Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1398 ｜ Heresy？ Alisa Childers Addresses Her “Forgiveness” Controversy

00:00:00.000 There is a therapeutic version of forgiveness that actually came into the church through the

00:00:05.600 self-help movement. What it essentially teaches is that forgiveness is largely just like a solo

00:00:11.980 act that you do in your own mind and in your own heart with the purpose of giving yourself a kind

00:00:17.800 of emotional release from the pain that you have being sinned against by another person. That's

00:00:23.020 something that you just have to do really hard work inside of yourself to forgive them. Sometimes

00:00:27.340 I think we mistake some of the other commands in the Bible, like pray for those who persecute

00:00:32.840 you, bless those who curse you, love your enemies. Those are things that are good and we need to be

00:00:37.300 doing all the time. But sometimes I think they get conflated with what forgiveness actually is.

00:00:42.080 hey y'all welcome to relatable happy monday hope everyone had a wonderful weekend that your week

00:00:59.100 is off to a great start okay y'all i am 34 weeks pregnant 34 weeks pregnant as of yesterday which

00:01:09.740 is crazy. Now for me, I know that a lot of y'all are thinking, oh my gosh, you're so close. You're

00:01:14.860 in the home stretch. Well, actually for me, I am probably still seven weeks away from giving birth.

00:01:23.140 It's crazy that you can have that range from like four weeks from now or seven weeks from now,

00:01:28.160 obviously God can do whatever he wants to. And I might deliver at any point, I guess in the next

00:01:34.360 month and a half or so, but I learned it took me until this pregnancy to learn that if you have

00:01:40.820 gone past your estimated due date and previous pregnancies, you are more likely to go past your

00:01:46.960 estimated due date in your subsequent pregnancies. I guess I just thought it was a coincidence. I

00:01:52.660 probably thought, yeah, this is how my body works. My first came at 40 weeks, five days, but that was

00:01:59.100 an induction that my doctor just was like, we should just do this. There was no medical reason

00:02:04.000 for it whatsoever. Baby and I were totally fine. That didn't work because my body wasn't ready. So

00:02:09.380 that ended in a C-section. Very thankful for a healthy baby, but that is not how the birth

00:02:14.140 should have gone. That's not what should have happened. She probably would have cooked in there

00:02:18.100 for, I don't know, another week or so. So she probably would have come at like 42 weeks. And 1.00

00:02:23.820 then my second, I did go into spontaneous labor, but that was at gosh, 41 and two or 41 and one,

00:02:31.440 I think. Um, and then that sadly also ended in a C-section, but it was medically necessary.

00:02:36.720 And then the third baby was our V-back baby and, um, did not go into spontaneous labor. I don't

00:02:43.000 have to go into all of the details. I didn't get like a Pitocin induction or anything like that,

00:02:47.580 but we did end up after getting some, some help, a Foley bulb. I did go into labor later and she

00:02:56.720 came at 41 and five. And so I just have no idea what's going to happen with this birth. It could

00:03:03.280 go all the way to 42 weeks, which I am like mentally and spiritually preparing for. I'm

00:03:08.640 telling myself that this pregnancy will last that long. And if we are pleasantly surprised that I'm

00:03:14.640 only pregnant for 39 weeks, then that is, that will be, that will be wonderful. But I'm hunkering

00:03:20.180 down. And I'm telling myself that I still have like seven plus weeks left. That's just how like

00:03:27.580 your body, everyone's different. Every woman is different. And anyone who tells you that you have 1.00

00:03:32.440 to give birth at 39 weeks for no medical reason, it's just not true. So we're being patient,

00:03:37.720 enjoying these last few weeks. It is very hot where I am. That makes third trimester pregnancy

00:03:44.260 much more difficult. I'm in a heat dome right now. And you know what? In the third trimester

00:03:49.140 of my last pregnancy. We were also in a heat dome. I don't know what's up with that, but it does make

00:03:53.840 the patients a little bit harder, but we're super excited. We have not revealed the gender yet. A

00:03:58.580 lot of you have guessed. I think it's probably 60, 40. It seems like 60% of you think that we're

00:04:04.000 having a boy, our first boy. And then the rest of you think that we're having another girl. I don't

00:04:09.620 know. We'll tell you, we'll tell you after the baby is born, but we're excited. We are, whether

00:04:14.940 it is in a few weeks or whether it's in seven weeks, we are indeed in the home stretch and I'm

00:04:20.380 feeling pretty good considering kind of tired. I've got that pregnancy insomnia that wakes me up

00:04:25.500 at like 3am, but overall I'm actually feeling really good for my fourth pregnancy. Praise the

00:04:31.060 Lord. Praise the Lord for that. And if you're doing some calculations right now and you haven't

00:04:35.400 done the calculation yet, you're like, hang on, you are 34 weeks. Share the arrows is in three

00:04:40.480 weeks. You're telling me that you're going to be 37 weeks when you do share the arrows. Yes. And

00:04:45.660 you know what? Because God is sovereign, God's eternal plan of redemption is going off without

00:04:50.480 a hitch. He knew, he knew when this baby, um, started growing in my belly, exactly when the

00:04:58.080 baby would be born, when share the arrows would be, I guess it's a possibility that I could give

00:05:02.680 birth at or before share the arrows, but because my babies like to stay in a little bit longer,

00:05:08.580 that is what gives us the confidence to be able to, uh, go to share the arrows and host share

00:05:14.020 the arrows. And I'm not worried about that at all. It would be so outside of the norm for me to

00:05:19.140 go into labor early. A lot of you have been worried about that. Okay. I bought these tickets.

