Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1405 ｜ Steven Lawson’s New Book Is Troubling. Here Are My Takeaways

00:00:00.000 Lawson has released a new book. It's called Mercy in the Wilderness, How I Fell in What I

00:00:06.420 Found. He doesn't say, okay, this is how I, a grandfather in my 70s, started flirting with a

00:00:12.700 woman in her 20s who lived in another state. He doesn't talk about that. Like, what was it that

00:00:17.580 led you into that temptation? What decisions did you specifically make to push away accountability

00:00:23.080 and to push away honesty? What rules would you put in place if you could go back? He talks about

00:00:28.640 some of that, but not really specifically. Was it the traveling by yourself? Was it something

00:00:33.320 that you always wanted to do? Was this the first time that something like this happened? You might

00:00:37.220 say, well, that's none of our business. You wrote a book. If it's none of our business,

00:00:41.220 don't write books. Don't write books about the scandal unless you are ready to be open and honest.

00:00:58.640 hey y'all welcome to relatable happy wednesday hope everyone has had a wonderful week so far

00:01:04.580 share the arrows just a couple of days away i got a message from someone saying when's the last day

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00:01:19.660 we're just gonna see what happens then i guess if there are still tickets left you could buy

00:01:24.240 on saturday morning maybe safest bet is to do so on friday but i understand if you're local you're

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00:02:02.160 including from their psalms album y'all it's going to be such an incredible time i just can't wait to

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00:02:13.440 taking my own notes worshiping if you've got a question if you're already attending this weekend

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00:02:26.680 a weekend where God is glorified most of all, that the gospel goes out. There will be women

00:02:31.940 in this audience who don't know the gospel. Most who are coming are Christians. Some have

00:02:37.300 some different beliefs. Some are searching. Some are skeptical. Some might believe that

00:02:41.520 they're Christians, but they don't really understand the gospel. And so will you pray

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00:02:50.000 to be reminded that they are not alone that there are thousands of women sharing their arrows too

00:02:54.940 just pray for this weekend for protection and all of that good stuff too so thankful for share the

00:03:00.640 arrows and that i get to be a part of this 37 weeks pregnant so go to share the arrows.com

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00:03:26.140 so pumped about it. All right, sharethearrows.com. Get your tickets today. Let's get into the rest

00:03:33.160 of today's episode. Today, we are talking about Stephen Lawson. A lot of you in my audience know

00:03:39.280 who Stephen Lawson is. He was a very accomplished, exegetical preacher. He was preaching at a church

00:03:47.600 called Trinity Bible Church in Dallas when, unfortunately, it was revealed that he had been

00:03:52.680 a part of an inappropriate relationship. We covered that at the time. This was two years ago

00:03:58.460 that his ministry came crashing down after it was revealed that he had persisted in some kind of,

00:04:07.260 the nature is still a little bit murky but some kind of extramarital relationship with a woman in

00:04:12.620 her 20s if you don't know who Stephen Lawson is he is in his 70s okay so married for a very long

00:04:20.620 time to the same lovely woman and had children and grandchildren still does of course have children

00:04:27.000 and grandchildren and this really rocked the reformed world I mean he was a huge figure a

00:04:34.000 huge force in the kind of John MacArthur master seminary world, the kind of guy that you would

00:04:40.460 just never see doing something like this. It's sad to say, but sometimes you see a pastor who

00:04:46.980 seems to be driven by fame and attention and you're like, okay, yeah, I'm not maybe that

00:04:53.020 surprised when a pastor like that makes a decision based on his desire for love and attention and all

00:04:58.540 of that. Stephen Lawson so did not seem that way. And I'm not saying that's a fair assessment.

00:05:04.000 judge a book by its cover, that because someone wears a suit and tie and preaches in an expository

00:05:09.380 way and is part of John MacArthur's circle, that they are not vulnerable to temptation. I'm not

00:05:14.340 trying to say that, but just being honest about the human assessment of things, we wouldn't have

00:05:19.400 thought it. Even on the deeper spiritual and theological level, someone who clearly has such

00:05:25.300 a firm grasp on the gospel, on the word of God, and is so careful, it seems like, to understand

00:05:33.200 and also apply it. It just didn't seem like that kind of guy was at risk for what happened,

00:05:40.860 having this inappropriate relationship with a younger woman. So we talked about at the time,

00:05:46.500 we did, I think, a couple different episodes on it, just explaining what happened with his

00:05:52.740 ministry, some of the comments, some of the statements that were put out, and then how we

00:05:57.140 grapple with this when a leader that we admire, that we look up to, falls. What does that say

00:06:04.260 about our faith, about the word of God, about the character of God and why we can still trust him

00:06:10.140 in those moments? And now the reason we are talking about it today is because Lawson has

00:06:14.840 released a new book a couple of years later. It's called Mercy in the Wilderness, How I Fell in

00:06:21.560 what I found. So we're going to look at what the book is, what is inside the book, what's

00:06:26.760 maybe good about it, what's kind of strange about it, and also what the reaction has been

00:06:32.920 in the Reformed world and answer the question of whether a disqualified pastor should write

00:06:40.480 books like this in the first place. So first, we'll back up a little bit and tell you about 0.97

00:06:45.720 who this person is like how he is so credentialed and why this was and still is such a big deal

00:06:52.200 that he made the decision that he made why this has had such a big impact on those of us who

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00:08:26.340 code ally so steve lawson had been in the pastoral ministry for 40 years he joined trinity bible

00:08:38.360 Church in 2018. I visited there several times. I will say on those occasions, while I loved

00:08:45.300 listening to Stephen Lawson preach, one thing that I never, my husband and I never felt that

00:08:51.560 we could fully get on board with was that he was not actually the permanent pastor that he would

00:08:58.680 teach there, but then he would also still kind of travel the world and continue to teach.

00:09:03.300 And I don't know that I can say 100% that is always wrong or that is always unbiblical, always bad, but it did make it feel like the church was a little unmoored.

00:09:13.600 Like there wasn't really a shepherd there that was responsible for the protection and the stewardship of the flock.

00:09:20.780 Like if I just want to hear someone preach, well, I can listen to anyone preach in the world by listening on my podcast app.

00:09:27.280 But like, I'm interested in going to a church where there is a clear shepherd. I'm not saying

00:09:33.380 there was no shepherding happening at Trinity Bible Church. I know people who go there. I know

00:09:38.140 some of the leadership there and they are really, really solid believers and tried to handle this,

00:09:43.480 I think in the best way possible. But there was something about the structure of him just kind

00:09:48.800 of being this performer, presenter there that my husband and I just didn't like that. There's

00:09:56.120 something intuitively that we couldn't get on board with. He also founded an organization called

00:10:02.560 One Passion Ministries. His whole thing was trying to help other pastors preach exegetically,

00:10:08.180 which is really important. That is the kind of preaching that I have benefited so much from that

00:10:13.100 can truly change lives because of the word of God. He goes verse by verse. So when we're talking

00:10:17.580 about expository preaching or exegetical preaching, like that X means you're pulling meaning out of

00:10:23.520 the text not just based on your feelings but based on what the rest of the bible says most

00:10:29.300 importantly based on the context based on the history based on solid theological tradition

00:10:35.720 and you extract meaning based on those things from the text so it's not topical it's not

00:10:41.480 eisegetical like okay i want to talk about this today let's try to find the verses that i think

00:10:45.780 fit into winning a soccer game, Philippians 4.13. It really is a methodical way to preach,

00:10:53.840 and Stephen Lawson was very, very good at that. Think R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, those who

00:11:00.460 might take years and years to bring their church through a book of the Bible because they are so

00:11:05.480 carefully dissecting the text. He was absolutely a master at that. Then September 2024 happened.

