Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1378 ｜ Does the Dave Ramsey Method Work for Today’s Economy？｜ George Kamel

00:00:00.580 Does Gen Z have it all wrong when it comes to finances? 1.00

00:00:04.140 Is it really that much harder to pay a mortgage 1.00

00:00:06.820 than it was when our parents were growing up?

00:00:08.940 Today, we've got George Camel.

00:00:10.400 He is a personal finance expert.

00:00:12.340 He is the co-host of The Ramsey Show

00:00:14.280 and Smart Money Happy Hour for Ramsey Solutions.

00:00:18.160 We'll be talking about finances in marriage,

00:00:20.520 some of the biggest myths when it comes

00:00:22.640 to how to spend your money, tithing, so much more.

00:00:26.180 I learned a lot from this conversation and you will too.

00:00:30.000 George, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:00:41.820 For those who may not know, who are you and what do you do?

00:00:44.860 Who am I?

00:00:45.940 It's an existential question.

00:00:47.320 It is.

00:00:47.740 You can go as deep as you want.

00:00:49.100 I'm a Ramsey personality, which means I work under, you know, Dave Ramsey and our crew to help people get out of debt, build wealth, sort of, you know, throw truth at all the lies that they're believing to give them some hope that their financial future is still possible.

00:01:06.040 And too many people have lost hope. And that was kind of my story. I grew up in Boston, immigrant parents from the Middle East. We had a pretty middle class upbringing.

00:01:15.380 they were pretty frugal, but I never really learned about money. And so when it came to

00:01:19.500 college and credit cards, I just went, well, this is the path. This is what you do. Everyone says

00:01:24.760 your life will be great. So I took out a bunch of student loans, was in a bunch of credit card debt

00:01:29.120 and found myself at 23, anxious, broke, stressed, going, they told me it was going to be fine.

00:01:36.780 And so then I spent the next couple of years cleaning it up as I started here as an intern

00:01:40.540 13 years ago. And so they had this course called Financial Peace University. So I went through it

00:01:46.380 and it gave me the motivation to go, you know what? I don't need to wait 10, 20 years.

00:01:50.880 Hope for, you know, student loan forgiveness, hope for someone else to clean up a mess that

00:01:54.840 I made. And so within 18 months, I became completely consumer debt free.

00:01:59.460 And within a decade, I went from negative net worth broke to a net worth millionaire

00:02:04.460 just by following the Ramsey plan as a W-2 employee. And so I want to shout from rooftops,

00:02:09.840 it is possible for anyone out there no matter where they're starting. Okay, you said that your

00:02:13.780 parents grew up in the Middle East, you're first generation American. Can you talk a little bit

00:02:18.480 about your upbringing and maybe how that affected how you thought about finances? Absolutely. So in

00:02:24.360 the Middle Eastern culture, there is a heavy emphasis on the hospitality and the frugality.

00:02:31.340 And so a lot of that is I want people to feel welcome, to feel warm. But there's also this

00:02:36.960 air of like, I want people to feel like I'm doing good. So part of that is you don't really talk

00:02:41.980 about money. It's kind of a faux pas. And so I just learned, hey, we're cutting up coupons on

00:02:46.980 Sunday. I watched my dad drop the tithe check in church. He let me do it, which I thought was

00:02:51.960 really cool. So I want to do it with my kids. If there's still checks once they're old enough,

00:02:55.900 who knows what will happen. So watching us kind of grow up, I saw him stress about money. I saw

00:03:02.160 him open the nine credit cards and try to juggle the points and cash back and and playing the game

00:03:07.780 but they worked really hard there's a work ethic among immigrants that is hard to beat

00:03:12.980 and and they love america like my dad is the guy with the american flag pin who's you know and so

00:03:18.520 they still to this day have an accent i don't understand how but it's you know it's been 35

00:03:22.400 years guys let's let's get it together but i think there's such a a warmth in that culture

00:03:27.540 frugality and that really helped shape the way I spend money. But the way I save money, I had to

00:03:32.500 learn the hard way starting from nothing. And four in 10 Americans have $0 in savings. So I was

00:03:37.600 squarely in that camp going, it's good to save money while you're spending. I didn't realize

00:03:42.360 it's also good to save for the future. So even when I got my first jobs, I was blowing every

00:03:46.400 paycheck. You said that y'all grew up going to church. Your dad spent his tithe money. That

00:03:52.060 might be a little bit surprising for people who heard that your parents grew up in the Middle

00:03:56.400 East, Muslim majority. Can you talk a little bit about their faith and how they pass that down to

00:04:01.340 you? Absolutely. That is a shocking point. I always glance over it and people are like, wait,

00:04:06.760 what? Your family's not Muslim? I'm like, no, they never were. And there is a small population,

00:04:12.680 like 5% of Christians in the Middle East. And thankfully, that's the way that they grew up. 1.00

00:04:18.500 My mom grew up Catholic, actually, and at a young age converted over. And my dad grew up in a kind

00:04:25.300 of a Coptic Orthodox Christian home. And so those values were brought over and they met at an Arabic

00:04:30.940 Baptist church in Houston, Texas. Okay. There's like five of them in the country. I was about to

00:04:35.280 say Arabic Baptist. Yes. So I grew up going to an Arabic evangelical Baptist church in Boston,

00:04:41.360 Massachusetts. And to me, that was normal. Yeah. And it's all Arabic community. A lot of the kids

00:04:45.640 are like me. They speak English, first generation, but the sermons are in Arabic. The Sunday school

00:04:50.460 in English taught by the Arabic ladies. And so it was just a very interesting kind of melting pot

00:04:56.880 of culture. In this very Irish, Italian, Catholic town, I was like the one kid bringing like grape

00:05:02.600 leaves to lunch. You know, all the kids have the PB&Js. Yeah. You mentioned tithing and that even

00:05:09.420 amongst your dad, you know, trying to juggle the saving and the points and the coupons,

00:05:15.220 he was a faithful tither. Talk a little bit more about tithing. It can be, as you know,

00:05:20.100 controversial topic of what it actually means? Does it have to be 10%? Should it be more than

00:05:24.800 10%? Does it have to be your local church? Can it be to charity? Can you kind of give us what

00:05:30.000 the Bible says about tithing and what your perspective is on it? Absolutely. This is

00:05:34.340 surprisingly controversial. I don't know why in today's world. And people who don't have a faith

00:05:39.360 background, it is so confusing to them. Like, why would you work this hard and then just give 10%

00:05:45.060 to the church like why does god need your money i'm like okay let me i always say this way god

00:05:51.040 doesn't need your money he wants your heart and if you can't bother with the 10 then your treasures

00:05:57.800 are not in heaven your treasures are here on earth and you're going i don't trust god that i

00:06:02.840 can live on 90 that's what it is it's obedience it's a trust game and so that's where tithing

00:06:08.620 comes into play and you know tithe when you look at the actual roots of the word is a tenth and

00:06:13.920 it's a 10th of your first fruit. So the prophets. So it's not necessarily, you know, people want to

00:06:18.960 argue, is it gross or is it net? And what if I get a gift? And I think the more legalistic we get

00:06:24.000 about it, the further away we get from the heart of tithing. You know, God loves a cheerful giver.

00:06:29.620 And if we're doing the math and calculations to make sure that we don't give a decimal more or

00:06:33.400 decimal less, I think we've lost the plot. And so it really is a matter of the heart. We always say,

00:06:38.620 give a little until you can give a lot. There's beautiful parables in the Bible of, you know,

00:06:43.420 if the lady had a penny to give. And that was more, it meant more for her than the guy who gave

00:06:48.960 the 10% of his riches. And so I think it's wise to remember that it really is, it stems from the

00:06:55.560 heart. What is your posture towards this? Are you doing it because it's an obligation or are you

00:07:01.080 doing it out of a thank you, Jesus, for providing me with the blessings in my life? And tithe goes

00:07:06.920 to your local church. Some people say, oh, well, as long as it's going to some kind of Christian 0.95

00:07:11.380 nonprofit. It's basically the same. It is for the mission of the church. And so to me, there's the 0.99

00:07:17.520 tithe. And then if you want to give above me on that, be my guest. And so that's what we do in

00:07:21.800 my house is we have our tithe and then we separate out the nonprofits, the ministries that we want to

00:07:27.640 give to outside of that. But there is something about investing into your local community and

00:07:32.980 the people there and the pastors and the staff and the missions that they have going on. I think

00:07:38.320 one, you're more connected to it, it means more. Is it possible to be unwise with charitable giving?

