Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 254 ｜ Birth Control, IVF & Surrogacy

00:00:00.000 hey guys welcome to relatable today we are talking about the long awaited topic i have probably

00:00:10.640 gotten more questions about the subject that we are discussing today than any other subject ever

00:00:18.480 and that is the issue of birth control ivf surrogacy technology and advancements surrounding

00:00:28.960 conception and the prevention of conception and how we as christians should approach these subjects

00:00:37.760 now the reason why i haven't talked about it until now even though i've been asked about it for

00:00:44.000 two and a half years now isn't because i haven't wanted to talk about it or because i'm scared of

00:00:49.040 talking about it but because it's such a big subject that i wanted to make sure that i was

00:00:55.600 doing it correctly so i've done a lot of research surrounding this topic i've asked a lot of

00:01:01.680 questions and as always i'm not going to be able to fit in every nook and cranny of this topic

00:01:09.120 in this episode this is going to be a longer episode because it is a big topic i even thought

00:01:14.960 about breaking it up into two or three segments but then when i was preparing it i was like you know

00:01:20.240 what people are always asking me to make my podcast episodes longer so i'll just make this one

00:01:25.040 long episode and for those of you who like the short podcast you can break it up and listen to it

00:01:29.680 through throughout the week we're first going to talk about birth control then we'll talk about ivf

00:01:34.880 and then we'll talk about surrogacy i'm going to tell you i'm going to give you the most thorough

00:01:40.160 overview of this that i can but there are so many resources out there so many awesome wonderful

00:01:45.600 biblical resources out there uh about this subject about these topics and i'm not going to be able to

00:01:52.640 like i said cover every perspective on it so i encourage you do your research go out there and

00:01:59.760 read more and if you feel like i really missed the mark and that i wasn't sensitive or loving enough

00:02:05.040 which of course i hope to be as sensitive and as loving as possible special as possible about this

00:02:11.280 uh subject in particular but if you feel like i just missed the mark always feel free to tell me

00:02:17.440 mlms that was a very controversial topic that we tackled on friday but i got a lot of good feedback

00:02:23.040 from you guys and i'm very thankful for that and i hope that this podcast lands the same way although

00:02:28.560 i would say this is probably an even more sensitive topic because i know for a lot of you this hits very

00:02:34.880 close to home you are someone who has used a surrogate you are someone who has used ivf maybe you

00:02:40.800 were conceived from ivf uh you are someone who has used birth control or who is on birth control

00:02:48.640 and you're a little bit nervous going into this podcast episode because you don't know what i'm

00:02:52.480 gonna say and you don't want to be offended which is normal no one wants to be offended my intention is

00:02:58.880 never to offend you it is never to offend people that's never my intention if that happens i i'm really

00:03:06.880 sorry for that my goal as ever is to speak the truth in love and i hope that we can have a conversation

00:03:13.040 about it afterwards first why are we talking about this why are we talking about these subjects besides

00:03:19.920 the fact that a lot of you asked me to talk about these topics why is it important for us as christians

00:03:26.000 especially as christian women to think about these things well over the past few decades these issues

00:03:33.520 have become a more mainstream in our conversations about uh biblical worldview about morals about

00:03:41.120 ethics in general i will say that the catholic church has done a much better job of publicly

00:03:47.360 analyzing and discussing the ethical questions surrounding birth control specifically than the

00:03:52.720 protestant church has but i would say that across the board in general most christian women haven't really

00:03:59.200 considered whether or not birth control or ivf or surrogacy aligned with a biblical worldview i think

00:04:06.320 that we have thought about them traditionally as more neutral topics again i'm not speaking for every

00:04:12.480 christian woman i know a lot of you have been very thoughtful about this for a long time but i think a lot

00:04:17.600 of people especially my age haven't really thought about these topics critically we've thought about them as not

00:04:24.160 necessarily morally good but not necessarily morally bad either now before i go on i will say that i

00:04:30.560 would not listen to this episode if you didn't pick up on this by the the subject matter in the title i would

00:04:36.000 not listen to this episode with young children unless you are willing to have these kinds of conversations with

00:04:42.400 your kids i would not allow them to listen to this episode this is also an episode i mean as are most if

00:04:50.400 not all of my episodes but especially this episode it is targeted for women this is a female centric

00:04:57.680 podcast but particularly this episode and my dad has already vowed that he would not be listening to

00:05:02.800 this episode which i appreciate because we will get into some things that i think a lot of guys will

00:05:07.440 consider tmi um so it wasn't until the last few years that the conversation about uh the potential

00:05:16.160 abortifacient effects of birth control pills became very mainstream which we will get into uh

00:05:22.960 today in just a little bit there were people talking about it of course but only relatively

00:05:28.000 recently have churches started to publicly grapple with the question of whether or not christian women

00:05:34.480 should be taking birth control again probably a lot of organizations and churches that have been tackling

00:05:40.960 that for a long time but a lot of churches that just have been mostly silent on it until the last