00:11:13.340 this was shocking. Trinity Bible Church of Dallas announced that Stephen Lawson had been removed

00:11:19.060 indefinitely from all ministry activities after the elders learned from Lawson that he had been

00:11:24.400 involved in an inappropriate relationship with a woman. Phil Johnson, then the executive director

00:11:30.980 of Grace to You, an elder at John MacArthur's Grace Community Church, subsequently said that

00:11:36.600 Lawson had been involved in a five-year relationship with a woman in her late 20s. Lawson was 73 when

00:11:42.240 the scandal became public. Johnson described the relationship as having strong romantic overtones.

00:11:47.780 So that's according to the Christian Post. As I said in the beginning, there is some confusion

00:11:51.920 about whether or not there is a sexual aspect of this. Some people close to the situation said,

00:11:57.700 no, this was not sexual. Others who knew Lawson and knew more about the situation

00:12:03.800 suggested that there may have been. Regardless, it was more than platonic. It wasn't just

00:12:10.960 mentorship. And by the way, I don't think a man should be mentoring a young woman. I just don't

00:12:16.540 think so. But it seemed to be much deeper of a connection than just a casual like, hey, I'm your

00:12:24.100 pastor. I know your family. Keep strong in the faith kind of appropriate friendship. There was

00:12:30.340 texting. There was phone calling. There were just deep aspects to this relationship, at the very

00:12:36.140 least that were inappropriate. So Trinity's initial statement simply said that Lawson had

00:12:40.840 informed the elders about the relationship, but then Phil Johnson subsequently said that the

00:12:45.120 woman's father had discovered the relationship and confronted Lawson, which actually forced

00:12:50.800 Stephen Lawson to disclose to church leadership. And then we say that Johnson said that Lawson

00:12:56.740 and the woman maintained this, that there's no literal fornication. Like we're getting into

00:13:02.480 technicalities i mean you could break down each word like what does that mean literal

00:13:06.560 pornication was involved and so they maintained that there was no sexual aspect of it but then

00:13:11.920 as i said there was a longtime friend of lawson clint archer who said this according to the

00:13:18.720 christian post said um lawson's relationship with the young woman was one of acquaintance

00:13:24.300 and then friendship for approximately five years was not one of his sexual nature until very shortly

00:13:29.100 before it was exposed after his adultery was discovered lost and confessed his sin to the

00:13:34.680 elders of his church and to his family all right so there's a little bit of a he said she said

00:13:42.220 going on there which is very unfortunate um the permanent disqualification question there are

00:13:49.540 some people who believe look if you can be forgiven of any sin you could be restored to

00:13:54.760 any station but it doesn't seem like the bible actually gives that option so while this is a

00:14:00.600 debate it doesn't seem debatable according to the word of god for example if you read first timothy

00:14:05.660 3 2 and 7 therefore an overseer must be above reproach the husband of one wife sober-minded

00:14:12.820 self-controlled respectable hospitable able to teach moreover he must be well thought of by

00:14:18.080 outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace into a snare of the devil so it doesn't say there

00:14:24.740 that you can't be forgiven by god if you are not sober minded or if you lose self-control if you

00:14:31.340 do something that's not respectable if you are inhospitable in some way but we're not talking

00:14:36.660 about just the average christian we're saying no there are special qualifications for an overseer

00:14:42.220 for a leader of the church you have to be above reproach that there could not even be possibly

00:14:48.800 something that someone would see in your life and be able to accuse you of something evil now

00:14:54.660 obviously people could just totally maliciously fabricate something even if you are living in a

00:14:59.800 way that's above reproach but an overseer's life should be so incredibly in the light that if

00:15:07.400 If someone accused them of something, no one else would be able to say, well, you know what?

00:15:11.520 There is like this big part of his life that I don't know anything about.

00:15:14.880 Or, yeah, that was kind of sketchy that I saw him with that woman.

00:15:18.360 Maybe the overseer has a good explanation for it, but that's what it means to be above reproach,

00:15:22.560 that you shouldn't have to have an explanation for any part of your life or behavior.

00:15:26.780 You might think that's strict, but that's the word of God.

00:15:29.700 And I think that is God's love and protection of the flock, too, that he places that high standard on the overseers.

00:15:36.160 In 2025, Pastor Clint Archer reported that Lawson was fully aware that he is permanently disqualified from ministry, so I would say that's good, that awareness, and did not believe he could be restored to a teaching or ministry position requiring the biblical qualifications of an elder.

00:15:53.680 You have Nathan Boosnitz, the Master's Seminary's Executive Vice President and Provost, told faculty and students that Lawson had failed to uphold the biblical qualifications for elders.

00:16:03.840 he's no longer above reproach he's permanently disqualified you had others saying the same

00:16:09.680 lawson was silent about this for several months okay so i thought that that was a little strange

00:16:16.580 at the time that you had one passion his organization putting out a statement you had

00:16:22.640 um i believe it was master seminary also put out a statement that of course trinity bible church

00:16:28.100 put out a statement which we dissected at the time we don't have time to get into all of that but

00:16:33.520 I love dissecting press releases and PR statements because they're always technically true.

00:16:40.860 But if you break down each word, there's typically some kind of subliminal message going on there.

00:16:46.620 So you can go back and listen to those episodes if you're more interested in their statements.

00:16:50.440 But Lawson didn't say anything until March 2025.

00:16:54.200 And then he said this,

00:16:55.360 I have sinned grievously against the Lord, against my wife, my family, and against countless numbers of you

00:17:00.140 by having a simple relationship with a woman not my wife so you know it was a little later than i

00:17:06.580 think that he owed those who had you know paid money to his ministry i'm not saying that he is

00:17:12.800 beholden to social media but because he was a public figure and he did use social media he had

00:17:18.260 this public platform i do think that you're obligated to say something and he eventually did

00:17:22.840 and it's true he did sin grievously in this way and i'm glad that he was able to confess that and

00:17:28.940 of course the prayer that all of us have is true repentance and restoration reconciliation to the

00:17:36.420 lord that the lord would guide him heal him restore him also restore their marriage we don't really

00:17:42.240 know exactly what went down between lawson and his wife after that but we pray that the grace of god

00:17:48.940 is just poured out on both of them that god would work a miracle in their lives and their marriage

00:17:54.380 because we know that satan hates marriage and people could argue the technicalities of the

00:17:59.680 bible while his wife would be justified in leaving him but is that god's heart no i believe that

00:18:04.980 god's heart is whenever possible for the husband and the wife to reconcile and to stay together and

00:18:11.800 so that is absolutely what we pray for as well as his children his children's children and the church

00:18:17.500 because the church of God is hurt by something like this, by this kind of hypocrisy. It's not

00:18:24.340 just like the hypocrisy of any old person. The hypocrisy of a church leader who is called to be 0.94

00:18:29.020 above reproach is worse in a lot of ways. It is because of its impact. So now he's written this 0.94

00:18:36.340 book. This book called Mercy in the Wilderness. How I Fell and What I Found that has just been

00:18:44.440 released and it is selling for $15 wherever books are sold. And we looked into what it actually says

00:18:52.620 and obviously there are some true things in it, which doesn't surprise me at all. He knows the

00:18:56.940 truth. Like he knows the truth. He knows the truth very well and he can communicate the truth

00:19:01.440 very well. But the question is, should he have written it? Should he have been selling it in

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00:20:36.640 Okay. So some people, I don't know why, but they thought maybe it's a hoax. Like maybe this is AI

00:20:42.980 generated. And maybe some of the reason they thought that is because a couple months ago,

00:20:47.380 there was an announcement that he was speaking at some like Atlanta conference. And it was bizarre.