00:07:45.840 Well, we've run into people who are, they're giving so much that it's leaving their own

00:07:50.340 families in a lurch. And so we always say, you know, you want to make sure that your family

00:07:54.980 is taken care of. So if you're giving 30%, I love that. But if you're also broke, stressed,

00:08:02.140 your marriage is, you know, on the rocks, your kids are struggling, you can't put food on the

00:08:07.000 table. Well, that's not biblical in any way. You've got to take care of your family. And so

00:08:12.940 that means here's what we have to do. Get our finances right, get out of debt, have more margin

00:08:18.760 so that we can get back to giving as much as we want. And that takes a lot of intentionality.

00:08:24.360 Giving happens from abundance. It's hard to give when you don't have anything to give.

00:08:28.840 And it's why the baby steps exist. They don't exist to hoard it up and go,

00:08:32.280 we got 10 million. It is live and give like no one else. Build wealth and give is the final baby

00:08:37.680 step. And that looks different for everyone. So you're saying that it is a biblical responsibility

00:08:43.040 to first care for and steward your family well. Yeah. I mean, the Bible says you're worse than

00:08:48.520 an unbeliever. If you don't take care of your family members. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty 1.00

00:08:52.380 striking language there. Right. That'll put me, all right, let's make sure that my house is in

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00:10:28.480 You've talked about this idea that all money is God's money.

00:10:32.860 And, you know, some people might nod their head at that.

00:10:35.980 But then when it comes down to it, it doesn't always feel that way.

00:10:40.280 You were talking about that mentality of feeling like, I only have this much.

00:10:44.000 Are you really asking me to give this 10% away?

00:10:46.900 It feels like, you know, millions of dollars to me in this moment.

00:10:50.340 But what does it mean to shift our mentality to this is no longer mine, but God's?

00:10:55.060 I think people underestimate the freedom that exists when you go, you know what? I'm a steward

00:11:00.660 of this money. It's not mine. I'm managing for someone else. And when you do that, you look at

00:11:06.160 money through a whole different lens. Because now it's not all about me and my selfishness and what

00:11:10.820 could I do with this. It frees me to go, okay, it's God's money. I want to do three things with

00:11:16.620 it. Enjoy it, save it, invest it wisely, and give it. Now we at least have three buckets we can

00:11:23.840 you know use our money for that's already freeing in and of itself to go okay there's only three

00:11:28.400 things we can do it doesn't have to be that complicated now in those three things how do

00:11:32.160 we enjoy it wisely well obviously we don't want to you know use it on debauchery but you can use

00:11:37.740 it to go on vacation you can use it to upgrade the car you can use it to have a nice house that's

00:11:43.700 okay those things aren't evil in and of themselves and investing we saw this with the parable of the

00:11:48.360 talents. Who got all the accolades? The guy who actually planted it and grew the money versus the

00:11:54.560 guy who planted it and nothing came of it. And it was just wasted. And so you want to make sure that

00:11:59.720 you're stewarding this well, that it's growing so that you can give an inheritance to your

00:12:03.480 children's children, as Proverbs says. And lastly, giving. Giving is talked about a whole lot.

00:12:09.420 And I think, you know, with the 2300 scriptures about wealth and possessions, I think the authors

00:12:15.780 of the Bible knew that we would struggle with the treasures on earth part more than the treasures

00:12:20.980 in heaven part. And so there's a reason why there's so much language. There's so many scriptures

00:12:26.240 about money, how to handle it, what it's for, what it's not for, the borrower is a slave to

00:12:31.020 the lender. There's a reason it's talked about. And even today, thousands of years later,

00:12:35.680 it hits more than ever. You talk about that parable of the talents, the guy who hid the

00:12:41.500 talent away the master comes back and you're like you know my paraphrasing he's like stupid wicked 0.98

00:12:47.740 why did you do that you made the bad decision and even if that's not an exact metaphor for 0.98

00:12:54.740 stewarding our cash and our money i think that there are ways to interpret that is it possible

00:13:00.900 to be too frugal is it possible yes say someone's tithing but the rest of the 90 that they have

00:13:08.040 They don't want to do anything with it except hold tight to it.

00:13:11.820 Is that wrong?

00:13:13.520 So is frugality a sin?

00:13:15.520 I feel like that's, it'd be hard to put that in the sin category.

00:13:20.120 But I do think that the idea of frugality, if it's just to save, save, save, and there's

00:13:25.740 nothing on the other side, which is why am I being frugal?

00:13:28.700 To create margin, to have kingdom impact.

00:13:31.180 Great.

00:13:31.800 That's a healthy motive.

00:13:33.280 But if it's just to save because I'm miserly and I have a scarcity mindset,

00:13:37.600 there is no biblical scripture to back that up.

00:13:40.980 What specifically in the Bible helps us understand clearly

00:13:44.580 kind of that right mentality of stewarding our money and tithing in the right way?

00:13:50.540 Well, I always go back to what does the Bible actually say about the tithe,

00:13:53.920 not what do I feel about it?

00:13:55.660 What did I hear in a sermon?

00:13:58.160 And so I love this verse from Malachi 3.

00:14:00.980 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse.

00:14:02.740 that there may be food in my house i love this part test me in this says the lord almighty and

00:14:07.220 see if i will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there

00:14:11.540 will not be room enough to store it i mean that's pretty shocking there's not many scriptures that

00:14:16.880 say test me in this i mean most of the time you hear do not test me says the lord your god you

00:14:22.260 know he's like hey test me see if your life will be worse if you're obedient yeah those are pretty

00:14:28.080 strong words. And then we have in Proverbs 3, honor the Lord with your wealth, with the first

00:14:32.960 fruits of all your crops. Then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim

00:14:36.800 over with new wine. So there's an interesting concept here, which is if I give, I will have

00:14:43.760 less, right? I had 100%, now I have 90%. The Bible is saying that's not how it actually works.

00:14:50.780 When you give, there is abundance on the other side. There is blessing on the other side.

00:14:55.720 Now, this is not prosperity gospel, where if I give 10, I'm going to get back 20.

00:14:59.840 It's not that kind of spiritual vending machine.

00:15:02.160 But I do think it changes you.

00:15:04.600 And therefore, you go act differently.

00:15:07.620 You live differently.

00:15:08.620 You work differently.

00:15:09.720 And those kinds of people tend to succeed in life.

00:15:12.660 Generous people are attractive. 0.97

00:15:14.380 Right.

00:15:14.880 Has there ever been a time that you can think of in your life where you were scared to be

00:15:19.900 generous and then you did it?

00:15:21.960 You obeyed despite that hesitation, and then you saw the blessing on the other side.

00:15:26.840 Absolutely.

00:15:27.500 I remember times where it was more closed-fisted.

00:15:31.280 Like, I kind of, like, had to, through my teeth, you were sort of letting go.

00:15:36.300 And in the letting go, you feel like the muscles give out.

00:15:39.840 Like, oh, this was so much more relaxing and freeing than having it.

00:15:44.120 Like, I thought about it so much, about how much should I give?

00:15:47.700 And, you know, what about this nonprofit?

00:15:49.780 And what about this over here?

00:15:51.000 And, you know, we have friends that are missionaries and I have no clue how they're doing.

00:15:56.340 I don't keep up with it.

00:15:57.580 So there's times you're like, should I take that out of the budget and rip that away?

00:16:02.380 And I go, no, we've been doing great so far.

00:16:05.420 We've been blessed.

00:16:06.460 We have had full abundance.

00:16:08.360 Why am I now trying to close the grip?

00:16:11.320 And I think anytime I go to close the grip, I go, what is going on inside of me that is

00:16:15.500 causing this?

00:16:16.260 And it's usually these exterior kind of worldly forces at play versus going, no, remind me

00:16:22.520 what this was all about.

00:16:23.420 It was not about me.

00:16:24.860 It was about kingdom impact.

00:16:27.200 And so I can't think of much better ways to spend your money than on kingdom impact.

00:16:31.620 And the hardest part about that is you don't always get to see the effects.

00:16:35.040 Yeah.

00:16:35.560 On this side of eternity.

00:16:36.860 Exactly.

00:16:37.520 Yeah.

00:16:38.160 You talk to people every day who are struggling with debt, struggling with their finances.