00:05:46.800 few years and the same thing is true with ivf i think at first most people simply saw and still

00:05:53.040 see ivf as an amazing scientific development that allowed for couples who struggle with infertility to be

00:05:59.600 able to have children of their own but as we have learned more about the process there are ethical and

00:06:06.480 biblical questions that we have to take a look at and the same goes for surrogacy technology is going

00:06:14.320 to continue to develop when it comes to conception when it comes to pregnancy when it comes to child

00:06:20.400 bearing and the formation of families one of the reasons is because that is just the nature of technology

00:06:28.000 if something can be developed it will eventually be developed without a question of whether or not it is

00:06:34.720 ethically sound or even good for society most people who develop technology are not necessarily bound

00:06:43.040 at least in their work by a biblical ethic and they don't have a biblical world view of humanity at least

00:06:49.760 in their professional life so that means that innovation and progress are not going to be the same just

00:06:55.760 because something is new does not mean that it is going to be good or helpful and unfortunately the world

00:07:03.040 of science and technology right now at least a portion of it have an addiction to novelty and often that

00:07:09.760 novelty comes at the expense of compassion and decency and that can and will be true when it comes to the

00:07:16.640 science surrounding artificial ways of controlling the means of having children now of course as christians

00:07:23.200 we love science we think science is good we think medical advancement is good but we have to be

00:07:29.360 willing to ask tough questions every time there is a new medical innovation that claims to be able to

00:07:37.760 improve upon or completely change any kind of natural process we just have to be able to take a look at

00:07:44.400 it and to critically think about it from a biblical perspective now the second reason we know that this

00:07:51.040 technology will continue to develop is because it both drives and responds to social changes which have

00:07:58.320 occurred extremely rapidly especially over the past 10 to 15 years what i mean by that is that the

00:08:05.280 redefining of the family has shifted the focus of many and science in the science surrounding

00:08:12.560 conception for all of history so millennia human beings and every living being for that matter have

00:08:19.200 procreated via male and female coming together doing their thing and making offspring that very simple

00:08:27.600 biological fact becomes problematic for people or a society who decides that we don't have to fit that

00:08:36.240 criteria for baby making or starting a family so today two men want a baby two women want a baby a

00:08:42.960 single woman or a single man wants a baby they don't want to adopt they want a baby that shares one of their dna

00:08:49.840 so biology dictates that there must be some means even an artificial means to make that happen

00:08:57.440 absent actual sex between a male and a female and we as a society today 2020 in the united states have

00:09:05.760 accepted this and we applaud that we think that it's wonderful that science allows for two men or two

00:09:11.360 women to have a baby with one of their dna of course we don't bother to ask at all whether or not

00:09:17.440 altering the family makeup that has existed for all of human history will have any kind of negative impact

00:09:23.760 on children or society we don't bother to ask whether or not it's ethical or moral to purposely

00:09:30.960 ensure that a child doesn't have their biological mom or dad or whether or not it affects their

00:09:36.720 psychological well-being we don't ask those questions because as with so many things today we have largely

00:09:44.800 as a society decided that science must must uh succumb to our social cultural and political changes the

00:09:52.960 same is of course true for abortion transgenderism climate change and it certainly is true when it

00:09:59.520 comes to artificial conception and i understand that artificial conception is used for other reasons

00:10:06.000 outside of the restructuring of the traditional family and we will get to that but the point i am making

00:10:11.600 is that the reason we can expect the prevalence of new technology surrounding baby making to grow

00:10:17.920 is because of one the nature of technology and scientific advancement and two the social

00:10:23.920 changes that have occurred and continue to occur in society that make these kinds of innovations so

00:10:30.480 popular and also there is the reason of profit there's a lot of profit to be had when it comes to

00:10:37.760 surrogacy and ivf and things like that so christians for these reasons need to know where we stand on

00:10:44.320 all of this not just when it comes to ivf and surrogacy but also on birth control and children in general

00:10:51.840 so let us lay some groundwork here for the christian to make sure that we are approaching this topic

00:10:58.480 in the right way we will start with the basics of what we know about reproduction in the family as

00:11:05.280 christians from the bible genesis 127 through 28 can't get any more basic than this so god created

00:11:13.920 man in his own image in the image of god he created him male and female he created them and god blessed

00:11:21.440 them and god said to them be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over

00:11:27.920 the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth

00:11:34.480 now you've got a lot of self-identified christians who need to see a chiropractor because of how much

00:11:41.760 they have bent over backwards to complicate and manipulate and get around these very simple

00:11:48.080 straightforward verses we read it's very basic very simple very straightforward that god made man in his

00:11:56.240 image only thing in all creation that gets that distinction so what does that mean in genesis 2 7 we read

00:12:02.880 that god gave life to adam using his very breath so we have an eternal soul unlike any other creature

00:12:09.760 in the universe we have a moral capacity we can communicate with god we have been given dominion

00:12:16.160 over the rest of the earth we have the ability to create societies and establish governments etc human