00:05:23.660 You've booked your travel. You're, you're going to come to share the arrows. And you're like,

00:05:27.860 what if Allie is not there because she is giving birth? I highly doubt that that is going to

00:05:33.100 happen. It would be a fun story though, if that's what occurred at share the arrows,

00:05:36.820 um share the airs this year is brought to you by our friends at adele natural cosmetics and i'm so

00:05:41.860 excited about it yes i will be large and in charge i will be waddling on stage i've joked with my

00:05:47.480 team that they should just put like a lazy susan in the middle of the stage and i can just like

00:05:52.120 spin around sitting on a chair and talk to you guys since the stage is in the middle but i'll

00:05:58.520 be fine and you know what the lord is going to sustain me and that's like my last big hoorah

00:06:03.500 before the baby comes and I can like just be full on in nesting mode. And I'm so excited

00:06:08.220 to spend one of the days of my last few weeks of pregnancy with some of my favorite people in the

00:06:13.900 world. That of course is you. I love my audience so much. If you're new to this audience and you

00:06:18.960 want to meet like-minded Christian women, then you need to come to share the arrows.

00:06:23.340 If you want to make lifelong friendships, don't be worried about coming by yourself. 0.96

00:06:27.340 You can totally come by yourself. You're not going to feel awkward. You're not going to be

00:06:31.220 alone. I promise whoever you sit by is going to invite you to lunch. She's going to offer to hold

00:06:36.400 your baby. She's going to offer to pray with you. She's going to worship next to you. Anyone who has

00:06:41.360 met my audience, they are salt of the earth women who just want to glorify God in every area of 1.00

00:06:47.420 their lives. I am truly so blessed by the Lord with the women in my audience. And that's why

00:06:53.300 I just love share the arrows. I can't wait to worship with you, with Shane and Shane. I've

00:06:58.020 been trying to come up with a set list. Like it's a little vintage y'all. And by vintage,

00:07:02.620 I mean like nineties, early two thousands, which is going to be super fun. We've got Rosaria

00:07:07.480 Butterfield. We've got Alisa Childers. We've got Natasha Crane. We've got Audrey Brogy,

00:07:12.940 Grayson on Castleberry, Costi hen. Um, it's going to be so good. Y'all share the arrows.com. You

00:07:20.300 can use my code Allie 20. You'll get 20% off, bring your small group, bring your friends,

00:07:24.300 go ahead, make those last minute travel plans and join us there. And as you already heard me say,

00:07:31.100 I just want to remind you as we do every Monday, God's eternal plan of redemption is going off

00:07:36.460 without a hitch. No matter what's going on in your life, no matter what's going on in the world,

00:07:40.620 no matter what they say about AI destroying the universe, no matter what is going on with

00:07:46.640 predictions for the midterms, no matter even what is going on with the tragedies around the world

00:07:53.040 today, we know that nothing hinders the will of God, that his eternal plan of redemption,

00:07:59.220 his seeking and saving of the lost, the advancement of his kingdom, the going out of his gospel,

00:08:05.500 the seeking and saving his lost sheep, all of that is happening unhindered on a second by second

00:08:13.200 basis by a God who cannot be interrupted or deterred. Like that is the God we serve.

00:08:19.580 And when I think about like the problem of evil, that's a big philosophical and theological

00:08:24.840 subject that is discussed a lot. 0.99

00:08:27.580 You know, the amazing thing about Christianity, atheists and agnostics understandably so think 0.69

00:08:33.260 that that question about the problem of evil can be the thing that like stumps a Christian

00:08:37.880 and completely dismantles the idea of this all good, all knowing, all powerful God.

00:08:44.160 How can an all good, all powerful, all knowing God allow all of this suffering?

00:08:47.640 The incredible thing about Christianity is that it doesn't try to hide that.

00:08:52.400 The Bible is all about suffering.

00:08:54.840 The Bible is all about God doing things that man does not understand and that don't seem

00:09:01.180 right to us or don't always seem good to us, but it's about this eternal grand plan of

00:09:07.520 redemption that even in all of these confusing things, these chaotic moments, these tragic

00:09:12.440 and unjust times is still going off without a hitch.