00:16:43.100 I see a lot of chatter on X about the affordability crisis and how baby boomers just don't get it.

00:16:50.180 They don't get what millennials and Gen Z are facing.

00:16:53.300 What do you think the real problem is?

00:16:54.920 Do you think it is more of a spending problem, the same problem that people have always had, irresponsibility,

00:17:00.240 not understanding how much they're spending, what they really need versus what they want?

00:17:05.040 And that's what's creating this debt crisis?

00:17:07.440 Or do you truly think that young people today have it uniquely hard?

00:17:13.100 Well, there's the data part and there's the emotion part. And I do think that when it comes

00:17:17.840 to, you know, intergenerational conversations, we're not hearing each other. The boomers hear 0.98

00:17:23.580 complaints and they go, oh, shut up. It was hard for me too. That's not what they want to hear. 0.99

00:17:28.840 What they want to hear is, hey, you know what? It is hard. And here's what I've learned. And I hope

00:17:32.980 this helps. If we just started having those kinds of conversations, we'd all get along better at

00:17:37.440 Thanksgiving. But all you hear is the boomer saying, oh, it's not that hard to buy. You're

00:17:41.900 throwing away money on rent, go buy a house. And the millennials are going, I don't think you

00:17:46.960 understand what a $400,000 mortgage at 6% actually costs. And so there's a math reality to it that

00:17:54.280 back in the boomers days, the average home was two to three times the average income,

00:17:59.320 the median income. And nowadays, it's five to six times the median income. So there is a legitimate

00:18:04.400 math problem here to solve with this affordability crisis. And it sounds very woe is me and cynical

00:18:11.880 I think it's overblown in the media because it gets a lot of clicks and who doesn't want to

00:18:16.360 have an empathetic voice telling them that they're not crazy, that they're not alone.

00:18:21.220 And so I feel like my job on the money side is to say, you're not crazy and this isn't hopeless.

00:18:27.160 Now, is it going to be easy? Will it take you four or five more years than it did for your

00:18:31.440 parents to buy a home? Are cars more expensive? Yes. That doesn't mean you need to go out and

00:18:36.300 buy a brand new car. And so that's the fallacy here is, well, the median home price is this,

00:18:41.340 the average new car is this, that doesn't mean that you have to be average. That doesn't mean

00:18:45.680 that you need the median home. Your first home might be well below the median, which by the way,

00:18:51.100 that means half the homes are lower than that 400,000 mark. Half of them are higher.

00:18:56.180 And so same with cars. We see this all the time. People go, well, I had to buy a $35,000 car

00:19:01.040 because ours needed a repair. And I go, oh, you had to. So that's the language that tells me that

00:19:06.780 there is there is like a victim toddler inside who just wants the thing and justifies it with

00:19:12.600 well life is hard I deserve it I work hard and I go you're right you work too hard to be broke

00:19:19.060 and making these decisions will keep you in that cycle so there is a math part there's a behavior

00:19:24.900 part there's the emotional part and I think we need to kind of just get some clarity on the

00:19:29.800 actual facts the actual numbers because I found when people lean too far into the emotion I can

00:19:34.520 get them out with logic and math. Hey, tell me what actually is going on. What are the numbers?

00:19:40.260 Oh, your mortgage payment is not on fire. It's $2,000 out of your $8,000 income. That's not the

00:19:45.880 problem. Or if they're too focused on the numbers, I take them into the emotional part. Hey, what kind

00:19:51.460 of life do you want? What would it feel like to have a paid off mortgage as you toil over the

00:19:55.860 numbers? And so I find that kind of leaning into both levers really helps me to find some moderation

00:20:01.600 and temperance. Yeah. And what I'm about to say, I'm not a finance guru. That's definitely not my

00:20:07.200 beat. And I don't want to dismiss the very real concerns people have about affordability and it

00:20:11.640 taking longer, four to five years in a young person's life is a long time. Yeah. When they

00:20:16.400 think about, okay, well, I want to have kids. I need more space for that and all of that. So

00:20:21.060 I can understand someone legitimately struggling with that. I do wonder as someone who sees the

00:20:27.620 social media world up close and personal if our tolerance for ugly and outdated has shrunk if it's

00:20:34.500 very low like i think about my parents different era but got married in 1980 lived in a rundown

00:20:40.820 house the step up they would say was the double wide they moved into after that infested with

00:20:46.760 water bugs which if people don't know they're like cockroaches but yeah even worse my mom would say

00:20:53.140 she still has a phobia of those. Raising my oldest brother when they were 20 and 21,

00:20:59.100 really difficult. But I wonder if they would have even opted for those very frugal options

00:21:05.620 if Instagram had been a thing. I just think that a lot of people expect to be able to afford the

00:21:12.640 newly updated home with quartz countertops because anything other than that feels poor,

00:21:18.000 or it feels ugly or it feels gross.

00:21:21.040 And I'm not saying that that superficiality

00:21:23.140 is characterizing every single millennial

00:21:25.360 and Gen Z out there,

00:21:26.360 but I even feel it in myself.

00:21:28.300 Like my own expectations for aesthetics have changed

00:21:31.000 from where they were 10, 15 years ago

00:21:33.500 and the expectation to constantly be new and clean

00:21:37.020 and most up-to-date and prettiest.

00:21:39.160 I think that's really compelling for people

00:21:41.700 and that shifts our mentality

00:21:43.500 about what we are entitled to

00:21:46.060 and what we need and what we deserve, even if we're only making $40,000 a year. Do you think

00:21:52.020 that's part of it? 100%. We have shifted from a generation that is just trying to survive.

00:22:00.360 And I'm not talking about paycheck to paycheck. I'm talking about Great Depression survival. 0.51

00:22:05.600 And now with each new generation, we have become wealthier. Now, it may not feel like it in the

00:22:11.000 short term, but when you think about our quality of living and our standard of living and what we

00:22:15.600 have access to, it is worlds different than it was for our parents and grandparents. So you're

00:22:21.720 right in that that home with the knotty pine backboard that I grew up with, thousand square

00:22:27.060 foot home, one bathroom, people aren't buying one bathroom homes anymore. They go, well, I need at

00:22:33.120 least a three bed, two and a half bath. This townhome is not big enough for our family.

00:22:37.520 I do think that we just like having more space, millennials, especially in Gen Z. We care more

00:22:43.260 about aesthetic we now know like feng shui and like how it affects our emotional well-being and

00:22:48.040 we want natural light and that's that's all great but we've become sort of over evolved

00:22:52.820 to where anything less is now pain and suffering and i get it i'm i'm an aesthetic person i like

00:23:00.540 to have a beautiful home and that's where i put a lot of my effort and there's other things that i

00:23:05.300 don't care about and so you need to as a person decide where are my values why are they there

00:23:10.360 Is it because of comparison? Teddy Roosevelt said that's the thief of joy. And I love the way

00:23:15.280 Pastor Craig Rochelle says it. Comparison will either cause you to feel inferior, lesser than,

00:23:20.880 or superior, better than. And both are not biblical. And so therefore, what place does

00:23:26.740 comparison really have? And so the way I like to look at comparison is the only time I'm going to

00:23:31.580 look at my neighbor's bowls to make sure they have enough. If you can have that mentality and

00:23:36.440 stop caring about what other people think it is a superpower in today's world yeah and that might

00:23:40.800 mean buying the fixer upper house and the cabinets desperately need to be redone but it's a home

00:23:47.560 yeah and guess what your child does not care right what they care about do i have present

00:23:52.840 functional healthy adults who aren't fighting constantly great i'd rather be have that in a

00:23:59.940 worse home than a really beautiful home that is stressing mom and dad out to the point that

00:24:03.720 they're on the brink of divorce. So that's what you really have to weigh. And know that anything

00:24:07.940 you have in your life is not your forever thing. The car, the home. It bothers me when people say,

00:24:13.400 well, this is going to be our forever home. Your forever homes with Jesus. And you might have this

00:24:18.400 home for 10, 20, maybe even 30 years. But let's not get it twisted and justify bad decisions

00:24:23.280 because we feel like this is it.