00:12:22.400 beings all human beings no matter our physical capabilities no matter our our strength our intellectual

00:12:28.640 capacities are made in god's image and are therefore valuable more valuable than any plant or animal

00:12:35.920 we also read that he created them male and female a fact that jesus reiterates in matthew 19 4 this binary

00:12:44.720 the the physical distinctions of male and female that are present not just in our anatomy but in our dna

00:12:51.040 and in how our brains work and our how our how our muscles developed in our hormones we read in this

00:12:57.200 passage was purposefully made by god as a reflection of his image so this complementary distinction between

00:13:04.800 men and women is a spiritual and eternal reality not just a physical and temporal one these two things that we

00:13:12.320 read in these verses that god made us in his image and made us male and female mean that we as christians

00:13:19.760 honor human life above all other life forms and that we honor his creation of male and female both

00:13:26.720 as gender distinctions and as a marriage partnership uh we read that god blessed them

00:13:33.280 and told them to be fruitful and multiply so these people made in god's image male and female

00:13:39.040 are to be together and have children to inhabit and fill the earth and these humans are to subdue the earth

00:13:45.280 to cultivate it to have dominion over it this was god's design his good design his good intention and

00:13:53.120 since the fall when sin entered the world human beings have been trying to subvert this very good

00:14:00.560 and purposeful design now as an aside anyone who says that the traditional family structure is is somehow a

00:14:08.320 modern concept of western imperialism hasn't studied history or read the bible even if you don't believe

00:14:14.720 in the bible it was still written thousands of years ago in the east it's not a western or modern

00:14:19.280 book and we see the establishment of the so-called traditional family in the book of genesis but for

00:14:25.440 those of us who do believe in the bible we look to the bible not just as an ancient text but as the

00:14:31.840 inerrant word of god sufficient for our instruction and a source of wisdom and truth we look to the creation

00:14:39.280 of human beings and its reiteration throughout the biblical canon to show us the inherent value of

00:14:44.800 human life the definition of marriage in the family and the role of human beings that we are supposed to

00:14:51.520 play in creation as responsible stewards of animals and resources and as fillers of the earth with our

00:14:58.800 offspring now that said we also know as christians that not everyone will get married and not everyone will have

00:15:05.680 children single people are no less valuable or any less part of god's good design for the earth in fact

00:15:12.800 paul says in first corinthians 7 28 those who marry will have worldly troubles and i would spare you that

00:15:19.760 so people who marry will necessarily have their energies and focus directed toward their families and

00:15:26.400 single people will have the blessed opportunity to pour out all of their energy into ministry obviously we know

00:15:34.080 that jesus himself wasn't married so certainly we do not believe that marriage or even childbearing is

00:15:40.160 the pinnacle or the point of the christian life these things however are blessings the bible starts with

00:15:47.840 the marriage and ends with the marriage marriage is an earthly reflection of the marriage between christ

00:15:53.840 and the church as ephesians 5 tells us children are a heritage from the lord as psalm 127 3-5 says

00:16:01.440 having children also gives us a very strong sense of what god our father means when he says he loves us

00:16:09.040 it's not exactly the same obviously because we're finite beings and he's infinite and he is love and so

00:16:15.760 his love for us is so much stronger than the love that we have for our children but we at least get a glimpse

00:16:20.880 into that when we have children adopting children shows us a picture of what god means when he says

00:16:27.600 in ephesians 1 5 and galatians 4 5 that he has adopted us into his family through christ so marriage

00:16:35.360 having children adoption all good parts of god's design that also reflect parts of the gospel

00:16:43.840 so christians see marriage as good christians see children and having children as good we see adoption

00:16:51.360 as good we don't see these things as sacrifices that get in the way of our goals because before uh for

00:16:57.680 the christian sacrificial love is the goal we are joyful about and grateful for marriage and children

00:17:04.720 and adoption even if you are not taking part in these things uh they are good because god says they

00:17:11.440 are and has graciously allowed them to reflect spiritual realities that show us more of who god is

00:17:18.960 and his redemptive plan for us the reason it's important to set up this episode in this way to

00:17:26.320 provide a basic biblical baseline is because that perspective shapes how we view some of the relatively

00:17:35.600 new technology surrounding conception and childbearing how christians view the value of life

00:17:41.840 and the intentional structure of the family affect how we see things like birth control ivf

00:17:48.240 and surrogacy so let's start with birth control and before we get into birth control pills we have to

00:17:54.560 talk about the general concept of birth control and ask is it okay for christians to use any form of

00:18:02.240 birth control or what um or what could be better called conception protection let's set aside hormonal birth

00:18:10.560 control options like the pill or iud's for a second since we haven't gotten to that is it okay for christians

00:18:16.880 to use things like condoms natural family planning or other non-hormonal methods to prevent conception

00:18:24.880 my answer to this based on what i have read and researched and i'm just a fallible person with

00:18:31.520 subjective opinions but based on what i've read and researched is that it depends the bible doesn't have much

