.

01:37:37.960 Practice of the presence of God.

01:37:38.940 What'd I say?

01:37:39.360 prayer oh sorry practice of the presence of god um he's flipping pancakes for his brothers in the

01:37:46.080 monastery and the whole time he's flipping these pancakes which is a super mundane lame gig right

01:37:52.200 that's the book um very quick read he's talking to god and he's like hey thank you for this

01:37:58.240 opportunity that i'm going to make this food for my brother it's going to feed them it's going to

01:38:01.260 help them get through their day and so he's making this like really lame act this boring job

01:38:06.920 worship um that's just one of the many pictures i like out of that dude that's great though because

01:38:12.320 i i was thinking about that maybe this morning because i was listening to a clip of owen benjamin

01:38:17.580 and he's going back and forth with this other guy and and they're talking about building things and

01:38:21.800 owen's going i actually build things uh watch that too yeah yeah and the guy's like so do i and he's

01:38:27.260 like well what have you built he's like i set up a i helped set up a scaffolding outside of a

01:38:30.840 building one time a church actually um and owen's like okay well i'm actually building things i'm

01:38:35.380 working with animals. And I thought about, I got into this, you know, this headspace where I was

01:38:40.360 thinking about that, being in that mode of toiling, as Owen puts it, and taking thoughts

01:38:47.080 captive in Christ, right? Because you can get into this really, it's almost a wonderful place

01:38:51.120 when you're working, if you don't hate your job, where you're just going through the motions,

01:38:54.620 you're making things, and you are focused on something higher than yourself. And I think that

01:39:02.240 that is actually a really a really special place like when you're laboring and you're laboring

01:39:07.760 with the lord and you're thinking about god and you're building things with your hands like that's

01:39:12.120 a really it's almost like um unique to men in in very many ways because not a lot of women you know

01:39:18.320 have that experience unless you're working on like a farmstead or something and you're working

01:39:21.820 with your hands but yeah like that like these tasks that seem menial and mundane like flipping

01:39:28.760 pancakes, but, but to incorporate gratitude in that and aim that at the Lord, like that's a

01:39:35.360 really special place. And you said like men specifically, but women, you know, like if

01:39:40.360 they're, if they're a stay at home mom, right. Or even if they're out working, I mean, then it's

01:39:44.840 like, Hey, I'm, I'm working to make this money for my family or it's, I'm cleaning my house right

01:39:49.280 now. So my family's got a healthy environment to grow up in, or I'm cooking this meal. So I'm

01:39:52.660 sustaining my family or everything can be that. What's your intention in it? Absolutely. You got

01:39:58.240 something open there yeah i'm going back to the brother lawrence book i just want to read a short

01:40:03.080 passage um he writes a lot of the book is just short little letters he writes to friends and so

01:40:08.780 this first part and think about this in context of what we see what we're told how how we're led

01:40:15.780 in the modern church right says dear friend you aren't the only one to be distracted from the

01:40:21.240 presence of god i understand completely our minds are so flighty but remember that our god-given

01:40:26.880 will governs all of our strength. It must recall the mind of God, otherwise our spirit may wander,

01:40:32.940 dragging us down to the things of this earth. And I think the remedy for this problem is to

01:40:37.220 confess our faults to God and humble ourselves before Him. It isn't necessary to be too verbose

01:40:42.420 in prayer, because lengthy prayers encourage wandering thoughts. Simply present yourself to

01:40:47.380 God as if you are a poor man knocking on the door of a rich man, and fix your attention on His

01:40:52.500 presence if your mind wanders at times don't be upset because being upset will only distract you

01:40:58.560 more allow your will to recall your attention gently to god such perseverance will please him

01:41:03.240 i love that i mean it's just he talks about worship and prayer and being in the presence

01:41:09.820 of god so simply that we complicate things so much you know we were i was i'm doing a

01:41:16.440 corinthians for dummies with uh with matt and um and we've been talking about the simplicity of the