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00:25:37.460 How do you talk to your kids? I know your kids are super little, so maybe it's how do you plan

00:25:41.760 to talk to your kids about money? One of my kids the other day asked me, what's rich? I was like,

00:25:48.020 I you know I guess we hadn't really talked about that and they're like you know who's rich that we

00:25:54.840 know like what does that what does that mean to be rich it's like well you you have a lot of money

00:25:59.940 are we rich no we have food and we have clothes we have a house and you get to go to school and

00:26:04.980 that's wonderful but it made me think like how should I be talking to my kids who are also pretty

00:26:10.160 little but older than yours about money because I don't want to just dismiss it as something oh

00:26:15.640 that's inappropriate. You should never talk about that. But I also don't want them to be fixated on

00:26:19.980 it. And I definitely don't want them to be comparing. Yeah. Well, you know, it's always

00:26:24.180 age appropriate. So how I talk to my three-year-old is going to be different than how you

00:26:27.580 talk to your seven-year-old. But there is a, Dave loves to say this. He goes, well, I'm rich. You're

00:26:33.900 not. Let me make that very clear. And so there's a level of the kids don't have access to this money

00:26:41.120 unless you cause them to be entitled and go,

00:26:44.340 you can get anything you want anytime, no questions asked.

00:26:47.500 That's a recipe for disaster as a parent.

00:26:50.420 But what you can say is, hey, at the store,

00:26:53.140 that's not a priority for us right now.

00:26:55.360 We have toys at home.

00:26:57.660 And so anytime the kid has an opportunity to spend,

00:27:00.100 it's a good opportunity to remind them where money comes from,

00:27:03.300 which is from work.

00:27:04.740 Money is earned.

00:27:05.680 It is not just growing on the money tree.

00:27:08.660 and that they can actually participate in that.

00:27:11.600 So you can watch mom and dad spend at the grocery store

00:27:15.080 and if you can do it with cash,

00:27:16.080 it's even better as an exercise

00:27:17.360 because the problem is now with Apple Pay and cards,

00:27:21.460 you're literally tapping, you're just nearby it

00:27:23.760 and then you magically get your stuff and go home.

00:27:26.520 Well, the kid never understands what just happened.

00:27:29.480 They just go, well, you have a magic wand that you wave

00:27:32.820 and then you take the stuff and go.

00:27:35.040 But back in the day, you had to hand over

00:27:36.940 all of this money that you worked so hard for. And you got to see that. So I think that's a

00:27:42.580 harder thing to teach because we've gotten to such a sort of touchless digital society. But what you

00:27:48.700 can do is show them that, hey, there's things you do in this house because you are a part of this

00:27:52.160 family. You clean your room, you brush your teeth. I'm not going to pay you a commission for that.

00:27:57.800 But there might be commissionable chores that you also have. And we have an awesome product

00:28:02.000 called Financial Peace Junior that kind of lays this all out with a chore board and they can keep

00:28:05.980 track of it. And the other part of this is, teach them that there's only three things you can do

00:28:11.240 with money. Give, save, spend. And then teach them early on the joy of giving. Not the obligation

00:28:18.540 of giving. Because if you go, hey, we have to give 10%, you go, hey, we get to give 10%. We get

00:28:24.100 to write a check to the church today. And they're going to do that. Look at this mission trip they're

00:28:27.780 going on. See those kids up there on the screen? They need our help. Now the kid is participating

00:28:32.500 in this instead of just seeing money as this kind of amoral tool they see what it can do

00:28:38.200 they see how it can bring enjoyment they see how it can grow and there's the old marshmallow test

00:28:43.180 where they give a kid one marshmallow and say if you wait 20 minutes you can have two and it's a

00:28:48.900 great practice in delayed gratification yeah which for a child and most adults is the hardest thing

00:28:53.940 to learn is just patience not now when we have the money we will do xyz and if you can just start

00:29:01.580 teaching your kids those simple things at an age-appropriate level, they're going to be just

00:29:05.320 fine. They're not going to grow up to be spoiled, entitled brats. And the more you talk about it,

00:29:09.360 the better off they're going to be versus not talking about it. Because where are they going

00:29:13.100 to learn it? Social media, society, culture. That's not where you want your kids learning

00:29:18.940 about the most important things in life. Yeah. There was one time, one moment where I realized

00:29:25.540 the mistake that I had just made in not teaching one of my kids delayed gratification because to

00:29:32.200 your point now that's something we have to intentionally seek after because we could do

00:29:37.220 away with almost all delayed gratification if we wanted to everything is so instant and the time I

00:29:43.420 did not teach her very well about this is you know how on the back of the book there are the different

00:29:49.680 books that correlate with that book either in that series or other golden books yeah she's like I

00:29:55.320 want that one. And I remember pulling out my phone, pulling out Amazon and buying it. And it

00:30:01.020 was there the next day. I'm not saying that there was something malicious or terrible about that,

00:30:06.260 but I just remember in that moment, she probably doesn't even remember. I think she was three years

00:30:10.560 old. Just remember thinking, wow, I, if I continue on that, like if that's all we did to teach our

00:30:17.140 kids about, oh, you want something, I can just click a button and it's here tomorrow. They have

00:30:21.880 no understanding at all that there are people who have to work on that. There's a process.

00:30:28.240 There's money to be spent. It's not just a button to be pressed. And so, yeah, my husband and I

00:30:33.420 have really tried to think of ways that, okay, how do we delay this gratification even if it's

00:30:39.400 not a big deal to buy that $4 book? It doesn't hurt us financially. It's not about the dollar

00:30:43.000 amount. Yes. It's about the mentality that it fosters. And you really don't want your kids

00:30:48.820 to have that lazy perspective on life, whether you are very wealthy and you're going to pass

00:30:55.360 down that wealth or whether you're struggling financially, it just doesn't set them up for

00:30:59.640 success. Yeah, that is so true. And it's a good reminder that more is caught than taught. The

00:31:05.220 way they see you live your life is how they're actually going to behave and follow, not just

00:31:09.860 what you say. And so for my family, when it comes to lay gratification, my daughter wants a lot of

00:31:16.080 things at three years old. And she sees the back of that. Or we go to Costco or Sam's Club and

00:31:21.820 she's like, Bluey Bounce House, I want it. I'm like, you know what? Maybe we'll put that in

00:31:26.220 the budget and we're going to come back and get it. And so as they get older, you can actually

00:31:29.680 show your kids the line item in the budget of how we're saving for this thing. And you can do some

00:31:34.940 basic math as they get older and go, hey, this thing is $200. We're going to save up $50 each

00:31:40.560 month and in four months mark it on the calendar we're gonna have enough money to buy that thing

00:31:46.260 let them participate and even if it's not their own money or own commission chores it's hard for

00:31:50.580 a five-year-old to save up two hundred dollars so you get to decide what makes sense for your

00:31:54.620 family where you are financially you know is grandma gonna buy that for the birthday great

00:31:59.460 you know but there's also a level of other people spoiling your kids has a ramification yeah because

00:32:05.060 now you're the you're the bad guy you're the one holding us back grandma and uncle jimmy

00:32:09.880 they're happy to buy whatever I want anytime I want it I'll just go to them and so you want to

00:32:14.400 have a conversation with family too if that's happening to say hey we're trying to teach our

00:32:19.660 kids this I appreciate that you love them so much you want to spoil them but we're trying to make

00:32:24.600 sure she understands that just because you say I want it doesn't mean it's going to arrive at the

00:32:29.220 door the next day yeah it's funny how grandparents become different than they were when they raised us

00:32:36.280 Wait, was this person when I was a kid?

00:32:37.880 I know.

00:32:38.440 It's so funny, my dad especially.

00:32:40.560 I remember growing up, my parents worked very hard.

00:32:43.580 I'm the youngest, so by the time I came around,

00:32:46.720 they weren't living in the double wide anymore.

00:32:48.580 Comfortable upbringing and all of that,

00:32:50.680 but there were things, you were talking earlier

00:32:52.620 about how you invest money in certain things,

00:32:55.220 like a beautiful home, things like that,

00:32:57.060 and my parents were the same way,

00:32:58.360 but the little things, the little designer things

00:33:01.000 that other people maybe had that I went to school with,

00:33:04.140 My parents were very, my mom was very hesitant about, you don't need that.

00:33:08.040 Maybe for Christmas, it was never an instant thing just because other people had it.

00:33:12.640 And I was always so confused by that because I'm like, we can afford that.

00:33:16.360 I know that, you know, this person over here has that.

00:33:18.600 I know that we can afford that.

00:33:19.660 Why can't I have the Skechers?

00:33:20.940 Why can't I have the phone right away? 0.53

00:33:22.900 But they were teaching me, they were teaching me something, not only about delayed gratification,

00:33:27.540 but also about comparison.