00:20:54.360 It just like, wasn't really a conference that you would think that Steven Lawson would be

00:20:58.440 preaching out. But then the question was like, maybe he's just trying to get back into the

00:21:01.880 circuit and he's taking whatever speaking offer he is getting but then that ended up not being

00:21:07.060 real i don't know if it was a hoax or it was a mistake or it was really supposed to be like

00:21:10.800 before this whole scandal happened i don't really know so that could be why people are like okay

00:21:15.720 are they just messing with us is this just ai but then phil johnson again we talked about him

00:21:21.720 earlier longtime grace community church elder he confirmed that the book is genuine he wrote on x

00:21:27.360 however, that Lawson is not going to gain any respect or trust from those whom he betrayed

00:21:32.480 by thrusting himself back into the public discussion by peddling a $15 book subtitled

00:21:37.400 How I Fell and What I Found. Mark Jones, a pastor at Faith Vancouver Presbyterian Church,

00:21:44.520 wrote a review for the site. He said, in my own opinion, I'd prefer he stay silent and serve

00:21:49.220 quietly in his local church by stacking chairs and helping the needy. If such a confession must

00:21:54.200 be written would it not be more powerful coming from a decade of quietly serving and reflecting

00:21:58.860 or would he be forgotten by then and so lack an audience lossing could have written a blog post

00:22:04.040 and left it at that trevor sheets we've had his wife on uh the show before he wrote was uh he said

00:22:12.880 it doesn't seem wise for him to attempt to re-establish himself as a christian figure or

00:22:16.480 leader though him writing this one book doesn't necessarily mean he's doing that however this sin

00:22:21.340 disqualifies him from being a pastor, not from being an author. My own personal opinion too is

00:22:28.140 that it's just too fast. It's just too soon. We are shy of two years and I don't disbelieve that

00:22:35.840 he has learned a lot. When you are humbled that quickly, you fall from the post that has been

00:22:41.680 entrusted to you. You have lots of people who admire you. He had a virtual Bible study that

00:22:47.680 tons of people around the world joined and benefited from, when you fall from that,

00:22:52.300 that is a huge blow to your ego. Even if you had been someone who is humble, you realize how

00:22:59.100 much pride we all struggle with when all of that is taken away from you. You have a loss of identity,

00:23:04.500 a loss of purpose, a loss of income, I imagine. And so I don't doubt that he learned a lot about

00:23:12.980 humility and reliance on the lord and hopefully loving his wife and all of those things but i

00:23:19.580 agree with some of these critics it's just too soon it's just too soon like i want you to be

00:23:26.380 focused on the things of the lord the things of the local church and the things of your marriage

00:23:33.400 and maybe you could say well he is you don't know that he's not doing that and that's true but my

00:23:39.240 opinion is that it's too soon so what does the book actually say mercy in the wilderness how i

00:23:44.780 fell in what i found it's a short book it's a little over 120 pages appears to be self-published

00:23:51.480 but god press is listed as the publisher but i don't know if that is a publishing company it's

00:23:58.640 not associated that we could find with any other books except for lawson's is it a new

00:24:02.720 publishing company is it his publishing company that he is starting with his own book i don't

00:24:08.580 know. Okay, so here are the good parts, I think, of this book. It does appear that he is genuinely

00:24:14.880 repentant. He talks about his sin. He doesn't excuse it. He doesn't push it off on other

00:24:19.860 people. He repeatedly talks about the really bad consequences of his sin and that it's had this

00:24:26.640 awful impact on those in his life, his friends, his family, his followers. He also says that he

00:24:34.860 He was too harsh and insensitive in his preaching and lacked love for those he was addressing.

00:24:41.120 I would not have gathered that from his preaching, so he's confessing something out of his heart.

00:24:45.920 I don't think that people in the Reformed camp would have thought that.

00:24:49.100 But he writes that he emphasized God's holiness much more than his mercy,

00:24:52.520 came down hard on people because it got him a reputation as a fiery preacher,

00:24:56.520 earned him points at conferences and on social media.

00:25:00.460 Okay, well, that's an interesting point.

00:25:02.880 I do think it's important to talk about God's holiness, and we have a lot of people who talk

00:25:07.440 about the mercy of God, which is equally as important, but again, I don't know that I would

00:25:13.220 have thought of him as, you know, some, like he was just a sinner in the hands of an angry God,

00:25:22.420 Jonathan Edwards type preacher. He was just very straightforward, but I guess this experience has

00:25:28.480 showed him okay i needed god to be merciful to me i needed god to be gentle with me and compassionate

00:25:35.540 with me did i show other people that aspect of god's character in my own preaching he said my

00:25:42.940 sin bashing persona was the same on social media whenever i posted something provocative the number

00:25:47.980 of likes and reposts shot up but when i posted something pastoral and encouraging the response

00:25:52.880 was far more tepid this fostered a jarring effect on my words i was becoming more like a prophet of

00:25:58.480 doom than a pastor of grace more like a soldier than a shepherd i would just maybe i don't know

00:26:06.000 if all of you should spend your time listening to his past sermons but it's kind of hard for me

00:26:10.720 to grapple with this description of all of his past sermons i mean i remember the guy sharing

00:26:16.280 the gospel very tenderly many times and i wasn't listening to all of his sermons every single day

00:26:23.140 But I did listen from time to time. So there is something about this that strikes me as odd. Like, who are you speaking to? Like, who are you trying to garner the sympathies of? Maybe I'm being too harsh in my assessment. I am not saying that we shouldn't be talking about the mercy and the love and the grace of God. We absolutely should.

00:26:43.320 but it's interesting how he is kind of retrospectively judging himself now um it's good

00:26:50.720 that he sees the value of mercy of course but i think one of the concerns is that he's maybe

00:26:57.760 over correcting um he lost and warned pastors in extraordinarily strong terms about sexual

00:27:07.340 immorality and there's nothing wrong with what he says here it's not poor 1.00

00:27:11.100 You are the fool of all fools for 15 seconds of gratification to now you're no longer a pastor. 1.00

00:27:26.940 And now you have a job at the drugstore. 1.00

00:27:31.340 Now you're out on the streets.

00:27:34.880 And now you have a paper route.