00:18:38.960 explicitly to say about birth control we know that the story of onan in genesis tells us that the lord

00:18:46.240 put him to death because he withdrew while having sex with tamar but we don't know if it was actually

00:18:53.280 the act that made god angry or if it was the deception behind the actions on him withdrew so he wouldn't have

00:18:59.360 to split his inheritance it's probably the latter but we also know that the bible always talks about

00:19:06.480 children positively as blessings it always talks about not being able to bear children as a sad thing

00:19:13.600 and being with child as a happy thing the bible makes clear that ultimately god is the opener and the

00:19:20.960 closer of the womb so knowing that why do i think the rightness of the use of birth control depends depends

00:19:30.560 on what uh like some things in the christian life that the bible doesn't speak specifically to it depends

00:19:38.880 on the heart now many things in scripture are very explicit and there are some things that are easily

00:19:45.120 implied or deduced by explicit parts of scripture but some things depend on your heart i mean everything

00:19:52.960 has to do with your heart but some things it is important to discern what our heart is behind it because

00:20:00.000 we don't see an explicit directive in scripture i believe from what i can see that forms of birth

00:20:08.880 control is one of those things that we have to look at the heart behind it here's what i've said before

00:20:15.200 about this and i'll say it again if your reasons for not having children if you are married is that kids

00:20:21.520 would be inconvenient to you or you want to travel first or you don't think that you're mature enough even

00:20:27.840 though you're almost 30 years old these are all worldly reasons it's not wrong to want to enjoy time

00:20:34.080 with your husband it's not wrong to want to travel but to put these things in front of exclusively uh to

00:20:41.200 have these as your reasons for not having kids these are worldly reasons these are not biblical reasons

00:20:48.640 this is no different than a non-christian philosophy about having kids they are impediments to your goals

00:20:55.360 and your dreams and your wants you may want them someday but because you uh think that you should

00:21:02.400 do other things first you're going to put them off so you kind of see them as these bothersome burdens

00:21:08.800 at least right now instead of what the bible says that they are which is beneficial blessings for

00:21:14.800 the christian these are not reasons not to have kids to put off kids because you want to do what

00:21:21.200 you want to do and you're afraid that kids will get in the way is a very ironically childish mentality

00:21:27.840 it is a self-centered mentality and my advice would be to pray about this to talk with your husband

00:21:34.960 to examine your heart maybe get godly counsel if you don't want to take it from me that's totally

00:21:40.080 fine i want you to pray about this and to go into the word of god and to talk about this as a couple

00:21:45.920 but from what i can see from the bible uh self-serving and selfish reasons aren't good reasons

00:21:52.000 not to have children i thought this way at one point i did most of us do and we don't even realize

00:21:58.880 it before we have kids but at some point we've all got to ask god to help us come to terms with our own

00:22:05.360 selfishness and immaturity that's just true for all of us i will also add that not having kids because

00:22:11.840 you think that the world is bad and scary well i can completely relate to that fear and have had

00:22:17.680 that fear before that is also a worldly reason not to have children because it disregards god's

00:22:24.880 sovereignty and his amazing ability and willingness to use every generation for his glory and it's uh it

00:22:33.040 fails to realize how much more god loves your child than you do now if those are not your reasons as a

00:22:40.320 married person to put off having kids if say you are a missionary if you have been put in charge of

00:22:47.200 taking care of a very sick relative full-time or caring for a special needs sibling if you just had

00:22:53.200 a baby or one of you is in school you're depending on one small salary you're living in a one bedroom

00:22:58.800 apartment and there's just no way that you would be able to take care of a baby while now or you are

00:23:05.120 completely focused on ministry and that is where you feel god is directing your energy and your

00:23:10.640 focus and your finances for now i do think that there is freedom to exercise discernment here and

00:23:16.960 to put off having children until there is stability or until a new season comes uh the heart behind

00:23:25.680 reasoning like this is that you would be viewing children not as a burden but as a serious responsibility

00:23:32.240 that while you would love to have you're unable to steward it the way that you know that you need to

00:23:38.560 again in any of these situations if you do get pregnant the lord of course will provide for you

00:23:44.960 and that would still be a joyous blessing you will be okay but i do believe that in certain situations

00:23:52.160 it is okay to use wisdom and to use a form of birth control now again pray about this seek godly

00:24:00.880 counsel read your bible come to your own conclusions through the wisdom of god but i can't find biblical

00:24:08.160 evidence that these motivations for deferring childbearing are simple now let us get into the

00:24:16.080 types of birth control specifically hormonal birth control because that's where a lot of the controversy

00:24:22.880 surrounding birth control is so a birth control pill has synthetic estrogen and progesterone i think

00:24:30.800 the synthetic form of progesterone is actually progestin these hormones work together with your

00:24:37.680 natural hormones to do these three things to stop the body from ovulating which means that you cannot

00:24:44.720 get pregnant to thicken the mucus so the sperm can't get to an egg and or to change the lining of