00:09:15.900 the answer to me for the problem of evil is not that, well, maybe God is not all powerful. And so

00:09:22.580 he just has to allow this stuff to happen, but that he allows terrible things to happen for

00:09:28.180 reasons that we don't understand and that he's not doing nothing. He's not doing nothing, that

00:09:33.700 all of it is working together for the good of those who love him and are called according to

00:09:38.640 his purpose. And that one day he is going to avenge his people. One day he's going to do

00:09:43.320 something about evil, that his wrath right now is actively kindling. So all of the injustice and the

00:09:49.620 true oppression, the persecution, the abuse, the exploitation that you see throughout the world,

00:09:54.620 God is not doing nothing about it. He just doesn't exist on our timeline. He's not constrained by

00:10:00.040 time and space. He doesn't have to respond the way that we think he should respond in the moment,

00:10:04.480 but he will respond. He will respond. That is the answer to the problem of evil existing with an

00:10:11.340 all good, all powerful, all knowing God. That God is not ignoring it. He's not doing nothing about

00:10:18.460 it. He's going to do something about it. And we want to be on the right side of things when he

00:10:22.620 does. And that is the good news that by grace through faith in Christ, you can be on the right

00:10:28.000 side of things. You can be reconciled to this perfect and holy God by the blood of Jesus,

00:10:32.300 by grace through faith. So that's the good news. And you know what? That's the best news ever,

00:10:37.600 Even in the midst of darkness, even in the midst of injustice, God's eternal plan of

00:10:42.480 redemption is going off without a hitch.

00:10:44.680 And the good news of the gospel is always reason enough to rejoice.

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00:12:15.460 In just a few minutes, we'll be talking to one of our Share the Arrows speakers,

00:12:20.520 and that is Elisa Childers.

00:12:22.120 She's the only speaker that has been to Share the Arrows all three years.

00:12:25.860 And, uh, that is because she's not only a dynamic, uh, a dynamic speaker, but she is

00:12:31.560 also such a solid teacher.

00:12:33.080 And I know that she takes the word of God seriously, that she has a firm grasp on the

00:12:38.520 gospel and that she is going to be able to tell you the truth in a way that is both charming

00:12:45.120 and enduring.

00:12:46.060 It's, it's in a way that it's really going to stick.

00:12:49.480 And you don't even realize that you've just been given a bunch of tough love because of

00:12:53.820 how kindly yet how powerfully she says it. So I was so surprised when I started getting messages

00:13:00.440 from some of you saying, have you heard what Elisa Childers is saying on this podcast? Have

00:13:06.400 you heard about what she's saying about forgiveness? This is not only unbiblical,

00:13:10.460 this is anti-gospel. And I'm like, Elisa Childers, Elisa Childers being anti-gospel,

00:13:15.720 unbiblical. I haven't seen it. I've never seen it. And now, but I also understand, okay,

00:13:20.820 I've definitely said things that maybe I could have been more careful about saying that people

00:13:24.920 have accused me of believing something that is false, or maybe I truly did need to be corrected

00:13:29.580 on something. We're fallible human beings. And so I went to this clip and this clip shows Elisa's

00:13:36.160 will play in just a second saying something about forgiveness that a lot of people found very

00:13:41.660 controversial. Here it is. It's been so hard for me in the last year, just thinking about like,

00:13:46.460 How can I ever forgive someone like Candace Owens?

00:13:49.780 The Bible says to forgive as Christ forgave, but Christ doesn't forgive everyone.

00:13:53.180 He forgives those who repent and turn and trust in him by faith.

00:13:56.000 But forgiveness is something that you can't actually offer somebody if they haven't repented.

00:14:01.520 Okay, so many of you have come to me about this saying, well, this is just not true.

00:14:06.560 You are supposed to forgive no matter what.

00:14:10.360 And I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not going to respond to that yet.

00:14:14.660 I'm going to allow Elisa to do that in, um, in just a second, but this is actually a topic that

00:14:20.720 we've talked about before. Like what does biblical forgiveness look like? The first verse about

00:14:26.140 forgiveness that comes to mind for me is from Ephesians 432, be kind to one another, tender

00:14:32.700 hearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you. I mean, that alone is a very big

00:14:40.240 task. Because when we think about a perfect and holy God who had every reason to give us wrath,

00:14:45.740 every reason and every justification to punish us, choosing to forgive us, to give us his mercy

00:14:52.580 and grace, that's really big. If I'm supposed to treat my friends that way, if I'm supposed to

00:14:57.460 treat my fellow members of the body of Christ that way, that is a really big responsibility.

00:15:03.560 That's a really big ask that I'm going to have to tap into the Holy Spirit, completely rely on the

00:15:08.160 Holy Spirit to do. But when you think about what precedes God's forgiveness, it's not continuing

00:15:14.160 to run from him and rebel from him. It is that by grace through faith exchange. It is that repentance,

00:15:21.320 that coming to our knees and asking for God's forgiveness. Now, even that repentance, even that

00:15:26.860 turning to God, falling to our knees and asking for his grace, that is powered by the Holy Spirit.