00:27:37.900 So does the Lord forgive?

00:27:39.880 Of course.

00:27:41.100 but you also forfeit your ministry and that clip does seem to be from some time during his 0.75

00:27:52.080 extramarital relationship with that woman even so it feels very hypocritical but the problem is not

00:27:58.980 that his words were too harsh here it was they were not too harsh like i think we need more

00:28:04.360 preachers being willing to say things like this like hey i know it's gonna feel good when you

00:28:10.640 have that affair when you get attention from that woman. But here's the after effect. And that's

00:28:15.400 exactly what Satan does. He exaggerates the benefits of sin and he downplays the consequences.

00:28:21.560 And I do think one of the rules as a preacher to show you that it's the opposite. The pleasure is

00:28:26.300 very fleeting, but the consequences are huge, not just spiritual, but also temporal, earthly in this

00:28:32.820 life and so i don't like i just am not totally sure about the apology tour about his past sermons

00:28:41.300 if he wanted to say specifically this is what i said and it was wrong because of this that would

00:28:47.260 be one thing to say gosh i shouldn't have been so harsh against sin because i didn't i and this

00:28:53.000 next part i'm kind of adding on because i didn't like that harshness against sin when i sinned

00:28:57.560 myself. I don't know. I'm not sure that that's the right way to go. So I'm glad that he seems

00:29:04.840 to be genuinely repentant. I don't know if the audit on his past sermons is coming from a genuine

00:29:10.720 place or if it's even correct. Now, he does admit the callousness and insensitivity that

00:29:17.000 crept into his marriage really kind of spurred him to have this extramarital relationship. And so

00:29:23.400 it's good that he admits that he wrote an entire chapter chapter eight called neglecting my wife

00:29:28.680 he explains that he had neglected his relationship with his wife for a long time this was a

00:29:33.640 contributing factor to his downfall just didn't continue to pursue her cherish her love her in

00:29:39.440 the way that he should have part of the reason for this he says was his pride he was unwilling

00:29:44.100 to admit there was a problem he writes she asked that we seek help by seeing a marriage counselor

00:29:48.480 But I was too prideful to go. After all, people came to me for counseling, not vice versa. And I think that is a temptation, especially for really any Christian in the public space, but especially a pastor, someone that people look to just assume is above reproach sometimes without even thinking about what their life might be.

00:30:09.280 because this person has such a great handle on the word of God and speaks with such authority,

00:30:13.300 every part of their life must be in line. When really, he might have understood the word of

00:30:18.880 God. He might have also just had a talent, just a knack for communicating the things of God

00:30:24.680 that was more of an intellectual practice and kind of a performance rather than something that

00:30:31.320 was seeping into every area of his life. I think everyone is vulnerable to that 100%,

00:30:36.880 But I think preachers can be incredibly, incredibly vulnerable to that kind of thing.

00:30:43.120 And that's why it's so important to have that accountability structure and to ensure that there are people around those who are in those prominent positions to ensure that they are walking with the Lord in a very real and transparent and open and honest way.

00:31:03.960 Now, here's a sad part of this.

00:31:05.640 I know I said earlier, we don't exactly know what's happening in his marriage.

00:31:09.620 And that is true.

00:31:11.000 But it seems like what we've been able to deduce from his book that he hasn't been able to reunite with his wife.

00:31:17.120 He mentions giving her space and trying to repair relationships, but not being able to mend everything that was broken.

00:31:24.720 And that really breaks my heart.

00:31:27.060 I don't know exactly what that looks like.

00:31:28.540 there was some chatter online about different aspects of their marriage that I won't get into

00:31:33.680 because obviously I can't verify that. But I think that we can just take what he says,

00:31:40.320 that there has been some sort of separation of space given and that that has not changed.

00:31:47.240 And so we need to pray for him and we need to pray for her and we need to pray that God, again,

00:31:52.400 does a miraculous work there. Now, there are some other parts of the book that we found just

00:31:58.400 a little off-putting that to me in my opinion and it's just my personal opinion and we can give

00:32:05.900 personal opinions on this without it being gossip he puts this out publicly okay this is for public

00:32:10.900 consumption and therefore also for public scrutiny and i don't want to be rude i don't want to add to

00:32:17.380 any like slander exaggeration but i am going to tell you like what i think about some parts of

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00:33:38.720 Something that I just felt was a strange juxtaposition. While he is talking about his

00:33:44.980 own pride which is good like we all need to admit our pride every single person on earth has to

00:33:50.320 admit our pride and how it's infected different parts of our lives at some point he does do that

00:33:54.760 but while he is doing that he goes on these kinds of rants listing his credentials he has a chapter

00:34:04.780 called too busy for god and he writes i was preparing too many sermons delivering too many

00:34:08.700 lessons writing too many books i was researching too many subjects i was giving too many lectures

00:34:13.160 I was leading too many Bible studies.

00:34:14.740 I was recording too many podcasts and I was writing too many chapters.

00:34:18.260 I was posting too many social media blurbs.

00:34:20.500 I was writing too many blogs.

00:34:22.020 I was writing too many book endorsements.

00:34:25.180 Now, maybe that sits just fine with you, but to me, it comes across like, look, I was also

00:34:31.660 producing so much.

00:34:33.720 I was just, I was doing so much and giving so much to the world.

00:34:37.260 And maybe he doesn't mean it as an excuse, but it's some, it can kind of come across

00:34:42.720 that way.

00:34:43.160 Like, look, I was doing a lot of things for the Lord, and maybe he says he lost sight,

00:34:47.980 but it just seems like a list of all of the things that he was still producing and putting

00:34:52.680 out into the world.

00:34:53.740 He spends a lot of time in this part of the book emphasizing this.

00:34:58.880 In the following chapter, he says, or it's called Ignoring the Signs.

00:35:02.620 He says, I was the president of an expanding ministry.

00:35:06.220 I had a respected seminary, the dean of its doctoral program, a teaching fellow for an

00:35:10.280 international ministry, author of 33 books, the series editor of a line of biographies,

00:35:14.940 the publisher and contributing writer of a magazine, the speaker of four podcasts,

00:35:19.960 the host and teacher of multiple conferences around the country and overseas. I was leading

00:35:23.060 men's tours overseas. I just finished writing a two-volume, 1,800-page verse-by-verse commentary

00:35:28.200 on Romans. I was doing all this ministry at the same time. Therein lay much of my problem.

00:35:32.380 This was too much of what seemed to be a good thing. Now, you could see that as a humble brag,

00:35:40.280 You could also see it. I'm just like playing devil's advocate when, you know, Paul kind of

00:35:45.320 does the same thing. He's like, look, here's my genealogy. Like, here's my Jewish credentials.