00:24:51.760 the uterus so that if an egg does get fertilized it can't implant into the uterus so just to back up for

00:24:59.440 those who don't know no shame if you don't know how the process works when a woman gets pregnant sperm

00:25:05.440 meets egg a fertilized egg burrows itself in the in the uterine wall that's called implantation and

00:25:12.320 that's where the fertilized egg gets its nourishment to grow and this is where the dilemma lies if birth

00:25:19.600 control pills only stopped ovulation or prevented the sperm from meeting the egg it wouldn't be quite as

00:25:26.480 controversial but because there is always a possibility that the pill isn't stopping ovulation

00:25:32.480 or isn't preventing the sperm from meeting the egg and could be just preventing a fertilized egg

00:25:38.560 from attaching itself to the uterus there arises an ethical or a biblical dilemma and within that dilemma

00:25:47.280 is the question of when life begins do you believe that life begins when the egg is fertilized

00:25:54.480 or when the fertilized egg implants into the uterus well from the best of our knowledge as as christians

00:26:04.000 life begins at fertilization that is when the genetic makeup that determines gender for example occurs

00:26:10.960 that's when unique human dna is present implantation just nurtures or just allows for the nurturing of

00:26:19.120 that unique human being so he can grow it doesn't add dna to him or anything like that so the the creation

00:26:26.480 of a unique human being happens at fertilization not implantation which means that a birth control pill

00:26:33.280 all birth control pills that i know of have abortifacient capabilities since it can stop a fertilized egg from

00:26:43.200 implanting into the uterus now that does not mean that if you have used the pill that you have had an

00:26:50.080 abortion typically typically birth control pills effectively stop ovulation or stop the sperm from

00:26:58.080 meeting the egg which means conception never happened if if those two things are the case but it may not

00:27:05.840 it may allow for fertilization and not implantation and from the best of my knowledge you would never

00:27:12.960 actually know what really happened uh this is also true of the patch uh it's true of an iud it is true

00:27:20.800 of a vaginal ring and plan b which is just like a really strong birth control pill they are different

00:27:27.600 tools that all essentially work the same way they can prevent fertilization they can prevent ovulation

00:27:35.280 they can also make the womb inhospitable for a fertilized egg which according to the biblical

00:27:41.040 perspective of life beginning at fertilization would mean that they are potentially abortive again

00:27:47.520 not always and probably not usually but the potential is there uh you may not have known that i didn't know

00:27:56.720 that until probably last year i didn't know how all of that worked i didn't even know the difference

00:28:02.160 between fertilization and implantation until probably a couple years ago never thought about it never

00:28:08.000 thought about i just didn't know and that's probably true of a lot of you out there too and i certainly

00:28:13.120 don't i can't look down on you or condemn you at all if you didn't know any of that coming into the

00:28:18.000 podcast i didn't we are all told growing up or at least as teenage girls that birth control pills

00:28:24.720 only prevent pregnancy we're very uh we're very rarely fully educated on the subject by our doctors

00:28:33.040 they're promoted as not just effective at stopping conception but also as a fix-all for our hormonal

00:28:41.920 problems and i'll just tell you a little bit of my personal history with birth control pills so when i was

00:28:47.360 in high school like so many other girls that i knew i was prescribed birth control by my doctor because i

00:28:53.760 was a regular i wasn't having sex i was seriously irregular for like two months and she put me on

00:28:59.760 yas which looking back was so stupid but i didn't know i was just naive all my friends by the way

00:29:06.000 most of whom had the same doctor were also put on some kind of birth control for generally the same

00:29:11.600 reason i'm not saying theirs wasn't necessary but it was just kind of fishy my theory is that this

00:29:18.240 doctor assumed that we were all sexually active which none of us were and that she thought that

00:29:23.680 she was actually doing us a favor by finding a reason to put us on birth control uh but i think

00:29:30.400 looking back that it was a very naive and stupid decision on my part so what happened is that this

00:29:36.160 created a sort of hormonal dependency for me on birth control even um because every time i tried to

00:29:43.280 get off birth control my hormones would freak out i'd either be super emotional or my skin would

00:29:48.320 break out so i would just get back on or change pills or something like that probably every year

00:29:53.440 for i don't know six years i would just change pills to figure out you know what would be best for my

00:29:58.800 skin and my hormones and all of that and then i got diagnosed with hypothyroidism so i was taking two

00:30:04.800 pills a day and i was like you know what i'm not doing this this is stupid i don't need a birth control

00:30:10.400 pill so i'm just going to get off of it and endure the pimples and the hormones i'll just figure it

00:30:15.040 out i think that was probably my senior year of college and i haven't been back on since i know

00:30:20.000 this is probably all tmi for some of you out there but when i when i got married i was like you know

00:30:25.520 what we're just gonna have to figure out something else because i am never getting back on birth control

00:30:30.400 and so we're just going to either have to have babies right away or we're gonna have to figure out a