01:41:23.440 gospel right and that paul's not coming uh with what's the word like uh wisdom of words and said

01:41:31.300 he he is among them knowing only christ crucified like there is this thing when the intellect of

01:41:36.660 man or the wisdom of man gets in the way of the simplicity of the gospel the wisdom of god the

01:41:42.360 simplicity of the gospel looks like foolishness to men, right, who are puffed up in their intellect

01:41:47.340 and wisdom. And it's like over and over again, this thing is really simple. So that in particular,

01:41:51.540 like why wouldn't that be the case if the gospel is truly simple, then communion with the Lord is

01:41:57.760 as well. Yeah. And we see that in some traditions too, that prayer has to be this fervent building

01:42:05.980 of emotion and words. And, you know, it just gets bigger and bigger, louder and louder,

01:42:10.580 more intense more intense as if performing we've got to bust through this barrier to get into god's

01:42:16.820 presence like he was there from word one right you know like yeah so sometimes i think about god's

01:42:22.860 like perspective like if he's listening to that and he's like sheesh man hey hey get to it like

01:42:29.040 come on i know what i already know what you want to say like let's let's say it right like jim carrey

01:42:34.340 and evan almighty with all the sticky notes around his apartment like seriously i'm out of sticky

01:42:38.100 notes just give it to me simple come on yeah top yeah top do you want to hit a couple of those

01:42:44.380 songs real quick yes please yeah let's do it um trigger us so uh reckless love cory asbury

01:42:50.780 if you this is a huge song people love this song right although i think i'm hearing it less i am

01:42:57.820 too i am too which i'm okay with um but it's been spoken out against so much that i think people

01:43:02.480 have kind of caught on like oh there's some contempt around this title but cory asbury

01:43:07.140 is actually a Bethel artist so if you do a little digging you'll figure out he is connected

01:43:12.300 um this is a great song in a lot of ways and musically it's pretty solid oh it's it's super

01:43:18.400 catchy it's even the heart behind the song I think is correct but the wording is wrong

01:43:26.620 the song is reckless love the overwhelming never-ending reckless love of God oh it chases

01:43:32.720 me down fights till I'm found leaves the 99 I couldn't earn it and I don't deserve it still

01:43:37.460 you give yourself away oh the overwhelming never-ending reckless love of God here's the

01:43:42.740 problem with that and Jason ruined me on this you're welcome this was this was the beginning

01:43:46.860 of ruining me on worship music was this song not on worship no just just certain songs

01:43:52.640 God cannot by definition be reckless because reckless literally definitionally means without

01:44:01.100 thought or care and god doesn't do anything without thought or care therefore his love

01:44:08.240 is not reckless right but now there are people that believe that because of this song and the

01:44:14.980 scriptural perspective is leaving the 99 to go find the one it's not reckless he leaves them

01:44:21.140 in a place of safety what was your alternative that you said they could have just as easily

01:44:24.960 relentless relentless love of god that would be correct and it fits musically like it were

01:44:30.240 restless restless yeah yeah yeah yeah that's interesting so interesting and people i could

01:44:38.320 understand too like people hearing that and even going to the guy and going did you think about

01:44:43.180 relentless and him going it's copyrighted already we've already right right and and i think where

01:44:50.940 where i've heard a lot of really good christians stand on some of this is that but i know what he

01:44:57.040 means i understand what he means by that and you know i'm like so we're taking license to rewrite

01:45:03.580 webster's dictionary of what this word means in the context of the song like and just because you

01:45:08.840 know what it means doesn't mean that somebody else because there are like a lot of people will

01:45:12.620 get long staying ideas from music yeah right and just as you know god can use anything for the good

01:45:20.340 well anything can also be used for the bad and it can nudge someone away from god because of that

01:45:25.420 word like i don't want to serve a reckless god yeah no way yeah or or something that's close

01:45:31.540 but no cigar right which is also very dangerous that's where you get a lot of new age ideas like

01:45:36.260 jesus is an ascended master christ consciousness etc it's like it all sounds pretty close and

01:45:41.520 pretty good but it's not accurate and that's a huge problem right another one that bugs me

01:45:48.920 well i'm curious what you have to say about this one because i've i've

01:45:52.620 I mean, you're going to pull up oceans. So yeah, go ahead.