00:15:34.120 That is powered by grace. So even that we cannot take credit for. I can't say that I had some kind

00:15:39.520 of contribution or participation in my salvation because even the asking of forgiveness comes from

00:15:45.540 the power and the grace of God. But God is not willy-nilly doing anything, but willy-nilly

00:15:52.840 giving forgiveness to anyone and everyone. This is not a blanket kind of forgiveness. There is

00:15:58.380 an exchange and there is an action and a reaction in a way, if I can use human terms, that might not

00:16:05.760 be exactly correct when we're talking about the exchange that's given to us by God. But there is

00:16:11.020 something like an action and a reaction going on there when we're talking about God's forgiveness

00:16:17.480 to us. And Elisa is here. She is going to explain this very well. But I also just want to say,

00:16:24.640 before I allow her to much more eloquently and theologically explain her reasoning behind what

00:16:29.540 she was saying, I just kind of want to give a note about social media. And I understand that

00:16:35.760 I have been in like the commentary space for a long time. And so because of that, you develop

00:16:41.560 thicker skin. I'm not saying I have completely impenetrable skin. I definitely get offended

00:16:46.160 or I get sad about things or things can hurt my feelings. And so I'm not trying to say I'm

00:16:51.900 unconditionally tough, but you do over time, putting yourself out there, putting your opinions

00:16:57.280 forward, trying your best to bring biblical clarity as a fallible human. You get a lot,

00:17:02.980 you get a lot of pushback. You get a lot of criticism, a lot of critiques. Some of it is

00:17:06.980 valid and you need to learn from, you need to consider the source. You need to consider the

00:17:10.780 substance and then you can learn from it. And then others is just not like they're taking you

00:17:15.820 out of context. They're always looking for a reason to attack you or nitpick you or something

00:17:20.140 like that, or they're just plain wrong in their criticism, according to scripture. And so you

00:17:26.420 really have to weigh that, but you become pretty good at navigating it and you get some thick skin

00:17:32.760 and you also realize, okay, I don't like it when people misinterpret me. I don't like it when people

00:17:38.740 take me out of context. You know, I don't like it when people don't consider everything that I've

00:17:44.120 said and just look at one particular thing and write me off because I think that's silly and

00:17:49.400 emotional. And I, so I don't want to do that to other people. So how I approach social media,

00:17:55.440 just as someone who has been in this space for a long time, I understand is probably different

00:17:59.600 than just your average social media participant. And so I just want to encourage you that when

00:18:08.440 you see someone that you otherwise trust and that you know is solid biblically, not to rush

00:18:15.100 to judgment and condemnation. But to pause for a second, this is why I have to do this all the

00:18:19.880 time, by the way, because there's so many things that people say that I disagree with. Sometimes

00:18:24.060 they're my friends. Sometimes they're people I really trust. And I listen to what they say and

00:18:28.300 I'm like, oh, that doesn't sound right. Or that doesn't sit right with me. Or I don't really like

00:18:31.720 that. And you know what I don't do? I don't immediately comment publicly or leave like a

00:18:37.120 passive regret, aggressive remark somewhere, or immediately start warning people away from them,

00:18:41.740 unless it is just blatant, anti-gospel, totally unbiblical truth. But even then, if I know the

00:18:46.540 person, I'm going to reach out to them and I'm going to say, what's going on here? I've been a

00:18:50.400 part of those conversations, by the way, with truly godly biblical women in the online space,

00:18:55.440 like in text being like, hey, what did you mean by this? Because I'm not so sure that's actually

00:18:59.100 biblical. And like godly women and godly friendships are going to be able to withstand

00:19:05.120 that because that is iron sharpening iron. I think it's totally fine to provide healthy and good,

00:19:10.860 and respectful feedback to someone. You don't have to agree every single time, but I do think

00:19:18.200 that there can be more benefit of the doubt given when you know that person's track record is one

00:19:23.580 of integrity and one of being biblically solid. And we're just so incredibly reactive on social

00:19:30.220 media. And I understand not everyone goes by that rule, but when I see my friends say something that

00:19:35.300 I'm not so sure about, or maybe I just like, I don't know, I'm going to check the context. I'm

00:19:38.880 going to check with them. Or if I don't have time to do that, you know what I do? I ignore it.

00:19:42.760 I ignore it. And I'm like, okay, they said that one thing. I'm not talking about this with Elisa

00:19:46.740 because as you'll hear, she has a really good explanation for what she's talking about.

00:19:50.300 But just in general, like sometimes my friends will say something and I'm like, yeah, I totally

00:19:55.580 don't agree with that. And you know what? I find myself doing that a lot with my very good Catholic

00:20:00.020 friends, my very good Catholic friends who I know are so solid on so many things. And we agree on

00:20:05.280 so many things and so many important things. They're going to say things about Catholicism.