00:30:34.640 different option and this brings up another problem with birth control that i know is really

00:30:38.960 prevalent with other women too it's secondary to its potentially abortive effects but it's that it

00:30:44.480 is uh the fact that taking synthetic hormones can have a very negative effect on our bodies so if you

00:30:52.160 are on these forms of birth control you are not actually having a period when you bleed on birth

00:30:58.160 control that's not a period if the the pill is doing its job of stopping ovulation your period happens

00:31:05.840 when you're not on birth control uh when an egg is released in ovulation and it doesn't get

00:31:12.000 fertilized but if you're not ovulating an egg is not released so your quote period on the pill is

00:31:18.400 actually just your body reacting to the withdrawal of hormones that happens when you start taking those

00:31:23.440 sugar pills at the end of the month it's basically the same result as a period but the same process is not

00:31:29.520 happening um and the female body was made to go through the natural cycle of ovulation of releasing

00:31:36.560 an egg having a period uh then there are going to be if you get out of that natural cycle there are going

00:31:44.400 to be usually some kind of consequences to synthetically altering that now for some people i totally understand

00:31:53.280 birth control pills are used to treat other problems like endometriosis or pcos and they work

00:31:59.680 great for you like you wouldn't know what to do without these birth control pills and i don't see

00:32:04.480 any ethical or biblical dilemma with that at all if you are not using them while you are having sex all

00:32:11.040 medicine has side effects but if you're using it to treat some kind of disorder and it's working

00:32:17.200 then have at it i don't see any biblical problem with that at all um so if you have examined

00:32:22.880 your heart and you feel like it is not wise for you to if you are married you are having sex and you

00:32:30.000 feel like it's not wise for you to have kids right now you truly feel like you are being called to a

00:32:35.280 season where god wants you to focus on something else or it's just not financially feasible at all

00:32:41.680 and you need to prevent conception natural family planning condoms whatever options exist that don't

00:32:48.640 mess with your uterus and your hormones are probably going to be safest as far as ensuring biblical

00:32:55.520 integrity goes again please don't take it solely from me please do your own research and your own

00:33:00.000 reading and praying and counseling about this okay let us move on to ivf which is a little bit simpler a

00:33:08.000 little bit believe it or not but possibly more sensitive and just no i know there's a lot of you

00:33:14.400 out there who have used ivf i am just going to give you the facts and the ethical dilemmas

00:33:20.160 um as they are and i am not condemning you i am not here to try to make you feel bad or delegitimize

00:33:28.560 the process that you went through or the longing that you have gone through to have a child i'm not at all

00:33:33.440 i am just attempting again from a christian perspective to try to understand these ever

00:33:40.560 increasingly these increasingly prevalent issues that we are going to have to grapple with so in

00:33:47.600 vitro fertilization happens when a couple cannot conceive on their own typically it's a pretty extensive

00:33:54.000 process but in short a sperm and an egg are extracted from a man and a woman respectively and brought together

00:34:01.200 and fertilized in a lab in a little dish then a few days later they are placed into the woman where

00:34:08.160 if it is effective the fertilized egg will implant into the uterine wall and the woman will be pregnant

00:34:14.560 there is of course a dilemma that arises with this typically there are multiple eggs that are fertilized

00:34:22.000 to make sure that at least one takes and often there are multiple fertilized eggs implanted into the

00:34:28.880 woman to make sure one takes sometimes multiple fertilized eggs implant and the woman ends up with

00:34:35.360 multiples but the problem is there could be lots of fertilized eggs that are never implanted and instead

00:34:41.840 are left frozen and if we believe as christians that life begins at fertilization as we've already

00:34:48.080 established those are offspring we believe that they are people we believe that they are image bears they are

00:34:55.520 children and if you um bear those children if those are your fertilized eggs then you have a responsibility

00:35:03.280 to them so to the christian destroying the embryos would be abortion and just leaving them behind or

00:35:09.360 paying for them to be frozen indefinitely would be abandonment there is another problem that exists

00:35:15.760 here and hopefully not among christian couples but just in general and that is the way the ivf makes easier

00:35:22.400 eugenics doctors look for the healthiest fertilized eggs which is why some couples actually choose ivf

00:35:30.000 specifically for fear of passing on a genetic disease this will likely get more common as pre-implantation

00:35:37.200 diagnoses get easier there is also the issue of long-term effects for the mother a woman is injected with

00:35:45.200 hormones before the eggs are extracted to make sure that the eggs are ready for the taking medical

00:35:50.960 medical anthropologist diane tober said to the washington post there are quote no known risks

00:35:55.920 to fertility treatments because no one has looked because there's a lot of money in this industry and so

00:36:03.200 a lot of the research in the science is either not going to come out because it's not going to be researched

00:36:08.720 or because it is going to be suppressed uh any time sex and procreation are separated any time

00:36:15.840 the natural hormonal or sexual process is interrupted there will be some sort of consequence and at the