00:33:29.240 Just because someone else has something doesn't mean you deserve it.

00:33:33.060 doesn't mean you're entitled to it and it's not the most important thing for you to have the

00:33:37.320 latest and greatest not that i had to suffer through not having anything but yeah it was a

00:33:43.200 good it was a good mentality that they gave me growing up now when it comes to their granddaughters

00:33:49.320 they're like what come on just you can't take it with you come on she just needs this right now

00:33:55.680 and it's so funny you know how that shifts but that's kind of part of their role that keep it

00:33:59.920 up with the joneses is real because when everyone around you has it or the every kid in the

00:34:04.600 neighborhood has the motorized bike and your kid now wants that motorized bike you have to have

00:34:10.200 that value in the family saying no we're not doing it and here's the reason why i think a lot of kids

00:34:14.340 just hear no and there's not really any thought behind it it's just the parent says nope shut it

00:34:18.540 down but if you explain why time and time again they understand and over time even if they don't

00:34:23.860 appreciate it now one day they're going to look back and go i'm thankful for that level of

00:34:28.540 discipline i'm thankful that we weren't just doing things without a care in the world because

00:34:32.920 i don't want my daughter to have that motorized bike because i see how fast those things go

00:34:36.880 and i know how many er visits happen a year on those things so i'm like so and i'm like the

00:34:41.760 anxious dad my wife's like just relax she'll be fine yeah but there's still a level of you're the

00:34:47.360 parent it's your job to be responsible for them take care of them and part of that is the financial

00:34:52.420 aspect of raising them right when it comes to money and too many too many parents have shame

00:34:56.140 around it. They go, well, who am I to tell my kids about money? I've made so many mistakes.

00:35:01.100 And you need to release that and go, it's time to change your family tree. That means having

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00:36:33.340 Back to the kind of millennial Gen Z as we're talking about the young people conversation.

00:36:39.440 Talked about being able to buy a home. How much is the affordability crisis?

00:36:45.100 how much of it really has to do with everyday spending. I see a lot of Gen Z's making fun of

00:36:53.320 this mentality that, oh, trust me, me not being able to afford a mortgage has nothing to do with

00:36:58.220 Uber Eats, has nothing to do with Starbucks, has nothing to do with the clothes that I buy going

00:37:03.000 to Lululemon. Are they right or wrong about that? Well, I think looking at your bank account

00:37:10.640 will tell me a lot about what you value.

00:37:13.580 And so if I look at your bank account

00:37:15.360 and I see a whole lot of DoorDash

00:37:16.740 and a whole lot of Uber Eats,

00:37:18.220 what that tells me is,

00:37:19.860 well, you don't care that much about this other thing

00:37:22.020 because every dollar you spend is making two choices.

00:37:24.820 You're voting for one thing,

00:37:26.480 which means you're not voting for these other things.

00:37:29.060 And that's okay, but you have to understand that,

00:37:31.280 the trade-offs, the opportunity costs that exist

00:37:33.460 when it comes to money.

00:37:35.040 And it's hard to see it in the day-to-day.

00:37:37.420 When you spend $10, it doesn't seem like that much money.

00:37:40.640 but then you go well that was $300 this month that's $3,600 a year yeah that's $7,200 in two

00:37:46.680 years just cutting out that if you can just learn to live off $10 less than you did yesterday

00:37:51.400 and do that consistently you will have $7,000 in two years if you do nothing else but put it

00:37:57.040 under your bed that's crazy to think about now for a lot of people that go well that's not enough

00:38:00.880 to buy a house so therefore I'm not going to save anything well now we've shifted to this

00:38:06.380 other side of a spectrum where i don't know if i can help you if your mindset is you know just

00:38:11.540 financial nihilism and that's why people are turning to these riskier things like sports

00:38:16.020 betting and poly market and call she they are so over this like retirement angle and one day i'm

00:38:23.340 gonna own a home and work hard and 40 years later they're going i'm gonna put all on black and hope

00:38:28.800 that i strike it rich and that's the part that really scares me is that level of cynicism is

00:38:34.180 going to cause people to stay in that cycle and make it worse. And I love Proverbs 13, 11,

00:38:39.340 wealth gained hastily will dwindle. Whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

00:38:44.100 And so it really is death by a thousand cuts. And that's not fun to have that kind of discipline.

00:38:48.900 You see this in Romans, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but after it yields a

00:38:54.060 harvest of righteousness. And so that's the kind of mentality that I think we're missing

00:38:58.320 with the younger generations. They're really sharp. They are super smart. They can figure

00:39:03.360 it out they can have a youtube channel spun up and have it monetized by the end of the week

00:39:07.620 the boomers barely know their youtube login by that point and so there's a lot of things that

00:39:12.740 are to their advantage but what they need to realize is that no one's coming to save them

00:39:17.160 it's up to them and they have more power than they think to make that change so if they're

00:39:22.260 making minimum wage nobody's forcing you to make minimum wage there's some people who that's where

00:39:27.220 they're at and i try to break them out of that and help them find work in a career that's

00:39:31.460 meaningful that can pay you well those jobs exist once you see people making like a million dollars

00:39:37.420 like oh money is like it's it is kind of like a game of monopoly there's just it's almost like

00:39:42.760 fake when you see how much wealth exists and you go well that's not for me people think that wealth

00:39:48.520 is predestined and predetermined like a WWE match or genetics and it's not I didn't grow up wealthy

00:39:54.440 I'm creating that for myself I'm creating the privilege that I wish I had and I think that's

00:40:01.260 privilege has gotten a really kind of bad taste in people's mouth because they think

00:40:04.980 entitled brats, trust funds. And I'm going, no, we all want a better life for our kids.

00:40:11.080 That's privilege. If you do that successfully, you have created, quote unquote, privilege.

00:40:15.620 And so I think that's, if you think a bigger picture than just tomorrow, and I'm too lazy

00:40:21.000 to cook, whatever it is, if you can think five years from now, where do I want to be?

00:40:25.280 I'd love to be a homeowner. Great. Let's craft a goal that gets us there. Instead of five years

00:40:29.740 from now, we're just five years older and just as miserable. So you still think it is possible

00:40:35.300 with inflation, the financial situation, economic situation, how it is in America for a young person

00:40:41.960 to still be able to, who comes from nothing, say they've got college debt, they are in a minimum

00:40:46.820 wage job, but they have some kind of ambition for more. They don't know what it is, but they

00:40:51.200 do want to be financially free. It's possible for that person to pull themselves up by the

00:40:55.820 bootstraps, work hard and reach their financial goals. There's a level of, you know, I know the

00:41:02.380 pull themselves up by the bootstraps has become the boomerism that everyone hates, which is, 0.94

00:41:08.120 well, you just need to try harder. And I think this generation is going, dude, I'm already 0.56

00:41:12.720 working hard. Yeah. What's crazy is we get calls on their empty show and someone calls in at 68

00:41:17.880 and they go, well, I worked hard my whole life. I got nothing to show for it. Working hard

00:41:23.140 isn't enough. And at work ethic is good. You need that. But simply just going to a job 40 hours a

00:41:30.060 week does not guarantee you a great life. And that is unfortunate. We can all grieve that,

00:41:35.640 that it's a sad state of reality that we all can go to work 40, 50 hours a week,

00:41:39.920 have nothing to show for it, and still not be able to have everything we want.

00:41:43.360 So therefore, now I go, okay, what is the thing you want? What would it actually take for you to

00:41:48.260 get there what kind of job would it require for you to have that level of income and now what

00:41:53.540 steps can we take to build toward that i'm too logical for my own good that's how it actually

00:41:58.920 works in reality but most people are going yeah but what i want to do i can't make money there

00:42:04.940 are people streaming on twitch making 10 times what i make playing video games talking to an

00:42:11.660 audience watching it don't do that don't do that i'm that's my person that's my personal opinion

00:42:16.880 And my personal opinion is to don't go that direction to make the money.

00:42:20.120 Yeah, and I don't want to encourage that.

00:42:21.960 But to act like it's too hard to make money.

00:42:25.060 I think there's a level of people who just go, I'm entrepreneurial.

00:42:28.360 I'm going to figure it out.

00:42:29.500 And people who go, I'm going to wait for something to be handed to me.

00:42:32.300 And I think there's Gen Zers who are thriving.

00:42:34.940 There's millennials who are thriving.

00:42:36.220 There's ones who are struggling.