00:20:10.420 They're going to say things about Mary. They're going to say things about purgatory, praying to 0.96

00:20:13.400 the saints that I do not agree with. And we've had backs and back and forths about this, both

00:20:18.200 on the podcast and privately. But I'm just not, if they're my friend, like I'm just not going to

00:20:24.020 call them out publicly. I'm just not going to. I just think that there is a little bit more respect

00:20:28.980 that we can pay each other. And, uh, Elisa is as solid as it gets as solid as it gets when it comes

00:20:35.740 to apologetics and theology. And so I think your first thought should be, even if you didn't think

00:20:40.760 that you initially agreed to say, Hmm, I want to hear more. I want to hear more because I know

00:20:46.440 this woman studies the word of God and takes it seriously. And so I want to understand more where

00:20:51.600 she's coming from. Now, maybe you'll listen to this conversation and you'll still be like, Nope,

00:20:55.420 I just don't see it that way. I don't think that that is correct. That's fine. But I think that

00:21:02.140 if you listen to her, you will understand better biblically where she's coming from and that what

00:21:07.360 she's talking about is actually, according to scripture, really good news. All right. I'll

00:21:13.620 read you one sponsor and then we'll get into that conversation with my good friend, Elisa Childers.

00:21:17.580 If you want your kids and your teens, especially to know what's going on in the world, but you

00:21:21.660 don't want them scrolling through Instagram to figure it out, certainly not TikTok or reading

00:21:26.260 the news outlets online, which so often are dishonest, sensationalist, they're not coming

00:21:31.300 from a biblical worldview, then you need to sign up for Worldwatch. This is a bite-sized,

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00:22:01.500 worldwatch.news slash Allie, use code Allie to start your 30 day free trial, worldwatch.news

00:22:07.320 slash Allie, code Allie. Alisa, thanks so much for joining us. All right. We're going to talk

00:22:17.780 about some, I don't know, blowback hot water that you got into. You were talking about Candace

00:22:24.680 Owens. You're talking about forgiveness. And in a social media clip, you said, or I saw it on

00:22:30.660 Instagram saying, look, you don't have to forgive someone who has not repented. And that seems to

00:22:37.200 have caused some confusion among people of what that means, where is that supported in scripture

00:22:43.680 and all of that. So I'll just kind of give you the floor. What is meant by that?

00:22:48.740 Right. Well, the context of those comments where they came in was really from Alex on the Culture

00:22:55.960 Apothecary podcast asking me about forgiveness because I've done some content on that. And it's,

00:23:00.660 you know, it's hard to capture a fully comprehensive thought just in a short reel,

00:23:05.980 especially when you don't have control over the editing. So I appreciate the opportunity to kind

00:23:10.320 to flesh this out a little bit. I want to be really clear that I think what people heard me

00:23:15.820 saying was that, oh, you have an excuse as a Christian to not forgive someone, or you can

00:23:20.100 harbor unforgiveness, or you can hold a grudge against somebody. And of course, that is not at

00:23:24.560 all what I'm saying. The Bible is really clear that it commands us to forgive 70 times 7. This

00:23:30.420 is something that's all throughout Scripture, and it's very important that we as Christians

00:23:34.860 practice forgiveness. And so I think where the confusion comes in, though, is that there is a

00:23:41.260 therapeutic version of forgiveness that actually came into the church through the self-help

00:23:46.300 movement. And what it essentially teaches is that forgiveness is largely just like a solo act that

00:23:53.460 you do in your own mind and in your own heart with the purpose of giving yourself a kind of

00:23:58.960 emotional release or some sort of relief from the pain that you have being sinned against by

00:24:05.200 another person. And so that's something that you just have to do really hard work inside of

00:24:09.260 yourself to forgive them. And that's what's being taught as forgiveness. But really, the Bible

00:24:13.380 frames forgiveness a lot differently. In fact, I just want to read from Luke 17. This is where

00:24:18.480 Jesus is talking about forgiveness. And he says, pay attention to yourselves. If your brother sins,

00:24:24.660 rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in the day and

00:24:30.380 turns to you seven times saying, I repent, you must forgive him. And so the argument is essentially

00:24:35.460 that forgiveness is a very specific solution to a very specific problem. When somebody sins against

00:24:41.660 you, it's you offering them a pardon from the moral debt that's created when they repent. And

00:24:48.040 so that's something that the Bible commands us to do. And so I think people misunderstood me

00:24:53.940 saying that it's okay to not forgive and we can harbor forgiveness, unforgiveness. And sometimes

00:24:59.520 I think we mistake some of the other commands in the Bible, like pray for those who persecute you,

00:25:05.120 bless those who curse you, love your enemies. Those are things that are good and we need to

00:25:10.240 be doing all the time, but sometimes I think they get conflated with what forgiveness actually is.

00:25:15.600 And so the argument really is that we are commanded to forgive as a interrelational

00:25:21.140 thing that involves two people. It's not just a solo act that you do within your own heart.

00:25:27.140 So what does it look like as a solo action in our own heart if someone has not repented? Whether

00:25:34.260 it's someone that we don't really know, but we see them doing something online and we are just

00:25:39.600 so incensed by what they're doing, maybe righteously incensed by what they're doing,

00:25:43.800 or whether it's someone that harmed us and that relationship is not going to be restored for

00:25:49.960 whatever reason, at least right now, what does it look like in our hearts if we cannot have that

00:25:57.660 exchange of forgiveness? Right. And I think that's where all the passages of scripture come in that

00:26:05.580 tell us to treat other people as we would have them treat us, pray for those who persecute you,

00:26:12.900 bless those who curse you, love your enemies. We need to be praying for people who have wronged us.