00:36:23.280 very least ethical and biblical questions to ask we will see ivf being used to stray further from god's

00:36:31.120 natural design for example artificial fertilization is being discussed as a method to create a child out of

00:36:37.920 three parents rather than just two we have no idea the consequences of that but again because society at

00:36:44.800 large doesn't believe human beings have intrinsic god-given value as image bearers of god especially

00:36:52.720 babies in the womb and because technology has no moral end point the so-called advancements will keep

00:36:59.600 progressing as long as society dictates i can guarantee there will be dire consequences to this it is simply

00:37:08.320 true that as a rule staying as close as we can to god's natural design mitigates the risk of creating

00:37:16.560 unintended consequences by using a modern reproductive technology to conceive or not conceive now for the christian couple

00:37:25.840 who is considering ivf if it is possible to only fertilize as many eggs as the number of children you plan to have and care for

00:37:34.320 then that does eliminate the dilemma of having all of these frozen embryos that are either going to be

00:37:41.360 destroyed or adopted and as for the personal health risks it may cause as for the question of whether it is

00:37:48.720 biblical to separate sex and procreation i would again encourage you to seek godly wisdom from people

00:37:55.200 who know a lot more about this subject than i do to pray about this and to seek the truth in god's word now

00:38:02.560 moving on to surrogacy surrogacy carries many of the same issues and questions there may there are uh

00:38:11.440 two ways to be a surrogate either a couple hires a surrogate to take the dad's sperm through artificial

00:38:18.800 insemination in the hopes that she gets pregnant then she gives the baby to the couple so the surrogate

00:38:23.520 is the biological mother or the couple does ivf and implants the fertilized egg into the surrogate in

00:38:29.440 the hope that it implants into the uterus so the baby is biologically the couples but is carried by

00:38:36.880 the surrogate we do see the first kind of surrogacy in the bible it was pretty prevalent during that time

00:38:43.200 but it wasn't ordained as righteous and good it caused problems between hagar and sarah and that can

00:38:50.320 still be true today there is an instinctive bond between a mother and their child that is hard to explain

00:38:58.160 if you have not experienced it but there are literally hormones and instincts at work during

00:39:03.920 pregnancy and birth that create this attachment and a fierce protectiveness from a mother toward

00:39:09.920 her baby you've probably heard before like don't mess with the mom bears cubs yes that is true across

00:39:16.560 species but it's more than just a protective instinct for human beings it is the most gut-wrenching heartbreaking

00:39:23.440 love that you have ever felt in your life and all of a sudden when they when they give you that baby

00:39:28.880 when they lay that baby on your chest you know that you would give your life for her a thousand times

00:39:34.400 and you have never felt that kind of protectiveness and love before god made us this way so to take a

00:39:40.480 child away from her biological mother at birth and i'm not talking about cases of adoption where women

00:39:47.840 voluntarily give their babies up for adoption which i'm so thankful to those moms and so thankful to

00:39:52.880 adoptive parents i'm talking about purposely planning to take a baby away from her biological

00:39:59.120 mom um it is to completely disregard the natural bond between a mom and baby and the physical and

00:40:07.040 psychological need that a baby has for her mom when she's born and when she's a baby babies

00:40:13.680 instinctively reach for their moms they instinctively long for their moms they look to their moms for food

00:40:19.520 whether you believe in evolution or creation don't you think the fact that babies come from their moms

00:40:26.000 points to the fact that they need their moms and that purposely taking them away from their moms

00:40:31.200 isn't the best thing for them again i'm not talking about situations of adoption i'm talking about

00:40:36.800 situations of surrogacy now it may be different in cases in which the surrogate is not the biological

00:40:43.920 mom the bond between the baby and the mom won't be the exact same but it'll still be there that woman

00:40:50.560 has still spent nine to ten months feeling that baby grow in her belly sacrificing a lot in those months

00:40:56.480 to nurture that baby still has all the hormones needed to deliver the child and nourish the child

00:41:02.720 after birth which means the instincts and the love and protectiveness is still going to be there at least

00:41:08.560 to a degree and in both cases it is still a a detour away from or even a defiance of the natural order

00:41:18.000 it is still a separation of sex and procreation it is still engaging in something with disregard to the

00:41:24.880 short and long-term effects on both the mom or surrogate and the baby uh remember there is a powerful force

00:41:32.960 force that exists that desperately wants to break up the family we have talked about a book on this

00:41:38.640 podcast before called full surrogacy now by self-proclaimed communist sophie lewis it's a

00:41:44.160 popular book in leftist circles who believes that if you want to have a child you should be forced to

00:41:49.920 use a paid surrogate so that all gestation is actually paid work in order that um that a child could

00:41:58.320 not be claimed to one couple or by one couple but rather belongs to the community or as she argues to

00:42:06.160 themselves so in her words she believes that the cohesion of the traditional family is what

00:42:12.800 holds capitalism together that's part of why she believes this is so important now it shouldn't