00:35:50.820 I was a Hebrew of Hebrews. I knew all of this stuff. I was a scholar. I was a Pharisee of

00:35:56.220 Pharisees. I'm paraphrasing here. And then, of course, still, he did not know the gospel and

00:36:00.800 he didn't know the truth until Jesus saved him. So you could also argue just to see the other

00:36:05.520 side of this, that that's kind of what Stephen Lawson is doing here. He's listing all of these

00:36:09.900 things but ultimately saying that it didn't really matter um to me it was a little gratuitous

00:36:16.200 it was a lot they went on and on talking about all of the things um that he had accomplished

00:36:21.260 i'm like i think we understand we totally understand like you were you were doing a lot

00:36:25.520 and that's why so many people admired you um he spends a lot of time comparing himself to great

00:36:30.600 men of scripture who fell but later were used by god in chapter five the enemy is me he lists lots

00:36:36.660 of examples of believers in scripture who sinned, but were still used by God. And he says on page

00:36:41.860 30, God still used him despite his disobedience. Later in the book, Lawson returns to this theme

00:36:47.060 in chapter 13. He writes the entire chapter chronicling the similarities between his

00:36:51.680 experience and King David's. And, you know, I think he got that from a lot of people who were

00:36:57.440 saying it at the time. And okay, I do understand that comparison. I think you can compare King

00:37:04.900 David, like with any person of God who falls, there are some similarities there. That seems to

00:37:12.180 me like something that you allow someone else to do and maybe not something that you do yourself

00:37:18.900 because it does seem to elevate you to this special chosen appointed position like David that

00:37:27.660 might not actually be applicable to you. I just think we have to be a little bit careful when

00:37:33.400 we're comparing ourselves when we're inserting ourselves he knows that better than anyone

00:37:37.720 inserting ourselves in our own experiences into the bible rather than just drawing lessons from

00:37:42.900 the bible now maybe he would cobble with that maybe he would say no i'm not doing eisegesis

00:37:47.400 here i'm not trying to compare myself um to david i'm i'm just showing people these are the

00:37:53.900 experiences of people who disobeyed in scripture and here's god's grace on them and here's how he

00:37:58.380 uses them maybe that's the case it comes across to me like a lot of comparison um here's one big

00:38:06.080 thing that bothered us as we were researching this book is that he doesn't exactly address

00:38:13.200 those that he has hurt now he does talk about his wife and he does admit the problems that he had

00:38:19.120 in their marriage and take responsibility there but other than that he doesn't really have a

00:38:24.680 specific address to those that he harmed. I just think if you're going to come out of silence after

00:38:31.400 letting down a lot of people, those people seem to be like the primary audience that you're talking

00:38:37.180 to, right? Like not just not the people who need to be reminded that they like David can commit

00:38:43.240 adultery and then be used by God. Like not all of the people who need to know like who is this

00:38:48.760 lost in person anyway? Like what are all of his credentials? It seems like it should be a letter

00:38:54.240 of contrition and that should be if you're going to break your silence like that's the important

00:38:59.840 thing here if you're going to break your silence for the first time in almost two years the first

00:39:06.180 order of business is a letter of contrition is not an explanation is not i'm not saying that

00:39:12.840 he's justifying it because i don't think he is but you could see how he's saying look i was so

00:39:18.040 so busy and this is kind of what happens when you busy yourself and you're doing really important

00:39:22.060 things, but that's not the first order of business. The first order of business to me

00:39:27.080 is contrition and an attempt at some sort of, I don't even know if I could call it reconciliation

00:39:33.380 if you're talking about two people that didn't actually know each other in person, but just,

00:39:38.820 I guess, just an apology. Just, hey, I am asking for your forgiveness. I am confessing this. I

00:39:45.100 of nothing but humility and nothing but the grace of god do i need and this is just this is what i'm

00:39:52.720 offering not a lengthy list of all of the ways that you are similar to biblical characters just

00:39:58.980 doesn't seem like the right way to break your silence um on page one he writes some of you

00:40:05.200 have already been crushed and burned i pray that this book will encourage you to do what honors

00:40:09.320 god and persevere do not lose heart as long as god is upon his throne you have reason to hope

00:40:13.760 Others may be standing at a crossroads between making a good choice or a disastrous one.

00:40:19.880 I desire that my account will prevent you from making a damaging one.

00:40:24.320 Again, may be a worthy goal.

00:40:26.900 May be a worthy target audience.

00:40:29.280 But not yet.

00:40:31.140 Not yet.

00:40:32.060 Like, you are already trying to get back into ministry.

00:40:35.180 You're already thinking of all of these different people who don't know you,

00:40:39.000 who are totally strangers,

00:40:40.120 who stories that you don't know that you're trying to reach, that you're trying to teach,

00:40:44.460 that you're trying to help. And some of that may be the like sincere heart of a pastor and of a

00:40:51.680 teacher. But I would say you're still disqualified from doing that. Like you don't have the authority

00:40:56.960 to do that yet. That's what I would say. This is still trying to assert yourself authoritatively

00:41:02.140 as a teacher to people that you don't know. You haven't even addressed publicly the people who

00:41:07.060 did feel like they knew you the people who were really really impacted because they were members

00:41:13.160 of trinity bible church um what's absent are any chapters devoted to the people on the other side

00:41:21.220 of the scandal like this the people as i said who trusted him who learned from him who recommended

00:41:26.800 his books or looked to him as an example of christian faithfulness lawson acknowledges that

00:41:32.600 his sin had terrible consequences for other people, but he never speaks directly to that

00:41:37.840 group. And we saw that in the statement that he made initially, too. It just seems like a really

00:41:44.200 big omission. Like most of the people buying this book are likely not pastors on the verge

00:41:50.440 of committing adultery. They're Christians who once respected Steve Lawson, who may have sat

00:41:57.260 under his teaching, literally, and are now trying to make sense of his downfall. And I think the

00:42:03.580 greatest thing, the greatest gift that he could have offered is just, look, I could talk about

00:42:09.720 all the different things, all the things that led up to this happening. But at the end of the day,

00:42:15.400 I sent and it was wrong. And I am so sorry to every person I hurt. Just, I guess, if you want

00:42:22.140 to say just letting y'all know i'm still alive serving the church working on my marriage go on

00:42:28.380 from there if you are going to say anything um but selling a book about your story trying to

00:42:34.940 minister to others it's just not the move yet he could have said something like this to those his

00:42:40.660 former congregants don't let my failure become an excuse for you to walk away from christ

00:42:44.680 don't confuse the faithfulness of the message with the faithfulness of the messenger he could

00:42:50.660 have said i wasn't a faithful messenger the message that i said was correct because it was

00:42:55.540 from the word of god but he's also kind of like apologizing for his message but he never he never

00:43:01.300 says whether in all the things of like oh i was too harsh in my preaching but was it of the word

00:43:05.800 of god were you agreeing with god's word was it you that's too harsh or do you now think the word

00:43:10.680 of god is too harsh because to me when i'm listening he's basing what he's saying on

00:43:15.820 scripture. So what exactly are you apologizing for when you are doing this audit of your past

00:43:23.120 servants? That's just an aside that I just thought of. But that could have been his apology, not the

00:43:27.920 apology for the truth that he spoke that maybe was a little bit too harsh for some people or harsher

00:43:32.600 than what he would have liked to hear. But just an apology for his own faithlessness. He could

00:43:39.820 have said, if something I taught you was true, it was because it came from scripture. He could have

00:43:45.420 said my hypocrisy does not make scripture untrue he could have said anything that i said in the past

00:43:50.120 that was true was only true insofar it aligned with god's word god is perfect and i'm so far