00:26:17.920 We need to have a heart that is willing to offer forgiveness to them should they repent.

00:26:23.440 So I think there's a general posture of forgiveness.

00:26:26.620 And I think it's interesting, too, when you ask that question, I think Jesus perfectly

00:26:30.620 shows this heart on the cross when he says, Father, forgive them, for they know not what

00:26:35.120 they do.

00:26:36.180 I think this was Jesus asking the Father, you know, bring the gospel to these people,

00:26:40.520 give them the opportunity to repent and trust, because if Jesus wanted to authoritatively

00:26:46.000 declare their sins forgiven. This is why this matters. If he was doing that in that prayer,

00:26:50.960 if he could have done it, he had the authority to forgive sins. He did that in his earthly life.

00:26:57.080 But there was always an interrelational thing that was happening when he did that. So when

00:27:01.060 somebody, when Jesus declared someone's sins forgiven in the gospels, there was at least a

00:27:06.540 turn toward him in faith and faith and repentance are, you know, two sides of the same coin. So you

00:27:11.520 see that, but on the cross, Jesus prays and he says, Father, forgive them. And that is Jesus'

00:27:15.560 this heart posture, I think that we should also have toward people who have wronged us a willingness

00:27:21.080 to forgive. We're not holding onto bitterness. We're not holding grudges. But that's a different

00:27:25.840 thing than actually biblical forgiveness. And I'll tell you why I think this matters so much.

00:27:31.020 A lot of people have encountered really horrific abuses. And then often what happens

00:27:36.440 is people will incorrectly, or what I believe is an unbiblical version of forgiveness,

00:27:41.880 they'll be taught that, and that puts all of the burden and the pressure on the person who's been

00:27:46.320 abused to, you know, you have to be the one to forgive them, and then they start to measure

00:27:50.680 their forgiveness based on their feelings. Well, do I feel like I'm released from this person? Do I

00:27:54.580 feel good feelings toward this person? And that determines whether or not they believe they have

00:27:59.220 forgiven this person. But in reality, the Bible gives very specific instructions about how to go

00:28:05.060 about that, pray for that person, have a heart that's willing to forgive. I mean, that takes a

00:28:08.940 lot of work sometimes when we've been hurt. But the actual act of forgiveness is not even available

00:28:14.440 if there's not that interpersonal relationship of the person coming in repentance.

00:28:20.660 I think another good example of that that comes to mind is Stephen. As he's being stoned to death,

00:28:26.580 he says, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Lord, do not hold this sin against them. It's a very

00:28:35.340 similar prayer to what jesus prayed but that is not also declaring them all righteous that's not

00:28:42.020 declaring them not responsible for their sin to me it sounds like a hope of repentance a hope of

00:28:49.380 reconciliation between god and these people of course that's what he spent his dying breath doing

00:28:53.620 is preaching the gospel to them and i think if people took that to the logical conclusion because

00:29:00.540 i saw people in the comments posting the two passages that we talked about as a way to refute

00:29:04.800 you. But if they took that to their logical conclusion, what they're arguing is that these

00:29:10.100 two passages say that we have to, you know, have that exchange of forgiveness without any repentance

00:29:16.480 or any restoration or any movement toward them at all. Well, is that also, I mean, we're talking

00:29:24.500 about salvific kind of forgiveness in these two passages. We know that that's not how the

00:29:30.420 forgiveness of the Lord works is that we don't just get to say, well, I didn't know what I was

00:29:35.840 doing. And someone said, don't hold that sin against me. And then I was saved. And then I

00:29:40.200 was reconciled to God. Yes, it's by grace through faith, but that grace leads us to a repentance

00:29:46.020 that the Lord uses through faith for reconciliation and for our restoration. So there's just some,

00:29:54.020 like, it's kind of a category error, I think, and some confusion there about like what those

00:29:58.520 passages actually mean. And again, I think it's so important that you're not saying to harbor

00:30:03.280 bitterness because that is also against what Christians are called to do, do away with all

00:30:09.840 bitterness and wrath and anger, along with all malice, forgiving one another as God in Christ

00:30:14.360 forgave you. And so we are called to that, but you're talking about that kind of interpersonal

00:30:19.940 exchange, alleviation of debts that forgiveness does. And that requires some movement from the

00:30:26.360 other person, right? That's right. And even taking your point a little further, Jesus on the cross,

00:30:33.640 if he was declaring all of those people forgiven of their sins, well, that means that they were

00:30:39.900 reconciled to God and they're in heaven apart from putting faith in Christ, which really is

00:30:45.100 universalism. So we have to be careful because the Bible says for us to forgive as God forgives

00:30:49.500 and God forgives repentant people. So I think sometimes you're right, it's a category error.