00:42:17.280 surprise you that sophie lewis does not have any children of her own so the more she believes we distort

00:42:23.360 the so-called traditional family the more we can make the family look less like the mom and a dad

00:42:30.880 and their two and a half kids the more easy it will be to topple capitalism and western society sorry

00:42:39.040 got stuck for a second and she's right the family is a foundational stone on which western civilization

00:42:46.640 rests the more people uh rely on their families the less they rely on the state and in order for

00:42:52.880 communism to work people must fully rely on the state that's why every communist regime that

00:42:58.800 you've ever read about makes it a priority to a outlaw religion and b recruit children to break

00:43:04.560 up the family read about soviet russia about nazi germany about pol potts cambodia north korea china

00:43:11.360 the breakdown of the family for the indoctrination of children and reliance on the government

00:43:16.320 is always a key part of totalitarianism it is very hard for kids to be indoctrinated

00:43:22.080 if they are under the care and authority of their parents this is a leftist goal it's why

00:43:28.480 planned parenthood says that parents are a quote barrier to service it's why harvard is pushing to

00:43:34.160 ban homeschooling it's why msnbc host melissa harris perry said in a segment that we have to break

00:43:39.840 through our private ideas that kids belong to their parents and instead realize that kids belong to whole

00:43:45.920 communities it's like what hillary clinton said that it takes a village to raise a child newsflash

00:43:51.680 if you didn't already know this the state doesn't care about your kids the state doesn't care what

00:43:56.880 happens to your baby it never will the state doesn't uh carry your baby didn't carry your baby for 10

00:44:03.680 months the state didn't pay forty thousand dollars for you to adopt your baby the state doesn't know that

00:44:09.840 fears unconditional undying love that you feel for your kids you would do anything for your kids the

00:44:15.440 state or the so-called community will not shed a tear for your kid when they deal with heartbreak

00:44:21.680 or bullying or sickness or death so we have an obligation to keep the family intact and keep

00:44:28.720 the family close as close to the natural order as we can get it i don't think that there is any

00:44:35.440 biblical or ethical dilemma with many fertility treatments of course and i don't condemn all cases

00:44:41.600 of ivf it if it is done in a way to preserve all life here is my simple take on what i now know

00:44:50.960 number one christians should avoid any birth control that has the ability to make their womb

00:44:56.720 inhospitable for a fertilized egg so that would include probably all hormonal birth control and i say

00:45:03.200 probably because i like to leave a window open for the possibility of something i just don't know about

00:45:08.560 number two christians should be very careful and prayerful about ivf i don't know that that means

00:45:15.120 that it's completely ruled out i know a lot of people that have so many wonderful kids from ivf

00:45:20.560 i would just say that christians should be very careful and prayerful about ivf christians should

00:45:25.680 probably this is number three christians should probably avoid surrogacy again i say probably because

00:45:32.080 maybe there are extenuating circumstances that i don't know about that i haven't thought about and

00:45:36.560 i'm willing to hear the other side of that i understand the longing for having a baby it is

00:45:42.960 the most natural and maybe the most painful thing in the world and there are like i said fertility

00:45:48.960 treatments that are safe and carry with them little if any ethical or biblical consequences there is

00:45:55.760 also adoption either embryo adoption which i do believe is biblical since there are so many frozen

00:46:01.920 embryos that will be destroyed if they're not adopted or regular adoption there are hundreds of

00:46:07.360 thousands of orphans around the world who are looking for a family and love and i understand that that's

00:46:12.320 expensive but so are these uh so is ivf so is surrogacy i uh i do want to say of course that all babies

00:46:22.560 made uh via ivf or surrogacy are valuable people made in the image of god just like everyone else

00:46:28.720 they're just as valuable as any other human being and if you have used either of these options as a

00:46:34.720 christian your family of course is just as legitimate now as any other family and your

00:46:40.960 relationship with your children is just as wonderful and real and i pray god blesses your family i am not

00:46:47.200 condemning you if you don't agree with me or if you have made a decision that didn't align with this

00:46:52.640 maybe you didn't know maybe you did know and you came to a different conclusion i am not here to

00:46:57.840 condemn you i am here to bring you the best analysis that i possibly can from a biblical world

00:47:03.280 view and i would love to hear from you if you land on this differently than i do what i know is that

00:47:09.360 god's order is good god's creation is good marriage is good sex is good kids are good a modern medicine

00:47:17.440 and science can both be really good i don't think christians by any means should be wholesale opposed

00:47:24.320 to medical advancements i think science is incredible and i'm so thankful for the developments

00:47:29.520 that we get to enjoy today but with every development especially when it comes to the creation

00:47:34.880 or prevention of life we have to be thoughtful and consult our biblical worldview before jumping in

00:47:42.560 okay that's all i've got for us today i'm sure that i will have plenty of feedback and questions from

00:47:47.600 you guys and i look forward to that i will see you guys here on wednesday

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 25, 2020

Ep 254 ｜ Birth Control, IVF & Surrogacy

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