01:45:56.580 Oceans is huge. That's another song that's big.

01:46:00.500 And, and there's something new after we initially started talking about it.

01:46:04.380 Thanks to these guys on this podcast. Right. What,

01:46:08.480 what are the waters represent?

01:46:12.680 Right. Right. So here's a song.

01:46:15.400 Here's a song completely built around when oceans rise,

01:46:18.920 my soul will rest in your embrace. Right.

01:46:20.940 So, I want to keep my eyes above the waves.

01:46:23.900 We're picturing Peter walking on the water, right?

01:46:26.740 And let's see, where's the chorus?

01:46:30.460 Your grace abounds in deepest waters.

01:46:32.500 Okay, in the midst of the chaos, sure.

01:46:34.600 Where feet might fail and fear surrounds me, you've never failed and you won't start now.

01:46:39.100 Like, okay, great.

01:46:40.600 We're keeping our head above the waves.

01:46:42.760 God's grace.

01:46:43.560 Yeah, we're walking on water.

01:46:44.840 Then you get to the bridge.

01:46:47.780 Spirit, lead me where my trust is without borders.

01:46:50.260 Let me walk upon the waters where you would call me.

01:46:54.160 Take me deeper than my feet could ever wander, and my faith will be made stronger.

01:46:59.000 Wait, I thought it was good to stay above the water.

01:47:02.240 Now we're taking us deeper into the waters?

01:47:05.700 Like, I don't, we flip the metaphor right in the middle of the song.

01:47:10.980 The verses in the chorus, let me stand, you know, I know my feet will fail, but you're

01:47:16.080 going to, by your grace, you're going to keep me up on this.

01:47:17.980 And then we get to the bridge and we're like, no, but I want to go deep in your love, God.

01:47:21.560 So let me go deep in your waters.

01:47:23.760 But well, you could say that it's saying, take me deeper into like the turmoil to like

01:47:28.620 change me.

01:47:29.920 But the problem is the metaphor isn't clear enough as to what it's trying to show here.

01:47:34.640 So now you're giving mixed signals to baby Christians and giving them weak theology. 0.73

01:47:39.700 If four of us right here don't understand it, we have to be utterly clear in our lyrics.

01:47:45.900 We're not scripture.

01:47:46.580 And the context of it immediately preceding that line is the ocean.

01:47:52.280 So you have the context already built within this chorus.

01:47:57.140 So, yeah, it's like a 180.

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01:49:00.940 And it's a 180 within the context of the ocean.

01:49:04.640 So now you're above it, but you want to be taken deeper into it. 0.99

01:49:07.540 Yeah, it is pretty shitty.

01:49:09.880 yeah and top you're a drummer right no guitar guitar okay well you'll appreciate this either 0.52

01:49:16.580 way at some point youtube ocean's drummer and you'll get one of the most amazing electronic

01:49:22.540 drums versions of this song it's just actually good or is it bad oh it's bad oh okay got it

01:49:31.600 and i think the sound guy might have contributed to it on purpose i don't know we'll see it's worth

01:49:37.240 to youtube listen on that one oceans drummer another one that came to mind for me one that

01:49:41.460 we have sang at our church a million times over and i've sang it a million times over and then

01:49:46.300 one day i wasn't playing i was because here's the thing man when you're playing you're not thinking

01:49:52.680 you got a job you're playing yeah yeah exactly i'm i'm i'm making music happen right now which

01:49:58.100 is weird too when it gets into the i want to focus on god and yet i'm like okay g's coming up okay

01:50:03.920 f sharp you know like moving around um that that can be kind of a battle in itself but then too