00:30:53.940 It's mistaking other things like praying for those who persecute us and blessing those

00:30:59.200 who curse us and all of the things we're supposed to be doing from a posture of the hope of

00:31:04.080 forgiveness, conflating that with what actual forgiveness is.

00:31:07.940 It's not letting anybody off any kind of a hook to hold a grudge or be bitter, but it's

00:31:13.340 just being really careful that we define things the way God does, because you're right, there

00:31:16.860 is a salvific element to this, and it really matters.

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00:32:21.420 slash Allie. You, you call this form of forgiveness of just like, you know, forgive and forget.

00:32:32.000 Like I have to have almost, it's almost like I have to have this emotional warmth toward this

00:32:37.400 person in my heart. And that's supposed to be like how we define forgiveness, which it's not

00:32:43.520 Like you can actually not have bitterness in your heart toward a person and also be

00:32:47.520 righteously angry about the sin they committed, the wrong that they did against you or against

00:32:52.100 another person.

00:32:52.900 And that's why I think how you describe it, like this therapeutic forgiveness, that's

00:32:57.920 really more just about like how you feel.

00:33:00.200 And it just reminds me of so many other forms of deception that have seeped into the church

00:33:04.800 that really come from like the therapy world and come from this kind of self-centered,

00:33:09.940 as you said, self-help world.

00:33:11.900 and we just don't realize it because it sounds so close to being Christian,

00:33:16.180 but isn't defined biblically. And you've talked about, we've talked about before how women are

00:33:21.640 uniquely susceptible to these kind of therapeutic Christian sounding lies within the church.

00:33:28.540 Can you talk a little bit more about that? Why are we more susceptible to that kind of deception?

00:33:33.940 Right. And so that therapeutic model is actually from the book Counterfeit Forgiveness by T.C.

00:33:38.920 can. And I want to be careful, I don't take credit for that phrase, because that's her phrase.

00:33:42.560 But yeah, to your point, I do think there's so much in therapy culture that has influenced women

00:33:49.660 to be more susceptible to certain types of deception. I'm careful to not say women are

00:33:54.680 more deceivable in every way, because men are certainly vulnerable to deception from different

00:33:59.880 angles, of course. But specifically, where I think women are vulnerable is, you know, if you just,

00:34:05.220 it's really common sense. You look around and you see that women tend to be a little bit more 0.99

00:34:10.680 empathetic. We tend to be more in tune with the feelings of individual people, whereas men are

00:34:17.520 more like they would swing out and be more focused on a community. This is why we see

00:34:21.780 when there's some sort of a thing that happens in culture, like a pandemic or something like that, 0.95

00:34:27.560 the women are focused on their children, on their home, getting that all together.

00:34:31.780 And the men might be looking out a little bit more like, how do we protect our community?

00:34:35.980 How do we get everybody together to do whatever we need to do?

00:34:39.840 And this is wonderful.

00:34:41.000 This is a strength for both people. 1.00

00:34:43.360 But I do think that women are more deceivable when it comes to things that have to do with 1.00

00:34:49.720 victimization and being empathetic toward another person, victimhood, that sort of thing, 1.00

00:34:56.260 because we so much more easily, I think in many cases, are able to feel the feelings of other

00:35:02.680 people. And we have to be really careful that that empathy doesn't turn toxic, to quote a great book,

00:35:07.740 but we have to be careful that we're not focusing so much on one individual thing that we can't

00:35:14.440 swing out and see the broader picture. And so I think that there's a reason that the Scripture

00:35:21.340 warns against these false teachers that will worm their way into households and take captive

00:35:27.020 gullible women who are weighted down with all manner of sins. And I think it's not that women 0.98

00:35:33.180 are gullible all the time, but I think that we are more easily manipulatable because we have to be

00:35:39.180 able, when we have a baby, to understand, why is my baby crying? What's wrong with my baby? Is my

00:35:44.520 baby hungry? Is my baby uncomfortable? Is my baby in pain? What's going on with my baby? And I think

00:35:50.560 there's a great strength there that women are going to be more likely to be able to pinpoint

00:35:55.000 what's wrong because of that kind of intuitive, empathetic nature that we have. But if we aren't

00:36:02.400 careful, we can start to let that go to a place where we abandon truth in favor of our feelings

00:36:09.160 and trusting like a gut feeling. That discernment, I think this is one of the great lies, is that

00:36:13.760 discernment is some kind of a gut feeling. The Bible never teaches that. The Bible teaches us

00:36:18.840 to test all things. We are to take an objective standard of truth and test all things against

00:36:24.540 our objective standard of truth, which is the revealed Word of God. And sometimes our intuitions

00:36:29.840 are going to be right, but sometimes they're wrong. And we have to be willing to say,

00:36:34.240 all right, I have this red flag. I have this intuition. Does this line up with reality? Does

00:36:38.960 this line up with Scripture? And then we have to be willing to abandon that belief if it's false.

00:36:43.740 And I think that can be more difficult for women who are that we tend to be more emotionally driven. And honestly, I mean, all the hormonal cycles we go through when we have our menstrual cycles, and then perimenopause, my goodness, I remember when I was pregnant, just having this overwhelming sense of doom that came over me. And I realized that it was my hormones, it wasn't real.