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00:45:12.640 um if lawson is determined to write to the audience of other men pastors elders leaders

00:45:22.160 who might fall he would need to actually give them advice on how to avoid what he did

00:45:26.940 okay that's another big thing he doesn't talk about that he avoids talking about the actual

00:45:34.700 fall and what happened and how it happens like that would be a good instruction manual because

00:45:41.980 the book i mean that's the subtitle how i fell or like what happened he doesn't really talk about

00:45:48.560 what happened like he doesn't talk about that he talks about that he did and that there has been

00:45:54.260 some effect but like he definitely doesn't silence any speculation i just don't think he really

00:45:59.640 wants to talk about that he doesn't want to talk about his sin and how it happened um section one

00:46:06.560 titled how i fell contains the six chapters the first five focused largely on loss and being

00:46:11.260 overworked and overconfident, all those things that we listed. But he doesn't say, okay, this

00:46:17.620 is how I, a grandfather in my seventies, started flirting with a woman in her twenties who lived

00:46:23.000 in another state. He doesn't talk about that. And maybe he thinks he's fueling gossip by talking

00:46:28.320 about that, but actually this is just making people speculate more. You don't talk about the

00:46:34.940 nature of your falling, which that to me just comes across as insincere. Unless you already

00:46:41.860 knew about the scandal, you might have trouble figuring out exactly what went down. He says,

00:46:48.400 the details of my story are not important. Bottom line, I had a sinful relationship with a woman 1.00

00:46:52.100 who was on my life and my life became so decimated that only God could put it back together. 0.99

00:46:58.080 Okay. He says that on page one. How did that happen? It wasn't just because you're busy,

00:47:04.020 right like there's a lot of busy people in the world there's been a lot of busy people throughout

00:47:08.780 history who have not committed adultery and have not been unfaithful to his wife i know

00:47:13.100 that he writes about neglecting his wife in some ways but what was it that enticed you to that

00:47:19.780 like what was it that led you into that temptation what decisions did you specifically make

00:47:25.740 to push away accountability and to push away honesty what rules would you put in place if

00:47:32.160 you could go back he talks about some of that but not really specifically was it the traveling by

00:47:37.600 yourself was it something that you always wanted to do was this the first time that something like

00:47:42.240 this happened and you might say well that's none of our business you wrote a book if it's none of

00:47:46.900 our business don't write books okay don't write books about the scandal unless you are ready to

00:47:52.280 be open and honest he repeatedly refers very vaguely to my sin but he mentions the other woman

00:48:00.020 only one time the truth is that my wrong relationship with another woman would have

00:48:03.760 never occurred if i had maintained a healthy marriage maybe maybe not maybe maybe not i think

00:48:11.480 that there are also people who have a they struggle with their marriage who don't commit adultery and

00:48:17.300 as he knows i mean he's been married longer than i have marriages go through tough seasons they go

00:48:23.480 through difficult seasons because of one or both or just circumstances and i'm not sure that you

00:48:30.660 could say that a healthy marriage would have saved you from making the sin like let's be honest about

00:48:34.820 why people sin ultimately it's because you don't trust the ward it's not because your wife doesn't

00:48:39.540 trust you or you don't trust your wife whatever it's because you don't trust the lord and you

00:48:44.320 don't trust the things that he says about sin and repentance and all of that he only uses this word

00:48:50.960 lust only once he said i had to make a full confession of my sin i had to name it for what

00:48:56.300 it was immorality unfaithfulness betrayal deception lust defiance okay what do you mean

00:49:03.220 i would like to know the words adultery adulterous and sexual never appear in the book so we don't

00:49:08.760 know we don't know if it if he would consider it adultery or if he would consider it sexual

00:49:14.020 the omission matters because lawson presents this book as a warning to other men i don't think he

00:49:20.280 needs to write some kind of like Colleen Hoover novel here. Like we don't need to know everything

00:49:25.160 that went down or every thought that he thought or word that he said, but I do think it's important

00:49:30.240 to know the nature of it. He says, I had always conducted my ministry by the well-known Billy

00:49:36.220 Graham rule. I would never ride in a car with a woman alone. I would not eat a meal alone with 1.00

00:49:39.580 a woman. I would not counsel a woman alone, but the devil lured me into his trap and I was careless.

00:49:45.280 How could I have been so foolish? What'd you do? What part of the rules did you abandon? 0.91

00:49:50.280 I'm not just asking to satiate my own curiosity. I'm actually not very curious. I care in the sense

00:49:57.780 that I think it's important that he's honest, but I don't have some kind of deep curiosity about all

00:50:03.040 the details of their relationship. But if you are trying to guide other men, what to avoid? Okay,

00:50:09.420 what was it? What was the one time that you negotiated and that you said, okay, well,

00:50:15.080 I'm just going to compromise? Did that lead to a series of other compromises? Did it start

00:50:18.880 innocuous? Did it start that you just counseled her because she came to you for advice and then

00:50:23.440 it turned into something romantic because of a connection that you had? Was it just completely

00:50:28.220 like debauched lust? Like, I think it's important if you are going to now put yourself in a position

00:50:34.120 of writing this book and counseling other men for you to tell us what happened, like what was

00:50:40.020 the carelessness so everyone else can avoid it. The problem isn't that Lawson refuses to give the

00:50:46.100 salacious details the problem is that he promises to explain how i fell while skipping that part of

00:50:53.960 the story and you know sometimes that happens sometimes we will title our episodes with

00:50:59.140 something and we're like in my in our memory we're like oh yeah that was like a really prominent part

00:51:04.280 of it and then we'll listen back and we're like actually that wasn't as prominent in the episode

00:51:08.280 as what we thought and so we have to change the title to make sure that it is an accurate description

00:51:12.360 for the whole for the entire episode okay that's one thing when you're moving quickly and you're

00:51:17.980 putting an episode out when you write an entire book and then you look back at the subtitle and

00:51:22.920 you're like i did not do that you changed the subtitle like it's a really big deal he does not

00:51:28.580 talk about how he fell you might think that he did but he didn't and that's another thing with

00:51:33.220 people who are so intellectual and so sophisticated with their language which he very much is like

00:51:38.200 sometimes you are too intellectual for your own good. You end up using a lot of spiritual

00:51:43.480 euphemisms and you don't actually just say the deal. So the question is, is he now coming back

00:51:49.960 into ministry? Like, is this his reintroduction into trying to mentor and counsel and reach

00:51:57.600 young men? Again, that would be a problem based on what we see about overseers. But is that just

00:52:04.300 the local church? Would it be okay for him to start a podcast, for him to write books? And is

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00:53:41.020 Just to kind of wrap this up, we see at the end, he seems to be alluding to the fact that

00:53:47.560 he's not done with ministry. He's talking about when this scandal happened. He said,

00:53:53.260 at one elder's meeting, one of the men walked up to me with a pap in his step, with a bounce

00:53:57.900 in his steps, shook my hand, looked me square in the eyes, and said, God is not finished with you

00:54:03.560 yet. Those words caught me off guard, but gave me some sense of hope for whatever the future might

00:54:09.560 hold. Okay, I don't know. I don't know if I like the sound of that. Stephen Lawson worries me just

00:54:17.200 a little bit. It's true that God is not finished with you yet, in that you are still alive, and

00:54:22.740 you still have breath in your lungs and god promises to complete the good work that he started

00:54:27.460 in all of us and he will do that because he's faithful but i take a back seat like i just don't

00:54:35.480 it doesn't seem to me from reading this book and hearing what we hear that this is that ministry

00:54:43.740 is for you in the future now i don't know i'm not god i'm not claiming to be a prophetess over here

00:54:50.020 But we do know that the position of an overseer, I think you're just permanently disqualified from that. And it's hard for me to see how you would be not functionally trying to be that, like an overseer or have some authority if you come back into ministry at all.