01:50:10.560 you're not thinking about the words and so i'm sitting out by the booth making sure it sounds

01:50:15.420 good and i'm listening to no uh no outsiders by wren collective a song we've sang a million times

01:50:22.340 the chorus there are no outsiders to your love we are all welcome there's grace enough you are

01:50:29.480 the open door. When I've wondered, Lord, there are no outsiders. There are no outsiders to your

01:50:33.860 love. I feel like that's backwards from the way we were saying it. When I've wondered, Lord,

01:50:38.460 something is the open door. I forget how we sing it. But regardless, it conveys this concept of

01:50:45.880 nobody is outside of God's love if you're not listening carefully. I understand when I'm

01:50:53.340 hearing this, what it's saying is anyone can come to Jesus because I have the biblical grounding to

01:50:58.120 understand what that's saying but a person in a progressive church could look at this and go see

01:51:02.400 nobody's outside of god's love even though the bible says that while you were yet enemies to god

01:51:07.980 he died for you right and that like yeah it's those who are inside christ that are his children

01:51:14.000 or yeah universalism everyone goes to heaven i mean that's a broad like jed baza is a universalist

01:51:21.060 in a different way but yeah it gets wonky and you know and then you hear the defensive things

01:51:28.620 like that of like well teach the concept the context before you sing it okay well that's fair

01:51:35.860 you know if you want to use it once or twice you teach the concept but you're going to do that

01:51:39.460 every time you lead it right and then somebody picks up on it later yeah somebody listens to

01:51:45.060 it on their spotify playlist and now the context is gone and they're just listening to you know and

01:51:50.080 so we have to be clear we have to be without um yeah they're very they're they're very slippery

01:51:57.940 they're very sneaky you think that they're done on purpose though no not always maybe i i don't

01:52:05.360 know like this kind of gets into like you guys talked with owen about uh abraham lincoln and

01:52:11.160 jfk i think he brought this up or maybe that was without yeah yeah owen oh i think uh matt actually

01:52:16.560 talked about it yeah that's right yeah um but like owen brought up the point of i'm not saying

01:52:23.020 that that's human influence there so much as a supernatural twisting of things because i don't

01:52:29.500 know that humans could make that happen um and so like this is a much smaller scale thing but i i

01:52:36.180 think when we get lax when we when we kind of set our intentions down and we go oh it's really

01:52:40.840 catchy i need those lyrics get them into me and then steven furtick goes oh hey make sure you put

01:52:45.680 my name on there so it looks like i helped write those and you know that'll help pay for my eight

01:52:50.620 million dollar mansion and my jumbo jet um like when we've got all those things as priorities i

01:52:56.160 think stuff slips through the cracks even if they're not intentionally leading you astray

01:53:01.180 i think the other thing is like for instance this song we just talked about no outsiders it's not

01:53:06.280 wrong like if you know what you're singing but to the baby christian it could mislead you and so i

01:53:14.460 think what has to happen in a lot of these things and we try to do this when we teach a new song

01:53:19.260 a lot of times we'll teach around the lyrics and go like hey here's what we're singing this is why

01:53:25.240 we're singing it this is what it means and we're not always great about that we should do it more

01:53:29.780 often because I think some people tune out when you start talking about the meanings behind the

01:53:34.380 songs you're singing but like it matters the theology of our music matters yeah it's interesting

01:53:41.560 because um you know when people say there's a lot more in history than what is encompassed in the

01:53:47.560 bible and it's like yeah well the bible gave us what's important like what's important to guide

01:53:51.900 us the right way so that we understand the framework of the realm that we inhabit and one

01:53:56.280 of the things that's consistent throughout the bible is repetition so if we're going back to

01:54:00.640 that idea of like uh the wisdom of god being foolishness to the wisdom of man how many different

01:54:07.220 ways is that reiterated right so the bible is very clear about very important things the the

01:54:14.200 repetition is almost such that it makes for like a little bit of a strange reading experience

01:54:19.640 because you don't read something else that repeats the same thing in that many different ways

01:54:23.320 um no 100 like somebody will take that song listen to it enough put that into their theology

01:54:30.020 and then have this idea of i mean again it's slippery because it's like yeah god does love you

01:54:36.660 But if you're not on God's side, that doesn't mean that you're all set. You're in a bad spot if you aren't cleaved to God. If that makes any sense to you.