00:37:06.900 So I had to talk to my own self and say, you know, this isn't real, what you're feeling.

00:37:11.280 This is some misfires of whatever hormones are going on in your body right now.

00:37:16.140 But that's why I think it's so important, especially for women, that we learn to align

00:37:20.480 ourselves with objective truth, not just go with what we're feeling inside.

00:37:27.060 Yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:37:28.500 And the comfort is also that we have been given a spirit of power and love and self-control.

00:37:36.320 And then Romans 8 also tells us that we have been given a spirit, not a fear to fall back

00:37:42.380 into slavery, but one that gets to call out Abba Father.

00:37:45.980 And that Holy Spirit is not quenched by rising or falling progesterone.

00:37:52.360 Like that Holy Spirit is not limited by sleeplessness or any of the other symptoms that we might

00:38:00.060 go through, pregnant, postpartum, perimenopause, and all of those things.

00:38:03.800 So even like the very real physical challenges of being a woman and all of these different

00:38:09.860 stages that we go through hormonally, God knew that when he made us, God knew that when

00:38:14.580 he chose you before the foundations of the world, Ephesians one, five, and you were given

00:38:20.760 that same Holy spirit, our bodies, our flesh, our hormones are not more powerful than the

00:38:26.840 Holy spirit.

00:38:27.700 I think that's like, that's very comforting to me.

00:38:30.200 And I think some people might see that as like belittling or dismissive of those things.

00:38:34.860 It's not, I've been through all the postpartum and pregnancy hormones.

00:38:38.400 It's such a comfort to me that I can tell myself that you could tell yourself during

00:38:42.860 pregnancy, like, okay, that doesn't have to be my reality that, that doesn't have, I

00:38:47.620 don't have to like wonder, okay, is my intuition like aligning with the universe?

00:38:52.500 Like, is it some secret message that I'm trying to get and relay?

00:38:57.840 Am I supposed to do something?

00:38:58.800 I don't have to have that anxiety. I actually think that is like super freeing. And again,

00:39:05.020 that's not to pick on women. That's just reality. But the same good news is for us as it is for men 0.99

00:39:12.140 that we don't have to be ruled by our flesh. Like that's part of the great news of the gospel.

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00:40:24.020 extra 10% off your order. 7weekscoffee.com code Allie. That is so good. And I, you know,

00:40:35.620 I will tell you as a perimenopausal woman, I will tell all of the younger ladies that are maybe in

00:40:40.780 your childbearing years, you know, it is, it's hard in every season and progesterone is a gift

00:40:46.600 from God. It is wonderful. And, you know, absolutely do what you need to do to try to

00:40:52.040 help your physical body to be in line with you know the most healthy you that you can be but it

00:40:58.180 really is i totally agree with you ali it is if you practice now even when you're younger before

00:41:04.340 your childbearing years if you practice aligning your mind with what's real and what's true and

00:41:09.880 learning not to ignore your feelings not discounting those things and definitely getting help

00:41:15.280 where you can physically whether that be with supplements or hormones whatever you need but

00:41:20.760 also saying, you know, there's going to be harder phases than this, I'm sure. And there have been

00:41:26.000 harder phases than this. But when we learn to align our minds with truth, that is such a good

00:41:33.200 discipline to practice now, because as you carry through all of the different seasons, you're going

00:41:38.240 to need that. You're going to go back and rely on that. All of the times you opened the Word of God

00:41:43.480 and relied on what God said, that is going to pay off as you get older and kind of get into the

00:41:49.460 perimenopausal phase. It's always something, right? We have all these seasons. But that's why,

00:41:54.860 to your point, we don't have a different category for us because we might have some different things

00:42:00.660 going on physically. And that's really, I feel respected by that. I feel like I'm not being

00:42:06.920 treated like a child. God says, look, I expect these things of you. It may be harder for some

00:42:13.240 people than it is for others, but we all have the Holy Spirit to help us. And we have that

00:42:17.960 eternal perspective of knowing that this life is but a vapor and so we're looking to that eternal

00:42:23.080 destination when god will wipe away all the tears from our eyes and in the meantime great news he

00:42:28.800 uses our suffering for our good and for his glory so it's a win-win-win all the way around

00:42:33.260 amen thank you so much i'm so excited to see you and natasha at share the arrows in just a few

00:42:41.460 weeks it's going to be amazing we've already talked about what y'all are going to discuss and

00:42:45.580 y'all have been meeting, um, and gosh, it's going to be so good talking about deception and false

00:42:51.800 teaching and how we can combat all of that. I can't wait to sit and take notes. Me too. I'm so,

00:42:57.480 so, so excited. Yay. Well, thank you so much, Alisa. I'll see you soon.

00:43:02.880 Yeah. Sounds good. Talk to you later.

00:43:15.580 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 21, 2026

Ep 1398 ｜ Heresy？ Alisa Childers Addresses Her “Forgiveness” Controversy

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