00:42:37.360 But the loudest ones are going to be the ones struggling.

00:42:40.880 And so that's what you usually see on social media.

00:42:43.560 Therefore, you feel like this is all around us.

00:42:45.780 But we have people on our debt-free stage who go, oh, we paid off our house at 28 because we started doing this stuff early.

00:42:52.480 We got out of debt.

00:42:53.380 We stayed out of debt.

00:42:54.600 We live very simply.

00:42:56.600 And so there's trade-offs to be made on all sides.

00:42:58.760 There's sacrifices to be made, and you can't have the cake and eat it too.

00:43:02.440 Yeah.

00:43:03.160 Yeah, on X, it's like everyone's poor.

00:43:05.960 And then on Instagram, it's like everyone's rich.

00:43:08.060 That's so true.

00:43:09.320 Yeah, I was just thinking about that as you were talking.

00:43:11.780 And I think about, you know, not knocking influencers like a lot of these people are very entrepreneurial. They're just sharing their life and what they do and they're able to monetize that. But there definitely is a level of, you know, probably overconsumption and materialism that can come with that world, certainly can foster comparison.

00:43:31.840 and also an idea in the minds of a lot of people that, wow, that $5 million house that they have

00:43:40.560 is totally attainable for me too right now, or I deserve that. I want that right now.

00:43:45.940 And it also just kind of makes you think if you're on Instagram, well, everyone's rich.

00:43:50.480 Like everyone has so much stuff and the latest Escalade and all of that. I wonder what you think

00:43:56.580 would surprise the average person about how Americans, not just influencers, but anyone

00:44:04.100 that may appear wealthy and you're like, how is that even possible that everyone has this amount

00:44:08.580 of money? What would surprise us about how people actually spent their money?

00:44:15.820 Well, we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America, over 10,000 of them.

00:44:19.760 And what was shocking to me was they are the everyday guy or gal next door who you would

00:44:26.380 never assume has a lot of money.

00:44:28.820 So what I find is there's really three camps when you look next to your car at the red

00:44:33.260 light and you're like, wow, that person must have money.

00:44:35.820 And the easiest assumption is to go, they didn't earn that or they have a lot of money

00:44:41.120 from a trust fund, whatever it may be.

00:44:43.220 But there's three camps.

00:44:44.160 Either they are broken in debt and they're highly leveraged and they have a giant payment

00:44:48.720 on that thing and that is nothing to envy. And what's highly leveraged? That means they are in

00:44:53.440 crippling debt. They are paycheck to paycheck. Even though they make $300,000, they're still

00:44:58.620 paycheck to paycheck. They have nothing in savings. That scares me and I go, great. Now I don't have

00:45:03.860 to be jealous of that guy. I wouldn't want to trade lives with him to have that car. Now the

00:45:08.180 other side is maybe they were super intentional and they saved up and paid cash for that thing

00:45:12.880 and that meant a lot to them for whatever reason. Great. Now I can celebrate that. And then the other

00:45:18.620 part is the middle which is oh they didn't work hard for that at all mommy and daddy bought them

00:45:23.440 that and now I can be a little bit jealous and go well okay either I don't agree with that I would

00:45:30.680 not want to give my kids all this money to buy fancy cars or I want to create this level of

00:45:34.780 privilege to where I can buy my child a nice car but now you see you can look at it from any angle

00:45:39.980 whatever you're looking for you will find if you're looking to be angry and envious and compare your

00:45:45.560 life away, you can find that on every corner of the internet. And if you look for a community of

00:45:51.300 people who are intentional, who actually live pretty simply, who are millionaires, who drive

00:45:55.900 Honda Accords, you will find that too. And so it really depends on what you're looking for.

00:46:01.080 And it is a self-fulfilling prophecy either way. What are, say, the three commonalities that you

00:46:07.880 find as you talk to people every day who are financially struggling?

00:46:11.200 the three commonalities with people who are struggling is number one they don't know better

00:46:18.680 so there is a legitimate knowledge gap financial literacy is a huge problem in america we're trying

00:46:24.240 our best we have a high school curriculum that's now been in almost half of high schools in america

00:46:28.340 so there is a problem we need sort of the there's the emergency surgery which is dave on the ramsey

00:46:33.480 show yelling at them to sell the tahoe and there's preventative maintenance which is let's get these

00:46:38.220 kids educated so that they know the dangers of student loans why they don't need a car payment

00:46:42.660 how to save up and pay cash for that car and so there's one piece that's knowledge the other piece

00:46:47.760 is behavioral they can't get out of the cycle because they're in their own way and that takes

00:46:54.620 a different level you can't just google that that takes a i've had it moment is what we call it you

00:47:00.420 need to be so frustrated with yourself with the person in the mirror that you're willing to make

00:47:05.260 sacrificial changes so on the ramsey show it's a good test to say hey are you willing to sell that

00:47:09.940 bike i had this call the other day real guy unwilling to sell his motorcycle so that he

00:47:15.980 could get married and buy a house they've been living together for eight years and he goes well

00:47:21.760 my my uh fiance i don't even know what he calls her doesn't want me to sell the bike either she

00:47:27.440 loves it too okay that's fine but you just told me that you have this goal of buying a house and

00:47:33.100 you won't get married until you're out of debt. And I'm showing you a path to sell the bike,

00:47:37.420 get out of debt so much faster so that you can have this life on the other side.

00:47:41.120 And so all I needed to show him was your behavior is what's standing in the way,

00:47:45.680 not any external forces. We could solve our problems like that for a lot of people. Some

00:47:51.400 people it's systemic. There's a lot more there. It's going to take years and years. For a lot of

00:47:55.320 people, I could change in one session with one hour. I could totally flip your finances. The

00:48:00.380 problem is, are you willing to live that life? Are you willing to go without? So that's the

00:48:04.600 second piece. There's the knowledge, there's the behavior. And the last piece is just the

00:48:09.220 commitment. And this is that patience, that delayed gratification muscle that I don't need

00:48:14.240 it right now. I can wait to have the thing. And so if you can combine all those things,

00:48:19.280 the commitment, the behavior and the knowledge, you can become debt free and build so much wealth

00:48:24.760 and have this great life on the other side. But most people would rather live in mediocrity for

00:48:29.320 30 to 40 years than sacrifice for two which is what it takes for people to get out of debt

00:48:34.140 following the ramsey plan 18 to 24 months you're completely consumer debt free and most people go

00:48:39.820 yeah that looks hard i'd rather live my hard life for the next 40 years instead yeah so you get to

00:48:45.700 decide and so that's what we try to help people do on the ramsey show is use those three levers

00:48:50.040 to kind of gauge where they're at and in five minutes try to give them hope to take the right

00:48:55.820 next step so that's the task that we have at hand have you ever had someone get really angry at you

00:49:01.820 for telling them something like that like hey it's actually this choice that you're refusing to make

00:49:06.980 that is the impediment oh boy i mean things have gotten very combative one of my most famous calls

00:49:12.520 i would say infamous more than famous is when i told a girl to sell her horse now that wasn't the

00:49:19.040 worst part i then ended it with the horse doesn't even know your name which that was the cruel part

00:49:24.300 i wish i could take back but unfortunately everything we say is on the internet forever

00:49:27.520 but here's what frustrated me she was 130 000 in debt and she worked for the um a rural area of

00:49:36.880 kentucky for the usda making forty thousand dollars and so i know how math works and i went 0.99

00:49:42.500 without any sacrifices she's going to be in debt for decades based on her income that is immovable

00:49:47.820 because she said oh i live in a rural part of kentucky and then i find out the horse is worth

00:49:51.760 twenty two thousand dollars wow it's like a prize winning horse and she could get out of a lot of

00:49:57.100 these debts free up some margin and then get the next one get her head above water and so she said

00:50:02.080 when i said katie and i was very kind i said katie i know this would be difficult but could

00:50:06.840 you sell the horse and she immediately went into no that i've had the horse for 11 years and it

00:50:13.440 knows my soul and then we're up against the radio break so i just had to end it and i said katie

00:50:17.800 the horse doesn't even know your name and then Rachel Cruz the co-host just looked at me like

00:50:22.660 guffawed like no you didn't and so that is the time I got angry because the collar was combative

00:50:29.720 because I realized it was my anger was for her I'm so angry that that she's not going to be able

00:50:35.440 to help herself get out of this debt yeah and so later on we communicated we're friends now it's