01:54:51.280 No, absolutely. I mean, he has to be the funnel, like his word has to be the funnel through which you judge everything else, right? And so that's why solid teachers matter, one, for people who don't have the biblical knowledge yet to do this themselves, but two, the importance of reading scripture yourself so you can't be misled by leaders either, and you can discern these things yourself.

01:55:16.600 like it's it back to that it's sort of holistic kind of concept yeah but yeah dude it totally

01:55:21.880 matters it absolutely matters um go ahead well i was gonna say i recognize that this is bad timing

01:55:28.120 because jason just stepped away but we actually have to bring it in for a landing let's do it

01:55:31.580 yeah okay because i don't know if he's going to be back anytime soon but um is there anything

01:55:36.400 that you wanted to touch on before we landed this plane uh jesus christ is the way the truth

01:55:42.100 in the life put your faith in him and don't put your faith in the traditions of men go read the

01:55:47.320 bible go know jesus yourself and have a relationship with him unique community there are no lone wolf

01:55:53.100 christians and yeah i mean i mean that's that's the big one bingo bingo dude one more time where

01:55:59.560 can they find you in your podcast uh yeah anywhere podcasts are available we're on youtube uh a like

01:56:05.720 a follow would be awesome in that regard uh we've got a patreon up you can join for free and see all

01:56:11.120 of our stuff you can do a seven day free trial for our ad free stuff or you can support us that

01:56:15.460 way um otherwise join us on our shows and and say hey in the chat all right you heard them guys

01:56:23.600 zach thanks thanks for coming down man this is a fun conversation and oh you know what jason's

01:56:27.880 coming back so we'll see we just landed the plane we just landed he left he left let's let's let's

01:56:34.360 i'm done um yeah man i mean unless there's anything that jason wants to add uh we're

01:56:40.480 going to wrap it up you got anything love god with all your heart soul mind and strength amen

01:56:45.720 start there is that what y'all said pretty much but that's it i mean yeah as far as you said it

01:56:50.980 better we're talking about reiteration and repetition right what's really important yeah

01:56:54.740 that's what's really important i mean yeah randy was saying it in church not long ago about we

01:56:59.960 talk about what our priorities are and we plural priorities right you just need one yeah love god

01:57:07.020 And all the rest will fall into place and all flow from that.

01:57:10.100 So I think that's the moral of this episode.

01:57:11.800 We've been kind of,

01:57:13.080 it's an interesting conversation to talk about the ins and outs of a lot of

01:57:16.080 this stuff,

01:57:16.480 but yeah,

01:57:17.220 realistically,

01:57:17.640 that's what it comes down to.

01:57:19.360 If you do that,

01:57:20.320 then everything else kind of falls into place and we don't have to worry 0.68

01:57:22.960 about an abortion.

01:57:24.200 I mean, 0.63

01:57:24.500 a worship industry.

01:57:26.320 That's right.

01:57:26.920 Yeah.

01:57:27.240 Don't confuse it to you.

01:57:28.540 It's very hard now.

01:57:29.420 Very different.

01:57:29.780 Very different.

01:57:30.380 Until next time,

01:57:31.120 guys,

01:57:31.360 don't forget to obey,

01:57:32.560 submit and comply.

01:57:34.020 Bye. 0.99

01:57:37.020 Level up death squad 0.89

01:57:48.100 When the last trumpet sounds

01:57:50.180 And the heavens

Nephilim Death Squad - October 16, 2026

The Berean Files： NAR, Worship & Worship Music ｜ NDS

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