00:55:08.200 Is there a way for you to privately use the gifts that you have to minister within your marriage to your kids, to your grandkids, that has no potential whatsoever to put you back into this place of pride that led you to the place of infidelity?

00:55:26.940 That maybe is what I would consider, and I wouldn't be selling that for $15 a pop.

00:55:34.500 he said having poured god's word into them he's talking about the different men he's been toward

00:55:41.120 for over a decade at a church uh they wanted me to speak to them again they wanted me to tell them

00:55:47.580 what i learned from my fall that's towards the end of the book he writes that he's returned to

00:55:53.120 this church a few times so this was a church in arkansas that he had pastored for 14 years he said

00:55:58.540 i've made a few trips back and they've ministered to me far more than i ever ministered to them

00:56:04.920 so is he trying to say that he's going to go back and preach and pastor i don't know apparently he

00:56:11.440 did say in the beginning that he knows that he's permanently disqualified and that is a good

00:56:15.560 acknowledgement and i my opinion is that he needs to stay there i also think again the word of god

00:56:22.140 next query got to be above reproach and i don't think that you can ever be considered above

00:56:26.340 approach again can you be absolutely forgiven by god totally and i pray again that his marriage

00:56:32.260 would be restored and that they would be healed and that he would know who he is in christ but

00:56:37.940 i don't think having a platform would be good for other people or for him all right that wraps up

00:56:46.660 that story let me know what you think about it if you read his book or if you've read any of the

00:56:50.660 commentary on it um let me know what you think let me know if you benefited from it at all or

00:56:56.060 if you have a totally different perspective than me okay there's one more thing that i wanted to

00:57:00.240 address on um today's episode a lot of you guys have been asking me about this story caleb flynn

00:57:05.820 it feels like we've been doing a lot of true crime lately which is not typically something that we

00:57:09.480 cover when we've got the lindsey clancy and we've got the cornell seven and we also had the death of

00:57:15.040 the pastor's wife that we've been talking about and this is tough and this is why by the way guys

00:57:19.820 i think i i told you about this that after the whole lindsey clancy thing and we covered that

00:57:24.200 so thoroughly i deleted my x app i got off x for a period of time i still am barely on it you can

00:57:31.280 go see my tweets i'm not replying to people i'm not scrolling through like i've tweeted a few times

00:57:36.940 i think in the past couple of weeks about you know some topics that i want to give a thoughtful

00:57:42.020 response to but i'm not scrolling x because it just your algorithm changes depending on what

00:57:48.160 you click on and of course i was clicking on lindsey clancy stuff and so every other tweet

00:57:52.120 is about a mom murdering her kids, and I just can't. It's so sad. You can only take so much of

00:57:58.540 that. People ask me all the time, how do you talk about all of these sad things? Well, I really have

00:58:04.580 to compartmentalize it. I can't let it feed into every area of my life. Of course, having the Holy

00:58:10.960 Spirit and just getting the grace from God to be able to talk about these really tough things is

00:58:15.440 the biggest part of that, and having family and friends in a very normal, joyful life helps a lot

00:58:20.300 too. But sometimes, especially the social media stuff, it does get too much and I just got to

00:58:24.500 take a step back. So as you guys have been asking me about this Caleb Flynn story, I'm like, I don't

00:58:29.520 even know. Like, because I'm not on Twitter, you miss a lot. And I had to dig into this and say,

00:58:34.940 okay, like what exactly is going on? And unfortunately it is similar to the death of

00:58:39.780 the pastor's wife story, but we don't have time to get into all of it. I did want to highlight

00:58:44.520 what some of the victims Ashley Flynn's family said in court over the past few days.

00:58:52.440 So let me give you a little bit of background, not all of the details, but just a summary

00:58:56.580 of what went down and then highlight some of the things that they said that I thought

00:59:00.920 just were really biblically poignant.

00:59:03.600 So Caleb Flynn, 40 years old, was sentenced to life in prison this week without parole

00:59:07.880 for the murder of his wife, Ashley Flynn, 37, schoolteacher, volleyball coach.

00:59:12.680 on october 5th a jury convicted him of murder felonious assaults tampering with evidence and

00:59:17.840 other charges flynn had been a music pastor he briefly appeared on american idol in 2013

00:59:24.020 prosecutors said that and successfully argued that flynn killed ashley because he wanted out

00:59:30.520 of their marriage and he was having an affair he shot her while um she was asleep in their tip

00:59:37.300 city ohio home in february 2026 while their two young daughters were in the house um he was having

00:59:44.720 an affair with a much younger church intern her name was alia botner she met flynn in 2022 when

00:59:51.080 she was 20 um at his church their affair lasted more than a year botner testified that flynn told

00:59:57.420 her he hated his wife and wanted to kill her there was some testimony that i saw when she was

01:00:03.960 when she was in court and she was made to read some of the texts that she had sent him and they 0.64

01:00:11.400 sent back to back and forth and one of the things that aliyah had said to him during their affair

01:00:17.200 was i want to kill her i want to kill her and he also repeated the same sentiment in texts 0.87

01:00:24.820 uh caleb texted her the night before the murder i choose you i'm free actions will come tomorrow 0.99

01:00:32.220 i mean the fact that this loser is still standing up and saying oh no i still maintain my innocence

01:00:40.840 i did not do it i mean this was such an open and shut this is such an open and shut case all of 0.62

01:00:46.680 the evidence was so incredibly damning he tried to disguise the murder as a home invasion did

01:00:52.060 these people not know that like you the law enforcement can read your texts like they're 1.00

01:00:57.040 gonna see your text they're gonna i mean sin makes you stupid sin makes you stupid that's 1.00

01:01:01.920 the principle here, maybe throughout this entire episode. Prosecutors presented significant 1.00

01:01:06.760 circumstantial evidence. Flynn's electronic devices showed he was moving around the house

01:01:11.800 when he claimed he was asleep. Sleeping alibi didn't work. In letters read aloud in court,

01:01:18.180 Flynn's 10 and 12-year-old daughters addressed their father, calling on him to tell the truth,

01:01:24.420 accept the consequences of his actions, and repent to God. Before I play you this, of their

01:01:30.080 daughters 10 and 12 year old girls should never ever have to go through something like this they

01:01:35.680 are about to be left without a biological parent in their life because of sin because of the

01:01:42.660 disgusting nature of their father's choices because of the lust and the pride and everything

01:01:47.780 that leads you to make these decisions now these 10 and 12 year old girls are left without their

01:01:52.440 mom that they loved and now will be left without their dad and also just an fyi these letters are

01:01:57.540 not being read by the daughters. They're being read by a woman. These are letters that they wrote

01:02:04.600 or a letter that they wrote their dad that someone else is reading on their behalf in court.