00:50:39.620 all good she's still climbing out of the debt but she's doing better she's made progress she did not

00:50:45.020 sell the horse. Yeah. Okay. Well, what you said though is true. I understand that there's truth

00:50:52.380 and love and there are ways that we can say it. However, what you said was true. And I do wonder

00:50:59.060 how much these refusal to make choices, whether it's selling a horse or selling a motorcycle or

00:51:05.680 whatever, is really not even just about, I don't see what you see financially, or I don't think

00:51:11.820 that's a smart choice, but of the emotions and identity and the purpose that sometimes we have

00:51:17.680 wrapped around things or animals or whatever it is. It might be something in your childhood that

00:51:25.560 your dad always wanted a boat. And so you felt like you were making him proud by buying this

00:51:30.580 boat. And if you let go of that, are you disappointing your dad? You guys know there

00:51:34.340 are so many different levels of emotions. I'm going to go to med school because my parents

00:51:37.700 always wanted me to, and I hate it, and also I'm in $400,000 in debt. This is the reality. When you

00:51:43.760 try to live someone else's life and you're running someone else's race, it's exhausting. Or you tie 0.62

00:51:49.080 your identity to stuff, to treasures on earth. And so if this was a church sermon and I was the

00:51:53.420 pastor, I would end it with, what is your horse? What do you need to let go of in order to get

00:51:59.460 something so much greater? What are the treasures on earth you need to lay down to have these

00:52:03.660 treasures in heaven and it sounds like not to over spiritualize it but there is a level of

00:52:08.700 what is this all for these you know if you're lucky 70 80 90 years on earth what is it for

00:52:15.040 is it for hoarding and putting your identity into stuff and cars whatever it is or is it for

00:52:21.620 kingdom impact raising up a family them then carrying that on generationally the character

00:52:28.560 the faith, can you pass that down first before you pass down a single dollar? I think that is

00:52:34.700 far more important. If I leave my kids nothing, but they're amazing people who have faith,

00:52:40.660 I have done the Lord's work. And if I can add some money to that to help them and have

00:52:45.820 generational wealth, that's even better. But what if someone says, George, I need to have this

00:52:53.120 $50,000 wedding. This is one day of my life. And my fiance and I, whatever we have to do,

00:53:01.440 whatever debt we have to get in, it's temporary. It's worth it. It is worth it. Something as

00:53:06.580 important as that. You could see someone's mentality of like, we're going to spend whatever

00:53:10.500 we need to for the wedding. How do you grapple with that if you're talking with someone,

00:53:16.400 maybe not on the show, maybe your friend, if someone's going to take the wisdom that you're

00:53:20.540 about to give them home and talking to people in their life? How would you approach something so

00:53:25.060 sensitive like that? Well, if I can curb my own irritability and move past that and be patient,

00:53:33.500 I can then dig in. I think digging in with questions is always the best way to get to

00:53:37.520 the root of the thing. So why do you need to spend $50,000? Where is this coming from? Well,

00:53:42.360 this is the budget because I want XYZ. Okay. Where is that coming from? Well, my mom really

00:53:47.640 wanted to have 28 more people at the wedding and she wanted this okay now there's someone else's

00:53:52.980 opinion involved and i go well is your mom paying for it because if she wants to invite 50 extra

00:53:57.420 people i think she should be footing the bill that's just one man's opinion and then i go if

00:54:02.460 you had a 20 000 wedding would that make your marriage worse well no okay now we're getting 0.63

00:54:08.500 somewhere so the wedding has no direct impact on the quality of your marriage and the wedding is

00:54:13.640 supposed to be a symbol of you starting this marriage so now I can tie it to something bigger

00:54:18.660 with a better motive to get them to sort of realize on their own like a good teacher would

00:54:23.140 in school when they didn't give you the answer they helped you come to the realization where you

00:54:27.320 went oh you're right this really wasn't about having an awesome wedding because I care it's

00:54:33.240 about what other people will think and my parents reputation is at stake and I just always had it in

00:54:39.440 my head that I was going to have this kind of wedding even though we don't have the money and

00:54:43.180 we're going to be $30,000 in debt. And I found out what your real goal is to own a home. So now

00:54:49.620 I go, so you could have had a down payment, but instead you threw a seven hour party for other

00:54:55.040 people who may or may not care about you that much. And now you go, oh, you're right. When I

00:55:00.000 think about it that way, I could do a $20,000 wedding. We can make that work. And now we go

00:55:04.520 about the logistics of cutting the budget, invite list, whatever it may be. But I think that's the

00:55:09.500 best way to approach someone who is in the justification mode.

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00:56:24.400 A Christian wife is listening to this. She wants to get out of debt. She wants to do the Ramsey 0.93

00:56:31.280 plan. She wants financial peace. Husband is the spender. Whatever is going on there, whatever

00:56:37.280 dynamics, it makes him happy to spend all of this money. What does the wife do in that scenario? 1.00

00:56:45.980 I'll tell you what she doesn't do because this happens more often than not and then that'll 1.00

00:56:49.360 reveal the part that's smarter. The thing that most people do is become combative. They wait

00:56:55.800 until it is bubbled up to the point of resentment and anger and then they unleash it as soon as he

00:57:01.020 walks through the door well now he's on the defense and now he's got to play now it's ping

00:57:06.280 pong now we got to go back and forth until someone wins the game in which case nobody has won the

00:57:10.960 game if this is marriage so instead what to do is share your fears share your doubts share your

00:57:18.140 visions share your hopes and if you do that in a calm way at the right time maybe once the kids

00:57:24.540 are down then you say hey we we got to talk about something or even let them know ahead of time

00:57:29.180 Hey, after the kids go down, I wanted to bring up something or, you know, run something by you.

00:57:34.300 Great.

00:57:34.840 Now we know what's coming up.

00:57:36.280 We have the conversation.

00:57:37.500 We go, hey, listen, I'm kind of scared for our family's finances.

00:57:41.980 Like, I feel like we do pretty well.

00:57:44.520 We have a great income and we have nothing in savings.

00:57:47.960 We don't have much in retirement.

00:57:49.860 We're in all this debt and we're not making any progress.

00:57:53.420 And now the husband is a team, is a teammate.

00:57:56.720 now we can both solve this problem together we're looking forward instead of we're aiming at each

00:58:02.180 other and i think if you do that now you need a somewhat healthy husband on the other side of this

00:58:07.600 who actually cares about your feelings and respects you that is what causes people to

00:58:13.040 actually change and go you know what i'm going to do this i'm willing to make the sacrifices needed

00:58:17.460 but a lot of the times you need that person to have empathy to actually care about your feelings

00:58:23.900 to respect what you're wanting for the future.

00:58:26.680 But I think most people just haven't sat down

00:58:28.580 to create a vision for their future.

00:58:30.600 They're just going through the motions.

00:58:32.640 Life is already crazy.

00:58:34.560 They're thinking about this weekend, not next year.

00:58:37.260 And so I think if you can just sit down

00:58:38.760 and have a little come to Jesus moment,

00:58:40.800 lay out a game plan for,

00:58:42.100 hey, what do we want this next year to look like?

00:58:43.720 Two years.

00:58:44.760 What would it actually take for us to get out of debt?

00:58:47.140 Now we can get into the logistics

00:58:48.300 and he can become like,

00:58:49.920 he can go into problem solver mode,

00:58:51.580 which is usually what husbands want to do

00:58:53.280 when you share anything with them.

00:58:54.540 They're like, well, here's the solution.

00:58:55.660 And you're like, no, I just wanted to vent, man.

00:58:57.660 Well, now you're coming to them with a problem

00:58:59.340 that actually requires a solution.

00:59:01.260 And he's stepping into it as a co-teammate

00:59:04.700 versus, hey, this is about me and my spending.

00:59:07.960 And you don't like the way I live my life.

00:59:09.620 And I work so hard for this family.

00:59:11.640 We hear all the calls.

00:59:13.060 And the best marriages are the ones that realize,

00:59:15.360 you know what, it's not all about me.

00:59:16.840 I married you because I wanted a teammate in this life.

00:59:19.260 I wanted this life to be better, not worse.

00:59:20.980 and therefore let's come up with a game plan.

00:59:24.340 I'm sure you've had those situations too

00:59:26.720 where one spouse, husband or wife is in it

00:59:29.480 and the other one's just not.

00:59:32.580 What do they do in that situation

00:59:34.920 if they're like, I don't know,

00:59:36.060 maybe it's not the most healthy circumstance

00:59:38.040 and they're like, I'm gonna have to save on my own.

00:59:42.420 How do they go about that?

00:59:43.620 Well, there's a lot of times

00:59:44.540 where we don't hand them an every dollar budget

00:59:46.640 or Financial Peace University.

00:59:47.660 We tell them, hey, you need to go to your church,

00:59:50.280 sit down with the pastor. You need to have a third party counselor look at the situation

00:59:55.120 objectively because you guys are just missing each other. And so we need to realign with that

01:00:00.460 third party to go, here's what's actually happening on one side. Here's what's actually

01:00:03.520 happening on the other side. And then you can get to that empathy part, but sometimes you do need a

01:00:09.140 third party to step in. And the worst, worst case scenario is we see marriages fall apart

01:00:14.700 because the person is unwilling. Basically, they're opting out of the marriage by deciding,

01:00:19.320 I don't actually want to do life with you I don't actually care about any of this

01:00:22.820 and at that point there's not much we can do we would never advise someone

01:00:26.460 to straight up go get divorced on the show unless there's very clear

01:00:30.700 like there is physical abuse and they're unsafe and we say you need to get out

01:00:34.360 of that house today and go stay with family but in most cases we go this is

01:00:38.660 a decision you need to make I can tell you're resentful I can tell

01:00:41.940 you're angry I don't know what the future of this

01:00:44.120 marriage is but if there's any hope here's what to do that's the best thing

01:00:47.920 we can do in seven minutes on a radio call. Yeah. And that's part of what I love about

01:00:52.700 what y'all do is that you'll see how everything is inextricably intertwined. It's not just about

01:00:58.900 finances. It's not just about penny pinching and saving money. It's about marriage. It's about

01:01:03.520 relationships. It's about your life. There's also a happiness aspect and there's certainly

01:01:07.920 a faithfulness to God aspect too. And I think that's what a lot of people are missing. If they

01:01:12.960 go to your standard financial advisor, you guys really look at the whole person and care about

01:01:18.960 the things that God cares about too. And I do love, you know, when, when someone of faith calls

01:01:23.320 in, it helps because now there's a, there's a context, there's an underpinning here. And when

01:01:28.020 someone doesn't have that underpinning, well, now they're just, I'm, they're sort of just flailing

01:01:32.660 and I don't know how to help them because not because I disagree with their choices, which may

01:01:37.760 be true, but I can't get them to the next step until they have this mindset that it is bigger

01:01:45.540 than them. And that's what I love about having that underpinning of faith. You realize I am a

01:01:49.920 steward. I am managing this for someone else. Here is the context of a healthy marriage. Now we have

01:01:55.620 sort of a guide. And when you don't have that, it's all just worldly, cultural, well, I just want

01:02:00.100 to do what I'm going to do. In which case, it's much harder to give you the right next step and

01:02:04.360 be convinced you're going to do it yeah okay let's end on this biggest myth about finances

01:02:11.480 and your response to it the biggest myth and finances that i've been seeing lately

01:02:16.520 is that some people are just destined to make it to destined to have money they're a math person

01:02:24.160 and then the other people go well i'm not a math person i'm not good with money

01:02:28.120 well not being good with money is not a personality trait that's an excuse and so

01:02:34.040 the people that make it versus the people that don't decide, I may not be good with money today,

01:02:38.720 but I can get better. And it's just like someone coming to faith. The first day you're a new

01:02:44.000 believer, you're not like great at it. You know what I mean? Like you don't have the spiritual

01:02:47.780 maturity and the same goes with finances. You build up that financial maturity. The first time

01:02:53.360 you do a budget, it is a nightmare. The second month you do it, it's a little better. By the

01:02:58.300 third month, you kind of get your training wheels off and go, okay, I got this. I know how to ride

01:03:02.780 the bike now I understand where my money's going I understand how to get control of it how to put

01:03:07.620 it away in savings how to automate it and so know that wherever you are today doesn't have to be

01:03:12.320 where you end up but you can't just give up and go woe is me I'm not good with money hopefully

01:03:18.380 a white knight will come along and save me and I you know I'll marry rich that's the one I hear a

01:03:23.860 lot and I go I wish you the best I've rarely seen that go well for someone whose singular goal is

01:03:29.260 to marry rich. Because even if you get the money, you'll have a miserable life. And so you need to

01:03:34.380 be well-rounded. And part of that is the faith underpinning. Part of it is realizing what your

01:03:39.220 values are, what your goals are, what your motives are. And if you can get healthy in all of that and

01:03:43.820 get really clear, everything else will just wash away. You will stay laser focused on what you are

01:03:48.980 here to do. You're convicting me, George, because you see, I'm not a math person. I'm not an expert

01:03:54.540 in finances. My husband is great at all of that. And he handles all of that. And I'm very, very

01:03:58.860 thankful. But are you telling me, even though my husband is so good at managing all of that,

01:04:04.920 that I also need to understand it and be involved? Is that what you're telling me?

01:04:11.200 Yes. And it doesn't need to be you, like you need to set up your own spreadsheet. No. But you guys

01:04:17.840 both need to be on the same page. And I know you want on the same page values wise, but you may not

01:04:22.460 know like what's in the retirement accounts. Like how is this due? I don't even have the login to

01:04:26.820 the bank. And so my wife and I, here's what I did. This is the most loving romantic thing I've done

01:04:31.160 in a while. I created a legacy guide. And it was a, hey, if something were to happen to me, God

01:04:36.840 forbid, here is every account. Here's every person you need to contact. Here's the balances. Here's

01:04:43.220 the policy number for their term life insurance. Here's the face value. And I helped her understand

01:04:48.680 where everything's going. Now, once in a while she'll go, hey, what's in savings? And I go,

01:04:52.720 you can check the app and she goes oh okay cool so usually it's not that they want to be so

01:04:58.160 intricately involved but to also be in the dark is dangerous yeah so as long as you guys are

01:05:04.440 hitting your goals that you've set as a family you know what's going on in general you don't

01:05:08.700 need to be checking retirement accounts every day right that's not what i'm saying but too many

01:05:12.960 people go well i think he's got it yeah and sadly what happens is financial infidelity and sometimes

01:05:19.240 it's not malicious it's not like cheating it's just a you guys sort of separate and mentally

01:05:24.880 he's over here going well i'm carrying all the mental load i didn't think you cared and now you

01:05:29.540 find out he's in credit card debt and didn't want to tell you because he didn't want to bother you

01:05:33.560 with it and so that's like the lightest version and then the heaviest version is secret debts and

01:05:39.020 pulling the credit reports and finding out there's a gambling addiction and so it's not to say that's

01:05:44.200 what it always leads to but the more transparent the more accountable the more you bring it all

01:05:49.120 into the light the better your marriage is going to be and the more wealth you will create it's

01:05:53.900 like that nate bergazi but have you seen it where he talks about how his wife handles all the

01:05:59.160 finances and she's like and he's like if she dies i'm gonna have to call her mom and be like has she

01:06:05.460 ever mentioned a bank to you like you're saying that's you're saying that's not good a husband

01:06:11.760 unhealthy it's hilarious nate i love his his bits yeah uh but there is a level of the other part of

01:06:18.560 that no one talks about is the other spouse wants you to be involved, not in a way where you're

01:06:22.820 like meddling, but in a way where you're sharing some of the mental load, you're sharing some of

01:06:27.420 the vision and the goals. That's what makes a rich marriage, not just me trying to pay off

01:06:31.880 the mortgage by myself. It's my wife and I sharing in the wins, sharing in the struggles

01:06:36.660 so that when we get there, it's so much richer. Yeah. Amen. Well, thank you so much. Thank you

01:06:43.540 for sharing all of this wisdom. I really appreciate it. Everyone needs to follow you,

01:06:47.360 your podcast, all the good resources that you put out. Thank you so much, George.

01:06:51.180 Thank you. It's been fun.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 31, 2026

Ep 1378 ｜ Does the Dave Ramsey Method Work for Today’s Economy？｜ George Kamel

Episode Stats

Transcript

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 31, 2026

Ep 1378 ｜ Does the Dave Ramsey Method Work for Today’s Economy？ ｜ George Kamel

Episode Stats

Transcript

Ep 1378 ｜ Does the Dave Ramsey Method Work for Today’s Economy？｜ George Kamel