01:02:09.180 Dear Caleb, this is your daughter, Alyssa. I love you deeply with all my heart. And it's sad

01:02:18.860 that you can't love anyone but yourself. I wish that you could come to understand that actions

01:02:25.060 have consequences and you have a lot to pay. So please, you have already caused so much pain

01:02:32.820 to your family and the world. The least you could do is tell everyone you did it

01:02:40.080 and receive your outcome. Also, please repent to God, the one who created you.

01:02:47.240 your time isn't over oh that those last lines are from a place of love and grace from his

01:02:56.000 daughters like they want their dad to be restored to god they want his repentance because they want

01:03:02.500 him to be forgiven they don't want him to go to hell it's like that is love like they are hurt

01:03:07.600 but he's saying they're saying look you were made by god and you can still be restored to him if you

01:03:13.640 repent those are wise girls obviously there was a lot going on in their home but the holy spirit

01:03:20.140 has filled them and protect them just pray for those girls pray for all kids that have dealt

01:03:25.400 with something like that that god would just supernaturally protect them and guide them and

01:03:29.000 give them wisdom and strength to put grace on their life ashley flint's the victim's parents

01:03:34.560 told caleb in court they forgave him but then asked the judge for the maximum sentence

01:03:39.240 because they desired absolute earthly justice for Ashley.

01:03:43.780 This is very important.

01:03:45.580 Stop three.

01:03:46.580 Jesus tells us that if we want to be forgiven of our sins,

01:03:50.520 we must forgive others their sins.

01:03:52.900 And I want you to know that Jill, myself,

01:03:57.100 and our whole entire family that's here and everywhere,

01:04:00.420 we forgive you for taking Ashley's life

01:04:04.820 and also for what you have done to all of us.

01:04:07.540 we will not let anger or bitterness consume the wonderful memory of ash your honor when we

01:04:15.260 while we choose forgiveness for our own hearts we still desire absolute justice for ashley

01:04:21.740 because of the violent nature of her murder compounded by a lack of responsibility

01:04:27.820 confession or remorse we as a family ask you to sentence him to the fullest extent of the law

01:04:34.240 so there's a whole conversation in there to be had about forgiveness is forgiveness necessary

01:04:40.080 when the forgiveness has not been sought we had that conversation with alisa childers on my show

01:04:46.440 that you can go back and listen to but what they're communicating and is 100 correct they're

01:04:52.820 releasing bitterness they're releasing malice they're saying i don't own this anymore i'm not

01:04:58.140 holding this. I'm not holding this burden. And I want you to repent. And I want you to be

01:05:04.200 reconciled to God. At the same time, you need to be punished by the law. The law was invented by

01:05:11.420 God. The government was invented by God. The government's responsibility to execute the law

01:05:16.980 and execute murders, by the way, was invented by God. People were very upset by what I said

01:05:23.820 about Krista Pike in my defense of the death penalty for murder. I mean, I'm going to be

01:05:30.160 standing 10 toes down on that because I agree with God. I agree with God in Genesis 9. And even

01:05:36.420 though this person is not getting the death penalty, which actually is unjust, it's unjust

01:05:40.680 that he's not getting the death penalty because God says it even before the establishment of

01:05:45.700 Israel, before the establishment of ancient Israel's law, he says that the death penalty is

01:05:53.300 the due punishment for murder because of a reason it's still true today man is made in god's image

01:05:59.300 that is why he demands the death penalty for murder it's not because he's cool but because

01:06:03.320 human life matters so much that the only proportionate punishment for intentionally

01:06:08.000 murdering an innocent person is death yourself that's how much god cares about this that's what

01:06:13.640 a big huge deal this is so the injustice that's happening is not that he's going to prison for

01:06:19.580 too long but then he's not giving the death penalty but since this was the max sentence that

01:06:24.140 could have been given that's what they're asking for and they're right about that when jesus is

01:06:29.800 talking about turning the other cheek when we read vengeance is mine says the lord i will repent

01:06:35.080 when we read that we aren't supposed to do the whole eye for an eye thing anymore

01:06:41.140 he is not talking to the government jesus is not talking to the state he's not saying

01:06:46.340 we shouldn't have any earthly justice anymore. By that logic, we shouldn't have any prisons. We

01:06:50.700 shouldn't have any fines. You shouldn't have any speeding tickets. You shouldn't have any

01:06:54.020 punishment whatsoever because, oh, we're just supposed to give, forgive. And we're just supposed

01:06:58.160 to give grace because that's what God calls us to do. Or Jesus is talking about interpersonal

01:07:02.420 relationships, and he's not talking about the state delegating justice. In Romans 13, we read

01:07:09.560 that the government does not bear the sword in vain, that the government was instituted by God

01:07:15.420 to punish the wrongdoer that kind of order is good for people it's good for societies it's good

01:07:21.000 for countries um as i said flynn continued to deny ashley at sentencing he said i stand here

01:07:27.680 before god who is my ultimate judge i am not lying when i say i did not kill my wife well

01:07:33.720 the jury is no longer out on that one they don't believe you um and so he will be punished for this

01:07:40.800 not enough in my estimation but continue to pray for these victims all right y'all i don't usually

01:07:48.300 do this at the end of wednesday's episodes but i feel like with all this darkness i do need to

01:07:52.660 remind you that god's eternal plan of redemption is going off without a hitch and that he's not

01:07:57.460 doing nothing about the evil that goes on in the world that he's coming back and his wrath is

01:08:01.220 kindling and he is going to take vengeance for his people and he cares about the shedding of

01:08:07.680 innocent blood he cares about it so much that he is going to do away with it forever and ever and

01:08:13.280 jesus will rule in perfect peace he's coming again one day and he's not coming as a meek baby born in

01:08:18.720 a manger he's coming on riding on the clouds on a horse with a sword coming out of his mouth and a

01:08:24.780 tattoo on his thigh very different picture the messiah that is to come and he is coming to do

01:08:30.360 away with evil and evildoers and the evil one forever and ever and that's what we get to look

01:08:35.420 forward to perfect justice, perfect recompense, and ensure that you were reconciled to God before

01:08:42.040 that. And you can by grace through faith in Christ. That's the free gift that he gives us

01:08:46.140 through Jesus's sacrifice. And that is really good news. I know it's hard to talk about this

01:08:50.560 darkness and the sadness sometimes, but the existence of darkness is sometimes the best

01:08:55.500 and most compelling case for the existence of light. You don't have to convince someone that

01:08:59.500 suffering the evil that bad exists when we talk about some of the stories that we've talked about

01:09:03.200 today but if that exists that is automatically acknowledging that there is a good and evil and

01:09:10.300 if there is good where does it come from and who gets to say we as christians have the answer and

01:09:16.700 so we have to know about some of this darkness going on in the world and have our gospel response

01:09:21.100 to it all right that's all we've got time for today we will be back here on friday

01:09:33.200 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 07, 2026

Ep 1405 ｜ Steven Lawson’s New Book Is Troubling. Here Are My Takeaways

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